WEBVTT
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:12.400
You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shaped your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:14.720
I'm your host, Melani Pearl Hernandez.
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:24.960
This episode is sponsored by the Happy Canabouts, body products designed to help you on your healing journey by supporting your nervous system with every application.
00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:30.160
Today's conversation is one I've been looking forward to for a long time.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:39.759
After watching Netflix, Trust Me, the False Prophet, I couldn't stop thinking about the striking similarities between cult leaders and narcissistic parents.
00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:47.039
The manipulation, the coercive control, the gaslighting, the isolation, the way victims slowly lose trust in themselves.
00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:48.560
Today I'm joined by Dr.
00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:54.880
Christine Marie, whose courage helped expose one of the most dangerous modern cult leaders, Samuel Bateman.
00:00:55.119 --> 00:01:03.920
Working alongside law enforcement, she risked her own safety to help rescue women and children trapped in psychological and spiritual abuse.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:04.640
Dr.
00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:23.920
Christine, I'm so happy that I get to speak to you, not just because I love Pink so much and you make me so happy every time I see you, but because of your enormous amounts of strength and your heroinism in this uh huge, huge story that we're going to talk about.
00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:25.519
So thank you for being here.
00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:26.640
My pleasure.
00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.040
I'm really happy to be on your podcast.
00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:38.159
Um you know, one of the things that we um so we talk about narcissism and narcissism and mothers.
00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:53.680
And one of the things that I found through my research is that cult leaders um very much share some of the same um attitudes, some of the same personality that um narcissistic mothers do.
00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:59.920
And we've had other people on, like um Mark Vicente when he was talking about Nexium.
00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:13.039
Um, at that same time or around then, I was watching uh Trust Me False Prophets on Netflix and was blown away by your palm, your every by everything.
00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:31.120
So for those who don't know, um, and you alluded to it a little bit before Sam Bateman and the false prophet, um, you had your own story in surviving um a cult and changing the way you kind of recognize what was happening in Short Creek.
00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:33.439
So can you talk a little bit about that?
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:43.039
Yeah, so I was a divorced single mother, and I wanted to be the very best Mormon I could be.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:48.560
And I got interested in polygamy because that was one of the higher laws.
00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:52.400
As you know, the mainstream Mormon church broke off.
00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:57.039
I mean, the fundamentalists broke off on the mainstream Mormon Church over polygamy.
00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:06.879
So I was open to it, and I met somebody, I wasn't looking for it, I was just open to it.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:10.319
So I met somebody when I was searching for Mr.
00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:16.000
Wright, who happened to have been a polygamist.
00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:19.840
Um, and is that good English?
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.199
What happened to happen in a minute?
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:28.719
Anyway, so um, and I I got lured into his story, and I believed it was true.
00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:42.319
He had written some documents which I believed were true, and I believed he was a new prophet, and next thing you know, I'm obeying the prophet at the peril of my life.
00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:43.280
Wow.
00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:51.599
What um what was there a moment or was there a moment that while you were recording this documentary?
00:03:51.759 --> 00:04:00.479
Because a lot of it, uh my assumption is because it happens to me as I'm doing these podcasts, like a lot of the trauma kind of rebuilds up for me.
00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:09.840
And so when did this stop really being a documentary in the documentary that we saw to becoming a rescue mission for all those wonderful women?
00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:24.560
Well, it didn't start as a documentary, it started as um a ruse to get evidence.
00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:37.600
We were working on a different documentary, okay, right, about the FLDS, and Sam saw pieces of it because Toby showed him, and then Sam wanted to be in that one.
00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:47.680
So the more Sam filmed, the more he wanted to film because it you know talked about narcissism.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.160
Right, it fed into his narcissism.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:51.680
Right.
00:04:51.839 --> 00:05:31.839
And in fact, I was uh very much against a documentary on Sam for a long time, and I even have it, I just noticed it in the past couple of weeks that I even had have it in some of my um uh legal documents that I mean things that I shared with law enforcement because media was camping outside their house, and my fear was that if the story became big before we had the investigation button down, that he would move away with everybody, and he was gathering passports and there was a budget for a plane, he's a pilot.
00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.639
Oh my goodness, and they he kept going to Mexico for some reason.
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:44.160
So we were afraid that if this became big before he was arrested, that that we might lose it.
00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:47.920
So it was not a documentary and then a rescue mission.
00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.120
It was first and foremost a rescue mission.
00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:52.399
Yeah, absolutely.
00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.199
That that's amazing.
00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:09.120
Uh you know, it looking back, and for those of you who haven't watched it, you have to watch it, listen to the podcast, and then watch it again, because that's what I'm gonna do to kind of look back at what was going on.
00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:15.040
And was there ever a point where you thought, oh my goodness, we're gonna need to walk away?
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.160
This is just too dangerous for me and my husband.
00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:24.720
Um it was definitely dangerous.
00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:37.279
The option of walking away was not something that we seriously entertained, but we had times where we couldn't keep going for a while.
00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:39.120
I had to go in therapy.
00:06:39.199 --> 00:07:11.519
I also used my, you know, the FBI special agent as a cry on her shoulder, and I needed to get a lot of support because I just felt that complexity of knowing that they were victims when they didn't know it, knowing that they were going to suffer more when they learned that I'm the one that shed a light on their prophet's crimes to authorities, and he was taken away.
00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.560
The father of their children was taken away because of me.
00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:25.439
You know, so I just knew the betrayal and the harm that they would feel was caused by me and didn't know if any of them would ever stop hating me.
00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:41.680
You know, and I know that this is not a question that's on our list of things, but I I because I follow the girls, I know that you have a close relationship with uh many of them, and they're flourishing.
00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:48.560
And in fact, it's one of their birthdays today, and it's it's just such a lovely thing to see the growth.
00:07:48.720 --> 00:08:13.680
And I I I think that for a lot of people, a lot of women, a lot of uh men that have been children of narcissistic parents, that the that thought process of them not understanding that they're in an abusive relationship and people trying to slowly dissect them out of it is probably one of the biggest fears that the opposite parent has.
00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.879
I know for my dad, he never really talked about my mom being like that.
00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:30.240
And so I think that that that feeling that you just said like is a very like it hits me really deeply because I I I can see that.
00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:47.840
You know, I always am amazed by men like Sam Bateman or other cult leaders that believe that they are the prophet, um, or that they proclaim that.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:51.679
So do you think that he really believed the prophet that he was a prophet?
00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:55.679
Or did no okay, so he knew what he was doing.
00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:22.320
That is my belief because one of his one of his themes was that Warren Jeffs was not in prison, that it was a mannequin there, that he actually was this immortal person now, like he'd gone through uh this process that Warren's believing called um translation, and that he was some kind of immortal person who could speak to him.
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.039
So he knew that wasn't true.
00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:27.759
He knew Warren Jess wasn't appearing talking to him.
00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:34.559
He knew that if Warren Jess had actually died, that it would be world news.
00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:45.039
Every little thing is world news in this town, and if Warren Jess had died, he wouldn't everybody would know, and there would be a big funeral and he'd be in the cemetery.
00:09:45.440 --> 00:10:08.960
But no, I don't believe that he knew, I mean that he believed that he was a prophet, and he just I believe he was a natural predator from his childhood, he was aggressive as a child, and I believe that he just figured out how he could gain control over the people who believed in him.
00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:16.879
You know, it was interesting while I was watching the documentary when it first came out, there was this look that he had.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:31.840
There's like this specific look that people who have been in narcissistic relationships or have been through this kind of cult leader um like brainwashing that he just had he had that look.
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:47.039
Or if one of the girls he believed was misbehaving, there was this look that like just sent chills down my spine because it was the same look that I would get if I was acting like a kid and I was doing something my mom didn't like.
00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:48.559
And it was interesting.
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.080
I didn't expect that watching something like that.
00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.679
I didn't expect it.
00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:56.559
Yeah, we caught it.
00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:14.000
So he he made me nervous when there was this one time when we were in the greenhouse, which is where Sam was with all of his wives, a two-bedroom house with you know like 20 wives and all these children.
00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:23.919
And he said something, and one of the one of his wives corrected it and said, That's not what you said before, before you said something or other.
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:29.519
And I thought, oh no, oh no, she's gonna get reamed.
00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:42.559
And I don't know what happened, but I did learn that when we would leave, he would his word was rebuke, which means humiliate, insult, destroy.
00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:54.639
He would be, you know, be picking them apart because he wanted to put on this perfect show, and so they would go through you know difficult times if they weren't perfect when they were with us.
00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:09.840
Gosh, that and you know, every time I do an interview, whether male, female, or with a person who survived a cult, that those things ring true when you're dealing with a narcissistic mother.
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:27.120
And I think for a lot of people who have narcissistic parents or a narcissistic romantic relationship, are you know they're in a cult to know that their community, the people they can lean on, is vastly larger than that person makes it.
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:44.639
There's uh, you know, uh so many people out there, and you know, when I watched him, and if someone is watching him and watching him speak, there are subtle behaviors that would tell them to pay attention to him.
