A Decent Life: Morality for the Rest of Us | Dr. Todd May

1
00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:03,780
Unknown: If we think of morality
as offering us opportunities to

2
00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:07,770
make the world better,
opportunities to help where we

3
00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,210
can, that won't dominate our
lives in the same way, and so we

4
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:17,340
can move with a little moral
gracefulness through the world.

5
00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:21,000
Rather than carrying our
morality as a burden, we can see

6
00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:22,980
it more as an opportunity.

7
00:00:28,910 --> 00:00:31,490
PJ Wehry: Hello and welcome to
Chasing Leviathan. I'm your host

8
00:00:31,580 --> 00:00:35,000
PJ Wery, and I'm here today with
Dr. Todd May, who is the Nielsen

9
00:00:35,090 --> 00:00:38,780
Professor of the Humanities at
Warren Wilson College. We're

10
00:00:38,930 --> 00:00:41,830
here to talk about his book, A
Decent life, morality for the

11
00:00:41,950 --> 00:00:46,330
rest of us, Doctor May, Todd,
Todd, wonderful to have you on

12
00:00:46,390 --> 00:00:46,540
today.

13
00:00:47,049 --> 00:00:48,909
Unknown: Hey, well, PJ, thanks
for the invitation.

14
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,330
PJ Wehry: So, Todd, why this
book? Why decency? A decent life

15
00:00:55,390 --> 00:00:56,980
for the you know morality for
the rest of

16
00:00:57,459 --> 00:01:00,159
Unknown: us. Okay, well, there's
actually a story behind this,

17
00:01:00,249 --> 00:01:04,349
PJ. So, yeah, I had been working
with the University of Chicago

18
00:01:04,559 --> 00:01:08,009
Press, and I'd published a
couple books with them. And

19
00:01:08,279 --> 00:01:10,529
after the second book, I said,
"I don't really think I have

20
00:01:10,589 --> 00:01:14,009
anything more to say here. I'm
pretty much done, I think. And

21
00:01:14,039 --> 00:01:17,309
the editor asked if we could
have a phone conversation. We

22
00:01:17,369 --> 00:01:22,999
never did that. We usually met
by email, and so I got her on

23
00:01:23,029 --> 00:01:27,409
the phone, and she said, "Look,
Todd, she said, "I was thinking

24
00:01:27,409 --> 00:01:32,749
to myself, what would be a book
that you would write that I'd

25
00:01:32,839 --> 00:01:38,719
want to read? And she said, "Are
you familiar with Peter Singer's

26
00:01:38,809 --> 00:01:43,149
book, The Most Good You Can do,
right now. I don't know if your

27
00:01:43,389 --> 00:01:47,409
listeners know much about Peter
Singer, but but the idea is you

28
00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:51,819
know that he's utilitarian
always caused the most good,

29
00:01:52,599 --> 00:01:55,929
right? And so this this is a
book about people who you know

30
00:01:56,139 --> 00:01:59,529
sold their kidney, what donated
their kidneys to other people,

31
00:01:59,919 --> 00:02:03,629
took jobs on Wall Street, so
that people could have, so they

32
00:02:03,629 --> 00:02:07,739
can make a lot of money and give
it away. And so I said, "Yeah,

33
00:02:07,889 --> 00:02:10,619
no, I'm, I know Singer, and I
know his view, and I know that

34
00:02:10,649 --> 00:02:14,159
book. And and so the editor
said, "Look, I like you to write

35
00:02:14,219 --> 00:02:19,289
that book, right? The most you
could do for sane people, right?

36
00:02:21,629 --> 00:02:21,829
That's a

37
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:22,579
PJ Wehry: great ask.

38
00:02:23,690 --> 00:02:26,810
Unknown: Immediately, I knew
what you meant. Right. So the

39
00:02:27,140 --> 00:02:31,490
idea was that most of us are not
going to become moral exemplars.

40
00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:35,120
Right. There are reasons I talk
about them in the book why maybe

41
00:02:35,660 --> 00:02:39,230
we we shouldn't all become moral
exemplars. But then the question

42
00:02:39,260 --> 00:02:43,330
is, how do you frame morality?
How do you frame our moral tasks

43
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,190
if you're not thinking in terms
of like the best life or the

44
00:02:48,340 --> 00:02:51,400
good life? And what you know,
for Aristotle, it's it's the the

45
00:02:52,030 --> 00:02:57,220
telus of a life. For Kant, it's
ways in which to become like a

46
00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,190
completely virtuous person. How
might we frame it? And PJ, what

47
00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:06,180
happened was I started to frame
it differently, and so the book

48
00:03:06,390 --> 00:03:09,600
offers a different frame for
thinking about our moral lives.

49
00:03:10,290 --> 00:03:13,920
That's that's it's distinct from
the kinds of things you see with

50
00:03:14,010 --> 00:03:17,370
traditional moral philosophy,
and I just call it decency.

51
00:03:17,970 --> 00:03:23,030
Right, you can get a little bit,
people can get a little little

52
00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:26,480
weird about the word decency
because you know, if you go out

53
00:03:26,570 --> 00:03:30,320
for like to a really good
restaurant and they say how was

54
00:03:30,350 --> 00:03:33,800
the meal and you say it was
decent, that's not a great

55
00:03:34,010 --> 00:03:38,540
thing, right? So I'm thinking of
decency as like better than

56
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,550
mediocrity, right? Less than
being a moral exemplar.

57
00:03:43,810 --> 00:03:50,860
PJ Wehry: Yeah, absolutely. I so
I'm a devout Christian. I grew

58
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,750
up that way, and so a lot of the
examples I think of things come

59
00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:03,390
from Scripture. One of the the I
was reading Teresa Avila, the

60
00:04:03,930 --> 00:04:09,330
Interior Castle, and so I
understand there's some there's

61
00:04:09,390 --> 00:04:13,710
some moral implications about
the the whole story, but one of

62
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,840
the things that as I was
reading, and she's like this

63
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,990
moral exemplar of like this
incredible you know mystical

64
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,740
union, and she's given she's a
nun, and she's given everything

65
00:04:21,890 --> 00:04:24,080
up, and she's even fighting
through like against the

66
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:29,570
Inquisition, and she's
referencing positively Elijah,

67
00:04:31,730 --> 00:04:37,460
and that that her whole order
praises Elijah. Their motto is

68
00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:40,190
Elijah saying, "I am zealous for
the Lord. I have been zealous

69
00:04:40,250 --> 00:04:44,440
for the Lord, and but actually,
in the context, the the story. I

70
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,630
don't know if you're familiar
with the story. Elijah has this

71
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:54,400
big confrontation with with
these child sacrificing. Maybe

72
00:04:54,430 --> 00:05:00,090
they're errors. The the prophets
of Baal, and he he wins the. Day

73
00:05:00,870 --> 00:05:03,570
and then he still gets
persecuted by the king and

74
00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,880
queen. They're trying to kill
him, and he flees into the

75
00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:08,940
desert. And he's basically
really depressed. And everyone

76
00:05:08,970 --> 00:05:10,950
talks about God coming to talk
to him, but the first thing

77
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,890
happens is God makes him fall
asleep and gives him a snack,

78
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,980
which I think is a great talking
about you know just like good

79
00:05:17,070 --> 00:05:19,050
common sense. It's like if
you're depressed, let's start

80
00:05:19,110 --> 00:05:23,780
with yeah with that. And he and
he says, "I am so zealous. I am

81
00:05:23,930 --> 00:05:27,140
I am so zealous for you, God.
And no, I am the last one. No

82
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,730
one else is faithful. And God's
response is, "There's 7000 other

83
00:05:31,820 --> 00:05:35,240
people that no one thinks or
talks about over here who are

84
00:05:35,330 --> 00:05:39,080
faithful to me. It's like you
know, it's like you just had

85
00:05:39,140 --> 00:05:42,040
this great like miracle and all
these things, and you're you're

86
00:05:42,340 --> 00:05:45,070
talking to King Queen. There's
7000 people will never see

87
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,720
miracles, and they're living
good, decent lives over here.

88
00:05:50,650 --> 00:05:53,800
And what's interesting is
everyone looks at Teresa Avila

89
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,650
as like, oh, this amazing
person, and she is. But it's

90
00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,840
also it's like that, like
literally in the story, it's

91
00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:04,410
like there's 7000 people who God
is happy with over here, just

92
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,130
like farming, having families,
and not. I don't. Anyways,

93
00:06:08,430 --> 00:06:11,070
that's that's what I thought. Is
that a is that a kind of like

94
00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:14,820
tracking a little bit with kind
of the the purpose of your book?

