Real Progress VS Busy Work with Tim Herbig: how to connect strategy, the right metrics and discovery to build what you want - Impactful Products, Beach Body or Meaningful Life.

WEBVTT
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:14.080
Hello and welcome back to another episode of ChangeWhy Podcast.
00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:15.919
My name is Angela Shorina.
00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:16.640
I'm your host.
00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:23.839
I'm your partner in change, personal and collective evolution, and your executive coach at 360.
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:26.879
And today I have a treat for you.
00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:41.759
Yes, we have another guest on Change Wire Podcast, Tim Herbeck, who writes about product strategy, building software, setting all the art, one might say pretty niche and boring stuff.
00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:52.399
But as you sort of listen to this podcast, you hopefully start thinking as I did, wait, this isn't just about products.
00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:54.399
This is about everything.
00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:55.679
This is about life.
00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:07.840
How we set goals, how we know if we're actually moving forward or going in circles, how we avoid fooling ourselves into thinking we're making progress when we are really just busy.
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:18.159
I wanted to have a team on Changewire Podcast because it's figure out a really cool framework for making real progress.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:23.280
Not just in building products, but in anything you are trying to transform.
00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:30.719
It all comes down to three things working together strategy, metrics, and discovery.
00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:42.640
And we're gonna dive into what those words mean and how you can apply it, not just again to building products or services, but strategy for anything you want to change in life.
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:47.439
Tim shows how these concepts are supposed to talk to each other.
00:01:49.359 --> 00:02:00.400
If you're leading any kind of change in your team, in your organization, your own life, you'll hear something that shifts how you think about getting from here to there.
00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:14.719
Tim spent over a decade working in product management before becoming a coach and a consultant, and now a published author of the book Real Progress that we are talking about on this podcast.
00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:23.120
He also writes a weekly newsletter that you actually want to read because it brings value with every word.
00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:28.000
This conversation goes deep into details, but it always stays practical.
00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:37.599
We talk about AI, we talk about beach buddies, we talk about why best practices might be the very thing that's holding you back.
00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:45.599
So grab your drink of choice, find your favorite listening spot, and let's dive in.
00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:52.000
This is Changewired, and today we are talking about making real progress.
00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.879
Progress that makes some impact.
00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:58.479
Team, uh, welcome to Changewired Podcast.
00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:00.319
So glad to have you here.
00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:02.080
Thank you for having me.
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:10.719
Yes, you know, I was very excited to invite you to the podcast after reading a couple of your articles, reading your book, exploring your work.
00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:24.240
One of the biggest reasons is because on this podcast, Changewired, we are passionate about change, evolution, uh collective unlocking of more of our potential.
00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:35.199
And any sort of directed evolution and development or change not possible without a good strategy.
00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:46.319
B some sort of metrics, and C discovery process in such you know complex thing as our life or our businesses.
00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:53.759
And when I was reading your book and your articles, I'm like, yeah, this is about product and and building things, services or product.
00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:58.400
But then it also feels like it's so relatable to life in general.
00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:01.919
And and I'm curious, yeah, did you have this?
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:08.400
I don't know, were you thinking also about maybe bigger theme of your book, not just the scope of it?
00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:10.319
That's a really good question.
00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:14.240
I don't think I consciously, I would say I probably didn't do it consciously.
00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:17.360
And now that you're laying it out, I think it makes a lot of sense.
00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:31.279
The the thing that I use as a as a pattern in the book, and I think this is true for a lot of other things, is when I when I work with clients and they tell me about a different way of working, the different thing they want to establish.
00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:36.800
What I encourage them to do is to think of the way of working like a product.
00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:40.879
So basically, what's the vision for this way of working?
00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.199
Like how do you want people to behave differently?
00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:47.759
What are the levers you would pull, your strategy to implement this kind of change?
00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.560
How would you track whether you've achieved this change or not?
00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:56.800
And then, of course, very much connected is to identify the levers you would use to get closer to the vision.
00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:58.639
Like what kind of problems are you trying to solve?
00:04:58.720 --> 00:04:58.959
Yeah.
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:10.959
And so I think in that regard, uh if I can apply this kind of trinity, so to speak, to if I can apply this to ways of working, I think it's very much applicable to other things in life as well.
00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:15.600
Yes, because at the end of the day, no matter what we're trying to achieve, it's uh it's a project.
00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.040
One might say it's some kind of product.
00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:19.920
Yeah, exactly.
00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:20.720
A journey.
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:33.439
And unless you want your journey to be like very chaotic and never sure where it is you're gonna end up, then you gotta have some strategy to to get you to a specific destination.
00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:36.079
Um let's leave that for a moment.
00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:38.959
Uh we're gonna get again to your book very soon.
00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:44.079
Um I'd like to know, as our listeners probably too, where did it all start?
00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:57.519
Like I know you you spent quite a lot of to quite a huge chunk of your life in product, uh, in different roles, but then maybe even earlier, like how did this whole passion for product development and your work now start it?
00:05:58.480 --> 00:05:59.519
That's a really good question.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:03.680
I think the like like many people, I I stumbled into product management.
00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:09.040
In 2010, I worked at a company at a marketing agency, and they built an internal tool.
00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:13.680
And someone was, we gotta use Scrum now to build this, like an agile methodology.
00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:15.279
And you're gonna be the product owner.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:16.800
I had no idea what that meant.
00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.279
I think, frankly, neither did the company in full.
00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.800
And so we tried to figure that out, but it didn't really work out that well.
00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:31.519
But the thing that I always had always already back then is I I would say I always had a strong affinity for digital products.
00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:33.920
Like I liked using nice things.
00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.279
And so I always am very, very curious.
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:44.480
And so when I started to work in this in this company back then, I worked a lot on mobile advertising technologies, for example.
00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:51.519
And I I quickly found myself having more thoughts about this topic than I could share at work.
00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:58.319
So I was looking for other outlets to share that because I am a I'm a very I I process with writing.
00:06:58.639 --> 00:06:59.759
It's just power thick.
00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:06.319
And so I was looking for outlets to write about these thoughts that I had, about how things were related and certain methodologies and everything.
00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:08.720
And I quickly started to write on another blog.
00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:12.639
And then from that, writing became a very natural habit of me, uh, of my work.
00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:18.959
And so over time, I think back in 2012, 2013, and then turned my attention even more to writing about product management.
00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:26.480
Not with a specific goal even in mind, but just for me to process the things I experienced throughout the week or throughout the months at work.
00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:32.160
And I like to joke that I think in 2016 I started writing a weekly newsletter, which I still keep going to this day.
00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:35.199
And people always ask me, how do I come up with ideas?
00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.959
And the most honest answers, it's the experiences throughout the week.
00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:46.079
Like most of the time, the thing I'm I'm writing about is related to something I experienced the previous week.
00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:48.079
And um, I have that at the same time.
00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:59.120
Like I think as in other areas of life, whenever I get to experience something, like my favorite way of processing it is writing it down either in a notebook or writing it in a WhatsApp message to a friend, for example.
00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:03.040
Yes, it's uh yeah, I love reading your newsletters by the way.
00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:13.199
That's uh one of those newsletters where you actually get value and it makes you think differently and makes you learn, and it very much feels like a lived experience.
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:19.600
Yeah, it's yes, it's yeah, I can so relate also to thinking through writing.
