You're Wrong About Jaime Lannister!

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Welcome back everyone to castorly talk. We are here with
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another character interview. This one, I'm gonna warnier right now
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could get a little controversial because we are talking about
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one of the most complicated figures in all.
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Of Western Rosia history.
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We're talking about somebody who has a lot of fans,
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which we are I would say we count amongst those fans.
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He also has a lot of haters, many of which
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are some of our other favorites that hate this man
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for some very valid reasons. I am joined today by
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co host of the Imperial Cdit podcast, creator host of
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the Club, one of our best friends frequent collaborators.
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Contributed to Nicky Kumar is Bath. Hello, sir, how are you.
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Oh, I'm good, I'm excited, ready to talk about Jamie Stair.
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Of course I got, you know, my leanister red here.
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I made a real stake of not doing my dishes
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on time and I and I forgot I have a landhouse, linister,
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like it's like I'm gonna have that, and then you
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know it's kind of all fit and fit in the
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vibe and uh, you know, I screwed up, but to
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make up for it, I cut off my hands so you.
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Know, mm hmm around ballad the ballad and and being
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without your mug in in a way as being without
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a great tool, which I think is something that that
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Jamie has to get over, has to learn.
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Uh. Like Nicky said, and like you know, because you
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clicked on it.
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Today we're talking about I was gonna say the Kings Slayer,
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but I have a compulsion within me to always yell
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as loud as.
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I can get it.
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We're telling stories.
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We will we'll get into uh. I am really excited
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to talk about this character in general, but always with you.
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In our friendship.
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Talking about Jamie has been a consistent thing that's always
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come up. And like we talked about a lot of
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characters a lot, but this is one that I know
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as a character who's near and dear to use one
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of your faves, and where I want to start with
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him is something that's really more about you, which all
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of these are to a degree, which is why I
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want to make it really personal and not just the
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trivia of it. Because we can all go down his
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stats and believe me, he will too, and a lot
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of people. The story will of what he's done, but
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the why it connects with the person is always so
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interesting to men because I know you so well and
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we talk every day.
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One thing that has emerged with you that you love
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in a character is.
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I would say expertise and precision, and these are things
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that come up in There's a lot of ranged combatants
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that this comes up in. And while James he is not,
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you know, an archer, and so I can't do like
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a one to one with him and some other characters
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that you like in terms of their actual skill set.
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He is, you know, so effective at what he does
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and so deadly that he does.
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He is sort of like that ace in the same
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way that someone like cross Hair is who we've talked
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about in relation to him a lot, especially with what
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happens to cross Hair a little bit down the road,
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like spoilers for the bad Batch. You should all watch it.
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But in terms of you, where do you think that
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that stems from? Your student of history? You love character,
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you're a writer, but why this does it come from
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a sportsmantality? Does it come from having parents in the
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medical field?
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Like what do you think that is?
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Okay, so we're doing therapy session. I guess I guess
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you know it's interesting. I think there's a lot of
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facets that to your point about sort of precision expertise,
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and probably is a lot of like things I things
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I really love, like sports related like but even things
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like racing. Like it's why I love pod racing, It's
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why I like. I love the idea that you can
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It's why I love pilots in general. It's why I
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love the fighter pilots in any story, and especially in
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Star Wars. I love the idea that, you know, just
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being good at something is enough to kind of get
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you through. It's it's it's it's sort of this uh,
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you know, this thing of like I I love the
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the rebellion pillet resistance pilots who you know, just simply
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off the skill of you know, like a like a
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wedge antilities being like, you know what, one day I'd
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hit it again in a cockpit and I just lent
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for it and I and I was there from Adalan
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to Hexagal, you know, and like like I love that
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kind of thing. I love it. In the context of
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studying World War Two, I love the the aviators of
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World War two and and things they went through and
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again just as regular people who were like I guess
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this is what I'm doing. I'm getting in a B
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seventeen and I'm flying a big ass plane over you know,
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over Europe and all this, and so I love all
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that and I think that definitely is a big part
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of why like Jamie. But I think in the end
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it's probably something a lot more personal. And it's like
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I think, I think I love these characters who their
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exterior shows the world and gives the world an entirely
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different view of what they actually are. And and that's
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often like self inflicted, especially with Jamie's case, not never,
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he never helps himself in that in that type of scenario.
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But I but I always love these characters who who
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have this this sort of and again the range is
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very wide, like they're not all one to ones, but
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like outside of cross Hair Sniping likes that he's inaccessible
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as a person until until you start seeing and and
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then you get those lines of like of course the Hunter,
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Oh you're as bad as Hunter, Like no, I'm much
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worse when it comes to like caring for this child
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and like like it's stuff like that, and it's a
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it's a character like I even say Chopper, like like
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Chopper is insane as a droid, but he shows those
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moments that he cares like it's it's uh, it just goes,
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it goes somewhere differently.
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And and.
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I mean and other ones like I think of you know,
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I think of Snape. I think of Tim Riggins from
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from Friday Night Lights. Like these people who exterior and
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demeanor creates this version for people to perceive that is
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hiding something really either narratively like interesting or even just
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down to like just nice. Like I think something like
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really rich about those characters. And and I think Jamie
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is the one, like the big one in Game of
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Throne or sung Aboy some fire for me, who who
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does that kind of the I think I think his
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like twing the hardest on on all of that. What
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does that say about me?
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Right?
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Yeah? Right, you're like, and uh so in my central
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wound is Yeah, I think I do have that though
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I think duality.
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Yeah, I think I think I have that to a
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degree where I think, like, I think I do wonder
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how I'm perceived by people and if it's accurate to
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who I like, know I am. I think I think
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I do want that. So I think I do really
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find myself connecting the characters who who exhibit that in
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very extreme verss in a lot of fiction.
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Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
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I mean the we're a hyper aware generation, and we're
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a hyper aware type of guy. I think, just like
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the types of conversations you and I have and that
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our friends have, we're always very in like our perspective
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and how it clashes with maybe what's in vogue or
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how or how it doesn't and uh, you know, communal
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conversations or something that we get into a lot and
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we're both like very aware of like our place in
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groups good and bad. And I think that's something that
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Jamie definitely has, like right out of the get is
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that he is a character of contrast where you are
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in deared already so quickly to the starks that he
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comes around sort of challenging what you know. But there's
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something not right already, as if you ran as a
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reader about his classes with Ned, where you're like, why
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does it feel like Ned doesn't have the full like.
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Standing here, Like it does feel like there's something I'm
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not privy to.
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Like they do a great job of indicating a lived
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in history through this guy that people's ideas of him
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are so.
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It's widespread.
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First of all, it's like a realm wide opinion of him,
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but like everybody's coming out from these different angles, and
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it's interesting. And another character that came to mind when
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you were talking about that archetype is Wolverine in that
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he is literally known as in the way that Batman
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has like the Cape Crusader, the Dark Knight.
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Wolverine is the best there is at what he does,
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and what he does isn't very nice.
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That's the thing.
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I'm the best there is what I do, Bub.
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And he is the best there is a what he does, Bob.
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But he is also always the dad, the reluctant dad.
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He is always the girl dad.
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He's always Professor Logan, and he's always like these things
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of like, oh you really want love and love comes
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you are that you are that lone wolf. That isn't
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actually and and not that that's Jamie, but just like
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in the sense that you could be. You could simplify
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these guys down to bloodshed in a lot of ways,
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or their deeds and Jamie's ideas of what knighthood is
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and what knighthood has proven to be like in his career,
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such a fascinating things that we'll talk about.
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A little bit.
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So your first exposure to him is I'm assuming the
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pilot of of got.
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Uh correct, mister Nikolai Custer Weldo and and his uh
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his portrayal of of Jamie is the beginning for me.
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And yeah, I think, you know, speaking of speaking of expertise,
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like you know, and then liking sort of like characters
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like I know you know this, but like I'm also
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obsessed with the King's Guard, so like just the idea
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of these like this little squadron of like the best
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of the best or so we're mentable, right, So so anyway,
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like him being a part of that was already a
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very like kind of cool thing to me. The armor
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is great, you know, very specific and and and yeah,
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I think like he's just he's just a very you know,
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through writing through performance, Like he's a very like engaging person,
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even even when you're like hating it, right, like because
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you know he's going up as you said, like he's
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going up against character we're already coed to to be
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write or die for. But then but then there's even
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moments in like you know, I'll think of the where
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Jory Jory Castle goes to like deliver something and Jamie's outside,
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and I just I always just I always think about
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the one, the part where he's like, oh yeah, he's
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a good lad and Jamie's just like like immediately immediately,
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just like I doubt it, and and just so it's
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like that is very engaging despite being you know, villain
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coded as as we're meant to meant to see him.
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But but I would say, my, my like real of
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Jamie came from from the books. And and you know
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that obviously the extent of his character we got in
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the show, as far as it lines up with the books,
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kind of went really like it was executed very well.