95
00:06:15,330 --> 00:06:17,430
Unknown: Yeah, I think Paige,
but I want to be a little

96
00:06:17,490 --> 00:06:19,770
careful about one aspect of it.
So yeah,

97
00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:20,960
PJ Wehry: go for

98
00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,550
Unknown: it. These 7000 people,

99
00:06:23,570 --> 00:06:23,720
PJ Wehry: yes,

100
00:06:24,650 --> 00:06:28,610
Unknown: they can be living
decent lives, or they can be

101
00:06:28,790 --> 00:06:35,060
living exemplary lives. Except
nobody knows it, right? So also

102
00:06:35,210 --> 00:06:35,300
true.

103
00:06:35,510 --> 00:06:35,660
PJ Wehry: Yes.

104
00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:39,200
Unknown: Right. So what I want
to press on is the first thing,

105
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,130
right? Right. There, these
people are trying their best.

106
00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:46,240
They're making mistakes. They're
they're not famous, but they're

107
00:06:46,330 --> 00:06:51,310
also not perfect. And yet, and
still, right? They're trying to

108
00:06:51,460 --> 00:06:56,140
frame how to live decently in a
world that doesn't always

109
00:06:56,230 --> 00:06:56,710
welcome that.

110
00:06:58,450 --> 00:07:02,250
PJ Wehry: And I think, and what
I wanted to highlight, and I,

111
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,090
sorry, not trying to hijack
everything here. It was that

112
00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:08,640
everyone tells the stories of
Elijah. They tell the story of

113
00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:12,540
Teresa, you know, of Avila,
Mother Teresa, you know, Peter

114
00:07:12,690 --> 00:07:15,540
Singer. It's he's like this guy
gave his kidney because that,

115
00:07:15,810 --> 00:07:18,900
you know, and you're like,
that's a lot to give a kidney,

116
00:07:19,050 --> 00:07:24,950
right? It's like, and I think
that, anyways, I um, uh, that

117
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,240
that really connected with me.
But maybe I've thrown us off a

118
00:07:29,300 --> 00:07:31,400
little bit. So my apologies if
that was a little bit out of the

119
00:07:31,430 --> 00:07:35,510
blue. I what are the and I think
that kind of leads into what you

120
00:07:35,630 --> 00:07:38,240
hinted at in the book you give.
What are some of the reasons for

121
00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:39,770
not becoming a moral exemplar?

122
00:07:40,670 --> 00:07:44,560
Unknown: Well, Susan Wolf, the
philosopher from UNC, right, has

123
00:07:44,710 --> 00:07:49,240
written on this, and she has
just this great article called

124
00:07:49,270 --> 00:07:53,230
"Moral Saints, and she said,
"Look, if we were all moral

125
00:07:54,580 --> 00:07:57,610
saints, what kinds of things
would go by the boards, right?

126
00:07:57,850 --> 00:08:00,720
You know, a lot of music would
go by the boards because music

127
00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:04,590
doesn't always cause the most
overall good, right? A lot of

128
00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:06,810
friendships would go by the
board because they don't

129
00:08:06,930 --> 00:08:10,530
necessarily cause the most
overall good. So there are lots

130
00:08:10,830 --> 00:08:14,490
of aspects of our lives that
involve things that we value,

131
00:08:15,540 --> 00:08:20,070
and our lives might be less
meaningful if we didn't have

132
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,620
access to these, or didn't
cultivate these. So we should

133
00:08:24,830 --> 00:08:28,970
think of moral values and acting
morally as a really important

134
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,590
part of our life. But it's not
clear that we should subsume all

135
00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:37,550
of our lives, or to put it
another way, subsume everything

136
00:08:37,610 --> 00:08:44,230
that we value under the rubric
of is it moral or is it not? So

137
00:08:44,260 --> 00:08:46,630
I think there's some good
reasons not to be moral

138
00:08:46,660 --> 00:08:49,450
exemplars, but I want to be a
little bit careful here, PJ.

139
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,080
It's probably good to have some
moral exemplars out there. Yeah,

140
00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:56,440
yeah, right. Yeah. So it's it's
not like nobody should try to be

141
00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:59,560
a moral exemplar, but if
everybody tried to be a moral

142
00:08:59,590 --> 00:09:03,900
exemplar, there is a lot that we
value that would go by the

143
00:09:03,900 --> 00:09:04,200
boards.

144
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,390
PJ Wehry: I feel like there's
two distinct ways that could be

145
00:09:09,540 --> 00:09:12,870
taken, and I'm curious which
one. So when you talk about the,

146
00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:19,980
it would be it'd be okay to lose
those things. Like one one way

147
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,010
of thinking about is that it'd
be okay to lose those things if

148
00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:23,930
everyone could be moral
exemplars, but it's okay that's

149
00:09:24,020 --> 00:09:28,040
not. Or are we saying, or I'm
just trying to understand here,

150
00:09:28,910 --> 00:09:33,620
is it more that would be bad if
we lost these things by everyone

151
00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:35,600
becoming moral exemplars? Does
that make sense?

152
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:36,710
Unknown: Yeah, option B.

153
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,450
PJ Wehry: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, yes, all right. Yeah,

154
00:09:40,540 --> 00:09:42,640
which is the stronger claim,
right? Yeah, like the

155
00:09:44,289 --> 00:09:48,699
Unknown: yeah, yeah. The the I
mean, and and I know what Peter

156
00:09:48,819 --> 00:09:51,039
Singh is going to say to stuff
like that. He's going to say,

157
00:09:51,099 --> 00:09:54,579
yeah, but is it worth it? And
actually, what he's going to

158
00:09:54,579 --> 00:09:57,489
say, what he he has said, right?
Is it worth it to have things

159
00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:04,199
like opera and? And and and
various music and art when at

160
00:10:04,199 --> 00:10:09,629
the expense of people starving,
and I and and I think that you

161
00:10:09,659 --> 00:10:14,939
know I think that's a powerful
point, right? But I also think

162
00:10:15,089 --> 00:10:20,069
that we get that what happens to
our lives involves lots of

163
00:10:20,159 --> 00:10:23,629
different things that might be
might contribute to our

164
00:10:23,689 --> 00:10:28,909
meaningfulness, and it it seems
to me a bit much to ask us to

165
00:10:28,999 --> 00:10:36,979
sacrifice all those things in
favor of a moral view that seems

166
00:10:37,069 --> 00:10:38,869
very strict and very austere.

167
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,520
PJ Wehry: Yeah, I think that
austerity has always been the

168
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,550
thing that struck me about Peter
Singer's framework. Right? It's

169
00:10:48,610 --> 00:10:51,940
like I don't know that I want to
live in that world, even if you

170
00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:54,640
know. It's like yeah, yeah.

171
00:10:56,500 --> 00:10:58,360
Unknown: And that's that's where
the notion of decency comes

172
00:10:58,420 --> 00:11:02,400
from. Right? Trying to try and
provide an alternative that

173
00:11:02,460 --> 00:11:08,700
allows us to keep a rich moral
life, right? Without having to

174
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,940
live in an austere, overly
moralized world.

175
00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:17,820
PJ Wehry: And I think we've kind
of been talking about this,

176
00:11:17,940 --> 00:11:20,600
anyways, without the
terminology. But in the first

177
00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:23,450
chapter, you talk about the
difference between altruism and

178
00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:26,810
decency. Can you tease that out
a little bit so that we have

179
00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:29,300
that that kind of working
vocabulary you have in the book?

180
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,490
Unknown: Yeah, altruism is is
self sacrifice generally

181
00:11:34,610 --> 00:11:39,470
considered self sacrifice from
moral lands, and so the idea is

182
00:11:39,620 --> 00:11:43,450
that other aspects of your life
that that contribute to its

183
00:11:43,510 --> 00:11:46,240
being meaningful are not that
important, right? You let them

184
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:52,840
go, and decency, by contrast, is
the attempt to be a good person

185
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,340
but not necessarily a moral
exemplar, right? To integrate

186
00:11:57,610 --> 00:12:01,830
morality right into your life in
such a way that it that it has

187
00:12:01,950 --> 00:12:05,250
an important role to play, but
not everything has to be

188
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,250
subsumed right to it. One of the
things I say a little bit later

189
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:15,480
that's probably worth bringing
up now is I introduce the notion

190
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,800
of of moral grace or moral
gracefulness, right? And if we

191
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,880
think of morality as something
that something that should

192
00:12:26,030 --> 00:12:30,770
dominate our lives, so that
becomes such a burden. Then we

193
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,070
become a little bit more
alienated from our lives, right?

