Breakfast… with Dave White (Part 2)

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Welcome to Breakfast and Hell. This week we welcome back
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to the program Dave Whyett's I'm excited to have Dave
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returned to the show to finish his story. You can
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hear his bio and all about his upbringing on our
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part one episode, which originally dropped on July seventh, twenty
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twenty five. While Dave's childhood through his early twenties were
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steeped in evangelicalism, the next thirty years of his life
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are their own journey, and in it we find Dave
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embracing his identity, becoming active in his community, and also
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going through stages of grief from his former identity. He
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leaves the church still loving Jesus. He gets angry at
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the church for not even acknowledging his personhood, and he
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tries to bargain with the church, or, at least, by
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his own admission, tries to fix it for them. He
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becomes completely disillusioned with anyone with a church background, before
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ending up where he is now accepting church folks, whether
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conservative or progressive, for what they are, regardless of how
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unfortunate that might be. He's moved on to trying his
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best to be all the things that make a good
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human being while also accepting that those involved with the
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church aren't going to change. It's a fascinating conversation, and
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Dave is an undeniably gifted communicator and storyteller. It's also
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an encouragement to others that have left the church that
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finding your new normal doesn't happen overnight, that anger is normal,
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that disillusionment is going to happen, and while your past
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demons might never leave you, they don't have to stop
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you from moving forward and being better. I have no
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doubt you'll enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
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Here's Dave, So, Dave, the reason I brought you back,
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aside from just sheer popular demand, is that you walked
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me through your time in evangelicalism. But because of your
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standing in years, you have just as long just as
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long without it. And I can imagine, just knowing how
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I feel, you know, probably seven or eight full years
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removed from evangelicalism, how my i'm in it has absolutely
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like dictated some of my life out of it. I
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can only imagine what that that's been like for you.
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And I know You've got many more stories to tell,
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and I have more to hear, so, uh, we can
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pick up right there. I know that you ended up
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leaving because you know Reagan, Reagan and the church had
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a nice little marriage, and that's when it was just
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kind of not for you. That's kind of where we
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left off and where everyone pick ups fine by me.
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Oh yeah, like you said, I'm one hundred years old,
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and I uh, you know, while while while you kids
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were having you know, your your reliant case and your
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purity rings and your veggie tails and whatever, like I was,
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I was going to gay bars.
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Yeah, so you were living.
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I was out. I was gone. Yeah that's right. And
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and so yeah, if you haven't listened to the first episode, eh,
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it's fine. What happened was briefly fifteen years from childhood
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to my early twenties in the church, and then I
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had to go. And it was I think we leaned
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pretty heavily into the idea of my political you know,
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disenchantment with the church. But it was just as much
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a function of having having to come out.
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Yeah.
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I finally figured it out, right, figure out, Oh you're queer,
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you need to you should go because you don't even
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have to tell them, right, they won't like it when
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they hear it and so you should maybe just leave.
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And this is in the pre You know, so many
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people I talked to that are still an evangelical church
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will very proudly tell me there's a gay couple that
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comes to our church, or there's you know what I mean,
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like there's this one. You know, we have this, we
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have this lesbian couple that come and they sit in
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the front row and you know, they love Jesus. So
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there is this new type of hate in the evangelical church,
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which is correct, that is that is a very service
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level we accept you on our terms kind of thing.
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Your coming out is in the I mean in the
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absolute wheelhouse of being gay, flies in the face of
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everything God is designed, and your your life expectancy is
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shorter because it's all the gay's fault because age like
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you're you're you're coming out in the like I remember
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being nine ten years old and just hearing about the
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godlessness that is gay. So I mean it right, Yeah,
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that's the that's the environment with which you were. You know,
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this is this is in the heyday of the more
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overt hate and so what can you walk me through
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what that was like?
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Bad? Because you were a criminal. I mean, it's really
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difficult to explain to people who are not my age.
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I'm sixty one by the way, Yeah, I mean I
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look so cute from my age, it's so young. There
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there were actual laws that criminalized you as a person, right,
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So it was illegal. For example, I was in Texas.
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It was quite literally illegal to be queer in Texas.
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And that's not just Texas, that's all over the country. Right,
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we're not even talking about, you know, can you bring
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your partner to church with you, or can you get
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married or something like that. On top of it, gay
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men were dropping like flies. This was nineteen nineteen ninety one.
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And so because I spent the eighties deeply closeted and
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not neither touching nor being touched by another human being,
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I stayed safe from HIV. But I learned. I knew,
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I knew what was happening, and I knew what I
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was allowed to do and what I was not allowed
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to do. And so having walking into it with all
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that information that was, you know, developed not by the
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United States government but by queer men for that decade
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coming into the nineties, they taught themselves. They took care
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of each other and coming into that you had to
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be like on your guard all the time, not just culturally,
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but you're very physical being. You know, you were always
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under the cloud of you know, you could die, you
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could you could just die. And there's no treatment, there's
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no medication, there's no cure, there's nothing. So it's funny.
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One of the first things I did not funny, haha,
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But one of the first things I did was upon
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graduating from college, I I became involved at an AIDS
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foundation that was in Dallas. It's called AIDS Services of Dallas.
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So my job as a volunteer was because I sort
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of in my head, I thought, well, this is now
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your community. Like this the community that you thought you
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were a part of, they they do not want you.
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And so you have to go, uh, you have to
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become a part of this new community and and and
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and do your part. Like you've sat on the sidelines
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for ten years trying to figure yourself out in a little,
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you know, rural area in Texas. But now you're in
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a city and this is your life, and you've got
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to take care of yourself and as many other people
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as you can possibly help. My job was to drive
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the van to the food pantry. So like it was
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a big hospice this place, and when I say hospice,
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that's not exactly the right word to use. It was
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a residence facility for people with AIDS, and if they
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had families, then their families lived there with them, and
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so people were in various stages of having hav having
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AIDS from the very like, everything's fine and you're living
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your life and here you are to you're in bed
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all day, you know. It was all that kind of
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all that variation. So my job was to drive the
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van to the food pantry, which was run by I
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think at the time it was known as the Game
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Lesbian Center of Dallas. I don't know what they call
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it now. I'm sure it's the LGBT Center now. But
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they had a food pantry and you got free food.
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And so my job drive the van, carry the groceries
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up to the apartments, you know, one by one. And
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then my job became and this became a really interesting thing,
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drive the children that lived there to the movies on Saturday.
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Oh I love that.
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Yeah. So you had all these kids there whose parents
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had HIV or whose parents were already quite sick, and
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there were about a dozen kids under the age of ten, right, Yeah,
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they're living there with their families, and to get the
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kids out of the parents' hair for an afternoon on Saturday,
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I drove that same van, a big eighteen cedar van
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like this is youth pastor kind of van, right yeah, yeah.
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The benches. It couldn't have been more unsafe, yea.
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Yeah, And I uh would drive these kids to the
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Dollar Theater and sort of occurred to them, like a
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dozen under tens at the movies for about you know.
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It took three hours every Saturday. Uh, So that became
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a thing I was doing. I got involved in act up.
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This all sounds like really good things church churches should
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be doing.
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That was where I met Alonso for the first time.
