Why Burnout Is a Systemic Issue, Not a Personal Failure

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Welcome back, Amazing Leaders, to another episode of the Building Leadership Community Podcast.
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What if some of the challenges we experience around burnout, capacity and chronic stress are not simply individual problems to solve, but signals that the systems around us need to change?
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Today, we're exploring that question with Sue McKinley, a systems health strategist, keynote speaker, and founder of the Wellness System Listening Project.
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Sue brings more than 20 years of experience leading organizational transformation across corporate, government and international settings.
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Her current work focuses on something she calls the second half of health care, intentionally creating the conditions that support health at the individual, organizational, and community levels.
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Her perspective brings together systems thinking, organizational change, lived experience, and her work.
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With more than 100 families navigating complex chronic illness.
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For leaders, this opens up an important conversation.
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How does the environment we create affect the people working and living in them?
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And what happens when we stop treating burnout, overload, and well-being only as individual responsibilities and begin looking at the systems surrounding people?
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So this conversation gives us an opportunity to think differently about health, leadership capacity and the conditions people need in order to thrive.
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So settle in, get comfortable, and let's get started.
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Roll credits.
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Hello and welcome to Building Leadership Community Podcast.
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I'm your host, Dora Mendez.
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I am the founder and CEO of Coach Dora LLC.
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Our guests will be entrepreneurs, small business owners, and community leaders that drive social impact.
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It can be lonely at the top, but it doesn't have to be.
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Thank you for being here and continuing to build this community with us.
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At Building Leadership Community, we believe that it can be lonely at the top, but it doesn't have to be.
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One of the themes we're exploring today is how leaders can create conditions that help people operate with greater clarity, capacity and sustainability.
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And sometimes that work begins with strengthening the way we lead, communicate, and support the people around us.
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The link is in the description.
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You can get it on our website and our courses tab.
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Coach Dora Mendez.com.
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Leadership transformation is right there for you.
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Let me tell you a little more about today's guest.
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Sue McKinley is a systems health strategist, keynote speaker, and founder of Wellness System Roadmap and the Wellness System Listening Project.
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Her career spans more than 20 years of organizational transformation work across corporate, government, and international settings.
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She has led complex change initiatives involving organizations with more than 3500 employees, and has worked with global and cross-cultural teams in the United States.
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Let me tell you how I met Sue.
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She's a dynamic speaker.
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I saw her in person.
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We shared the stage at DisruptHR DisruptHR is a global TED Talk for the HR community.
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And by.
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When I say HR, I mean human resources.
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I had the pleasure of seeing and witnessing, her approach to wellness and how she delivers that message.
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Her speaking work includes topics such as burnout, sustainable human performance, load and capacity, and rethinking the systems that surround health and work.
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Today, Sue McKinley is here to pour into our community of leaders.
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Welcome, Sue.
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Hi, Sue.
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Hi, Dora.
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It's so good to be with you again.
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Sue, I'm so glad everyone is here.
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I'm so glad you're here.
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I think my audience is going to get so much value.
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And so tell us about your journey.
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Take us through that journey.
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That leadership journey.
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Share the experiences that most shaped the way you think about leadership and systems today.
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Oh, yes.
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So, I followed what I would call a very traditional organizational corporate America leadership path.
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My degree was computer science, and I went straight into consulting, and this was back before Y2K.
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If you're if your listeners remember that.
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So that was back when we were replacing all the critical business functions for organizations in anticipation of the clock, the calendar reading zero zero.
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So there was a, you know, a lot of scurrying all over the world to make sure that that systems continued.
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So, did a lot of, global and, large scale change initiatives.
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And at that time, I was really like I said, following the traditional corporate structure, I was moving up in the ranks, if you will.
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And, then, you know, fast forward a few years.
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My youngest son got sick.
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He woke up one morning, and he was, he had ticks, full body ticks, head, shoulders, knees and toes.
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And, that took me into the health space where I had to relearn almost everything I thought I knew about wellness and, bringing that back into the consulting world.
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I left corporate America, struck out on my own, created my own, firm after, watching his recovery.
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My heart was in a different place.
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And, I founded my company, Wellness System Roadmap.
