Breakfast... with Shannon

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Welcome to Breakfast in Hell. My guest this week is Shannon.
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Shannon grew up in New York with parents who were active, fervent,
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even ardent in their specific brand of evangelical Christianity, which
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included a great deal of prophecy and prediction regarding the
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return of Jesus and a topic we've covered here before,
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the Rapture. Along with trying to grapple with those extreme
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extra biblical, anxiety inducing ideas, she found several different church
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homes over the course of her childhood. During this time,
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she experiences what she now realizes were patterns in church
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culture that were extremely toxic, and those patterns extended well
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past the church walls. As Shannon found a job in
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Christian radio, doing something she loved and finding her passion
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in the process, she started to experience some of the
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same unfortunate byproducts of evangelical culture parachurch organizations that are
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an extension of the church's teachings on patriarchy, or as
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the church would say, male headship. The mistreatment of Shannon
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even extends beyond that, as it takes fit physically moving
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across the country for Shannon to find some semblance of
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peace Shannon is a delight and she speaks from her heart,
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and I believe she's vocalizing some things that many others
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have experienced. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation.
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Here's Shannon. Shannon. I've known you for a few years now,
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but I don't know a lot about your background, where
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you grew up, about faith in your life, So please
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enlighten me.
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So I have to kind of go back to the beginning. So,
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my mom grew up Catholic.
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My dad grew up Catholic as well, but he would
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tell you that when he was, you know, in the Navy,
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that he would get preached to and people would give
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him tracks and he'd rip them up in their face.
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And then one day he, I guess, went to church
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with a friend and got saved, and basically from there
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was just like really on fire for God.
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This is evangelical Christianity.
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Or evangelical Christianity.
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Good stuff, unadulterated.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So.
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My mom met my dad and essentially, as my mom
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will tell it, she being that she grew up Catholic,
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but she also got saved watching Billy Graham on TV
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a teenager, and so she meets my dad, and my
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dad starts taking her to his church, and she sort
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of really gets integrated into this church and they're telling
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my mom, you know, you can't be Catholic. Catholicism is witchcraft.
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They worship idols.
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What kind of church was this? What was the name
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of the if you don't want to say the name
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of the church, the denomination.
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It's so that's that's kind of the thing.
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I know it's called Living Water, but I don't know
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if it's associated with other living Water churches. It's sort
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of charismatic. I mean, they're they're definitely speaking in tongues.
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They're a little bit more you know.
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Gotcha, So charismatic evangelicalism and listen. It was yeah, pretty common,
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not probably as much on Long Island, but here in
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the South. Like the running theme was that Catholics weren't Christians.
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Like that was like an absolute accepted fact when I
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was a kid.
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Yes, and this was during the Jesus Movement of like
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the late seventies, early eighties that timeframe. So my mom
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and dad get engaged. My dad asks for my mom's
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hand in marriage to my grandfather. He says no, essentially
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probably for a variety of reasons, but you know, they're
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not going to get married in the Catholic Church. The
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grandparents and some of my family don't attend their wedding
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like it was a whole thing.
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Wow.
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Yeah, that's that part of the story. It was a
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rocky start in terms of that relationship with my parents
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and my grandparents parents. Yeah, so my grandparents of course,
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then my parents, you know, have me and my grandparents
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want to be really involved. My parents are struggling, struggling financially.
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My grandparents want to help out, so they give up.
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They give us, they give them a place to live,
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they give and it becomes like, well, you know, my
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mom's like, all right, I'm gonna raise my child Catholic,
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but my dad is not Catholic and he so growing up,
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I'm receiving sort of two mixed messages.
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You're also at this point, unfortunately like this weird bargaining chip.
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Yeah.
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Well yeah, me and my sister, she is four years
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younger than me, so we're My grandparents were really like
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parents to us, So we had two sets of parents
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and sort of two different belief systems. My parents are
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raising us in the Catholic Church, but my mom and
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Dad are really preaching the Bible to us. You know,
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we're listening to a lot of Christian music. My parents
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loved Keith Green like that was absolutely grew up and
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Keith Green amy Grant all that. My parents still brought
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me to like church services and stuff that were more
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evangelical charismatic, like tent revival stuff and so yeah, and
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my and my grandfather was big on he was He
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was very strict Catholic and as a result, my my uncle,
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my aunt, my grandmother were also very very strict, where
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like he'd be like, you cannot miss a day of Mass.
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He's like when I was a child, even when I
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was sick, I was going to Mass. That was very
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important to them. I was not baptized until I was
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two or two and a half and eight. My grandparents
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insisted on it. Of course, knowing in the Catholic Church,
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like baptism is a huge part of it because there
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is like this underlying well it's it's actually not underlying.
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It is literally like a thing that you don't go
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to heaven unless you're baptized.
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It's a sacrament of the it is literally a sacrament. Yes,
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so I received all my sacraments in the Catholic Church.
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Yeah. Yeah, So this this last year entire childhood, this
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like this pull and push between these two very distinct
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versions of Christianity.
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Oh yeah, I would. So I was going to a
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Catholic school as well, and so I was learning all
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all about Catholicism. And then so I would be I
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would go home and my dad would be like, well,
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we don't believe.
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We don't pray to saints.
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We don't pray the rosary, like we don't pray to Mary,
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like the statues are idols and all of this stuff.
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And then I would go to my grandmother's house and
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my grandmother would literally be like, well, you guys are
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reading the Bible and you're taking it literally. We don't
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take it literally. Your dad is wrong. You know, you
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can pray to the saints. And it was just like
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this conflicting messages my whole life. I as a result
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was like, well, I don't know, like I lost something
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one time, and I was like, we know, I'm gonna
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pray to this saint and maybe I'll find it, maybe
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i'll print rosary, maybe I'll be okay. But you know,
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felt like I was also doing something wrong. Because I'm wow.
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So you just felt both all that?
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Like?
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That was my question was did you leave? I mean
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kids are pretty impressionable to the adults that they hold
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in high esteem, and did you leave every conversation going Okay,
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they're right, you know what I mean? Like you went
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to your grandparents' house and you're like, all right, yeah,
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the Saints blah blah blah, and then you done your
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dad you'd be like, no, that's not like. Was that
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how it was in your head as a child?
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Yeah?
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Absolutely, And I was literally like I was a very
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anxious child, you know.
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It was. It was a rough. My parents had their
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own things going on.
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My mom had her own stuff going on, and so
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I was always trying to play peacemaker, even a mon
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like my parents and my grandparents. And so I would
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when I was praying, and I had a mother who
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literally like her prayers over me. She would come to
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bed and she would she had this whole prayer and
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she'd be like praying against every disease and every bad
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thing that could ever happen and all this evil like
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literally every night and I would pray. I would I
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would feel like guilty, but then I would I pray
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for like forgiveness constantly over just the smallest things.
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And then I.
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Would be told, well, you also have to go to
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a priest to ask for forgiveness, and I'm going to
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the priest at Catholic school, you know, when we could
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do that and literally asking for forgiveness for the same things.
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Because my parents were saying, well, you don't need that relationship.
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You have the relationship with Jesus, Like that's fine, you
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talk to Jesus, it's fine.
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Then my grandparents are like, yeah, yeah, it was. It
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was a lot.
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So what was the constant? Like what did you hold true?
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Like what if you can remember? If not, then maybe
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it's not a great question, but like what was the
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const There was a lot of mixed messages and who's right,
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who's wrong? Were there were there any things in faith
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that you were just like these things are definitely true.
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And this is kind of where I'm going to hang
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my hat, so to speak.
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I mean, I will say so I felt like I
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had some sort of relationship.
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With God, okay, with Jesus as a kid, and so
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I felt like above all.
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That, that felt like something important and strong to me.
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I also felt like a lot of the Bible verses
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that I was reading gave me comfort, okay, and so
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for me as a child, I think that that really helped.
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I do kind of feel like now a lot of
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it is just trauma, honestly, Like you know, even some
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of the Bible verses that I would pray felt more like,
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I don't know, the way I would pray them was
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more to keep bad things.
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From happening, if that means yeah exactly.
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So I think that that was probably the constant through
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it all. Like I remember being a kid and taking
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my Bible to school and sitting on the playgrounding my
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Bible and getting made fun of, of course because I
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wasn't playing with the other kids.
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Was that performative? Was that like this is what I
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should do? Or did you like really want to read
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your Bible?
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I don't know. I don't know. I honestly don't know.
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I think part of it was that I was told
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I should be a light to the others, and I
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thought that maybe that would make me a better person.
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I don't perhaps that's what was going on.
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What do you what was your go to like trauma response.
