BR089 - Lark, Security Tradeoffs Masterclass, Bitcoin Quantum Risks, WabiSabi Deanonymization, Core Txn Broadcast, Better Wallet Migration, Scaling Bitcoin, Bullish Sentiments + MORE ft. Craig & Rob

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Hello and welcome to the Bitcoin.review podcast, where we explore developments
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and projects with the people who actually make them happen.
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The show is supported by Pod 2.0, SaaT Streaming and CoinKite.
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If you're a new listener, I'm NVK, I run CoinKite, where we've been helping
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people secure their Bitcoins for over a decade.
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We make the cold card and fun products like the Block Clock.
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You can find more information about it on CoinKite.com.
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Hello and welcome back to the Bitcoin.review. Man, it feels like a lifetime
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now, because we haven't been doing too many panel episodes in between things.
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And it's been like, what, two, three weeks now since the last one.
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I'm losing track of it.
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Today I have with me Mr. Rob Hamilton.
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Hello.
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Thanks for having me.
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Yeah, he's an over-covered, covered person.
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What's the term?
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Cover holder.
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Cover holder.
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Mr. Cover holder.
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That's right.
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And Mr. Craig Raw.
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Good to be back.
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Thanks for coming, guys.
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As I was mentioning, I think we have a pretty straightforward list today.
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Not too many dramatic things.
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Urgent vulnerability disclosures, full disclosure, transaction-related
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throughput, overflow attacks against off-chain protocols.
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Antoine Riard's post.
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I think this is Lightning-related.
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Great.
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I haven't read this one.
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I'm reading it right now.
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Transaction relay, full node types, 431.
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Sounds like another one of those that it can just crash Bitcoin.
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Yeah, looks like it's a Lightning, it's a Lightning-based vulnerable
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disclosure.
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Oh, great.
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Vulnerable disclosure, Wasabi, Wabi-Sabi coin join protocol exposes users to de
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-anonymization risks.
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Just burn it with fire.
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Let's be done with this.
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Right now, the only solution is join markets until we have something else.
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My understanding, this is basically the disclosure is the coordinator would be
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able to track provenance between the joins themselves.
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Right.
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It is systematic, catastrophic failure.
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Like it's bad.
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Like not like a rugging of they're going to take your funds.
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But if you're using Wasabi to get privacy, it's that level of the purpose that
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you're using it for would be defeated by this vulnerability disclosure and that
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the coordinator, whoever it is, would be able to look through the transaction
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graph.
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And right now we don't have like, let's call it official coordinator for Wasabi
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because, you know, the Wasabi guys had to stop running their coordinator.
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And, you know, it's a mess right now.
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Hopefully the Samurai case moves forward in a way that is helpful to us.
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And then life gets better again until we have some other tech that's better
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than both.
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Yeah, I mean, I think the issue here is that, you know, this Samurai indictment
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really just caught everyone by surprise.
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And, you know, the coordinators just were not built to be run by untrusted
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third parties.
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It's not that they can't be built, you know, in that way, but that just wasn't
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a strong focus.
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You could argue that it should have been, but the reality is everyone was
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operating under the assumption that non-custodial coordinators would not be
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money transmitters, which we all obviously still believe should be the case.
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So from what I understand, and I could well be wrong, is that the fix is
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not necessarily a fix.
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I still need to dig into it more, but I would be cautious about trusting the
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statement that this vulnerability has now been fixed.
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I'll definitely do some more research first.
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Yeah, there are certain things that are quite hard to fix, particularly when
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using compact block filters, you don't have access to the entire chain.
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I mean, it really goes back to like CoinJar needs to be decentralized, but it's
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not an easy problem.
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We don't have a solution.
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Except for maker-taker on joint markets, which comes with a lot of trade-offs,
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right?
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Like in terms of usability and everything else.
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It's hard, man.
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Bitcoin was never designed to be private.
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And, you know, like if you go back, like way back when you saw the cryptography
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mailing lists and the reaction from a lot of, you know, the cryptography
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Illuminati people in all the academia, there was a big hate they had for
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Bitcoin was the fact that it didn't have privacy.
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Right.
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And you can't really have both, at least not like, you know, on-chain both,
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because Bitcoin is an accountable system.
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And that accountability comes from the literal UTXOs are public to everyone,
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every transaction is public.
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And it's going to be very hard to build something that is not, you know, some
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hack on top or somebody comes up with a new cryptographic primitive.
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You know, we're not quite there yet.
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And, you know, all the other alternatives, ZK Snarks and Mimbo Wimbo, all that
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shit come with a bunch of trade-offs that, you know, all end up in inflation
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bug concerns to be overly simplistic.
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And that's not a trade-off that Bitcoin can make.
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Yeah, this is ultimately you could like, I know, like Blockstream and other
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changes where they have confidential transactions.
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The exact problem you laid out, though, is that the beauty of Bitcoin is that
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you can run get TX outside info on your own node and you can just go
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and count all the UTXOs and know how much Bitcoin exists.
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The moment you start blinding those amounts being sent in a transaction
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provides an opportunity for someone to inflate the Bitcoin supply.
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And this is just going back to what are the more important primacies that we're
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trying to uphold in Bitcoin?
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Is it fully confidential, anonymous transactions or is it a stable amount of
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known fixed supply?
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Right.
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And the moment that you get away from grug brain one plus one equal two and
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you lean on larger cryptography, you lose that very simple way of being able to
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verify.
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That's not to say that there isn't a lot of progress that's been made in this
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tech.
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But when you're talking about Bitcoin, everyone rightfully, I would say, is
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risk adverse and trying to introduce something that would possibly be undoable
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and kind of ruin the sanctity of the supply, knowing that it's the supply
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issuance is remaining intact.
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I, you know, I really think that we end up in a place where this is
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not going to change ever because that's the promise is not we're not even
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trusting the cryptography.
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Right.
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Like in that sense, we have a triple entry ledger.
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Right.
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Right.
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So I keep a copy, you keep a copy and the receiver keeps a copy.
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Let's let's call it that way.
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Right.
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So like it's impossible to fake the supply.
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Right.
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It really is.
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And that's the beauty of it.
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If somebody comes up with a way of blinding amounts and then the cryptography
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is beautiful and you have proofs and all this shit, it's still like it doesn't
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change.
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I don't think Bitcoin changes.
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We just need to have a lot clever ways of doing coin joins and also layer
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twos to resolve a lot of the problem.
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Right.
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I mean, even Lightning, OK, like it's kind of already great for basic privacy.
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It really is.
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It's very difficult for a non-state actor type with a lot of resources and a
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lot of like sibling of the network to to figure out the Lightning transaction
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it came from and stuff.
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In particular, the sending on Lightning.
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That's right.
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Because you're just you're pushing the payment through when you want to receive
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Lightning payments.
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So you have to say where you're sending the payment to.
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Right.
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So you do leak some amount there.
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But there's ways of obfuscating that.
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But for sure, for I think sending amounts, it's it's the best that we have.
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The joke is that the best mixers are the exchanges, right?
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Like Binance is such a large mixer.
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Right.
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So in Lightning, you know, if you find custodians that are outside of the
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purview of places where you do need to do KYC.
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I mean, in a way or not, like you are getting some privacy that way.
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It's not perfect, but it is something.
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Craig?
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Yeah, I mean, I think that CoinJoin is so far being market wise or the market
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has shown us that it is the most successful privacy technique that we have had
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to date.
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And that's just pure usage.
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You know, I think, yes, Layer 2 stuff can provide us with privacy.
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But the reality is that if CoinJoins, in the sense that we understand in today,
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are deemed illegal, then the reality is that Lightning is not far behind being
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deemed illegal.
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That is the hard truth of the world in which we live today.
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And we should assume it's only going to get worse.
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I think that's an important thing to realize.
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I really hope not, because miners will also become de facto illegal.
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The whole thing.
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You know, if you listen to the recent What Bitcoin Did podcast, just been
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relaunched with Danny Knowles, which I highly recommend, you will.
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Great one.
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There is no difference between what the Samurai Coordinator was doing and what
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a Lightning Node is doing.
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There really isn't.
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I mean, basically, you have an entity taking a fee for submitting someone
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else's transactions onward.
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I mean, it's basically the same same thing.
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So that's where I think like there is some nuance.
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I, you know, in the zero-sum black pill sort of mentality, I think, yes, like,
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you know, yeah, nobody's going to make mining illegal.
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There is too many actors now that depend on that, like it could cause major
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economic damage to major countries.
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You know, different countries are going to try to do shit just to spite other
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countries because they don't like each other.
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So there is a bit of flag theory protection there, too.
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I don't, I don't let my mind go into the zero-sum game because I feel
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like that's sort of like we become fully defeated.
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I think that the laws in some places will become worse.
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I mean, like, didn't, which country just passed unrealized cap gains?
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I think Sweden, right?
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France?
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Or Norway, Norway.
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No, Norway.
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I mean, you know, like it's not just Bitcoin, right?
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Like it's like communists around the world are trying to take people's shit,
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right?
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Like for different reasons, oftentimes, you know, it comes down to just people
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control.
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It's not like the tax thing or whatever.
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So, you know, I think in this big gray in between we're fucked and we're not
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fucked, there is like a big part of it that like we can sort of sort
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out and find a lot of design space.
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And the incentives are there, right?
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There's a lot of incentives by a lot of people who are affected by these things
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to come up with solutions.
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Yeah, no, sure.
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Look, actually, the reason that I mentioned it is not because I am pessimistic
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about the future.
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It is more I'm kind of pointing out because I think it needs to be pointed
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out by more people that what is being done to the Samurai devs is borderline
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insane and will not likely survive because it's simply there is no limiting
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factor on that particular view of the world.
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And to Craig's earlier point, like the the legal theories and cases that were
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put forth, like being put forth for Samurai and was also for the tornado cash
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was I think it was the US government's position was that a frying pan is it
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is a transference of heat.
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So in the same sense, like software can be a transference of money.
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So like software can be money transmitters.
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Like that's where I think to explain about like a Bitcoin, like a mining pool
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organizing these blocks, aren't they just transmitting?
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They're moving money around then.
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Right.
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And they're getting compensated for it by the network and transaction fees.
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And it's not that the these are correct legal theories or they're like the
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right.
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It's that you want to put the strongest defense with the cases you have to
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prevent a creep in this direction.
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I think ultimately Bitcoin wins.
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I agree with you, MBK, that like there's flag theory and there's like there's a
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global game theory at play here.
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But there's no need to why take a 10 yard penalty.
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Right.
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Like we should just prevent like the bad precedent from being set.
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And I think that's the P2P rights fund.
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I see.
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But this is the thing.
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It's completely out of our control.
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Yeah.
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Like the benefits of being more married to a lawyer is that one thing you learn
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is that like as non lawyers trying to like have opinions about like how the
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courts work and how the lawyer like how the lawyering work and all that stuff.
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It's like it's a literal fucking waste of time.
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Like no, seriously.
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Like it's just so like it is like I try not even think about it because
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I go just into a dark place.
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Because like reality is right.
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Like, you know, especially when people are talking about like constitutional
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challenges and like this bigger law questions like is a complete fucking like
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clusterfuck like roll the dice.
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And like because, you know, like there's many countries where people say, you
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know, like maybe I can find some some gun rights because look, you know, my
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constitution says I have the right to this or right to that.
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And then you go look at the court.
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The court is like, I don't give a shit about this old laws.
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You know, like you have no rights.
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Like it's just so like all over the place.
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It's almost like, you know what, like it sucks.
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We need to support economically the lawyers that they're trying to fight the
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stuff.
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Right.
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Like but it's like, you know what, like go have fun.
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Like there's nothing else we can do except for trying to create new technology
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that just makes their life even more miserable.
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The best thing technologists can do is make the life of the anti-technologists
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impossible.
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Right.
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So like make enforcement impossible.
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Make headless chase.
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Like you can't do anything about it.
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Right.
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Like I mean, look at what Tornado Cash had a good decision.
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Right.
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Or part of the case had a good decision.
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I can't remember where they're saying, you know, like, no, like, you know, you
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can't like this is just a software.
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Right.
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Like you can't stop it.
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He clearly can't stop it.
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It's still running.
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Right.
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So the only thing within our control is to create tools that make their lives
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miserable.
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I agree.
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I agree.
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Yeah.
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And that's it.
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It's like because they will like is the same is the same thing that happened to
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Lavabit.
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Right.
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Like because they were centralized, the government said, hey, listen, put a
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backdoor in this so we can catch this guy.
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I think was who was it at that time?
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It was Assange, right?
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That they were after the emails or something.
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I can't remember who was it.
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And they said, no, we're not going to do it.
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And then the government said, well, if you don't do it, you're going to jail
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because national security.
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So like if they have a person to go after, they will go after legally or
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not.
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The laws don't matter.
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They will find a reason to put you in jail.
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Oh, I remember when you dropped that chew gum out of the car.
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We're going to make that capital punishment now.
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So like they'll find a way.
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And it doesn't matter.
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Like the only solution is to resolve through technology.
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It's like make their life miserable.
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Agreed.
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To your point about economically supporting them for the fight.
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That's the P2Prights.org.
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That's the nonprofit that's going to the Legal Defense Fund.
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So I would if if you want to fight on multiple fronts, I agree that what's
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so inspiring about Bitcoin is that as open source software that's globally
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distributed and has all of these international like nation state governments
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coming in and participating in the game theory.
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Now, it just strengthens Bitcoin and kind of this different camps with
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different interests, which kind of promote it to continue to exist.
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Also, we want to fight where we are now.
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I'm a proud American.
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I want.
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Yes.
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I don't want bad laws to be there.
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So P2Prights.org is where the Legal Defense Fund is.
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If you're interested in donating, it's a tax deductible if you're in the States
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00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:08.620
or you can just anonymously donate and not tie a name into it all.
334
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It's all going to the fund.
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00:16:10.420 --> 00:16:14.840
There's only two things, you know, it's like the vote harder retardation,
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right?
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Like voting doesn't count.
338
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OK, your personal vote doesn't count.
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00:16:19.800 --> 00:16:21.080
Democracy doesn't work that way.
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They will push the election to whatever fucking direction they want.
341
00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:26.660
The point is that there is there is two things that matter.
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And Elon just demonstrated that in America.
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When you want to make, you know, somebody win, you just put a fuck ton of
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money into it.
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Like, you know, essentially, like you have to back economically the outcome you
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want and you create the technology that that will resolve the problem, even if
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they don't want that to happen.
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There really is nothing else in this world since the beginning of humankind
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that resolves that.
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It's like power, economical power and a new invented shit.
351
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That's it.
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I would just put it in the bucket of like maybe 90, 95 percent of your
353
00:17:01.660 --> 00:17:05.000
time focusing on the tech and like five to 10 percent time indexing, right?
354
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Like a little bit just to be aware of it, because you have to ultimately live
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00:17:07.700 --> 00:17:08.000
somewhere.
356
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.839
So the place that you live, you don't want it to be a bad spot.
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But most of the effort, I would agree, from a return on your time and
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investment, not just in monetary, but also in freedom, would be some sort of
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00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:20.720
split like that.
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Most of your time working on things that are directly in the agency of your
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control.
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And this is not just about Bitcoin.
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It's just about life when there's problems and things to deal with.
364
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Focusing on the domain of things in your control is where you're going to find
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most meaning and happiness.
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And then you at the edge is as the system gets bigger and more complex, putting
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00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.080
less and less time to emotionally invest into it, because it's a bad spot to
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invest a lot into something you can't control.
369
00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:43.180
We're saying the same thing.
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00:17:43.180 --> 00:17:47.140
It's just that, like, you can't personally affect this unless you want to put a
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lot of time into advocating and going to fucking do that shit.
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00:17:50.340 --> 00:17:54.440
No, just pay people who are professional psychopaths to go do the psychopaths
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are called lawyers.
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That's what lobbyists are, like a bunch of fucking psychopaths, you know, like
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you let the psychopaths do the psychopaths.
376
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Is it a waste of money?
377
00:18:02.600 --> 00:18:05.860
Yes, but not really if you want to live in that jurisdiction, because they are
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not going to ignore you.
379
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They're coming after your shit.
380
00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:13.540
Yeah, actually, my main reason was not to I was actually just really trying to
381
00:18:13.540 --> 00:18:18.020
point out that, you know, it's not about Coinjoin.
382
00:18:18.020 --> 00:18:25.160
It's about the ability to host a server which can pass through third party
383
00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:25.960
transactions.
384
00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:28.600
That is which is far, far, far broader.
385
00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.700
And in my view, I don't think that that is well enough understood.
386
00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.060
So that's why I mentioned it.
387
00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:37.180
I think that, you know, that the case is, you know, I know you didn't, but
388
00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:39.480
it was not a rant against your comment.
389
00:18:39.580 --> 00:18:44.200
It was just like, it's just a fucking rant, you know, like it's like it's like
390
00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:47.520
you look at Canada going down a precipice with this fucking retard in power
391
00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:47.800
now.
392
00:18:48.020 --> 00:18:48.340
Right.
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00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:50.940
Like the guys literally destroyed the country.
394
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.700
And it is obvious, like there is nothing you can do.
395
00:18:53.900 --> 00:18:56.000
They have power until they no longer have power.
396
00:18:56.100 --> 00:18:58.420
And all you can do is donate a fuck ton of money to the people that
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00:18:58.420 --> 00:19:00.040
can come and take their power.
398
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:00.740
Right.
399
00:19:00.820 --> 00:19:01.760
And that's it.
400
00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:04.260
Like that's the democratic system.
401
00:19:04.600 --> 00:19:08.540
It's like, you know, you have to essentially spend all the money so that when
402
00:19:08.540 --> 00:19:12.560
their time period, official time period is done, the other people can come in
403
00:19:12.560 --> 00:19:14.500
and fuck it to a way that you prefer it.
404
00:19:14.500 --> 00:19:18.620
Until the next four years later, when the other people get their other money to
405
00:19:18.620 --> 00:19:19.560
then fuck you again.
406
00:19:19.760 --> 00:19:24.860
And it's like this complete fucking like like a schizophrenic system.
407
00:19:25.020 --> 00:19:25.160
Right.
408
00:19:25.180 --> 00:19:27.760
Like because, again, government just has too much power.
409
00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:30.700
If government didn't have so much power, we didn't we wouldn't have to spend so
410
00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:31.740
much and give a shit about it.
411
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:36.500
Software releases and updates.
412
00:19:38.980 --> 00:19:40.120
Democracy, the god that failed.
413
00:19:40.580 --> 00:19:43.080
Download this book if you haven't yet, person listening.
414
00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:45.860
I highly recommend it.
415
00:19:45.860 --> 00:19:49.160
It is a nice little hop book.
416
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:51.820
Bitcoin, software releases and project updates.
417
00:19:52.100 --> 00:19:53.240
Thanks for the reminder, Rob.
418
00:19:53.620 --> 00:19:55.340
This is not a political podcast.
419
00:19:55.540 --> 00:19:56.440
We're here for the software.
420
00:19:59.080 --> 00:20:03.540
All right, Rust payjoin version 0.21.0. It's great.
421
00:20:04.560 --> 00:20:07.960
Talking about that, I do have a feature request for Mr. Craig.
422
00:20:08.900 --> 00:20:11.880
Just why don't we stick it right here in between these two updates?
423
00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:13.160
Great.
424
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:20.360
So, OK, I really think like desktop wallets that are powerful like yours should
425
00:20:20.360 --> 00:20:24.800
have very clever wallet migration features.
426
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:30.340
So, for example, I have a wallet, right, that has, I'd say, like 20 UTXOs in
427
00:20:30.340 --> 00:20:30.640
it.
428
00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:36.960
OK, what you do is you generate multiple PSBTs to migrate to a new wallet.
429
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.260
And these are very clever.
430
00:20:39.260 --> 00:20:42.780
You know, maybe you split some, you know, you create a little bit of noise
431
00:20:42.780 --> 00:20:43.180
there.
432
00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:43.740
Right.
433
00:20:43.840 --> 00:20:47.120
If anything, it may not be like total privacy from the spooks, but like it's
434
00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:49.000
privacy from, say, the next receiver.
435
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:49.600
Right.
436
00:20:50.260 --> 00:20:54.580
And you migrate those UTXOs nicely and then you can import it to the code card
437
00:20:54.580 --> 00:20:57.040
and do a chain sign because we do that now.
438
00:20:57.480 --> 00:20:59.880
And then I just sign, sign, sign, sign, sign, sign.
439
00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:01.560
It's between two wallets that you control.
440
00:21:01.760 --> 00:21:05.560
You can go and burn your old keys, you know, and move on because a lot
441
00:21:05.560 --> 00:21:08.700
of people migrate keys, right, because they improve their setup.
442
00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:10.540
Sometimes a key gets compromised.
443
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.760
And now that the time is passing, we're noticing that, like, you know, it's a
444
00:21:15.760 --> 00:21:17.200
lot of people migrating wallets.
445
00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:21.840
So I thought about having us write the plugin for Electrum.
446
00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:27.600
But since I have Mr. Craig here, if you can write HWI again, I mean, this
447
00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:29.180
is a walk in the park, two minute project.
448
00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:31.540
So I'm just putting that out there.
449
00:21:31.540 --> 00:21:39.200
Okay, so if you would like to see this, go to the Bitcoin repo, search for
450
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:44.540
broadcast pool and comment or otherwise add some thoughts.
451
00:21:44.620 --> 00:21:50.400
Let's get some activity behind that PR because what broadcast pool does is it
452
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:56.300
effectively allows every Bitcoin node to have a very small area of RAM or on
453
00:21:56.300 --> 00:22:00.880
disk, which allows you to schedule transactions for the future.
454
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.720
And that is very important when you're trying to migrate wallets because you
455
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:08.260
don't want to be sending all of your UTXOs over at once.
456
00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:12.580
So, you know, it's just a super simple thing.
457
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:17.620
It's really not hard or controversial to implement this in Bitcoin Core.
458
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:19.900
There's nothing about that strange or weird.
459
00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:20.840
It's not a soft fork.
460
00:22:20.860 --> 00:22:22.500
It's just a small area.
461
00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.640
So you can say, here's a transaction, but please only broadcast this or submit
462
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.900
it to the mempool at X date.
463
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:31.020
So there are other ways you can do this.
464
00:22:31.100 --> 00:22:33.340
You can have third party servers and all kinds of things.
465
00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:37.220
But ideally, from an engineering point of view, you want that as part of
466
00:22:37.220 --> 00:22:37.820
Bitcoin Core.
467
00:22:38.040 --> 00:22:42.960
So I am very keen to implement the feature you just suggested, but I want to
468
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:43.460
do it right.
469
00:22:44.360 --> 00:22:46.760
I have requested this feature to you before, haven't I?
470
00:22:47.260 --> 00:22:47.660
You have.
471
00:22:48.140 --> 00:22:49.600
And we talked about this PR.
472
00:22:50.300 --> 00:22:52.280
So, okay, let's assume that Core won't do it.
473
00:22:52.540 --> 00:22:55.260
Okay, like just start from that premise because, you know.
474
00:22:55.260 --> 00:22:59.000
Okay, well, if Core won't do it, then it's going to have to be a layer
475
00:22:59.000 --> 00:22:59.240
up.
476
00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:02.300
So like Electrum servers could could do it.
477
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:03.640
Yeah, you know, they are.
478
00:23:04.220 --> 00:23:07.340
And then if you're failing that, we have to do it in the client.
479
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:13.600
But then we have clients which need to be left open for days, weeks, weeks at
480
00:23:13.600 --> 00:23:13.880
least.
481
00:23:14.120 --> 00:23:14.320
Right.
482
00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:20.380
If you want to space your UTXOs out, say you've got 20, you can't send them
483
00:23:20.380 --> 00:23:21.260
all at once.
484
00:23:21.280 --> 00:23:23.900
So you're going to have to space them out over a period.
485
00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:24.960
You can have at least a week.
486
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:25.300
Right.
487
00:23:25.320 --> 00:23:26.860
If you have 100, you're going to have weeks.
488
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:30.540
Would you be willing to put this on the client and we just sort of go
489
00:23:30.540 --> 00:23:35.260
with that to start and then we show people that there is demand and push that
490
00:23:35.260 --> 00:23:36.180
into the server side?
491
00:23:36.300 --> 00:23:37.180
It should be on the server side.
492
00:23:37.220 --> 00:23:38.020
You're absolutely correct.
493
00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:41.640
But maybe what we need to do is like, look, I mean, there is people using
494
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:42.280
this stuff.
495
00:23:42.840 --> 00:23:45.600
You know, Craig wasted all this time and put it on the client as well.
496
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:47.780
Can we just like move this to Core?
497
00:23:48.220 --> 00:23:50.120
Because sometimes I think that's the problem.
498
00:23:50.620 --> 00:23:54.560
Well, I kind of just think it actually needs a champion on the Core side just
499
00:23:54.560 --> 00:23:55.740
to drive it, drive it forward.
500
00:23:55.840 --> 00:23:59.760
I mean, there's absolutely no reason why we can't, you know, get this thing
501
00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:00.300
done right.
502
00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:04.800
I guess the flip side of that is if I build it into Sparrow in a
503
00:24:04.800 --> 00:24:07.400
non-ideal way, people will be like, oh, well, it exists.
504
00:24:07.620 --> 00:24:08.040
It's OK.
505
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.640
But I'm really trying to get people to not leave their cold storage while it's
506
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:12.900
open.
507
00:24:13.140 --> 00:24:14.720
That is my ideal here.
508
00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:16.480
I know, I know.
509
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:18.100
So I will do it.
510
00:24:18.280 --> 00:24:19.460
I won't leave this.
511
00:24:20.100 --> 00:24:23.780
I do absolutely recognize, you know, it's actually more of an issue than you
512
00:24:23.780 --> 00:24:29.100
might think, because with all of these inheritance wallets that are coming out,
513
00:24:29.260 --> 00:24:35.600
which require rotation from one vault to the next vault, regular rotation of
514
00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:37.280
coins, I think we'll go through it.