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But but for the book itself or the books themselves really,
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or what sort of catapulted my interest of character, and
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as I'm sure like for pretty much anyone who's read it,
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because you know, I don't know the I don't know
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the brown on the channel of like people who are
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listening who have or only show watchers or book and
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show readers or whatever. But for anyone who doesn't know
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the series of the novels are given through point of
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view chapters, and for first two books, ah, it's it's
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the world perceiving Jamie, and then it's it's only until
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the third book when he actually becomes one of the
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ps Every every book is or every chapter is titled
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as like the character it's showing and the I remember
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the first time you turn page Jamie. I was like, oh, okay,
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let's go, let's let's see what's going on. Yeah, so yeah,
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I think, you know, definitely the show was this, you know,
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this the opening of the door. But I really do credit,
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you know, mister Martin Felf for for being for you know,
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just telling the tale of the character so far as
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brilliantly as as he's done.
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Can I make an observation about him just in terms
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of like first impressions that I don't know quite how
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to articulate. It might sound like silly, but you'll know
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what I mean something about Jamie because my my first
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exposure to him was also the pilot. And for people
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that have been casually talked viewers that know Ken has
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read all the books, and Nicky's read all the books,
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and he's read all the books. I just finished the
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second book, so we'll we'll dive in and out of
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books and I don't you know, NICKI will be free
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to jump into that, but just for anyone that knows
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from this point on, if there's a book spoiler, you've
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been worn. But the the the thing that got me
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about him right at the pilot is that I'm a
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big character names person. I know you are, a lot
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of our nerdy friends are, especially in fantasy and sci fi.
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Something about Jamie as a name no offense to any Jamies.
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It doesn't, it doesn't.
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It doesn't strike majesty, it doesn't strike tear. It doesn't,
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it doesn't sound badass tyrium a name alone, circe having
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mythological you know, allusion to it, like that, these are
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names even even you know Edard. You know, yes he's
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ned to his friends, but like Eduard, like these are
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names that it's like whoa even theods. But then he
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gives the deadliest and most like notorious, a name that
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sounds fitting of a little boy. And then we learn
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in his story how much like that early boyhood like
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experience is fundamental to him, like be made to feel
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stupid and and like in a lot of ways like Jamie,
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like it's a it's a it's a it's a childish
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sounding name to me. And again I don't want me
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to offend any Jamie. If you're a Jamie out there
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and you're fully man, I believe you. But like, it's
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just it evokes the child that, like Taiwand was never
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fully proud of every time I hear it in a
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way that most of the other names don't.
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Like.
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It's not that your name has to be elaborate. John's
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not a fantasy name, but it just it doesn't feel
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like that.
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Do you have that at all?
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Yeah, I guess I never super thought of it. The
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only thing that I think of is one of my
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friends would like refuse to call him anything else behind
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me that kind of Yeah, that kind of grags me up.
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He'd be like him LANs. But uh, yeah, Like I
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think George obviously, George is very intentional about his naming.
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So I think there is something about it being's name
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that we perceive, we know in our world as whether
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whether it's childish or not. It is both.
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Masculine and both masculine and feminine and very regular. Like
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you had you had probably three three four Jamis in
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your elementary school, you know I did.
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Right, And so like there's there's he's he's a really
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interesting character. Namer in that way, because yeah, you have
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people who really swing from like high fantasy into like
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your neighbor's kids, right, Like it's it's really crazy. I
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mean yeah, because you have like you you know, Barriston,
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and then you have your and then you have Sam
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sam Well, Sam Well. It's a little kind of you know,
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or Ed right or or Carl Tanner from Allan you know,
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get it right. Yeah, and U and I always I
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always marvel in Star Wars too, because Star Wars does
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this amazingly well. Obviously your your character is Luke right,
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and and then and Luke and Ben, you know, it's
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like and then uh, then you have you know, Brendon
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muff Will of talking. So yeah, you know, just ways
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to like swing it back and forth from like this
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this sort of high high thing to to the mundane.
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And I think it like informs the character in a
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really interesting way because I think something everybody likes to
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talk about, for both good reasons and overblown reasons, is
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how much of George R. Martin's work with A Song
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of Ice and Fire is about the subversion of of
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tropes and the subversion of of the fantasy you're familiar with,
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and so I think there is something cool of like
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the name not matching the best sword in the realm, right,
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like at least you know, there's something cool about that.
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And one one thing I love about the character. I
319
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.279
remember had to write a like I in college, I
320
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took a game of cat and it was under the
321
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English department, so so it was very like literary based.
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And one of the professor made us like pick a
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passage from you know, one of the one of the
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I think, I think we had only read the first
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book at that point. We had to pick a pageant
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and like just close read a passage basically as this essay,
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and and like focus on words and stuff. And I
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think I gold because I knew I wanted to write
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about Jamie and it was like I always the scene
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was stuck with me because of it. And it's it's
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when they first show up to winter Fell, and you
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know you were talking earlier about how how many characters
333
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perceive him for being you know, the King Slayer or
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whatnot and or that that that guy. But the first
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person you see it from his brand, who is a
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child and maybe intellectually knows some things I don't know.
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The I can't remember the extent to which Brandon educated.
338
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But he's he sees Jamie and he sees Robert at
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the same time, and he's like, he's like, this fat
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loser is the king. He's like, like, that guy should
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be the king. That guy looks cool. That guy is
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what I when I imagine night, you know, like the
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Enzo Ferrari quote of you ask a you ask a
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child to draw a race. He's gonna read and like
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that that being like the thesis of a Ferrari is like,
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it's that for Jamie. He's like, you could go around,
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I'm the greatest person in the realm. It's going to
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be that beautiful blonde guy you know, on horseback and
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in shining armor, and and that already is now you know,
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a subversion of you know, brandspectations along with ours, right
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like this, this this guy who he thinks looks like
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the most noble guy in the realm, is going to
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put him out a window, you know, rather shortly. And
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so so yeah, I think there's just so a lot
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of like very going on with your point about the name,
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with your with the way he's being perceived by children,
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and then they eventually like get to.
358
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Know, Yeah, no, I love that the point that you
359
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made about George's subversions being overblown, but when they are there,
360
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you know, when you when you get them, because it's
361
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it's overblown like motivational, right, Like fans think that it's
362
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a it's about dunking, and it's like, no, it's about unpacking.
363
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It's about it's about, you know, giving different angles on it,
364
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and Jamie does.
365
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He's like one of the best examples of that.
366
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I mean, we're we're jumping around a little bit, and
367
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I do want to still get some of your more
368
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first impressions on him. But the you can make an argument,
369
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you know, especially as he's with Brion, that like some
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of the most knightly things that are happening at that
371
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point in the story are happening there, but they're happening
372
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with no witnesses, right, They're happening with no glory.
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They're happening with only this one person that can see.
374
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So that all that is just so baked into the
375
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character that even in this pilot you know, or or
376
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in the case of the novels, those first couple of chapters,
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you are immediately you know, nudged as a reader, as
378
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a viewer toward understanding that he is a villain ish
379
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.039
at least for right now. There is you know, the
380
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the light matter of incest, which we've gone twenty three
381
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minutes up to this point. I think I only alluded
382
00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:03.480
to it once, and now we're gonna go out right
383
00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:06.160
talk about it. Uh that and then we have the
384
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uh the attempted burder of a child. But the other
385
00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:13.920
thing about that that early stuff, especially in the show,
386
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because you have these two incredible actors and Peter and Nikola,
387
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is that you do really early understand that he loves
388
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his brother. That is always a thing that like they
389
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.079
use as like his earliest the earliest lifeline of the
390
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:30.960
character is that then you get more as you go,
391
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.440
but from the get you understand that, like there is
392
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something between these two.
393
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Even when they're separated.
394
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In the early stuff, as the war is breaking out,
395
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they're they're thinking about each other.
396
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They want to be able to call each other. He
397
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wishes he could call on him for this, and.
398
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:51.039
Jamie is willing to start start a war over Tyrian safety,
399
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.160
and and all of that I think is really rich
400
00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:58.640
right up front. So with it being in your first
401
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:01.160
exposure to everybody, had a you feel about him as
402
00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:05.559
a member of the Lanisters as well, did did the
403
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:09.799
idea of them being the villainous family, and as much
404
00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:12.440
as we could simplify it to that also intrigue you
405
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.240
because you're not somebody for people that don't know you.
406
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.559
You're not like a typically a villain's first guy. As
407
00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:21.799
much as I know you're not like an Empire guy.
408
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:23.559
You're very much a rebel wiance guy.
409
00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:28.599
Right right, Yeah, I think that that's like easy thing
410
00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:32.599
to like say, right up is like team Stark baby, right,
411
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:36.000
like like let's not let's not get it twisted, you know, like, yeah,
412
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:39.279
I don't, I don't care what era. I'm waiting for
413
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:41.519
the winter Wolves in a few weeks, like like I'm
414
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:46.079
a team's starting, and so it's I think there's I
415
00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:49.960
think a lot of what comes down to the Lanisters
416
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:55.640
as we know them in the show is estally, I mean,
417
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:00.480
first and foremost, it is the cast. I think you'll
418
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:05.079
never like for whatever I could play on anybody at
419
00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:07.960
any given moment in terms of like being like, oh yeah,
420
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:10.359
these guys aren't so bad. It's down to it. It's
421
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:13.359
down to the cast. And then I think, based off
422
00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:16.799
what we know about Benioff, and Wiss and how they
423
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:23.240
sort of perceived the story as being more like political
424
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:27.599
drama let's say, then, than like they brank that over
425
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:31.720
the fantasy elements. I think is probably assumption at this
426
00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:36.000
point in how they look look at the series. I
427
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:40.880
think just the people who aren't afraid of rule breaking,
428
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.119
I think are are the ones who would be the
429
00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:49.000
most interesting to write in a in a political politician drama.
