00:00:03
Speaker 1: Hey, welcome in latest edition of Birdland Territory. We're missing Brad today, but Brad Brock will be back in a couple of days. We got a great guest to talk to, Tim and I. Forrest Herman is the Orioles director of pitching. I've known him since he first joined the organization in 2022, out interviewing him at Ripken Stadium in Aberdeen when you were the pitching coach there, Forrest. Moved on to AA in 2023. Moved up to become management of sorts, I guess, as the lower level pitching coordinator in 24. director of pitching development in 25 director of pitching in 2026. So different titles, but you keep moving up the ladder for us. And I'm really excited for you because, uh, I felt the first time I met you, man, this is a sharp young guy. You had a background at the premier pitching performance where I think you met a young man named John means back in the day. And, uh, you and the staff there helped him turn into an opening day starter in the major leagues.
00:00:59
Speaker 2: You work for the.
00:01:00
Speaker 1: Reds and the Mariners and now the Orioles. And, uh, you and your staff, man, you've got some pitching prospects to work with in Birdland. 2026 must have been a fun season for us.
00:01:11
Speaker 2: It was a very fun season.
00:01:13
Speaker 3: Really, I appreciate you guys having me on, but really, really proud of our coaches, coordinators, and mostly the players for doing the hardest part of it. And, you know, great to see everybody leveling up. And Iron sharpens iron. It's been a really fun dynamic, and the continuity in our group has allowed us to learn and better serve each wave of a player coming through.
00:01:37
Speaker 2: So we had a really.
00:01:39
Speaker 3: Fun season watching these guys night in and night out across a handful of different levels.
00:01:44
Speaker 1: Well, one thing I want to ask at the outset is, and I've talked to many minor league staff over the years about the pride they take in seeing a player go to the major leagues. And this year in Baltimore, Brandon Young, what he did was exceptional. At the end of the year, we saw Luis de Leon in the bullpen. That was amazing. First international guy under Elias and Kobe Perez to make it all the way to Baltimore, joins Visayo there. And Trey Gibson had a great start late in the year. I mean, what excitement is that just organization-wide when you see young kids pitching well in Baltimore?
00:02:22
Speaker 3: It's so exciting to see that. I I think you alluded to Kobe and Mike and having, um, having daily own be the first one to work his way all the way up through the system. But there are so many people that impacted him from the time at the DR complex to Anderson Tavares, helping him across the system as a Latin American pitching coordinator.
00:02:44
Speaker 2: And then ultimately the coaches doing a.
00:02:47
Speaker 3: Great job at every step to serve the player, learn how to help Louise through different things. And, uh, really a cool thing to see. And then that extends over on the amateur scouting side with a player like Trey Gibson, where the work isn't done after the draft is complete. We keep working and those guys did a great job bringing him on. And then obviously from there, he did so much of the hard work and whatnot, but it was a team effort across the whole system. A lot of people in that village for all of them. And depending on the guy, what his background is, what he needs, he has different people who come to the table to help him. And, uh, ultimately it, it's been a really fun thing to see those guys experience success, go, you know, have the, uh, have the big stakes and, uh, whether it was towards the end for daily own or in the middle when, uh, when we were up against it and Gibson went into Yankee stadium.
00:03:50
Speaker 2: So I think everybody feels, uh, a sense of pride.
00:03:53
Speaker 3: And contribution when they see players that they've helped or, um, you know, guided or given opportunity to throughout, go, go do the thing. And then Brandon Young's developed at the major league level, a ton of credit to our major league group there. It doesn't end in the minor leagues and, uh, the work those guys did with BY and, uh, BY, obviously the, the calluses he built over the years, um, And that one from a rehab to a pitching development to a major league group. It's really fun to have the different parties, the different pockets of the org impacting these guys.
00:04:32
Speaker 2: And they're starting to make an impact.
00:04:35
Speaker 4: Forrest, focusing in on Luis de Leon, we talked so many times, so many episodes, just how impressed we were at that young man's poise. Where he transitioned to becoming a reliever to help this team while they were competing for a playoff spot. and he was getting thrown into the fire, man, and he didn't wilt at all. I was just so impressed. Electric arm, but talk about maybe transitioning. Obviously, he's going to be a starting pitcher again next year, Craig, and Mike talked about that at the season-ending press conference, but talk about that transition. He had four outings at Norfolk before coming up in Baltimore in the pen.
00:05:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, the transition, it's something we felt really good about the person and seeing him go through different, really different things over the years. And whether that was spring training, a major league spring training game and coming out of the bullpen facing the pirates. And at that point, the biggest situation of this career or, you know, pitching in some other packed houses for major league games and the way he's major league spring training games and the way he had always handled the, the big moments.
00:05:49
Speaker 2: And, In addition to that, the way that he handled.
00:05:54
Speaker 3: Success and failure throughout the minor leagues gave us a lot of conviction that he was going to be okay if it went really well and that he was going to be okay even if it was a little bit of a learning curve. And that's what you saw in Norfolk. But under the hood, he was doing just fine. He was adjusting to the.
00:06:15
Speaker 2: Warm-up cadence and the warm-up routine. That's not.
00:06:20
Speaker 3: always the easiest thing, but it's something that when you pay attention and have a large amount of attention to detail and you have the right group around them being, you know, Anderson Tavares, Jeff Ware, and then some of his teammates that were passing through Norfolk at the time and on rehab and, um, guys who'd been in the major leagues who, when you know how to carry yourself in a clubhouse and be a, um, be a great presence amongst a team guys are willing to help you. And he has great intent through how he goes about things. And ultimately he, you know, ultimately he went through a little bit, but it was all right. There's holes in the mound here. We need to learn to navigate that.
00:07:09
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:07:10
Speaker 3: We maybe need to simplify our pitch mix a little bit so that we can just command the zone because we don't have the third time through the order.
00:07:18
Speaker 2: Okay, there's a bag open. Um, do we pitch this guy a little bit different?
00:07:22
Speaker 3: And those are the lessons you're learning along the way, but the more engaged you are in, in the bullpen with your coaches, with your teammates, you could pick those things up pretty quick. And when you respond well to pressure and big moments in an environment, and we felt pretty good that he'd have a, you know, he'd have a good shot at it. And, uh, he, you know, he proved himself right in that sense. And, uh, you know, Steve, you saw him in Aberdeen plenty. And then you saw him even early in the season in double A and like the kids resilient. And, you know, those are the real things that go into it.