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Have you been able to unpack that where it's like
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my goat does a fight flight fear fallen? You know,
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like what was your go to? It was peacemaker, like
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really just try to be over encouraging and over positive.
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I think so.
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But I was also like fear was heavy, and I
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mean speaking of fear, so I'll bring up two things
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that I want to like highlight for this interview specifically,
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is the fear of hell was strong.
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Yeah, I'm with you as a kid for sure.
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Yeah, it was real strong, I mean. And then the
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second thing the rapture. So my parents were huge on
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we are in the last days and Jesus is going
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to come back, and if you're not right with God,
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you're getting left behind. So the those were the two
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big things I was afraid of, and it was to
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the point that so my parents were always big into that,
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and I like, I remember I actually went home, so
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back my parents are still in New York. I went
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back home to visit them, and I went.
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In this stuff Oh yeah, yes, yes, okay, it's sorry.
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Oh you're fine, Yeah, no, you're fine. Basically, I went
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back home. I found a book that i'd written for
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school when I was probably like three or four. I
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think my mom probably wrote the words so I just
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drew the pictures, okay, and so you know, it's just
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like what I'm doing as a little girl. And then
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at the end I think it it was like I
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was supposed to write what I wanted to be when
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I grew up, and it's funny but not funny. I said, like, well,
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my dad says, we're not going to be here when
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I grow up because I'm going to be in heaven
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because of the rapture. And there was a picture of
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me just like going up to heaven, like being raptured,
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probably a little blue lines underneath.
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Heavens.
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And now so we don't we laugh now, so we
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don't cry exactly, but so you know, I my dad.
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So that's kind of where I'll get into it. Is
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like my parents were big into it, but then they
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were kind of like, I don't want to say, just normal.
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That sounds weird. But for a while we kind of
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had a more normal life. My dad was like, let's
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go on a trip to Costa Rica, Like that sounds
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like a lot, but like for my dad to think
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of anything.
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Else good was tough.
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But then so nine to eleven happens, and my dad
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really shifted gears to become even more focused on what
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he was believing. Yeah, to the point where like it
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was I was going into high school and or I
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was in high school and my friends would come over,
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and every single person that comes over, do you know
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Jesus is your personal Lord and savior? Every friend I had,
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every boyfriend, Oh, I should say, one boyfriend that I
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had was preached to, given given a tract.
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It was.
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Yeah, it was. It was every single person. And it
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kind of continued through my whole life, even in college
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and after college.
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Wow.
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And at the time, like in high school, I was
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into my faith. I was a good kid, Like I
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didn't drink, I didn't party. I you know, I got
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good grades. Like I wasn't in a youth group. Now
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I will say this, So I was going to Catholic church.
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I wasn't going to a non denominational church, right my parents,
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my dad didn't even go to a non denominational.
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Church at that time. It's even though he was really
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into it that.
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He would believe so strongly in the fact that he
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had to witness to everyone. Yeah, it's still your going
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to Catholic church on Sunday, not Evangelic. That's such a
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crazy confluence that is maybe a ven diagram of one, Like,
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I don't like, it's crazy to me. People who are
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that fired up about it's my job to witness to everybody,
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they're also very fired up about church attendance on Sunday morning.
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So that's kind of crazy.
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Exactly.
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Well, my parents believed as long as you have that
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personal faith in Jesus Christ, that it didn't matter as
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much if you were in a church, which is yes,
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it is weird, right, it is weird. But because the
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Bible preaches a lot of that, like you've got to
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be in fellowship and all this stuff, which the Bible does.
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Actually say go to church on Sunday, it doesn't say
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that anywhere. That's that's something that we've really co opted
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into the Christian faith here in America.
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Yeah, exactly, that's true. So I remember, you know, one
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of my best friends coming over and we showed her a.
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Video about Hell and the Last Days.
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It was awful, Like, it was awful, and then I
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prayed the prayer with her. I was fifteen years old probably, yeah,
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so it was it was interesting, right, And then I
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was in a youth group basically a bunch of kids
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in my in my high school grade decided to go
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to this one youth group. We had a Christian friend
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who was going to this one church, so we went
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to her youth group. They they weren't as into the
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rapture and everything like that.
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It's so funny how it.
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Yeah, people kind of pick and choose, right, But my
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dad very very passionate about the rapture.
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I think that that's one of those. And you were
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still in Long Island for all of this. Yes, this
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is all Long Island, Okay.
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Yes.
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In the South, it just permeates the culture a little
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bit more. Whereas you have to actively go to church
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up north. You know, in the South you can just
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wake up out of bed and find yourself in church
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on Sunday. It doesn't matter what you believe. And I
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don't think that that. I remember visiting friends that were
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in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, but we went to the city every
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day for a week, and it was like the church
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was a very intentional part of their life. You had
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to really choose it to do it. But what I'm
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saying all that to say down here, you hell, rapture unavoidable.
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But yeah, there are churches that don't lean as much
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into that and that it's gotta be nice for a
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kid that grew up the way you grew up.
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Well, lots of heathens up north, you know what I'm saying.
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So many godless heathens, you get.
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It, Yeah, exactly.
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Going to that youth group, did that like reinvigorate your
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faith and make you even more steeped in Christian faith?
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Or was this kind of more the beginning of seeing
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maybe everyone's not as out there as I thought. No.
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I think it did reinvigorate my faith because I had
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a couple of friends who were in that church who
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were just really sweet and kind and like had a
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heart for God. I met a couple of really good
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friends during that time, just great people, and they all had,
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you know, hearts for God, and they were really really
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kind and they were they weren't just people who talked
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to the talk, They walked to the walk and they
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were kind. And so I guess I had a good experience,
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because I know not everybody does in youth groups and whatnot.
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In a way, it was like a little bit of
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an escape from my parents.
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Even though it was.
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Well, it was what they wanted me to do, right,
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but it was an escape also from home life and
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to find people who had similar beliefs I think was
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important to me. So I'll just say that, and then
347
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I mean that was where I was more in reduced
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to I guess, uh like Christian music during that time,
349
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because you know, I was getting that.
350
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In Catholic church or Catholic school. Really that was what.
351
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Were you listening to over there? What were some of
352
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your favorite bands?
353
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Third Day was one of my favorites.
354
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Loved one of my.
355
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Favorites, loved Third Day? Was it Jackie Velasquez? Oh?
356
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Yeah?
357
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Who else?
358
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Any of the Uh, let's see, I'm trying to think
359
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of others that I switch Foot, Big Switch Like Switchfoot
360
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was one of my top favorites.
361
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But yeah, and they still were out there doing it.
362
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Oh yeah, I know.
363
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Where does like you seem to be as confident in
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your faith and these existential questions as ever at this
365
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point in your life when you're in high school going
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to this youth group.
367
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Yes, yes, yes, I'm definitely confident. I feel like I'm
368
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on the right path, like I'm doing what I'm supposed
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to be doing. I struggled a little bit once I
370
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got a boyfriend, because then it was like, oh, you know,
371
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you can't. You have to be careful of sexual sin
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and purity culture, really culture that's stepped in there.
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How big of that was emphasized up where you were
374
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going to church? Like? Was this a big did you
375
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guys go to True Love Whites conferences and have the
376
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talks with the girls and guys separate and do all
377
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of that or was it not as big a deal
378
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as it was down here?
379
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Hmm?
380
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I am trying to remember. It was our youth group,
381
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wasn't It wasn't. It wasn't really like that, and it
382
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.319
was interesting. So we did go to a couple of conferences,
383
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but I don't remember them that well, and I don't
384
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remember them emphasizing anything.
385
00:20:59.559 --> 00:20:59.880
To have.
386
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:05.960
And our youth group was both girls and guys, and
387
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we all hung out together, and our youth group leaders
388
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.000
never seemed concerned that anything was gonna happen. To be
389
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:14.519
honest with you, the guys that we had in our
390
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.319
group were actually really sweet gentlemen.
391
00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:22.200
It was actually very healthy.
392
00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.200
Yeah, But it just seems like a pretty healthy youth
393
00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:28.720
group in general. If we're not emphasizing exactly, sure in hell,
394
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.880
and we're not emphasizing this weird double standard for girls
395
00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:34.680
and guys. Seems like there's a lot positive there.
396
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.240
I I think that our youth group leaders really just
397
00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.039
wanted kids to feel loved, and I think they wanted
398
00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:44.359
to I know, right will.
399
00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.920
I think that even my friends in the youth.
