WEBVTT
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Focus on important things, you know, like can you build hypotheses?
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Do you know how to talk to users?
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Sure, you can run the research through the tool, but do you understand the insights?
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Do you understand what those insights mean?
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What are the so what's of the insights, you know?
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Like the basic things that make or break your design.
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Thank you for being here today on Building Iconic.
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And I stumbled across you on LinkedIn as I do other amazing individuals, but you definitely caught my eye.
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And just set the stage, like what you do and how you've accomplished where you are today.
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Give us a little bit of background of your story and we'll start there.
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Yeah, thank you.
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And I really appreciate that because when I saw your profile, I was like, oh my God, me.
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I felt so uh grateful.
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So I really appreciate um, you know, you inviting me and me being here.
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And I think, yes, what I do indeed lives in what I used to do because I started in the old school manner of recruitment, and then I found my way to design recruitment, and I just loved it so much like talking to designers and building relationships, looking into portfolios, it was like the whole new world, and that was something that really made this very repetitive and admin-heavy work very inspiring for me.
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But I also saw how many things just not working, and it was incredible because we were all building those awesome products, but then you would look in the ATS, the monster that everyone is so afraid of nowadays, and uh, you know, they would just not work.
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You know, it was a really bad software, bad looking, bad functioning, very limited in terms of um features.
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And so I started kind of just sharing more how it is to be inside of the recruitment process because I felt that so many people don't understand how basic things work.
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And I think that's what brought me here.
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I just kept on doing that, and the opportunities kept on showing off.
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Um I was also doing it in the right time, it was COVID time.
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I think now is also the right time.
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Like every time when we go through like a massive change in the market, and now indeed we are in the middle of it, right?
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With the AI um wave coming, it's just a great opportunity to kind of show who you are as a human and kind of lean into those soft skills and qualities and competences of yours.
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And this is what I did.
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And so now, in a couple of words, I guess what I do is that I say that I help people to find their path, whatever it is.
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So moving from I just need to get a job, what do I do?
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Where's my position in lacking?
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You know, I can analyze that and give solid advice that really helps to build a better candidate profile.
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But also now I'm starting to expand it because maybe a bad um ad for my full-time recruitment um kind of job, but I don't believe in the old school work anymore.
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You know, I don't believe in secure employment, I don't believe in linear careers anymore, personally.
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And I see that lots of people proving me right.
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And so I want to help everyone to build their own path and be whatever they want to be.
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So making sexy products out of themselves and marketing them well.
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Hell yeah.
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I'm all about marketing and how you can position yourself.
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I always tell my kids, you're you're little brands too.
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You gotta own your personal brand, put it out there and make sure that it's it's monitored in the way that you want at every moment.
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I would love to dive in with you more because I agree with what you're saying.
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This shift is happening.
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And speaking about design and AI and how are you helping designers through this shift, those that you work with?
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Like what does that look like?
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For now, it's quite a basic help, I think.
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I feel more as a coach/slash therapist rather than the person who helps to execute.
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Because I think lots of people come to me and say, Well, you know, I cannot be successful on my process because AI is filtering me out.
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And so I spend certain time.
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I look, I always make fun that like I'm being paid to explain basic things, being like, oh well, ATS does not filter you out.
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Or it's like pre-selected criteria basically of the questions that you're not passing.
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But like the LLM itself, there is no such LLM in recruitment yet that can actually filter you out.
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Or what I'm helping with, like lots of designers who come to me, they're very curious.
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So they have those awesome side projects, but they don't know how to talk about them.
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And so they would just put in their CVs and portfolios being like, I built a flow that saved uh like 20% of the time.
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And I'm like, how did you how did you calculate that?
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Like, no one is gonna ever buy it, you know.
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Like, talk about how that makes you a better designer.
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Show what you've built, you know, like show, don't tell.
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I I like that mentality.
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I think like in our time, that's the best that you can do.
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So I think it's still coming from positioning.
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And the next step that I am planning on taking, and I think we all should be really supporting our community on taking is really taking the people who have been building products, skill sets, brands with AI, and kind of, you know, start educating the masses as well.
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Because I'm seeing the designers who weren't afraid of working with the tools, and you know, people who said, Oh my god, AI is gonna replace me, but said, Oh my god, look at that! Like, let's do it.
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You know, I have some designers who are like obsessed about cloud code, and I know some designers who are so afraid that cloud code is gonna remove them from the market.
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And so those designers who are not afraid, I think they should lead the way of their education and what they're missing is the platform.
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Uh, and I think that's what I'm intended to give to many people, just to make sure that we all move into a better time of design and research rather than being afraid of machines that take away our jobs.
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If we look at the fear and see that it is understandable for designers to be scared, I think that is as you know, folks are marketing this messaging and positioning of like you should be scared, it can do everything.
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And I think that that is like how certain tools position themselves to win in the market versus the actual application of what's happening with the tools.
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Like we use the tools, we've explored tools and we're using them at Babco.
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And you still need a thought partner to direct and be strategic.
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And so if you're not scared and you're using the tools, that's a huge value add because I think that folks are going to be looking for designers who are very efficient and effective with AI, and that will become a new standard.
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And I'm curious what you're seeing when folks are trying to fill roles with you.
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Like, what are you seeing?
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Is there a shift there in terms of what they're looking for?
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Yes.
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And everything that you're saying, it's already happening.
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And in fact, the market that is actively looking, they also know that.
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And I think it doesn't come down to like oh, job descriptions having, oh, we want AI native designers.
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Because, like, what does it even mean?
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Like, we all use AI tools, but like, what does it mean?
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Like, it means nothing exactly.
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I love that you say that.
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I agree.
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But for example, now I'm working, I'm like the sideway recruiter.
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I I call myself like a person who makes high-quality introductions rather than I'm gonna be running your recruitment process.
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Like, you know, you don't need me for scheduling conversations, and in fact, I don't want to do that anymore.
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But I have the access to people and I make the right call, who is the right candidate for you, and I put my name on that.
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And it's been working really well.
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And so, a couple of clients who came to me, they literally said, we want like a very strong, very senior designer.
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So that hasn't changed since like a couple of years, right?
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Like staff, senior staff principal designers, those were like the highest that most of the companies were going after.
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But now what they say is that this person can grow into the head of role or can be a head of, but they will not be having the headcount to grow the team in the foreseeable several years.
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So if before that, there was still some estimate that, like after two years, if we close the round or something like that, if we become profitable, we'll grow the team.
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Now funders don't really rely on that that much.
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What they say, we want a person who understands how to use to use the tools to make the team efficient and effective with the head count that they have.
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And that is what's gonna become the superpower.
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So not only are you not afraid, but you understand how to use those tools to really support not only your own workflows, but also like your team's works or workflows.
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And it's gonna be relevant for everyone who's above senior, I would say, right?
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Because if you're a staff designer and you don't understand how to prototype with AI and cannot teach anyone to do that, you're not a senior at this point, you know.
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And so that is very interesting shift how fast it came.
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What, however, everyone needs to understand as well that even though founders and hiring managers, VP of Sober Design, and so on and so forth, like they say that, no one really knows how to do that.
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And so I think that's where there is a great opportunity.
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It's kind of like with the take-home tasks, you know, when every company had them in whatever form, but no one really knew what the good answer looked like before they would actually saw like the good solution.
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And I think that's that that is a problem with design hiring in general.
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And so there is like a massive opportunity for designers who understand how to use those tools to really set the standards and you know have a massive saying without even like joining the company yet.
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And so we all wanted for design to have a seat at the table.
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And I think with this change, there is an opportunity to gain that influence from the get-go.
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And how do you, as a designer, would you say, position yourself if you were to market yourself?
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How do you think that we should position ourselves?
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I'll include myself as a designer, as a designer in that category.
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I have my own ideas on how to position, and and in my social media, I do this already, but I'm curious like, what do you feel works in the marketplace right now with companies you're working for?
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What kind of positioning?
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Yeah.
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Position is a massive topic, to be honest.
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And I think like we wouldn't be able to cover it in one hour, even like to go properly uh through all of that.
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And this is something that I talk a lot through my sessions.
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I think what's important to understand that positioning is not like a universal thing, like this is a good position in, because you say ABC and this is the bad positioning.
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Positioning is still extremely individual, it's very authentic to you as well.
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So there is a part that, like, what is it that the companies are looking for?
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Everyone wants fountain designers, everyone wants AI and HV designers, everyone wants high craft, everyone wants very senior designers, and we also understand that now with the shift in the market, most of the companies want designers who have worked in B2B SaaS environments, right?
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Because those are the designers who understand the compliance, how to make money, growth design is quite big in those environments as well.
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So, like those doesn't make money, yeah, not design.
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But it drives a lot of traffic, right?
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And like that's what also lots of companies are talking about, like really kind of you know, driving the this traffic and driving the user through the through the pipeline.
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So that is what like companies want.
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And here's the second part like what is it that you're good at?
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And I always say, like, write down three things that you're really, really good at, or write down three things that you love doing, or write down what you really don't like doing, and like do not position yourself in that direction.
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You know, if you don't like doing research, it's okay.
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There are tools for that now, right?
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Like, don't talk about research too much then.
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And I think that's how you build your position.
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And you know, like I have worked in B2B SaaS environment, I have built zero to one or one-to-many.
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Um, you know, I worked as a PM and designer.
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That's a very strong angle for position.
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And because now smaller teams win, right?
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So if you actually have this blend of experiences, or everyone loves talking about designer engineers, right?
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And design engineers is a blend of engineering and design.
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And of course, this is a great position in this current market.
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So there's no one fits all.
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And it doesn't mean that like if you can use AI tools, you will get every role because not every company, in fact, needs an AI native designer, or maybe they need one, but they're hiring several.
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So not everyone can be.
