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You're tuned into Bulk Beans and Bicycles, a beautiful, bountiful podcast brought to you by Circle Game Inc.
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about how sweet life is on the other side of living more sustainably.
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Please give it up for your co-hosts, Hayden Kessinger and Evelyn Wallace.
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Hi, everybody.
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Welcome back.
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Hayden, I'm so excited to be here with you.
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We have a really great show planned.
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Um, we're just gonna start today with a little bit of uh getting to know each other again, introducing us to you guys, the listeners, and then moving into um our three segments of the show.
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You ready for that, Hayden?
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Yeah.
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Cool.
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All right, so yeah, why don't you tell folks just a little bit about what brings you to this work?
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And then I would also love to hear um about these uh upcoming travel plans I I'm hearing about.
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Yeah, well, uh we might we might not be only friends through the internet for much longer if we if we manage to see each other uh coming up soon.
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Yes.
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Uh so yeah, I I'm in Maryland and I got into sustainability in college um most like seriously, but kind of grew up just outside my whole life, which I think really set the stage for having a passion for it.
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Sure.
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Um, just loving spending time with with my sister, especially outside, uh chasing after frogs and eating dirt and which is literally uh a memory.
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Well, no, I don't know if I actually mem remember it, but uh my sister definitely likes to tell people that oh, very good.
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She must be your older sister.
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Yes, yes.
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Um, and I think she played an important role in me finding uh dirt especially tasty as a child.
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Classic older sister move.
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Well done.
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You know what?
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Building immunity since the beginning of time.
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Exactly.
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Brought to you by dirt.
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Yeah, so I mean, that's really like at the core of my motivation to to be in this in this space and and have a passion for living sustainably is just a deep love of the outdoors.
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And I was really fortunate to to grow up in an environment conducive to that.
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Um, but obviously it's not required either to to get there.
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Yeah, right.
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No, no one right way.
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No.
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So okay, so you mentioned something about not just being friends online anymore.
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Somehow it sounds so like there sounds like something nefarious about like calling online friends, but it doesn't feel that way at all.
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I feel like colleagues who just have a lot of virtual meetings, you know.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I'm going to be, so I'm in Maryland, you're in Oregon, and I'm going to be traveling across the country in just a couple days.
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So I'm here getting my apartment ready, cleaning up a little bit and packing um for a bus ride across the country, yeah.
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Which uh we'll talk about uh later pretty soon.
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But um, I'm gonna be going to a wedding in Vancouver, Washington, which is right next to Portland, Oregon, and you're not far from there.
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And so it seems that the stars may be aligning and we'll at least be able to say hi.
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Yes, exactly.
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Definitely closer than Maryland.
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So we're I feel like we're we are problem-solving folk who are gonna solve the problem of being so close that we should be able to hang out.
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Yeah, I feel like we will hang out.
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Yeah.
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Um, cool.
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Well, listen, on that note, in this segment, this segment we call ya but, um, because we all have our own inner yah buts.
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Hayden, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Um not wrong at all.
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Not wrong, right?
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I think we're we we all feel them.
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We are, I mean, even Hayden and I are at different places in our own journey, so we're gonna have different yah buts.
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Although, yeah, hope I'm not giving too much away.
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Hayden, do you want to share a Yah but that you have heard or felt in your sustainability experience?
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So the the one that I alluded to uh earlier is that yeah, I don't want to support the use of fossil fuels as much as I can, but I also really would love to travel the world.
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And uh, you know, like some of the some of the justifications uh I come up with for, you know, like I want to travel the world.
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It's you know, so many other people have already.
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Why don't I get to?
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Or like even if I flew around the world 10 times or probably even more than that, it wouldn't add up to the the pollution from a single billionaire or millionaire or something like that.
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Um and you know, I rarely drive or use private vehicles on a regular basis, and I do other things good, so surely I can, you know, I get to go fly somewhere and yeah, experience a different part of the world, yeah.
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And I think all those do have, I mean, there's truth to all of them, and I think there is some merit to them.
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And to be completely honest, and I talk to you, Evelyn, about this quite a bit, is that I may fly one day to Europe or Asia or Australia or somewhere else for a grand adventure.
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But right now, to me, that just doesn't feel doesn't feel right to just go somewhere just for the sake of enjoying it.
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And through experience, I know now that there's a lot of ways to travel that don't include flying and may still include fossil fuels, which I still have conflict about, but it's at least an effort to do something differently and do it a little bit better than the alternative.
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And I know that those ways of traveling are extremely rewarding.
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Um, yeah.
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Well, you talked about you have an upcoming bus trip from Maryland to Washington State.
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So exactly that I guess what would you say to someone whose next yeah but would be like, yeah, but I don't have that kind of time.
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Yeah, very and in a way, fair.
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And again, you know, there's merit to that.
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And uh I I sympathize with that, and I feel that too.
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It's like I'm spending three days to get from Baltimore to Portland instead of a few hours in a plane.
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And there's part of me that's like, I mean, that kind of sucks.
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But I'm also like so excited for this bus ride, right?
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Because even though I know the adventure, right?
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Exactly.
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It is, it really is, and it's taken some time to end up in that mindset.
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Um, but like I said, through experiences that I've already had, that is the mindset that I find myself in, which is being really excited.
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And I know that there will be frustrating and uncomfortable parts of the bus ride, and it's a long time on a bus, and you know, there's stops and changes and stuff, so it's not like sitting on a bus for three days straight.
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But um I know that there will be difficult parts and parts where I'm like, ugh, this kind of sucks.
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Yeah, but it'll be unique and it'll be beautiful.
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I'll see new parts of the country.
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Like I'm I'm gonna be the bus is going to be traveling in parts of the country I've never been to.
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Oh, cool.
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And yeah, I'll be able to chill out and look out the window and drink it in and take naps and take naps be worried about driving off the road and catch up on some reading that I want to do and some writing, and maybe even meet some random people on the bus and have cool conversations with them.
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Um so there's there's just lots of cool, cool things about it, I think.
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And I also think it's just cool to me to do things differently.
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Um I think it's it's just kind of fun to be like, yeah, I'm taking a bus across the country because now it is so common to to get there much faster.
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Yeah.
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Um and to to bring it back to your question of like, yeah, but three days just to get to the other side of the country.
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And I know that that's that is a lot of time, like we don't, we don't have infinite time, but I'm building my life with the understanding that I do want to travel more slowly.
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So if I want if I want this, if I want travel and adventure to be part of my life, then I know that it will be different than how it is for a lot of people, which might be a half a day of travel and then spending some time in one place and then a half a day travel back or something like that.
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Um you know, go ahead, Evelyn.
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I've been I've been rambling.
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I just have so many thoughts.
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I it makes me think like what you're talking about three days versus a few hours.
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Um, I think it was Louis C.K.
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who I'm sorry, he got canceled, or we're not supposed to quote him anymore.
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But he he had insightful things to say.
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Sure.
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And so I'm gonna quote him.
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Sorry if that upsets people, but he was like, he was like, You we we that trip used to take months.
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Yeah, like it wasn't even the same, people would die.
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Like it wasn't even the same group as what started.
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People had babies, it was like a whole season of life.
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Like how soon we become acclimated, forgive the, I don't know, maybe aviary pun, but like to this sense of the expectation being that we can only do it in a few, or that we that it's we're supposed to travel 3,000 miles in a few hours, as opposed to like even 3,000 miles.
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I assume that's uh more or less the rough cut of how far you're going.
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It like even in three days seems like it only feels like a lot of time if you compare it to this weirdly new technology that we now seem like we can't live without.
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Yeah.
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And like, don't get me wrong, it's a it's quite a feat of our human abilities that we like created planes and I mean have been using automobiles and such to get places, like it's pretty crazy, but that doesn't mean it's you know, that doesn't mean it's what we should continue doing all the time necessarily.
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Um and again, I just think there's so much value to be had in a slower version of travel.
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And if I if I did have even more time and I felt comfortable taking even more time away from the old job, uh I would I would do it on a bike if I could.
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Like I would have, I would, I would be in the middle of the country right now, or or almost in my destination by now, uh, on my bike, and would have left, you know, a month ago if I if I really felt up to it.
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Um but you know, this is the next best thing, and it's something I haven't done before, and that's really exciting to me.
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Um and yeah, and and kind of like I said in in one of our previous episodes, you know, I only have control over my own actions, my own outputs.
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Bingo.
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The only I can only put my money where I want it to go.
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Um, I don't have control over anybody else's finances or anything.
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So it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing or the billionaires are doing.
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It's you know, I I can only do what I can do.
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And uh to me, this feels this feels right.
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Yeah, great.
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Man, I also want to acknowledge that you mentioned that there is probably gonna be some discomfort.
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There's probably gonna be some moments of like groaning and moaning.
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And my first thought was, yeah, tell show me one airport where there's not discomfort and there's not moaning and groaning.
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So it's not like one system of travel like exempts you from that, you know, experience.
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Um, and yeah, just I really appreciate that sense of slowed downness of like, okay, what so since when like why do we think that this activity has to happen in this amount of time?
