Episode 3 - Daniel Moult

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Hello and welcome back to episode 3, episode 3 already of Chiff Chat, the organ podcast
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with me, Ben Bloor.
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Hope everyone's having a good Wednesday 24th of April 2024.
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And if you're listening to this after that, what's it like living in the future?
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Do we have flying cars yet?
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Do we have flying organs yet?
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Well, if the organs are airborne or sedentary either way, I hope you're having a good day.
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I need to do a bit more planning for these intros.
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Sorry.
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Right.
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Let's begin this week by diving into my Santa sack of emails.
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You might remember that last week I mentioned a restaurant in Arizona where someone had
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the incredible idea to combine pizzas and organs.
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It's called Organ Stop Pizza, which the more I think about it, it really bothers me.
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I can't work out what it means.
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Is it a play on words?
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I mean, I get you eat pizza there and there's a huge theater organ that plays while you
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eat.
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But why organ stop pizza?
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I mean, I know what an organ stop is, but what's that got to do with the?
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I mean, maybe I'm overthinking it.
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I don't know.
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Anyway, one brave soul who calls himself Dan has sent an email all the way from Ontario,
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Canada to podcast@chiffchat.com and says that he's been there.
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He writes, Hi Ben, just starting to get into episode two of the podcast.
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It's brilliant and has changed my life.
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He didn't write that.
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I added that bit in, but that's what he meant to write.
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Regarding organ stop pizza.
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I went back in 2009 when organist Lew Williams was one of the organists there.
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The organ was awesome.
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Pizza was good and the beer was cold as well.
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I'd talked to Lew while I was there and I think nowadays he's retired from playing at
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OSP, but we still do keep in touch.
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I'd highly recommend it.
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It's definitely the place to go if you want to hear some good theatre organ and have some
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pizza as well.
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A friend of mine went there for the second time this year, two years in a row, and he
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liked it both times.
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Well, that sounds like a ringing endorsement to me.
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We definitely need more wholesome mashups of two good things in the world.
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Don't you think?
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Organs and pizzas, harmoniums and flatbreads, pedal pianos and quiche.
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Anyway, I've got another email here on the subject of a game of name that organ stop.
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I played with Richard McVeigh back in episode one a few weeks ago.
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You'll remember that we tried to find a stop name for every letter of the alphabet, but
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we struggled with the letter A. Anyway, here's an email from someone claiming to be called
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Chas.
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Hi Ben, thought I'd help add to the A's for the organ stop list.
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I found myself shouting out loud one of the following stops when you started the list,
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much to the confusion of the joggers who were passing me at the time.
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Can I just interrupt this email and say that I don't endorse going onto the streets and
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shouting organ stop names?
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You might end up frightening people or getting punched.
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Anyway, Chas continues.
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There is an organ in Studio One of Bratislava Radio in Slovakia.
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I can't find out who built it.
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However, there is an Akuta, a four rank mixture stop and also two instances of an Alikvoty,
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Alikvoty, also a mixture stop, one of three ranks and one of five in the pedal.
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Thanks very much for your email, Chas.
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I've heard of an Akuta mixture before, but not the other one.
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Honestly, I don't know where they come up with the names for these things.
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You did pique my interest and I had to look up the Bratislava Radio building.
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It's called the Pyramid and it's an enormous upside down, well pyramid really, it's a really
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weird design for a concert hall.
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Interestingly, I notice it holds the dual accolade of building of the century in its
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native Slovakia, but also one of the top 30 ugliest buildings in the world.
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Perhaps you can have a look and let me know what you think or just send me anything really.
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Do get in touch to podcast@chiffchat.com.
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Today's special guest, much like last week, is a bit of a talker.
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That's all I could do to get a word in edgeways to be honest, but he's incredibly knowledgeable,
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personable, energetic and I think you'll really enjoy today's episode.
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A little reminder that if you like what you hear and you want to support the podcast,
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feel free to chuck us a few quid on Tip Jar.
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You'll find the link in the description.
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I do have a crippling addiction to Pringles, so you can rest safe in the knowledge that
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you'll be funding that.
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Now, I'm not totally sure, but if you squint your ears really hard, you should just about
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be able to make out a podcast.
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Oh yeah, there it is over there in the distance.
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Go on, see if you can catch it.
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Go on.
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Hello, you've made it onto the podcasty bit of the podcast and it's really strange.
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It suddenly feels like there's a lot more energy in the room.
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My guest today has been at the forefront of both performance and teaching in the UK for
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a number of years and he's currently head of organ at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire.
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He's starred in several highly praised documentaries about the organ and has been described as
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one of the finest organists of our time.
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He's possibly the most eccentric man I've ever met and every time I meet him for more
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than about five minutes, I have to go and have a three hour nap.
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Welcome to Chiff Chat, Daniel Moult.
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Thank you, Ben, for the invite.
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Well, thanks for coming in on what's probably one of the coldest days of the year so far.
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How have you been?
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I've been well, thank you.
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Yeah, it's a crazy time of year for us all, but surviving.
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So as you can see, and for the benefit of the listeners, here we are recording this
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in Abbey Road Studios in the same room the Beatles recorded Here Comes the Sun, I think.
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No, of course not.
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No, we're in my pokey old office in a basement in London.
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Let me just say every expense has been spared to make you feel welcome, Dan.
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I appreciate it.
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Thanks.
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I've got a few things to ask you about, but let's start by saying that I've known you
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in several different capacities over my life.
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First of all, as a mentor on various organ courses when I was a teenager, and now later
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on in life as a work colleague.
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You've been on the pedagogical scene for years and years and that's not wanting to make you
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feel old or anything.
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Thank you.
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Well you're failing there
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I'm only saying it because you've surely seen hundreds of kids rise through the ranks over
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the years on organ courses and because of your energy and personality, I mean, I dare
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say a lot of people will have been really inspired to continue their organ studies.
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In terms of your energy, how do you do it?
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What are you on and can I have some?
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I sometimes amaze myself, but I guess like a lot of people who keep themselves busy when
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I crash, I crash.
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I just find myself staring at a wall.
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I think like a lot of musicians, you find the adrenaline, you find something inside
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you that just propelled you through, don't you?
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I think when you're teaching and particularly when you're enthusing people, whether that's
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adult non-professionals or young people, there's an expectation that you're really giving heart
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and soul to it.
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Yeah, I guess it can be tiring.
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And also, you know, sounds terribly American this, but you get something back.
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You know, there is a reward of work of people who will benefit from whatever insight you
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can give and whatever skill you can give.
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And for me, that's just an enormous reward.
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I find it, you know, sort of gives an altruistic buzz to what I do.
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So maybe I'm completely selfish, but...
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Not at all.
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So on that point, I do some teaching myself now and I think teaching makes you as a teacher
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a better performer.
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Definitely.
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Because when a student plays you a piece, you have to connect with their performance,
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assess it, actively engage with technical matters and musical interpretation and provide
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feedback, obviously.
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And I suppose depending on how well the student has performed the piece, it can strengthen
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your own convictions in how you play the piece or...
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And it's really nice when this happens, you can think, oh, maybe I'll reconsider how to
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approach that passage next time I play this.
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Absolutely.
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And I love being, as I'm sure you do, Ben, I love being challenged by students that you're
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teaching something and then suddenly a way that you've seen something that to you seems
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the only way.
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And it's suddenly challenged by somebody playing it differently, maybe an intelligent question
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at the right moment.
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And suddenly, you know, you have to...
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You start to justify some of your own baggage that you've accumulated through the years.
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And I think as musicians, we can all hold on to hobby horses, can't we?
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And the wonderful thing about teaching, particularly perhaps at a more experienced level, is that
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it makes you question a lot of those assumptions, makes you question what you do.
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There's also a slight feeling of hypocrisy as well, I remember the other day.
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Somebody who's played very nicely, but that was just a passage which needed tidied up.
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And I said, no, no, no, no, like this.
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And I went to demonstrate, it's absolute car crash because I've not practiced for two days.
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And that's both a humility check.
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And it's also this realization that, you know, if you are teaching very talented young people
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for the next generation, it's a sort of imperative to keep on top of it yourself, I think.
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No, I mean, when I worked with Edward Higginbottom, he would ask you to do crazy things with transposing
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and score reading and all that kind of stuff.
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But he'd never ask you to do something he couldn't do himself.
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I think that's really important to bear in mind.