515
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.300
But Bitcoin Keeper has got this feature now.
516
00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:45.900
Can we maybe fund somebody to do the server side work on the Electrum client or
517
00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:46.660
something like that?
518
00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:48.620
Well, I probably could.
519
00:24:48.780 --> 00:24:51.780
But I'm just thinking about this for a moment, like the grug brain way of
520
00:24:51.780 --> 00:24:55.780
thinking about this, like the very grug, super basic, simple as you would have
521
00:24:55.780 --> 00:24:57.620
a bunch of transaction hexes, right?
522
00:24:57.740 --> 00:25:01.260
Signed transactions that are ready to broadcast and you would just keep looping
523
00:25:01.260 --> 00:25:03.300
over that list and push it out again.
524
00:25:03.760 --> 00:25:06.640
Is the concern if it gets bumped out of the mempool to automatically
525
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:07.820
rebroadcast it?
526
00:25:08.020 --> 00:25:12.320
Like what's the friction for broadcast pool specifically over like a very
527
00:25:12.320 --> 00:25:16.320
simple just like I loop over, is it like almost like a side mempool in your
528
00:25:16.320 --> 00:25:19.100
own Bitcoin node that like just keeps these as a priority and just keeps on
529
00:25:19.100 --> 00:25:20.540
broadcasting them over and over again?
530
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:20.820
Yeah.
531
00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:22.100
Like what is that the idea?
532
00:25:22.620 --> 00:25:24.260
That's what Bitcoin Core actually does.
533
00:25:24.520 --> 00:25:29.740
So with with its own wallet, any transactions that you broadcast directly from
534
00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:33.640
the Bitcoin Core wallet already have this rebroadcasting feature built in,
535
00:25:33.800 --> 00:25:33.920
right?
536
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.260
So if they're not in the mempool, it rebroadcasts them into the mempool.
537
00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:39.780
But that only applies to the Bitcoin Core wallet.
538
00:25:39.780 --> 00:25:43.080
So it's not particularly useful because not too many people use that.
539
00:25:43.420 --> 00:25:43.520
Sure.
540
00:25:43.620 --> 00:25:48.240
So it's it's like from a technical point of view, this is not rocket science.
541
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:50.260
It's absolutely an achievable thing.
542
00:25:50.340 --> 00:25:54.340
And there's another PR which kind of does a lot of groundwork for this.
543
00:25:54.540 --> 00:25:56.940
So it would be a relatively simple build on top of that.
544
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:01.360
It's really just it's comes down to the simple things of people's time.
545
00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:03.400
Somebody just needs to focus on this.
546
00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:05.880
What's the which number again?
547
00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:09.620
It's it's 30471 is the issue.
548
00:26:09.620 --> 00:26:10.240
I'm there right now.
549
00:26:10.300 --> 00:26:12.260
And the most recent comment actually is from you.
550
00:26:12.360 --> 00:26:14.620
Can you drop the link because I'm lazy on the chat.
551
00:26:14.980 --> 00:26:16.680
I'm about to reply to.
552
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:22.100
I'm going to go drop the link in a few core dev DMs live on air.
553
00:26:24.360 --> 00:26:24.780
Excellent.
554
00:26:24.780 --> 00:26:27.320
I think I did that before, but, you know.
555
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.800
It's such like and the problem is this is one of those things that time is
556
00:26:33.800 --> 00:26:38.460
passing, so people do it the bad way, which is they just transfer either a lump
557
00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:38.740
sum.
558
00:26:39.620 --> 00:26:46.840
Like even without timing, perfect timing, like broadcast, I think it's still
559
00:26:46.840 --> 00:26:51.140
better than people doing a consolidation transaction, which is what most people
560
00:26:51.140 --> 00:26:51.300
do.
561
00:26:51.340 --> 00:26:55.760
They just make a single transaction out of all the AOTXOs into the new wallet.
562
00:26:56.280 --> 00:26:58.180
Yeah, that's like the ultimate horrible.
563
00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:00.620
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
564
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:03.420
But I mean, we should really aim for something decent.
565
00:27:03.560 --> 00:27:06.200
Otherwise, people just get used to bad, right?
566
00:27:06.780 --> 00:27:08.100
Yeah, yes, I know.
567
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:10.720
I think that I'm waiting for Rob's link here.
568
00:27:11.140 --> 00:27:12.340
Oh, I'll drop it in.
569
00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:14.800
I just replied to the here it is.
570
00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:20.020
And now it makes sense to Craig why you would want this, because obviously the
571
00:27:20.540 --> 00:27:23.380
the simple, instant way of doing this is you would have this managed somewhere
572
00:27:23.380 --> 00:27:25.960
in Sparrow and you just keep pushing it to the Bitcoin node.
573
00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:28.920
But if you could push it to the Bitcoin node, you don't have to worry about
574
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:31.080
managing that job anymore on Sparrow side.
575
00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:35.260
And now you know that the user's own node is kind of advocating and kind of
576
00:27:35.260 --> 00:27:39.360
like going to keep it on because you keep your Bitcoin node on 24-7 typically,
577
00:27:39.760 --> 00:27:42.220
but you're not going to leave your Sparrow wallet open 24-7.
578
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:42.580
Right.
579
00:27:42.620 --> 00:27:46.020
So that perfectly makes sense that the thing that's supposed to be on the
580
00:27:46.020 --> 00:27:46.800
network there.
581
00:27:47.280 --> 00:27:51.180
I'm also you're exactly right when it comes to managing of time locks and pre
582
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:51.920
-signing transactions.
583
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.460
Like this is the thing, too, where the way you could pre-sign a transaction to
584
00:27:56.460 --> 00:28:00.100
do a key rotation, like like you mentioned, like we'll talk about it in a
585
00:28:00.100 --> 00:28:01.300
second with Bitcoin Keeper.
586
00:28:01.460 --> 00:28:04.860
And for a certain extent, what we do, too, is that if for whatever reason, we
587
00:28:04.860 --> 00:28:08.360
want to pre-sign a transaction to the future to have a contingency spending
588
00:28:08.360 --> 00:28:12.320
path be used, we get that transaction hex and then we have to sit on it
589
00:28:12.320 --> 00:28:15.380
in plain text somewhere in a server or like local backups.
590
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.480
Like if you're a user, like you maybe want to have that on USB drives.
591
00:28:18.540 --> 00:28:20.000
You maybe you want to like put it in your email.
592
00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:23.180
Like there's different tradeoffs based on your privacy and like kind of your
593
00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:23.660
threat modeling.
594
00:28:24.100 --> 00:28:27.160
But if I was able to push it to a Bitcoin node and just know that
595
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.340
like, OK, now it's on my Bitcoin node, as long as my node stays online, it
596
00:28:30.340 --> 00:28:33.460
will broadcast the transaction once it's valid is another great thing, too.
597
00:28:33.460 --> 00:28:36.820
Like if I'm pre-signing transactions that aren't valid until one hundred
598
00:28:36.820 --> 00:28:40.320
thousand blocks from now, but I want to make sure it goes live, why would I
599
00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:41.940
want to have my node like automatically do that?
600
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:45.620
It removes a whole user interface loop of having to go back and broadcast the
601
00:28:45.620 --> 00:28:48.100
transaction that all perfectly makes sense to me.
602
00:28:48.140 --> 00:28:50.820
The moment you've mentioned that, like the rotating of UTXO makes perfect sense
603
00:28:50.820 --> 00:28:51.020
for that.
604
00:28:51.040 --> 00:28:56.160
So not just wallet migration, just any more advanced wallet transactions where
605
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:59.720
you're not trying to send the money immediately also is like really important
606
00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:00.080
for this.
607
00:29:00.380 --> 00:29:01.340
It's going to become the norm.
608
00:29:01.420 --> 00:29:01.760
I think so.
609
00:29:01.860 --> 00:29:05.120
I mean, like people are becoming more sophisticated on their wallets.
610
00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:05.420
Right.
611
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:05.800
Yeah.
612
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:07.380
They have more interesting setups.
613
00:29:08.140 --> 00:29:09.780
It's it's going to be very common.
614
00:29:10.360 --> 00:29:10.460
Yeah.
615
00:29:11.140 --> 00:29:11.300
Yeah.
616
00:29:11.340 --> 00:29:13.540
I mean, this is what people want.
617
00:29:13.620 --> 00:29:18.100
Like if there's any Bitcoin core devs out there who hear this or hear of this.
618
00:29:18.860 --> 00:29:19.800
This is what people want.
619
00:29:19.860 --> 00:29:21.480
This is what people are asking for.
620
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:24.040
I know you want to do something that people actually want.
621
00:29:24.380 --> 00:29:27.300
I'm not saying the other work isn't isn't wanted, but like this is this is
622
00:29:27.300 --> 00:29:28.000
really wanted.
623
00:29:28.580 --> 00:29:31.960
People want to be able to schedule future transactions.
624
00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:33.320
It's an important thing.
625
00:29:33.560 --> 00:29:35.580
It also facilitates an Uncle Jim model, right?
626
00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:38.880
Like let's say if I'm a trusted friend of you, Craig, and like, hey, here's
627
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:39.880
this transactions on my note.
628
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:43.020
Can you just throw on your note to like there's a privacy tradeoff to be
629
00:29:43.020 --> 00:29:43.720
explicitly clear.
630
00:29:44.100 --> 00:29:47.040
But this would also facilitate people who are helping people manage their
631
00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:50.380
Bitcoin to make sure that you have distribution of the key.
632
00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:52.940
Is there a PR also going along with this?
633
00:29:53.080 --> 00:29:54.680
Can I get somebody to write some code?
634
00:29:55.460 --> 00:29:56.320
There is a PR.
635
00:29:56.620 --> 00:29:58.240
Oh, you mean the actual work?
636
00:29:58.580 --> 00:29:58.720
Yeah.
637
00:29:59.320 --> 00:30:00.240
There is not yet.
638
00:30:00.360 --> 00:30:03.120
There is a PR on the base work that I mentioned.
639
00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:04.420
So that is right.
640
00:30:04.620 --> 00:30:06.700
And it's linked in that that issue.
641
00:30:07.120 --> 00:30:12.080
So if anybody wants a grant to go like do this, just like, you know, send
642
00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:15.220
an application to OpenSats and say, I'm going to I'm going to go finish this.
643
00:30:15.520 --> 00:30:19.520
As long as there's somebody who has a chance of getting merged, you know, and
644
00:30:19.520 --> 00:30:22.300
your code quality is, you know, like it can't just be anyone.
645
00:30:22.420 --> 00:30:22.640
Right.
646
00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:25.740
It has to be somebody who has a chance of getting this merged.
647
00:30:26.100 --> 00:30:27.200
Like apply.
648
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:29.160
It's narrowly scoped, too, right?
649
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:30.640
This isn't like a multi-year contract.
650
00:30:30.780 --> 00:30:32.480
It's like this is a great way to get your foot in the door if you're
651
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:35.300
looking for an OpenSats, like for these kind of grants is that it's very
652
00:30:35.300 --> 00:30:36.000
narrowly scoped.
653
00:30:36.060 --> 00:30:37.500
It's not a year of work.
654
00:30:37.800 --> 00:30:39.340
There's a very specific victory condition.
655
00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:41.000
Has it been backshadowed yet?
656
00:30:42.100 --> 00:30:47.200
Not really, it's just to be honest, it's just it hasn't really had the.
657
00:30:47.260 --> 00:30:48.080
Because it will be.
658
00:30:48.540 --> 00:30:49.180
It will be.
659
00:30:49.360 --> 00:30:50.040
And that's fine.
660
00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:53.040
Like the spec that I've put down, I obviously don't know everything.
661
00:30:53.040 --> 00:30:57.820
If there's some change that has to be made because of X, Y, Z reason, great.
662
00:30:58.040 --> 00:31:00.460
You know, but let's try and strive towards it.
663
00:31:00.840 --> 00:31:01.760
Let's talk about it.
664
00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:02.520
Yeah.
665
00:31:02.860 --> 00:31:03.120
Yeah.
666
00:31:03.760 --> 00:31:08.240
I, you know, this kind of stuff normally going around core, having a solution
667
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.780
out there that like that does the job, but it's not core.
668
00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:15.560
Often it's easier to get than that into core.
669
00:31:16.080 --> 00:31:18.560
But, you know, I totally get the motivation.
670
00:31:19.360 --> 00:31:20.760
Let's see if we can get somebody on it.
671
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.460
I'm kind of of the view that we shouldn't give up on core.
672
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:29.100
That's my, my baseline line view is, is that, and I know that many people, many
673
00:31:29.100 --> 00:31:32.440
kind of third party devs are like, ah, we're never going to get it done.
674
00:31:32.540 --> 00:31:36.860
But I'm, I'm not of that view because that view is just giving up.
675
00:31:36.980 --> 00:31:39.060
You know, core is the server, right?
676
00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:41.080
For all of us, core is the server.
677
00:31:41.520 --> 00:31:45.280
We are for the most part building clients of various kinds, but core is the
678
00:31:45.280 --> 00:31:45.480
server.
679
00:31:45.600 --> 00:31:50.180
We cannot accept a world where our server cannot change at all.
680
00:31:50.180 --> 00:31:52.480
In any way, it has no real feature ads, whatever.
681
00:31:52.700 --> 00:31:55.920
I don't think that's a world in which I want to work in this industry.
682
00:31:56.620 --> 00:31:58.500
So I refuse to give up on core.
683
00:31:58.580 --> 00:31:59.360
I'm going to keep on trying.
684
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:02.240
I don't even think core devs even have that same, but they would agree with
685
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:02.400
you.
686
00:32:02.580 --> 00:32:02.740
Right.
687
00:32:02.800 --> 00:32:02.960
Yeah.
688
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:03.680
Like they want to do that.
689
00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:07.100
And something like this is a very, it's not a consensus change, right?
690
00:32:07.100 --> 00:32:10.260
You're just facilitating and making the server better to actually serve end
691
00:32:10.260 --> 00:32:12.060
users of Bitcoin.
692
00:32:12.320 --> 00:32:15.760
So I think this is a straightforward, I'm sure there's probably mechanics of
693
00:32:15.760 --> 00:32:19.160
mempool details and things to flesh out that like your Instagibs and your, and
694
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.280
your mempool wizards of the world and Gloria and everyone would want to like
695
00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:26.220
get a little feedback on, but directionally, it sounds like a no loss feature.
696
00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:27.720
Like, why wouldn't you want to be able to support this?
697
00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:31.160
Especially as people are doing more pre-signed stuff, people are, are messing
698
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:33.340
more with UTXO rotation, wallet rotation.
699
00:32:33.620 --> 00:32:34.520
It makes perfect sense.
700
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:35.980
Cool.
701
00:32:36.120 --> 00:32:41.480
Uh, Craig, do you want to talk about HWI since we are talking about, uh, you
702
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:45.540
know, your wallet before we get into the next one, might as well, we jump to
703
00:32:45.540 --> 00:32:45.860
yours.
704
00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:46.800
Okay.
705
00:32:47.020 --> 00:32:47.280
Okay.
706
00:32:47.280 --> 00:32:52.240
So, um, last week I released a library called lock.
707
00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:57.860
So libraries are generally not that interesting from the point of view of kind
708
00:32:57.860 --> 00:33:03.500
of end users because they sit inside the wallet, but in this case, I decided to
709
00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:06.220
release it as well as a command line application.
710
00:33:06.220 --> 00:33:07.100
So what is it?
711
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:13.180
There's a library, a different one called HWI, which talks to all of the USB
712
00:33:13.180 --> 00:33:14.280
hardware wallets.
713
00:33:14.360 --> 00:33:18.860
So I think Trezor, Ledger, Jade, Bitbox, all of those.
714
00:33:19.520 --> 00:33:26.240
And that is, uh, written by one of the, uh, core maintainers called HR.
715
00:33:26.840 --> 00:33:31.420
And it's been around for many years and it does its job pretty well, but it
716
00:33:31.420 --> 00:33:35.640
is written in Python, which is great if you're writing a wallet in Python, but
717
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:39.000
not so great if you're writing a wallet in a different language.
718
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:44.260
So for example, one of the things that HWI does is that every time you run
719
00:33:44.260 --> 00:33:49.660
it, it contains a Python runtime inside of it and it unzips itself into some
720
00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:54.920
temporary location on your hard drive and it runs itself from there.
721
00:33:55.100 --> 00:34:00.940
Now, unfortunately to Windows machines, that looks like a Trojan and what the
722
00:34:00.940 --> 00:34:05.260
last thing that people want is their Bitcoin wallet popping up with an
723
00:34:05.260 --> 00:34:08.739
antivirus message or the antivirus coming up and saying your Bitcoin wallet
724
00:34:08.739 --> 00:34:09.719
looks like a virus.
725
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:13.320
Like that is literally the worst thing that you want to have.
726
00:34:13.460 --> 00:34:18.940
So I've been fighting this for quite a few years and eventually that was one of
727
00:34:18.940 --> 00:34:23.500
the primary reasons that I decided I can't manage this risk well anymore.
728
00:34:23.500 --> 00:34:25.940
I need to go a different, different way.
729
00:34:27.060 --> 00:34:31.719
And, uh, I think it's also just from my own point of view, it was very
730
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:34.219
important for Sparrow to kind of own that part of it.
731
00:34:34.219 --> 00:34:39.739
I mean, it's such a critical part of a wallet is talking to these hardware, you
732
00:34:39.739 --> 00:34:47.560
know, devices that you really don't want to have this kind of black box, if you
733
00:34:47.560 --> 00:34:50.100
will, dealing with that part of it.
734
00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:55.219
I mean, I relied on HWI for many years and I'm very grateful for all the
735
00:34:55.219 --> 00:34:57.340
work that has been done on it by various people.
736
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:01.260
But for me, it was time to own that piece of code, if you will.
737
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:03.140
So the outcome is lock.
738
00:35:03.140 --> 00:35:04.280
That's the name of it.
739
00:35:04.620 --> 00:35:08.360
It is a rewrite of all of the hardware wallet clients.
740
00:35:08.640 --> 00:35:11.620
So the, the Trezor client, for example, the ledger client, the cold cloud
741
00:35:11.620 --> 00:35:15.980
client, the J client, all of the different clients for the USB connected
742
00:35:15.980 --> 00:35:17.320
hardware wallets that you can have.
743
00:35:18.020 --> 00:35:22.620
And, uh, as far as I know, I'm the only person to have ever actually written
744
00:35:22.620 --> 00:35:25.760
all of the clients, which gives me an interesting insight.
745
00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:29.440
And then we can talk a little bit about the various learnings that I had,
746
00:35:29.740 --> 00:35:33.740
because all of these clients, all of these wallets, I should say, are all
747
00:35:33.740 --> 00:35:35.040
completely different.
748
00:35:35.220 --> 00:35:39.000
Like the way in which they talk to the computer is, is it couldn't be more
749
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.780
radically different from one, one to the next, which is, um, an interesting
750
00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:44.080
thing.
751
00:35:44.420 --> 00:35:48.260
I'd love to know, please, because we started the episode, like the podcast with
752
00:35:48.260 --> 00:35:49.660
like 15 minutes of politics.
753
00:35:49.660 --> 00:35:51.600
So there may be a couple of stragglers still awake.
754
00:35:51.600 --> 00:35:55.320
So if we can spend the next 45 minutes talking about, I have no issues with
755
00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:55.540
that.
756
00:35:55.640 --> 00:35:56.700
Please, please go ahead.
757
00:35:56.780 --> 00:35:57.860
Yeah, go for it.
758
00:35:57.860 --> 00:36:01.860
You know, just a little perspective on this, like the hardware often dictates
759
00:36:01.860 --> 00:36:04.900
how you do your USB comms.
760
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:09.620
And, uh, so there's the, the, the chip restrictions, right?
761
00:36:09.680 --> 00:36:12.200
Like, like what can you do, the features on the chips.
762
00:36:12.640 --> 00:36:17.460
And then there is the language that you choose to write your code into those
763
00:36:17.460 --> 00:36:19.280
chip, the embedded environment, right.
764
00:36:19.300 --> 00:36:21.080
That also dictate on how you can do things.
765
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:22.620
So it's kind of fascinating, right?
766
00:36:22.640 --> 00:36:25.680
Like, so everybody in the hardware ends up doing their, their own thing.
767
00:36:26.120 --> 00:36:32.700
I mean, of course, cold cart does it the best way, but, uh, it's all personal
768
00:36:32.700 --> 00:36:33.180
preference.
769
00:36:33.620 --> 00:36:34.060
Sure.
770
00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:39.100
So, um, so let's start off at the, at the lowest level when doing this kind
771
00:36:39.100 --> 00:36:44.700
of, uh, comparison, there are three major different kinds of ways that we have
772
00:36:44.700 --> 00:36:47.320
so far anyway, of talking to these devices.
773
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:51.740
And as you just said, it's kind of very much depends on what is going on
774
00:36:51.740 --> 00:36:52.820
in the chip, chip level.
775
00:36:52.820 --> 00:36:58.500
So the, the most common way to do it, which is used by ledger, uh, cold
776
00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:04.840
card, bit box, all use this protocol called HID or human interface device,
777
00:37:04.900 --> 00:37:07.180
which in my opinion is the best way to do it.
778
00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:11.960
I think it's the most appropriate tech to choose, but, uh, some have chosen to
779
00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:13.040
go a different way.
780
00:37:13.240 --> 00:37:17.420
So the Jade, which is a low cost device.
781
00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:21.660
And, you know, unfortunately when you spend less, you get, get less.
782
00:37:21.660 --> 00:37:23.060
That's the reality of the world.
783
00:37:23.200 --> 00:37:28.800
So that unfortunately has to rely on serial and serial is just a much more low
784
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:29.880
level protocol.
785
00:37:30.040 --> 00:37:35.680
You really are kind of talking and sort of raw bites back and forth between the
786
00:37:35.680 --> 00:37:36.780
computer and the device.
787
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:40.440
And that is a less robust mechanism to be able to talk.
788
00:37:40.540 --> 00:37:44.700
So the Jade tends to suffer from communication issues and driver issues.
789
00:37:45.220 --> 00:37:48.640
You know, you have lots of people who have various, you know, particularly on
790
00:37:48.640 --> 00:37:51.840
Windows, people find that they can't see their Jade and have to install a
791
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:52.180
driver.
792
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:56.600
That's basically because it's, it's needing to rely on this more basic kind of
793
00:37:56.600 --> 00:37:57.340
interface layer.
794
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:01.800
That's, you know, the, the actual chip set on there has this kind of chip that
795
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:03.600
interfaces between USB and serial.
796
00:38:03.700 --> 00:38:08.900
So that's why they do it, but it's, it's definitely less than ideal, shall I
797
00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:10.780
say from a communication point of view.
798
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:14.320
And then finally the Trezor just uses something completely different.
799
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:18.740
They use this protocol called WebUSB, which was originally designed for
800
00:38:18.740 --> 00:38:22.340
browsers to talk to hardware wallets.
801
00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:24.000
I won't comment too much on that.
802
00:38:24.100 --> 00:38:28.200
I think you guys can imagine my, my views on that, but anyway, it's just very,
803
00:38:28.340 --> 00:38:28.800
very different.
804
00:38:30.140 --> 00:38:33.100
And of course uses a different native lib.
805
00:38:33.220 --> 00:38:37.860
So you basically have three, have three different ways to be able to talk to
806
00:38:37.860 --> 00:38:38.700
these, these things.
807
00:38:38.700 --> 00:38:44.100
And anyone who wants to basically build another lock, say in Rust, then just be
808
00:38:44.100 --> 00:38:47.180
aware that you're going to have to deal with these three different ways of
809
00:38:47.180 --> 00:38:51.320
talking down to the kernel, all of which will require their own C, I would
810
00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:53.000
assume to be able to do that.
811
00:38:53.860 --> 00:39:00.740
Then in terms of the kind of one layer up the encryption, so only the cold
812
00:39:00.740 --> 00:39:03.900
card in the bit box actually encrypts the data on the wire.
813
00:39:04.540 --> 00:39:10.100
You know, it's, I don't know if that's important to you or not, but that's the
814
00:39:10.100 --> 00:39:11.360
fact as it stands.
815
00:39:11.680 --> 00:39:12.980
It's very important for privacy.
816
00:39:13.720 --> 00:39:16.120
I will say though, that if you are, yeah, sure.
817
00:39:16.240 --> 00:39:19.940
If you're actually a dev, it's a pain in the ass because you want to see
818
00:39:19.940 --> 00:39:20.760
what's going on.
819
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:22.640
Yeah.
820
00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:25.220
We don't want the other apps to see what's going on, right?
821
00:39:25.420 --> 00:39:25.720
Yeah.
822
00:39:25.820 --> 00:39:26.960
Well, there you go.
823
00:39:27.100 --> 00:39:29.460
So, so those, those ones were more of a challenge.
824
00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:34.340
So here, I think the sort of design ethos of the different hardware wallet
825
00:39:34.340 --> 00:39:37.720
companies really was at its most obvious.
826
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:43.180
So on the cold card side, you have Peter who just built the simplest thing that
827
00:39:43.180 --> 00:39:43.760
would work.
828
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:46.080
It works like it does the job.
829
00:39:46.160 --> 00:39:48.080
It encrypts the traffic on the wire.
830
00:39:48.540 --> 00:39:50.020
It absolutely does, does the thing.
831
00:39:50.080 --> 00:39:52.800
It's very simple, quick to implement.
832
00:39:53.640 --> 00:39:57.960
On the bit box side, you have the very opposite end of the scale where they've
833
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:02.220
used this protocol called the noise product protocol, which really requires its
834
00:40:02.220 --> 00:40:02.880
own library.
835
00:40:03.600 --> 00:40:06.620
And it does this quite fancy kind of key exchange.
836
00:40:06.820 --> 00:40:13.640
And then a lot of it's like, it's this whole specification that you have to add
837
00:40:13.640 --> 00:40:15.340
in order to make this work.
