Wim:
00:00:00
Lead time is the duration it takes from the moment a client raises a
Wim:
00:00:05
request to its resolution or completion.
Wim:
00:00:07
So in an MSP, it could be when they submit a ticket request, a help desk,
Wim:
00:00:12
or change request, or when they approve that project, to the time it's done done.
Wim:
00:00:16
An example in manufacturing is you could say if you're a custom
Wim:
00:00:19
furniture company, from the time a customer says, hey, I want this, the
Wim:
00:00:24
sofa, to the time it's delivered.
Wim:
00:00:25
And it can get really long, if you look at going manufacturing planes,
Wim:
00:00:29
that could be many months or years, to get that through the entire process.
Steve:
00:00:33
I don't even think about things like manufacturing
Steve:
00:00:36
planes or aircraft carriers.
Steve:
00:00:38
Like, I can't even fathom the process for that because it's just too big for me.
Steve:
00:00:43
So, this one seems relatively simple enough, but I'll ask, how do you
Steve:
00:00:48
calculate the lead time metric?
Wim:
00:00:52
it's a running clock, so just when did we start it, the date and time, and
Wim:
00:00:55
when was it finished, date and time.
Steve:
00:00:57
Easy enough.
Steve:
00:00:58
Now, is this something that we should be looking at, every day?
Wim:
00:01:02
No, I don't think this would be daily, this would probably be a monthly.
Wim:
00:01:05
or annual kind of thing, depending on whether it's a
Wim:
00:01:07
project or help desk or change.
Wim:
00:01:09
looking at trends, yeah, it wouldn't be every day.
Steve:
00:01:12
Who's responsible for monitoring and actioning this KPI?
Wim:
00:01:17
Be your operations manager or your service manager.
Steve:
00:01:20
can you share an example of how this lead time KPI has
Steve:
00:01:24
helped your organization make a strategic change or decision?
Wim:
00:01:29
Or we're, I guess one example is our, just our sales process actually
Wim:
00:01:33
is, historically, it was me doing the sales, and it could take me, meet with a
Wim:
00:01:37
client, and it could take a while to get the quote put together and get it out.
Wim:
00:01:40
and...
Wim:
00:01:41
We'd handed off and it took a while, but we put a lot of work into standardizing
Wim:
00:01:44
our pricing and our packaging, standardizing discovery projects and just
Wim:
00:01:49
calculators and pricing tools and stuff.
Wim:
00:01:52
So now we can turn that around in a day, in 24 hours, we can
Wim:
00:01:55
get a proposal out to a client.
Wim:
00:01:57
That's huge on win rates and response times and everything there.
Wim:
00:02:00
that's made that so much more efficient.
Wim:
00:02:01
We saved the time there and just a much better client experience.
Wim:
00:02:04
And same with the projects and the onboarding.
Wim:
00:02:06
Standardizing that, having multiple people able to deal with that has
Wim:
00:02:10
really brought down those lead times.
Wim:
00:02:11
so automation, SOPs, cross training the team.
Wim:
00:02:14
That's all helped in the sales process, onboarding, and other areas.
Steve:
00:02:18
what kind of actions should MSPs be taking based on the metric?
Wim:
00:02:23
Yep.
Wim:
00:02:23
Starts with obviously monitoring and measuring it, because you can't improve
Wim:
00:02:26
what you don't monitor and measure.
Wim:
00:02:27
but I would break down the steps in that process, so whether it's
Wim:
00:02:30
a sales process, or maybe the marketing campaigns are taking a
Wim:
00:02:33
while to get approved and launched.
Wim:
00:02:35
or it could be migrations, or just a lot of places, but break
Wim:
00:02:38
down the steps, so we can see.
Wim:
00:02:39
What, what is waste in this value stream?
Wim:
00:02:42
Because ultimately this is, we're providing value to, to the customer.
Wim:
00:02:45
What do they not see as waste?
Wim:
00:02:46
Or what do they not see as value?
Wim:
00:02:47
Cut that out.
Wim:
00:02:48
And then where's the bottlenecks?
Wim:
00:02:50
So how can we improve that flow?
