You Left Your Narcissistic Mother. Now What? Healing, No Contact & Breaking the Cycle

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You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shapes your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame.
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I'm your host, Nelani Pearl Hernandez.
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This episode is sponsored by the Happy Cannabis, body products designed to help you on your healing journey by supporting your nervous system with every application.
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What happens after you finally walk away from a narcissistic mother?
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Today I'm joined by Lena, the cycle breaking coach for a raw conversation about no contact, trauma bonds, self-sabotage, nervous system healing, and learning who you are when you're no longer living for your abuser.
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Lena, thank you so much for being here.
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Um what people don't see before is like we get to talk and get to know each other because most of the time, with the exception of one of my first podcasts with my um good friend Victoria from grad school, we are meeting for the first time when we're doing these podcasts.
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And the one thing that we have in common is crazy psycho-ass moms.
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So um, and I really wish that was in the DSM five that it just said, crazy psycho ass moms, how are they diagnosed?
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So thank you for being here, Alina.
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I appreciate you.
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I appreciate your voice in the space.
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And um, for listeners who are maybe just discovering your work for the first time, can you introduce yourself a little bit and then share with us what led to you creating um the cycle breaking coach?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So um, as you said, my name's Lena.
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Um, I was raised by a very narcissistic woman, and I cut her off four and a half years ago.
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And after that, I went on this journey of healing, as we all do, or I think most of us anyway.
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Um, and in that I realized a few things.
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One, I am really good at communicating, and I am really good at holding space for people and helping them find the wisdom and knowledge that they already know naturally without putting my personal input into it, you know?
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And so I was like, that's something I need to know about myself because when you grow up in a narcissistic home, you're taught that you're not worth anything unless it's to serve them.
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And if you aren't doing something directly for that narcissistic parent, you just you're what are you, you know?
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And so when I walked away, I was like, I need to find out who I am.
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That was a big part of it.
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Um, and then through that healing journey, recognizing like, okay, there are a lot of things that I picked up from her in order to survive.
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And they are fucking up my life, they are ruining my relationships, they are making me so stressed and anxious and like I can't do anything.
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And I've got to, I've got to just acknowledge that.
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And just acknowledging it and being like, oh my God, I do this like her, took so much pressure off of me because I didn't feel like I constantly had to say I'm not like her.
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It was like, no, I did that.
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And by saying I did that, I am nothing like her because she would never, you know, right, right.
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Then I had a friend who was like, hey, you know, it turns out I learned about this thing called professional coaching.
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And I really think you should look into it.
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And I was like, okay.
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And so I started diving into like the ICF and like ICF accredited schools, and like what sets apart somebody who really knows what they're fucking doing to somebody who got on TikTok and said, Hey, I did that.
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Oh, I'm gonna tell you how to do it better.
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Um, how do how do I do that?
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You know, and I found coaching and I fell in love with it.
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I fell in love with helping my clients recognize who they are, figure out how to love themselves, figure out how to regulate their nervous systems, and figure out how to do the things that therapy wasn't doing for them, right?
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Therapy serves so many purposes, but there was something missing for all of my clients.
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And so I got to step in and say, like, what do you need?
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And they're like, whoa, I need to, I don't know.
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How do I figure that out?
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You know?
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Um, and with that, just came like telling my story because I wanted people to know they weren't alone.
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And so I really started taking content, you know, seriously.
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And I just kind of snowballed from there.
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That's that's actually a really great story.
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And I think for a lot of people in this healing space on the internet, they really, this is kind of how it uh it happens.
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It's you know, for me, I've been no contact for about 10 years now, and it took me a while to do it.
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You know, I'm an only child, so it was it was definitely scary for me to think, okay, I don't have anybody else around.
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I'm not in contact with my family.
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What is going to happen?
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And that strength really comes from my husband to say, okay, I'm gonna be okay as I do this.
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And, you know, for you, you openly talk about being a the black sheep of your family and going no contact.
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So tell me a little bit about what that means so that the you know, the listeners can and the watchers know.
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And then what really was the turning point when you realized that that healing had to be a priority?
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Yeah.
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Okay, so the first question um being a black sheep and what that means to me.
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To me, it means um, well, in my family, it meant seeing the abuse, calling it out, and then standing against it.
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Um I am one of four, and my younger siblings, I'm the oldest.
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So my younger siblings all kind of fall in different categories about what they see and don't see from my mom.
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And to me, it was finding a way to not just be like one of my sisters who tries to see the best in her and ignore all the rest, right?
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I wanted to see good things, but I also didn't want that to only be where I was anymore.
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And then another sister is like, I see it, I'm gonna call it out, but I'm not gonna stand up for myself.
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So I'm just gonna be quiet when it comes down to like it's getting tough.
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And then another sibling, you know, just it just doesn't see it, doesn't see it at all.
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And um, I had to figure out how do I stand out from all of that because I don't want to be like that.
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I see that it is ruining their lives now, that it is like I'm recognizing it.
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I see it, I just don't want to be a part of it.
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So I had to stand out from that.
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The other part of it was, you know, I always had an emo heart.
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And I think like most 90s babies, we were told it's just a phase.
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And this is where that, you know, quote, it was never a phase mom comes in because that's so true.
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It clearly wasn't.
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But as I got older and I started finding like who I was, I got away from her and I started stepping into it.
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I was like, oh my gosh, I really like black.
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Like I wear mostly black.
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Like this is the most color I own.
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I'm like, you know, that's how that's who I am, that's where I feel comfortable.
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And so it was also like embracing who I am without her influence anymore.
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Right.
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Right.
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Well, I think for a lot of parents, you know, I I know my mom went through it because I went through a punk rock, and I mine was actually a punk rock phase.
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Like I I still love punk rock music, but it was definitely a phase for me where it was black and pink hair, it was, you know, all the things that punk rock is, and she didn't like it.
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But instead of like freaking out about it or you know, being a normal parent, it was like this like super abusive, like crazy when it came to what who I was, and it was it just didn't make sense at all.
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And that is like the biggest difference.
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Like most parents will know, oh, it's a phase, it's a blah blah blah, you know, whatever, whatever.
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Whereas this is that that is not my mom or my parents.
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So I think that that is a really significant thing is that you knew that it wasn't a phase and you wanted to move forward.
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You know, was there a moment that you realized growing up that this wasn't normal?
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You had four siblings or three siblings and they were all younger, but was there a point where you were like, ugh, this is not normal.
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There's something more going on.
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You know, I think that my nervous system, my gut, like my intuition did, but my brain didn't.
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I worked so hard to be enough.
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I was like the honor kid, you know, I always had A's and B's.
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I was constantly pushing to do more.
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I had a job at 14, like two jobs by the time I was 16.
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Like I was just always trying to make make everyone else happy.
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Um, and I truly believed that I was the problem because I noticed that my siblings didn't have the same kind of abuse that I had.
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Um, looking back now after going through my healing journey, I recognized they were also abused.
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It was just differently because flying monkeys are being abused.
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Um, and so I just I thought that it was just me.
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I didn't realize it was it was her until I became a mother.
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When I became a mom, I was like, how could you put your hand over your child's mouth and nose and make them not be able to breathe until they pee themselves or almost pass out?
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Right.
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How do you do that and then laugh about it hysterically?
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I don't, I don't get it.
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Um, I couldn't imagine even raising my hand to my child, let alone merely making them pass out, you know?
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Right.
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And so that's when I was like, this isn't normal because I knew I wasn't gonna do that to my kid.
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How could you have done it to me?
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And so then I was like very on guard with everything.
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That's when it kind of started clicking.
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Then there was a day where he actually threatened to punch me while I was holding my child.
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And that was like my first wake-up call.
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That's where I started going low contact.
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That's where I started stepping back and being like, it's not just me.
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It's she's going to hurt my child because she knows that would hurt me.
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And because I'm not affected by her behavior directly towards me anymore.
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It's like this is that's the next best thing.
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And I remember saying, no, she would never hurt him.
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Like, I see how she is with him, she wouldn't hurt him.
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He's not me, you know?
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And then she did.
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And I that's when I was like, oh my gosh, I was right all this time.
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All these days where I was like, something's not right, something's not right.
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And then I'm like, no, it's just you're you're just overreacting again, right?
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The gaslighting my of myself because it was programmed into me so deeply.
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It was just like I can't do it anymore.
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And that was it.
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That was the end for me.
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You know, that is it's so first of all, I'm so sorry that you went through that.
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That that is horrible, and that your child went through that.
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It it is one of the things that I say, I say often, and I say it, you know, because I think it's a good thing to be heard, but also I think for me is that my daughter saved me.
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And um, our my daughter gave me a reason to live, my husband saved me.
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And the reason being is when I was pregnant, I think I was right before I was about to have my daughter, my mom hit me.
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And she was coming at me towards my daughter, but towards my, you know, where she was, and I like blocked her from doing that.
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And I that I moved out.
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My, you know, that was 30 years ago.
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I moved out, and then um I was low contact with her, very similar to what you're saying, and then she was watching my daughter, and um what was included in the narcissistic abuse with my mother was uh medical abuse of me as a result of just the attention.
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And so it was like really it was frustrating, it was scary, it was confusing for me, and he took my daughter to the doctor when she was little, and the doctor called and said, you know, ma'am, I have someone here trying to get your daughter seen.
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What do you want us to do?
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And I was like, no.
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And I that was it.
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That was the line that's drawn.
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I think that yeah, and really what I'll say in regards to this, I don't think that they what they're trying to do there, it has really, and I say this with all the love in the world for all my kids and my husband, has nothing to do with the the person that they're doing it to.
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It's that they are trying to hurt you or me.
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Yeah, right.
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Exactly.
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And that because we are the target, right?
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Because they can choose what they're gonna do in regards to whatever it is that that, and that we're the target, that's the big thing, you know.
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And I'm so sorry you went through that.
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And I'm really happy that we found each other because the stories are so similar, it's so scary.
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Like it is once you see that formula, it's the same for every person.
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It is literally the same.
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And and I always say it's you know, it's not anything to do with you, you're not special.
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Like, we could break it down psychologically, uh, the narcissistic person's um self-worth and all those things, but that's not what this podcast is about.