430
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:52.759
So I think it's kind of like it's almost like
431
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:58.480
it's never really about their side, and it's I find it.
432
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.680
I find myself in a similar place with the Greens,
433
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:05.680
like it's it's never about the cause they're fighting, but
434
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:08.720
they're just good, Like they're like the actors are great
435
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:13.160
and they're being written well. And I think I think
436
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:17.039
that is really what it comes down to in the end.
437
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:20.240
I don't I don't think there's a whole lot in
438
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:23.799
especially while we're talking like first impressions. I don't know
439
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:29.359
in season one to be like, oh yeah, the Lenisters are,
440
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:32.480
you know, they they got their points, Like I don't
441
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:36.799
think because even because even Tyrian, even Tyrian is a
442
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:40.119
hire within the first season, right, like so you can
443
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:44.680
you can spread him out because because he's very obviously
444
00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:47.599
like you know, he's a scene steeler, he's a ship
445
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:51.519
he's a serious stealer. Like he's he's everything. And you know,
446
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:57.720
probably I don't I couldn't like ascribe a percentage to it,
447
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:02.160
but probably the vast like like a large percentage of
448
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:07.920
the success of the show is funded Peter Dinklice as Lanister, right,
449
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:12.880
Like people know I drink and I know things like
450
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:15.440
you know, like like that's that that was on shirts
451
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:21.599
and target, right, like and so so it's like, you know,
452
00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:24.920
I don't think it was ever a case of like
453
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:31.920
being drawn to them by by ideology or whatever, but
454
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:35.759
like just they're just so they're just so delightful and
455
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:40.400
like like you know that that scene with Jamie and
456
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:44.279
John when when he's like, so I heard you're going
457
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.839
to the Nights one, it's just he's just he's just
458
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:50.640
poking everybody, right, He's like, oh, there there's an eye.
459
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:54.319
I will poke it just because I can't, you know,
460
00:27:55.160 --> 00:28:00.240
and and and again it's and it's just fascinating because
461
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.519
it's like sort of what I said about this exterior
462
00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:09.559
projecting an exterior to hide the interior. It's like it's
463
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.079
like Jamie. I feel like if Jamie and John just
464
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.079
that and like had a good talk like as themselves,
465
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:17.880
like they really get along, you know, like like if
466
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:21.920
season eight Jamie has something to say to John, he
467
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:26.160
does eventually. I think there's probably like some some like
468
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:31.119
amount of like mutual respect. But it's very fun. It's
469
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:35.920
very Jamie that's built this fortress around this sort of
470
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.440
persona of what he needs to be right and and
471
00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:41.839
just that's just not a nice person in the end,
472
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:46.839
and and yeah, like it's it's it's very fascinating, like
473
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:50.839
and sort of like you said again in terms of
474
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:54.200
like his his barbs with Ned, and it's like, yeah,
475
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:56.279
we're trained to be on Ned's side, but like there's something,
476
00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:00.960
there's something that he's saying here that is it's not
477
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.200
letting me like fully commit against him. I think that's
478
00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:08.759
that's that's really like the part of again not being
479
00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:13.279
on their side, but like just there's something about it.
480
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:14.559
There's something, I mean, I.
481
00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:16.640
Think, and you could tell and you could tell it
482
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:20.160
throws Ned. It throws Ned, and that that throws you,
483
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:22.559
and and Sean Bean in the show plays it, it
484
00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:25.440
plays it so beautifully, which is I was like we
485
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:27.920
should we should mention this too. The first one of
486
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:29.680
these we did was the best Stanis. The second one
487
00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:33.519
we did was about Brien. In both of those, you know,
488
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:38.440
they are obviously like everybody is younger on the page,
489
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:42.759
you know, for all types of practical and real world reasons.
490
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:45.119
The shows, you know, which I think is a decision
491
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.279
everybody supports and showed support based on things that happened.
492
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:50.680
Everybody is aged up quite a bit.
493
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:56.319
But you know, you you having Jamie as as as
494
00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:59.319
your character and the topic today and everybody. By the way,
495
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:01.920
I've said this the first two, everybody's gonna come back
496
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:03.720
on the show and talk about other characters too. I'm
497
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:06.160
just rotating through the one I associate with people the
498
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:08.319
most everything. I'm not saying Nikki can only ever talk
499
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.279
about Jamie. But given that Jamie is the first one
500
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.160
where that really feels like a relevant point, I'm curious
501
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:16.480
about your thoughts on that because it doesn't affect someone
502
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:19.599
like Stantus as much. But Jamie's age up from the
503
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:24.160
page to Nickelai's interpretation of the character is pretty significant
504
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:27.480
in terms of how he plays. It's as significant as
505
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:31.640
you know the Starks where they are boys and That's
506
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:36.599
something that's been really hitting me reading Robin John versus
507
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:41.880
having watched them, because I've watched the show through multiple
508
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:43.599
times already, and so it's like, I feel like I
509
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:46.000
really know Robin John. And then there are scenes with
510
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:47.759
them in the in the text and with Jamie where
511
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:49.759
I'm like, oh, this is a young man's thought. It
512
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:52.319
happened with Ned and Kat too, like Ned and Catt
513
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:55.880
and the Books one, Books one two shout out Ned
514
00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.920
Ned and Book one is having internal monologue of like
515
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.759
maybe I'll go back and you know, have another kid
516
00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:04.799
with Kat, like you know, we could have another one,
517
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:06.279
like you know, like then.
518
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.599
That stuff's not in the show because everybody's aged up.
519
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:11.680
So with Jamie there is like almost like you're not
520
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:15.640
losing an element of like him being a young prodigy
521
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.799
because they still talk about it, but it was further
522
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.119
back in the show. So how does that How does
523
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.319
that all play for differences and what Nikolay does with
524
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:26.000
his take?
525
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:30.200
Yeah, I think I think Nikolay also has.
526
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:35.599
A I think it didn't.
527
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:37.559
I actually don't know if I thought about it too
528
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:40.759
much because I feel like he, at least in the
529
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.599
show still kind of like looks young enough it certainly
530
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:46.720
in season one, like he's just charming.
531
00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:48.720
Yeah, yeah, he's charming.
532
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:53.119
Right, he still kind of looks young enough to be like, yeah,
533
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:56.680
he's in his thirties or whatever, like, which I think
534
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.880
is what it would see seventeen is that what seventeen
535
00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:03.519
plus seventeen or something or no less.
536
00:32:03.319 --> 00:32:06.559
Than that, I don't know, seventeen plus like eleven or something.
537
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:07.119
I can't remember.
538
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:10.240
Yeah, it's I guess it's however, old John is so
539
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:16.319
oh yeah, fourteen or fifteen, Yeah, so yeah, I could
540
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:21.599
buy him as someone in his thirties probably at that point. Yeah.
541
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:28.200
So yeah, It's like I don't know if if I
542
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:32.039
really I don't know if it really caught me too
543
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:35.039
much when I was watching it in terms of the
544
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:42.119
age scaling, did it did catch you? Like about the
545
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:43.240
way he's it's.
546
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:49.920
It is almost like his isn't as jarring as the
547
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:53.440
Stark Boys. But there are moments.
548
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:58.440
In the uh, especially in the conversation with Kat, which
549
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.359
is you know, staged a little bit differently, And there
550
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:01.680
are things in the books that are like that, just
551
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:04.400
you know, because you know that like sometimes he's writing
552
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.240
a location where it's just like either we don't have
553
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:09.720
the money for that, or you know, HBO wasn't there
554
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:12.359
at that point for likes, you know, not like where
555
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:14.759
they're at, like now with House where it's like bigger
556
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:17.680
than it's ever been, or nine seven Kingdoms where it's
557
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:18.519
more colorful, but it's.
558
00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:20.640
Ever been, and like the armor more book accurate and
559
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:21.240
blah blah blah.
560
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:24.400
So it's like sometimes replacing the scene in a little
561
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:26.480
bit of a different circumstance and the cat one like
562
00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:29.519
instead of him being like in that like cage that
563
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.240
he's in, like when she dresses him down and sit
564
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:35.640
talks him, he's like in the cell at river Run
565
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:37.880
like at the bottom and she goes down there, and
566
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:41.400
like it's a longer scene and it's a little bit
567
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:44.960
more of a snarkier version of the scene. And the
568
00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:49.960
sexual like trying to intimidate her sexually is a little
569
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.079
bit to me. I fel like it was laid on thicker,
570
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:54.480
like a younger guy would do. Like there are little
571
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:57.039
moments like that where it's like, I think his shittiness
572
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:01.119
and honestly, everybody's every thing is a little bit more
573
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:04.440
amped up with page time, Like that's just the thing.