838
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.200
And let me tell you, if you get even the slightest thing wrong, the entire
839
00:40:18.200 --> 00:40:19.460
thing doesn't work, work at all.
840
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:20.980
And it's all quite sort of tricky.
841
00:40:21.160 --> 00:40:26.580
So that was a challenge trying to re-implement that, but that's all, you know,
842
00:40:26.600 --> 00:40:27.140
all done.
843
00:40:27.140 --> 00:40:31.160
So that's just two very, very, very different ways of seeing the world there
844
00:40:31.160 --> 00:40:34.560
from how are we going to achieve this particular goal.
845
00:40:35.540 --> 00:40:41.760
Then if we then kind of go into what is inside the encryption or not, in
846
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:46.360
this case, we have the fact that, and this is one of the rare agreements
847
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:50.560
between two hardware world companies, is that both the Trezo and the bit box
848
00:40:50.560 --> 00:40:57.000
have decided to use Google's protocol buffers in order to convey messages back
849
00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:57.840
and forth.
850
00:40:58.200 --> 00:41:03.080
So what a protocol buffers is very simply is you write this protocol
851
00:41:03.080 --> 00:41:09.020
specification file, this dot proto file, and then you can generate code, Java
852
00:41:09.020 --> 00:41:13.960
code or Rust code or JavaScript code, Python code, whatever you want to.
853
00:41:14.020 --> 00:41:19.020
They've got a number of different code generators for every different language
854
00:41:19.020 --> 00:41:21.420
and you generate a whole bunch of code.
855
00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:29.440
I mean, I'm talking really big, long files, which basically you then just pull
856
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:32.960
in and then you have this kind of, I mean, it's both good and bad.
857
00:41:33.140 --> 00:41:37.340
Like on the good side, you've got this kind of structure to work with.
858
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:40.100
On the bad side, you've just got a whole bunch of code that you need to
859
00:41:40.100 --> 00:41:41.000
work with.
860
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:44.080
So that was a rare kind of agreement.
861
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:48.560
Obviously, if the protocol changes, you have to create the files again, dump
862
00:41:48.560 --> 00:41:50.320
them in, and then you're going to have a change.
863
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.500
So that was interesting to work with.
864
00:41:52.560 --> 00:41:56.660
I hadn't worked with that particular sort of spec before.
865
00:41:57.580 --> 00:42:02.740
And then moving on to the ledger, people who are in the know perhaps know this,
866
00:42:02.860 --> 00:42:06.240
but ledger has two completely different clients under the hood.
867
00:42:06.720 --> 00:42:11.700
So if you're running firmware before 2.1, you are running a completely
868
00:42:11.700 --> 00:42:16.700
different client to those who are running firmware after 2.1. And that's the
869
00:42:16.700 --> 00:42:21.840
reason that Taproot doesn't work on firmware before 2.1. So you have to
870
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:24.680
basically implement the ledger client twice.
871
00:42:24.860 --> 00:42:26.020
There's no way around it.
872
00:42:26.120 --> 00:42:28.480
And there's a lot of work involved in that.
873
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.960
So again, that was just made the whole thing longer and more deep detail than I
874
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.960
had really wanted.
875
00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:35.700
But it all now works.
876
00:42:36.560 --> 00:42:40.800
And yeah, I mean, I'm just in a phase now where I want devs, you know,
877
00:42:40.820 --> 00:42:44.240
the various devs from these different companies to go out and then test it
878
00:42:44.240 --> 00:42:48.360
before it gets integrated into Sparrow, which will happen sometime early next
879
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:48.600
year.
880
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:49.740
That's right.
881
00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:54.560
The ledger did that update, I believe, if my timing is right, it was December
882
00:42:54.560 --> 00:42:58.400
of 2022, they pushed this update and I was on top of it because it also
883
00:42:58.400 --> 00:42:59.760
enabled ledger to do many script.
884
00:42:59.980 --> 00:43:04.100
So they basically threw out the entire old way of how they did multisignature
885
00:43:04.100 --> 00:43:07.340
and single signature in the ledger and they moved over to a descriptor format.
886
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:12.340
They also had, I think they had to do it because they need to stream the
887
00:43:12.340 --> 00:43:17.160
program back into the ledger because there's not enough room there for the
888
00:43:17.160 --> 00:43:18.140
whole thing.
889
00:43:18.540 --> 00:43:20.980
Yeah, it was something related to the memory issue.
890
00:43:21.520 --> 00:43:26.080
They essentially like they're restreaming in for the secure competition to
891
00:43:26.080 --> 00:43:29.000
happen because they can't fit the whole program in there.
892
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:32.960
Yeah, I think that's the that that was their solution to it.
893
00:43:33.180 --> 00:43:33.380
Yeah.
894
00:43:34.020 --> 00:43:35.920
So that's actually a good, good point.
895
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:40.440
So both the I'm just trying to remember now, at least the Trezor and the
896
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:45.060
ledger, and I think the bitbox as well, basically the way in which they work is
897
00:43:45.060 --> 00:43:50.240
that you have to break the PSPT up into all of its component parts and then
898
00:43:50.240 --> 00:43:52.460
you send each component part at a time.
899
00:43:52.580 --> 00:43:57.000
And actually, even on the screen, as you are confirming various things on the
900
00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:01.220
screen, you're actually in that process of sending every bit through it.
901
00:44:01.780 --> 00:44:05.960
So it's very different, for example, from the cold card where you just ship the
902
00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:08.380
entire PSPT file across the Jade.
903
00:44:08.380 --> 00:44:13.280
Also, now has it's not an HWI yet, but it is in luck and ability to
904
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:15.060
accept an entire PSPT file.
905
00:44:15.140 --> 00:44:20.280
So you just ship the entire PSPT file across, which is perhaps a lot easier, I
906
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:20.600
would say.
907
00:44:21.040 --> 00:44:25.840
But with the Trezor and ledger, you really do have to do a lot of pre
908
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:30.160
-work ahead of time to break this PSPT up and then send across all the
909
00:44:30.160 --> 00:44:31.520
individual parts of it.
910
00:44:31.520 --> 00:44:37.280
I think the main thing is like, you know, like Ledger and Trezor are sort of
911
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:43.200
focused on having their vendor based clients fool the shit coins for you to buy
912
00:44:43.200 --> 00:44:44.340
and all that stuff.
913
00:44:45.180 --> 00:44:50.840
So they're not focused on making it easy for third party clients, right?
914
00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:51.840
It's not their goal.
915
00:44:52.040 --> 00:44:57.160
Like their business is like download the Trezor suite thing and the Ledger
916
00:44:57.160 --> 00:45:00.720
suite thing and buy the shit coins from me and, you know, do the stuff the
917
00:45:00.720 --> 00:45:01.460
way we do it.
918
00:45:01.600 --> 00:45:02.740
And that's their goal.
919
00:45:03.180 --> 00:45:04.620
That's their main sort of focus.
920
00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:08.200
You know, I think the Bitbox is kind of similar.
921
00:45:08.520 --> 00:45:09.520
It's like a middle ground.
922
00:45:09.660 --> 00:45:12.140
I think they have their clients and everything around.
923
00:45:13.220 --> 00:45:15.180
You know, cold card does not have a client.
924
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:15.960
We don't make one.
925
00:45:16.060 --> 00:45:17.220
We don't want to make one.
926
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:22.280
So, you know, we try to make it as robust, simple as possible for third parties
927
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:23.620
to not have to talk to us.
928
00:45:24.020 --> 00:45:26.380
Because if you have to talk to us, that is a form of permission.
929
00:45:27.080 --> 00:45:31.420
You know, like if you need us to help you implement, now you have to deal
930
00:45:31.420 --> 00:45:31.740
with us.
931
00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:32.780
And that's not a good thing.
932
00:45:32.860 --> 00:45:37.000
We want the third party vendors to essentially like be able to hate us and
933
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:38.200
still work on the device, right?
934
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:40.280
It's sort of a mentality thing.
935
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:48.260
With Jade, it's complicated because ESP32 was designed for you to make your
936
00:45:48.260 --> 00:45:51.720
hobby like Christmas tree blink, you know what I mean?
937
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:55.400
Like it's a platform for hobby, right?
938
00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:59.080
It's not a platform to make final, professional products.
939
00:46:00.060 --> 00:46:03.600
So, you know, credit to them for taking it this far.
940
00:46:04.120 --> 00:46:05.180
But you do hit limits, right?
941
00:46:05.220 --> 00:46:09.240
Like with a device that costs like, I think a ESP32 module that they use
942
00:46:09.240 --> 00:46:10.960
nowadays, maybe three dollars, four dollars.
943
00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:13.740
So, you know, you hit a wall, right?
944
00:46:13.780 --> 00:46:15.180
Like the USB is horrible.
945
00:46:16.180 --> 00:46:18.100
The security is tricky, right?
946
00:46:18.160 --> 00:46:23.300
Like, you know, you have access to runtime memory, you know, there's a bunch of
947
00:46:23.300 --> 00:46:24.800
reasons why we didn't go that direction.
948
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:27.140
But it is wonderful in other ways.
949
00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:30.520
Like, you know, you get like a ton of flash memory for three dollars.
950
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:34.180
Like, you know, there is all these other things you get because it was designed
951
00:46:34.180 --> 00:46:36.320
for you to make cool little hobby things, right?
952
00:46:36.340 --> 00:46:36.660
For cheap.
953
00:46:37.600 --> 00:46:42.060
So, you know, and harder people like can't just go and say like, yeah, I don't
954
00:46:42.060 --> 00:46:45.000
like the way this goes, so I'm going to just recode it in this other way.
955
00:46:45.080 --> 00:46:45.920
No, it doesn't work like that.
956
00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:49.480
It's like these are the chip specs.
957
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.680
And if I chose this chip, I'm literally stuck with the specs and how it works
958
00:46:53.680 --> 00:46:54.440
forever, right?
959
00:46:55.080 --> 00:46:56.260
Unless I change the chip.
960
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:02.560
So, you know, it's a hard problem and, you know, and the harder wallets carry a
961
00:47:02.560 --> 00:47:03.960
lot of legacy with them, right, too.
962
00:47:04.380 --> 00:47:08.160
So like, you know, you have customers that you can't just change stuff to and
963
00:47:08.160 --> 00:47:09.320
just, you know, screw everybody.
964
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.060
It's complicated and it's people's money.
965
00:47:12.240 --> 00:47:18.720
It's not like, you know, I don't know, like a clock, like, you know, our clocks
966
00:47:18.720 --> 00:47:19.580
is different, right?
967
00:47:19.620 --> 00:47:22.580
Like, I mean, we have a different way of thinking about how we design the
968
00:47:22.580 --> 00:47:23.380
clocks, right?
969
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:28.300
And because, you know, people are not going to lose money.
970
00:47:28.500 --> 00:47:32.000
Yeah, like hardware is thankless and third party vendors dealing in hardware is
971
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:32.780
also thankless, too.
972
00:47:33.220 --> 00:47:38.980
So we're very thankful in a thankless environment that you went and you rebuild
973
00:47:38.980 --> 00:47:39.820
the libraries.
974
00:47:39.980 --> 00:47:40.760
I think it's great.
975
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:43.780
I think if anything, it's a good exercise, too, because you could have found
976
00:47:43.780 --> 00:47:44.260
problems.
977
00:47:44.900 --> 00:47:47.560
Maybe you did find some problems and, you know, let the vendors know.
978
00:47:48.700 --> 00:47:53.240
And this, you know, for the main wallets, I mean, like these protocols do get
979
00:47:53.240 --> 00:47:55.000
pounded a lot by attackers, right?
980
00:47:55.040 --> 00:47:59.680
Like there is a reason why, you know, we encrypted the protocol, because, you
981
00:47:59.680 --> 00:48:05.360
know, if you can read stuff in transit, it means, you know, an evil program on
982
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:07.240
your computer can read this stuff in transit, right?
983
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:11.820
And everything should be encrypted when it comes to Bitcoin stuff.
984
00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:15.400
Anyway, I find it super cool that you went through that.
985
00:48:16.600 --> 00:48:20.140
I just hope you have the patience to maintain it as they break things.
986
00:48:21.820 --> 00:48:24.280
Yeah, I mean, I think we're kind of past that.
987
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:28.920
There's so many devices out there that if they are, you know, you can't change
988
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:29.480
too much.
989
00:48:29.780 --> 00:48:31.880
It's become too hard to change.
990
00:48:32.040 --> 00:48:37.800
I think that the rate of changes really slowed down a lot because people don't
991
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:38.760
upgrade their firmware.
992
00:48:38.900 --> 00:48:42.480
And the worst thing you can do is just have someone's device not function
993
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:44.020
because they didn't upgrade it.
994
00:48:44.220 --> 00:48:48.440
So, you know, I do think there will be changes and new devices, but I think
995
00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:52.700
we've probably plateaued out for the most part for now.
996
00:48:52.900 --> 00:48:53.640
That's what I'm hoping.
997
00:48:54.020 --> 00:48:57.840
I do foresee having to maintain this, but I don't think it's going to be like
998
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:59.580
masses of time every month.
999
00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:05.860
Yeah, I, you know, it's I mean, our install base like grows like, you know,
1000
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:09.520
probably like 10x a year kind of thing, it's crazy, right?
1001
00:49:09.740 --> 00:49:15.020
Like, and even we don't want to change things and break things, you know, like
1002
00:49:15.020 --> 00:49:17.260
even if it's still compatible with previous versions.
1003
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:20.820
So like, you know, our next hardware, I mean, there's a million new chips I
1004
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:21.360
want to use.
1005
00:49:21.720 --> 00:49:25.020
But, you know, like our next hardware generation is going to likely be
1006
00:49:25.020 --> 00:49:28.740
compatible with the current hardware generation because like because of the
1007
00:49:28.740 --> 00:49:33.040
nature of Bitcoin and the nature of like the level of security we have to build
1008
00:49:33.040 --> 00:49:38.900
things, like you can't maintain two, three firmware versions for different
1009
00:49:38.900 --> 00:49:40.280
hardware vintages.
1010
00:49:40.660 --> 00:49:41.200
You just can't.
1011
00:49:41.540 --> 00:49:43.760
Like you will add security concerns.
1012
00:49:44.720 --> 00:49:48.200
Like we will forget that we did something in a certain way because of some
1013
00:49:48.200 --> 00:49:52.280
issue three, five years ago, and then you change something and then all of a
1014
00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:53.940
sudden you could have a hole, right?
1015
00:49:54.540 --> 00:49:57.360
It's a very, very tricky situation to be in as a vendor.
1016
00:49:57.600 --> 00:50:02.800
And it's new, like never before you had to do this in this way because like
1017
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:06.800
security industries before, the money was not in the device, right?
1018
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:07.880
Like they could roll back.
1019
00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:11.080
I mean, when YubiKey fucks something up, it's like, oh, you know, yeah, just
1020
00:50:11.080 --> 00:50:13.780
reset your your T-top key or whatever, right?
1021
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:17.640
Like there is no reset, like it's money gone, right?
1022
00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:22.560
Like so, you know, sometimes, you know, it's like you're dealing with user
1023
00:50:22.560 --> 00:50:23.660
frustration, right?
1024
00:50:23.700 --> 00:50:27.080
That like, oh, you know, how come you don't support the old hardware or this or
1025
00:50:27.080 --> 00:50:27.240
that?
1026
00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:31.060
It's like, dude, like, sorry, like for this kind of price, like you just can't
1027
00:50:31.060 --> 00:50:31.340
do it.
1028
00:50:31.580 --> 00:50:37.100
You know, when you have like military contracts that like require the kind of
1029
00:50:37.100 --> 00:50:40.460
end of life for this level of security, you know, like a device like this would
1030
00:50:40.460 --> 00:50:43.940
be a hundred thousand dollars, like no joke, like a code card would be a
1031
00:50:43.940 --> 00:50:48.380
hundred thousand dollars a unit because not because of the hardware cost
1032
00:50:48.380 --> 00:50:54.260
itself, but because of the SLA, the end of life requirements, you know, the
1033
00:50:54.260 --> 00:51:00.480
audits and the 20 year old like contract that you have with a specific dev that
1034
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:03.600
did something that he has to come back to take a look at a thing, like
1035
00:51:03.600 --> 00:51:04.460
it's crazy.
1036
00:51:05.780 --> 00:51:10.720
It's a super cool industry to be in, but, you know, there's limitations on this
1037
00:51:10.720 --> 00:51:11.040
stuff.
1038
00:51:11.740 --> 00:51:11.860
Yeah.
1039
00:51:11.960 --> 00:51:16.140
Anyways, I'm always amazed that like when people get down to the hardware, it's
1040
00:51:16.140 --> 00:51:19.160
like I get super excited because it's so cool that people touch the part that
1041
00:51:19.160 --> 00:51:24.020
we deal with, that we try to make it as simple as possible because the future
1042
00:51:24.020 --> 00:51:27.080
comes and then you have to fucking deal with it.
1043
00:51:27.600 --> 00:51:28.420
It's exciting.
1044
00:51:29.060 --> 00:51:31.000
Most people often don't have to see it.
1045
00:51:32.020 --> 00:51:36.620
There's one other feature that I thought I would mention for those of you out
1046
00:51:36.620 --> 00:51:42.080
there who are Ledger owners and who are tired of re-registering your multi-sig
1047
00:51:42.080 --> 00:51:46.380
wallet every time you sign a transaction, that is going to go away soon.
1048
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:52.760
So Lark contains the ability to basically pass back and forth the little ID
1049
00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:56.980
that it gets from the Ledger every time you register a wallet.
1050
00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:01.380
And then I can send that back in and you won't have to register again.
1051
00:52:01.520 --> 00:52:04.920
So that is working on the Lark side and I just have to bring that into
1052
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:05.600
Sparrow now.
1053
00:52:05.900 --> 00:52:10.080
Is that basically Sparrow would maintain that HMAC because that's what it is.
1054
00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:14.040
And then, yeah, that's how we handle it too because just in AnchorWatch, like
1055
00:52:14.040 --> 00:52:18.620
using Ledgers, that was one of the first things is that you basically, the
1056
00:52:18.620 --> 00:52:21.940
first time you set up a wallet, you do a handshake verifying, hey, this is the
1057
00:52:21.940 --> 00:52:23.120
name of your wallet.
1058
00:52:23.120 --> 00:52:24.380
This is the descriptor.
1059
00:52:24.520 --> 00:52:25.060
Here are the keys.
1060
00:52:25.140 --> 00:52:25.800
Are you cool with it?
1061
00:52:26.140 --> 00:52:30.540
And you basically tie a descriptor to a key, an HMAC.
1062
00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:34.540
And then you have to, anytime you want to interact with that wallet ever again,
1063
00:52:34.640 --> 00:52:36.560
the Ledger, you need to pass that token in.
1064
00:52:36.640 --> 00:52:41.180
So wait, so you can't change the hardware because that probably has a hardware
1065
00:52:41.180 --> 00:52:41.700
key, right?
1066
00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:44.260
From there, you need like TPM like thing.
1067
00:52:44.640 --> 00:52:45.440
So fuck.
1068
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:49.160
So you can't just like transfer the seed over.
1069
00:52:49.180 --> 00:52:51.660
Isn't it tied to a BIP32 key though?
1070
00:52:51.660 --> 00:52:55.100
So if you have the same seed, I think if you have the same seed, I'm
1071
00:52:55.100 --> 00:52:56.160
now double checking.
1072
00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:58.900
I thought it was tied to a BIP32 key.
1073
00:52:59.160 --> 00:53:02.920
No, because it's a super cool security, like we thought about doing stuff like
1074
00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:03.260
that, right?
1075
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:04.820
Like where it's tied to the hardware.
1076
00:53:05.300 --> 00:53:07.100
But then if the hardware dies, now you're fucked.
1077
00:53:07.160 --> 00:53:08.240
You have to recreate the wallet.
1078
00:53:08.420 --> 00:53:10.540
So like we kind of went to that different trade off.
1079
00:53:11.180 --> 00:53:14.100
Yeah, I personally, I look, I could well be wrong.
1080
00:53:14.240 --> 00:53:15.960
I do think it's tied to the hardware.
1081
00:53:16.560 --> 00:53:20.080
I think in that case, you just have to re-register the wallet on the device.
1082
00:53:20.080 --> 00:53:24.340
The device doesn't store the actual wallet policy as far as I know.
1083
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:28.380
Maybe the newer ones do, but certainly the old Nano S just doesn't have the
1084
00:53:28.380 --> 00:53:29.020
space for it.
1085
00:53:29.580 --> 00:53:32.140
So all it can store is this HMAC.
1086
00:53:32.700 --> 00:53:37.220
So it's not really a great loss if you lose the device because, you know,
1087
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:38.700
you're going to have to re-register it anyway.
1088
00:53:39.200 --> 00:53:46.360
It's not like the device can somehow return that wallet policy, that output
1089
00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:47.940
descriptor back to you.
1090
00:53:48.020 --> 00:53:49.860
It doesn't have that, I don't think.
1091
00:53:50.240 --> 00:53:50.600
Hmm.
1092
00:53:51.580 --> 00:53:56.280
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a it's an infinite design space, you know, based
1093
00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:59.700
on your chips, your requirements, your business needs and everything else.
1094
00:53:59.700 --> 00:54:00.920
It's it's great, though.
1095
00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:02.320
Like, I mean, it's choice too, right?
1096
00:54:02.340 --> 00:54:06.440
Like, I mean, at least the ones you mentioned, I mean, it's like a lot of
1097
00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:09.100
different choice, you know, in terms of design choice.
1098
00:54:09.180 --> 00:54:09.540
Right.
1099
00:54:09.600 --> 00:54:10.440
It's a good thing.
1100
00:54:10.940 --> 00:54:12.280
We want to see more of that.
1101
00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:19.120
Who knows, maybe BitKey also opens up their their system for, you know, for you
1102
00:54:19.120 --> 00:54:20.500
to use it as one of the keys.
1103
00:54:20.820 --> 00:54:22.780
NFC tap, that'd be cool.
1104
00:54:23.680 --> 00:54:24.120
Absolutely.
1105
00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:29.940
The other little difference is that the BitBox allows you to, well, it requires
1106
00:54:29.940 --> 00:54:33.660
you, I should say, to pair your your device with a particular client.
1107
00:54:33.880 --> 00:54:34.760
So your your computer.
1108
00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:38.620
So you have to kind of look at the code that you get on the screen
1109
00:54:38.620 --> 00:54:41.020
and then say, yes, that's the same code I see on the device.
1110
00:54:41.020 --> 00:54:42.520
And you can go ahead.
1111
00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:44.620
So another little detail there.
1112
00:54:45.180 --> 00:54:46.100
That's kind of cool.
1113
00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:47.760
I don't know.
1114
00:54:48.180 --> 00:54:50.740
It's like just completely out of a tangent here.
1115
00:54:50.900 --> 00:54:57.060
I just I don't know why I'm fixated on this idea of like the client and
1116
00:54:57.060 --> 00:54:59.380
the and the signer are completely independent.
1117
00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:01.420
They don't know each other.
1118
00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:03.140
They shouldn't know each other.
1119
00:55:03.260 --> 00:55:04.640
They shouldn't depend on each other.
1120
00:55:04.940 --> 00:55:06.960
And it's like and it's invisible.
1121
00:55:07.240 --> 00:55:12.120
Like ideally, like my ideal world, the client wallet doesn't even know which
1122
00:55:12.120 --> 00:55:13.000
signer you're using.
1123
00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:17.180
Yeah, because information is what attackers need.
1124
00:55:17.640 --> 00:55:17.740
Yeah.
1125
00:55:18.100 --> 00:55:18.340
Right.
1126
00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:21.600
It's like which signer is he using to know which type of rootkit I'm going to
1127
00:55:21.600 --> 00:55:23.280
try to how am I going to attack this?
1128
00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:23.540
Right.
1129
00:55:24.540 --> 00:55:26.720
Yeah, I lean towards that as well.
1130
00:55:26.900 --> 00:55:27.800
I sort of prefer it.
1131
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:31.880
I think it's a simpler model and I generally prefer that kind of approach.
1132
00:55:32.220 --> 00:55:34.960
But I'm sure that there are pros to the other way of doing it as well.
1133
00:55:35.100 --> 00:55:39.300
I haven't I haven't deeply thought about it, but I'm quite sure that if the
1134
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:42.860
BitBox guys were here now, they would list the number of different pros and we
1135
00:55:42.860 --> 00:55:45.300
would nod and say, yeah, that makes some sense.
1136
00:55:45.580 --> 00:55:46.680
So there is reasons for sure.
1137
00:55:47.240 --> 00:55:51.020
Yeah, it's just around trying to provide different options to people.
1138
00:55:51.220 --> 00:55:56.000
There's no security is never like, as we all know, like never one thing.
1139
00:55:56.100 --> 00:56:00.140
You can never make an absolute statement and say, you know, unless you're
1140
00:56:00.140 --> 00:56:02.280
talking about something very basic, X is better than Y.
1141
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:06.940
There's always a situation where Y is better than X if given a certain attack.
1142
00:56:06.940 --> 00:56:11.660
And that's why multivendor, multisig is such a great option because it just
1143
00:56:11.660 --> 00:56:14.900
gives you that kind of protection of X and Y.
1144
00:56:15.260 --> 00:56:19.200
I have some reservations with that, mostly because I'm a vendor, right?
1145
00:56:19.220 --> 00:56:23.840
The same way, like, you know how Spiral works, so you don't feel the need of
1146
00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:26.760
using different sort of system together.
1147
00:56:27.580 --> 00:56:32.260
And I think the biggest challenge that I have with the multivendor part, again,
1148
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:38.500
just tangents, because why not, is that the issue is the complexity that it
1149
00:56:38.500 --> 00:56:38.920
adds.
1150
00:56:39.220 --> 00:56:44.400
And for non-technical people keeping up with software breaking changes, you
1151
00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:48.660
know, like, because oftentimes when you need to sign a transaction, especially
1152
00:56:48.660 --> 00:56:54.100
a bigger transaction, it's because you need to sign the transaction, you know,
1153
00:56:54.160 --> 00:56:58.940
like you have a real reason and the time is ticking or something, right?