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This podcast is centering the survivors and how they've healed because fuck the abusers, like really fuck them.
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I I don't, I don't care.
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I don't care that they were maybe abused when they were little.
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We were abused when we were little and we've come through it.
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Like that, and that like for a lot of people, that's a hard pill to swallow.
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Is that I don't care about them and their history, like I don't.
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It is um, there's a really, you know, I gotta clip it, I'll clip it in.
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There's a really, really good um scene in West Wing.
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I don't know if you've ever seen West Wing.
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So West Wing, um, the chief of staff, Leo McGarry, is an alcoholic.
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And during the entire course of the um the seasons, he does not drink until there is one point where he does.
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But he was explaining to someone who kept offering him a drink and offering him a drink um why he didn't drink.
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He's all I'm out an alcoholic.
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And they said, Oh, it's just one drink.
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He's all, but that's the thing.
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It's not one drink, it's the next drink and the next drink and the next drink.
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And everyone has the pro like the has the ability to be a shithead.
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Like everyone does on a daily basis.
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I would say a large majority of the population decides not to.
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And what our mothers did is choose to let whatever dysregulation feed into this narcissism um and then abuse us.
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And that I think is one of the hardest things is being able to break these cycles.
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And so, what for you has been one of the hardest parts of breaking the cycle emotionally?
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Um not beating myself up when I almost say something my mother would be proud of.
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Yes, yes.
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And when we say proud of, that means negative.
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Like the negative thing should be like, yes, bad thing, bad thing.
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Yeah.
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Um I actually made a video about this the other day because I went to say something to my son and his ice cream cone broke.
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Um, I was like making him an ice cream cone and it broke.
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And I told him, I said, Hey, you know, it's broken.
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And he's like, Oh no.
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I said, Yeah.
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And then I almost said, but you're just gonna have to deal with it.
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And that's something my mother said to me all the time, but it's not true.
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He doesn't have to do something.
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He could choose to not eat the ice cream at all.
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He could get a bowl instead of the cone, he could smash up the cone and use it as a topping.
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And you know what?
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That kid's so fucking smart, he could probably think of 15 other ways to have not dealt with it, right?
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So in that moment, I was like, Oh, yep.
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You know what we could do is we could just add extra ice cream right there if that'll work for you.
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And he was like, Yeah.
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Completely like one, we didn't even have a spiral, we didn't have a meltdown, we didn't have a moment of like everything's gone to shit, right?
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Yeah.
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Um, which is what that one statement always instilled in me was like, oh, it's horrible.
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But the truth is, isn't it?
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It isn't horrible, it's what you make of it.
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And so in that moment, I caught myself.
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But four years ago, when I would catch myself doing something like that, I internalized it as I'm horrible rather than I adapted to survival by doing what she taught me to do.
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And now I'm adapting to healthy life, and and that means doing it differently.
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And and how that takes time that that takes learning.
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It's not, I can't stand when people tell me that like as soon as they went no contact, everything was better, that they were all better, that everything was no, no, the fuck it wasn't.
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Because one, that's not how your nervous system works.
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Your nervous system was trained to be this shit, this shit miss, and now you have to untangle it.
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It's like Christmas lights, it takes time, and sometimes you have to replace a battery, meaning replace an entire habit.
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You can't just say, Okay, I unplug it, and now there's no more Christmas lights that are tangled up.
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Like, that's not how it works.
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Um, yeah, that's right.
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I love that analogy of tangled Christmas lights because that's really, I mean, if you look at your brain, I mean, they literally were rewiring your brain, right?
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:20.240
Like there's all these neurotransmitters, neurochemicals that go with abuse and the rewiring, and you're literally untangling that mess.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:25.599
Literally, you're untangling a mess in order to get to baseline.
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:27.839
I mean, that's really what they did.
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:41.359
And I think that uh for a lot of survivors of this narcissistic abuse, there is a shame that comes with like thinking certain things that you were automatically trained to think.
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:48.480
Yeah, and that's what I talk about so much because it is something that we we carry this shame and this guilt.
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:51.519
And that's the thing guilt and shame are two different things, okay?
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:51.839
Right.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.519
Shame is something that's put on you.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:20:00.480
So if you are feeling shameful, it is not from you, it's from the outside, which means it's not your burden to carry, right?
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:06.480
Let their task be theirs, their emotions are theirs to handle, theirs to regulate, theirs to deal with.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:14.319
And then if it's guilt, that means that there's something that is truly not aligned with a value that you hold.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:25.599
So sometimes that means looking past about a value that your mother or other narcissistic caregiver puts on you isn't yours.
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:27.039
Well, sometimes it's not.
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:31.279
For example, Christianity, that was not my value.
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:32.559
It was put on me.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:38.480
And for a long time, I believed people who weren't Christians were bad because they just weren't.
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:39.759
And that's what I was told.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.920
And as I separated myself from that, I realized that's not my value at all.
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:46.720
My value is how do you treat others?
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:52.400
I don't care what your religion is, I don't care what your belief system is or your faith or whatever.
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.240
But how do you treat people?
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:59.200
Because I know a shit ton of Christians who do not treat people well, right?
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.599
In the name of God, they don't treat people well.
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:02.480
That's the thing.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:22.720
Like, and and that's a whole nother like conversation to have because I think uh, you know, Oprah Winfrey and Mel Robbins got it fucking wrong when they said, Hey, you should not be spoiled brats and talk to your parents.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:32.400
Well, fuck you, especially and especially disappointed in Oprah because she has been through abuse and she should know better.
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:34.480
That's a whole nother topic.
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:43.119
But when people use, you know, well, God says honor thy father and honor thy mother, like that's great.
00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:49.680
And there's like a thousand other verses that we can talk about that talks about abuse, that talks about treating people badly, all those things.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:50.720
So fuck them.
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:59.759
But I think that what I think is the most beautiful thing about healing is that every day is different and every day you're growing.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.880
That's a beautiful gift that this abuse has given.
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:12.000
And so for you, what does healing really look like right now compared to when you first started like four and a half years ago and going no contact?
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:30.240
Okay, so four and a half years ago, healing looked like getting my eating uh disorder under control and graduating from the mental health hospital from the IOP program that I voluntarily checked myself into because I was not okay after going no contact.
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:35.839
That's one thing I do want to say here is that going no contact doesn't mean it's easier.
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.799
It doesn't mean it gets better even right away.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:41.599
Most of us struggle really bad.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.039
So if you do go no contact, please reach out to somebody.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:45.359
Yes.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:47.279
My inbox is always open.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:49.039
You anyone can message me.
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.119
Um, so I just want to say that.
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:54.960
But then um, you know, that was a big part for me.
00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:05.119
And then back then, now it's more of like allowing the celebrations to be celebrations.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:09.759
Um, I have a service dog who will be retiring in two years from now.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:16.079
And when he and I trained him myself, and it takes about two years to fully train a new dog.
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:22.160
And so I just recently, as of yesterday, brought home my next prospect puppy.
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:24.480
And I was so excited.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:29.680
I have been in love with this dog since I saw it, and I was like, I know that's the one for me.
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:30.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.240
And so I got so excited, you know?
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.559
And then last night I'm laying in bed.
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:35.680
This dog came home.
00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:42.640
He's like so calm and chill, and he's like sleeping in his crate without whining the first night away from his litter.
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:47.680
I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like, oh, the universe is looking out for me.
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:52.000
Um, and then all of a sudden it started being like, okay, this is too good.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:53.279
Where's the bad thing?
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:55.119
That's gonna drop.
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.240
When's the next shoe that's gonna drop is always what it is.
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:02.319
You know, it's so it used to be where it was just that.
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:13.920
It was like, okay, the next bad thing is coming, but now it's like I'm so aware that I'm so aware that I caused most of the next bad things.
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:25.119
Yeah, I was so used to the chaos and so used to the up and down and the struggle that I created it because I didn't know what else to do.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:26.880
And so now I'm aware of it.
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:30.480
And so I'm sitting in bed and I'm like, okay, this is not working.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.680
I am spiraling, that's my saboteur speaking.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:33.920
Right.
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:35.359
I'm a P coach.
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:47.599
So, you know, I'm sitting here like doing PQ reps, trying to like regulate myself and just recognize, like, okay, it's okay that you're thinking this, and you have the power to choose to do differently.
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:48.880
So what are you gonna do?
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.240
And I'm like, right, we're gonna meditate until we go to bed.
00:24:52.559 --> 00:25:08.799
Right, you know, and this is the interesting thing because I think that what a lot of people might not understand is there's a lot of self-sabotage that goes into you know, recovering from a narcissistic abuse um situation.
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:18.640
And that self-sabotage is like the IEDs that were put in your brain by your, you know, your abuser, whether it's your mother or whatever it is.
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:23.119
And for me, I see that often.
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:34.559
And I see it in um as I'm starting to be successful or whatever it is, I will start to talk myself out of it, not in a bad way, but in a like, you don't deserve.
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:36.160
Well, I guess it is in a bad way.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:39.279
There, there was the the automatic response, right?
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:40.799
There, you don't deserve this.
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:41.759
This is so wonderful.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:42.880
What's gonna happen?
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:44.000
All of those things.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.480
And for a lot of people, that is a hard thing.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:48.240
Being successful is hard.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:53.680
So what I want to say first is like, I'm so proud of you for checking yourself in.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.039
And I want to say this for other people who are listening.
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:08.799
Like, if you are going through a difficult time, definitely reach out to, you know, for to you, to me, to whoever it is, and reach out to a mental health professional.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:19.039
And know that, you know, with us and our coaching, oftentimes what happens is therapists look at family systems, they look at that past trauma, they look at whatever it is.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:26.480
While coaches, we really look at that forward motion, what things that you can do in order to get to your space.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:30.559
For me, I hold all the same confidentialities that a therapist holds.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:38.640
Yes, as a result, as you do as well, as a result of the training that I received in grad school, because there is that.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:45.119
On top of that, I don't know if anybody knows, but you have to pay for supervision when you go and get your hours.
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.240
And as a single mom at the time, that was crazy expensive.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.279
So for people, that's a hard thing to do.
