WEBVTT
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Hello everyone and welcome to Boys and Boardrooms.
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This episode's guest spent a decade in a relationship and then that relationship ended.
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At some point in her 30s, she walked out of the apartment she had built with her partner and started over.
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New place, no furniture, no plan for who she was supposed to be on the other side of this relationship.
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And that's the detail I keep coming back to.
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In the middle of all of it, she was sitting on the floor of an empty apartment, ordering bowls, ordering a bed frame online.
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She was restocking a life and doing it alone.
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But at the same time, she was also a public-facing expert on beginnings.
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Weddings, relationships.
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These are some of the biggest transitions of other people's lives.
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And the woman who was ordering bowls off the floor was the same woman the internet was calling to officiate their weddings.
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That is the gap this episode is about.
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Not the breakup, but the gap between the version of her that had built a career on having the answers and the version of her sitting in an apartment that no longer had answers in it.
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That gap has a name, and today we are going to name it.
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My guest today is Jenny Dreisen.
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She is an etiquette expert, a wedding officiant, and the co-founder of Fresh Starts Registry, a platform she built with her sister for people starting over from divorce, breakups, and every other ending that does not come with a registry.
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She built that platform out of her own ending and the harder question underneath all of it, who she was when the role she had built for other people collapsed in her own life.
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Jenny, welcome.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm so happy to be here today, Andy.
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I am thrilled to have you, and we're just going to jump right into it.
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So I want to know a little bit more about who you were before the relationship ended.
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Take me back to before any of this happened.
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Who were you?
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What were you publicly known for?
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And what was the version of you that the world saw?
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Oh my gosh, what great question.
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So I am a middle child.
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I am uh, I have my older sister, Olivia, and then we have a younger brother and a younger sister from our dad's second marriage.
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And I'm like, I think of bare in a lot of ways, I'm like the eldest daughter middle child combo.
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Like I am, I kind of like flew under the radar a lot of the time, a little overlooked, um, but also like very type A.
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And um, so who I was before the relationship ended was somebody that always did what they believed they were supposed to be doing.
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I was very much the good girl, you know.
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Um, I just barely didn't get Val Victorian of my graduating class.
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I graduated with honors, I graduated college with honors.
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Like I always just did exactly what I felt was the right thing.
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And I and I did it sort of in my own way enough where I didn't really even understand that I was trying to be a good girl.
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Well, I studied religious studies.
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Like that's wild, you know, but it was still religious studies at NYU.
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Um, you know, it's still very much following a pattern and um, you know, always had a job.
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I sort of bounced around.
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I never knew what I wanted my career to be.
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Um, but eventually in my mid-20s, I ended up I was doing professional, I was a professional wedding officiant, but then I was also started my sort of what I call my career job, which was working in large corporate events.
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Um, I worked for a an agency that did like activations and badging for large corporate events.
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And it was a very interesting experience because I think in a lot of ways, like that was a relationship in and of itself.
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My relationship with my boss and that complicated relationship of like two people trying to navigate that world.
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Um, and I was on the road a lot.
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I I was very much a doer.
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I was like an over, uh, what do they call it?
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Like an overproducer.
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Like I just felt my job was to take care of other people.
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And that was very convenient because often my job was to take care of other people, quite literally.
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I ended up um towards the end of my relationship, I would say the last five years, I ended up leaving that job um at the agency.
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I went and worked in wedding invitations for a little while, which was really interesting.
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I learned a lot about deadlines and writing emails that get responses and stuff like that.
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Um, and then I went back into the tech world because I actually love event technology and I love events.
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Um, and I worked as a technical coordinator, which basically meant that I was the wife to a group of a group of like technical producers.
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Like I made sure everybody's hotel was right and I made sure everybody had the right food and ordered dinner and kept the you know the show office like full of food and snacks and everything they needed.
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Um, and there was a really interesting positive feedback loop there, right?
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You're so good at taking care of other people.
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Right.
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You should just keep doing that.
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And the problem was nobody was taking care of me.
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I mean, you know, outside of my sister and my friends, my partner wasn't taking care of me.
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Like, I just took care of everyone, and I thought that was sort of what my job was and what my role was in the world.
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And it's funny because my husband just said to me the other day, I was like, Well, my job is to, you know, take care of you.
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And he was like, You don't have a job when it comes to me.
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You're just a freelance hottie, like it's fine.
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You don't have a job.
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And so, you know, that was very much who what I was known for was like, you know, upbeat, buoyant, take care of other people, uh, no real needs of my own.
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So it sounds like these roles, right?
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You were officially you were officiating weddings, you were in a way an expert of etiquette, managing other people's life, taking care of other other people.
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Yeah.
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It it definitely cost you, I'm sure.
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It cost you internally, but what were you telling yourself those years?
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Obviously, it's costing you, but what were you telling yourself about that gap between the version of your life that you were living publicly, but also in private?
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I don't think I even knew that that was an option for me, to be honest with you.
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Like it there was always a really good explanation, you know, and like, well, my sister has kids, so like I'm not gonna ask for her to take care of me.
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She's got kids, right?
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And I really fell into a very traditional domestic role with my then partner.
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Um, we lived together at the time.
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And it was very hard, you know, it's it was one of those things where like I'm a very smart person and I can make anything make sense.
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And that's a dangerous thing to have.
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You know, I I can be okay in any situation because I'm incredibly buoyant, but that doesn't mean that that's the right situation for me.
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And so it made a lot I worked from home.
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Well, of course it makes sense I'm gonna make dinner because I work from home, right?
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And of course it makes sense I'm gonna do this because I work from home.
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And it never really, and I never felt like I anything happened to me that rose to the level of needing to be taken care of because I'm very capable.
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So it was like, even I remember um there was one weekend where I got like an infection and my finger and my ex happened to be, I think, away for work.
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He was traveling for work a lot too.
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And I just I had to get my prescription, you know, I had to get myself dressed and get my prescription.
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I was in so much pain and I was so uncomfortable.
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And I just remember thinking to myself, like, nobody's gonna save you.
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Like nobody's gonna save you except for yourself, you know?
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And obviously there are situations that can't be avoided like that, but I think I just didn't even know that it was an option that somebody could just want to take care of you and and want to want, you know, want to take care of you like you take care of them, and that you are allowed to be vulnerable.
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I always tell people like a great way of uh pretending to be vulnerable is crying a lot, which I do.
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I cry but I got away for so many years with my girlfriends thinking I was vulnerable and then realizing after my breakup that I really wasn't.
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I was not comfortable being vulnerable with them.
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I was not comfortable crying in front of them or being what I call like the messy friend.
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Um, I just had cried a lot, and that was convenient because it sort of it's a mask.
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It's a mask that lets people think you're being vulnerable, but like it was very uh controlled.
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It was a very controlled sort of like, I will cry about this, uh, but then I will be okay.
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And like we do not have to talk about it anymore.
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And even now, still, like if I get on the phone with one of my girlfriends and I start crying, I'm like, I am deeply uncomfortable right now.
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Yeah.
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But I'm allowing myself to do it.
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Be vulnerable.
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It was a protective mechanism, even in a way, crying as protection to show vulnerability and be accepted in, but not actually have to go deep.
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Exactly.
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It's a it's a really good like acting mechanism, you know, because it was real crying, but it's like it's a mystery act.
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It's so you see it over here, don't look over here.
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What really is going on?
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Oh, absolutely.
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I so candidly, I used to do that in relationships back in the day as well, before I before I met my husband.
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And it's it's a tool.
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We we lean on it sometimes.
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I want to talk about the end of your relationship in a second, right?
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Because that's the anchoring story.
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That's where where things started to shift for you.
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But you're talking about something that I mentioned, I've mentioned previously in workshops that I've held.
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This role, it's the overperformer.
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Overperformer.
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Someone who, in some way, um, and maybe confirm for me that if this tracks for you, but you were rewarded for that performance as a child.
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If maybe you brought home the straight A's or you handled this kind of role, or you handled your this task, you learn that that's how you get love and you become dependent on that love, and you have decided, okay, this is how I get it.
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And you start the program of working this way subconsciously that you then have to deprogram later in life.
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So what I hear is traditional overperformer.
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All of that, yeah.
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I mean, yeah, like my our childhood was complicated.
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Um, there was a uh custody situation with my dad where he wasn't, I mean, he had to work.
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And like my parents had 50-50 custody, but then my dad was working in the city, and so nobody was home when we would get home from school.
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And my mom was like, I'm home, like let me have them.
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I'm like, you know, yeah.
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Um, but we were home alone, and my sister and I had to parent our brother, and it, you know, the expectation of grades was always there, but that was never tough for me, like bringing home the good grades.
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It was like, but I was, you know, in sixth grade and I was doing homework with my little brother and getting him ready for bed and making dinner and all of those things.
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And so you're just like, I guess this is what it's like.
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I guess this is, and we take care of each other.
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And so, and then it's very convenient.
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Everybody's happy with you because you're taking care of everybody, right?
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And, you know, your brother's safe and you did a good job.
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And even when the custody situation changed, it's hard to give that up.
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And, you know, you're, I think as a child of divorce, you're constantly code switching and you're protecting this parent, and you don't want those people to talk about your parent.