1154
00:56:58.940 --> 00:57:05.120
So, you know, that's when, you know, like for some reason, you know, the vendor
1155
00:57:05.120 --> 00:57:09.100
upgraded the firmware and now shit doesn't work, you know, like Apple changed
1156
00:57:09.100 --> 00:57:13.120
something, the NFC doesn't like, and I've encountered those issues.
1157
00:57:13.220 --> 00:57:14.820
I've encountered those issues with customers.
1158
00:57:15.100 --> 00:57:18.960
People tell me all kinds of stories and like, you don't understand what kind of
1159
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:19.960
DMs I get.
1160
00:57:20.940 --> 00:57:23.960
It is the real interesting world out there.
1161
00:57:24.020 --> 00:57:25.160
I'm sure you do the same.
1162
00:57:25.160 --> 00:57:27.980
And those stories are never shared in public, right?
1163
00:57:28.040 --> 00:57:31.220
Because these people, you know, don't want to share their stories in public.
1164
00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:37.200
And it's a lot of them, you know, simplicity goes a long way.
1165
00:57:38.460 --> 00:57:43.280
But, you know, it's like I do understand why you would want multivendor.
1166
00:57:43.540 --> 00:57:46.620
But at the same time, it's like for non-technical people, it's already hard
1167
00:57:46.620 --> 00:57:50.980
enough to get them to do multisig or to do even passphrase.
1168
00:57:50.980 --> 00:57:56.100
So like, I kind of like, you know, like maybe, yes, just go with single vendor.
1169
00:57:56.260 --> 00:58:01.300
At least it's the devil, you know, you know, and it's good.
1170
00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:02.640
Like, it's fucking great.
1171
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:04.620
I mean, it's a really amazing security.
1172
00:58:04.820 --> 00:58:09.220
It's much better than single sig, especially if you're using the main devices,
1173
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:09.420
right?
1174
00:58:09.460 --> 00:58:11.380
Like, and I'm not even talking about cold card.
1175
00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:14.320
I mean, even if you just use like three ledgers or three browsers, it's already
1176
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:15.760
like a huge improvement.
1177
00:58:16.420 --> 00:58:16.800
Completely agree.
1178
00:58:17.300 --> 00:58:21.220
You know, the two, like three cold cards are like, you know, maybe two of them
1179
00:58:21.220 --> 00:58:21.900
are different, right?
1180
00:58:21.940 --> 00:58:25.180
Like Q plus MK4, like, you know, you do have some variance there.
1181
00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:26.120
It does help a little bit.
1182
00:58:26.640 --> 00:58:29.900
You know, maybe the same with Razor, maybe it's two different ones of them, you
1183
00:58:29.900 --> 00:58:30.740
know, same ledger.
1184
00:58:31.200 --> 00:58:35.620
But like, you know, maintaining firmware, making sure the keys are good, the
1185
00:58:35.620 --> 00:58:39.360
health checks, if you use the collaborative, they force you to do that for a
1186
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:39.540
reason.
1187
00:58:40.240 --> 00:58:42.940
But then now you have to have access to your keys, which is horrible.
1188
00:58:43.580 --> 00:58:45.160
It's a big world out there.
1189
00:58:45.260 --> 00:58:49.380
It's complicated, you know, there is there is beauty in simplicity.
1190
00:58:50.240 --> 00:58:55.460
And yeah, and I've had I've had plenty of people that came to me with issues
1191
00:58:55.460 --> 00:58:57.240
with multi-vendor because of that complexity.
1192
00:58:58.020 --> 00:59:01.560
You know, the last time they touched shit, you know, like they were in many
1193
00:59:01.560 --> 00:59:06.920
versions ago of Electrum or something, you know, like, you know, they like it
1194
00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:10.520
was I can't remember what device was, but like I think it might have been a
1195
00:59:10.520 --> 00:59:13.840
ledger that like they just couldn't get the firmware to upgrade and they needed
1196
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:14.700
to sign the transaction.
1197
00:59:14.980 --> 00:59:19.080
So they just flew to a different country to go get a metal and load it
1198
00:59:19.080 --> 00:59:20.460
into a different wallet and get it done.
1199
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:23.740
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree.
1200
00:59:24.240 --> 00:59:28.260
Multi-SIG is certainly makes me sleep better at night.
1201
00:59:29.300 --> 00:59:34.140
The one attack that I've been thinking more about recently is the bad entropy
1202
00:59:34.140 --> 00:59:34.500
attack.
1203
00:59:34.620 --> 00:59:38.460
I mean, it remains like one of those just nightmare attacks.
1204
00:59:38.460 --> 00:59:42.720
There are there are some cases that I see, you know, in the work that I
1205
00:59:42.720 --> 00:59:48.740
do where people with certain devices just report funds gone, you know,
1206
00:59:49.200 --> 00:59:51.600
transaction happened, funds, funds gone.
1207
00:59:52.080 --> 00:59:55.120
And there's just no good reason for it.
1208
00:59:55.220 --> 01:00:02.220
And you are left with the default of that entropy could be like it's it's it's
1209
01:00:02.220 --> 01:00:03.300
the only reason, right?
1210
01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:05.020
It's the only one you can actually think of.
1211
01:00:05.160 --> 01:00:06.260
So I don't want to scare anyone.
1212
01:00:06.260 --> 01:00:11.080
These are very rare occasions, but I do tend to see a lot of things like
1213
01:00:11.080 --> 01:00:12.080
like you do.
1214
01:00:12.740 --> 01:00:15.140
Oh, you see it and you can never know.
1215
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:17.680
Like this is the problem, the entropy attacks is like you don't know.
1216
01:00:18.020 --> 01:00:18.240
Never know.
1217
01:00:18.380 --> 01:00:21.840
Like, you know, it's nine, nine, nine percent chance that the person just, you
1218
01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:25.820
know, like had a fucking QR on their desk and a camera picked up and boom,
1219
01:00:25.880 --> 01:00:26.280
money gone.
1220
01:00:26.420 --> 01:00:26.540
Right.
1221
01:00:26.620 --> 01:00:32.560
Or but then there is that 0.1 chance that like, you know, the vendor had
1222
01:00:32.560 --> 01:00:33.040
a problem.
1223
01:00:33.040 --> 01:00:33.600
Right.
1224
01:00:34.040 --> 01:00:38.420
If you have a device that doesn't have Ripple builds and is doing the RFCs
1225
01:00:38.420 --> 01:00:41.440
correctly, like it's a huge fucking problem.
1226
01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:45.580
As I mentioned before, when the Dark Skippy came around, I don't like the
1227
01:00:45.580 --> 01:00:47.360
solutions that we have for Dark Skippy either.
1228
01:00:47.620 --> 01:00:51.900
They add a bunch of complexity that can cause a bunch of other problems.
1229
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:56.060
And additionally, like for that part of that whole conversation was that the
1230
01:00:56.060 --> 01:01:00.080
final spec for deterministic nonces for Schnorr signatures wasn't even final
1231
01:01:00.080 --> 01:01:00.360
yet.
1232
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:03.780
I was like, what that like, like that's a whole other like basket of worms.
1233
01:01:03.860 --> 01:01:04.000
Right.
1234
01:01:04.060 --> 01:01:06.920
Like there isn't even like a final verified like spec.
1235
01:01:07.140 --> 01:01:07.480
That's right.
1236
01:01:07.660 --> 01:01:11.700
We don't even have a solution that is like, this is where I like to just
1237
01:01:11.700 --> 01:01:13.220
throw the line of core.
1238
01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:18.380
It's like, listen, you know, for the most reviewed piece of software there is
1239
01:01:18.380 --> 01:01:23.840
on the planet, likely, we can't prove that, probably is, you know, when you use
1240
01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:27.220
that, these RFCs, was it 69?
1241
01:01:27.380 --> 01:01:27.740
I can't remember.
1242
01:01:28.020 --> 01:01:29.160
69, 67.
1243
01:01:29.680 --> 01:01:30.760
Yeah, there you go.
1244
01:01:31.300 --> 01:01:33.320
You know, we do Ripple builds, right?
1245
01:01:33.520 --> 01:01:35.680
Like and it is a good solution.
1246
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:39.200
It is a provable good solution, right?
1247
01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:42.160
Does it have like some tradeoffs?
1248
01:01:42.300 --> 01:01:42.540
Yes.
1249
01:01:42.640 --> 01:01:43.280
Is it perfect?
1250
01:01:43.460 --> 01:01:43.760
No.
1251
01:01:44.420 --> 01:01:49.380
But it's like if you just follow the steps, it is like provably good.
1252
01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:50.740
69, 79.
1253
01:01:51.060 --> 01:01:51.680
There you go.
1254
01:01:51.860 --> 01:01:51.960
Yeah.
1255
01:01:52.100 --> 01:01:52.960
Deterministic nonces.
1256
01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:57.780
And, you know, like give us a better solution and we will implement.
1257
01:01:58.600 --> 01:01:58.700
Yeah.
1258
01:01:58.820 --> 01:02:03.440
But when it comes down to crypto primitives, I want to see on fucking core
1259
01:02:03.440 --> 01:02:03.840
first.
1260
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:06.600
I am not a cryptographer, right?
1261
01:02:06.640 --> 01:02:09.180
Like we don't have an in-house cryptographer.
1262
01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:13.260
Even if we did, we wouldn't just trust our in-house cryptographer, right?
1263
01:02:13.300 --> 01:02:17.800
Like we want to have the thing that everybody else is looking at it every day
1264
01:02:17.800 --> 01:02:19.900
when it comes down to these primitives.
1265
01:02:20.660 --> 01:02:26.120
Yeah, there's definitely the safest way to go forward is to do the thing that
1266
01:02:26.120 --> 01:02:26.800
everyone else is doing.
1267
01:02:26.900 --> 01:02:30.040
At least if it's wrong, everyone else is going down the same boat with you.
1268
01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:31.680
Yeah, exactly.
1269
01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:31.940
Right.
1270
01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:33.380
Like everybody else is fucked with you.
1271
01:02:33.720 --> 01:02:34.000
Yeah.
1272
01:02:34.120 --> 01:02:35.140
And it would be a disaster.
1273
01:02:35.680 --> 01:02:35.820
Yeah.
1274
01:02:35.860 --> 01:02:40.660
But I think the point I was actually making was around the generation of the
1275
01:02:40.660 --> 01:02:41.240
seed.
1276
01:02:41.520 --> 01:02:45.320
You know, with multisig, you just have this additional protection.
1277
01:02:45.560 --> 01:02:49.100
You can imagine that there must be attackers out there who are getting seeds,
1278
01:02:49.200 --> 01:02:49.440
right?
1279
01:02:49.820 --> 01:02:55.160
I think they've already broken like 70 bits kind of thing.
1280
01:02:55.400 --> 01:02:59.260
I am certain that 70 bits has been broken.
1281
01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:03.660
And they just, you know, they broke it, they created a table and they just
1282
01:03:03.660 --> 01:03:06.820
search for seeds in that 70 bits sort of region.
1283
01:03:07.120 --> 01:03:07.280
Yeah.
1284
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:11.260
And it's probably like Russia, China, sort of North Korea kind of level.
1285
01:03:11.840 --> 01:03:15.640
You know, they just sit there and wait for the funds to show up.
1286
01:03:15.640 --> 01:03:20.460
That's when like, you know, at least like with passphrase, right, like you have
1287
01:03:20.460 --> 01:03:23.220
this whole other entropy set on top of that that they are probably not
1288
01:03:23.220 --> 01:03:23.480
searching.
1289
01:03:23.580 --> 01:03:26.980
But they're not breaking 70 bits here and 70 bits there and then adding that
1290
01:03:26.980 --> 01:03:27.240
either.
1291
01:03:27.580 --> 01:03:28.320
Like exactly.
1292
01:03:28.600 --> 01:03:29.520
There's just too much.
1293
01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:29.900
Right.
1294
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:30.260
Right.
1295
01:03:30.340 --> 01:03:30.760
Exactly.
1296
01:03:31.520 --> 01:03:32.520
It doesn't compound.
1297
01:03:33.080 --> 01:03:33.760
That's important.
1298
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:34.140
True.
1299
01:03:34.280 --> 01:03:37.000
Like it's not like it's not compounding entropy here.
1300
01:03:37.020 --> 01:03:37.320
Right.
1301
01:03:37.660 --> 01:03:39.820
Because they could just overlap the two tables.
1302
01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:41.220
It's just a bigger space to search.
1303
01:03:41.240 --> 01:03:43.940
But it's not the same as compounding that entropy.
1304
01:03:43.940 --> 01:03:47.080
But it is a lot more space to search.
1305
01:03:47.860 --> 01:03:48.000
Yeah.
1306
01:03:48.080 --> 01:03:51.860
Look, I mean, they're going to have to reconstruct that script seg, right?
1307
01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:56.260
They're going to have to build that entire thing with all of those public keys
1308
01:03:56.260 --> 01:03:56.660
in it.
1309
01:03:56.720 --> 01:03:57.020
Yes.
1310
01:03:57.300 --> 01:03:57.400
Yes.
1311
01:03:57.400 --> 01:04:00.160
And then that's that's going to be a lot more work.
1312
01:04:00.220 --> 01:04:00.440
Right.
1313
01:04:00.540 --> 01:04:00.780
Yes.
1314
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:01.020
Yeah.
1315
01:04:01.220 --> 01:04:02.040
And they're going to get there.
1316
01:04:02.220 --> 01:04:03.400
No, that's the thing.
1317
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:05.540
But there's low hanging fruit, guys.
1318
01:04:05.600 --> 01:04:07.940
I mean, they're going to go after the single seg first, right?
1319
01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:08.300
Yes.
1320
01:04:08.460 --> 01:04:08.700
Yes.
1321
01:04:09.140 --> 01:04:13.340
And just to like fully pull that up for like Greg, like if you're using a
1322
01:04:13.340 --> 01:04:16.000
single seg key, all single seg wallets look the same, right?
1323
01:04:16.100 --> 01:04:19.620
Whether it's taproot or pay to witness script, like it's very set template.
1324
01:04:19.820 --> 01:04:23.940
Whereas the moment you leave single seg land, there's a whole different set of
1325
01:04:23.940 --> 01:04:24.620
addresses now.
1326
01:04:24.820 --> 01:04:28.740
Even if you do a three of four versus a two of three, like all of
1327
01:04:28.740 --> 01:04:30.420
like you have to add different bytes.
1328
01:04:30.700 --> 01:04:34.060
And since you hash the bytes, yeah, that becomes part of the address.
1329
01:04:34.520 --> 01:04:34.680
Right.
1330
01:04:34.780 --> 01:04:36.580
Pay to witness script hash, pay to script hash.
1331
01:04:36.980 --> 01:04:39.680
If you're using the script path and taproot, like all of these things, you're
1332
01:04:39.680 --> 01:04:43.460
instantly infinitely completing increasing the complexity of being able to just
1333
01:04:43.460 --> 01:04:45.680
look at an address and see, has that address been spent?
1334
01:04:46.220 --> 01:04:48.940
You start looking at grains of sand kind of territory.
1335
01:04:49.660 --> 01:04:49.760
Right.
1336
01:04:49.880 --> 01:04:53.960
You know, really like it's, you know, and but it's coming.
1337
01:04:54.100 --> 01:04:56.520
Like, I think this is very important for people to understand.
1338
01:04:56.740 --> 01:05:01.260
And really, one of the reasons why I love 24 words instead of 12 for non
1339
01:05:01.260 --> 01:05:04.280
-multisig is that like, you know, like it's a range problem.
1340
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:05.240
You can't prove either way.
1341
01:05:05.500 --> 01:05:07.060
You can't prove it's good and you can't prove it's bad.
1342
01:05:07.340 --> 01:05:08.820
It's above the math that we can do.
1343
01:05:09.100 --> 01:05:09.260
Right.
1344
01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:10.680
Like, I like to be in that space.
1345
01:05:10.680 --> 01:05:17.360
It feels cozier there, you know, and in the pinch, you can split a plate in
1346
01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:17.660
half.
1347
01:05:18.140 --> 01:05:18.240
Right.
1348
01:05:18.240 --> 01:05:20.560
Like and just go that way, too.
1349
01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:21.060
Right.
1350
01:05:21.100 --> 01:05:22.680
Because you have 12 words in each side.
1351
01:05:23.120 --> 01:05:25.820
I mean, ish, because the last one is good enough.
1352
01:05:26.500 --> 01:05:33.180
Yeah, it's it's all like ape sort of brain sort of feel cozy kind of scenario.
1353
01:05:33.380 --> 01:05:36.980
But still, like, you know, it's one it's it's more.
1354
01:05:37.080 --> 01:05:39.200
No, but it's more words for a camera to read.
1355
01:05:39.780 --> 01:05:42.000
You know, it's a more complex QR QR.
1356
01:05:42.300 --> 01:05:45.620
Like, you know, it's just one of the reasons why I hate seeing QR.
1357
01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:47.700
You know, I love the idea.
1358
01:05:47.820 --> 01:05:48.580
It's a cool idea.
1359
01:05:48.700 --> 01:05:49.380
Don't get me wrong.
1360
01:05:49.500 --> 01:05:52.540
But like, it's fucking terrible because QRs were designed for cameras.
1361
01:05:52.660 --> 01:05:54.400
So your security cameras all over your houses.
1362
01:05:54.780 --> 01:05:54.880
Right.
1363
01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:57.460
Like your camera TV has a fucking camera nowadays.
1364
01:05:57.600 --> 01:05:57.740
Right.
1365
01:05:57.740 --> 01:06:01.680
Like can read your seed now because you forgot that one camera.
1366
01:06:02.100 --> 01:06:05.180
This goes back to if you're doing seed level operations at any point in your
1367
01:06:05.180 --> 01:06:06.920
security, that should be really painful.
1368
01:06:07.240 --> 01:06:08.400
Yes, it should not be easy.
1369
01:06:08.400 --> 01:06:11.680
Like if you're at the seed level of a recovery.
1370
01:06:12.120 --> 01:06:12.220
Yes.
1371
01:06:12.360 --> 01:06:14.000
This is not the fun path.
1372
01:06:14.080 --> 01:06:15.120
This is not the happy path.
1373
01:06:15.240 --> 01:06:16.920
This is a disaster contingency.
1374
01:06:17.340 --> 01:06:17.440
Yes.
1375
01:06:17.520 --> 01:06:19.940
And because of that, there should be very high friction.
1376
01:06:20.420 --> 01:06:22.720
And that friction is part of the security of the whole process.
1377
01:06:23.700 --> 01:06:23.880
Yeah.
1378
01:06:24.020 --> 01:06:26.300
I mean, think think about it this way.
1379
01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:30.920
It's like if you don't want to deal with seed words because it's painful to tap
1380
01:06:30.920 --> 01:06:33.560
those into a plate, you know, go get a bit key.
1381
01:06:34.420 --> 01:06:38.080
You know, like, no, seriously, like they did all the work for you.
1382
01:06:38.080 --> 01:06:39.500
You lose some privacy there.
1383
01:06:39.620 --> 01:06:40.740
There is trade offs.
1384
01:06:41.100 --> 01:06:41.200
Right.
1385
01:06:41.500 --> 01:06:43.900
But but it's like incredibly easy to use.
1386
01:06:44.260 --> 01:06:47.740
And it's for the people that don't want to be sovereign in the sense of like,
1387
01:06:47.820 --> 01:06:49.140
you know, they know what's going on.
1388
01:06:49.380 --> 01:06:49.820
Right.
1389
01:06:49.860 --> 01:06:56.600
Like I generally feel that a seed QR person is better served by using a bit
1390
01:06:56.600 --> 01:07:03.140
key with block than they are by using like a QR code with like words in
1391
01:07:03.140 --> 01:07:03.520
it.
1392
01:07:04.120 --> 01:07:07.520
And if you're like if you can't afford a real hard wallet, I mean, like you
1393
01:07:07.520 --> 01:07:09.940
probably don't have enough Bitcoin that you need to do that anyways.
1394
01:07:10.760 --> 01:07:17.280
Like it feels just like it's trying to make fun things, experimental things
1395
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:20.780
into sort of like life dependent, critical things.
1396
01:07:20.940 --> 01:07:21.980
It's never a good idea.
1397
01:07:22.820 --> 01:07:24.780
You know, like and it comes from the same source.
1398
01:07:24.900 --> 01:07:30.540
It's like there is this cohort of the market that wants to do like hobby things
1399
01:07:30.540 --> 01:07:35.920
for professional things and you know, like use the same device for all the
1400
01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:39.700
seeds to sign, you know, and like it's all these bad practices.
1401
01:07:39.980 --> 01:07:40.600
It's all together.
1402
01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:41.200
Right.
1403
01:07:41.240 --> 01:07:42.660
Like when is it necessary?
1404
01:07:44.060 --> 01:07:46.380
Anyways, that's that's just how I feel about it.
1405
01:07:49.200 --> 01:07:49.640
Yeah.
1406
01:07:51.040 --> 01:07:51.780
All right.
1407
01:07:52.360 --> 01:07:54.980
Next, the second item on the list, I think we're on now.
1408
01:07:55.340 --> 01:07:56.440
The second item on the list.
1409
01:07:58.520 --> 01:08:00.500
We're going to likely cut short today.
1410
01:08:01.460 --> 01:08:05.140
You know, I enjoy this security conversation with you guys more than than
1411
01:08:05.140 --> 01:08:05.740
reading the list.
1412
01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:11.280
You know, it's weird that we get people who who are just building wallets every
1413
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:12.780
day, all day like you guys do.
1414
01:08:13.560 --> 01:08:14.860
So, you know, why not?
1415
01:08:15.200 --> 01:08:18.420
Yeah, I mean, actually, I just want to say one last last thing.
1416
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:23.660
I have never realized that having that, that having having an unusual multisig
1417
01:08:23.660 --> 01:08:25.380
is actually a benefit.
1418
01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:28.840
And I realized that today there is a there's a benefit to having an unusual.
1419
01:08:29.660 --> 01:08:31.420
I'm going to say like three out of seven.
1420
01:08:31.540 --> 01:08:33.380
I mean, I'm not suggesting people do that.
1421
01:08:33.380 --> 01:08:37.240
Like, you know, but even like, you know, three out of four or, you know, three
1422
01:08:37.240 --> 01:08:42.300
out of six or four out of six, whatever, there's a benefit because the chance
1423
01:08:42.300 --> 01:08:46.439
of being able to guess that hash because that whole thing gets hashed, hashed
1424
01:08:46.439 --> 01:08:51.100
to one, one hash, you have to recreate that that hash is you just you're just
1425
01:08:51.100 --> 01:08:52.800
taking yourself out of contention.
1426
01:08:53.100 --> 01:08:54.680
You're really in a different space.
1427
01:08:55.080 --> 01:08:55.380
Massively.
1428
01:08:55.899 --> 01:08:57.120
There's a trade off, though.
1429
01:08:57.300 --> 01:08:59.020
So there is because I've thought of this because.
1430
01:08:59.140 --> 01:09:00.200
You can just destroy one key.
1431
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:02.140
You set up three out of seven.
1432
01:09:02.160 --> 01:09:02.580
That's true.
1433
01:09:02.580 --> 01:09:07.620
And you literally just get like, you know, you just regen on screen, you know,
1434
01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:09.060
boom, regen gone.
1435
01:09:10.060 --> 01:09:14.720
So the one trade off to be in mind is that with that unique script template,
1436
01:09:14.819 --> 01:09:16.640
you then have that's harder to guess.
1437
01:09:16.720 --> 01:09:18.040
You then have a unique on-chain footprint.
1438
01:09:18.439 --> 01:09:18.740
Yes, yes.
1439
01:09:19.140 --> 01:09:19.279
Right.
1440
01:09:19.340 --> 01:09:22.140
So that is your that is that is the other side of the coin.
1441
01:09:22.439 --> 01:09:22.880
Right.
1442
01:09:23.020 --> 01:09:27.220
There's one dude, you know, on chain, you know, like three out of seven.
1443
01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:28.060
Right.
1444
01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:28.760
Right.
1445
01:09:28.880 --> 01:09:31.680
And that's this is something we thought about at Anchorage because like we have
1446
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:34.720
unique just script templates anyway, right, because we're doing time locks and
1447
01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:38.920
all of these different things that this is part of that where it's not it has
1448
01:09:38.920 --> 01:09:40.040
a unique on-chain fingerprint.
1449
01:09:40.680 --> 01:09:44.120
I think Taproot helps mitigate some of this stuff, but it's not it's not
1450
01:09:44.120 --> 01:09:46.700
entirety depending on what your script path is.
1451
01:09:46.740 --> 01:09:46.840
Right.
1452
01:09:46.859 --> 01:09:50.020
So you could have there's one way where you could just have a two of three
1453
01:09:50.020 --> 01:09:52.560
multi-sig and then the happy path is just a two or three multi-sig.
1454
01:09:52.600 --> 01:09:57.520
And then maybe you have a two or four multi-sig later if something goes wrong.
1455
01:09:57.860 --> 01:09:58.940
That's actually pretty clean.
1456
01:09:58.940 --> 01:09:59.160
Right.
1457
01:09:59.240 --> 01:10:02.160
But if you get more advanced in these script combinations, like you're
1458
01:10:02.160 --> 01:10:06.080
requiring two different keys to sign, like then it does have an on-chain
1459
01:10:06.080 --> 01:10:06.280
footprint.
1460
01:10:06.580 --> 01:10:09.900
You know, you can go retard, which is kind of fun.
1461
01:10:10.160 --> 01:10:12.100
You can do a one out of two.
1462
01:10:12.620 --> 01:10:12.740
Yeah.
1463
01:10:13.020 --> 01:10:13.320
OK.
1464
01:10:13.640 --> 01:10:16.040
And then you can have each of those be frost.
1465
01:10:17.200 --> 01:10:17.600
You could.
1466
01:10:18.140 --> 01:10:18.360
Yeah.