Wim:
00:02:51
The vari, or there might be variability that sometimes it
Wim:
00:02:53
takes, longer than other times.
Wim:
00:02:54
Or why is that?
Wim:
00:02:55
Can we make it predictable?
Wim:
00:02:56
could be working with suppliers, better training, better tools,
Wim:
00:03:00
better SOPs or templates perhaps.
Wim:
00:03:02
so people aren't having to think every time and do it from scratch.
Wim:
00:03:05
Reduce the brain requirement and, make it easier to jump into for anybody
Wim:
00:03:08
to jump into and keep it going.
Wim:
00:03:09
Like some of these things we don't do often, like onboarding clients.
Wim:
00:03:12
Like if you only do three a year, you're not going to be very efficient.
Wim:
00:03:15
It's going to take a while.
Wim:
00:03:16
so we need processes, tools that we can jump into it.
Wim:
00:03:19
with a quick lead time, short lead time, I should say.
Steve:
00:03:21
what are some of the misconceptions or mistakes that MSPs will make
Steve:
00:03:25
when getting started with lead time?
Wim:
00:03:28
I think they might confuse it with the time spent on it.
Wim:
00:03:30
They're like, okay, this ticket we put an hour on it, so the lead time was an hour.
Wim:
00:03:34
or I'd say they're giving an estimate to a client, and they're like, client asks, how
Wim:
00:03:37
long is it going to take to get this done?
Wim:
00:03:39
And, MSP will say, well, it's, a 20 hour project.
Wim:
00:03:41
So the client is assuming it's going to be done pretty quick.
Wim:
00:03:44
but the real question is, the client wants to know is, maybe not something
Wim:
00:03:46
about how much time is going into it.
Wim:
00:03:48
They want to know cost, but like when is it actually going to be done, which
Wim:
00:03:51
could be like months later because the MSP has got way too much whip, too much
Wim:
00:03:55
work in progress, they're multitasking to jump between 10, 20 different projects.
Wim:
00:03:59
So even though it's 20 hours, it's going to be spread over like three months.
Wim:
00:04:02
So that's a big difference is if you're not efficient, it's going to take your
Wim:
00:04:06
lead time will be very long compared to the amount of time you've estimated on it.
Wim:
00:04:09
what I've seen by experience is our estimation on those lead times is not
Wim:
00:04:13
based on reality, it's like, I hope if we have this very optimistic way of thinking
Wim:
00:04:17
that, yeah, it's a 20 hour project, should be no problem to do that in a month, but
Wim:
00:04:20
it's not based on data, and if you look at the data, it'll show that The last 20
Wim:
00:04:23
projects we did are taking much longer.
Wim:
00:04:25
so need to have a database approach and, which unfortunately
Wim:
00:04:29
a lot of the PSAs don't give.
Wim:
00:04:30
You need external tools to look at that, how have we done over the year
Wim:
00:04:34
on our efficiency, on our lead time?
Wim:
00:04:36
So things like break gauge may have that.
Wim:
00:04:38
I know we have a, we can do that with top left with our nav integration is looking
Wim:
00:04:42
at lead times and these efficiencies of wonderful graphs and, dashboards.
Wim:
00:04:47
There.
Wim:
00:04:47
that's, yeah, there's other mistakes that can be, uh, take, assuming they're all
Wim:
00:04:51
the same lead time, but it's different types of work, so we got to look at that,
Wim:
00:04:54
and then there's differences, actually, on lead time goes from your order to
Wim:
00:04:59
delivery, or the request to delivery.
Wim:
00:05:01
Cycle time is another metric.
Wim:
00:05:03
which refers to the time from when you actually start.
Wim:
00:05:05
So if a client says, yep, we want to move to do the 365 migration,
Wim:
00:05:09
that's when we start our lead time.
Wim:
00:05:10
The cycle time starts when we actually start the project.
Wim:
00:05:14
So if we put it on a backlog, your lead time clock is counting,
Wim:
00:05:17
but not your cycle time.
Wim:
00:05:18
Once we actually start it, then your cycle time starts.
Wim:
00:05:21
so people may talk past each other with these definitions.
Wim:
00:05:24
It's important to agree on the definition, when is it actually
Wim:
00:05:27
starting and finishing on the clock.