194
00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:39,170
But if we think of morality as
offering us opportunities to

195
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,750
make the world better,
opportunities to help where we

196
00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:48,190
can that won't dominate our
lives in the same way, and so we

197
00:12:48,340 --> 00:12:53,320
can move with a little moral
gracefulness through the world,

198
00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:58,600
right? Rather than carrying our
morality as a burden, we can see

199
00:12:58,990 --> 00:13:03,420
it more as an opportunity. Now
there will be moral burdens in

200
00:13:03,450 --> 00:13:07,500
our life. That's you know that's
just taken for granted, but we

201
00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:12,360
don't want to think of all of
morality as this burden that we

202
00:13:12,450 --> 00:13:15,840
have to shoulder, right? From
the time we can figure out what

203
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,060
morality is until the time we
die.

204
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,000
PJ Wehry: Yeah. Is there? And
I'm I'm trying to just make sure

205
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,120
I'm tracking with you here. One
is that when we talk, when you

206
00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:29,420
talk about alienated, that's
connected to that austerity.

207
00:13:30,050 --> 00:13:35,300
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I I
understand that is in some ways

208
00:13:35,570 --> 00:13:40,310
it sounds like morality works
better if I'm understanding you

209
00:13:40,340 --> 00:13:42,580
correctly when it's
inspirational rather than

210
00:13:43,630 --> 00:13:47,380
obligation, or it's generative
rather than obligatory.

211
00:13:48,340 --> 00:13:51,100
Unknown: I would say that's
often the case. I want to be a

212
00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:54,490
little careful here, right?
Yeah, you know the ancient

213
00:13:54,490 --> 00:14:00,270
philosopher Aristotle often said
that certain things he was

214
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,100
saying were true, and used the
phrase true in general and for

215
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:05,760
the most part.

216
00:14:06,630 --> 00:14:07,800
PJ Wehry: Yes, I

217
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,420
Unknown: love that phrase,
right?

218
00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:09,750
PJ Wehry: Yeah.

219
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:14,220
Unknown: So I don't want to say
that it's always the case,

220
00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:19,470
right? That inspirational
morality that comes out of

221
00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,670
inspiration is going to be
better than maladap that comes

222
00:14:22,850 --> 00:14:27,080
off out of a sense of burden,
but I think in general and for

223
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,270
the most part, right, it will be
better.

224
00:14:30,379 --> 00:14:34,009
PJ Wehry: One of the examples
you give is in Copenhagen: the

225
00:14:34,009 --> 00:14:37,429
the difference in the way they
view the subway versus people in

226
00:14:37,489 --> 00:14:44,889
New York. Yes, and one of the
things that occurred to me, and

227
00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:50,769
I think I have some idea of how
you'd answer this. It one

228
00:14:50,799 --> 00:14:53,319
there's the building up, and
maybe this is part of being

229
00:14:53,469 --> 00:14:55,929
decent, is that you are
encouraging people not to all be

230
00:14:56,019 --> 00:14:58,749
moral exemplars, but to be
decent and to raise kind of the

231
00:14:58,839 --> 00:15:02,339
culture up where. That becomes
the norm where people look at

232
00:15:02,399 --> 00:15:05,429
you weird when you do something
indecent, right? You're like,

233
00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:09,059
why? Why would you do that? And
and so lifting up the whole

234
00:15:09,239 --> 00:15:14,969
culture of it is there, and and
maybe this is about difficult

235
00:15:15,029 --> 00:15:18,389
times and moral and the call to
being a moral exemplar just in

236
00:15:18,629 --> 00:15:21,709
the the time and the place, but
when your whole culture is

237
00:15:21,919 --> 00:15:25,699
problematic, like so, for
instance, I mean the classic

238
00:15:25,819 --> 00:15:30,739
moral, you know, case is the
Gestapo is coming, and you have

239
00:15:30,799 --> 00:15:34,039
to make a choice to either give
the Jews over or to hide them in

240
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:38,899
your house, right? In that case,
it feels like you're being

241
00:15:39,049 --> 00:15:43,629
forced into a moral exemplar
situation, or do you like how

242
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:46,299
does how does decency fit into
those situations, or is that

243
00:15:46,359 --> 00:15:49,749
just not? Are you talking about
more like the building up of

244
00:15:49,839 --> 00:15:50,169
culture?

245
00:15:50,770 --> 00:15:55,720
Unknown: Good, no, it's a really
good question, PJ. The the let

246
00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,450
me step back and and introduce a
concept from the philosopher

247
00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:04,020
Thomas Nagel, and then swing
back to the question. Right, so

248
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,950
Nagel's got this great essay,
"Moral Luck, and he talks about

249
00:16:08,070 --> 00:16:12,000
four different kinds of moral
luck. Right, and one of the

250
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:14,850
kinds of moral luck is, I think,
is I think he uses the word

251
00:16:14,940 --> 00:16:19,080
conditional. Right, it's the
conditions that you find

252
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:22,280
yourself under. So that there
may be certain conditions you

253
00:16:22,370 --> 00:16:26,810
find yourself under that you are
morally required to sacrifice

254
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,320
more than you would be under
other conditions, and he uses

255
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,090
the the Nazi example, right? I
say something about that in the

256
00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:39,410
book relative to the climate
crisis. So in the climate

257
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,540
crisis, right, we are, I
believe, called to do things

258
00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:47,260
that are going to be more
inconvenient for us than they

259
00:16:47,380 --> 00:16:50,650
might otherwise be. Certainly,
more inconvenient than if we

260
00:16:50,770 --> 00:16:54,070
were not in a situation of a
climate crisis. So I think that

261
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:59,710
there are situations where you
have this word "conditional. We

262
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:03,300
have this conditional or
situational moral luck that we

263
00:17:03,510 --> 00:17:08,040
find ourselves in a situation in
which more is required of us now

264
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:12,900
than would be required under
other conditions. I actually

265
00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:16,110
think in the U.S. to bring the
example a little bit closer to

266
00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:23,600
home, right? We often some
places are in a situation of

267
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:29,090
conditional moral luck, and
that's when ICE comes through

268
00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:34,040
and starts arresting people,
arresting your neighbors,

269
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:39,920
throwing them in cages. That
those people have an obligation

270
00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:43,510
to do something that might
actually expose them to some

271
00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:47,830
kind of harm that people who are
not in that situation don't

272
00:17:47,890 --> 00:17:52,330
have. So people say in
Minneapolis, they this was not

273
00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:54,400
comfortable for them. It was
dangerous. Obviously, it was

274
00:17:54,430 --> 00:17:58,600
dangerous. Two people were
murdered, but there was an

275
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,610
obligation that they had that
say I'm living in Asheville and

276
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,540
we haven't had a surge yet,
right? That we don't have that

277
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,100
obligation. But if this comes to
Asheville, right, we will have

278
00:18:11,130 --> 00:18:15,270
an obligation, right, to make
ourselves more vulnerable than

279
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:20,160
we would otherwise, right? So
it's right, I think PJ, to say

280
00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:23,660
that decency, right, is not
something that we can always

281
00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:28,670
just claim a get out of jail
free card with, right? Yeah.

282
00:18:29,210 --> 00:18:32,510
Sometimes we're just called
upon, given the conditions, to

283
00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:33,260
do something more.

284
00:18:35,570 --> 00:18:38,870
PJ Wehry: As an example, and I,
I believe I read this in the

285
00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:42,550
biography. You did some work
with apartheid, anti-apartheid.

286
00:18:42,940 --> 00:18:49,450
Yeah, yes, yeah. Sorry,
anti-apartheid. That's how. I I

287
00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:53,500
hope everyone understood what I
was saying there. But that would

288
00:18:53,530 --> 00:18:56,920
be like living in South Africa
during that time. That was, I

289
00:18:56,950 --> 00:19:00,700
mean, clear. Sure. At that
point, battle lines are drawn,

290
00:19:00,790 --> 00:19:06,360
right? Like, I mean, like
cultural, like it becomes a you

291
00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:08,880
have to make a choice. You can't
you can't if sitting on the

292
00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:13,110
sidelines would have been would
have been making a choice as

293
00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:15,150
well. If that makes sense, would
that be fair? The

294
00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:18,900
Unknown: civil rights movement
in in the South in the 1950s and

295
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:21,770
1960s. That's another example of
that. If you're white in the

296
00:19:21,770 --> 00:19:25,940
South, you have obligations that
that may make you vulnerable.