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Um, and the companies also understand that because this topic is not yet as big within organizations, it's not like everyone is tackling AI from different teams.
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Like back in the days, I remember that Miro literally had one AI designer when I was working there.
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Remember those times when everyone was designing something in AI and putting it on top of the product?
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And so there was just literally one person responsible for that.
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And I don't see bigger shifts in that.
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Like I can still see that many products have just a couple of designers who are working on AI.
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So I think really working with your strengths and working with market trends is how positioning works and like how you win.
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I am curious to hear more about the scale when because I think there is, you know, the solo designer, the single designer, being a founding designer on a team, being that solo designer is one thing.
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But when you start to think about scale and especially enterprise, there's never just one designer, right?
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Companies, you can start up something and it's like, okay, we're a starter, we're just doing something and we're gonna prove that it works.
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And then there's scaling it, and then there's maintaining it.
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And so in that scaling and maintenance phase, I'm curious what you're seeing in terms of team size and impact of AI at that level.
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Because I think once you start realizing that AI actually introduces problems and challenges because you're working so quickly, I think it does require even more oversight and more strategic thought partnership and making sure one, that the tool is in alignment with that strategy, and also your design team is in alignment and the rest of the company.
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So I'm curious what you're seeing there in terms of roles for people that we would classify at Babco as a scaler and a Titan.
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So folks that are, you know, past the starter phase, past that smaller team phase, and they're actually proved, they proved themselves, but now they're executing and trying to scale.
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And then Titans would be someone like an Airbnb or a Nike who have already established themselves and they have a full suite of product that they're maintaining.
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Yeah.
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You know, for both of those, like I've seen a very similar trend.
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And I think that's something that is gonna backfire at some point.
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This is like more old school way of working, but now with new choice in our hands.
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I'm seeing that there are still designers who are owning separately those pieces of work.
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Like you said, there isn't like one designer for enterprise product.
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I've seen those teams, right?
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Like those are understaffed teams, right?
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Like there is nothing to say, but I still see that there is one main designer driving like a security topic, and then some designers can kind of you know contribute to some other parts of the features, you know, like that's how they support the product.
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And what I'm seeing right now from the hiring, I've mostly been working with like either very fresh startups or like larger organizations, some of them already public, some of them like this good scale-ups, and very similar trends.
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I've been seeing that one person would be responsible for that and then bring that AI.
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And I've been always wondering like, is there any documentation that's happening?
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You know, like are you just sitting alone and kind of iterating and coming up with those ideas, and then you just bring them and being like, okay, I came up with that thing, like, you know, with my whatever, you know, prototyping tool, and you you you go and build it.
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So I think that's what I'm gonna like.
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That's what we might see at the scale of the company is that people still stay very isolated because they're so senior, because that's been the trend of hiring, hiring very, very senior people who can independently drive product areas rather than just single teams.
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And this is kind of the definition of the staff design.
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And I'm wondering if like that's what you've been doing at RBB, but that's what I've been observing across Fan and the rest of the successful organizations.
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But then at the same time, there is very little kind of collaboration across teams unless there is one common project that they build in together from different sides.
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And so I think that's the complication that AI is gonna bring.
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Like you might remember, of course, you remember those times when we were all working on like breaking down monolith into microservices, and then everyone was like, oh, everyone was building whatever, you know, and now we cannot do that because it's like it's like a scary octopus that no one knows how to touch.
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And I kind of feel that's what we're gonna get from many sites because as you scale, documentation is not that great, and many decisions are gonna be made on the hype of the tools and how fast they can build, and how fast we can ship, and how fast we can start getting the revenue stream kind of running, instead of like, oh, is it sustainable for the overall product um going forward?
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So this is this is what I've been observing slash what I think is gonna happen, but of course, no one knows.
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I am so curious to hear more from you on what you think is the right team structure for.
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So we we think in terms at Babco as a starter, scaler, and Titan.
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And if you could you could look forward and see you're seeing the shifts in real time.
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If you were to speak to a founder, tell them what kind of design do a team do they need and who should they hire for in though in that in those different phases?
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Like how should the team size look?
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Is it small, is it big, is it nimble?
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So I'm curious to get your thoughts on that.
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Yeah, for sure.
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I think if we're looking at like a start starter, as you said, like as a profile of a designer, I think that is a great designer for small companies that like picking up from the market.
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Like I've been working with some companies that still haven't found the product market fit, but they already have several designers, and I'm like, what are they designing?
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Like, I don't, I like I wouldn't know why you need three mid-level designers who most likely don't communicate properly because of just simple lack of experience, right?
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Like it's not nothing bad to say.
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So I would say all founding roles should be proper stuff designers.
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Like, this is exactly where stuff thrives because they extremely strong on the executional part, but they also very strategic.
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Like they understand how a product needs to look from zero to one in the middle, and then from one to many.
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And I think that can go up until the point when you actually start getting proper traction from users, and the more users you get, the more problems you discover.
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That's just how it goes, right?
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Yeah, that's and that's where when you need to start building teams.
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And I personally understand why companies keep on hiring extremely senior designers, like you know, teams of 10 staff designers.
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Like, I understand why it looks exciting, but I think that's where also a lot of movement and kind of you know, lack of retention is coming from.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:19.200
Because imagine you come as a staff designer, you build the product, you build the company from scratch.
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:24.720
And of course, you expect that you're gonna be ahead of design, you know, when the time comes and you start growing.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:36.400
And so instead of doing that, many founders start bringing very similar peers to you, and you basically all kind of, you know, you don't have the manager and you're all peers, and everyone starts having very strong opinions.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:42.240
And I think strong opinions are great, but I think the problem is here is that every product needs to have a direction.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:48.319
So I personally believe that like a staff designer can drive a product organization to a very long time.
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:50.240
That's my personal opinion.
00:20:50.480 --> 00:21:05.920
But unless you start building the team of like three, four designers, a staff designer is more than able to manage the team and give them a lot because they still need a lot on the craft side rather than how I move you from senior to a manager level, right?
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:07.839
Like that's the management job.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:27.519
And so while their company is still trying to figure out like who they are and what they do and building like the first set of features, honestly, I think like a staff designer and a couple of mid-level designers, like this is a great tandem because mid-level designers will learn how to execute quickly, will learn how to prioritize things from the from the other designer.
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:31.039
And then I think when you start really getting attraction, I don't know.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:43.279
If we talk like I wouldn't talk about in terms of um investment rounds, because we all know like companies drive investment rounds at such different stages, um, that you know, at this point it wouldn't make sense.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:44.559
Like, you know, look at Lovable.
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:45.599
Who knew?
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.920
You know, that they would be growing that much.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:22:13.200
But I think when the company starts actually becoming like a multi product platform or you know, having a couple of million users, for example, rather than a couple of gay users and they feel that okay, like our hands are full now with growth and UX and compliance and security issues on the product side.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:22.400
I think that is the time for you to actually bring a proper proper head of design who should decide then how the team needs to look like depending on the amount of the work.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:35.440
Because what I'm seeing as a big problem is that people like founders don't realize that when so many issues come together and start bubbling up, like looking like features, but they're not features.
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:55.599
This is literally like your roadmap is stuck into you and saying if you don't fix security, you will not have a product and potentially like a like a staff product designer, they can build it but they cannot move the needle fast enough in those conversations with founders and engineer and leaders and product leaders.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:03.200
So I think like as soon as there are pressing issues, you need to bring a proper presser and design leaders are quite good at that.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:12.640
Like I know many incredible design leaders who are so strong and like having those complicated conversations and really kind of standing for user and compliance and all of those very important topics.
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:18.880
But I think what we should leave you know if we were to look from the other side like we should leave teams that have only staff designers.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.000
Like what is that thing?
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:24.400
You know like I've been hiring last year with like 20 companies all of them are staff designers.
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:34.559
And I'm like okay but like where do juniors go you know and like what's happening with our mid-level designers like what's gonna happen to the market in five years and like what's wrong with mid-level designers?
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.559
I've worked with so many clients who like meat like solid meat.
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:41.920
Like solid meat now is not what it used to be five years ago.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:49.039
No no those are people who used to be seniors you know like they are solid and craft is good and portfolios are fun.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:54.799
There's a lot of taste because there's many more tools as well and they grew with those tools as designers.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:05.440
So I honestly think that's a that's a massive missed opportunity of lower cost of the team but also higher input in just one, two years.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:12.559
I want to talk to you a little bit about when you hire great people, they're usually ambitious because that's how they became great.
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:40.640
They're always pushing themselves to the next level and the next level and the next level and when you have that kind of environment you have that kind of person if they don't see a place to go and grow because everyone's at that same level can you speak to what you've seen about that because I think that when you have everyone at the same level and there's no space for your own growth, that can be diminishing and put you in a position where then you're like, oh well no I I don't want to be in this space anymore.
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:57.519
I've seen it I've lived it myself you know and I think like we've all experienced that and honestly back in the days when I was still in my full-time jobs I I've always managed to build very strong relationships with heads of design and a couple of times I would literally be like okay but like where are they gonna grow?
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:05.599
Like what they're gonna do you know you hire this amazing staff designer and then 20 more and in three years they all want to get a promotion so what are you gonna do?
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.000
You know oh we don't know what's gonna happen in three years.
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:09.039
Well guess what happened?
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.279
So they all stayed and there is nowhere to grow.
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:20.559
So that's what happens and I honestly think this is a great time to have this problem because I know so many people will disagree with me but hear me out.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:30.960
Like a couple of years ago the the matter of not having somewhere to grow within the organization would force you to go and search for a better role.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:38.240
But right now many people try to avoid it at all costs and there's a very simple reason for that it's literally impossible to get hired.