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Like, what is the value for this activity happening over a longer amount of time?
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And it's not just less value.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, yes, you articulated something I was kind of struggling to get across.
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Yeah.
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There it's different value, I think is like the key word.
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It it's different and it's valuable in in new ways.
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Sure.
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I love that.
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Yeah, and I guess last thing I do want to not forget to say something back to is that sense of like, well, I haven't traveled the world, but I don't I deserve it.
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Like, didn't I earn it?
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Like other people have.
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And as someone who has, I mean, you and I have talked about my experience in India.
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I mean, that's not that's just the beginning.
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Yeah.
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I feel I don't know if it's guilty.
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I don't know if guilty is the right word because what's the point of that?
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But there is a sense of like, I I there's there's an experience that you are living that I cannot identify with because I have seen the other side of that curtain.
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And I can also tell you that since I have stopped flying, since I have committed to never stepping voluntarily on a plane again, um I just it just wouldn't feel good.
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And again, this is not as our I'm not telling our listeners what to do.
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I'm just explaining where I've come in my own sort of one step at a time.
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I guess I've discovered that all of the things I was looking for by going far away, I can get and not just things like items, things like experiences and feelings.
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I can get them here closer without having to escape, without having to treat my home territory as some place that's not good enough to stay through my relaxation days.
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So that's also something I wanted to leave there.
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Yeah, beautiful.
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Thanks.
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Thanks, Evelyn.
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So listen, this segment, the Yeah but segment, is a lot about us.
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And we want to make sure that the whole podcast isn't just me talking about me and you talking about you, Aiden.
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So we are going to move into a section we call heroes of history, where we uh feature someone living or no longer with us, or a group of someones who have done something we find heroic.
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Now, uh honestly, it doesn't have to be like it's not a cape, you know, people aren't wearing capes here.
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They're usually just doing something that the world said, we don't do it that way.
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And they were like, um, maybe we could.
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Or maybe, maybe we could rethink this.
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So on that note, I am going to introduce the hero of history today, Ray Anderson.
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Now, before he is no longer with us, I did the I did enough of that homework this time.
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He he was a um a leader of business.
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He was a leader of industry.
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And before I tell you what that industry is, I'm going to play a little guessing game with you.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So there are some industries that are notoriously pollutive and depletive.
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It's like you pull back the curtain a little and you know, Google it basically, and uh you'll see.
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Um, so I want you to guess which notoriously pollutive or depletive industry did Ray Anderson work in.
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Are you ready?
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And he's he founded his company in 1973.
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And even though he's no longer with us, his company's still in business, if that gives you any hint.
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Gotcha.
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Okay, so A, is the industry Ray Anderson worked in carpeting?
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B is the notoriously pollutive or depletive industry orange juice?
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Oh.
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C, is it, yeah.
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So let's let's look at Florida, shall we?
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Um, Florida soil.
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C, is the industry Ray Anderson worked in palm oil?
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Or D, did he work in the cut rose slash cut flower industry?
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Interesting.
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Well, I wouldn't guess what I know is the correct answer if I didn't, if I didn't have like a spark of, oh, I remember Evelyn talking about this in the Oh shoot.
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I thought he was a blank slate coming in.
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Dang it.
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I think, I think so anyway, but I don't know, I don't know much.
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I just remember you like giving me the a quick rundown of of it.
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And so I'm pretty sure it's a carpeting.
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Yes, you are right.
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He was a leader of industry in the carpeting world.
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Um, there's a lot about his backstory around like how he came to that, basically like driving around looking for like a calling in life, you know, like I need a job, I need to figure out my life, and basically driving through like a business district and being like, well, they all have floors.
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Um, and being inspired essentially to help them solve their floor problem.
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Um, a lot of my learning about Ray Anderson came from a um documentary about him that's not released yet officially.
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I got it as an educational tool through a workshop I was doing.
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Um, and so I didn't have access to all of that info.
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So I'm going to share some info that I learned from there and some info that I've gathered and researched since that you can get online now.
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Um, but forgive me if like some of the things that I remember from the documentary are a little hazy.
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So here's Ray Anderson.
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He um he reads a book um after being asked this question.
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He reads uh a question I'll tell you in a minute.
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He reads a book sort of based on that initial questioning um that he says hits him like a spear in the chest.
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And I wanted to ask you, Hayden, have you ever had an experience in life like that where boom, something, someone, some book or some media comes into your life and your life is different?
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Yeah.
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The most recent example is on my bike tour last summer.
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I remember having a pretty tough day, and I was just biking and it was getting it was getting dark.
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I didn't know where I was sleeping that night.
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And I like come, I just no, I I didn't know where I was sleeping, and then I I just like found a place to sleep, uh, you know, like five miles down the road or 10 miles down the road or something.
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And so I was filled with some some excitement around that or relief, I guess.
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Sure.
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And then I come over this this little hill, and I see the wide expanse of the St.
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Lawrence River and the sun setting over it, and it was just like bam, my heart could like feel the beauty of the world, and at the same time, like the pang of pain of we're doing so much collectively as a human species to hurt this beautiful, beautiful place, right?
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:48.960
And that really like that was just another confirmation of man, I really want to do as much as I can to protect this beautiful place.
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:50.160
Yes, right.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:54.079
Okay, so something similar very much happened to Ray Anderson.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:04.160
He was essentially in his 60s, he had he had he had um successfully, you know, lived out this illustrious career.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:14.480
Um, and people were starting to ask, I want to say this is the early 90s, 91, 92, people were starting to ask him, so what are what's your company doing for environment for the environment?
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:17.519
And he said, uh, we we actually didn't have an answer.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:18.400
It was embarrassing.
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:25.039
He said, I wasn't, that wasn't even attuned, that wasn't something I was attuned to, but my customers were attuned to it.
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:26.960
And I am a customer service guy.
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:32.240
So I I wasn't, so I became attuned to it because I care about what they care about.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:37.200
And so he came to this book called Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.119
And this book is what he said was like a spear in the chest.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:55.200
It's essentially, it's like they call it a manifesto, but I always feel like manifesto has this negative connotation of like some crazy lunatic, like ranting outside of the system, which maybe he was ranting outside the system, but it seems very coherent and cogent to me.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.920
If you'll indulge me, this is going to take about one minute.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:59.680
I have a one-minute passage to read.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:01.440
It is the opening lines of the book.
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.279
Do you do you think you can bear with me, Hayden?
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:04.640
I would love to hear it.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:05.440
Yeah, please.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.359
So this is what Paul Hawkins says in the very opening lines of The Ecology of Commerce.
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:22.079
I have come to believe that we in America and in the rest of the industrialized West do not know what business really is, or therefore what it can become.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:32.559
Perhaps this is a strange remark, given that free market capitalism is now largely unchallenged as the economic and social credo of just about every society on earth.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:34.480
But I believe it's correct.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:59.759
Despite our management schools, despite the thousands of books written about business, despite the legions of economists who tinker with the trim tabs of the$21 trillion world economy, despite and maybe because of the victory of free market capitalism over socialism worldwide, our understanding of business, what makes for healthy commerce, what the role of such commerce should be within society as a whole.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.079
Is stuck at a primitive level.
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:12.000
The ultimate purpose of business is not or should not be simply to make money, nor is it merely a system of making and selling things.
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:21.599
The promise of business is to increase the general well-being of humankind through service, a creative invention and ethical philosophy.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:30.240
Making money is, on its own terms, totally meaningless, an insufficient pursuit for the complex and decaying world we live in.
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:32.480
And scene.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:35.039
There you have it.
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:48.640
That is the opening lines of Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken, which Ray Anderson poured over, I think he read it, you know, cover to cover within the hours that he received the book.
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:56.319
And he experienced this, you know, psychic moment, spear in the chest, and realized that he had to do something different.
00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:03.119
Now I'm gonna um I'm gonna soft quote him here because this is something I remember he said in the documentary.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:13.359
He basically said, I realized that I had been put on the cover of magazines for things that now I felt I should have been put in jail for.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:14.319
Wow.
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:15.119
Wow.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:16.319
Wow, is right.
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:17.440
And so what did he do?
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:22.319
Did he just like curl up into retirement and you know, say, well, sorry, the ship has sailed?
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:24.160
No, he did not.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:28.400
He put together what he called an eco dream team.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:32.079
Now imagine here's a carpet manufacturing guy.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:33.920
He he made something out of nothing.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.000
He was very successful in his business.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.920
And what does he have to do with saving the world?
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:40.319
Right.
00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.839
Well, turns out everything or everything he can do.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:44.319
Right.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:50.480
It's like you were, it's like you're it's always saying, like, all we can do, well, the way I paraphrase that is all we can do is all we can do.
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:51.680
So let's do it all.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.480
So here he assembles this eco dream team.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:01.359
It do you think do you think it just consisted of like one do you think it just consisted of people in the say carpeting industry?
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:03.039
I hope not.
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:03.759
I hope not.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:04.799
Yes, of course not.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:11.440
He he assembled like authors, activists, um, I want to say philosophers, but maybe I'm just making that up.