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Wow yeah, okay, Yeah, my now husband and I met
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at a demonstration introduced by a mutual friend. And he
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has no memory of this, but I I remember it.
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And we literally introduced ourselves to each other, shook hands
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and said good to meet youa and walked away and
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didn't have any other contact for like three or four
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more years.
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Oh okay, we did not re meet. I was about
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to give Alonzo a hard time. You just have a
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really good memory. Yes, basically yeah, yes, yeah, yes, uh and.
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So the uh so Yeah, I was involved in activism,
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and I was involved in volunteering and doing whatever I
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thought I could. I felt like I was playing catch
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up with the queer community because I was because I
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was hiding for for the entire nineteen eighties.
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Do you so just two things? One is you talked
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in the last episode about church being a safe place
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for someone who was still figuring out their sexuality and
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who just you you could just kind of hide in there.
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The how diametrically opposed is it when you realize, hey,
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I'm I'm a queer, I'm a queer man. I like,
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all of a sudden, the church becomes the like an
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immediate villain, you know what I mean? Like you did,
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you said, I don't have to come out.
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Let's let's let's say it right. They were always the villain.
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Yeah that's right, Well you just did. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
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Bruce Willis has been dead all along. Yes, But so
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that you know, to have your safest place a family
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that you know, you didn't have, your family structure at
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home was consistently kind of changing or in and out.
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To have your safest, most consistent place to have been
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the villain all along. Like when you're do like you
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immediately jump into outreach and activism. Is that a product
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of this is how the church should be acting or
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is that a product of I have to do the opposites.
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I have to find something to fill this void.
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It's funny that you asked that, because when you leave
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the church, and again the reason I'm here is I've
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been out of the church for thirty five years. I
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haven't been in a church in thirty five years. Okay,
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Leaving the church is tricky because you carry with you
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all of that stuff. Now, some of the stuff you
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carry with you is is good, right, Like if you
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are a person who when you are a Christian in
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the church and you want to participate in the community
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and you really want to like help people, maybe you
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join Habitat for Humanity and you help people build houses,
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or maybe you have maybe your church has you know,
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uh uh uh, some sort of ministry to you know,
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hungry people or whatever. I mean, most of them don't,
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I think these days, but some of them do. And
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and and if you were doing that, if you were
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already sort of involved as an activist type person on
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that level. It's in you, right, you want to, you
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want to, you want to keep doing things. So so
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all that stuff you carry with you, but you also
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carry with you all of that mess, all of that ugliness,
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and you carry that into your normal life and then
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you get it all over other people who weren't asking
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for it at all. So the the, the the the
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queer activism, I thought, was, you know, a good use
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of my time. And you said the church had become
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a villain. One of the things that Act Up would
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do is very frequently protest at evangelical sponsored you know,
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political events, like I remember the reason I met Alonzo
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duralday as we were both demonstrating outside of a building
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where Jerry Folwell and Pat Robertson and one of the
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Bush's old oldest Bush they were all speaking. They were
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speaking those yeah, yeah, the biggies right. I don't know
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if you've ever seen or photos of Act Up doing
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die insh lying on the ground and you chalk outline
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your body and all that stuff.
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We did that that, Oh, that's fantastic.
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That's a romantic meat way to meet.
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Yeah, come on, better than that. And then he forgot
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all about it. Unbelievable. What a guy.
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I'll make him pay. So so, yeah, like you wind
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up in direct opposition to the people that you thought
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were your your your we call it the church family.
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You thought you thought you thought they were your family,
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and they were you know not. Yeah, and it's it
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was easy for me because I didn't have a biological
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family that were also involved in the church, so there
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wasn't there wasn't a lot of you know, connection other
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than just my presence there. I think it's even harder
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for people who have been raised in the church and
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didn't sort of voluntarily just step into it.
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You didn't have nearly as many strings to cut there.
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My older brother and my younger brother were there, but
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it wasn't like for generations we've been going to this
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same church. You were raised here, and everyone loves you
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and knows your name, and oh, there's something unusual about you.
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We don't know what it is, but we're going to
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pretend it doesn't exist, and there will be this process
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of I watched this happen to other people, right, but
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it happened little by little to me. But I was
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aware that it was happening while it was happening. When
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you're a child, and it starts happening. You don't know
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why you're being treated just a little bit differently than
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other kids, right, It's this process of shunning that takes
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place in increments until finally you realize, Oh, the reason
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they're treating me differently is because they see me before
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I could have even seen myself. You know. There's all
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this talk now, you know, like what happens when you're
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eight year old tells you they're queer, you know, and
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and they're like that that must have been something that
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came from the outside world and infected that kid, and
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it contagious. It's a contagion, right. So, but the deal
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is this, you know, if you're a if you're a
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feminine little boy, everyone else sees it. You don't. You
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don't see it. You just think you're you, that's right.
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And but they'll they'll start acting, you know, differently around you.
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I don't know if you've ever I don't know if
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you've ever seen any old TV specials with the Case family.
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Do you know who they are? No?
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I don't.
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They were huge in the nineteen sixties and into the
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nineteen seventies. There were a big family of singers, and
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they had a show on network television oho their youngest child,
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little boy. The kid's name was Cam. He was very
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ready to be on camera and singing, dancing, you know,
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all that stuff. And every once in a while one
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of the moms would say, like, you know, we don't
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know what to make of Cam, and they would say
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this on camera, Oh my god, yeah, and this would
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wind up on television. Right. So this kid grew up
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not quite understanding himself and having his own family who
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loved him very much and who were you know, very
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visibly and famously connected to each other sort of look
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at him like what is that about that boy? Now?
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So it's so crazy that I mean to interrupt you,
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but that just maybe not to that extent, but maybe
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I mean, when I was in middle school and high
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school in youth group, we did this to kids, right,
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and we and we thought it was really good, like
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we thought it was biblical, like with biblical it was
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good to like, you know, create this line right now,
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that's right, create this weird space until they understand what
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it means to be in the fold. And and it's
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so disgusting to think about, but we did it, like
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I know, we did it, and I noticed.
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Why when you meet queer people they are like cockroaches.
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You cannot crush us. That's because that stuff has been
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happening our entire lives. Good news about cam uh. He
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was the original voice of which mutant turtle one of them.
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Uh gave the voice of one of the I'm talking about.
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This is this is important information for my kids who
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loved the original.
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Rettal teenage mutant Ninja Turtles. He was the voice of
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one of the turtles.
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Turtle.
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He's been a voice actor his entire adult life, written
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a book about the family. We've interviewed him on the
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Linoleum Knife and he's awesome. He lives around here. And
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uh so, anyway, side story about people you've never heard
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of the uh so, where was I with this?
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You were telling you talking about when you're even from
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the time you're a kid, like the person that the
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kid that is a feminine doesn't know.
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And you don't even have to be demonstrably anything. You
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just have to not be the same as correct boys. Yes,
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I had three brothers who were all jocks, not me.
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I identified with Ferdinand the Bull. I wanted to sit in
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the field at the flowers and read my little book,
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you know. And as I said, in the first time
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we did this, and my parents indulged that they let
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it happen. They were strangely cool with their having a
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weirdo child.
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I mean, that's pretty like that's great though, you know
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what I mean. Thank God.
