Divorce, Identity & Healing: A New Beginning for Women with Gwendoline Van Doosselaere

In-person participant 1: hi, everybody. I'm Michelle Harrell, your host for Beyond the Dose. Welcome back to another week. ⁓ This week, I'm very and to have Gwendolyn Van Dusseleer join us. Gwendolyn is a divorce coach. ⁓
Michelle Harrell: Hi everybody, I'm Michelle Harrell, your host for Beyond the Dose. Welcome back to another week. ⁓ This week, I'm very honored and excited to have Gwendolyn Fanducilari join us. Gwendolyn is a divorce coach and mentor and runs Artemis Coaching.
In-person participant 1: and mentor and runs Artemis coaching and
Michelle Harrell: And gosh, Gwendolyn and I met through one of my local networking groups here in the Portland metro area. And we met for coffee and we just discovered that we had so many things in common, ⁓ namely divorce, which I think is a story a lot of women. ⁓
In-person participant 1: Gosh, Gwendolyn and I met through one of my local networking groups here in the Portland metro area and we met for coffee and we just discovered that we had so many things in common, ⁓ namely divorce, which I think is a story a lot of women ⁓ share. And as we were chatting and I was getting to know Gwendolyn, I just thought, gosh, there's so many parallels between what we go through in a divorce and the transition and the
Michelle Harrell: share. And as we were chatting and I was getting to know Gwendolyn, I just thought, gosh, there's so many parallels between what we go through in a in a divorce and the transition and the all the things that the women and men go through during a divorce that are parallel to kind of a psychedelic experience and a psilocybin experience. And so I thought it would be great ⁓ to Gwendolyn on. I myself, as many of you know, if you've been tuning into my show and following me online, I myself, ⁓ my divorce was the catalyst for a lot of transition and transformation and change in my own life. It was what I like to call the
In-person participant 1: all the things that ⁓ women men go through during a divorce that are parallel to kind of a psychedelic experience and a psilocybin experience. And so I thought it would be great to have Gwendolyn on. I myself, as many of you know, if you've been tuning into my show and ⁓ following online, I myself, ⁓ my was the catalyst for a lot of... ⁓ transition and transformation and change in my own life. It was what I like to call the beginning of my healing process, which sounds odd, but it really was. ⁓ And I suspect that's true for a lot of people, ⁓ kind of breaks us open. And so, yeah, I wanted to have Gwendolyn on to talk us through what is divorce coaching and why would I want it and ⁓ how she can help others and to share that story. So Gwendolyn, welcome to the podcast.
Michelle Harrell: of my healing process, which sounds odd, but it really was. ⁓ And I suspect that's true for a lot of people, ⁓ kind of breaks us open. And so, yeah, I wanted to have Gwendolyn on to talk us through what is divorce coaching and why would I want it and ⁓ how she can help others and to share that story. So Gwendolyn, welcome to the podcast.
Gwendoline: Thank you so much for having me, Michelle. I'm ⁓ really honored to be here. And I also adored our conversation and our coffee talk. So it's exciting to get to do this in a different format with you.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I don't know if you want to how you want to kind of begin, maybe tell us a little bit about your story and how that led to you ⁓ becoming a divorce coach.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I don't know if you want to how you want to kind of begin, maybe tell us a little bit about your story and how that led to you becoming a divorce coach.
Gwendoline: Yeah, so my divorce story, like so many people, ⁓ after really years of deep contemplation and realizing something just didn't feel right in my marriage. And the thought of actually divorcing was devastating. So I kind of had it in the back burner for a long time. And I did everything I could get my hands on to remedy my relationship to what was the internal work that I needed to do. What could I do differently? And I mean, honestly, it was was years ⁓ in the making. And I would. say to my partner or my ex, I'd be like, I love you, but I don't like how you're treating me and I don't feel good with how you're treating me. And so I finally made the decision to divorce and when I was still very much, I still loved him. There's this misnomer that you divorce once you don't love somebody and on the contrary, just kind of, had to learn that like you can love somebody and that still isn't enough. It's not enough for a healthy relationship.
Michelle Harrell: Hmm. Hmm. Mm.
Gwendoline: And some of the pivotal moments in my divorce journey were like looking in the mirror and not recognizing myself anymore. And like I didn't even have, I didn't even have flush to my face. didn't have, I looked like I wasn't alive. I looked really gray. And I was, you know, was realizing that I was stuck in this mode of the survival mode and that my kids were only ever getting to know me in survival mode. They weren't at all getting to know me as an actual human, as the fullness of me. And so like for so many women I that our kids are usually a huge motivator for actually divorcing, for wanting them to get to know us and to have a different example of what a relationship and what a joyful home life can look like. And before, I think it's important to kind of note this because I know that so many people are stuck in divorce and decision and it's devastating. so, yeah, it's really paralyzing. And some of the things that I found myself thinking were, ⁓ maybe in my next lifetime I'll be happier.
In-person participant 1: Hmm.
Michelle Harrell: Hmm.
In-person participant 1: It's paralyzing, yeah.
Michelle Harrell: It's paralyzing, yeah.
Gwendoline: Maybe in my next lifetime I'll be in a happier marriage. And so, you know, just the pain or the thought of divorce was so catastrophic that I was willing to entomb myself in this unhappy life that I was currently in. And I had these rescue fantasies that somebody was going to come and pluck me out of my life, pluck my kids and I out of my life. And everything changed when I realized that like no one's coming. Like no one's coming to rescue me. The only person who's going to rescue me is me.
In-person participant 1: you
Gwendoline: And once I could accept that and really accept that, ⁓ you know, this is, I used to say this to myself, I just have to put on my big girl panties. Like this is really what this moment is calling for. And I realized that divorce is, yes, it's the end of a marriage, but what it really is is a super deep spiritual journey. And it's an invitation to become the fullest, most responsible, supremely sovereign version of yourself. ⁓ And to realize that like this lifetime is your responsibility and how you how you live and how you walk through this lifetime is yours. ⁓ And there's a lot of fear, you know, there's there's huge fear that accompanies divorce. But there's a difference between the fear of be careful with this knife. You're going to cut yourself. Don't step on the edge of a cliff.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Gwendoline: and the fear of becoming. I was, I luckily have had the experience of meeting the fear of becoming. So I realized the bigness of that fear was commensurate with the fear of metamorphosis and transformation. So it was so big because my potential to transform was so big.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: mean, I think there were so many things you said in there that I wanted to touch on, the joyful home, bringing joy back for me. know that was a big, you know, my ex and I were stuck in this like. I know constant bickering, constant scorecard keeping and bickering and like and I just at some point.