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:27.279
Um, uh, entrepreneurs, um, just like uh like people who were uh had a vested interest and some sort of expertise in addressing this, like we're uh we're kind of heading off a cliff problem.
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:39.200
And from then on, it was like well, I want to say it was all systems go, but he he talks about the struggle of basically winning people over, of changing a corporate culture, of changing a company culture.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:44.799
And that there he knew he was like, people looked at me like I was crazy.
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.640
And but I knew I wasn't.
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:54.240
I knew my job now was to continue to share this message until people started to get it, or until I died trying.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:56.160
Again, this is a loose paraphrase.
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.640
And what he found is that people did start to get it.
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:07.119
In fact, one of the early um signs that he, oh my gosh, I am so sorry.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:09.680
Welcome to live recording.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.680
I thought that was on silent, but I think I left it on Hayden and Casey.
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:14.880
The dehash is done.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:15.920
Yeah, right.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:23.759
So he so he's he is trying to win people over in this early transition, this transformation of this company he's already built.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:26.480
And he feels like, is anyone even getting it?
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:27.279
Is anyone here?
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:31.039
Like, am I am I just am I the crazy guy in the room?
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.519
Although he probably never really did question his own integrity.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.799
He was really, really anchored down into that.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:48.240
And at one point, maybe a few months in, he has this meeting, this whole team meeting, probably with the eco dream team, or like, you know, his other his other staff knew that this dream team was being assembled.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:53.039
And, you know, it's like thing changes in the air, and people are kind of weirded out and like, what's going on?
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.039
And does this mean I'm gonna lose my job, or what does this mean the whole company's gonna be different?
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:07.759
And this woman ends up who's at this all-team meeting, she ends up writing a poem called Tomorrow's Child that Ray Anderson can recite by heart, or could before he um passed away.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.720
And we can share the link of him reading this poem or just the link to the poem.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:18.079
I all I was tempted to read it, but it's just it it's a little too long to read on air.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.200
Um it's so beautiful.
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:25.440
I mean, tomorrow's child, you can imagine what it's about.
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:44.880
Um, and that it's essentially addressed to this future generation that the author in the poem is is acknowledging, like, whoa, I never really thought about how my choices might affect your ability or inability to exist and definitely to exist happily and healthfully.
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:45.920
Gorgeous poem.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.000
We'll make sure that you guys have access to it.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:55.440
Um, so then, so then he then he realizes, you know, that um, okay, like the the dominoes are starting to fall.
00:26:55.519 --> 00:27:00.799
You know, Ray Anderson is recognizing like, okay, we we have some we have some momentum here.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:04.720
Ultimately, he transforms his business.
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:09.440
I mean, these are the details that I'm gonna skim over because I I we could go on and on.
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:10.799
He has all these initiatives.
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:16.799
He he um he changes the the attitude toward carpeting as a whole.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:23.200
I don't think he invented carpet squares, but he was, well, they were the first US manufacturer of them.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:40.960
And I know that in his design, in his team's like design rethinking, they realize that there's so much waste in this whole approach to like wall-to-wall carpeting of like, wait a second, we have to like build these big things and then cut, and then like there's so much that we cut out and just throw away.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:44.079
How could we design it in a way that really reduces that waste?
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:49.920
So carpet tiles or carpet squares was one, you know, brand one branch of solution to that problem.
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:59.119
There is a story about this company early on going to a corporate retreat that they couldn't cancel.
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:09.519
It was like they had it scheduled kind of before Ray's awakening, and then he kind of woke up to like what the impact of his choices and his company sources really were.
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:16.559
And then he had already booked like this whole hotel in Hawaii or something that his whole company was going to.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:31.279
And so instead of backing out, they turned it into this learning opportunity where they asked the hotel management to basically show them their inner workings and to look at how much energy was being used and to look at all the food waste.
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:40.720
And they ended up doing this thing that we used to do in summer camp, which was like bring out all the food that didn't get eaten and show it to the people who didn't eat it.
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:42.640
Like, hey guys, I remember them doing that too.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:43.039
Right.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:44.640
And then slot bucket.
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:45.279
Yes.
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:47.359
And okay, what do you remember from summer camp?
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:55.680
Do you remember that as they like the beginning of the week or the session, the slot bucket, was it the same as the end of the week slot bucket?
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.000
You know, I don't remember clearly.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:02.799
It was it was like a thing, a couple day thing that I did in school.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:04.960
It was like it wasn't a summer camp thing.
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:05.359
Okay.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:12.640
I remember unfortunately that the kids like made it a game to fill up the slot bucket, at least at first.
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:16.720
But we might have gotten to a point where it was actually clicking.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:17.680
You figured it out.
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:24.079
I just remember like, even as a kid doing like a face palm, like my palm on my forehead, like, come on, guys, what are we doing?
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:24.720
Right.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:27.039
You're like opposite winning.
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.119
They're like it's like the opposite.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:31.359
But anyway, it's a fun concept.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.480
I think it's I think it's a really great illustration for kids.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:35.119
Yes.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:36.720
And when it works, it works.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:48.400
And so, like, personally, in my summer game experience, which was residential, there was this like team camaraderie around like we're gonna be the cabin that doesn't have any food waste, but you know, by the end of the week.
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.720
And it changes behavior when your attention is brought to the consequences of your actions.
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:54.160
It's such a simple intervention.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:57.839
And the same thing happened at this corporate conference with Ray.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:58.960
That's very cool.
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:03.119
Yeah, like by the end of the week, uh, they weren't wasting as much food.
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:03.920
Beautiful.
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:10.960
So, okay, I um I'm not trying to, you know, take up all the time with just talking about Ray Anderson.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:17.440
I'm gonna ask you a few more questions, quiz style, um, and then we'll, and then we'll close it up.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:32.640
So by the time, you know, fast forward like 20 years that he's been implemented, that he's had this shift in awareness and he's really shifted his whole company toward sustainability-minded interventions.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:42.000
So I want to ask, what do you think were the impacts of the of a shifting, like what was one of the impacts of the shifting culture towards sustainability?
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.599
Was it that A, they made a bigger profit?
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:49.039
B, was it that they reduced costs?
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.200
C, was it that the product quality was as high as ever?
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:58.960
Or D, was it that their staff and team were motivated, like constantly motivated?
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:00.799
I think this is a trick question.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:02.720
And it's all of the above.
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:04.880
I can't even trick you with my trick questions.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:07.839
I don't know how to make this harder, but you are absolutely right.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:09.680
It is E, all of the above.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:21.680
And I especially love this because how many times have you heard people say just off-handedly, so like dismissively, like, oh, I can't do that in my business because it's too expensive?
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.160
Like, because my I don't want my product quality to drop.
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:26.720
Right.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:32.480
Because my staff like already knows the system and they, you know, that it's hot change is hard for them.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:40.480
So he kind of he not kind of, he fully contradicts he's a he his company, uh, interface tile, I think.
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:42.079
Did I even say the name of his company?
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:48.880
Uh, is a is a living example of how that all of those yah butts don't have to be true.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:56.960
Okay, so again, we're just gonna swing the pendulum of conversation back.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:08.240
Um, the hero of history really does broaden the scope and kind of scales out, like it feels to me like we're zooming out and we're looking at the whole world and through time and space, really.
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:25.200
And now we're gonna zoom back in, take some of that inspiration, some of that momentum we maybe picked up in the heroes of history, and move it into our own activating segment that we call the world's most host the world's most wholesome truth or dare.
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:30.160
I I don't know whether I don't know how many truth or dare sessions get in the world.
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.960
So I don't really know what competition I'm up against.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:37.519
There's like an article online and we have to break the top 10 or something first.
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:38.319
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.200
Or like what is the measure of more wholesome or less wholesome?
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:46.559
What I will say is we don't swear, and none of this is uh, you know, is it's all G.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:50.000
We're a G-rated uh podcast over here.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:52.880
Uh we're G-rated operation, maybe PG.
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:59.839
Hayden, um, I'm gonna just ask you if you true, truth or dare.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:02.799
Truth.
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:04.720
Okay.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:10.720
I think I've asked you this on an episode that we never released.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.960
So I'm sorry, I'm just gonna hit you with it again.
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:30.319
Do you find, Hayden, that living more sustainably challenges relationships and or especially intimate relationships?
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:43.440
Do you find it's like harder to date if you are sustainably minded, or do you find that like friend there are certain friendships that are strained because of your commitment to sustainability?
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.680
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:53.039
I I do kind of think it does affect dating.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:34:05.920
Um and it's more like a personal thing because I haven't I haven't been in a romantic relationship in like a year or more now.
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:40.320
Um but I've been on dates, and I think it is something that I'm like paying attention to when we're getting to know each other, and if there maybe, you know, some of their passions or interests lie in things that I don't necessarily like I don't see myself really ever engaging in, or or maybe even in some cases it's like, wow, like I just I don't even want to associate with with that kind of stuff anymore.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:47.599
Um I mean that and I recognize that that is harsh and almost unfair in a way.