00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:47.519
What what did you see the in those behaviors?
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:49.840
Like what did he do specifically?
00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:57.200
Well, for one thing, he would cut people off while they were talking and tell them what they're supposed to say, right?
00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:02.960
You know, I mean we caught a little bit of that that made it on the documentary.
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:14.879
Now, let me remind you, Toga and I filmed, but we were filming primarily for the for law enforcement, hoping to catch evidence, and we didn't filter what we filmed, we just gave it all.
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:26.000
But um, in that process, he I mean, we would sometimes catch him slipping up and we would catch that look.
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:38.480
So we didn't know exactly what was gonna end up in the final documentary because we just entrusted the footage to a uh production company and they put it all together and we didn't even see it until two weeks before it came out.
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:46.879
So when I say it made it into something made it into the documentary, it's because we're not the ones that built the story out of the footage.
00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:58.480
So, but yeah, a couple things did show up in there in where he's you know um telling people, you know, what to say.
00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:14.960
But another thing he would do is send people over to our house, or they would come on their own because they knew it would please him, have them talk about how much they loved him on camera.
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:32.559
You know, Sam was not allowed, Sam did not allow the girls to be vain, they couldn't primp in the mirror for very long, like or even look at themselves in the mirror, they wouldn't let the children see pictures of themselves on the phone because they would become vain.
00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:50.720
But when it came to him, you know, he was having his hair dyed, and people, you know, before the before we filmed him one time, he was getting all primed up and you know, but this white jacket that they told us was fifteen thousand dollars.
00:14:50.879 --> 00:15:10.240
And I'm thinking, yeah, you know, and he's eating dinner like at his birthday or anniversary things, he would be sitting there like a king eating while everybody else is working or singing or serving him, at least for a while.
00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:15.600
And I mean, the fact that the whole world revolved around him, he was centered.
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:24.320
So there was something going on that let those wives know you center Sam or you're in trouble.
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:37.360
You know, I I laugh because I'm gonna try to say this as nicely as as possible, but Sam is not a good looking guy.
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:45.919
Like he's he's just he's not, and you know, I um I think my husband is incredibly handsome.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:16:04.799
So I am always shocked when someone like Sam can convince someone, and not just one person, he convinced an entire community that he was, you know, the bee's knees, that he was like the he's the one.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:12.080
And I like I don't even know how you would begin to accomplish something like that.
00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:14.960
Like what sorry, go ahead.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:50.559
I I believe it was because he took over the mantle of the prophet, and it was really his position that they fell for, not then once they did, they wanted to see him that way, and you know, they had confirmation bias, they would see everything that he did and as if it was an appropriate thing for a prophet to do, and they were prophets' wives, or they were you know men that stood up for the prophet.
00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:58.960
So I don't think it was his personality, I do think it was his deceptiveness, and he was confident too.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.960
That confidence becomes a sneeze, hang on.
00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:04.720
No worries.
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:08.160
Oh, I think I'm not gonna sneeze.
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:29.440
Um sorry, no, it's okay, but but his confidence went a long way because as honest people, we don't expect another human being to do something as bold as pretend you are a prophet speaking to God himself.
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:42.720
So when we have believed that for generations and we finally meet someone, it I mean, many FLDS did say that you know that's a crock of shit.
00:17:42.799 --> 00:18:02.559
I mean, it didn't shit, but you know, yeah, they they were like would have nothing to do with it, but for the people who who opened their minds to the possibility and ended up believing in him, they would then see everything from that lens because they were hungry for certainty.
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:18.799
Their prophet wasn't communicating with them anymore, and here you know, Sam represented this is a way you can get communications with the current prophet, and so they were just so hungry for that.
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:21.440
That makes sense.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:29.039
You know, why why do you think that people didn't see the red flags at the same time?
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.000
Why do you think it took like dribs and drabs for them?
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:41.680
So because I saw the I saw you could see when the girls started to kind of come out of it, come out of that haze is what we call it, that narcissistic haze.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:44.160
But some of them didn't come out right away.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:55.200
And I attributed some of it to them being young, but why do you think that everyone didn't see the red flags at the same time?
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.240
Well, I think it's because of groupthink.
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:33.920
They were in a fishbowl where everybody was monitoring everybody else, and then you have some very smart and college-educated women in that group that were mothers saying their testimonies, you know, um, declaring their beliefs and interpreting coincidences and things that they see happen in their lives, like nature, it it's they're giving meaning to random events and using it as data that he's really the real thing.
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:41.279
So people are trusting in uh the words of others, it's called social proof.
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.720
When you see everybody else doing something, you think it's okay?
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:54.960
And I think the fact that they were all together and all confirming the same um story, it made it hard to say, no, they're all wrong.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:02.960
You know, was there one lie that seemed to kind of unlock that complete obedience from his followers?
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:09.759
Like, what was the one thing that if you just weren't sure he came with the lie and then that was it?
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:16.960
Remember when he was in front of us, he put on a you know, he put on a show.
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:17.759
Yeah.
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:18.559
Yeah.
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:25.839
But I do know that he required everybody to obey, be obedient.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:35.920
And he also had them doing affirmations, writing affirmations like it was um punishment in high school.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.160
You know, he would read over and over pages and pages and pages.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.279
Like I love Samuel Rappeli Bateman.
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:43.920
I love Samuel.
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.720
He is my I will obey, I will obey father.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.440
Call him father, I will obey father, I will obey father.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:56.960
You would have to write that morning and night, pages and pages of the same sentence over and over and over.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.720
That's that is maddening.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:16.400
I mean, you know, when I was back way back when, since I'm turning 50 next year, way back when I was in grade school, we would get lines when we would do something, we would get in trouble or something was going on, and we would say, we can't be led to class or whatever it was.
00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:19.920
And you know, we sure as heck weren't late then.
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.839
We you know, we listened and we went.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:36.240
So of course, of course, mean especially for the girls who were younger, that would absolutely convince them to obey or whatever things that yeah, he was asking.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:37.119
Go ahead, sorry.
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.960
Well, he would humiliate them if they didn't.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:55.279
And they were all walking on eggshells because they were afraid to get rebuked in front of the other girls, and it would be a very devastating experience for them.
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.200
So he had them uh like a scared.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.279
pack of kittens.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:08.480
And whatever he said they want they wanted to do it, they he pressured them to be able to predict what he wanted.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:10.400
So he didn't even have to tell them.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:12.640
It was incredibly controlling.
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:28.880
Gosh, you know, and and you mentioned that you're a mother and I'm a mother and I can't imagine who could convince me as a parent to to surrender any of my daughters, even on the days that they have the worst attitudes.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:31.680
I wouldn't do it, right?
00:22:31.839 --> 00:23:11.920
And so how do you think he convinced all of those mothers and fathers to surrender his those daughters to him like in Mormon culture, including mainstream church, you start from childhood singing songs like follow the prophet hearing talks in Sunday school and and the all the general conference meetings about the importance of following the prophet and the FLDS were no different.
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:20.240
And there is a belief that if you do not follow the prophet you will be destroyed.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:29.119
So the key was the amount of faith that they had in him being a prophet.
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.400
I I had that same experience.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:49.599
I was a mother I was educated and a little and I believed if I did not do what my prophet wanted me to do that I would suffer eternal consequences.
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:52.799
And he separated me from my children for a while.
00:23:53.039 --> 00:24:06.079
I didn't give them away or give them up but he wanted me to and you know so something in me found a workaround on how I could not how I could how I could get away with not doing that.
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:28.400
But I think that because they were the women were you know raised in a patriarchal society that they what they thought was not as important as obeying their husband I know that Julia did not want any of her girls to go to Sam.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:38.960
And she expressed that but then she suffered the consequences as a result of it and then he started marrying her daughters without her even knowing.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:46.319
So it's more nuanced than it looks it's not like all of a sudden he said give me your children and they said yes.
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:46.799
Right.
00:24:46.960 --> 00:25:01.119
You know there were battles and struggles and well and I think that because um you know FDLS is so um a lot of people don't know much about it.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:12.079
Like what we know about Mormonism often is that people they're the people who come to the door and they come and do you know the prayers with you in your living room.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.799
And as they they don't really know much more to it.
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:30.160
And it sounds like especially in this sec, in this cult in this with Sam Bateman and previous there was really that want to control in order to benefit from that control.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:46.799
And that is really something that is common for um narcissistic abuse survivors and daughters of narcissistic mothers because we're not daughters we're not you know children.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:26:32.400
We are a pawn in whatever they need next right and you know as I watch the women and all with you you and your strength to get through this and all the women who were in the documentary I couldn't help but really see a lot of similar similarities did you notice any common like psychological patterns among the women who eventually found that strength for them to leave well I found you know uh commitment taking a quick break from our podcast to let you know about today's sponsors.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:56.000
Feeling overwhelmed by anxiety does it have you overthinking second guessing yourself are constantly on edge meet iCare a 14-day experience designed to help you understand your anxiety patterns and practice simple evidence-based tools that fit into real life each day includes a quick exercise practical insights and AI guided reflection.