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Unfortunately, it was also a big shock to them when
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I came out in my twenties, and so that was
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a drag having to like walk them through it, you know. Uh,
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but you know, that's that's what happens. I think, you know,
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one of the things I was saying earlier about how
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you carry all that stuff with you is that you
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have to spend a lot of time unlearning the stuff
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that you learned. In that way, it is very much
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like being in alcoholics Anonymous or alan on. You have
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been involved, and I know people recoil when they hear this,
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but you have been involved in a cult, yep, and
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and you have to unlearn the cult like behavior, and
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no matter how cool and progressive and liberal you were
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while you were there. And I always think of myself
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as being like, yeah, man, I was the rebel. I
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was the renegade. I was a lefty, and they didn't
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want me, and I was awesome and they were dumb.
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And I was still a judgmental asshole.
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Yeah yeah, And.
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I was still a know it all, and I was
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still a path I was still pathologically helpful in a
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way that I carry with me thirty five years later,
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all of those things. You may leave the church and
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be gone for three years, five years, seven years, ten years,
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fifteen years, but I'm here to tell you, brothers and
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sisters that thirty five years later, you are on some level,
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not I mean, it's not crushing you, but on some
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level you are still mixed up with and mixed up
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by this stuff. Yeah that they they they like jack
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hammered into your head.
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I can attest to that as someone who's just only
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you know, a half decade to a decade, depending on
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how you define it. I've used the film Inception so
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much more on this podcast than I thought I would.
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But like, there are there are so many damn tops
369
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that you have to stop from spinning, you know what
370
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I mean. Like, there's so many ideas that are the
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firewall of your faith, that have nothing to do with faith,
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that are that are ingrained in you about how you
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treat people, on why you do what you do that
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are just something somebody made up to have power and
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still removed from church as many years as I have,
376
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It's still something you have to It's like learning a
377
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new language, like it really is. It's it's wild or
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unlearning a bad language.
379
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I guess right. I am always confronting, you know, in
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myself these ideas about being very controlling, about knowing what's
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best not just for myself but for everyone around me. Uh,
382
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intervening in in situations that I was not asked to intervene.
383
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This is all. This is all stuff that's real close
384
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to home for me, Dave. I'm just like if I
385
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feel all of this on a very personal level.
386
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Yeah, so you know, and this is this is with
387
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like going to thera therapy and uh, you know, basically
388
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:11.759
divorcing myself from all evangelical culture entirely and being in
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a queer community of people who you know either have
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00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:20.079
also left or who never were involved. I think I
391
00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:25.200
know more atheists now than I do Christians. I'm married
392
00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:30.599
to an atheist. There's this cartoon I saw somewhere. Somebody
393
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.119
draw drew an illustrated cartoon about what it means to
394
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:39.119
try to leave your your all the terrible stuff that
395
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:43.039
you encounter when you go into therapy, right, all the things,
396
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.640
and it's like you bring the guys dragging this bag
397
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full of you know, demons let's call them, that are
398
00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:54.519
fighting inside the bag, and then the bag opens and
399
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:58.839
they're terrifying the person. And then and then the last
400
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:03.680
frame is they're just walking there with you by your side.
401
00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:07.440
Yeah, they're never going away.
402
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:10.880
No, they're never going away. None of that stuff is
403
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.759
ever going away. You are going to constantly be doing
404
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:22.240
this and and and working yourself, working with yourself about yourself,
405
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:30.359
and trying to you know, just be a regular normal person.
406
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:32.240
Sounds so easy.
407
00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:36.160
It is, I suppose it's easy for people who are
408
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:42.920
regular normal people. It doesn't help right now that in
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twenty twenty five we will in a country where the
410
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.119
government actively hates its own citizens and has, you know,
411
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:55.319
for some time on a quiet level, but now doing
412
00:26:55.319 --> 00:27:02.039
it on a very demonstrative level. Everyone around me, everyone
413
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:07.640
I know, has like daily freak out, panic anxiety situations
414
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:12.559
about the state of the United States. And so add
415
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:15.839
that to what you might have already been dealing with
416
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.440
in life, and it's tough out here right now.
417
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.240
Yeah, I think. You know, a thing that I learned
418
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:24.079
a lot in church was like, hey, we hold this
419
00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:26.759
life with an open hand because it's not where our
420
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:29.640
destiny is. You know, that idea of like right now,
421
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.440
like it doesn't matter what happens here, because you have
422
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:34.519
an eternity where it's all going to be reconciled and
423
00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:36.920
figured out. And that is rich coming from the people
424
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:40.160
that definitely got a sure thing in life.
425
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:40.559
You know what I mean?
426
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.680
Like, there are there are a lot of people groups
427
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.440
that aren't you, that not you, Dave, but you these
428
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.359
people that have to hold life with an open hand
429
00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.720
because just as Obertville v. Hodges was put into law,
430
00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:59.960
it turns out that could turn around based on the
431
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.920
whim of someone trying to please an electorate. And that
432
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:08.400
is it's terrifying and sad, and it it flies in
433
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:10.880
the face of progress that I feel like we've made
434
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.359
as someone that doesn't have to endure that type of persecution.
435
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.359
But I will say this before we get to there,
436
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:20.119
because I think we're headed that way. As someone who
437
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:24.799
is clearly pretty raised, pretty anti establishment, raged against the
438
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:28.400
machine punk rock was, you know, was more than happy
439
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.680
to confront you and be different. Uh, and then when
440
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:36.000
you realize that church has demonized the thing that you are,
441
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:39.319
did you did you relish in or take any like
442
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:43.400
pride in just going, hey, I'll be that person, like
443
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:46.279
I'll when it comes to you talking to you as
444
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:48.319
an evangelical like or did you feel like I'm going
445
00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:51.279
to rise above the fray and and show them how
446
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:54.440
how incredibly petty and and hateful they're being.
447
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:58.519
Well, here's another trap that you can fall into. Right,
448
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:05.720
So I spent a good ten fifteen years, let's be generous,
449
00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:11.480
let's say twenty or more, Okay, with the mindset of
450
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:14.240
you know what I'm going to do because I'm so
451
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:22.400
much better and smarter and cooler, yeah, and more thoughtful.
452
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.720
I'm going to help these Christians understand things. Now. I'm
453
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:33.440
going to speak prophetically to the church about the church.
454
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:37.720
So anytime I encountered somebody, you know, I was ready
455
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:42.440
there with the critique. Yeah you were, but not in
456
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:44.480
a way that I considered I'm sure they thought it
457
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:48.119
was an overbearing dick, but like, not in any way
458
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.559
that I considered to be hateful or mean, just smarter
459
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:58.480
and better and cooler and absolutely calmer than they were.
460
00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:02.400
You know, I was going to show them what what
461
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:10.039
should really be happening with them. Here's the problem. Like,
462
00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.759
for a while I was online engaging on like Twitter
463
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:21.680
with other exvangelical you know people, and I see that
464
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:24.960
group of folks that's you know, me and and you
465
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:33.160
and other people trying to decide for the people we
466
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:37.240
left behind what their religion should truly be.
467
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:39.559
Yeah, yeah, I do it all the time, man.