00:26:51.519 --> 00:27:03.680
And so know that oftentimes therapists also get their coaching certification, and coaches might have gone through some kind of training.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:05.279
So, no, all of that.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:08.079
I'm not certified to diagnose anything.
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.000
I have a DSM 5 in back of me.
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:15.200
I'm not certified to diagnose anything, so insurance can't pay for us, but we can't help.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:16.640
And that's the big thing.
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:27.279
Um, you know, you talk a lot about trauma bonds with narcissistic moms, and how do you describe how that feels like to someone who might still be stuck on the inside?
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:45.839
I would say that it feels like some people say it's an addiction, but I think it's often not something that you recognize.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.119
And I think even when addicts don't want to admit it, they often recognize what's happening.
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:53.119
I don't think that it's quite like that.
00:27:53.279 --> 00:28:02.720
I think it's more like if you step back and you look at the relationship, are you the only one giving?
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:09.119
Are you the only one hurting or showing hurt or communicating hurt?
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.640
And are you the only one taking all the blame for the hurt?
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:30.640
I think it's that, and then you say, okay, well, I'm not gonna take this anymore, but then leaving feels impossible.
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:32.400
Impossible.
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:47.200
I think so often people feel like going no contact is impossible, and although I can recognize that it feels impossible, it is a choice you are making.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:53.279
If you're saying to me, I can't go no contact because I live with my mother, you're choosing to stay there.
00:28:53.599 --> 00:29:02.880
I am not saying it is not the best option for you right now, because sleeping outside under a bridge may not be a better option for you, but to others it is.
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:08.960
And by saying you do not have that choice, you are actually keeping yourself stuck.
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:15.839
So it is the idea of I have to be here, I can't leave, and I want to leave, but I can't leave.
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:18.160
To me, that's how I see it.
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:24.400
Um and I think um, circling back, you had mentioned self-sabotage.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:38.960
I think it's really interesting how so many people think self-sabotage happens after going no contact, but they don't ever recognize how much it happened while you were in contact and the value of self-sabotage.
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:41.119
So many people see it as just bad.
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:43.279
Well, what is bad, honestly?
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:53.920
When you self-sabotaged, it was a form of having control, it was a form of not being hurt by the one person you craved to be loved by the most.
00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:01.759
Self-sabotage was a tool of survival and and for many of us, a tool of happiness.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:06.480
Because if I messed it up, then the person I just wanted to love me didn't.
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:10.079
Because if I messed it up, then I had the control.
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:12.720
She didn't take it from me, right?
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:24.640
And then you carry that over, and I think because there's no one there sabotaging it or requiring the sabotage, that's when people start seeing it, and then they're like, I can't believe I'm doing this to myself.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.759
It's so horrible.
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.880
But is it it protected you for all this time?
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:30.319
It got you here.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:35.839
It doesn't mean it was good or the best, but that's black and white thinking, right?
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:46.160
And that's really common with kids of um who are recovering from narcissistic abuse, like um that there's a lot of black and white thinking.
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:53.119
And I, you know, by the grace of God, my husband, he's so patient with me because I'm like a black and white thinker.
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.480
Um, and also I'm a semantic thinker.
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.279
So that drive like for some people that drives them nuts.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:01.599
It's like, okay, well, this is gold.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:05.680
And like I'm like, well, it's not really gold, it's like a rose gold.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:06.960
And it's like, really?
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:08.720
Did I need to say that?
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:09.440
Right.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:15.359
And so I know that I drive him and my kids probably nuts.
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.160
And I'm like, let me say this right now publicly.
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:18.720
I'm sorry.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:20.400
I know I'm a pain in the ass.
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:22.960
And I appreciate the grace with that.
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:30.319
But the one thing that I will never change my black and white thinking on is lying and and justice.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:36.480
When those two things are like any form of lying, even a white lie, I'm like, you lied.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.000
Like that is a lie.
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:38.799
You lied.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:49.359
And my the it drives my kids nuts because they're like, oh, you know, if they were late on a homework assignment or something, I'm like, just tell me that you were late.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:57.279
Like, I care about why you were late and we can have a discussion about it, but don't be like, well, you know, it was not really late.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:02.880
It was like, you know, 15 minutes late based on, you know, when they turn in it in online.
00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:04.720
It was fucking late.
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:05.920
Like, it was late.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:11.920
Just say, you know what, it was late, and the internet went down because the internet bubbles up sometimes and it decides us off.
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:12.960
Like, just say it.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:14.000
Like, just say it.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:14.880
It's not that hard.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:26.319
Because I think that for me, semantics or that like half half-truths are how my mom manipulated me.
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:30.480
Yeah, and my dad, and my grandparents, and everyone around her.
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:32.400
It's half truths, right?
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:33.839
Like, just be honest.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:38.000
Like, for instance, if you were like, Oh, how much do you weigh to my mom?
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:40.960
She'd be like, Oh, maybe I weigh like 115.
00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:41.759
She doesn't.
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:43.920
That's what it says on a driver's license.
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:47.039
So semantically, she is right, but she doesn't.
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:48.079
Who cares how much you weigh?
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:50.480
It's none of your fucking business how much I weigh, right?
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.400
Like, that's really easy to say.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.440
So that black and white thinking, crazy.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:56.400
I totally get it.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:04.319
And you know, I think there's a misnomer when it comes to trauma bonds.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:11.759
And so I want to say this trauma bonds when it's worded trauma bonds, and I know this is semantics now.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:15.440
When it's worded trauma bonds, that is the negative thing.
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:25.519
Bonded by trauma is different, meaning if you and your siblings were still in contact and you were super close, you are bonded by the trauma that you went through.
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:26.079
Right.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:31.039
Where a trauma bond is control of one person as a result of the trauma.
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:34.319
And I think that is a really important thing.
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:42.000
Like, so, and I could probably do a whole month on that because there's a lot of people that are bonded by trauma.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:48.720
But I think the thing that's really important is people to assess that before they say trauma bond.
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:53.519
It's very popular right now to say like popular, like toxic comments.
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:54.799
Oh, they're being a narc.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.200
Oh, they're gaslighting me, oh, all of those things.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.960
Like, I want to bring it back to the science of it and what it actually is.
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:03.599
So thank you for explaining that.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:16.559
Many daughters that I see that comment on things that I have, and you probably experienced this too, have an immense amount of guilt, or and I would even say it's probably more shame after going no contact.
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:24.960
So, how did you personally separate that guilt or shame from the actual responsibility of being a child of your mother?
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:38.559
And I think for me, the way that I was able to separate the the two and recognize that it wasn't my responsibility is recognizing that I wouldn't expect someone else to do it.
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.320
So, why am I playing a role of somebody that I wouldn't be?
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:48.159
I wouldn't expect my best friend to deal with this with their friends.
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:51.760
So why was I saying it was I was less?
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:58.159
Why was I saying that I have to take on all of this crap, right?
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:06.400
Like when I go to her, I'm listening, I'm apologizing for your behavior.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.920
I mean, it happens that way, but like that's what was happening, you know?
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:12.480
Like, I'm apologizing that you hurt me.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:13.360
Oh sorry.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.880
Somehow, like, yeah, how dare I have human emotions?
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:18.239
What was I thinking?
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:18.719
Yeah.
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:23.760
Um like, and somehow it was never reciprocated.
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:36.239
I read a book and I couldn't even tell you what book it was because I don't remember what it's called, but I can tell you it's by Rusty Lock E, maybe L-O-C-K-E, I think.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:37.840
Um it's a super short book.
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:44.639
It's like his memoir or something, but in there he talks about not taking on the responsibility of others.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:47.760
And that that was like a big wake-up call to me.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:54.000
There's a lot of things in that book that I don't agree with, and I just want to say that, like, I don't necessarily align with his views.
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:59.119
Um, you know, when you like take what's valuable and leave the rest, it was one of those for me.
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:06.960
And it made a big difference in my life because I stopped assuming responsibility for everybody else's shit.
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:11.440
I stopped deciding that I was the only one who could fix it.
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:12.079
Right.
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:14.639
You know, and that I think is a really important thing.
00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:25.360
I think for um in my experience in healing, one of the things that I is important for people to know is not everyone's healing journey looks the same.
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:28.400
And I call it a chicutery board of healing.
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:44.239
Whatever you take from people, like you could say you can hear something or be listening to someone who you think is atrocious, but they might say one specific thing, and you can say, you know what, that really makes sense.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:56.000
Not everybody who's atrocious does that, but sometimes you know, there's a little ray of shunk sunshine, and I think that is a really important thing for people to to realize.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:08.880
Um I think you know one of the things one of the things your content often touches on is that hypervigilance and that survival mode.
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:16.320
And what were some signs for you that your nervous system was never actually safe?
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:24.320
I think somebody just finally asked me when's the last time you felt safe.
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:27.440
And I was like, I don't know what that feels like.
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:31.039
Um so never.
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:37.840
I think another big part was I started recognizing that.
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.599
So my wife and I, we've been together for 12 years, married for 10 this year.
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:47.039
And I started recognizing that being around, thank you, being around her, and she's welcome.
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:51.920
You know, you were saying earlier, like your partner thinks you're no, mine thinks I'm a queen.
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:53.519
I refuse to listen to anything else.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:54.239
I'm scared.
00:37:55.119 --> 00:38:06.880
Um, but no, I you know, I started recognizing that like the only time I felt safe to even do like basic necessities, use the bathroom, for example.
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.639
If I traveled, I couldn't go to the restroom.
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:23.280
And I know that this happens to not just me, but like it was to the point of if she wasn't home, I couldn't use the restroom because I felt so unsafe all the time.
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:24.239
Yeah.
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:29.440
But when she was around, I was like, wait a second, this is totally different.
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:30.639
Right.
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.440
That's not a bad thing because it allowed me to recognize it.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:44.639
But now, how had I stayed on that track, had I decided that I was just gonna be okay with a codependent relationship, that would have been unhealthy.
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:47.039
So again, I want to reiterate 10%.
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:53.760
And like you were saying, there's something good in basically everything, that it's your choice to decide if you want to see it or not.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:02.320
And maybe it's not directly there, but they there's a saying that's like you're connected to everybody by with five degrees or something, yeah.