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Like it just, and so you're constantly overperforming, and you're also a representation of whatever parent you're not with at any given moment, right?
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So I don't want my uncles and aunts on my dad's side to talk negatively about my mom.
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So I need to make sure I seem okay, right, all the time.
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And so it becomes this thing of like, I just need to make sure I seem okay all the time.
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Which I'm saying, I think for the first time that I've ever realized that that like that was what it was.
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I needed to make sure I seemed really good all the time, you know?
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A hundred percent.
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So we we are we have very similar upbringings.
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You're talking to another child of divorce and a 50-50 custody.
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And what I found is that I also was an overperformer for a very long time.
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And this is what happens you take on this role early on of being an adult and being rewarded for doing adult things.
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And there are great ways that that benefits you down the line in terms of professional success.
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But emotionally, in relationships, what you then think it is your role and your job to take on, what you've been validated for in the past continuously on being, like you said, the good girl, the good girlfriend, the good daughter.
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That's what you take in and you believe you have to play these roles in relationships until you end up sitting on an apartment floor alone 10 years later.
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I've had a lot of my own stories that I'll eventually share on the podcast about this kind of thing as well.
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So let's go into that.
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Walk me through the ending, not the explanation, but like the sequence, what actually happened and over what kind of time.
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Yeah.
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Oh my goodness.
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Oh, it so it's actually so funny because it was like five years ago this week that it happened.
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Okay.
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Um sort of like in it right now, just thinking about it.
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You know, I like to like look at pictures and stuff and think about how far I've come.
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So my ex and I just like briefly, we we met in college, we got together after college.
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Um, I was like 23 when we started dating.
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We moved in together about six years later, or no, four years later.
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Uh, and all the relationship was 10 years.
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Um, we got engaged after eight years, but he had the ring for two years.
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Like every step of the relationship felt like I was like dragging him along.
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And you know, we were never like a really we're not a contentious couple, not bad.
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We were always good fighters, like it wasn't bad.
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Um, it just wasn't good.
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And it was always like we were just misaligned.
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Like I was thinking about this today.
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Um, because when we broke up, he said to me, like, it's gonna we're gonna be fine.
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And I said, We have to be great, like this is fine.
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We're fine now, like we gotta go be great.
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And somebody was like, Well, maybe some of us just get fine.
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And I thought, well, I like I was always being asked to be somebody that I wasn't, and he was always being asked to be somebody that he wasn't, and that's not fun for anyone involved.
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No, so yeah, we were together for 10 years, all told.
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We lasted a year into COVID.
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It was June 2021.
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Um, and we actually like my my husband was laughing at me.
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He was like, How do you know all these dates?
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And I was like, I know it was three Wednesdays in June.
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Um, and so my brother is born June 2nd.
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We had my brother and his now fiance and my dad over for my brother's birthday, and it was weird energy.
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Like there was just like weird energy in our house.
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Then June 9th is my dad's birthday, one week later, and we went out to dinner, and my ex and I had a big fight.
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We were starting a family and it was contentious.
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It wasn't it wasn't going well.
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Our wedding had been canceled because of COVID.
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So we were like, maybe we'll just like have a baby.
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Or I was like, Maybe we'll just have a baby, and yeah, yeah.
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And um, so we had this argument that I couldn't tell you.
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I mean, I'm sure it was about I don't feel loved or I do teach, or one of the three things we fought fought about.
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Um, and it was the first time I ever was like, I said to him, like, well, I'll go meet my siblings for a drink, and you'll come to dinner, meet us there for my dad's birthday.
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And I it was the first and only time that I was like, I don't know if he's gonna show up.
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Like he was not an unreliable guy, you know, that wasn't his issue.
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But I was like, I don't know if he's gonna show up.
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And there's a photo that my sister's now ex-boyfriend took that night at dinner of the two of us, and like you can see, like he does not want to be next to me.
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Like he is so uncomfortable.
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Okay.
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He did show up.
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And then so the next Wednesday, June 16th, um, we had a fight.
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We had a big fight that morning, which again, we were not that couple.
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We were just bad, we we should have broken up.
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Um, we had a big fight about domestic labor, domestic inequity, um, and which I did everything and he did nothing.
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And um he, I I like we were gonna, we're like, we'd calmed down, we'd like figured it out.
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We went to go watch a show.
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I went to the bedroom, took out my contacts, and like the second my contacts came out, the tears just started.
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And I came in and he was like, What's wrong?
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And I said, I think we need to talk about what this thing is that's going on with us.
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And he said, No, no, we'll talk about it later.
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And I said, Avoid it, no, talk about it now, exactly.
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Avoid it.
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And he was just like, didn't want to.
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I'm sure he was like, Can you make this woman stop talking to me?
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.279
And I there was like some other stuff that was going on where I knew I had a car.
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:50.960
We lived in Queens and I had a car.
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:59.759
So I knew my dad was gonna come visit us in Queens the next day and drive with me and my brother and his girlfriend to my mom's house on Long Island.
00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:07.919
So I knew that like if something happened, I I didn't have to drive myself from Queens to Long Island crying.
00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.080
Like my dad would be able to drive my car.
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.120
Practical, right?
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:12.159
Practical to the end.
00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.399
So I was like, no, um, right?
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:15.279
How do I protect myself?
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:16.320
But you are, that's part of it.
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:19.200
You're thinking two or three steps ahead and protect yourself.
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:19.919
Exactly.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:25.679
And we'd had a conversation, we'd had like a big fight maybe like 10 months before that, where he was like, I don't know if I love you anymore.
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:27.200
And I was like, Yes, you do.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:29.120
Like, don't worry about it, you know.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.840
But it I knew that day that I couldn't do that again.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.200
So I said, Okay, like let's no, we have to talk about this.
00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:39.360
And he just said to me, I don't think I love you anymore, and I don't think we should have a baby.
00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:43.759
And I was like, that makes sense because that's how it feels.
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:51.519
And I took off my engagement ring and I said, and I telling you, this is my my 100% truth.
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:56.000
I saw what I now understand or I believe is a Scottish road.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:04.240
I thought it was an Irish road, and I saw this beautiful country road, and I saw the clouds part, and I thought, oh my God, my life is gonna be amazing.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.000
Like I knew that in that instant.
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:06.720
Wow.
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:07.279
Okay.
00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:08.559
And I just knew it.
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.839
And I put my ring down and we had a really lovely night together.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:20.400
Like we packed up my stuff and we talked and we cried, and you know, he held me, which was like not a thing that we did, and and it was fine.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:26.160
And I called my sister, or I think my sister texted me, and I was like, I think we just broke up.
00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:29.519
And she called my dad and she was like, you know, everybody was like, Are you okay?
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.240
And I was like, I'm okay, you know, and it was sad.
00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:46.160
And you wake up for the next week, you can't breathe because the person that you've been with for a decade is suddenly not in your life anymore, and you just can't believe that you used to know exactly where somebody was all the time, and now you have no idea about their life.
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:53.200
Um, but I drove out to, you know, my dad came the next day, and we all drove out to Long Island, and uh, you know, that was it.
00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.480
I I saw him, I've seen him now two times since then.
00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:01.440
I had to go back and get my stuff, and that was that was the end of their relationship.
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:07.359
So, by the way, I just want to inform listeners that Jenny now lives in Scotland.
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.559
So her reference to Scotland was very intentional.
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:16.000
And I am very much a believer in signs and synchronicity and have seen so much of that in my own life.
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.160
So amazing, first of all.
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:26.400
Um, but again, it sounds like this, you know, this relationship, the unraveling of it allowed you to step into a new version of yourself.
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:31.680
But why do you think, you know, you'd written um that leaving feels like losing?
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:34.640
Like was that what was holding you there for so long?
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.960
Because you said, I mean, you ignored essentially your partner saying, I don't think I love you anymore.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:39.279
Right?
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:40.400
Where was that coming from?
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.759
What were you anchoring to to keep pushing through the relationship?
00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.799
I think it's really complicated to know when to leave.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:51.440
And it's I'm very good at quitting jobs um because they give you big signs, right?
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:54.400
My boss was like, I'm gonna, you know, take away your raise.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:55.839
And I was like, Well, I'm leaving.
00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:58.000
Like a good time to leave.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:03.359
But I think with relationships, it's hard to be like, well, I'm not gonna leave because of that.
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.200
I'm not gonna leave because of that, right?
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.480
It's all these small, these, you know, death by a thousand cuts.
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.519
Like, and I feel like that was the problem.
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.799
And it it was a it was a good girl track.
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:16.079
Link to each other.
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.000
His parents were very nice people.
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.079
He can't I I knew that he wasn't gonna be abusive or scary.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:26.079
Um, and that was a big thing for me, especially thinking about having kids.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.519
Like, I knew that he wasn't gonna be a bad dad.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:36.960
Retroact retrospectively, he probably wasn't gonna be that great of a dad, like, you know, involvement-wise, but he wasn't gonna hurt anybody.
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:44.160
Um, and so there was like all of these things of like, and then you know, I I liked our story and I liked the all that we'd done together.
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:49.519
When you were are with somebody from your the time you're 23, like you grow up together, right?
