When Everything Falls Apart

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Speaker 1: This is the Sports Illustrated Boxing Podcast. It's boxing a look inside boxing when Sports Illustrated's Chris Manx interviews, analysis and everything going on in boxing. And now a man who I wish was called the Boston Leader. It's sort of like getting punched in the face. Christa Medix. All right, welcome back to another episode of the s I Boxing Podcast. On this episode, I've got a great conversation with Keith Idex, senior writer over at Boxing scene dot Com. Keith and I talked about the latest in the Canelo negotiations. Tea female Lopez, he is boxing at top ranks, offer to fight facilit Lomachenko. We talk a little Mike Tyson versus Roy Jones, and are we buying an Adrian Broner returned to the hundred thirty five pound division. All that more with Keith I A little bit later on Carl Frampton, the former two division champion. He is scheduled to return to the ring on all Is fifteenth. That talked to Carl about his preparations for this fight during a pandemic, as well as how he feels about Jamal Herring and the possibility of fighting Herring for the thirty pound title a little bit later in the year, so stick around for that great talk with Carl Frampton. Quick housekeeping note. If you like this podcast, there is one very easy way you can support it. Head over to Apple Podcasts, post a comment, leave a rating. It's simple, it's easy, it's free. It's the best way to make sure that we keep doing this podcast week after week. That's it, all right, onto my conversation with Keith idek all right. Keith ide is here, senior writer Boxing Scene dot Com friend of the podcast, recording from his basement in New Jersey. What's up, Keith? Hey, Chris, what's going on? So you were just tell from the Jersey but yeah, from your office, from your office where you didn't have power, right, Like, is that what you just telling? Like the storm took you out this week? Yeah, just we didn't have it for about or sixteen hours or so. Came back on early this morning, thankfully. But I bet your phone still rings and Rick Reno still calls. Absolutely that that never stops. As long as the phone is functional, that never stops. You know, that's my guy. Come on, there you go, there you go, Rick Reno Boxing Scene. Um, all right, Keith let's jump into a few topics here, and I want to begin with Canelo Alvarez and we are now into August, and the scheduled date for Cannello to fight his return fight was September twelve, and I guess is still September twelve, but that's looking less realistic by the day. You've got opponents out there saying they're ready to fight Canello, from top level guys like Calum Smith to lower level guys like Jay Quigley and Toronto Johnson. Meanwhile, there seems to be some kind of standoff here between the Zone and Golden Boy. You had Greg Smith, the lawyer for Cannello alvaret Is, coming out and saying we're just waiting on the Zone to fulfill its obligations. Austinia had something comparable to say, what do you make of the drama which seems like yearly drama with Canelo Alvarez Boy? Drama is the right word, Chris. I think both sides are frustrated with the partnership at this point. I understand it from both perspectives. I can see Canelo's point, You signed me to a contract where I'm supposed to make this this amount of money for each fight. If you have regrets about that contract, that's your problem, not mine. So I see it from that perspective. I also see it from the Zones perspective, in that if we're gonna pay you an excess of thirty million dollars, even if they've cut the fee a little bit uh than it normally is, it's still going to be an excess of thirty million dollars overall to pay his opponent. Him and Golden Boy, they're gonna want to fight better than Toriono Johnson, Jason Quigley. No offense to those guys. I mean, you know they need something better than that. And Sergey drev and Schenko of course, is off the table now because he's fighting Jamal Charlo. Um. You know, I would like to see him fight Collen Smith is I'm sure you would. It give Canello at least an opportunity, an opportunity to legitimize himself as a one hundred and sixty eight pound champion. Callum Smith is undefeated. Of course, he didn't look great in his last fight against John Rider, but Um, I would like to see that above anything else at this point that's available. You know I was interested in seeing him fight Billy Joe Saunders, that's now off the table. Um, But Billy Joe Saunders gets up and down for his levels of competition, and I think he would have given Cannello a reasonably good fight. I don't think he would win. I don't think Callum Smith would win either, but I think both of those fights are at least interesting. Um. But from his own's perspective, if they're gonna pay this kind of money for Canelo Albarez, they're not gonna pay for low level fights just to keep him busy, in effect, So that's a real standoff right now. And I know the fight. I'm sure you feel the same way, Chris. The fight is not going to happen September twelfth. Um, there's no magical, uh reason for this to happen September twelve. I mean, he fights on Mexican Independence Day weekend because they draw big crowds in Las Vegas. A lot of Mexican people come there by tickets to his fights, have a great time. They can't have fans of the fight. So it really doesn't matter if the fight September twelfth or October nineteenth, or whatever it might be. I have a feeling to fight, will be in October or November, whoever he fights Um And it's it's gonna be interesting here because it's getting ugly because, as you said, his Canello's attorney is making public statements against the Zone, criticizing the Zone. Um. You know, I've heard from people internally at the Zone that they're you know, they want a good fight, and they and and they've given them enough money where they feel they should be able to go make it happen and figure it out. What do you think is the biggest obstacle to making the Callum Smith fight right now? I mean, I'm assuming it's money, but how significant do you think the gap is? Because I'm with you, Callum Smith is you know, maybe not a super fight, but you can make a strong argument he's the top and sixty eight pounder in the world. Canello is gonna return at hundred sixty eight pounds with that secondary title that he won off Rocky Fielding. Uh. Callum Smith as recently as this past weekend has been very public about wanting that fight. I mean, how big a gap is there between what Callum Smith wants and what Golden Boy And by extension to Zone is willing to offer, I think the gap is small enough that they can close it and finalize the deal. Ultimately. I believe that Callum Smith will be reasonable about this. I think he's not going to make anywhere near the amount of money that he'll make to fight Canalo albas to fight anyone else, it will be substantially more than his minimum. You know, more than twice what his minimum is UH for his contract. With that he's that he hearn and UH and match Room Boxing. So if he's gonna get double his minimum, with the understanding that we are in a pandemic and and some things have changed financially, with some revenue streams unavailable at this point, I think Callum Smith will be reasonable. And I'm not saying he's being unreasonable. You want to make the most amount of money possible for what will be the biggest fight of your career, um. And he has some internal knowledge of what you get paid to fight Canelo Alvarez because his brother fought hum of course, so UM. So he's not looking to get short changed here. But I think they will come to an agreement on this fight, because honestly, I don't see the Zone and I'm sure, you've heard a lot of the same things, Chris. I don't see the z own approving an opponent like Jason Quigley, Toriano Johnson, or anyone like that, because it's just not the type of fight that is going to bring subscribers back to the fold or satisfy subscribers who have maintained or frozen their subscriptions throughout the pandemic or whatever. So they need a fight that's really gonna generate some buzz and some interest, and Callum Smith is just a type of opponent to do that. And I have this argument with Sergio Mora all the time. Sergio believes that the Mexican audience will tune into Cannella no matter who he fights, and I vigorously disagree. I mean, I think you can't just throw Canello out there against a vastly inferior opponent and expect his fans to come back and watch him by the hundreds of thousands. I don't see that happening. So I think Callum Smith um not in on September twelve, think you probably want to give it a a little more cushion to promote an event like that, and maybe you know, cross your fingers and wonder if by October, maybe November, you can get fans in the stands and get that revenue stream or some of that revenue stream back for a fight like that. But I think that's the fight that ultimately has to happen. When it comes to Canell's relationship with the Zone and Golden Boys a part of this as well. I think where they all really screwed up is not making the Golofkin fight last September. I mean, that was the fight to make and the time to make it. Golofkin was coming off a win over Steve Rolls, he knocked him out. He had some momentum. Canello had just outpointed Danny Jacobs, he had some more momentum. Making that fight in September would have satisfied an obligation that Golden Boy has to the Zone to make that fight and would have gotten do Zone off Cannelo's back about that fight, because that's the fight that they need to have happened on the platform. You