00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:21.439
That's why I also have daily blog.
00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:33.759
It's like every day I have something that I am thinking about, and so in writing, it's like putting it the into something you can see and then deconstructing and thinking deeper about different concepts.
00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:41.840
Yes, so that that's you know how your interest in product developed in writing and moving forward.
00:08:41.919 --> 00:09:05.039
How did your interest maybe start in developing for this like a specific combination of I guess I'm not sure if it's product strategy, product building, like how did you combine strategy and goals and discovery that into this you know beautiful process that has these uh three elements?
00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:07.519
Yeah, it's an interesting organic journey, I would say.
00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:18.240
I think uh when I worked as an in-house product manager and head of product, I always enjoyed the I enjoyed many parts of my work, but I definitely had a big knack for for the discovery aspect.
00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:24.480
Like I enjoyed understanding things through qualitative research, quantitative research.
00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:29.200
Like I'm fortunate that interviewing customers always came relatively easy to me.
00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:32.320
Doesn't mean I'm always always good at it, but it came easy to me.
00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:34.799
So I enjoyed that part and untangling things.
00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:37.759
So discovery always felt like a very natural thing.
00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:48.799
And the big like metrics or OKRs came in a bit of a sneaky way because in in 20, I think 2015, 2016, I the company I worked at, I got a new boss.
00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:58.720
And then on the reflection of this transition, I learned that our boss previously had used some version of OKRs with us, which sparked my curiosity about OKRs as a framework.
00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:02.159
And then I got into it and realized, oh, that's that's actually interesting.
00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:09.120
And then I got very curious of how to put that into practice over the years and tried to implement it in various different teams that I that I had to use.
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:21.600
I would say that one of the biggest tipping points that led me to this like this trinity kind of um focus for me came from when in 2016 I changed jobs, I almost accidentally joined a consultancy.
00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:25.039
It was supposed to be a different kind of company, but became a consultancy.
00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:38.960
And what I found myself having to do after having worked for years only with other product people is now having to adjust how I explain the things that were natural to me to others, to educate them, to actually get them to do the thing differently.
00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.919
And so I had to give workshops and training and coaching just intuitively.
00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:45.840
I never did a training on that.
00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:56.159
And through that, I realized, okay, this is like again, this comes I like to go after things that come easy to me, as in there's a natural pull, a natural, natural gravitation towards.
00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:04.879
And it was around that I found myself getting pulled most often to this topic of problem understanding, measuring success.
00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:12.960
And then eventually, a couple of years later, realized how much like how big the leverage of strategy is on both of these things.
00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:13.279
Right.
00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:17.360
Of course, you can, you don't always have to start there, but the leverage is quite strong.
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:29.360
And so I honestly I ended up doing like I it's this this age-old overlap of like what comes net kind of natural to me, what do I believe is important, and what do I see companies struggle with.
00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:34.480
And then from that, like these are the three core topics that that I sort of like landed on.
00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:45.360
And it's also because I'm convinced that they are so interconnected and that so many of the issues in one domain can be solved or at least guided by these other domains.
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:50.480
Yes, and I love, you know, in your book, you have um this graphic of progress wheel.
00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:50.799
Yeah.
00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:59.519
And certain questions that, or I guess, challenges that people have and the questions that they can ask themselves, and it usually relates to the other area.
00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:01.039
How did that come to be?
00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:04.320
It's when you look at it, it feels so intuitive.
00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:07.039
And then, but coming up with that obviously different.
00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:09.919
In hindsight, everything feels intuitive, right?
00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:18.960
I think the I think when I first started, the funny thing is with the book, I think it took me two years to write the book, but it was very the initial idea, it's very close to the result that I produced, which is cool.
00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:21.519
So I don't have clarity around what I wanted to put in the book.
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.480
So it was more about how do I package it essentially.
00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:30.480
And I had this idea of a wheel kind of framework relatively early on.
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:35.440
And it was inspired by a friend of mine, Petra Wille, who is a fantastic product leadership coach.
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:43.360
And in her first book, she has this tool that she calls the PM wheel, the product manager wheel, which is a different purpose.
00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:47.840
It's a diagnostic tool to help with personal development of product managers.
00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:51.279
So I always thought, like, oh, there's so many canvases already.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:55.440
And like, because the problem for me is that the three domains are not linear.
00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.120
There's not a linear one, two, three steps.
00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:02.720
So I wanted something that was like positioned all of them on an equal level and showcase the non-linearity.
00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:13.200
And actually, then it was, I think it was it was my wife during a family vacation where she basically gave me the core idea of here's all these things, like this the question and connection kind of thing.
00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.000
So that's how I how it came to be.
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:25.120
But it took a long time before I actually got to defining it in detail because I first wanted to write the the three core chapters of the book, so to speak.
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.679
And then I wanted to return to the progress wheel, and then I weaved it into the rest of the book.
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:34.639
Yes, well again, now it all makes sense, but in the insight.
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:45.360
The other uh question I had for you is can you uh define also for our listeners what what for you is strategy?
00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:47.679
So that's the first question.
00:13:47.919 --> 00:14:02.720
And then why do you feel that it is important for people to always connect the strategy, the OKR so metrics that people use to discovery and not treating them as separate entities?
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:04.639
Two really good questions.
00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:10.799
I think the first one the first question is like what is strategy?
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:17.600
I think a couple of years ago I might have pointed to a specific shape of a strategy, a specific way of how it's articulated.
00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:23.840
And the the more I work with the topic, the more I realize how almost irrelevant the actual shape is.
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:30.159
I've seen tremendously clear strategies on one or two pages in a Google Doc.
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:32.080
Just very clearly written out.
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:39.279
I've seen strategies who used a great framework or template, but didn't really convey much.
00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:46.000
And so what I try to always come back to, because I think it's also the problem is that your customers don't really care about your strategy.
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.000
So you're not writing it for your customers.
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:54.240
You're writing it for your team members, your direct reports, whoever you're working with, right?
00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:58.879
So just like a product, when we try to think of a product, it has to work for the audience eventually.
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:06.480
So just like with the strategy, it's like, okay, it has to work for my colleagues, it has to work for Tim in this department or for Andrea in this department, whatever.
00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:12.480
And I think that's the important thing to then reverse engineer it, okay, how in our company, how do we convey strategy?
00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.039
Like what's the format that really sticks in our company?
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.279
It could be a visual framework, it could be a one pager, it could be presentation, whatever it is.
00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:20.879
It doesn't really matter.
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:25.519
Because from then you want to think about, okay, what does it have to achieve for people?
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:27.600
And there are different interpretations.
00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:36.720
Like I'm convinced that the more I work with it, is that the core value it has to provide is to help people say no or yes to certain opportunities.
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:37.039
Right.
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:42.159
So when something comes along your way, you want to be sure that, oh, yeah, I'm going to pursue this, I'm not going to pursue this.
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:51.360
And I think coming backwards from all of that then dictates the shape, what information you put in there, how you put it together, and all that kind of stuff.
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:52.320
That's what I see.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:53.679
That's what I think it has to be.
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:58.080
So always try to work backwards from other certain formats the company has in place.
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:12.879
What's the point if I work with a company and they are very set on a certain framework, how they articulate strategy, but I come in with a different one, and then it might be well articulated, but it fails to convey the message because no one reads it, because it's the wrong format.