574
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:09.360
But maybe it's because I'm as a as a longtime
575
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:14.639
show watcher new reader. I'm so conscious of the changes
576
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:18.320
that I am creating a younger guy in my head
577
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:21.400
because i know that's happening with Aria, where I've had
578
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.280
to put effort into not imagining Mazie because I have
579
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:29.280
to remember a a younger girl and then be they
580
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:34.119
physically describe her to be different than Mazy like our books.
581
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:36.360
I think they say has like, well, they're being mean,
582
00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:38.000
but they say like she has like horse face, she
583
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.199
has like a long head and everything, and it's like,
584
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:42.000
that's not Mazy Williams.
585
00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:44.159
We know, very round in the head. So it's like
586
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:48.639
that made me be like, oh yeah, yeah.
587
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:52.599
Something else of the show didn't do as much. It
588
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:55.920
really only did it with Sanza. Is how like Rob
589
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:01.480
and Sonza are very and thetally kidd uh yeah, and
590
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:06.000
like they they they reflect the Tully side much heavier,
591
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:10.519
and I think, yeah, I don't remember when they say it,
592
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:15.599
but they're literally like Aria is very starky and very lean,
593
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:20.840
right like yeah, And I think, again, not to delvi
594
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:22.800
into a anything, but you know that sets her apart
595
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:24.519
from from the other kid.
596
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:28.119
You know what this is, This is just like just
597
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.440
not about anybody, not anything important, but the thing that
598
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:33.440
really throws me every time every time that I read
599
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:37.800
Taiwan or Taiwan is mentioned, I picture Charles Dance because
600
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.159
of course, and then I have to remind myself that
601
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.840
book Taiwan is bald, and so that I have.
602
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.559
To imagine a bald Charles Dance, And I'm like.
603
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:49.559
Yeah, interesting, I haven't read it in a while. But
604
00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:53.400
is he also like much like Brownier.
605
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:56.960
I feel like he's like, yeah, more like physically imposing. Yeah,
606
00:35:57.559 --> 00:35:59.239
I don't know if he's like a brick shit out
607
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:08.239
an He's like he's tall, dude, you embarrass me? Uh yeah,
608
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:10.320
So like it hasn't come up too much. I'm curious
609
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:13.440
once I get into book three and we get more
610
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:15.840
into him being out about his POV how it's gonna play.
611
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:16.800
I'm excited for that, but.
612
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.239
Moving past sort of like your your initial stuff, you're there,
613
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:26.039
you get Nikolay, he's making these great choices.
614
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:29.599
I love that you brought up the moment with the jury. Uh.
615
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:32.280
Similarly in the John scene that you brought up it's
616
00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:36.000
the uh, well, it's only for life, like it's just
617
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:39.760
like the little the little barbs, like you said, because
618
00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.119
he can, because he has, he's exerting some control because
619
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:43.400
he's such an insecure being.
620
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:47.760
I want to jump ahead. I'm gonna throw out the scene.
621
00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:49.679
You don't have to talk just about that scene, but
622
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.440
just sort of like I think the bathtub scene is
623
00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:57.199
kind of the Banner Hall of Fame thing for like
624
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:02.320
revealing the truth of I'm not gonna say the best
625
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:05.760
in the series, but definitely a top moment for this
626
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:08.880
character and for any of them. Of you thought you knew, well,
627
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.199
now I'm gonna tell you, what are your thoughts on
628
00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:17.119
everything that you learned later and whether it's that seem
629
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:19.440
specifically or just in general, and how it informed your
630
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:22.480
approach to the character because you are such an appreciator
631
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:26.159
of that history and this series we touched on a
632
00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:28.960
little bit with Ned gives you so many people who
633
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:31.760
believe one thing, and it's not like what they believe
634
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:36.239
is wrong, but their their context for it is so missing.
635
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:39.079
How does that play for you as as somebody who
636
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:41.239
likes the character and as somebody who's just interested in
637
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:46.519
the history of these nights and what their honor means
638
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:48.639
because Jay, because Ned is there saying I have honor
639
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.039
and Jamie is like okay, but he doesn't say it
640
00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:55.800
in these words, but his it's his presence I think
641
00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:58.400
makes Ned uncomfortable because it forces Ned to ask like
642
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.800
what would I have done right? And nobody wants to
643
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:03.159
have to have that conversation with him.
644
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:08.320
Yeah again, like uh, it was just we sort of
645
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:10.880
like mentioned that scene a lot, but like just that
646
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:14.159
that one question of what would I be more honorable
647
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:16.400
if I stayed him in the stomach instead of the back,
648
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:18.960
like you know, just just being able to sort of
649
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:23.719
like serve that up. And anyway, Yeah, to go to
650
00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:28.559
go to the bathtub, the famous uh Jamie scene. I
651
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.800
think actually I do have to wind back a little
652
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.480
bit to the chapter you mentioned, which, in a lot
653
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:38.440
of ways actually is the one that stays with me
654
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:42.480
more of uh when Catlin goes to talk to him
655
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:45.639
at the end of Class Kings before before letting him
656
00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:50.239
or releasing him. I think that was the that was
657
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:55.599
the one where it was like, oh, okay. I think
658
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:59.199
George probably knew he was bringing Jamie Hn as a
659
00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:02.679
POV character and was like, I'm gonna set the table here.
660
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:06.360
And I think actually, for as much as the bathtub
661
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:13.960
is is the clear breakthrough that that scene initially in
662
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:19.480
the cell Is. I think like that was the one
663
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:26.079
that really sort of started started my like looking at
664
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:31.000
him because it sort of brings up these the same
665
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:38.519
ideas and you know, just getting into the contradictions of
666
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:42.039
his life, right Like I think I think it's at
667
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:44.599
that that point with Catlin where he does the whole
668
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:48.719
like there's so many rules. Man, you gotta you gotta
669
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:51.280
obey the gods, you gotta obey the king, you gotta
670
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.679
obey your father, you gotta be true to your family.
671
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:56.760
And it's like what happens when they're all mushed together
672
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:01.079
and and they're all, you know, being being honest to one,
673
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:05.239
being honest to the other, and and again it's all filtered.
674
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:10.000
It's it's just it's kind of the most perfect exchange
675
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:13.199
Jamee dialogue, at least for the character at that point,
676
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:17.159
because it's like it's it's truth with just like a
677
00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:19.920
slap and like he's he's also you can just like
678
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:23.840
imagine him on the ground, like this physical representation of
679
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:27.239
him just being like I'm gonna tell you the truth,
680
00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:30.639
but I'm also taking swipes at you, like like you know,
681
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:34.159
he he he is sort of like twisting the knife
682
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:37.880
on mad he is he admits he flung Brand out
683
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:40.960
the window, like he's he is trying to hurt her,
684
00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:45.599
but he's also just revealing this this core truth of
685
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:50.239
his character, which is he he's probably saved more people
686
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:53.760
than anyone else in the series, right like he is
687
00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:57.280
he has directly I don't know, I don't know what
688
00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:01.159
the population is, but we'll say like a million, like
689
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:03.800
just yeah, he's saved so many people.
690
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.239
And and he is friends, friends and enemies like he
691
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:12.079
saved he saved this, you know, all the forces of
692
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.320
Robert as well, like including her all.
693
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:17.599
So it's like yeah, very a lot.
694
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:21.320
And like again the great, the great contradiction, and like
695
00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:24.199
I don't think I don't think we get the full
696
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.360
again that this is saved for this bathtub scene you
697
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.599
brought up, so like we don't get the full extent
698
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:34.079
of the truth, the truth of it, right, Like we
699
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.000
don't know Aris was gonna blow the whole thing up
700
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:39.480
at this at this point, but like we do, we
701
00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:45.920
are getting the you know the sort of like just
702
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:50.280
the the sort of affirmation of what did was heroic,
703
00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:54.159
like it's it's it's it's true. Like in the end,
704
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.599
it's like that is something you would say a hero
705
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:03.280
did play the evil king to to to save millions.
706
00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:06.800
And and again it's it's that sort of like sense
707
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:10.920
of kind of like cosmic injustice that he has where
708
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:14.800
he's like, you know, he's he's like, I'm I think
709
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.559
he's talking about Tyrian or something. He's like, I'm I'm
710
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.519
loved for something I didn't do and I'm hated for
711
00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:23.800
something the one the good thing I did, or something
712
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:26.639
like that, Like I think he says that to her
713
00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:31.599
at that point. And and again just and George does
714
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:37.159
this other thing so brilliantly in the scene where it's like, uh,
715
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:41.199
just again, to feed the to feed the subversion, I
716
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:45.239
think there's there's something where it's like he says something
717
00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:48.039
just atrocious to Catlin and she's like, is there anyone
718
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:53.800
as beautiful and vile as this man? It's like it's
719
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:58.119
just again that same thing of like the the probably
720
00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:01.039
at this point, Jeoffrey is the biggest and public enemy
721
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:04.079
number one, but like Jamie's at this point not far
722
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:10.599
down the list. And so just to again like being
723
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:12.840
I'm able to escape the fact that he looks like
724
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:17.760
somebody who should be French charming and and is so
725
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:22.840
the opposite. So anyway, I do think I do think
726
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:26.840
of that clash of King's chapter first. I think that's
727
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:27.679
where you also get the.
