Why Chasing Perfection Could Be Your Biggest Mixing Mistake ft. Bruce Sugar | Bobby Owsinski's Inner Circle Ep. 640

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The best workflow advice is just to not be so particular about everything, to let the feel dictate really what's going on.
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The main thing is getting that feel and that emotion through the music and just trying to be invisible to the technical side.
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That's Bruce Jugar, veteran producer, engineer, and Grammy nominee who's worked with some of the biggest names in music, including Ringo Starr, Paul McCartney, Elton John, Joe Walsh, Mick Jagger, and Ozzy Osborne.
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He believes great music comes from protecting the feel and emotion while using technology as a tool rather than letting it take over the creative process.
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I've been using AI.
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I've had a couple cuts, so I stick them in the pseudo and then I download them into Pro Tools.
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It's insane.
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And it's really helped me in my songwriting because it really inspires you to finish the songs that you started.
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In this episode, you'll learn how Bruce went from engineering sessions to working with Ringo Star for more than 20 years, why feel and emotion often matter more than technical perfection in the studio, and how new tools like AI and Atmos are changing the way music is created, fixed, and experienced.
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Stick around, I'm Bobby Osinski, and this is my Inner Circle Podcast.
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I'm sorry if you get this question all the time, but I I I gotta know.
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You work with Ringo, and I want to know how this happened because you you've been with him for a long, long time.
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But I know you were a fan of his growing up, and then all of a sudden you're working with an idol.
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How does that happen?
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Yeah, no, it's it's a pretty crazy story, but uh originally I was uh contact with a friend of mine who's a songwriter, a guy named Jeff Silbar, who I've known for years.
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We actually worked in Nashville together before I moved here.
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And uh anyway, he was friends with Mark Hudson, who was producing Ringo at the time.
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I think this was 2003, I believe.
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And uh anyway, he was working with uh an engineer named Paul Santos, who also worked with Aerosmith.
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And he was from Boston.
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But anyway, they were doing some overdubs here in uh Mark's studio in Santa Monica.
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And uh he I didn't know Mark, but he asked my Jeff was pitching him some songs.
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Jeff's a songwriter, and he contacted uh and Mark asked him, Do you know any engineers that could sit in for a few days, you know?
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So Jeff called me up, and anyway I got a hold of Mark Hudson and set up the sessions, you know.
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So I w went over there.
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I thought it was gonna be for like, you know, four or five days, maybe a week, you know.
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You know, I got there and then we were doing some uh actually the first thing we did was edited a Eric Clapton solo from from uh it was Ringo Rama was the album.
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And then I think the next day Ringo came in.
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I wasn't sure if he was gonna come in or not, but he came in to sing and you know I got to meet him and uh and here we are, what, uh twenty-some years later, and I'm still with him, so it's it's a crazy story.
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Have you ever noticed that mixing vocals is often the hardest part of getting a track to sound right?
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You boost, you compress, you add effects, and it still doesn't feel professional.
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So to make it easier, I put together a simple mini course on vocal mixing that walks you through the exact steps to get the vocals sounding clear and upfront.
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If you're interested, scan the QR code on screen or click the link in the show notes.
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Now, back to today's conversation.
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What's it like to work with again, an idol?
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I uh that's never happened to me.
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I've met a lot, but I I haven't worked with him.
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I mean, he's the greatest boss in the world, you know, especially when I first started working with him, you know, he was a little more reserved about delving into his Beatle don't, you know, his Beatle life.
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You know, I mean he was you know, he's had f you know 50 years without the you know not being in the Beatles.
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And obviously that's his legacy.
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But uh he's a lot more he's a lot more open now about talking about it, and I think he he embraces that part of his life a lot more.
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Um but yeah, no, it's great working with him.
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He's you know you basically can call anyone up you want, you know, to be on the records and and the course are gonna come and their egos are kind of gone, you know, when he gets, you know, with him in the room, no one's gonna act up or anything.
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So it's it's a really great uh it's a really great situation.
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You know, I've worked with uh him and Paul a few times when Paul came to play on some of Ringo's albums, and uh uh you can definitely see and feel the hierarchy then when Paul walks in the room.