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:24.159
So I try to come backwards from that, and I try to marry in a way the format that works in the company and the core questions I believe should be in there, and then try to try to find that overlap.
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.679
To back to your second question, like how these things are connected, right?
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:41.600
I think it's and that's I try to answer that in the progress wheel, is that because I think this the some of the more common questions or struggles you might find in companies of why quote unquote strategy doesn't work, right?
00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:48.720
And I mean there's a I think there's a content aspect that you might have made the wrong choices about your audience, your differentiation, whatever.
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.799
The problem is these things no one knows, anyways, from the get-go, right?
00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:54.000
It's like no one knows it.
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:59.200
So the only thing you can focus on is how can you increase your chances of it succeeding?
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.360
And I think there are two levers that you have, right?
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:13.759
One is, of course, that ideally there's less, fewer parts of your strategy are completely unproven and fully assumed rather than at least informed by some kind of information.
00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:23.039
Doesn't mean you always have to do like a month-long market analysis, but at least that's some kind of informed conviction of like, yeah, here's where we go for this thing.
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:32.240
And it's this informed conviction could be it's because that's what we're uniquely good at as a company, it is what we know our time customers want, it's what showcases our capabilities.
00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:33.680
That's perfectly fine.
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:39.839
And the other aspect is that the execution of that strategy is not aligned with the choice that you made, right?
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:43.359
Yeah, you set the strategy, but you do different things still.
00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:53.119
And I think that's where where metrics can be very helpful, to say, okay, like here are the indicators, the measurable indicators that would help us to see if the strategy has worked or not.
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:59.440
And we we're going to use these measurable indicators to check if the stuff we're doing goes in the right direction.
00:17:59.759 --> 00:17:59.920
Right?
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:06.960
You can say our strategy is to branch into this new market, then you build something, it's like, does it help us branch into this new market?
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:08.240
And you don't really know.
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:19.440
But if you translate branching into this new market in the number of customers from this new industry or retention rate or revenue, then you can check, oh, we launched these five features and we you can link it to these metrics.
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:20.160
Yeah.
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:25.200
So it also reminds me uh so much if there's just like coaching in general.
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:29.599
Let's say someone trying to achieve great health, well, that is their outcome.
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:42.559
So the strategy, well, you gotta have some informed framework for to design the things that you're gonna do that's gonna be immensely helpful instead of just trying a bunch of things that you're not sure of.
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:47.839
And then, so that's you know, the I guess where discovery can also help.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:57.119
Yeah, and and then uh metrics, you gotta uh measure something to figure out if you are actually moving towards that or not moving anywhere.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:57.920
Agreed.
00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:06.720
I think it's it's it's it's it's funny that you bring this up because I think it's one of the easiest examples I often use in workshops to articulate the non-product angle, just to understand the concept, right?
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:11.279
If you say you have something like I want to have a perfect beach buddy by next year, summer, right?
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:13.279
It's like cool, that's maybe where you want to go.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.599
And then you can discuss the strategies to get there, right?
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:17.359
And that depends on the type of person you are.
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.440
Are you, do you enjoy cardio?
00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:20.960
Probably maybe, maybe you don't.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:22.240
Do you enjoy going to the gym?
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.039
Okay, so what what exercise strategy works for you?
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:30.000
What kind of dietary preferences do you naturally have to get into a caloric deficit, for example?
00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.079
Like that could be the some strategies you choose.
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:40.400
And from then you could then set because the metric should not be lose, like have this kind of body fat or this kind of weight in nine months, because that's lagging.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.279
What you need along the way is how often do I work out?
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.480
Do I improve the reps or the the weight and able to lift in the gym?
00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.480
How often do I hit my caloric deficit?
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:49.519
How many steps do I take?
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:55.839
This is the stuff you could track, you could actually use to track your progress along the way and to see if this strategy has worked.
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:04.960
If, for example, you say my dietary preference is trying to do A keto diet, uh, but with a keto diet, I routinely fail to come into caloric deficit.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:06.799
Maybe you need a new diet, right?
00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:08.640
The caloric deficit.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:22.640
So and that also speaks back to the point, like you might have some good strategies that work for somebody, but you might try them and measure things, and it you might find out that it actually doesn't work for you.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:28.640
So it yeah, you know, it's not an indication that the thing is not possible or the strategy doesn't work.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:32.240
It's just the strategy did not work for your specific context.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:32.720
Exactly.
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:38.079
Which you also write a lot about, about you know, contexts and best practices.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:38.559
Yeah.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:44.400
You know, can you maybe exp expand on that, on context, best practices?
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:52.799
And also, I I actually remember I found your work when I read an article about leading and legging indicators.
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:55.119
I think that was like the best article I saved yet.
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:56.880
I'm probably gonna be rereading it.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:02.160
It's the first time I think I really understood the concept and uh how complex it is.
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:09.519
So, could you also explain on that what are some good ways to set the leading and legging indicators?
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:19.200
Because it seems like intuitive some more that leading is something you can you know measure and track every day, legging is something that's more of like delayed.
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:31.519
But then also you explain, for example, that if you work in an organization or what you might have different leading and legging indicators depending on from what side you look at them, like at what level, right?
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:38.160
So love to to hear how yeah, happy to to touch first on the context and practices topic, right?
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:43.680
And I think what I what I often find in my career is like commonly there's this saying about like best practices, right?
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:48.400
And I think the the the issue oftentimes is that the best practices are not contextual, right?
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:48.880
Yeah.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:57.279
I think there's this great quote from James James Keel, who wrote atomic habits, and he said um advice, uh I probably missed this up.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:03.759
He said advice is context-dependent, but questions are context-independent essentially.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:05.200
And I think that's a problem, right?
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:08.960
I can't give people advice across industries, across company sites.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:09.839
Like I just can't.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:11.680
I can't say this is a universal rule.
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:17.680
And so I I started to use the term better practices to acknowledge the context.
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.920
Like it's not about universal best, it's about relatively better.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.839
Like, what does better in your context mean, right?
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:37.839
If a team says, look, if you would say universal advisors, talk to 10 customers every week, but you're a team who does the enterprise level B2B work, you're like, and you talk to no customer right now, you maybe you're really good if you talk to three people every week.
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:39.440
That would be better already, right?
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.640
Compared to trying to chase 10 and you get lost on the journey.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:55.519
I think that's very crucial, as particularly since I in my work, I early on I decided I wanted to stay relatively broad with the type of companies that I work with, not focus on, let's say, I don't know, e-commerce or SaaS.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:59.200
Because I think that a lot of principles are very universally applicable.
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:06.559
And I personally enjoy this challenge of rethinking how do I translate this principle into the tactics required for this team.
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.440
So personal preference to do that.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.960
And then what I did in the book, I worked with these like quality checks and questions.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:21.599
I tried to implement questions on like, yeah, okay, in your context, ask yourself these questions and potentially dig deeper into how could you how to how could you move forward.
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:25.680
Which is such a powerful coaching technique that I loved in your book.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.279
And it was interesting because I had it first in the book and it was in the draft.
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:34.319
I think it was routinely the best, uh the most exciting piece in the book.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:35.839
Beta readers talk about.
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:39.119
Like, like this is good, this is good, but these things, they are great.
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:41.440
I uh I enjoyed that as well.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.599
On top of leading lagging indicators, like this topic first caught my attention.