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And, now I am a leader in a different way.
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And I would say that it's, you know, I was very much a people leader before, and I would say I'm much more in the thought leadership space right now, focused on helping organizations look at these rising rates of modern chronic illness within their own workforce and understand what they can do about that within their organization.
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So I have, natural follow up question, how is your son today?
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He's amazing.
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He spent he just got back.
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He's almost 18.
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He just got back from a 50 day backpacking trip in Alaska.
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In the Arctic Circle.
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He has friends.
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He has a job.
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He gets good grades.
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He's getting ready to go to college.
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He is.
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Oh, that's amazing.
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Oh, my goodness! And it, it really wasn't a foregone conclusion all those years ago.
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He was three when we started this journey.
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So it was, it's been a long road and he's doing amazing.
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Thank you.
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Thank you for sharing that.
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He must be.
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You're a proud mama, and I'm sure that he is a proud son.
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And so, you know, a major part of your work looks into, like, human load, capacity, burnout and the conditions surrounding people.
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And it makes sense, you know, given that you have this personal connection to to health and in your own personal struggles.
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So at the building leadership community, we often say it can be lonely at the top, but it doesn't have to be.
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What role has community played in sustaining you through your own leadership journey, and what have you learned about the kinds of support people need in order to maintain healthy, and effective lives?
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Yeah.
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You know, community is such an important topic, and it's so great that you're bringing this up right now because, yes, of course, as leaders, we need our community.
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But also from the health perspective, what we're seeing are rising rates of loneliness, of isolation.
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And there are very real health consequences to not having community.
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So I would say for myself, the way I think about community and what the role that it plays in my life is that there has to be trust.
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It has to be a trusted community and the outside has to match the inside.
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They, you know, the people that I choose to surround myself with have to match me in my deepest.
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You know who I am, not necessarily who I you know, sometimes we can, show a face as needed to a client, for example, as a consultant, and make sure that we're our most professional selves and so on.
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And that's important.
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But people that that know us and get us, that is what has always made the difference for me, the people that we can laugh about our foibles with, you know, the people that trust that I know my business, that I'm there to do good work and that I will do good work, but that that allow me to be human also.
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That's always been those have always been the communities that I've most resonated.
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So community to you means trusted people who accept you and.
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Gets to know me and and.
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Trust you, you know, so the big thing for you is trust and.
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100 percent.
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And that could be a team, that could be neighbors, that could be, you know, but for you, it's all grounded and rooted in trust.
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Yeah, exactly.
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It is.
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And you know, the thing about trust.
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So the research shows that that it's very difficult to have I'm paraphrasing here, but it's very difficult to have a high performing team if you don't have trust.
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People have to feel like they're, you know, the people have their back and we, you know, we show up better, we perform better.
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It's it supports us in doing our best work.
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Agreed.
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That's great.
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That's a great segue to our, next conversation prompt, which, I would love for you to speak to, you know.
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more about the burnout and the isolation because, you know, part of the genesis of this podcast was my own loneliness.
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I started my own business, and I used to have a team and different departments and an assistant and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and outsource and vendors.
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And then I started the business.
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And then it was kind of me a solopreneur, and it was pretty lonely.
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And, I, I said, how do I connect with more people?
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And also I wanted to learn because I don't know.
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There are blind spots..
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I had to shift you know, even though I ran, you know,$100 million budget, you know, organization payroll of 2 billion, you know, I, I, you know, running your own company is different.
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You're like, it's your baby.
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It's a it's a it's different.
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And then I there was blind spot because I had all these teams that I could collaborate with.
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And so can you speak a little bit more about how you break through, like how how do we address that loneliness?
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Well, you know, I think we need to address it.
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I mean, I'm kind of zooming out to the work that I'm doing now, which is really about building health.
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And there are really multiple levels that we're working when we're talking about building communities.
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So there is the community in our home and there's the community in our, you know, social circles.
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And then there's the community in, our work settings.
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And so when we talk about burnout and as it relates to isolation, you know, one of the hardest things is that people feel stressed.
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They feel as though they are working 24 seven.
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There's a cognitive load.