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Ringo Ringo's you can see his respect for Paul, you know, and his respect for uh his musicality and you know what he did with the Beatles, which is interesting.
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Interesting dynamic, which I didn't see with anyone else I'd see uh he's worked with, you know.
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Ringo and Paul, obviously they go back you know, to the 60s, the beginning of of recording sort of as we know it.
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And things are so different today.
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So how how has Ringo adapted?
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Well, he has, you know, and it's interesting because when I first started working with him was was I think was the Ringo Rama was I think the first Pro Tools album he did.
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I remember distinctly, he you know, we sat down and he was like, Look, whatever you do, don't fuck with my performances, you know.
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So it was like, okay, okay, you know.
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Uh and then, you know, little by little, as he really uh understood what it could do, you know, all the editing possibilities and the time correction and you know, too, you know, vocal tuning and all that, he started embracing it a lot more, you know, to the point where, you know, a lot of times he just plays one take now, you know, you guys can fix it.
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So he definitely uh has embraced the Pro Tools world and uh not that he needs it, you know.
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I mean he's his instincts are great and he usually nails it within two or three takes, you know.
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But he does rely on it at times, you know, sometimes he'll m miss a fill or something and he'll, you know, you can fix it or you know, we'll punch something in and uh you know do some time correction or whatever, but it it's pretty rare that we gotta do that with him.
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It's interesting because there are so many people that especially engineers that come from that era that have a hard time adapting.
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Aaron Powell Well, you're right.
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And a lot of uh you know, our contemporaries that we know that have refused to uh learn the new systems or, you know, were just stubborn in their analog ways, kind of got left behind, you know.
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I was always one to really embrace all the newest technologies, even to this day.
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You know, I keep up on all the Atmos stuff and the AI and all that stuff.
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You really gotta stay on top of everything to be relevant now.
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Uh it changes so much, and it changes almost every day.
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It's insane.
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You know, I was working for a while and doing a lot of uh uh TV and radio commercials, uh probably in the 90s, and I think that's when Sound Tools just came out, maybe the late 80s.
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Uh and Sound Tools was the precursor to Pro Tools.
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It was a two-track system.
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But it was the greatest thing, you know, because these jingles, you'd have to, you know, edit ten different versions of things, you know, and cut and tape was, you know, definitely a skill, but it definitely took a lot of time, you know.
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So when the two-track uh sound tools came out, I embraced it right away, you know, and I was like, okay.
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So I got in early on the uh digital recording situations, and then you know, went went from that to ADATs and D88s and on and on, you know.
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I can remember cutting tape on a commercial myself where they asked to get rid of like six seconds.
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So I got rid of the six seconds, and and and the piece of tape like fluttered away.
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And I didn't think anything of it.
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And then after about 10 minutes, I said, Oh, can you put that back?
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And I couldn't find it.
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And it had fluttered back underneath the machines, you know, way in the back.
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But I did find it, but it's one of those things where you panic and you go, Oh, God, no.
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We used to take those out and paste it on the wall.
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I wish I was smart enough to do that.
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Yeah.
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But you know, I mean, you look back on that era, you know, of cut and tape and all this stuff, and it sounds really antiquated now, you know.
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But at the time it was it was the uh state of the art.
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I remember cutting, I remember recording like string sessions, and the composer's like, can you cut out you know eight bars here before we start going?
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So like you know, the the uh string players are all out in the studio and here I am cutting the two-inch tape, you know, and everyone's waiting, you know.
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Yeah, right, right.
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A lot of pressure, man.
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You know, yes.
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There's no redo either.
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Yeah, no, I I I remember that.
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That wasn't fun.
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Much better today, that's for sure.
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Oh man.
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Well, okay.
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Speaking of which, do you mix in the box?
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I do pretty much.
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I'm pretty much in the box now, although I have a few pieces of gear that I'll I'll run maybe the stereo mix through.
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I got some uh this retro revolver, which is uh a uh tube uh compressor.
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And I got a few lexicon items that I run reverbs now and then digitally.
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But now but more and more I'm just a hundred percent in the box, you know.
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They have all those plugins now that that work really good.
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Have you done the comparisons?
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Console to box?
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Um not recently.
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I really haven't mixed on a console.