Steve:
00:05:28
I gotta say, you are a wealth of knowledge, Wim.
Steve:
00:05:32
Is all of this that you've learned, is this all from the Phoenix Project?
Steve:
00:05:36
Or are there other books that have helped you understand some of
Steve:
00:05:40
these manufacturing KPIs better?
Wim:
00:05:43
that's one of them.
Wim:
00:05:44
I can send you this list of books for further reading.
Wim:
00:05:47
So obviously Phoenix Project 1.
Wim:
00:05:48
There's another one called the Lean CEO,
Steve:
00:05:50
I see that up on your wall.
Wim:
00:05:51
see it on the top, yeah.
Wim:
00:05:53
Traction is another great one.
Wim:
00:05:55
Traction is not Lean specific, but it does get into scorecards.
Wim:
00:05:58
So you can put some of these on your weekly scorecard.
Wim:
00:06:00
here's like the GoldRat books I got on my shelf here.
Wim:
00:06:03
so Lean CEO, he looks at not just manufacturing, but
Wim:
00:06:05
healthcare and government.
Wim:
00:06:07
So some really good case studies, and I think any CEO should read that one.
Wim:
00:06:10
There's a couple of books I really love from Art Byrne,
Wim:
00:06:14
it's called The Lean Turnaround.
Wim:
00:06:15
So he does a case study in a manufacturing environment where
Wim:
00:06:18
he's doing this lean turnaround.
Wim:
00:06:20
He does Kaizen, which is a Japanese word for continuous improvement,
Wim:
00:06:23
gets Kanbans going on the shop floor.
Wim:
00:06:25
And there's a real deep dive, and it's very applied into the people,
Wim:
00:06:29
the dynamics, like how do you get people from the old way of thinking to
Wim:
00:06:32
this continuous improvement mindset?
Wim:
00:06:34
it can take a while for people to come around on that.
Wim:
00:06:36
Some people don't, and they quit and leave.
Wim:
00:06:38
But he goes, he's done this many times, Art Burns.
Wim:
00:06:41
He's got a...
Wim:
00:06:41
Action book on that.
Wim:
00:06:42
There's Making Work Visible by Domenico DeGrande.
Wim:
00:06:45
So it's a book on how to remove the bottlenecks, visualize them,
Wim:
00:06:48
bring transparency to your workflow.
Wim:
00:06:50
Because you've got all these time thieves and people don't realize it.
Wim:
00:06:52
it's like a leech on our blood.
Wim:
00:06:53
but we don't see it.
Wim:
00:06:54
We don't feel it.
Wim:
00:06:55
There's no pain until we make it visible.
Wim:
00:06:57
won't, won't feel it.
Wim:
00:06:58
the Phoenix Project I love.
Wim:
00:06:59
It is like a 400 page book.
Wim:
00:07:01
so there's a simpler one called Bottleneck Rules by Clark Ching.
Wim:
00:07:05
It's also a story format and it's more like 200 pages, 150.
Wim:
00:07:08
So it's also, story with characters.
Wim:
00:07:10
love that one as well.
Wim:
00:07:11
Bottleneck rules.
Wim:
00:07:12
Lean it by Bell and Orin, helps.
Wim:
00:07:15
Yeah.
Wim:
00:07:15
How do we apply these lean principles to the IT world?
Wim:
00:07:18
I've got that one on my shelf as well.
Wim:
00:07:20
which is just reorganized.
Wim:
00:07:21
I just moved in, so I can't find it.
Wim:
00:07:23
LeanIT one is bit more towards textbook.
Wim:
00:07:26
It's got a lot in there.
Wim:
00:07:27
so I wouldn't really suggest reading it cover to cover, but, uh,
Wim:
00:07:30
cherry pick the chapters in there.
Wim:
00:07:31
So he's getting into metric, systems, theory, more academic technical on it,
Wim:
00:07:36
but I highly recommend that one as well.
Wim:
00:07:38
It's less well known, but for sure a classic.
Steve:
00:07:40
I really appreciate all of insight that you've been able to provide us with.
Steve:
00:07:44
Thank you.
Wim:
00:07:45
My pleasure.