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There are demands in the workplace, things like, you know, the shadow rules that may or may not be what H.R.
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tells us, but we know the you know, we the real real we know what you know what what happens if we don't or what the expectation is.
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So maybe we believe the expectation is we need to return those emails within two hours, even though it's the weekend, or that we need to go to the meetings, even though there really isn't much of an agenda or it's not very productive.
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Or, you know, the there's the shadow organization, for example, where we think that, you know, there is the this is the person that has to sign off, but this is the person that really needs to sign off, and they may or may not look like it on the org chart.
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And what we're seeing is that, you know, these things do all come together because the stress that we're all carrying, because of these demands, we have to have a way to discharge that.
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We have to have a way to set it down.
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Our bodies really weren't designed for stress that never ends.
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Our bodies, in a very biological way, were designed for stress followed by recovery.
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And our modern world does not have that recovery built in in many of these modern work environments that we're working in.
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And so, you know, when we think about about the, you know, stress and burnout that we're all feeling, what are some of the things that we can do that help offset that for us and help us build our own capacity?
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And part of it is those trusted people that we can set it down with, and that allows us to be our full selves and, and trust that that, you know, the work still going to get done and that know us deeply.
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I love that, and I would even take it like a little further about the healthy ways to discharge the stress, because I've seen unhealthy ways like drinking too much, eating too much, smoking too much.
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So what are healthy ways?
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Because like a gym membership is not the answer, right?
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So what are healthier ways that you could recommend?
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Yep. Oh, that's a great question.
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Okay.
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So what the research shows and what and what this is my lived experience as well, is that time in nature is so great for calming the nervous system.
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You know, the thing we have to remember is that these stressors that we're experiencing, they they affect us emotionally in our mind.
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They are also working on our bodies.
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They are hijacking our nervous system.
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And when we go into nature, it's like nature speaks directly right back to our nervous system.
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And tells it it can calm down.
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So by going into nature, we're really working on multiple levels.
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Another thing that we can do to help discharge our stress is to eat good food.
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I call it low drama food.
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It's not the sugar and the caffeine.
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We love those things.
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They have a place, but they again are working on our nervous system.
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So, so much of what we need to do is about calming down that nervous system.
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So, like a super simple tip is eat protein before we have the, caffeine or have the sugar, those things that are, you know, going to work on our body and kind of amp us up a little bit.
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And maybe the third thing that I would say, to help us discharge the stresses, but spend time with those communities, with trusted people, it is so supportive.
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Again, it's that nervous system.
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We, you know, our bodies respond to the people that we're with.
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And when we are with trusted people, it helps regulate our nervous system.
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And especially there's this thing called co-regulating.
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If you're with people who are highly regulated themselves, that can be very calming for your nervous.
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System, I love that.
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Thank you for sharing that.
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You're the second person that told me you have protein before my coffee because I have that habit of like, I need my coffee.
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I can't get through the day, but I like that.
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I like that because it's about balance.
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So that's that's really you're the second person.
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So maybe I should start taking that away.
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So just give it a try.
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I, I think I can handle it.
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I think I can manage that actually, like, Yeah, I could, you know, my, I have my eggs before I drink my coffee.
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You know?
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So, that being said, I just I love that I think people are going to get a lot of value of that.
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And then the nature piece is so important, even for a city girl like me.
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There are spots of nature and, so I just love that.
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So thank you for that.
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So that segways into the next because you gave really concrete examples, evidence based examples of what it means to kind of like discharge that stress and in positive ways and not in the unhealthy.
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I love this no drama food.
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I think that's going to be my new phrase.
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I think I'm stealing that from, you know, drama, food.
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I love it.
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So what?
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So what advice would you give to the next generation of leaders, like, if you could go back and tell your younger self something, what would that be?
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So I'm going to go for this answer.
00:22:38.490 --> 00:22:48.834
I'm going to go into the work setting and I'm going to say make sure you're having the right conversations and that you're working at the right level.
00:22:49.300 --> 00:22:54.271
And what I mean by that is, we always need to be.
00:22:54.271 --> 00:23:01.680
So I was a consultant, and my job was always to go in and help organizations be different in the future by doing things differently now.