297
00:19:27,260 --> 00:19:30,980
That people in the North right
didn't have at that moment.

298
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:37,730
PJ Wehry: And so you you move
like, and I love this movement

299
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,010
here through the book. You start
out with just like, so we have

300
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,270
like these edge cases, and you
know that's. I apologize, you

301
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,610
know that's the classic
philosophy question. It's like,

302
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,890
well, let's talk about like the
really difficult cases. You're

303
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,590
like, well, kind of the book's
about like how can you be better

304
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,620
with the people. You know, I
love you start this way, the

305
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,750
people right around you, and
like, no, I don't want to do

306
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:05,190
that. That's actual like. Work,
like, can you talk a little bit

307
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:08,340
about that movement? And and I
think even at the end of the

308
00:20:08,430 --> 00:20:11,100
book, you talk a little bit
about how this will give people

309
00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:13,410
the chance to become moral
exemplars. Like, there's that in

310
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,360
between stage, but it really
starts with like we don't want

311
00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:21,140
moral exemplars who aren't good
to the people around them,

312
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,720
right? We don't want to like
like this kind of like oh you

313
00:20:23,780 --> 00:20:26,840
shoot off into the stratosphere
and actually you're a jerk. But

314
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,450
we because of the publicity
because sometimes acting.

315
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:32,720
Anyways, I digress. Yeah, go
ahead.

316
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,420
Unknown: Well, the the structure
actually came from some of my

317
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:43,150
reading of David Hume and his
view of morality. So for Hume,

318
00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:48,190
morality begins in sympathy, and
the idea is to extend it out.

319
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:49,420
PJ Wehry: Yeah.

320
00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:53,410
Unknown: So the structure of the
book starts with right common

321
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:59,080
decency to people who are around
you, and then it moves to to

322
00:20:59,380 --> 00:21:02,550
people who are not around you.
Maybe people who are people who

323
00:21:02,550 --> 00:21:05,610
are more distant in space, or
people more distant in time,

324
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:08,940
generations that aren't here
yet, right? And then it moves

325
00:21:09,060 --> 00:21:13,830
out further to non-human
animals, right? Our relationship

326
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:19,050
to to them. So what I tried to
was start close, and then move

327
00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:23,810
out, which which I think
parallels in a way Hume's idea

328
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,210
of taking our sympathetic
relationship to people who are

329
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,780
around us and figuring out how
to extend that out. So that's

330
00:21:32,810 --> 00:21:37,010
the structure, and in doing
that, right, I start with the

331
00:21:37,250 --> 00:21:41,890
idea of common decency, holding
a door for people, the people in

332
00:21:41,980 --> 00:21:45,520
Copenhagen who who when the when
people are getting off the

333
00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:48,160
train, they stand to the side.
They don't try to crowd in and

334
00:21:48,190 --> 00:21:55,840
get a good space. I think I
talked about when your kid does

335
00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:59,800
something that's really
irritating, right? Taking taking

336
00:21:59,890 --> 00:22:02,880
a breath and looking at them,
actually looking at them in the

337
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,230
face, right? I try to do that.
By the way, also, oftentimes

338
00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:11,040
when people who are who are
unhoused on the street, right,

339
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,550
and ask for money, right, even
when I can't give it to them, I

340
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,090
try to look at them, right, and
say something to them, right.

341
00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:22,280
See them, see them as a fellow
human being, right? The one

342
00:22:22,820 --> 00:22:27,020
example that got pushback,
although it was an example that

343
00:22:27,020 --> 00:22:32,570
I saw a couple places, was
somebody sitting next to you, a

344
00:22:32,660 --> 00:22:36,710
colleague with hot coffee, and
they leave the room, and you

345
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,380
take a napkin and put it over
their cup, so it keeps the the

346
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:41,920
coffee warm, right? I was going
to

347
00:22:42,010 --> 00:22:42,940
PJ Wehry: ask you about it. So I
thought it

348
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,500
Unknown: was a good example.
Some people think some people

349
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:53,680
like, oh, that's gross, right?
So I, you know, I'm not going to

350
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,120
die on that particular hill, but
I think it's a, I think it's an

351
00:22:58,150 --> 00:22:59,050
interesting example.

352
00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:03,960
PJ Wehry: I maybe it's because
there's no culture. I've never

353
00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:06,990
seen someone do that before, and
so messing with someone else's

354
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:10,560
food without asking, I could
see. I don't. I understand the

355
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,870
thought, and it's not. It's not
gross. There's nothing wrong

356
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,080
with it. It's just. I think
people are like, if I came back

357
00:23:16,170 --> 00:23:20,910
and I was like, whom has my
coffee? Right. Yeah. That's

358
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,320
really. Here's the other thing,
PJ. Is like we're all we're all

359
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,260
working with to go cups with the
plastic thing on top, so no, you

360
00:23:27,290 --> 00:23:32,180
can't even do it anyway. Well,
but if we're if we're listening

361
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,210
to the climate crisis properly,
then we should be. Right, right.

362
00:23:35,390 --> 00:23:35,480
Fair

363
00:23:35,930 --> 00:23:36,050
Unknown: enough.

364
00:23:39,230 --> 00:23:43,180
PJ Wehry: No, that's that kind
of derailed me a little bit.

365
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,660
That was funny. I love one
thing. This connects with my

366
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,250
previous guest. It'll be the
episode right before this one. I

367
00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:55,300
actually had on to talk about
the ethics of dog ownership, and

368
00:23:56,050 --> 00:23:58,690
still on the one hand, I love
that you know that kind of

369
00:23:58,690 --> 00:24:01,590
extends out. Dog ownership is
interesting because the

370
00:24:01,710 --> 00:24:05,430
non-human animal side-it's like
actually they're very close to

371
00:24:05,550 --> 00:24:08,880
us. But the the other thing
that's interesting is what she

372
00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:14,310
put it. Kind of the foundation
of it is at the the and I think

373
00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:19,890
this this is very congenial to
your project. To be curious is

374
00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:26,420
the foundation of of ethics, and
so that idea of stopping and

375
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,450
actually paying attention, like
when your dog is barking, not

376
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,120
just being like "stop that, but
like "Okay, why is the dog

377
00:24:32,210 --> 00:24:36,650
barking? Very similar. I I have
five kids and we homeschool, so

378
00:24:37,610 --> 00:24:41,530
when you talk about that breath,
I've heard that I needed the

379
00:24:41,620 --> 00:24:46,360
reminder, so thank you. But
that, how does does being

380
00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:49,960
curious is? I think in some ways
that kind of sounds similar to

381
00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:53,860
sympathy. Is that is that a
useful addition, or do you have

382
00:24:53,980 --> 00:24:54,760
a pushback on that?

383
00:24:55,390 --> 00:24:58,960
Unknown: No, no, no. Let me step
back to to talk about an early

384
00:24:59,050 --> 00:25:01,680
frame, and then come back.
Forward to to curiosity. Sure, I

385
00:25:01,740 --> 00:25:03,240
think it's related, right? So

386
00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:03,990
PJ Wehry: yeah, at

387
00:25:04,620 --> 00:25:07,470
Unknown: the end of the book,
you know, I what I say that

388
00:25:07,950 --> 00:25:13,050
people decent. The fundamental
decency is recognizing that

389
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,350
there are others out there who
have lives to live, right? That

390
00:25:16,410 --> 00:25:20,810
they they need shelter, they
need food, they don't they don't

391
00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:23,270
want to feel isolated. They want
to feel that their lives mean

392
00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:27,980
something to someone. That and
that what we need to to do is

393
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:32,450
recognize that, right? And that
that that our that moral decency

394
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:36,920
emerges first and foremost from
that recognition, right? But if

395
00:25:36,980 --> 00:25:40,420
we start there, right, then you
can see that that's going to

396
00:25:40,450 --> 00:25:43,840
lead toward curiosity, right?
Because I'm going to recognize,

397
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,990
okay, that that personality
isn't simply there for my needs,

398
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,190
right? And I and I don't even
know always what that person

399
00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:54,070
wants. Well, what that person is
about. What's meaningful to that

400
00:25:54,130 --> 00:26:00,370
person? So, in that sense, from
the principle that I've started,

401
00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:04,110
I started the book with. I think
it's a short space to say

402
00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:07,680
curiosity is going to play an
important role because you you

403
00:26:07,950 --> 00:26:11,670
assume that you don't always
know what that other person is

404
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,500
about because they're not you.