00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:00.000
And there was also an element of when uh my sister had had her kids, uh, we were together for about I don't know, three years by then.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:02.480
And I said to him, Are you gonna be their uncle?
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:10.160
Because I have uncles and aunts that came into my life later on or were around but weren't married, and they never became like aunt whatever.
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:12.079
They just kind of were always name.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:13.599
And I said, Are you gonna be their uncle?
00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:15.519
And he was like, I want to be uncle name.
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:16.799
And I was like, Great.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:26.079
And then my sister got divorced and my ex-brother-in-law moved and doesn't come back very often to visit and see his kids.
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.960
And I was like, I don't want to take another man that these kids love away from them.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:44.640
Like it broke my heart to do that, and so it was like not that not that we had kids already, but we had nephews that that they still call him Uncle Name because to that them, that's his full name is Uncle, you know.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:49.200
And so, and whereas my husband now, they're like Thomas, they just call him Thomas.
00:20:49.759 --> 00:21:07.519
And you know, he's he he prefers that that works for him, but like you know, I think that it's just it was really hard to leave that and to feel like if it never felt like anything rose to the level, and it felt like, you know, the he was from a different culture, so maybe he just understands things differently.
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:14.480
But I think that and that that first time that he said that, which was about 10 months before, I was like not ready to hear it.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:20.319
And that's why I always say, like, I couldn't have left a day earlier because I just wasn't ready to hear it.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:21.039
Yeah.
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:26.480
I think what I hear in your story is something I see in a lot of, you know, overperformers, high achieving women.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:36.480
The role becomes the self, the role that you have for everyone else and and everything that you're doing, it becomes the self and it becomes very hard to unravel from who you are and what you actually want.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:42.880
And we had this big social circle and like like career circle, like everything was just very enmeshed.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:44.799
And it was just hard.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.640
Uh you know, you go from being I graduated college at 21.
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.680
I was kind of in a stupid relationship from 21 to 22.
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.720
And then from my whole adulthood had been with him.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.440
Like, I'm just gonna give that all up because like what?
00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:59.839
Like, because he doesn't make dinner, you know what I mean?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.599
I mean, it's like actually if you kind of get into what it means when somebody doesn't make dinner, like that might be a reason to leave.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:06.559
That might be enough.
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:06.880
Yeah.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:11.759
So what was it like then, Jenny, to, you know, you're still overseeing at this point.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:13.119
Other people's biggest moments.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:14.079
There's weddings, right?
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:15.119
All these beginnings.
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:15.920
I mean, it's raw.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.000
It's like putting salt in the woo wound in a way.
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:27.519
But what was it like to be unraveling your life, you know, in the middle of trying to also help other people begin theirs?
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:32.799
You know, they think you have it probably all figured out in that realm and you're really going through something so big.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.519
Well, it was always weird to be doing wedding, being a wedding officiate and not having been married.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.079
Like I always was like, I feel bizarrely about this, but you know, people still hired me.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:51.759
By then I wasn't doing much officiating, but I was working with my sister at our social media company, and one of our bigger clients was a company that made vow books.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.079
And so I was like deep in weddings and that.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:02.000
And she always tells this story where, like, after my ex and I broke up, we had a family event.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.720
That was why we went to Long Island, a sad family event.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:13.839
And so for the first time in 30 years, my mom and my dad and my stepdad were all in the same in my the house that I'd grown up in.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.960
That like my dad had first time in 30 years.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:17.519
Yeah.
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.920
So my mom and my stepdad live there, obviously.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:23.200
But my dad hadn't been invited into the home in like 30 years.
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:23.599
Wow.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:29.200
And so we're all and and and the thing that had happened was he had put his cat down.
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.880
And so we were having a funeral for the cat and my relationship on the same day.
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:33.839
Oh my goodness.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:34.400
Yeah.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:34.960
Yeah.
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:42.000
And so we're like eating bagels and like I'm crying and sort of like pinging between my two dads, like putting my head on their chest.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:54.400
And um, my sister, like at some point, looks at me and she's like, I don't know why she said it then, but she said something like, Oh, by the way, we have to do this work for this client, this wedding client.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:56.319
And she's like, You growled at me.
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.400
You like made a growling sound at me.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.319
And I think it was then that we were like, We gotta get out of this.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:05.519
We gotta get out of this business because it was too hard.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:09.759
It was too hard to like continue and like keep thinking about that and talking about that.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.160
And I've I've very much come to the other side of it now.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.359
And I've, you know, I would be very happy to perform a wedding now.
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:19.119
But it was, it's a really hard thing to be in that place.
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.359
Um, and you know, I was so excited as a middle child.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.039
I had been so excited for my wedding.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:28.160
It was like the first time in my life that it was ever gonna be about me.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.119
Yeah, and I didn't even get that, you know, because of COVID.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:42.000
So it was it was a lot of loss and it was a lot of grieving of what I thought my life would be like and where I thought my life would be and who I thought I would be spending it with.
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:44.240
Um, there was a lot of grief there.
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:50.079
And like I said, there there was like a week where every morning where I woke up, you can't believe this is your reality.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:51.039
That's how I felt.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:56.400
Like I'm in my bed at my mom's house, like where I don't have a home, you know.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.599
And I kept talking about, you know, I have to get an apartment.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:04.160
And my mom at some point was like, we know, we know you have to get an apartment.
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:10.559
But I like needed so badly to ground myself in the fact that I was going to have a life.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:19.119
And I went one night to Target, like late by myself to Target, and I bought towels because I was like, what no matter what my life is gonna be, I'm gonna need towels.
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:25.359
And I'm gonna keep living, I'm gonna keep having a life because it just felt like it had all been stripped away from me.
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:40.559
And it went literally went like I watched videos that I sent to my friends Marco Polo's, like from earlier that day, where everything was fine till then like my I left everything in that apartment, like my whole world just gone overnight.
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:41.759
Very weird feeling.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.599
I can imagine.
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:45.920
But now, right, you're on the other side of it.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:46.319
Yeah.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:51.359
And I want to talk a little bit about Fresh Starts Registry and why it exists.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:26:00.880
But I think it's so interesting that you started on one side where you were truly, again, more culturally, societally, right?
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:06.640
What we celebrate is weddings and relationships and all of the new things in the beginning.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:24.160
But I think what you're doing now with Fresh Starts Registry, it's even a bit more beautiful because I think getting people to the other side of, like you just said, where you you had to fall apart first before these amazing things became possible, before Edinburgh became possible, before you keep referencing your husband, right?
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:25.839
You met the man that you were supposed to marry.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.160
Yeah.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:33.599
So Fresh Starts Registry, to my understanding, exists because you and your sister were both inside endings around the same time.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:33.920
Yes.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:35.359
Tell me about that.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:35.680
Yeah.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.799
Her marriage ended two weeks after I got engaged.
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.680
Oh, her marriage ended in 2019.
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:51.440
And uh a couple months after my uh ex-brother-in-law left, like so they lived together for a couple months, you know, as people do, and he moved back to where he is from.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:27:00.319
Um, my ex and I went over and we sort of helped her clean out the house and we put an alarm system in and did all the things.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:07.279
And we went home that night and she wrote down in her diary, like, this is when I need this is when people need things.
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:09.279
I like this is when you need support.
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.400
Wish there was a place for people, it would be for fresh starts.
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:14.240
And she wrote down, I want to start this company.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:15.839
It would be called Fresh Starts Registry.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.680
Like she wrote her now, like, I know.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:19.920
And she came to me and she was like, I want to build this.
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:23.759
And I was like, it's this is 2019, so this is pre-pandemic.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:26.960
I was still I was traveling a quarter of the year for work.
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.279
Um, I was engaged.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.519
Uh, we hadn't worked together, she and I.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.920
And I was like, I don't, this is a great idea.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.160
I have no idea how to make this happen.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:37.519
Just table it.
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:43.119
And then when I when my relationship ended, I'm sitting on the floor of my apartment with my laptop on my lap.
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:44.559
I have no stuff, right?
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:51.359
I have to buy a mattress, every plate, every cup, uh curtains, like anything that you could possibly need for an apartment.
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:52.160
I needed.
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:59.599
And I hit buy on like a$10,000 cart worth of stuff, which is funny now because now most of it's in storage in New York.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:01.200
Um great.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:10.799
Um, and so um I hit purchase and I called her up and I was like, that idea that you had, you know, two years ago is a really good idea.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:11.920
Let's bring it back.
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:16.720
I ordered a table, I built the table, I put my laptop on the table, and I built the website.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:23.920
Like, and so that that was sort of how it came to be was just the two of us figuring out, you know, what we needed, what we could do.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.039
And it's really developed over time of what the website offers.
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:29.759
It's obviously much bigger now than it was five years ago.
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:35.200
Um, a lot more blog posts, a lot more resources, a lot more experts than we had five years ago.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.880
I think we started with 20 experts and we have over 160 now.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:42.799
So, you know, it's just become this its own thing.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:58.799
And we're so grateful to get to make it our life's work because even as a seven and a nine-year-old, when our parents were getting divorced, we wanted to support and be supported and help other people and connect with other people that were kids going through divorce, but now we want to do that.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.640
And, you know, I think it's funny what you say about the the through line.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.920
When I was a wedding efficient, my brand was called Cheerleader for Love, because that's what I believed in.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.240
And I am the cheerleader for love, like I still am.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:16.160
Like there's so much joy, and I always say you have no high idea how high the ceiling of your joy is.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.519
Like, and you can't know that if you're in the wrong relationship.