400
00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:52.160
Group who were very very like Okay, I'm remembering now
401
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:57.039
that one of my friends, her parents were missionaries her
402
00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:01.680
so she grew up like over sees and was a
403
00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:05.799
missionary her whole life. Just a sweetheart. The two guys
404
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:07.160
that were in our youth group, believe it or not,
405
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:08.599
were from the South. Actually, I think one of them
406
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:10.559
is from North Two of them were from North Carolina.
407
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.839
So they were just sweet gentlemen. They were a little
408
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.640
bit older, but they were they were trustworthy. I don't
409
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.039
like I defintely lucked out. Yes, it was super small,
410
00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.119
because so the town I'm from on Long Island was
411
00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:32.680
also very small. Okay, But they cared about people's hearts,
412
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:34.559
I guess, and they cared about them as people.
413
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:39.640
So I was lucky there. After high school, after youth group.
414
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:45.559
Going into college, I would struggle more. I joined a
415
00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.839
campus crusade for Christ in college. Do you remember those?
416
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:53.160
Oh? My dad was in the Jesus movements. He went
417
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.440
to college in nineteen seventy and he was saved through
418
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.839
a campus crusade for Christ Okay Ministry, and then did
419
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:02.599
worked on the beaches, like in the summer, would walk
420
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.519
Merdle beach and spend the night on the beach and
421
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:08.440
just witness to people. That's how he became a Southern
422
00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:10.799
Baptist pastor. Very familiar. They call it Crewe by the
423
00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:12.599
two thousands, right, Yes.
424
00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:16.720
They did well so well after I went to school.
425
00:23:16.759 --> 00:23:18.960
Because so I was in college from two thousand and
426
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:21.359
three to two thousand and seven, and I believe they
427
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.680
didn't call it crew until maybe two thousand and seven.
428
00:23:24.759 --> 00:23:27.319
On that sounds like right, what like I would I'm
429
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:29.680
a little older than you. I graduated in five and
430
00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:31.839
I feel like that change was happening somewhere in there.
431
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:36.640
That makes somewhere in there, yeah for sure. So in college,
432
00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:38.799
you know, I really wanted to spread my wings a
433
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:42.119
little bit. I started drinking, I started having fun, like
434
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.359
just being a normal kid, like I was out of home.
435
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:47.880
And then when I would go to my Christian group,
436
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.319
we had some very serious, serious people in that group.
437
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:57.400
Like like people that go straight into a super Christian
438
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:01.680
organization in college are very serious people.
439
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:05.359
Yes, and I was not serious enough for a lot
440
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:08.680
of them. A couple of them definitely judged me pretty hard,
441
00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:11.359
and I struggled with that. It was like, oh, well,
442
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:13.960
you're not dressed correctly. These women, they were dressed in
443
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.319
long skirts, they were dressed in like what.
444
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:19.359
I mean.
445
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:21.359
It was only a couple of people. It was Sunny
446
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:24.200
New pultse and Sunny New Pults in New York is
447
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.839
a state school but also known for being a party school.
448
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:29.480
So if you weren't a partier and you were doing
449
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:31.680
the other thing, you were also like very serious about
450
00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:35.799
your studies and maybe you were into whatever organizations you
451
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:39.440
were into. But a couple of the people in my
452
00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:42.799
group were just very very serious, and when I would
453
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:45.440
be partying, they were judging me hard. But then I
454
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.119
would come back the second semester and I'd be like, Okay,
455
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:50.480
now I'm ready to get right with God and I'm
456
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:53.519
not going to sin and I'm not going to party.
457
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:57.960
So I think it was my probably my sophomore year
458
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:01.920
of college, I did Big Break, and that was exactly
459
00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:05.680
what you were talking about, where you go to spring
460
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:10.759
break with a bunch of other college kids. You learn
461
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.200
how to evangelize to kids on the beach. So I
462
00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.240
was out there in Panama.
463
00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:18.440
City Beach, Florida.
464
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.839
I mean they had like MTV was probably there filming,
465
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:25.559
you know, the wet T shirt content contests. We're out there,
466
00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:29.880
I'm literally handing these drawn kids tracks and having like arguments,
467
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.640
not arguments, but really just talking to these kids about Jesus.
468
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:38.519
And I was like when I was passionate. I was passionate,
469
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:41.680
and I knew what I knew and what I believed,
470
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.960
So I was into it at the time.
471
00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:50.559
It was very interesting.
472
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:53.039
We would go out on the beach and then we'd
473
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:55.400
come back and we'd have these afternoon sessions and they
474
00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.440
would be like, we saved a thousand souls today for Jesus,
475
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.519
and you know, a thousand kids prayed this prayer.
476
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:10.000
Yeah, so were you, But you were not questioning that
477
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.880
at the time, Like you were all in on that. Yeah.
478
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:14.680
I was all in on it. Yeah.
479
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:18.440
Well, did you ever feel guilty about not witnessing? Like
480
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:21.359
there's this verse in the Bible about like there's several
481
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:24.759
verses in the Bible about staying silent, but there's a
482
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:27.279
very specific Bible version. I'm losing the reference now, which
483
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:29.519
just means I'm getting old about if someone hears the
484
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:32.440
word of God and they don't receive it, then you
485
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:36.039
are blessed like the person that gives the word yes,
486
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:39.200
and so like I remember when I was in high school,
487
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.400
this guy who came to talk to us about witnessing said,
488
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:45.440
when you witness to someone, they can accept Jesus, which
489
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:48.559
is amazing, and they cannot accept Jesus, which is also
490
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.519
amazing for you. So there's no reason to not do it.
491
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:54.200
And so I would feel guilty about the fact that
492
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.359
I didn't feel like talking to Jesus, talking to people
493
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:01.000
that didn't want to be accosted about Jesus. I felt
494
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:01.880
guilty about that.
495
00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:07.039
Was that, yes, for sure, but it was also I
496
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:10.000
was also told that you're planting a seed. That's right,
497
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.799
right if you if you're sharing actively, even if they're
498
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.559
not hearing and accepting, your planting a seed, and then
499
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:24.559
it's getting their heart ready the person you're getting the
500
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:30.559
soil ready. Exactly, yeah, exactly. So even with my roommate
501
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:34.720
at the time, around the same time period, she would
502
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:37.240
get she was real tired of me talking about Jesus,
503
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:41.839
especially because I had probably partied with her, and then
504
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:43.480
when all of a sudden, I'm like, Okay, now I'm
505
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:47.200
getting into Jesus and I'm not partying anymore. Now she's
506
00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:51.039
I'm driving her crazy by talking about Jesus. And so
507
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.000
there was it was it was interesting.
508
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:57.759
So when where does this Where do we have a
509
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.039
like break like things are it seems like they're going
510
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:02.799
to go another way at some point or at least
511
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:05.039
there's going to be some struggle of belief.
512
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.599
Sure, so I will say this in college and then
513
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:14.680
right after college there was always the struggle of Okay,
514
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.440
I'm just wanting to just have fun, like I'm also
515
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.799
just wanting to be a twenty something. I'm wanting to
516
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:24.400
I'm a very social person.
517
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:25.839
So if people are.
518
00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:27.599
Going out like I want to go out like maybe
519
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:30.759
I want to drink, maybe I want to date people
520
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.640
without feeling like I'm doing something wrong, and I would
521
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.599
be told by my parents and by others that I was.
522
00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:44.160
So in the Book of James, isn't it like you know,
523
00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:47.839
you're sort of like straddling the line or you're straddling
524
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:51.480
the fence. Basically, yes, there's that, and then there's also
525
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:55.599
the verse in revelation with you're not supposed to be lukewarm,
526
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:57.519
which is also taking out of context.
527
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:01.079
So out of context, out of yes.
528
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:01.319
For sure.
529
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:04.759
And so for me, I was like, well, I'm lukewarm.
530
00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:08.920
I'm you know, I'm not committing to one thing or
531
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.400
the other, and so God is upset with me. So
532
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:14.240
I constantly felt that guilt, but.
533
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.000
It would be easy for me to kind of.
534
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:21.559
Like push it aside for a while. Comes to the
535
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:26.640
point where I think, in so this is well after college,
536
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.039
it's about like twenty ten, Like I'd lived in Florida
537
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.079
for a little while and had a boyfriend down there.
538
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:38.920
I went through some really hard things. I had a
539
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:43.000
moment and this is actually I want to share this
540
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:46.440
because this was part of the story that I'll tell after.
541
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:50.599
But when I was in Florida, I went out one night.