00:25:38.400 --> 00:26:00.559
It's possible but it's really complicated you know and it's not only complicated because it's like people don't know how to be candidates it's complicated because companies don't know how to be hiring managers you know like companies have no idea what's happening how to hire there is very little respect sometimes as well to like human capital you know and talent and time and unfortunately it is the truth.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:16.400
And so I think now what those incredible ambitious people should start doing is kind of looking around and I've seen it many times I've seen it many times at this point when designers decide all right like I'm gonna build something on my own.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:27.200
And they do and they ship because there are tools for that like you know and they have networks and they are amazing people you know they're amazing designers and like that is the way to channel it.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:42.559
And I've seen other people who go fractional for example you know you don't have to work for yourself but you can still touch different products and build awesome things and have much more freedom and much more money I mean frankly you know let's let's face it.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:55.599
So I think being afraid of not having anywhere to go from like that designer perspective it's something that like I would love to challenge because there are plenty of things to do.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:07.200
And because the hiring is so complicated and so painful and so slow and so risk averse there's never been more opportunities to be a contractor or freelancer or fractional.
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:40.160
Companies love to hire for those roles because simply for them it's easier to bring you on board within one day and then let you go you know of the project but you still you earned you seen you've worked and quite often actually those hires would move into in-house afterwards because companies would see oh it's working really well and the relationships are great and this is like the type of person that we will never hire on our own and and then they bring those people into the teams so I think that is that is not a scary thing.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.960
The scary thing is that companies think it's okay to do that.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:28:03.039
Like the scary thing is that learning and development HR or leadership you know part of the organization don't really think about those complications that are created in careers of people because what I'm seeing a lot that those people are stuck in the roles and they don't know what to do.
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:10.000
And then we go to hire and my hiring manager says I don't want to hire someone who's been stuck in the same role for three years.
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:16.319
And I'm like haven't you seen what's been happening on the market like you know are we in the same market but that that is a reality.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:32.640
I think there's there's so much in there and I'll say that I think the fractional aspect is one of the reasons why Babco has been so successful because we allow our founders to tap in to different design disciplines as they need them.
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:36.640
And I do think there is a a market for that that has exploded.
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:55.680
I think folks were like oh well agencies survive but I think that the way that we've seen at Babco is that the allowing folks to come in as needed on demand, giving them the design they need when they need it and nothing more than that has worked so well for us as a partner.
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:14.319
And I think that there's more play for designers as consultants like you're saying I do think that is it is a new wave and potentially something that you know early founders are able to tap into because of this new this new market.
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:28.799
100% and I agree with you because it also it's just very interesting to see how something that like we all thought that agencies would die in this like weird you know scenario of the market.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:35.519
And I honestly know that all recruitment agencies and design agencies have been thriving with business.
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:49.920
And it's really interesting because all full-time recruiters have been fired like left and right like so many full-time researchers and designers were fired and yet all people who betton on themselves like making good checks.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:55.599
So that's why I love that we're having this conversation because I think it's not that there is no work.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.079
It's just that we need to look at work differently.
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:01.279
That is a perfect soundbite and that's so true.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:14.000
And I think that folks like you said who are willing to ride the wave and yes it's it's probably a little bit of a scary wave because it's really big but it's so exciting when you get on it.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:24.400
Like if you really get on get on the wave and you're like this is a shift happening and I'm going to use it for my own growth and my own development and you just skyrocket yourself.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:31:00.000
And I think part of that is why you're seeing folks and I'm curious your thoughts too like the mid-level designer becoming stronger because they have access to these other tools now that multiply them that's what I've been saying it's like a it's these tools are really truly multipliers because now it is accurate that one person can do the job of I don't know what the number would be because you're you're in the seat, you're doing it but I know that my team I mean the work that we put out is you know we might do a marketing reel that would have taken like 10 people before and we're doing it with one or two.
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:09.680
And so it's like the amount of output you can have the amount of creativity you can put into it if you put the right direction is a true multiplier.
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:10.160
Yeah.
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:14.400
But it has to be strategic especially as you scale.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:47.680
I 100% agree and it's very interesting what you say about like the mid-level Fox it's just because I am seeing more mid-level designers who are much more hands-on with tools than senior designers and I think that's exactly because of the fear you know I once had a session with my coach and she said oh you've been so successful in your first year of solopreneurship like what do you dedicate your success to and I was like I was really afraid you know but I used my fear as a fuel and that's what I'm seeing mid-level designers do.
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:51.119
Like they know that it's bad out there.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:53.599
Like for them it's like properly bad.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:12.240
And so they're so scared that instead of being like numb they actually start playing around and using and experimenting and what comes out is like very interesting takes on tools and craft and taste you know and all of those things that like are so important right now.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:23.200
Where senior designers they know it's bad out there but they're like but like you know it's still okay it's still better than middle level people have you know and that's where they face that backlash.
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:44.640
So and that's also very interesting because so many clients that I work with the less senior they are the more of that diversity of experience they have agency, freelance, full time, you know like here and there basically grabbing everything to create like a good case study for their portfolio where the more senior you become the more picky you become and I'm not saying being picky is bad.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:53.519
I'm saying that sometimes you just need to let go and see where the wave takes you and not not to not be afraid of that simply I completely agree.
00:32:53.680 --> 00:34:57.440
And I I I really want to I want to tap into how do we train folks the folks that are hiring how do we train them to see this need of the beyond the the senior level designer beyond the one designer can do it all what would you say to them to help them understand the full picture of the future for them I think that is a great question you know because I've spent last several years telling designers what and researchers what they do wrong and why they're not getting hired but I think we should spend some time and say that's yeah they'll say wrong yeah let's educate them exactly because like you know sometimes I come into the team and I'm like oh wow so you managed to hire someone with this process good for you bless you um so I think it comes down like in my personal experience what works really well in terms of like educational process is when you come and you ask critical very direct questions and I know it's not everyone's style but it is my style you know like everyone says that like um tough love is a word that sound next to my name a lot okay sure but basically what I do with founders when they say oh I need like uh this and that person they need to be so seen I'm like oh really so what they're gonna do like what they're gonna deliver in five months it's a simple question in my personal opinion and and they don't know and I'm like well if you don't know you don't need such a senior person right and then I I think there's a very simple question and like very simple pushback like that that is a good you need to push back on teams you know you need to just argument in a very clean way that they might not be right with their assessment because uh when someone comes to you and says that they need like a very senior designer and they have 100k in their pocket they don't need a senior design like you cannot afford the senior designer I'm sorry you know so let us talk what can you what what you can afford let's let's think about that.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:06.559
So I think really it's a very simple balance of what you have what needs to be delivered and what you think you need.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:30.320
And you just try to bring those three together and so what I'm usually doing with the teams is really without sometimes showing LinkedIns and stuff like that I show case studies you know I show what the person has delivered um you know I talk about the person before I show something and they're like oh yes amazing amazing and then we look at the person and it's actually like you know at just like beginning of the senior level.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:36:11.280
Yeah I don't think it's like a senior enough you guys have like a company that hasn't even passed product market fit like maybe that's good for you you know maybe like you know for this first level in you know wireframes and interactions so I think it just like you know it's really comes down to the to the conversation for me what's a red flag and what cannot be educated is when the team comes and says this is what we need and then they don't have a clear understanding what the person is going to be doing how success is going to be measured they don't have any process of promoting developing support and onboarding specifically like what are we gonna do if this person doesn't succeed in three months I'm like what are you gonna do?
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:15.519
Like what am I have to do like with the onboards like you need to onboard the person not me.
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:26.639
I'm a recruiter you know I bring the talent like it's that but that's a big question you know because if my candidate goes to the process and then they fire it within three months because they didn't know how to onboard them that is a problem.
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:51.440
And so I think this is the type of the company that ooh and that's controversial opinion but I honestly think we as the community we need to push back and these companies should not have access to talented people who want to do the best job because this is just toxic environments that will not you know contribute to your success to your career to your mental health and so this is something that I personally actually have been doing.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:37:05.119
Like I've been going to so many discovery calls and sometimes when I see that I'm like I will not be bringing my network into your company because you're just not ready to take any feedback and recruitment recruitment and design are very similar.
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:12.639
It's the process of iteration it's the process of taking feedback from your teams and from your candidates and iterating on the go.
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:21.119
Sometimes when candidates say oh they don't know what they're looking for that's true because it's really hard to create a role like you know you're just putting pieces out of nowhere.
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:33.440
But I think what's really important is that the team the hiring team is ready to iterate and ready to make as much effort as possible to create some kind of outline what this person's going to be working on.
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:38.320
And if that's not even provided I don't think those are the companies that we all should be joining.
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:52.400
So I want to push on this one a little bit more because I agree with you and I really want to set the stage with how you do it well and how you do you can sideswipe yourself.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:38:03.920
How I've seen companies do this well is really being visionary and thinking through the future instead of just fighting each fire as it comes.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:08.079
So if you're firefighting you're not able to be strategic.
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:29.920
And some companies obviously you have to fight fires because that's the stage that you're at but if you have time to set aside thinking strategically about recruiting like the the best founders that I know are strategic in every decision that they make and because it's calculated and it's intentional.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:41.679
So you might go oh my gosh my product is is uh needs a designer right away and it's like like you're saying ask yourself these questions why why do you need a designer what are they going to work on?
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:59.679
But I want to uplevel that even further to like what's the vision of the company what's the mission does it all work up to that and I think that as you you know instead of going up the ladder this way you need the vision first and work backwards from it.
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:09.039
And that's really where we start to help our companies like really crystallize that vision and mission and work towards it.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:14.400
But that is the same I think even for hiring like you want it to be towards that same direction.
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:17.280
Do you need someone what are they going to do?
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:18.719
Do they meet the vision?
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:20.000
Do they meet the culture?