need to have Canelo Golofkin three, and you know, if Golofkin somehow wins, maybe Cannello Golofkin four down the line. That's why disown brought these two fighters into the fold. That it didn't happen in September, I think is bleeding into all this now. In other words, if Cannello had fought Golofkin in September, I do think it's just my opinion, I do think that the Zone would be a little more lenient in who he fought during this pandemic in September because that fight had already been provided for them. Chris, I agree. I mean, honestly, there's plenty of blame to go around, uh, but it's utterly ridiculous that we're still talking about that fight not having happened. The third fight between them is why both of those guys got nine figure contracts from the Zonne. You know, Canello is a much younger fighter, so obviously has a longer shelf life. Even though he has a lot of fights for a thirty rold fighter, you know, still has some physical prime left. He's he's the biggest star in the sport, biggest active star in the in the United States anyway, the biggest active star in the sport. Uh. Glovkin obviously it has star power of his own, but he's thirty eight years old. The longer they wait for this fight, I think, the more it's to Canelo and Alvarez's advantage. And I just can't believe that we're still talking about this fight not having happened. It's it's it's incredible. A lot again, a lot of blame to go around. The Zone should have gotten you know, John Skipper should have gotten it in writing that these guys would fight. I mean, there's no Unfortunately that was a mistake that was made. If you don't have contracts that state that they are going to fight each other, you're running into this situation now. And now you have Gannadi Glovkin demanding that his zone honor his contract, and from his perspective, rightfully. So you know, he's gonna fight Camille's Aarrametto, which is a fight no one wants to see, but he and he's gonna be paid to, you know, an eight figure some for that fight. That's not good business for his own So you know, I understand why they would want him to fight Canelo instead, but he's standing his ground on what he feels is an agreement that should be honored. Um So, so here we are still talking about this fight not happening. It's incredible, it really is, because you know, the older glove Can gets, I think, the less competitive the fight will be. And and for the Zone, it's it's not so much about the outcome of the fight, it's about what people think about the fight going into it, right, because that's what drives subscribers people to watch. It's like, I mean, the Derreb and Chenco fight was a fight of the year. It was great, but I don't think it drove people to watch in the build up because derrev and Chenko, even though he had one very good fight against Daniel Jacobs, was something of an unknown commodity. The Zone needs people to be excited about Aloftkin versus Canelo. They neat people to believe that Golofkin versus Canelo is a competitive fight. Now maybe they will in January or February or even next May if Golofkin comes out at some point this fall and just Clapper's Camille Zero Metta, which is possible, Like I Zara, Meta is not a power puncher. Glo is not gonna have anything coming back at him, so we can just attack and see red and go out there and pick up a knockout. So maybe that will build some momentum for the fight. But if for some reason Golofkin struggles in that fight, even if he wins, I'm not sure what to make of Canelo Golofkin in one. I don't know if the buzz will even if there'll be any buzz for that fight. Yeah, Desera meticn fight can serve a real purpose, Chris, and that if Glofkin goes in there and blows him out, it will make the Alvarez fights seem more attractive because you know, it'll say, well, you know, he is a lot better than people may be realized. Although I don't know why they wouldn't have realized that because of the day Jacob's fight, And I'm not saying anyone expected the dog fight that we saw last October five, but you know, I don't know why people would have underestimated drvyn Chenko going into that fight. But um so so I'm not criticizing him for that because he fought an elite middle weight and it was a very close fight, probably could have gone either way. But you know, if he beats Zarametta the way that I think that he can, it will help the Zones cause. But it will be very costly, you know, and and an environment where you're trying to save money, you're trying to behave responsibly with with the money that's available. Um. You know, spending fifteen ish million dollars on Nadi Glovkin Camille Zara Metta is not a good investment, um. And but it's something that they're stuck with contractually, and I think that they're going to wind up honoring. Yeah, I agree with you. I think Zara Metta Galofkin happens at some point in the next three months. Canello will fight somebody in the next three months. And if you're on the just the best outcome possible. I guess if Canelo scores a big knockout, Galafkin scores a big knockout, you know, the pandemic lifts by the time we get to early next year, and you can have that fight. But it is costly to your point, and there is a pretty big risk. Uh. Speaking of costly, Da Femo Lopez Vassili loma Chenko, this is a fight that you know, Top rank had targeted for early October. It's a fight that they had on the books before the pandemic hit. It's a fight that I think a lot of people expected to be made relatively easily. Uh. Top Rank got through the Loma Chenko side, it seems like fairly quickly with his side of the deal. But here we are with Tea Femo Lopez, who has balked at taking Top ranks original offer for that fight. Obviously, the offer was lower than what it has been what it was in the past, because there is no live gate for this fight, at least there's not expected to be, so the finances have changed. But Lopez seems pretty dug in that he's not going to take this fight at the offer Top Rank made. You've spoken to Bob Aaron recently spoke. You've covered the story pretty extensively. I mean, where are we do? Are we optimistic pessimistic about this fight happening? Well, I'd have to be pessimistic at this point, Chris, and that if I'm tia Fimo Lopez, I'm not. I'm not accepting a package in the neighborhood of one point two million dollars. It's overall altogether, it's a little more than that, but not much more than that. So if I'm him, I'm not fighting loma Chenko for that money. Uh. And I understand where Aram is coming from. He's not going to lose money on the event. He can only pay. You know, he has to satisfy Loma Chenko's contractual obligate. You know, the obligation he has to Loma Chenko, who, from what I've been led to believe, has accepted a little bit less than his contractual minimum for this fight. Um but he's still making between three point five and four million dollars in that in that area. Um So, he's making three times as much as Lopez would under what's been proposed. Uh So, credit to Loma Chanko for not demanding his minimum and saying I won't fight unless you pay me the minimum for what would be a big fight. But I also understand it from Tima Lopez perspective. This is the big fight of his career. Now. I know he's not looking at it as a fight he can lose, but it is a fight that he could lose, and so he should be paid. What if I'm him and I know that uh Shakore Stevenson was going to be paid somewhere around a million dollars to fight Miguel Mariaga, I would like to know why I'm going to be paid two dollars more or maybe a little bit more than that to fight arguably the best fighter in the sport. So he so I see it from both perspectives. There's no easy answer because some of the revenue streams have been removed from the mix here and Dave mcwater, Lopez's manager, said something to Steve Kim yesterday that he understands that we're arums coming from there. He's not blaming it solely on Arum, but he's basically saying, if ESPN really wants this fight, they're gonna have to come up with more money or to female Lopez is going to fight someone else next. Yeah, And one way that ESPN money could come in I would suppose if the college football season winds up getting scrapped, because if college football is out on Saturday nights, ESPN is going to need tent pole programming on a very visible evening of the weekend. There's not a lot of options out there. I mean, you're not gonna put baseball on there. Uh. The NBA is going to be back, but you know, who knows what their schedule is gonna look like, uh in uh in September, and certainly they're done in mid October. Uh so, yeah, I mean I think ESPN may have to strongly consider, you know, guaranteeing a little bit more money in that contract. But it's tough for them too. It's tough for every network that's out there as they hemorrhage cash with this pandemic kind of on going. Let me ask you this is is a solution to this putting the fight on pay per view? I mean, I don't want to see the fight on pay per view. I think it's better off being on ESPN. Linear, gets more eyeballs. It's the biggest fight of the year or one of the biggest fights of the year, certainly at this point. Is putting it on pay per view and telling Lopez if it does well, we'll give you more money. Is that a possible solution. It's a possible solution, Chris, But it's very risky from Lopez's perspective because frankly, I don't think the fight would do well on paper view. It's a great fight. I want to see it one of the biggest fights in the sense that from a matchup perspective, it's one of the biggest fights of the year. From a commercial perspective, it isn't because