405
00:26:15,030 --> 00:26:17,850
PJ Wehry: And I feel like
curiosity and sympathy are not

406
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,470
the same thing, but they're
adjacent. I think that curiosity

407
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,070
will lead to sympathy. It's just
her focusing on a different step

408
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,170
in the process. Yeah, yeah,
yeah.

409
00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:27,950
Unknown: I think that's right.

410
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,560
PJ Wehry: And I did want to ask
about this, and this might be

411
00:26:30,620 --> 00:26:35,360
getting too granular. But as we
look at the table of contents,

412
00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:39,530
I'm looking at the chapter
titles, and I one nine rules for

413
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,370
moral decency that should be
followed strictly and without

414
00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:45,550
exception is a hilarious way to
end. So thank you for that. I

415
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,900
love that title, especially
because the coffee cup thing.

416
00:26:50,650 --> 00:26:55,570
Anyways, that was you know I'm
not saying philosophers are

417
00:26:55,630 --> 00:26:58,120
never funny, but it's always a
little bit of humor in

418
00:26:58,150 --> 00:27:01,080
philosophy is always enjoyable.
Sometimes it doesn't show up,

419
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,470
but when we talk about decency
toward those around us, I notice

420
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:10,530
that you you capitalize that
differently from the other

421
00:27:10,620 --> 00:27:11,460
chapters in the book.

422
00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:17,220
Unknown: Nobody's pointed that
out before. I I would say I

423
00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:18,990
would say blame the copyright
person.

424
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,100
PJ Wehry: Oh yeah. Well, it
looks intentional.

425
00:27:22,610 --> 00:27:23,810
Unknown: Yeah. What's the what?
Yeah,

426
00:27:24,170 --> 00:27:27,830
PJ Wehry: it's it looks
intentional. It's decency toward

427
00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:29,420
those around

428
00:27:30,380 --> 00:27:30,830
Unknown: us. Okay. And

429
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,130
PJ Wehry: so you have decency
capitalized, those capitalized,

430
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,180
and us capitalized.

431
00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:39,620
Unknown: Yeah. That's yeah.
That's that's the copy edit,

432
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:43,390
right? Oh, the copy of the talk.
I ran

433
00:27:43,690 --> 00:27:44,590
PJ Wehry: so much into that.

434
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,420
Unknown: Yeah. No. Okay. Yeah.
No. I thought you were like

435
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:52,810
making a

436
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,540
PJ Wehry: comment about like the
other or

437
00:27:57,460 --> 00:28:01,920
Unknown: no, no, no. It's it's
the the the no the copy the copy

438
00:28:01,980 --> 00:28:05,430
editor says, "Hey, look, right.
This this is what gets

439
00:28:05,490 --> 00:28:11,070
capitalized, and this is what
gets lowercase. And um, and far

440
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,030
be it for me to argue that fits
into the point with the copy

441
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:15,270
editor.

442
00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:20,900
PJ Wehry: Okay, got you. I I got
you. Sorry, that's really funny.

443
00:28:21,230 --> 00:28:24,110
I was really excited about that
question. I was like, I think I

444
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,010
noticed something. No,

445
00:28:25,580 --> 00:28:27,290
Unknown: that's really
disappointing. But

446
00:28:28,250 --> 00:28:30,440
PJ Wehry: oh no, no, that's
that's fine. That's really this.

447
00:28:30,620 --> 00:28:41,020
This in some ways is even
better. Sorry, so we go from

448
00:28:41,260 --> 00:28:44,620
decency toward those around us,
and then the next chapter is

449
00:28:44,770 --> 00:28:48,190
widening the circle, and then
widening the circle again. Yeah,

450
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:52,540
and I think there's good
philosophical reasons, kind of

451
00:28:52,540 --> 00:28:55,450
the history of philosophy, why
even though dogs may be close to

452
00:28:55,540 --> 00:28:59,620
us, they're still the step after
other humans because that's the

453
00:28:59,770 --> 00:29:03,150
way that we have organized,
yeah. Our though at least

454
00:29:03,210 --> 00:29:06,360
Western society is that that
fair say?

455
00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:09,540
Unknown: That's right. It's you
know, and that you know that was

456
00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:14,460
a point of reflection. I just
thought it's going to be easier

457
00:29:14,550 --> 00:29:18,750
for people to see if I start
with people who are more distant

458
00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:24,020
in space and in time, and then
move toward. beings that can

459
00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:25,250
feel more distant to us.

460
00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:29,090
PJ Wehry: I'm curious. When you,
I would love to just hear in

461
00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:33,410
general more about space and
time. But you talked about in

462
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,530
time thinking about generations
in the future.

463
00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:37,310
Unknown: Is

464
00:29:37,670 --> 00:29:42,190
PJ Wehry: there? Do we have any
obligations, or is there a sense

465
00:29:42,250 --> 00:29:44,260
of decency towards people in the
past?

466
00:29:44,830 --> 00:29:46,990
Unknown: Yeah, this is an
important issue, and I don't

467
00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:52,210
think I take it up in the book.
The obviously we have some sense

468
00:29:53,710 --> 00:29:57,190
of it of decency. So, for
instance, right when someone

469
00:29:57,670 --> 00:30:01,560
dies, right, we we don't just.
Like throw them in a in a wood

470
00:30:01,620 --> 00:30:05,940
chipper, right, right, right. We
we think that the that there's

471
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,520
some obligation to them, and
that that you know if if our

472
00:30:11,610 --> 00:30:14,010
feelings for them are not
entirely negative, right, some

473
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,010
obligation when we're talking
about them to say something

474
00:30:17,070 --> 00:30:24,980
respectful, right. That and
there is a book by David Boonen,

475
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,860
philosopher in Colorado, called
"Dead Wrong. And Boonen argues

476
00:30:31,010 --> 00:30:33,560
that we have a number of
obligations toward the to the

477
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,670
dead, and he uses an analogy,
which I think is a really

478
00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:42,880
interesting one. He said, "Look,
suppose it was the case that

479
00:30:43,390 --> 00:30:47,740
somebody is, say, in a long-term
relationship with someone else.

480
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,030
Let's say they're married, or
the and the person that, and I'm

481
00:30:52,090 --> 00:30:55,870
going to use he and she just to
to make it easier for the

482
00:30:55,900 --> 00:31:00,510
example. So, so he's married to
her. She has had a series of

483
00:31:00,660 --> 00:31:05,040
affairs that he doesn't know
about, never knows about, never

484
00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:10,620
finds out about. It violated
their understanding, but he

485
00:31:10,740 --> 00:31:16,320
never found out about it. And
and Boonen says, "Look, would we

486
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:22,370
say that his life went worse?
Now, if we take a purely

487
00:31:22,550 --> 00:31:25,790
subjective view, his life didn't
go worse because he never knew.

488
00:31:27,050 --> 00:31:30,560
But if we say, "Look, there's
something about that that

489
00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:34,610
diminishes the relationship, and
in that way diminishes his life,

490
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:40,400
right? Then we say there's there
that that our experience doesn't

491
00:31:40,550 --> 00:31:44,380
simply reduce to the subjective
experience. There's something

492
00:31:45,310 --> 00:31:48,010
outside our subjective
experience that contributes to

493
00:31:48,460 --> 00:31:53,860
making our life go better or
worse. Right now, if if we

494
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:57,760
ratify that, and I think Woonin
is right here, then you can see

495
00:31:57,910 --> 00:32:02,550
the translation over into into
the past, people who've died,

496
00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:08,520
right? That if if that their
lives can go a bit have, I want

497
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,200
to be careful about how I put
this. Their lives might have

498
00:32:13,410 --> 00:32:20,370
gone worse, right, or will have
gone worse if we disrespect them

499
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:25,640
afterwards, right? Even though
they won't experience it, right?

500
00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:29,270
There's still something about
that, right? That diminishes

501
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:37,850
their life, right? And and this
also goes weirdly to the climate

502
00:32:37,910 --> 00:32:44,560
crisis, right? Right. So I'm a
boomer, right? We are the worst

503
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:47,650
generation on the climate
crisis. We complete, and I will

504
00:32:47,770 --> 00:32:49,930
say this when I teach. I teach
climate crisis a lot to my

505
00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:53,440
students, right? We really
screwed it up, right? We we we

506
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:58,450
had the opportunity. We messed
it up, right? We knew, right?