00:08:02
Speaker 2: And then it's just small skills from there.
00:08:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. Saw him in Bowie and his on field looked a lot lighter than the box score that night. And I left thinking, This kid's turned around his season, and the folks in Bowie told me he in fact had. And so how did you guys determine, and Craig Albernaz would tell us late in the year, a lot of Zoom calls, a lot of meetings amongst organization-wide pitching coaches to determine this kid could handle all this, handle the move to AAA, handle the move to the bullpen. Boom, he's pitching in high leverage in the major leagues. This happened within weeks almost. How did you guys determine he might be able to handle it?
00:08:44
Speaker 3: I think that's years of, of learning Luis and Luis showing us who he, he really is when, uh, when there are different stakes, there are different trials and tribulations throughout. And, um, it's a collaborative effort across the organization, but you don't always come to those conclusions, like a snap of a finger. Um, it may feel that way from the outside, but so many things that he did go through between spring trainings in the past Arizona fall league. Um, and then, you know, down the stretch, it was really to, he had so many skills. It was learning how and when to apply them. And, you know, we, we made sure we had the right people around him at the right times, or at least what we, we thought was the best ecosystem for him to develop in. And, um, they did a great job with him. He did a great job and did, uh, Again, it just comes down to getting to know your players over time, but also you certainly believe in the skills.
00:09:49
Speaker 4: Forrest, you brought up Brandon Young earlier, and Steve, Brad, and I, we talked so much about it. It was a frustrating year, but there were so many really good stories from this Orioles team, maybe none better than Brandon Young, who ended up being their most consistent starter. He didn't break spring training with the club. If injuries didn't happen, who knows what kind of runway he would have ended up having, but When did you think that this could be a special season for Brandon Young and just seeing that four-seamer develop into a weapon and him altering that grip on the splitter? When did you think, oh, wow, this could be a pretty special season for him?
00:10:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, he just kept doing it. And week over week, again, you know B.Y. over time in the organization and nobody.
00:10:43
Speaker 3: It's hard to find a guy more steady and thoughtful with his, his process. And he's, he's got the right stuff mentally. And ultimately he got to, I'll never forget the outing in Durham right before he, he came up and he pitched extremely well and it was putting everything exactly where he wanted. And I remember in that moment thinking this, if this guy gets the opportunity soon, he may never give it back. And more or less that's, what ended up happening. And each level of his process took a step forward as he, he just.
00:11:19
Speaker 2: Took more and more ownership, especially in, in the weight room and training.
00:11:24
Speaker 3: And you really got to see the fruits of that labor as he was able to hold up through a full season and throw some of.
00:11:31
Speaker 2: His best velocity down the stretch that that wasn't an accident. That was a testament to him.
00:11:37
Speaker 3: We've certainly believed in the talent, the command and, When everything started to really come together, you knew BYU was going to hold on to it.
00:11:47
Speaker 1: We're going to get into, in a few minutes, some of the individual names on the Oriole farm with Forrest. And I know fans who follow rankings, which is a lot of you, clearly noted the Oriole top 30 right now with Baseball America. Three of the top four are pitchers. Five of the top eight. Nine of the top 14 are pitchers. And the system got so bad. much better over the year, Forrest, in that when Trey Gibson made his Major League debut in May, he was the number one ranked Oriole prospect, position player and pitcher, number one. When he came back and pitched in September, he was the ninth highest rated pitcher. He has thrown well this year, but he was falling behind others because others did so well, and he acquired, obviously, Ionson and some guys at the deadline. As you ended the year, what was it like to be working with so many good prospects. Is this the best you've seen it? How exciting was it for the staff?
00:12:46
Speaker 2: Incredibly exciting.
00:12:47
Speaker 3: Every night at every level, you're thrilled to watch the guy go to work and either show you what you anticipate is going to be a steady version of himself based on the process they developed with their coaches in between weeks and weeks.
00:13:07
Speaker 2: Also, some of these.
00:13:08
Speaker 3: Guys really finding themselves anchoring to that, and they ran with it. It was a ton of fun to see their development. It's one of those things where competing against your peers in a rotation, each of them want to be better than the guy right next to them. And when the group can start to level itself up against each other and a very healthy competition, and you also see somebody in front of you go do it and do the job well. at the major league level. And I know for a lot of them, they think, well, if he can do it, I can do it. And a lot of them do have the skills to ultimately make it happen. So they are all putting good things out into the environment and taking little things from each other. And we've had some good continuity in, in the pitching development group. And we've also had some nice additions that have helped push our philosophy, push our group forward. And we are never done learning because we're here to just serve our players. And ultimately I think they, they felt that we started to really find the right values that a few of them were able to compete inside.
00:14:18
Speaker 2: Of, and then their skills took it from there.
00:14:22
Speaker 3: And it was really fun to see them compete this year and the level of consistency for some of them week in week out was truly impressive.
00:14:33
Speaker 4: Forrest, I would love to know just, the intake process, if you will, during a trade. So for example, uh, Adley Rochman and, and I and Singh comes over and Witherspoon comes over. What is it like when they get in the organization? Like, do you let them just, Hey, adjust. And then you start tweaking and looking at underlying metrics. How, how is the intake when, when a pitcher in this instance is acquired?
00:15:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, it, It's different for each of them, but the part of it that stays the same is you go try to learn them as fast as possible.
00:15:13
Speaker 2: And that's learning.
00:15:15
Speaker 3: Who was in their pitching village with the other, sometimes the other organization, or it's a coach outside of professional baseball. Maybe it's an agent, a college coach, but it's starting to figure out what do these players value?
00:15:30
Speaker 2: What language do they speak?
00:15:33
Speaker 3: And being aware of, obviously what we do and our philosophy, but how do we best integrate that or understand where it doesn't align? And that's, that's just okay. And we're here to serve the players. There are tons of different ways to be a great major league pitcher and ultimately learning them up front. You learn what they've done, what they've gone through, how that has led to obviously they're acquired for a reason, but maybe there are aspects of that, that there is still some untapped potential and being able to be the, uh, the change of scenery that's productive for a guy is, is something that it's not a one size fit all approach to, to each player. You have to learn them, learn the people that, they trust, believe in, and ultimately work your way into that sort of partnership with the guy. But learning to play the game with intent and ultimately value the skills, we value the fundamental side of it, and we're working hard to put it all together. So those types of things scale across baseball players typically, and it's just figuring out what language to speak to them.