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What I thought, I was talking to somebody else about this the other day, interestingly,
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and we're saying at what point when you are regarded in your profession as a sort of elder
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states person, at what point is it OK not to be able to do it yourself and that you
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just act as a great guru?
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I'm looking forward to that day if I ever arrive there.
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So people don't turn up at my concert and say, oh, I see.
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It's all talk.
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So you invited me to teach on an organ course this last summer.
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So I feel like I've come full circle now.
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I mean, I vividly remember the organ courses I attended as a student.
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And it was really interesting being on the other side of the fence.
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I really enjoyed it.
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There are loads of courses out there, but this particular one was run by the RCO, which
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I know you're heavily involved in.
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They put a lot of focus on the keyboard skills aspect of being an organist.
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So transposition, sight reading, score reading, harmonization.
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Why is so much weight given to this aspect?
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And what are the practical benefits of being fluent in these skills, which can often seem
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a bit abstract?
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Yes, and I guess just to come at it from another angle, I mean, the world has changed so much,
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hasn't it?
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Musical world obviously included since those tests were at the core of education.
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Things like transposing, I mean, how easy it is now to run something through Sibelius
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and get it printed out at a different pitch.
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How easy it is to create reductions of things online and so on and so forth.
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And there are times when I wonder whether the skills are in purely practical terms still
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absolutely the essentials perhaps that they were even 40, 50 years ago.
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But I think there's something more important at heart there, which is about general musicianship.
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And I think that even if you have to sweat at those skills, and I did at most of them,
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the very fact that you have a basic competence to transpose and to read a score in a rehearsal
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and to turn a piece of music around very quickly after less than optimal study time, all those
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things the RCO diplomas check, they do make you a better musician.
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And I have to say nowadays, I hardly use any of those skills at all.
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I can't remember the last time I score read in public.
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Yeah, because I don't do very much church work.
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I think they are church cathedral based.
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Well, I was going to say, I think I use those skills on a daily basis.
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That's fantastic.
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And I do think in the profession still they're used a lot.
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I say I personally don't.
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But even though I might never use some of them again, potentially, I don't begrudge
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having gone through that.
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I'm sure you're glad to.
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Because yeah, exactly.
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It's just part of you being a holistic musician.
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Just like the old adage you say to your organ students, yeah, please will you go and listen
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to the Franck Piano Quintet rather than yet another performer playing the Chorales.
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We try and make our students broad, to give them broad frames of reference, don't we?
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And for me, keyboard skills is another side of that.
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And I can't claim I was ever any genius at them.
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I wasn't.
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But I think it's good for all of us to have some level of them to open up our musicianship.
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Right.
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Now, I don't want this conversation to get too boring.
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I'm boring myself, Ben.
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So let's move on.
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But I mean, there may be some people listening to this.
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Unlikely.
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Never know.
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Your mum?
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She might tune in.
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There may be some people listening to this who are in the sixth form.
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And seeing as you've seen first-hand the differences between the conservatoire route and maybe
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an organ scholarship at university, what sort of experiences can people expect from each?
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OK, well, I can obviously speak more confidently with the conservatoire experience.
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I've been heading up the organ department at Birmingham now for just over six years,
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I think it is.
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And I think the two are not mutually exclusive.
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I remember when I was sort of 17, 18, you had to make a choice.
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Did you go to conservatoire?
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Did you go to university to study as a musician?
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And they tended perhaps to attract rather different sorts of musicians.
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Whereas I think now that line, I'm glad to say, has become blurred.
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So now you'll get people who want to go to university but will come to conservatoire
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either in a gap year just to sharpen up on their skills or who will go to conservatoire
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after university to also sharpen up on the skills that they've not had a chance to do
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in situ in an organ scholarship.
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So they offer different things.
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I think because people study for longer now, I think people tend to do both directions,
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don't they?
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People who come to conservatoire instead of university for an undergraduate degree, I
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think also get a very different experience from even 20 or 30 years ago.
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I think academically things are a lot sharper.
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There was always a bit of a sense that conservatoires were for musicians who didn't want to engage
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at all with anything except playing their instrument.
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And they've changed a lot.
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And you're now, I think it's fair to say, all of the UK conservatoires I'm aware of,
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you'll get to a different degree, really good grounding in harmony, counterpoint, basic
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aesthetics, history, and maybe it might not be as extensive as a typical Ivy League university,
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but it will be enough there to give a working musician enough power and muscle to be teaching
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and performing and thinking and editing with confidence.
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And I think the professions change because I think when you look at people in top jobs,
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there are as many conservatoire people as there are university people.
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That's definitely a change, I think, for the better.
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So I think people would hopefully leave conservatoire a really well-rounded musician, even if they
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never stepped foot in the door of the university.
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Because that's our job to do that.
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Well you're doing fantastic work at Birmingham.
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This is by no means an advert for the place, but it's a cracking department.
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You're turning out some brilliant players, you and Nick Wearne.
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And of course, it's an exciting time because you've got some new organs being built.
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Can you tell us?
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I can tell you what I can.
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So yes, so when we moved to the new buildings about five or six years ago.
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Oh, do you still use the Curzon building, the one that looks like a swell box on the
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outside?
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As in the Curzon library?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So all the conservatoire and half of the RCO collection is in Curzon.
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Yeah, so that's fine.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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The building's still there and it's got a better canteen for the conservatoire as well.
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It's not been knocked down for HS2?
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Not yet.
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No HS2, the great upset with HS2 is that they've closed my favourite pub for Woodman.
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I know, it's just by Curzon Street Station, which is where Mendelssohn, when he visited
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Birmingham several times, Mendelssohn loved Birmingham.
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He came about four or five times and his train would have pulled into Curzon Street.
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So every time I walk past I think, wow, there's that very real link with history.
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Yeah, HS2 sort of slowly progressing.
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Whatever you think of the politics of it, it will be good for us at the conservatoire
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because it's less walk.
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So I'm looking forward to that.
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It'll be about seven minutes less walk, which yeah, when you're as emphatic as I am, that's
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important.
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Oh yeah, sorry, New Organs.
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I'm terrible at digression.
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It's going to be the longest, most boring podcast ever with lots of diversions.
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So New Organs, yeah, so when we moved site about five or six years ago, we took with
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us a few practice organs that we had, but we'd always been wanting more significant
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organs.
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And then it was a multi-million pound donation about five years ago, four or five years ago,
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that enabled that.
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So we've got a new Flentrop for Wolfson Organ, which has been opened last year, just settling
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in wonderfully.
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We're about to have a new William Drake organ, which is coming in next year in the spring
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summer.
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That's in an English Romantic style.
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That's at 1920 stops.
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So then we've got a wooden Mean Tone organ for Byrd and Gibbons and Frescobaldi and Rossi
305
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and all those sorts of corners of repertoire.
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Stroking his beard.
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Yes, yes, stroking his beard.
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We'll be asking you to open it Ben.
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That's coming a bit later on in 2024.
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We're getting a new Klop practice organ with a 16 foot sub bass backstage in the practice
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rooms.
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And then finally, we're talking about a symphonic organ, which is going in the main hall, which
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is exciting.
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And that's a very slow burn because we've got structural engineers and acousticians
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and 51 committees.
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And that will be electric, electro-pneumatic action divided either side of a stage, mobile
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console, 50 stops, 32 foot open wood under the stage, I'm hoping, and something sort
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of symphonic.
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Yeah.
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And yeah, so that's in a nutshell what's happening.
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So it's exciting, but busy because all this is on top of the teaching and the usual admin.
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One of my questions was going to be picking the style of a new organ being built in a
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conservatoire that's going to be taught on for decades to come is a massive responsibility,
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but it sounds as if you've got the market sewn up in terms of different styles.
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That's kind.
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I mean, in an ideal world, if space and money were no object, which of course they both
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always are, we'd have 20 different organs.
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We'd have a Ladegast copy, for Brahms and Reubke
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and we'd have
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a Sauer, we'd have a Cavaille-Coll and so the list would go on right down to Spanish baroque but it's trying to make
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intelligent choices so that we can teach and practice a large cross-section of the repertoire
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that's never going to be wholly authentic unless you have twenty-odd organs
333
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but we've given it a lot of thought and I've made sure I've spoken
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to people so that my own preferences if you like, aren't the driving factor.
335
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This has to be something which is future-proof and I've taken a lot of advice.
336
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And yeah, you do feel the weight of responsibility.
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I would hate to think that in 50 years when I'm in my retirement home, if I make it to then...
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...that somebody will be furiously questioning some of my decisions.