In-person participant 1: I mean, I think there were so many things you said in that I wanted to touch on, like the joyful home, bringing joy back. For me, I know that was a big, you know, my ex and I were stuck in this like, I don't know, constant bickering, constant scorecard keeping and bickering and like, ⁓ and I just, at some point,
Michelle Harrell: thought this is not a healthy model for my children, you know? And to your point, I also was the instigator for our divorce. And I think there's this misnomer that the one who wants the divorce, it's easy for them or it's, you know, an easy decision or whatever the case, you know, I think a lot of people have these assumptions, but honestly, I was devastated as well. And I think.
In-person participant 1: thought this is not a healthy model for my children, you know? And to your point, I also was the instigator for our divorce. And I think there's this misnomer that the one who wants the divorce, it's easy for them or it's, you know, an easy decision or whatever the case, you know, I think a lot of people have these assumptions, but honestly, I was devastated as well. And I think...
Michelle Harrell: If you have children, especially, think nobody gets married and wants to tear their family apart. And the thought of my kids having to go back and forth between their dad and I and not being or having to choose who to spend a holiday with. Like, I didn't want that. Right. None of us want that for our families. And so I think what you said is just wanted to reiterate that for the for the listeners, that anyone who's out there struggling with that decision. ⁓
In-person participant 1: If you have children, especially, think nobody gets married and wants to tear their family apart. And the thought of my kids having to go back and forth between their dad and I and not being, or having to choose who to spend a holiday with, like I didn't want that, right? None of us want that for our families. And so I think what you said is, just wanted to reiterate that for the listeners that anyone who's out there. struggling with that decision. ⁓ You know, at the end of the day, I thought I'd rather have my kids see healthy joy back, return to the home. And that might have to be in two separate homes than, you know, living through the day to day kind of survival and just like a loveless marriage, basically. Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: You know, at the end of the day, I thought I'd rather have my kids see healthy joy back, return to the home. And that might have to be in two separate homes than, you know, living through the day to day kind of survival and just like a loveless marriage, basically. Yeah.
Gwendoline: Yeah, and there's so much that we're going against, so many cultural scripts that we're going against in divorce, which is why it also feels really excruciatingly painful because you kind of realize like, oh my gosh, everything that I learned about how to be, how everything I ever thought about love, life, relationships, myself, like I thought if I behaved in these ways, life was supposed to be good, was supposed to be rewarded. And you just kind of realize like that playbook doesn't actually work.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Gwendoline: And so there's a deep sense of betrayal of like, ⁓ my gosh, I've been following the wrong rules this whole time. there's so much research that's coming, know, because we hear like an intact home is better. And ⁓ there's actually so much that speaks to how a home with conflict, even silent conflict is really devastating for kids. It's really devastating for us. ⁓ So I like it when the research catches up with everybody's lived experience.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's the same in all aspects of life. think anytime there's no purpose or.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's the same in all aspects of life. think anytime there's no purpose or, you know, foundation of love, even like in your day, in your job or in your career, how many people get up and go to a job that they hate just out of survival and to pay the bills, right? And, that eats at you after a while at your mental health, at your spirit, you know? And so just like anything, at some point you become so uncomfortable that you you're forced to make change, even if you're not ready for that.
Michelle Harrell: you know, foundation of love, even like in your day in your job or in your career. How many people get up and go to a job that they hate just out of survival and to pay the bills? Right. And but that eats at you after a while at your mental health, at your spirit, you know. And so just like anything, at some point you become so uncomfortable that you you're forced to make change, even if you're not ready for that change. Yeah, I mean, I know I was scared.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, I mean, I know I was scared. I was completely scared and panicked about being a single mom with a mortgage and you know, all of the things that the financial things that that represents as well, ⁓ which I'm sure a lot of a lot of men and women go through and I think the stat is like it takes 10 years or something to recover financially from a divorce.
Gwendoline: Yep.
Michelle Harrell: I was completely scared and panicked about being a single mom with a mortgage and, you know, all of the things that the financial things that that represents as well, ⁓ which I'm sure a lot of a lot of men and women go through. I think the stat is like it takes 10 years or something to recover financially from a divorce.
Gwendoline: Yeah, there's another, the two statistics that I like to put in contrast are that women initiate seven out of 10 of the divorces. So 70 % of divorces initiated by women. And yet they can anticipate to face ⁓ about a 40 % decrease in their standard of living. So the economic hit is real. ⁓ All that to say that we're still navigating the real world with real material needs.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: which is why divorce is more strategic than just, it's strategic and emotional.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, 100%. let's a little bit about that transition and what happens, what you see a lot of women, how they shift and change and grow during this process, because it is a huge, just like any life quake, I call them life quakes, you any big shift in your life ⁓ at first can be very destabilizing, a lot of fear, a lot of stress and worry involved. ⁓ But if you can lean into the... ⁓
In-person participant 1: Yeah, 100%. let's a little bit about that transition and what happens, what you see a lot of women, how they shift and change and grow during this process, because it is a huge, just like any life quake, I call them life quakes, you know, any big. shift in your life ⁓ at first can be very destabilizing, a lot of fear, a lot of stress and worry involved. ⁓ But if you can lean into finding the positives, lean into faith for those who have faith, the growth and the transition still carries you through. what do you see a lot of women kind of coming in with and then coming out of the other end with?
Michelle Harrell: lean into finding the positives, lean into faith for those who have faith, you know, the growth and the transition still carries you through. what do you see a lot of women kind of coming in with and then coming out of the other end with?
Gwendoline: Yeah, so the identity transformation is huge. obviously there's the external one of we're going from being kind of a wife and being partnered to now we're single, we're a single parent. that has a bunch of ramifications. But what I think is maybe most interesting and what I really love to be a witness of is how I see women transform internally. ⁓ And there are a number of big transition areas. And one is,
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: One is in how much space women allow themselves to take within themselves. There's so much that we're taught to accommodate, we're taught to kind of cede the space to the other person, especially the men. I speak more to hetero relationships than same sex. And so what...
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: What happens, and this becomes really important in negotiations, it's like you, if you're negotiating from a place of smallness within yourself, you're typically not advocating for what you actually really need to survive. So a big part of the work is, Working with women to take up the fullness of their beings within themselves and to see how they've been contorting or shape shifting. And this beautiful transition that happens is that women kind of stop apologizing for taking up less space or being like gnarled in the space that they take up. And then they also relearn to see the beauty of their characteristics without pathologizing it. Like we can see instead of seeing generosity as, you're a doormat. It's like, actually, no, this is a really beautiful gift. You know, the propensity for deep care and
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: isn't necessarily a boundary violation or co-dependence. It's just that these are amazing attributes and they're not, not everybody deserves access to them and that's something that we learn. ⁓ The ⁓ relationship to our rage and anger is a huge identity shift or a huge shift. So, know.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Gwendoline: We all know this, right? We have a really complicated relationship to anger and rage for all the reasons. We're not allowed to express it. And we're not allowed to say that we're mad if somebody hurts our feelings. We're not allowed to express the ongoing inequities that we face as women, the violence that we're confronted with.