00:16:57
Speaker 1: We are talking with the Orioles director of pitching, Forrest Herman, on Birdland Territory today. When we continue in a minute, let's touch on three top 100 pitching prospects as ranked by MLBPipeline.com. We'll ask them about Anthony Ionson, Joseph Jarwa, and Caden Hunter next on the show.
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00:18:21
Speaker 1: So far, it's Anthony Ionson in the Adley Rutschman trade. And I interviewed him late in the year at Prince George's Stadium. I was so impressed with this young man. intelligent, articulate, driven, focused. It's always there. And I'm like, I can see why that talent works because he's got all these other elements too. Obviously the staff was impressed by him. Baseball America, number 34, MLB pipeline, number 45, Eastern league pitcher of the year. Some scouts think he can move fast next year. And so what about this? This guy is so special.
00:18:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, I, I think the person as you hit on there is for first and foremost, that's a, that's a guy who can in so many ways show up and give the team what it, what it needs that day. And, you know, he organizes his, his game around what, what's the task at hand, what's the game calling for and incredible talent. It's a really unique profile of pitches. He commands them extremely well and, and, it's still a lot of untapped potential in terms of what he can do physically, what he's able to do really just with three primary pitches. And at times a splitter, it's a really impressive arsenal and a more impressive competitor that, that can really put it together night in night out, whether it's a, it doesn't matter what type of lineup, um what sort of course conditions he's dealing with that day uh how's the stomach feel those things don't matter to him he competes.
00:19:57
Speaker 1: Impressive guy won a national championship at lsu and is now top 100 pitching prospect for the orioles joseph gerwar was your minor league pitcher of the year won the jim palmer award highest drafted pitcher under Mike Elias' front office, number 58 out of Michigan State. Tell us a little bit about Joseph Jerwa.
00:20:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joe, that is.
00:20:23
Speaker 3: One of the most steady competitors, one of the most steady people in his process week.
00:20:29
Speaker 2: In, week out.
00:20:30
Speaker 3: It was something we noticed right away as we got to working with him, how just deliberate he is and how intentional and how focused he can become on, you know, what does he need to get to the next level?
00:20:47
Speaker 2: What does he need to get to the next step?
00:20:48
Speaker 3: So he's always had the great fastball changeup combination going back to Michigan state.
00:20:54
Speaker 2: He's an excellent competitor in a lot of different sports. I'd love to tell you about his golf game, maybe some high school football.
00:21:03
Speaker 3: Excellent athlete for his size, but then, you know, he really needed to work on some breaking balls this year and he went out and did that.
00:21:12
Speaker 2: And one of the best parts of how he did it is he worked it inside of his game.
00:21:18
Speaker 3: And I think you were able to see that with how he went out and posted week over week, chewed up innings. You know, at times it was like, wow, you're in, you're in the fifth inning and it's like, you've barely thrown any pitches.
00:21:30
Speaker 2: And that's great. That is exactly what, you know, starting pitchers should be doing. And, especially in their development process.
00:21:38
Speaker 3: So I think that he, you know, exemplifies a lot of what you would want to see in the person in terms of a, and again, this is where iron sharpens iron. You start to put Ionson, Gerwa, and a bunch of these other guys in the same complex and then inside of the same clubhouses. And they're, they're really pushing each other, but he's a, he's an excellent example of, what it should look like week in week out. And I mean, we've, we've just been thrilled to see him hit the crown running how he has and really, really excited for the future.
00:22:17
Speaker 1: Oh, he loves his golf. He's told me about that. This is a kid who can shoot par golf. I mean, he's, he, he's pretty darn good at golf too. So these three guys were talking about forest. This to me blows me away among all minor league pitchers this year, who threw 80 innings or more. This is 30 organizations. The top five ERAs, three are from the Baltimore Orioles. Ionson, who we touched on, second, 154. Caden Hunter, we're about to talk about, fourth at 201. And Joseph Jerwa, 227. That's all organizations. Three, 60% of the top five ERAs in baseball this year were with the Orioles. So that's an impressive stat. So tell us about Caden Hunter. Sixth round draft pick out of USC. gained some velocity on the Orioles watch and he had a big year.
00:23:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, no question.
00:23:09
Speaker 3: He he's covered so much ground the past few years. And that was something we, we saw him taking those leaps at USC and we were so excited to end up with them in the draft and to be able to really give them the opportunity to get to work and, and keep taking those jumps. And he, he certainly did. He, He's got a great fastball, learning to command it. It's an excellent changeup with unbelievable change of speeds, nice parachute there. Similar to Joe, he's really worked on the breaking balls this year.
00:23:43
Speaker 2: While the game hasn't necessarily.
00:23:44
Speaker 3: Pushed him to do that, he's able to really beat dudes with his fastball. Man, he's an impressive guy. He's worked really hard this offseason with this previous off season in a 25, 26 to get the body in a better place and build on some of the things that he was, he was starting to show at USC and you know, he's covered so much ground in his development in the last couple of years. I can't wait to see him keep pushing, but it's been a, a great, great season for him.
00:24:17
Speaker 2: And really you could lump that into a few years. He's been on a nice trajectory.
00:24:23
Speaker 4: Forrest, what's so amazing about this abundance of riches that the Orioles have in terms of pitching prospects is some guys kind of get buried a little bit. And Steve mentioned the fact that Gibson was the number one pitching prospect and falls down because all of these guys are having such great years. Someone getting elevated to double A at the end of the year. What did you think of JT Quinn's season?
00:24:54
Speaker 3: That was another really exciting season. He was the guy who was taking some big steps forward in the Cape not long before the draft. One of his big goals for the year was all the little things that go into how do I stay on the field for a full season and start to really log some innings and go deeper into games. My goodness, you saw the velocity of the command improve throughout the year. His changeup improved throughout the year and On top of all that, the foundation is what we saw taking the biggest steps forward.
00:25:30
Speaker 2: And it shows up in the box score.
00:25:33
Speaker 3: Not always the box score, but it was showing up generally week over week with how he was pitching, at least what he could control.