1467
01:10:18.440 --> 01:10:19.720
Frost is another interesting layer.
1468
01:10:19.860 --> 01:10:21.000
There's two frost and mu-sig.
1469
01:10:21.140 --> 01:10:22.220
Because frost is not the coin.
1470
01:10:22.360 --> 01:10:24.040
That's the part that I don't think people get.
1471
01:10:24.600 --> 01:10:24.800
No.
1472
01:10:25.120 --> 01:10:28.080
You know, it's just it's just the key off-chain computation.
1473
01:10:28.080 --> 01:10:31.820
It's just, yeah, it's the off-chain computation to make that one key signature.
1474
01:10:32.140 --> 01:10:33.780
It has nothing to do with Bitcoin.
1475
01:10:33.880 --> 01:10:35.120
It's not on-chain.
1476
01:10:35.480 --> 01:10:38.780
So, yeah, people may not and it's plausibly deniable or whatever.
1477
01:10:38.900 --> 01:10:41.420
But it's actually a terrible plausibility here because now they're going to
1478
01:10:41.420 --> 01:10:42.960
think they can just beat you to go in the keys.
1479
01:10:43.220 --> 01:10:45.540
But you want the opposite of that.
1480
01:10:45.900 --> 01:10:47.480
No, but yeah, that's a good point, too.
1481
01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:50.400
When you combine all this stuff with frost and mu-sig, you can actually even
1482
01:10:50.400 --> 01:10:53.120
further break those key heuristics of what your threshold and your quorums are,
1483
01:10:53.380 --> 01:10:53.700
for sure.
1484
01:10:53.700 --> 01:10:58.740
Yeah, but I mean, I guess I guess that you could guess a single key for
1485
01:10:58.740 --> 01:11:00.840
a one or two frost.
1486
01:11:01.180 --> 01:11:01.820
Oh, am I wrong?
1487
01:11:01.940 --> 01:11:04.420
And I guess we're getting out of our comfort zone.
1488
01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:08.680
So the public key or you're talking like the signing key, signing, signing,
1489
01:11:08.820 --> 01:11:09.300
signing key.
1490
01:11:09.900 --> 01:11:10.520
I mean, is it not?
1491
01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:17.460
It does there exist, at least in theory, a signing key for a frost mu-sig,
1492
01:11:17.620 --> 01:11:19.080
a single signing key.
1493
01:11:19.320 --> 01:11:23.140
Oh, you're saying that it's like a collision where basically you could find a
1494
01:11:23.140 --> 01:11:26.480
private key that also coincidentally maps onto a sharded key.
1495
01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:26.820
Correct.
1496
01:11:27.260 --> 01:11:27.900
I understand.
1497
01:11:28.020 --> 01:11:30.840
I don't understand conceptually why that wouldn't be possible if all keys exist
1498
01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:32.400
between zero and two to the 256.
1499
01:11:32.900 --> 01:11:34.160
It's an interesting question.
1500
01:11:34.580 --> 01:11:35.680
Which is a number so big.
1501
01:11:36.100 --> 01:11:38.380
But yeah, it's almost like a hash collision, right?
1502
01:11:38.420 --> 01:11:41.840
Like you're finding two different two different circumstances that derive to
1503
01:11:41.840 --> 01:11:42.960
the same public key, ultimately.
1504
01:11:43.520 --> 01:11:43.700
Yeah.
1505
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:46.260
I mean, if you're that lucky, I think you have bigger problems.
1506
01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:48.320
True.
1507
01:11:48.780 --> 01:11:52.720
That's like logging into Sparrow, generate seed, write it down, turn it on.
1508
01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:54.040
And all of a sudden there's a hundred Bitcoin in there.
1509
01:11:54.080 --> 01:11:56.220
It's more atoms than there is in the universe.
1510
01:11:56.860 --> 01:11:56.960
Right.
1511
01:11:57.120 --> 01:11:57.360
Yeah.
1512
01:11:57.740 --> 01:12:00.280
Yeah, I think we're well outside the bounds here.
1513
01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:03.900
Instead of mining Bitcoin, let's just mine all the Bitcoin seed phrases.
1514
01:12:04.320 --> 01:12:04.420
Right.
1515
01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:09.300
That's real lotto mining, is you just single instead of mining address, mining
1516
01:12:09.300 --> 01:12:10.660
blocks, you're just mining addresses.
1517
01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:11.100
Right.
1518
01:12:11.360 --> 01:12:15.980
I bet there is a lot of people there wasting their time trying to try to
1519
01:12:15.980 --> 01:12:16.800
get Satoshi's key.
1520
01:12:16.980 --> 01:12:20.180
You know, they don't even know that there is a bug that it can't spend Genesis
1521
01:12:20.180 --> 01:12:23.300
block, but it doesn't prevent them from not knowing that it's still trying.
1522
01:12:23.840 --> 01:12:24.140
Exactly.
1523
01:12:25.900 --> 01:12:26.420
Exactly.
1524
01:12:27.360 --> 01:12:28.440
It would be amazing, right?
1525
01:12:28.500 --> 01:12:29.700
Like, we found the key.
1526
01:12:29.860 --> 01:12:31.060
Oh, wait, we can't sign it.
1527
01:12:33.280 --> 01:12:33.820
That's right.
1528
01:12:34.860 --> 01:12:35.640
Too funny.
1529
01:12:36.060 --> 01:12:37.740
And somehow Craig Wright is probably involved.
1530
01:12:38.580 --> 01:12:38.780
Yeah.
1531
01:12:39.980 --> 01:12:40.360
All right.
1532
01:12:40.960 --> 01:12:41.780
Bitcoin keeper.
1533
01:12:42.420 --> 01:12:43.240
Item number two.
1534
01:12:43.740 --> 01:12:48.000
Mobile version 1.3.0. Subscriptions.
1535
01:12:49.660 --> 01:12:52.840
Inheritance planning, key sharing, transactions.
1536
01:12:53.040 --> 01:13:00.960
Desktop version 0.1.4. Allow getting specific PIP44 accounts from a device.
1537
01:13:01.500 --> 01:13:05.360
And taproot key when getting device XPUBs.
1538
01:13:05.560 --> 01:13:06.640
Another miniscript wallet.
1539
01:13:06.920 --> 01:13:08.980
That's how they're doing the inheritance stuff with different spending paths.
1540
01:13:09.660 --> 01:13:09.800
Cool.
1541
01:13:10.300 --> 01:13:12.180
And it's on mobile app too, fully open source.
1542
01:13:12.300 --> 01:13:16.380
Ben Kaufman, formerly of Spectre, is on the project now.
1543
01:13:16.380 --> 01:13:20.500
So it's good to have him back in Bitcoin development and working on some really
1544
01:13:20.500 --> 01:13:20.940
cool stuff.
1545
01:13:21.380 --> 01:13:22.840
Yeah, he's moving things along there.
1546
01:13:23.220 --> 01:13:23.320
Yeah.
1547
01:13:23.860 --> 01:13:29.980
BlueWallet version 7.0.5. Offline import, coin control, AMD, Fiat.
1548
01:13:30.400 --> 01:13:31.780
I don't know what these things are.
1549
01:13:32.420 --> 01:13:32.580
Cool.
1550
01:13:33.680 --> 01:13:41.180
Floresta version 0.7.0. A fully validating Bitcoin node powered by U3 EXO with
1551
01:13:41.180 --> 01:13:42.360
an integrated Electrum server.
1552
01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:43.080
Neat.
1553
01:13:44.480 --> 01:13:49.180
LabelBase version 2.2.3. Javier updated this.
1554
01:13:49.300 --> 01:13:49.760
Very cool.
1555
01:13:50.260 --> 01:13:55.300
By the way, maybe Javier could make a little, because he could alter his,
1556
01:13:56.000 --> 01:13:59.340
remember he used to have PushTX, that system to push transactions.
1557
01:13:59.540 --> 01:14:01.280
Maybe that's the solution for now.
1558
01:14:01.940 --> 01:14:03.960
For the grub brain broadcast pool.
1559
01:14:04.240 --> 01:14:04.640
Exactly.
1560
01:14:05.400 --> 01:14:07.940
That could be helpful, sort of like turnkey solution.
1561
01:14:08.080 --> 01:14:11.360
You just have to run your own for now until Cord does it.
1562
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:12.920
Yeah, yeah.
1563
01:14:13.160 --> 01:14:14.460
But let's do it right, guys.
1564
01:14:14.700 --> 01:14:14.900
Come on.
1565
01:14:17.220 --> 01:14:22.740
BDK version 1.0-beta.6. Final beta.
1566
01:14:23.300 --> 01:14:24.240
The final beta.
1567
01:14:24.500 --> 01:14:25.660
The final beta.
1568
01:14:26.180 --> 01:14:32.480
Fully noded version 0.0.0.6. Production ready.
1569
01:14:33.680 --> 01:14:39.740
We've connected QR code, URLs no longer contain RPC credentials, a few other
1570
01:14:39.740 --> 01:14:40.120
things.
1571
01:14:40.240 --> 01:14:41.280
Tweaks of JM config.
1572
01:14:41.770 --> 01:14:43.020
That's for dry markets.
1573
01:14:44.040 --> 01:14:50.900
BTC pay server version 2.0.4. Add QR code, link with invitation email.
1574
01:14:52.280 --> 01:14:53.260
Zaprite updated.
1575
01:14:54.200 --> 01:14:55.040
Peach updated.
1576
01:14:55.640 --> 01:14:56.420
Bolts updated.
1577
01:14:56.860 --> 01:14:57.640
ESP miner.
1578
01:14:58.520 --> 01:14:59.300
Clems remote.
1579
01:14:59.920 --> 01:15:00.480
Mempaw.
1580
01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:01.600
Mempaw, what's that?
1581
01:15:02.460 --> 01:15:06.060
A Bitcoin mempool monitoring and notification app for Android.
1582
01:15:07.280 --> 01:15:13.560
Kyoto, a Bitcoin Lite client implementation of BIP-157 and BIP-158.
1583
01:15:14.200 --> 01:15:16.340
Pass fee filter to client.
1584
01:15:16.700 --> 01:15:18.660
Add Signet and Bitcoin checkpoints.
1585
01:15:19.960 --> 01:15:22.800
Liftbay, Bitcoin Lightning wallet for iOS.
1586
01:15:24.640 --> 01:15:25.760
Project Spotlight LARC.
1587
01:15:25.900 --> 01:15:29.740
Command line application for the LARC USB hardware wallet library.
1588
01:15:31.020 --> 01:15:34.680
We just did a nice 40 minutes about it, but quick update.
1589
01:15:34.680 --> 01:15:35.760
Lifetime update.
1590
01:15:36.620 --> 01:15:38.500
Just talked to Salvatore at Ledger.
1591
01:15:39.060 --> 01:15:40.560
The HMAC is tied to the seed.
1592
01:15:40.980 --> 01:15:43.540
So if you reconstitute your seed on a different device, then you're fine.
1593
01:15:44.140 --> 01:15:44.260
Great.
1594
01:15:44.580 --> 01:15:46.080
OK, good to know.
1595
01:15:46.220 --> 01:15:47.320
Portability is everything.
1596
01:15:47.760 --> 01:15:48.600
Seeds are a superpower.
1597
01:15:49.280 --> 01:15:50.420
And Salvatore says hi.
1598
01:15:51.180 --> 01:15:52.780
He wanted me to let the whole podcast know.
1599
01:15:53.780 --> 01:15:54.780
Hi, Salvatore.
1600
01:15:55.500 --> 01:15:58.240
When is he going to make the full transition to core?
1601
01:15:58.620 --> 01:15:59.160
I don't know.
1602
01:15:59.280 --> 01:16:02.860
He just asked me when many script on cold card main firmware.
1603
01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:06.640
Hey, listen, tell him to make a PR.
1604
01:16:09.540 --> 01:16:11.140
Spectre, Shield, Lite.
1605
01:16:12.340 --> 01:16:17.080
Low cost secure element backed security for DIY Bitcoin hardware wallet.
1606
01:16:18.080 --> 01:16:18.560
Covenant Support.
1607
01:16:19.420 --> 01:16:21.460
Shit, I am confused here now.
1608
01:16:21.680 --> 01:16:23.260
Is this part of something else?
1609
01:16:23.700 --> 01:16:30.700
Covenant Support, our beloved floppy disk guy, has a page on the Bitcoin wiki
1610
01:16:31.220 --> 01:16:34.640
where it looks like there's like around 30 developers now who put their
1611
01:16:34.640 --> 01:16:38.280
preferences for different covenant opcodes, like just lose signaling between
1612
01:16:38.280 --> 01:16:39.600
like I reject this to.
1613
01:16:39.680 --> 01:16:40.120
That's a skirt.
1614
01:16:40.280 --> 01:16:42.080
Just just to have people have a conversation.
1615
01:16:42.540 --> 01:16:43.220
Yeah, absolutely.
1616
01:16:43.620 --> 01:16:44.140
We did that.
1617
01:16:44.260 --> 01:16:47.240
We did that for a for a segway.
1618
01:16:47.700 --> 01:16:48.480
And P2SH.
1619
01:16:49.060 --> 01:16:52.260
Funny enough, it's actually it goes all the way back, actually.
1620
01:16:52.360 --> 01:16:56.400
Like on that Bitcoin wiki, you can look at the P2SH one.
1621
01:16:56.540 --> 01:16:57.060
It's like seven.
1622
01:16:57.340 --> 01:17:00.460
It's like Gavin, Luke and like Peter Will and like two other devs.
1623
01:17:00.460 --> 01:17:03.160
Like there's only five devs that are talking about P2SH.
1624
01:17:03.340 --> 01:17:04.240
And then we did it for Segwit.
1625
01:17:04.380 --> 01:17:08.200
So I think our beloved floppy disk guy is continuing that tradition.
1626
01:17:08.400 --> 01:17:13.800
And just it's a whole table full up with OPCTV, Checksig from Stack, Pair
1627
01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:21.840
Commit, Internal Key, Opcat, CCV, which is a check contract verify and OpVault,
1628
01:17:21.940 --> 01:17:23.180
TxHash and APO.
1629
01:17:23.380 --> 01:17:27.380
And just like thumbs up, thumbs down, middling, slightly positive, slightly
1630
01:17:27.380 --> 01:17:31.560
negative and just getting developers to talk about their rationale and how they
1631
01:17:31.560 --> 01:17:32.460
feel about each of the opcodes.
1632
01:17:32.720 --> 01:17:37.120
I highly recommend people go look at my old little website, UASF.org.
1633
01:17:38.200 --> 01:17:43.380
And we have, you know, like all the stuff from back in the day, the proof
1634
01:17:43.380 --> 01:17:45.960
of like who support which company supports what.
1635
01:17:46.440 --> 01:17:50.000
And and, you know, maybe take a look at the model.
1636
01:17:50.340 --> 01:17:53.020
And I'm not suggesting you do a UASF.
1637
01:17:53.160 --> 01:17:53.960
Don't do that.
1638
01:17:54.080 --> 01:17:55.480
It's going to backfire on this one.
1639
01:17:55.480 --> 01:18:01.180
But, you know, like to build rally support and stuff, I highly recommend go
1640
01:18:01.180 --> 01:18:01.740
read that.
1641
01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:05.240
How to compile clients and everything.
1642
01:18:05.720 --> 01:18:07.540
Yeah, we did the whole works.
1643
01:18:08.320 --> 01:18:13.220
Kibo, an open source Bitcoin core data extractor and visualizer.
1644
01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:17.740
Oh, it's an open source alternative to Glassnode.
1645
01:18:18.880 --> 01:18:19.640
Interesting.
1646
01:18:20.420 --> 01:18:25.300
Saving Satoshi, the world's first interactive practice focused game to teach
1647
01:18:25.300 --> 01:18:26.780
you Bitcoin development.
1648
01:18:28.260 --> 01:18:29.660
Fully noted server.
1649
01:18:31.220 --> 01:18:34.920
Timestamp, a platform that enables both accredited and non-accredited investors
1650
01:18:34.920 --> 01:18:36.760
to invest in Bitcoin, open source companies.
1651
01:18:37.520 --> 01:18:38.900
Oh, yeah, I was looking at some of that.
1652
01:18:39.780 --> 01:18:40.620
Who did this?
1653
01:18:41.620 --> 01:18:43.200
He was on my DMs recently.
1654
01:18:44.060 --> 01:18:45.940
Hmm, I saw they...
1655
01:18:45.940 --> 01:18:46.320
I forgot.
1656
01:18:46.700 --> 01:18:47.720
I saw this announcement.
1657
01:18:47.900 --> 01:18:49.400
Yeah, but I'm not sure who's running it.
1658
01:18:49.400 --> 01:18:56.200
Satoshi, winner's club, carefully curated gift cards, discounts, loyalty
1659
01:18:56.200 --> 01:18:56.860
program.
1660
01:18:57.460 --> 01:19:00.400
5% discount is offered to Coin Cash products.
1661
01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:02.120
Satoshi is platform gift card.
1662
01:19:02.760 --> 01:19:04.960
Okay, another platform for gift cards.
1663
01:19:06.600 --> 01:19:11.500
Hasminer, control and monitor your Bitcoin miner from Home Assist.
1664
01:19:12.360 --> 01:19:18.000
Entropy, a collection of open source Bitcoin workshops, projects and hackathons
1665
01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:24.540
and software by D++, FlipDev launches, FlipDev started a course.
1666
01:19:26.180 --> 01:19:26.560
Cool.
1667
01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:34.360
Vulnerability disclosures, DroidBot target banking and crypto apps across
1668
01:19:34.360 --> 01:19:34.920
Europe.
1669
01:19:35.880 --> 01:19:36.060
Yay.
1670
01:19:36.840 --> 01:19:42.620
Damage card and SD Express card vulnerability, exposed memory risks in laptops
1671
01:19:42.620 --> 01:19:43.260
and consoles.
1672
01:19:43.540 --> 01:19:44.000
There you go.
1673
01:19:44.260 --> 01:19:44.880
Computers.
1674
01:19:45.320 --> 01:19:46.460
Raspberry Pi is a computer.
1675
01:19:47.740 --> 01:19:56.360
Web3, malicious version of Solana and Solana's Web3.js NPM library exposes
1676
01:19:56.360 --> 01:19:57.240
private keys.
1677
01:19:57.440 --> 01:19:57.680
Jesus.
1678
01:19:58.180 --> 01:20:02.260
This is because I was looking at this, they pushed a bug version update.
1679
01:20:02.540 --> 01:20:05.380
And so what a lot of developers do is they'll just pin to like the major
1680
01:20:05.380 --> 01:20:05.780
version.
1681
01:20:05.960 --> 01:20:08.700
Because like, oh, I want to be able to do things and they can push updates.
1682
01:20:08.820 --> 01:20:12.000
But if it doesn't break, I don't want to update the major versions.
1683
01:20:12.600 --> 01:20:15.400
Which is really funny because the moment you think if I'm an attacker, okay, I
1684
01:20:15.400 --> 01:20:17.720
won't make it a major version update, I'll just make it a bug version update.
1685
01:20:18.080 --> 01:20:20.940
And so sure enough, it was the last decimal point on the version release.
1686
01:20:21.800 --> 01:20:24.380
And this is storing your keys in the browser.
1687
01:20:24.620 --> 01:20:28.460
Downside is if it's right there in the browser and someone can just push
1688
01:20:28.460 --> 01:20:30.960
something, it's going to get going.
1689
01:20:31.240 --> 01:20:32.920
Don't use JavaScript or Bitcoin.
1690
01:20:33.820 --> 01:20:36.380
Do not put private keys in browsers.
1691
01:20:36.960 --> 01:20:37.500
Do not.
1692
01:20:37.660 --> 01:20:38.780
They do not belong in browsers.
1693
01:20:38.980 --> 01:20:40.280
No, just don't use JavaScript.
1694
01:20:40.560 --> 01:20:41.540
It's very simple.
1695
01:20:41.940 --> 01:20:45.040
Okay, because it's a mentality problem, it's a dependency problem.
1696
01:20:45.740 --> 01:20:49.740
It's everything that is wrong with secure development is in JavaScript.
1697
01:20:50.980 --> 01:20:52.660
And sorry, but it's true.
1698
01:20:52.980 --> 01:20:56.820
You know, go make, I don't know, like recipe sharing apps and, you know,
1699
01:20:56.900 --> 01:20:59.120
Instagram, Instacart, whatever.
1700
01:20:59.340 --> 01:21:00.600
Like great, great JavaScript.
1701
01:21:00.780 --> 01:21:01.280
Great for that.
1702
01:21:01.340 --> 01:21:02.620
Makes beautiful UIs.
1703
01:21:03.500 --> 01:21:08.000
Yeah, they were able to fish the project maintainer and then went to the
1704
01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:08.860
project maintainer.
1705
01:21:09.420 --> 01:21:13.340
And the downstream consequences were there were a lot of people using this
1706
01:21:13.340 --> 01:21:14.780
library who didn't do version pinning.
1707
01:21:14.780 --> 01:21:16.600
And that would be my other advice.
1708
01:21:16.600 --> 01:21:19.820
If you're going to use JavaScript, there's no reason why you should be randomly
1709
01:21:19.820 --> 01:21:22.600
updating cryptographic libraries on the fly.
1710
01:21:22.700 --> 01:21:25.080
Well, even like here, it was like super secure.
1711
01:21:25.220 --> 01:21:30.800
They were like the CDN was attacked where they were serving their own NPM
1712
01:21:30.800 --> 01:21:35.740
extension or it was some other smart contract shit that they were pulling from
1713
01:21:35.740 --> 01:21:36.460
some CDN.
1714
01:21:36.660 --> 01:21:39.020
And then, you know, people lost money like.
1715
01:21:39.240 --> 01:21:42.620
Yeah, having those things locked down, if you're offering services, you
1716
01:21:42.620 --> 01:21:44.560
shouldn't be at the whims of whenever.
1717
01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:46.400
And who's auditing this shit?
1718
01:21:46.780 --> 01:21:48.920
All those libraries that people just fucking pull from the web.
1719
01:21:48.960 --> 01:21:51.020
If they're pulling from the web, they're not auditing it.
1720
01:21:51.140 --> 01:21:54.880
Yeah, that's you should be pinning that stuff, locking it down if you're going
1721
01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:55.660
to be using stuff.
1722
01:21:55.780 --> 01:21:58.500
There's no reason why you should be at the whims of whatever package maintainer
1723
01:21:58.500 --> 01:22:02.600
pushes something out, even if you trust them, because people get compromised in
1724
01:22:02.600 --> 01:22:02.740
time.
1725
01:22:03.000 --> 01:22:06.380
People are using like full on full Debian in like signers.
1726
01:22:07.120 --> 01:22:09.060
Like nobody's auditing the packages.
1727
01:22:09.560 --> 01:22:10.020
Guarantee you.
1728
01:22:10.020 --> 01:22:11.940
But I mean, it goes beyond that.
1729
01:22:12.020 --> 01:22:15.820
Like you can have man in the middle attacks of, you know, I wanted this
1730
01:22:15.820 --> 01:22:18.780
version, but actually I got a modified version because someone was sitting
1731
01:22:18.780 --> 01:22:20.060
between me and the server.
1732
01:22:20.240 --> 01:22:21.240
I mean, it's just crazy.
1733
01:22:21.380 --> 01:22:21.940
It is insane.
1734
01:22:22.200 --> 01:22:26.140
To be putting private keys and browsers and downloading libraries of the
1735
01:22:26.140 --> 01:22:28.240
internet to work on those private keys.
1736
01:22:28.480 --> 01:22:29.880
It's nuts.
1737
01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:34.820
And it's going to keep on getting hacked because it's easy to hack.
1738
01:22:34.880 --> 01:22:35.060
Yeah.
1739
01:22:35.180 --> 01:22:36.540
That is simple.
1740
01:22:36.800 --> 01:22:37.740
Oh, it's going to get much worse.
1741
01:22:37.820 --> 01:22:39.540
We haven't even started, right?
1742
01:22:39.540 --> 01:22:43.900
Even on the Bitcoin devices too, like we haven't even started because, you
1743
01:22:43.900 --> 01:22:47.920
know, right now is what, like a basis point of the world's population that has
1744
01:22:47.920 --> 01:22:51.440
like crypto, you know, and crypto devices.
1745
01:22:52.040 --> 01:22:54.540
Like, so I'm abroad in here outside of Bitcoin as well.
1746
01:22:54.660 --> 01:22:54.840
Right.
1747
01:22:55.340 --> 01:22:59.260
Like imagine when it's like 10% of the world's population, like it's going to
1748
01:22:59.260 --> 01:23:04.080
be like every day, all day fucking festival, you know, of shit getting taken.
1749
01:23:04.360 --> 01:23:05.200
Like it's.
1750
01:23:07.820 --> 01:23:13.820
Yeah, we will have to relearn the proper fundamentals over and over until
1751
01:23:13.820 --> 01:23:15.500
people do the right thing.
1752
01:23:15.560 --> 01:23:20.420
Just to say, this is reminding me because it was like basically metamask
1753
01:23:20.420 --> 01:23:20.980
extension.
1754
01:23:21.420 --> 01:23:25.540
Metamask actually just added Bitcoin dev kit for Bitcoin support using Wasm.
1755
01:23:25.940 --> 01:23:27.640
And basically it binds it all.
1756
01:23:28.180 --> 01:23:31.200
I think that stuff is also because it's metamask storing the browser.
1757
01:23:31.360 --> 01:23:34.100
So even though it's BDK, that does not mean it's secure because if you're
1758
01:23:34.100 --> 01:23:35.340
storing the browser, you're storing in the browser.
1759
01:23:35.820 --> 01:23:40.720
But it was at least interesting to see that the metamask team took all the BDK
1760
01:23:40.720 --> 01:23:44.720
code, ran it through the foreign language bindings and Wasm.
1761
01:23:44.840 --> 01:23:48.200
So now you are able to run Bitcoin dev kit through your metamask as an
1762
01:23:48.200 --> 01:23:50.060
extension, which is conceptually cool.