00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.880
I think in I don't know, I think 2020 or 2019, something like that.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:24:02.960
Because of the product work that I was doing, like I talked a lot about OKRs, and I then you oftentimes have this problem of this misalignment between setting a goal and measuring the goal, but it not being aligned with the cadence of the work of a team.
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:03.359
Yeah.
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:04.960
So you set a very high-level goal.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.799
It's it's like with the beach body we just had.
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:07.920
It's the same problem, right?
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:12.640
Like, how do I know tomorrow that I'm on track to the beach body next summer?
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:15.039
The the way the scale doesn't tell me.
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:15.519
Yeah.
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:17.680
And so that's what sparked my interest.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:25.920
And then I did a bit of research just on the topic because it was not a new term, but I found often that the term was explained very academic in a way.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:40.240
And I think to me, it missed this new young reality of the teams that I got to meet, like this massive reality, just like you said, like you have a team that has an internal customer, external, B2B, or B2C, and they always read these examples.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.119
This is what a leading indicator is, but they could not get these metrics.
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.640
So they were like, we're failing.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:46.240
I was like, that's not true.
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:52.400
Because if you have a metric that is relatively more leading than what your company has, then it is useful for you.
00:24:52.559 --> 00:25:05.839
So I wanted to like part of that, and it's part of that I try to bring more into my content over and over, is I try to produce content in a way that teams who might feel, let's say, underrepresented, feel heard or seen.
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:06.319
Right.
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:11.359
Because I think back to the topic of best practices, a lot of things talk about the great examples out there.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:11.680
Yeah.
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.519
A common example for me is teams who work on internal products, for example.
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:19.839
They oftentimes don't are not represented in most content out there.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:21.839
It's like a couple of years ago with B2B.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:24.160
No one talked about B2B, now people talk more about it.
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:36.160
And I think that's what motivated me to showcase, instead of writing 20 articles for every context, to say, let me try to produce, put it into one approach that people can take into their context.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:38.160
And just showing a few examples.
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:45.200
And yeah, this context of lag and leading indicators is, I love it so much because it's so universal, it's independent of product, as we just established.
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:45.519
Yeah.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.079
And yet, it and it's so powerful, and yet it's often so misunderstood.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:50.799
Yes.
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:57.920
And I was actually looking for you know the information in that when I was working on culture design.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:58.400
Right.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:05.200
Because the problem is there, you have a lot of values or lagging indicators that are very lagging, right?
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:09.680
And you uh need to measure something to make sure that you are moving somewhere.
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:15.680
Otherwise, like a lot of companies end up working for decades on the same thing and not for sure if they moved somewhere.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:19.359
Yeah, and I found that is very useful.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.079
Useful concept strategy, a way to explain it, something that I could also use.
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:28.880
And also love, you know, the concept that you just explained about like better.
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.440
I have this phrase better is always available.
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:40.000
Like you cannot guarantee a lot of things, but if you put intentional action and you measure it to track, you're gonna end up somewhere better.
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:40.960
Exactly.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:42.079
Yeah, agreed.
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:49.200
Or at least you know, you learned something for the next uh so yes, that's again.
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.880
I don't know if you had something here to to add to that.
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:55.920
Or I'm gonna continue with my questions.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:14.319
Another you know thing that came to mind while I was preparing for the interview is this idea of I I love uh how you framed a strategy is ability to say no to a lot of things that uh you know coming from our world, like ideas, we features we can develop.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:29.599
Um but then where do you draw the line between still being adaptable and listening to the signals that it might be the time to either expand your strategy or pivot or change it completely?
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:31.920
Like how do how do you navigate that?
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:33.599
Yeah, I think it's a really good question.
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:36.240
I don't I don't have a universal answer to that, quite frankly.
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:53.359
I think it's what I try to convey in the book, and this is um based on on my my dear colleague Ravi Meta, who who gave me a lot of feedback on the book, where he said, particularly these days, in a like where, for example, at least in the software industry, like the market pace, the change of pace at the box is so dramatic.
00:27:54.559 --> 00:28:03.039
The POV I landed on for now is okay, I think it's still important to have this time horizon of a strategy that looks at least a few more months into the future.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.640
Because again, you don't want to, if you look at a quarter, like that's a quarter.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.640
It's like you need something a little bit more long-term.
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:14.160
And yet you have to be receptible to like Rami calls this, like I think, market interrupt moments or something like that.
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.839
Like, and the most prominent example would be the launch of ChatGPT, right?
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:20.480
There would be like probably like an interrupt moment.
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:22.880
And then what is a market interrupt moment?
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.759
Of course, again, it's very contextual, I think, it how it affects you.
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:33.440
And I think the way I like to think about it then is like you your strategy consists of these different, almost like gears that are intertwined.
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:38.400
When you when you when you dial one gear, the other gears turn as well, and then you have to think about that.
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:45.359
And then I think the question is when the market interrupt moment happens, which part of your strategy is that predominantly affected, right?
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:47.680
Chances are your vision might not be affected.
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:49.440
Your vision is still very, very long term.
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.519
Chances are the segment you're going after is also not necessarily affected.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:55.680
Chances are you have a new competitor.
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.400
Chances are you're still solving the same problem.
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:02.799
But your value proposition might be in question because maybe there's a new expectation.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:05.519
Your differentiation might be very much in question.
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:12.640
Maybe your distribution as well, when a platform like OpenAI launches integrations or an app store, suddenly your value has to be distributed differently.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:18.720
So I think the the art, but if it's difficult to science it because it's more of an art, I think is to say, okay, this has come out.
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:26.559
Which part of the strategy is like does change now if I turn this dial, and how do the other dials have to turn consequently?
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:28.240
So that's the way I see it.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:32.400
So it's this, I think there's no standardizable or templatable answer to that.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:43.359
But it comes back to this point of translating a strategy into some kind of metrics and then having your routine or discipline to check in on the goals as well, to say, oh, like this metric is suddenly off track.
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:47.119
Is that because we're executing poorly or is that because a shift in the market?
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:56.400
And I think you can see this in many businesses right now when you say something like your organic SEO traffic might be changing due to AI search, for example.
00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:01.359
And then you have to think about okay, it's not the core content that is in threat, it's also not the segment.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:08.400
It's the same information I'm trying to provide, but how do I distribute it differently now to still reach people because their behavior has changed?
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:14.559
So I think it's about mapping these changes to the aspects of a strategy and thinking which need adjustment.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:28.960
Yes, and and what I'm hearing again, what can be useful here is not only having those metrics that are meaningful, but also having a practice to reflect on them so you could adjust when the market yeah disrupts itself or pivot.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:45.680
One other you know, interesting topic that you studied the book with was Alibi Progress, which is an interesting topic for me because it applies, I think, to every domain of life.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:52.079
I think that you know, something like just because you can measure it doesn't mean you should, or it's meaningful.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:57.200
So, yes, how did how did that come to be uh from your work, from your life?
00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:01.279
Uh yeah, it's I think it's it's it's become more present.