728
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.599
There are no men because there are two, because there
729
00:43:33.639 --> 00:43:35.800
are two, because you're because you're talking about the last one,
730
00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:39.079
which is the last one, because the one before, like
731
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.440
when she goes down and he admits what happened. He's
732
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:47.199
also denying the the catspot dagger stuff and she denied,
733
00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:49.840
he denies it, and she believes them, and like she's
734
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.360
almost conflicted about believing him. And that's sort of like
735
00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:58.119
you're like, oh, like he he's and you believe him too,
736
00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:00.840
Like he's giving so much that like, and.
737
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:05.280
He's also corroborating Tarrian. It's also corroborating Tyrian side and
738
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:11.039
ruining Bailish in her head, right because because she's like,
739
00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:14.199
why would Peter lie about this? Like you know, so
740
00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:18.239
it's really just throwing a again, like he has he
741
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:21.400
has no reason to be dishonest. It's another just fascinating
742
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:27.079
aspect of the character where he's just like he owns
743
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:32.320
up to his nonsense, like even when she's him about
744
00:44:32.440 --> 00:44:34.920
like is Jeoffrey R. Child he's like, come on, lady,
745
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.039
Like you wouldn't be asking if you didn't know already,
746
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:40.239
and like he owns up to it. He's not not
747
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:45.760
playing that game. And it's it's a very their dynamic. Yeah,
748
00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:49.079
their dynamic is super cool in that and in those
749
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:54.360
chapters where they interact. But but yeah, I guess you know,
750
00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:58.519
just to go go to your like original point, I
751
00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:04.079
think to get the full story of what happened in
752
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:09.800
King's Landing that day was it's almost like vindicating because
753
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:13.199
you're probably even as a show, you're probably starting to
754
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:17.719
like this guy more as you're you're watching him. Just
755
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:19.840
get the crappy out of him. He's already lost his
756
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:24.280
hand and and it's it's just so perfectly placed in
757
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:27.119
the in the pace how supposed to feel about Jamie
758
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:32.599
because it's, you know, he's so broken, similarly to being
759
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:34.960
in the cell. He's got nothing left to lose, Like
760
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:39.280
like I don't I don't need to play this this
761
00:45:39.639 --> 00:45:42.639
this uh this game game of through it, Like I
762
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:47.320
I don't we did it. He's like, I don't need
763
00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:50.360
to do I don't need to be a bailish or
764
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.199
a varis like my my infrument is not that valuable
765
00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:57.519
in the end, like it's it's just me, like and
766
00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:01.760
and I think he has somebody who, you know, he
767
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:08.239
learns to you know, trust, somebody like Brion and and
768
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:11.679
it's sort of confronted with this very different type of
769
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:15.519
presence in his life. And and yeah, it reveals it
770
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:19.119
just compels him to to be that way. And and
771
00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.280
there's probably like a lot of different ways to look
772
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:26.679
at it, whether it's like delirium from the pain or whatever,
773
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:31.599
or the situation and whatever, or just like the need
774
00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:35.880
for this new person did not He's like, I can't
775
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:40.440
have her think of me the way the way everyone
776
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:45.199
else does. Yeah, and I don't know which I assume
777
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:48.920
that's up for debate, like which which degree you think
778
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:55.119
is the stronger one, But it's it's super fascinating, and
779
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:59.280
it end to end that to end that sort of
780
00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:02.719
thing of like you know, stop calling me that my
781
00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:06.880
name is Jamie. Like it's just this like unburdening of
782
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:11.079
the character this this this again like fortress he built
783
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:15.239
around himself to appear one way. He now wants to
784
00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:17.880
be something else, at least to this person.
785
00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:23.559
Yeah, no, it's it's it's uh, it's beautiful it's beautifully said,
786
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:26.679
It's a beautiful moment, beautifully acted. You know, I was
787
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.400
gonna ask earlier when coming into this, I was gonna
788
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:31.760
ask you what your favorite acting moments are from Nicola,
789
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:33.119
And then I was like, it's kind of a useless
790
00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:36.039
question one because he's incredible always.
791
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:39.679
Actually, actually, I think I do have an answer.
792
00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:43.239
Oh, I want to hear it, I really do.
793
00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.519
We're fast, we're fast forwarding. But it is it is
794
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:51.719
the end of season seven when he walks away with Circy. Oh,
795
00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:55.559
it's great, it's great, like like that scene. Oh, it's
796
00:47:55.599 --> 00:48:02.559
and of course it's him and Elena that I think
797
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:06.039
that I think might be a top fiver of the series.
798
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:12.280
But because it's so her based, uh, I think, I think.
799
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.280
I I think of the season seven ending a lot,
800
00:48:15.639 --> 00:48:18.599
and when when it came on, like I remember, like
801
00:48:19.039 --> 00:48:21.320
like literally had chills because I think because we were
802
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:24.000
so like on the edge of what we knew was
803
00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:26.559
gonna happen. I mean, we were quite quite what we
804
00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:30.199
knew could happen, so like there, yeah, there was like
805
00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:33.679
real peril in that moment. I remember, I have no
806
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.119
idea what's going to happen.
807
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:39.360
Yeah, I flinched when the Mountain stepped to him. I
808
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:42.480
was I literally thought it was on. I did not
809
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:46.679
know what was going to happen in that scene. It
810
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.159
was terrifying. No, it's a great moment that.
811
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:54.920
Joe Otti's cooking and and and just his I don't
812
00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:59.280
believe you Andy, and he leaves, Oh my god, Oh yeah,
813
00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:02.000
I believed literally blew me away.
814
00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:07.039
I will also give a shout out to uh nightig Bread.
815
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:11.760
The final season is uh beautifully acted by both of them,
816
00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:12.639
by everybody who was.
817
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:14.599
If they had all died, they had all died in
818
00:49:14.679 --> 00:49:16.880
that battle, that would have been.
819
00:49:18.440 --> 00:49:19.679
Would have been a great ending for them.
820
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:24.920
Uh. We could dive into like a thirty minute side
821
00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:26.639
tant litigating endings.
822
00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:29.000
We'll table that. I think I want to.
823
00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:33.079
I think an endings revisited, UH side discussion should be
824
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:34.599
done at some point. But just because we're trying to
825
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:37.920
keep all these short, do you have or shorter by
826
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:44.440
our standard? Do you have uh Jamie highlights that you
827
00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:51.320
think are more like personal your fandom, Like Jamie highlights
828
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:53.880
that that are not necessarily like the things that people
829
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:55.880
would write down for him, but just like things that
830
00:49:55.960 --> 00:50:00.280
stick out for you, even comedically or even with other people,
831
00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:02.239
like what are the moments that you go back to
832
00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:06.880
the most with them. I think it could be on
833
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:08.800
the book too. It could be something that the show
834
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:10.280
didn't do, if you want to do that as well.
835
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:15.280
Yeah, there's probably It's it's kind of like sad because
836
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.079
I probably don't remember the books as well in that regard.
837
00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:23.320
I think you've got you've got time, I know, right,
838
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:24.960
I know there's plenty of time to revisit.
839
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:29.920
There's there's a moment at the end because they're all
840
00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:33.039
going to be show. Probably I'll give the book one again.
841
00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:35.239
Sorry for Sorry for the spoiler again, it's been out
842
00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:39.239
a while. There's at the end of Feast for Crows
843
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:41.519
there's a moment where, because so much of that book
844
00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:45.519
is him building sort of the doubt, the fracturing of
845
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:50.480
his relationship with Circey. Right, they literally he literally gets
846
00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:52.760
out of town because they're not things are not going
847
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:58.920
well between them, and uh, there's the moment when she's
848
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:05.480
taken in by the high Sparrow and stuff, and she
849
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:08.679
sends a letter to him to like come help her.
850
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:12.639
He's like, Jamie, I need you. There's nobody else who
851
00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:16.639
can do this. Nobody else. I trust nobody, like nobody
852
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:19.280
like you. And he puts the letter in the fire,
853
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:23.360
and that's that's kind of how his arc ends, like
854
00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:26.039
like that's how his story ends. For Fees for Crows,
855
00:51:26.440 --> 00:51:31.079
I think is such an underrated novel and so many
856
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:35.400
storylines and on ship like that where it's like it's
857
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:39.360
like oh oh oh, like like it's things that like
858
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:41.400
if you can imagine them in the show, they'd be
859
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:45.760
like holy crap, like like the Dornish plotline ending with
860
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:49.960
fire and blood like that, like so many like mic
861
00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:53.039
drop endings, And that was kind of Jamie's mic drop
862
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:57.840
ending for that book is is this Circe pleading? And
863
00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:00.159
he's just like and he's like, any three is it
864
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:03.320
in the fire? So that's that's one book moment I
865
00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:07.239
really think about a lot and show. Ones that really
866
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:16.000
cracked me up are him Andarrian reminiscing about their cousin.
867
00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:18.119
I think the.
868
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:25.280
Like what is the names like Ormond or something or
869
00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:29.840
or well I don't know, or well I think because.
870
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:33.800
Ville it could be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's a
871
00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:35.840
really smash one day.