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:05.759
Start your free three-day trial at iCare.app to discover a different way to work with anxiety helping you build greater calm and confidence day by day.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:15.839
If Perimenopause has your muscles aching your stress levels climbing or your nervous system feeling like it's working overtime check out the Happy Cannabis.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:32.960
Their THC-free plant-powered CBD body oils sugar scrubs and goat milk soaps are designed to support everyday wellness and help you unwind naturally use code BMD20 to save 20% on your order and give your body a little extra love.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:45.839
And now back to our episode let's think about gnomes gnomes was very passionate and committed to Sam while she believed in Sam.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:28:25.200
Yes and we recognized that and one of the people who filmed uh besides Toga was um a young woman she said you know if gnomes would just wake up she could put all that energy and that passion into something that would really help her life so we could see it yeah and I think it's the same with a lot of the other young women as well they to the to the degree that they were committed there they can use that energy and focus and passion on something that will help their lives now.
00:28:27.599 --> 00:30:05.680
Yeah that was what I'm sorry go ahead but as far as psychological patterns I don't um the only thing is that that they all were in a situation of coercion and uh they were all compelled to comply that's just a survival brain mm-hmm you know it's interesting that you say that about gnomes because when I was watching it at first I thought she would be the last to leave right I totally thought that because of her you know her um commitment to him and it was just it was very interesting just watching her it made me uncomfortable because of of of the things she was doing but it was very interesting and then when I as I've seen her because she's someone I follow on Instagram and I'll put this in the show notes so people can see the beautiful the growth that has happened um she is kicking ass excuse my language she's like amazing I know I know she's doing so great yeah and I love the relationship that a lot of the survivors have with you because I think that for them you know you going through something similar they look at you as a you know a very uh like a a motherly figure who has helped lead them to this this life of still being you know believing in what you believe in and still like being faithful and you know believing in religion but also being able to be yourself and that's huge.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:12.240
I hope so there let me point out that there are plenty who still are very angry with me.
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:30.559
You know um it you would think that when they leave Sam that they would leave their anger and be like I'm free oh thank you Christine for going to the FBI and sticking this out but they have you know these thought patterns that were ingrained in them while they were with Sam.
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:53.759
So most of the girls are I have a good relationship with but there are a couple that you know I I don't either you know they're in other states and I don't talk to them or that they're influenced by their sisters who are still part of the blue house where the followers live or hang out.
00:30:54.079 --> 00:31:21.599
Are they um and and I know this question wasn't on there I know that there were males that were under Sam are those males still is that still all part of is it still going or is it has it kind of disbanded because I I heard you refer to the the blue house well the men that were shown under him in a chart in the documentary they're in prison they're in prison.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:32:11.039
Oh good okay good one of them one of them woke up and that was Moroni and he took accountability and went to the FBI and and people sometimes questioned whether he was sincere or not maybe he just did it because he knew he was caught but he I'm a witness that he would not take an attorney to that FBI meeting like they were the FBI was saying bring an attorney wow and he was saying I don't want an attorney I don't even want a deal I just want to start cleaning up you know the damage that caused so he so I do believe that he was sincere um in his trying to be accountable for what he did.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:34:50.400
The other ones still believe in Sam but there are other men still who did not commit those crimes who to this day believe in Sam you know it it's uh I I wanna just a little bit uh Roni was that his name who went to the FBI um moroni moroni right Moroni thank you he is an example of it's never too late to do the right thing true um because you know I think for a lot of people who are stuck in you know whatever some kind of relationship are there maybe they are a cult leader and they listen to this whatever it is it's never too late to do the right thing because you can change the direction of where things are going and I think that's a really really important thing um you know one of the things that we often talk about um is that people don't leave these kind of relationships um um not because they are becoming stronger they leave because they finally trust themselves and so was there a common like turning point when you saw that these women began trusting their own tuition trusting their tummies as we say versus what they were hearing well that would be something known by the foster families because when when the search warrant was executed and there was this big raid then the young women I mean the the children were taken by DCFS and put in a group home in the group home nobody woke up because all the whole group was still together and you had the more passionate aggressive older girls overseeing the activities of the younger girls and they had so much influence no one could wake up in that in that close close knit of a group it wasn't until they were all separated into foster family homes so it was getting time away from the group and the pressure and working with the parents of the foster I mean the foster parents it they're the ones that helped them deconstruct as individuals.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:54.559
Now so so yay for them.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:28.079
Now the um the the older a little bit older girls like gnomes and Moretta they woke up because they went to prison and they didn't have constant conversations from prison with the blue house with the people the blue house means the same so it took gnomes quite a while in prison before she would even speak to a therapist.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:56.960
So she hung on tight and then Moretta started seeing the light which is Julia's daughter that went to prison she started waking up from her fog pretty pretty early but not immediately but it was it was that separation so as long as those people are still living over there or hanging out over there or in constant communication then it's going to be harder for them to truly wake up.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:15.280
You know it's it's often what the way that you're saying it the way that I'm saying it the waking up from that haze is really what it is you know I know that when I'm like on Friday of last week I did three podcasts.
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:28.159
So it was back to back to back and I was exhausted by the end of the day because we're talking about really we're not talking about you know light heavy stuff or cheese make gossip in Spanish.
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:35.280
We're not talking about cheese we're like it's heavy and so by the end of the day these are really they're big things.
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:36.559
So the haze is there.
00:36:36.639 --> 00:37:09.519
And so that lifting up that haze stops my automatic reactions stops me thinking that someone might be being critical of me when they're trying to help and I think that is really really important um knowing that you can come out of the haze and it sounds like um the people who helped each of them whether they were you know in prison um or they were in a foster home they're angels because it's a lot it's a lot.
00:37:10.239 --> 00:38:37.760
And then of course once they start deconstructing from Sam then the family's right there because when when they believe in Sam they didn't want to be close to their family they might not have even talked to many family members but the minute they started deconstructing they started reaching out and they had a lot of support from the families that's you know I I really I'm really glad that the people who are out have gotten out and my hope is that this will act as hopefully like a bridge for for other people who are still in this to get out I know yeah you know it's you were like a little you and your husband were like little like undercover detectives as I watched this and I was um astounded by how well you kept it all together and in in the face of like I mean the devil himself right and there were moments where you know I watched it I don't know if you did if when you forgot that you weren't law enforcement that you weren't just undercover and how much pressure did you feel knowing that all of these women or all of these people who were under this control were depending on you to get this information?
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.039
I felt tremendous pressure.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:57.840
I felt every single day that it was those girls were at risk of being abused several times a day every single day and so I didn't want any grass to grow under my feet.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:44:06.480
I was in a hurry I was quite you know I was banging on the door making the calls trying to do what I could I called the FBI long before they officially got involved but they explained that they couldn't get involved until they had a referral from local for local law enforcement that showed that there was an interstate crime and that it would be within their jurisdiction you know I mean I was doing what I could yeah and I think for a lot of people that's what happens you know I I think back to when I I first understood what was going on in my house and going and trying to talk to people and people saying that doesn't seem like it really is happening and you know people not believing it and me just basically without screaming screaming at the top of my lungs saying can you please just look into it yeah um didn't did Sam ever suspect you two I don't think so well he's I mean there was a moment not a very good prophet anyway no no he's not but there was a moment when he brought baby over to see us and I said oh this baby's so cute she looks just like her daddy and he got offended at the word daddy because they say father and something about that spooked him this is early on very early on and so then they shunned us for like three months really that's so that's so odd I mean that's such a like it's a normal reaction like you just say that's so odd I know I know so then they came back and after they came back around then the trust was great he told his followers that it was just a test and and then we were back in the swing of things but when that when we were shunned we didn't know the extent of what was going on and it to me it makes sense that we were shunned because you know it might have been um it might have been there was one baby born that was conceived when a girl was underage maybe that was the baby and he really thought about that but for some reason he got spooked and was worried but after that then he trusted us so much like he wouldn't let any men around the women not even his own followers he wouldn't let them look at men if they went out I did a presentation for them one time on fashion gentile or outsider fashion you know and because they were gonna start dressing they call it dressing down when they went to court and such I was doing the presentation one of the things they asked was are there any hairstyles for long hair um what kind of hairstyles should we do so I went online to search long hairstyles and on my computer a picture of a man popped up and Sam was like get him off the screen no no no you know he's all panicking because they saw a man he was incredibly jealous but in spite of all this he said they could be around Toga because Toga has no lust Toga has no lust that's so interesting well he does for you but for no one else I'm like I mean we we laughed about that quite a bit my no lust husband oh my gosh that I mean he really believed his he really believed it like that man yuck gross like just I don't know how he pulled it but okay like I know he said I trust Tolga and Christine more than I trust myself um I think it was pertaining to the footage we were taking you know and yeah so he did trust us and I did not feel guilty about violating his trust no I don't think you should screw him I mean seriously I mean I actually enjoy it I actually enjoyed violating his trust good for you I'm glad you know and after everything you witnessed was there something that still like bothers you like when you think back to you know spending the time that you did with them and you're like oh that just you know it for me when I was watching it and I know I didn't get all the footage for me was just and I think this is why Gnome's story like so makes me happy Is just the that blind trust that she had for him.