Loma Chenko is not a proven pay per view commodity, and neither is Tia female Lopez. So it's it's an alternative for sure, and it might ultimately be the way that the fight is offered on pay per view. ESPN Plus is another route they could go. I mean, it's a five dollar per month service, so it's a lot cheaper for fans and be much happier if it was on ESPN Plus. But that then an ESPN would of course have to absorb a lout of the cost. And speaking to what you mentioned, I'm a big college football fan. I believe you are as well. Um, you know, you don't want to see an entire season get canceled. But if you're a boxing fan and you don't really care about college football, you want the college football season to be postponed, you know, canceled or postponed or whatever, because there would be a lot more money available to ESPN and in turn, a lot more money available to Loma Chenko, Lopez, Bob Aram and everyone involved in this fight. And I think we could see the fight. If the college football season is canceled, we will see that fight on ESPN. I believe a lot of on the network. M Yeah, I mean, look, nobody likes to see my Boston College Eagles go seven and five Minike car Care Bowl as much as as I do, so I'm hoping it continues. But certainly we saw as we record this, Yukon became the first FBS school to cancel it's season. So that may be just the first domino to fall. And we don't need to get into a whole, you know, trip down the COVID lane. But we've seen in boxing it's not easy to keep the virus out even in bubble like environments, and you're talking about kids in school, and that's that's even more difficult than playing a sports. A lot of contact, a lot of possibility for sure. For sharing this. So your your gut feeling at this point when it comes to Lopez and Loma Chanco with the information that you have, would be what my gut feeling is that the college football season is going to be at least postponed, probably canceled, if I had to guess, because even here in New Jersey, Chris not to go down a college football rabbit hole, but here in New Jersey there was a massive outbreak on the Rutgers college football team. That's going to happen in a lot of programs. So I don't really see the college football season happening because, as you said, these are amateur athletes technically there there are not going to be students on campus. So how do you have a college football season when students aren't you know, students aren't allowed on campus, but players are allowed to play. That's the kind of a strange message to send. So I would expect that the college football season will be scrapped in some form, and then we will see the Loma Chanko Lopez fight on ESPN that they're negotiating publicly for now, which I know Bob Aaron would prefer not to happen, but but that's part of the business and it and it happened sometimes, so so I think they'll wait a little bit longer. And again, there's no they shouldn't be married to October three, just like the Zone shouldn't be married to September twelve or Canelo. So I think there's some especially if there's no college football season, you could put it on any Saturday in October theoretically, So I think we will ultimately see that fight, Lopez will get closer to, if not what he's looking for, and thankfully, I think we'll see that fight sometime in the fall. You know, along those lines, I mean, we are immersed in a pandemic right now. Unemployment has spiked. You know, people don't have the disposable income that maybe they'd had this time last year, even earlier this year. And yet, you know, boxing weirdly, the only way to make significant fights might be to put these fights on pay per view. I mean, we've seen showed Time with their schedule, their significant fights, all of them are on pay per view. Same thing with Fox. What we know about it's schedule at this point, it's significant fights are going to be on pay per view. I wonder how they'll do. I mean, at some point, you know, even the almost ardent of boxing fans gets, you know, pay per view buying fatigue just doesn't have the sixties seventy eight dollars whatever it costs to put up money for these types of fights. But you know, financially, the only way to get significant fights to happen might be to put them on pay per view. It's a weird kind of not what the word is, but it's a weird set up the way it is right now with you know, no crowds and box need to maximize income going to pay per view, but fans maybe not having as much money to spend on the pay per view. So what do you make of that? Yeah, it's a slippery slope there, Chris, because you want to be understanding to people who are having tough times financially during a pandemic, and you know, in your heart goes down to people who don't have their jobs, you know, boxing fans, non boxing fans, of course, I mean you you feel terrible for people who don't have you know, money to pay their bills, let alone disposable income to use on pay per view fights. But the reality is that some of these fights would not happen will not happen if they're not on the pay per view platform because they're the fighters have a certain expectation because of the market that's been established, and they're not going to do it for what's available within the budget of say Showtime or Fox or all the zones on the pay per view platform. But um, ESPN, you know, the the money is not available in the budgets to put those shows on either basic cable or a premium cable or in the case of Fox Free TV, which would be the best case scenario. Um, so the fights have to go to pay per view, and I look, it's a risk for everyone involved because Jamal Charlo and Jamal Charlo, while polarizing guys that draw reactions from fans, who are in very difficult fights that they could lose. Um, they're not proven pay per view commodity. So this is a risk for everyone involved. They're getting their guarantees, of course, but they're being paid percentages of the upside. Uh. Same goes for Javonte Davis, who you know they think will be a pay per view star, another very polarizing guy who knocks people out. Um, you know, he's fighting an established fighter who is, while a big underdog, a proven commodity because he's won world titles and four weight classes and uh, you know. But but it's very risky. Chris, I agree with you, because you run into the this problem where you're having entirely too many pay per views in a very short span, which is why it would be best for ESPN to put Loma Chenko Lopez on the network, or worst case scenario, putting it on ESPN Plus as opposed to ESPN pay per view. Um, but yeah, you really run the risk of fatigue. You know, people are just people are not gonna every week or every other week plunked down seventy five dollars to watch a boxing match on pay per view, And as you well know, Chris, some people just steal all of them and it doesn't make a difference to them. Well, what do you think that ESPN and Fox and by extension, Top Rank and PBC are thinking when it comes to Wilder and Fury, Because the target date, at least for now is mid December. You put that fight in mid December, it will come at the end of a long line of pay per views. And look, that fight underachieved the first time. There reason, There's plenty of reason I believe it would under achieve again based on the result of that that second fight between Wilder and Fury. Add all that together, I mean, do you think there's any possibility we could see that fight kicked to some point early next year to get away from this pay per view cycle or do you think they'll just put it on at the first available date that they believe they can get fans back in the building. It's a weird scenario, christ and that doing a pay per view six days before Christmas is in in normal times, Moron. That's another good point. Yeah, the christ the holiday between Thanksgiving and Christmas. After all these papers, it's like everything is working against them for that date, right, and they're they're talking about December nineteen. It's literally six days before Christmas. You know, people might be traveling to Las Vegas or doing things that they don't ordinarily do the week before Christmas because things might be freed up by then. But based on the trends of COVID nineteen, I have no reason to believe that by I know, December is still four you know, still four plus months away, But I have no reason to believe that fans are going to be allowed at the fight by then. My best guess, and of course I'm just guessing here, is that that fight will be pushed sometime into one and then you run the risk of the guys being rusty because they won't have fought for so long. I mean, you know, if you if you put that fight in February, of course you're running up to a year from the time they previously fought. Not ideal for either guy. Um for better for Deontay Wilder because he had surgery on his biceps and you know, give him time to recover and whatever training changes he's making in terms of personnel or training tactics. I mean, it gives them more time to get ready for the fight and it'll be healthier. But but yeah, December nine, December, December twelve, whichever date they picked there, I think is asking for trouble because, as you said, Chris, it's at the end of a very long pay per view cycle, which will include at least probably four paper views before Wilder Fury three. It's a bad idea. UM. I understand the urgency to do it because intra actually this fight is owed to both guys, so they want to get it off the book, so to speak. But December nineteen, sometime in December there does not seem realistic to me. Yeah, I feel like somebody whoever is