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:56.320
So those are like questions founders should start to ask themselves so early on earlier than they think I 100% agree and I think like in this whole hurdle of layoffs and AI we forgot about those things and like for me it's not necessarily vision and the mission of the company because I think like now the market is just so intense that's like you know today you build in A and tomorrow you build in B because well cloud cloud release design disrupted overnight you're like I was just sleeping now I'm disrupted.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:12.559
And you're like oh and that's why what I as a candidate potentially would try to understand more is like what are the values the company has because values and I'm gonna be changing because of the direction of the company is changing.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:18.800
And who I would really be trying to assess in that is as you said I love that you said it like founder.
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:20.800
Are they flexible?
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:22.880
Are they inspiring?
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:24.320
Are they passionate?
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.480
You know are they visionary?
00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:46.960
Because vision and mission like you know sure but like it's always coming from the person right and so sometimes when I have conversations with the founders and I see that for them like they don't even understand a difference between like people bringing talent into your company and people on boarding the talent in your company they don't really like they don't really care.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:49.039
Like they just need someone to do the job.
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:59.199
And I find that these are the teams that are the hardest to educate you know because it all comes down to like oh you're just like a small resource in my pipeline of needs.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:16.960
But when you go to like very passionate founders you know they would say okay well let's build something else right and like they would just redirect the whole company and I think this is where I've seen the most interesting collaboration where founders just like you know so passionate but also ready to be educated.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:28.159
They're ready to be disrupted as the leader who should know it all but in fact like maybe never hired for a designer or never scaled the team before like first time founder.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.400
So for me that is what you don't know.
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:42.480
Exactly exactly I love that I think the you know the best founders hire amazing folks around them and then let go.
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:55.840
Because I think a lot of founders they like they can micromanage and try to like nitpick everything but if you truly hire the right person you can let go and relax.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:14.079
And I think that part of the strategy is building towards that like you don't want to be a founder who's always doing everything but you have to be able to look and say these things I'm good at and these things I'm not good at and I'm gonna hire the people who are the best in the areas that I'm not good at first.
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:17.679
I think there's so much in here for founders.
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:28.320
Is there anything else that you would say that founders should follow in terms of a playbook for how to think about hiring design in AI, this new AI world right now?
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:29.760
Yes, for sure.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:51.920
I think like two things that definitely come to mind right away and two things that are unfortunately kind of absent in our market thing number one is sure you should follow your instincts and trust your leadership team to make the right hire but I think what I wish to see more in the market is trust in your recruitment partner.
00:42:52.159 --> 00:43:13.519
Because it's very interesting to observe how so many founders come to me because of my brand and it's not just the brands like you know I'm known because I've worked with all these people I've hired all these people like I've done the work but then they put me in the process and they challenge everything I say and I'm like I'm okay with being challenged but like sometimes it's like I'm not gonna be proving you that I know how to do that.
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:24.480
Like you know some CTOs would say you know how many VPs of design I've heard I'm like I bet not as many as I have you know like we're not gonna be working we're not gonna be doing but that's true.
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.400
I'm like I love it.
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:42.559
You brought me to tell you that it's like what kind and you know and I've worked with some of the most incredible design partners you know there's this incredible uh agency that's called Good Maven.
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:57.280
They operate from London but globally and their founder is the first design recruiter in the London Facebook back in the days office and like she's worked there for so many years absolutely incredible founder and design recruiter.
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:08.800
And we worked on so many gigs together Last year and still, like, you know, I thought it was just me problem, but like sometimes, like, still, you know, there's not enough trust in our judgment.
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:12.400
And like, my only role is to hire people for design roles.
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:14.480
Like, you know, I've done a lot of it.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:16.400
So I would love to see that more.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:38.639
And it's maybe like a shift in the mindset, even because recruitment used to be so just a service provider, but now with AI as well, with like these emailing and messaging AI tools that, like, you know, kind of kill this personal touch, recruiters with strong network, like this is the best asset you can really get into your pipeline.
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:40.559
You know, like they will bring you talent.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:46.000
I think that, you know, you and I have reached the place where we don't need to prove anymore.
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:47.519
We've proven ourselves.
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:48.000
Oh, yeah.
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:52.159
And so when someone comes in and they're like, prove yourself again, you're like, no, no, no, no.
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:53.280
We've done that.
00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:55.679
I don't need to prove myself to you.
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.960
If it if I do, then this is the wrong relationship.
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.000
But I I think that you you do reach that point.
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:03.440
So I I hear you on that.
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:04.000
All right.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:05.760
Any other any other tidbits?
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:06.239
Yeah.
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:12.320
And I think the second one, like with AI specifically, I think, and this is something that I really like.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.639
I wish that would reach many people.
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:19.519
It's like, yes, it is important that the person is like curious about AI.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:25.599
And I don't see the reason why a designer cannot purchase themselves like a tool and play around.
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:30.320
Like, I've played with every prototype and tool there is, and I'm not a designer, you know.
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:33.679
So like when people say I haven't tried, I'm like, well, you should, you know.
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.840
But at the same time, I still believe that like AI is just a tool.
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:41.199
So like you should be focusing on hiring a very strong designer.
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:46.000
And a very strong designer for a company is very different from a very strong designer from B company.
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:46.559
What do you need?
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:48.239
Do you need an analytical designer?
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:49.599
Do you need a very visual designer?
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:51.280
Do you need like a T-shaped designer?
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:55.119
Like, I don't like that companies stop talking about T-shaped profiles.
00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:00.000
Like, there are T-shaped profiles, you know, and people have tried many things.
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:04.480
And so I think, like, yes, it's a it's a hype, it's a vibe, you know.
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:08.079
Oh, yeah, have you vibe coded uh with lovable?
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:08.880
Sure.
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:14.559
But then focus on on important things, you know, like can you build hypotheses?
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:16.719
Do you know how to talk to users?
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:20.960
Sure, you can run the research through the tool, but do you understand the insights?
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.039
Do you understand what those insights mean?
00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:29.519
What are the so what's of the insights, you know, like the basic things that make or break your design?
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:32.800
And so I think that is what I keep on telling all the founders.
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:34.480
I'm like, sure, we can play around.
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:36.960
I can bring you a couple of AI native profiles.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:44.000
And once you understand that it doesn't make much difference, can we focus on all profiles and you know work with everyone?
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:49.440
Because you need a strong designer and they can learn it on the go because designers can learn absolutely everything.
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:54.400
That is the one thing that I've seen in all designers.
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:58.719
We are so immersed in creation.
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:01.199
Oh, yeah, that we'll use any tool.
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:03.440
You give us any tool, we're gonna create with it.
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:08.480
Scalpel, like you know, we're gonna go and we're gonna do the clay and make it different.
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:21.199
And and and that used to be Photoshop, then it was what sketch, and then Figma, and now we're like like other tools now in the market space, like that, you know, there's so much out there to use.
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:39.119
And I think no matter what tool you use, the creative mind and the strategy and focusing on the user, like you're saying, and understanding intimate details and empathy and brand, like all of these things are judgment calls that you're making along the way, even when you're using a different tool.
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:39.599
Exactly.
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.480
So I love that you stated that people do forget, they're like, oh, you could just use, you could just vibe design or vibe code this thing.
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:52.000
It's like, well, actually, it required uh 200 judgment calls along the way that you didn't see.
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:59.599
And maybe those judgment calls are made faster because in there, you know, you're more efficient, but they're still there and they're still needed.
00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:04.719
And also to add to that, it's just like, I know, I love that people say, Oh, you can vibe code so fast.
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.039
True, but like it doesn't mean it's good.
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:08.960
Yes, absolutely.
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:09.840
Absolutely.
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:15.039
Taste and quality, you know, you have to have this taste.
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:19.519
And unless you've been doing it for a while, you cannot do that.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:25.440
And like what, we're gonna end up with the same designs in five years because designers are not creating new design systems anymore.
00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:27.360
Like, I don't want to live in that world, you know.
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:32.320
No, not no who wants to live in the world where everything's the same.
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:34.719
That would be completely boring.
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:36.239
How sad would that be?
00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:37.199
How sad?
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:41.519
We're gonna we're we're not gonna move into that world because design is here to stay.
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:42.800
I really believe that.
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:45.760
And Lena, this was a wonderful conversation.
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:48.719
It was a breath of fresh air to talk with you.
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:56.880
And I'm looking forward to continuing the conversations together because I can feel already that we're gonna continue to work together.
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:58.480
There's something, there's something there.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.480
Focus on important things, you know, like can you build hypotheses?
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:06.559
Do you know how to talk to users?
00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:10.800
Sure, you can run the research through the tool, but do you understand the insights?
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:12.880
Do you understand what those insights mean?
00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:15.519
What are the so what's of the insights, you know?
00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:19.519
Like the basic things that make or break your design.
00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.440
Thank you for being here today on Building Iconic.
00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:36.560
And I stumbled across you on LinkedIn as I do other amazing individuals, but you definitely caught my eye.
00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:43.920
And just set the stage, like what you do and how you've accomplished where you are today.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:48.399
Give us a little bit of background of your story and we'll start there.
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:49.840
Yeah, thank you.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.640
And I really appreciate that because when I saw your profile, I was like, oh my God, me.
00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:57.520
I felt so uh grateful.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:01.759
So I really appreciate um, you know, you inviting me and me being here.
00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:27.280
And I think, yes, what I do indeed lives in what I used to do because I started in the old school manner of recruitment, and then I found my way to design recruitment, and I just loved it so much like talking to designers and building relationships, looking into portfolios, it was like the whole new world, and that was something that really made this very repetitive and admin-heavy work very inspiring for me.
00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:42.879
But I also saw how many things just not working, and it was incredible because we were all building those awesome products, but then you would look in the ATS, the monster that everyone is so afraid of nowadays, and uh, you know, they would just not work.
00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:50.239
You know, it was a really bad software, bad looking, bad functioning, very limited in terms of um features.