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:09.199
And that and she was so young.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:10.559
And that blind trust.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:12.559
And I was just like, oh my gosh.
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.280
And that was hard for me to watch.
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:20.559
Um, was there something that for you that was really hard that you yeah.
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:27.920
I was very bothered by the way he worked the older women.
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:41.519
Like um, they had to do physical work, carry stuff into the the truck that they were using to go on their picnic and and get all the food and get the babies all set up.
00:44:41.760 --> 00:45:02.480
And I mean, sometimes other people would help, but seeing the older moms, they just they were just like treated like servants and having to babysit the babies when samples off the girls doing who knows what, you know, but they were just I felt like they were mistreated.
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:04.559
I mean, of course the girls were mistreated.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:25.440
Uh I also was bothered when different girls he calls his wives girls, whether they're girls or not, but when different girls or young women or older women would be off in the corner sad or looking like they had just been crying.
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:37.199
I was always uh uh tormented by it, like what happened that they're that they're in a crisis right now.
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:41.039
That's the empathy that he doesn't have.
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:57.039
Yeah, that's what that is because you know I um I was teasing before um when uh I met Esther, your assistant, who also was in the show, about how I just cried the entire time.
00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:00.079
And I said it's probably perimenopause, but it wasn't.
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:11.119
It was just that empathy that I had as I was watching these women as I was thinking about what you possibly were going through, like the thought process.
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:21.440
Um I just it it ripped me apart, and I'm like a glutton for punishment when it comes to this stuff because I study cults and true crime and whatnot.
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:25.440
And I know that you've spent many years studying cults.
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:31.280
Um, what do you think that people misunderstand most about brainwashing?
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:42.880
That it's a serious, a series of psychological processes that are explainable and that anybody can be susceptible to it.
00:46:43.199 --> 00:47:00.400
We have all these invisible influences and cognitive biases that if we're not aware of them, and it's hard to be aware of all of them, but if we're completely oblivious to them, then we're not gonna realize when we're being manipulated.
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:10.800
Yeah, and that brings me to my, I think the next question of can intelligence protect against this and joining a cult or being brainwashed?
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:25.760
No, I mean studies show that cult members tend to be higher in intelligence than the average bear, you know, and uh skepticism can help.
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:28.480
Questioning can help.
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:50.559
But oftentimes people are intelligent, passionate, creative idealists who are honest, looking for a good cause, and in a cult it doesn't look like a cult to the outside at first.
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:55.440
Sometimes, you know, it can look like a movement to do something good.
00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:06.400
So people are joining a good movement where they now have all these new friends and feeling of belonging, and then that gradually or quickly changes.
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:28.159
You know, and I find that with um I've been watching a couple of these uh yoga cults because um, you know, like I said, I'm a glutton for punishment, so I watch a lot of documentaries on cults, and you're right, it's like uh even what seems as if it's a good thing, right?
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:35.840
Of course, the what is it, um, the Manson murders, like that cult, they didn't get involved in it because it was a good cult.
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:50.719
But when you look at some of these other things, like a yoga cult or there's a new cult, I can't remember where it is, but um, his followers were about saving the universe or saving the environment, it doesn't have to start that way.
00:48:50.960 --> 00:49:07.119
And and I think that for a lot of people, and especially those who are religious, so like myself, um, and I came back to religion after leaving because I felt there was um I thought it was like control.
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:09.840
Like, how do you control this person?
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:19.920
And you is there a difference between I think we answered the question between faith and control, and where do the where do you think the lines get crossed for people?
00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:46.159
Well, in a religious group, you can have one family or one individual interpret it a certain way and live it a certain way, and the other family can be their way of living it and um being controlled by it is a cult.
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:53.599
So this in this group, this this family can be in a cult, and then this family isn't in the same group.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:50:24.239
So it's really it's not just the red flags in a group to see whether it's a cult, it's also how it also has to be compared to your personal disposition and how easily subjugated you are and how willing you are to obey authority, like most people are, you know, so the line is crossed when it gets coercive.
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:31.119
So if you can be in a religion that it can encourage you to do good things, that's great.
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:35.199
You know, it can provide this second family for you, that's great too.
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:51.440
That's positive, it's psychologically healthy, but when uh when it goes far into that influence continuum where there's a lot of undue influence and cult control, that's where the line is drawn.
00:50:54.159 --> 00:51:22.159
You know, um one of the things that has happened since this documentary is more recently there was a trial that um y'all shared, and I found it really odd that I found it odd, but not surprising, but also surprising that Sam acted as his own lawyer.
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:26.480
I know it was like way to hand it in there, buddy.
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:28.639
Like you know, there's no way.
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:43.360
But did you ever worry that are we what has most surprised you about life since he's been arrested and now convicted and now in jail?
00:51:44.320 --> 00:52:02.800
I think the thing that surprised me the most is that more people haven't left, that they're still hanging on, in spite of seeing his flaws and his deceptions in full living color, they're still hanging on.
00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:04.239
That's a surprising thing.
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:21.039
Yeah, you know, I I akin it to um if we're comparing like narcissistic parents to to Sam Bateman, I akin it to that daughter, that son who keeps going back to the narcissistic parent.
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:28.079
Like they're gonna do the same thing over and over again, and they're never gonna change.
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:33.440
And even when they get called out, some people keep going back to them.
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:48.559
And you know, I think that for a lot of the people who will be listening, what I think is really important, because we've spent time on Sam, is this flip side of the survivor and the strength of the survivor?
00:52:49.199 --> 00:53:01.920
What is one thing that you wish every survivor of this kind of psychological coercive abuse understood about themselves in order to get them through?
00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:09.199
The basic thing is that you are not what happened to you.
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:18.000
What happened to you does not define you, your identity is up to you.
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:29.519
You can continue to build it and craft it and make your life so that there are joys in your future.
00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:44.400
You can write your happy ending, and and I think that you know, understanding that what happened to you does not make you abnormal.
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:54.800
So many people, millions of people, have ultimately believed in things that they now look back on and go, what the heck was I thinking?
00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:56.719
How could I have ever believed that?
00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:01.519
You know, once you come out of the haze, that's a normal thing.
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:05.519
So to to let go of that self-blame and understand.
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:09.440
I mean, I had that too when I came out of my situation.
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:12.239
I was like, How did I believe that?
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:13.840
How did I fall for that?
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:19.599
And I thought that nobody else on the planet earth would have ever fallen for it.
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:47.119
So I wanted to be tested for mental deficiencies and disabilities because I thought this is not normal, you know, and then I learned that I my brain did what any normal brain would do under the extreme and intense coercion and deception that I had experienced.
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:53.440
My brain was manipulated, and I was still a good person.
00:54:56.480 --> 00:55:02.320
Well, and I think that one of the things that, like, number one, of course, you're a wonderful person.
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:05.519
You wouldn't have done all this work that you've done to save all these women.
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:06.559
So that's the first thing.
00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.800
I I hope that you know and I will vocalize.
00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:15.840
I think the second thing is that there's hope for a better future, right?
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:17.599
Like, I think about myself.
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:27.440
If I thought that I would have not ever had this safety, this comfort, the relationship that I had, I probably would have stayed where I was.
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:34.239
You have your amazing husband, you have your safety, all of those things and the work that you do.
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:45.599
You know, I am incredibly blessed and realize it every day that I open my eyes, not only to be waking up, but also to be where I'm at.
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:48.960
So I I appreciate you and all you've done.
00:55:49.280 --> 00:56:03.440
My last question for you is you have seen humanity um both at its darkest while doing this work for the FBI undercover and the documentary, and at its bravest.
00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:05.840
What gives you hope today?
00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:39.119
I am filled with hope when I see women reclaim their power after abuse when they find their voice and tell their story with integrity and without stigma and knowing that they can march into the future with all their own free agency.
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:42.800
And I see a lot of that here in this town.
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:59.679
It's uh it's a very complex town, it's Colorado City, the originally known as the home of the FLDS, but now there's only about three percent FLDS, the rest have left the FLDS or they're outsiders.
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:05.199
Oh wow, yeah, because of the there were all these evictions that went on and things like that.
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:27.519
But yeah, there's a lot of people in different journeys and different stages in their journey, and I am filled with hope when I see more and more people abandon their superiority and their narcissism and and and stop judging and just start helping.
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:28.960
I love that.
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:39.440
What a beautiful way to end this, and I think also I want to end it on our love for pink because we love like that's how I got Dr.
00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:40.480
Christine hooked.
00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:43.519
I said we will just do a podcast talking about pink.
00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:44.559
So, Dr.
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.039
Christine, thank you so much for being here.