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I mean, I I mix it here uh in my little studio, and I uh have a bunch of outboard gear that I've used.
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But I haven't done a uh console mix in a couple years, I think now.
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It's definitely, you know, I listened to some of the stuff I've done in the past, and it's definitely it seems the width is still you still get better width out of uh a console.
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Yeah, there's just something about analog.
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It's still can't beat it.
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You can get close, but you can't beat it.
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Well, you can't beat it, but overall I think by the time it f filters down to the listener, they ain't gonna know the difference.
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Yeah, well, that's the whole problem.
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That's it's just like when someone beats you up for, you know, move that hi-hat up, or DB in the chorus, and you go, you you're not even gonna hear that in a week, you're gonna forget all about it.
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Exactly.
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That's exactly right.
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All these you know, nuances in the mix.
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You know, you listen a year later, and it's like, what?
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You work with a lot of well, let's say, legendary artists, and again, they all come from you know that same Beatleish era just after it.
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Do you find that they embrace perfection or are they still going for feel just as a as a whole?
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Uh well depends who.
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I uh you know, speaking of Ringo, he definitely goes for feel, you know, and and he actually we're a good team because you know I'm more detailed oriented, and he really looks at the big picture on everything.
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But he does that.
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And then there's you know the other, you know, I've worked a lot with Joe Walsh, which I mean he's a field guy too, but you know, he's a member of the Eagles, and they're they're you know, they're really into the perfection thing.
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So he kind of balances that from day to day.
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But uh, you know, at times he gets real detailed about about stuff because of I think his life with the Eagles.
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Uh you know, they're notoriously into their perfection of everything.
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I also read that you worked with Ozzy.
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Yeah, I worked with Ozzy for a few years, yeah.
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And there couldn't be a bigger difference between Ringo and Joe Walsh and and Ozzy.
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So uh how was your approach different?
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Uh not really.
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You know, we we basically did the same thing, you know.
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I mean I mean Ozzy was a trip, you know.
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I started working with him when he got sober.
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So before every session, he would like have all these memories come back to him, and he w he'd like just talk for half an hour about, you know, his life on the road or you know, this or that happened, you know.
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He was probably one of the funniest guys I've ever worked with.
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And just is a really great person, you know.
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A lot of these guys, their on stage personas are totally different than them, you know, because he used to when he used to have to go out in public, he was like, Oh, I gotta be him today, you know.
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And uh and he was uh yeah, I was shocked when he died because he was one of those guys you thought would live through anything, you know.
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But yeah, but he could sing.
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I mean he his voice would cut through anything, you know.
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He had a perfect rock voice, you know.
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Real expressive of it and he he was a good lyricist too.
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We did a uh a rock opera that's never been released, which is interesting.
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Uh and hopefully someday I thought, you know, I thought after he passed, you know, they would revive that, but I haven't it's it was about uh Rasputin.
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And it was a really cool project, you know.
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And we recorded like fifteen songs.
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So they really need to get someone to write a a book, you know, for like a a Broadway play kind of thing.
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Is it finished?
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The music's all finished.
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No one's ever you know, I know they were pitching it uh and this was like 2005 or six, I think.
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They were pitching it to Broadway, but you know they Ozzy had to make money, so he, you know, reverted to his his band and doing the Black Sabbath stuff.
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So it kind of got lost in the shuffle.
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But there was like fifteen songs recorded, finished.
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And basically the story of Rasputin, you know, is there.
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It's really an interesting story.
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So someone should do a uh uh treatment on that, I I hope.
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But even so, I'm surprised that that would still be in the canyon.
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You'd think that I'll be released.
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Yeah, I don't get it.
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You know, I I guess it wasn't a priority, you know, at the time, but now that he's uh passed, you know, you think they would try to do something with it.
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You worked in Nashville before you came to LA.
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What's the difference between doing sessions in Nashville and I lived in Nashville like from 1980 to 85, and that was a uh particularly good era in Nashville.
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Uh they were doing a lot of rock stuff.
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I was actually working for a studio called Quadriphonic there, which was mainly doing pop and rock stuff there.
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Uh but I've gone back over the years, uh like once or twice a year to work.
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I think they do a lot more like real sessions in Nashville now with like a room full of musicians, you know.