00:01:50.400 --> 00:02:00.079
And so I started kind of just sharing more how it is to be inside of the recruitment process because I felt that so many people don't understand how basic things work.
00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:02.000
And I think that's what brought me here.
00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:05.920
I just kept on doing that, and the opportunities kept on showing off.
00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.120
Um I was also doing it in the right time, it was COVID time.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:10.560
I think now is also the right time.
00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:16.800
Like every time when we go through like a massive change in the market, and now indeed we are in the middle of it, right?
00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:26.960
With the AI um wave coming, it's just a great opportunity to kind of show who you are as a human and kind of lean into those soft skills and qualities and competences of yours.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:28.080
And this is what I did.
00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:36.240
And so now, in a couple of words, I guess what I do is that I say that I help people to find their path, whatever it is.
00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:40.560
So moving from I just need to get a job, what do I do?
00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:43.039
Where's my position in lacking?
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:49.599
You know, I can analyze that and give solid advice that really helps to build a better candidate profile.
00:02:49.840 --> 00:03:00.479
But also now I'm starting to expand it because maybe a bad um ad for my full-time recruitment um kind of job, but I don't believe in the old school work anymore.
00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:07.759
You know, I don't believe in secure employment, I don't believe in linear careers anymore, personally.
00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.400
And I see that lots of people proving me right.
00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:16.000
And so I want to help everyone to build their own path and be whatever they want to be.
00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:21.439
So making sexy products out of themselves and marketing them well.
00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:22.240
Hell yeah.
00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:25.840
I'm all about marketing and how you can position yourself.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.199
I always tell my kids, you're you're little brands too.
00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:35.520
You gotta own your personal brand, put it out there and make sure that it's it's monitored in the way that you want at every moment.
00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:40.560
I would love to dive in with you more because I agree with what you're saying.
00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:42.159
This shift is happening.
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:51.039
And speaking about design and AI and how are you helping designers through this shift, those that you work with?
00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:52.560
Like what does that look like?
00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:56.639
For now, it's quite a basic help, I think.
00:03:56.800 --> 00:04:02.560
I feel more as a coach/slash therapist rather than the person who helps to execute.
00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:10.960
Because I think lots of people come to me and say, Well, you know, I cannot be successful on my process because AI is filtering me out.
00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:12.639
And so I spend certain time.
00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:20.079
I look, I always make fun that like I'm being paid to explain basic things, being like, oh well, ATS does not filter you out.
00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:24.959
Or it's like pre-selected criteria basically of the questions that you're not passing.
00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:31.759
But like the LLM itself, there is no such LLM in recruitment yet that can actually filter you out.
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:36.240
Or what I'm helping with, like lots of designers who come to me, they're very curious.
00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:41.040
So they have those awesome side projects, but they don't know how to talk about them.
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:49.120
And so they would just put in their CVs and portfolios being like, I built a flow that saved uh like 20% of the time.
00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:51.600
And I'm like, how did you how did you calculate that?
00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.399
Like, no one is gonna ever buy it, you know.
00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:58.639
Like, talk about how that makes you a better designer.
00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:01.839
Show what you've built, you know, like show, don't tell.
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:03.360
I I like that mentality.
00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.560
I think like in our time, that's the best that you can do.
00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.839
So I think it's still coming from positioning.
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:27.839
And the next step that I am planning on taking, and I think we all should be really supporting our community on taking is really taking the people who have been building products, skill sets, brands with AI, and kind of, you know, start educating the masses as well.
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:42.000
Because I'm seeing the designers who weren't afraid of working with the tools, and you know, people who said, Oh my god, AI is gonna replace me, but said, Oh my god, look at that! Like, let's do it.
00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:49.519
You know, I have some designers who are like obsessed about cloud code, and I know some designers who are so afraid that cloud code is gonna remove them from the market.
00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:56.160
And so those designers who are not afraid, I think they should lead the way of their education and what they're missing is the platform.
00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:09.360
Uh, and I think that's what I'm intended to give to many people, just to make sure that we all move into a better time of design and research rather than being afraid of machines that take away our jobs.
00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:26.079
If we look at the fear and see that it is understandable for designers to be scared, I think that is as you know, folks are marketing this messaging and positioning of like you should be scared, it can do everything.
00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:37.360
And I think that that is like how certain tools position themselves to win in the market versus the actual application of what's happening with the tools.
00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:41.759
Like we use the tools, we've explored tools and we're using them at Babco.
00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:47.759
And you still need a thought partner to direct and be strategic.
00:06:48.000 --> 00:07:04.079
And so if you're not scared and you're using the tools, that's a huge value add because I think that folks are going to be looking for designers who are very efficient and effective with AI, and that will become a new standard.
00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:07.680
And I'm curious what you're seeing when folks are trying to fill roles with you.
00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:08.879
Like, what are you seeing?
00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:11.680
Is there a shift there in terms of what they're looking for?
00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:12.399
Yes.
00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:15.360
And everything that you're saying, it's already happening.
00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:19.360
And in fact, the market that is actively looking, they also know that.
00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:25.040
And I think it doesn't come down to like oh, job descriptions having, oh, we want AI native designers.
00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:26.720
Because, like, what does it even mean?
00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:29.759
Like, we all use AI tools, but like, what does it mean?
00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:31.199
Like, it means nothing exactly.
00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:32.319
I love that you say that.
00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:33.040
I agree.
00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.199
But for example, now I'm working, I'm like the sideway recruiter.
00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:43.279
I I call myself like a person who makes high-quality introductions rather than I'm gonna be running your recruitment process.
00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:48.000
Like, you know, you don't need me for scheduling conversations, and in fact, I don't want to do that anymore.
00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:55.040
But I have the access to people and I make the right call, who is the right candidate for you, and I put my name on that.
00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:57.040
And it's been working really well.
00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:03.759
And so, a couple of clients who came to me, they literally said, we want like a very strong, very senior designer.
00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:06.959
So that hasn't changed since like a couple of years, right?
00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:12.800
Like staff, senior staff principal designers, those were like the highest that most of the companies were going after.
00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:25.199
But now what they say is that this person can grow into the head of role or can be a head of, but they will not be having the headcount to grow the team in the foreseeable several years.
00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:33.360
So if before that, there was still some estimate that, like after two years, if we close the round or something like that, if we become profitable, we'll grow the team.
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:36.559
Now funders don't really rely on that that much.
00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:46.240
What they say, we want a person who understands how to use to use the tools to make the team efficient and effective with the head count that they have.
00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:48.879
And that is what's gonna become the superpower.
00:08:49.039 --> 00:09:00.480
So not only are you not afraid, but you understand how to use those tools to really support not only your own workflows, but also like your team's works or workflows.
00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:05.039
And it's gonna be relevant for everyone who's above senior, I would say, right?
00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:12.960
Because if you're a staff designer and you don't understand how to prototype with AI and cannot teach anyone to do that, you're not a senior at this point, you know.
00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.639
And so that is very interesting shift how fast it came.
00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:26.559
What, however, everyone needs to understand as well that even though founders and hiring managers, VP of Sober Design, and so on and so forth, like they say that, no one really knows how to do that.
00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:30.399
And so I think that's where there is a great opportunity.
00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:44.480
It's kind of like with the take-home tasks, you know, when every company had them in whatever form, but no one really knew what the good answer looked like before they would actually saw like the good solution.
00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:48.159
And I think that's that that is a problem with design hiring in general.
00:09:48.399 --> 00:10:01.759
And so there is like a massive opportunity for designers who understand how to use those tools to really set the standards and you know have a massive saying without even like joining the company yet.
00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.679
And so we all wanted for design to have a seat at the table.
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:12.159
And I think with this change, there is an opportunity to gain that influence from the get-go.
00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:18.399
And how do you, as a designer, would you say, position yourself if you were to market yourself?
00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:21.840
How do you think that we should position ourselves?
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:26.399
I'll include myself as a designer, as a designer in that category.
00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:38.559
I have my own ideas on how to position, and and in my social media, I do this already, but I'm curious like, what do you feel works in the marketplace right now with companies you're working for?
00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:39.919
What kind of positioning?
00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:40.879
Yeah.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.360
Position is a massive topic, to be honest.
00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:49.279
And I think like we wouldn't be able to cover it in one hour, even like to go properly uh through all of that.
00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:51.919
And this is something that I talk a lot through my sessions.
00:10:52.159 --> 00:11:00.000
I think what's important to understand that positioning is not like a universal thing, like this is a good position in, because you say ABC and this is the bad positioning.
00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:06.240
Positioning is still extremely individual, it's very authentic to you as well.
00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:10.480
So there is a part that, like, what is it that the companies are looking for?
00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:28.240
Everyone wants fountain designers, everyone wants AI and HV designers, everyone wants high craft, everyone wants very senior designers, and we also understand that now with the shift in the market, most of the companies want designers who have worked in B2B SaaS environments, right?
00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:35.360
Because those are the designers who understand the compliance, how to make money, growth design is quite big in those environments as well.
00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.600
So, like those doesn't make money, yeah, not design.
00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:42.399
But it drives a lot of traffic, right?
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:50.240
And like that's what also lots of companies are talking about, like really kind of you know, driving the this traffic and driving the user through the through the pipeline.
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.480
So that is what like companies want.
00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:55.919
And here's the second part like what is it that you're good at?
00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:07.440
And I always say, like, write down three things that you're really, really good at, or write down three things that you love doing, or write down what you really don't like doing, and like do not position yourself in that direction.
00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.559
You know, if you don't like doing research, it's okay.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:12.159
There are tools for that now, right?
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.320
Like, don't talk about research too much then.
00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:16.399
And I think that's how you build your position.
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:23.600
And you know, like I have worked in B2B SaaS environment, I have built zero to one or one-to-many.