guaranteeing all the money, whether it's the promoters or the networks in the second or the third fighter, should say, uh, somebody might take a big bath financially if if those guarantees are significant that big and Chris, they took a big beth with the second one. You know, I guess a bigger right, Yeah. I mean, I don't know how big the bathtub is going to get, but you know, but Top Rank lost a lot of money on that fight. Al Hayman lost a lot of money on that fight. Um. They promoted it really as well as they could have, and I think they were disappointed that it did in the eight hundred thousand rangers so and that you know, pay per view rise trickle in sometimes for upwards of a year. UM, but it didn't do as well, particularly with all of the marketing, and uh, they really I mean there were ads during the super Bowl for this fight, which was unprecedented. It's never happened as far as I can remember for a boxing match. I've never seen it that's available to over a hundred million people. There was no one nobody that would have wanted to know that didn't know about that fight. And UM, for it to have done in the eight hundred thousand range, while that's successful in comparison to any other pay per view fight in this era, it's not successful based on how they marketed the fight and all of the money and time and energy that went into that. And I think one thing you have to remember to to your point about how much time and energy and marketing they put into it. They are probably not going to have the marketing resources at their disposal in the fall like they did before. Um, you know, who knows if and when the NFL starts. Who knows if and when college football starts. Uh, the NBA is gonna be done in mid October. So even if you put on ads during the finals, it's a long way between the end of the Finals and Wilder versus Fury three uh plus. Like, I can't imagine networks that are losing money on advertising revenue committing free spots, even if it's a thirty second spot in the finals or a thirty second spot during a December playoff game. Every spot, and this is what kind of gets lost sometimes in the shuffle. Every spot that a network gives up, that's money they're not taken in, and they're hoping that it, you know, pays off in the end with bigger pay per view buys. But if I don't see this time around, I don't know about you, but I don't see this time around these networks eagerly willing to give the kind of free at inventory that they have their disposal as they were they were the first time around. What you're saying obviously makes sense, Chris. I just don't know that they almost have to though, right, I mean, because then you're asking to do even less. You know, the second fight was such was so one sided. And I'm not discounting Deontay wild there's chances in the third fight because he's one of the most definition devastating punchers in the history of boxing. So I don't think you could count him out of the fight. I'm not saying you could be confident that he would win the third fight, but I don't think it's some foregone conclusion that he's going to go in there and get stopped again or you know, be very one sided him, lose a decision or something like that. But um so I'm interested in seeing the third fight. But if they don't put the marketing muscle behind it that they did for the first fight, now the super Bowl, depending on when the fight happened, super Bowl commercials and everything might not be available. But the point being, you know, I don't know that they could go about it in a lesser way, because then that's asking to lose even more money than they lost on the first fight. So there's no easy answer there. But what you're saying makes sense. But I don't think they're gonna just say, hey, well, you know whatever, if it does four thousand, it is what it is, because there's so much at stake here, and as you said, these networks are already losing money. Um, I don't know. I don't know what the answer is to that, but I do know that there, based on the by rate of the first fight and what's going on in the world, I can't see any way that they would even break even for the third fight. Yeah, the trick I think in promoting it is going to be trying to find a way to sell the public that Wilder has a chance to win. Now, you and I both know that with that type of one punch power, you're still in every fight. And we've seen heavyweights going all the way back to George Foreman who have one big fights based on that one punch knockout power ESPN and Fox and top rank in PBC. They have to convince an audience though, that a guy that was just so one sidedly destroyed has that chance. That is gonna be a test. I think of promoting you know skills of Bob Aram and the marketing skills of ESPN uh and of of Fox. Let me ask you about what's coming up in September speaking of a need to market a fight. Uh, Mike Tyson and Roy Jones. All right, the two fifty plus year old former champions. Uh. They are allegedly going to meet on September twelve in California in an exhibition match. Eight rounds, no headgear, twelve ounce gloves. I believe I have those particulars right, Uh, and they're gonna meet in the ring. How they meet in the ring is an open question. I mean, Andy Foster of the California State Athletic Commission has said to anybody that will listen that this is not going to be a real fight. That if these guys start throwing haymakers at each other, the referee Ray Corona is going to step in and tell them to knock it off. Meanwhile, you've got Mike Tyson and Roy Jones clearly trying to sell a fight and sell pay per views saying that they're gonna knock each other's block off. So I'll ask you, Keith, what do you make of Tyson versus Jones? And do you believe that at some point a real fight is going to break out? Well, at a pay per view price point of fifty dollars, Mike Tyson and Roy Jones are just saying what they have to stay. What else are they gonna say. They're not gonna say, we're gonna go in there and just you know, like dance around each other for a few rounds because no one would buy it. But it really speaks to why this shouldn't be happening or it's or it certainly shouldn't be on pay per view for fifty dollars. I mean, if you want to charge one knee bucks or something like that, it's much more reasonable. But they've guaranteed certain amounts of money to Mike Tyson and Roy Jones, so they can't be or whatever. It's less than a regular boxing pay per view, but it's far, far, far far less than a real boxing match, so so it should be a lot less even less than it is. But um, look, people are still fascinated with Mike Tyson. We've discussed this before. Was I think they'll be fascinated with Mike Tyson long after he's gone. And I understand that to a degree, but um I expected him to fight Evander Holyfield in some sort of exhibition. I was sort of surprised when it was was Roy Jones when I found that out. But you know, two of the biggest names in boxing history. Uh, but it's not even a real exhibition. If okay, I would say, if it was a real exhibition and they were trying to beat each other, that's that's one thing. But it's not even that. So what is it? I mean, there's not gonna be a winner or loser. They're not scoring the fight. If you can't score the fight, they're not scoring the fight. And you can't knock out your opponent. What is it? That's not even sparring like they're saying, oh, it'll be like a sparring match. I've seen a lot of sparring matches, and Jim's all all over the place, and guys are trying to beat the crap out of each other. They're not going to be allowed to beat the crap out of each other. Now people are saying, oh, you know, Tyson, he's a little nuts, more than a little probably, And if he snaps and he goes after Roy Jones and blah blah, blah, they're just going to stop if he does do that, they're just gonna stop it immediately. So and and credit to Andy Foster, who basically has put as big a buyer beware sticker on this event as he possibly could. And credit to him because I'm sure he probably didn't even want to go along with this in any way. Um any and frankly he didn't have to, but um at least he's letting people know that if you spend fifty dollars on this, just realize what you're getting here. And anyone who buys it. Look, people are free to do with their money whatever they want. People to all kinds of crazy things and waste money in various ways. But if you spend fifty dollars on this event, you do not have You can't complain. You cannot complaine. You just don't have the right to complain because you know you've been warned by multiple people for the entire build up the event that it is not anything resembling a real fight. So if you buy it and you just want to see Mike Tyson and Roy Jones in the same ring together, okay, but you just can't complain about it based on what you get, which I can't imagine is going to be much. No, do not grumble. Do not grumble on social media. Do not complain to your friends about what happened there, because everyone that knows anything about this fight, from Andy Foster on down is telling you that it's not going to be a real event. That I've seen on social media for some fighters, I saw Ryan Garcia tweet out something like I've never never got to see Mike Tyson in a real pay per view. It's like, well, you're not going to see him in one now that that's for sure, Like that's that's not gonna happen. I just look, I would encourage if you are looking to buy this fight, I would encourage you to first go on YouTube and find the exhibition Mike Tyson did with Corey Sanders where Mike Tyson literally held Corey Sanders up after hitting him, wants