Michelle Harrell: Yes.
In-person participant 1: Yes.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: And, but I find that a really critical part of the divorce journey is when women actually accept and acknowledge the anger that they feel. And they're like, this really pisses me off. oftentimes how I hear it is women are like, I'm sorry, I'm not usually so angry. And I'm like, you should be angry. this is an appropriate reaction and an appropriate emotion. ⁓
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: And so once they can step into that instead of continuing to kind of swallow all these years of having been dismissed or denigrated, it shifts because anger is a really catalyzing emotion in this transition specifically. ⁓
Michelle Harrell: Well, and I don't know about you, I find often in the work that I do with psilocybin clients, definitely, ⁓ you know, there's a lot of unmet rage and anger that women have that comes up in surfaces. But what I find often is underneath that is deep sadness and grief. So it's like you have to go through that. You got to go through the rage to get to the grief and the sadness so that you can release it. ⁓
In-person participant 1: Well, and I don't know about you, I find often in the work that I do with psilocybin clients, definitely, ⁓ there's a lot of unmet rage and anger that women have that comes up in surfaces, but what I find often is underneath that is deep sadness and grief. So it's like, have to go through that, you gotta go through the rage to get to the grief and the sadness so that you can release it. ⁓
Michelle Harrell: And I'm curious, do you find that as well, you know, as with your clients?
In-person participant 1: And I'm curious, do you find that as well, you know, as with your clients?
Gwendoline: I do, and what, you know, it was really interesting for me is that, ⁓ In my personal journey, was also, I do have still a very complicated relationship with anger. And sometimes that's also in contrast of having been with a really angry partner, because it's like you want to be the opposite of what that partner is. But what was happening for me is I would meditate or try to meditate with two young kids. And Kali, the Hindu goddess Kali, just started to appear in my meditation spaces.
Michelle Harrell: Hmm.
In-person participant 1: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: And it's like she was popping in and it was really, ⁓ honestly, was really shocking because I was like, I'm not, this is not my background. I don't know where she's coming from, but she kept popping up in my life. And when I realized, you know, what she signifies ⁓ and that she is the goddess of like using anger for transformation and a call for deep transformation, I was like, my psyche is going through something that my external self is maybe not wanting to connect to. And I actually find that that's ⁓ not an uncommon experience.
Michelle Harrell: you Mm.
Gwendoline: for women going through divorce. ⁓ it is grief and it is sadness, but grief and sadness aren't necessarily motivating emotions, so I find that anger comes and couples with it to move you to that next place.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think I mean, often when I work with couples or individuals that are, you know, coming in with some relationship stuff, ⁓ you know, the resentment that is built over years and years of, you know, unspoken boundaries.
In-person participant 1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think, I mean, often when I work with couples or individuals that are coming in with some relationship stuff, the resentment that is built over years and years of unspoken boundaries.
Michelle Harrell: ⁓ not taking accountability, you know, to your point, I think a lot of us as women were, you know, we are raised to please to bend and to, ⁓ yeah, you know, do everything for everybody else and often put our own our own needs and things to the side or, you know, we push those down. But the resentment still lives on like the resentment stays. I think women are.
In-person participant 1: ⁓ not taking accountability, know, to your point, I think a lot of us as women were, you know, we are raised to please, to bend and to, yeah, you know, do everything for everybody else and often put our own needs and things to the side or, you know, we push those down, but the resentment still lives on. Like the resentment stays. think women are
Michelle Harrell: I think we're, and that's where I think we also have to take accountability a little bit for our own not speaking up, not taking accountability for our own feelings and actually voicing them. ⁓
In-person participant 1: I think we're, you and that's where I think we also have to take accountability a little bit for our own, you know, not speaking up, not taking accountability for our own feelings and actually voicing them. ⁓ And then when it starts to happen, that's usually when, you know, trouble in the marriage. At some point, I think women get to an age where they're like, screw this. I'm like, I'm tired, right? Like I'm tired of being everything for everybody. And it's time for me to like start speaking what I need. But then that is not always
Gwendoline: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Michelle Harrell: And then when it starts to happen, that's usually when trouble in the marriage, at some point I think women get to an age where they're like, screw this. I'm tired of being everything for everybody and it's time for me to start speaking what I need, but then that is not always met with. ⁓
In-person participant 1: met with ⁓ open arms. Yeah, I mean, because if you haven't been doing that for the first 10 years of your marriage and then suddenly you start to do it, it's like, whoa, wait a second, right? I mean, that's...
Michelle Harrell: You know, open arms. Yeah. I mean, because if you haven't been doing that for the first 10 years of your marriage and then suddenly you start to do it, it's like, whoa, wait a second. Right. And I mean, that's and so many of us trauma bond when we're young. I don't I mean, I know I know I did. It's very clear. Hindsight is so clear. Right. Hindsight. So it's like you look back and you're like, ⁓ my gosh, it's so obvious why I married this person and why he was attracted to me. Right. And like both of us.
Gwendoline: one for next sentence.
In-person participant 1: And so many of us trauma bond when we're young. mean, I know I did. It's very clear. Hindsight is so clear, right? Hindsight's so, it's like you look back and you're like, ⁓ my gosh, it's so obvious why I married this person and why he was attracted to me, right? And like both of us were trauma bonding, but if you don't continue to grow in that together in the same direction, then yeah, it's.
Gwendoline: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Harrell: We're trauma bonding, but if you don't continue to grow in that together in the same direction, then yeah, it's.
Gwendoline: Yeah, this is kind of a later divorce journey identity shift. It's really hard to go through it at the beginning of divorce. It's something that comes after a couple of years of reflection. And I will say that one of the patterns that I see is that the person who initiates divorce, and that is also true for men, tends to be the person who over-functioned in their relationship. And so you can...
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Mm.