872
00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:43.639
Yeah, their gold together, they're great together.
873
00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:46.840
Yeah, Jamie. The training sessions I think about a lot
874
00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:56.719
and and uh, man, yeah, just everything about him and Brion,
875
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:01.239
especially especially what he gives her keeper. I think about
876
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:06.159
that a lot and and just sort of yeah, I
877
00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:09.079
remember season four opening with that the milking dice, and
878
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:13.239
and then that scene with Taiwan giving him the sword,
879
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:17.320
and he's kind of just like, you know, like it's
880
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:21.320
it's just so many great things happen with him, in particular,
881
00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:27.400
just the sort of melting away of his no world right,
882
00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:32.760
like he's it's like, yes, yes, he he was always
883
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:36.559
Dad's precious son, even when he let that down, and
884
00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:43.039
that really just begins to dissipate, you know, through that season,
885
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:46.960
and so like that. It stuff his relationship with Surc,
886
00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:51.800
and I guess the the Terrian relationship doesn't get the
887
00:53:51.880 --> 00:53:54.639
complications that the book gives it it. They leave it
888
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:58.880
pretty pretty sweet. I think that scene too, when he
889
00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:03.159
lets him out and then yeah, I know, I know
890
00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:07.519
you said we'll do. Man, I'm probably leaving off so
891
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:12.639
many things that I shouldn't be, but I I even
892
00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:16.760
though he's not in it. I I sobbed like a
893
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:20.440
baby when Brian is filling out his pages.
894
00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:24.079
Oh well, when I said, I don't want to do
895
00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:26.079
ending discords. It's not because I don't want to.
896
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:26.880
It's right.
897
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:32.079
It will take so long to talk about the Brion
898
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:35.679
romance and and the show having it and then did
899
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:38.559
they walk okay back back?
900
00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:42.320
Is it try? Is it toxic? Is it? It's just
901
00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:45.679
so much But that, separately from what led to it,
902
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:47.880
that is a perfect scene.
903
00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:51.079
I mean, like just that much.
904
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:53.360
And I'm glad you brought it up because it I
905
00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:56.039
hate to get the little bastard, well, I was gonna
906
00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:57.719
I hate to give the little bastard any credit. But
907
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:02.880
the the Jeoffrey with the book is maybe my favorite
908
00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:06.480
Geoffrey scene. And it's a great Jamie scene too, of uncle.
909
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:14.239
It's like it's just not only not only is it
910
00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:20.639
so mean and and Jamie has the perfect answer, right, like, man,
911
00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:25.159
there's still time and uh and and not only is
912
00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:28.000
that always funny, but it's it's especially funny because now
913
00:55:28.079 --> 00:55:35.480
Jeoffrey has technically spoiled both spinoff shows, but yeah, openly
914
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:40.679
and specifically yeah, and and doing so gleefully right, Like
915
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:44.039
it's almost like he knows, he's he knows these pissing
916
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:50.679
people off outside of the characters, He's like it's fascinating.
917
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:53.440
Catching up on HBO. Are you looking back at the
918
00:55:53.519 --> 00:56:00.719
original show exactly exactly. It's it's brutal, it's brutal, but.
919
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:06.320
But yeah, like pairing, pairing those scenes together, was it
920
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:08.480
like in your when you in your head or if
921
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:11.719
you get a very clever edit of you know that
922
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:15.119
kind of stuff. I I love that ending. You know, again,
923
00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.079
there's a lot of there's a lot of messy metal
924
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:22.760
ground and and some things that I think have value. Yeah, yeah,
925
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:25.440
I think I think there are ways you can look
926
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:30.639
at the way Jamie's ark ultimately ends with him in
927
00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:34.840
the world, but and that that have merit where when
928
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:39.400
maybe or you know, maybe there were other more satisfying ways,
929
00:56:39.559 --> 00:56:45.000
but just at least that moment for because it's also
930
00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:48.320
such a mass moment for Brion to write those pages.
931
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:52.920
That's like therapy for her, right like two to unburden
932
00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:55.840
that I mean again talking about great actors, like the
933
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:59.400
way Gwendolyn does that same with the tears in her
934
00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:04.519
eyes doing like it's just you know, it's so it's
935
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:09.519
kind of like I really love that the show when
936
00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:12.880
it's like here's the last word on Jen, I love that.
937
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:13.840
It's a beautiful scene.
938
00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:18.159
Yeah, and it's to tie it in with you know,
939
00:57:18.280 --> 00:57:18.719
your note.
940
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:21.719
The threat of this whole conversation has been perception, right,
941
00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:25.239
and how he is a creature who I feel we're
942
00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:26.880
just like other guys in this world. I feel like
943
00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:31.559
his own father is obviously entirely motivated by a perception.
944
00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:35.000
Turian's whole life is kind of like that damon.
945
00:57:35.320 --> 00:57:35.480
You know.
946
00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.000
Years prior in House of the Dragon, I've talked a
947
00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:41.199
lot about how he is a character that's so aware
948
00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:43.760
of his role and where he fits and how he
949
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:45.719
doesn't fit, and what his brother thinks of him, and
950
00:57:46.880 --> 00:57:49.880
that Jamie, even though he isn't around to know it.
951
00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:53.840
When when it's all said and done, you know, Brion,
952
00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:54.639
she she called it.
953
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:55.920
She called it like she saw it.
954
00:57:56.719 --> 00:58:00.599
She spoke truth and the facts are there, But like
955
00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:04.880
she doesn't say, like the kings Slayer, you know, was
956
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:09.440
a sister efing this that who died because he couldn't
957
00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:13.000
pick a side. She keeps it at he died in
958
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:15.559
service of protecting his queen, like and that it's a
959
00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:20.840
very just like it's generous, it's it's a compassionate read.
960
00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:23.599
It doesn't betray things that she was told in confidence,
961
00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:28.639
but it indicates Uh, it's not neutral. It's not neutral,
962
00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:31.159
it's it's an act of care. Like it's just uh,
963
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:33.400
but it doesn't have to overplay its hand, you know,
964
00:58:33.480 --> 00:58:35.599
the people that know. No, you know, I'm sure she can.
965
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:37.519
I'm sure she can talk to Tyrian about him if
966
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:40.679
she wants. But those are those are things for her.
967
00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:45.679
I just read it as sort of like for her,
968
00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:49.559
it's like a forgiveness flash, like self forgiveness thing. That's
969
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:54.440
how I always twik m. Whereas like I'm gonna unburden
970
00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:59.440
that experience for me. But it is also just again fascinating,
971
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:04.239
Like you said, like Taiwan Lanister's only thing is legacy, right,
972
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:09.960
And it's like, in the end, how will Tewyn be remembered?
973
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:15.239
And I'm gonna say probably, I doubt with what's gone on,
974
00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:20.400
there's too much to remember about it. Like I don't think.
975
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:22.519
I think you know, people will be like, oh yeah,
976
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:24.840
Taiwan Lanister. But also you know, we had white Walkers
977
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:28.159
and then this lady blew up the seat with her dragon.
978
00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:35.159
But Jamie Lanister's legacy is in pages of this sacred
979
00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:41.679
book and will be that for the generations to follow.
980
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:46.519
As long as wester Ross still stands and Kingsguard still exists,
981
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:55.320
like the the the the commendations and feats of Kings
982
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:00.639
will be remembered and and and again. Like yeah, like Brian,
983
01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:04.280
Brian made the choice to do that in a way
984
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:09.400
that isn't slanderous or anything, but is is yeah, just
985
01:00:09.400 --> 01:00:12.639
straight up, straight up honest. I I just I love
986
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:16.880
the little things when she's like he like completely routed
987
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:23.280
them like the undefeated Army of the Like she's she's
988
01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:26.719
like even hyping him right like and it's and it's
989
01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:30.119
like it's a really like beautiful thing of forgiveness, I
990
01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:33.559
think in the end, and and just sort of like
991
01:00:34.360 --> 01:00:36.800
she felt like she she she kind of owed that
992
01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:41.559
much at least. And I always laugh at one of
993
01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:45.239
the memes around that time when the finale aird and
994
01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:47.039
you know, obviously a lot of people had a lot
995
01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:51.239
of things to say, but but one of the one
996
01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:52.960
of them is her writing in the book and then
997
01:00:53.519 --> 01:01:04.360
it's the screenshot from me and girls like this, So yeah,
998
01:01:04.599 --> 01:01:06.239
I uh yeah, I love.
999
01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.800
The point that you brought up about Taiwan, about Taiwan
1000
01:01:08.840 --> 01:01:12.079
with Legacy, because Taiwan's intro scene is a Jamie scene,
1001
01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:15.639
and in the show it's played so perfectly. It's when
1002
01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:18.880
you get one of my favorite line deliveries, maybe ever,
1003
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:20.400
I was gonna say, a Game of Thrones and maybe
1004
01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:24.159
in anything ever television or film, which is big knife
1005
01:01:24.199 --> 01:01:24.559
in hand.
1006
01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:28.880
There's not an opinion, it's a fact, like.
1007
01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:32.760
That's gonna be That's gonna be under tombstone.