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:13.920
I think in the book I shared this anecdote of a boss of mine, a former boss of mine giving me feedback on that there during a part of my career, I might have been a bit more focused, or a bit too focused on the correct application of frameworks and methodology.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:20.160
That this I got a bit lost in the methodology and lost in itself, the actual results that are worth producing.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:38.000
And frankly, like over the years, then I I mean I've seen that or sometimes in myself, but I've also seen that in the clients I get to work with is that there's a they they check the box of a methodology and they do it in the book, but it doesn't produce a change in behavior for the teams or the customers, and therefore also not the bottom line.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.839
And then I think over the years, I used different, slightly different terminology for that.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:47.359
I think at one point I called it theater or something like that, but then I just landed on alibi progress.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:54.000
And funnily enough, I think the the title of the book, Real Progress, I think it is actually the title I had in mind when I started writing it.
00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:05.680
So I thought about real progress, and then it was more about finding the the appropriate opposite of that, and then I just landed on on alibi progress as the the term to use here.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:13.359
Yes, it's um reminds me uh reminds me of my practice with trying to write good advertising.
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:23.759
You know, there are so many metrics that you can measure, and yes, it can reach that many people, but does it actually uh uh create the kind of progress that you want at the end of the day?
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.400
Meaning, let's say you want to have more customers, right?
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:33.920
Just because you reach more people doesn't mean that that's uh in the only metric that matters or is needed.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:51.599
So in yeah, I found and do you have any maybe well in the book you have a lot of questions actually, but um maybe one or two questions uh for um either product managers or product teams or any any leader to diagnose that LB progress, right?
00:32:51.759 --> 00:33:03.680
Um how how can you perhaps um because some things are simple like in life or advertising, but when you build product, when you have big organizations, it might doesn't it's not always as obvious.
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:15.920
So maybe what are some signals, what are some questions to ask on a regular basis to make sure that the company, the team is actually making progress versus just setting up the metrics for the show or the theater, as you said in the book.
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:24.480
One of my favorite ways is probably when I work with a team or a company and they talk about a specific practice or way of working or framework, whatever it is.
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:28.880
Then one of the things that I'm interested in is why are you doing this?
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:35.279
And uh this one's so simple, but it's it's often like why tell me basically which problem are you trying to solve with this?
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:40.240
And you could apply this to anything with this meeting, with this methodology, with this way of talking.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:41.119
What is it?
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.680
And I think that is for me the first good test.
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:46.559
Like to say, can you tell me the reason why you're doing this?
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:53.119
If you can't tell me the reason why, there's a fair chance that you're doing it just so, right?
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:54.640
Just so that you tick the box.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:57.119
So I think that would be the first, the first thing for me.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:04.799
If you're at least can name the reason, like if you say, Oh, we're doing this, so the teams are more aligned, or the teams, I don't know, are more focused, whatever.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:08.800
Then the follow-up question would be, okay, so how long have you been doing this?
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:14.320
And how much has how could you, I mean, it doesn't always have to be a quantifiable number.
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:21.360
It could be an anecdote in this case, but how has the team's alignment changed over the past six months or 12 months, right?
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:25.360
So, and again, we could bring this back to this beach body example we had earlier on, right?
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:29.360
So you might say, Oh, I go to the I go to the gym three times a week for 12 weeks now.
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.920
It's like great, but has anything changed?
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:36.079
Like, do you lift heavier weights or have your has your body composition improved or whatever?
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:43.440
And if it hasn't, then yes, you did the reps, but you probably didn't push hard enough, you didn't do the right exercises or whatever.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:46.400
Like that then you can diagnose what the actual reason is.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:52.320
Yes, it's you know the question why there it's such a powerful question.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:35:04.480
You know, it's been used with like Toyota industries to I I think to improve the production process, and then it's used by, I don't know, Simon Sinick to figure out your life purpose, right?
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:11.440
Such a powerful question to get to the core of like why you're doing the things that you're doing and is it really working for you?
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:20.880
Um amazing question, and uh such a simple way to figure out if there is meaning or the results outcomes that uh you want.
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:44.239
In terms of maybe mistakes, like in in your experience, where do you find uh product teams, uh leaders get this progress wheel wrong, or not so much progress, but uh in interaction between strategy and metrics and discovery.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:49.599
What are the some common pitfalls that a lot of teams experience or leaders?
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:51.039
That's a good question.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:36:02.559
I think I would say I think that's I mean, that's kind of the main point of the progress wheel is like that to treat these three things and you could expand it to other practices, but to treat these three things as as isolated practices.
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:16.239
I think that's the first thing to say, oh we we we just do the strategy, or we just set goals, or we just talk to customers when a lack of clarity in any of these will result in a lack of clarity in in the respective domain, right?
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:22.960
Like the the less clear your strategy is, the more a team will struggle to articulate useful OKRs.
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:32.880
For example, or the less clarity about your target audience from your strategy exists, the harder it will be for the team to choose whose problems to prioritize, right?
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:34.239
So I think that that exists.
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:45.039
And a symptom of that is of trying to workshop these things, like to only solve things in a workshop, like to only say, oh, we're gonna do a strategy workshop or an OKR workshop or a discovery workshop.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:49.920
And I think that's a that's a bit of a red flag because I think you can workshop parts of it, right?
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:58.880
You can workshop certain things of that, but the actual work to understand customers, to understand which metric to use, like that happens outside of workshops.
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:08.960
So I think an over-reliance on workshops and the treating these things too independently, I think these would be the two main things I would I would pay attention to.
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:12.000
Um and maybe let me add a third one.
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:32.079
It's for example, at least in the context of I think it's applicable to all three, is that if they feel they are stuck in their strategy or their OKRs, that they try to do strategy harder, for example, to say, oh, we just need another strategy template, or we need more strategy offsites, or we we just need a new AI generator for OKRs or whatever.
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:40.480
And it's like when the root cause that might give you incremental gains, but the root cause is one of those adjacent practices that might just be even more powerful.
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.920
Yes, and also it reminds me of this.
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:52.960
What I encountered is when this strategy, for example, is too vague and it is treated differently by the leadership.
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:55.119
It's sort of like that's what the leadership does.
00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:03.039
And then it is not translated to every level and department or not translatable because it is so vague.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:25.039
And everyone ends up uh measuring their own metrics that do not necessarily support the strategy, and they then shape the discovery according to their metrics, not really related again to the strategy, and that's how you end up pulling into a different direction and not really making progress on strategy.
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:33.920
And the same thing, you know, like back to Beach Body example, running harder isn't always the answer to getting to where you you need to go.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:35.360
That's a good point.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.960
Yeah, it's like again, just reading your book and talking to you.
00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:44.719
The I can see like so much steps and so many things come together.
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:58.960
It's like why certain things just don't work in companies, especially if the company starts growing and becomes large and you can't really see everything as a leader, but you can see the symptoms like things are misaligned or not not working.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:03.119
I think a little bit maybe backward, maybe I don't know.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:12.960
The question what was the I think main motivation for you to put that even in the book at this point, right?
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:14.719
Why not just keep writing the blog?
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:20.000
Why did you want to uh create this book for maybe for who and what problem to solve to do?
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:21.599
That's a good question.
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:26.079
I think the probably a couple of different reasons.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:39.519
Uh like one is that it feels to me like when I when I talk to friends of mine who also in the coaching consulting business, that at some point like writing a book is like it's like it's like a better business card.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:41.519
It becomes can become your business card, right?
00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:47.280
There's a weird thing that happens with people when suddenly you can start yourself calling an author an author compared to not.
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:47.920
Right?