Gwendoline: And I'm not saying this with any judgment or trying to bring shame to it, but when you kind of break down that dynamic, one of the archetypes that's helpful for women to identify with is the archetype of the martyr. And it's like, yes, we're socialized to sacrifice ourselves for love in our relationships. there are lot of parallels with the over-functioner. So you're taking responsibility for yourself. You're taking responsibility for your partner's emotions, for everyone else's landscape and psychological landscape. And the divorce journey really requires you to know what's yours to control and what's not. so, energetically or emotionally, spiritually, it's like you've got to tuck yourself back in yourself. And you are responsible for just what's happening here. You're not responsible for this other person in the space between you and this other person. And so it's really hard to... It's a really hard thing to begin to learn and to just be like, well, I'm not going to over function for my ex. I'm not going to, they're responsible for their parenting. They're responsible for the logistics. Like maybe my kids are gonna, they're not gonna pick them up at school because they're gonna forget. And, you we wanna protect our kids, but our... If we continue to protect somebody from themselves, A, they never get an opportunity to grow and learn. And B, and this is really hard in the parenting journey, our children deserve to fully know who the other parent is. And this actually connects to another big piece of the identity shift is the motherhood journey. And I'm seeing more and more that's being talked about it. But.
Michelle Harrell: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: So many of my clients, when they come to me, they have really deep motherhood wounds. And part of it is, and again, I do work with clients who are going through more difficult scenarios. So there are elements of coercive control all the way up to verbal and emotional abuse. they've had to performatively. They've had to mother for the male gaze, for male comfort. They've been ridiculed for their instincts. They've been denigrated for it. They have these protective.
In-person participant 1: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: instincts that are like, something is not right, something is not safe here. And they're gaslit both within their marriages and also in therapy spaces or in our larger society. When their whole body is like, at minimum, what's happening here is really immature, but it can also be really unsafe. ⁓ so in divorce, like there's a lot of grief for moms to be able to ⁓ kind of acknowledge that their protective instinct was telling them that something wasn't okay for their kids. And, you
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: Mm-hmm
Gwendoline: the other side of that grief is that it can also be really affirming and they get to kind of really step into the fullness of themselves as moms. And it's a really beautiful transformation, a really important one.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, but also a very difficult one, right? think let's not, don't wanna, at least my own, know, gosh, because we separated, my ex and I separated in October of 2017. I didn't have my full, kind of like, I call it my eat, pray, love moment, kitchen floor breakdown moment ⁓ until like January of So, but it took that long for me to like.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, but also a very difficult one, right? think let's not, don't want to, at least my own, know, gosh, because we separated, my ex and I separated in October of 2017. I didn't have my full kind of like, I call it my eat, pray, moment, kitchen, kitchen floor breakdown moment ⁓ until like January of 2019. So, but it took that long for me to like,
Gwendoline: Mm.
Michelle Harrell: You know, I think that was the start of my healing phase when I had that that kind of big, big breakdown moment. And ⁓ but that was just the beginning of, you know, getting to where I am today and gosh, all the things I look back and I think, gosh, there's been so much growth, you know, since then. But it is a long.
In-person participant 1: I think that was the start of my healing phase when I had that kind of big breakdown moment. ⁓ But that was just the beginning of getting to where I am today and gosh, all the things. I look back and I think, gosh, there's been so much growth since then, but it is a long.
Michelle Harrell: journey for many and it is not linear. There's moments where you think you're doing great and then whoop, you're right back into kind of the grief and sadness or the anger. I'm curious, how do you manage ⁓ coaching clients through that and understanding and giving themselves grace, giving themselves kindness to stumble a little bit along the way?
In-person participant 1: journey for many and it is not linear. There's moments where you're think you're doing great and then you're right back into kind of the grief and sadness. So, or the anchor. I'm curious, like how do you manage, you know, coaching clients through that and understanding and giving themselves grace, giving themselves kindness to stumble a little bit along the way.
Gwendoline: Yeah. Yeah, think ⁓ visually a helpful way to both visualize the journey and also visualize our relationship to healing and trauma is to imagine a spiral. So you may be going around the circle, like you may be touching the same elements, but you're... you actually need to revisit them multiple times and through multiple iterations and growth stages because you know, we're not so many of us are like, all right, I'm going to schedule my healing. It's going to take, you know, six months and two days. Right. And and we're like, that's just not how it works. And when you open the door to healing your body, you know, there's so much wisdom that we have and there's a there's a lot of we do know how much we can actually take in and transform. And it comes it comes in and
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah.
Gwendoline: Bites, you know, bits and pieces. And so if you imagine the spiral, it's like, okay, maybe you're gonna first touch on the grief and the loss, and then the anger and the rage, and maybe, ⁓ my gosh, the fear. And you're gonna keep cycling through that, and yeah, it's, know, honestly, I don't think that it ever completely ends. I think it changes shape. ⁓ Because one of the big lessons of divorce is to realize the depth of the transformation and the depth of all that you're looking into yourself and realizing like so much of what you're being confronted with goes all the way back to your childhood, if not before. And it's super deep work. It's super deep work. And I don't know. Go ahead. Yeah, I'm just figuring.
Michelle Harrell: 100%. Yeah. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: 100%, yeah.
Michelle Harrell: If you choose to do it, right? think not everybody chooses. Yeah, I think some people want to just skip through it. They go right back to dating. They repartner up and they relive that same trauma dance. I've seen that happen, too. So I don't know about you, but, know, friends and things, you know. But I think it can be a beautiful catalyst for growth and change if you choose to really lean into that.
In-person participant 1: If you choose to do it, right? I think not everybody chooses. Yeah, I think some people want to just skip through it. They go right back to dating. They repartner up and they relive that same trauma dance. I've seen that happen too. So I don't know about you, know, friends and things, you know, but I think it can be a beautiful catalyst for growth and change if you choose to really lean into that.
Gwendoline: Thank Yeah, that's not to say it's, know, growth and change is not easy and it's not, it definitely comes with stumbling blocks and it's really, it's actually really painful. ⁓ And I feel like, you know, I feel like one of the learning curves or growth edges of divorce is realizing that like you're probably gonna live the pain and the joy simultaneously forever. And, you know, instead what you're able to do is to really appreciate the moments of joy.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Gwendoline: And ⁓ it's one of the ways, like for people who are just contemplated at beginning of the divorce journey, one of the ways that I describe it, because it's so terrifying, right? And I'm like, you are going to come out such a bad-ass version of yourself. And when you look at the divorce community and you look at the people who are divorced, what you find are people who have lived through
Michelle Harrell: Hmm.