00:25:40
Speaker 2: And JT did a.
00:25:44
Speaker 3: Ton of prep this past offseason, a ton of work throughout the season, managing the different ebbs and flows of workload where ultimately... him getting to the end of the season, posting all season was a massive accomplishment. And it was, you know, the skills were no doubt ready to be tested against that level by the end.
00:26:09
Speaker 1: We're talking with the O's director of pitching, Forrest Herman, a lot of great pitching prospects in Birdland right now. And when we continue, I want to ask Forrest what makes good pitching development. I mean, that's a broad topic. and not one size fits all, obviously. Let's touch on that in a moment.
00:26:28
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00:26:35
Speaker 1: Search 1057 The Fan Baltimore and never miss a moment of coverage on the teams you love. So, Forrest, I'm always amazed, surprised how pitching coaches and yourself and your staff can take so much that's out there now Kids got to learn spin rate. What's the best grip for my slider? Will this slider play in the major leagues? How can I gain some velo? What about my nutrition? What should I do between starts? All this falls under pitching development. And here's what makes it more complicated. What works for Joe Sofjerwa may not work for Sebastian Gungora or JT Quinn. So with all that thrown out there, how are the Orioles doing well at pitching development? What are some important things right now?
00:27:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that.
00:27:24
Speaker 3: It's a really challenging thing to go actually develop the individual. And we try to take each guy as one of one. And he's his own dynamic system. He has his own things that make him click in different areas, whether that's the weight room, arm care, how he manages his workload week over week. And then certainly with the, I mean, how he strategizes, how... nastiest pitches are and how consistently he can get to all of those things. It's being as principle based as possible, but trying to meet every individual where they need to be met at and going from there. And ultimately there are some values. There are some things that generally scale and there are different ways to get to the same answer in the big leagues and trying to you know, look at each guy as that individual system or that individual, you know, summation of different skills and quirks and things. And whether that's a guy who runs hot mentally or is super calm out there. And we look at how all of that ultimately impacts the bottom line, which is how's that guy able to go out there and execute what he wants to, when he wants to, and really when the game needs it.
00:28:50
Speaker 4: Forrest, I wanted to get your thoughts on promotions. And I know that this is probably a case-by-case basis, and some guys are fast-tracked, some guys are slow-played. Something that's been interesting, and I do think this is a very good thing, is minor league baseball is so much more accessible than it was five, ten years from now in terms of the MILB TV app, and you see all these highlights. So fans, they're more educated about these guys than they have been. That brings up, oh, why isn't so-and-so here yet?
00:29:22
Speaker 2: Why isn't so, you know?
00:29:24
Speaker 4: So what goes into a promotion? What goes into, okay, maybe this guy could climb two or three levels in one season?
00:29:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's certainly, do they have the skills to do it? Is the performance good? and is the game telling them they need more of a challenge? That's a part of the puzzle. That's a part of the equation.
00:29:47
Speaker 2: But then also, we're starting to really make sure that.
00:29:52
Speaker 3: Are these guys developing the skills, whether it's in the clubhouse, whether it's in their.
00:29:57
Speaker 2: Day-to-day life that, you know, we, we think in the.
00:30:00
Speaker 3: Game sometimes is telling them sometimes isn't telling them at that point, they, they truly need to do this for a long time. And ultimately they everybody learns at different rates. And I think you're trying to manage the success, manage the failure, all of that with each guy based on, where he's at, what he's going through.
00:30:23
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, the skills are going to tell you, but we have to help figure out, is this sustainable?
00:30:31
Speaker 3: Is this a guy that can go out there under the longest season in the game and the most stressful, pressure-packed games of the entire industry and go do this job over and over again?
00:30:46
Speaker 2: It's a very complex thing.
00:30:51
Speaker 3: It's not just skills, but it's figuring out each of these individual guys and the coaches, the coordinators and everybody. It's a group effort on managers figuring out who's ultimately ready. But sometimes one thing will look more ready than the other. And other times the opportunity will present itself and somebody steps up and they just show they're ready for it. And it's not a, It's not a perfect science, but it's a lot of trying to learn your people and then learn, you know, is that promotion actually going to be what hopefully catapults them to find the next gear in their development or the next gear.
00:31:33
Speaker 2: In their game?
00:31:35
Speaker 3: Or are they going to benefit more from going and spending an off season figuring out what do I need to do? How do I need to structure my life to be able to be more consistent next season in different aspects. It's a very open-ended answer, but you know, ultimately everybody's different and we're trying to make sure when they do get there, they have the right combination of skills.
00:32:02
Speaker 2: On the field, but then the.
00:32:05
Speaker 3: Skills upstairs, because there's a war of attrition when you get, it's incredibly difficult to.
00:32:11
Speaker 2: Break into the league. And, you know, we're really proud of BY proud of Trey Gibson.
00:32:16
Speaker 3: And, DeLeon handled it well on the front end, but we're doing our best as an organization to figure out that right combo so that we can obviously have more of those type of intros to the league, which then can lead to more success.
00:32:31
Speaker 2: Down the line.
00:32:34
Speaker 1: Fans of the Orioles know I love to talk prospects and I love to talk pitching prospects. And this year I love to talk to pitching prospects as I got to meet the guys behind the great stats. And then you talk to Forrest, you talk to Jordy Henry, you talk to Jeremy Haum and so many others in the O's pitching program. I named just a couple there. And you see what's going on. You get to see the work, meet the people, and you feel good about the future. And then you read these rankings and you understand how they came to be. Forrest, what a delightful half hour. I could talk pitching with you for hours, but you've got other things to do. And you were so nice. You took time today to talk to us. I think those fans learned a lot more about pitching on the farm, pitching development and teams that can develop young pitching right now. We'll be going places. Cause that's about the most coveted commodity in the game. So Forrest, enjoy your week. And thanks so much for taking time for us on the show today.
00:33:32
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me guys. Appreciate it.
00:33:35
Speaker 1: Forrest Harmon with us today, the O's director of pitching and, uh, I enjoyed that show. Hope you Ditto's fans will talk to you again soon in a couple days with another edition of Birdland Territory.
00:33:49
Speaker 2: If you made it this far, you'll love this next video. Check it out right here.
00:33:52
Speaker 4: And make sure you subscribe to Birdland Territory for more Orioles coverage like this multiple times a week.