1763
01:23:50.340 --> 01:23:50.700
I still would.
1764
01:23:50.920 --> 01:23:53.580
I think the next step would be enabled PSPT support.
1765
01:23:53.800 --> 01:23:57.060
So I could if I'm going to use metamask, I could still at least like ferry
1766
01:23:57.060 --> 01:23:57.660
it offline.
1767
01:23:58.220 --> 01:23:58.460
Right.
1768
01:23:58.580 --> 01:24:01.820
But just interesting seeing the ecosystem developed for sure.
1769
01:24:01.960 --> 01:24:02.120
Yeah.
1770
01:24:02.120 --> 01:24:03.580
All right.
1771
01:24:03.700 --> 01:24:04.880
Questions from the audience.
1772
01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:09.880
How do NVK and GAS feel about Google Willow quantum chip?
1773
01:24:10.060 --> 01:24:10.920
Is it a risk?
1774
01:24:12.040 --> 01:24:15.780
Oh man, like, you know, it's a nice advancement.
1775
01:24:16.660 --> 01:24:19.860
It's very, it's still very academic and theoretical, but like, I feel like we
1776
01:24:19.860 --> 01:24:20.680
now have a path.
1777
01:24:21.780 --> 01:24:25.620
If it's true, I'm not a quantum expert or like, you know, know enough about the
1778
01:24:25.620 --> 01:24:29.980
manufacturing of the shit to know if it's like, if it's like a 50 year problem,
1779
01:24:30.140 --> 01:24:34.240
if it's a 10 year problem or a five year problem, you know, we can change
1780
01:24:34.240 --> 01:24:35.500
Bitcoin's cryptography.
1781
01:24:35.680 --> 01:24:38.300
There is a lot of work being done on that on like, you know, choosing
1782
01:24:38.300 --> 01:24:41.420
alternatives, becoming more quantum resistant.
1783
01:24:42.500 --> 01:24:47.840
And I wouldn't worry about it because, you know, if they break SHA-256, we have
1784
01:24:47.840 --> 01:24:48.680
much bigger problems.
1785
01:24:48.900 --> 01:24:49.900
Planes fall from the sky.
1786
01:24:50.460 --> 01:24:51.100
That's the bar.
1787
01:24:51.940 --> 01:24:55.200
Like literally everything in your modern life ends.
1788
01:24:55.940 --> 01:24:56.640
Military encryption.
1789
01:24:57.100 --> 01:24:57.440
Everything.
1790
01:24:57.760 --> 01:24:57.900
Yeah.
1791
01:24:57.900 --> 01:25:01.460
The firmware, planes, your computer, the water delivery, the fucking power
1792
01:25:01.460 --> 01:25:02.100
line, everything.
1793
01:25:03.020 --> 01:25:03.160
Yeah.
1794
01:25:03.220 --> 01:25:07.260
I mean, you know, I've read quite a lot on this because a lot of people
1795
01:25:07.260 --> 01:25:08.700
have expressed concern.
1796
01:25:08.840 --> 01:25:12.660
I think that that's very fair, but if you dig in and you read the people
1797
01:25:12.660 --> 01:25:17.680
who actually work in the field, they, you will generally get the view that, I
1798
01:25:17.680 --> 01:25:21.740
mean, anything can happen in the future, but we are going to need multiple
1799
01:25:21.740 --> 01:25:26.900
scientific breakthroughs in order to reach the level of quantum computing
1800
01:25:26.900 --> 01:25:27.420
needed.
1801
01:25:27.900 --> 01:25:29.440
And I mean, it's possible, right?
1802
01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:30.120
It's possible.
1803
01:25:30.320 --> 01:25:33.060
We could just have one breakthrough after the other, Monday, Tuesday,
1804
01:25:33.220 --> 01:25:36.200
Wednesday, Thursday, but the probability is very low.
1805
01:25:36.360 --> 01:25:39.220
It's just science doesn't usually happen that way.
1806
01:25:39.320 --> 01:25:44.200
It doesn't have a regular like it's breakthrough Thursday, guys, and we're
1807
01:25:44.200 --> 01:25:44.700
going to have another.
1808
01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:46.260
It just doesn't happen that way.
1809
01:25:46.580 --> 01:25:50.940
Mind you, if it does happen, they're getting a knock on the door because
1810
01:25:50.940 --> 01:25:52.180
everything breaks.
1811
01:25:52.620 --> 01:25:55.700
Like it's like it's like the equivalent of having an atomic bomb in your
1812
01:25:55.700 --> 01:25:56.460
fucking garage.
1813
01:25:56.460 --> 01:25:58.160
You know, like it's a problem.
1814
01:25:58.840 --> 01:26:02.460
It's also interesting going back to our conversation earlier of like you have
1815
01:26:02.460 --> 01:26:05.900
to like if you have a more unique on-chain address, it's harder to like reverse
1816
01:26:05.900 --> 01:26:06.540
guess the hash.
1817
01:26:06.640 --> 01:26:10.660
But in the event that quantum computing becomes accessible, if there were coins
1818
01:26:10.660 --> 01:26:14.100
that were to be moved, the first ones that move are Satoshi's because the way
1819
01:26:14.100 --> 01:26:17.320
Bitcoin was originally encoded before we ever hashed addresses is you put the
1820
01:26:17.320 --> 01:26:21.500
raw public key on the stack on chain as your UTXO.
1821
01:26:21.800 --> 01:26:25.340
So Satoshi for 15 years now has had his public keys just sitting there.
1822
01:26:25.340 --> 01:26:28.080
It's before we got paid a script hash and paid a public key hash and all
1823
01:26:28.080 --> 01:26:28.680
this other stuff.
1824
01:26:29.020 --> 01:26:30.660
So those are just sitting there for the taking.
1825
01:26:31.180 --> 01:26:33.160
The other it's like it's a funny barbell.
1826
01:26:33.240 --> 01:26:36.780
So the oldest addresses in Bitcoin are the ones most susceptible because
1827
01:26:36.780 --> 01:26:40.000
they've been around for 15 years or whatever, and they're bare public keys.
1828
01:26:40.200 --> 01:26:44.840
And on the other end, the most recent addresses, which are taproot addresses,
1829
01:26:45.220 --> 01:26:47.100
have the bare public key also.
1830
01:26:47.680 --> 01:26:47.860
Right.
1831
01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:52.820
So you can do so those are it's funny enough that if anything in between you
1832
01:26:52.820 --> 01:26:56.960
have a round of hashing, which obfuscates like finding random public keys and
1833
01:26:56.960 --> 01:26:57.960
like being able to crack them.
1834
01:26:58.560 --> 01:26:59.780
But that's something to consider.
1835
01:27:00.120 --> 01:27:03.760
From my perspective, what I think would be I'm not saying this is like an all
1836
01:27:03.760 --> 01:27:04.660
hands on deck emergency.
1837
01:27:04.980 --> 01:27:08.840
I think it'd be cool to at least conceptually explore what would a quantum
1838
01:27:08.840 --> 01:27:12.220
proof or post quantum signing algorithm look like.
1839
01:27:12.420 --> 01:27:16.680
I know there's things called Lamport signatures that are, you know, involving
1840
01:27:16.680 --> 01:27:17.000
hashing.
1841
01:27:17.120 --> 01:27:20.940
And like, basically, I know the opcat guys love those because you can actually
1842
01:27:20.940 --> 01:27:22.820
do Lamport signatures with cat.
1843
01:27:23.100 --> 01:27:26.620
So those signatures, though, I think are like six, eight kilobytes.
1844
01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:28.880
They're massive signatures, to be clear.
1845
01:27:29.840 --> 01:27:34.800
But it is something I know Hunter beast crypto quick on Twitter, who's a
1846
01:27:34.800 --> 01:27:38.340
longtime Bitcoin dev has also been talking about a new address format of like a
1847
01:27:38.340 --> 01:27:41.720
post quantum resistant, like version of what you would upgrade to this.
1848
01:27:41.900 --> 01:27:44.040
It's all super early speculation stuff.
1849
01:27:44.640 --> 01:27:49.560
I would be I would feel more comfortable if there was just a rough consensus on
1850
01:27:49.560 --> 01:27:52.520
what would a plan look like to be able to move things over?
1851
01:27:52.960 --> 01:27:53.100
Right.
1852
01:27:53.280 --> 01:27:54.600
I'm not saying we have to change anything today.
1853
01:27:54.680 --> 01:27:57.180
I'm not saying we have to emergency fork in anything to like try and mitigate
1854
01:27:57.180 --> 01:27:57.600
this.
1855
01:27:58.000 --> 01:28:01.320
It'd be cool to just know that in the event this happens, it's better to have
1856
01:28:01.320 --> 01:28:03.720
a plan ahead of time than trying to live react.
1857
01:28:03.860 --> 01:28:06.200
So that would be, I think, good use of time.
1858
01:28:06.280 --> 01:28:08.600
Some panel talks like people talking about this when they meet up in person
1859
01:28:08.600 --> 01:28:12.840
about like, what does that future look like if we have that like cascading over
1860
01:28:12.840 --> 01:28:16.080
a year, like major breakthroughs and all of a sudden Satoshi coins start moving
1861
01:28:16.080 --> 01:28:16.780
or something like that.
1862
01:28:17.160 --> 01:28:18.460
Not an emergency today, to be clear.
1863
01:28:18.460 --> 01:28:23.120
Yeah, I would be happy with that so long as it's done with the kind of
1864
01:28:23.120 --> 01:28:26.940
freedom to not choose the particular algorithm.
1865
01:28:27.100 --> 01:28:31.460
Because, I mean, as you both know, there are advancements in that field all the
1866
01:28:31.460 --> 01:28:31.980
time as well.
1867
01:28:32.120 --> 01:28:32.220
Sure.
1868
01:28:32.540 --> 01:28:38.160
So the benefit of us not putting, not actually baking something in now is that
1869
01:28:38.160 --> 01:28:41.060
we're going to get a much better, we're very likely to get a much better
1870
01:28:41.060 --> 01:28:43.720
algorithm in a few years time.
1871
01:28:44.040 --> 01:28:44.320
Agreed.
1872
01:28:44.420 --> 01:28:47.700
And, you know, knowing how Bitcoin development works is that somebody is going
1873
01:28:47.700 --> 01:28:52.200
to figure out how to make an adapter signature of some fucking insanity that
1874
01:28:52.200 --> 01:28:56.100
like, you know, you do a thing and then all of a sudden like it's resolved
1875
01:28:56.100 --> 01:28:57.240
without having to do anything.
1876
01:28:58.200 --> 01:29:02.080
I just I have a feeling that like that's that's the path, right?
1877
01:29:02.080 --> 01:29:06.880
Because you could actually put, you could put like essentially like we can all
1878
01:29:06.880 --> 01:29:07.640
choose a block.
1879
01:29:07.980 --> 01:29:11.620
And from that block on, signatures have to include something.
1880
01:29:11.880 --> 01:29:11.980
Sure.
1881
01:29:11.980 --> 01:29:17.700
And that's something could be the proof of, you know, on how you handle the old
1882
01:29:17.700 --> 01:29:20.500
signature, like the old keys maybe being compromised.
1883
01:29:21.940 --> 01:29:22.240
I don't know.
1884
01:29:22.360 --> 01:29:22.560
Who knows?
1885
01:29:22.800 --> 01:29:24.400
An extra commit step or something, right?
1886
01:29:24.440 --> 01:29:28.180
You would add you would add an additional like cryptography leg or something.
1887
01:29:28.600 --> 01:29:29.160
I don't know.
1888
01:29:29.700 --> 01:29:31.460
Conceptually, though, I guess you could do something like that.
1889
01:29:31.740 --> 01:29:34.440
You create a pre-commit somewhere, right?
1890
01:29:34.640 --> 01:29:35.460
Then of something.
1891
01:29:35.620 --> 01:29:36.420
You reveal a pre-commit.
1892
01:29:36.620 --> 01:29:36.720
Yeah.
1893
01:29:36.900 --> 01:29:37.300
Exactly.
1894
01:29:37.440 --> 01:29:40.780
You would have to review in order to get that sign or whatever.
1895
01:29:41.020 --> 01:29:41.140
Yeah.
1896
01:29:41.140 --> 01:29:43.860
Somebody that understands this shit for real.
1897
01:29:44.240 --> 01:29:45.660
I'm sure we'll come up with something.
1898
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:46.900
I'm not too concerned.
1899
01:29:48.140 --> 01:29:49.320
Again, much bigger problems.
1900
01:29:49.520 --> 01:29:54.600
Like, for example, I just want to broadcast my transactions in random orders
1901
01:29:54.600 --> 01:29:59.280
and transfer from one wallet to another like a good ape.
1902
01:30:01.460 --> 01:30:04.740
Can NVK and GAS comment on James OB recent tweet?
1903
01:30:04.980 --> 01:30:06.500
Very simple scenario for you.
1904
01:30:07.040 --> 01:30:12.100
Tomorrow, government announces that by end of week, all exchanges must move
1905
01:30:12.100 --> 01:30:18.420
held bitcoins over to one way fork that adds monetary policy tools, OFAC
1906
01:30:18.420 --> 01:30:21.820
compliance and exit for everyone who wants out.
1907
01:30:22.820 --> 01:30:24.820
This is why scaling matters.
1908
01:30:25.840 --> 01:30:29.240
What are your general thoughts on one way for hard forks?
1909
01:30:29.400 --> 01:30:31.080
I think it's a good luck to them.
1910
01:30:31.740 --> 01:30:36.380
I think coin goes to zero and the economic catastrophe that would be for those
1911
01:30:36.380 --> 01:30:36.840
companies.
1912
01:30:37.420 --> 01:30:39.400
If they're forced to, they'd probably sue the government.
1913
01:30:39.920 --> 01:30:41.020
I'm not concerned.
1914
01:30:41.740 --> 01:30:45.700
Think about how much more freedom Bitcoin is worth if we just burn millions and
1915
01:30:45.700 --> 01:30:47.940
millions of Bitcoin over into the other chain.
1916
01:30:48.420 --> 01:30:48.520
Yeah.
1917
01:30:48.580 --> 01:30:54.040
Plus, I mean, people would love to get an airdrop on the OFAC compliant coin as
1918
01:30:54.040 --> 01:30:55.280
well, because why not?
1919
01:30:55.580 --> 01:31:00.440
People are going to get an airdrop on both chains and they're going to dump the
1920
01:31:00.440 --> 01:31:04.420
OFAC airdrop and like and then they'll pay the tax on that and they're going to
1921
01:31:04.420 --> 01:31:05.040
move on something.
1922
01:31:05.240 --> 01:31:07.260
People are just so fucking done with this kind of shit.
1923
01:31:07.320 --> 01:31:08.700
I'm not not concerned.
1924
01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:12.780
To steel man with James's point, though, was that if you had a high need for
1925
01:31:12.780 --> 01:31:16.240
a high throughput of transactions, Bitcoin today just can't naturally support
1926
01:31:16.240 --> 01:31:16.480
that.
1927
01:31:16.740 --> 01:31:18.040
Yeah, that was his original point.
1928
01:31:18.040 --> 01:31:22.060
Was that like if you had these like, oh, shit, emergency situations for layer
1929
01:31:22.060 --> 01:31:25.600
one transactions and everyone wanted to start doing it, it just economically
1930
01:31:25.600 --> 01:31:26.480
can't support everyone.
1931
01:31:26.760 --> 01:31:30.000
Generally speaking on Bitcoin, if there is a problem, do nothing.
1932
01:31:31.950 --> 01:31:33.530
Just do nothing.
1933
01:31:34.970 --> 01:31:39.590
I mean, like that's been the best sort of thing to do with Bitcoin ever since
1934
01:31:39.590 --> 01:31:43.250
the beginning of Bitcoin, just literally like you buy the thing, you store the
1935
01:31:43.250 --> 01:31:44.090
thing, do nothing.
1936
01:31:44.970 --> 01:31:48.970
You know, if you need to like do something with a little bit that you have
1937
01:31:48.970 --> 01:31:51.210
that maybe is it more risk or whatever, do that.
1938
01:31:51.510 --> 01:31:56.150
If you don't know, I'm talking about like, you know, if you don't know, if
1939
01:31:56.150 --> 01:31:57.570
you're concerned, just do nothing.
1940
01:31:57.570 --> 01:32:02.030
My kind of view on this is that a lot of people spend a lot of
1941
01:32:02.030 --> 01:32:05.810
time agonizing on scaling Bitcoin.
1942
01:32:06.470 --> 01:32:12.270
I wish a little bit more effort went into or they go into scaling Bitcoin in
1943
01:32:12.270 --> 01:32:13.070
a technical sense.
1944
01:32:13.230 --> 01:32:19.050
I wish that more effort went into we need to scale Bitcoin self custody in a
1945
01:32:19.050 --> 01:32:24.330
social sense, because clearly it's not being used to the extent that people
1946
01:32:24.330 --> 01:32:25.350
thought it would be used.
1947
01:32:25.510 --> 01:32:27.090
Otherwise, our fees would be higher.
1948
01:32:27.690 --> 01:32:33.410
So, you know, why aren't there more people out there campaigning for self
1949
01:32:33.410 --> 01:32:35.090
custody as they used to be?
1950
01:32:35.290 --> 01:32:39.210
Because it seems like now a lot of people are saying, well, you know, this
1951
01:32:39.210 --> 01:32:43.030
person had a battle trying to get their coins into self custody.
1952
01:32:43.510 --> 01:32:45.290
You know what, they should just buy the ETF.
1953
01:32:45.710 --> 01:32:48.050
That seems to be what a lot of Bitcoiners are saying.
1954
01:32:48.310 --> 01:32:49.010
And I get it.
1955
01:32:49.050 --> 01:32:51.790
Like, I understand why I see why they go into that.
1956
01:32:51.850 --> 01:32:54.970
They're like, they're trying to be reasonable and they're trying to say, I get
1957
01:32:54.970 --> 01:32:57.150
it's hard, you know, all of that, that kind of thing.
1958
01:32:57.570 --> 01:33:03.110
The reality is that if we all end up in ETF land, eventually, probably beyond
1959
01:33:03.110 --> 01:33:07.290
our lifetimes, the government's going to introduce another currency based on
1960
01:33:07.290 --> 01:33:10.930
Bitcoin, and eventually they're going to depig it from Bitcoin and we will end
1961
01:33:10.930 --> 01:33:12.390
up back in the same place.
1962
01:33:12.870 --> 01:33:16.650
And we're trying to engineer a change that you cannot reverse here.
1963
01:33:16.830 --> 01:33:18.430
So self custody is important.
1964
01:33:19.190 --> 01:33:24.350
So, you know, I have sympathy for those who are agonizing over the technical
1965
01:33:24.350 --> 01:33:30.370
need for it, but I would like to see more of that effort going into the
1966
01:33:30.370 --> 01:33:36.150
social layer, because, as I say, the evidence on chain is that we don't have
1967
01:33:36.150 --> 01:33:37.170
the need for it.
1968
01:33:37.990 --> 01:33:44.130
And barring something unlikely and dramatic like James is putting forward, I
1969
01:33:44.130 --> 01:33:47.630
don't see, you know, where that need is coming from.
1970
01:33:47.830 --> 01:33:50.690
So, yeah, so that's kind of where I stand on it.
1971
01:33:50.690 --> 01:33:54.710
And to put my bias for whenever it comes to upgrade conversations around
1972
01:33:54.710 --> 01:33:59.710
Bitcoin, I personally am more motivated aligned on like, how do I make better
1973
01:33:59.710 --> 01:34:01.550
vaulting layer one security?
1974
01:34:01.870 --> 01:34:03.410
Like that's where my bias is.
1975
01:34:03.470 --> 01:34:05.450
My bias is not increasing throughput of transactions.
1976
01:34:05.910 --> 01:34:10.370
As someone who secures, you know, Bitcoin has secured Bitcoin for well over a
1977
01:34:10.370 --> 01:34:16.090
decade personally holding my own keys, has helped people secure keys, building
1978
01:34:16.090 --> 01:34:18.850
a business around the health and management of those Bitcoin.
1979
01:34:19.350 --> 01:34:23.030
For me, I would love to have something that would be like an order of magnitude
1980
01:34:23.030 --> 01:34:24.030
increase in security.
1981
01:34:24.290 --> 01:34:26.750
And it's just a couple extra bytes on chain, like an op vault, like
1982
01:34:26.750 --> 01:34:30.070
construction to me like that's, that's where I go.
1983
01:34:30.190 --> 01:34:33.110
And it's funny because it's not scaling Bitcoin in a transaction throughput
1984
01:34:33.110 --> 01:34:37.650
sense, but it's scaling Bitcoin and like, decreasing the asymmetry between
1985
01:34:37.650 --> 01:34:40.430
enterprise custody and someone in their basement being a grub brain.
1986
01:34:40.790 --> 01:34:42.410
Like, I want to be able to collapse that.
1987
01:34:42.890 --> 01:34:46.370
And that I do is scaling because it's not scaling through transactions, but the
1988
01:34:46.370 --> 01:34:51.930
ability to unilaterally custody large amounts of Bitcoin and have high levels
1989
01:34:51.930 --> 01:34:54.030
of certainty and security and how it's going to be managed.
1990
01:34:54.170 --> 01:34:57.290
I think it's a, it's almost flipping the scaling question on its head.
1991
01:34:57.410 --> 01:34:59.110
It's not through a transactions per second.
1992
01:34:59.290 --> 01:35:03.870
It's on a, how do you let literally someone anywhere in the world have like the
1993
01:35:03.870 --> 01:35:07.710
digital Fort Knox equivalent that is better than what anyone today can do in
1994
01:35:07.710 --> 01:35:08.350
Bitcoin, right?
1995
01:35:08.370 --> 01:35:09.910
And I think that's a really compelling place.
1996
01:35:10.050 --> 01:35:10.870
That's my own bias.
1997
01:35:11.150 --> 01:35:12.050
That's where my bias goes.
1998
01:35:12.090 --> 01:35:13.390
I'm a layer one grub brain guy.
1999
01:35:13.390 --> 01:35:17.470
Like, I have nothing against people that want to do other things for lightning
2000
01:35:17.470 --> 01:35:20.710
or any other kind of spending construction or any sort of like higher layer
2001
01:35:20.710 --> 01:35:23.370
thing, but I just want the simple coin safe on chain.
2002
01:35:24.110 --> 01:35:26.770
I have controversial opinions on this topic.
2003
01:35:27.550 --> 01:35:28.670
I fully agree with you, Rob.
2004
01:35:28.730 --> 01:35:30.590
I'm like, I am an upvote maxi here.
2005
01:35:30.750 --> 01:35:34.290
I want that to happen because I think that that's going to make a lot more
2006
01:35:34.290 --> 01:35:37.870
people self custody and it's going to help people self custody in a way that's,
2007
01:35:38.610 --> 01:35:41.150
it's like a thousand X better, right?
2008
01:35:41.730 --> 01:35:47.550
But now I don't believe like, I don't believe the promise of Bitcoin is the
2009
01:35:47.550 --> 01:35:52.770
stupid Andreas talk about democratizing finance and all that stupidity because
2010
01:35:52.770 --> 01:35:57.290
Bitcoin doesn't scale for world, for like for 8 billion people, period.
2011
01:35:57.450 --> 01:35:57.970
It doesn't.
2012
01:35:58.350 --> 01:35:59.510
Not in its current form.
2013
01:35:59.770 --> 01:36:05.070
What Bitcoin offers and always did was replacement of central banks, right?
2014
01:36:05.090 --> 01:36:06.910
Like an alternative to central banks.
2015
01:36:07.470 --> 01:36:11.470
So with that promise, we are there.
2016
01:36:11.710 --> 01:36:15.250
We just need that to sort of happen, right?
2017
01:36:15.330 --> 01:36:17.010
Like it's starting to happen.
2018
01:36:17.470 --> 01:36:20.570
You already can't protect yourself against central bank debasement with
2019
01:36:20.570 --> 01:36:21.470
Bitcoin, right?
2020
01:36:21.690 --> 01:36:25.790
That be your Bitcoin or the Bitcoin that is not yours that maybe you get it
2021
01:36:25.790 --> 01:36:26.030
back.
2022
01:36:26.770 --> 01:36:32.690
Now, when it comes to like this idea of democratizing finance and like that
2023
01:36:32.690 --> 01:36:36.370
happens, that's going to happen to the 8 billion people through third parties,
2024
01:36:36.710 --> 01:36:36.890
right?
2025
01:36:36.890 --> 01:36:39.550
So we're going to have essentially free banking, right?
2026
01:36:39.790 --> 01:36:44.710
That be on Cashew or on whatever, because there is just not enough UTXOs for
2027
01:36:44.710 --> 01:36:45.810
everybody, right?
2028
01:36:45.830 --> 01:36:52.250
We have two quadrillion UTXOs, but reality is, you know, 90% of it is going
2029
01:36:52.250 --> 01:36:55.470
to be owned by, you know, a basis point of the world's population.
2030
01:36:55.690 --> 01:36:59.030
And that's already a hundred times better than the current system we have now.
2031
01:37:00.050 --> 01:37:03.450
But we all enjoy the fact that you can't debase the actual regional money,
2032
01:37:03.750 --> 01:37:03.910
right?
2033
01:37:03.910 --> 01:37:08.190
Like it's a monumental improvement to humanity already.
2034
01:37:08.870 --> 01:37:11.550
Now, we're not going to fix human disparity.
2035
01:37:11.770 --> 01:37:13.670
We're not going to fix any of that shit because people are not equal.
2036
01:37:14.170 --> 01:37:17.430
All we're going to do is it's like Bitcoin is available to anyone, not to
2037
01:37:17.430 --> 01:37:18.490
everyone, right?
2038
01:37:18.550 --> 01:37:23.130
Like Bitcoin is actually horrible for poor people because like it's expensive
2039
01:37:23.130 --> 01:37:23.590
to send.
2040
01:37:23.690 --> 01:37:24.850
It's too slow, right?