00:00:00
Lead time is the duration it takes from the moment a client raises a
Wim:
00:00:05
request to its resolution or completion.
Wim:
00:00:07
So in an MSP, it could be when they submit a ticket request, a help desk,
Wim:
00:00:12
or change request, or when they approve that project, to the time it's done done.
Wim:
00:00:16
An example in manufacturing is you could say if you're a custom
Wim:
00:00:19
furniture company, from the time a customer says, hey, I want this, the
Wim:
00:00:24
sofa, to the time it's delivered.
Wim:
00:00:25
And it can get really long, if you look at going manufacturing planes,
Wim:
00:00:29
that could be many months or years, to get that through the entire process.
Steve:
00:00:33
I don't even think about things like manufacturing
Steve:
00:00:36
planes or aircraft carriers.
Steve:
00:00:38
Like, I can't even fathom the process for that because it's just too big for me.
Steve:
00:00:43
So, this one seems relatively simple enough, but I'll ask, how do you
Steve:
00:00:48
calculate the lead time metric?
Wim:
00:00:52
it's a running clock, so just when did we start it, the date and time, and
Wim:
00:00:55
when was it finished, date and time.
Steve:
00:00:57
Easy enough.
Steve:
00:00:58
Now, is this something that we should be looking at, every day?
Wim:
00:01:02
No, I don't think this would be daily, this would probably be a monthly.
Wim:
00:01:05
or annual kind of thing, depending on whether it's a
Wim:
00:01:07
project or help desk or change.
Wim:
00:01:09
looking at trends, yeah, it wouldn't be every day.
Steve:
00:01:12
Who's responsible for monitoring and actioning this KPI?
Wim:
00:01:17
Be your operations manager or your service manager.
Steve:
00:01:20
can you share an example of how this lead time KPI has
Steve:
00:01:24
helped your organization make a strategic change or decision?
Wim:
00:01:29
Or we're, I guess one example is our, just our sales process actually
Wim:
00:01:33
is, historically, it was me doing the sales, and it could take me, meet with a
Wim:
00:01:37
client, and it could take a while to get the quote put together and get it out.
Wim:
00:01:40
and...
Wim:
00:01:41
We'd handed off and it took a while, but we put a lot of work into standardizing
Wim:
00:01:44
our pricing and our packaging, standardizing discovery projects and just
Wim:
00:01:49
calculators and pricing tools and stuff.
Wim:
00:01:52
So now we can turn that around in a day, in 24 hours, we can
Wim:
00:01:55
get a proposal out to a client.
Wim:
00:01:57
That's huge on win rates and response times and everything there.
Wim:
00:02:00
that's made that so much more efficient.
Wim:
00:02:01
We saved the time there and just a much better client experience.
Wim:
00:02:04
And same with the projects and the onboarding.
Wim:
00:02:06
Standardizing that, having multiple people able to deal with that has
Wim:
00:02:10
really brought down those lead times.
Wim:
00:02:11
so automation, SOPs, cross training the team.
Wim:
00:02:14
That's all helped in the sales process, onboarding, and other areas.
Steve:
00:02:18
what kind of actions should MSPs be taking based on the metric?
Wim:
00:02:23
Yep.
Wim:
00:02:23
Starts with obviously monitoring and measuring it, because you can't improve
Wim:
00:02:26
what you don't monitor and measure.
Wim:
00:02:27
but I would break down the steps in that process, so whether it's
Wim:
00:02:30
a sales process, or maybe the marketing campaigns are taking a
Wim:
00:02:33
while to get approved and launched.
Wim:
00:02:35
or it could be migrations, or just a lot of places, but break
Wim:
00:02:38
down the steps, so we can see.
Wim:
00:02:39
What, what is waste in this value stream?
Wim:
00:02:42
Because ultimately this is, we're providing value to, to the customer.
Wim:
00:02:45
What do they not see as waste?
Wim:
00:02:46
Or what do they not see as value?
Wim:
00:02:47
Cut that out.
Wim:
00:02:48
And then where's the bottlenecks?
Wim:
00:02:50
So how can we improve that flow?
Wim:
00:02:51
The vari, or there might be variability that sometimes it
Wim:
00:02:53
takes, longer than other times.