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:49.119
I absolutely loved it.
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:56.159
Uh, I I'm I'm filled with life and out to go, be just amazing.
00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:58.639
So I thank you so much for being here.
00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:00.079
Well, thank you.
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:04.400
And um, after um, can you stop recording?
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:09.519
Thank you so much for joining us for this incredibly important conversation.
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:20.159
If today's episode reminded you of your own experiences, whether a narcissistic parent, an abusive partner, are another controlling relationship, I want you to remember this.
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:22.320
You are not what happened to you.
00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:26.400
Your past explains your story, but it does not define your future.
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:27.280
As Dr.
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:33.760
Christine shared so beautifully, manipulation follows predictable psychological patterns.
00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:37.519
That means if you were manipulated, it doesn't mean you're weak.
00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:38.719
It means you're human.
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:43.199
And just as people can be manipulated, they can also heal too.
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:52.079
If this episode encouraged you, please take a moment to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with someone who may still be questioning their own reality.
00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:56.800
You never know whose life you could change because you share this conversation.
00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:03.280
If you're ready to stop letting your narcissistic mother live rent-free in your mind, I'd love to support you.
00:59:03.519 --> 00:59:06.079
Join our free webinar happening at the end of August.
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.519
Thank you for listening to the Beyond Mommy Dares podcast.
00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:18.639
If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a five-star review, and share it with someone who could use a little hope today.
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:25.280
To learn more about coaching, upcoming events, and our growing community, visit the links in the show notes.
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:34.000
Until next time, keep choosing yourself, keep healing, and remember, you are worthy of love, peace, and a life beyond survival.
00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:40.079
Your skin is a part of your nervous system, and taking care of it is essential to overall balance.
00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:46.559
Our products are specifically formulated to nourish your skin and bring you closer to homeostasis with every use.
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:50.800
Start feeling better in your body today with the happy cannabis.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:12.400
You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shaped your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:14.720
I'm your host, Melani Pearl Hernandez.
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:24.960
This episode is sponsored by the Happy Canabouts, body products designed to help you on your healing journey by supporting your nervous system with every application.
00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:30.160
Today's conversation is one I've been looking forward to for a long time.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:39.759
After watching Netflix, Trust Me, the False Prophet, I couldn't stop thinking about the striking similarities between cult leaders and narcissistic parents.
00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:47.039
The manipulation, the coercive control, the gaslighting, the isolation, the way victims slowly lose trust in themselves.
00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:48.560
Today I'm joined by Dr.
00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:54.880
Christine Marie, whose courage helped expose one of the most dangerous modern cult leaders, Samuel Bateman.
00:00:55.119 --> 00:01:03.920
Working alongside law enforcement, she risked her own safety to help rescue women and children trapped in psychological and spiritual abuse.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:04.640
Dr.
00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:23.920
Christine, I'm so happy that I get to speak to you, not just because I love Pink so much and you make me so happy every time I see you, but because of your enormous amounts of strength and your heroinism in this uh huge, huge story that we're going to talk about.
00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:25.519
So thank you for being here.
00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:26.640
My pleasure.
00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.040
I'm really happy to be on your podcast.
00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:38.159
Um you know, one of the things that we um so we talk about narcissism and narcissism and mothers.
00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:53.680
And one of the things that I found through my research is that cult leaders um very much share some of the same um attitudes, some of the same personality that um narcissistic mothers do.
00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:59.920
And we've had other people on, like um Mark Vicente when he was talking about Nexium.
00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:13.039
Um, at that same time or around then, I was watching uh Trust Me False Prophets on Netflix and was blown away by your palm, your every by everything.
00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:31.120
So for those who don't know, um, and you alluded to it a little bit before Sam Bateman and the false prophet, um, you had your own story in surviving um a cult and changing the way you kind of recognize what was happening in Short Creek.
00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:33.439
So can you talk a little bit about that?
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:43.039
Yeah, so I was a divorced single mother, and I wanted to be the very best Mormon I could be.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:48.560
And I got interested in polygamy because that was one of the higher laws.
00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:52.400
As you know, the mainstream Mormon church broke off.
00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:57.039
I mean, the fundamentalists broke off on the mainstream Mormon Church over polygamy.
00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:06.879
So I was open to it, and I met somebody, I wasn't looking for it, I was just open to it.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:10.319
So I met somebody when I was searching for Mr.
00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:16.000
Wright, who happened to have been a polygamist.
00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:19.840
Um, and is that good English?
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.199
What happened to happen in a minute?
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:28.719
Anyway, so um, and I I got lured into his story, and I believed it was true.
00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:42.319
He had written some documents which I believed were true, and I believed he was a new prophet, and next thing you know, I'm obeying the prophet at the peril of my life.
00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:43.280
Wow.
00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:51.599
What um what was there a moment or was there a moment that while you were recording this documentary?
00:03:51.759 --> 00:04:00.479
Because a lot of it, uh my assumption is because it happens to me as I'm doing these podcasts, like a lot of the trauma kind of rebuilds up for me.
00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:09.840
And so when did this stop really being a documentary in the documentary that we saw to becoming a rescue mission for all those wonderful women?
00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:24.560
Well, it didn't start as a documentary, it started as um a ruse to get evidence.
00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:37.600
We were working on a different documentary, okay, right, about the FLDS, and Sam saw pieces of it because Toby showed him, and then Sam wanted to be in that one.
00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:47.680
So the more Sam filmed, the more he wanted to film because it you know talked about narcissism.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.160
Right, it fed into his narcissism.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:51.680
Right.
00:04:51.839 --> 00:05:31.839
And in fact, I was uh very much against a documentary on Sam for a long time, and I even have it, I just noticed it in the past couple of weeks that I even had have it in some of my um uh legal documents that I mean things that I shared with law enforcement because media was camping outside their house, and my fear was that if the story became big before we had the investigation button down, that he would move away with everybody, and he was gathering passports and there was a budget for a plane, he's a pilot.
00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.639
Oh my goodness, and they he kept going to Mexico for some reason.
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:44.160
So we were afraid that if this became big before he was arrested, that that we might lose it.
00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:47.920
So it was not a documentary and then a rescue mission.
00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.120
It was first and foremost a rescue mission.
00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:52.399
Yeah, absolutely.
00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.199
That that's amazing.
00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:09.120
Uh you know, it looking back, and for those of you who haven't watched it, you have to watch it, listen to the podcast, and then watch it again, because that's what I'm gonna do to kind of look back at what was going on.
00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:15.040
And was there ever a point where you thought, oh my goodness, we're gonna need to walk away?
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.160
This is just too dangerous for me and my husband.
00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:24.720
Um it was definitely dangerous.
00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:37.279
The option of walking away was not something that we seriously entertained, but we had times where we couldn't keep going for a while.
00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:39.120
I had to go in therapy.
00:06:39.199 --> 00:07:11.519
I also used my, you know, the FBI special agent as a cry on her shoulder, and I needed to get a lot of support because I just felt that complexity of knowing that they were victims when they didn't know it, knowing that they were going to suffer more when they learned that I'm the one that shed a light on their prophet's crimes to authorities, and he was taken away.
00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.560
The father of their children was taken away because of me.
00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:25.439
You know, so I just knew the betrayal and the harm that they would feel was caused by me and didn't know if any of them would ever stop hating me.
00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:41.680
You know, and I know that this is not a question that's on our list of things, but I I because I follow the girls, I know that you have a close relationship with uh many of them, and they're flourishing.
00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:48.560
And in fact, it's one of their birthdays today, and it's it's just such a lovely thing to see the growth.
00:07:48.720 --> 00:08:13.680
And I I I think that for a lot of people, a lot of women, a lot of uh men that have been children of narcissistic parents, that the that thought process of them not understanding that they're in an abusive relationship and people trying to slowly dissect them out of it is probably one of the biggest fears that the opposite parent has.
00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.879
I know for my dad, he never really talked about my mom being like that.
00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:30.240
And so I think that that that feeling that you just said like is a very like it hits me really deeply because I I I can see that.
00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:47.840
You know, I always am amazed by men like Sam Bateman or other cult leaders that believe that they are the prophet, um, or that they proclaim that.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:51.679
So do you think that he really believed the prophet that he was a prophet?
00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:55.679
Or did no okay, so he knew what he was doing.
00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:22.320
That is my belief because one of his one of his themes was that Warren Jeffs was not in prison, that it was a mannequin there, that he actually was this immortal person now, like he'd gone through uh this process that Warren's believing called um translation, and that he was some kind of immortal person who could speak to him.
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.039
So he knew that wasn't true.
00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:27.759
He knew Warren Jess wasn't appearing talking to him.
00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:34.559
He knew that if Warren Jess had actually died, that it would be world news.
00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:45.039
Every little thing is world news in this town, and if Warren Jess had died, he wouldn't everybody would know, and there would be a big funeral and he'd be in the cemetery.