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So I hope it's...
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Still on the teaching side of things, part of what you do as well is give talks and workshops about good practice technique
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and coping with nerves, which I know involves mental preparation and breathing exercises.
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Is it breathe in for four and out for six?
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Yes, it's four to six. It's in for four, whole for two, out to six. It's a magic pin code there.
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There's a phrase you use that always... it's always stuck with me.
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It takes seven repetitions to learn a pattern correctly, but 30 repetitions to correct a mistake. Is that really true?
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Yeah, I know. Somebody picked me up on this the other week actually.
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A rather indignant lady. She said, I don't believe it.
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And I said, well, I agree with you that to me as a musician, it feels like more than seven repetitions,
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particularly if you're doing more demanding music.
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And can I just say, listeners, do check out Ben's Chiff Chat on the most difficult organ music.
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Very, very interesting. I did my preparation last night, you see. Got sucked into that.
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And you asked that very interesting question, Ben. What is difficult? Yeah. It's fascinating, isn't it?
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One thing I've learned to say as a teacher, I'll try to avoid saying as a teacher, I might add,
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is this piece is difficult or this is challenging because you put an expectation there.
355
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And I found over the years that we all of us, because we're all wired differently, we find very difficult, different things difficult.
356
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So it's a really... yeah, the use of the language when you teach is so important, so important.
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You can just change somebody's experience, for better or worse, by just being a little bit clumsy with your phraseology.
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So I think teaching is a huge responsibility. So to come back... anyway, sorry, there's another digression.
359
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I hope everyone's still there. Coming back to the seven repetitions, yeah, I think it's more than that in difficult music.
360
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I can believe the 30 repetitions to get rid of a false memory.
361
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And this isn't my statistic, by the way. This was from a neurologist.
362
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It's a very interesting book I've got at home, which I don't understand most of, but it was written by a neurologist who was investigating muscle memory
363
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from a purely scientific viewpoint and did lots of interesting research with his colleagues and came up with that sort of suggestion from his findings.
364
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But it makes the point that I think when we're learning patterns, we try and do everything to be as accurate as possible.
365
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And I say that as somebody who has some pretty dire practices sometimes, but I try and just remind myself of that need to be accurate early on.
366
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Because I think it just saves so much stress further down the road when you're perfecting things and when you eventually come to put them in public.
367
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:11,840
Very quickly, you studied abroad in the Netherlands with Jacques van Oortmerssen. Did you choose to go there because of him or the organs?
368
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It was it was primarily because of Jacques, actually, because I think I'm sure you found this, Ben, in your own career.
369
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There's a very special chemistry sometimes between students and teacher.
370
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And sometimes you'll have even just five minutes of somebody and you think this is absolutely the teacher for me.
371
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And sometimes you'll have the exact opposite as well. And it's such an amalgam of things, isn't it?
372
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It's personal chemistry. I think there's no denying that. Just that purely animal sense of who we get on and who we don't.
373
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It's musical chemistry as well. You know, we all have different musical personalities and some of us gel better with other colleagues whenever for that reason.
374
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It's all sorts of things. And I just remember I was coming to the end of my not terribly happy three years as an organ scholar in Oxford.
375
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And I had an organ lesson in my last few months. I was Jacques, who was visiting as a John Betts fellow.
376
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And I just knew within five minutes, I thought, you are absolutely the teacher for me.
377
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And particularly at that stage where I was, there were just so many Nirvana moments in what he was saying.
378
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And so for me, that was the decision. And to be honest, I think I would have gone regardless of the organs.
379
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You know, the organs were a highlight and they taught me a lot. But it was Jacques teaching, which was very special.
380
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And I think very different from perhaps a lot of the teaching, which was around at that time in the UK.
381
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And I say at that time because I think things have changed and I think teaching has become more emotionally aware.
382
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And I think it's become, to use the buzzword, more student focused.
383
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I think maybe when I were a lad, you know, it was a little bit of an old school, you know, get on with it and very little empathy or advice for critical things like good practice,
384
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how you practice, anxiety, all these universal things that nearly all musicians have to address.
385
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And I found with Jacques, although I'm not saying he had all the answers and he'd be the first to admit that, but he was engaging with things like that.
386
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And perhaps you're just in the tone of how he taught. You know, you would just suddenly see things a different way and just, yeah, performing became a different thing as well.
387
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He was an inspirational teacher and a very sad loss. He went well before his time back in 2015, I think it was, wasn't it?
388
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Brexit, notwithstanding, would studying abroad be something you recommend to young organists?
389
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Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I say to some of the undergraduates at Birmingham, right, you've probably had enough of me.
390
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Now it's time to go off and spread your wings and look abroad.
391
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:48,840
I'm delighted if they stay on, obviously, and do a masters with us and what have you and help the attendance figures.
392
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That's not what we're about. We're about the student. And yes, I would strongly encourage that for some of them.
393
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For some of them, it's not the right move. And some of them also just want to go straight into the profession,
394
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particularly those who've done big gap year cathedral scholarships might just want to go on and do another cathedral scholarship and get on that circuit quickly.
395
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But I do say to them, think, think wisely, because for the sake of one or two years of your life, which in the grand scheme of things is not very much,
396
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actually, that is the time to really absorb lots of ideas, lots of teaching, you know, and you're going to find it difficult if at the age of 30, 35,
397
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you suddenly think I'd really like to have gone and done that.
398
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,840
It's a big, big regret of mine that I never did any study abroad.
399
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:29,840
Is it really, Ben?
400
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,840
Yeah, because I just thought it's a really stupid reason. I just thought I'll miss home too much.
401
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:40,840
I think that's a very human response. And but I always think it's never ultimately too late.
402
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:47,840
And I can think of another professional colleague who I have huge immense respect for, who said exactly the same to me last year.
403
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,840
And he said, you know, I really sorry that I missed out on that particular boat.
404
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:58,840
And I said to him, but you can in a way you come from a stronger position when you're older because you can cherry pick what you do.
405
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,840
You can say, right, I'm going to take that repertoire to that person as a sort of professional session.
406
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,840
And I'm going to go and watch that person teach.
407
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,840
And you can create your own curriculum with the benefits of being a bit older and a bit savvier.
408
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,840
I guess it's harder with time and so on. But, you know, maybe professional development should never stop.
409
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,840
I mean, I'm aware that particularly for my teaching, I need to keep abreast of ideas.
410
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,840
I love watching other people's teaching. I will learn things from that. I have to stay completely open to that.
411
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,840
And I think all of us as musicians, we should obviously never stop learning. It's a cliche, but it's so true.
412
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,840
So, you know, good luck to your thoughts on that.
413
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,840
Let's move on to your glittering Hollywood career.
414
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:49,840
Thank you, darling.
415
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:57,840
You've been involved with Will Fraser at Fugue State Films and recorded loads of documentaries, all of which are very interesting, informative and super high quality.
416
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,840
Not just in the production side of things, but obviously your playing too.
417
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:07,840
There's a fantastic one, which I've got a copy of, but not yet watched with Martin Schmeding about Bach and Expression.
418
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:13,840
But I've recently been dipping into the English organ DVD. Was it fun trekking all over the place?
419
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,840
It was fantastic. It was both exhausting and mad.
420
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And, you know, waking up in another flea-bit hotel to save money and to go something like, I can't remember the exact thing, Liverpool to York to Newcastle or something all in two and a half days.
421
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:36,840
I'm too old now, Ben. I got a big birthday in a couple of weeks and it ain't 40.
422
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,840
So I'm glad I did it when I did before I was too old and knackered and too grey.
423
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,840
Well, you got a trip to Australia out of it.
424
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I got a trip to Oz. We did New Zealand, which I've been to Australia before, but I've not been to New Zealand.
425
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So that was fun. I had a great time.
426
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:59,840
And, oh, yeah, sorry, I have to say for so many highs, I mean, purely, yeah, just the joy of doing it.
427
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:05,840
But also, you know, just incidental things. I had the best ever goat curry in New York. Goat curry.
428
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,840
I can recommend. Just sensational. But it was so strong. You can say it's for goat.
429
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,840
I'm a bit like Kevin, a bit like Kevin Bowyer. But for me, a good curry you don't really taste the meat.
430
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,840
It's just all in the chilli. It was, yeah, I was just hallucinating for days afterwards.
431
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,840
It was a lovely experience and it was a lot of fun.
432
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:27,840
And but I think, yeah, I'm not sure I'd quite have the energy to sort of bring something quite of that scale off again.