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:24.160
And that might mean therapy, that might mean counseling, that might mean divorce.
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.960
I don't know what it means, but it is worth exploring.
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:36.480
So there's a specific kind of cultural silence, I think, around innings that are not death.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.240
Yeah, you know, divorce, break.
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:39.279
What's that?
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:40.720
Say that again and death.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:41.680
Yes, and death.
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:43.039
Yeah, yes, there is.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:46.640
But but I think like divorce, breakups, engagements, right?
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:49.920
The engagements that don't become marriage, so broken engagements.
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:52.640
You obviously created a space for these people.
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:59.200
So talk to our listeners a bit more about what you think that silence, you know, not having a space, costs the people inside of it.
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:01.759
Yeah, I think that it costs us a lot of dignity.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:03.920
And I think that it's really uncomfortable.
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:11.680
One of the things that we've observed is that people don't want to grant dignity to people who are going through those large life changes.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:20.240
Um, there's a lot of responsibility and like personal responsibility put on it, and you should have known and it's your fault and failed marriage kind of nonsense.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:26.400
But I think people also really don't know how to speak about it because they are afraid that it's going to be contagious.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:36.400
And I do think that divorce is contagious because I think that if you watch your friend get out of a marriage that's not working, you might start having some ideas too if your marriage is also not working.
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:40.000
I don't think divorce is contagious for people that are in happy marriages.
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.880
Um, I always say like happy marriages don't end in divorce.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:45.599
They just don't.
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:47.200
That's a paradox.
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:51.680
Um, and so I think that people are just very uncomfortable with it.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:53.119
They don't know how to talk about it.
00:30:53.359 --> 00:31:00.160
They don't know if when they talk about it, it might reflect poorly on their relationship or their marriage, or they might have to take action, right?
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:17.680
Like if you see your friend leave a marriage that's a lot like yours, and then you look at yours and realize they're a lot alike, you might feel frustrated or compelled, but unable or you know, guilty that you can't or won't leave in that moment.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:20.480
Um, and I think that that's uncomfortable for people.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.839
They really don't know what to do with that information.
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:34.319
You know, it's funny, like we have a podcast called Divorce Happens, and a friend of mine was going to um talk to a large re a large podcasting network.
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:36.079
And she was like, Can I tell them about you?
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:37.599
Like it would be cool if they picked you up.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:38.559
And I said, sure.
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:42.319
And so she did, and they said, Well, it's kind of a niche issue.
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:45.680
And I think that that's how people think of divorce, is that it's a niche issue.
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:49.759
Niche issue when it occurs to more than half of the population.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:53.519
Half of the population for first marriages, 70% of the population for second marriages.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:54.480
For second marriages, yeah.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:56.640
Yeah, so it's it's not a niche issue.
00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:00.079
And I think that that's just how it is not pretty.
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.880
Um, and I I it is not traditionally pretty.
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.119
Like I think I actually think divorce is beautiful, right?
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:19.599
But I think it is considered not pretty, and people do not want to look at it because it it if we subscribe to the Judeo-Christian concept of what life is about and we sort of take in that idea, marriage is the ultimate, right?
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:21.599
Marriage is what you should all be working for.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:22.960
I don't agree with that, obviously.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:24.720
As a company, we don't agree with that.
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.039
And so if you step out of those bounds, it is very uncomfortable for society.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:35.519
Like, we do not want to see women who are single, and we saw that in the last presidential election, right?
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:39.039
Like they had a lot of things to say about women who are not married.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:42.880
And so I think that it just makes people wildly uncomfortable.
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:44.079
They don't know what to do with it.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:49.440
There is still such a very intense narrative around divorcees.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:56.160
You know, I think of like it hasn't changed that much since Mad Men when Helen Bishop was the town pariah.
00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:02.559
Like, I think we still see women, you know, navigating their husbands away from the divorcees at the party.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:14.400
It's it's very wild the way, the regressive way that divorce is still treated and the way that we still talk about it of broken families and as if, you know, is divorce good for children and things like that.
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:15.599
Like it's dated.
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:16.880
It's a dated conversation.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.119
And um, Olivia and I are just not having it.
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:20.319
We're not here for it.
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:22.160
And I love that you are not.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:35.839
Uh, this goes back to I I talk a lot about validation dependency, and it's what keeps women, especially, I think, rooted in these marriages, in these relationships where they don't leave.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:40.240
They simply do not leave because they are afraid of losing their status.
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:45.359
They're afraid of, to your point, becoming the pariah that they shouldn't have to be in 2026.
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:57.359
And I think communities like yours that bring those women together, because really what you need in that instance is you need other people who are going through the same thing that you are that normalize your experience, that validate your experience.
00:33:57.680 --> 00:33:59.440
Yeah, and stories that you can see.
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:06.319
Yeah, we always say we just want to make divorce boring because it's just another life transition, especially if you have children with that person.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:08.800
Like it's just a it's just a transition.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.559
You're still gonna be co-parenting.
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:12.400
It's just a relationship status change.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.239
It's not that interesting.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:20.880
Um, and we don't want those women to be feel like gossip, you know, or like they're crazy and everybody thinks they're crazy.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:26.719
The great thing about when everybody thinking you're crazy is that you can do whatever you want and go live your joy.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:28.400
Yeah, live your joy.
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:29.599
Live your joy.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:30.400
It's great.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:35.119
Well, I'm gonna close it with one question for you before we tell people where to find you.
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.679
So let's go back to that version of you who was sitting on the apartment floor.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:40.960
What does she know now?
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:42.400
Almost five years later, right?
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:44.559
Yeah.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:51.440
That she did not know then, and not the advice, but what is the thing that this Jenny knows in her body?
00:34:52.320 --> 00:35:02.320
I know what it feels like to be loved now because I'm able to accept it from the people that that have always been loving me, but I'm um I'm able to really feel it now.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:07.519
And I know that I know so much more about community and support than I did then.
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:08.800
That is so beautiful.
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:10.320
And that's what's on the other side.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.280
So for those of you listening who might be in this situation right now.
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:13.760
Yeah.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:21.199
And for those of you who again are are looking to potentially work with Fresh Starts Registry, you know, Jenny, where can we find you and Olivia?
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:22.639
What's what's your information?
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:27.920
So you can find us at Fresh Startsregistry.com, spelled exactly like it sounds.
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:31.519
Um, and we are everywhere on social as Fresh Starts Registry.
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:34.400
We I am on social as Genevieve Dreizen.
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:35.440
Good luck spelling that.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:40.880
Um, if you want to find us on social, you can also find us at Olivia and Jenny on Instagram.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:46.559
Um, and we uh, you know, any place you need to find us, um, we will be there.
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:51.440
You can get me at Jenny J-E-N-N-Y at Fresh Startsregistry.com.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:58.719
Um, if you have any questions about anything um with the company or making a registry or finding an expert.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:35:59.519
I love that.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.079
And we'll of course put this information in the show notes too.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:03.679
But thank you so much, Jenny.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:05.760
It's okay.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:07.679
I I have a long maiden name too.
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:08.960
But it's great.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:10.079
It was great to have you on.
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:13.760
Thank you for your in your your authenticity and your vulnerability.
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:15.039
It was a great conversation.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:15.920
Thank you, Jenny.
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:17.199
Thank you so much.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.959
Hello everyone and welcome to Boys and Boardrooms.
00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:08.080
This episode's guest spent a decade in a relationship and then that relationship ended.
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:13.119
At some point in her 30s, she walked out of the apartment she had built with her partner and started over.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:19.199
New place, no furniture, no plan for who she was supposed to be on the other side of this relationship.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:22.160
And that's the detail I keep coming back to.
00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:28.960
In the middle of all of it, she was sitting on the floor of an empty apartment, ordering bowls, ordering a bed frame online.
00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:31.600
She was restocking a life and doing it alone.
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:36.000
But at the same time, she was also a public-facing expert on beginnings.
00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:38.000
Weddings, relationships.
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:41.200
These are some of the biggest transitions of other people's lives.
00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:47.039
And the woman who was ordering bowls off the floor was the same woman the internet was calling to officiate their weddings.
00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:49.280
That is the gap this episode is about.
00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:58.960
Not the breakup, but the gap between the version of her that had built a career on having the answers and the version of her sitting in an apartment that no longer had answers in it.
00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:02.079
That gap has a name, and today we are going to name it.
00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:04.640
My guest today is Jenny Dreisen.
00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:17.200
She is an etiquette expert, a wedding officiant, and the co-founder of Fresh Starts Registry, a platform she built with her sister for people starting over from divorce, breakups, and every other ending that does not come with a registry.
00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:26.159
She built that platform out of her own ending and the harder question underneath all of it, who she was when the role she had built for other people collapsed in her own life.
00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:27.599
Jenny, welcome.