to make sure he didn't fall down. Like there's this could be significantly worse because both these guys are so far past their prime. It actually amazed me that Roy is only two years or moved from actually fighting a real fight. That that I've had forgotten about that too to an extent, but this isn't going to be be a real thing. I mean, I the the I don't know. The only thing that could happen that could raise a level of excitement would be as if Tyson catches Roy wants right before he can get two out of hand, if he just swings catches Roy has been knocked out by far lesser punchers, especially in the latter stages of his career. If he catches Roy once, maybe that's your highlight, real moment, and maybe maybe that will get you to the point of acceptance of paying that fifty dollars. But if you're looking for a brawl, it's not gonna happen. Like the Commission has been very clear, they will not let it happen, no matter what these fighters are saying. Well, full disclosure, Chris. I'm ashamed to admit that I was in Youngstown, Ohio the night that Mike Tyson fought Cory Sanders. Here you go. But but what I you know, if you're looking to see Roy Jones get knocked out, go on YouTube. You can see it all over the place. I mean, you know, Glenn Johnson, Antonio Tarver, But yeah, I mean there's there's you can see it, I mean, and in real fights, he was not cold. If for some reason that that interests you, you can see it as many times as you want. Um, I just don't. I don't understand. Look, I don't. I just don't understand why people would buy this. Um. And now you know that one of the things that you would think would be a good revenue stream for them would be the gate because you think people would you know, they would make the tickets reasonably priced and people would come watch it. Well, people can't even come. So why it seems like an odd time to do this event in the middle of a pandemic before there are going to be somewhere between three to five real pay per view fights, including one just two weeks later. And that's another thing unfortunately for the for the Charlow Showtime pay per view. You know, this Tyson Jones thing could take some buyers away from the Charlo event because some people are going to side between the two. The Tyson event is, even though it's not a real fight, is less money. They'll find other ways to stream the Showtime event, which they might do anyway. Um, but it's it's just a weird time for that event to happen. It shouldn't be happening ever, probably, but but it's a weird time for it to be happening right in the middle of this pandemic when fans can't attend. So um, yeah, just just so many things that play there. Chris that that makes no sense, but I don't. I honestly didn't know what Trailler was until I found out that they show. Sure, that's not surprising to you, but I did it. Was not aware of Trailler. And at least they're making it available on regular if you do want to buy it, and you don't have to use this app and you know, watch it on your phone or what, you know, whatever other device you would used to watch it. But I don't know. And the other thing that that could be interesting here is Trailer has never done a pay per view event. They have no experience doing real pay per view events, or they're going to be all kinds of technical issues and everything. And I'm not saying, you know, they know their business obviously, they've built it up until them. You know, it's worth a lot of money and all that, but doing a pay per view event and marketing a pay per view event event the right way takes experience and they don't have that. So especially when you're you're selling sort of like a circus in some senses, and they don't have any experience doing it. So there's no there's no real promoter involved in this. Uh it was it like Island Promotions is somehow involved, which I believe is a Roy Jones Outfits Pensacola based. Uh, the trailer is uh, you know, running the show there. But I mean, if it's true. And again I preface everything by saying if it's true and allegedly, because I'm still not buying that this fight actually happens, but if it's true that they're putting up fifty million and guaranteed money for this, and I'd encourage people involved to make sure that money is an escrow accounts somewhere because I want to be sure of that before these pay per view buys start rolling in. I mean, that's I don't know how you get that money back. I think there will be people interested, but marketing is going to be difficult. You know, you don't have traditional platforms. I guess you're kind of relying on Tyson's Twitter account, you know, Jones's word of mouth, and you know the boxing community finding out that Mike Tyson's back in the ring and being interested in this event, But I don't, I don't know. I agree with you. It could take buys away from the Charlot Brothers, which is an interesting pay per view to high level fights like we talked about on one pay per view. It's pretty good value if you're looking to to spend some money on a fight, and Tyson Jones could certainly take away from it. It Also it reminds me and one of our favorite PR people, Kelly Swanson, had this tweet after the Tyson Jones UH announcement came out, wondering why boxing people were discussing Tyson Jones and not writing about the showtime calendar. Well, isn't it an indictment of what boxing has done in recent years that Tyson Versus Jones still has writers like you, me, Kevin Ioli who broke the story, others running to their laptops to write about it and get details about it. I mean that that, to me, isn't in a reflection on the writers. It's a reflection on boxing and that Tyson and Jones still does more traffic and generates more interest than any fights that could be announced or are being announced in boxing. Yeah, I mean and Kelly's cases, she's just protecting the brand so to speak. I mean, she's obviously works for Al Hayman and and does promotion for PBC on Fox and PBC on Showtime. So I don't you know, I understand she says that's fine, but um but at the same time, people remain fascinated with Mike Tyson. And as much as I would prefer for this not to exist because I don't think any good can come of it in terms of boxing's reputation, there are there's no bigger name in boxing now and maybe never will be again then Mike Tyson. So he's fifty four years old, he has not boxed in if you if you count the Corey Sanders exhibition, fourteen years, but people are still fascinated with him. Chris and and you know, we discussed this the last time I was on the podcast about people saying that Mike Tyson could come back to win a heavyweight championship with the world And I don't mean beating Trevor Bryan for the w b A interim title. I'm saying beating Tyson Fury or Anthony Josh or Deante Wilder if he were to come back and win the titles. I mean, like the real champions. People believe that. I mean mainstream sports fans that don't follow boxing all that often they believe that Mike Tyson still. I don't know why you would believe that based on what happened in his last two real fights in two thousand four and two thousand five, But there are people that believe that. And if there are enough of those people who still want to see whatever is left of Mike Tyson and whatever kind of fight this actually is, you know, maybe they'll do more pay per view buys than we expect, but I don't Fifty dollars is not a small amount of money to see something that you know is not a real fight between a guy who hasn't fought in fifteen years and a guy who shouldn't have fought in fifteen years. So um, you know, good luck to them, and we have to write about it to some extent because because because boxing fans and non boxing fans are interested. And I'll say this, the traffic on our website for those Roy Jones Mike Tyson stories, especially when the story first broke in the and the and the stories that follow, stories that were written after that. They generated a lot of traffic because because he's Mike Tyson, and you know, Roy Jones is a huge name in boxing too. He's not as much of a name, you know, outside of the realm of boxing as Mike Tyson, but he's a pretty big name also. So um, but again, if you buy this pay per view event, good luck to you. Yeah, I just know what you're going to get out of this pay per view. I'm with you on the traffic stuff too. I mean, I'm down here in Orlando covering the NBA. When this fight was announced, I went running to my back to my room to write about it because I know there would be genuine interest in Tyson versus Roy Jones. And I'm sure I'll be writing about it in the days leading up because people want to hear about it, people want to read about it, and even if we're critiquing it, I mean, it's still something that I think is worth writing about in the build up. Let me finish with Adrian Browner, and I bring him up because he talks a lot, and not all of it, In fact, most of it isn't very good, But Brunner has been inactive since January of two thousand nineteen, has been very inactive over the last three years, fighting just sparingly and not winning much at all. Uh since his move up from a hundred thirty five pounds, he's now making some noise about moving back down two thirty five pounds, And it piqued my interest, Keith, because while his level of competition at one thirty five and below was nowhere near what it was at what it is at one thirty five and above or above one thirty five, he still strikes me as a guy much better fit for the lightweight division than he is for one forty or one seven. Now, like you, I'm sure I have my doubts that he can actually make a hundred thirty five pounds, but