433
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,840
You know, it's sort of a younger person's project.
434
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,840
An amazing undertaking. England's often known abroad as the land without music.
435
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:42,840
Organ music is obviously just a subsection of that. But did you find that to be true after your extensive research into the instruments?
436
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,840
No. And what's interesting is I think you find this in other areas culturally as well.
437
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:56,840
Often in England, we're our own worst enemies and that we see our weaknesses, we see our limitations culturally and we almost celebrate them.
438
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:03,840
Whereas where you go, particularly to countries like Germany, Scandinavia, continent and the States and so on.
439
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:09,840
And they love our culture. And I was in Leipzig teaching recently and they all want to play Whitlock.
440
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,840
And they are all, they are all. So, you know, I guess you must get so tired of hearing Whitlock.
441
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,840
You think, well, actually, I've taught Whitlock once in England in the past year.
442
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:28,840
And yet they appreciate the best of our English organ culture in the same way that we'd relish Karg-Elert, that they relish Whitlock,
443
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:34,840
you know, in the same way that we might enjoy Muffat or Froberger, then they enjoy Purcell and Locke.
444
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,840
So there's a lot more open mindedness, I think, outside England.
445
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,840
But I think also I think the next generation are more open to English repertoire as well.
446
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:53,840
I think there is a change. And I did worry actually after Brexit where there was so many not very pleasant sort of nationalistic aspects to Brexit,
447
00:28:53,840 --> 00:29:01,840
whatever your politics on it are, I was worried that there might be a backlash and people would feel embarrassed if you like to celebrate things of Britain.
448
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,840
But it doesn't seem to have dented it. If anything, it's increased, but in a healthy, non-jingoistic way.
449
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,840
I think that's true of English culture generally, I think.
450
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,840
Did you have a favourite organ on that documentary? It's probably the Brompton Oratory, right?
451
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:22,840
Yes. Yes. Brompton Oratory was head and shoulders. And then after that, oh, gosh,
452
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,840
I could do two or three, I think. Sydney Town Hall is just sensational.
453
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:33,840
And with no disrespect to Andrew Post, who is just a fantastic TonMeister, you do have to be in the room.
454
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,840
It's one of those organs that never quite makes it on CD. Some organs are like that, aren't they?
455
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,840
They're just far better in the building. And it's a whole complex of reasons.
456
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,840
Sydney is one of them. It's just fantastic. And they're really proud of it, the Sydneysiders. It's great.
457
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:56,840
They have a really good Town Hall series where all the shoppers and local people and non-specialists come and hear the organ every week,
458
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:06,840
which is just fantastic. That was a highlight. And after that, possibly Truro Cathedral, which is a bit of a cliché.
459
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:12,840
Just a fantastic organ. Oh, the Schulze in Armley as well. Yeah, those are probably the top three.
460
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,840
But it's very subjective. And I mean, even the less exciting organs were wonderful.
461
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,840
I mean, there's not a dud on them. I have had one or two slightly barbed emails saying,
462
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,840
why didn't you come to our church stroke university because we have an XYZ?
463
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:34,840
And it's not just about the best organs. It was about trying to tell a story and trying to find organs that hadn't been altered,
464
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,840
that had a big geographical spread as well so that we didn't look too focused on Southern England.
465
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,840
You know, there were so many aspects that came together that it wasn't just that organ's better as that.
466
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:52,840
It was a whole factor of things. So I apologize for anybody who finds their favourite instrument wasn't there.
467
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,840
Well, it all hangs together really well. I'm always interested in the behind the scenes of these kind of film shoots.
468
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,840
I love the way there has to be a panning shot of you walking into a building or looking out of a window wistfully.
469
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:09,840
Most of the time we're just trying not to wet ourselves with laughter when we do those because it's so studded and it's so artificial.
470
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:16,840
And I guess unless you're a professional actor or presenter and you're doing that sort of thing day in, day out, it just feels terribly artificial.
471
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,840
But it's part of the, as we say, part of the fun of making it. Sometimes when you're doing that stuff, it's just deathly dull.
472
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:28,840
I got very good at walking with a sort of mock serious expression. I can do that very well.
473
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:35,840
You know, when the charades drive on Christmas Day, I might do that in front of the family just for a bit of entertainment, just walking in, you know, locking a door.
474
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,840
Yeah, I'm getting good at that.
475
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,840
We always finish the interview section with a quick fire round.
476
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,840
So, Dan, I'm going to throw a load of questions your way and just tell me the first thing that pops into your head.
477
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,840
Is this career ending stuff, Ben?
478
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,840
Right, here we go. Favourite organ?
479
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,840
Groningen, MartiniKirke.
480
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:12,840
Good choice.
481
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:20,840
Yeah, just, just in close second, folks, is Alkmaar, Lawrence Kirke. But it doesn't quite make it. There we go, that'll upset someone.
482
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,840
Favourite organ composer?
483
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,840
Ah, JS Bach. Yeah, sorry.
484
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,840
Yeah, no one ever says John Stanley.
485
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,840
I do love John Stanley. Yeah, OK, second.
486
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,840
Favourite performer, alive or dead?
487
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:40,840
Ben Bloor goes without saying. Is anybody narcissistic enough to say themselves? I sincerely hope not.
488
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:47,840
No, that is a joke. Please, no, please, please, that is a heavy irony. So just to make that clear.
489
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:56,840
And probably, OK, joking aside, Piet Kee. on balance, not for everything, but just there's partially nostalgia here.
490
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:02,840
I just remember growing up with some of his Bach recordings in my early teens and just being bowled over by the musicianship.
491
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:11,840
And, you know, OK, maybe now we don't think it's the last word in stylistic awareness, but just the force of his musical personality really won me over as a player.
492
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,840
Yeah, well, the next question is favourite recording.
493
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:25,840
Yeah, that's easier. Yeah. So I got one of his Haarlem recordings, which were issued on Chandos, which had sort of things like the big A minor 543 and other such delights on it.
494
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:32,840
And I just found the combination of music, player, organ, it's just captivating stuff. Yeah.
495
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,840
Right. Here's an interesting one. Composer who never composed any organ music, but you wish they had.
496
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,840
The one that springs to mind there is Stravinsky, who famously hated the organ.
497
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:52,840
And I'm a big Stravinsky fan. I went to the ENO's production of Rake's Progress some years ago.
498
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,840
Well, actually, sometimes for pleasure, put on the Rite of Spring.
499
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,840
Very Freudianly revealing. I love listening to so many Symphony of Psalms, Dumbarton.
500
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,840
You know, it's some of my sort of go to listening music just on the day off.
501
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,840
So, yeah, a great shame for him. He had a really real prejudice against the organ.
502
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:20,840
I wonder whether that was a sort of very opaque, rather unwieldy sort of 1920s organ he was encountering in the States at the time.
503
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,840
I wonder if he'd been, you know, his eyes had been opened by the organ revival movement
504
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,840
and by the next generation of players, whether he might have reconsidered, but he didn't.
505
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,840
We did the Stravinsky Mass setting at New College Oxford and all of the wind parts were played on the organ.
506
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,840
It was a miserable experience.
507
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,840
Did you play that for the vocal reduction?
508
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,840
I can't remember. Yeah, I think we did write something down that got in as many parts as possible, but it's not possible to play at all.
509
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:53,840
No, I have played that before, but a really striking piece, very haunting piece, very cool and just not quite what you expect.
510
00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:00,840
And that's the other fascinating Stravinsky, just a man of so many different faces in his lifetime and each of them really compelling as well.
511
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,840
I'd love to meet him, but whether he'd like to meet me, I don't know.
512
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,840
It's quite a strong flavour, I think he was.
513
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,840
Right, next question. Cavaille-Coll or Harrison and Harrison?
514
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,840
Cavaille-Coll.
515
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,840
That was quick. Evensong or Mass?
516
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,840
I have to give an answer, don't I?
517
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,840
I don't feel strongly either way, I suppose, because I'm sort of not particularly liturgically minded.
518
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,840
But for me, Mass, just because of the wealth of huge wealth of music for it.
519
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:35,840
It's not to say there's not some lovely evensong music, but I think the really good evensong music is probably more limited, isn't it?
520
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,840
When you've got the whole of Western civilization.
521
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:39,840
Batten Fourth.
522
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,840
Oh, yeah, that aside, obviously, Watson and E as well.
523
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:43,840
Hey, don't knock Watson and E.