00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:28.879
Thank you so much for having me.
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:31.040
I'm so happy to be here today, Andy.
00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:35.200
I am thrilled to have you, and we're just going to jump right into it.
00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:41.120
So I want to know a little bit more about who you were before the relationship ended.
00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:43.840
Take me back to before any of this happened.
00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:44.879
Who were you?
00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:46.799
What were you publicly known for?
00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:49.920
And what was the version of you that the world saw?
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:51.840
Oh my gosh, what great question.
00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:54.239
So I am a middle child.
00:01:54.719 --> 00:02:01.680
I am uh, I have my older sister, Olivia, and then we have a younger brother and a younger sister from our dad's second marriage.
00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:07.439
And I'm like, I think of bare in a lot of ways, I'm like the eldest daughter middle child combo.
00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:15.680
Like I am, I kind of like flew under the radar a lot of the time, a little overlooked, um, but also like very type A.
00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:23.360
And um, so who I was before the relationship ended was somebody that always did what they believed they were supposed to be doing.
00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:26.000
I was very much the good girl, you know.
00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:31.120
Um, I just barely didn't get Val Victorian of my graduating class.
00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:34.159
I graduated with honors, I graduated college with honors.
00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.919
Like I always just did exactly what I felt was the right thing.
00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:45.840
And I and I did it sort of in my own way enough where I didn't really even understand that I was trying to be a good girl.
00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:47.919
Well, I studied religious studies.
00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:52.479
Like that's wild, you know, but it was still religious studies at NYU.
00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:58.560
Um, you know, it's still very much following a pattern and um, you know, always had a job.
00:02:58.639 --> 00:02:59.919
I sort of bounced around.
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.479
I never knew what I wanted my career to be.
00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:15.680
Um, but eventually in my mid-20s, I ended up I was doing professional, I was a professional wedding officiant, but then I was also started my sort of what I call my career job, which was working in large corporate events.
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:22.240
Um, I worked for a an agency that did like activations and badging for large corporate events.
00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:27.919
And it was a very interesting experience because I think in a lot of ways, like that was a relationship in and of itself.
00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:33.840
My relationship with my boss and that complicated relationship of like two people trying to navigate that world.
00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:36.719
Um, and I was on the road a lot.
00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:38.800
I I was very much a doer.
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:41.280
I was like an over, uh, what do they call it?
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:42.319
Like an overproducer.
00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:45.360
Like I just felt my job was to take care of other people.
00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:49.919
And that was very convenient because often my job was to take care of other people, quite literally.
00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:58.240
I ended up um towards the end of my relationship, I would say the last five years, I ended up leaving that job um at the agency.
00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:02.159
I went and worked in wedding invitations for a little while, which was really interesting.
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:08.719
I learned a lot about deadlines and writing emails that get responses and stuff like that.
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:14.479
Um, and then I went back into the tech world because I actually love event technology and I love events.
00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:23.279
Um, and I worked as a technical coordinator, which basically meant that I was the wife to a group of a group of like technical producers.
00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:35.040
Like I made sure everybody's hotel was right and I made sure everybody had the right food and ordered dinner and kept the you know the show office like full of food and snacks and everything they needed.
00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:39.759
Um, and there was a really interesting positive feedback loop there, right?
00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:41.439
You're so good at taking care of other people.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:41.759
Right.
00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.120
You should just keep doing that.
00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.839
And the problem was nobody was taking care of me.
00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:50.160
I mean, you know, outside of my sister and my friends, my partner wasn't taking care of me.
00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:56.800
Like, I just took care of everyone, and I thought that was sort of what my job was and what my role was in the world.
00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:02.079
And it's funny because my husband just said to me the other day, I was like, Well, my job is to, you know, take care of you.
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:04.480
And he was like, You don't have a job when it comes to me.
00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:07.199
You're just a freelance hottie, like it's fine.
00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:08.480
You don't have a job.
00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:18.319
And so, you know, that was very much who what I was known for was like, you know, upbeat, buoyant, take care of other people, uh, no real needs of my own.
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:20.879
So it sounds like these roles, right?
00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:28.480
You were officially you were officiating weddings, you were in a way an expert of etiquette, managing other people's life, taking care of other other people.
00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:28.959
Yeah.
00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:31.360
It it definitely cost you, I'm sure.
00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:35.920
It cost you internally, but what were you telling yourself those years?
00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:43.279
Obviously, it's costing you, but what were you telling yourself about that gap between the version of your life that you were living publicly, but also in private?
00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:47.279
I don't think I even knew that that was an option for me, to be honest with you.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:55.519
Like it there was always a really good explanation, you know, and like, well, my sister has kids, so like I'm not gonna ask for her to take care of me.
00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:56.879
She's got kids, right?
00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:03.920
And I really fell into a very traditional domestic role with my then partner.
00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:06.240
Um, we lived together at the time.
00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:13.360
And it was very hard, you know, it's it was one of those things where like I'm a very smart person and I can make anything make sense.
00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:15.120
And that's a dangerous thing to have.
00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:22.560
You know, I I can be okay in any situation because I'm incredibly buoyant, but that doesn't mean that that's the right situation for me.
00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:24.959
And so it made a lot I worked from home.
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:28.639
Well, of course it makes sense I'm gonna make dinner because I work from home, right?
00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:31.519
And of course it makes sense I'm gonna do this because I work from home.
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:40.240
And it never really, and I never felt like I anything happened to me that rose to the level of needing to be taken care of because I'm very capable.
00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:49.040
So it was like, even I remember um there was one weekend where I got like an infection and my finger and my ex happened to be, I think, away for work.
00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:50.639
He was traveling for work a lot too.
00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:56.399
And I just I had to get my prescription, you know, I had to get myself dressed and get my prescription.
00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:58.560
I was in so much pain and I was so uncomfortable.
00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.680
And I just remember thinking to myself, like, nobody's gonna save you.
00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:04.800
Like nobody's gonna save you except for yourself, you know?
00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:22.879
And obviously there are situations that can't be avoided like that, but I think I just didn't even know that it was an option that somebody could just want to take care of you and and want to want, you know, want to take care of you like you take care of them, and that you are allowed to be vulnerable.
00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:29.120
I always tell people like a great way of uh pretending to be vulnerable is crying a lot, which I do.
00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:39.360
I cry but I got away for so many years with my girlfriends thinking I was vulnerable and then realizing after my breakup that I really wasn't.
00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:41.439
I was not comfortable being vulnerable with them.
00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:46.240
I was not comfortable crying in front of them or being what I call like the messy friend.
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:52.639
Um, I just had cried a lot, and that was convenient because it sort of it's a mask.
00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:57.199
It's a mask that lets people think you're being vulnerable, but like it was very uh controlled.
00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:01.439
It was a very controlled sort of like, I will cry about this, uh, but then I will be okay.
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:03.839
And like we do not have to talk about it anymore.
00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:10.720
And even now, still, like if I get on the phone with one of my girlfriends and I start crying, I'm like, I am deeply uncomfortable right now.
00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:11.279
Yeah.
00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:13.360
But I'm allowing myself to do it.
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:14.879
Be vulnerable.
00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:23.519
It was a protective mechanism, even in a way, crying as protection to show vulnerability and be accepted in, but not actually have to go deep.
00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:24.480
Exactly.
00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:31.360
It's a it's a really good like acting mechanism, you know, because it was real crying, but it's like it's a mystery act.
00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:33.759
It's so you see it over here, don't look over here.
00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:35.200
What really is going on?
00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:36.159
Oh, absolutely.
00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:41.279
I so candidly, I used to do that in relationships back in the day as well, before I before I met my husband.
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:42.320
And it's it's a tool.
00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:43.919
We we lean on it sometimes.
00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.879
I want to talk about the end of your relationship in a second, right?
00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.159
Because that's the anchoring story.
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.320
That's where where things started to shift for you.
00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:56.480
But you're talking about something that I mentioned, I've mentioned previously in workshops that I've held.
00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:58.879
This role, it's the overperformer.
00:08:59.120 --> 00:08:59.759
Overperformer.
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:08.720
Someone who, in some way, um, and maybe confirm for me that if this tracks for you, but you were rewarded for that performance as a child.
00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:24.320
If maybe you brought home the straight A's or you handled this kind of role, or you handled your this task, you learn that that's how you get love and you become dependent on that love, and you have decided, okay, this is how I get it.
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:30.000
And you start the program of working this way subconsciously that you then have to deprogram later in life.
00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:33.120
So what I hear is traditional overperformer.
00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:34.320
All of that, yeah.
00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:38.320
I mean, yeah, like my our childhood was complicated.
00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:45.519
Um, there was a uh custody situation with my dad where he wasn't, I mean, he had to work.
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:52.639
And like my parents had 50-50 custody, but then my dad was working in the city, and so nobody was home when we would get home from school.
00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:55.679
And my mom was like, I'm home, like let me have them.
00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:56.720
I'm like, you know, yeah.
00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:09.360
Um, but we were home alone, and my sister and I had to parent our brother, and it, you know, the expectation of grades was always there, but that was never tough for me, like bringing home the good grades.
00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:18.480
It was like, but I was, you know, in sixth grade and I was doing homework with my little brother and getting him ready for bed and making dinner and all of those things.