507
00:32:58,570 --> 00:33:01,050
But we didn't take care. And I
won't get into the history of

508
00:33:01,050 --> 00:33:07,410
why we knew and the dates and
stuff, but we knew. Let's say

509
00:33:07,620 --> 00:33:14,610
Gen Z, right, or Gen Alpha comes
along, and everybody from the

510
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:21,860
Boomer generation dies, and
people in say Gen Alpha or Gen

511
00:33:22,010 --> 00:33:28,310
Beta, people resent us. Right,
they're angry at us for what

512
00:33:28,370 --> 00:33:31,670
we've we've done. I think that
diminishes us, even if we're not

513
00:33:31,790 --> 00:33:36,050
there. Right, that diminishes
our generation. It diminishes

514
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:43,150
the lives of people in our
generation. So the what it's a

515
00:33:43,270 --> 00:33:49,120
it's a weird kind of backwards
causality, right? But I I think

516
00:33:49,420 --> 00:33:53,290
that actually when you reflect
on it, it makes some sense. All

517
00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:57,100
of which is to say, right, that
I think that there can be

518
00:33:57,250 --> 00:34:01,470
decency and indecency toward
people in the past, people whose

519
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,680
lives are are no longer there,
and of course, you know, a lot

520
00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:08,010
of indigenous groups, right,
already recognize that they they

521
00:34:08,190 --> 00:34:12,390
see themselves as connected to
their ancestors and needing to

522
00:34:12,420 --> 00:34:17,220
respect their ancestors, and I
and I think that's a more say a

523
00:34:17,310 --> 00:34:22,700
more spiritual expression of
something that that captures a

524
00:34:22,730 --> 00:34:25,940
phenomenon that I think is there
for us. Again, I didn't discuss

525
00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:29,840
in the book. I didn't think I've
thought about this more since

526
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,270
then. But I think you're right
in asking the question.

527
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,540
PJ Wehry: Yeah, I had Joel
Harrington on. I'm hoping to

528
00:34:35,570 --> 00:34:38,930
have him back on sometime in the
upcoming months, and he's a

529
00:34:39,020 --> 00:34:42,700
historian, and his main focus in
history is to humanize the past.

530
00:34:43,060 --> 00:34:48,640
So that was, anyways, that's a
and your one. Your answer was

531
00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:51,940
great. Thank you. And it's
really interesting to see it

532
00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:55,510
translated across disciplines to
hear like the similarities, but

533
00:34:55,540 --> 00:34:57,610
also like the different
argumentation. So I really

534
00:34:57,610 --> 00:35:07,050
appreciate it. So then, how? And
this is interesting. I think the

535
00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:09,930
coffee, the coffee thing is
still sticking with me. But the

536
00:35:11,850 --> 00:35:15,840
do you get a lot of pushback on
the non-human animals part, or

537
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:19,620
do you feel like that is
something that most people

538
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,020
understand? And what is your
main focus in when you're

539
00:35:24,110 --> 00:35:26,030
talking in that chapter about
non-human animals?

540
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:30,560
Unknown: Okay, so the focus is
on you know on our relationship,

541
00:35:30,860 --> 00:35:33,350
and there are these various
debates that have occurred. So

542
00:35:33,410 --> 00:35:38,780
there's one position that I have
some sympathy with is called

543
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,150
moral individualism, right? And
moral individualism is the view

544
00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:47,950
that you that you treat each
creature not according to its

545
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:54,250
species but according to its
particular abilities. And Peter

546
00:35:54,370 --> 00:35:59,920
Singer is an example of a moral
individualist. And the the one

547
00:36:00,370 --> 00:36:05,940
of the implications of that is
that the experience of, say, an

548
00:36:06,030 --> 00:36:11,550
adult chimpanzee can be as rich
as the experience of, say, a

549
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:16,170
three-year-old human, which
means, and this is his argument,

550
00:36:16,590 --> 00:36:19,410
we shouldn't do anything to a
chimpanzee that we wouldn't be

551
00:36:19,530 --> 00:36:22,040
willing to do to the
three-year-old, right now, some

552
00:36:22,070 --> 00:36:24,980
people say that that involves
cruelty to the three-year-old,

553
00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:27,410
but I think that's getting the
argument the wrong way around,

554
00:36:27,740 --> 00:36:27,860
right?

555
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:28,220
PJ Wehry: Yes,

556
00:36:28,610 --> 00:36:31,310
Unknown: right. I think, but I
don't think that's where he's

557
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,290
headed, right? But

558
00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:34,850
PJ Wehry: start using
three-year-olds for

559
00:36:34,850 --> 00:36:36,470
experimentation. Yeah, I don't
think that was

560
00:36:36,590 --> 00:36:36,680
Unknown: his

561
00:36:36,980 --> 00:36:37,100
PJ Wehry: point.

562
00:36:37,460 --> 00:36:40,630
Unknown: Exactly. Although he
hasn't always been on good on

563
00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:45,490
disability, but we'll put that
one to the side, right? But in

564
00:36:45,490 --> 00:36:47,800
any of this, that's that's
that's moral individual, and I

565
00:36:47,860 --> 00:36:51,190
have I have some sympathy with
that. I don't think I've thought

566
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:54,340
it through enough to say how
much I ratify, but I think

567
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,170
there's there seems something
right about that position. The

568
00:36:59,830 --> 00:37:02,310
of course there are
complications in trying to

569
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:05,880
compare the richness of
something in one species versus

570
00:37:05,970 --> 00:37:09,750
the richness of a life in
another species. But I think

571
00:37:09,930 --> 00:37:13,740
that that in this very difficult
terrain, right? I think that

572
00:37:13,890 --> 00:37:17,910
stakes out a place that that has
has some significance, right?

573
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,970
Now, having said that, I haven't
gotten a lot of pushback, PJ.

574
00:37:23,810 --> 00:37:28,310
But I teach at Warren Wilson.
Warren Wilson is a college that

575
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:30,800
is well to the left, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

576
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:30,860
PJ Wehry: yeah.

577
00:37:32,959 --> 00:37:38,929
Unknown: And but I have gotten I
have gotten pushback from a

578
00:37:39,049 --> 00:37:44,829
couple of students at Warren
Wilson in denying that trees

579
00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:50,529
have the right neural structure
to feel pain, right? Right. So

580
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:51,460
PJ Wehry: yeah, yeah, yeah,

581
00:37:51,940 --> 00:37:53,980
Unknown: yeah. Like if I'm
getting pushback, I'm getting

582
00:37:54,010 --> 00:37:55,120
pushback from the other end.

583
00:37:56,020 --> 00:37:56,620
PJ Wehry: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

584
00:37:57,790 --> 00:38:04,650
Unknown: But I, I, I think that
most people. Let me be careful.

585
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,830
I think that a lot people,
certainly a lot more people,

586
00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:12,600
have come to realize the
richness of our fellow

587
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:16,350
creatures. Many of our fellow
creatures over the last, say,

588
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,440
1015, 20 years, and as that
richness has been recognized, I

589
00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:25,820
think that what I'm saying,
although people might not agree

590
00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:31,160
with it in in in total, but it's
going to resonate for them to

591
00:38:31,310 --> 00:38:32,090
one extent or another.

592
00:38:33,110 --> 00:38:35,930
PJ Wehry: Yeah, and I I sense
that from at least from when I

593
00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:38,240
was a kid, the way that people
talked about animals, I think

594
00:38:38,270 --> 00:38:42,130
there's a more awareness, and I
and if you talk at an abstract

595
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,450
level, I generally find people
agree. It's when you start you

596
00:38:46,510 --> 00:38:48,130
start saying, "Well, we
shouldn't be doing this, and

597
00:38:48,130 --> 00:38:51,970
people are like, "But I like
that, you know. It's like, but

598
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,600
that's that's very common in
morality, and it it takes time,

599
00:38:55,660 --> 00:38:58,630
I think, for the the abstract to
filter down. If that

600
00:38:59,260 --> 00:39:01,410
Unknown: also there's
complications here, PJ. So, for

601
00:39:01,770 --> 00:39:06,930
instance, right? I mean, farm
factory farm maniples involve

602
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:13,830
just scads of cruelty, all kinds
of cruelty, right? Yes. But if

603
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,970
we stop tomorrow, right? There
are people who live in food

604
00:39:18,030 --> 00:39:22,130
deserts who won't be able to
afford to buy food, right? Yeah,

605
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:26,810
right. Because the the food they
buy has to be cheap enough, and

606
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:31,610
factory farming is what makes
animals cheap enough for them to

607
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,470
be able to afford them, right?
So the these issues in the

608
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:40,130
abstract, I think we can agree
to the principles, and I think

609
00:39:40,190 --> 00:39:44,440
we should, but I think it also
becomes more complicated how you

610
00:39:44,620 --> 00:39:48,490
translate the abstract into
concrete policy.