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:17.695
And that means we always had to go to root cause there can be this symptom of something or, you know, the problem might look to be one thing on the surface, but we really need to make sure that we're understanding deeply what it is that we're trying to do.
00:23:18.028 --> 00:23:22.433
And that means making sure we're having the right conversations.
00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:29.607
So just always checking in, like, is this really where we should be giving our attention right now?
00:23:29.907 --> 00:23:32.344
And that's often just a gut check kind of thing.
00:23:32.344 --> 00:23:38.383
It's like if I sit back and say like, no, you know, we need to be like this, I think is the real problem.
00:23:38.383 --> 00:23:44.756
So, like, give your energy to what's important, not just what's urgent is another way to think about that.
00:23:44.756 --> 00:23:45.356
I love that.
00:23:45.356 --> 00:23:48.894
So I love this root cause analysis.
00:23:48.894 --> 00:23:50.028
I love this root cause.
00:23:50.028 --> 00:24:12.349
I, I teach a class, I don't know, so if I shared that, I've been teaching as an adjunct professor for 16 years now, and, I often find that students have trouble, figuring out what's relevant.
00:24:14.318 --> 00:24:18.390
And so I have done that kind of, like, root cause analysis.
00:24:18.390 --> 00:24:20.325
I think that's great advice.
00:24:20.325 --> 00:24:22.027
I think that's wonderful advice.
00:24:22.326 --> 00:24:28.500
And it also is you said it very diplomatic diplomatically, but gossip.
00:24:28.666 --> 00:24:29.768
No. Right.
00:24:29.768 --> 00:24:30.969
Conversation.
00:24:31.102 --> 00:24:36.842
Let's not get distracted by gossip because that can be really, really toxic.
00:24:36.875 --> 00:24:38.076
You know.
00:24:40.711 --> 00:24:50.121
Yep. Somebody once said to me that that culture is set by the worst behaviors that an organization will tolerate.
00:24:50.689 --> 00:24:55.227
And I really it that really kind of stuck with me.
00:24:55.227 --> 00:25:11.009
And I think there's a personal version of that as well, which is what you're talking about, which is my own personal culture, how I'm feeling, how I'm showing up that is set by the worst behaviors that I'm it can't be higher than the worst behaviors than I'm willing to tolerate.
00:25:11.276 --> 00:25:16.080
And if I'm buying into gossip that doesn't feel right, that doesn't feel good.
00:25:16.080 --> 00:25:17.516
It might serve a purpose.
00:25:17.516 --> 00:25:36.300
Sometimes we need to blow off steam, but generally speaking, when I show up and I'm really there to solve problems and keep my eyes forward, looking on what I'm, you know, on what I'm there to do when I'm feeling empowered to to do what I'm there to do.
00:25:36.468 --> 00:25:37.701
I don't need the gossip.
00:25:37.801 --> 00:25:46.010
And so it can kind of be a symptom that there is, you know, maybe something a, a conversation that needs to be had.
00:25:46.010 --> 00:25:47.846
But but I agree with you.
00:25:47.846 --> 00:25:48.880
That's a great example.
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:49.346
Gossip.
00:25:49.346 --> 00:25:51.682
It doesn't make anybody right.
00:25:51.883 --> 00:25:54.786
You know, I just have never found it to be very useful for me.
00:25:54.786 --> 00:25:55.653
And in fact, I think it.
00:25:57.221 --> 00:26:01.893
I agree, and I save the gossip for TMZ.
00:26:01.926 --> 00:26:03.094
That's my guilty pleasure.
00:26:03.094 --> 00:26:04.261
I'm not afraid to admit it.
00:26:04.261 --> 00:26:06.330
I watch it, no endorsement.
00:26:06.330 --> 00:26:13.104
But I tell you, my husband can't stand it, because the guy is like,"wah, wah, wah", but that's my guilty pleasure.
00:26:13.104 --> 00:26:14.306
I leave it for that.
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:24.182
So, so you want to tell our audience and our listeners how they can learn more about your work and how they connect with you?
00:26:24.816 --> 00:26:26.217
Yes, absolutely.