00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:21.200
And so you're just like, I guess this is what it's like.
00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.279
I guess this is, and we take care of each other.
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:25.200
And so, and then it's very convenient.
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.240
Everybody's happy with you because you're taking care of everybody, right?
00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.200
And, you know, your brother's safe and you did a good job.
00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:35.600
And even when the custody situation changed, it's hard to give that up.
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:44.879
And, you know, you're, I think as a child of divorce, you're constantly code switching and you're protecting this parent, and you don't want those people to talk about your parent.
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:53.759
Like it just, and so you're constantly overperforming, and you're also a representation of whatever parent you're not with at any given moment, right?
00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:58.320
So I don't want my uncles and aunts on my dad's side to talk negatively about my mom.
00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:02.000
So I need to make sure I seem okay, right, all the time.
00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:06.080
And so it becomes this thing of like, I just need to make sure I seem okay all the time.
00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:11.919
Which I'm saying, I think for the first time that I've ever realized that that like that was what it was.
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.120
I needed to make sure I seemed really good all the time, you know?
00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:16.159
A hundred percent.
00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:18.799
So we we are we have very similar upbringings.
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.600
You're talking to another child of divorce and a 50-50 custody.
00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:25.679
And what I found is that I also was an overperformer for a very long time.
00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:32.480
And this is what happens you take on this role early on of being an adult and being rewarded for doing adult things.
00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:36.720
And there are great ways that that benefits you down the line in terms of professional success.
00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:49.519
But emotionally, in relationships, what you then think it is your role and your job to take on, what you've been validated for in the past continuously on being, like you said, the good girl, the good girlfriend, the good daughter.
00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:57.919
That's what you take in and you believe you have to play these roles in relationships until you end up sitting on an apartment floor alone 10 years later.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:02.080
I've had a lot of my own stories that I'll eventually share on the podcast about this kind of thing as well.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:03.600
So let's go into that.
00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:10.480
Walk me through the ending, not the explanation, but like the sequence, what actually happened and over what kind of time.
00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:10.879
Yeah.
00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:11.759
Oh my goodness.
00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:16.320
Oh, it so it's actually so funny because it was like five years ago this week that it happened.
00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:16.720
Okay.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:19.519
Um sort of like in it right now, just thinking about it.
00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.720
You know, I like to like look at pictures and stuff and think about how far I've come.
00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:27.840
So my ex and I just like briefly, we we met in college, we got together after college.
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.639
Um, I was like 23 when we started dating.
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:35.840
We moved in together about six years later, or no, four years later.
00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.720
Uh, and all the relationship was 10 years.
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:42.480
Um, we got engaged after eight years, but he had the ring for two years.
00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:46.559
Like every step of the relationship felt like I was like dragging him along.
00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:52.879
And you know, we were never like a really we're not a contentious couple, not bad.
00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:55.200
We were always good fighters, like it wasn't bad.
00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.039
Um, it just wasn't good.
00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.639
And it was always like we were just misaligned.
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.639
Like I was thinking about this today.
00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:06.879
Um, because when we broke up, he said to me, like, it's gonna we're gonna be fine.
00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:09.440
And I said, We have to be great, like this is fine.
00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:11.600
We're fine now, like we gotta go be great.
00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.960
And somebody was like, Well, maybe some of us just get fine.
00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:24.240
And I thought, well, I like I was always being asked to be somebody that I wasn't, and he was always being asked to be somebody that he wasn't, and that's not fun for anyone involved.
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.759
No, so yeah, we were together for 10 years, all told.
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.240
We lasted a year into COVID.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.480
It was June 2021.
00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:36.000
Um, and we actually like my my husband was laughing at me.
00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:37.519
He was like, How do you know all these dates?
00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.039
And I was like, I know it was three Wednesdays in June.
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:43.600
Um, and so my brother is born June 2nd.
00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:50.799
We had my brother and his now fiance and my dad over for my brother's birthday, and it was weird energy.
00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:53.279
Like there was just like weird energy in our house.
00:13:53.600 --> 00:14:00.000
Then June 9th is my dad's birthday, one week later, and we went out to dinner, and my ex and I had a big fight.
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:03.039
We were starting a family and it was contentious.
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:04.559
It wasn't it wasn't going well.
00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:07.279
Our wedding had been canceled because of COVID.
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:09.600
So we were like, maybe we'll just like have a baby.
00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:12.639
Or I was like, Maybe we'll just have a baby, and yeah, yeah.
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.879
And um, so we had this argument that I couldn't tell you.
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:22.879
I mean, I'm sure it was about I don't feel loved or I do teach, or one of the three things we fought fought about.
00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:34.720
Um, and it was the first time I ever was like, I said to him, like, well, I'll go meet my siblings for a drink, and you'll come to dinner, meet us there for my dad's birthday.
00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:39.840
And I it was the first and only time that I was like, I don't know if he's gonna show up.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:43.840
Like he was not an unreliable guy, you know, that wasn't his issue.
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:45.519
But I was like, I don't know if he's gonna show up.
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:53.840
And there's a photo that my sister's now ex-boyfriend took that night at dinner of the two of us, and like you can see, like he does not want to be next to me.
00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:55.679
Like he is so uncomfortable.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:56.000
Okay.
00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:56.879
He did show up.
00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:02.399
And then so the next Wednesday, June 16th, um, we had a fight.
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:05.120
We had a big fight that morning, which again, we were not that couple.
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.679
We were just bad, we we should have broken up.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:14.399
Um, we had a big fight about domestic labor, domestic inequity, um, and which I did everything and he did nothing.
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:22.000
And um he, I I like we were gonna, we're like, we'd calmed down, we'd like figured it out.
00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:23.440
We went to go watch a show.
00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:29.039
I went to the bedroom, took out my contacts, and like the second my contacts came out, the tears just started.
00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.279
And I came in and he was like, What's wrong?
00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:35.279
And I said, I think we need to talk about what this thing is that's going on with us.
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.159
And he said, No, no, we'll talk about it later.
00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:40.960
And I said, Avoid it, no, talk about it now, exactly.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:41.519
Avoid it.
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:42.639
And he was just like, didn't want to.
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.600
I'm sure he was like, Can you make this woman stop talking to me?
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.279
And I there was like some other stuff that was going on where I knew I had a car.
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:50.960
We lived in Queens and I had a car.
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:59.759
So I knew my dad was gonna come visit us in Queens the next day and drive with me and my brother and his girlfriend to my mom's house on Long Island.
00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:07.919
So I knew that like if something happened, I I didn't have to drive myself from Queens to Long Island crying.
00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.080
Like my dad would be able to drive my car.
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.120
Practical, right?
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:12.159
Practical to the end.
00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.399
So I was like, no, um, right?
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:15.279
How do I protect myself?
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:16.320
But you are, that's part of it.
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:19.200
You're thinking two or three steps ahead and protect yourself.
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:19.919
Exactly.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:25.679
And we'd had a conversation, we'd had like a big fight maybe like 10 months before that, where he was like, I don't know if I love you anymore.
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:27.200
And I was like, Yes, you do.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:29.120
Like, don't worry about it, you know.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.840
But it I knew that day that I couldn't do that again.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.200
So I said, Okay, like let's no, we have to talk about this.
00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:39.360
And he just said to me, I don't think I love you anymore, and I don't think we should have a baby.
00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:43.759
And I was like, that makes sense because that's how it feels.
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:51.519
And I took off my engagement ring and I said, and I telling you, this is my my 100% truth.
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:56.000
I saw what I now understand or I believe is a Scottish road.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:04.240
I thought it was an Irish road, and I saw this beautiful country road, and I saw the clouds part, and I thought, oh my God, my life is gonna be amazing.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.000
Like I knew that in that instant.
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:06.720
Wow.
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:07.279
Okay.
00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:08.559
And I just knew it.
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.839
And I put my ring down and we had a really lovely night together.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:20.400
Like we packed up my stuff and we talked and we cried, and you know, he held me, which was like not a thing that we did, and and it was fine.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:26.160
And I called my sister, or I think my sister texted me, and I was like, I think we just broke up.
00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:29.519
And she called my dad and she was like, you know, everybody was like, Are you okay?
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.240
And I was like, I'm okay, you know, and it was sad.
00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:46.160
And you wake up for the next week, you can't breathe because the person that you've been with for a decade is suddenly not in your life anymore, and you just can't believe that you used to know exactly where somebody was all the time, and now you have no idea about their life.
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:53.200
Um, but I drove out to, you know, my dad came the next day, and we all drove out to Long Island, and uh, you know, that was it.
00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.480
I I saw him, I've seen him now two times since then.
00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:01.440
I had to go back and get my stuff, and that was that was the end of their relationship.
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:07.359
So, by the way, I just want to inform listeners that Jenny now lives in Scotland.
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.559
So her reference to Scotland was very intentional.
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:16.000
And I am very much a believer in signs and synchronicity and have seen so much of that in my own life.
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.160
So amazing, first of all.
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:26.400
Um, but again, it sounds like this, you know, this relationship, the unraveling of it allowed you to step into a new version of yourself.