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:52.800
It's it's a while it's one of those things that are that are not rational but real, anyways, right?
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:59.119
So I think that was always in the back of my mind as like a strategic tool of my business, of like to to to to have a book, so to speak.
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:16.480
Thing that is what I realized is that very often or over time, as I started to see these connecting these dots across these domains and these intersected complexities, so to speak, is that when I would try to convey this complexity in an article, it would blow up inadequate sense.
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:20.159
Like it just becomes too big, it becomes too much, it's no longer an article.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:21.119
That's the second thing.
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:25.760
And the third thing was that I had this idea of a book.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.079
And so I was like, yeah, it's probably something I should do.
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:36.320
And I remember in 2022, I thought this would be the year where I would write the book, but I never actually went for it.
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:37.679
I never actually did it, right?
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:42.960
And I'm a strong believer, as I mentioned before, that to going after where the resonance or the gravity of something is.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.119
So clearly 2022 it wasn't there.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:50.320
But in 2023, like this term that came to my head is like, do I have the book in me?
00:40:50.559 --> 00:41:02.320
Like I think in order to push through the journey of a book, like it has to be within you so that you that it creates enough power in a way to actually bring it into the world.
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:04.480
Because it is it's a journey, you have to go through it.
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.840
Nobody sits down and writes it in two weeks, or almost no one.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:12.719
So that was that was the thing that in 2023 I felt like, yeah, I I have the book within me.
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:16.159
Like I have the things and the topics.
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:20.719
And the the funny, like mini breakthrough moment was I was a bit strategic about that.
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.480
I started working with a new editor on the blog to test how the collaboration worked.
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:32.000
And then in I think in May or June of that year, I was on a taxi and a cab ride with three very accomplished authors in my industry.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:36.079
Peter Willer, Jeff Gotthoff, and and I think Christina Watkin as well.
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:39.599
And the three of them just started talking about their book business.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:42.400
Like, ah, what's good about authorship and this or that.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:45.039
I was sitting in there and I I knew them, I liked them.
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:46.960
I was like, shit, now I have to write a book.
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:51.519
Like I was like, okay, missing out hearing them was like, yeah, okay, I see it.
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:58.000
And then I think two weeks later I talked to my editor, like, I want to, I want to read for real, and I want to embark on the journey of writing the book.
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:07.519
So I think that was the the spark of realizing when do I really have it within me to actually have enough power to push through this process of creating it.
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:14.880
And this, like, okay, I think it's part of my career, the stage of my consulting career where it really fits in.
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:35.119
Like slippermind the question, but I I I just thought about when you started talking about how when you write blogs and they blow up and become longer, almost uh not manageable for today's attention span.
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:40.159
When uh people usually buy a book, they expect it to be a book, right?
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:43.840
To dedicate some more attention and time to that.
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:52.559
And uh I think that's where you're right, that the format also is important, that not everything that you can put in the block, you should put in the blog or a tweet.
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.159
But yeah, the the amazing book, you know, it's one of those books.
00:42:56.239 --> 00:43:13.360
I also believe that when you decide to write a book and dedicate the time that you probably want to feel like it's something that is valuable of people's attention, that's worth people's attention, meaning that you know it's something good that you're gonna be proud of.
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:16.239
And so you can't really force uh that process.
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:21.679
I'm curious, how long did it take you to write it, like in terms of hours, maybe?
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:26.159
In terms of hours, I think I stopped tracking at one point because it was just, I don't know.
00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:28.079
I think it's I don't know.
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:34.320
So it was two years from actually starting working on it and the actual publishing, a little over two years maybe.
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:36.719
And it I did it in phases, I would say.
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:41.599
I think there were phases where I'd spent much more time where I'm probably spent a week.
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:48.239
I probably spent, let's say, 12, 14 hours a week writing on it, like net really like net, net writing time.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:51.920
There were weeks where I probably only work like four to six hours on it.
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:57.679
I think the the interesting thing is like if you hear if you hear that, I can imagine it might not sound like a lot, right?
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.320
It's because you feel like, oh, it's like 40 hours, 60-hour work weeks.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:07.039
But like, but the the the the period of actually like that's like net time thinking and writing the book.
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:11.440
And that's so different than sitting in a meeting or whatever, or doing normal corporate work.
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:13.599
So it's very for me, it's at least very intense.
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:20.559
And I realized I can't properly, I couldn't properly write more than let's say five hours a day.
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:23.280
I I just like the dimension insurance were just too much.
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:26.079
It just didn't make sense for me to continue after that.
00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:29.760
And then yeah, it was easy to difficult to find my flow.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:34.000
Also, like what's uh what's the type of way of working that works for me for the book?
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:39.519
But I had to try a lot in that and trying to find what's the setup where I can really write well for me.
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:54.960
Yeah, I also like you know to unpack the process because I like listeners to understand that uh fact that we humans are like machines, not AI, and our brain has its capacity to deliver good work and good thinking.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:59.519
And as you said, you can't just order yourself to sit and write for eight hours.
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:03.760
Go ahead.
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:11.039
It's also it's also what I noticed is that I I I would write something, and then it would have to sometimes just sit a bit.
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:12.719
I would have to marinate it in a way.
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.480
I'd have to put this down and I might come back to it a couple of weeks later.
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:18.239
I might not work on the book at all.
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:21.760
I might work on different parts of the book, but to me it was a natural process.
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:24.239
I couldn't like write it down, finish.
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:46.800
It was always like I would write it, I would let it sit, I would come back, I would write it again, then I would share it with people, and then I would so it was this the evolution for me because I also didn't want it to like an approach I took is I didn't like lagging leading again, is I didn't just want to write the full book and then get feedback on it, but I wanted to, I wrote individual chapters and shared each chapter with beta readers so I could get feedback immediately.
00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:55.519
So that's also what what kept me going throughout the two years, instead of having to have this dry period of not getting feedback at all, like having feedback in between.
00:45:56.559 --> 00:46:08.880
And you know, writing with people, I think it's by now a very common practice for a lot of creators to create to co-create with the audience, just because you also probably are writing for the audience, not just for your own entertainment.
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:10.800
So you want the book to resonate.
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:18.719
Curious that did you use AI at any in any form of shape, like maybe as an editor or idea generator?
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:25.199
So I did more towards the end, I would say, in the last quarter of writing, probably.
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:32.079
Because early on, I found that the tools that I used early on when I started writing in 2023, they never felt good enough, quite frankly.
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:32.400
Yeah.
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:36.079
Uh like the context windows were too small, it was difficult to convey the whole message.
00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:37.679
So that didn't really work well.
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:45.599
And so I would say I remember that this year, around like April, May, I started to use AI for a couple of like thinking pieces, right?
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:49.119
I would I think I would never uh almost never use it for actual writing.
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:54.480
It was more like, okay, look, I have I want to find a repeatable structure for the chapter.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:56.480
Or here's how I did this.
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:00.719
Tell me where the structure breaks, or where where I have a gap in there.
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:19.920
So that's how I where I so I really mostly use it as a sparings partner, and it was good because I still had my human editor, but working with AI in between was basically like she would sit, it felt like she would sit next to me for the little mini back and forth, and then I would have a larger chunk of work, and then I could work with my editor on actually fine-tuning it and embedding it into the broader picture.
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:21.360
Because that's what I still found.