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:06.159
Seven or seven degrees of uh of Kevin Bacon.
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:09.679
That's yes, okay, like so yeah, something like that, right?
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:14.239
So there's I don't like that about it, but I like this about it.
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.800
Okay, well, I don't like that about it, but I like this about it.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:18.719
You know, like PQ, we call it the 10%.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:24.079
Find the 10% that you can turn into something that's not horrible, right?
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:26.239
And I think that's really important, you know.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:37.360
I I say that my husband saved me, and I and I honestly do think that's true because we're talking about, you know, where that safety comes from.
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:43.760
He was the first person that saw, without me telling him that my mom was a narcissist.
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.760
The first person he was like, Whoa, that was a lot.
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:50.320
I'm gonna let you handle that.
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:55.199
You know, I've told the story multiple times about what she did at my grandfather's funeral.
00:39:55.360 --> 00:40:06.079
My grandfather loved my husband, um, met him at the end of his life, and none of us, my grandfather was a patriarch of the family, and none of us knew what to do when he got sick.
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:10.239
And like, you know, when he was trying to get up one time, all of us were just staring at him.
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.000
And my husband was like, What are you guys doing?
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:15.679
And like, you know, politely moved forward and helped him out of bed.
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:32.000
And so my grandpa, when you know, I my daughter and I both went and had some time with him alone without anyone around to just kind of like say our goodbyes, listen to the last bits of wisdom that he would want to give to us.
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:35.039
And he was like, Don't fuck this up.
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:37.679
Like, literally went out about my husband.
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:46.960
And I love telling that story because I think my my grandpa held on as long as he could as a result of knowing that I was going through all this stuff.
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:52.159
Because he was my grandpa, he couldn't really like step in and save me from it, which is fine.
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.559
It was not his responsibility.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:07.280
Um, and he knew like he knew because my dad, he he had full custody of my dad and his two brothers when my dad was like, I think he was like under the age of one.
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:12.559
And his wife, my grandma, so my dad is like in his 70s.
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:14.880
I loved my grandma, she was an amazing grandma.
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:18.400
She went, she moved to Oregon, she had a whole nother family.
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:27.599
I think she really took like took lists of her life and said, Okay, I'm going to do it a different way this time.
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:34.559
And so my dad has his own mother wounds, and my mom was a narcissist, my stepmother was a narcissist.
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:40.159
I say often that his new girlfriend, who I haven't met and they've been with for a while, might be a narcissist.
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:45.920
I have a feeling she might be because she's hiding, but but I'll let you all know once I meet her.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:49.519
Because my dad just was not equipped for it.
00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:52.079
Yeah, he had his own mother wounds.
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:54.079
I don't fault him for that.
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.119
And my grandpa just couldn't step.
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:02.000
He, you know, it's not the right thing for him to do to step in.
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:05.039
They protected me as much as they could within a certain reason.
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:07.679
Like he picked me up every day from high school.
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.920
Every day from high school, he picked me up.
00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:13.119
And I was like, uh, he doesn't have to come.
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:15.840
It's clear across town for him to come and pick me up.
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:19.360
And then I would go to their house until my mom got off of work.
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:24.320
And then sometimes she would pick me up and sometimes she wouldn't, or my grandpa would, you know, drop me off.
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:29.199
I never stayed at their house overnight, even though I probably could have and it would have been easier.
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.000
But he was like, you know, the there's a line.
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:35.519
And I can't, I you have to figure this out.
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:42.000
And even though probably at the time I didn't agree with it, I absolutely agree with it now.
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:53.519
Because we, as coaches, know we can't tell our survivors, hey, by the way, your mom's an arc, or hey, by the way, your significant other's an arc, or hey, by the way, your dad's an arc.
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:55.519
That person has to see it.
00:42:56.079 --> 00:43:01.199
We can slowly push, pull the curtain back, but they're gonna have to make that and decide.
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:05.199
And I think that that's a really important thing.
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:07.679
I don't know if you've experienced this.
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:16.079
I've experienced a couple times where survivors that I'm working with minimize what happened to them or convince themselves that it wasn't that bad.
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:18.639
Why do you think that's the case?
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:21.679
Because that's how they kept themselves safe.
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:22.239
Yep.
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:22.800
Yep.
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:24.800
And they have that little IED.
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:25.920
That's a thing, right?
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:31.920
Like that's a little IED that I think that people, as they start to step away and they're like, oh, it's not safe out there.
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:34.159
Oh, she wasn't that bad, right?
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:39.679
Like, I've probably said that 10 or 15 times before I stopped talking to my mom.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:41.679
Oh, it really wasn't that bad.
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:45.599
It was bad, like it was crazy, it was bad.
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:58.000
Um and only with people, survivors like you and other people in the healing space can I um can I deal with that?
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:02.639
Like, like where they Are like, yeah, that was crazy.
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:06.480
And I'm so sorry.
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:11.280
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00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:14.559
And now back to our episode.
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:19.519
Like anybody who understands that, because some of those stories are crazy.
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:28.000
Like we had one guest on who said, I was out skiing and my mom was staying with me, and then she I came home and all my furniture was gone.
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:30.000
I was like, wait, what?
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:32.320
All your furniture was gone.
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:33.679
That's crazy.
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:37.519
The crazy part was she left her a freaking note.
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:40.320
She left her a note and said, Thank you for all your furniture.
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:42.000
And I was like, Oh my god.
00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:46.800
She she thought that she thought that shit out.
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:52.000
Like she thought it out and then left a note so that it didn't look like she was guilty.
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:55.119
That is maniacal.
00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:08.320
And that's what I think for a lot of people that they have to understand is you talked about addiction a little bit, um, in the sense of like people, we are addicted to this behavior.
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:12.000
Uh and I know that they are addicted to it too.
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:13.280
They are addicted to it.
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:17.599
They get a high, they get a you know, a hit off of treating us like shit.
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:23.840
And I say that because anytime my mom leaves me a message, she's blocked, but I'll go and look at my blocked messages.
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:29.199
It takes literally 15 seconds for her to turn and take off that mask.
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:32.719
It's hi, how's it going?
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:47.599
You're super sweet, you know, a super sweet message, and then oh my god, and like just if you can think of all the horrible things that you would call your worst enemy, take that, multiply it by a thousand, and that's what she says to me.
00:46:48.079 --> 00:47:02.000
And I would assume that's what your your mom says to you, or you know, if she did decides, yeah, did say to you, and if she just decides to find you on uh, you know, any social media, that's what she says.
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:04.719
Um, and here I'll say this now.
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:06.639
Um, fuck your mom.
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:11.360
I'm not gonna believe anything that you're gonna say because I know the truth.
00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:14.800
So good luck with trying to convince me differently.
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:16.480
So we'll just put that out there.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:18.800
And she will, man, she will.
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:30.400
That's the thing about a narcissistic person is that they really do like after living in the delusion for so long, they like really believe it.
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:34.320
Like they believe their own lies.
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:36.079
It's crazy.
00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:37.039
It's crazy.
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:51.840
Well, and you know, the thing is, um, so in my husband, so my husband and I own our own business, and one of the things that we specialize in is like high conflict um mediation with in companies, organizational health.
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:59.840
Because what I think what we've experienced that people don't talk about is how this narcissistic abuse affects everything.
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:02.079
It literally affects everything.
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:05.519
If people look at the world today, it affects everything.
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:09.840
Everything from advertisements to nonprofits, it affects everything.
00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:12.559
And I had someone call me this morning.
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:16.239
I was dropping off my kids um at school.
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.519
It's um, and let me say this on a side.
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:23.440
It's my bonus daughter's last Friday of her senior year.
00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:24.480
I'm not okay.
00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:27.920
Like I literally have been crying about everything.
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:33.199
Um, and some of it might be perimenopause, but I would say that probably most of it's not.
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:40.719
So um she was saying, you know, this person, you know, this person is being like this to me.
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:45.039
And I said, I I know, I know that's it's super frustrating.
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:48.719
And she's like this to everyone, so you're not special.
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:53.519
Like, meaning for us, I say that we were special because we were the target.
00:48:54.000 --> 00:49:01.119
She's a bitch to everyone, but you know, being the target, I said, and you are the person who holds accountability.
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:12.079
We held accountability for our mothers, we were the accountability, and that is a scary thing for a narcissist that is stuck.
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:18.000
Like the fact that we're alive, that is her culpability.
00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:20.079
Yeah, and that's scary.
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:24.159
So they're gonna do everything that they can to pull you down, flying monkeys, all that.
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:29.119
By the way, flying monkeys, fuck you too, because like we can't see them a mile away.
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:40.800
So, you know, a lot of survivors confuse chaos, and I did this for a long time with love because chaos really feels familiar.
00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:46.320
How did healing change the way you view your relationship, like with your wife?
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:59.519
Um a big thing that changed for me was to stop expecting or relying on her for anything.
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:13.519
You said earlier that your husband saved you, and I I a big part of my healing was to stop letting my wife be the one that saved me, but instead be the mirror so that I could see how to save myself.
00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:14.000
Yes.
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:20.880
Um, I had to, we had to get to a point where she became my coach instead of my therapist.
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:35.440
And for those who don't know what a coaching relationship is, a coach doesn't give you advice, they don't tell you what the best choice is, they ask you thoughtful questions so that you can find the best choice.
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:40.639
Whereas a therapist might say, Hey, you know, I think it's time for you to do this, this, this, this.
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:41.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:43.119
And that's just part of the job description.
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.360
Like they're just different in that way, and that's okay.
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:46.079
Right.
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:47.039
And that's great.
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:50.320
And there's a time for therapy and there's a time for coaching.
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:53.760
And I had to say, I need you to stop saving me.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:58.960
I know that I'm asking you for it, and it's because I don't believe I can do it on my own.
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:04.320
And I need someone to believe in me so strongly that you will not rescue me anymore.
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:04.480
Yeah.
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:07.039
Somebody who will say, It's your shit.
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:08.239
You got to figure it out.
00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:09.519
I will do my part.
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:11.920
For example, I said, I need to go get help.
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:13.760
I need to go to a mental hospital.
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:16.800
I don't know how to make make it okay to eat food.