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:31.680
But why do you think, you know, you'd written um that leaving feels like losing?
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:34.640
Like was that what was holding you there for so long?
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.960
Because you said, I mean, you ignored essentially your partner saying, I don't think I love you anymore.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:39.279
Right?
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:40.400
Where was that coming from?
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.759
What were you anchoring to to keep pushing through the relationship?
00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.799
I think it's really complicated to know when to leave.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:51.440
And it's I'm very good at quitting jobs um because they give you big signs, right?
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:54.400
My boss was like, I'm gonna, you know, take away your raise.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:55.839
And I was like, Well, I'm leaving.
00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:58.000
Like a good time to leave.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:03.359
But I think with relationships, it's hard to be like, well, I'm not gonna leave because of that.
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.200
I'm not gonna leave because of that, right?
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.480
It's all these small, these, you know, death by a thousand cuts.
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.519
Like, and I feel like that was the problem.
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.799
And it it was a it was a good girl track.
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:16.079
Link to each other.
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.000
His parents were very nice people.
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.079
He can't I I knew that he wasn't gonna be abusive or scary.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:26.079
Um, and that was a big thing for me, especially thinking about having kids.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.519
Like, I knew that he wasn't gonna be a bad dad.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:36.960
Retroact retrospectively, he probably wasn't gonna be that great of a dad, like, you know, involvement-wise, but he wasn't gonna hurt anybody.
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:44.160
Um, and so there was like all of these things of like, and then you know, I I liked our story and I liked the all that we'd done together.
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:49.519
When you were are with somebody from your the time you're 23, like you grow up together, right?
00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:00.000
And there was also an element of when uh my sister had had her kids, uh, we were together for about I don't know, three years by then.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:02.480
And I said to him, Are you gonna be their uncle?
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:10.160
Because I have uncles and aunts that came into my life later on or were around but weren't married, and they never became like aunt whatever.
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:12.079
They just kind of were always name.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:13.599
And I said, Are you gonna be their uncle?
00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:15.519
And he was like, I want to be uncle name.
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:16.799
And I was like, Great.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:26.079
And then my sister got divorced and my ex-brother-in-law moved and doesn't come back very often to visit and see his kids.
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.960
And I was like, I don't want to take another man that these kids love away from them.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:44.640
Like it broke my heart to do that, and so it was like not that not that we had kids already, but we had nephews that that they still call him Uncle Name because to that them, that's his full name is Uncle, you know.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:49.200
And so, and whereas my husband now, they're like Thomas, they just call him Thomas.
00:20:49.759 --> 00:21:07.519
And you know, he's he he prefers that that works for him, but like you know, I think that it's just it was really hard to leave that and to feel like if it never felt like anything rose to the level, and it felt like, you know, the he was from a different culture, so maybe he just understands things differently.
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:14.480
But I think that and that that first time that he said that, which was about 10 months before, I was like not ready to hear it.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:20.319
And that's why I always say, like, I couldn't have left a day earlier because I just wasn't ready to hear it.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:21.039
Yeah.
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:26.480
I think what I hear in your story is something I see in a lot of, you know, overperformers, high achieving women.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:36.480
The role becomes the self, the role that you have for everyone else and and everything that you're doing, it becomes the self and it becomes very hard to unravel from who you are and what you actually want.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:42.880
And we had this big social circle and like like career circle, like everything was just very enmeshed.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:44.799
And it was just hard.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.640
Uh you know, you go from being I graduated college at 21.
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.680
I was kind of in a stupid relationship from 21 to 22.
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.720
And then from my whole adulthood had been with him.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.440
Like, I'm just gonna give that all up because like what?
00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:59.839
Like, because he doesn't make dinner, you know what I mean?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.599
I mean, it's like actually if you kind of get into what it means when somebody doesn't make dinner, like that might be a reason to leave.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:06.559
That might be enough.
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:06.880
Yeah.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:11.759
So what was it like then, Jenny, to, you know, you're still overseeing at this point.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:13.119
Other people's biggest moments.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:14.079
There's weddings, right?
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:15.119
All these beginnings.
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:15.920
I mean, it's raw.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.000
It's like putting salt in the woo wound in a way.
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:27.519
But what was it like to be unraveling your life, you know, in the middle of trying to also help other people begin theirs?
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:32.799
You know, they think you have it probably all figured out in that realm and you're really going through something so big.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.519
Well, it was always weird to be doing wedding, being a wedding officiate and not having been married.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.079
Like I always was like, I feel bizarrely about this, but you know, people still hired me.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:51.759
By then I wasn't doing much officiating, but I was working with my sister at our social media company, and one of our bigger clients was a company that made vow books.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.079
And so I was like deep in weddings and that.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:02.000
And she always tells this story where, like, after my ex and I broke up, we had a family event.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.720
That was why we went to Long Island, a sad family event.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:13.839
And so for the first time in 30 years, my mom and my dad and my stepdad were all in the same in my the house that I'd grown up in.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.960
That like my dad had first time in 30 years.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:17.519
Yeah.
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.920
So my mom and my stepdad live there, obviously.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:23.200
But my dad hadn't been invited into the home in like 30 years.
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:23.599
Wow.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:29.200
And so we're all and and and the thing that had happened was he had put his cat down.
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.880
And so we were having a funeral for the cat and my relationship on the same day.
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:33.839
Oh my goodness.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:34.400
Yeah.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:34.960
Yeah.
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:42.000
And so we're like eating bagels and like I'm crying and sort of like pinging between my two dads, like putting my head on their chest.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:54.400
And um, my sister, like at some point, looks at me and she's like, I don't know why she said it then, but she said something like, Oh, by the way, we have to do this work for this client, this wedding client.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:56.319
And she's like, You growled at me.
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.400
You like made a growling sound at me.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.319
And I think it was then that we were like, We gotta get out of this.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:05.519
We gotta get out of this business because it was too hard.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:09.759
It was too hard to like continue and like keep thinking about that and talking about that.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.160
And I've I've very much come to the other side of it now.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.359
And I've, you know, I would be very happy to perform a wedding now.
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:19.119
But it was, it's a really hard thing to be in that place.
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.359
Um, and you know, I was so excited as a middle child.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.039
I had been so excited for my wedding.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:28.160
It was like the first time in my life that it was ever gonna be about me.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.119
Yeah, and I didn't even get that, you know, because of COVID.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:42.000
So it was it was a lot of loss and it was a lot of grieving of what I thought my life would be like and where I thought my life would be and who I thought I would be spending it with.
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:44.240
Um, there was a lot of grief there.
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:50.079
And like I said, there there was like a week where every morning where I woke up, you can't believe this is your reality.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:51.039
That's how I felt.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:56.400
Like I'm in my bed at my mom's house, like where I don't have a home, you know.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.599
And I kept talking about, you know, I have to get an apartment.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:04.160
And my mom at some point was like, we know, we know you have to get an apartment.
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:10.559
But I like needed so badly to ground myself in the fact that I was going to have a life.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:19.119
And I went one night to Target, like late by myself to Target, and I bought towels because I was like, what no matter what my life is gonna be, I'm gonna need towels.
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:25.359
And I'm gonna keep living, I'm gonna keep having a life because it just felt like it had all been stripped away from me.
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:40.559
And it went literally went like I watched videos that I sent to my friends Marco Polo's, like from earlier that day, where everything was fine till then like my I left everything in that apartment, like my whole world just gone overnight.
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:41.759
Very weird feeling.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.599
I can imagine.
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:45.920
But now, right, you're on the other side of it.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:46.319
Yeah.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:51.359
And I want to talk a little bit about Fresh Starts Registry and why it exists.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:26:00.880
But I think it's so interesting that you started on one side where you were truly, again, more culturally, societally, right?
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:06.640
What we celebrate is weddings and relationships and all of the new things in the beginning.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:24.160
But I think what you're doing now with Fresh Starts Registry, it's even a bit more beautiful because I think getting people to the other side of, like you just said, where you you had to fall apart first before these amazing things became possible, before Edinburgh became possible, before you keep referencing your husband, right?
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:25.839
You met the man that you were supposed to marry.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.160
Yeah.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:33.599
So Fresh Starts Registry, to my understanding, exists because you and your sister were both inside endings around the same time.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:33.920
Yes.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:35.359
Tell me about that.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:35.680
Yeah.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.799
Her marriage ended two weeks after I got engaged.
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.680
Oh, her marriage ended in 2019.
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:51.440
And uh a couple months after my uh ex-brother-in-law left, like so they lived together for a couple months, you know, as people do, and he moved back to where he is from.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:27:00.319
Um, my ex and I went over and we sort of helped her clean out the house and we put an alarm system in and did all the things.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:07.279
And we went home that night and she wrote down in her diary, like, this is when I need this is when people need things.
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:09.279
I like this is when you need support.
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.400
Wish there was a place for people, it would be for fresh starts.
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:14.240
And she wrote down, I want to start this company.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:15.839
It would be called Fresh Starts Registry.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.680
Like she wrote her now, like, I know.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:19.920
And she came to me and she was like, I want to build this.
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:23.759
And I was like, it's this is 2019, so this is pre-pandemic.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:26.960
I was still I was traveling a quarter of the year for work.