611
00:39:49,870 --> 00:39:55,270
PJ Wehry: Well, changes to the
system often will involve some

612
00:39:55,390 --> 00:39:57,940
small sacrifices for those who
are doing well in the system,

613
00:39:58,030 --> 00:40:03,180
but they often involve hardship
for. Those like a lot of, I've

614
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,280
heard people talking about this
with climate change and what we

615
00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:10,770
should be telling India to do,
and it's like, like I the us

616
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,800
giving up things here in the
West are very different from

617
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:19,500
like the the certain parts of
India and their reliance on

618
00:40:19,620 --> 00:40:25,520
coal, for example, like that,
are radically bettering their

619
00:40:25,610 --> 00:40:28,490
lives in ways that we just take
for granted. Is that

620
00:40:29,179 --> 00:40:31,009
Unknown: that's that's the same
kind of thing, yeah.

621
00:40:34,129 --> 00:40:39,289
PJ Wehry: And so, and you know,
not. I love to end an interview

622
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:42,429
on something just like not
controversial at all. Your your

623
00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:47,589
last chapter before you kind of
sum it all up is on politics and

624
00:40:47,649 --> 00:40:51,759
decency, and it's really it's
interesting that you get more

625
00:40:51,879 --> 00:40:56,559
pushback from the the left. I
live in Central Florida, so my

626
00:40:56,709 --> 00:41:02,609
my conversations are very very
different. But when you talk

627
00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:07,019
about politics and decency, what
does decency look like in the

628
00:41:07,259 --> 00:41:10,649
political structure? And is
there? And I think what you're

629
00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:13,469
talking about for for the rest
of you know morality for the

630
00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:13,889
rest of

631
00:41:14,669 --> 00:41:14,909
Unknown: us. Yeah,

632
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:17,190
PJ Wehry: it seems to be what
does what does politics look

633
00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:20,010
like at the the neighborhood
level, at the at the city level,

634
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,660
at the hey, I get to vote once
every four years, and I mean,

635
00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:26,240
how powerful is that vote,
anyways? Those kinds of

636
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:26,720
questions.

637
00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:30,979
Unknown: Yeah, and and I think
this is very specific to the

638
00:41:32,059 --> 00:41:35,989
kinds of situations people find
themselves in, right? Right. We

639
00:41:35,989 --> 00:41:39,229
we talked earlier about the
issue of ice and and the climate

640
00:41:39,259 --> 00:41:45,639
crisis, And it's it's not that
everybody needs to drop what

641
00:41:45,699 --> 00:41:49,449
they're doing, right, and then
throw themselves into into

642
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:53,139
politics. I've done a lot of
organizing, and and I've done a

643
00:41:53,229 --> 00:41:57,429
lot of grassroots organizing
training. And one of the things

644
00:41:57,549 --> 00:42:03,029
I said, you'll be unsurprised to
hear that after November of

645
00:42:03,059 --> 00:42:12,539
2016, I was asked to do a lot of
organizing training, and and so

646
00:42:13,229 --> 00:42:16,709
when I did the training, one of
the things that that I brought

647
00:42:16,769 --> 00:42:20,219
up before people was: look,
Trump's going to do something

648
00:42:20,369 --> 00:42:24,709
outrageous or say something
every day, right? Yep. And if

649
00:42:24,949 --> 00:42:28,639
you and if you follow, you're
going to burn out if you get

650
00:42:28,849 --> 00:42:32,389
outraged every time this
happens. So what you should

651
00:42:32,449 --> 00:42:36,499
probably do is think, okay,
what's an important political

652
00:42:36,619 --> 00:42:43,059
element or political campaign to
engage, and how many hours do I?

653
00:42:43,809 --> 00:42:49,179
And say take those couple hours
a week, right, and just do that

654
00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:53,139
thing that will make that
particular issue better, right?

655
00:42:53,919 --> 00:42:58,809
That seems to me an aspect of
decency. I will say, right, that

656
00:42:58,929 --> 00:43:04,649
when I was doing those trainings
in 2017 and in 2018, I ended by

657
00:43:04,769 --> 00:43:09,419
saying, "Look, if if you do
this, right, four years from

658
00:43:09,479 --> 00:43:14,579
now, right, you'll he'll be gone
and you'll still be here. Boy,

659
00:43:14,759 --> 00:43:15,299
was I wrong!

660
00:43:17,759 --> 00:43:21,229
PJ Wehry: Well, kind of, because
we had the anyways. That's all

661
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:25,159
over the place. Yeah, it's it's
been a wild ride.

662
00:43:27,259 --> 00:43:31,579
Unknown: Yeah, and I did. And I
I did spend 31 years in the

663
00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:34,189
upstate of South Carolina, so I
do know what you're talking

664
00:43:34,189 --> 00:43:35,089
about. It was Central Florida.

665
00:43:35,870 --> 00:43:42,370
PJ Wehry: Yes, yes, yes. It's
very yes, and I lived in in

666
00:43:42,580 --> 00:43:45,670
Wisconsin, and I you know I've
spent time in New England, and

667
00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:50,380
yeah, I one of the things I've
enjoyed about the World Cup is

668
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,370
watching Europeans realize how
big America is, and I think one

669
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,760
of the things that Americans
sometimes don't realize unless

670
00:43:57,850 --> 00:44:00,870
they do travel and just spend
time in this place is like just

671
00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:05,910
how different the culture is,
and I I think that idea of the

672
00:44:06,330 --> 00:44:11,400
idea of decency is a is a
helpful. I don't know that it's

673
00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:17,160
healthy to take a moral exemplar
in North Carolina or in New

674
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,380
England and transplant it to
Florida. It would be a very

675
00:44:21,860 --> 00:44:25,880
different. It would work itself
out differently. Is that a fair

676
00:44:25,970 --> 00:44:26,780
way to think about this?

677
00:44:27,140 --> 00:44:28,670
Unknown: I think that's right.
That's and that's where the

678
00:44:29,330 --> 00:44:32,180
particularly in talking about
politics, where the the local

679
00:44:32,270 --> 00:44:33,290
character of this comes in.

680
00:44:36,770 --> 00:44:39,410
PJ Wehry: Now, and so you end
with our stories and our values,

681
00:44:39,530 --> 00:44:46,060
and that's kind of besides your
amazing list of nine strictly

682
00:44:46,810 --> 00:44:50,080
strict and without exception
rules, you talk about our

683
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,770
stories and our values. How does
that help us kind of sum all

684
00:44:53,860 --> 00:44:55,060
this up?

685
00:44:55,180 --> 00:45:01,110
Unknown: Well, we we often tell
stories about our. Right, we're

686
00:45:02,580 --> 00:45:05,490
mostly narrative type creatures.
There, there, there, there are

687
00:45:05,580 --> 00:45:08,730
people who are exceptions.
There's a fluster, Galen

688
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:12,330
Strawson, who wrote a book
against narrativity, just saying

689
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:19,830
that we don't have to be
narrative, right? But, but we we

690
00:45:19,830 --> 00:45:23,960
we tell stories, and in telling
those stories, oftentimes our

691
00:45:24,020 --> 00:45:28,640
values come out, and this often
gives us a chance to reflect on

692
00:45:28,670 --> 00:45:34,160
those values. to To say, look,
right, this story that I told

693
00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:38,210
you reveals aspects of me that I
might or might not want to

694
00:45:38,930 --> 00:45:44,440
endorse as mine, but they are
expressions of things that I

695
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:51,280
value. I I can't remember if I
used the example of the car

696
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:54,550
pulling out in front of me
slowly. I I know I've used it.

697
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:57,490
Did I use that in the book? I
don't

698
00:45:57,580 --> 00:45:57,790
PJ Wehry: remember.

699
00:45:58,420 --> 00:46:00,190
Unknown: Okay, I can't remember
the use of them because I was I

700
00:46:00,190 --> 00:46:04,860
remember talking about this
around that time, but the so I

701
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:10,830
was driving home from the gym.
This was in South Carolina, and

702
00:46:10,860 --> 00:46:15,120
this car pulls out very slowly
in front of me, and I have to I

703
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,320
have to slam on my brakes,
right? And the car just keeps

704
00:46:19,380 --> 00:46:24,080
going slowly on the road, and I
hit the horn, right? And I

705
00:46:24,290 --> 00:46:29,090
don't, I, I, the horn stays on.
I, I, I kept the horn on the

706
00:46:29,330 --> 00:46:34,310
whole time. This guy's on the
road, right? And I came home and

707
00:46:34,370 --> 00:46:38,510
I told, I this guy did this, and
I kept the horn on him the whole

708
00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:41,950
time, and sort of thought about
it later, and I thought, you

709
00:46:41,980 --> 00:46:46,390
know, this kind of macho value
here that I'm expressing is not

710
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,440
something that I actually should
be proud of, right? But I was

711
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:57,280
expressing a value, right? That
that I was actually I was

712
00:46:57,310 --> 00:47:01,630
expressing the value in in
laying on the horn, right? Yeah,

713
00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:05,490
and and that was a value that I
don't think I really should have

714
00:47:05,550 --> 00:47:09,990
been expressing. Right, so
oftentimes the ways in which we

715
00:47:10,110 --> 00:47:13,950
talk about ourselves reveal the
kinds of things that we value.