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:21.280
And I'm I'm losing 40 pounds in a you know, two months and I'm not okay.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.039
Like I need to go get help.
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:26.320
And she said, Okay, that's your responsibility.
00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:27.519
Figure out where you're going.
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:32.320
I'll figure out my job stuff so that I can be at home with our child while you go get help.
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:35.039
You know, and I think that's the enmesh.
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:43.760
Yeah, yes, the enmesh because when you grow up in a narcissistic home, you are a mesh with your narcissistic parent for survival.
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:48.559
And then when you don't have them there, you tend to find other ways to a mesh.
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:53.920
People who have BPD, like myself, tend to have a favorite person.
00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:57.760
And I when you have a favorite person, they become your savior.
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:03.199
It's not just your favorite person to hang out with, it's the person you rely on to survive.
00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:05.519
And she was that.
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:08.559
And I recognize she wasn't doing a great job.
00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:11.679
Like, I wasn't okay because it wasn't her job.
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:13.599
And she was like, No, I'm not doing this.
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:14.880
Like, you got to figure it out.
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:16.639
And that's exactly what I needed.
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:31.280
Well, and that's one of the big things that, you know, one and I think, you know, with my husband, yes, he saved me, took got me out of that space, and then started this process of right, let's have a conversation about this.
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:32.079
Let's do this.
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:33.760
Why are you feeling this way?
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.320
Why do you want to do this versus do this?
00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:38.159
And that is a really important thing.
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:49.280
Like, so when I say save, and because I want to make that clear, is took me out of the situation, got me out of the haze because there's a narcissistic haze that falls all over you.
00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:52.239
And then you're then you start to relax.
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:59.280
And for those of you, so I'm gonna get on my mental health soapbox.
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:05.119
For those of you who think that BPD is like this big crazy thing because it's under a certain cluster.
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:07.119
Fuck you guys, you don't understand.
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:12.719
So BPD is very common when you have gone through some kind of trauma.
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:20.239
And the reason why is BPD is an attachment disorder, it has nothing to do with anything other than that.
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:24.800
And you did a really great job right there of explaining what it could look like.
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:35.519
Because I know I I have um worked with many people who have BPD, and it's hard.
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:37.760
It's hard, and the feelings are big.
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:58.800
The feelings are big, a lot bigger than like if someone cut, well, maybe maybe traffic is probably not the best thing because I'm pretty get pretty upset about traffic, but a reaction might be much bigger than what a and I say a normal, very like loosely, what people usually understand.
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:06.239
And what I will say is this I appreciate you bringing light to that because good on you.
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:09.039
You are you are a fantastic person.
00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:10.639
Good on you.
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:17.519
Like, I think that mental first of all, I just want to also say BPD is not my only three-letter diagnosis.
00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:21.760
Um I also have a few four and five-letter diagnoses.
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:28.320
Okay, so it's not my only one, but what people think of as BPD are the ones who get the most light.
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:29.920
It's just like dog bites.
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:36.639
Pit bulls are not the ones who do the most biting, but they're the ones who always get the most publicity.
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:38.960
Yeah, so then people believe they're bad.
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:41.039
It's the same thing with mental health.
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:46.159
Most of us have gone to get help because we are tired of our life being miserable.
00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:57.039
And most of us no longer actually who have been diagnosed with BPD hit all of the criteria because we've done the healing and the change and the growth and the work.
00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:59.760
We don't just show up to a talk therapy session.
00:54:59.840 --> 00:55:10.559
We show up to a therapy session where we find a tool and then we fucking use it over and over and over again until it works and becomes natural.
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:13.679
I do not have an unhealthy attachment anymore.
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:21.280
I am actually now an open, polyamorous person who has had multiple long-distance relationships.
00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:28.320
I've had multiple, you know, relationships outside of my marriage that have been healthy that have just not worked out for one reason or another.
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:32.559
But they weren't unhealthy attachments, they weren't unhealthy relationships.
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:37.599
And, you know, that became the way that it is because I worked on it.
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:39.119
And that's how most of us are.
00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:46.079
But until more of us start saying, I'm willing to deal with the backlash, which by the way, I have dealt with the backlash.
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:56.320
I my potentially, allegedly possibly mother called CPS on me multiple times, trying to say that my mental health was bad.
00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:59.360
Unfortunately for her, it wasn't.
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:02.480
And I was working on it and I was in a great standing.
00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:04.000
I've now graduated therapy.
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:09.280
My therapist is like, look, you can keep coming to me and spending$150 to tell me about your work.
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:10.320
You're graduating.
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:18.880
You're literally finding enough of what needs to happen on your own and in your coaching sessions with your professional coach that you pay.
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:19.280
Yep.
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:19.840
Yep.
00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:21.039
You don't need me.
00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:23.119
We don't need to talk about your past anymore.
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:24.000
It's not serving you.
00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:34.480
And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, you you know, you might I think that I just I felt like I heard for so long you need help that now I'm like, I just need help.
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:38.400
But the reality is, is I got the help and now I'm okay.
00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:41.199
Yeah, well, and that I think is a really big thing.
00:56:41.360 --> 00:56:44.079
What I want to say here is a couple things.
00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:52.400
So um I'm super monogamous because I'm a crazy jealous person, and it's just not my thing.
00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:54.480
And for you, it totally works.
00:56:54.639 --> 00:56:58.639
So I want to say that because I think that people don't understand it.
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:00.800
When they don't understand, they rip on things.
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:05.760
So I want to say, you that's you, you it works for you, not not my thing.
00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:08.239
So, like that it's not my wife's thing.
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:09.440
Just to put it out there.
00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:14.400
My wife is monogamous, my wife is like not interested in dating anyone, you know?
00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:17.440
So it's like it definitely isn't for everyone.
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:32.159
But at some point, when you start to learn who you are and you start to feel safe in those moments, I would not if I was still where I was four years ago, there is no fucking way I could have maintained two relationships because I would I would have imploded on myself.
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:33.119
Yes, yes.
00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:42.400
I think you know, number four, like just because somebody has been diagnosed with BPD doesn't mean that they are currently with BPD.
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:44.000
But that's what I think is really important.
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:49.920
Most people, um, this came from the book I hate you, don't leave me.
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:51.440
And it's a book about BPD.
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:52.480
It's an amazing book.
00:57:52.639 --> 00:58:05.280
If you have never read it, you should, even if you don't have BPD or know someone with BPD, because it's just a great tool to show you how to have better relationships, right?
00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:11.840
Um, but in that book, they talk about how most people by the age of 45 don't even have BPD anymore.
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:15.199
And it's because they've done the healing, they've done the work.
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:17.519
Because, like you said, it is an attachment disorder.
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:21.519
So once you learn to have a healthy attachment, you don't have disorder anymore.
00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:26.639
Well, and I think that's a really important thing to like discuss when we're talking about it.
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:32.159
And there's this really great nonprofit called Emotions Matter that we've worked with before.
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:34.880
They are fantastic, they talk about it.
00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:43.599
And I say this because it is an important, it's an important thing for people to understand that you should graduate from therapy.
00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:44.400
You should.
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:46.480
That is part of the healing and coaching.
00:58:46.639 --> 00:58:50.480
And coaching, like our job, and I'll say it once.
00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:57.840
I don't I don't like saying it because you know, income, but it is our job as coaches to work ourselves out of a job.
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:00.000
That's the that's the job.
00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:01.360
That's the job.
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:07.119
And I think that for a lot of people, there's a misnomer that you need to continue.
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:10.639
If you need to come back for a spot check, like go for it.
00:59:10.719 --> 00:59:13.599
I'll go my my Mac, I'll go for it.
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:14.639
Like, I'm all about it.
00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:16.079
Like, come back for a spot check.
00:59:16.159 --> 00:59:17.360
Same thing with therapy.
00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:25.199
There is a misnomer, I think, in the world right now where you have to go to therapy all the time.
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:28.639
If therapy serves you, fantastic, great, go.
00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:31.360
And you don't need to.
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:35.199
I also want to say healing is not a lifelong sentence.
00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:37.119
You can be done healing.
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:42.480
Growth, growth is a lifelong sentence, but healing does not.
00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:48.079
I I hear people say all the time, like, I'm gonna be healing forever because of my trauma.
00:59:48.559 --> 00:59:50.000
No, you're not.
00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:56.320
You're you'll only be healing forever because of your trauma if you choose to choose forever.
00:59:57.280 --> 01:00:24.239
I gotta get this, I've gotta make sure I put that clip up because I think from the West Wing, it's really important for people to understand that mental health is a choice, meaning if you if there is something that you I think that narcissists, this might be a you know, people might not like this, but I think that narcissists have a choice.
01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:29.440
Like they have a choice on whether or not they're gonna be some way.
01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:33.119
We had a choice to break the cycle, yes, and we did.
01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:37.039
We've broken the cycle, and that I think is a really important thing.
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:45.360
The other thing I want to pinpoint, and then I'm gonna continue on with our questions, and I don't care how long this goes, if we have to break it into two podcasts, I think that's fine.
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:49.920
Um coaching, or excuse me.
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:54.880
Um, you should graduate from therapy, like there should be a goal.
01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:58.000
This is where I want to be, this is where I am now, and that's fine.
01:00:58.079 --> 01:00:59.519
And come back and spot check.
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:00.960
That I'm all about that.
01:01:01.119 --> 01:01:02.559
I think that is a great thing.
01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:10.000
Um so now that we've blown that whole thing up and let people know that it's not forever.
01:01:10.159 --> 01:01:16.320
Um, what do you think are some signs that people are still in that survival mode?
01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:19.679
Even if they appear to be functional on the outside.
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:20.480
Yeah.
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:31.440
You know, I think it's important to say the reason I blow it up is because I think people deserve to know that they can do it on their own.
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:38.000
And if I make them feel like they have to constantly come to me, then then they never believe in themselves fully.
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:41.920
And that is what I want as a coach is for my clients to believe in themselves fully.
01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:42.480
Yes.
01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:47.119
Um, and I think that part of that comes with just recognizing.
01:01:47.280 --> 01:01:51.519
So, like, I think that that's the answer to your question is what can you recognize?