542
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:58.240
And I literally felt At the time, I would describe
543
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:02.079
it as like I felt attacked by the devil, like
544
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:09.359
I was living right spiritual warfare. But now I'll see
545
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:14.640
it as more it's it's mental health, right, it's and
546
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:20.160
it's it's me being probably overwhelmed by life, and it's
547
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:23.759
just normal. But I I literally went to this club
548
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:26.680
with some friends, and I went it was my I
549
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.640
was actually my birthday. We were drinking a lot, and
550
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:33.400
we were on top of this rooftop and I look
551
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.839
down and I feel like I hear this voice that
552
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:42.640
says jump, Like I just because I was feeling sad,
553
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:48.039
I was feeling overwhelmed. I was obviously too drunk, and
554
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:54.240
I had this feeling that I should just jump. I
555
00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:58.240
didn't and I didn't attempt it, but it was a
556
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:05.640
strong feeling inside of me. So I definitely, you know,
557
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:09.240
and I'll bring that up as like I've always struggled
558
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:11.880
with mental health, like that was a huge part of
559
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:16.680
my life. I grew up as a child, especially with
560
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:21.519
everything going on with my family wanting to commit suicide
561
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:22.160
as a kid.
562
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:24.279
Did you have a place to talk about this as
563
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:26.640
a kid or was this just a spiritual warfare or
564
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:27.599
Jesus conversation.
565
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:30.400
It's a spiritual warfare, Jesus conversation.
566
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:31.359
He sucks.
567
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:38.599
My parents really didn't believe in therapy. They didn't go
568
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:41.119
to therapy. I mean, and it was also the nineties, and.
569
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:46.839
Yeah, they're combining taboo, yeah, and Christianity, which both told
570
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:47.440
you to pray it.
571
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:51.559
Away exactly, and even during this time around twenty ten,
572
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:55.200
twenty eleven, it's still a little taboo, right, Therapy talk
573
00:31:55.240 --> 00:32:00.480
has not. It's it's become more normal now, you know,
574
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:04.240
the twenty twenties, so pandemic like all of.
575
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.000
That better help in the pandemics and podcast teams have
576
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:08.680
to make it normal, which is.
577
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.839
Great, right for sure, But for so long it was taboo.
578
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:16.000
But I struggled with that. I struggled with thoughts of suicide.
579
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:21.279
I struggled with mental health, and my parents literally would
580
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.359
be like, well, the Bible says be anxious for nothing,
581
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:25.839
and it was a big like be anxious for nothing, like,
582
00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:28.440
you shouldn't be depressed. You're supposed to worship, and that's
583
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:32.359
how you're supposed to lift your heaviness is by worshiping listeners.
584
00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:36.920
Just think about the craziness that's involved. If someone's anxious,
585
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.960
to tell them the word of God, the thing that
586
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.640
they're held up against says to not be anxious. All
587
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:48.319
that does is throw a gasoline on a fire. All
588
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:51.039
that does is give them something else to be anxious about.
589
00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:54.039
Time out. I'm really anxious. The Bible says not to be.
590
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:58.279
Now I'm committing a sin by being anxious it's just
591
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.920
counterintuitive to how to help someone, right, I.
592
00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:06.519
Mean, it just is, it is, for sure, and so
593
00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:11.319
I constantly felt that. But I was also my mom
594
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:16.119
struggled with mental health, anxiety and depression. So out of
595
00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.400
one mouth, she was, Oh, boy, that's tough, you know
596
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.759
what I mean, like struggling. Yeah, and she was very
597
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:27.400
I guess I would say all over the place mentally,
598
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:29.279
and it was really.
599
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:30.200
Tough, like she needed help.
600
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.960
She did, But basically out of the other side of
601
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:38.880
her mouth, she would say, well, be anxious for nothing.
602
00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:40.920
That was like her trying to help me, even though
603
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:42.440
she wasn't showing the same.
604
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:44.039
She's kind of telling herself that too.
605
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:45.359
Yeah, for sure.
606
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:51.799
So fast forward, we're in like twenty eleven, twenty ten,
607
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:56.839
and I had that happen to me, where I'm having
608
00:33:56.839 --> 00:33:59.960
that mental health issue, and I think I was just
609
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:02.200
I was still like in my early twenties, and so
610
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.359
I'm still just struggling, right, I'm struggling. I'm trying to
611
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:08.199
figure out what my purpose is. And for me, the
612
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:09.920
way I do that is, well, I got.
613
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:12.199
To go back to God. Is That's kind of how
614
00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:13.000
it always was for.
615
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:16.000
Me, Right, That's exactly how you've been trained your whole life.
616
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:18.000
I don't know, like, why would you go anywhere else?
617
00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:18.880
That's acts.
618
00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:21.440
I must be on a sinful path.
619
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.400
That's right, because I got to get right with the Lord.
620
00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:25.280
Yeah, I got to get right with the Lord. That's
621
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:27.920
why i'm you know, I'm drinking and obviously like had
622
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:29.400
a thought of suicide because that's the devil.
623
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:30.320
That's right, devil.
624
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:32.519
And I was told, you know, the devil walks around
625
00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:36.880
like a lion, prowling lion waiting to attack. So it's
626
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:42.920
always like I'm attacked, that's right. And so I start.
627
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.920
Reading the Bible. I start literally journaling and reading the
628
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:47.559
Bible every single day.
629
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:51.159
So this is like a constant cycle that you're in
630
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:53.639
since you've been three years old, and think you're going
631
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:56.320
to have them before you're a grown up exactly do
632
00:34:56.440 --> 00:35:01.159
bad super confession syndrome when you're really and then you
633
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:02.760
moved to youth group where it's like I need to
634
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:05.159
be witnessing more, I need to be reading my reading
635
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:07.400
your Bible on the playground. It does seem like we
636
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.719
have a in college. You get you go, I'm not
637
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:12.239
so serious. Now I am serious. Then you're an adult,
638
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.519
it seems like we're in a really constant shame cycle.
639
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:20.719
So for sure, just disguised as spiritual growth and warfare.
640
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:29.559
Oh absolutely, And I became really passionate about God.
641
00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:30.119
Cool.
642
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.559
So I am working so from Florida. I was in
643
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:41.000
the restaurant industry, so I'm working in Florida. The company
644
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:45.559
that I worked for took me out to New York
645
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:47.360
because they were opening a restaurant there. So I'm back
646
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.159
home again, okay, And of course being back home it's
647
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.280
easy because my parents are real into God and they're
648
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:54.920
loving that.
649
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.519
I'm so passionate. Yeah, God, they're loving it. Right. And
650
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.800
there's a Christian video station that we're listening to.
651
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:07.159
It's it's fairly new out on the island, and the
652
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:15.119
pastor at that station is talking every day about repentance and.
653
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:16.679
All this stuff.
654
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:20.320
So he has a church and it's about probably forty
655
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:23.000
minutes from us, and he's going to have a tent revival.
656
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:26.400
So we decide to go to it. And it's like
657
00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:29.719
a week long thing, like these tent revivals are a weekly.
658
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.239
Oh listen, they're serious.
659
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:36.119
They're serious, you know. I go with my sister, I
660
00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:39.320
go with my mom. We like go up to the front,
661
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.400
like people are praying over me, like prophesying over me,
662
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:46.559
like you're getting slain in the Holy ghost, like falling
663
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:50.440
over playing in the spirit, you're praying in tongues, all
664
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:58.000
this stuff. I end up meeting the pastor and so
665
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:00.079
I have a background in radio, and so I tell
666
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:03.440
him that, and I ended up getting a job at
667
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:04.239
the radio station.
668
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:04.719
Nice.
669
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:07.320
I end up having my own time slot.
670
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:09.199
You like you like a DJ.
671
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:12.440
I am an afternoon drive DJ.
672
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:13.119
Let's go.
673
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:18.119
There were five stations on Long Islands. Long Island is huge.
674
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:20.440
Did you use your real name or did you use
675
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:23.280
like a fake fun name? You use your name?
676
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:25.960
My last name though now is different than my last
677
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:26.639
name before that.
678
00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:29.039
Okay, I got you. But uh.
679
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.639
Yeah, I use my real name, which wasn't good because
680
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:37.599
I ended up having a couple of stalkers. That's kind
681
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:40.360
of a It was not it was not a great thing.
682
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:45.159
I remember going into his radio, which became a nationally
683
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:48.920
syndicated radio. It started in Greenville. Uh and for the
684
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.360
first time in meeting this guy who was one of
685
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:53.760
the DJs, and then him telling me his real name
686
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:57.360
and me just being floored. And then as I grew up,
687
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:00.360
I realized, Oh, that's probably really really good that you
688
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:03.960
did that, because to be a local radio DJ, you
689
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:06.039
don't want people to look you up. So here's that.