00:26:26.550 --> 00:26:39.597
Check out my website, which is WellnessSystemRoadmap(All one word) .com.
00:26:40.332 --> 00:26:53.310
And if you want to reach out to me my email is Sue@WellnessSystemRoadmap.com.
00:26:53.612 --> 00:26:55.680
And I welcome all contacts.
00:26:57.048 --> 00:27:00.317
And can can folks connect with you on LinkedIn? Yes.
00:27:00.317 --> 00:27:04.888
Please reach out to me@SueMcKinley on LinkedIn.
00:27:05.957 --> 00:27:08.792
And I look forward to any and all contact.
00:27:08.792 --> 00:27:10.961
Sue, thank you so much.
00:27:10.961 --> 00:27:18.303
I, I could talk to you all day, but this show isn't about you and I chatting because we could talk, talk, talk, talk, talk to each other.
00:27:18.303 --> 00:27:22.874
It was such a pleasure meeting you, getting to know you, seeing you.
00:27:22.874 --> 00:27:26.044
And then if folks want to see us, we were we were in a reel.
00:27:26.044 --> 00:27:33.718
There's a reel of our DisruptHR They can find it on, my YouTube channel.
00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:36.121
Coach Dora Mendez.
00:27:36.887 --> 00:27:38.088
Or they can find it.
00:27:38.088 --> 00:27:40.157
Where where is this Sue?
00:27:40.157 --> 00:27:41.492
Vimeo? Right.
00:27:42.027 --> 00:27:45.596
You know, but I don't know the link at the top of my head, but I.
00:27:45.797 --> 00:27:48.365
Can see it from DisruptHR DC.
00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:53.538
So we will link it because we happen to be in a trusted community.
00:27:53.538 --> 00:27:54.471
That's how we met.
00:27:54.471 --> 00:28:02.881
We met from being in a trusted community where we felt safe to talk about really edgy topics, right?
00:28:02.881 --> 00:28:03.981
That's the whole thing.
00:28:03.981 --> 00:28:07.018
And so we I met you in community.
00:28:07.419 --> 00:28:16.795
I'm so glad that you followed up when I when I answered the call, when I sent out the call to say, hey, you guys were all wonderful.
00:28:17.095 --> 00:28:18.462
We built a great community.
00:28:18.462 --> 00:28:19.631
Let's keep it going.
00:28:19.631 --> 00:28:20.832
Come on my show.
00:28:20.999 --> 00:28:22.866
And I'm so thankful that you're here.
00:28:22.866 --> 00:28:26.171
I think people will really get a lot out of your own personal story.
00:28:26.538 --> 00:28:28.740
And also the wonderful advice you gave.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:38.916
So I'm going to ask you to hold on, while I, so that we can debrief, after my closing remarks.
00:28:39.451 --> 00:28:45.056
So. So thank you so much, for answering the call and for being here.
00:28:45.355 --> 00:28:47.025
Dora, I think you're wonderful.
00:28:47.025 --> 00:28:49.160
And I'm so glad to be with you here today.
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:53.498
And I just really, you make it such a great space.
00:28:53.698 --> 00:28:57.434
And what you're doing for leaders is fabulous.
00:28:57.434 --> 00:29:05.943
And I just know so many people are learning and benefiting from what you're offering and not just what you're offering the way you're offering it.
00:29:06.711 --> 00:29:07.278
Thank you.
00:29:07.278 --> 00:29:10.548
Sue, I'll see you in the green room.
00:29:11.516 --> 00:29:14.752
You've been listening to Building Leadership Community.
00:29:15.053 --> 00:29:17.387
Watch on YouTube@CoachDoraM.
00:29:17.387 --> 00:29:24.461
Listen, wherever you get your podcasts, follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube @CoachDoraM.
00:29:24.461 --> 00:29:28.199
Visit me on the web at CoachDoraMendez.com.
00:29:28.199 --> 00:29:31.669
Hosted by me, Dora Mendez.
00:29:32.971 --> 00:29:36.641
Produced by Dora Mendez and Dylan Rogers.
00:29:37.142 --> 00:29:40.811
Graphics, editing, and sound mixing by Dylan Rogers.