01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:52.719
What can you pull out?
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:55.840
What can you see that you didn't before?
01:01:56.079 --> 01:01:56.559
Mm-hmm.
01:01:57.440 --> 01:01:58.239
A hundred percent.
01:01:58.400 --> 01:01:59.280
I agree with that.
01:01:59.519 --> 01:02:04.239
You know, a lot of and we just talk, I just asked this question, so let me start another one.
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:10.079
Okay, how does a healthy relationship actually look and feel like to you now?
01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:12.719
Oh my gosh, this is one of my favorite topics.
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:13.039
Okay.
01:02:13.519 --> 01:02:19.280
I don't even get to talk about it enough because I spend so much of my time talking about the signs and signals of an unhealthy relationship.
01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:20.079
Yeah, yeah.
01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:30.320
Um, but a healthy relationship feels like a landing place with no requirement to land.
01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:31.840
Yep, that's it.
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:50.719
A healthy relationship looks like someone supporting you in who you are, what you want, and what you like without changing who they are, what they want, and what they like.
01:02:52.000 --> 01:03:03.440
Um, and I think it looks like it looks like healthy communication.
01:03:03.679 --> 01:03:08.079
It's not always happy, but it should never include yelling and screaming.
01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:15.199
It should never include a point where somebody doesn't feel heard or listened to.
01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:27.840
And I'm not saying that if that happens on occasion that you are not in a healthy relationship, I'm saying in that moment, your relationship is not healthy, and that's where you get to work on that spot next, right?
01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:29.920
Um, how can I do better?
01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:31.920
This is where that growth comes in.
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:37.920
It looks like constant growth, both together and individually.
01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:41.760
People forget a relationship is two people, not one.
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:48.320
And so there it has to be about you individually before it can be about you guys together.
01:03:48.639 --> 01:03:51.280
Yeah, I I totally agree with that.
01:03:51.599 --> 01:04:01.280
You know, if I could say what like physically what it feels like, I like the coming home spot, uh like coming home on landing space.
01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:08.719
I also like for me, like feelings, um, like materials are a big thing more recently.
01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:11.599
I think again, some of it has to do with perimenopause.
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:24.880
And I just read something about how if there was like severe trauma or something traumatic that happened in your life during perimenopause, it like starts to light up again, which I think is of course it does, and very interesting.
01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:37.039
But to me, like what a healthy relationship looks like is all the things you you said, and also like it feels like a warm blanket.
01:04:37.199 --> 01:04:42.480
Like, have you ever had those blankets that like it's just perfect?
01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:49.519
Like it lies over you and it's the correct weight, and it's like the correct feeling, and all those things.
01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:55.920
I think when I describe what a healthy relationship, that is one of the things I go to.
01:04:56.079 --> 01:05:07.360
The other one is and my daughter, um, my daughter's 30 and she has the best boundaries of anyone that I've ever met in regards to me as her mom.
01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:17.280
Um because of the abuse that I went through, because of the world that we live in, I'm always so nervous about her out in the world.
01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:23.039
But she's 30, she's an adult, you know, like she she at her age, I had a 12-year-old.
01:05:23.199 --> 01:05:24.639
Like, that's crazy.
01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:33.280
And so when maybe she's out on a date or she's out with her friends, and I'll be like, oh, hey, what are you doing?
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:37.920
Because we do have location for our kids, but it's more safety for us than anything.
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:40.800
Um, I'll be like, Oh, what are you doing up in blah blah blah?
01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:42.239
And she's like, Oh, I'm with my friend.
01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:44.079
I'm all okay, talk to you later.
01:05:44.239 --> 01:05:45.519
And then we leave it at that.
01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:53.920
Or she um lets me know what when she goes out on a date because she's just started dating again after a long term relationship.
01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:56.880
And she'll just kind of let me know, hey, by the way, I'm going out on a date.
01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:59.679
And she'll let my sister in law know who is closer her age.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:01.360
Just so that they know.
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:04.159
So we all know, but okay, we're going out on a date.
01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:09.199
And then like I never really ask her about it, which she usually gets upset about that I'm not asking.
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:14.159
But I I feel like that she'll tell me I don't want to intrude.
01:06:14.719 --> 01:06:15.119
Right.
01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:19.519
And that I think is a really important thing when you're talking about narcissistic parents.
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:24.400
There's a um the book by Jeanette McCurdy.
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:27.199
Um best book ever, dude.
01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:30.480
I made so many videos about that book.
01:06:30.719 --> 01:06:32.719
Yeah, my mom died.
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:34.159
Yeah, I'm glad my mom died.
01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:36.719
Also has a novel out that's really good too.
01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:38.320
I've seen it.
01:06:38.719 --> 01:06:42.559
It's totally different, totally different genre, but it's still her.
01:06:42.719 --> 01:06:45.039
And when I finish, I'm glad my mom died.
01:06:45.199 --> 01:06:48.320
The first thing I thought was, why isn't this book fucking three times longer?
01:06:48.559 --> 01:06:51.360
And so I was like, four years can I read her stuff?
01:06:52.880 --> 01:07:01.440
She talks about this enmeshment, about like crazy enmeshment that goes on in regards to her and her mom.
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:10.400
In regards to like we just went to my um youngest daughter's bar concert, her last one in high school.
01:07:10.639 --> 01:07:17.840
And I saw I could tell which kids had narcissistic parents based on the way that they were performing.
01:07:18.079 --> 01:07:22.960
Because you can tell a real performer, but then you can tell where things are performative.
01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:28.559
And that always is to me a really interesting thing to then watch them go to their parent.
01:07:28.719 --> 01:07:30.480
I'm like, oh yeah, of course, they're an arc.
01:07:30.639 --> 01:07:37.360
It's like because you can tell, you can tell by the moment when they see their kids, you can tell by the way their kids are interacting with them.
01:07:37.519 --> 01:07:41.840
That I think is a really important thing for people to think about because that's your first sign.
01:07:42.079 --> 01:07:54.719
Like there's a movie called the narcissistic playbook that is coming out, and early adopters get to hear uh or get to watch it in um, I think it's like a week before it gets released.
01:07:54.960 --> 01:08:05.599
And I think that there is a playbook, it just isn't as clear, but there is a playbook, and there is a moment that all of us where that mask comes off.
01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:30.000
And I say that because I'm sure you could tell me when that happened for you, and I could tell you when it happened for me, when all of a sudden, like if you were outside in public and she forgot that she was outside in public or she felt comfortable in her space, and that to me is really an important thing for people to like really focus on, you know.
01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:43.119
For listeners that haven't experienced the kind of love that you and I have experienced in our partners, in your wife and in my husband, what does that emotional consistency look like in practice?
01:08:47.119 --> 01:08:57.520
Um, I mean, I I think that it looks like always being them.
01:08:58.079 --> 01:09:00.720
Again, I I reiterate the separation.
01:09:01.199 --> 01:09:15.920
Um we get so comfortable with enmeshment on different levels that when we don't have it, we tend to think that it's we tend to think that it's actually a bad thing.
01:09:16.079 --> 01:09:17.279
Um, and it's not.
01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:28.079
So I think that um emotional consistency looks like being themselves even when you're not yourself.
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:47.439
Um, it means not allowing my wife and I say it all the time, like to each other, if I'm in a bad mood and she's like hyper and all over and everything, and I'll just look at her and be like, Look, I am just recognizing that you are in a great mood and I am not, and neither of us have to change.
01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:51.039
And I'm like, I'm just recognizing, I'm just putting it out there.
01:09:51.199 --> 01:09:51.760
Yeah, yeah.
01:09:51.920 --> 01:10:02.640
Um, because for a long time I would try to change, I would try to be happier, or I would be like angry that she was angry that she wasn't angry with me, you know?
01:10:02.800 --> 01:10:06.720
Like, um, so I had to separate them.
01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:17.760
It's a it's about separation, it's about really truly so the one of the very first steps, and kind of like all of my clients go through like this same general beginning rhythm.
01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:20.800
And it's who am I and how do I love myself?
01:10:20.960 --> 01:10:22.640
It's like the first two steps, right?
01:10:22.720 --> 01:10:29.680
Yeah, and so once you figure out who you are, and then you start to love yourself, that's when you start to do that enmeshment separation.
01:10:29.840 --> 01:10:35.920
Like you you no longer are enmeshing yourself with everyone around you in order for you to feel safe.
01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:42.800
Um, and that that's a big part of it, but it's it's happening even when it's hard, even when it's hard.
01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:55.199
Yeah, and I think that that's a really important thing because when you start to heal, it might not feel like you're healing, it might feel like something else because things are getting.
01:10:55.359 --> 01:11:02.800
I mean, really, let's let's have a real conversation about you went through some really complex trauma, like it was really complex.
01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:05.439
It is possible that you have CPTSD.
01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:07.760
It is quite possible, right?
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:20.159
And and oftentimes, um, we were just talking about BPD, those get those get diagnosed at the same time or diagnosed one or the other because they they look very similar.
01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:20.960
Yes.
01:11:21.439 --> 01:11:32.880
And so I say this because as you are starting to heal, if it doesn't feel quite like you think healing looks like in the movies, it's not going to, let me just say that.
01:11:33.039 --> 01:11:37.600
It's not gonna be sunshine and rainbows, you know, coming out of your mouth all the time.
01:11:37.680 --> 01:11:45.840
It's gonna be crying, it's gonna be frustration, it's gonna be uh being upset, understanding why you're upset, and processing it through that.
01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:47.279
That's all healing.
01:11:47.439 --> 01:11:50.239
It's all healing to become the person who you are.
01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:58.640
And I and I think that's really, really important because you were conditioned to be the way that you are you are before your healing process.
01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:19.039
Because the the abuser, the narcissist, our mothers wanted us to disconnect from who we really were, so that our warning sign that usually would come up of, you know, this is probably not a good idea, don't come up, or if they do, we say, Oh, shh, right.
01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:29.840
And so excuse me, how do people even begin to reconnect with themselves after experiencing this kind of trauma?
01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:45.119
One thing that um a lot of my clients find value in is role-playing different characters and seeing which one their nervous system reacts the best to.
01:12:45.600 --> 01:12:46.800
Oh, interesting.