690
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:17.159
Yes. So it was so I get this spot on
691
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:21.480
this radio station. I was actually I felt like I
692
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:24.599
was reaching people and helping people. I was I also
693
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:30.039
found my passion for radio and voice work. I was
694
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.920
also kind of getting on the job training because what
695
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:37.760
was interesting is for it was a radio station. It
696
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:41.960
was like a regular just secular rock station, and there
697
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:46.119
was I believe a DJ or maybe he was a
698
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:49.079
producer who came to our station who was friends with
699
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:52.599
the pastor who actually ended up working with me a
700
00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:55.800
little bit on my voice, which was really really cool.
701
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:00.000
I also had a DJ who I used to listen
702
00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:04.159
to as a kid, also on another just secular station.
703
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:07.000
She'd been a DJ for years, but she kind of
704
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:11.440
got aged out at this point because people just said
705
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:15.079
she was just too old to be on anymore and
706
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:18.280
things were changing in like twenty eleven, twenty twelve, and
707
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:21.199
she came to our station to potentially get a job,
708
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:24.159
and she told me she'd like I heard you and
709
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:26.159
you're awesome, And I was like, this is so cool,
710
00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:28.719
Like that was That was the really cool part of it,
711
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:34.679
That was the really great part of it. But this
712
00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:40.159
is kind of where I think I started to I
713
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:48.079
started my belief started to change. And I would probably
714
00:39:48.679 --> 00:39:51.400
at the time think it was because well, once again
715
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:55.880
living in sin, doing something wrong, too prideful, like you
716
00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:00.159
know anything, and the past or, even the pastor in
717
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:05.800
the radio station. I had approached him with an idea
718
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:07.599
for a show, and it was going to be me
719
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:11.559
and another guy. And I had a feeling.
720
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:13.679
That this other.
721
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:17.639
Because he was a man, he didn't want me working
722
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:21.679
with him. Does that make sense because he felt like,
723
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.800
you know, maybe you guys are going to sin. None
724
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:27.599
of that was going on. I just wanted to work
725
00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:30.039
with him because he was talented. I was talented, and
726
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:32.519
we had a really good idea for a show to
727
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:36.199
reach more of the youth. And speaking of youth, at
728
00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:38.880
the time, I was also over at his church helping
729
00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:41.000
with his youth group. I was actually there talking to
730
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:43.559
the kids. Like I was sharing about my mental health,
731
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:45.760
I was seeing though, what these kids were going through.
732
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:50.880
These were kids who were he didn't have dads at home.
733
00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.199
They were kids that were struggling with a lot of stuff.
734
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:59.000
Just normal, normal kids. And like me, I didn't deal
735
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:01.000
with a lot of that growing up. I was sheltered.
736
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:04.320
But to see that with my own eyes, it really did.
737
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.880
It was eye opening to see that what they needed
738
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:11.639
was like they needed people to be real with them.
739
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:13.400
They also didn't need.
740
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:18.280
So when I was there, I was sharing with them
741
00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:21.159
about mental health. I was sharing them about real stuff,
742
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:23.880
and I tried to be real with them and connected
743
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:26.320
to the Bible, but in a real way. And they
744
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:28.960
would bring on some guy, like a dad who was
745
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:31.000
a pastor, and he would get up there and talk
746
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:33.559
about how you shouldn't be listening to secular music, and
747
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:34.199
I'm like, is.
748
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:37.599
That what we need right now? No, these kids don't
749
00:41:37.639 --> 00:41:37.920
need that.
750
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:41.679
And I saw that these kids were going to go
751
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.880
the other way because of that, and a lot of them,
752
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:47.760
you know, I think a couple of them ended up
753
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:51.440
really bad into drugs, jail like stuff like that. Kids
754
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:55.559
were having babies like it was stuff. They needed people
755
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:58.119
to be there and love them and show them realness.
756
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:04.079
So they were kind of getting after me. There was
757
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:07.280
another youth pastor there who was sort of getting after
758
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:09.960
me and being like, we want you up there, just
759
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:12.480
you have to talk about this one lesson. We don't
760
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:15.920
want you to share this other stuff, and now we
761
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:17.639
also want you to help up with Sunday School. And
762
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:21.039
I'm like, what Sunday School? Like, that's not where my
763
00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:22.840
passion is. I want to help these kids.
764
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:26.159
You're starting to see a clear distinction between the thing
765
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:29.440
that actually helps and how you can love these folks
766
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:33.000
well and like use your experience versus what the church
767
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:36.280
as an organization is trying to pigeonhole you into doing
768
00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:41.039
for them for their benefits. And they there's a they're
769
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:42.079
diametrically opposed.
770
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:45.400
They're different, Yes, for sure.
771
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:48.960
There was also a couple of kids who came into
772
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:54.760
that youth group who were not Christians, and I'm seeing
773
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:57.400
how they're struggling, and then I'm seeing there's another kid
774
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.639
who literally is like I think, I'm get I love
775
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:04.320
Jesus though, and then the kids are praying over him
776
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:08.360
about not being gay, and a lot of this is
777
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:12.280
just not sitting right with me right And I end
778
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:19.440
up I started dating someone and that person was the
779
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:23.440
worst person I could ever date in my entire life.
780
00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:26.000
They weren't in the church. Prior to that, I did
781
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:27.840
date someone in the church and he was a he
782
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:29.559
was on he was a drug addict.
783
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:31.239
And that was very bad. That went very badly.
784
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:33.280
But this person was worse.
785
00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:35.960
But this person was worse, and I thought that I
786
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.719
could evangelize him. He sort of manipulated me. He knew
787
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:43.559
I was on a Christian radio station. He took advantage
788
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:50.639
of me. Long story short is it was kind of
789
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:54.840
the catalyst of me leaving the radio station because in
790
00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:02.360
that relationship, I ended up just deciding I didn't want
791
00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:03.840
to believe any of this anymore.
792
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:05.880
I think I was fed up with the fact that.
793
00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:10.960
I, you know, I wanted this spot on the radio
794
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:13.360
station with this I wanted to have a show that
795
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:15.559
would reach the youth. And then I was told like, no,
796
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:17.840
you can't do that, and the pastor is literally looking
797
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:19.199
at me like I'm sinning.
798
00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:25.760
I went to another tent revival right before this, and
799
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:28.719
I had the pastor's wife, now that she knows me,
800
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:34.440
come up to me and say, you've been here before,
801
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:39.400
like kind of like look at me. And it wasn't.
802
00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:43.239
I wanted it to be something that was of God,
803
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:46.639
and what she was telling me was more manipulative. I
804
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:49.320
felt like she just knew who I was and was
805
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:56.519
trying to manipulate me because she knew I had dated
806
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:59.280
someone in the church. There was it was just there
807
00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:04.239
was a lot of drama, and I felt like disappointed
808
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:09.079
in the people that were leading, and I just wanted
809
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:13.039
to reach them as me and I was fed up.
810
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:15.119
I was done, and so I left the radio station.
811
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:19.440
The pastor wouldn't even let me announce my departure. I'd
812
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.800
been there for a year and a half.
813
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:22.199
It was.
814
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:26.440
It really sucked, and I was really angry about it
815
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:29.000
at the time. And I get into this relationship which
816
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:34.519
was very terrible, complete psychological abuse, sexual abuse.
817
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:41.320
I just felt like I needed to I didn't know
818
00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:43.719
what I believed anymore. I guess you would say, Okay,
819
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.039
I do get out of the relationship.
820
00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:49.880
I moved to Colorado, and that's kind of the catalyst
821
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:53.199
of me moving is that relationship. And when I get
822
00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:58.079
to Colorado, I'm trying to get back to that, like, well,
823
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:01.920
maybe I just need to to God. But it's not
824
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:06.519
working this time. Okay, it's and everything I'm listening to
825
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:08.400
and reading, it's just none of it is working.
826
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:09.920
What do you think is different this time?
827
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:15.000
Well, a couple of things. I think the relationship has
828
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:16.239
caused a lot of trauma.
829
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:21.119
Yeah, sounds like I on top of already existing trauma.
830
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:22.199
Yes, exactly.
831
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:25.480
First of all, there was kind of a broken relationship
832
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:29.480
with my parents prior to the radio station, and during
833
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:32.960
the radio station, even during the relationship, my dad was
834
00:46:33.079 --> 00:46:34.519
really pushing.
835
00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:37.320
That the rapture was going to happen. That was twenty twelve.
836
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:39.400
Everyone was talking about that. The mind calendar.
837
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:41.960
Yep, that was a y two K I'm sure was
838
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:43.079
big in your house as well.