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.639
Like we all have our our lines and what's important to us and everything.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:35:04.639
Um and at the same time, like I don't I don't want to just immediately just kind of like write someone off because of one thing or another.
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:22.320
Um but I yeah, if if I'm honest, it does it it changes the way that I go into dating because I think I'm I'm looking for specific values that might not be the most uh the most common.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:23.199
Right.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:34.639
Um as far as friendships, I think it depends, but I haven't found in in any of my friendships uh it actually causing any real problems.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:36.400
Yeah, well that's good.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:36:08.880
I think at the most like I can be uncomfortable sometimes with like saying saying no to certain activities or like going somewhere or something like that because I I don't wanna don't wanna like mess things up, I guess, or or just like make people uncomfortable or um feel bad about you know they're they're like nice enough to invite me on a trip or something, for example, and I'm like, well, that doesn't really feel right to me, so I don't really want to do that.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.840
So I have to kind of navigate that in a in a way that feels good to me also.
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:14.400
Right.
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:16.559
And that doesn't like hurt their feelings.
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:17.440
Exactly.
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:18.239
Yeah.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:23.599
But fortunately, there have been no no riffs created because of it.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:25.440
Good.
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:26.960
That's great, that's good.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:33.119
It's yeah, I guess well, if you don't mind me just sharing a little No, please.
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:45.519
Because it of course makes me think about my relationships, that it's you know, friends tend to orbit close and far away and close and far away, at least in my experience on life so far.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:46.639
For me too, for sure.
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:46.880
Yeah.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:47.280
Yeah.
00:36:47.440 --> 00:37:06.960
So that I find that as my commitment to sustainability kind of grows deeper and more profound, that the friends who remain in closer orbit are the ones who are more open to even if not changing, at least not being offended.
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:16.079
Yeah, by at least not taking some weird offense by a thing that I've been very careful to not tell, not be didactic about or to not be instructive about.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.440
Like you have to do it too.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:22.559
So I guess it's changed relationships, but like for the better.
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:41.440
And even like my current boyfriend is like his mindset was not at all pointed towards sustainability when we met, and that wasn't a deal breaker because I liked who he was, you know, in all the other ways.
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:48.159
And that when he saw and knew and learned, and when I was pretty said pretty outright, like, hey, this is a really important thing to me.
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:50.880
And you don't have to do everything the same way I do it.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:59.360
But if you made any kind of effort, it would go a long way in showing me what kind of partnership future we can have.
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:01.840
And then boom, it was like he was he was all about it.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.519
He's like, Oh, this is a way I can basically show her this is her love language.
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:06.559
Yeah, no problem.
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.320
And then he's reporting back to me things like, Whoa, I used to take out my garbage every week.
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:12.079
Now it's been like two months.
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:12.719
Wow.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:27.840
You know, like he it's like trickling in in a way that I feel is like, oh, that's actually more lasting and um sustainable than if I came in like finger wagging, like you have to do this, this, and that.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:29.280
Oh, absolutely.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:31.599
Well, and that's really inspirational.
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:33.039
I'm glad you shared that.
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:53.360
And I like I was saying, I I do want to I want to go into dating with less uh, I guess less of like a a lower bar around sustainability because I know it isn't, it's just that's just our culture that we live in, is it's uh it's just kind of crazy.
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:54.880
Our culture, you know.
00:38:55.039 --> 00:39:03.119
So like the the vision that I have for my life is pretty pretty different from most people's.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:14.880
And I do want to do my best to to recognize that and like be okay with with people not being at that same vision.
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:15.360
Right.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:27.760
And Hayden, if you don't mind me quoting you from a while ago, this is one of like my favorite things that you've ever said, is when I I was getting kind of high and mighty about like how great I was or how far behind other people were, whatever.
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.320
You were like, Evelyn, that was us like two weeks ago.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.119
Right.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:31.920
Yeah.
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:32.639
Yeah.
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:33.280
Okay.
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:34.400
Um beautiful.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:35.360
Yes, beautiful.
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:35.760
Thank you.
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:36.480
Okay, right.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:37.360
Oh, don't let me.
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.280
I almost skipped by without true true letting you truth or dare, me.
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:42.559
Yeah, don't get out of this.
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:47.519
I accidentally, quote unquote, almost forgot.
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:51.519
Well, you did you you kind of answered your own truth question.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.559
Yeah, fair enough.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:56.079
Uh but Evelyn, truth or dare.
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.239
Yeah, maybe we should go with a dare.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.440
Let's get some activity out of this.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:02.400
All right.
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.280
Which one do I want to do?
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:13.920
I dare you to spend a morning without screens, music, or any other external input.
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:15.199
Oh, lovely.
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:25.039
And if it makes sense, try spending this time in in silence too, or even go as far as like no reading if if you want to.
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:25.679
Wow.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:31.599
Um, and and then if you feel like it, continue it on further into the day past the morning.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:32.239
Okay.
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:34.559
I'm already excited.
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:46.800
It's like permission to do a thing that would be hard to have the discipline I feel to do if all the other nagging bits of productivity were getting in.
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:50.960
But if this is on my to-do list, essentially my action items, yeah.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:52.400
Yeah, it's part of a dare.
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:53.280
I have to.
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:55.280
Wow, that's great.
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.079
I think I'm gonna get that done this weekend.
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:02.880
Not get it done like it's a chore, but like I think I'm gonna make it happen this weekend.
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:03.199
Nice.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:03.920
Yeah.
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:04.880
Enjoy.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:05.519
Thanks.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:05.920
I will.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:06.800
I'll let you know.
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:20.079
And for our listeners, we won't necessarily talk about the dare part of it on air, but you can always check out our website and see what the updates are on each episode of how they went, if we actually if they went.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:21.840
I think most of them have so far.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.400
We've like made it happen one way or another.
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:25.440
Yep, yep.
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:26.639
Okay, glorious.
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:28.719
Well, this is our final little bit here.
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:37.920
We're just gonna transition out from, you know, we went from big picture to little picture to personal to, you know, like we went from successes to challenges.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:48.719
Now we're just gonna end with sending off you guys out there in the world in back into the world with um an activating challenge with like, you know, your own action item.
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:53.360
Um, Hayden, do you want to share what we recommend this time?
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:54.639
Yeah.
00:41:54.800 --> 00:42:02.159
Um, we would love for you guys to check out that book by Paul Hawken that was that spear in the chest.
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.079
Well, that's how it felt to Ray Anderson.
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:04.480
Yes.
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:06.239
It's called The Ecology of Commerce.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.360
Yeah, that's what I meant.
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:08.239
Oh, yes, yes.
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:08.960
Okay, very good.
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:10.880
Yeah, the book is not spear in the chest.
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:16.639
I'm sure there's a great book out there called Spear in the Chest, maybe like a fictional war book or something.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:17.199
Yeah.
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:23.599
Um, but yes, the The Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:24.960
Free PDF.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:27.039
We'll we'll we'll make sure to link it.
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:27.920
It's yeah.
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:34.880
And Paul Hawken is also the author or one of the authors, I get like the main author of Project Drawdown, I believe.
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:49.599
Which is like a pretty, pretty comprehensive, impressive book with a list of a ton of um large scale actions uh to basically kind of save ourselves.
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:50.320
Sure.
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:50.719
Yeah.
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:55.920
Well, some of those actions Ray Anderson took up, and some of them hopefully we can take up.
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:56.480
Yeah.
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:57.760
All right, Hayden.
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.880
Well, thanks as always for the time, and I'll see you next time.
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:01.679
Thank you.
00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:02.960
Thanks, everyone.
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:07.360
You're tuned into Bulk Beans and Bicycles, a beautiful, bountiful podcast brought to you by Circle Game Inc.
00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:10.960
about how sweet life is on the other side of living more sustainably.
00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:15.679
Please give it up for your co-hosts, Hayden Kessinger and Evelyn Wallace.
00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:18.480
Hi, everybody.
00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:19.199
Welcome back.
00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:21.440
Hayden, I'm so excited to be here with you.
00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.600
We have a really great show planned.
00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:34.640
Um, we're just gonna start today with a little bit of uh getting to know each other again, introducing us to you guys, the listeners, and then moving into um our three segments of the show.
00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.399
You ready for that, Hayden?
00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:37.280
Yeah.
00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:38.399
Cool.
00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:43.359
All right, so yeah, why don't you tell folks just a little bit about what brings you to this work?
00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:50.640
And then I would also love to hear um about these uh upcoming travel plans I I'm hearing about.
00:00:51.119 --> 00:01:00.960
Yeah, well, uh we might we might not be only friends through the internet for much longer if we if we manage to see each other uh coming up soon.
00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:01.920
Yes.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:18.400
Uh so yeah, I I'm in Maryland and I got into sustainability in college um most like seriously, but kind of grew up just outside my whole life, which I think really set the stage for having a passion for it.
00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:18.799
Sure.
00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:32.079
Um, just loving spending time with with my sister, especially outside, uh chasing after frogs and eating dirt and which is literally uh a memory.
00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:38.400
Well, no, I don't know if I actually mem remember it, but uh my sister definitely likes to tell people that oh, very good.