him saying he wanted to fight back there again and do it full time that interested me. What was your reaction to Broner suggesting he could return to lightweight. Well, no one sells himself better than Adrian Broner, right, I mean, he he's not fighting on a hundred and thirty five pounds. He can barely make a hundred and forty pounds, and and that was has been an issue for him. He's older now, he's there, you know, he's he's another one of those guys Chris where he's younger than people probably think because he's been at the top level for so long. He's been a high profile fighter for quite some time. So's I believe he's thirty one years old now. Um, he's not making a hundred thirty five pounds. I know that. You know that, it's just not physically possible. You know, he's older now and he and he's had a lot of difficulty making a hundred and forty pounds, So he's not going to fight at one if he if he were able to do that, if I thought that was a legitimate possibility, yeah, throw Adrian Broner into the mix with all these young guys at lightweight and let him fight one of those young up and coming guys. Um, but I'm not sure he would do that. I mean, he said Adrian Bruner gonna fight Ryan Garcia or um, you know Tiafimo Lopez or someone like, you know, someone at that level that that there's a good chance that he would lose against that. I don't know. I think he's I think he's going to fight older, more established fighters where he would make a lot of money and at least have some chance to win. I mean, you know, but he's been very inactive. Um. He hasn't fought since he fought Pakia, which is a year and a half ago basically. Now. Um, he made a lot of money for that fight. Uh. I know he has a lot of financial obligations to his children and and you know, other other issues that he's had in his life and everything. But uh so it's not like he's not going to fight again. Um. But I've been told that he's going to come back sometime in January. Um. I haven't heard anything about opponents or anything yet. I think he's gonna come back somewhere between one forty seven at some sort of contracted catchweight fight a reasonable opponent. I don't think anyone that necessarily will beat him because he's gonna be shaking off a lot of rust. Uh. But to Ton, the short answer to your question is no, I do not think he'll fight a hundred and thirty five pounds ever again. But we will see him back in the ring, I think, Uh, you know, at the very beginning of you know, when it comes to Broner. My question is often what was he ever good? Right? Like, he was popular, you know his ratings reflect that, But I'm not sure he was ever good. And I don't look at the number of divisions he won championships, and I mean that's just that's all just kind of goofy. There's so many titles you can go out there and win. If you look at his resume at one thirty five and under, what's the best win on it? Is it Antonio de Marco? Is it been sent to Ascobado? I mean, there aren't a lot of are any real you know, mega names on that resume. When he moved up, he didn't beat any of the guys that he fought at one forty one forty seven, those catchweights in between. I've often one like, was he just like perfectly matched in his rise from the one twenties into one thirty five? Or was it when he jumped up his lack of his inability to take care of himself and to not blow up in between fights and control the drinking and control the partying. Was that what ultimately took him down? Whe Where do you stand on that? Yeah? I mean I think, uh, some of his behavior outside of the ring contributed to him not realizing his potential. He's a very talented fighter. When you ask his was he good, Yeah, he was certainly good. Was he great? I don't think he was ever great. His win against DeMarco, I think, which was an Atlantic City I believe in two thousand and twelve his best win at lightweight. I think that he won the WBC lightweight title, I believe from DeMarco. So um, so that was a good win for him. But but yeah, I mean most times are every time really when he stepped up against the top of Cone and he lost, uh, you know, Sean Porter, Manny Pacquiao, Mikey Garcia. You know, he's lost a lot of these fights. You know, there's some other fights that you could argue that he lost age people. Some people think he lost Adrian Grnados. I mean, Gronado certainly feels that way. Um you know, that was a close fight that could have gone either way. You could certainly argue that Broner won Jesse Jesse Jesse, Yeah, Jesse Vargas, which was after the Granados fight, so um and and Vargus is a very good fighter. So and Granados I think is not as good as Vargas, but but a but a tough guy who never stops coming and has given a lot of other opponents trouble. But they're certain, but he Adrian Grana is not an elite fighter. And Adrian Broner was still in his physical prime. He still is when he fought Grnados a couple of years ago. So, um, you know, you could certainly pick apart Adrian Broner's resume if you want to. And uh and and like you mentioned Chris the thing about him being a four division champion. I don't blame it on Broner. I mean, he's just taking advantage of the system that's in place. But he's been very well promoted, very well marketed. Um, you know, I feel bad for Broner in the sense that I do think he deals with some mental issues and some emotional issues that he had that you know, and you know, you want to have compassion for somebody when you feel that they are, you know, they're struggling in their lives, and I think there's been evidence of that on social media, so I try to take that into account. Um, but he is he can be a funny guy. I mean he can he can certainly do things that that kind of make you cringe. He's done the plenty of that, um, but he can be an entertaining guy and he's certainly a polarizing guy, and the ratings reflect that. And that's the most interesting thing, Chris, because whatever anyone thinks of Adrian Broner's resume and what he's accomplished in the ring, every time that Showtime puts him on the air, the ratings are very good. And that's not a coincidence. People want to see Adrian Broner now as some of it is the Floyd Mayweather effect. They want to not putting him in the category of Floyd Mayweather is a as a fighter, of course, but they want to see him lose. You know, they're not as many people are, maybe more that want to see Adrian Broner lose that want to see him win. So you know there's something to that. As long as you're gonna keep drawing ratings, they're gonna keep paying you. Now, if he starts getting knocked out and fight says he gets older as he gets into his mid thirties, if that starts happening, well, then I don't know that people will be as interested in watching him fight. But for now, I'll say this, if he comes back and fights on Showtime on in January or February, the ratings will be better for that fight probably than any other fight that Showtime will televise from now until December. And there are some good you know, there's some solid fights on. There's some good fights that. Uh, that Donair while he fight is a very good fight, but Broner will do better ratings than that despite not having fought in a year and a well two years at that point, and not having one a significant fight and how long. Yeah. Um. One thing about Broner that I try to keep keep in mind too, is that beyond the cartoonist kind of behavior, the vulgarity of press conferences all that, like, there's a lot of depth to him. I remember going to his training camp in Colorado Springs before he fought My Donna when things start to really go downhill after that, and just spending time with him there and you know, getting to know him and his journey like how he came up. I mean it was it was rough, man. I mean, he's got a really compelling backstory about how he got up until this point. It's just kind of starting to slip away from a little bit. And look, if he comes back at a catchweight, I would assume that the plan would be to get eventually down to a hundred forty pounds. I just don't know what the pathway is to, you know, a high level fight there. I mean, you've got the two champions that are there for the time being, right Like Jose Ramire is gonna get to that Josh Taylor fight, and then he's gonna move up to get to the Jamal Crawford games. Same thing probably with Taylor whenever he's done with that fight. And then when you look at that landscape, you're gonna have those one thirty five's coming up. You're gonna have Devin Hainey coming up. You're gonna have Taffi Me Lopez coming up. Even if you can make those fights, if you can move over to the top rank side, make Lopez move over to the Eddie Hearn side, and make Devin Haney, Um, I wouldn't make him a favorite in any of those fights at this point. I just I can see I can see another run being kick started for Adrian Browner a win in January, maybe another one three or four months later. But when you get to a tough fight, unless something significantly changes, I don't know how you make him. I don't know how he wins those tough fights. You're right, Chris, I'll stay. You know, he's gonna be the guy whose name other guys try to use to build their careers. And and that's where he is in his career now. Now, maybe he gets motivated enough or you know, are you win somehow wins one of these fights in his career could change at that point, but there's no evidence that that's going to happen. But he's still a marketable fighter, and I you know, the thing for him though, is what he would be looking to accomplish at a hundred and forty pounds. He's already done. Mikey Garcia is the best fighter I