1008
01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:39.159
Honestly, it might because Jamie really thinks he has something there.
1009
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:40.519
He thinks he got dad.
1010
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:44.239
When he's like, so the line does cons and Taiwand
1011
01:01:44.360 --> 01:01:47.360
is like, don't you ever try to get snarky with me?
1012
01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:50.559
Yeah, don't you ever?
1013
01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:53.360
And and it, but it puts Jamie under the thumb,
1014
01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:55.719
like really early in the story of what that means.
1015
01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:58.079
And obviously the books are not complete, so if we
1016
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:00.519
just take it as show endings, it's like, what is
1017
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:04.960
Taiwan's legacy the mad Well, you know, they'll probably call
1018
01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:08.760
Denaris the mad Queen, but like unfortunately, but you know,
1019
01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:11.480
you had the crazy incession, his daughter who blew up
1020
01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:16.679
the stept and was an insane by the end, basically
1021
01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:20.320
terrorist of a tyrant woman with a zombie protector. So like,
1022
01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:25.440
horrible mark on your legacy. You have the controversial, but
1023
01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:28.840
you know, we'll probably be doing better going forward hand
1024
01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:31.320
of the king's son. But you hated him and he
1025
01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:34.199
killed you, so that's a mark against legacy. The only
1026
01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:37.559
good thing that you're left with really to your name
1027
01:02:38.079 --> 01:02:40.400
is the son that you thought was an idiot who
1028
01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:45.320
really cared about knighthood and only ever had knighthood either
1029
01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:49.960
weaponized against him for his own reputation, or was a
1030
01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:56.400
pawn in Tywan's machinations, like Aris using Jamie's knighthood to
1031
01:02:56.519 --> 01:02:58.440
fuck with Taiwan, you.
1032
01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:00.960
Know, being a politics of it all.
1033
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:04.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like Jamie's knighthood was always tied to like,
1034
01:03:05.239 --> 01:03:08.280
oh it was just nice knighthood, but his position on
1035
01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:11.320
the King's guard was always a an era of like
1036
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.960
obviously he earned it by skill and he probably would
1037
01:03:13.960 --> 01:03:16.320
have gotten on anyway, but like, was I just named
1038
01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:21.719
here to bring ruin to the house And that is
1039
01:03:21.800 --> 01:03:24.800
finally shaken, I think by the end, and that there's
1040
01:03:24.840 --> 01:03:27.559
no mention of him. He stands on his own. You know,
1041
01:03:27.679 --> 01:03:29.119
do you know how hard it is to be your
1042
01:03:29.159 --> 01:03:29.599
own man?
1043
01:03:30.440 --> 01:03:32.000
When you're telling me, man.
1044
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:38.079
A new meme has truly been born, and it is
1045
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:40.920
we're gonna get mileage out of that one. Yeah, I
1046
01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:44.280
think my last question, oh go ahead, yeah, the last question.
1047
01:03:44.199 --> 01:03:45.960
No, I was I was really just gonna say, like,
1048
01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:49.280
you know, there probably will have to be Jamie Part two,
1049
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:52.599
because yes, I think there's there's so many like family
1050
01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:56.000
dynamics that or and like just the reason of why
1051
01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:58.960
for so much of him, you know, like he only
1052
01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:01.000
really went to kings Landing to stay with Mercy, like
1053
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:04.800
he probably would have been forced to stay in Casterly Rock.
1054
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:08.960
But you know, the very is very I don't know
1055
01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:11.599
even know what we're to use for it, what adjective
1056
01:04:11.639 --> 01:04:14.719
to use for their relationship, because again, you know there's
1057
01:04:15.559 --> 01:04:18.280
where it's like it's one of the more honest love
1058
01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:22.039
affairs in in the the universe of Westers, and so
1059
01:04:22.159 --> 01:04:22.440
it's like.
1060
01:04:22.559 --> 01:04:22.880
I don't know.
1061
01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:28.599
Yet whatever you want to call it. Because again in
1062
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:32.039
that Catlan scene where where he's like he's like, you know,
1063
01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:36.880
I've only ever been with my sister, but honorable Ned
1064
01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:42.639
went behind your back, like like there's just always there, always,
1065
01:04:43.159 --> 01:04:46.760
you know, there's always an angle. So like there's a
1066
01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:49.800
lot to talk about. Still, I don't want I don't
1067
01:04:49.800 --> 01:04:53.559
want people to think we got like we are these
1068
01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:55.199
like nitty gritty.
1069
01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:56.800
Character.
1070
01:04:57.920 --> 01:05:00.440
The way they are, We're definitely gonna have to do
1071
01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:04.719
a part two. You're right, there's so much, there's so
1072
01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:07.800
much to dig into with just like his changes. There's
1073
01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:09.760
stuff that like, there's thoughts that I had that like
1074
01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:12.480
we just can't back into an hour of like how
1075
01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:14.960
how uncomfortable it is to see especially like in the
1076
01:05:15.039 --> 01:05:18.199
show when he's back in the King's Guard Gold, especially
1077
01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:21.199
like for the wedding and stuff like it just looks,
1078
01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:23.760
you know, like short haired Jamie and that armor. He
1079
01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:27.599
looks like a prisoner, even though he's walking around with power. Again,
1080
01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:29.360
he looks like a prisoner, Like it's such a weird
1081
01:05:29.519 --> 01:05:30.320
dynamic when he does.
1082
01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:33.360
Yeah, he does. He's been changed.
1083
01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:36.719
Well and well and on a real one. And then
1084
01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:38.599
well then we'll close on something fun. I'll think of
1085
01:05:38.639 --> 01:05:42.239
something fun while you're talking, because I asked this to
1086
01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:44.840
Andy about Brian and it was and ended up with
1087
01:05:44.880 --> 01:05:49.159
a funny answer. I asked Andy, what challenges you about Brian?
1088
01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:50.920
You know you love this character so much, what really
1089
01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:53.920
challenges you? And Andy's answer was book Brand's kind of dumb,
1090
01:05:54.599 --> 01:05:57.239
which I think is a great edd Like she's just
1091
01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:01.079
academically written to be not as smart and capable in
1092
01:06:01.199 --> 01:06:04.159
some ways, as as as Gwendolen's. Is this something that
1093
01:06:04.400 --> 01:06:06.320
rubs you the wrong way about Jamie, like in a
1094
01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:08.320
real way, or something that you're like, come on, man
1095
01:06:08.679 --> 01:06:10.719
like or or or something that that.
1096
01:06:13.039 --> 01:06:16.519
This is certainly a book thing. I can't remember the
1097
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:24.000
extent to the show. Does this? It probably does, but
1098
01:06:24.079 --> 01:06:26.559
I just don't remember. So I'm gonna angle it more
1099
01:06:26.639 --> 01:06:29.559
towards the book. He has as of yet in the
1100
01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:34.719
book accepted it was the wrong thing to try to
1101
01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:35.559
kill a child.
1102
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:41.199
Yeah, you may have.
1103
01:06:41.320 --> 01:06:43.920
You may have watched the episodes more recently than I have,
1104
01:06:44.239 --> 01:06:49.480
because obviously the premiere of season eight as with an
1105
01:06:49.559 --> 01:06:54.639
all timer, great brand Jamie kind of like Showdown with
1106
01:06:55.039 --> 01:07:04.800
the the Fergies London Bridge mean version of That's so,
1107
01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:11.519
I don't remember if they really if he's really like
1108
01:07:12.920 --> 01:07:15.440
sorry man, I think he does. I think he doesn't.
1109
01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:18.440
He apologizes, I don't remember what he says, but he
1110
01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:19.199
does apologize.
1111
01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:23.079
But I feel like in the books, in the books
1112
01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:28.000
he's gone on this like very significant character arc slash
1113
01:07:28.199 --> 01:07:31.599
reveal slash whatever is like the right word for it.
1114
01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:35.079
But he doesn't. I don't if he's really gotten to
1115
01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:40.000
the place of like, yeah, like it's like, yeah, he's
1116
01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:44.639
lying about it. He owes up to it, but I
1117
01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:48.679
don't think he's quite calculated that it was wrong to
1118
01:07:48.840 --> 01:07:51.159
try to kill the kid. But then you know, I
1119
01:07:51.199 --> 01:07:55.079
don't I don't know, Like the currency with which people
1120
01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:59.400
do things in this world is different, right, Like I
1121
01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:02.960
think that's you know, the one of the things that
1122
01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:07.559
always bugs me about sort of the way Danariss looked
1123
01:08:07.639 --> 01:08:12.000
upon when she like cutes Harley's it's like she didn't
1124
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:14.440
do anything someone else wouldn't have done, Like someone else
1125
01:08:14.440 --> 01:08:16.800
would have done it the exact same thing she did
1126
01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:21.600
it with the dragon. And you know, the terms of
1127
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:29.159
the terms of you know, processing and negotiating and making
1128
01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:31.279
you know, what people are willing to forgive are very
1129
01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:34.960
different in Westero. So maybe maybe this this guy can't
1130
01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:37.720
even imagine that, you know, I had kill him because
1131
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:41.399
you know he's gonna reveal a secret, right. But I
1132
01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:45.439
would say that's probably the most challenging thing is just
1133
01:08:46.279 --> 01:08:49.399
for as much as all the good he does, you
1134
01:08:49.479 --> 01:08:53.039
can't really escape the fact that right right off the
1135
01:08:53.119 --> 01:08:54.840
bat he tried to kid.