00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:39.920
She must be your older sister.
00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:41.120
Yes, yes.
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:48.239
Um, and I think she played an important role in me finding uh dirt especially tasty as a child.
00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:50.799
Classic older sister move.
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:51.200
Well done.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:51.760
You know what?
00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:54.079
Building immunity since the beginning of time.
00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:54.560
Exactly.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:56.400
Brought to you by dirt.
00:01:56.879 --> 00:02:10.479
Yeah, so I mean, that's really like at the core of my motivation to to be in this in this space and and have a passion for living sustainably is just a deep love of the outdoors.
00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:15.120
And I was really fortunate to to grow up in an environment conducive to that.
00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:19.599
Um, but obviously it's not required either to to get there.
00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:20.560
Yeah, right.
00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:22.000
No, no one right way.
00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:22.479
No.
00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.800
So okay, so you mentioned something about not just being friends online anymore.
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:33.919
Somehow it sounds so like there sounds like something nefarious about like calling online friends, but it doesn't feel that way at all.
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.599
I feel like colleagues who just have a lot of virtual meetings, you know.
00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:38.400
Yeah.
00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:39.120
Yeah.
00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:47.599
I'm going to be, so I'm in Maryland, you're in Oregon, and I'm going to be traveling across the country in just a couple days.
00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:58.400
So I'm here getting my apartment ready, cleaning up a little bit and packing um for a bus ride across the country, yeah.
00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.680
Which uh we'll talk about uh later pretty soon.
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:10.960
But um, I'm gonna be going to a wedding in Vancouver, Washington, which is right next to Portland, Oregon, and you're not far from there.
00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:16.960
And so it seems that the stars may be aligning and we'll at least be able to say hi.
00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:18.400
Yes, exactly.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:20.240
Definitely closer than Maryland.
00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:29.599
So we're I feel like we're we are problem-solving folk who are gonna solve the problem of being so close that we should be able to hang out.
00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:31.840
Yeah, I feel like we will hang out.
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Yeah.
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:33.360
Um, cool.
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:41.120
Well, listen, on that note, in this segment, this segment we call ya but, um, because we all have our own inner yah buts.
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Hayden, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Um not wrong at all.
00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:45.439
Not wrong, right?
00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:47.520
I think we're we we all feel them.
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We are, I mean, even Hayden and I are at different places in our own journey, so we're gonna have different yah buts.
00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.439
Although, yeah, hope I'm not giving too much away.
00:03:55.599 --> 00:04:02.319
Hayden, do you want to share a Yah but that you have heard or felt in your sustainability experience?
00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:15.840
So the the one that I alluded to uh earlier is that yeah, I don't want to support the use of fossil fuels as much as I can, but I also really would love to travel the world.
00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:26.560
And uh, you know, like some of the some of the justifications uh I come up with for, you know, like I want to travel the world.
00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:28.959
It's you know, so many other people have already.
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Why don't I get to?
00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:43.199
Or like even if I flew around the world 10 times or probably even more than that, it wouldn't add up to the the pollution from a single billionaire or millionaire or something like that.
00:04:43.519 --> 00:05:00.639
Um and you know, I rarely drive or use private vehicles on a regular basis, and I do other things good, so surely I can, you know, I get to go fly somewhere and yeah, experience a different part of the world, yeah.
00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:07.600
And I think all those do have, I mean, there's truth to all of them, and I think there is some merit to them.
00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:20.079
And to be completely honest, and I talk to you, Evelyn, about this quite a bit, is that I may fly one day to Europe or Asia or Australia or somewhere else for a grand adventure.
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:30.399
But right now, to me, that just doesn't feel doesn't feel right to just go somewhere just for the sake of enjoying it.
00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:54.959
And through experience, I know now that there's a lot of ways to travel that don't include flying and may still include fossil fuels, which I still have conflict about, but it's at least an effort to do something differently and do it a little bit better than the alternative.
00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.519
And I know that those ways of traveling are extremely rewarding.
00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:00.560
Um, yeah.
00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:06.720
Well, you talked about you have an upcoming bus trip from Maryland to Washington State.
00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:14.639
So exactly that I guess what would you say to someone whose next yeah but would be like, yeah, but I don't have that kind of time.
00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.480
Yeah, very and in a way, fair.
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.120
And again, you know, there's merit to that.
00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:25.120
And uh I I sympathize with that, and I feel that too.
00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:31.759
It's like I'm spending three days to get from Baltimore to Portland instead of a few hours in a plane.
00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.040
And there's part of me that's like, I mean, that kind of sucks.
00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:39.360
But I'm also like so excited for this bus ride, right?
00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:41.600
Because even though I know the adventure, right?
00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:42.319
Exactly.
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:49.279
It is, it really is, and it's taken some time to end up in that mindset.
00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:58.240
Um, but like I said, through experiences that I've already had, that is the mindset that I find myself in, which is being really excited.
00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:12.079
And I know that there will be frustrating and uncomfortable parts of the bus ride, and it's a long time on a bus, and you know, there's stops and changes and stuff, so it's not like sitting on a bus for three days straight.
00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:19.120
But um I know that there will be difficult parts and parts where I'm like, ugh, this kind of sucks.
00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.319
Yeah, but it'll be unique and it'll be beautiful.
00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:25.040
I'll see new parts of the country.
00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:29.759
Like I'm I'm gonna be the bus is going to be traveling in parts of the country I've never been to.
00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:30.480
Oh, cool.
00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:50.800
And yeah, I'll be able to chill out and look out the window and drink it in and take naps and take naps be worried about driving off the road and catch up on some reading that I want to do and some writing, and maybe even meet some random people on the bus and have cool conversations with them.
00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:55.439
Um so there's there's just lots of cool, cool things about it, I think.
00:07:55.519 --> 00:08:00.800
And I also think it's just cool to me to do things differently.
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:13.680
Um I think it's it's just kind of fun to be like, yeah, I'm taking a bus across the country because now it is so common to to get there much faster.
00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:14.240
Yeah.
00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:23.279
Um and to to bring it back to your question of like, yeah, but three days just to get to the other side of the country.
00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:40.480
And I know that that's that is a lot of time, like we don't, we don't have infinite time, but I'm building my life with the understanding that I do want to travel more slowly.
00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:59.360
So if I want if I want this, if I want travel and adventure to be part of my life, then I know that it will be different than how it is for a lot of people, which might be a half a day of travel and then spending some time in one place and then a half a day travel back or something like that.
00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.799
Um you know, go ahead, Evelyn.
00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:04.960
I've been I've been rambling.
00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:06.960
I just have so many thoughts.
00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:11.440
I it makes me think like what you're talking about three days versus a few hours.
00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:13.360
Um, I think it was Louis C.K.
00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.320
who I'm sorry, he got canceled, or we're not supposed to quote him anymore.
00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.879
But he he had insightful things to say.
00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:19.279
Sure.
00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:20.559
And so I'm gonna quote him.
00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:28.159
Sorry if that upsets people, but he was like, he was like, You we we that trip used to take months.
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:30.559
Yeah, like it wasn't even the same, people would die.
00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.519
Like it wasn't even the same group as what started.
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.480
People had babies, it was like a whole season of life.
00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:54.720
Like how soon we become acclimated, forgive the, I don't know, maybe aviary pun, but like to this sense of the expectation being that we can only do it in a few, or that we that it's we're supposed to travel 3,000 miles in a few hours, as opposed to like even 3,000 miles.
00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.320
I assume that's uh more or less the rough cut of how far you're going.
00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:12.000
It like even in three days seems like it only feels like a lot of time if you compare it to this weirdly new technology that we now seem like we can't live without.
00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:12.799
Yeah.
00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:34.639
And like, don't get me wrong, it's a it's quite a feat of our human abilities that we like created planes and I mean have been using automobiles and such to get places, like it's pretty crazy, but that doesn't mean it's you know, that doesn't mean it's what we should continue doing all the time necessarily.
00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:41.120
Um and again, I just think there's so much value to be had in a slower version of travel.
00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:53.519
And if I if I did have even more time and I felt comfortable taking even more time away from the old job, uh I would I would do it on a bike if I could.
00:10:53.600 --> 00:11:07.120
Like I would have, I would, I would be in the middle of the country right now, or or almost in my destination by now, uh, on my bike, and would have left, you know, a month ago if I if I really felt up to it.
00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:15.440
Um but you know, this is the next best thing, and it's something I haven't done before, and that's really exciting to me.
00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:26.320
Um and yeah, and and kind of like I said in in one of our previous episodes, you know, I only have control over my own actions, my own outputs.
00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:27.120
Bingo.
00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:32.399
The only I can only put my money where I want it to go.
00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:37.039
Um, I don't have control over anybody else's finances or anything.
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.440
So it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing or the billionaires are doing.
00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:44.799
It's you know, I I can only do what I can do.
00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:48.480
And uh to me, this feels this feels right.
00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:49.759
Yeah, great.
00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:56.240
Man, I also want to acknowledge that you mentioned that there is probably gonna be some discomfort.