524
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,840
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, little reprimand there.
525
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:47,840
I'm not coming back, clearly.
526
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,840
This is my enjoy this listeners.
527
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,840
This is my only podcast visit.
528
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,840
Widor or Vierne?
529
00:35:53,840 --> 00:36:01,840
As a teacher, Vierne, as a player purely because of various considerations Widor.
530
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,840
So I'm sort of bit schizophrenic.
531
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,840
I think there's wonderful pieces of both.
532
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,840
I think at Vierne at his highest is a really, really fine composer.
533
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:18,840
And I think one of the finest pieces of French music going into 20th century is Vierne's piano quintet.
534
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:19,840
Yeah. And the songs as well.
535
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,840
I just think he's a really high end composer.
536
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,840
I have to say, sadly, rather like Max Reger, I don't think his best stuff's all for the organ.
537
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,840
But I think there's some wonderful stuff for the organ as well.
538
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,840
And Widor, I mean, there's some dross, but there's some mighty fine stuff.
539
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,840
I find Widor is, yeah, it's more audience friendly when you're doing, as is so often the case nowadays,
540
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,840
a sort of accessible town hall star program, which is the bread and butter, I think,
541
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,840
of what organists are increasingly expected to perform in public.
542
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:49,840
Yeah.
543
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,840
Reger or Karg-Elert?
544
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,840
So for my students, Max Reger, unquestionably, because I think he's very important,
545
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,840
to notice a highly significant figure in German organ culture.
546
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:07,840
For me as a performer and listener, Karg-Elert, who I think is a really undersold talent and very interesting talent.
547
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:14,840
And of course, he and Reger fell out massively in Leipzig, having once been sort of drinking partners.
548
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:20,840
And I wonder whether Reger just saw a new kid on the block with sort of cosmopolitan accents
549
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,840
and rather eccentric clothes and perhaps decided to take against him.
550
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,840
But I think Karg-Elert is due a serious renaissance.
551
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,840
And it's slowly happening in Germany at the moment, I think.
552
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,840
And I wonder whether it will hit the shores in due time.
553
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,840
Howells or Stanford?
554
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,840
Stanford. That was easier.
555
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,840
Bach or Messiaen?
556
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,840
Bach, yeah.
557
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,840
You'd be surprised. I've had some interesting answers to that one so far.
558
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:54,840
Again, I'm assuming you're asking just sort of purely personally directed, aren't you?
559
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,840
And then sometimes you have like, you know, your own sort of peccadilloes.
560
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:04,840
And then sometimes as a teacher, you sometimes have to do something that is perhaps not entirely to your taste either.
561
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,840
But in terms of listening, performing, thinking, yeah, always Bach, yeah, always.
562
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,840
And then finally, socks or shoes?
563
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,840
I get more excited. Oh, careful what I say.
564
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,840
I get more excited about socks. Can I rephrase that?
565
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:27,840
I'd say that, yeah, socks are really interesting because you'll often find some really wacky socks as you go about,
566
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,840
whereas shoes are functional.
567
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,840
And maybe it's because I'm the male of a species, but I don't really notice or care about them.
568
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,840
OK. I mean, I was actually talking about sort of playing the organ.
569
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:45,840
I thought it was like a random end of podcast.
570
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,840
Like, oh, let's open this up. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah.
571
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,840
Actually, I remember coming to you for an organ lesson back when I was about 18 and I played something to you in my socks.
572
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,840
And I remember you said, don't come back to me without shoes. And I didn't. I'm really sorry.
573
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,840
What a git. Yeah. I mean, I know you you you're a sock player, aren't you, Ben?
574
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,840
And you play the organ fantastically. So, you know, let's not sort of create dogma about it.
575
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:16,840
Personally, I'd always encourage people to wear shoes as a point of technique, partly to protect the feet.
576
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,840
But I think everyone finds their own roots of things, don't they? And it's his means to an end, isn't it?
577
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:30,840
But I'd always encourage shoes. Having said that, when I practice my delicious digital organ at home, it's not really delicious.
578
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,840
I tend to wear socks or slippers just because the pedal action is very light.
579
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,840
And, you know, the neighbours just said, one or two slightly loaded things in the flat below.
580
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,840
So I know that organ shoes don't go down so well.
581
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:53,840
But if you're practicing at 10 p.m. at night.
582
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,840
Let's move on to our regular item, organ heaven and organ hell.
583
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:24,840
Every week, my guest enthuses about a composer or a piece of music, then chucks another piece right under the bus.
584
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:31,840
My job is to try and play devil's advocate and attempt to understand their views or else try and change them to align with my own.
585
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,840
Although that seldom works very well. We're going to start with heaven.
586
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,840
Dan, you're pretty angelic anyway. So what do you hear in your own head when you walk about on a daily basis?
587
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:49,840
I think the soundtrack to my life when I'm being well behaved, at any rate, is the Bach F Major Toccata 540.
588
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:57,840
I think with nearly everyone, there's personal associations of any favourite piece, aren't there?
589
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:02,840
I remember hearing that as a young boy on a cassette, gosh, showing my age there.
590
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,840
And it just absolutely had me hooked. Just mesmerising everything about it.
591
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,840
Both the imitation at the beginning, the pedal, sailing of the virtuosity.
592
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:20,840
And then just as you sort of feel that you've got into a groove, you completely deflect everything with those flattened bass notes that take you on another ride of a roller coaster.
593
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,840
There was just something I found actually really elating about that.
594
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,840
And it also mystified me as I got older because I started trying to read about it.
595
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:35,840
I think when you feel really emotionally connected to a piece of music, we all want to understand everything about it.
596
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,840
Find out everything about it. And no one actually knows what it's about.
597
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,840
And there's various theories. The Seven Days of Creation is fascinating.
598
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,840
But we just don't know. So it remains an enigma.
599
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,840
I'm also fascinated by the fact that he signs B-A-C-H every time the harmony is diverted.
600
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,840
You know, what personal significance is that within the course of the piece?
601
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,840
Again, there are theories about it. We just don't know.
602
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:07,840
But it just well, for me, I can leave my intellect at the door with the music and just absorb it and just be absolutely thrilled.
603
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,840
I've heard so many different performances of it.
604
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:17,840
I have a very broad view on all sorts of things with it, such as tempo and just pacing and all sorts of things, because I think the music transcends that.
605
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,840
And I think that's it with Bach. You know, it can withstand so many different approaches.
606
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,840
And everybody wants to sort of claim ownership of a certain way of approaching it.
607
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:34,840
I think one of the good things in recent years has become much more open minded and that we can now have a plethora of approaches, which can be completely contradictory.
608
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:40,840
But as long as they want to serve the music and not the musician performing them, then there's room for lots of them.
609
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:50,840
And I find that with 540 as well. It's so many different takes on it in terms of projection, tempo, you know, all sorts of details which will be approached differently.
610
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,840
Right. Well, immediately you've rendered this item moot as I'm meant to dispute your choice and call it rubbish.
611
00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:07,840
But there's no argument with Bach really. I mean, I was talking with a colleague recently and we wondered if the older organists get they tend to play more Bach in recitals just because it takes less time to register than, say, a piece of Howells.
612
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,840
So you can actually spend more time playing the music and less time doing the admin.
613
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,840
It's a really I'm not at that point yet, but I applaud people who do.
614
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:24,840
I suppose so much performing, you know, you feel a sort of moral weight to have a really varied diet.
615
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:33,840
I'm not talking necessarily an eclectic program, but something which you always feel there's an expectation that you're going to be colourful in terms of sounds and in terms of textures.
616
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:41,840
I'm not saying that Bach's not, but I think maybe the times when you can play only Bach in an organ concert are sadly more limited, at least in the UK.
617
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:51,840
It's getting the organ's rhythm as well where you can deliver that one. Well, I suppose it's more it's a more contemporary view of baroque music in general that you play a piece on all one registration.
618
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,840
Do you subscribe to that? Not wholly, no, no.
619
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,840
And I think there's and this is complex.
620
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:04,840
I think there are strong arguments that that might have been a sort of prevailing approach in Bach's own lifetime.
621
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:12,840
But a lot of the the deafness evidence is anecdotal and it's relying on people after Bach's death relaying information as well.
622
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:24,840
I won't bore the listener with the geeky detail, but it's amazing how a lot of our thoughts on that, they're not as concrete as a lot of people shouting about historical performance practice would make you believe.
623
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:31,840
And actually a lot of stuff about things like playing a Bach's Praeludium on one sound.