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.919
Um, you know, I worked as a PM and designer.
00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:29.759
That's a very strong angle for position.
00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:32.480
And because now smaller teams win, right?
00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:38.559
So if you actually have this blend of experiences, or everyone loves talking about designer engineers, right?
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.279
And design engineers is a blend of engineering and design.
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.120
And of course, this is a great position in this current market.
00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:48.320
So there's no one fits all.
00:12:48.399 --> 00:13:00.080
And it doesn't mean that like if you can use AI tools, you will get every role because not every company, in fact, needs an AI native designer, or maybe they need one, but they're hiring several.
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.840
So not everyone can be.
00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:11.120
Um, and the companies also understand that because this topic is not yet as big within organizations, it's not like everyone is tackling AI from different teams.
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:16.159
Like back in the days, I remember that Miro literally had one AI designer when I was working there.
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:21.360
Remember those times when everyone was designing something in AI and putting it on top of the product?
00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:25.120
And so there was just literally one person responsible for that.
00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:27.679
And I don't see bigger shifts in that.
00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:33.759
Like I can still see that many products have just a couple of designers who are working on AI.
00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:41.840
So I think really working with your strengths and working with market trends is how positioning works and like how you win.
00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:55.120
I am curious to hear more about the scale when because I think there is, you know, the solo designer, the single designer, being a founding designer on a team, being that solo designer is one thing.
00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:02.320
But when you start to think about scale and especially enterprise, there's never just one designer, right?
00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:08.320
Companies, you can start up something and it's like, okay, we're a starter, we're just doing something and we're gonna prove that it works.
00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:11.600
And then there's scaling it, and then there's maintaining it.
00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:20.720
And so in that scaling and maintenance phase, I'm curious what you're seeing in terms of team size and impact of AI at that level.
00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:43.519
Because I think once you start realizing that AI actually introduces problems and challenges because you're working so quickly, I think it does require even more oversight and more strategic thought partnership and making sure one, that the tool is in alignment with that strategy, and also your design team is in alignment and the rest of the company.
00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:52.960
So I'm curious what you're seeing there in terms of roles for people that we would classify at Babco as a scaler and a Titan.
00:14:53.360 --> 00:15:03.919
So folks that are, you know, past the starter phase, past that smaller team phase, and they're actually proved, they proved themselves, but now they're executing and trying to scale.
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:12.159
And then Titans would be someone like an Airbnb or a Nike who have already established themselves and they have a full suite of product that they're maintaining.
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:12.879
Yeah.
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:17.120
You know, for both of those, like I've seen a very similar trend.
00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:21.120
And I think that's something that is gonna backfire at some point.
00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:25.919
This is like more old school way of working, but now with new choice in our hands.
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:31.039
I'm seeing that there are still designers who are owning separately those pieces of work.
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.879
Like you said, there isn't like one designer for enterprise product.
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:36.320
I've seen those teams, right?
00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:38.559
Like those are understaffed teams, right?
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:52.639
Like there is nothing to say, but I still see that there is one main designer driving like a security topic, and then some designers can kind of you know contribute to some other parts of the features, you know, like that's how they support the product.
00:15:52.879 --> 00:16:07.440
And what I'm seeing right now from the hiring, I've mostly been working with like either very fresh startups or like larger organizations, some of them already public, some of them like this good scale-ups, and very similar trends.
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:12.480
I've been seeing that one person would be responsible for that and then bring that AI.
00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:17.039
And I've been always wondering like, is there any documentation that's happening?
00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:30.399
You know, like are you just sitting alone and kind of iterating and coming up with those ideas, and then you just bring them and being like, okay, I came up with that thing, like, you know, with my whatever, you know, prototyping tool, and you you you go and build it.
00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.120
So I think that's what I'm gonna like.
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:50.879
That's what we might see at the scale of the company is that people still stay very isolated because they're so senior, because that's been the trend of hiring, hiring very, very senior people who can independently drive product areas rather than just single teams.
00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.360
And this is kind of the definition of the staff design.
00:16:53.440 --> 00:17:02.480
And I'm wondering if like that's what you've been doing at RBB, but that's what I've been observing across Fan and the rest of the successful organizations.
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:14.240
But then at the same time, there is very little kind of collaboration across teams unless there is one common project that they build in together from different sides.
00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.359
And so I think that's the complication that AI is gonna bring.
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:34.799
Like you might remember, of course, you remember those times when we were all working on like breaking down monolith into microservices, and then everyone was like, oh, everyone was building whatever, you know, and now we cannot do that because it's like it's like a scary octopus that no one knows how to touch.
00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:59.599
And I kind of feel that's what we're gonna get from many sites because as you scale, documentation is not that great, and many decisions are gonna be made on the hype of the tools and how fast they can build, and how fast we can ship, and how fast we can start getting the revenue stream kind of running, instead of like, oh, is it sustainable for the overall product um going forward?
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:06.079
So this is this is what I've been observing slash what I think is gonna happen, but of course, no one knows.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:14.319
I am so curious to hear more from you on what you think is the right team structure for.
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:19.279
So we we think in terms at Babco as a starter, scaler, and Titan.
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:24.480
And if you could you could look forward and see you're seeing the shifts in real time.
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:36.960
If you were to speak to a founder, tell them what kind of design do a team do they need and who should they hire for in though in that in those different phases?
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:39.119
Like how should the team size look?
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.519
Is it small, is it big, is it nimble?
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:43.359
So I'm curious to get your thoughts on that.
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:44.960
Yeah, for sure.
00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:56.640
I think if we're looking at like a start starter, as you said, like as a profile of a designer, I think that is a great designer for small companies that like picking up from the market.
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:03.839
Like I've been working with some companies that still haven't found the product market fit, but they already have several designers, and I'm like, what are they designing?
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:14.480
Like, I don't, I like I wouldn't know why you need three mid-level designers who most likely don't communicate properly because of just simple lack of experience, right?
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:16.480
Like it's not nothing bad to say.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:21.839
So I would say all founding roles should be proper stuff designers.
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:29.920
Like, this is exactly where stuff thrives because they extremely strong on the executional part, but they also very strategic.
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:36.079
Like they understand how a product needs to look from zero to one in the middle, and then from one to many.
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:47.359
And I think that can go up until the point when you actually start getting proper traction from users, and the more users you get, the more problems you discover.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.200
That's just how it goes, right?
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:53.440
Yeah, that's and that's where when you need to start building teams.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:20:02.960
And I personally understand why companies keep on hiring extremely senior designers, like you know, teams of 10 staff designers.
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:14.559
Like, I understand why it looks exciting, but I think that's where also a lot of movement and kind of you know, lack of retention is coming from.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:19.200
Because imagine you come as a staff designer, you build the product, you build the company from scratch.
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:24.720
And of course, you expect that you're gonna be ahead of design, you know, when the time comes and you start growing.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:36.400
And so instead of doing that, many founders start bringing very similar peers to you, and you basically all kind of, you know, you don't have the manager and you're all peers, and everyone starts having very strong opinions.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:42.240
And I think strong opinions are great, but I think the problem is here is that every product needs to have a direction.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:48.319
So I personally believe that like a staff designer can drive a product organization to a very long time.
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:50.240
That's my personal opinion.
00:20:50.480 --> 00:21:05.920
But unless you start building the team of like three, four designers, a staff designer is more than able to manage the team and give them a lot because they still need a lot on the craft side rather than how I move you from senior to a manager level, right?
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:07.839
Like that's the management job.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:27.519
And so while their company is still trying to figure out like who they are and what they do and building like the first set of features, honestly, I think like a staff designer and a couple of mid-level designers, like this is a great tandem because mid-level designers will learn how to execute quickly, will learn how to prioritize things from the from the other designer.
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:31.039
And then I think when you start really getting attraction, I don't know.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:43.279
If we talk like I wouldn't talk about in terms of um investment rounds, because we all know like companies drive investment rounds at such different stages, um, that you know, at this point it wouldn't make sense.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:44.559
Like, you know, look at Lovable.
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:45.599
Who knew?
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.920
You know, that they would be growing that much.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:22:13.200
But I think when the company starts actually becoming like a multi product platform or you know, having a couple of million users, for example, rather than a couple of gay users and they feel that okay, like our hands are full now with growth and UX and compliance and security issues on the product side.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:22.400
I think that is the time for you to actually bring a proper proper head of design who should decide then how the team needs to look like depending on the amount of the work.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:35.440
Because what I'm seeing as a big problem is that people like founders don't realize that when so many issues come together and start bubbling up, like looking like features, but they're not features.
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:55.599
This is literally like your roadmap is stuck into you and saying if you don't fix security, you will not have a product and potentially like a like a staff product designer, they can build it but they cannot move the needle fast enough in those conversations with founders and engineer and leaders and product leaders.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:03.200
So I think like as soon as there are pressing issues, you need to bring a proper presser and design leaders are quite good at that.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:12.640
Like I know many incredible design leaders who are so strong and like having those complicated conversations and really kind of standing for user and compliance and all of those very important topics.
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:18.880
But I think what we should leave you know if we were to look from the other side like we should leave teams that have only staff designers.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.000
Like what is that thing?
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:24.400
You know like I've been hiring last year with like 20 companies all of them are staff designers.
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:34.559
And I'm like okay but like where do juniors go you know and like what's happening with our mid-level designers like what's gonna happen to the market in five years and like what's wrong with mid-level designers?
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.559
I've worked with so many clients who like meat like solid meat.
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:41.920
Like solid meat now is not what it used to be five years ago.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:49.039
No no those are people who used to be seniors you know like they are solid and craft is good and portfolios are fun.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:54.799
There's a lot of taste because there's many more tools as well and they grew with those tools as designers.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:05.440
So I honestly think that's a that's a massive missed opportunity of lower cost of the team but also higher input in just one, two years.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:12.559
I want to talk to you a little bit about when you hire great people, they're usually ambitious because that's how they became great.