Speaker 1: Hey, welcome in latest edition of Birdland Territory. We're missing Brad today, but Brad Brock will be back in a couple of days. We got a great guest to talk to, Tim and I. Forrest Herman is the Orioles director of pitching. I've known him since he first joined the organization in 2022, out interviewing him at Ripken Stadium in Aberdeen when you were the pitching coach there, Forrest. Moved on to AA in 2023. Moved up to become management of sorts, I guess, as the lower level pitching coordinator in 24. director of pitching development in 25 director of pitching in 2026. So different titles, but you keep moving up the ladder for us. And I'm really excited for you because, uh, I felt the first time I met you, man, this is a sharp young guy. You had a background at the premier pitching performance where I think you met a young man named John means back in the day. And, uh, you and the staff there helped him turn into an opening day starter in the major leagues.
00:00:59
Speaker 2: You work for the.
00:01:00
Speaker 1: Reds and the Mariners and now the Orioles. And, uh, you and your staff, man, you've got some pitching prospects to work with in Birdland. 2026 must have been a fun season for us.
00:01:11
Speaker 2: It was a very fun season.
00:01:13
Speaker 3: Really, I appreciate you guys having me on, but really, really proud of our coaches, coordinators, and mostly the players for doing the hardest part of it. And, you know, great to see everybody leveling up. And Iron sharpens iron. It's been a really fun dynamic, and the continuity in our group has allowed us to learn and better serve each wave of a player coming through.
00:01:37
Speaker 2: So we had a really.
00:01:39
Speaker 3: Fun season watching these guys night in and night out across a handful of different levels.
00:01:44
Speaker 1: Well, one thing I want to ask at the outset is, and I've talked to many minor league staff over the years about the pride they take in seeing a player go to the major leagues. And this year in Baltimore, Brandon Young, what he did was exceptional. At the end of the year, we saw Luis de Leon in the bullpen. That was amazing. First international guy under Elias and Kobe Perez to make it all the way to Baltimore, joins Visayo there. And Trey Gibson had a great start late in the year. I mean, what excitement is that just organization-wide when you see young kids pitching well in Baltimore?
00:02:22
Speaker 3: It's so exciting to see that. I I think you alluded to Kobe and Mike and having, um, having daily own be the first one to work his way all the way up through the system. But there are so many people that impacted him from the time at the DR complex to Anderson Tavares, helping him across the system as a Latin American pitching coordinator.
00:02:44
Speaker 2: And then ultimately the coaches doing a.
00:02:47
Speaker 3: Great job at every step to serve the player, learn how to help Louise through different things. And, uh, really a cool thing to see. And then that extends over on the amateur scouting side with a player like Trey Gibson, where the work isn't done after the draft is complete. We keep working and those guys did a great job bringing him on. And then obviously from there, he did so much of the hard work and whatnot, but it was a team effort across the whole system. A lot of people in that village for all of them. And depending on the guy, what his background is, what he needs, he has different people who come to the table to help him. And, uh, ultimately it, it's been a really fun thing to see those guys experience success, go, you know, have the, uh, have the big stakes and, uh, whether it was towards the end for daily own or in the middle when, uh, when we were up against it and Gibson went into Yankee stadium.
00:03:50
Speaker 2: So I think everybody feels, uh, a sense of pride.
00:03:53
Speaker 3: And contribution when they see players that they've helped or, um, you know, guided or given opportunity to throughout, go, go do the thing. And then Brandon Young's developed at the major league level, a ton of credit to our major league group there. It doesn't end in the minor leagues and, uh, the work those guys did with BY and, uh, BY, obviously the, the calluses he built over the years, um, And that one from a rehab to a pitching development to a major league group. It's really fun to have the different parties, the different pockets of the org impacting these guys.
00:04:32
Speaker 2: And they're starting to make an impact.
00:04:35
Speaker 4: Forrest, focusing in on Luis de Leon, we talked so many times, so many episodes, just how impressed we were at that young man's poise. Where he transitioned to becoming a reliever to help this team while they were competing for a playoff spot. and he was getting thrown into the fire, man, and he didn't wilt at all. I was just so impressed. Electric arm, but talk about maybe transitioning. Obviously, he's going to be a starting pitcher again next year, Craig, and Mike talked about that at the season-ending press conference, but talk about that transition. He had four outings at Norfolk before coming up in Baltimore in the pen.
00:05:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, the transition, it's something we felt really good about the person and seeing him go through different, really different things over the years. And whether that was spring training, a major league spring training game and coming out of the bullpen facing the pirates. And at that point, the biggest situation of this career or, you know, pitching in some other packed houses for major league games and the way he's major league spring training games and the way he had always handled the, the big moments.
00:05:49
Speaker 2: And, In addition to that, the way that he handled.
00:05:54
Speaker 3: Success and failure throughout the minor leagues gave us a lot of conviction that he was going to be okay if it went really well and that he was going to be okay even if it was a little bit of a learning curve. And that's what you saw in Norfolk. But under the hood, he was doing just fine. He was adjusting to the.
00:06:15
Speaker 2: Warm-up cadence and the warm-up routine. That's not.
00:06:20
Speaker 3: always the easiest thing, but it's something that when you pay attention and have a large amount of attention to detail and you have the right group around them being, you know, Anderson Tavares, Jeff Ware, and then some of his teammates that were passing through Norfolk at the time and on rehab and, um, guys who'd been in the major leagues who, when you know how to carry yourself in a clubhouse and be a, um, be a great presence amongst a team guys are willing to help you. And he has great intent through how he goes about things. And ultimately he, you know, ultimately he went through a little bit, but it was all right. There's holes in the mound here. We need to learn to navigate that.
00:07:09
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:07:10
Speaker 3: We maybe need to simplify our pitch mix a little bit so that we can just command the zone because we don't have the third time through the order.
00:07:18
Speaker 2: Okay, there's a bag open. Um, do we pitch this guy a little bit different?
00:07:22
Speaker 3: And those are the lessons you're learning along the way, but the more engaged you are in, in the bullpen with your coaches, with your teammates, you could pick those things up pretty quick. And when you respond well to pressure and big moments in an environment, and we felt pretty good that he'd have a, you know, he'd have a good shot at it. And, uh, he, you know, he proved himself right in that sense. And, uh, you know, Steve, you saw him in Aberdeen plenty. And then you saw him even early in the season in double A and like the kids resilient. And, you know, those are the real things that go into it.