Wim:
00:02:54
Or why is that?
Wim:
00:02:55
Can we make it predictable?
Wim:
00:02:56
could be working with suppliers, better training, better tools,
Wim:
00:03:00
better SOPs or templates perhaps.
Wim:
00:03:02
so people aren't having to think every time and do it from scratch.
Wim:
00:03:05
Reduce the brain requirement and, make it easier to jump into for anybody
Wim:
00:03:08
to jump into and keep it going.
Wim:
00:03:09
Like some of these things we don't do often, like onboarding clients.
Wim:
00:03:12
Like if you only do three a year, you're not going to be very efficient.
Wim:
00:03:15
It's going to take a while.
Wim:
00:03:16
so we need processes, tools that we can jump into it.
Wim:
00:03:19
with a quick lead time, short lead time, I should say.
Steve:
00:03:21
what are some of the misconceptions or mistakes that MSPs will make
Steve:
00:03:25
when getting started with lead time?
Wim:
00:03:28
I think they might confuse it with the time spent on it.
Wim:
00:03:30
They're like, okay, this ticket we put an hour on it, so the lead time was an hour.
Wim:
00:03:34
or I'd say they're giving an estimate to a client, and they're like, client asks, how
Wim:
00:03:37
long is it going to take to get this done?
Wim:
00:03:39
And, MSP will say, well, it's, a 20 hour project.
Wim:
00:03:41
So the client is assuming it's going to be done pretty quick.
Wim:
00:03:44
but the real question is, the client wants to know is, maybe not something
Wim:
00:03:46
about how much time is going into it.
Wim:
00:03:48
They want to know cost, but like when is it actually going to be done, which
Wim:
00:03:51
could be like months later because the MSP has got way too much whip, too much
Wim:
00:03:55
work in progress, they're multitasking to jump between 10, 20 different projects.
Wim:
00:03:59
So even though it's 20 hours, it's going to be spread over like three months.
Wim:
00:04:02
So that's a big difference is if you're not efficient, it's going to take your
Wim:
00:04:06
lead time will be very long compared to the amount of time you've estimated on it.
Wim:
00:04:09
what I've seen by experience is our estimation on those lead times is not
Wim:
00:04:13
based on reality, it's like, I hope if we have this very optimistic way of thinking
Wim:
00:04:17
that, yeah, it's a 20 hour project, should be no problem to do that in a month, but
Wim:
00:04:20
it's not based on data, and if you look at the data, it'll show that The last 20
Wim:
00:04:23
projects we did are taking much longer.
Wim:
00:04:25
so need to have a database approach and, which unfortunately
Wim:
00:04:29
a lot of the PSAs don't give.
Wim:
00:04:30
You need external tools to look at that, how have we done over the year
Wim:
00:04:34
on our efficiency, on our lead time?
Wim:
00:04:36
So things like break gauge may have that.
Wim:
00:04:38
I know we have a, we can do that with top left with our nav integration is looking
Wim:
00:04:42
at lead times and these efficiencies of wonderful graphs and, dashboards.
Wim:
00:04:47
There.
Wim:
00:04:47
that's, yeah, there's other mistakes that can be, uh, take, assuming they're all
Wim:
00:04:51
the same lead time, but it's different types of work, so we got to look at that,
Wim:
00:04:54
and then there's differences, actually, on lead time goes from your order to
Wim:
00:04:59
delivery, or the request to delivery.
Wim:
00:05:01
Cycle time is another metric.
Wim:
00:05:03
which refers to the time from when you actually start.
Wim:
00:05:05
So if a client says, yep, we want to move to do the 365 migration,
Wim:
00:05:09
that's when we start our lead time.
Wim:
00:05:10
The cycle time starts when we actually start the project.
Wim:
00:05:14
So if we put it on a backlog, your lead time clock is counting,
Wim:
00:05:17
but not your cycle time.
Wim:
00:05:18
Once we actually start it, then your cycle time starts.
Wim:
00:05:21
so people may talk past each other with these definitions.
Wim:
00:05:24
It's important to agree on the definition, when is it actually
Wim:
00:05:27
starting and finishing on the clock.