716
00:47:14,670 --> 00:47:18,780
So in being curious, sometimes
we ought to be curious about our

717
00:47:18,810 --> 00:47:21,920
own stories and what and what
those stories are saying about

718
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,910
PJ Wehry: us? Do you think
there's value even as you?

719
00:47:27,740 --> 00:47:29,780
Sometimes it just becomes
apparent as you tell the story

720
00:47:29,900 --> 00:47:32,840
and saying it out loud to
somebody and having is is a

721
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:36,380
great thing. And there's also,
as you were talking, I think

722
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:39,290
about retelling the story from a
different perspective. How does

723
00:47:39,380 --> 00:47:44,170
that make me look? Is that is
that useful? Is that useful as

724
00:47:44,260 --> 00:47:44,410
well?

725
00:47:45,339 --> 00:47:47,709
Unknown: Yeah, yeah, right,
right. Oh, you're right, right.

726
00:47:47,889 --> 00:47:50,859
I mean, this is the idea. Like,
okay, when you're talking to

727
00:47:50,889 --> 00:47:54,069
somebody and you ask them, well,
okay, if somebody did that to

728
00:47:54,189 --> 00:47:58,659
you, right, what would that be
like for you, right? All right,

729
00:47:58,779 --> 00:48:01,619
and that's switching to the
outside perspective, right, and

730
00:48:01,709 --> 00:48:05,429
looking at yourself, right, from
the outside and telling telling

731
00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:06,719
the story differently. Yeah.

732
00:48:08,130 --> 00:48:10,800
PJ Wehry: Well, so even and I
appreciate your vulnerability,

733
00:48:10,890 --> 00:48:14,700
including the story about laying
on the horn. But like from the

734
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,520
other person's perspective, was
that likely to you know it's

735
00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:20,130
like it's like you're driving
along and you've you've made a

736
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,090
mistake and you're going very
slow for some unknown reason,

737
00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:27,080
and someone just lays on the
horn. How does that, you know,

738
00:48:27,470 --> 00:48:30,680
does that does that cause you to
change? I yeah. So to be

739
00:48:30,830 --> 00:48:33,380
vulnerable with you, this is a
this is a constant struggle for

740
00:48:33,410 --> 00:48:37,910
me in traffic of like people cut
me off, and then I'm like, I

741
00:48:37,970 --> 00:48:41,080
start thinking about how I
could, you know, I get angry,

742
00:48:41,290 --> 00:48:43,720
and then I'm like, "How could I?
You know, what what could I do?

743
00:48:44,170 --> 00:48:47,020
And I'm like, "There's no
there's no scenario where I can

744
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,780
communicate with that person
that ends well, right? It's

745
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,510
like, and so all I'm doing is
I'm just sitting in my in my car

746
00:48:52,540 --> 00:48:55,420
and fuming, right? Like at least
I know well enough not to like

747
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:58,150
get you know pull over with
them, get out of the car, talk

748
00:48:58,180 --> 00:48:59,080
to them. You know, you see,
like,

749
00:49:00,249 --> 00:49:00,309
Unknown: yeah,

750
00:49:00,699 --> 00:49:03,869
PJ Wehry: that's that's that's
unhealthy. But to sit there and

751
00:49:03,899 --> 00:49:05,729
be like, well, they really
shouldn't do that, and it's

752
00:49:05,729 --> 00:49:08,369
like, okay, and now what? And
I'm like, well, and I'm just

753
00:49:08,429 --> 00:49:10,859
fuming with my kids in the car,
and they're watching me do that,

754
00:49:11,339 --> 00:49:11,489
right?

755
00:49:12,299 --> 00:49:12,359
Unknown: Yeah,

756
00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:16,200
PJ Wehry: it's like I was like,
is that wait? It's like I I just

757
00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:16,860
look like an idiot.

758
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:21,710
Unknown: Yeah, yeah, you know,
and in a case like this, right,

759
00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:26,360
like, like you know, hitting the
horn is something they should

760
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,940
have done, not just out of my
irritation, but they made a

761
00:49:28,970 --> 00:49:31,730
dangerous move. Like, so you
say, look, that was dangerous,

762
00:49:32,180 --> 00:49:32,360
right?

763
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:32,810
PJ Wehry: Oh yes,

764
00:49:34,250 --> 00:49:36,500
Unknown: and but you know,
there's there's a limit, right?

765
00:49:37,070 --> 00:49:38,960
Right. Plus, it's South
Carolina. Half the people

766
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,630
driving in front of me have guns
anyway.

767
00:49:42,399 --> 00:49:54,279
PJ Wehry: Yes, very much so.
Wait, yes. So I wanted to ask

768
00:49:54,279 --> 00:49:56,529
you about the nine rules, but I
think that that's just something

769
00:49:56,619 --> 00:50:00,989
that someone should read your
book and enjoy. And think about

770
00:50:01,229 --> 00:50:04,379
whether they should put napkins
on people's coffee or not. But

771
00:50:07,290 --> 00:50:09,060
Unknown: if people take away
nothing from this book, they

772
00:50:09,180 --> 00:50:09,750
really should think

773
00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:20,960
PJ Wehry: about the. Is besides
my and I apologize because I did

774
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,560
the I have the Kindle, so I
don't have the the beautiful

775
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,320
yeah. So I don't get you know
it's it's not the same showing

776
00:50:27,380 --> 00:50:29,420
the audience and being like hey
look you can get on Kindle but

777
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:34,640
um so besides buying and reading
your excellent book which

778
00:50:34,730 --> 00:50:35,240
everyone should do

779
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:36,320
Unknown: thank you

780
00:50:36,530 --> 00:50:39,140
PJ Wehry: what is something what
is something that you would

781
00:50:39,230 --> 00:50:42,280
recommend that people do in
response, or they should

782
00:50:42,370 --> 00:50:45,010
meditate on over the next week
in response to this conversation

783
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:45,280
we've had.

784
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,669
Unknown: I guess there's there's
lots of things you could

785
00:50:53,379 --> 00:51:00,489
recommend, but one thing, and
this doesn't this isn't like of

786
00:51:00,609 --> 00:51:03,869
greater importance than others,
but I think it's one thing that

787
00:51:03,929 --> 00:51:08,849
we often forget to do, which is
to look at people, right? To

788
00:51:09,059 --> 00:51:14,729
look to look at their faces, and
I think it's easier to see the

789
00:51:14,789 --> 00:51:18,509
humanity there if you actually
look at their faces. So that's

790
00:51:18,539 --> 00:51:20,519
something that people can think
about, right?

791
00:51:20,970 --> 00:51:23,900
PJ Wehry: Yes. Which is is that
the first or the second rule?

792
00:51:24,110 --> 00:51:26,990
It's it's one of the one of your
first rules. I really love that.

793
00:51:27,290 --> 00:51:27,380
But

794
00:51:27,380 --> 00:51:29,360
Unknown: the idea of just
looking at somebody, I think, is

795
00:51:29,450 --> 00:51:34,730
really is really important,
right? And you know, somebody

796
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,880
who is unhoused, right? Somebody
who you're irritated with,

797
00:51:40,250 --> 00:51:42,730
somebody who might need some
help crossing the street,

798
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,000
whatever. But but to look at
look look into people's faces, I

799
00:51:46,090 --> 00:51:51,280
think is is a good practice. I
don't do it enough myself, but I

800
00:51:51,370 --> 00:51:53,050
try I try to try myself to do it
more.

801
00:51:55,300 --> 00:51:58,390
PJ Wehry: A great and practical
answer, and I think a great

802
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:03,570
start to being truly decent,
Todd, Dr. May. Absolute joy

803
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:04,800
having you on today. Thank you.

804
00:52:05,279 --> 00:52:06,839
Unknown: Well, thanks, B.J.
Thanks, thanks for the

805
00:52:06,899 --> 00:52:08,069
interview. It's been a delight.