00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:00.240
There's probably gonna be some moments of like groaning and moaning.
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:06.480
And my first thought was, yeah, tell show me one airport where there's not discomfort and there's not moaning and groaning.
00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:13.279
So it's not like one system of travel like exempts you from that, you know, experience.
00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:28.240
Um, and yeah, just I really appreciate that sense of slowed downness of like, okay, what so since when like why do we think that this activity has to happen in this amount of time?
00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.159
Like, what is the value for this activity happening over a longer amount of time?
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.039
And it's not just less value.
00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:36.320
Exactly.
00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:40.960
Yeah, yes, you articulated something I was kind of struggling to get across.
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:41.600
Yeah.
00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.600
There it's different value, I think is like the key word.
00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:50.960
It it's different and it's valuable in in new ways.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:51.679
Sure.
00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:52.480
I love that.
00:12:52.639 --> 00:13:02.639
Yeah, and I guess last thing I do want to not forget to say something back to is that sense of like, well, I haven't traveled the world, but I don't I deserve it.
00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:04.080
Like, didn't I earn it?
00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:05.519
Like other people have.
00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:10.080
And as someone who has, I mean, you and I have talked about my experience in India.
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:13.039
I mean, that's not that's just the beginning.
00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:13.519
Yeah.
00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:17.120
I feel I don't know if it's guilty.
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:19.919
I don't know if guilty is the right word because what's the point of that?
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:32.000
But there is a sense of like, I I there's there's an experience that you are living that I cannot identify with because I have seen the other side of that curtain.
00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:44.720
And I can also tell you that since I have stopped flying, since I have committed to never stepping voluntarily on a plane again, um I just it just wouldn't feel good.
00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:48.320
And again, this is not as our I'm not telling our listeners what to do.
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:53.679
I'm just explaining where I've come in my own sort of one step at a time.
00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:07.840
I guess I've discovered that all of the things I was looking for by going far away, I can get and not just things like items, things like experiences and feelings.
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:20.639
I can get them here closer without having to escape, without having to treat my home territory as some place that's not good enough to stay through my relaxation days.
00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.159
So that's also something I wanted to leave there.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:25.840
Yeah, beautiful.
00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:26.960
Thanks.
00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:27.919
Thanks, Evelyn.
00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:32.000
So listen, this segment, the Yeah but segment, is a lot about us.
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:37.759
And we want to make sure that the whole podcast isn't just me talking about me and you talking about you, Aiden.
00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:51.679
So we are going to move into a section we call heroes of history, where we uh feature someone living or no longer with us, or a group of someones who have done something we find heroic.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:57.360
Now, uh honestly, it doesn't have to be like it's not a cape, you know, people aren't wearing capes here.
00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:01.519
They're usually just doing something that the world said, we don't do it that way.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.799
And they were like, um, maybe we could.
00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.240
Or maybe, maybe we could rethink this.
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:13.919
So on that note, I am going to introduce the hero of history today, Ray Anderson.
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:20.080
Now, before he is no longer with us, I did the I did enough of that homework this time.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.399
He he was a um a leader of business.
00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:25.759
He was a leader of industry.
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:31.360
And before I tell you what that industry is, I'm going to play a little guessing game with you.
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:32.240
Okay.
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:32.879
Okay.
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.879
So there are some industries that are notoriously pollutive and depletive.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:43.440
It's like you pull back the curtain a little and you know, Google it basically, and uh you'll see.
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:50.159
Um, so I want you to guess which notoriously pollutive or depletive industry did Ray Anderson work in.
00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:50.960
Are you ready?
00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:53.759
And he's he founded his company in 1973.
00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.639
And even though he's no longer with us, his company's still in business, if that gives you any hint.
00:15:59.039 --> 00:15:59.519
Gotcha.
00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:04.399
Okay, so A, is the industry Ray Anderson worked in carpeting?
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:11.440
B is the notoriously pollutive or depletive industry orange juice?
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:12.080
Oh.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:14.799
C, is it, yeah.
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.200
So let's let's look at Florida, shall we?
00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:18.879
Um, Florida soil.
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:23.120
C, is the industry Ray Anderson worked in palm oil?
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:28.879
Or D, did he work in the cut rose slash cut flower industry?
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:30.879
Interesting.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:44.159
Well, I wouldn't guess what I know is the correct answer if I didn't, if I didn't have like a spark of, oh, I remember Evelyn talking about this in the Oh shoot.
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:46.080
I thought he was a blank slate coming in.
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:46.480
Dang it.
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.159
I think, I think so anyway, but I don't know, I don't know much.
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:54.720
I just remember you like giving me the a quick rundown of of it.
00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.200
And so I'm pretty sure it's a carpeting.
00:16:57.679 --> 00:16:58.879
Yes, you are right.
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.799
He was a leader of industry in the carpeting world.
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:20.319
Um, there's a lot about his backstory around like how he came to that, basically like driving around looking for like a calling in life, you know, like I need a job, I need to figure out my life, and basically driving through like a business district and being like, well, they all have floors.
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:26.480
Um, and being inspired essentially to help them solve their floor problem.
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:35.440
Um, a lot of my learning about Ray Anderson came from a um documentary about him that's not released yet officially.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.720
I got it as an educational tool through a workshop I was doing.
00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.920
Um, and so I didn't have access to all of that info.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:49.839
So I'm going to share some info that I learned from there and some info that I've gathered and researched since that you can get online now.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:55.440
Um, but forgive me if like some of the things that I remember from the documentary are a little hazy.
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.480
So here's Ray Anderson.
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:03.599
He um he reads a book um after being asked this question.
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:06.880
He reads uh a question I'll tell you in a minute.
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:14.640
He reads a book sort of based on that initial questioning um that he says hits him like a spear in the chest.
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:27.440
And I wanted to ask you, Hayden, have you ever had an experience in life like that where boom, something, someone, some book or some media comes into your life and your life is different?
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:29.680
Yeah.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:34.799
The most recent example is on my bike tour last summer.
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:43.039
I remember having a pretty tough day, and I was just biking and it was getting it was getting dark.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:46.000
I didn't know where I was sleeping that night.
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:58.480
And I like come, I just no, I I didn't know where I was sleeping, and then I I just like found a place to sleep, uh, you know, like five miles down the road or 10 miles down the road or something.
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:05.279
And so I was filled with some some excitement around that or relief, I guess.
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:05.680
Sure.
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:13.440
And then I come over this this little hill, and I see the wide expanse of the St.
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:37.200
Lawrence River and the sun setting over it, and it was just like bam, my heart could like feel the beauty of the world, and at the same time, like the pang of pain of we're doing so much collectively as a human species to hurt this beautiful, beautiful place, right?
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:48.960
And that really like that was just another confirmation of man, I really want to do as much as I can to protect this beautiful place.
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:50.160
Yes, right.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:54.079
Okay, so something similar very much happened to Ray Anderson.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:04.160
He was essentially in his 60s, he had he had he had um successfully, you know, lived out this illustrious career.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:14.480
Um, and people were starting to ask, I want to say this is the early 90s, 91, 92, people were starting to ask him, so what are what's your company doing for environment for the environment?
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:17.519
And he said, uh, we we actually didn't have an answer.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:18.400
It was embarrassing.
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:25.039
He said, I wasn't, that wasn't even attuned, that wasn't something I was attuned to, but my customers were attuned to it.
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:26.960
And I am a customer service guy.
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:32.240
So I I wasn't, so I became attuned to it because I care about what they care about.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:37.200
And so he came to this book called Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.119
And this book is what he said was like a spear in the chest.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:55.200
It's essentially, it's like they call it a manifesto, but I always feel like manifesto has this negative connotation of like some crazy lunatic, like ranting outside of the system, which maybe he was ranting outside the system, but it seems very coherent and cogent to me.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.920
If you'll indulge me, this is going to take about one minute.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:59.680
I have a one-minute passage to read.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:01.440
It is the opening lines of the book.
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.279
Do you do you think you can bear with me, Hayden?
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:04.640
I would love to hear it.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:05.440
Yeah, please.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.359
So this is what Paul Hawkins says in the very opening lines of The Ecology of Commerce.
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:22.079
I have come to believe that we in America and in the rest of the industrialized West do not know what business really is, or therefore what it can become.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:32.559
Perhaps this is a strange remark, given that free market capitalism is now largely unchallenged as the economic and social credo of just about every society on earth.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:34.480
But I believe it's correct.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:59.759
Despite our management schools, despite the thousands of books written about business, despite the legions of economists who tinker with the trim tabs of the$21 trillion world economy, despite and maybe because of the victory of free market capitalism over socialism worldwide, our understanding of business, what makes for healthy commerce, what the role of such commerce should be within society as a whole.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.079
Is stuck at a primitive level.
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:12.000
The ultimate purpose of business is not or should not be simply to make money, nor is it merely a system of making and selling things.
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:21.599
The promise of business is to increase the general well-being of humankind through service, a creative invention and ethical philosophy.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:30.240
Making money is, on its own terms, totally meaningless, an insufficient pursuit for the complex and decaying world we live in.