Gwendoline: know, great emotional hardship, hardship across all sorts of fronts. But what you find are people who are so ⁓ grateful for the moments of joy, for the glimmers, for the gifts of life. And that's true of people who've gone through great hardship is like, they don't take those moments for granted because they know that that's, it's now, that joy is right now. And there's gonna be pain, there's gonna be difficulty, but that joy is,
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Gwendoline: The joy is what carries you through and you can't belittle it.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, no. And you're right. That is what carries you through. And I think if you have children, too, it almost complicates the growth or because we're still focused. I don't know about you, but after my divorce, my main focus was my kids. Like I wanted to make sure my children. Emotionally, we're supported through this. knew that they were having their own pain and their own grief around the, you The loss of their family unit, you know, ⁓ they have their own anger.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, no. And you're right, that is what carries you through. And I think if you have children too, it almost complicates the growth or because we're still focused, I don't know about you, but after my divorce, my main focus was my kids. Like I wanted to make sure my children emotionally were supported through this. I knew that they were having their own pain and their own grief around the, you the loss of their family unit, they have their own anger that often doesn't surface until years later, ⁓ least in my case. But yeah, I think as women, we're still often pulled to really focus on them and maybe shift and kind of put our stuff aside for a little bit. Do you see that pattern with women that they kind of...
Michelle Harrell: that often doesn't surface until years later, ⁓ at least in my case. yeah, I think as women, we're still often pulled to really focus on them and maybe shift and kind of put our stuff aside for a little bit. Do you see that pattern with women that they kind of?
Gwendoline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Harrell: pause on their own growth and their own transformation and pick it back up a couple years down the road after they get their kids through the transition.
In-person participant 1: pause on their own growth and their own transformation and pick it back up a couple years down the road after they get their kids through the transition.
Gwendoline: Yeah, I think there's the, you're kind of bringing up so many different things. One is like just the very real practical stuff of like, my God, my kids need to be fed, watered, bathed. You know, they need to go through life, which can feel really daunting. It's a lot. It's a lot to manage. And ⁓ transition days are tough and like they're gonna, they they live the emotion of divorce. You know, I'm years into mine and
In-person participant 1: Yeah. Survival, yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Survival.
Gwendoline: Transition days just remain tough. It's like they're navigating the emotional landscape of divorce every every transition period So you got to have a big space for them. But one of the one of the really interesting reframes that I've been Navigating with clients is understanding is really understanding the timeline of trauma and
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: I say that because divorce is traumatic. It's the second most traumatic thing that we go through in adulthood. And again, so many of us are living through deep emotional scars and having been in survival mode for so long. the imprint of trauma is it actually takes years to deescalate your body through it. And so it doesn't, there's the first layer of kind of curb, of.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: beginning the de-escalation of that trauma maybe when you separate. But your body doesn't really begin to get the cues of safety until ⁓ you're no longer in fight mode. So for some people, it's not until the divorce decree is signed, which can be years after separation. And what I found is that, ⁓ what the research is suggesting is that it takes about four years for us, for our bodies to come out of just the heightened state of adrenaline and cortisone from a trauma state. So when you think about that transition period with your kids and you're like, I have clients who say to me, I just want to be on my phone. I just need to tune out. I just need to do this. And what that says to me is it's not like they're failing at parenthood. It's just that they are still. ⁓ They're still trying to soothe their nervous system through what was utter chaos. And one of the things we also underestimate with divorce is the cognitive load and the impact of trauma on our cognition and how people talk about how like, just can't think straight anymore. I can't show up at my job. It's hard to learn these new skills. ⁓ there's a huge cognitive. wounding that happens after a traumatic event. And so I do find that women, they judge themselves, they feel like they're not present with their kids, and sometimes reframing that to being like, no, you still need to heal, and you can just couple that relationship a little bit differently, give yourself more compassion and grace. And I think understanding the physiological aspect can help. ⁓ And what's true too is that a lot of people take ⁓ mental health leaves after divorce. They'll take a leave of absence. I'm saying that just to kind of create the juxtaposition of how intense. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Try to normalize it. Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: try to normalize it. Yeah. Yeah. And I wish I would have thought, I mean, I actually got laid off the same week that my ex-husband moved out, which was not ⁓ not planned and very shocking traumatic. ⁓ But yeah, I think that's such a good because it is a grieving process just like anything else. Like if your if your spouse died, you would take time off work. ⁓ And I think we don't think about it that way. We feel, you know, it's like, ⁓
In-person participant 1: I wish I would have thought, I mean, I actually got laid off the same week that my ex-husband moved out, which was not, not planned and very shocking and traumatic. ⁓ but yeah, I think such a good, because it is a grieving process, just like anything else. Like if your, if your spouse died, you would take time off work. ⁓ and I think we don't think about it that way. We feel, you know, it's like, ⁓ I don't know.
Gwendoline: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: I don't know what's the rate now 60, 65 % of marriages into divorce. I don't know. But ⁓ it's become so kind of normalized divorce, but yet we still have so much learning to do about that process and that healing process. And yeah, I love I love the suggestion of taking some leave of absence to.
In-person participant 1: What's the rate now? 60, 65 % of marriages into divorce. I don't know, but ⁓ it's become so kind of normalized divorce, but yet we still have so much learning to do about that process and that healing process. yeah, I love, I love the suggestion of taking some leave of absence to, to give your time to grieve and to heal and figure out.
Michelle Harrell: to give your time to grieve and to heal and figure out who you are. Let's talk about identity shift, because I think that's huge, right, for anybody going through a divorce, men or women, but we're specifically talking about women today. mean, gosh, for me, was like complete shedding and then a rebuilding of who do I want to be? Who am I without my, you know, not being a mother, not being a wife?
In-person participant 1: who you are. Let's talk about identity shift, because I think that's huge, right? For anybody going through a divorce, men or women, but we're specifically talking about women today. I mean, gosh, for me, was like complete shedding and then a rebuilding of who do I want to be? Who am I without my, you know, not being a mother, not being a wife.
Gwendoline: Yeah. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: ⁓ I got laid off as I mentioned. for me, I'd been, I was with Nike for 16 years. They had moved us here from Europe where I had primarily worked for them for 13 of those 16 were in Europe. And then all of a sudden, you know, I lost my marriage and my job, which after 16 years and at Nike, the culture is strong. So I really felt lost. Like, ⁓ my God, who am I anymore? Like I'm not any, none of the things that I had planned for my life.
Michelle Harrell: I got laid off, as I mentioned. for me, I'd been I was with Nike for 16 years. They had moved us here from Europe where I had primarily worked for them for 13 of those 16 were in Europe. And and then all of a sudden, you know, I lost my marriage and my job, which after 16 years and at Nike, the culture is strong. So I really felt lost, like, oh, my God, who who am I anymore? Like, I'm not any none of the things that I had planned for my life.
Gwendoline: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: you know, had panned out. So I was like, holy crap, everything that I thought I was is now stripped from me. Where do I go from here? And that is very scary. That is that is a very disorienting kind of space to be in.
In-person participant 1: you know, had panned out. So I was like, holy crap, everything that I thought I was is now stripped from me. Where do I go from here? And that is very scary. That is, that is a very disorienting kind of space to be in.