00:08:02
Speaker 2: And then it's just small skills from there.
00:08:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. Saw him in Bowie and his on field looked a lot lighter than the box score that night. And I left thinking, This kid's turned around his season, and the folks in Bowie told me he in fact had. And so how did you guys determine, and Craig Albernaz would tell us late in the year, a lot of Zoom calls, a lot of meetings amongst organization-wide pitching coaches to determine this kid could handle all this, handle the move to AAA, handle the move to the bullpen. Boom, he's pitching in high leverage in the major leagues. This happened within weeks almost. How did you guys determine he might be able to handle it?
00:08:44
Speaker 3: I think that's years of, of learning Luis and Luis showing us who he, he really is when, uh, when there are different stakes, there are different trials and tribulations throughout. And, um, it's a collaborative effort across the organization, but you don't always come to those conclusions, like a snap of a finger. Um, it may feel that way from the outside, but so many things that he did go through between spring trainings in the past Arizona fall league. Um, and then, you know, down the stretch, it was really to, he had so many skills. It was learning how and when to apply them. And, you know, we, we made sure we had the right people around him at the right times, or at least what we, we thought was the best ecosystem for him to develop in. And, um, they did a great job with him. He did a great job and did, uh, Again, it just comes down to getting to know your players over time, but also you certainly believe in the skills.
00:09:49
Speaker 4: Forrest, you brought up Brandon Young earlier, and Steve, Brad, and I, we talked so much about it. It was a frustrating year, but there were so many really good stories from this Orioles team, maybe none better than Brandon Young, who ended up being their most consistent starter. He didn't break spring training with the club. If injuries didn't happen, who knows what kind of runway he would have ended up having, but When did you think that this could be a special season for Brandon Young and just seeing that four-seamer develop into a weapon and him altering that grip on the splitter? When did you think, oh, wow, this could be a pretty special season for him?
00:10:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, he just kept doing it. And week over week, again, you know B.Y. over time in the organization and nobody.
00:10:43
Speaker 3: It's hard to find a guy more steady and thoughtful with his, his process. And he's, he's got the right stuff mentally. And ultimately he got to, I'll never forget the outing in Durham right before he, he came up and he pitched extremely well and it was putting everything exactly where he wanted. And I remember in that moment thinking this, if this guy gets the opportunity soon, he may never give it back. And more or less that's, what ended up happening. And each level of his process took a step forward as he, he just.
00:11:19
Speaker 2: Took more and more ownership, especially in, in the weight room and training.
00:11:24
Speaker 3: And you really got to see the fruits of that labor as he was able to hold up through a full season and throw some of.
00:11:31
Speaker 2: His best velocity down the stretch that that wasn't an accident. That was a testament to him.
00:11:37
Speaker 3: We've certainly believed in the talent, the command and, When everything started to really come together, you knew BYU was going to hold on to it.
00:11:47
Speaker 1: We're going to get into, in a few minutes, some of the individual names on the Oriole farm with Forrest. And I know fans who follow rankings, which is a lot of you, clearly noted the Oriole top 30 right now with Baseball America. Three of the top four are pitchers. Five of the top eight. Nine of the top 14 are pitchers. And the system got so bad. much better over the year, Forrest, in that when Trey Gibson made his Major League debut in May, he was the number one ranked Oriole prospect, position player and pitcher, number one. When he came back and pitched in September, he was the ninth highest rated pitcher. He has thrown well this year, but he was falling behind others because others did so well, and he acquired, obviously, Ionson and some guys at the deadline. As you ended the year, what was it like to be working with so many good prospects. Is this the best you've seen it? How exciting was it for the staff?
00:12:46
Speaker 2: Incredibly exciting.
00:12:47
Speaker 3: Every night at every level, you're thrilled to watch the guy go to work and either show you what you anticipate is going to be a steady version of himself based on the process they developed with their coaches in between weeks and weeks.
00:13:07
Speaker 2: Also, some of these.
00:13:08
Speaker 3: Guys really finding themselves anchoring to that, and they ran with it. It was a ton of fun to see their development. It's one of those things where competing against your peers in a rotation, each of them want to be better than the guy right next to them. And when the group can start to level itself up against each other and a very healthy competition, and you also see somebody in front of you go do it and do the job well. at the major league level. And I know for a lot of them, they think, well, if he can do it, I can do it. And a lot of them do have the skills to ultimately make it happen. So they are all putting good things out into the environment and taking little things from each other. And we've had some good continuity in, in the pitching development group. And we've also had some nice additions that have helped push our philosophy, push our group forward. And we are never done learning because we're here to just serve our players. And ultimately I think they, they felt that we started to really find the right values that a few of them were able to compete inside.
00:14:18
Speaker 2: Of, and then their skills took it from there.
00:14:22
Speaker 3: And it was really fun to see them compete this year and the level of consistency for some of them week in week out was truly impressive.
00:14:33
Speaker 4: Forrest, I would love to know just, the intake process, if you will, during a trade. So for example, uh, Adley Rochman and, and I and Singh comes over and Witherspoon comes over. What is it like when they get in the organization? Like, do you let them just, Hey, adjust. And then you start tweaking and looking at underlying metrics. How, how is the intake when, when a pitcher in this instance is acquired?
00:15:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, it, It's different for each of them, but the part of it that stays the same is you go try to learn them as fast as possible.
00:15:13
Speaker 2: And that's learning.
00:15:15
Speaker 3: Who was in their pitching village with the other, sometimes the other organization, or it's a coach outside of professional baseball. Maybe it's an agent, a college coach, but it's starting to figure out what do these players value?
00:15:30
Speaker 2: What language do they speak?
00:15:33
Speaker 3: And being aware of, obviously what we do and our philosophy, but how do we best integrate that or understand where it doesn't align? And that's, that's just okay. And we're here to serve the players. There are tons of different ways to be a great major league pitcher and ultimately learning them up front. You learn what they've done, what they've gone through, how that has led to obviously they're acquired for a reason, but maybe there are aspects of that, that there is still some untapped potential and being able to be the, uh, the change of scenery that's productive for a guy is, is something that it's not a one size fit all approach to, to each player. You have to learn them, learn the people that, they trust, believe in, and ultimately work your way into that sort of partnership with the guy. But learning to play the game with intent and ultimately value the skills, we value the fundamental side of it, and we're working hard to put it all together. So those types of things scale across baseball players typically, and it's just figuring out what language to speak to them.