624
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,840
And it wouldn't stand up in a court of law if you showed the evidence.
625
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,840
And you then of course got playing traditions to bear in mind.
626
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,840
You've got the strength of the musical logic that lots of changes of colour might be distracting.
627
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:57,840
But I think, yeah, I think gone are the days when we can't find creative solutions and thankfully gone are the days when we have to defend it with, you know, a census and a treatise that was pretty thin in the first place.
628
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,840
And people who still do that, but it's not a school of thought I find very creative.
629
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,840
I think it actually sort of stifles people musically as well.
630
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,840
Do you go for the line that we should only play Bach with toes?
631
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:15,840
No, I think again there's evidence that, you know, that it was perhaps a predominantly toes only culture.
632
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,840
But there are so many exceptions even from a Bach student like Kittel.
633
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:26,840
I also think as well that when you're playing an organ, not a Bach's time, we instinctively use heels anyway as part of a technique.
634
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,840
And it can actually get in the way for a lot of players to try and have two different techniques.
635
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:37,840
And if that's at any point hindering your musical communication, then it's putting the pedagogy before the music, isn't it?
636
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:45,840
Yeah, I do like toes only because I think it makes me think like a Gamba player or a Violone player or try to anyway.
637
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,840
So I get a more, you know, a more stylish line that way.
638
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,840
And it's more instinctive on organs of the time, I agree.
639
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:59,840
But I become less and less pedagogical as I get older because it's all means to an end, isn't it?
640
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:07,840
There was an April Fools joke going around a few years ago that some research had been carried out that proved Bach would have been played with all heels.
641
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,840
Who knows?
642
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,840
It's not funny at all, even if you're not an organist.
643
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,840
And even if you are an organist, it's not funny.
644
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:15,840
No, no, no.
645
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:23,840
So yeah, BWV 540, the pedal solo is quite impressive, but I just wonder if it's a bit of a one trick pony.
646
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,840
I confess I don't play it myself, to my great shame.
647
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,840
But if I had to pick gripes with it, I'd say it's a bit overblown.
648
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,840
It certainly does... Yeah, everything's explored, isn't it?
649
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:44,840
I'm sure I could justify other big pieces of Bach which are perhaps more motivically interesting, dare I say, or varied or a little bit tighter structurally.
650
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,840
Structurally, yeah.
651
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,840
So I'm being honest and say I think there's a lot of nostalgia in this as well.
652
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,840
I do think it's a very fine piece of music.
653
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:53,840
It speaks to me.
654
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:54,840
Yeah, it speaks to me.
655
00:46:54,840 --> 00:47:01,840
And I think, OK, maybe it's not, you know, if we're quibbling in the sort of absolute top few of the sort of Bach organ over it.
656
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,840
But yeah, I don't know.
657
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,840
I can't divorce that from my personal associations.
658
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:07,840
Well, here you go.
659
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:14,840
I have a video about my top 10 Bach organ works where I spent far too long editing my own blooming mouth onto a static picture of Bach.
660
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,840
Very quickly, if you had to choose, what would your top three Bach organ pieces be?
661
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:19,840
Top three? Gosh.
662
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,840
OK, so we've established 540. I'm allowed that right?
663
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,840
Is this as a performer or as a listener or both?
664
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,840
Because they're slightly different, aren't they?
665
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:30,840
As a performer.
666
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:31,840
Yeah.
667
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,840
The reason I say that is I love performing 532, the D major, and I don't think it's the strongest piece at all.
668
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,840
I mean, even for young Bach, it's, you know, sort of flimsy moments.
669
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,840
The Spiegelfugue is fascinating.
670
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,840
But the Praeludium is, you know, somebody learning a craft a bit, isn't it?
671
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,840
I mean, Bach sometimes in his younger days wasn't the fully formed product.
672
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,840
So I don't think 532 is one of his most distinguished works, but I love it to play.
673
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,840
And audiences like it, but maybe I'm a risk taker.
674
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,840
So as a performer, that would definitely be up in the top three.
675
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:07,840
And again, thinking as a performer, not a listener, something I've not performed for a while is Sei gegrusset.
676
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,840
Never heard the piece, actually.
677
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,840
And again, very fine.
678
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:17,840
It's not, again, the absolutely stunning art of, you know, the E minor 548, is it?
679
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:22,840
Or even 544 B minor or more mature Leipzig pieces.
680
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:29,840
But perhaps it's the variety of what can be done with the chorale, the beauty of the writing, the succinctness of it.
681
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,840
And again, I always, as a performer, I always have my audiences in mind.
682
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,840
And that's nice because it's digestible chunks, isn't it?
683
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,840
Apart from that penultimate variation, everything's very modest in length.
684
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,840
And you can change colours.
685
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:48,840
So even if you're not playing on an organ, which is brilliant, or that's not brilliant for Bach, you know, there's so many ways you can phone round it.
686
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,840
So it's a bit of a cop-out, isn't it?
687
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,840
But that's purely off the top of my head.
688
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,840
I think they'll be my top three performer ones.
689
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,840
Now, I'm afraid there's been a bit of an administrative error on the part of St Peter and you've ended up in hell.
690
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:16,840
Sorry.
691
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:17,840
I can't, Ben.
692
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,840
This is just, I mean, this is beyond the bounds of believable.
693
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,840
But go on, let's let's run with it for the sake of your podcast.
694
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,840
What's on the boombox down there for you?
695
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:33,840
On St Peter's, on Satan's boombox is Grunenwald.
696
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,840
Grunenwald? OK.
697
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,840
Right, I don't I don't mind admitting I don't know the first thing about Grunenwald.
698
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:45,840
I mean, quite honestly, I thought he was a character from Harry Potter.
699
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,840
Right, I've done, OK.
700
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:48,840
Oh, that's fantastic.
701
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,840
I've done some extensive research.
702
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:56,840
Can I just say that if that wasn't allowed, there's quite a large amount of later Dupre that could equally be playing 24-7.
703
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,840
But let's go with Grunenwald for now.
704
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,840
So I've done some extensive research for all the time my budget allows, which is about seven minutes.
705
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,840
And he was the organist of St Sulpice taking over from Dupre.
706
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,840
He recorded the complete Bach organ works.
707
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,840
And of course, he's got a very large compositional output, including quite a lot of film music.
708
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,840
So what is it about it?
709
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,840
Listen, I'm sure I don't want to upset anybody.
710
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,840
I'm sure as a musician, he was wonderful.
711
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,840
I'm sure as a lovely man is purely the organ compositions I've heard.
712
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,840
I just want to reclaim that bit of my life.
713
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:33,840
So I will I will be asking St Peter for a refund of the 15 minutes or so over my teaching career.
714
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,840
I've heard Grunenwald. Yeah.
715
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:41,840
I listened to a few pieces. One was called Adoratio, which was quite pleasant, actually fairly inoffensive.
716
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,840
And then I found the Sonata for organ, which is in three movements clocking in about 20 minutes.
717
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,840
Did you enjoy that as well? Did you?
718
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,840
Heavy going stuff.
719
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:55,840
I think the problem I had with it was that it was all just a bit nebulous, you know, some interesting ideas in a vacuum for sure.
720
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,840
But on a first listening, I found it really tricky to connect with.
721
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,840
Perhaps I just need to soak it in a bit more.
722
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:08,840
I guess it's you know, it's this line, this particularly sort of French line between improvisation and notation, isn't it?
723
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,840
That's something which might be quite right for the moment.
724
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:20,840
Suddenly, when it gets fleshed out and put down on paper, it's just a little bit patchy in its inspiration.
725
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:26,840
I mean, some people might go so far as to say some people, Ben, might go so far to say something like the Dupre-Symphonie-Passion Exhibit.
726
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:31,840
It's a bit of that, even though it's probably more through composed than improvised, just sort of patchy inspiration.
727
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,840
Things not developed quite as well as they might do.
728
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:41,840
Maybe I'm just a bit German in my sort of taste and thinking, but I just find this constant nebulous of the clouds of things
729
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,840
where you're just meant to be swept along by the French organ colours.
730
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,840
It's musically a bit weak.
731
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:53,840
I also think with stuff like, and it's not just Grunewald, there's other French composers maybe where only organists really enjoy it
732
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:58,840
because it's such a specific sound world and reliance so much on the organ colour.
733
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,840
And if other musicians don't understand or access that, that worries me a little bit.
734
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,840
Getting into the music of cults a bit.