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.279
Um, I was engaged.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.519
Uh, we hadn't worked together, she and I.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.920
And I was like, I don't, this is a great idea.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.160
I have no idea how to make this happen.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:37.519
Just table it.
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:43.119
And then when I when my relationship ended, I'm sitting on the floor of my apartment with my laptop on my lap.
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:44.559
I have no stuff, right?
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:51.359
I have to buy a mattress, every plate, every cup, uh curtains, like anything that you could possibly need for an apartment.
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:52.160
I needed.
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:59.599
And I hit buy on like a$10,000 cart worth of stuff, which is funny now because now most of it's in storage in New York.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:01.200
Um great.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:10.799
Um, and so um I hit purchase and I called her up and I was like, that idea that you had, you know, two years ago is a really good idea.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:11.920
Let's bring it back.
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:16.720
I ordered a table, I built the table, I put my laptop on the table, and I built the website.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:23.920
Like, and so that that was sort of how it came to be was just the two of us figuring out, you know, what we needed, what we could do.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.039
And it's really developed over time of what the website offers.
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:29.759
It's obviously much bigger now than it was five years ago.
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:35.200
Um, a lot more blog posts, a lot more resources, a lot more experts than we had five years ago.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.880
I think we started with 20 experts and we have over 160 now.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:42.799
So, you know, it's just become this its own thing.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:58.799
And we're so grateful to get to make it our life's work because even as a seven and a nine-year-old, when our parents were getting divorced, we wanted to support and be supported and help other people and connect with other people that were kids going through divorce, but now we want to do that.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.640
And, you know, I think it's funny what you say about the the through line.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.920
When I was a wedding efficient, my brand was called Cheerleader for Love, because that's what I believed in.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.240
And I am the cheerleader for love, like I still am.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:16.160
Like there's so much joy, and I always say you have no high idea how high the ceiling of your joy is.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.519
Like, and you can't know that if you're in the wrong relationship.
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:24.160
And that might mean therapy, that might mean counseling, that might mean divorce.
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.960
I don't know what it means, but it is worth exploring.
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:36.480
So there's a specific kind of cultural silence, I think, around innings that are not death.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.240
Yeah, you know, divorce, break.
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:39.279
What's that?
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:40.720
Say that again and death.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:41.680
Yes, and death.
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:43.039
Yeah, yes, there is.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:46.640
But but I think like divorce, breakups, engagements, right?
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:49.920
The engagements that don't become marriage, so broken engagements.
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:52.640
You obviously created a space for these people.
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:59.200
So talk to our listeners a bit more about what you think that silence, you know, not having a space, costs the people inside of it.
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:01.759
Yeah, I think that it costs us a lot of dignity.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:03.920
And I think that it's really uncomfortable.
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:11.680
One of the things that we've observed is that people don't want to grant dignity to people who are going through those large life changes.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:20.240
Um, there's a lot of responsibility and like personal responsibility put on it, and you should have known and it's your fault and failed marriage kind of nonsense.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:26.400
But I think people also really don't know how to speak about it because they are afraid that it's going to be contagious.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:36.400
And I do think that divorce is contagious because I think that if you watch your friend get out of a marriage that's not working, you might start having some ideas too if your marriage is also not working.
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:40.000
I don't think divorce is contagious for people that are in happy marriages.
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.880
Um, I always say like happy marriages don't end in divorce.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:45.599
They just don't.
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:47.200
That's a paradox.
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:51.680
Um, and so I think that people are just very uncomfortable with it.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:53.119
They don't know how to talk about it.
00:30:53.359 --> 00:31:00.160
They don't know if when they talk about it, it might reflect poorly on their relationship or their marriage, or they might have to take action, right?
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:17.680
Like if you see your friend leave a marriage that's a lot like yours, and then you look at yours and realize they're a lot alike, you might feel frustrated or compelled, but unable or you know, guilty that you can't or won't leave in that moment.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:20.480
Um, and I think that that's uncomfortable for people.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.839
They really don't know what to do with that information.
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:34.319
You know, it's funny, like we have a podcast called Divorce Happens, and a friend of mine was going to um talk to a large re a large podcasting network.
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:36.079
And she was like, Can I tell them about you?
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:37.599
Like it would be cool if they picked you up.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:38.559
And I said, sure.
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:42.319
And so she did, and they said, Well, it's kind of a niche issue.
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:45.680
And I think that that's how people think of divorce, is that it's a niche issue.
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:49.759
Niche issue when it occurs to more than half of the population.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:53.519
Half of the population for first marriages, 70% of the population for second marriages.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:54.480
For second marriages, yeah.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:56.640
Yeah, so it's it's not a niche issue.
00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:00.079
And I think that that's just how it is not pretty.
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.880
Um, and I I it is not traditionally pretty.
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.119
Like I think I actually think divorce is beautiful, right?
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:19.599
But I think it is considered not pretty, and people do not want to look at it because it it if we subscribe to the Judeo-Christian concept of what life is about and we sort of take in that idea, marriage is the ultimate, right?
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:21.599
Marriage is what you should all be working for.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:22.960
I don't agree with that, obviously.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:24.720
As a company, we don't agree with that.
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.039
And so if you step out of those bounds, it is very uncomfortable for society.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:35.519
Like, we do not want to see women who are single, and we saw that in the last presidential election, right?
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:39.039
Like they had a lot of things to say about women who are not married.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:42.880
And so I think that it just makes people wildly uncomfortable.
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:44.079
They don't know what to do with it.
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:49.440
There is still such a very intense narrative around divorcees.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:56.160
You know, I think of like it hasn't changed that much since Mad Men when Helen Bishop was the town pariah.
00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:02.559
Like, I think we still see women, you know, navigating their husbands away from the divorcees at the party.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:14.400
It's it's very wild the way, the regressive way that divorce is still treated and the way that we still talk about it of broken families and as if, you know, is divorce good for children and things like that.
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:15.599
Like it's dated.
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:16.880
It's a dated conversation.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.119
And um, Olivia and I are just not having it.
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:20.319
We're not here for it.
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:22.160
And I love that you are not.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:35.839
Uh, this goes back to I I talk a lot about validation dependency, and it's what keeps women, especially, I think, rooted in these marriages, in these relationships where they don't leave.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:40.240
They simply do not leave because they are afraid of losing their status.
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:45.359
They're afraid of, to your point, becoming the pariah that they shouldn't have to be in 2026.
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:57.359
And I think communities like yours that bring those women together, because really what you need in that instance is you need other people who are going through the same thing that you are that normalize your experience, that validate your experience.
00:33:57.680 --> 00:33:59.440
Yeah, and stories that you can see.
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:06.319
Yeah, we always say we just want to make divorce boring because it's just another life transition, especially if you have children with that person.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:08.800
Like it's just a it's just a transition.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.559
You're still gonna be co-parenting.
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:12.400
It's just a relationship status change.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.239
It's not that interesting.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:20.880
Um, and we don't want those women to be feel like gossip, you know, or like they're crazy and everybody thinks they're crazy.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:26.719
The great thing about when everybody thinking you're crazy is that you can do whatever you want and go live your joy.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:28.400
Yeah, live your joy.
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:29.599
Live your joy.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:30.400
It's great.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:35.119
Well, I'm gonna close it with one question for you before we tell people where to find you.
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.679
So let's go back to that version of you who was sitting on the apartment floor.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:40.960
What does she know now?
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:42.400
Almost five years later, right?
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:44.559
Yeah.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:51.440
That she did not know then, and not the advice, but what is the thing that this Jenny knows in her body?
00:34:52.320 --> 00:35:02.320
I know what it feels like to be loved now because I'm able to accept it from the people that that have always been loving me, but I'm um I'm able to really feel it now.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:07.519
And I know that I know so much more about community and support than I did then.
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:08.800
That is so beautiful.
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:10.320
And that's what's on the other side.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.280
So for those of you listening who might be in this situation right now.
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:13.760
Yeah.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:21.199
And for those of you who again are are looking to potentially work with Fresh Starts Registry, you know, Jenny, where can we find you and Olivia?
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:22.639
What's what's your information?
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:27.920
So you can find us at Fresh Startsregistry.com, spelled exactly like it sounds.
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:31.519
Um, and we are everywhere on social as Fresh Starts Registry.
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:34.400
We I am on social as Genevieve Dreizen.
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:35.440
Good luck spelling that.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:40.880
Um, if you want to find us on social, you can also find us at Olivia and Jenny on Instagram.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:46.559
Um, and we uh, you know, any place you need to find us, um, we will be there.
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:51.440
You can get me at Jenny J-E-N-N-Y at Fresh Startsregistry.com.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:58.719
Um, if you have any questions about anything um with the company or making a registry or finding an expert.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:35:59.519
I love that.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.079
And we'll of course put this information in the show notes too.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:03.679
But thank you so much, Jenny.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:05.760
It's okay.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:07.679
I I have a long maiden name too.
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:08.960
But it's great.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:10.079
It was great to have you on.
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:13.760
Thank you for your in your your authenticity and your vulnerability.
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:15.039
It was a great conversation.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:15.920
Thank you, Jenny.
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:17.199
Thank you so much.