Gwendoline: It's really huge, the overwhelming sentiment that I get. I experienced it, I still experience it at times and I hear from my clients is that they feel abandoned by God. They feel like, don't you love me? Why are you putting me through so much trial and tribulation and consistently? Your experience of losing your job immediately after losing your marriage is my experience too. It's so many other women's experiences. So you've got these two huge traumas that are coupled together.
Michelle Harrell: Mm. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Gwendoline: When we face financial insecurity, it's the deepest abandonment wound. It's a first shocker wound. How can I be safe in this world? How can I make my children safe in this world? And so it's kind of why I speak about divorce as a spiritual thing, because you feel abandoned by the very God who's actually orchestrating your transformation. Yeah, and so it's like how... ⁓
In-person participant 1: Amen. Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Amen. Yeah.
Gwendoline: how do I trust? And that ends up being the learning curve is like, how do I trust? yeah, what is the, ⁓ what am I doing?
In-person participant 1: And trust in yourself, right? I think that so many of us lose trust in ourselves because we made these decisions that led up to this point, right? We chose that partner, we chose that career, we chose maybe the divorce and then the guilt, I think too, that comes along if you have children. I think that's even heavier, especially, I don't know if men feel that as strongly as women.
Michelle Harrell: And trust in yourself, right? I think that so many of us lose trust in ourselves because we made these decisions that led up to this point, right? We chose that partner, we chose that career, we chose maybe the divorce and then the guilt, I think too, that comes along if you have children. ⁓ I think that's even heavier, especially, I don't know if men feel that as strongly as women.
Gwendoline: Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: But gosh, I had so much guilt about breaking up my family and causing my children pain. I myself am a child of divorce, but I was like two when my parents divorced. So don't really remember my dad ever being in the home. But I didn't, you know, I didn't want to cause that same pain for my kids. That was the last thing I wanted to do. And so yeah, yeah, I don't know. There's just so much, so much with it, right? Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: But gosh, I had so much guilt about breaking up my family and causing my children pain. I myself am a child of divorce, but I was like two when my parents divorced. So don't really remember my dad ever being in the home. ⁓ But I didn't, you know, I didn't want to cause that same pain for my kids. That was the last thing I wanted to do. And so.
Gwendoline: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, yeah, I know there's just so much so much with it, right? Yeah.
Gwendoline: Yeah, I... One of the questions I have for myself in terms of parenting is, know, how do, what is, what do I want to tell my kids about life? What do I want to be teaching them having, you know, having seen and witnessed this midlife transformation and kind of going, the statistic is actually about 50 % of marriages end up in divorce. But what that roughly means is that a third of the adult population in the U.S. has experienced divorce. So it is a very common thing. It's a common midlife transition.
In-person participant 1: Okay
Michelle Harrell: Okay.
Gwendoline: ⁓ And I asked myself, you I grew, we, so many of us in the US grow up with this idea of like, what you do on school, you do, you get your degree, you get a good job, you find the love of your life, you get a house, you know, 2.5 cars, kids, whatever, live in suburbia, and then you have enough to retire and buy a boat, right? Like that's, you know, but I'm exaggerating, but like, that's the, that's, it's this linear curve up towards amazingness. And then,
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, and it's how we define success, right? It is how we define success. So when that is stripped, it's like, ⁓ my gosh, yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, and it's how we define success, right? It is how we define success. So when that is stripped, it's like, ⁓ my gosh, yeah.
Gwendoline: and it's hard to find. Yeah, and I find myself both like how deeply embedded that is in me and when I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, I have to interrupt this in my, before I say something to my kids, I have to interrupt it in myself and be like, this is actually not what I wanna tell them. And what I'm trying to speak to them to, I try to tell them that life is a bunch of valleys and peaks and there gonna be some amazing experiences and there's also gonna be some really hard stuff and that's just true. And what, I'm like what?
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: I try to tell them is what's really important in life is who you surround yourself with and the community and the people that you bring in because you know we're we're we're gonna be challenged and things are not gonna go our way and what really makes you rich is ⁓ is the love, mean, I'm not, yeah, it's kind of trite what I'm saying, but what really makes you rich in life is the support in the community and the stuff, the people around you. And that's true in divorce too. Like so much of what we have to do is to reshape our communities and change what we define as meaningful for ourselves. And ⁓ so it's big work.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: And so let's talk a little bit about like your coaching services and what that looks like. I know you also have ⁓ like a divorce school and community that you lead women through. And I think that's so amazing. And it's funny, since I met you, I met two more divorce coaches. before I met, yeah, it's one of those things where like, know,
Michelle Harrell: And so let's talk a little bit about like your coaching services and what that looks like. I know you also have ⁓ like a divorce school and community that you lead women through. And I think that's so amazing. And it's funny, since I met you, I've met two more divorce coaches. before I met, yeah, it's one of those things where like, know.
Gwendoline: Yeah. I'll be back soon.
In-person participant 1: God or the universe shows you something and then you see it over and over again. Because it was not anything I knew that existed until I met you and now I'm like, ⁓ there's more people out there doing this. So I think ⁓ it's just a brilliant business concept and I think a lot of us could use that help and support as you navigate it. So tell us a little bit about how you work with clients, what the process looks like, that kind of thing.
Michelle Harrell: God or the universe shows you something and then yeah, you see it over and over again. Because it was not anything I knew that existed until I met you and now I've been like, ⁓ there's more of you, more people out there doing this. So I think ⁓ it's just a brilliant business concept. And I think a lot of us could use that help and support as you navigate it. So tell us a little bit about how you work with clients, what the process looks like, that kind of thing.
Gwendoline: Yeah, so I work with clients. My foundation is working with clients one-on-one, and I do work exclusively with women. I tend to work with moms. And what that looks like is meeting at a regular cadence, usually every two to three weeks is the, that's the pace of divorce. It just doesn't go much faster. And we talk about and address everything that divorce touches. So sometimes it's,
Michelle Harrell: Yeah.
Gwendoline: Really looking at how to work with a lawyer, understanding legal advice, interpret, know, interpreting it, knowing what, what questions to elevate to your lawyer, understanding the process, you know, the, the like logistical stuff of putting together a parenting plan, looking at finances and assets, and then also getting a sense of the other professionals that you need to bring in. So we often need a, you know, so many people are scared of spending money in divorce and I understand why, but overwhelmingly what I find is that
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: people who think that they're gonna save on the $100 or the $400 an hour consultation with the lawyer do not necessarily do better by the end of their divorce. ⁓ Because again, it is strategic and you are worth the investment. ⁓ We underestimate...
In-person participant 1: All right.