468
00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.359
And here's the here's the crazy part. Right. The Bible
469
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:48.720
is so wild, yeah, and so malleable m hm that
470
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.200
no matter what anyone will will try to tell you,
471
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:58.119
it is a it is a site of confusion and
472
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:04.119
extravagant inter rotation and has been for century upon century
473
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:07.039
upon century, and people will just read that book an
474
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:13.160
the old way they want. And so for one particular
475
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:18.079
denomination right or sect, they will absolutely be certain that
476
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:22.759
women should be silent, and Jesus was a capitalist, and
477
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.799
queer people should be killed. And then there's this other
478
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:29.000
one over here that's like a few miles down the
479
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.559
street where everyone is progressive and you've got a lesbian
480
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:39.640
pastor and they're all they're doing everything the right progressive way, right,
481
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:44.920
and they can all go to the Bible show you
482
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:50.839
why they are right. Yeah, and so none of that
483
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:57.559
shouting matters if you are choosing to be a part
484
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:01.720
of a faith community. All all you're doing is picking
485
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.799
the one that you like the best. Yeah, you're not
486
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:11.079
conducting a you're not conducting a you know, a blind study.
487
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:12.960
Where you test.
488
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:17.519
Yeah, you're not. You are not, you know, the the
489
00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:22.119
King of Theologians, looking for the one that best aligns
490
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:29.200
with the way Christianity ought to truly be enacted and interpreted.
491
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:32.119
You just want what you want, and eventually you're going
492
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:35.640
to find it. Yes, whatever denomination you find that fits
493
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:38.359
you best, it's like trying on a pair of pants.
494
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.359
That's you know it when you feel it, and it's
495
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:44.440
going to be that one that you pick. There might
496
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.160
be some parts of it that you think I don't
497
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:51.079
maybe that's wrong, but in general, I like this. People
498
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:52.200
are nice to meet here.
499
00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:54.039
Yeah.
500
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:58.319
And so if I if I walk up to, you know,
501
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:00.240
a right wing Christian and I say, you know, you're
502
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.720
doing it wrong. You know, Jesus never wanted that, they
503
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:06.640
could just as easily say to me as I would
504
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.680
say to them, Oh did you know Jesus.
505
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:12.200
That's exactly right? Were you there they're gonna everything you
506
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:13.960
just said. If you're going to argue with them, they're
507
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.839
going to be like, aren't you doing the same thing?
508
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:18.240
Are you doing? You're finding the one that fits you,
509
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:19.480
like a pair of pants, a bet, like that's all
510
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:20.759
they're got. That's what's just gonna happen.
511
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:25.200
That's what everyone is doing. And so so when I
512
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:29.640
see progressive religious communities doing what I feel is really
513
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:34.720
good work, I think, yeah, go you guys, Yeah, but
514
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:38.160
I'm not gonna be there with you. I'll be doing
515
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:43.359
this somewhere else with some other people because it's like
516
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:47.519
I'm jumping out of one and landing in another, and
517
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:52.359
it's still kind of all the same. Yeah. The difference,
518
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:56.319
I think is that you know, if you have so,
519
00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.960
I may have misspoken a little bit in episode one
520
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:04.480
when we did this where it seemed like my leaving
521
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:08.039
had more to do with politics and queerness, and it
522
00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:11.320
did that did that did prompt me to leave. But
523
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:14.440
another thing I had to unlearn is how I was
524
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.800
going to deal with this feeling that I had when
525
00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:21.480
I was a kid. I loved Jesus. You know, that
526
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:26.599
wasn't just it wasn't just about rules and order. And stability. Uh,
527
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:30.440
it wasn't just that stuff. I loved Jesus and I
528
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:35.679
believed it and I felt it. You know, if a
529
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.000
prayer didn't get answered, I just thought, well it wasn't
530
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:39.280
the right time. You know.
531
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:40.840
If I think a lot of people were in that boat,
532
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:41.159
I think.
533
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:43.599
It did work out. I was like, oh, God answered
534
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:44.119
my prayer.
535
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:45.760
And I was like, well, guess what.
536
00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:51.119
None of that happened. And so the whole loving Jesus
537
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:55.360
angle of it, it feels weird to call it an angle.
538
00:34:55.400 --> 00:35:00.679
But if I miss anything, I missed that, I missed
539
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:02.119
that feeling. That was a good feeling.
540
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:03.039
It's a good feeling.
541
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:07.360
That was a good feeling. And uh, and so you
542
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:11.840
know I miss I missed like the church pot Look. Yeah,
543
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.039
I sang in the choir as I said when I
544
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:18.159
was early, I said, I said, not the handbelts.
545
00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:20.599
Now, you didn't do the handbelts were too small.
546
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:27.079
We didn't have anything. But I sang because I can
547
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:32.400
halfway sing and and my voice was deeper.
548
00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:35.760
Yeah, bass man, Yeah, I get that.
549
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:40.719
I got that baritone part every time, you know. And
550
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:43.039
that was cool, That felt fun, That was that was
551
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:46.880
that felt good, That felt like loving Jesus singing in
552
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:52.079
the choir. I missed the music. I do not miss
553
00:35:52.119 --> 00:36:01.079
contemporary Christian music, Amy Grant, notwithstanding who said before the Queen. Yeah,
554
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:04.800
but like gospel music. Have you ever heard Ofretha Franklin's
555
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:05.880
amazing Grace album?
556
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:09.960
Oh yeah, so incredible.
557
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:15.920
And somebody wrote those songs. And the person who wrote
558
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:18.679
those songs all, every person who wrote every one of
559
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:21.960
those songs, they felt something ten times more than I
560
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:22.559
ever felt.
561
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:25.239
Yeah, yeah, And.
562
00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:27.159
Those songs moved me to this day.
563
00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:30.719
I love them that it is.
564
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.480
I love the hymn Softly and Tenderly.
565
00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:40.360
One yeah. Absolutely.
566
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:46.639
And there's there's a singer that people don't really have
567
00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:49.639
much connection to anymore. She was a gospel singer and
568
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:53.000
she's alive. She's not dead. She is a gospel singer.
569
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:54.119
One is one.
570
00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:59.159
Her name is Cynthia Clawson. And I don't know if
571
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:01.840
you've ever heard of her or not. She was kind
572
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.679
of big in the seventies when like she sang with
573
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:12.679
like the Gathers, Yeah know them, right, But she was
574
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:18.079
her own creation, right, she's I guess she's in her
575
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:21.239
seventies maybe eighties at this point. I don't hear about
576
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:27.920
her singing or anymore. But I saw her perform in
577
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:31.199
a big church in Dallas in nineteen eighty two, and
578
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:34.760
she came out in this this is long white gown
579
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:38.039
and a white turban on her head, and I thought, oh, hey,
580
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:43.559
our lady, what's your deal? And she sang a variety
581
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:46.800
of songs that were both religious and secular in a
582
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.760
church and I could feel the audience being like, hey, man,
583
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:50.360
what are you doing?
584
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:52.920
Yeah, stop mixing it up.
585
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:57.800
A few years later, she sang softly and tenderly over
586
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:02.119
the closing credits of that acclaimed Academy Award winning film,
587
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:06.280
The Trip to Bountiful. It was the late eighties, and
588
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:10.039
then in the nineties she began singing in gay churches.