01:12:47.279 --> 01:12:50.560
Pretending like you're somebody who likes fashion.
01:12:50.800 --> 01:12:51.600
How do you feel?
01:12:51.760 --> 01:12:59.840
Imagining that you walk into a Louis Vuitton store and you're purchasing all these fancy things and these high-quality, like high-end.
01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:01.520
Does that feel good?
01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:07.520
Or does your nervous system feel better when you think about going to volunteer at the local animal shelter?
01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:17.600
Um, a lot of the times, people who were raised in this way never got to think about experiencing things, let alone actually experiencing it.
01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:21.920
But the idea of going out and doing it feels so far from who they are.
01:13:22.079 --> 01:13:23.359
It's like impossible.
01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:24.720
It's uncomfortable.
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:28.560
Um, and so we we often start with like the smallest step.
01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:30.720
What's the first step?
01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:35.439
It's not going outside for a one mile run of a 10 mile run.
01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:36.399
That's not the first step.
01:13:36.479 --> 01:13:38.479
The first step is finding your fucking shoes.
01:13:38.560 --> 01:13:48.399
Because if you're like me, you probably left one downstairs and the other one you took off after running up the stairs because you realized you meant taking off the first one, you had to pee.
01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:49.359
Like, yeah, exactly.
01:13:49.520 --> 01:13:50.000
Exactly.
01:13:50.560 --> 01:13:52.000
So, so it's the first step.
01:13:52.159 --> 01:13:53.760
It's it's the very first step.
01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:54.479
What is that?
01:13:54.640 --> 01:14:01.359
And and oftentimes it's imagining like, okay, well, if I could be anyone that would be the most comfortable, who is it?
01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:08.640
And and just like going to a new store, sometimes you have to try on a few different pairs of jeans before you find one that makes your butt look good.
01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:09.920
Yeah, exactly.
01:14:10.159 --> 01:14:11.199
Yes, thank you.
01:14:11.359 --> 01:14:13.119
I think that's a really important thing.
01:14:13.760 --> 01:14:23.439
And the and the reason why we do these podcasts is because I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and the person I'm interviewing might be their cup of tea to be their coach.
01:14:23.600 --> 01:14:25.680
And that I think is a really important thing.
01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:30.159
You can interview your coaches, you can figure out what works for you.
01:14:30.319 --> 01:14:30.960
What works for your own.
01:14:31.119 --> 01:14:32.000
You can't do better.
01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:32.960
Yeah, right.
01:14:33.199 --> 01:14:37.279
Do you first of all, even with a sliding scale, coaching isn't cheap.
01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:39.279
Okay, we don't have to pretend like it is.
01:14:39.840 --> 01:14:42.560
So, yes, you need to be interviewing your coach.
01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:50.880
You need to you need to go to free discovery calls with multiple coaches and figure out which one you showed up and said, I needed this.
01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:55.680
And then at the end of the session, you actually had it because that's the one you need to go with.
01:14:55.920 --> 01:15:01.840
And just like you were saying earlier, therapy and coaching, like you might need it now, and then you don't, and then you do again.
01:15:02.079 --> 01:15:06.319
This coach might be good for you now, and in six months, it's not a good fit anymore.
01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:07.920
They can just be for the season.
01:15:08.560 --> 01:15:09.600
Yeah, exactly.
01:15:09.920 --> 01:15:17.760
You know, um, we've interviewed a couple therapists that talk about how you can coach and therapy at the same time, which I think is a really thing.
01:15:17.920 --> 01:15:19.279
There shouldn't be any.
01:15:20.079 --> 01:15:21.039
It was really interesting.
01:15:21.119 --> 01:15:26.079
I was in this group, I um admin this group of daughters who have narcissistic mothers.
01:15:26.239 --> 01:15:30.560
There's like 7,500 women, it's a Facebook group.
01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:38.640
And so me and three other admins, we don't let anybody do self-promotion because we can't review it, but we put things in a like a newsletter.
01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:41.600
I'll create a little newsletter monthly, people can put it out.
01:15:41.760 --> 01:15:47.039
But I will put up my discounts to be like, hey, if anybody wants to do this, you know, just for space.
01:15:47.199 --> 01:15:55.039
And I did like a holiday one as a result of this is gonna sound crazy, as a result of just helping people out, right?
01:15:55.199 --> 01:15:58.800
And so this woman like said, How is this different?
01:15:58.960 --> 01:16:00.399
Why are you saying that you can do trauma?
01:16:00.479 --> 01:16:03.199
Blah blah blah and I was like, Whoa, like, why are you attacking me?
01:16:03.359 --> 01:16:04.880
Like, okay, that's fine.
01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:10.159
And I said, I never said I was a therapist, I never said I was going to fix their traumas.
01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:12.880
What I said was, this is support.
01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:20.720
If you want it, we can do it from here to like for the next six weeks for this class because holidays are hard, they're hard.
01:16:21.439 --> 01:16:26.800
And they are, and we do like I do some stuff on WhatsApp so that it's really easy.
01:16:26.880 --> 01:16:31.439
So if the person's in the situation, they can like message and I can help them through the process.
01:16:31.600 --> 01:16:34.880
It's very removed, but also very in it.
01:16:35.439 --> 01:16:37.119
And so she started ripping on me.
01:16:37.279 --> 01:16:42.960
And because as Domes of Narcissistic Mothers, we have a high sense of justice.
01:16:43.359 --> 01:16:50.479
Um, my fellow admin, who I love to death, would like we would have never ever been friends outside of this.
01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:54.159
Not because she's not lovely, just because we don't have anything in common.
01:16:54.399 --> 01:16:56.880
And she's like, I saw that lady do that to you.
01:16:56.960 --> 01:16:58.079
I kicked her from the group.
01:16:58.239 --> 01:17:01.920
I was like, okay, this is where it gets interesting.
01:17:02.239 --> 01:17:04.880
So this one woman messages me.
01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:06.479
It's not the same woman.
01:17:07.039 --> 01:17:18.399
This one woman messages me on Facebook and says, Hey, I see that you're part of this group and you posted something, but then you're not, you can't be a part of the group.
01:17:18.479 --> 01:17:23.760
I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something where like receipts were really easy to pull up.
01:17:24.159 --> 01:17:28.239
And so I said, Okay, um, who are you?
01:17:28.399 --> 01:17:29.680
And what group are you talking about?
01:17:29.760 --> 01:17:31.359
She's all, oh, it was this group.
01:17:31.439 --> 01:17:32.720
And then she's all, oh, never mind.
01:17:32.800 --> 01:17:34.960
I was all okay, you're not gonna gaslight me.
01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:40.720
The group, other group was it another like recovering from a narcissistic mom group.
01:17:40.960 --> 01:17:43.760
So I was really surprised that this woman did this.
01:17:44.720 --> 01:17:49.039
I said, Are you are you reaching out to me based on this post?
01:17:49.520 --> 01:17:54.960
I said, another admin decided to remove her from the group because this isn't her first infraction.
01:17:55.199 --> 01:18:00.000
She's done this to other people, she's been mean and rude to other people, and we just don't do that.
01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:09.680
Like ours is always like um be nice or be kind, and if you feel like you can't, scroll on by, like, shut the fuck up and scroll by, right?
01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:17.920
And so yeah, she tried to act like I was doing something in another group and act like I was the problem.
01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:23.439
And I was like, okay, but if you look here, like scroll up in our conversation.
01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:25.520
This is not the first time you and I have talked.
01:18:25.840 --> 01:18:29.600
I talked to you about um this other thing that I was doing.
01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:33.119
I asked if I could post in the group because it says no self-promotion.
01:18:33.439 --> 01:18:36.479
And I wanted to ask, hey, do one of you want to put this up?
01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:39.039
And you said, you know, that might be a self-promotion.
01:18:39.199 --> 01:18:40.159
I said, Cool, awesome.
01:18:40.239 --> 01:18:41.279
I'm not gonna do that then.
01:18:41.439 --> 01:18:43.439
I'm not gonna break the rules.
01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:46.880
And she was like, Oh, well, and then she blocked me.
01:18:47.279 --> 01:18:51.439
This person who was trying to call me out for something else that didn't happen that I had the receipts on.
01:18:51.600 --> 01:18:55.359
I was like, did this bitch just gaslight me and block me?
01:18:55.920 --> 01:18:58.159
Like, really, okay.
01:18:58.399 --> 01:19:08.720
And I think these are some of the things that you know really get really get amplified as you we start to do the work, right?
01:19:08.880 --> 01:19:19.600
Where we start to see where gaslighting comes into effect, where we start to see the flying monkeys, or we start to see like the narcissism like really fall differently.
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:25.520
And if you see it, welcome to the club, and you're never gonna unsee it.
01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:27.920
Yeah, that is the thing.
01:19:28.159 --> 01:19:34.720
Yeah, and you know, we've used some terms in here that I think most people would know, but not everyone, and I don't like to assume.
01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:35.680
So let's do that.
01:19:35.920 --> 01:19:45.920
Gaslighting, that's that's where someone tries to change your perception of your reality for their benefit, right?
01:19:46.079 --> 01:19:46.319
Yes.
01:19:46.560 --> 01:19:52.399
So you say you hurt my feelings because you did blah blah blah, and they say, No, I didn't.
01:19:52.560 --> 01:19:57.199
You just took it that way, and you hurt my feelings because you did blah blah blah.
01:19:57.359 --> 01:19:59.840
That's a shout out to my grandfather, by the way.
01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:00.640
Hey, Pat.
01:20:01.359 --> 01:20:03.840
Um, that's gaslighting, okay?
01:20:04.079 --> 01:20:04.560
Oh my god.
01:20:04.800 --> 01:20:05.199
Oh my god.
01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:06.800
Flying monkey, right?
01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:14.239
A flying monkey is somebody who is unintentionally, they do not usually know that they are doing this.
01:20:14.319 --> 01:20:16.239
It is actually a form of abuse.
01:20:16.399 --> 01:20:18.960
So they are being abused, but they don't realize it.
01:20:19.119 --> 01:20:23.199
And what they usually do is the dirty word for the narcissist.