Michelle Harrell: Right.
Gwendoline: We think that the legal system is going to bring us justice and that it's going to understand our situation. ⁓ And that's just not how it actually works. You have to advocate for yourself and you have to understand it inside out. ⁓ So that's the type of support that I offer. then I'm also, I. understand what people are going through emotionally. mean, both because I've seen it play. I see the pattern of it now. And one of the big things that I do going back to the identity conversation is feel through like, OK, it doesn't look like you really want to address this right now. You keep stepping away from the financial conversations or, you know, every time we talk about your kids, it comes with a lot of grief and sadness ⁓ or fear. Like sometimes the presence of fear and being scared ⁓ is really palpable. And it's like, how do we Let's, I'm not a therapist, so we're not excavating it deeply, but we're talking about in the way of how is this either helping or inhibiting your divorce decision. Yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah. Well, in fear, mean, anytime we make decisions in a fear based space, right? That's not where you want to be when making big, tough life decisions. And I think just knowing the questions to ask, because we don't know what we don't know. And if you're so if you don't know what you don't know, you've never done this before. You never had to, you know, traverse a divorce before, hopefully. ⁓ And
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Well, in fear, mean, anytime we make decisions in a fear based space, right, that's not where you want to be when making big, tough life decisions. And I think just knowing the questions to ask, because we don't know what we don't know. And if you're so if you don't know what you don't know, you've never done this before. You never had to, you know.
Gwendoline: Yep.
Michelle Harrell: traverse a divorce before, hopefully, ⁓ and you're stuck in anger and grief and sadness and fear, it's like, it feels so overwhelming and you don't even know where to begin. So that's why I think having somebody like you to kind of come along and hold the hands of women and like, okay, let me be your voice. Let me tell you what questions you need to ask so that you don't have to think about it because I think that is to your point, like so many women are like,
In-person participant 1: you're stuck in anger and grief and sadness and fear, it's like, it feels so overwhelming and you don't even know where to begin. So that's why I think having somebody like you to kind of come along and hold the hands of women like, okay, let me be your voice. Let me tell you what questions you need to ask so that you don't have to think about it. Because I think that is to your point. Like so many women are like, I can't think straight. don't, you know, everything feels overwhelming. ⁓
Michelle Harrell: I can't think straight. don't, know, everything feels overwhelming. ⁓ And I think that that's that's very valid. And that's why some somebody like you is such a valuable service, I think.
In-person participant 1: And I think that that's very valid and that's why somebody like you is such a valuable service, I think.
Gwendoline: Yeah, and tied to that, it's a conversation that ⁓ I have with divorce professionals fairly frequently is, you know, like financial experts or lawyers. or parenting specialists is who we are in the divorce process, like who we are today in the divorce process, ⁓ is not, we don't actually, we don't often really understand ⁓ what our are actually gonna be by the time the divorce is final, ⁓ who we're gonna be in two to three years. ⁓ And ⁓ making really long view decisions today when you're in a state of fear or a state of panic. ⁓ or like one of the really common things that I see women do is because they're just like, just want to be safe and I want my kids to be safe and I will be with my kids 24 seven and I am going to have them all the time and I want, and they're in such this protective stance and it's completely understandable but there is a time when
Michelle Harrell: Hmm. you
Gwendoline: that's gonna become really heavy. It becomes really heavy to be the prominent, dominant single parent. And it's like, well, you actually deserve some balance in your life. you, I understand today you may wanna push for like 80 % parenting time with your kid, but.
Michelle Harrell: Mm.
Gwendoline: you're gonna need to make a living. You probably are going to want some time to yourself because it's really intensive. You might, even though it feels crazy today, you might actually want to date again. So to make a decision for you two to three years down the road to future cast, and we're horribly bad at future casting as humans. These are some of the things that actually, know, ⁓ divorced people two to three years down the road wish that they had made these decisions differently. They wish that they had carved out more time for themselves, gotten more childcare support from their ex or from the community. ⁓ They wish that they had advocated for the money that they actually need. So those are some of the things. ⁓
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, and even thinking further down, you know, when we divorced, our kids were, when we separated, gosh, how old were they? I don't even, I can't do math. But they were young. Let's say they were, you know, middle school and elementary age. you know, fast forward, they're both in college now.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, and even thinking further down, like, you know, when when we divorced, our kids were set when we separated. ⁓ Gosh, how old were they? I don't even I can't do math, but they were they were young. Let's say they were, you know, middle school and elementary age. And, ⁓ you know, fast forward, they're both in college now.
Gwendoline: Why like that? Okay.
In-person participant 1: We didn't ever talk about college in the, like as far as the finances and how that would be paid for. Like that wasn't even in my radar at that point. Like I wasn't thinking that far down the line as far as like negotiating the financial stuff. And so that became an issue when my oldest was ready to go off to college. And then it was like, ⁓ wait, we didn't talk about how we're paying for college and what you're paying versus what I'm paying. And it became an issue. became.
Michelle Harrell: We didn't ever talk about college as far as the finances and. how that would be paid for, or like that wasn't even in my radar at that point. Like I wasn't thinking that far down the line as far as like negotiating the financial stuff. And so that became an issue when my oldest was ready to go off to college. And then it was like, ⁓ wait, we didn't talk about how we're paying for college and what you're paying versus what I'm paying. And it became an issue. It became a sticky point. So. ⁓
Gwendoline: Yeah.
In-person participant 1: a sticky point. ⁓ you know, that's something that I learned is like, dang, I should have we should have, you know, I was thinking until they're 18 child support and you know, all the financial stuff where I had 18 in my head, wasn't thinking about beyond that. And so, you know, just stuff like that, I wish I would have known to think about and having a coach maybe would have helped me.
Michelle Harrell: You know, that's something that I learned is like, dang, I should have. We should have. You know, I was thinking until they're 18 child support and, know, all the financial stuff where I had 18 in my head. Wasn't thinking about beyond that. And so, you know, just stuff like that, I wish I would have known to think about and having a coach maybe would have helped me.
Gwendoline: Yeah. Yeah, or at least anticipate the conversation and then understand the legal constraints of like, can you actually write this in a parenting plan or not?