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:32.480
And scene.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:35.039
There you have it.
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:48.640
That is the opening lines of Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken, which Ray Anderson poured over, I think he read it, you know, cover to cover within the hours that he received the book.
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:56.319
And he experienced this, you know, psychic moment, spear in the chest, and realized that he had to do something different.
00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:03.119
Now I'm gonna um I'm gonna soft quote him here because this is something I remember he said in the documentary.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:13.359
He basically said, I realized that I had been put on the cover of magazines for things that now I felt I should have been put in jail for.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:14.319
Wow.
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:15.119
Wow.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:16.319
Wow, is right.
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:17.440
And so what did he do?
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:22.319
Did he just like curl up into retirement and you know, say, well, sorry, the ship has sailed?
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:24.160
No, he did not.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:28.400
He put together what he called an eco dream team.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:32.079
Now imagine here's a carpet manufacturing guy.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:33.920
He he made something out of nothing.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.000
He was very successful in his business.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.920
And what does he have to do with saving the world?
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:40.319
Right.
00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.839
Well, turns out everything or everything he can do.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:44.319
Right.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:50.480
It's like you were, it's like you're it's always saying, like, all we can do, well, the way I paraphrase that is all we can do is all we can do.
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:51.680
So let's do it all.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.480
So here he assembles this eco dream team.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:01.359
It do you think do you think it just consisted of like one do you think it just consisted of people in the say carpeting industry?
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:03.039
I hope not.
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:03.759
I hope not.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:04.799
Yes, of course not.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:11.440
He he assembled like authors, activists, um, I want to say philosophers, but maybe I'm just making that up.
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:27.279
Um, uh, entrepreneurs, um, just like uh like people who were uh had a vested interest and some sort of expertise in addressing this, like we're uh we're kind of heading off a cliff problem.
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:39.200
And from then on, it was like well, I want to say it was all systems go, but he he talks about the struggle of basically winning people over, of changing a corporate culture, of changing a company culture.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:44.799
And that there he knew he was like, people looked at me like I was crazy.
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.640
And but I knew I wasn't.
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:54.240
I knew my job now was to continue to share this message until people started to get it, or until I died trying.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:56.160
Again, this is a loose paraphrase.
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.640
And what he found is that people did start to get it.
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:07.119
In fact, one of the early um signs that he, oh my gosh, I am so sorry.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:09.680
Welcome to live recording.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.680
I thought that was on silent, but I think I left it on Hayden and Casey.
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:14.880
The dehash is done.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:15.920
Yeah, right.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:23.759
So he so he's he is trying to win people over in this early transition, this transformation of this company he's already built.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:26.480
And he feels like, is anyone even getting it?
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:27.279
Is anyone here?
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:31.039
Like, am I am I just am I the crazy guy in the room?
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.519
Although he probably never really did question his own integrity.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.799
He was really, really anchored down into that.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:48.240
And at one point, maybe a few months in, he has this meeting, this whole team meeting, probably with the eco dream team, or like, you know, his other his other staff knew that this dream team was being assembled.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:53.039
And, you know, it's like thing changes in the air, and people are kind of weirded out and like, what's going on?
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.039
And does this mean I'm gonna lose my job, or what does this mean the whole company's gonna be different?
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:07.759
And this woman ends up who's at this all-team meeting, she ends up writing a poem called Tomorrow's Child that Ray Anderson can recite by heart, or could before he um passed away.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.720
And we can share the link of him reading this poem or just the link to the poem.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:18.079
I all I was tempted to read it, but it's just it it's a little too long to read on air.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.200
Um it's so beautiful.
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:25.440
I mean, tomorrow's child, you can imagine what it's about.
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:44.880
Um, and that it's essentially addressed to this future generation that the author in the poem is is acknowledging, like, whoa, I never really thought about how my choices might affect your ability or inability to exist and definitely to exist happily and healthfully.
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:45.920
Gorgeous poem.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.000
We'll make sure that you guys have access to it.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:55.440
Um, so then, so then he then he realizes, you know, that um, okay, like the the dominoes are starting to fall.
00:26:55.519 --> 00:27:00.799
You know, Ray Anderson is recognizing like, okay, we we have some we have some momentum here.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:04.720
Ultimately, he transforms his business.
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:09.440
I mean, these are the details that I'm gonna skim over because I I we could go on and on.
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:10.799
He has all these initiatives.
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:16.799
He he um he changes the the attitude toward carpeting as a whole.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:23.200
I don't think he invented carpet squares, but he was, well, they were the first US manufacturer of them.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:40.960
And I know that in his design, in his team's like design rethinking, they realize that there's so much waste in this whole approach to like wall-to-wall carpeting of like, wait a second, we have to like build these big things and then cut, and then like there's so much that we cut out and just throw away.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:44.079
How could we design it in a way that really reduces that waste?
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:49.920
So carpet tiles or carpet squares was one, you know, brand one branch of solution to that problem.
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:59.119
There is a story about this company early on going to a corporate retreat that they couldn't cancel.
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:09.519
It was like they had it scheduled kind of before Ray's awakening, and then he kind of woke up to like what the impact of his choices and his company sources really were.
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:16.559
And then he had already booked like this whole hotel in Hawaii or something that his whole company was going to.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:31.279
And so instead of backing out, they turned it into this learning opportunity where they asked the hotel management to basically show them their inner workings and to look at how much energy was being used and to look at all the food waste.
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:40.720
And they ended up doing this thing that we used to do in summer camp, which was like bring out all the food that didn't get eaten and show it to the people who didn't eat it.
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:42.640
Like, hey guys, I remember them doing that too.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:43.039
Right.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:44.640
And then slot bucket.
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:45.279
Yes.
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:47.359
And okay, what do you remember from summer camp?
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:55.680
Do you remember that as they like the beginning of the week or the session, the slot bucket, was it the same as the end of the week slot bucket?
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.000
You know, I don't remember clearly.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:02.799
It was it was like a thing, a couple day thing that I did in school.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:04.960
It was like it wasn't a summer camp thing.
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:05.359
Okay.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:12.640
I remember unfortunately that the kids like made it a game to fill up the slot bucket, at least at first.
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:16.720
But we might have gotten to a point where it was actually clicking.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:17.680
You figured it out.
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:24.079
I just remember like, even as a kid doing like a face palm, like my palm on my forehead, like, come on, guys, what are we doing?
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:24.720
Right.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:27.039
You're like opposite winning.
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.119
They're like it's like the opposite.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:31.359
But anyway, it's a fun concept.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.480
I think it's I think it's a really great illustration for kids.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:35.119
Yes.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:36.720
And when it works, it works.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:48.400
And so, like, personally, in my summer game experience, which was residential, there was this like team camaraderie around like we're gonna be the cabin that doesn't have any food waste, but you know, by the end of the week.
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.720
And it changes behavior when your attention is brought to the consequences of your actions.
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:54.160
It's such a simple intervention.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:57.839
And the same thing happened at this corporate conference with Ray.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:58.960
That's very cool.
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:03.119
Yeah, like by the end of the week, uh, they weren't wasting as much food.
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:03.920
Beautiful.
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:10.960
So, okay, I um I'm not trying to, you know, take up all the time with just talking about Ray Anderson.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:17.440
I'm gonna ask you a few more questions, quiz style, um, and then we'll, and then we'll close it up.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:32.640
So by the time, you know, fast forward like 20 years that he's been implemented, that he's had this shift in awareness and he's really shifted his whole company toward sustainability-minded interventions.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:42.000
So I want to ask, what do you think were the impacts of the of a shifting, like what was one of the impacts of the shifting culture towards sustainability?
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.599
Was it that A, they made a bigger profit?
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:49.039
B, was it that they reduced costs?
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.200
C, was it that the product quality was as high as ever?
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:58.960
Or D, was it that their staff and team were motivated, like constantly motivated?
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:00.799
I think this is a trick question.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:02.720
And it's all of the above.
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:04.880
I can't even trick you with my trick questions.
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:07.839
I don't know how to make this harder, but you are absolutely right.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:09.680
It is E, all of the above.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:21.680
And I especially love this because how many times have you heard people say just off-handedly, so like dismissively, like, oh, I can't do that in my business because it's too expensive?
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.160
Like, because my I don't want my product quality to drop.
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:26.720
Right.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:32.480
Because my staff like already knows the system and they, you know, that it's hot change is hard for them.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:40.480
So he kind of he not kind of, he fully contradicts he's a he his company, uh, interface tile, I think.
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:42.079
Did I even say the name of his company?
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:48.880
Uh, is a is a living example of how that all of those yah butts don't have to be true.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:56.960
Okay, so again, we're just gonna swing the pendulum of conversation back.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:08.240
Um, the hero of history really does broaden the scope and kind of scales out, like it feels to me like we're zooming out and we're looking at the whole world and through time and space, really.
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:25.200
And now we're gonna zoom back in, take some of that inspiration, some of that momentum we maybe picked up in the heroes of history, and move it into our own activating segment that we call the world's most host the world's most wholesome truth or dare.
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:30.160
I I don't know whether I don't know how many truth or dare sessions get in the world.