735
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,840
Yes, absolutely.
736
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,840
Perhaps any Grunewald fans in the audience, there must be some, can write in with their suggestions.
737
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:17,840
Please don't send hate mail. I'm very fragile, really.
738
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,840
He's got a degree in architecture.
739
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,840
Has he really? There we go. Fascinating guy.
740
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,840
Well, it does make you think, like, I like to ask this question to organists. If you weren't an organist, what would you be?
741
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,840
Based on childhood thoughts or just generally?
742
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,840
When I was growing up, I really wanted to be a dentist
743
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:43,840
because I was fascinated by the pink mouthwash they gave you to swirl your mouth out at the end.
744
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,840
So I'm not sure I still want to be a dentist.
745
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,840
But if tomorrow I couldn't do anything musically, if I was forbidden from any of that,
746
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,840
there's nothing else really leaps out.
747
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,840
I've always enjoyed writing, but I don't think I'm good enough to write a novel.
748
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,840
But I do enjoy writing as part of my job. If I'm having to write a report or a proposal,
749
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,840
I do enjoy and I enjoy reading good literature as well.
750
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,840
So maybe it's something I'd develop, but I suspect I wouldn't be very good at it.
751
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,840
And whatever skills I might or may not have as a musician, it might be a bit painful to, you know,
752
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,840
try and be a writer and realise that you're not very good.
753
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,840
But maybe I'd give it a whirl.
754
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,840
What about you, Ben? Am I allowed to turn my back? What would you do?
755
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:31,840
I'd probably just take a brisk walk head on into oncoming traffic.
756
00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:00,840
Now, I've been trawling the darkest corners of the internet in organ forums no sane person should have to visit
757
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:05,840
for the most inconsequential and trivial of anecdotes I can form into questions for my guest.
758
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:10,840
That's right, it's the weekly lull in the show that no one looks forward to. It's quiz time.
759
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,840
This is basically like a pub quiz, Dan, but there's no beer or sticky floor.
760
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:21,840
And the questions aren't about Ronaldo or Girls Aloud, but rather about organs.
761
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:22,840
Let's get going.
762
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,840
Number one, you've done extensive research and filming about English organs.
763
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:31,840
I wonder if you know which of the following composers has an organ work as their opus one.
764
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:38,840
A. Kenneth Leighton, B. Herbert Howells or C. Edward Elgar.
765
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,840
That's something that I really feel I should know.
766
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:49,840
And I don't I think it's going to be I'm going to go wild card and say Leighton, even though he wasn't an organist.
767
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:54,840
Great. Well, I've got a bit of a confession to make on this one.
768
00:54:54,840 --> 00:55:01,840
I'll just read you my pre-prepared answer first. Elgar's opus one is a Romance for violin and piano.
769
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:02,840
Yes.
770
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:08,840
His Vespers Voluntaries are Opus 14 and the Sonata is Opus 28.
771
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:13,840
For Leighton, we have to wait until Opus 41 for the Prelude Scherzo and Passacaglia.
772
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:22,840
So the answer, I thought, was Howells, whose very first published organ work is the Sonata No. 1 in C minor, which not many people play.
773
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:23,840
No.
774
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,840
You can tell it's young Howells. It's obviously not quite as refined as the later stuff.
775
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,840
Goes without saying, but all the hallmarks are there.
776
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:31,840
So that was Opus one.
777
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:39,840
Well, five minutes before we started recording, I pulled my copy off the shelf and to my great horror, it said Opus two on the front.
778
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,840
So I'm annoyed with myself about that, but I couldn't find a catalogue of his Opus numbers anywhere online.
779
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,840
So let's just say between you, me and the door post.
780
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,840
It is probably.
781
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,840
Good. All right. Well you got it wrong anyway.
782
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:53,840
Yeah, good.
783
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:54,840
No.
784
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:55,840
Two.
785
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:02,840
In one of your films, you play the oldest playable organ in the UK, the 1744 Renatas Harris in St. Botolph's Aldgate.
786
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:12,840
I'm sorry, Ben. It's the 1680 something organ at Adlington Hall, which I only played briefly because it was behaving really badly on the day, sadly.
787
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:19,840
So we're only able to 16. Yeah, they're about. I'm not sure they know the exact date, but it's post restoration anyway.
788
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:24,840
So sorry. Is that the whole quiz? Is the quiz over? Can I go now?
789
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:25,840
Question two.
790
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:33,840
In one of your films, in one of your films. No, right.
791
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:34,840
Question two.
792
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:40,840
In one of your films, you play the oldest playable organ in the UK, the 1684 Adlington Hall organ.
793
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,840
But what is the oldest playable organ in the world?
794
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:47,840
Oh, it's in Switzerland. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Go on. Yeah, sorry.
795
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:56,840
The Van Covelen organ in Lawrence Kirk in Alkmaar. B, the Basilica of Valere in Zion, Zion, Zion, Switzerland.
796
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:02,840
C, St. Valentine's Church in Kiedrich. Yeah, it's B. B. Yes, that's correct. Not played. Have you?
797
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:08,840
No, I haven't. No. There's a video of Diane Bish playing it, though. It's the joy of music. Joy of Diane Bish.
798
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:15,840
It's on top of a hill in a massive fortified castle. It looks like a Bond villain hideout. It's really impressive.
799
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:21,840
The organ's not totally original. It's got 12 pipes which date back to 1435, which is absolutely incredible.
800
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,840
To think this predates Bach and Byrd and Sweelinck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
801
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:31,840
The Van Covelen organ in Alkmaar is the oldest organ in the Netherlands, dating back to 1511?
802
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:37,840
That is a be exquisite organ. Yeah, do you want to gush about it? Oh, yes, please. I just absolutely adore it.
803
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:43,840
And I remember listening to it the first time I went to Alkmaar, and I think it had just been restored at the time.
804
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:48,840
And I mean, it just fills the room. And you could almost be forgiven for thinking that you were listening to the main organ.
805
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,840
If it's not the fact it doesn't quite have the extra bit of gravity, that it's just sensational.
806
00:57:53,840 --> 00:58:00,840
I played the bridge organ in Christchurch Spitalfields recently, and I found it really eye opening and instructive for early music,
807
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:07,840
but also quite terrifying because the pedal goes down to G below bottom C and everything just feels like it's in the wrong place.
808
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:14,840
Yes. Anyway, there you go. Question three. I feel like we might need a klaxon for this question because I think honestly,
809
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,840
it's the nerdiest question I've ever come up with. In the UK, we love a good open diapason.
810
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:23,840
It's the real roast beef and potatoes type of stop that fills you up. You're not worthy of this.
811
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,840
Which of these organs has the most open diapasons of eight foot pitch?
812
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:34,840
Can I just say I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't know it, because if I do know it, then you know,
813
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,840
what tiny scrap of street cred I might have, just nosedives.
814
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,840
And if I don't know it, then your listeners are going to be equally appalled. So I'm absolutely damned. Let's go for it.
815
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:50,840
The question is open diapasons of eight foot pitch only. So if there's any 16 foot open diapason, it doesn't count.
816
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,840
And it's not just on the Great, it's the whole organ.
817
00:58:53,840 --> 00:59:01,840
So A Durham Cathedral, B Liverpool Anglican Cathedral or C St. Paul's Cathedral.
818
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,840
Now, obviously, you're meant to say Liverpool Cathedral,
819
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,840
of it being the largest or second largest in the UK, whatever it is now.
820
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:16,840
And then you're thinking that St. Paul's Cathedral is probably larger than Durham Cathedral.
821
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:24,840
I'm guessing I don't know Durham well, because St. Paul's has got the dome section, eight foot.
822
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,840
But then that's only one or two opens in the dome.
823
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:35,840
It's fascinating. Actually, Ben, this is an absolute Bobby Dazzler of a question.
824
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:40,840
I think it's a trap because I have a vague recollection, having only played at Durham once 10 years ago or so,
825
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,840
that there are a lot of diapasons on the Great.
826
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:50,840
So there's a family of Arthur Harrison diapasons there. And there's a positive division.
827
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:55,840
I think it's going to be the outsider, which is Durham. And I'm going to surprise everyone.
828
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:56,840
I'm going to go for Durham.
829
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:58,840
Now everyone's switched off.
830
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:03,840
Yeah, that was such a boring answer. I'm so sorry.
831
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,840
Durham has six, two on the Swell, four on the Great.
832
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:12,840
Liverpool, seven, one on the Swell, five on the Great, one on Central.