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: I think not leave things on the table. And that's part of what the Divorce School for Women, the online community that I'm currently creating is, that's the long goal is like divorce, the legal part of divorce is only about 20 % of the actual divorce process. Like so much of it is continuing to learn communication skills with your ex, understanding what are you gonna do when you want your kid to play soccer and they don't and what do you do? like so many women they feel they need to now they're they're responsible for car and hope me home maintenance and all these things that have been you know historically stereotypically taken that were owned by their partner and they feel really stupid and it's like how how I want to create and I'm in the process of creating a community where like none there's there are no stupid questions and we just understand that this is a really long process it's a really deep process and it is so much better in community
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, yeah, a hundred percent. I would have loved to have other women to talk to that were going through something similar during mine. You know, it would have been if nothing else, just for the healing part of it, you know, let alone maybe advice or tips or things you haven't thought of, but just to have that community of women that are feeling similar things as you at the same time as you're going through it, I think is incredibly, incredibly supportive.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Well, yeah, 100 percent. I would have loved to have other women to talk to that were going through something similar during mine. You know, it would have been if nothing else, just for the healing part of it, you know, let alone maybe advice or tips or things you haven't thought of. But just to have that community of women that are feeling similar things as you at the same time as you're going through it, I think is incredibly, incredibly supportive.
Gwendoline: Yeah, really takes the, you know, we live divorce and so many of these things is like this individual failure. And it really takes it out of the individual experience and kind of creates this collective pattern and script. And you're like, this happens to so many other people and I'm not crazy and I'm not stupid. And there is a way through and I...
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: can kind of, I don't have to live this so emotionally close and with so much volatility.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, yeah. I'm do you often like do you help women find these resources to do you have like a network of, you know, divorce attorneys and therapists? And ⁓ I don't know what else, but yeah.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, yeah. I'm do you often like, you help women find these resources to do you have like a network of, you know, divorce attorneys and therapists and ⁓ I don't know what else but yeah.
Gwendoline: Yeah. So I'm actually, I'm glad you mentioned that, because I'm actually in the process of co-creating ⁓ what we're calling the Portland Divorce Directory. yeah, so a lot of us have our own referral list of people that we've met, people that we recommend. But what is really missing from the divorce world is kind of the integrated view of all of the professionals and services that you need. Everything from the right therapeutic support, so like,
Michelle Harrell: Mm. ⁓ that's awesome.
In-person participant 1: That's awesome.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gwendoline: for so many people who are going through coercive control. You need somebody who's informed, domestic violence informed or at minimum trauma informed. So it really matters who you surround yourself with. You often need a real estate professional. You definitely need a financial professional. And those concentric and oftentimes it's just like, you don't even realize the total universe of people that you need. And same for the professional network, know, divorce professionals. It's all these databases or they live in this independent lawyer
Michelle Harrell: Hmm.
Gwendoline: referral system or maybe there's a real estate listing, but to get them synergized in a way that both benefits the professional community and the individual community doesn't yet exist. So ⁓ in the process of pulling that together.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm.
In-person participant 1: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. Yeah, I haven't seen that exist. And I think that is brilliant. And, I think we're starting to see that in others like in the medical, you know, in our medical care, you're starting to see a more holistic approach to that too. And like treating the person as a whole, not just, you know, the physical ailments, but also what's going on mentally and spiritually and all the things kind of looking holistically. And and I think to do that.
In-person participant 1: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen that exist. And I think that is brilliant. And, I think we're starting to see that in others, like in the medical, you know, in our medical care, you're starting to see a more holistic approach to that too. And like treating the person as a whole, not just, you know, the physical ailments, but also what's going on mentally and spiritually and all the things kind of looking holistically. And, and I think to do that.
Gwendoline: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Harrell: through divorce would be amazing as well to have that kind of community and place where you could go and kind of pick and choose the pieces that are applicable. But yeah, that I have not seen that. So that is a brilliant idea. think, yeah.
In-person participant 1: through divorce would be amazing as well to have that kind of community and place where you could go and kind of pick and choose the pieces that ⁓ are applicable. But yeah, that I have not seen that. So that is a brilliant idea. think. Yeah. Yeah.
Gwendoline: Thanks. Yeah. really ⁓ I'll just it with, you ⁓ one of biggest takeaways that I had after getting through divorce and that I continue to see is that it's such an underserved. ⁓ It's such an underserved experience. We just do not have anywhere near the amount of support, understanding wherewithal policies to tackle this huge transformative and traumatic life experience. So I am looking to change that.
Michelle Harrell: Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, amazing. So where can people find you if they want to, you know, utilize your services or talk with you and figure out what if if this is the right fit?
In-person participant 1: Yeah, amazing. So where can people find you if they want to, you know, utilize your services or talk with you and figure out what if this is the right fit?
Gwendoline: Yeah, so currently they can go to my website, which is Artemis, the Greek goddess. She's the goddess of children and women and of the wilderness. ⁓ So it is A-R-T-E-M-I-S, divorcecoaching.com. And I'm also on Instagram, LinkedIn, under the same name. So you can find me online and book a session with me or send me a message. ⁓ I love hearing from people.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah, and we'll be sure to include all your information, too, in the notes and everything. So, well, Gwendolyn, gosh, I think this might be the great way to end is thinking about what changes for women when they stop fighting the divorce process and learn to accept that this is where they're at.
In-person participant 1: Yeah, and we'll be sure to include all your information too in the notes and everything. So, ⁓ well, Gwendolyn, ⁓ I think this might be the great way to end is about what changes for when they stop fighting the divorce process and learn to accept that this is where they're at, and then they really can lean into their next chapter. I'm curious how you see that happen for women.
Gwendoline: Hmm.
Michelle Harrell: and then they, you know, really can lean into their next chapter. I'm curious what you how you see that happen for women.
Gwendoline: The vision that's coming forward is a breaking open. It's kind like this beautiful image of being able to kind of break open at the heart space. And it's not necessarily tears and grief that's coming out. It's this beautiful bouquet of flowers. And it's all of these ways in which they, all of these beautiful things that they've kind of forgotten about themselves or haven't accepted or haven't wanted to express and that they can now hold in the center of their being.
Michelle Harrell: Mm. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. So many I see so many parallels with psilocybin work. And I mean, because it's a healing process. That's all healing. Right. So thank you so much. ⁓ This has been a great conversation. I've enjoyed getting to know you and your work. And like I said, I think this is a big gap in the market that I think you're helping to fill. So thank you for that. ⁓
In-person participant 1: Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, I see so many parallels with psilocybin work and I mean, because it's a healing process, that's all healing, right? So thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I've enjoyed getting to know you and your work. And like I said, I think this is a big gap in the market that I think you're helping to fill. So thank you for that.
Gwendoline: you, Mr.
In-person participant 1: ⁓ Yeah, and thank you to everyone who tuned in to another episode of Beyond the Dose. I am Michelle Harrell and we'll be back again next week with another episode. Thank you for listening.
Gwendoline: Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Harrell: Yeah. And thank you to everyone who tuned in to another episode of Beyond the Dose. I am Michelle Harrell and we'll be back again next week with another episode. Thank you for listening.