00:09:45.440 --> 00:10:08.960
But no, I don't believe that he knew, I mean that he believed that he was a prophet, and he just I believe he was a natural predator from his childhood, he was aggressive as a child, and I believe that he just figured out how he could gain control over the people who believed in him.
00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:16.879
You know, it was interesting while I was watching the documentary when it first came out, there was this look that he had.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:31.840
There's like this specific look that people who have been in narcissistic relationships or have been through this kind of cult leader um like brainwashing that he just had he had that look.
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:47.039
Or if one of the girls he believed was misbehaving, there was this look that like just sent chills down my spine because it was the same look that I would get if I was acting like a kid and I was doing something my mom didn't like.
00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:48.559
And it was interesting.
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.080
I didn't expect that watching something like that.
00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.679
I didn't expect it.
00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:56.559
Yeah, we caught it.
00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:14.000
So he he made me nervous when there was this one time when we were in the greenhouse, which is where Sam was with all of his wives, a two-bedroom house with you know like 20 wives and all these children.
00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:23.919
And he said something, and one of the one of his wives corrected it and said, That's not what you said before, before you said something or other.
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:29.519
And I thought, oh no, oh no, she's gonna get reamed.
00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:42.559
And I don't know what happened, but I did learn that when we would leave, he would his word was rebuke, which means humiliate, insult, destroy.
00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:54.639
He would be, you know, be picking them apart because he wanted to put on this perfect show, and so they would go through you know difficult times if they weren't perfect when they were with us.
00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:09.840
Gosh, that and you know, every time I do an interview, whether male, female, or with a person who survived a cult, that those things ring true when you're dealing with a narcissistic mother.
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:27.120
And I think for a lot of people who have narcissistic parents or a narcissistic romantic relationship, are you know they're in a cult to know that their community, the people they can lean on, is vastly larger than that person makes it.
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:44.639
There's uh, you know, uh so many people out there, and you know, when I watched him, and if someone is watching him and watching him speak, there are subtle behaviors that would tell them to pay attention to him.
00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:47.519
What what did you see the in those behaviors?
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:49.840
Like what did he do specifically?
00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:57.200
Well, for one thing, he would cut people off while they were talking and tell them what they're supposed to say, right?
00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:02.960
You know, I mean we caught a little bit of that that made it on the documentary.
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:14.879
Now, let me remind you, Toga and I filmed, but we were filming primarily for the for law enforcement, hoping to catch evidence, and we didn't filter what we filmed, we just gave it all.
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:26.000
But um, in that process, he I mean, we would sometimes catch him slipping up and we would catch that look.
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:38.480
So we didn't know exactly what was gonna end up in the final documentary because we just entrusted the footage to a uh production company and they put it all together and we didn't even see it until two weeks before it came out.
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:46.879
So when I say it made it into something made it into the documentary, it's because we're not the ones that built the story out of the footage.
00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:58.480
So, but yeah, a couple things did show up in there in where he's you know um telling people, you know, what to say.
00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:14.960
But another thing he would do is send people over to our house, or they would come on their own because they knew it would please him, have them talk about how much they loved him on camera.
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:32.559
You know, Sam was not allowed, Sam did not allow the girls to be vain, they couldn't primp in the mirror for very long, like or even look at themselves in the mirror, they wouldn't let the children see pictures of themselves on the phone because they would become vain.
00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:50.720
But when it came to him, you know, he was having his hair dyed, and people, you know, before the before we filmed him one time, he was getting all primed up and you know, but this white jacket that they told us was fifteen thousand dollars.
00:14:50.879 --> 00:15:10.240
And I'm thinking, yeah, you know, and he's eating dinner like at his birthday or anniversary things, he would be sitting there like a king eating while everybody else is working or singing or serving him, at least for a while.
00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:15.600
And I mean, the fact that the whole world revolved around him, he was centered.
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:24.320
So there was something going on that let those wives know you center Sam or you're in trouble.
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:37.360
You know, I I laugh because I'm gonna try to say this as nicely as as possible, but Sam is not a good looking guy.
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:45.919
Like he's he's just he's not, and you know, I um I think my husband is incredibly handsome.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:16:04.799
So I am always shocked when someone like Sam can convince someone, and not just one person, he convinced an entire community that he was, you know, the bee's knees, that he was like the he's the one.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:12.080
And I like I don't even know how you would begin to accomplish something like that.
00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:14.960
Like what sorry, go ahead.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:50.559
I I believe it was because he took over the mantle of the prophet, and it was really his position that they fell for, not then once they did, they wanted to see him that way, and you know, they had confirmation bias, they would see everything that he did and as if it was an appropriate thing for a prophet to do, and they were prophets' wives, or they were you know men that stood up for the prophet.
00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:58.960
So I don't think it was his personality, I do think it was his deceptiveness, and he was confident too.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.960
That confidence becomes a sneeze, hang on.
00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:04.720
No worries.
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:08.160
Oh, I think I'm not gonna sneeze.
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:29.440
Um sorry, no, it's okay, but but his confidence went a long way because as honest people, we don't expect another human being to do something as bold as pretend you are a prophet speaking to God himself.
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:42.720
So when we have believed that for generations and we finally meet someone, it I mean, many FLDS did say that you know that's a crock of shit.
00:17:42.799 --> 00:18:02.559
I mean, it didn't shit, but you know, yeah, they they were like would have nothing to do with it, but for the people who who opened their minds to the possibility and ended up believing in him, they would then see everything from that lens because they were hungry for certainty.
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:18.799
Their prophet wasn't communicating with them anymore, and here you know, Sam represented this is a way you can get communications with the current prophet, and so they were just so hungry for that.
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:21.440
That makes sense.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:29.039
You know, why why do you think that people didn't see the red flags at the same time?
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.000
Why do you think it took like dribs and drabs for them?
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:41.680
So because I saw the I saw you could see when the girls started to kind of come out of it, come out of that haze is what we call it, that narcissistic haze.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:44.160
But some of them didn't come out right away.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:55.200
And I attributed some of it to them being young, but why do you think that everyone didn't see the red flags at the same time?
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.240
Well, I think it's because of groupthink.
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:33.920
They were in a fishbowl where everybody was monitoring everybody else, and then you have some very smart and college-educated women in that group that were mothers saying their testimonies, you know, um, declaring their beliefs and interpreting coincidences and things that they see happen in their lives, like nature, it it's they're giving meaning to random events and using it as data that he's really the real thing.
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:41.279
So people are trusting in uh the words of others, it's called social proof.
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.720
When you see everybody else doing something, you think it's okay?
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:54.960
And I think the fact that they were all together and all confirming the same um story, it made it hard to say, no, they're all wrong.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:02.960
You know, was there one lie that seemed to kind of unlock that complete obedience from his followers?
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:09.759
Like, what was the one thing that if you just weren't sure he came with the lie and then that was it?
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:16.960
Remember when he was in front of us, he put on a you know, he put on a show.
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:17.759
Yeah.
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:18.559
Yeah.
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:25.839
But I do know that he required everybody to obey, be obedient.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:35.920
And he also had them doing affirmations, writing affirmations like it was um punishment in high school.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.160
You know, he would read over and over pages and pages and pages.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.279
Like I love Samuel Rappeli Bateman.
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:43.920
I love Samuel.
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.720
He is my I will obey, I will obey father.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.440
Call him father, I will obey father, I will obey father.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:56.960
You would have to write that morning and night, pages and pages of the same sentence over and over and over.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.720
That's that is maddening.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:16.400
I mean, you know, when I was back way back when, since I'm turning 50 next year, way back when I was in grade school, we would get lines when we would do something, we would get in trouble or something was going on, and we would say, we can't be led to class or whatever it was.
00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:19.920
And you know, we sure as heck weren't late then.
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.839
We you know, we listened and we went.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:36.240
So of course, of course, mean especially for the girls who were younger, that would absolutely convince them to obey or whatever things that yeah, he was asking.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:37.119
Go ahead, sorry.
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.960
Well, he would humiliate them if they didn't.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:55.279
And they were all walking on eggshells because they were afraid to get rebuked in front of the other girls, and it would be a very devastating experience for them.
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.200
So he had them uh like a scared.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.279
pack of kittens.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:08.480
And whatever he said they want they wanted to do it, they he pressured them to be able to predict what he wanted.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:10.400
So he didn't even have to tell them.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:12.640
It was incredibly controlling.
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:28.880
Gosh, you know, and and you mentioned that you're a mother and I'm a mother and I can't imagine who could convince me as a parent to to surrender any of my daughters, even on the days that they have the worst attitudes.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:31.680
I wouldn't do it, right?
00:22:31.839 --> 00:23:11.920
And so how do you think he convinced all of those mothers and fathers to surrender his those daughters to him like in Mormon culture, including mainstream church, you start from childhood singing songs like follow the prophet hearing talks in Sunday school and and the all the general conference meetings about the importance of following the prophet and the FLDS were no different.
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:20.240
And there is a belief that if you do not follow the prophet you will be destroyed.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:29.119
So the key was the amount of faith that they had in him being a prophet.