Steve:
00:05:28
I gotta say, you are a wealth of knowledge, Wim.
Steve:
00:05:32
Is all of this that you've learned, is this all from the Phoenix Project?
Steve:
00:05:36
Or are there other books that have helped you understand some of
Steve:
00:05:40
these manufacturing KPIs better?
Wim:
00:05:43
that's one of them.
Wim:
00:05:44
I can send you this list of books for further reading.
Wim:
00:05:47
So obviously Phoenix Project 1.
Wim:
00:05:48
There's another one called the Lean CEO,
Steve:
00:05:50
I see that up on your wall.
Wim:
00:05:51
see it on the top, yeah.
Wim:
00:05:53
Traction is another great one.
Wim:
00:05:55
Traction is not Lean specific, but it does get into scorecards.
Wim:
00:05:58
So you can put some of these on your weekly scorecard.
Wim:
00:06:00
here's like the GoldRat books I got on my shelf here.
Wim:
00:06:03
so Lean CEO, he looks at not just manufacturing, but
Wim:
00:06:05
healthcare and government.
Wim:
00:06:07
So some really good case studies, and I think any CEO should read that one.
Wim:
00:06:10
There's a couple of books I really love from Art Byrne,
Wim:
00:06:14
it's called The Lean Turnaround.
Wim:
00:06:15
So he does a case study in a manufacturing environment where
Wim:
00:06:18
he's doing this lean turnaround.
Wim:
00:06:20
He does Kaizen, which is a Japanese word for continuous improvement,
Wim:
00:06:23
gets Kanbans going on the shop floor.
Wim:
00:06:25
And there's a real deep dive, and it's very applied into the people,
Wim:
00:06:29
the dynamics, like how do you get people from the old way of thinking to
Wim:
00:06:32
this continuous improvement mindset?
Wim:
00:06:34
it can take a while for people to come around on that.
Wim:
00:06:36
Some people don't, and they quit and leave.
Wim:
00:06:38
But he goes, he's done this many times, Art Burns.
Wim:
00:06:41
He's got a...
Wim:
00:06:41
Action book on that.
Wim:
00:06:42
There's Making Work Visible by Domenico DeGrande.
Wim:
00:06:45
So it's a book on how to remove the bottlenecks, visualize them,
Wim:
00:06:48
bring transparency to your workflow.
Wim:
00:06:50
Because you've got all these time thieves and people don't realize it.
Wim:
00:06:52
it's like a leech on our blood.
Wim:
00:06:53
but we don't see it.
Wim:
00:06:54
We don't feel it.
Wim:
00:06:55
There's no pain until we make it visible.
Wim:
00:06:57
won't, won't feel it.
Wim:
00:06:58
the Phoenix Project I love.
Wim:
00:06:59
It is like a 400 page book.
Wim:
00:07:01
so there's a simpler one called Bottleneck Rules by Clark Ching.
Wim:
00:07:05
It's also a story format and it's more like 200 pages, 150.
Wim:
00:07:08
So it's also, story with characters.
Wim:
00:07:10
love that one as well.
Wim:
00:07:11
Bottleneck rules.
Wim:
00:07:12
Lean it by Bell and Orin, helps.
Wim:
00:07:15
Yeah.
Wim:
00:07:15
How do we apply these lean principles to the IT world?
Wim:
00:07:18
I've got that one on my shelf as well.
Wim:
00:07:20
which is just reorganized.
Wim:
00:07:21
I just moved in, so I can't find it.
Wim:
00:07:23
LeanIT one is bit more towards textbook.
Wim:
00:07:26
It's got a lot in there.
Wim:
00:07:27
so I wouldn't really suggest reading it cover to cover, but, uh,
Wim:
00:07:30
cherry pick the chapters in there.
Wim:
00:07:31
So he's getting into metric, systems, theory, more academic technical on it,
Wim:
00:07:36
but I highly recommend that one as well.
Wim:
00:07:38
It's less well known, but for sure a classic.
Steve:
00:07:40
I really appreciate all of insight that you've been able to provide us with.
Steve:
00:07:44
Thank you.
Wim:
00:07:45
My pleasure.