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:40.640
They're always pushing themselves to the next level and the next level and the next level and when you have that kind of environment you have that kind of person if they don't see a place to go and grow because everyone's at that same level can you speak to what you've seen about that because I think that when you have everyone at the same level and there's no space for your own growth, that can be diminishing and put you in a position where then you're like, oh well no I I don't want to be in this space anymore.
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:57.519
I've seen it I've lived it myself you know and I think like we've all experienced that and honestly back in the days when I was still in my full-time jobs I I've always managed to build very strong relationships with heads of design and a couple of times I would literally be like okay but like where are they gonna grow?
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:05.599
Like what they're gonna do you know you hire this amazing staff designer and then 20 more and in three years they all want to get a promotion so what are you gonna do?
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.000
You know oh we don't know what's gonna happen in three years.
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:09.039
Well guess what happened?
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.279
So they all stayed and there is nowhere to grow.
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:20.559
So that's what happens and I honestly think this is a great time to have this problem because I know so many people will disagree with me but hear me out.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:30.960
Like a couple of years ago the the matter of not having somewhere to grow within the organization would force you to go and search for a better role.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:38.240
But right now many people try to avoid it at all costs and there's a very simple reason for that it's literally impossible to get hired.
00:25:38.400 --> 00:26:00.559
It's possible but it's really complicated you know and it's not only complicated because it's like people don't know how to be candidates it's complicated because companies don't know how to be hiring managers you know like companies have no idea what's happening how to hire there is very little respect sometimes as well to like human capital you know and talent and time and unfortunately it is the truth.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:16.400
And so I think now what those incredible ambitious people should start doing is kind of looking around and I've seen it many times I've seen it many times at this point when designers decide all right like I'm gonna build something on my own.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:27.200
And they do and they ship because there are tools for that like you know and they have networks and they are amazing people you know they're amazing designers and like that is the way to channel it.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:42.559
And I've seen other people who go fractional for example you know you don't have to work for yourself but you can still touch different products and build awesome things and have much more freedom and much more money I mean frankly you know let's let's face it.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:55.599
So I think being afraid of not having anywhere to go from like that designer perspective it's something that like I would love to challenge because there are plenty of things to do.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:07.200
And because the hiring is so complicated and so painful and so slow and so risk averse there's never been more opportunities to be a contractor or freelancer or fractional.
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:40.160
Companies love to hire for those roles because simply for them it's easier to bring you on board within one day and then let you go you know of the project but you still you earned you seen you've worked and quite often actually those hires would move into in-house afterwards because companies would see oh it's working really well and the relationships are great and this is like the type of person that we will never hire on our own and and then they bring those people into the teams so I think that is that is not a scary thing.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.960
The scary thing is that companies think it's okay to do that.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:28:03.039
Like the scary thing is that learning and development HR or leadership you know part of the organization don't really think about those complications that are created in careers of people because what I'm seeing a lot that those people are stuck in the roles and they don't know what to do.
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:10.000
And then we go to hire and my hiring manager says I don't want to hire someone who's been stuck in the same role for three years.
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:16.319
And I'm like haven't you seen what's been happening on the market like you know are we in the same market but that that is a reality.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:32.640
I think there's there's so much in there and I'll say that I think the fractional aspect is one of the reasons why Babco has been so successful because we allow our founders to tap in to different design disciplines as they need them.
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:36.640
And I do think there is a a market for that that has exploded.
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:55.680
I think folks were like oh well agencies survive but I think that the way that we've seen at Babco is that the allowing folks to come in as needed on demand, giving them the design they need when they need it and nothing more than that has worked so well for us as a partner.
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:14.319
And I think that there's more play for designers as consultants like you're saying I do think that is it is a new wave and potentially something that you know early founders are able to tap into because of this new this new market.
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:28.799
100% and I agree with you because it also it's just very interesting to see how something that like we all thought that agencies would die in this like weird you know scenario of the market.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:35.519
And I honestly know that all recruitment agencies and design agencies have been thriving with business.
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:49.920
And it's really interesting because all full-time recruiters have been fired like left and right like so many full-time researchers and designers were fired and yet all people who betton on themselves like making good checks.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:55.599
So that's why I love that we're having this conversation because I think it's not that there is no work.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.079
It's just that we need to look at work differently.
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:01.279
That is a perfect soundbite and that's so true.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:14.000
And I think that folks like you said who are willing to ride the wave and yes it's it's probably a little bit of a scary wave because it's really big but it's so exciting when you get on it.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:24.400
Like if you really get on get on the wave and you're like this is a shift happening and I'm going to use it for my own growth and my own development and you just skyrocket yourself.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:31:00.000
And I think part of that is why you're seeing folks and I'm curious your thoughts too like the mid-level designer becoming stronger because they have access to these other tools now that multiply them that's what I've been saying it's like a it's these tools are really truly multipliers because now it is accurate that one person can do the job of I don't know what the number would be because you're you're in the seat, you're doing it but I know that my team I mean the work that we put out is you know we might do a marketing reel that would have taken like 10 people before and we're doing it with one or two.
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:09.680
And so it's like the amount of output you can have the amount of creativity you can put into it if you put the right direction is a true multiplier.
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:10.160
Yeah.
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:14.400
But it has to be strategic especially as you scale.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:47.680
I 100% agree and it's very interesting what you say about like the mid-level Fox it's just because I am seeing more mid-level designers who are much more hands-on with tools than senior designers and I think that's exactly because of the fear you know I once had a session with my coach and she said oh you've been so successful in your first year of solopreneurship like what do you dedicate your success to and I was like I was really afraid you know but I used my fear as a fuel and that's what I'm seeing mid-level designers do.
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:51.119
Like they know that it's bad out there.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:53.599
Like for them it's like properly bad.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:12.240
And so they're so scared that instead of being like numb they actually start playing around and using and experimenting and what comes out is like very interesting takes on tools and craft and taste you know and all of those things that like are so important right now.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:23.200
Where senior designers they know it's bad out there but they're like but like you know it's still okay it's still better than middle level people have you know and that's where they face that backlash.
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:44.640
So and that's also very interesting because so many clients that I work with the less senior they are the more of that diversity of experience they have agency, freelance, full time, you know like here and there basically grabbing everything to create like a good case study for their portfolio where the more senior you become the more picky you become and I'm not saying being picky is bad.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:53.519
I'm saying that sometimes you just need to let go and see where the wave takes you and not not to not be afraid of that simply I completely agree.
00:32:53.680 --> 00:34:57.440
And I I I really want to I want to tap into how do we train folks the folks that are hiring how do we train them to see this need of the beyond the the senior level designer beyond the one designer can do it all what would you say to them to help them understand the full picture of the future for them I think that is a great question you know because I've spent last several years telling designers what and researchers what they do wrong and why they're not getting hired but I think we should spend some time and say that's yeah they'll say wrong yeah let's educate them exactly because like you know sometimes I come into the team and I'm like oh wow so you managed to hire someone with this process good for you bless you um so I think it comes down like in my personal experience what works really well in terms of like educational process is when you come and you ask critical very direct questions and I know it's not everyone's style but it is my style you know like everyone says that like um tough love is a word that sound next to my name a lot okay sure but basically what I do with founders when they say oh I need like uh this and that person they need to be so seen I'm like oh really so what they're gonna do like what they're gonna deliver in five months it's a simple question in my personal opinion and and they don't know and I'm like well if you don't know you don't need such a senior person right and then I I think there's a very simple question and like very simple pushback like that that is a good you need to push back on teams you know you need to just argument in a very clean way that they might not be right with their assessment because uh when someone comes to you and says that they need like a very senior designer and they have 100k in their pocket they don't need a senior design like you cannot afford the senior designer I'm sorry you know so let us talk what can you what what you can afford let's let's think about that.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:06.559
So I think really it's a very simple balance of what you have what needs to be delivered and what you think you need.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:30.320
And you just try to bring those three together and so what I'm usually doing with the teams is really without sometimes showing LinkedIns and stuff like that I show case studies you know I show what the person has delivered um you know I talk about the person before I show something and they're like oh yes amazing amazing and then we look at the person and it's actually like you know at just like beginning of the senior level.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:36:11.280
Yeah I don't think it's like a senior enough you guys have like a company that hasn't even passed product market fit like maybe that's good for you you know maybe like you know for this first level in you know wireframes and interactions so I think it just like you know it's really comes down to the to the conversation for me what's a red flag and what cannot be educated is when the team comes and says this is what we need and then they don't have a clear understanding what the person is going to be doing how success is going to be measured they don't have any process of promoting developing support and onboarding specifically like what are we gonna do if this person doesn't succeed in three months I'm like what are you gonna do?
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:15.519
Like what am I have to do like with the onboards like you need to onboard the person not me.
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:26.639
I'm a recruiter you know I bring the talent like it's that but that's a big question you know because if my candidate goes to the process and then they fire it within three months because they didn't know how to onboard them that is a problem.
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:51.440
And so I think this is the type of the company that ooh and that's controversial opinion but I honestly think we as the community we need to push back and these companies should not have access to talented people who want to do the best job because this is just toxic environments that will not you know contribute to your success to your career to your mental health and so this is something that I personally actually have been doing.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:37:05.119
Like I've been going to so many discovery calls and sometimes when I see that I'm like I will not be bringing my network into your company because you're just not ready to take any feedback and recruitment recruitment and design are very similar.
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:12.639
It's the process of iteration it's the process of taking feedback from your teams and from your candidates and iterating on the go.
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:21.119
Sometimes when candidates say oh they don't know what they're looking for that's true because it's really hard to create a role like you know you're just putting pieces out of nowhere.