know. Mikey's a technically a welter weight now, but he's really a forty pounder. He's already fought the best forty pounder and he lost, definitively. He lost. He's you know, at welterweight. He's already fought Manny Pacio. Like, what else is it gonna It's not like people are gonna want to see him fight Rroll Spencer, any of these other welterweights. Um, so he's already done at one seven and what one forty, what could be done? I still think he'll fight at one forty because that's where he's best suited, mostly because I don't think he can make a hundred and thirty five pounds. But yeah, he's going to be the guy like he might be the A side in terms of having a bigger name than the other fighters, but he would be the B side in terms of competition and a guy that they'd be looking to, you, so to speak, to propel their own careers. And that's that's the boat that he's going to be in. Whether he likes it or not, I mean that, you know, but he is valuable in the sense that he's still a very you know, polarizing, well known fighter who draws ratings, and as long as he's some semblance of competitive in these fights, he's going to continue to get big fights. Yeah, I agree. I mean, he's gonna have to, you know, earn his way back into you know, so the upper echelon of fighters, and I'm not I'm exactly sure how he does at this point. I think I think they'll build him slowly in with some very winnable fights right off the bat, but by the second half of the year, if they put him in tough, something's gonna have to give. Something's got to change for him to to win those fights. In my mind, Keith always appreciate it. Man always great stuff. At the very least, it's good to have boxing back and have real stuff to talk about it not you know, pandemic what ifs at this point. Take I'll take that at this point, Keith, I'm with you, Chris. I mean, there's a lot of boxing coming up, you know, a lot of Saturdays where there'll be three cards every Saturday coming up. So other than not having fans at the fights and a lot of other things that we have to deal with with the pandemic, at least we're getting back to some sense of normalcy in boxing. And uh yeah, it's looking forward to it too. Do you do you have do you have a first show that you're planning on intending? Do you have anything on the calendar yet that you're thinking about going to you I'm planning to attend the Showtime show up at Mohegan's Son on August fifteen with David Benavidez against Romarin Gulo in the main event. Um, it's drivable from you know, I live in New Jersey. It's maybe two and a half hours away. You know, we have to go into quarantine and everything up there. So I'm just I'm gonna see how that goes and then go from there. I mean, I'm not looking forward to getting on. I know you obviously, uh flew to Orlando for the NBA. I'm not looking to fly anytime soon if it's not necessary. But uh, but this is a drive I'm going to cover as long as all the showtime fights are at mohegan Son. I'm planning on covering all of those, assuming that the media is allowed. But I am I'm planning to cover that car next week. And uh, I'll let you know how that bubble experiences. I'm sure it's uh a little different than the one you're in down there, which I'm sure is pretty good. Right, Well, enjoy the COVID test when you get there. I'm not sure what they're doing. They've been they've been a little bit lighter on the COVID test here with the shallow swabs. If you've got to take that brain Tickler. I, uh, good, good luck to you. I might not make it to fight night if I have to do that. You know, enjoy Keith. I appreciate your time, man anytime. Chris glove Man coming up next, former two division champion Carl Frampton. All right, Carl Frampton is here, the two division world champion. He is back in action on August fifteen in the fight that you can see live on ESPN here in the US, although he's going to be fighting somebody else that we learned just earlier today. Carl joins me on the show. Carl First, Uh, new opponent, right, I mean, what, what's what's been going on with the opponent. It's been a bit of a mass to be honest. UM. The opponent that originally had is you can't get a visa UM, so you can't get into the contrary. Obviously, things are a little bit more difficult with UM, the worldwide PANDAMIC that that is ong one at the minute, UM, and that's the main issue. But we've we've got other guys. I think that we're talking to UM currently. UM. There's been a guy on standby mt K kind of I thought that this may have been an issue, so They've been paying a guy to trainin for the last four weeks just in case this arose. The situation a ruse which has so potentially it could be him. I don't want to say his name yet until until we got to confirm, but I'm pretty sure I'll have an opponent I will be fighting on on the fifteenth of August. How comfortable are you going to be fighting somebody that you weren't necessarily preparing for. It's not idealized, it, but you know, whoever's coming in will have had the same amount of time to prepare for me as I've had to prepare for them. So um, and I've been training a nip for about ten weeks. So I'm in good ship my way. It's good. I still don't know. I still don't know what. We don't want to be fighting that UM, hoping hoping it to be one thirty. UM, but I suppose if you're getting an opponent then at leett not us it maybe above one thirty. UM. You know, I probably know as much as you at this point, but I'm confident that I will get an opponent very soon. Has been a pretty weird year, huh yeah for everyone. UM it hasn't been great for me either. UM, it's just, yeah, if if I didn't have bad luck, I don't think I have any luck. It's just this is the way the way things are going. UM. And a guy that I'm looking to fight, Jamal Harrain, exactly the same vote as me in terms of miss hoops and things going wrong. UM, So it hasn't It hasn't been a great year. Yeah. What have you been thinking watching a guy like Herring, who you're you know, penciled in to face at some point later this year, possibly in a title fight. I mean, he's not only lost to fight once, he's lost to fight twice. Now he's training for the third time to get into the ring against Jonathan Kendall. What have you've been thinking watching that unfold of the last couple of months. I feel extremely sorry for him, UM, and understand what it's like. And I know Jamal like myself, he trains away from home, he leaves his family, UM, and he goes and trains. He leaves his children and his wife behind. UM. And I'm sure that it would almost feel like a wasted came away from family. Uh, it's gonna be hard to deal with, but I know that Jamal I don't know him personally, but the impression I have of him is that he's mentally a very strong person. Um, and I'm pretty sure he'll be able to deal with it. And the thing with me is in this situation as well, and I feel like I'm mentally a strong person. I think we'll get it sort of. How challenging, Carl, has this year been for you, not just professionally but personally. I mean, having this pandemic, you know, effectively shut the world down. The UK included to me, what have you had to kind of deal with over these last four months? Um? Well, you know, I suppose the same as me. The same for me is that it has been for everyone else. Um. In this game of boxing, obviously there's a lot of things going on at them and I fighting behind closed doors. I was supposed to fight Jamal Haraine. I think during was the proposed it. Um. It was almost all done and then what's happened has happened. I've been I've been looking off that I've got a bit of a gem at home, so I've been training, um, but I've been away. I've been over here on months yester or where where I normally dream with my team night for about ten weeks. So I've got a good kind of solid based behind. I'm fit, I'm ready. I'm really ready to hit the ground running when things just open up again. Well, what kind of precautions are you taking to make sure that the coronavirus doesn't impact your training and hopefully not your fight. Well, the same as everybody else, really, um masks when I'm outing around, Um, why shan hans constantly to the point where they're very sore and they're cracking and dehydrated. But I've also I've also been UM. I normally fly home every weekend, so the flight from Belfast to Manchester is literally fifteen minutes. Um, I don't feel comfortable getting on flight, it's just yet. So I've been getting the overnight furry every second weekend rather than every weekend, which takes nine hours. But you can get a captain. So I get this boat from Belfast to Manchester, I get a cabin. I'm a Lotte. Nobody comes anywhere near me. But I feel like that's a precaution that half the take just to not pick up pick up the virus. How does that does that? Whearing you at all mentally, you know, being alone as often as you are. Um, not really, because I'm used to it and I've been doing my whole career. Um, I don't. I missed my family obviously, I missed my kids, and I missed my wife. But enjoy my own company sometimes, um said, and reading the book, watching about a Netflix or whatever. Um, So yeah, I can deal with it, okay, I can. I can relate to that. I'm also okay with a long day afterno Netflix. That's a It's not a bad way to spend a day. Uh. You know for people that you know aren't in the US, that aren't clear and how things are going over in the UK. What do you see when you go out? What do you see when you're you're around? Um, you know the people over there about how they're treating this coronavirus, because I can tell you in the US we're still a disaster, like we don't know, you