839
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.480
That are big, yep, but twenty twelve was different.
840
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:46.920
Yeah.
841
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:55.320
I was even on board at the time, and you know,
842
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.960
of course it doesn't happen, right, And like I think
843
00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:01.039
at the time, I'm like, okay, and I'm like a
844
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:06.840
little disappointed in myself that I've fallen for it. But
845
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.320
that has broken sort of my relationship with my dad
846
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:14.039
even more. And normally I think having that relationship with
847
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:17.559
my parents and their faith in God and everything like
848
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:20.159
that helped my whole life. Right.
849
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:23.920
Yeah, it's kind of a backstop if you ever doubted
850
00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:26.119
you had these two people that I had with these.
851
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:30.079
Two people, Yes, I don't really have that anymore. I
852
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:33.719
moved away, and not only that, but so my sexuality.
853
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:39.039
I'm bisexual, and that was always something that it was
854
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:43.360
underlying for many years. But because of the church and
855
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:46.840
because of everyone saying that, oh well, being gay as
856
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:53.400
a sin, that was not something I wanted to believe
857
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:54.000
I was, so.
858
00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:55.679
I kind of say that out loud as part of
859
00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:59.559
your identity to anyone until you moved to Colorado.
860
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:06.519
Yes, yes so at first. So my prior relationship, the
861
00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:09.280
very bad one that forced me to Colorado was basically
862
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:18.280
he manipulated that aspect of myself and he would basically
863
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.679
make fun of me, and he would tell me, oh,
864
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:21.639
you look like a lesbian.
865
00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:23.079
Why don't you just go be a lesbian?
866
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:23.960
And oh my god.
867
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:26.719
It was very it was he took.
868
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:30.239
Advantage of that right, and it was very horrible. But
869
00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:31.800
when I went to Colorado, I said, you know what,
870
00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:37.079
I want to try to be myself. And I actually
871
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:38.960
had a gay friend who I shared with. I was like,
872
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:41.920
I haven't told anybody this, but like I'm by and
873
00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:45.280
like he knew that, but I didn't tell that many
874
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:48.599
people at the time. I ended up finding someone I
875
00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:52.440
really cared about, a man who ended up dating for
876
00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:59.960
fast forward seven years holy shit, well dated then got engay,
877
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:04.960
then got married, oh okay, and then divorced. Okay, so
878
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:08.320
we're fast forwarding seven years. During that time, I will
879
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:11.440
say it was a relationship that I needed.
880
00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:16.360
Because it was it was normal. Yeah, it was calm.
881
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:20.159
There was not no drama, but you know that's not
882
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:23.239
always the best thing, right. Of course, we had no communication.
883
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:29.159
I was very like not into faith. I was sort
884
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:32.400
of like teetering on maybe I pray, I don't know,
885
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:36.000
Like I was still in that teetering phase, not sure
886
00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:39.400
what I believed, but still kind of holding on to
887
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:43.239
like little fringes of what I believed, if it makes sense.
888
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:45.960
You know, there's a We've talked about this on this
889
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:49.119
podcast before, but like it would be really nice to
890
00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:51.039
be able to still believe some of the things I
891
00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:53.840
believed when I was a kid, Like some of that
892
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:56.000
would be very not now. Some of it was super
893
00:49:56.079 --> 00:50:00.079
damaging and super traumatic and super wrong and exclusive, but
894
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:03.480
there's some fringe stuff that I think you want you
895
00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:06.559
want to want to believe you desperately. It would make
896
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.119
life a lot easier if I had this laid out
897
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:09.960
in this manner for.
898
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:16.360
Me, absolutely, And I'll get to kind of my thoughts
899
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:18.079
on that in a little bit, but I'm going to
900
00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:21.920
finish kind of like up to like closer to now.
901
00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:26.199
But basically, during that time, I just wasn't myself right
902
00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:30.400
and I was just trying to get past the trauma.
903
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:34.960
And that was when I started therapy. During that time awesome,
904
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:40.679
I actually started talking about a lot of these things,
905
00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:44.519
and I started to realize that, I started to realize
906
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:50.000
who I was, and I started to realize what I
907
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:53.159
wanted to believe. There were two things that happened that
908
00:50:53.320 --> 00:50:56.840
really catapulted me into I guess you could say deconstruction
909
00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:02.119
and who I am right now. That would be one.
910
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:07.039
So the man who ended up I dated right before
911
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:11.800
Colorado ended up dying. He got a brain tumor and
912
00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:16.440
he died. He for many years while I was in
913
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:21.239
Colorado in that current relationship, just trying to function. I
914
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:23.440
was very scared. I was very afraid.
915
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:23.800
I was very.
916
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:26.800
Traumatized from that relationship. I was afraid he would come
917
00:51:26.840 --> 00:51:31.719
find me. I was just living in fear. I felt
918
00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:36.079
like I couldn't fully heal or fully be myself. And
919
00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:43.079
once he passed, I felt free.
920
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:45.239
Yeah, he made sense.
921
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:48.079
Did a number on me and other women, and he
922
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:52.159
was just not a good person. So that and then
923
00:51:52.239 --> 00:51:56.960
I think that led me to one more time, try
924
00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:01.880
a church service. It is not really a church service.
925
00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:05.239
It is like a group of Christians at this they're
926
00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:08.039
having like a craft worship night.
927
00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:10.679
So they're crafting and then we're gonna worship.
928
00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:15.239
Yeah, but we're crafting with like we're gonna like take
929
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.320
a Bible verse and we're gonna you know, like write
930
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.679
Bible verse and craft on it. Anyways, so that was
931
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:29.639
I go. And it's this woman, this is post pandemic. Nope,
932
00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:33.360
it's during the pandemic, I believe. Okay, it's like twenty twenty,
933
00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:37.239
probably twenty twenty or end of twenty twenty. And this
934
00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:41.400
woman has gained a following for herself on social media,
935
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:43.039
which I didn't really I didn't know who she was,
936
00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:46.920
but apparently my parents knew who she was. Now. Growing up,
937
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:49.920
I was very pro life and whatnot, and I was
938
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:54.519
still like I'm pro life, sure, like, you know, don't
939
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:58.400
have an abortion, you know, unless it's necessary, like not
940
00:52:58.519 --> 00:53:01.400
your don't like go have a million, you know what
941
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.280
I mean. Like I'm just like kind of like I
942
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:08.480
don't really know where I stand completely yet, but this
943
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:11.239
would sort of catapult me into that. So I'm at
944
00:53:11.239 --> 00:53:15.920
this service and she's literally apparently her thing is like prophesying.
945
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:20.960
But she's also talking about how like she has had
946
00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:25.400
a bunch of abortions, but now she literally goes into
947
00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:29.079
these like dream like states and like sees these children
948
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:33.079
and she knows their names. But she's talking also a
949
00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:37.119
lot about being attacked by the devil and how she
950
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.079
was like and I couldn't move my legs and I
951
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:42.239
had immense pain and it was the devil because he
952
00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:44.599
was trying to stop me, and it was just it
953
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:45.679
felt really.
954
00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:45.920
Off to me.
955
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:48.199
Yeah.
956
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:51.199
We then go and pray, and I'm with a group
957
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:52.639
of these other two women, and she's like, you have
958
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:56.719
to confess your sins to these random strangers. You have
959
00:53:56.760 --> 00:53:57.920
to tell them everything.
960
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:01.559
I mean, like, boy, you found organized religion that's tough
961
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:05.480
over your life. Yeah.
962
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:09.800
So I am like, I feel hesitant, but this woman
963
00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:12.760
is telling me. She's like, I see, I see a
964
00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:14.960
knife in your back and it is the devil. The
965
00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:18.159
devil has a knife in your back. And I'm like, well,
966
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:21.960
you know, I'm I like women, and I don't know
967
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:25.119
if I should be like by and you know, I
968
00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:26.880
think I need to give that up, and like also
969
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:28.920
I don't know, and I'm like I'm I'm like telling
970
00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:30.760
them this up, but I'm feeling great about it. And
971
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:33.559
the other woman in my group is literally having a
972
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:38.280
full on, like she's like screaming, and this is happening
973
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:40.880
in our own little corner, and the organizer is just
974
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:43.679
like over there just hanging out and like done with
975
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:46.639
the whole thing and isn't really coming over to like
976
00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:49.519
maybe support this. And I have to like be there
977
00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:51.159
for this other person that I don't know that's like
978
00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:52.360
screaming and it just.
979
00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:53.280
Feels really weird.