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:33.440
But I think what's really important is that the team the hiring team is ready to iterate and ready to make as much effort as possible to create some kind of outline what this person's going to be working on.
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:38.320
And if that's not even provided I don't think those are the companies that we all should be joining.
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:52.400
So I want to push on this one a little bit more because I agree with you and I really want to set the stage with how you do it well and how you do you can sideswipe yourself.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:38:03.920
How I've seen companies do this well is really being visionary and thinking through the future instead of just fighting each fire as it comes.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:08.079
So if you're firefighting you're not able to be strategic.
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:29.920
And some companies obviously you have to fight fires because that's the stage that you're at but if you have time to set aside thinking strategically about recruiting like the the best founders that I know are strategic in every decision that they make and because it's calculated and it's intentional.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:41.679
So you might go oh my gosh my product is is uh needs a designer right away and it's like like you're saying ask yourself these questions why why do you need a designer what are they going to work on?
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:59.679
But I want to uplevel that even further to like what's the vision of the company what's the mission does it all work up to that and I think that as you you know instead of going up the ladder this way you need the vision first and work backwards from it.
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:09.039
And that's really where we start to help our companies like really crystallize that vision and mission and work towards it.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:14.400
But that is the same I think even for hiring like you want it to be towards that same direction.
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:17.280
Do you need someone what are they going to do?
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:18.719
Do they meet the vision?
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:20.000
Do they meet the culture?
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:56.320
So those are like questions founders should start to ask themselves so early on earlier than they think I 100% agree and I think like in this whole hurdle of layoffs and AI we forgot about those things and like for me it's not necessarily vision and the mission of the company because I think like now the market is just so intense that's like you know today you build in A and tomorrow you build in B because well cloud cloud release design disrupted overnight you're like I was just sleeping now I'm disrupted.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:12.559
And you're like oh and that's why what I as a candidate potentially would try to understand more is like what are the values the company has because values and I'm gonna be changing because of the direction of the company is changing.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:18.800
And who I would really be trying to assess in that is as you said I love that you said it like founder.
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:20.800
Are they flexible?
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:22.880
Are they inspiring?
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:24.320
Are they passionate?
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.480
You know are they visionary?
00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:46.960
Because vision and mission like you know sure but like it's always coming from the person right and so sometimes when I have conversations with the founders and I see that for them like they don't even understand a difference between like people bringing talent into your company and people on boarding the talent in your company they don't really like they don't really care.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:49.039
Like they just need someone to do the job.
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:59.199
And I find that these are the teams that are the hardest to educate you know because it all comes down to like oh you're just like a small resource in my pipeline of needs.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:16.960
But when you go to like very passionate founders you know they would say okay well let's build something else right and like they would just redirect the whole company and I think this is where I've seen the most interesting collaboration where founders just like you know so passionate but also ready to be educated.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:28.159
They're ready to be disrupted as the leader who should know it all but in fact like maybe never hired for a designer or never scaled the team before like first time founder.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.400
So for me that is what you don't know.
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:42.480
Exactly exactly I love that I think the you know the best founders hire amazing folks around them and then let go.
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:55.840
Because I think a lot of founders they like they can micromanage and try to like nitpick everything but if you truly hire the right person you can let go and relax.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:14.079
And I think that part of the strategy is building towards that like you don't want to be a founder who's always doing everything but you have to be able to look and say these things I'm good at and these things I'm not good at and I'm gonna hire the people who are the best in the areas that I'm not good at first.
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:17.679
I think there's so much in here for founders.
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:28.320
Is there anything else that you would say that founders should follow in terms of a playbook for how to think about hiring design in AI, this new AI world right now?
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:29.760
Yes, for sure.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:51.920
I think like two things that definitely come to mind right away and two things that are unfortunately kind of absent in our market thing number one is sure you should follow your instincts and trust your leadership team to make the right hire but I think what I wish to see more in the market is trust in your recruitment partner.
00:42:52.159 --> 00:43:13.519
Because it's very interesting to observe how so many founders come to me because of my brand and it's not just the brands like you know I'm known because I've worked with all these people I've hired all these people like I've done the work but then they put me in the process and they challenge everything I say and I'm like I'm okay with being challenged but like sometimes it's like I'm not gonna be proving you that I know how to do that.
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:24.480
Like you know some CTOs would say you know how many VPs of design I've heard I'm like I bet not as many as I have you know like we're not gonna be working we're not gonna be doing but that's true.
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.400
I'm like I love it.
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:42.559
You brought me to tell you that it's like what kind and you know and I've worked with some of the most incredible design partners you know there's this incredible uh agency that's called Good Maven.
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:57.280
They operate from London but globally and their founder is the first design recruiter in the London Facebook back in the days office and like she's worked there for so many years absolutely incredible founder and design recruiter.
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:08.800
And we worked on so many gigs together Last year and still, like, you know, I thought it was just me problem, but like sometimes, like, still, you know, there's not enough trust in our judgment.
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:12.400
And like, my only role is to hire people for design roles.
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:14.480
Like, you know, I've done a lot of it.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:16.400
So I would love to see that more.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:38.639
And it's maybe like a shift in the mindset, even because recruitment used to be so just a service provider, but now with AI as well, with like these emailing and messaging AI tools that, like, you know, kind of kill this personal touch, recruiters with strong network, like this is the best asset you can really get into your pipeline.
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:40.559
You know, like they will bring you talent.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:46.000
I think that, you know, you and I have reached the place where we don't need to prove anymore.
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:47.519
We've proven ourselves.
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:48.000
Oh, yeah.
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:52.159
And so when someone comes in and they're like, prove yourself again, you're like, no, no, no, no.
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:53.280
We've done that.
00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:55.679
I don't need to prove myself to you.
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.960
If it if I do, then this is the wrong relationship.
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.000
But I I think that you you do reach that point.
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:03.440
So I I hear you on that.
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:04.000
All right.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:05.760
Any other any other tidbits?
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:06.239
Yeah.
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:12.320
And I think the second one, like with AI specifically, I think, and this is something that I really like.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.639
I wish that would reach many people.
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:19.519
It's like, yes, it is important that the person is like curious about AI.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:25.599
And I don't see the reason why a designer cannot purchase themselves like a tool and play around.
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:30.320
Like, I've played with every prototype and tool there is, and I'm not a designer, you know.
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:33.679
So like when people say I haven't tried, I'm like, well, you should, you know.
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.840
But at the same time, I still believe that like AI is just a tool.
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:41.199
So like you should be focusing on hiring a very strong designer.
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:46.000
And a very strong designer for a company is very different from a very strong designer from B company.
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:46.559
What do you need?
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:48.239
Do you need an analytical designer?
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:49.599
Do you need a very visual designer?
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:51.280
Do you need like a T-shaped designer?
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:55.119
Like, I don't like that companies stop talking about T-shaped profiles.
00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:00.000
Like, there are T-shaped profiles, you know, and people have tried many things.
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:04.480
And so I think, like, yes, it's a it's a hype, it's a vibe, you know.
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:08.079
Oh, yeah, have you vibe coded uh with lovable?
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:08.880
Sure.
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:14.559
But then focus on on important things, you know, like can you build hypotheses?
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:16.719
Do you know how to talk to users?
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:20.960
Sure, you can run the research through the tool, but do you understand the insights?
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.039
Do you understand what those insights mean?
00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:29.519
What are the so what's of the insights, you know, like the basic things that make or break your design?
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:32.800
And so I think that is what I keep on telling all the founders.
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:34.480
I'm like, sure, we can play around.
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:36.960
I can bring you a couple of AI native profiles.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:44.000
And once you understand that it doesn't make much difference, can we focus on all profiles and you know work with everyone?
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:49.440
Because you need a strong designer and they can learn it on the go because designers can learn absolutely everything.
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:54.400
That is the one thing that I've seen in all designers.
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:58.719
We are so immersed in creation.
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:01.199
Oh, yeah, that we'll use any tool.
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:03.440
You give us any tool, we're gonna create with it.
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:08.480
Scalpel, like you know, we're gonna go and we're gonna do the clay and make it different.
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:21.199
And and and that used to be Photoshop, then it was what sketch, and then Figma, and now we're like like other tools now in the market space, like that, you know, there's so much out there to use.
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:39.119
And I think no matter what tool you use, the creative mind and the strategy and focusing on the user, like you're saying, and understanding intimate details and empathy and brand, like all of these things are judgment calls that you're making along the way, even when you're using a different tool.
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:39.599
Exactly.
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.480
So I love that you stated that people do forget, they're like, oh, you could just use, you could just vibe design or vibe code this thing.
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:52.000
It's like, well, actually, it required uh 200 judgment calls along the way that you didn't see.
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:59.599
And maybe those judgment calls are made faster because in there, you know, you're more efficient, but they're still there and they're still needed.
00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:04.719
And also to add to that, it's just like, I know, I love that people say, Oh, you can vibe code so fast.
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.039
True, but like it doesn't mean it's good.
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:08.960
Yes, absolutely.
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:09.840
Absolutely.
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:15.039
Taste and quality, you know, you have to have this taste.
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:19.519
And unless you've been doing it for a while, you cannot do that.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:25.440
And like what, we're gonna end up with the same designs in five years because designers are not creating new design systems anymore.
00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:27.360
Like, I don't want to live in that world, you know.
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:32.320
No, not no who wants to live in the world where everything's the same.
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:34.719
That would be completely boring.
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:36.239
How sad would that be?
00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:37.199
How sad?
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:41.519
We're gonna we're we're not gonna move into that world because design is here to stay.
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:42.800
I really believe that.
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:45.760
And Lena, this was a wonderful conversation.
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:48.719
It was a breath of fresh air to talk with you.
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:56.880
And I'm looking forward to continuing the conversations together because I can feel already that we're gonna continue to work together.
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:58.480
There's something, there's something there.