589
00:38:10.519 --> 00:38:15.519
Oh boy, and this is a heterosexual, married woman, double
590
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:22.519
award winning Grammy nominationspel singer, like gospel singer, not like
591
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:26.039
cool CCM kind of singer. But she was like, Yeah,
592
00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:28.360
I'm going to sing in the gay church because that's
593
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:31.960
what I'm going to do now, because everybody gets to
594
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.760
have this, this thing that I love, everybody gets to
595
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:39.679
have it. And she got her store, her records taken
596
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:43.519
out of the Christian music stores, and she got ghosted
597
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:47.639
by the Christian music industry, just like that.
598
00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:51.119
Not shocked at all, Yes, heartbreaking, not shocked at all.
599
00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:55.119
She I said earlier. Amy Grant is a real one,
600
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:58.159
Cynthia Claus and you don't know that name, another real one,
601
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:03.119
And that is that's the stuff I miss. I miss
602
00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:08.559
people who like her, who found their way through and
603
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:13.519
never left. You know, I wonder about those people. I
604
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:18.840
wonder how they deal with yeah, all the craziness around them.
605
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:20.679
Well as much as you and I have to deal
606
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:24.840
with what we were a part of. These folks that
607
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.960
are real ones, like I think my parents are really
608
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:32.920
real ones, like legitimately, I've watched them progress and and
609
00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:35.760
make strides, but have remained a part of the church.
610
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:39.239
Folks that are in that boat have to deal with
611
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:45.440
reconciling being real and authentic and loving with what has
612
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:46.760
been done in the name of them.
613
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:50.119
And not being afraid to just let people tell you
614
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:52.920
that you don't belong there anymore that's right, which is
615
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:57.960
what they did. Yeah, so that's what I missed. I missed,
616
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:00.000
I missed the stuff that felt good.
617
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:02.800
But you can still go to this, you can still listen.
618
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:05.119
You could still listen to a hymn if you wanted to, like,
619
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.559
you could still throw on softly into like I like.
620
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:10.519
For me, I just like I liken it too. Like
621
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:14.320
there's something about when a filmmaker just really nails his thesis,
622
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:15.800
do you know what I mean, or her thesis or
623
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.960
their thesis that is like, Man, I don't know if
624
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.239
I agree with you, but I also think you crushed it,
625
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:22.679
you know what I mean? You know, I think you
626
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:27.199
just nailed it. There's something fairly cathartic about seeing someone
627
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:30.920
you know do the thing that means so much to them,
628
00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:34.400
that is moving. It is well with my soul as
629
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:38.599
a phenomenal. I love, love, love that song. I just do.
630
00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:41.599
And so I get that, like I feel that deep
631
00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:46.760
in my in my bones, like this emotional resonance of
632
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.360
reconciliation and redemption that I think all of it. You
633
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:51.360
know that's a Shaw Shank redemption line, but I think
634
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:53.400
that's what we all feel inside of us. Do I
635
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:55.960
believe that? That's probably why I'm still a person of
636
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.880
some somewhat of faith is because of that.
637
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.679
Currently reading a book that was written in the twenties
638
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:09.960
by a French author named George Bernanos Okay now I
639
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:13.079
know if I'm not mistaken, that you have seen the
640
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:17.000
film The Diary of a Country Priest, the prison film.
641
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:20.199
This is the movie we couldn't find to do with
642
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.639
First Reformed. So I've seen First Reform, but we couldn't
643
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:25.199
find a copy out of here, going to do it.
644
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:27.679
Confused by that, and I want to see it. I
645
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:28.880
know where to see Spotty.
646
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:31.159
Yeah, you love that movie, and you love that film.
647
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:34.159
I really love that movie. So The Diary of a
648
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:38.480
Country Priest, a Robert Bursson film from the fifties, was
649
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:41.519
based on a George Bernanos novel called The Diary of
650
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:45.320
a Country Priest. So I'm currently reading another Bernanos novel
651
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:50.639
called Under the Son of Satan, another book about another priest.
652
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:58.079
Bernanos was a very conservative Catholic and he uh had
653
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:04.079
no time for nihilism and you know, people who entertained evil.
654
00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:08.880
So he wrote these books about these tortured, tormented priests
655
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:14.679
who were you know, vessels for holiness. And in this
656
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:20.960
particular book, this is a priest who, in his own words,
657
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:23.519
he lives under the Son of Satan. He lives on
658
00:42:23.559 --> 00:42:29.280
a cursed earth and his job is to be a
659
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:33.880
person that God works through and inasmuch as he does this,
660
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:36.360
he has given the special gift of being able to
661
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:41.400
see into people's souls. The outcome of this sort of
662
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:44.400
gift is not great for some of the people involved.
663
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:50.239
So it's a complex story about you know, how much
664
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.880
do you really want to know? How much do you
665
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:58.000
really want to feel? Yeah, and it was also made
666
00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:02.039
into a film. He's starring Gerard Depardieu as the priest
667
00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:06.639
and uh, that one's on the Criterion channel right now
668
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:12.599
in case it Yeah, Yeah, it is the kind of
669
00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:15.400
book that I find myself drawn to over and over again.
670
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:19.800
I am drawn to these religious authors who deal with
671
00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:25.599
stuff all the time, Walker Percy and Flannery O'Connor and
672
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:32.760
George Bernanos and you know, you name who else. What
673
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:36.800
it is about those books that speak to me is
674
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.159
I think there's a lot of turmoil involved in them,
675
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:46.360
and they remind me of that sort of that constant
676
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:50.199
push and pull, that constant struggle of trying to figure
677
00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:52.559
out who you are and what you believe and what
678
00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:54.719
are you going to do with it in your life.
679
00:43:55.559 --> 00:44:00.559
So yeah, post church, my life is reading books about
680
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:02.639
about this kind of thing.
681
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:05.880
Once again, something you know, I don't know why we
682
00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:08.559
weren't doing while we were in church aside from it
683
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:12.480
was kind of frowned upon. But yeah, no, I'm with you.
684
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:15.400
I've read more books in the last five years than
685
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.239
I read in the previous thirty six. So they don't
686
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:18.559
like it.
687
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:22.599
They're likely when you read books because you start saying things.
688
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:25.400
But it is like you but like you said earlier,
689
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:28.639
there's a lot of groups reading the same book and
690
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:33.360
coming to a very different understanding of that. And you know,
691
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:35.079
for and I'm going to ask you in a second,
692
00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:38.679
but for me, like how small is your almighty God
693
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:44.119
that the possibility that an ancient text written by people
694
00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:48.639
has errors in it? And that changes his almightiness? Like
695
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:50.960
you know what I mean, like for there to be
696
00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:53.599
this wide of discrepancy and everyone goes, well, the you know,
697
00:44:53.679 --> 00:44:55.920
all these folks that say they have the interpretation are
698
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.199
all like, there's not an error in it. If there's
699
00:44:58.239 --> 00:44:59.760
an error in it, then it would all fall apart.
700
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:02.880
Why why would it all fall apart? With an air?
701
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Like I thought, like, if there's something greater than you,
702
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.920
I don't know what that's a problem, but it is
703
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:14.239
a fascinating attempt to control, to control the narrative of
704
00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:16.519
why you should be living a certain way that benefits
705
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:18.559
the folks that are in control. That's the way I've
706
00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:19.320
always taken it.