00:16:57
Speaker 1: We are talking with the Orioles director of pitching, Forrest Herman, on Birdland Territory today. When we continue in a minute, let's touch on three top 100 pitching prospects as ranked by MLBPipeline.com. We'll ask them about Anthony Ionson, Joseph Jarwa, and Caden Hunter next on the show.
00:17:18
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00:18:21
Speaker 1: So far, it's Anthony Ionson in the Adley Rutschman trade. And I interviewed him late in the year at Prince George's Stadium. I was so impressed with this young man. intelligent, articulate, driven, focused. It's always there. And I'm like, I can see why that talent works because he's got all these other elements too. Obviously the staff was impressed by him. Baseball America, number 34, MLB pipeline, number 45, Eastern league pitcher of the year. Some scouts think he can move fast next year. And so what about this? This guy is so special.
00:18:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, I, I think the person as you hit on there is for first and foremost, that's a, that's a guy who can in so many ways show up and give the team what it, what it needs that day. And, you know, he organizes his, his game around what, what's the task at hand, what's the game calling for and incredible talent. It's a really unique profile of pitches. He commands them extremely well and, and, it's still a lot of untapped potential in terms of what he can do physically, what he's able to do really just with three primary pitches. And at times a splitter, it's a really impressive arsenal and a more impressive competitor that, that can really put it together night in night out, whether it's a, it doesn't matter what type of lineup, um what sort of course conditions he's dealing with that day uh how's the stomach feel those things don't matter to him he competes.
00:19:57
Speaker 1: Impressive guy won a national championship at lsu and is now top 100 pitching prospect for the orioles joseph gerwar was your minor league pitcher of the year won the jim palmer award highest drafted pitcher under Mike Elias' front office, number 58 out of Michigan State. Tell us a little bit about Joseph Jerwa.
00:20:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joe, that is.
00:20:23
Speaker 3: One of the most steady competitors, one of the most steady people in his process week.
00:20:29
Speaker 2: In, week out.
00:20:30
Speaker 3: It was something we noticed right away as we got to working with him, how just deliberate he is and how intentional and how focused he can become on, you know, what does he need to get to the next level?
00:20:47
Speaker 2: What does he need to get to the next step?
00:20:48
Speaker 3: So he's always had the great fastball changeup combination going back to Michigan state.
00:20:54
Speaker 2: He's an excellent competitor in a lot of different sports. I'd love to tell you about his golf game, maybe some high school football.
00:21:03
Speaker 3: Excellent athlete for his size, but then, you know, he really needed to work on some breaking balls this year and he went out and did that.
00:21:12
Speaker 2: And one of the best parts of how he did it is he worked it inside of his game.
00:21:18
Speaker 3: And I think you were able to see that with how he went out and posted week over week, chewed up innings. You know, at times it was like, wow, you're in, you're in the fifth inning and it's like, you've barely thrown any pitches.
00:21:30
Speaker 2: And that's great. That is exactly what, you know, starting pitchers should be doing. And, especially in their development process.
00:21:38
Speaker 3: So I think that he, you know, exemplifies a lot of what you would want to see in the person in terms of a, and again, this is where iron sharpens iron. You start to put Ionson, Gerwa, and a bunch of these other guys in the same complex and then inside of the same clubhouses. And they're, they're really pushing each other, but he's a, he's an excellent example of, what it should look like week in week out. And I mean, we've, we've just been thrilled to see him hit the crown running how he has and really, really excited for the future.
00:22:17
Speaker 1: Oh, he loves his golf. He's told me about that. This is a kid who can shoot par golf. I mean, he's, he, he's pretty darn good at golf too. So these three guys were talking about forest. This to me blows me away among all minor league pitchers this year, who threw 80 innings or more. This is 30 organizations. The top five ERAs, three are from the Baltimore Orioles. Ionson, who we touched on, second, 154. Caden Hunter, we're about to talk about, fourth at 201. And Joseph Jerwa, 227. That's all organizations. Three, 60% of the top five ERAs in baseball this year were with the Orioles. So that's an impressive stat. So tell us about Caden Hunter. Sixth round draft pick out of USC. gained some velocity on the Orioles watch and he had a big year.
00:23:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, no question.
00:23:09
Speaker 3: He he's covered so much ground the past few years. And that was something we, we saw him taking those leaps at USC and we were so excited to end up with them in the draft and to be able to really give them the opportunity to get to work and, and keep taking those jumps. And he, he certainly did. He, He's got a great fastball, learning to command it. It's an excellent changeup with unbelievable change of speeds, nice parachute there. Similar to Joe, he's really worked on the breaking balls this year.
00:23:43
Speaker 2: While the game hasn't necessarily.
00:23:44
Speaker 3: Pushed him to do that, he's able to really beat dudes with his fastball. Man, he's an impressive guy. He's worked really hard this offseason with this previous off season in a 25, 26 to get the body in a better place and build on some of the things that he was, he was starting to show at USC and you know, he's covered so much ground in his development in the last couple of years. I can't wait to see him keep pushing, but it's been a, a great, great season for him.
00:24:17
Speaker 2: And really you could lump that into a few years. He's been on a nice trajectory.
00:24:23
Speaker 4: Forrest, what's so amazing about this abundance of riches that the Orioles have in terms of pitching prospects is some guys kind of get buried a little bit. And Steve mentioned the fact that Gibson was the number one pitching prospect and falls down because all of these guys are having such great years. Someone getting elevated to double A at the end of the year. What did you think of JT Quinn's season?
00:24:54
Speaker 3: That was another really exciting season. He was the guy who was taking some big steps forward in the Cape not long before the draft. One of his big goals for the year was all the little things that go into how do I stay on the field for a full season and start to really log some innings and go deeper into games. My goodness, you saw the velocity of the command improve throughout the year. His changeup improved throughout the year and On top of all that, the foundation is what we saw taking the biggest steps forward.
00:25:30
Speaker 2: And it shows up in the box score.
00:25:33
Speaker 3: Not always the box score, but it was showing up generally week over week with how he was pitching, at least what he could control.