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.400
I I had that same experience.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:49.599
I was a mother I was educated and a little and I believed if I did not do what my prophet wanted me to do that I would suffer eternal consequences.
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:52.799
And he separated me from my children for a while.
00:23:53.039 --> 00:24:06.079
I didn't give them away or give them up but he wanted me to and you know so something in me found a workaround on how I could not how I could how I could get away with not doing that.
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:28.400
But I think that because they were the women were you know raised in a patriarchal society that they what they thought was not as important as obeying their husband I know that Julia did not want any of her girls to go to Sam.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:38.960
And she expressed that but then she suffered the consequences as a result of it and then he started marrying her daughters without her even knowing.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:46.319
So it's more nuanced than it looks it's not like all of a sudden he said give me your children and they said yes.
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:46.799
Right.
00:24:46.960 --> 00:25:01.119
You know there were battles and struggles and well and I think that because um you know FDLS is so um a lot of people don't know much about it.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:12.079
Like what we know about Mormonism often is that people they're the people who come to the door and they come and do you know the prayers with you in your living room.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.799
And as they they don't really know much more to it.
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:30.160
And it sounds like especially in this sec, in this cult in this with Sam Bateman and previous there was really that want to control in order to benefit from that control.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:46.799
And that is really something that is common for um narcissistic abuse survivors and daughters of narcissistic mothers because we're not daughters we're not you know children.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:26:32.400
We are a pawn in whatever they need next right and you know as I watch the women and all with you you and your strength to get through this and all the women who were in the documentary I couldn't help but really see a lot of similar similarities did you notice any common like psychological patterns among the women who eventually found that strength for them to leave well I found you know uh commitment taking a quick break from our podcast to let you know about today's sponsors.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:56.000
Feeling overwhelmed by anxiety does it have you overthinking second guessing yourself are constantly on edge meet iCare a 14-day experience designed to help you understand your anxiety patterns and practice simple evidence-based tools that fit into real life each day includes a quick exercise practical insights and AI guided reflection.
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:05.759
Start your free three-day trial at iCare.app to discover a different way to work with anxiety helping you build greater calm and confidence day by day.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:15.839
If Perimenopause has your muscles aching your stress levels climbing or your nervous system feeling like it's working overtime check out the Happy Cannabis.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:32.960
Their THC-free plant-powered CBD body oils sugar scrubs and goat milk soaps are designed to support everyday wellness and help you unwind naturally use code BMD20 to save 20% on your order and give your body a little extra love.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:45.839
And now back to our episode let's think about gnomes gnomes was very passionate and committed to Sam while she believed in Sam.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:28:25.200
Yes and we recognized that and one of the people who filmed uh besides Toga was um a young woman she said you know if gnomes would just wake up she could put all that energy and that passion into something that would really help her life so we could see it yeah and I think it's the same with a lot of the other young women as well they to the to the degree that they were committed there they can use that energy and focus and passion on something that will help their lives now.
00:28:27.599 --> 00:30:05.680
Yeah that was what I'm sorry go ahead but as far as psychological patterns I don't um the only thing is that that they all were in a situation of coercion and uh they were all compelled to comply that's just a survival brain mm-hmm you know it's interesting that you say that about gnomes because when I was watching it at first I thought she would be the last to leave right I totally thought that because of her you know her um commitment to him and it was just it was very interesting just watching her it made me uncomfortable because of of of the things she was doing but it was very interesting and then when I as I've seen her because she's someone I follow on Instagram and I'll put this in the show notes so people can see the beautiful the growth that has happened um she is kicking ass excuse my language she's like amazing I know I know she's doing so great yeah and I love the relationship that a lot of the survivors have with you because I think that for them you know you going through something similar they look at you as a you know a very uh like a a motherly figure who has helped lead them to this this life of still being you know believing in what you believe in and still like being faithful and you know believing in religion but also being able to be yourself and that's huge.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:12.240
I hope so there let me point out that there are plenty who still are very angry with me.
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:30.559
You know um it you would think that when they leave Sam that they would leave their anger and be like I'm free oh thank you Christine for going to the FBI and sticking this out but they have you know these thought patterns that were ingrained in them while they were with Sam.
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:53.759
So most of the girls are I have a good relationship with but there are a couple that you know I I don't either you know they're in other states and I don't talk to them or that they're influenced by their sisters who are still part of the blue house where the followers live or hang out.
00:30:54.079 --> 00:31:21.599
Are they um and and I know this question wasn't on there I know that there were males that were under Sam are those males still is that still all part of is it still going or is it has it kind of disbanded because I I heard you refer to the the blue house well the men that were shown under him in a chart in the documentary they're in prison they're in prison.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:32:11.039
Oh good okay good one of them one of them woke up and that was Moroni and he took accountability and went to the FBI and and people sometimes questioned whether he was sincere or not maybe he just did it because he knew he was caught but he I'm a witness that he would not take an attorney to that FBI meeting like they were the FBI was saying bring an attorney wow and he was saying I don't want an attorney I don't even want a deal I just want to start cleaning up you know the damage that caused so he so I do believe that he was sincere um in his trying to be accountable for what he did.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:34:50.400
The other ones still believe in Sam but there are other men still who did not commit those crimes who to this day believe in Sam you know it it's uh I I wanna just a little bit uh Roni was that his name who went to the FBI um moroni moroni right Moroni thank you he is an example of it's never too late to do the right thing true um because you know I think for a lot of people who are stuck in you know whatever some kind of relationship are there maybe they are a cult leader and they listen to this whatever it is it's never too late to do the right thing because you can change the direction of where things are going and I think that's a really really important thing um you know one of the things that we often talk about um is that people don't leave these kind of relationships um um not because they are becoming stronger they leave because they finally trust themselves and so was there a common like turning point when you saw that these women began trusting their own tuition trusting their tummies as we say versus what they were hearing well that would be something known by the foster families because when when the search warrant was executed and there was this big raid then the young women I mean the the children were taken by DCFS and put in a group home in the group home nobody woke up because all the whole group was still together and you had the more passionate aggressive older girls overseeing the activities of the younger girls and they had so much influence no one could wake up in that in that close close knit of a group it wasn't until they were all separated into foster family homes so it was getting time away from the group and the pressure and working with the parents of the foster I mean the foster parents it they're the ones that helped them deconstruct as individuals.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:54.559
Now so so yay for them.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:28.079
Now the um the the older a little bit older girls like gnomes and Moretta they woke up because they went to prison and they didn't have constant conversations from prison with the blue house with the people the blue house means the same so it took gnomes quite a while in prison before she would even speak to a therapist.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:56.960
So she hung on tight and then Moretta started seeing the light which is Julia's daughter that went to prison she started waking up from her fog pretty pretty early but not immediately but it was it was that separation so as long as those people are still living over there or hanging out over there or in constant communication then it's going to be harder for them to truly wake up.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:15.280
You know it's it's often what the way that you're saying it the way that I'm saying it the waking up from that haze is really what it is you know I know that when I'm like on Friday of last week I did three podcasts.
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:28.159
So it was back to back to back and I was exhausted by the end of the day because we're talking about really we're not talking about you know light heavy stuff or cheese make gossip in Spanish.
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:35.280
We're not talking about cheese we're like it's heavy and so by the end of the day these are really they're big things.
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:36.559
So the haze is there.
00:36:36.639 --> 00:37:09.519
And so that lifting up that haze stops my automatic reactions stops me thinking that someone might be being critical of me when they're trying to help and I think that is really really important um knowing that you can come out of the haze and it sounds like um the people who helped each of them whether they were you know in prison um or they were in a foster home they're angels because it's a lot it's a lot.
00:37:10.239 --> 00:38:37.760
And then of course once they start deconstructing from Sam then the family's right there because when when they believe in Sam they didn't want to be close to their family they might not have even talked to many family members but the minute they started deconstructing they started reaching out and they had a lot of support from the families that's you know I I really I'm really glad that the people who are out have gotten out and my hope is that this will act as hopefully like a bridge for for other people who are still in this to get out I know yeah you know it's you were like a little you and your husband were like little like undercover detectives as I watched this and I was um astounded by how well you kept it all together and in in the face of like I mean the devil himself right and there were moments where you know I watched it I don't know if you did if when you forgot that you weren't law enforcement that you weren't just undercover and how much pressure did you feel knowing that all of these women or all of these people who were under this control were depending on you to get this information?