707
00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:32.639
Yeah, it's it's about having power, yeah, over you.
708
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:35.679
So the better part of that twenty years has spent
709
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.000
trying to dialogue activism. Here's how you should do the thing,
710
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:42.079
and that there's a post. There's a post Dave White
711
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:42.559
after that.
712
00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:46.159
Oh yeah, this is the worst possible version I think of,
713
00:45:49.239 --> 00:45:52.760
where I'm like, you know what, just how about everybody
714
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:53.960
just leave me alone?
715
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:54.760
Leave me alone?
716
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:59.039
Yeah, how about everybody just stop talking to me? Yeah,
717
00:45:58.519 --> 00:46:01.199
and I'll make a do with you. I won't talk
718
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:05.159
to you either, I like, I will stop trying to
719
00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:09.360
fix you, you know, Evangelical Person of the Year twenty
720
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:12.840
twenty five. I will not participate in trying to fix you.
721
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:20.159
I tried, and you don't want it, and and so goodbye,
722
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:22.400
that's goodbye.
723
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:22.519
That's goodbye.
724
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:22.960
Yeah.
725
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:25.239
When I said at the end of the last one
726
00:46:26.119 --> 00:46:28.239
that you don't even want to talk to an evangelical,
727
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:30.639
and I can see why, like, I can see how
728
00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:31.320
we got there.
729
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:33.760
Yeah. Well, and it's and it's for my it's for
730
00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:36.519
my benefit. It's not because they're such you know, uh,
731
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:42.960
terrible people. Individually, A lot of them are really okay, Yeah,
732
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:46.280
it's the structure that's trast evil. You are fighting against
733
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:49.280
a structure when you were fighting against this, you're not
734
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.559
fighting it against an individual person, because then you're just
735
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.079
hurting somebody's feelings, you know. And if they are actively hateful,
736
00:46:56.079 --> 00:46:58.360
then they deserve to have their feelings hurt. But if
737
00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:02.760
they're not, no amount of you talking and talking and
738
00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:07.119
talking and talking and showing and demonstrating, it's almost never
739
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:11.559
gonna work. He does. That's a magazine article about you.
740
00:47:11.559 --> 00:47:13.639
You know. Oh, look you changed this pur They used
741
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:15.559
to be a neo Nazi. You know, they're not anymore
742
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:17.639
because you loved them so much.
743
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:20.800
That's right. Well, that's I was going to ask you, like,
744
00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:23.760
do you think in all those twenty years, let's call it,
745
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:26.480
that you changed minds and hearts? Do you think there's
746
00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:28.320
anybody who is You don't think so at all.
747
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:33.519
No. There were responses like, oh, Dave is crazy and
748
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:39.760
he's a leftist, and you know he's a he's a homosexual,
749
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:43.840
and that is a problem also, So it's not you know,
750
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:47.840
my mind is already in their estimation, my mind has
751
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:51.079
already been taken, like the devil has found home in
752
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:54.679
my heart, and they and that's what they think. And
753
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:58.800
so I can't. I can't fix it. I can't please them.
754
00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:02.760
I can't do anything to make it better for them
755
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:06.679
or me. So now I just don't That just don't mean.
756
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:09.960
That doesn't mean that the thing I said earlier about
757
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:13.039
all the stuff you carry with you, all the emotional stuff,
758
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:15.320
all the ways that you try to control and and
759
00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:18.039
and make people do the things you want them to do,
760
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:21.079
that doesn't mean that has stopped. That means I still
761
00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:22.199
have to keep dealing with that.
762
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:25.119
Yeah, I was gonna say, how does that manifest? How
763
00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:28.840
does that manifest itself in post post COVID day White's life?
764
00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:32.239
Like all the religious the religious trauma that demons that
765
00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:33.199
are still walking there.
766
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:36.320
With you, it's you know, it's an everyday thing. It's
767
00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:38.960
an everyday thing, and you have to you have to
768
00:48:39.079 --> 00:48:41.559
in each individual interaction with another human being, you have
769
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:45.119
to stop and say to yourself, am I trying to
770
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:47.159
benefit in some way from this? Am I trying to
771
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:50.039
control them in some way? Because if I were actively
772
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:54.079
working in an evangelical frame, of mind, I would be
773
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:56.039
trying to be like I'm trying to lead you to
774
00:48:56.119 --> 00:49:01.400
Jesus brother, you know, or whatever. And and and I'm
775
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:03.639
not trying to leave anybody to Jesus anymore. But like
776
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:09.440
what other things am I am? I am I exerting
777
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:15.480
a goofy amount of control over And that is again,
778
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:18.119
it's an everyday thing. You have to make sure that
779
00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:22.320
you're trying to do your best buy other people for them,
780
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:28.000
not for you. And this is yeah, and by the way,
781
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:29.199
constant failure.
782
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:33.280
But like what you're saying, and you know, like the
783
00:49:33.320 --> 00:49:35.840
two things that I find fascinating what you're saying. It's
784
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:39.400
super admirable to like, I think that, you know, there's
785
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:41.920
a lot of illustrations of how like choosing what's best
786
00:49:41.960 --> 00:49:45.880
for you is hardly ever choosing what's just. But I
787
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:49.119
like what you're saying. If you tacked a Bible verse
788
00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:51.480
on at the beginning, in the end and some sort
789
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.480
of story, you would basically be preaching a sermon from church.
790
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:54.920
Right.
791
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:59.199
It's crazy how the thing that you've kind of like made,
792
00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:04.159
the reduction saw us is universal. It's universally the thing
793
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:07.440
that should people should be trying to do in and
794
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:10.440
out of church, in and out of culture, religions or whatever.
795
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:15.599
And so even though you're not telling others that now
796
00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:18.800
as actively, it's still where you landed, which I think
797
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:22.719
it does speak to something that's that's in us. I mean,
798
00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:23.519
I think I'm trying to.
799
00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:26.800
Be a bummer about it now, but people should know
800
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:29.119
that you have an entire life in front of you
801
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:32.800
where you're going to have to each day be like, oh,
802
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:35.760
I was wrong about that, that's right, that and that
803
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:37.920
other thing, and I need to go this, fix this
804
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:40.800
thing that I did wrong and apologize to that person
805
00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:43.360
for not understanding that I was wrong in the first place.
806
00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.000
And then I need to sort of daily guard against
807
00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:52.480
that kind of selfishness and assholishness and self righteousness and obnoxiousness,
808
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:54.519
all of those things that you were taught.
809
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:59.400
Yeah, you need to actually do you actually.
810
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:04.000
Do It's it's it's a very it's Daniel, it's difficult.
811
00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:09.159
Yeah, same same Dave Hard, same of you here. Uh,
812
00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:11.760
let me ask you this. You you say you're married
813
00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:15.119
to an atheist. Would you classify yourself as an atheist?
814
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:17.599
I don't know what I am? I am? I am,
815
00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:20.840
I am? I am that Peanuts character when Charlie Brown
816
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:22.719
goes to camp and he's trying to make friends with
817
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:24.679
other people, and there's that one kid that sits on
818
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:26.400
the bunk and you never see the front of his head.
819
00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:28.119
You just see the back of his head, and every
820
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:30.840
word everything he says is shut up and leave me alone.