00:25:40
Speaker 2: And JT did a.
00:25:44
Speaker 3: Ton of prep this past offseason, a ton of work throughout the season, managing the different ebbs and flows of workload where ultimately... him getting to the end of the season, posting all season was a massive accomplishment. And it was, you know, the skills were no doubt ready to be tested against that level by the end.
00:26:09
Speaker 1: We're talking with the O's director of pitching, Forrest Herman, a lot of great pitching prospects in Birdland right now. And when we continue, I want to ask Forrest what makes good pitching development. I mean, that's a broad topic. and not one size fits all, obviously. Let's touch on that in a moment.
00:26:28
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00:26:35
Speaker 1: Search 1057 The Fan Baltimore and never miss a moment of coverage on the teams you love. So, Forrest, I'm always amazed, surprised how pitching coaches and yourself and your staff can take so much that's out there now Kids got to learn spin rate. What's the best grip for my slider? Will this slider play in the major leagues? How can I gain some velo? What about my nutrition? What should I do between starts? All this falls under pitching development. And here's what makes it more complicated. What works for Joe Sofjerwa may not work for Sebastian Gungora or JT Quinn. So with all that thrown out there, how are the Orioles doing well at pitching development? What are some important things right now?
00:27:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that.
00:27:24
Speaker 3: It's a really challenging thing to go actually develop the individual. And we try to take each guy as one of one. And he's his own dynamic system. He has his own things that make him click in different areas, whether that's the weight room, arm care, how he manages his workload week over week. And then certainly with the, I mean, how he strategizes, how... nastiest pitches are and how consistently he can get to all of those things. It's being as principle based as possible, but trying to meet every individual where they need to be met at and going from there. And ultimately there are some values. There are some things that generally scale and there are different ways to get to the same answer in the big leagues and trying to you know, look at each guy as that individual system or that individual, you know, summation of different skills and quirks and things. And whether that's a guy who runs hot mentally or is super calm out there. And we look at how all of that ultimately impacts the bottom line, which is how's that guy able to go out there and execute what he wants to, when he wants to, and really when the game needs it.
00:28:50
Speaker 4: Forrest, I wanted to get your thoughts on promotions. And I know that this is probably a case-by-case basis, and some guys are fast-tracked, some guys are slow-played. Something that's been interesting, and I do think this is a very good thing, is minor league baseball is so much more accessible than it was five, ten years from now in terms of the MILB TV app, and you see all these highlights. So fans, they're more educated about these guys than they have been. That brings up, oh, why isn't so-and-so here yet?
00:29:22
Speaker 2: Why isn't so, you know?
00:29:24
Speaker 4: So what goes into a promotion? What goes into, okay, maybe this guy could climb two or three levels in one season?
00:29:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's certainly, do they have the skills to do it? Is the performance good? and is the game telling them they need more of a challenge? That's a part of the puzzle. That's a part of the equation.
00:29:47
Speaker 2: But then also, we're starting to really make sure that.
00:29:52
Speaker 3: Are these guys developing the skills, whether it's in the clubhouse, whether it's in their.
00:29:57
Speaker 2: Day-to-day life that, you know, we, we think in the.
00:30:00
Speaker 3: Game sometimes is telling them sometimes isn't telling them at that point, they, they truly need to do this for a long time. And ultimately they everybody learns at different rates. And I think you're trying to manage the success, manage the failure, all of that with each guy based on, where he's at, what he's going through.
00:30:23
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, the skills are going to tell you, but we have to help figure out, is this sustainable?
00:30:31
Speaker 3: Is this a guy that can go out there under the longest season in the game and the most stressful, pressure-packed games of the entire industry and go do this job over and over again?
00:30:46
Speaker 2: It's a very complex thing.
00:30:51
Speaker 3: It's not just skills, but it's figuring out each of these individual guys and the coaches, the coordinators and everybody. It's a group effort on managers figuring out who's ultimately ready. But sometimes one thing will look more ready than the other. And other times the opportunity will present itself and somebody steps up and they just show they're ready for it. And it's not a, It's not a perfect science, but it's a lot of trying to learn your people and then learn, you know, is that promotion actually going to be what hopefully catapults them to find the next gear in their development or the next gear.
00:31:33
Speaker 2: In their game?
00:31:35
Speaker 3: Or are they going to benefit more from going and spending an off season figuring out what do I need to do? How do I need to structure my life to be able to be more consistent next season in different aspects. It's a very open-ended answer, but you know, ultimately everybody's different and we're trying to make sure when they do get there, they have the right combination of skills.
00:32:02
Speaker 2: On the field, but then the.
00:32:05
Speaker 3: Skills upstairs, because there's a war of attrition when you get, it's incredibly difficult to.
00:32:11
Speaker 2: Break into the league. And, you know, we're really proud of BY proud of Trey Gibson.
00:32:16
Speaker 3: And, DeLeon handled it well on the front end, but we're doing our best as an organization to figure out that right combo so that we can obviously have more of those type of intros to the league, which then can lead to more success.
00:32:31
Speaker 2: Down the line.
00:32:34
Speaker 1: Fans of the Orioles know I love to talk prospects and I love to talk pitching prospects. And this year I love to talk to pitching prospects as I got to meet the guys behind the great stats. And then you talk to Forrest, you talk to Jordy Henry, you talk to Jeremy Haum and so many others in the O's pitching program. I named just a couple there. And you see what's going on. You get to see the work, meet the people, and you feel good about the future. And then you read these rankings and you understand how they came to be. Forrest, what a delightful half hour. I could talk pitching with you for hours, but you've got other things to do. And you were so nice. You took time today to talk to us. I think those fans learned a lot more about pitching on the farm, pitching development and teams that can develop young pitching right now. We'll be going places. Cause that's about the most coveted commodity in the game. So Forrest, enjoy your week. And thanks so much for taking time for us on the show today.
00:33:32
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me guys. Appreciate it.
00:33:35
Speaker 1: Forrest Harmon with us today, the O's director of pitching and, uh, I enjoyed that show. Hope you Ditto's fans will talk to you again soon in a couple days with another edition of Birdland Territory.
00:33:49
Speaker 2: If you made it this far, you'll love this next video. Check it out right here.
00:33:52
Speaker 4: And make sure you subscribe to Birdland Territory for more Orioles coverage like this multiple times a week.