01:20:23.359 --> 01:20:30.399
Yeah, they say things, they spread things, they might come to you and say you just need to forgive her and move on.
01:20:30.479 --> 01:20:31.359
It's been long enough.
01:20:31.520 --> 01:20:33.039
That's a shout out to my sister.
01:20:33.119 --> 01:20:34.159
Hey, girl.
01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:37.199
Um, so that's a flying monkey.
01:20:37.279 --> 01:20:37.520
Yes.
01:20:37.680 --> 01:20:43.840
Um, and then I and then the other one we've said a lot or that I want to point out is triangulation.
01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:45.039
Can we talk about that?
01:20:45.359 --> 01:20:46.399
Yes, let's talk about triangle.
01:20:46.640 --> 01:20:55.680
Triangulation is when somebody comes to you and gets you to turn on the other person and also be a part of it.
01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:10.720
Um, this happens when your let's say mother goes to your sister and starts telling her how she needs to step up and say this to you and tell you to do this and tell you to forgive her because it's been long enough.
01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:11.760
Yeah, yes.
01:21:11.920 --> 01:21:13.680
She thinks this about you and blah blah blah.
01:21:13.920 --> 01:21:15.119
She mean girls.
01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:19.520
To get you to like, yeah, yeah, it's to get you to fight and to take their side.
01:21:19.680 --> 01:21:24.319
So it's like it's it's like a double whammy kind of.
01:21:24.560 --> 01:21:29.039
Um, and so that again, another form of abuse.
01:21:29.199 --> 01:21:38.720
So if someone is using you for triangulation, that you're actually being abused by this is emotional and um psychological manipulation and abuse.
01:21:38.960 --> 01:21:40.399
So just be aware of that.
01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:45.600
Um and telling somebody, hey, you're you're being a flying monkey is not gonna work.
01:21:45.680 --> 01:21:46.800
So just hold your breath.
01:21:47.039 --> 01:21:48.880
They don't, they don't, they don't know.
01:21:49.119 --> 01:22:03.600
No, they don't understand because they number one, oftentimes the narcissist will pick someone who thinks that will create a flying monkey that has low self-esteem and wants to like be, you know, this amazing person.
01:22:03.760 --> 01:22:12.640
So if you're like, oh, you're just a flying monkey, they've already inserted this, all this pump them up full of like that they're special, that they're never gonna listen to you.
01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:18.800
So the best thing you can do is step out of the situation and just say, Boundaries, okay, yeah, and yeah, and block them.
01:22:18.960 --> 01:22:25.119
Block them if it if they're on you know social media, block them if they're on your phone, block them, don't answer the phone call.
01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:28.640
If they show up at your house, say, you know, no, thank you.
01:22:28.800 --> 01:22:32.399
Yeah, sell somewhere else because they don't understand it.
01:22:32.479 --> 01:22:36.640
And the best thing you could do to save them is just push it away.
01:22:36.720 --> 01:22:40.479
Yeah, it goes back to what you were saying at the beginning, like that it's their battle.
01:22:40.640 --> 01:22:44.880
This is their task, they have to figure it out, they have to see it.
01:22:45.199 --> 01:22:49.199
Um, and you know, I only believe in stepping in if it involves a child.
01:22:49.359 --> 01:22:55.359
If it involves a child, you step in because a child is not responsible for seeing these things, they need the outside.
01:22:55.840 --> 01:22:59.520
They don't have the tools, they don't have the tools or the life lessons.
01:22:59.840 --> 01:23:07.600
If it's another adult, you just have to let it take its course because just like you weren't gonna wake up any sooner than you did, they aren't going to either.
01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:12.800
And all it does is create more of a riff in your relationship and more stress and anxiety for you.
01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:18.960
And right now you're in a position where you need to be focused on your healing and your growth and your safety.
01:23:19.279 --> 01:23:31.520
Well, and I think another thing, like, and I take take this from the AA model because I've had people in my life who have come to me because one of the steps is to say sorry, right?
01:23:32.079 --> 01:23:43.119
And I think that as people are coming out of the haze of the flying monkey haze, you know, and saying, I'm not gonna be your flying monkey anymore if that does happen.
01:23:43.359 --> 01:23:46.720
And they come to you because they should come to you and say sorry.
01:23:46.960 --> 01:23:50.000
Like I think that's something that's really important that they do.
01:23:50.479 --> 01:23:54.079
This is not the time for you to kick them when they're down.
01:23:54.640 --> 01:23:57.279
Like to say, I appreciate you saying sorry.
01:23:57.439 --> 01:24:01.039
And at some point we can have a discussion about how that's hurt me.
01:24:01.279 --> 01:24:05.119
And I know that you're hurt and you're going through your process.
01:24:05.359 --> 01:24:10.880
So I'm so proud of you for understanding come back to me when you want to chat.
01:24:11.119 --> 01:24:14.720
That's a really, really important thing, you know, for a lot of people.
01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:30.159
And you know, one thing I want to say about triangulation is it is so sinister, so sinister, because oftentimes it happens with siblings in smear campaigns, in smear campaigns.
01:24:30.319 --> 01:24:38.800
And I will say, like, going back to the narcissists, they're like a piece of shit if they're gonna use you know your own blood or DNA.
01:24:38.960 --> 01:24:41.680
Like I saw that happen with my mom at my grandpa's funeral.
01:24:41.760 --> 01:24:54.399
Man, she had a whole smear campaign, every single person, not her family, by the way, my husband my dad's family, because my mom immigrated from the Philippines and they became her like family here.
01:24:54.960 --> 01:25:02.239
Of course, because she was married to my dad, but she literally went to every single one of my grandpa's um sisters and talked shit about me.
01:25:02.399 --> 01:25:06.960
Every one of my grandma, my grandpa's nieces and nephews, and talked shit about me.
01:25:07.039 --> 01:25:09.680
And I was like, what the hell is she doing?
01:25:09.920 --> 01:25:17.279
Like, they literally saw me get up, speak about my grandpa, all those things, and and she's there talking shit about me.
01:25:17.520 --> 01:25:19.680
I I was like, okay, I'm peaceing out.
01:25:19.760 --> 01:25:21.039
This is you know, no more.
01:25:21.199 --> 01:25:22.560
I'm no more of this.
01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:25.840
So I want to close.
01:25:26.479 --> 01:25:28.479
I've been starting to close with two things.
01:25:28.560 --> 01:25:33.520
I always ask one question that's the same, but I've been doing a a speed round of questions.
01:25:33.840 --> 01:25:35.520
It's called trauma and cheese made.
01:25:35.680 --> 01:25:39.520
Cheese is gossip for all of you who don't speak Spanish.
01:25:40.079 --> 01:25:42.560
It is the most important word that you will need to know.
01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:44.319
Cheese, the gossip, right?
01:25:44.399 --> 01:25:46.720
So trauma and cheese may all right.
01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:50.640
Um, so tell me what music instantly hypes you up?
01:25:50.960 --> 01:25:54.159
Anything heavy metal, as long as it's screaming at me.
01:25:54.640 --> 01:25:55.439
I love it.
01:25:55.600 --> 01:25:59.199
Um, something small that instantly makes your day better.
01:26:00.399 --> 01:26:02.960
When my son tells me that he's proud of me.
01:26:03.279 --> 01:26:05.359
Oh, I'm gonna cry.
01:26:05.520 --> 01:26:10.079
What is your comfort show, our food, our comfort thing that you like?
01:26:10.640 --> 01:26:16.159
Okay, so if it's bedtime, my we watch um guys' grocery games every night.
01:26:16.479 --> 01:26:17.600
I love cooking.
01:26:17.840 --> 01:26:22.319
Um, if it's like during the day, right now it's reruns of Hannah Montana.
01:26:22.720 --> 01:26:23.680
I love that.
01:26:23.840 --> 01:26:24.720
I love it.
01:26:24.960 --> 01:26:25.680
I love it.
01:26:25.920 --> 01:26:30.479
Which, if I could get uh Miley Cyrus on the show, that would be amazing.
01:26:30.640 --> 01:26:32.319
She probably has some shit to say.
01:26:32.479 --> 01:26:34.800
I would that is cheese made right there.
01:26:35.359 --> 01:26:35.760
Yes.
01:26:36.399 --> 01:26:40.800
What's something about healing that people don't talk about enough?
01:26:41.680 --> 01:26:47.439
You're responsible for it, nobody else is, and you have to stop playing the victim before you can start healing.
01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:52.000
Um what's one thing you hope listeners take away from this conversation today?
01:26:52.319 --> 01:26:54.159
You have the power, they do not.
01:26:54.319 --> 01:26:57.039
You just have to decide to start fucking using it.
01:26:57.439 --> 01:26:58.399
I love it.
01:26:58.800 --> 01:26:59.920
Thank you so much.
01:27:00.079 --> 01:27:03.039
I've so utterly enjoyed this conversation.
01:27:03.199 --> 01:27:10.159
Yeah, and we will have to have you back on again in a year or so, see how things are going.
01:27:10.319 --> 01:27:19.359
And I want to do like a whole like round table of women healing from narcissistic mothers because I think that would be a super cool thing.
01:27:19.600 --> 01:27:20.720
So thank you.
01:27:20.960 --> 01:27:23.840
Um, and we will be in touch soon.
01:27:24.560 --> 01:27:29.520
If you were raised by a narcissistic mother, remember what Lena said today.
01:27:29.760 --> 01:27:31.840
You have the power, they do not.
01:27:32.079 --> 01:27:40.159
Healing is learning to trust yourself, untangling what you were taught to survive, and building a life where you can finally decide who you are.
01:27:40.479 --> 01:27:42.800
Thank you, Lena, for joining us today.
01:27:43.199 --> 01:27:46.640
Thank you for listening to the Beyond Mommy Dares podcast.
01:27:46.880 --> 01:27:55.760
If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a five-star review, and share it with someone who could use a little hope today.
01:27:56.000 --> 01:28:02.399
To learn more about coaching, upcoming events, and our growing community, visit the links in the show notes.
01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:11.039
Until next time, keep choosing yourself, keep healing, and remember, you are worthy of love, peace, and a life beyond survival.
01:28:11.439 --> 01:28:17.279
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