821
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:32.320
Yeah, yeah, I am.
822
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.000
I am. Shut up and leave me alone.
823
00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:36.119
You're from the church of shut up and leave me alone.
824
00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:38.599
That's right. First church is shut up and leave me alone.
825
00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:41.360
I'm not holding to you to this in all perpetuity,
826
00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:43.760
but like if you if you just had to place
827
00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:45.679
your money on a square, if there's like an.
828
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:48.880
After nice, wouldn't it be nice? If if there was
829
00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:49.480
a heaven.
830
00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:54.280
Wouldn't it be that be cool, That'd be amazing, it
831
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:54.960
would be great.
832
00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:57.719
And I always say to Alonso. I always say to Alonso,
833
00:51:58.360 --> 00:52:00.639
I don't have to worry about any because I'm going
834
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:01.320
straight to heaven.
835
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:02.960
Yeah, dude.
836
00:52:03.199 --> 00:52:05.880
And he's like, uh huh, fine, you tell yourself that.
837
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:12.079
Oh I'm sorry to inform you because I'm also a universalist.
838
00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:14.320
That's right, you're going straight to heaven too, that's right.
839
00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:15.400
I can't get away from me.
840
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.679
There's all eternity, nothing you can do about it, Alonzo,
841
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:22.039
You're not going to be able to go in the dirt.
842
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:24.760
You've got to come join us in heaven. Sorry, not
843
00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:25.440
so your.
844
00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:27.719
Body gets to become a tree if you really want it.
845
00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:30.679
But it's right, you know you're.
846
00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:34.280
Not gonna want that. You know what's wild is is
847
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:36.880
that David and talking to you for someone that wants
848
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:41.400
people to leave you alone and has done trying to
849
00:52:41.559 --> 00:52:44.480
huff and puff and change people's minds. You're and also
850
00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:46.639
says that your demons are never going to leave. You
851
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:49.239
have some you have some very dark things to say.
852
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:52.719
You're a very hopeful individual of what life looks like.
853
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.360
I am. I think I'm repeating myself, but I'll say
854
00:52:56.360 --> 00:52:58.679
it again. I think it was Graham che the communist,
855
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:04.280
who say pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will. Yeah,
856
00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:06.920
only it's honestly, it's the only way you're going to survive.
857
00:53:07.719 --> 00:53:09.559
I listen, that's the first I've heard that. I don't
858
00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:11.039
think you've said that here, and if you have, I
859
00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:17.679
missed it. I love that. I love that so very much.
860
00:53:18.039 --> 00:53:22.519
If there's so you you know, I you know, obviously
861
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:25.719
I don't have your experience and obviously, I lived a
862
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:30.960
pretty privileged childhood that didn't include alcoholic parents or dealing
863
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:33.519
with the church. Then coming out and have being demonized
864
00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:34.039
by the Church.
865
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:36.280
That's so good as long as you feel guilty about
866
00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:37.719
it now I listen.
867
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.039
I you know, one of the when I used to
868
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.360
teach in a Christian school, even after I stopped going
869
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:48.000
to church, I was still teaching one class, a US
870
00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:50.440
history class in a Christian school, and I would try
871
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:54.519
to explain why as a white persons, as a straight
872
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:58.280
white dude, I should feel bad about so, you know,
873
00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:00.760
things that are going on in in the Book of
874
00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:04.679
Daniel in the Bible, Daniel hears about all the things
875
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:09.199
that his ancestors did, like how they enslaved groups of
876
00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:15.840
people and mass genocide, and he's like, he literally weeps, says,
877
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:18.519
I like takes the burden on him. It's one of
878
00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:22.239
the best passages of the Bible. And it's like Daniel,
879
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:24.760
who is like the best of us, not this Daniel,
880
00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:28.119
that Daniel. You know, if he can do it, you know,
881
00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:30.519
if the guy that shut the line, you know, God
882
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:33.519
shut the lion's mouths to keep from killing. If that
883
00:54:33.639 --> 00:54:37.800
guy can realize you know, what was done by people
884
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:40.639
who had the privilege I had was wrong, and I
885
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:42.760
carry that in order to change it. If he can
886
00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:45.280
do it, I think we can all do it. I
887
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:48.840
say that to say, what, you know, it looks very
888
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:52.360
different to realize that you're gay as an eighteen year
889
00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:55.000
old in the church your whole life now than it
890
00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:59.440
did in the nineteen eighties nineteen nineties. So what is
891
00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:02.320
if you obviously you're not giving advice to people in
892
00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:04.639
the church, you're not in that market anymore. But if
893
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:07.400
you're giving advice to someone who's like a current Dave
894
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:11.800
White at eighteen nineteen, who's anti establishment, found safety, realize
895
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:15.360
that all that's going south, what's that advice look like.
896
00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:22.199
Are you financially dependent on your parents?
897
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:24.320
If so, you laugh, so you don't cry.
898
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:30.119
If so, then get that money for as long as
899
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:35.000
you can, until you're stable and able to attend to yourself,
900
00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:37.920
and then you can come out. I know that's a really,
901
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:41.079
really mercenary thing to say, but back in the day
902
00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:43.559
when it was almost a certainty that you're going to
903
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.920
get rejected and thrown out onto the streets by your family,
904
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:52.360
that was the wisdom that was passed along among queer people. Like,
905
00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:56.880
don't come out until you can take care of yourself financially,
906
00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:03.480
until you have a place to live. Now, the world
907
00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:06.480
is so different now that you know, it's probably not
908
00:56:06.519 --> 00:56:10.880
like that for lots of kids. So kids don't listen
909
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:16.960
to me, don't take my advice. But if you think
910
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:19.199
there's even a hit that you're gonna get cut off,
911
00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:22.599
and if you can take it, if you're tough enough
912
00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:25.519
to take it for a while. And they're like, maybe
913
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:27.559
you're a sophomore in college and you need those last
914
00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:31.119
two years paid for or whatever you could wait.
915
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:33.159
I feel like this is part of the story of Lonza.
916
00:56:33.199 --> 00:56:34.880
Gerraldi told me about how he waited until he was
917
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:35.880
a senior of Vanderbilts.
918
00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:38.239
Oh, yeah, this is this is Alonso and I have
919
00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:41.360
had this discussion. Now. I worked my way through college.
920
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:44.559
My family was poor. That didn't it didn't matter. There
921
00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:47.599
was no money. I got no money from them. But
922
00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:49.559
you know, his parents were paying for college, and he
923
00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:51.800
was like, I'm waiting until I graduate, you know. And
924
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:54.960
he grew up in a nice home. People were nice
925
00:56:55.000 --> 00:56:58.199
to him, They loved each other. They still do. It's nuts.
926
00:56:58.280 --> 00:56:59.960
It's crazy, like I'm in one of those homes.
927
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:06.119
Yeah, but even he was like, yeah, when I graduate,
928
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:07.960
We'll see what happens when I graduate.