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Uh which doesn't happen here as much, you know.
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A lot of a lot is a lot is a lot of stuff is piecemeal here.
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You know, people just come into overdub or they do, you know different things and do stuff remotely and but uh I basically learned uh my learning of recording was done in Nashville.
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And it was a great place to learn, you know, because we do live sessions every day, you know, with four, five, six guys in a room.
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I worked for Quad, I worked for their publishing company and they they let me produce their publishing demos, which was a huge industry in Nashville then.
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You know, now that's all gone because of AI.
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You know, all the writers now, the publishers are just saying, you know, put your s you know, do a guitar vocal and stick it into Suno or one of these AI programs and spit out your demo.
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So uh all that work is basically gone in Nashville, which is really a shame.
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That's uh it's a direct uh uh you know result of AI.
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A few years ago, a really good songwriter friend of mine from LA uh went to Nashville to record six demos.
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And when she brought the tracks back, I was like, uh these sounds so fantastic.
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How long did it take you?
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And she said, Oh, a day and a half.
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And I'm really wow.
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Yeah, we used to do uh when I was doing these publishing demos, they'd hire a band, you know, five, six beats band, and then there would be a line of writers come in, you know.
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They'd play their tune, and the guys would write the chart and play it down once or twice, and that was it, and then maybe the next day they'd come back and sing it, the artists.
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But we would do like eight, you know, eight, ten songs a day easily, and different writers, you know, and it was pretty cool.
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It was a great way to to uh learn how to work fast and and the and the musicians were great.
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Um so yeah, that's how they did it.
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I recently had Ed C on you know Ed?
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You know, I know of him.
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We did he worked in Atlanta, I think, didn't he?
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Uh Atlanta before he moved to Nashville, yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think it was in Atlanta when I was there in Nashville.
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Speaking of AI, he was talking about how it has helped in some ways, where you get a a writer that has an AI demo, and they decide that uh they want to redo it.
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And of course, in AI and Suno, you can go in and ask for a little change, and it never is little as you know, it's basically doing the whole thing all over again.
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And so there was a lot of new work as a result of that, where it's like, okay, here's what it sounds like, let's make it better, or change this or that, or whatever.
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Was he doing he was doing a master of the demo, right?
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Or he was redoing the demo.
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Both, actually.
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In different cases, yeah, yeah.
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He said sometimes it was also just an overdub.
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It's like I I need this part on here, so let's come and do it.
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But there there was more work as a result than he would have thought.
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I also talked to somebody in LA, the same things, owns a studio.
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I'm busy with the AI stuff, so who knows?
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I've been using AI, you know.
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I I'm a hack songwriter.
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I've had a couple cuts, you know, but uh I've written like 40 songs, you know, and I'm not really a singer.
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I can play piano, okay, and I do my little demos, and they're not really I don't think they really sell a song like they should, you know.
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So I stick them in the Suno, and then I, you know, you have to end up doing like 20 versions because they never come out exactly like you want.
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And then I download them into Pro Tools.
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You can download the stems now.
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I put them into Pro Tools, then I'll replay, you know, I'll redo the drums and keyboards that I can play.
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But the vocalists they have, they're incredible, you know.
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I mean it's it's insane, you know.
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And it's really helped me in my songwriting because it it it really inspires you to to, you know, finish the songs that you started, you know.
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I have a lot of stuff that's unfinished, and when I hear it with a great singer, uh then I'll rewrite the lyric.
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You know, eventually I'll pitch them to an artist, you know.
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But uh I think it's helpful in a lot of ways.
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I I I'm totally against uh creating everything from Suno, you know, or someone just goes in there and says, Write my girlfriend a love song, you know, about A, B, and C, you know, and it spits out two songs in, you know, 20 seconds.
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You know about the the EU AI Act that just passed, right?
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I've read about a bunch of different, I'm not sure about that one.
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It just passed and it went into effect on Monday.
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And basically what it is is you have to identify and in a big way, if there's something in your song that's been generated by AI.
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And there's a lot of like dialogue editors that are freaking out about this because you know, if somebody drops a line and it's like, okay, let's let's just artificially manufacture this rather than bringing a person in for ADR.