2041
01:37:24.870 --> 01:37:26.230
Like it's hard to self-custody.
2042
01:37:26.830 --> 01:37:27.990
They don't have enough money to buy.
2043
01:37:28.030 --> 01:37:29.370
They don't have savings, right?
2044
01:37:29.390 --> 01:37:31.230
Like people who don't have money don't have savings.
2045
01:37:31.390 --> 01:37:32.570
So like they can't really save.
2046
01:37:33.170 --> 01:37:37.250
What we do is we offer a much better playing field because they're going to
2047
01:37:37.250 --> 01:37:42.150
have access to financial products that are based on real money, right?
2048
01:37:42.250 --> 01:37:44.250
Like they're not going to be debased by inflation.
2049
01:37:44.810 --> 01:37:46.210
That's huge, right?
2050
01:37:46.370 --> 01:37:50.370
They can access financial services without permission as well, right?
2051
01:37:50.410 --> 01:37:53.070
Because we're going to have all these Layer 2s available to them in a country
2052
01:37:53.070 --> 01:37:55.050
that the economy doesn't let them have it, right?
2053
01:37:55.570 --> 01:38:00.950
There is this huge sort of murky, nuanced, nasty universe that Bitcoin sort of
2054
01:38:00.950 --> 01:38:01.490
enables.
2055
01:38:02.570 --> 01:38:07.590
That it's not necessarily, you know, each person with some UTXOs, you know,
2056
01:38:07.650 --> 01:38:08.830
those UTXOs will be too expensive.
2057
01:38:09.770 --> 01:38:14.650
And I actually like I've always believed that we would not have high fees on
2058
01:38:14.650 --> 01:38:21.390
Bitcoin because, you know, even as we scale the money velocity on the base
2059
01:38:21.390 --> 01:38:24.270
money is always low, right?
2060
01:38:24.310 --> 01:38:27.550
Like people are not going to be transacting a lot on that, right?
2061
01:38:27.670 --> 01:38:31.350
So, you know, and it's going to make sense that like essentially like when you
2062
01:38:31.350 --> 01:38:34.350
make a transaction on Bitcoin, it's going to be equivalent to like a large wire
2063
01:38:34.350 --> 01:38:35.270
transfer, right?
2064
01:38:35.330 --> 01:38:38.450
Like maybe you're a very rich person, but more likely you're an entity clearing
2065
01:38:38.450 --> 01:38:39.350
out between two entities.
2066
01:38:40.270 --> 01:38:43.310
That's the reality of a 21 million base money.
2067
01:38:45.930 --> 01:38:47.730
You can't escape that math.
2068
01:38:47.990 --> 01:38:49.430
Like there is no place to go.
2069
01:38:50.130 --> 01:38:52.370
And Layer 2, they're fully bound by that math.
2070
01:38:53.210 --> 01:38:56.850
Like Layer 3s now, on the other hand, are free from that math.
2071
01:38:57.070 --> 01:39:01.050
They're just, you know, they just have to offer like they have to use the legal
2072
01:39:01.050 --> 01:39:06.810
system or some other system that tries to enforce their pegging back to that
2073
01:39:06.810 --> 01:39:07.630
Layer 1 money.
2074
01:39:08.990 --> 01:39:13.010
And I think that's a super uncomfortable truth to a lot of people because, you
2075
01:39:13.010 --> 01:39:17.370
know, they bought the stupid story about how Bitcoin, you know, like resolves,
2076
01:39:17.590 --> 01:39:19.570
you know, democratizing money and this and that.
2077
01:39:19.690 --> 01:39:20.450
And it's not true.
2078
01:39:21.630 --> 01:39:24.910
It's simply not the real proposition of Bitcoin.
2079
01:39:26.510 --> 01:39:30.270
And yeah, I just think that we have to do our best to make this middle
2080
01:39:30.270 --> 01:39:33.650
as good as possible to the people of the world.
2081
01:39:33.750 --> 01:39:33.850
Right.
2082
01:39:33.890 --> 01:39:38.810
Like we give them good self-custody solutions, good Layer 3s, you know, we, you
2083
01:39:38.810 --> 01:39:43.310
know, through, you know, amazing Approot contracts and maybe OpVault, you can
2084
01:39:43.310 --> 01:39:44.110
create better banks.
2085
01:39:44.890 --> 01:39:45.290
Right.
2086
01:39:45.350 --> 01:39:47.170
Like through OpVault, you can create better banks.
2087
01:39:47.530 --> 01:39:48.070
Community banks.
2088
01:39:48.490 --> 01:39:48.650
Yeah.
2089
01:39:48.710 --> 01:39:51.430
And those cashew banks, maybe they are decentralized.
2090
01:39:52.570 --> 01:39:53.010
Right.
2091
01:39:53.030 --> 01:39:57.030
Like we carry the state of the bank and some fucking convoluted shit that
2092
01:39:57.030 --> 01:40:00.330
exists on chain and it's better.
2093
01:40:00.590 --> 01:40:06.490
And it's a thousand better than people using their French printed African
2094
01:40:06.490 --> 01:40:06.850
money.
2095
01:40:07.770 --> 01:40:11.630
I hate the black and white thinking that comes with like this whole
2096
01:40:11.630 --> 01:40:12.350
democratizing.
2097
01:40:12.510 --> 01:40:13.950
Bitcoin is not a fucking democracy.
2098
01:40:14.390 --> 01:40:19.290
Like, you know, and we're not going to find the scaling on Bitcoin Layer 1 and
2099
01:40:19.290 --> 01:40:21.670
live with that or rage quit.
2100
01:40:22.290 --> 01:40:24.110
People tend to often rage quit.
2101
01:40:25.390 --> 01:40:26.190
Rant over.
2102
01:40:26.190 --> 01:40:28.730
I think I agree with you both.
2103
01:40:28.890 --> 01:40:34.830
I think we absolutely should try and get better self-custody so that we get
2104
01:40:34.830 --> 01:40:39.190
more people to self-custody because they just feel that it's easier and they
2105
01:40:39.190 --> 01:40:42.250
don't feel at risk that they're going to lose everything because they make one
2106
01:40:42.250 --> 01:40:44.630
mistake, which is what OpVault does.
2107
01:40:44.770 --> 01:40:44.930
Right.
2108
01:40:44.970 --> 01:40:46.650
It allows you to make mistakes.
2109
01:40:46.950 --> 01:40:47.250
Yes.
2110
01:40:47.390 --> 01:40:53.710
And I also agree that, you know, it just simply on a practical computational
2111
01:40:53.710 --> 01:40:57.210
level does not scale to everyone in this world.
2112
01:40:57.350 --> 01:41:00.630
And that's not its intent on Layer 1.
2113
01:41:00.830 --> 01:41:03.370
So, yeah, I think that those are both good.
2114
01:41:03.430 --> 01:41:04.610
It was the point of the block size war.
2115
01:41:05.210 --> 01:41:06.730
We explicitly made that decision.
2116
01:41:07.070 --> 01:41:08.090
Not everyone gets a UTXO.
2117
01:41:08.850 --> 01:41:12.250
No, but even with the block, like even if we had a terabyte block.
2118
01:41:12.450 --> 01:41:13.110
Gigameg blocks.
2119
01:41:13.310 --> 01:41:17.250
There's still only, you know, 21 quadrillion Satoshis.
2120
01:41:18.410 --> 01:41:18.550
Right.
2121
01:41:18.890 --> 01:41:22.350
Like you still haven't changed the base unit, right?
2122
01:41:22.350 --> 01:41:27.290
It still doesn't solve the division because, again, people keep on doing 21
2123
01:41:27.290 --> 01:41:29.350
quadrillion divided by a billion.
2124
01:41:29.770 --> 01:41:30.390
Sounds great.
2125
01:41:31.030 --> 01:41:33.210
But that's not the world we live in.
2126
01:41:33.270 --> 01:41:35.830
And it will never be because people are not equal.
2127
01:41:36.570 --> 01:41:40.210
Like you're going to have the majority of this still available to the few who
2128
01:41:40.210 --> 01:41:44.070
produce the most or like, you know, unfairly got it, whatever the fuck that's,
2129
01:41:44.130 --> 01:41:45.670
you know, that's humanity.
2130
01:41:45.930 --> 01:41:46.050
Right.
2131
01:41:46.090 --> 01:41:47.310
Like you can't fix that.
2132
01:41:48.230 --> 01:41:50.710
What we can do is create a system that is fair.
2133
01:41:50.710 --> 01:41:55.750
Fair in terms of like you can't rug the monetary policy.
2134
01:41:57.210 --> 01:41:59.470
That's the Bitcoin is monetary policy.
2135
01:41:59.810 --> 01:42:00.870
It's the difficulty adjustment.
2136
01:42:01.310 --> 01:42:01.590
That's it.
2137
01:42:01.770 --> 01:42:04.450
Like everything else is just, you know.
2138
01:42:07.070 --> 01:42:10.970
And it's a discussion that's very frustrating because it's like it comes back,
2139
01:42:11.610 --> 01:42:14.590
you know, when the price pumps, it comes back with the price middles.
2140
01:42:14.770 --> 01:42:17.810
It comes back when the when the fees are high, it comes back when the fees
2141
01:42:17.810 --> 01:42:18.150
are low.
2142
01:42:19.610 --> 01:42:22.650
It's a it's a truly eternal September kind of conversation.
2143
01:42:22.870 --> 01:42:22.990
Right.
2144
01:42:23.170 --> 01:42:23.410
Yeah.
2145
01:42:23.510 --> 01:42:27.050
And I think it's going to keep on happening for at least another like two
2146
01:42:27.050 --> 01:42:29.530
cycles of user based growth in Bitcoin.
2147
01:42:29.910 --> 01:42:34.410
Like we need a critical mass that understands that basic principle.
2148
01:42:35.170 --> 01:42:38.690
It's also a lot of the Bitcoin price adoption increases, not layer one users.
2149
01:42:39.310 --> 01:42:39.410
Right.
2150
01:42:39.530 --> 01:42:41.690
Bitcoin scaling is increasing in value.
2151
01:42:41.710 --> 01:42:43.670
But if you're holding the ETF, you don't have UTXO.
2152
01:42:43.730 --> 01:42:46.210
You're not on chain causing all of the speed traffic to begin with.
2153
01:42:46.210 --> 01:42:47.850
That does a bifurcation in scaling.
2154
01:42:48.090 --> 01:42:51.570
It's the monetary network and the value of the asset versus the actual
2155
01:42:51.570 --> 01:42:52.970
throughput going through the pipes.
2156
01:42:53.690 --> 01:42:56.710
So as a business, we've always sort of had this mentality, right?
2157
01:42:56.770 --> 01:43:00.670
That like, you know, we are not the first thing that people touch when they get
2158
01:43:00.670 --> 01:43:00.870
Bitcoin.
2159
01:43:01.670 --> 01:43:06.390
We've always internalized this like we're never going to be like Visa.
2160
01:43:06.590 --> 01:43:07.350
Unless it's an open dime.
2161
01:43:07.750 --> 01:43:08.070
Whatever.
2162
01:43:09.690 --> 01:43:10.670
Talk about nerdy.
2163
01:43:10.670 --> 01:43:16.390
And in this bull market, we truly, truly saw this be true.
2164
01:43:17.230 --> 01:43:21.750
You know, retail used to come in and like, you know, screw themselves with
2165
01:43:21.750 --> 01:43:22.170
Coinbase.
2166
01:43:22.950 --> 01:43:23.530
Right.
2167
01:43:23.590 --> 01:43:26.830
And then they come to us after that.
2168
01:43:27.870 --> 01:43:32.490
In this bull market, like the majority retail went straight to MicroStrategy
2169
01:43:32.490 --> 01:43:33.650
and ETFs.
2170
01:43:33.870 --> 01:43:34.270
Right.
2171
01:43:34.310 --> 01:43:35.990
And we didn't see the fees increase.
2172
01:43:37.690 --> 01:43:38.270
Right.
2173
01:43:38.270 --> 01:43:42.670
You know, we see our sales growth because like the people who now appreciated
2174
01:43:42.670 --> 01:43:48.150
their money inside ETFs or Coinbase, you know, traded, you know, they traded
2175
01:43:48.150 --> 01:43:52.090
out from ETFs a lot of times, at least partially because now they understand
2176
01:43:52.090 --> 01:43:53.890
Bitcoins because they were from the last time around.
2177
01:43:54.090 --> 01:43:54.190
Right.
2178
01:43:54.510 --> 01:43:57.790
And then they tried to self-custody part of it or they bought a new allocation
2179
01:43:57.790 --> 01:44:02.170
and then they come to us and the people who were on Coinbase appreciated what
2180
01:44:02.170 --> 01:44:02.730
they had there.
2181
01:44:02.810 --> 01:44:06.450
Now they are getting out because eventually you need to sit on Coinbase for a
2182
01:44:06.450 --> 01:44:07.230
year to understand.
2183
01:44:07.770 --> 01:44:08.730
That's what happens to most.
2184
01:44:08.870 --> 01:44:09.730
So they see a story.
2185
01:44:10.170 --> 01:44:14.130
When they see a story of somebody that got fucked, that's when they get out.
2186
01:44:14.910 --> 01:44:18.490
And like, but this time, the velocity is decreasing.
2187
01:44:18.950 --> 01:44:20.250
It's like the pie is bigger.
2188
01:44:20.670 --> 01:44:21.030
Right.
2189
01:44:21.050 --> 01:44:24.850
But the velocity of the transition is decreasing because, you know, it's just
2190
01:44:24.850 --> 01:44:28.670
more people and more people are going to get stuck in those systems.
2191
01:44:29.350 --> 01:44:30.210
And it makes sense.
2192
01:44:30.290 --> 01:44:34.470
I mean, like, you know, like if you buy a seller's story, like, you know, and
2193
01:44:34.470 --> 01:44:37.570
like all the props to him, like, you know, it's a good story.
2194
01:44:37.810 --> 01:44:37.910
Right.
2195
01:44:37.930 --> 01:44:39.250
Like that's his promise.
2196
01:44:39.450 --> 01:44:42.310
You know, if he's going to break the promise or not, that's just beyond me.
2197
01:44:42.610 --> 01:44:42.770
Right.
2198
01:44:42.970 --> 01:44:46.510
But it's his company and his story is like, listen, I'm going to buy a fucking
2199
01:44:46.510 --> 01:44:47.170
bunch of Bitcoin.
2200
01:44:47.270 --> 01:44:49.290
I'm going to fucking go to Valhalla with it.
2201
01:44:49.670 --> 01:44:52.290
Like it's an amazing story.
2202
01:44:52.990 --> 01:44:56.510
Like the guy managed to fucking acquire two percent of the Bitcoin supply.
2203
01:44:56.850 --> 01:44:57.210
Right.
2204
01:44:57.230 --> 01:44:59.370
And he's going to keep on fucking going as long as he can.
2205
01:44:59.510 --> 01:44:59.630
Right.
2206
01:44:59.650 --> 01:45:04.790
Like and if you buy that story and you're not into self-custody and not into
2207
01:45:04.790 --> 01:45:07.470
being your own bank, which is 99 percent society.
2208
01:45:07.710 --> 01:45:07.810
Right.
2209
01:45:07.810 --> 01:45:10.690
Like, you know, maybe you buy some of that.
2210
01:45:10.870 --> 01:45:12.010
Like, there's nothing wrong with that.
2211
01:45:13.270 --> 01:45:16.250
Like, I don't feel it's, you know, like you're buying the Bitcoin promise
2212
01:45:16.250 --> 01:45:18.750
through a different path without the self-custody part.
2213
01:45:19.010 --> 01:45:22.390
You know, like it's, you know, most people don't want to have a shotgun.
2214
01:45:23.010 --> 01:45:23.250
Right.
2215
01:45:23.710 --> 01:45:24.750
And I'm OK with that.
2216
01:45:24.790 --> 01:45:25.750
Is it great for Bitcoin?
2217
01:45:25.830 --> 01:45:26.090
No.
2218
01:45:26.790 --> 01:45:27.070
Right.
2219
01:45:27.170 --> 01:45:29.770
But but it's going to happen and it's going to happen more.
2220
01:45:29.870 --> 01:45:32.450
It's like it was baked into the protocol that was going to happen.
2221
01:45:32.450 --> 01:45:36.450
That's why we had a fast distribution of the supply.
2222
01:45:36.970 --> 01:45:37.070
Right.
2223
01:45:37.070 --> 01:45:41.730
When he came along, you know, there was only like a few percent of Bitcoin left
2224
01:45:41.730 --> 01:45:44.430
to be released from mining.
2225
01:45:44.610 --> 01:45:44.750
Right.
2226
01:45:45.110 --> 01:45:48.050
The majority of it you have to buy and you have to buy market price.
2227
01:45:48.910 --> 01:45:53.610
So people should actually be into the Bitcoin price going up faster through his
2228
01:45:53.610 --> 01:45:56.450
purchases because, you know, retail doesn't affect the price anymore.
2229
01:45:57.070 --> 01:45:58.970
And because then he pays more for it.
2230
01:45:58.990 --> 01:45:59.830
He gets less.
2231
01:46:00.530 --> 01:46:00.890
Yeah.
2232
01:46:01.390 --> 01:46:03.770
Was it by the time he got in, there was maybe five percent of the remaining
2233
01:46:03.770 --> 01:46:04.710
supply to buy.
2234
01:46:04.770 --> 01:46:04.970
Yeah.
2235
01:46:05.190 --> 01:46:06.410
And now there's less than one percent.
2236
01:46:06.810 --> 01:46:10.350
But yeah, that that the window he's been in Bitcoin is like five percent of the
2237
01:46:10.350 --> 01:46:13.710
supply when 50 percent was between 2019 and 2013.
2238
01:46:13.990 --> 01:46:16.090
You know, if you don't want other people to have it, don't sell it.
2239
01:46:16.970 --> 01:46:17.310
Yeah, yeah.
2240
01:46:17.750 --> 01:46:18.910
Just don't sell it.
2241
01:46:19.010 --> 01:46:20.870
You know, you don't want other people to have it.
2242
01:46:21.630 --> 01:46:22.910
Like, you know, it sucks.
2243
01:46:23.050 --> 01:46:24.730
Maybe you can't buy the car you always wanted.
2244
01:46:24.830 --> 01:46:26.650
But, you know, that's the proposition, right?
2245
01:46:27.150 --> 01:46:27.350
Yeah.
2246
01:46:28.970 --> 01:46:31.190
Anyways, it is a fascinating thing to watch.
2247
01:46:31.410 --> 01:46:32.230
I love this timeline.
2248
01:46:33.190 --> 01:46:34.390
You know, like nothing is perfect.
2249
01:46:34.530 --> 01:46:35.510
Everything has tradeoffs.
2250
01:46:35.710 --> 01:46:37.130
And it is amazing, man.
2251
01:46:37.330 --> 01:46:42.150
Like to watch this shit go from like, you know, like, you know, a few cents,
2252
01:46:42.530 --> 01:46:46.250
like total, like experiment, you know, Moon was supposed to be a thousand
2253
01:46:46.250 --> 01:46:46.630
bucks.
2254
01:46:47.170 --> 01:46:48.650
That was the meme for the Moon.
2255
01:46:49.530 --> 01:46:52.470
This time around, I didn't even hear people talking about the Moon anymore.
2256
01:46:53.330 --> 01:46:54.130
There were no memes.
2257
01:46:55.610 --> 01:46:57.050
It's the first bull run without memes.
2258
01:46:58.030 --> 01:47:00.770
And, you know, like the network is strong, it's working.
2259
01:47:01.990 --> 01:47:05.790
You know, it's car shipping, maybe not shipping what you want, but they're
2260
01:47:05.790 --> 01:47:06.090
shipping.
2261
01:47:07.690 --> 01:47:09.010
You know, there's more miners.
2262
01:47:10.150 --> 01:47:12.410
Countries are mining now and hate each other.
2263
01:47:12.510 --> 01:47:12.930
It's perfect.
2264
01:47:13.070 --> 01:47:14.550
Let them hate even further each other.
2265
01:47:15.510 --> 01:47:17.410
You know, we just don't want countries to buy it, but they're going to buy it
2266
01:47:17.410 --> 01:47:17.770
anyways.
2267
01:47:18.150 --> 01:47:22.450
Like, it's everything we talked about fucking 15 years ago.
2268
01:47:22.590 --> 01:47:23.070
It's happening.
2269
01:47:23.490 --> 01:47:24.710
Like, as described.
2270
01:47:25.490 --> 01:47:26.230
Like, it's amazing.
2271
01:47:26.410 --> 01:47:27.070
Yeah, I know.
2272
01:47:27.350 --> 01:47:31.590
I obviously hang out with a lot of Bitcoiners like you guys.
2273
01:47:31.930 --> 01:47:38.870
And I was having a chat about how people don't, particularly Bitcoiners, and I
2274
01:47:38.870 --> 01:47:43.330
think the idea came out in this chat is like, they're almost like abused
2275
01:47:43.330 --> 01:47:49.470
children in that they've been disappointed so many times that people have, they
2276
01:47:49.470 --> 01:47:54.150
can't seem to actually appreciate that the things that they always thought
2277
01:47:54.150 --> 01:47:56.190
would happen are actually happening.
2278
01:47:56.190 --> 01:48:00.730
And when they look at the news, they're like, yeah, but you know, yeah, but
2279
01:48:00.730 --> 01:48:04.370
there's always this kind of like, I'll believe it when I see it.
2280
01:48:04.490 --> 01:48:05.970
And I'm like, but you are seeing it.
2281
01:48:06.070 --> 01:48:07.110
You know, it's actually happening.
2282
01:48:07.210 --> 01:48:09.950
It's happening in only 15 years.
2283
01:48:10.710 --> 01:48:14.970
Like, dude, you need like, Rome took how long to fucking collapse, right?
2284
01:48:15.010 --> 01:48:17.350
Like, it's like we talk about thousands of years shit here.
2285
01:48:17.470 --> 01:48:23.830
Like, but it's happening like, you know, like a software company timeline.
2286
01:48:24.590 --> 01:48:25.010
Yeah.
2287
01:48:25.310 --> 01:48:29.370
And the interesting thing about it is, is that if you're a Bitcoiner, and
2288
01:48:29.370 --> 01:48:32.870
you're running, for example, a Bitcoin company, and you're sitting there
2289
01:48:32.870 --> 01:48:37.290
thinking, yeah, it's it don't believe the news, you know, it's, it's still,
2290
01:48:37.530 --> 01:48:40.030
I'll believe it when I see it, you're actually making a mistake, right?
2291
01:48:40.070 --> 01:48:43.590
Because you should be doubling down, perhaps, at a time when you're holding
2292
01:48:43.590 --> 01:48:43.990
back.
2293
01:48:44.110 --> 01:48:46.710
So you have to look honestly at things.
2294
01:48:46.710 --> 01:48:51.850
And I think in the past, it was good to look quite pessimistically and saying,
2295
01:48:51.950 --> 01:48:53.590
you know, this thing isn't there yet.
2296
01:48:53.930 --> 01:48:58.370
But now if you look at the news, it's really hard to interpret all of this
2297
01:48:58.370 --> 01:49:03.670
news as something other than the world is moving towards this new technology in
2298
01:49:03.670 --> 01:49:04.250
a big way.
2299
01:49:04.430 --> 01:49:05.850
It's really hard for me.
2300
01:49:06.010 --> 01:49:10.210
So I tried very hard to avoid recency bias and try to say, listen, this, these
2301
01:49:10.210 --> 01:49:11.010
are the facts today.
2302
01:49:11.210 --> 01:49:15.690
If I was coming into this without any of my previous disappointments, and the
2303
01:49:15.690 --> 01:49:19.690
long years of waiting for Bitcoin to succeed, how would I react?
2304
01:49:19.730 --> 01:49:21.110
And how would I think about this news?
2305
01:49:21.110 --> 01:49:22.790
And I think I would be pretty bullish.
2306
01:49:22.950 --> 01:49:27.250
I think I would be like, yes, it looks practically like the world is going to
2307
01:49:27.250 --> 01:49:27.870
use this thing.
2308
01:49:27.990 --> 01:49:32.790
So that's my kind of idea here is that people are just being a little bit
2309
01:49:32.790 --> 01:49:35.550
reluctant to recognize what's actually going on.
2310
01:49:36.030 --> 01:49:38.170
The Overton window is fully shifting over to Bitcoin.
2311
01:49:38.490 --> 01:49:39.810
I got into Bitcoin in 2013.
2312
01:49:40.110 --> 01:49:43.170
And if you're telling me 10 to years later that you're going to have world
2313
01:49:43.170 --> 01:49:45.510
governments adopting and adding to their reserves, I would have thought you
2314
01:49:45.510 --> 01:49:45.930
were crazy.
2315
01:49:46.450 --> 01:49:48.870
I would have thought that was in 10 years, I would have said you're absolutely
2316
01:49:48.870 --> 01:49:49.330
insane.
2317
01:49:49.330 --> 01:49:50.490
That is not going to happen.
2318
01:49:50.870 --> 01:49:54.730
Like the moon back then was, you know, the thousand dollar I remember, like,
2319
01:49:54.850 --> 01:49:56.050
you know, because I got it, it was like $200.
2320
01:49:56.290 --> 01:49:56.410
Right.
2321
01:49:56.450 --> 01:50:00.650
So this is the things that like the obscene reaches like one day, maybe $10
2322
01:50:00.650 --> 01:50:01.010
,000.
2323
01:50:01.390 --> 01:50:03.950
And now we're moving $10,000 in a single day.
2324
01:50:04.130 --> 01:50:04.450
Right.
2325
01:50:04.470 --> 01:50:07.910
And I think that these are luxury things because we're so focused on the day by
2326
01:50:07.910 --> 01:50:11.150
day playing of everything that happens in this industry that you get, you lose
2327
01:50:11.150 --> 01:50:12.610
the forest for the trees.
2328
01:50:12.650 --> 01:50:14.830
Like there's a, there's so much happening.