980
00:54:54.840 --> 00:54:58.800
And I go home and I'm thinking about it, and
981
00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:02.920
I guess right after this is when they overturned Roe
982
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:07.880
v Wade And I just have this whole experience with
983
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:11.199
this woman that's like talking about her abortions and all
984
00:55:11.239 --> 00:55:13.440
this stuff, and then I'm having like this just like
985
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:17.840
weird spiritual stuff that I'm just like, I don't know
986
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.599
if I feel real great about any of this, Like
987
00:55:20.679 --> 00:55:22.559
this is I don't want to do this, Like I
988
00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:24.800
don't And was it even right of them to ask
989
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:30.199
me to share my personal stuff with these strangers? Yeah,
990
00:55:30.280 --> 00:55:36.000
Like that's not okay, Like they're not therapists, and so
991
00:55:36.199 --> 00:55:39.159
all this happens. And I'm also questioning my relationship with
992
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:42.519
my husband at the time because he's not super supportive.
993
00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:43.800
I have a.
994
00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:46.239
Business, I have a vintage business. He's not helping me
995
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:48.440
with that. There's just a lot of stuff going on.
996
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:51.000
He won't communicate, he needs a lot of therapy. He's
997
00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:56.360
like just not a healthy person. And I am literally
998
00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:59.199
like suddenly, like something like a light turned on, I think,
999
00:55:59.239 --> 00:56:01.320
and I'm like, roe V.
1000
00:56:01.400 --> 00:56:02.719
Wade was overturned? Are you kidding me?
1001
00:56:02.800 --> 00:56:06.320
Like even when I was quote unquote pro life, and
1002
00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:11.880
I say quote unquote because I always believed that if
1003
00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:14.440
there was an if it was necessary, like you should
1004
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:17.679
be able to have an abortion, like it should always
1005
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:21.480
be accessible to women. And I never believed even when
1006
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:23.840
I was in college, and I would I would literally
1007
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:27.480
do these little we would have like these mock like arguments,
1008
00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:30.000
and we would yes, mock debate, and you would come
1009
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:32.159
up with both sides, and I would always debate, like
1010
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:34.880
the pro life side. But I never believed that roe V.
1011
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:39.199
Wade should be overturned ever, Like I always believed there should.
1012
00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:40.400
Be a choice for women.
1013
00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:43.519
And so this light goes off about that, and I'm
1014
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:47.639
just like, of course we're in like this weird political
1015
00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:53.639
spot in general, and the pandemic has happened, and this
1016
00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:56.920
is like probably end of twenty one and now going
1017
00:56:56.960 --> 00:56:59.880
into twenty two. I can't remember when I got divorced now,
1018
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:03.199
but I suddenly was like, you know what, I need
1019
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:06.119
to do this for myself. I've been going to therapy,
1020
00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:08.440
like I know who I am now. I know I
1021
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:10.840
need to come out to my friends. I need to
1022
00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:13.119
tell them like I am By, this is who I am.
1023
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:16.000
I end up telling my husband I want a divorce.
1024
00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:20.639
We're going through that, and I end up telling him
1025
00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:23.000
that I'm By, that it's not the reason why we're
1026
00:57:23.079 --> 00:57:25.920
getting a divorce, but I I feel.
1027
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:28.079
The need to share your identity. Yeah exactly.
1028
00:57:28.599 --> 00:57:31.760
I tell my best friends and then I call my sister.
1029
00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:34.280
And what's funny is my sister and I have always
1030
00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:37.159
shared like a really good bond. But she's kind of
1031
00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:39.320
had a similar story as me, with like her back
1032
00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:41.280
and forth in terms of belief, and at this point
1033
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:46.320
in her life, she is married and suddenly decides she's
1034
00:57:46.360 --> 00:57:50.880
going to be really Christian. And I tell her I'm By,
1035
00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:53.400
and she tells me, well, God is not the author
1036
00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:56.760
of confusion, And tell you.
1037
00:57:56.719 --> 00:57:58.199
How many number of times I've heard that as a
1038
00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:00.800
wrong reasoning for something.
1039
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:04.559
Yeah, And I'm like, well, and I literally say, well,
1040
00:58:04.599 --> 00:58:06.199
I'm not confused.
1041
00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:07.719
Exactly who I am?
1042
00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:15.599
Great answer exactly And I knew from that point, And
1043
00:58:15.639 --> 00:58:17.559
it's kind of where it catapulted me into where I
1044
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:22.360
am now, Like I didn't really know what I believed anymore,
1045
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:26.119
but I knew who I was and that I was
1046
00:58:26.199 --> 00:58:29.639
going to figure it out. And I end up meeting
1047
00:58:29.960 --> 00:58:34.320
my current significant other, John, and he is an amazing, amazing,
1048
00:58:34.360 --> 00:58:38.360
support portive, loving, wonderful man. And from the beginning we
1049
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:41.719
have honest conversations. I am honest about who I am.
1050
00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:45.559
He supports my sexuality, he just supports me as a
1051
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:48.880
person and a human. And we start talking about religion.
1052
00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:51.719
We have a lot of great conversations about religion and science,
1053
00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:58.320
and he makes me start opening my eyes to a
1054
00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:02.280
lot of things because for so long I was taught
1055
00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:07.039
not to question a lot, to kind of treat the
1056
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:10.360
Bible as like you're supposed to be as a little
1057
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:14.480
child basically, and you're not supposed to really question a
1058
00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:17.559
lot of things, right, But my conversations with John were
1059
00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:22.199
like he'd be like, well, did you know that the
1060
00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:24.760
Bible wasn't written right away? Like it took me some
1061
00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:30.000
time after Jesus died, Yeah, to like hundreds of years,
1062
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:32.360
and I was doing little research, and I guess that
1063
00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:34.079
there are mixed thoughts.
1064
00:59:33.880 --> 00:59:34.440
On that, but.
1065
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:39.000
It was still not written right away, and that the
1066
00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:44.400
Romans documented everything, but they didn't really document anything about
1067
00:59:44.519 --> 00:59:47.440
Jesus per se, and all of these things are like, oh,
1068
00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:49.679
light bulb, light bulb. Like I don't have to take
1069
00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:55.559
the Bible literally, Like I don't have to take it at.
1070
00:59:54.519 --> 00:59:55.960
Face value anymore.
1071
00:59:56.199 --> 01:00:00.840
Like the way he was raised, he was raised in
1072
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:03.440
a very progressive Christian home, like just went to church,
1073
01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:08.039
probably went to a liberal you know, either Methodist or
1074
01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:11.920
Lutheran or like whatever it was church, and just had
1075
01:00:11.920 --> 01:00:14.840
a normal like upbringing and with parents that were teachers
1076
01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:15.559
and liberal.
1077
01:00:15.639 --> 01:00:18.880
And he's from the Midwest where they're not all liberal,
1078
01:00:18.960 --> 01:00:20.840
so he kind of lucked out with that.
1079
01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:26.480
But he has such a very like balanced view of things.
1080
01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:30.440
So I was finally talking to someone where I wasn't
1081
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:34.000
like in fear, like I think for so long I
1082
01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:36.559
was in fear of myself going to hell if I
1083
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.679
believed those things, or other people going to hell, or
1084
01:00:40.119 --> 01:00:43.119
the rapture suddenly happening and me being left behind or
1085
01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:45.320
other people being left behind. But suddenly I was like,
1086
01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:49.840
I don't have to believe this anymore. And we're having
1087
01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:55.719
these discussions about science and I've I've gotten I really
1088
01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:57.880
like watching like videos with like Neil de grasset Ice
1089
01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:06.280
and he's great and learning more about about science and
1090
01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:13.239
how big our universe is. And Carl Sagan the pale
1091
01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:18.400
blue dot and hearing that can I read part of that?
1092
01:01:22.199 --> 01:01:25.719
Look again at that dot, that's here, that's home, that's
1093
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:29.440
us on it. Everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone
1094
01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:32.519
you ever heard of, Every human being whoever was lived
1095
01:01:32.519 --> 01:01:35.880
out their lives, the aggregate of our joy and suffering,
1096
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:42.320
thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter
1097
01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:45.760
and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer
1098
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:50.519
of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love,
1099
01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:55.159
every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every
1100
01:01:55.199 --> 01:02:00.760
teacher of morals, every corrupt, every corrupt politician, every superstar,
1101
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:04.840
every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history
1102
01:02:04.880 --> 01:02:08.519
of our species, lived there on a moat of dust
1103
01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:13.360
suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small
1104
01:02:13.400 --> 01:02:18.199
stage in a vast cosmic arena, and so.