929
00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:11.079
And then I'll yeah, all right, last question, Dave, and
930
00:57:11.079 --> 00:57:15.159
then I'll wrap this up things so much? What if
931
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:16.800
you know, I get it, you don't want it this
932
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:19.519
dialogue anymore. But if there are folks, if there are
933
00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:24.000
folks that are not where I am, but are still
934
00:57:24.039 --> 00:57:26.599
going to church every Sunday because they love Jesus and
935
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:31.239
they don't agree with maybe where the church stands on this,
936
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:34.000
they don't agree with what their pastor says or everybody
937
00:57:34.039 --> 00:57:37.880
in the church, but you know, they still this idea
938
00:57:38.119 --> 00:57:42.159
of Jesus on a pedestal as this bastion of goodness
939
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:46.960
and redemption is just and tradition, and their kids are
940
00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:48.840
going to church or whatever, all the reasons that you
941
00:57:48.880 --> 00:57:51.760
go to church that aren't I'm fully boughty in what
942
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:56.000
would you like them to know? Is you know in
943
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:57.880
his playing of terms as possible.
944
00:57:58.239 --> 00:58:03.960
God, I don't know, because again, nineteen ninety is not
945
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:09.559
twenty twenty five. It is. It's a whole different, like
946
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:13.079
boiling pot of evil out there right now. And so
947
00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:17.800
you don't have to get rid of Jesus if you
948
00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:20.440
don't want to. Nobody has to do anything they don't
949
00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:27.400
want to. But you might, you know, you might. Let's
950
00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:30.280
say you have children that you take to church with you.
951
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:35.400
What are those kids learning? Who's talking to your kids
952
00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:37.480
at church? And what are they telling them? Like, what's
953
00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:42.119
the Sunday school teacher saying? Do you know, boy, you
954
00:58:42.159 --> 00:58:45.760
better watch out? That's my advice, you better watch out.
955
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:50.559
Listen my heavingly to get out. And the answer is
956
00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:51.800
get out.
957
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:55.239
Of Sunday School. That's right, This is the the I
958
00:58:55.239 --> 00:58:58.039
would say nine nine point nine percent of the wrong
959
00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:01.199
things I was taught growing up came from outside of
960
00:59:01.239 --> 00:59:07.280
my household, but it was Sunday School. Christian School made
961
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:08.760
little Lingle who wrote a.
962
00:59:11.239 --> 00:59:13.920
Now I'm just blanking on a regal in time, yes
963
00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:17.679
Christian author. Right. She got interviewed once, this was in
964
00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:20.000
the eighties and they asked her, you know, do you
965
00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:22.679
go to church And she's like yes, and and they
966
00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:24.760
said do you take your children? She said, oh no,
967
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:29.599
I would never. Yeah, he said, I don't want my
968
00:59:29.639 --> 00:59:31.639
children subjected to anything that they're going to hear in
969
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:34.400
Sunday School and have to and I have to unteach
970
00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:35.159
them that stuff.
971
00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:40.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah, boiling down big, big faith ideas for
972
00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:45.559
seven year olds. That that's just that with concrete answers.
973
00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:47.480
That's kind of that's where it all happened to me.
974
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:50.920
That's gonna go well school.
975
00:59:51.440 --> 00:59:55.519
Yeah, Dave White, you're a champion. We appreciate you so
976
00:59:55.639 --> 00:59:57.840
much around here. Thanks for coming back and finishing.
977
00:59:58.000 --> 00:59:59.920
Thank you, thank you for having me back. I don't
978
01:00:00.199 --> 01:00:03.599
deserve two episodes, but yeah again, I'm one hundred, so
979
01:00:03.679 --> 01:00:05.519
I've got a lot of lot to say, Dave.
980
01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:08.480
Why Yeah, two episode one per thirty years. That's what
981
01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:13.159
we do around here. I can't thank Dave enough for
982
01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:16.000
joining me this week. Because of Dave's experience both in
983
01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:18.920
and out of church, he helped personify the answer to
984
01:00:18.960 --> 01:00:23.239
the question now what. Dave expertly articulates the difficulties of
985
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:25.400
leaving a faith tradition, as well as how it can
986
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:28.360
be even harder to do with further attachments like family
987
01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:31.840
ties that even predate your own existence. Dave's parents didn't
988
01:00:31.880 --> 01:00:34.440
attend church with him, and he would probably would argue
989
01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:37.000
that as a kid, church was where he was running two,
990
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:39.719
not where he was running from. But for those that
991
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:43.639
have parents, grandparents, or even great grandparents with established presence
992
01:00:43.639 --> 01:00:47.360
in the church, attendance and participation seems like a foregone conclusion,
993
01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:51.039
and if when they're able to extricate themselves, the aimlessness
994
01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:53.559
can be overwhelming. For those that have left the church
995
01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:55.840
or their childhood faith, I can only imagine that they
996
01:00:55.880 --> 01:00:59.440
resonated with at least one stage of Dave's post church journey,
997
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.079
whether the desire to still put Jesus on a pedestal
998
01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:04.360
even while leaving the church, the anger of how the
999
01:01:04.440 --> 01:01:06.800
church was treating you or those around you, even the
1000
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:09.320
desire to fix it, control it, or at least dialogue
1001
01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:11.960
with it to expose the hypocrisy that you personally feel.
1002
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:14.719
I can tell you that all of these things really
1003
01:01:14.840 --> 01:01:17.119
hit home for me. I think you can easily hear
1004
01:01:17.159 --> 01:01:19.880
a man thirty plus years removed from a situation that
1005
01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:22.960
was at worst a cult and at best an unhealthy,
1006
01:01:23.039 --> 01:01:26.159
high control religion saying that your demons never leave, and
1007
01:01:26.199 --> 01:01:28.400
it can be depressing. But if you listen to the
1008
01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:31.440
totality of Dave's story, I think you'll hear quite the opposite.
1009
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:34.679
Dave almost relishes in his understanding of just how terrible
1010
01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:37.000
things can be out there, but also combats it with
1011
01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:40.599
a rational understanding of his opportunity to quiet his demons
1012
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:44.159
by doing things ironically that the church claims they preach,
1013
01:01:44.480 --> 01:01:47.679
loving others, will, helping his community, and living at peace
1014
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:51.079
and contentment. He finds joy in his little rebellions, which
1015
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:53.519
I think is the ultimate testament to a life being
1016
01:01:53.559 --> 01:01:56.320
well lived. He even cracks a wry smile in his
1017
01:01:56.440 --> 01:01:59.199
long shot belief and the possibility of a heaven in
1018
01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:01.280
the face of a church that propagated the message that
1019
01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:04.519
Dave's sexuality was a choice, that his identity was a perversion,
1020
01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:07.559
that who he was was inherently wrong. It's no small
1021
01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:10.360
victory that Dave has found his way to contentment, that
1022
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:13.039
he's found his way to acceptance, that he's found his
1023
01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:16.840
way to hope. Who could ask for more? Thanks for listening.
1024
01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:19.280
Breakfast in Hell is produced by Will Cown is written
1025
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:21.519
and hosted by Daniel Thompson. If you enjoy the pod,
1026
01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:23.360
please do us a favor with a rating and review
1027
01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:26.320
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1028
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:28.920
in Hell pod. You can also join the discussion group
1029
01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:30.800
on Facebook. It's free and the link is in the
1030
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:33.280
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1031
01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:35.280
to be on the show. Dm us on Instagram, or
1032
01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:37.800
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1033
01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:41.920
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