know, there's still people that think masks are you know, a myth that that doesn't work to protect yourself there. But what are you seeing over in the UK? Well, I see that. I think it's been a bit of a disaster over here as well. Um, in terms of casualties and and high the government that dealt with it. But where I am at the minute, I'm in man Chester. There's been a bit of a lockdown, not not as strict as it was at the start, but there's been an up surge and the amount of coronavirus spectums and UH and people contracting the disease. So there's been a little bit of a kind of it's not not an extreme lockdown, but there's been a few precautions taken by people. Less people are out in the street, but when you do see people on the street, I would say I would say night Deeper Center, Warren masks Um, And obviously you've got some people who don't want to wear them and don't feel like they need to wear them, but I would say that most most of the population are are taken out pretty seriously. You know, it's been kind of a roller coaster of the last four years. From you you got to kind of the top when you beat Leo Santa Cruz in lost a year later, you come back, you beat Nonito don Air in a big fight and then you lose to Josh Warrington. When you look at the two losses, the Santa Cruz loss in the rematch and the Warrington fight. Did one was one worse than the other or do they both feel the same? I think, Um, yeah, obviously I was upset when I lost both cames. I wanted to win the fights. Um, I was confident I could have won the fights. I think the Warrington fight, for me, though, was the was the hardest one to get over because I feel like I didn't perform at all. Um. I feel like I just feel like it wasn't me and there's a lot more to give and and he won the fight for and square, but I got it wrong on the night, and I feel like that's a fight that I could avenge if if I got the chance for a remoch Aga and the Santa Cruise faith great brilliant fate both of them. Um should have been a third fight, But obviously, um, there hasn't been, which is a shame. But it's through no fault of my own. I've wanted the fight that I was happy to trouble the l A to fathom he knows that his team no that. But Um, the Warrington fight, I would say hurt me more than than a Santa Cruz loss. Did those two Santa Cruz fights. Do you feel like they took anything out of you? I mean they were brilliant fights. I mean fight of the year, uh type contest. Did you know when you go through that twice? Did they take anything out of you? I don't think so. And the you know, you could ask the same question about the Warrington the Fate as well, which was another great fight. Um. But if you would have seen me spar and last night, I hope people talk about this all the time, but I felt like I spoke to my team about it. It's the best I've performed in Spawn in years. I feel like I'm ruling back the years and whether that has to do with the campus changed lately. This time we're doing last round this farm because it was a struggle against farm partners in we wanted to load this far. The British Border Control didn't the lows Farnum up until around four or five weeks ago. UM. So I've been training training smarter this time than normally, and I think that that's that's helped with me. But if you'd have seen me sparing last night, you know, I don't I don't think any you know any of these faces that I've had any of these hard faces. I've really taken anything away from it. You've said numerous times. You just said it again that you know you wanted that third fight with Leo Santa Cruz badly. Why do you think that never happened? Can you pinpointed to one thing or one reason why that third fight didn't come about? Um, there's probably a number of reasons. Um. Ultimately, the fight could have happened if he wanted it to happen. Um. That's that's that's the main su here. Um, there's a there's another reason that I can't really say because it would probably get me in a lot of trouble legally. But yeah, it's just it's a shame. It really is a shame. But I think it will be more of a blotch on his career when we look back retrospectively at the end of our careers and people ask the question, why did the third fight never happen? I think will be more of a blotch on him than it is on me. Have you completely given up hope that could happen? I mean, you are presumably going to be in a world title fight at a hundred thirty pounds at some point later this year. Leo is in a very tough fight with Javonte Davis later this year, but it is going to be for a hundred and thirty pound title. I mean, do you think as any part of you still want that fight, especially if both of you guys come out with winds. Yeah, I want the faith certainly, but I just don't. I just don't see it ever happening. Um. And that's a shame. But again again, I've I've tried, I've tried to help this say that wanted the fight. Um. But yeah, it's just it's just a shame that it never happened. You had said that after the Warrington fight you were considering, you know, your career, would you retire, would you keep going forward? What was that process like and how did you come to the decision to keep your career going? Um? I did. I did reflect kind of over the new year. Um, when when when Josh beat me, I was upset with myself. Um, I thought about I thought about retirement, but I think that me and issue was I didn't want to go out on a fight like that because I knew there was so I was still a better fighter than not performance and I wanted to shoot people that that I am a better fighter than that. Um and I got it wrong in the night. It wasn't a case of me being over the hill. It was a case of me getting my tactics wrong. And I hold my hands up to at and take food responsibility. UM. So that was that really. Once once the thought about that and had that kind of thought process, and I spoke to M t K my team, the deal with Top Rank then came up. And and when my opinion, Top Rank, you know, the biggest promotional outfit on the planet, when they come call on and saying we think we can make your world champion again, We'll give you the opportunity against Jamaal Hering. I had the ticket and I'm confident that I'm confident that I came within the world chomping. Was Herring the fight that you have been eyeballing all along. I know you were scheduled to face him, but you know for the last you know, as you kind of made this second run at a world championship, I mean, was he the one that you identified as as the guy you wanted to fight? Yeah? Thanks so, and it's our names have been mentioned alongside each other for probably about a year, and I so Um, and I knew that he was with top ryank and I knew that. You know, he's looking for opponents all the time. There's a lot of opponents seem to want to fight Jamail Harain. But you know, I'm standing up here and saying that I'll fade him. I'm happy to fight him. Um. He seems like that he wants to give me the opportunity. So there's a mutual respect between me and Jamaal Um and I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty sure that the fight will happen at some point very soon. It's a good division that you're in, especially being aligned with top Rank. It's you know, several of the champions are over there. I mean, it's not you. It might not be just one fight for you, could be multiple big fights over the next eighteen months. Yeah, chi Um, what a fighter. Um probably the number one guy in the division, I would say, but even even someone like Oscar Valdez al Louis not a champion, is a huge fight for me. And and we're talking about me and him fighting as feather wits. We have a bit of a ravel ry. Again, a mutual respect between me and Oscar. But that's another fath that that really interests me before I let you go. Um, it's interesting British boxing politics have been a lot like in the US, with promoters not working together. Recently you've had Frank Warren come out and say Eddie Hern and I should do business together. Tell me, as someone who is over there, how likely do you think that is? Knowing those two parties and what would that mean for British boxing if you know these two fighters can are these two promoters can work together? Well, first of all, what it would mean if the two top promoters in the UK could get their top fighters fighting each other. It would be huge for British boxing and be huge for water boxing. Um. And they can make some incredible match ups. Um. It's interesting that both guys they're normally really at longer heads and criticizing each other constantly. UM. But I think the least interviews that I've seen both of them seem optimistic is if they could try and make fights open, So hopefully aefully something comes off from that and it's not just hearsay and a little bit of talk. Um, but who knows this game? You know what it's like promoters welcome with each other. It's difficult some parents. Hopefully they can all kind of get the gatherer and make the bag fas happing, Oh believe me. Top rank with Bob Arab, don King, you know, even Eddie hern now and then Bob Barrow. I mean it's the politics always getting the way. Uh that that's for sure. Uh. Well, good luck on August, Carl. We are looking forward to it. No matter who you fight there and hopefully in the fall, Jamal Herrying, that's gonna be a huge fight probably here are either or there or in the US. Looking forward to that as well. Thanks for joining me, man, Thanks Chris, all of us. All right, that's it for this week's episode. My thanks to my guests. As always, subscribe to the podcast over Apple podcast rate review. You know, I appreciate it and I'll see you next week. You friend me.