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Well, they can't know because they have to identify it as AI.
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And does that preclude them from use it in different scenarios, or that's the that's the big question.
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No, you can use it, but you have to identify it, like up front and say this is AI generated.
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I mean, that's fine.
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Well, they should do that.
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Uh I'm all f and that's only in Europe or Yes, it's the EU.
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Okay.
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But it also applies to anybody here if it's being consumed in you know Germany.
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Because I've noticed like YouTube has a thing now.
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You gotta label AI.
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That doesn't preclude you from using it for anything in particular, though.
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It just tells you you gotta you gotta identify it as AI, right?
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That's right.
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Now, if you use it for in normal production for something like noise reduction or stem separation, no, that that doesn't count.
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Because I know some music supervisors that will absolutely not take anything that's AI.
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Uh which is good, I guess, you know.
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I mean, it's here to stay, you know, whether we like it or not.
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Uh and it just depends on how it's going to be used, you know, ultimately.
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Um but I've read some where there's like, you know, 75,000 new.
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songs uploaded to Spotify every day or one you know, these streaming services and half of 'em or more than half of 'em are AI now.
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Which is which, you know, in the long run, what it's doing is devaluating the work that we do, you know, the music.
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Let's come back to uh mixing.
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Do you have um plugins that you use all the time, certain plugins you always come back to?
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Yeah, I mean I lean heavily on the UAD stuff because I think it's probably you know the best representation of this of the tools that we, you know, grew up with.
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You know, uh I mean there's all kinds of boutique stuff out there now that you gotta test out.
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But uh you know when I use the UAD like an LA2A I know what it sounds like and I know what it's gonna do.
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So I I lean heavily on that stuff.
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I try, you know, I've definitely tried some of the new things out there.
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Some of the new reverbs are cool.
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But I still use the Lexicon stuff uh from Lexicon.
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Their their plugins are good.
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If I want an SSL uh color uh like the SSL plugins from SSL I use those um I mean I gotta you know yeah well like all of us we have tons of everything you know I mean a lot of times you forget it about stuff you have that's pretty cool you know that oh I gotta try you know use this again because it gets lost in the shuffle you got so many options now it's it was you know in some ways it was easier back in the day you know when you had a console you had you know four LA2As you know two LA2As and some 176s and 480 and you know you had to mix away you know yeah yeah right right tell me about your approach to mixing and and what I mean by that is do you use compression a lot?
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Do you use it on a mix bus?
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Does it matter to you?
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Uh I do use it you know I do use a compressor on the mix bus.
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A lot of times I'll use this uh retro uh box I have here the uh 176 I have that's a really nice uh I use that for vocals actually uh which is a nice thing um but more and more of the plugins are definitely taking over uh and I will use you know some compression on the mix bus not that much EQ and usually a limiter I don't like to really compress too much you know I just hit it uh a little bit but you know mainly the mixing thing is you're just trying to bring the emotion out of uh whatever the artists what's the most fun for you?
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Uh you know what I really love is to get in a room with a bunch of musicians and record live you know that's the way I started and to me that's the most fun really it's the it's the most inspiring uh it's you know it's really the way music was meant to be played with an ensemble uh I also you know I started out doing remote recording when I first started my career and I love that as well you know you don't see that much anymore because people just take feeds off off the console or whatever to Pro Tools but recording live uh is great uh I also love Atmos mixing and I love playing the Atmos mix for the artist in and out in a really great Atmos room which most people never get to hear what it really should sound like you know but when you see an artist's face you know when you hear you know when they're jumping up and down after when you do a mix at Atmos and it's it's uh it hits pretty hard emotionally you know speaking of the Beatles I was invited to a uh a playback session of the revolver Atmos uh mixes and um Giles Martin was there giving commentary.
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And I have to say it was really great.
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It was one of the best mixes because it was very conservative they they used Peter Jackson's stem separation technology so you know they they had from a mono track of guitar bass and drums they could separate the stare drum out you know just amazing stuff.
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But it was really wide and big but conservative there was nothing flying around the room until it needed to be you know I I and I thought this is the way it ought to be was it in a good room you were listening or yes it was it was down at EMI it was in their big room and the it wasn't a dedicated room but they had it tweaked out it was pretty good.