1136
01:08:58.359 --> 01:09:02.439
Yeah it's not great, uh, but it does make for
1137
01:09:02.479 --> 01:09:04.399
great TV, and I think that he's why a lot
1138
01:09:04.399 --> 01:09:06.600
of people tuned in for the next Is it.
1139
01:09:06.920 --> 01:09:08.800
One of the best, Is it one of the best
1140
01:09:08.840 --> 01:09:12.640
pilot it kind of has, it has to be.
1141
01:09:13.039 --> 01:09:13.479
It has to be.
1142
01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:17.319
If not the best, it's insane. And his line delivery
1143
01:09:17.399 --> 01:09:21.000
is perfect. Of things I do for love is perfect? Right,
1144
01:09:21.680 --> 01:09:23.920
Last question, just to be on on something light and
1145
01:09:24.119 --> 01:09:29.760
and again unique to you. What is a Jamie Lanister uh,
1146
01:09:30.680 --> 01:09:34.479
piece of merchandise that does not exist that you would
1147
01:09:34.600 --> 01:09:37.479
like to will into existence? What is something that he
1148
01:09:37.680 --> 01:09:40.199
has that you're like, I would wear that, I would
1149
01:09:40.279 --> 01:09:42.800
cosplay that. I want that prop. I want the thing
1150
01:09:42.840 --> 01:09:45.359
because I I you know, my mind for Jamie is
1151
01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:47.399
very easy, but I think it already exists. Is that
1152
01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:49.520
I would just like to have the gold hand like
1153
01:09:49.600 --> 01:09:50.319
as like a shelf.
1154
01:09:50.600 --> 01:10:03.359
Yeah, that's a good one. Hm hmm. I really I
1155
01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:07.800
really like him when he's in Lanister arm. I think
1156
01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:13.159
there's something really cool about that look in particular. So
1157
01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:16.520
maybe if I would going on a cosplay angle, that'd
1158
01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:18.600
be kind of cool. But then I just like a
1159
01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:24.760
Lanister soldier maybe, and maybe that's less great. I think
1160
01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:28.800
I think there's one thing that I do think is
1161
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:33.640
kind of cool again, and in sort of the way
1162
01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:36.600
and where you can say, like maybe this is a
1163
01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:45.520
reclamation as opposed to like keeping it, uh, sort of
1164
01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:48.640
like tied to someone who we don't like. But I'd
1165
01:10:48.760 --> 01:10:51.479
like that he uses I like that he uses the
1166
01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:55.239
other Widow's whale. I don't know if he renames it,
1167
01:10:55.399 --> 01:10:58.279
but I like that he's sort of when Jeffrey is dead,
1168
01:10:58.399 --> 01:11:00.239
he sort of and he gives it was keeper way
1169
01:11:00.359 --> 01:11:04.600
he takes that one, and and there's something there's something
1170
01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:08.359
in the end that I kind of like about. You know,
1171
01:11:09.840 --> 01:11:13.600
he knew that sort came from and it sort of
1172
01:11:13.720 --> 01:11:19.840
felt right being with somebody who kind of understood the
1173
01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:23.119
you know, at least had had a respect for the Starks,
1174
01:11:23.319 --> 01:11:25.159
you know, and and sort of took it away from
1175
01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:29.560
being Jeoffrey sword. So so now thinking kind of thinking
1176
01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:32.079
maybe that sword would be cool because I think they
1177
01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:33.159
made like an oath keeper.
1178
01:11:34.039 --> 01:11:38.279
But there's oath keepers and there's book oathkeeper.
1179
01:11:38.319 --> 01:11:39.880
I think Andy has book Oathkeeper.
1180
01:11:40.399 --> 01:11:40.560
Uh.
1181
01:11:41.600 --> 01:11:42.520
That's a great point.
1182
01:11:43.720 --> 01:11:45.960
I like the ruby pommel also on that sword. It's
1183
01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:46.479
very cool.
1184
01:11:46.640 --> 01:11:47.960
It's sick. No.
1185
01:11:48.119 --> 01:11:50.319
I love that point too, because it's like cat it's
1186
01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:52.760
not like him and Cat were close, obviously not, but
1187
01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:56.319
like him and Brion fulfill something.
1188
01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:59.000
For her or try to, they spiritually try to do right.
1189
01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:02.079
And so that day that yeah, like at least you
1190
01:12:02.239 --> 01:12:05.199
know that there's like that, the remnants of Ice are
1191
01:12:05.319 --> 01:12:07.920
carried with you know, people doing their best, you know.
1192
01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:11.840
Versus and and then he knights he knights Brian with
1193
01:12:11.960 --> 01:12:16.279
that sort knights Brian. So so maybe I'll go with that.
1194
01:12:16.600 --> 01:12:19.439
I don't know. I will not call it Jeoffrey's sword
1195
01:12:19.479 --> 01:12:22.239
Widow's will, but I would think of it as jas
1196
01:12:22.239 --> 01:12:23.840
sword that he united Brion with.
1197
01:12:24.079 --> 01:12:29.359
And also not for nothing, not for nothing, this could
1198
01:12:29.359 --> 01:12:31.000
be its own episode and maybe we'll you know what,
1199
01:12:31.359 --> 01:12:32.479
let's hold me to this.
1200
01:12:32.560 --> 01:12:35.279
If you're watching listening, we at some point should get
1201
01:12:35.319 --> 01:12:37.800
Ken and maybe whoever else wants to come and do
1202
01:12:37.960 --> 01:12:41.920
a group discussion about how awesome it would be if
1203
01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:47.920
we had a robust like peak Hasbro Star Wars, Ice
1204
01:12:47.960 --> 01:12:49.159
and fire finger line.
1205
01:12:49.359 --> 01:12:51.560
Yeah, because the fact that we don't like them have
1206
01:12:51.760 --> 01:12:54.039
like are we talking like black series level?
1207
01:12:54.319 --> 01:12:58.159
Like well, I'm talking like black Well black series level
1208
01:12:58.239 --> 01:13:00.279
right now, which would be you know, bleak, Like.
1209
01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:04.399
I mean, like give me eight Star Wars.
1210
01:13:04.479 --> 01:13:06.880
Now that there's that many characters, like, there should be
1211
01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:10.119
a Jamie throughout the seasons. You should be able to
1212
01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:14.119
get Jamie red Armor with widows Will, Jamie King's Guard,
1213
01:13:14.319 --> 01:13:18.760
Jamie Leather, fatigues, Jamie mud Jamie.
1214
01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:22.000
This is if this is yeah, if this is high,
1215
01:13:22.319 --> 01:13:26.399
if this is high like High Tide Star Wars action figuring,
1216
01:13:26.800 --> 01:13:30.199
we probably have Jamie like behind the scenes, Jamie with
1217
01:13:30.399 --> 01:13:35.880
the fake prosthetic and his real hand. We probably have
1218
01:13:35.920 --> 01:13:37.319
all all, as.
1219
01:13:37.239 --> 01:13:39.479
You said, behind the scenes. So you said behind the scenes.
1220
01:13:39.479 --> 01:13:41.520
I will close this by saying, and then then we
1221
01:13:41.560 --> 01:13:44.600
will go. I will close this by saying, the hit
1222
01:13:44.680 --> 01:13:47.560
clip of Peter and Nicola I dancing into the trial
1223
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:51.199
is one of the best clips of anything.
1224
01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:55.279
It's so so joyful doing the little dances and everything
1225
01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:57.920
like it is. It's the best. It's the best.
1226
01:13:58.159 --> 01:14:01.760
Yeh that I can't wait to talk about Tyrian on
1227
01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:04.520
one of these Yeah, this has been so much fun, man.
1228
01:14:04.560 --> 01:14:05.800
And then yeah, like you said, we'll have to do
1229
01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:07.560
a part two. I'll have to do some Jamie follow ups.
1230
01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:10.920
If anybody has specific things that you're like, oh, you know,
1231
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:12.600
there's so much Jami stuff. You should have talked about this,
1232
01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:14.600
or you should talk about this, or talk more about
1233
01:14:14.640 --> 01:14:16.640
his battle highlights, talk more about his career.
1234
01:14:17.159 --> 01:14:18.800
Trust me, we want to and we will.
1235
01:14:18.960 --> 01:14:22.520
Leave those in the comments. Nicky's links will be down below.
1236
01:14:23.239 --> 01:14:25.520
This is the Fast Plugs version. Nicky's links are down below.
1237
01:14:25.560 --> 01:14:27.520
My links are down below. Ken's links are down below.
1238
01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:29.680
Boom, there you go. You don't care about any of that.
1239
01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:31.880
We're gonna get right out of here. Thank you so much.
1240
01:14:32.359 --> 01:14:33.640
I have been all the in. This has been Nicky,
1241
01:14:33.640 --> 01:14:35.800
and we will catch you next time. Right here, I'll
1242
01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:36.720
cashually talk about