833
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,840
St. Paul's Cathedral is the winner here with eight.
834
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:16,840
Eight?
835
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,840
Eight, eight foot open diapasons across all the divisions of the organ.
836
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:25,840
Two on the Great, one on the Swell, one on the South Choir, one on the Solo,
837
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,840
two on the fifth manual and one on the West Section.
838
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,840
Oh, of course.
839
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,840
If it's of interest, the Royal Albert Hall and Sydney Town Hall also have seven each.
840
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:40,840
But St. Paul's wins with eight. So it just begs the question really, how many open diapasons is too many?
841
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:42,840
Well, the answer is apparently nine.
842
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:48,840
I just wish this podcast could go on forever because it's just hours of family fun, isn't it?
843
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:50,840
Nearly there.
844
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,840
Question four. You were the organist at Coventry Cathedral for a while.
845
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:55,840
It's obviously a very historic building.
846
01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:00,840
And of course, it was bombed in the Second World War, which destroyed the Father Willis organ that was in there.
847
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:07,840
A new organ was put in by Harrison & Harrison in 1962, which is a very well respected instrument,
848
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:12,840
as some might say it toes the line between the classical principles of Ralph Downes
849
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,840
and the more romantic sound of your typical English organ.
850
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,840
The organ was a gift from the people of what nation?
851
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,840
A. Norway
852
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,840
B. Finland
853
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:25,840
C. Sweden
854
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,840
The Norwegian government gave money for a chamber organ in there
855
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,840
and the Canadian government gave money towards the Harrison organ.
856
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:38,840
So it's A, but not as we know it.
857
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:40,840
Right, I need to do more research.
858
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:42,840
Apparently it's known as the Norwegian organ.
859
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:48,840
Ah, there's a separate Norwegian organ. I'm so sorry.
860
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,840
Do you want to rephrase it?
861
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:54,840
But the main organ is very striking, isn't it?
862
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:58,840
I mean, I've got it on a cover of a volume of modern organ music from the 70s.
863
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:00,840
Oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got a couple of those.
864
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,840
And it all started from an architect's sketch because he didn't quite know what to do.
865
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,840
So he just put some pipes at the East End.
866
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,840
And part of the success of the organ is because it's quite shallow,
867
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:16,840
because the architect Basil Spence was really mean about accommodating space for it
868
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:20,840
and he very begrudgingly called the space Harrison's 10 feet or something.
869
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:25,840
It was a classic sort of spat between architect and organ builder.
870
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,840
But ironically, I think that was to the organ's advantage
871
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,840
because had it been put in that sort of typical Oxford position, as it were,
872
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,840
in a side aisle somewhere in a great big cavernous chamber
873
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,840
that doesn't project down the main building,
874
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,840
I don't think it would sound as well as it does by any means.
875
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,840
So actually, ironically, Spence did a favour by just almost having it as an afterthought
876
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:46,840
at the East End either side.
877
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:48,840
And finally, question five.
878
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:53,840
The 19th century Las Pinas organ in St. Joseph's Church in the Philippines
879
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:58,840
is home to a unique instrument in that its pipes are made out of what material?
880
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,840
A. Glass.
881
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:02,840
B. Bamboo.
882
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:04,840
Or C. Papier-Maché.
883
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,840
It is B, Ben.
884
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:07,840
Do you know about it?
885
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:12,840
Yeah, I've got somebody lent me a book a second ago about it
886
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:14,840
because I think it was restored by Klais or somebody.
887
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,840
Yeah, well, incredibly, it dates back to 1824
888
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:21,840
and was built over six years by Father Diego Cera,
889
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:23,840
the first Catholic priest in the town.
890
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:27,840
It's a place that's unfortunately been hit quite often by earthquakes and things,
891
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,840
but they have an annual international bamboo organ festival.
892
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:32,840
Wow. Have you been invited yet?
893
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:37,840
Not yet, but it's a massive draw for the local community and general organ enthusiasts.
894
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,840
What music can you play on it?
895
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,840
I think it's got about 20 stops or so on it, so it's sort of Spanish style from the 1820s.
896
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:49,840
OK, so, and a pedal division, so you could play sort of classical music
897
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:51,840
just before Mendelssohn maybe even.
898
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:56,840
Yeah, so it's got a very distinctive sound, but no, it's not glass or papier-maché.
899
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:58,840
That's so tempting.
900
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:04,840
Well, at the end of that, Dan, you scored some points.
901
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:06,840
Well done.
902
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,840
I'll just be honest, you could basically have five out of five.
903
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:28,840
MUSIC
904
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,840
Right, well, that sounds like as good a place as any to wrap up our conversation.
905
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:34,840
I need to go and take that three-hour nap now.
906
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,840
Before we sign off, Dan, is there anything else you'd like to mention
907
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:39,840
or any products you want to shamelessly shill?
908
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,840
Any shameless books? I don't think so, no, except, yeah,
909
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,840
I hope that I have the pleasure of meeting your listeners if I've not done so already.
910
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:50,840
I don't think you want me to do that, no.
911
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:55,840
Oh, really? I'll take that back, yeah, but no, I just think it's great to have an organ podcast.
912
01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:01,840
I've heard podcasts on all sorts of fascinating things from various obscure sort of Scotch whiskers
913
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,840
who want to be pop artists.
914
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,840
Well, this can join the ranks of niche.
915
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,840
Yeah, niche, but then, you know, niche can become mainstream content.
916
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:13,840
And I think that's all I hope for the organ, isn't it?
917
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,840
How does niche become mainstream but without selling the product short?
918
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:18,840
It's a lifetime's work, isn't it?
919
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,840
In which case, this is usually the point where I construct increasingly elaborate ways
920
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:27,840
to extract a sound bite out of my guests to trumpet the quality of this podcast.
921
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:31,840
I've not had time to do that this week, so could you just say one of the following for me, please?
922
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:32,840
Yes.
923
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:40,840
The Chiff Chat podcast is excellent, acceptable, tedious, totally un-recommendable, delete as appropriate.
924
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,840
The Chiff Chat podcast is excellent.
925
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,840
Essential listening.
926
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,840
Woo!
927
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:55,840
So do you see what I mean?
928
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,840
Dan's energy is just so infectious, he ought to come with a health warning.
929
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,840
I'm very, very grateful to Dan for giving up his time.
930
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,840
He's a phenomenal teacher, animateur and performer.
931
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:07,840
Actually, if you ever get the chance to hear him live, make sure you do.
932
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:09,840
So that's another podcast.
933
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:10,840
Please do write to me.
934
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,840
It's very lonely here in this cramped little swell box in which I live.
935
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:18,840
It makes my day when I hear the inbox ping on podcast@chiffchat.com.
936
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:23,840
What I'd really like to hear from you is your opinion on the weirdest organ piece you've ever come across.
937
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:24,840
Here's mine.
938
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:30,840
It's a piece by Argentinian-German experimental absurdist composer Mauricio Kagel.
939
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:36,840
If you don't know, this is the guy who's known for writing pieces that are more like theatre performances,
940
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:41,840
where the artist has to make certain faces while they play or use unconventional things as instruments,
941
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:45,840
like a toilet or an enema, of all things.
942
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,840
You could argue that it blurs the lines of what music can be.
943
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,840
Or you could also reasonably argue that it's all just a bit silly, really.
944
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,840
But Kagel did write some more conventional pieces of music for orchestral instruments,
945
01:06:55,840 --> 01:07:00,840
including one for solo organ which is called Rrrrrrrr...
946
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,840
That's eight R's in a row followed by an ellipsis.
947
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,840
The reason for this is that all eight pieces start with a letter R.
948
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,840
But I love that that's what he called it.
949
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:11,840
The music is similarly quirky.
950
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,040
If you can, try and look out the recording by Dominik Susteck.
951
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:17,840
Granted he performs it on an organ that's got a lot of percussion stops,
952
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,040
but I've never ever heard an organ sound like this.
953
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:21,840
It's absolutely incredible.
954
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,840
Special shout out to the movement called Ragtime Waltz,
955
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:29,640
which sounds like a demented fairground ride that's been possessed by a circus ringleader.
956
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:31,440
So there you go. There's your homework for this week.
957
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:33,840
Let me know if you can find anything weirder.
958
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:35,840
Podcast@chiffchat.com.
959
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:37,240
Donate on TipJar.
960
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,240
Oh no, I'm being swallowed up by the outro music.
961
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,240
Alright, see you next week. Bye!