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The one in Santa Monica?
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Santa Monica yeah yeah the mail room was that the one you were in I think so yeah yeah that's where I I do a lot of mixing yeah it's a nice room really nice room yeah I like to uh I haven't heard those mixes yet the revolver.
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I was impressed yeah I think it's um I I'm really totally into immersive mixing I've been into it since 5.1 you know and uh I don't know if it'll ever really take off like it should but uh I think it really gives the uh the option to really spread out a mix where you don't have to compress stuff as much you know and you really hear hear more naturally I was doing five one mixes back when it all started before we even had the tools and um one of the things that happened that was a shame was the the labels are really hot to get all all the stuff you know redone and then when it cooled off they cooled off badly um but uh the one of the reasons was again people at the at home weren't listening to it the way it was intended to be so instead of the especially the surround speakers instead of those being in a reasonable place that you know you'd have one behind the door or something you know yeah well that's the problem with Atmos too you know no one has an Atmos system at home although you know recently when I've been doing these mixes I spend a lot of time on the Bonaural mix which is the one people are going to probably hear more than than a you know in an Atlas room.
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But uh those are great too many they you know you can definitely feel the space.
00:29:07.650 --> 00:29:10.769
What don't people know about you that you wish they did?
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I don't know I'm I don't really I'm much I don't know that uh you know that I write and play music as well because I'm known more as an engineer producer.
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Well that's a good one.
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Yeah.
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You know I've been writing for a long long time but I've you know recently I've just uh you know it's something you gotta work on and dial in more and and like I was saying before the AI stuff's kind of really helped my writing just to be able to hear it back on you know oh how what a what would a reggae version sound like you know and you put that in and that inspires you to do something else you know so uh that's been been something that most people don't know about me.
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I remember working with an artist who was great who you know we'd we'd do something and you go oh I uh this needs to be calypso when we do it all again calypso oh no it really needs to be reggae we do four or five versions and always come back to the first one right a after you know a month and it's like oh it's you know obviously the AI would make it easy.
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Was that a Latin artist?
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No it wasn't it wasn't it was just somebody that liked Latin music.
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Because there was a Brazilian artist way back I used to do a lot of Latin music uh in the 90s and there was an artist that um he would do the same song in three or four different tempos right and then he'd do it in different keys so there'd be like eight versions and then he'd have the shhaman guy come in and pick the right version.
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Yeah.
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At least they picked one yeah right yeah exactly but you know I mean they would you know they'd get down to the little percussion parts and everything they'd do the whole track you know before the guy would decide you know okay last question Bruce well you've been doing this for a long time obviously and you you've connected with a lot of very interesting people in your life what's the best piece of advice that maybe somebody imparted to you or maybe you learned yourself along the way.
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I mean the best workflow advice is just to to not be so particular about everything, you know, to to to let the feel dictate really what what what's going on you know I'll you know because most engineers when I came up you know you want everything to be perfect and everything aligned right and you know if this guy did you know if if the if you heard a buzz you had to stop the session you know but now it's like you know the main thing is getting that feel uh and that emotion through the music you know and and just trying to be a uh invisible to the you know the technical side should be invisible to the creative process.
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So that's an important thing.
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I know a lot of engineers would would disagree with me but but uh I think you just gotta keep the session moving along and not not let uh you know your technical issues rule the session.
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I mean at times you gotta you know if the lead vocals go out you might have a problem but I couldn't agree more.
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Yeah I know that uh you know Rango tells a story of the Beatles were doing this they're rehearsing at one point and they did it they finally did a tape.
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He didn't tell me what tune it was but it was like oh man this is the one of the best you know versions we've ever done and they found George Martin wasn't running tape you know so it was like they were so pissed and from that on from there on they've always ran tape.
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So that kind of stuck me too I mean especially now with everything digital it's like just have stuff running all the time you know because you never know when that magic's going to happen.
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Thanks for listening and being in my inner circle.
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Remember if you have any questions or comments you can send them to questions at Bobbyosinski.com and also learn all about the latest in music audio and production news and find out about openings for my latest online classes at Bobbyosinski.com.
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This is Bobby Osinski.
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I will see you next time