1105
01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:24.199
Thinking about that, well, it's amazingly well written and also
1106
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:28.920
like can be very discouraging or very comforting depending on
1107
01:02:29.159 --> 01:02:31.480
your background and your belief system.
1108
01:02:33.119 --> 01:02:36.400
Yes, and it also makes so much sense that I
1109
01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:41.639
think when I look at when you look at society,
1110
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:50.119
we have almost created a solution for the problem that
1111
01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:52.519
we don't know where we came from, we don't know
1112
01:02:52.559 --> 01:02:56.920
how we were created, and so every religion is sort
1113
01:02:56.960 --> 01:02:59.920
of a way to create order right out of chaos
1114
01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:06.360
and to give each person meaning and that there's beauty
1115
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:09.480
in that, right, But at the same time, there's also
1116
01:03:09.559 --> 01:03:11.440
beauty in the mystery and beauty in.
1117
01:03:11.440 --> 01:03:14.559
The not knowing. And I've found a lot of comfort
1118
01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:15.039
in that.
1119
01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:20.079
I think, like how grand the universe is, and to
1120
01:03:20.119 --> 01:03:23.480
think that, like, we can only see so far, but
1121
01:03:23.599 --> 01:03:27.559
there's actually much more out there that we don't even
1122
01:03:27.679 --> 01:03:31.079
know about. So do we have a small god like
1123
01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:33.719
Carl Sagan even writes further that we have small gods,
1124
01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:35.000
that we want small gods?
1125
01:03:35.360 --> 01:03:37.320
Right, Yeah, absolutely.
1126
01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:39.519
We were even taught in church to believe that God
1127
01:03:39.559 --> 01:03:42.000
was bigger, but somehow we still believe that, like this
1128
01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:47.199
is the only thing he created, that he just took
1129
01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:50.519
a magic wand and creation happened. And we're only like
1130
01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:52.880
ten thousand years old. We're not really billions of years old,
1131
01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:56.960
because he's.
1132
01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:55.880
A small God.
1133
01:03:57.079 --> 01:04:00.119
And I think, in my heart of hearts, if there
1134
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:03.960
is a God, I believe he's loving, and I believe
1135
01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:08.400
that he is science, like I believe that I believe
1136
01:04:08.440 --> 01:04:12.119
in science, and if we want to say that he exists,
1137
01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:16.400
then he exists alongside it. I don't know right now
1138
01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:19.119
what I believe. I really don't and I can't say
1139
01:04:19.159 --> 01:04:21.800
whether I believe that God is real or not. I
1140
01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:24.000
don't know that I believe in Jesus anymore. And I
1141
01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:27.679
struggle there like I struggle with not being able to pray.
1142
01:04:27.719 --> 01:04:31.639
But what I do believe in more than anything is
1143
01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:34.639
myself and who I am. And I believe in my
1144
01:04:34.719 --> 01:04:37.920
own confidence and my own ability to heal, and I
1145
01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:41.239
believe in in my own strength. And I think that
1146
01:04:41.360 --> 01:04:47.480
for so long, the fear just took over and that
1147
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:52.880
was greater than who I was, or who I was
1148
01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:55.079
as a person, Like I was like, well, I gotta
1149
01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:57.000
put all this faith in God, but what about faith
1150
01:04:57.039 --> 01:04:58.519
in myself, which.
1151
01:04:58.639 --> 01:04:59.800
I was taught not to have.
1152
01:05:00.039 --> 01:05:00.599
Yeah, exactly.
1153
01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:05.360
Yeah, And so that's where I land now. And it's
1154
01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:09.159
still a struggle, and I still struggle with my relationship
1155
01:05:09.199 --> 01:05:11.079
with my parents. My dad is still very invested in
1156
01:05:11.079 --> 01:05:15.239
the rapture. And this is a healing journey for me
1157
01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:17.280
to even come on this podcast and talk about it.
1158
01:05:17.320 --> 01:05:20.320
And I don't think they will hear this podcast. I
1159
01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:25.840
don't want them to hear this podcast, but it's it's
1160
01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:28.719
something that I'm learning, Like, I'm learning to set boundaries.
1161
01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:34.159
I'm learning that it's okay to that they're not that
1162
01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:36.360
they still have those beliefs, and that maybe we won't
1163
01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:41.159
always have the same kind of relationship. And I'm learning
1164
01:05:41.199 --> 01:05:43.920
to just trust in myself, if that makes sense.
1165
01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:46.679
That's really good. It feels as though for the first
1166
01:05:46.679 --> 01:05:48.559
time in your life, you're comfortable not knowing.
1167
01:05:49.679 --> 01:05:53.440
Yes, that's right, And I, as I said, like, I
1168
01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:58.679
really do think it is comforting to know that there's
1169
01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:02.400
so much more out there and that I agree are
1170
01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:05.719
just like a pale blue dot. We're literally just this tiny,
1171
01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:07.480
tiny microcosm.
1172
01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:11.679
I couldn't agree more Shannon, this has been great, so
1173
01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:15.639
so good, so well articulated, and I'm happy that you're
1174
01:06:15.639 --> 01:06:18.079
happy now, I really am, and I thanks for coming
1175
01:06:18.079 --> 01:06:18.800
and sharing with me.
1176
01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:22.000
Thank you for having me. This has really been an amazing,
1177
01:06:22.599 --> 01:06:24.039
amazing experience. So thank you.
1178
01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:28.679
I can't thank Shannon enough for coming on the show
1179
01:06:28.719 --> 01:06:31.239
and talking with me. It's clear, like all of us,
1180
01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:34.159
Shannon is still searching, but also that she's more confident
1181
01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:36.559
in her uncertainty than ever, and that's a good thing.
1182
01:06:36.920 --> 01:06:40.000
I think the biggest misconception of millennials in particular that
1183
01:06:40.119 --> 01:06:42.840
leave the evangelical church is that they're selfish or that
1184
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:44.639
they want nothing to do with how they were raised.
1185
01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:47.320
It's far more accurate to say that the opposite is true.
1186
01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:50.719
Church was an important part in Shannon's life, learning through
1187
01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:53.400
her unfortunate experiences that what she was taught was not
1188
01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:57.800
being practiced, well, that's brutal. Shannon. Removing herself from clearly
1189
01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:00.559
toxic belief was the best way passable for her to
1190
01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:03.360
state with her actions that the collective church in her
1191
01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:07.679
experience wasn't fulfilling the ideas they were teaching, and good
1192
01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:10.239
for her. There's actually a story in the Bible where
1193
01:07:10.239 --> 01:07:12.079
the teachers and leaders of the church at the time
1194
01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:14.960
continue to try to question Jesus about what's written in
1195
01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:18.000
the law. Jesus rebukes them by saying something along the
1196
01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:20.519
lines of you honor me with words, but your hearts
1197
01:07:20.559 --> 01:07:23.119
are far from me. The idea of those that claim
1198
01:07:23.199 --> 01:07:25.400
they have a corner on truth and that it's imperative
1199
01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:29.599
you follow that particular interpretation, well that's terrible. But when
1200
01:07:29.639 --> 01:07:32.760
those same people don't follow their own high control demands,
1201
01:07:32.800 --> 01:07:36.199
mistreating others in their wake to devastating traumatic effect, Well
1202
01:07:36.599 --> 01:07:40.280
that's why Shannon's story is so important. It's vital, it's
1203
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:43.440
why we're here. Thanks for listening. Breakfast in Hell is
1204
01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:46.360
produced by Will Cown. It's written and hosted by Daniel Thompson.
1205
01:07:46.440 --> 01:07:48.400
If you enjoy the pod, please do us a favor
1206
01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:50.559
of the rating and review on Apple Podcasts and follow
1207
01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:53.239
us on Instagram at Breakfast in Hell Pod. You can
1208
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:55.559
also join the discussion group on Facebook. It's free and
1209
01:07:55.599 --> 01:07:58.280
the link is in the show notes. If you've got questions, comments,
1210
01:07:58.360 --> 01:08:00.199
or would like to be on the show, DMUs on
1211
01:08:00.239 --> 01:08:02.599
Instagram or send us an email to Breakfast in Hellpod
1212
01:08:02.679 --> 01:08:10.480
at gmail dot com. You're about to hear some ads
1213
01:08:10.599 --> 01:08:13.159
that helped keep the lights on here in the old studio.
1214
01:08:14.360 --> 01:08:18.039
Thanks for listening or don't listen. It's really up to you.
1215
01:08:18.159 --> 01:08:20.199
At this point, it is at the end of the show.
1216
01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:23.520
I mean, you're listening to me Hi. But here they come.
1217
01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:26.960
I promised they're coming. Yep, here they are. Happy Day.