2329
01:50:14.930 --> 01:50:16.970
I don't know how you could be bearish in that sense.
2330
01:50:16.970 --> 01:50:21.990
You know, I created this name for myself quite some time ago, Deterministic
2331
01:50:21.990 --> 01:50:22.630
Optimism.
2332
01:50:23.270 --> 01:50:29.390
Because like as the years started to pass, like every single thing that we
2333
01:50:29.390 --> 01:50:32.990
thought was going to happen, the way it was going to happen, it's happening as
2334
01:50:32.990 --> 01:50:34.050
prescribed in software.
2335
01:50:35.390 --> 01:50:35.490
Right.
2336
01:50:35.530 --> 01:50:37.070
Like it's insane.
2337
01:50:37.870 --> 01:50:39.690
Like it's absolutely insane.
2338
01:50:39.790 --> 01:50:42.790
And it is like, so I kind of, it's like a semi joke, but kind of
2339
01:50:42.790 --> 01:50:43.710
like, look, it's happening.
2340
01:50:43.930 --> 01:50:44.050
Right.
2341
01:50:44.610 --> 01:50:49.550
It's like, it's like, I don't believe in, you know, in like out of this world
2342
01:50:49.550 --> 01:50:54.110
things, but like at the same time is like, holy shit, you know, like, and it's
2343
01:50:54.110 --> 01:50:58.890
fascinating to watch like happening as prescribed, like in every single sense
2344
01:50:58.890 --> 01:51:00.890
with its problems too.
2345
01:51:01.190 --> 01:51:05.250
Like you go look at Fini's old text, it's like, you know, like it's insane.
2346
01:51:05.470 --> 01:51:05.570
Right.
2347
01:51:05.630 --> 01:51:10.590
It's premonition, not saying it is, but like, you know, it's just because it's
2348
01:51:10.590 --> 01:51:17.210
happening so fast and like the software is so prescribed that like things are
2349
01:51:17.210 --> 01:51:22.010
like happening economically the way it was designed.
2350
01:51:22.690 --> 01:51:22.790
Right.
2351
01:51:22.850 --> 01:51:26.570
Like, and it's attracting the capital in the way we thought and it's happening
2352
01:51:26.570 --> 01:51:27.370
the way we thought.
2353
01:51:27.510 --> 01:51:28.950
And it always, it's just all happening.
2354
01:51:29.450 --> 01:51:33.710
I'm shifting to this new term I created like not too far ago.
2355
01:51:34.170 --> 01:51:37.930
It's like, cause I was trying to like, I'm very critical person, right.
2356
01:51:37.930 --> 01:51:40.870
Of the things we do internally, Bitcoin, whatever.
2357
01:51:41.150 --> 01:51:45.450
Like the criticism is important, but like a lot of people don't see criticism
2358
01:51:45.450 --> 01:51:46.610
as a good thing.
2359
01:51:47.070 --> 01:51:49.110
I don't know why it's like, it's a type of person.
2360
01:51:49.770 --> 01:51:53.430
Like when you're too critic, they think you're being pessimistic or like they
2361
01:51:53.430 --> 01:51:56.270
can't understand you're being constructive with the criticism.
2362
01:51:57.030 --> 01:52:04.070
It's a critically optimistic, you know, like it's like, we want to criticize,
2363
01:52:04.430 --> 01:52:05.210
but we're optimistic.
2364
01:52:05.210 --> 01:52:08.250
It's like, it's like you're, you're criticizing with a smile, you know, like
2365
01:52:08.250 --> 01:52:13.470
you're like, you're enjoying the win as you keep on building the rocket.
2366
01:52:13.670 --> 01:52:15.570
The criticism is building up, not taking down.
2367
01:52:15.970 --> 01:52:16.410
Exactly.
2368
01:52:16.590 --> 01:52:16.790
Right.
2369
01:52:16.950 --> 01:52:17.130
Yeah.
2370
01:52:17.930 --> 01:52:20.090
People will try and find all kinds of reasons.
2371
01:52:20.230 --> 01:52:23.730
Like I see one of the new reasons that, you know, we're not going to do
2372
01:52:23.730 --> 01:52:29.090
so well is that all of this tokenization is going to come back and, you know,
2373
01:52:29.110 --> 01:52:29.810
these other coins.
2374
01:52:29.890 --> 01:52:30.910
And yes, of course they are.
2375
01:52:30.910 --> 01:52:34.890
It's just like, you know, do you really think that money is like one and done
2376
01:52:34.890 --> 01:52:35.350
forever?
2377
01:52:35.490 --> 01:52:37.650
Like, no, of course money always competes.
2378
01:52:37.690 --> 01:52:42.130
There's always going to be someone around introducing a new form of money and
2379
01:52:42.130 --> 01:52:45.410
trying to knock whatever is on top off the block.
2380
01:52:45.530 --> 01:52:48.530
Do I think Bitcoin can succeed against that in our era?
2381
01:52:48.910 --> 01:52:49.270
I do.
2382
01:52:49.510 --> 01:52:50.350
I absolutely do.
2383
01:52:50.430 --> 01:52:51.150
I think it will win.
2384
01:52:51.510 --> 01:52:55.030
But to expect that no one's going to try is ludicrous.
2385
01:52:55.190 --> 01:52:55.890
It's retarded.
2386
01:52:56.070 --> 01:52:57.310
Of course they're going to try.
2387
01:52:57.890 --> 01:52:59.070
They're always going to try.
2388
01:52:59.070 --> 01:53:03.730
We will never be done with shit coins ever because that's the history of the
2389
01:53:03.730 --> 01:53:03.890
world.
2390
01:53:03.990 --> 01:53:07.330
If you look at the history of the world, there was always another money trying
2391
01:53:07.330 --> 01:53:07.890
to compete.
2392
01:53:08.350 --> 01:53:08.450
Always.
2393
01:53:08.910 --> 01:53:09.010
Yes.
2394
01:53:09.090 --> 01:53:13.530
So the idea that somehow we're just going to enter this utopia where there's
2395
01:53:13.530 --> 01:53:15.390
only Bitcoin, I think is crazy.
2396
01:53:15.550 --> 01:53:18.650
I just, I don't understand why people believe that.
2397
01:53:18.830 --> 01:53:22.390
And I also don't see it as a reason to be despondent.
2398
01:53:22.490 --> 01:53:26.570
The fact that, you know, the US administration is likely going to support a
2399
01:53:26.570 --> 01:53:28.010
whole bunch of that stuff.
2400
01:53:28.010 --> 01:53:31.970
Well, of course they are, because that's just the nature of the world and human
2401
01:53:31.970 --> 01:53:32.390
beings.
2402
01:53:32.550 --> 01:53:34.710
It's not a reason to be pessimistic.
2403
01:53:34.790 --> 01:53:36.250
It's just the practical reality.
2404
01:53:36.930 --> 01:53:41.650
That's the difference between the warrior mentality and the peasant mentality,
2405
01:53:42.230 --> 01:53:42.350
right?
2406
01:53:42.430 --> 01:53:44.770
Like, it's like, it's never over.
2407
01:53:45.010 --> 01:53:47.570
There's always going to be somebody else trying to invade your shit.
2408
01:53:48.010 --> 01:53:49.390
Like, it's like business, right?
2409
01:53:49.430 --> 01:53:51.430
Like, it's competition, right?
2410
01:53:51.470 --> 01:53:54.810
Like, and it doesn't mean it's mean or bad or evil or anything.
2411
01:53:54.810 --> 01:53:59.390
It's just, it's just, it's like nothing in nature sits still.
2412
01:54:00.050 --> 01:54:00.330
Nothing.
2413
01:54:01.270 --> 01:54:05.230
Even fucking rocks erode and some fucking other rock goes on top of it.
2414
01:54:05.330 --> 01:54:07.630
Like, it just, nothing is still.
2415
01:54:07.730 --> 01:54:09.850
So like, we're going to keep on competing forever, right?
2416
01:54:09.890 --> 01:54:13.250
And it's very possible that a few thousand years from now, you know, say
2417
01:54:13.250 --> 01:54:15.970
Bitcoin gets there and something else comes up and it replaces it too.
2418
01:54:16.290 --> 01:54:18.090
And maybe it doesn't replace it and it's not good.
2419
01:54:18.630 --> 01:54:20.850
Maybe it goes, it reverses to something else too.
2420
01:54:20.970 --> 01:54:24.030
Like, you know, enjoy the fact that you might be able to fucking see the world
2421
01:54:24.030 --> 01:54:25.390
change and your fucking lifetime.
2422
01:54:25.510 --> 01:54:26.110
Jesus Christ.
2423
01:54:26.250 --> 01:54:29.330
You know, like go fucking like, smell some fucking roses, you know?
2424
01:54:30.350 --> 01:54:32.130
Also the validation in the narrative is over.
2425
01:54:32.310 --> 01:54:37.090
So 2017, like 2020, like these were like, it was entering the mainstream and
2426
01:54:37.090 --> 01:54:39.950
people were kind of discerning and understanding like, well, is Bitcoin
2427
01:54:39.950 --> 01:54:41.170
blockbuster?
2428
01:54:41.510 --> 01:54:44.230
And all of these other things are going to be Netflix and like, there'll be
2429
01:54:44.230 --> 01:54:44.730
something cool.
2430
01:54:44.830 --> 01:54:47.970
Like, we've now had two full cycles of that being the mainstream narrative.
2431
01:54:48.330 --> 01:54:48.810
It's over.
2432
01:54:48.810 --> 01:54:53.270
The U.S. Government, like international governments, like MicroStrategy, like,
2433
01:54:53.690 --> 01:54:56.450
like the narrative is done.
2434
01:54:56.570 --> 01:54:57.770
Everyone knows Bitcoin is king.
2435
01:54:58.310 --> 01:55:01.250
And now everyone knows that there will always be these shell games trying to
2436
01:55:01.250 --> 01:55:02.490
get your Bitcoin for something else.
2437
01:55:02.550 --> 01:55:04.770
This is classic Nakamoto Institute.
2438
01:55:05.070 --> 01:55:06.050
Everyone is a scammer.
2439
01:55:06.150 --> 01:55:07.330
They're going to try and get your Bitcoin.
2440
01:55:07.950 --> 01:55:09.550
But, but, but everyone wants the Bitcoin.
2441
01:55:09.810 --> 01:55:09.910
Yes.
2442
01:55:09.970 --> 01:55:13.590
Everyone wants the, the, the pretense of this being better than Bitcoin is
2443
01:55:13.590 --> 01:55:14.050
gone, right?
2444
01:55:14.050 --> 01:55:16.830
And all of the narratives that surround this stuff, it used to be, this is
2445
01:55:16.830 --> 01:55:17.590
Bitcoin, but better.
2446
01:55:17.590 --> 01:55:21.450
Like back when I got into Bitcoin in 2014, they would all just fork Bitcoin.
2447
01:55:22.130 --> 01:55:24.370
They still were dumping shit on you to take your Bitcoin.
2448
01:55:24.790 --> 01:55:25.910
Yeah, that's all it was.
2449
01:55:26.310 --> 01:55:29.090
And it was, and what's happened now is that the market's getting more
2450
01:55:29.090 --> 01:55:32.050
sophisticated where you have to have a more elaborate shell game of moving
2451
01:55:32.050 --> 01:55:33.970
things around to try and take your Bitcoin, right?
2452
01:55:34.010 --> 01:55:35.650
It's a Rube Goldberg machine to take your Bitcoin.
2453
01:55:35.770 --> 01:55:39.350
It used to be, well, we, in 2014, it was, we took the Bitcoin code base,
2454
01:55:39.410 --> 01:55:43.030
we forked it and we made it 42 million Bitcoin instead of 21 million.
2455
01:55:43.370 --> 01:55:45.010
And then it became Litecoin, right?
2456
01:55:45.010 --> 01:55:48.530
Like, that used to be like, that was like, and that, and Litecoin is still
2457
01:55:48.530 --> 01:55:51.350
around today because it was such, because it was so early to that concept.
2458
01:55:52.150 --> 01:55:52.730
Bitcoin's winning.
2459
01:55:53.070 --> 01:55:56.050
Like, like, like people are going to scam and they're going to do their things.
2460
01:55:56.310 --> 01:56:00.510
Just buy your Bitcoin, secure your Bitcoin, spend time with your family and
2461
01:56:00.510 --> 01:56:04.070
your friends, like find meaning in life, work on hard things, like challenge
2462
01:56:04.070 --> 01:56:08.510
yourself, smell the roses and be part of this great history, like of what's
2463
01:56:08.510 --> 01:56:09.070
happening right now.
2464
01:56:09.510 --> 01:56:11.490
How fucking lucky are we?
2465
01:56:11.690 --> 01:56:13.090
Like this doesn't happen, okay?
2466
01:56:13.090 --> 01:56:17.810
Like through human history, that like you get to see the thing that you create,
2467
01:56:18.810 --> 01:56:19.070
okay?
2468
01:56:19.250 --> 01:56:22.370
Sort of like win at the scale that is winning.
2469
01:56:22.630 --> 01:56:25.530
Like you don't see it, like you really don't, okay?
2470
01:56:25.630 --> 01:56:30.010
Like the best, closest thing we had was when some founder builds a company that
2471
01:56:30.010 --> 01:56:31.450
just takes over the world, but that's...
2472
01:56:31.450 --> 01:56:31.910
Rockefeller.
2473
01:56:32.010 --> 01:56:36.090
But that's still sort of like you're a little sort of tiny universe of it.
2474
01:56:36.170 --> 01:56:40.310
It's not like, you know, like seeing electricity being in every fucking house.
2475
01:56:40.370 --> 01:56:41.150
Right, right.
2476
01:56:41.150 --> 01:56:45.150
Like, you know, like you don't see that in your lifetime, right?
2477
01:56:45.250 --> 01:56:49.010
Like it's and all this happening in this amount of time is insane.
2478
01:56:49.450 --> 01:56:52.610
Like, you know, MicroStrategy just fucking joined the hundred fucking biggest,
2479
01:56:52.830 --> 01:56:55.330
like the hundred Nasdaq 100 or whatever it is.
2480
01:56:55.650 --> 01:57:00.570
And like we would be like celebrating that shit just like, you know, a few
2481
01:57:00.570 --> 01:57:03.430
years ago, like people would be losing their fucking minds.
2482
01:57:03.510 --> 01:57:07.110
Remember, like we were celebrating PayPal when there was talk about them
2483
01:57:07.110 --> 01:57:08.090
adopting Bitcoin.
2484
01:57:08.090 --> 01:57:11.770
Like, you know, like it's money.
2485
01:57:11.910 --> 01:57:17.010
We don't care as long as it's one more person just like joining your network.
2486
01:57:18.330 --> 01:57:22.990
We win this by network growth, not by choice of network players.
2487
01:57:23.950 --> 01:57:24.170
That's right.
2488
01:57:25.010 --> 01:57:27.610
Anyways, guys, like this was fun.
2489
01:57:27.950 --> 01:57:28.510
It was a good one.
2490
01:57:29.130 --> 01:57:29.370
Yes.
2491
01:57:29.750 --> 01:57:30.810
Thank you so much for coming.
2492
01:57:31.130 --> 01:57:32.530
Any final thoughts, Mr. Craig?
2493
01:57:33.070 --> 01:57:34.150
I just agree with you.
2494
01:57:34.920 --> 01:57:43.770
Honestly, personally, I feel I feel that it's I'm just incredibly lucky to be
2495
01:57:43.770 --> 01:57:50.290
able to do what I do to be able to be a single person creating a
2496
01:57:50.290 --> 01:57:56.010
product which has a meaningful, small but meaningful impact on what you just
2497
01:57:56.010 --> 01:57:57.430
described.
2498
01:57:57.770 --> 01:58:00.950
It is an incredible privilege.
2499
01:58:01.450 --> 01:58:06.950
It is one that makes me just very, very happy.
2500
01:58:07.270 --> 01:58:11.170
Actually, to be honest, I just can't believe how lucky I got in life.
2501
01:58:11.310 --> 01:58:14.510
It's like, who knows what tomorrow brings?
2502
01:58:14.630 --> 01:58:16.310
Like, who knows what challenges it brings?
2503
01:58:16.370 --> 01:58:17.910
Who knows how I'm going to feel about it?
2504
01:58:17.930 --> 01:58:21.150
But I, you know, what I've learned is that you have to actually enjoy the
2505
01:58:21.150 --> 01:58:23.530
feeding today, just like you have to enjoy the Bitcoin price today.
2506
01:58:23.610 --> 01:58:24.590
Maybe it drops tomorrow.
2507
01:58:24.850 --> 01:58:26.790
But you have to enjoy today.
2508
01:58:27.170 --> 01:58:28.490
You know, today is important.
2509
01:58:28.590 --> 01:58:29.910
The moment that you're in is important.
2510
01:58:29.910 --> 01:58:34.970
And right now, every moment that I feel, I feel incredibly lucky to do what I
2511
01:58:34.970 --> 01:58:35.170
do.
2512
01:58:36.010 --> 01:58:39.170
It is it is a blessing.
2513
01:58:39.290 --> 01:58:41.950
I guess you would say I'm not a religious person, but it's a it's a blessing
2514
01:58:41.950 --> 01:58:44.070
to be able to do it.
2515
01:58:44.550 --> 01:58:45.550
I enjoy it.
2516
01:58:45.610 --> 01:58:46.910
And I'm going to keep on going.
2517
01:58:47.150 --> 01:58:48.630
So, yeah, those are my thoughts.
2518
01:58:49.730 --> 01:58:50.010
Rob.
2519
01:58:51.230 --> 01:58:52.430
Yeah, incredibly grateful.
2520
01:58:52.950 --> 01:58:55.850
Just in Bitcoin, it feels like a Thanksgiving episode where I was talking about
2521
01:58:55.850 --> 01:58:56.910
how grateful and thankful we are.
2522
01:58:57.290 --> 01:58:58.510
Bitcoin's Thanksgiving every day.
2523
01:58:58.510 --> 01:58:59.810
Every day is Thanksgiving.
2524
01:58:59.950 --> 01:59:00.370
That's right.
2525
01:59:01.910 --> 01:59:03.270
Totally get what you guys are saying.
2526
01:59:03.590 --> 01:59:08.590
I Bitcoin, I found Bitcoin when I was fresh out of college, broke.
2527
01:59:09.230 --> 01:59:12.370
And I was this crazy person thinking that was going to succeed in seeing over
2528
01:59:12.370 --> 01:59:16.270
the past, you know, 12 years or so how far it's come so quickly.
2529
01:59:16.270 --> 01:59:20.490
It just makes me, you know, it's really exciting to see something and be able
2530
01:59:20.490 --> 01:59:24.410
to see something in a nascent stage, really start to kind of conquer the world
2531
01:59:24.410 --> 01:59:25.530
stage in the way it has.
2532
01:59:26.110 --> 01:59:26.750
Very grateful.
2533
01:59:26.950 --> 01:59:30.010
And it's also given me a lot of meaning and finding hard problems and things to
2534
01:59:30.010 --> 01:59:32.390
work on, trying to build a company in this ecosystem.
2535
01:59:32.690 --> 01:59:35.790
It's I've learned a lot about myself and learned a lot about the world by going
2536
01:59:35.790 --> 01:59:36.570
through that process.
2537
01:59:36.870 --> 01:59:40.430
Speaking of, if you're interested in sharing your Bitcoin custody or you want
2538
01:59:40.430 --> 01:59:43.270
to just shoot me a note directly, I've had a lot of people who listen to
2539
01:59:43.270 --> 01:59:44.390
the show who shoot me notes directly.
2540
01:59:44.570 --> 01:59:46.370
Always fun to get a chance to talk to people.
2541
01:59:46.950 --> 01:59:48.250
Rob at AnchorWatch.com.
2542
01:59:48.290 --> 01:59:51.510
And you want to drop your name on our mailing list, AnchorWatch.com.
2543
01:59:51.590 --> 01:59:53.190
You can just drop your name and email there.
2544
01:59:53.190 --> 01:59:57.150
Yeah, just incredibly grateful to also find time with you two fine gentlemen to
2545
01:59:57.150 --> 02:00:00.370
talk about fun Bitcoin tech and go deep in the weeds on all of it, because
2546
02:00:00.370 --> 02:00:02.830
this is it's almost like therapy in its own right.
2547
02:00:02.890 --> 02:00:04.850
I get to talk about all the technical nitty gritty of Bitcoin.
2548
02:00:05.030 --> 02:00:07.030
I got a whole rundown of HWI today.
2549
02:00:07.170 --> 02:00:08.530
That was a fun little masterclass.
2550
02:00:08.590 --> 02:00:10.250
So thank you guys for your time, too.
2551
02:00:11.190 --> 02:00:16.970
Yeah, you know, I posted something like when the Bitcoin hit 100k, talking
2552
02:00:16.970 --> 02:00:20.150
about like CoinKite specifically, not about my journey in Bitcoin.
2553
02:00:20.530 --> 02:00:27.790
It's like, you know, we do what we do because we want to do and I
2554
02:00:27.790 --> 02:00:33.390
don't think there is a more lucky sort of existence than that.
2555
02:00:34.150 --> 02:00:38.010
You know, and with all its problems, like, you know, like being broke, being
2556
02:00:38.010 --> 02:00:41.610
this, doing that, you know, like it's hard, you know, you have the haters, you
2557
02:00:41.610 --> 02:00:45.770
have competition, you have this, you have that, you know, like you learn how to
2558
02:00:45.770 --> 02:00:46.630
lick envelopes.
2559
02:00:46.630 --> 02:00:49.990
If business people understand this, like you don't have to, like it's.
2560
02:00:51.510 --> 02:00:56.590
And it's so rewarding, like, you know, like we it's like, you know, I need to
2561
02:00:56.590 --> 02:00:59.250
protect my bags, I need to protect my family bags and I want to protect
2562
02:00:59.250 --> 02:01:00.230
customer bags, right?
2563
02:01:00.250 --> 02:01:02.290
Like that is it's a bag defense company.
2564
02:01:02.530 --> 02:01:03.950
That's what we built on CoinKite's side.
2565
02:01:04.750 --> 02:01:09.090
And we wake up every day like just thinking about crazy shit that we want to
2566
02:01:09.090 --> 02:01:09.330
do.
2567
02:01:10.210 --> 02:01:14.110
And like, again, super lucky to be able to do that and have a market that
2568
02:01:14.110 --> 02:01:17.610
appreciates that and, you know, not going to stop.
2569
02:01:18.450 --> 02:01:22.550
And, you know, like we tried to stop, we tried retiring, like it's don't want
2570
02:01:22.550 --> 02:01:23.110
to do that.
2571
02:01:24.310 --> 02:01:28.150
It's like, you know, that that's the purpose that I have today that I feel like
2572
02:01:28.150 --> 02:01:29.190
I wanted to do today.
2573
02:01:29.810 --> 02:01:33.690
And, you know, it allows me to like have a pod and have like, you know,
2574
02:01:33.690 --> 02:01:37.570
people like you guys who are also making the world a better place and building
2575
02:01:37.570 --> 02:01:41.370
businesses and doing stuff like it's just so fucking awesome.
2576
02:01:41.590 --> 02:01:41.770
Right.
2577
02:01:41.810 --> 02:01:43.450
Like it's just so much winning.
2578
02:01:43.450 --> 02:01:47.390
Like I don't understand the grumpy people.
2579
02:01:47.630 --> 02:01:51.050
Like it's like it's just such an absurd amount of winning.
2580
02:01:51.430 --> 02:01:55.430
Like, you know, people don't get to win in this lifetime, in this scale.
2581
02:01:56.190 --> 02:02:00.210
And, you know, like and you take your time and you donate your time, you donate
2582
02:02:00.210 --> 02:02:05.370
your resources to improve even further, like the mission and, you know, and the
2583
02:02:05.370 --> 02:02:10.930
environment and you put your fucking effort in your like in your and you
2584
02:02:10.930 --> 02:02:13.270
criticize projects and you criticize things.
2585
02:02:13.530 --> 02:02:15.450
And, you know, it's part of the game.
2586
02:02:15.890 --> 02:02:19.910
Like, you know, it's like we're all here to to make shit better.
2587
02:02:20.210 --> 02:02:22.890
And, you know, and if you don't like it, go fuck yourself.
2588
02:02:24.370 --> 02:02:29.530
You know, like and if you don't want to be happy, I mean, dude, like it's
2589
02:02:29.530 --> 02:02:30.470
nothing we can do.
2590
02:02:31.230 --> 02:02:34.910
You know, if the winning doesn't make you happy, like this amount of winning
2591
02:02:34.910 --> 02:02:35.730
doesn't make you happy.
2592
02:02:35.810 --> 02:02:38.790
Like, sorry, like it's going to be very hard to find something else.
2593
02:02:38.790 --> 02:02:42.030
You know, go to therapy.
2594
02:02:42.370 --> 02:02:47.110
You know, we have people who rather rewrite the HWI in Java than going to
2595
02:02:47.110 --> 02:02:47.430
therapy.
2596
02:02:47.690 --> 02:02:50.630
You know, we have people who want to do insurance instead of going to therapy.
2597
02:02:51.190 --> 02:02:52.670
You know, we have people who start podcasts.
2598
02:02:53.490 --> 02:02:54.290
It's great.
2599
02:02:54.750 --> 02:02:56.670
Anyways, thank you so much, guys, for coming.
2600
02:02:56.930 --> 02:02:58.130
This was a fun episode.
2601
02:02:58.430 --> 02:02:59.270
I really enjoyed it.
2602
02:03:02.340 --> 02:03:03.220
Thanks for listening.
2603
02:03:03.460 --> 02:03:05.500
For more resources, check the show notes.
2604
02:03:05.740 --> 02:03:07.280
We put a lot of effort into them.
2605
02:03:07.560 --> 02:03:09.580
And remember, we don't have a crystal ball.
2606
02:03:09.580 --> 02:03:11.220
So let us know about your project.
2607
02:03:11.540 --> 02:03:15.200
Visit bitcoin.review to find out how to get in touch.