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:28.960
What never really worked well with AI back then was to really make sure that the piece that was written, how well it fitted to the broader book.
00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:33.360
Like that's something where it always fell through, which is fine.
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:39.440
But yeah, that that was my I think the strongest usage that I experienced.
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:54.400
Yeah, see, but I I feel like that is a really good usage of it because what I found is when some people use it for actual writing, it very often loses that like grounding, so to speak, because the eye doesn't have a lived experience.
00:47:54.480 --> 00:48:01.440
And so very often, like what it tries, it becomes like such some generic stuff that is not very relatable.
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:24.800
And you can always, like, at least from the books that that I tried that I know were written by AI, like you you can say that's not a lot of human was in the book, so yeah, but your book is again like very relatable, and it's like AI just wouldn't be able to create anything like that because of the experience, originality, just the frameworks.
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:30.079
Um speaking of AI, you know, AI is like uh the biggest word these days.
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:44.639
In your work, did you find that any concepts, any tools you use or strategies change because of AI, or would you recommend something different because of the AI in the loop?
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:46.960
Like, what's your thinking on that?
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:48.559
That's a really great question again.
00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:52.880
I think I think for me, I feel like I have not like fully made up my mind on that.
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:56.000
I think it's I mean it's ever evolving, so it's hard to do it anyway.
00:48:56.239 --> 00:49:02.639
So I'd rather stick to uh stick to a few people that seem to be much more immersed in it, and I just like to follow their lead.
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:07.280
So, for example, uh the the guy I mentioned, Ravi Mehda, who contributed a lot to the book.
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:14.159
Like he had this great quote on AI helps you get to the hard part faster.
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:20.320
And I really like that to say like there's still very hard thinking required in life and building products.
00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:28.800
And I think it's great to think of which parts can AI can shortcut for you that you get faster towards so that you can have more time to spend with.
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.920
And I think that's a that's a very fascinating, almost like meta question.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:38.639
Like, because within product management, you might think if the delivery of features gets faster, what does that then mean?
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:46.880
Does it mean I should build more features, or shouldn't I spend the time that is now become available on harder questions?
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:50.000
And I think that's almost like it's a big meta question for humanity.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:56.639
It's like if you had suddenly more time to spare due to AI automation, do you try to do more of the thing?
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:59.840
Or do you like where do you else do you take your mind?
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:01.280
So this is very, very meta.
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:06.960
I realize that, but that's how I try to phrase it towards teams is if you have a shortcut to get to the hard parts faster.
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:18.639
Do you have the skills to like do you are you aware of these hard parts you should be thinking about and structures to talk about it and leverage AI intentionally for that, for these shortcuts where it's applicable?
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:25.760
Yeah, um reminds me of my recent experience where I'm trying to figure out value proposition for my services.
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:37.280
And what AI helps me to do is to deliver different presentations or videos that communicate either a frame or a career service.
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:50.480
But then uh I spend more time analyzing the feedback that I get from my potential client and then thinking through what is actually would I actually need to improve because this didn't get the response that I hoped for.
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:56.159
And then I get back to the thinking instead of spending hours on building the thing up that doesn't even work.
00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:57.679
Yeah, agreed.
00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:08.000
So yes, I can I can so relate to this, like I helps you to get to the hard parts faster as long as you're prepared to to then do the hard part more often.
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:13.920
I guess it's like you know, now you have to work with your brain actually harder more often.
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:14.880
Exactly.
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.079
Hopefully.
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:24.239
Yes, uh so AI can make you smarter if you use it the right way, like you said, as you use it as a partner in the creation.
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:32.960
Uh yes, thank you so much for sharing like uh this process and your thinking on because AI again is such a big topic right now.
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:35.440
Um but maybe a little bit more on AI.
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:44.559
Like, do you think in terms of I guess just the process of applying the framework?
00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:49.199
Do you think anything will fundamentally change around this framework because of the AI?
00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:55.360
Like, I don't know, this the trifector of strategist goals and discovery.
00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:57.039
Do we need more AI?
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:00.960
I don't know, in discovery, or I don't know.
00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:02.480
What's your thoughts on that?
00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:04.719
Do you think that's a long-standing framework?
00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:08.159
I think at least I would say that the fundamental question will remain, right?
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:12.400
Like the question of like the fundamental question of strategy, like who do you focus on?
00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:13.599
How do you differentiate?
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:16.079
What do you deliver through the OKRs?
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:17.199
How do you measure success?
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:21.280
And I think again, the question, like the necessity to answer the question will remain.
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:24.159
That's what my today, my current stance is.
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:28.239
I think the interesting question is how can you get to answers faster, right?
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:30.320
That's what we just talked about.
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:34.159
So you can do probably faster research on competitors and alternatives.
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:40.639
You can probably use AI as a very creative sparing partner for finding potential metrics to measure the strategy.
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:45.920
You can definitely use AI to prepare for user interviews and synthesize feedback even faster.
00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:53.679
So I think these, like the actual actions, the processes to execute or find answers to these questions, they will get speed up.
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:54.079
Yeah.
00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:54.719
For sure.
00:52:55.119 --> 00:53:01.360
I think the necessity to answer the questions will remain for the foreseeable future, as far as I can tell it right now.
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:07.840
And of course, then I mean the other meta question is what does AI mean, for example, as part of your strategy?
00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:09.840
Like, is it like where is it in your strategy?
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:20.159
I think there was this great quote by David Blunt, who wrote testing business ideas, and he I think he once wrote that AI itself is not a value proposition, right?
00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:32.480
AI is um is an accelerator or an amplifier of an existing value proposition or a creator of a new value proposition, but it's it's like it's like this this backbone force that reinforces a change in the front end.
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:36.400
But it's not it itself, is not it's not the value proposition.
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:40.559
Yes, it's and I think that resonated with me as a as a way of thinking.
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:50.320
It also reminds me of this fact that you know, I think Elon Musk uh talked about those, like his five-step process for the developing businesses faster.
00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:55.360
And one of the things he said that before automating or speeding things up, you need to eliminate things.
00:53:55.440 --> 00:54:02.559
But basically, what he was saying, you need to create strategy and make sure that your process is good before you try to automate it, speed up, or AI it.
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:06.239
Otherwise, you're just gonna get a lot more of the wrong stuff.
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:07.679
Yeah, agree.
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:14.880
Um I think I have just a few questions left before I'll let you go.
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:17.840
I know uh you probably have a lot of other things to do.
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:26.159
One question is a question that I didn't ask, but perhaps you wanted to answer something that you wanted to expand more on.
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:26.880
Oh, that's good.
00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:32.480
Yeah, I think one thing that came to my mind after we touched on the topic is how do I how can I go from lagging to leading indicators?
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:32.880
Yeah.
00:54:33.039 --> 00:54:44.480
Uh and like the the thing for product teams, what I tell for product teams is the way I think about it is okay, so you have your lagging indicator, which represents a certain success moment for customers.
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:48.320
Like they bought something or something, something success moment has changed.
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:56.480
And so the question, the way I articulate it is, okay, now tell me what do the people who were successful have in common.
00:54:57.199 --> 00:55:13.199
So, like a very simplified example might be so you maybe you're a furniture e-commerce company, and you see that people who have the highest conversion rate or the biggest basket, they have added, I don't know, 20 or more items to the bookmark list for the shopping wish list, for example.