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.960
So I don't really know what competition I'm up against.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:37.519
There's like an article online and we have to break the top 10 or something first.
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:38.319
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.200
Or like what is the measure of more wholesome or less wholesome?
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:46.559
What I will say is we don't swear, and none of this is uh, you know, is it's all G.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:50.000
We're a G-rated uh podcast over here.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:52.880
Uh we're G-rated operation, maybe PG.
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:59.839
Hayden, um, I'm gonna just ask you if you true, truth or dare.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:02.799
Truth.
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:04.720
Okay.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:10.720
I think I've asked you this on an episode that we never released.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.960
So I'm sorry, I'm just gonna hit you with it again.
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:30.319
Do you find, Hayden, that living more sustainably challenges relationships and or especially intimate relationships?
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:43.440
Do you find it's like harder to date if you are sustainably minded, or do you find that like friend there are certain friendships that are strained because of your commitment to sustainability?
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.680
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:53.039
I I do kind of think it does affect dating.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:34:05.920
Um and it's more like a personal thing because I haven't I haven't been in a romantic relationship in like a year or more now.
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:40.320
Um but I've been on dates, and I think it is something that I'm like paying attention to when we're getting to know each other, and if there maybe, you know, some of their passions or interests lie in things that I don't necessarily like I don't see myself really ever engaging in, or or maybe even in some cases it's like, wow, like I just I don't even want to associate with with that kind of stuff anymore.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:47.599
Um I mean that and I recognize that that is harsh and almost unfair in a way.
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.639
Like we all have our our lines and what's important to us and everything.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:35:04.639
Um and at the same time, like I don't I don't want to just immediately just kind of like write someone off because of one thing or another.
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:22.320
Um but I yeah, if if I'm honest, it does it it changes the way that I go into dating because I think I'm I'm looking for specific values that might not be the most uh the most common.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:23.199
Right.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:34.639
Um as far as friendships, I think it depends, but I haven't found in in any of my friendships uh it actually causing any real problems.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:36.400
Yeah, well that's good.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:36:08.880
I think at the most like I can be uncomfortable sometimes with like saying saying no to certain activities or like going somewhere or something like that because I I don't wanna don't wanna like mess things up, I guess, or or just like make people uncomfortable or um feel bad about you know they're they're like nice enough to invite me on a trip or something, for example, and I'm like, well, that doesn't really feel right to me, so I don't really want to do that.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.840
So I have to kind of navigate that in a in a way that feels good to me also.
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:14.400
Right.
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:16.559
And that doesn't like hurt their feelings.
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:17.440
Exactly.
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:18.239
Yeah.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:23.599
But fortunately, there have been no no riffs created because of it.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:25.440
Good.
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:26.960
That's great, that's good.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:33.119
It's yeah, I guess well, if you don't mind me just sharing a little No, please.
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:45.519
Because it of course makes me think about my relationships, that it's you know, friends tend to orbit close and far away and close and far away, at least in my experience on life so far.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:46.639
For me too, for sure.
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:46.880
Yeah.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:47.280
Yeah.
00:36:47.440 --> 00:37:06.960
So that I find that as my commitment to sustainability kind of grows deeper and more profound, that the friends who remain in closer orbit are the ones who are more open to even if not changing, at least not being offended.
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:16.079
Yeah, by at least not taking some weird offense by a thing that I've been very careful to not tell, not be didactic about or to not be instructive about.
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.440
Like you have to do it too.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:22.559
So I guess it's changed relationships, but like for the better.
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:41.440
And even like my current boyfriend is like his mindset was not at all pointed towards sustainability when we met, and that wasn't a deal breaker because I liked who he was, you know, in all the other ways.
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:48.159
And that when he saw and knew and learned, and when I was pretty said pretty outright, like, hey, this is a really important thing to me.
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:50.880
And you don't have to do everything the same way I do it.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:59.360
But if you made any kind of effort, it would go a long way in showing me what kind of partnership future we can have.
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:01.840
And then boom, it was like he was he was all about it.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.519
He's like, Oh, this is a way I can basically show her this is her love language.
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:06.559
Yeah, no problem.
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.320
And then he's reporting back to me things like, Whoa, I used to take out my garbage every week.
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:12.079
Now it's been like two months.
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:12.719
Wow.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:27.840
You know, like he it's like trickling in in a way that I feel is like, oh, that's actually more lasting and um sustainable than if I came in like finger wagging, like you have to do this, this, and that.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:29.280
Oh, absolutely.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:31.599
Well, and that's really inspirational.
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:33.039
I'm glad you shared that.
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:53.360
And I like I was saying, I I do want to I want to go into dating with less uh, I guess less of like a a lower bar around sustainability because I know it isn't, it's just that's just our culture that we live in, is it's uh it's just kind of crazy.
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:54.880
Our culture, you know.
00:38:55.039 --> 00:39:03.119
So like the the vision that I have for my life is pretty pretty different from most people's.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:14.880
And I do want to do my best to to recognize that and like be okay with with people not being at that same vision.
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:15.360
Right.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:27.760
And Hayden, if you don't mind me quoting you from a while ago, this is one of like my favorite things that you've ever said, is when I I was getting kind of high and mighty about like how great I was or how far behind other people were, whatever.
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.320
You were like, Evelyn, that was us like two weeks ago.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.119
Right.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:31.920
Yeah.
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:32.639
Yeah.
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:33.280
Okay.
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:34.400
Um beautiful.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:35.360
Yes, beautiful.
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:35.760
Thank you.
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:36.480
Okay, right.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:37.360
Oh, don't let me.
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.280
I almost skipped by without true true letting you truth or dare, me.
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:42.559
Yeah, don't get out of this.
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:47.519
I accidentally, quote unquote, almost forgot.
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:51.519
Well, you did you you kind of answered your own truth question.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.559
Yeah, fair enough.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:56.079
Uh but Evelyn, truth or dare.
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.239
Yeah, maybe we should go with a dare.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.440
Let's get some activity out of this.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:02.400
All right.
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.280
Which one do I want to do?
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:13.920
I dare you to spend a morning without screens, music, or any other external input.
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:15.199
Oh, lovely.
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:25.039
And if it makes sense, try spending this time in in silence too, or even go as far as like no reading if if you want to.
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:25.679
Wow.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:31.599
Um, and and then if you feel like it, continue it on further into the day past the morning.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:32.239
Okay.
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:34.559
I'm already excited.
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:46.800
It's like permission to do a thing that would be hard to have the discipline I feel to do if all the other nagging bits of productivity were getting in.
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:50.960
But if this is on my to-do list, essentially my action items, yeah.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:52.400
Yeah, it's part of a dare.
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:53.280
I have to.
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:55.280
Wow, that's great.
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.079
I think I'm gonna get that done this weekend.
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:02.880
Not get it done like it's a chore, but like I think I'm gonna make it happen this weekend.
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:03.199
Nice.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:03.920
Yeah.
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:04.880
Enjoy.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:05.519
Thanks.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:05.920
I will.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:06.800
I'll let you know.
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:20.079
And for our listeners, we won't necessarily talk about the dare part of it on air, but you can always check out our website and see what the updates are on each episode of how they went, if we actually if they went.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:21.840
I think most of them have so far.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.400
We've like made it happen one way or another.
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:25.440
Yep, yep.
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:26.639
Okay, glorious.
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:28.719
Well, this is our final little bit here.
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:37.920
We're just gonna transition out from, you know, we went from big picture to little picture to personal to, you know, like we went from successes to challenges.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:48.719
Now we're just gonna end with sending off you guys out there in the world in back into the world with um an activating challenge with like, you know, your own action item.
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:53.360
Um, Hayden, do you want to share what we recommend this time?
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:54.639
Yeah.
00:41:54.800 --> 00:42:02.159
Um, we would love for you guys to check out that book by Paul Hawken that was that spear in the chest.
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.079
Well, that's how it felt to Ray Anderson.
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:04.480
Yes.
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:06.239
It's called The Ecology of Commerce.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.360
Yeah, that's what I meant.
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:08.239
Oh, yes, yes.
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:08.960
Okay, very good.
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:10.880
Yeah, the book is not spear in the chest.
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:16.639
I'm sure there's a great book out there called Spear in the Chest, maybe like a fictional war book or something.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:17.199
Yeah.
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:23.599
Um, but yes, the The Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:24.960
Free PDF.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:27.039
We'll we'll we'll make sure to link it.
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:27.920
It's yeah.
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:34.880
And Paul Hawken is also the author or one of the authors, I get like the main author of Project Drawdown, I believe.
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:49.599
Which is like a pretty, pretty comprehensive, impressive book with a list of a ton of um large scale actions uh to basically kind of save ourselves.
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:50.320
Sure.
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:50.719
Yeah.
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:55.920
Well, some of those actions Ray Anderson took up, and some of them hopefully we can take up.
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:56.480
Yeah.
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:57.760
All right, Hayden.
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.880
Well, thanks as always for the time, and I'll see you next time.
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:01.679
Thank you.
00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:02.960
Thanks, everyone.