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:21.920
So then you could say, okay, so there seems to be a correlation between the number of items someone has bookmarked on our platform and the success moment of purchasing.
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:26.880
So maybe the bookmarking a product for later could become a leading indicator, right?
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:36.079
So we optimize for the leading indicator, and then we observe in this cohort whether there's an actual correlation between the higher purchase, a chance to purchase, for example.
00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:40.960
And I think this fundamental way of thinking could be good again, using going back to the beach body example.
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:48.559
You could look at, okay, who are the people who I like, who want to look like, for example, and then could reverse engineer what do they have in common?
00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:57.920
Like, oh, okay, some of them do weight training instead of cardio, or some of them have, I don't know, a pescetarian diet over keto diet, whatever.
00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:01.519
And then even from there, you could say, okay, these are potential leading indicators to choose from.
00:56:01.599 --> 00:56:03.599
And then it's the question we had earlier.
00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:08.800
Then you just choose which works for your capabilities, for your preferences, and use that as the leading indicator.
00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:19.360
So basically finding the pattern among the successful ones, and then figuring out which pattern you you can actually replicate for your in your context.
00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:27.760
Yeah, so it's also I think a good way to educate or uh your strategy or uh to design your strategy, right?
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:37.360
Uh seeing those better practices and then designing your work process to measure it on those like uh leading indicators.
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:50.000
Yeah, it's uh such a good one because yes, uh I think also uh what our modern time is how it is different from before is we have so much choice of all the things that we can do.
00:56:50.239 --> 00:57:01.679
AI is obviously very conducive to that, meaning like you have so much, so many options, but that doesn't mean that all of those those options are worth doing, and one just waste your resources.
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:05.280
So that's a good way to filter through those faster.
00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:06.800
And like, what's my success?
00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:13.280
What's the common pattern, and how can I make that or to put that into test in my leading uh indicators?
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:16.960
Yeah, it's um again again, such a such a such a concept.
00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:25.920
Again, what you're talking about, I feel like it's it is applicable to so many areas of business and life if you extrapolate the concepts.
00:57:27.360 --> 00:57:31.119
Another question that I had, an interesting one, at least from my perspective.
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:41.039
One practice that you perhaps still see in teams and and leadership that you think should retire by now.
00:57:46.239 --> 00:58:10.400
That is a really good one, and it makes me think I might say I might say the let's say the conversation about, for example, like the metrics or results of a team predominantly being used for reporting.
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:12.239
So more that's more like a one-way street.
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:21.360
So it's more like me as the team, I have an update on certain things and I just communicate it to you instead of it being the conversation starter.
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:28.239
Uh like that's why I see that most often the context of OPRs, that it's then, oh, we don't have time to do a check-in, so just submit the OPRs.
00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:29.679
So it's just looking at the numbers.
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:38.400
And I think it's it just loses, it's not wrong per se, but it just loses a big portion of the value this can create from actually talking about these things.
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:57.599
And if I may, I would also add, based on your work, that this practice of using strategy as sort of isolated tool somewhere out there again at the leadership level, versus having it as a day-to-day decision-making assistant, like guidance, right?
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:03.519
Yeah, the this is a strategy, and this is how I use it to say yes or no to certain things.
00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:07.840
That should be a lot like used a lot wider.
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:13.440
And the last question, the future for the book, for your work.
00:59:13.519 --> 00:59:14.880
Uh, what do you think?
00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:17.199
You like what's your what are your hopes?
00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:22.960
Where do you see yourself developing uh in the next um I don't know, couple of years to a decade?
00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:24.079
Interesting.
00:59:24.159 --> 00:59:26.320
I'm still in the process of figuring that out, I would say.
00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:31.440
I think after completing the book, it marked, it felt like completing a big era of my work.
00:59:31.519 --> 00:59:38.639
And so it feels a bit like in the process of shaping this next era and definitely not by no means tired of talking about the things from the book.
00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:39.840
So this will keep going.
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:46.559
I think for me, the the biggest wish for the book is predominantly that the quote unquote the right people will pick it up.
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:52.400
What I mean by that is that what I often got as a feedback is like there's a that this is not a book for everyone, and that's fine.
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:53.519
It's not what I had in mind.
00:59:53.679 --> 01:00:07.119
So it's it serves a certain people of a certain experience, a certain situation better than others, and which is So my biggest hope is that it that it gets picked up by the right people and that these people get value from that.
01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:13.840
And I oftentimes have that when people reach out to me and talk to me, share a message on LinkedIn, how well they like the book, how much they like the book.
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:19.760
Then I look at their CV on LinkedIn and I see that they're actually quite mature, quite experienced in the craft.
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:23.920
And that makes me very happy because that's the type of people I wanted to write for.
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:38.480
The like the next thing I want to explore content-wise a bit more is this idea of what I mentioned before, like teams in companies who are building for internal teams, internal teams or platform teams, as you like to call it.
01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:49.199
I really like that because it's certainly a pattern or a red thread throughout most of my clients that these teams exist, that these teams do incredibly important work for the frontline success.
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:54.159
But that they have issues adopting some of these product practices we like to talk about so much.
01:00:54.400 --> 01:01:04.239
So that's what I what I would like to focus on a bit more and shining a bit more light on practices for these kind of teams and making them more visible, giving them more guidance, making them feel seen and heard.
01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:07.760
I think that's like a content topic I want to explore a bit more in the future.
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:15.920
Yeah, other than that, I realized this year like how much I enjoy live interactions with audiences, whether it's meetups, talks, or just webinars.
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:24.159
And so I look forward to putting more of that out there and just having more real-time conversations and interactions with people.
01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:29.920
I'm looking forward to seeing more of that and perhaps attending some talks and workshops.
01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:44.719
But speaking also of the area that you want to develop more, I feel like that is so important also because it shapes culture, like the products and services that are done internally, and you said like that help people to be seen and heard.
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:55.360
And ultimately, this internal environment defines then the external output and the you know efficiency of the whole enterprise, however small or big it is.
01:01:55.599 --> 01:02:00.880
So yes, I I can totally see why you why you see it as a very important area.
01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:07.280
Well, team, thank you so much for being a guest on this show and changewired podcast.
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:14.880
The last thing I want to ask is where would you like people to go to connect with your work, what to check out?
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:17.280
And I'm gonna link everything in the show notes.
01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:18.800
But what are the best places?
01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:24.800
I think the best place is probably LinkedIn to just from and search for my name, uh, get in touch there, have an open profile.
01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:26.719
Always looking forward to hear from people.
01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:33.760
And if they if people would just like to be in touch and get regular updates on what I'm up to, my newsletter is probably the best place to go.
01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:36.480
It's herbic.co slash newsletter.
01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:37.760
They can't miss it from there.
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:43.360
And uh yeah, looking forward to then always hearing from people on what lands with them and what's present for them.
01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:45.280
Yes, thank you for sharing this.
01:02:45.519 --> 01:03:02.960
And obviously, guys, don't forget to check out team's new book, Real Progress, How to Connect the Data of Product Strategy, OKRs and Discovery, which, as I mentioned, and can be applied to so many uh areas of life, business, I don't know, culture development and beyond.
01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:10.559
So thank you so much, team, and I'm looking forward to the what you accomplish, what you develop next.
01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:13.599
And thank you so much again for being on the show.