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.039
I felt tremendous pressure.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:57.840
I felt every single day that it was those girls were at risk of being abused several times a day every single day and so I didn't want any grass to grow under my feet.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:44:06.480
I was in a hurry I was quite you know I was banging on the door making the calls trying to do what I could I called the FBI long before they officially got involved but they explained that they couldn't get involved until they had a referral from local for local law enforcement that showed that there was an interstate crime and that it would be within their jurisdiction you know I mean I was doing what I could yeah and I think for a lot of people that's what happens you know I I think back to when I I first understood what was going on in my house and going and trying to talk to people and people saying that doesn't seem like it really is happening and you know people not believing it and me just basically without screaming screaming at the top of my lungs saying can you please just look into it yeah um didn't did Sam ever suspect you two I don't think so well he's I mean there was a moment not a very good prophet anyway no no he's not but there was a moment when he brought baby over to see us and I said oh this baby's so cute she looks just like her daddy and he got offended at the word daddy because they say father and something about that spooked him this is early on very early on and so then they shunned us for like three months really that's so that's so odd I mean that's such a like it's a normal reaction like you just say that's so odd I know I know so then they came back and after they came back around then the trust was great he told his followers that it was just a test and and then we were back in the swing of things but when that when we were shunned we didn't know the extent of what was going on and it to me it makes sense that we were shunned because you know it might have been um it might have been there was one baby born that was conceived when a girl was underage maybe that was the baby and he really thought about that but for some reason he got spooked and was worried but after that then he trusted us so much like he wouldn't let any men around the women not even his own followers he wouldn't let them look at men if they went out I did a presentation for them one time on fashion gentile or outsider fashion you know and because they were gonna start dressing they call it dressing down when they went to court and such I was doing the presentation one of the things they asked was are there any hairstyles for long hair um what kind of hairstyles should we do so I went online to search long hairstyles and on my computer a picture of a man popped up and Sam was like get him off the screen no no no you know he's all panicking because they saw a man he was incredibly jealous but in spite of all this he said they could be around Toga because Toga has no lust Toga has no lust that's so interesting well he does for you but for no one else I'm like I mean we we laughed about that quite a bit my no lust husband oh my gosh that I mean he really believed his he really believed it like that man yuck gross like just I don't know how he pulled it but okay like I know he said I trust Tolga and Christine more than I trust myself um I think it was pertaining to the footage we were taking you know and yeah so he did trust us and I did not feel guilty about violating his trust no I don't think you should screw him I mean seriously I mean I actually enjoy it I actually enjoyed violating his trust good for you I'm glad you know and after everything you witnessed was there something that still like bothers you like when you think back to you know spending the time that you did with them and you're like oh that just you know it for me when I was watching it and I know I didn't get all the footage for me was just and I think this is why Gnome's story like so makes me happy Is just the that blind trust that she had for him.
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:09.199
And that and she was so young.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:10.559
And that blind trust.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:12.559
And I was just like, oh my gosh.
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.280
And that was hard for me to watch.
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:20.559
Um, was there something that for you that was really hard that you yeah.
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:27.920
I was very bothered by the way he worked the older women.
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:41.519
Like um, they had to do physical work, carry stuff into the the truck that they were using to go on their picnic and and get all the food and get the babies all set up.
00:44:41.760 --> 00:45:02.480
And I mean, sometimes other people would help, but seeing the older moms, they just they were just like treated like servants and having to babysit the babies when samples off the girls doing who knows what, you know, but they were just I felt like they were mistreated.
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:04.559
I mean, of course the girls were mistreated.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:25.440
Uh I also was bothered when different girls he calls his wives girls, whether they're girls or not, but when different girls or young women or older women would be off in the corner sad or looking like they had just been crying.
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:37.199
I was always uh uh tormented by it, like what happened that they're that they're in a crisis right now.
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:41.039
That's the empathy that he doesn't have.
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:57.039
Yeah, that's what that is because you know I um I was teasing before um when uh I met Esther, your assistant, who also was in the show, about how I just cried the entire time.
00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:00.079
And I said it's probably perimenopause, but it wasn't.
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:11.119
It was just that empathy that I had as I was watching these women as I was thinking about what you possibly were going through, like the thought process.
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:21.440
Um I just it it ripped me apart, and I'm like a glutton for punishment when it comes to this stuff because I study cults and true crime and whatnot.
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:25.440
And I know that you've spent many years studying cults.
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:31.280
Um, what do you think that people misunderstand most about brainwashing?
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:42.880
That it's a serious, a series of psychological processes that are explainable and that anybody can be susceptible to it.
00:46:43.199 --> 00:47:00.400
We have all these invisible influences and cognitive biases that if we're not aware of them, and it's hard to be aware of all of them, but if we're completely oblivious to them, then we're not gonna realize when we're being manipulated.
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:10.800
Yeah, and that brings me to my, I think the next question of can intelligence protect against this and joining a cult or being brainwashed?
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:25.760
No, I mean studies show that cult members tend to be higher in intelligence than the average bear, you know, and uh skepticism can help.
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:28.480
Questioning can help.
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:50.559
But oftentimes people are intelligent, passionate, creative idealists who are honest, looking for a good cause, and in a cult it doesn't look like a cult to the outside at first.
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:55.440
Sometimes, you know, it can look like a movement to do something good.
00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:06.400
So people are joining a good movement where they now have all these new friends and feeling of belonging, and then that gradually or quickly changes.
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:28.159
You know, and I find that with um I've been watching a couple of these uh yoga cults because um, you know, like I said, I'm a glutton for punishment, so I watch a lot of documentaries on cults, and you're right, it's like uh even what seems as if it's a good thing, right?
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:35.840
Of course, the what is it, um, the Manson murders, like that cult, they didn't get involved in it because it was a good cult.
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:50.719
But when you look at some of these other things, like a yoga cult or there's a new cult, I can't remember where it is, but um, his followers were about saving the universe or saving the environment, it doesn't have to start that way.
00:48:50.960 --> 00:49:07.119
And and I think that for a lot of people, and especially those who are religious, so like myself, um, and I came back to religion after leaving because I felt there was um I thought it was like control.
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:09.840
Like, how do you control this person?
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:19.920
And you is there a difference between I think we answered the question between faith and control, and where do the where do you think the lines get crossed for people?
00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:46.159
Well, in a religious group, you can have one family or one individual interpret it a certain way and live it a certain way, and the other family can be their way of living it and um being controlled by it is a cult.
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:53.599
So this in this group, this this family can be in a cult, and then this family isn't in the same group.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:50:24.239
So it's really it's not just the red flags in a group to see whether it's a cult, it's also how it also has to be compared to your personal disposition and how easily subjugated you are and how willing you are to obey authority, like most people are, you know, so the line is crossed when it gets coercive.
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:31.119
So if you can be in a religion that it can encourage you to do good things, that's great.
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:35.199
You know, it can provide this second family for you, that's great too.
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:51.440
That's positive, it's psychologically healthy, but when uh when it goes far into that influence continuum where there's a lot of undue influence and cult control, that's where the line is drawn.
00:50:54.159 --> 00:51:22.159
You know, um one of the things that has happened since this documentary is more recently there was a trial that um y'all shared, and I found it really odd that I found it odd, but not surprising, but also surprising that Sam acted as his own lawyer.
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:26.480
I know it was like way to hand it in there, buddy.
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:28.639
Like you know, there's no way.
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:43.360
But did you ever worry that are we what has most surprised you about life since he's been arrested and now convicted and now in jail?
00:51:44.320 --> 00:52:02.800
I think the thing that surprised me the most is that more people haven't left, that they're still hanging on, in spite of seeing his flaws and his deceptions in full living color, they're still hanging on.
00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:04.239
That's a surprising thing.
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:21.039
Yeah, you know, I I akin it to um if we're comparing like narcissistic parents to to Sam Bateman, I akin it to that daughter, that son who keeps going back to the narcissistic parent.
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:28.079
Like they're gonna do the same thing over and over again, and they're never gonna change.
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:33.440
And even when they get called out, some people keep going back to them.
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:48.559
And you know, I think that for a lot of the people who will be listening, what I think is really important, because we've spent time on Sam, is this flip side of the survivor and the strength of the survivor?
00:52:49.199 --> 00:53:01.920
What is one thing that you wish every survivor of this kind of psychological coercive abuse understood about themselves in order to get them through?
00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:09.199
The basic thing is that you are not what happened to you.
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:18.000
What happened to you does not define you, your identity is up to you.
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:29.519
You can continue to build it and craft it and make your life so that there are joys in your future.
00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:44.400
You can write your happy ending, and and I think that you know, understanding that what happened to you does not make you abnormal.
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:54.800
So many people, millions of people, have ultimately believed in things that they now look back on and go, what the heck was I thinking?
00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:56.719
How could I have ever believed that?
00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:01.519
You know, once you come out of the haze, that's a normal thing.
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:05.519
So to to let go of that self-blame and understand.
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:09.440
I mean, I had that too when I came out of my situation.
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:12.239
I was like, How did I believe that?
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:13.840
How did I fall for that?
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:19.599
And I thought that nobody else on the planet earth would have ever fallen for it.
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:47.119
So I wanted to be tested for mental deficiencies and disabilities because I thought this is not normal, you know, and then I learned that I my brain did what any normal brain would do under the extreme and intense coercion and deception that I had experienced.
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:53.440
My brain was manipulated, and I was still a good person.
00:54:56.480 --> 00:55:02.320
Well, and I think that one of the things that, like, number one, of course, you're a wonderful person.
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:05.519
You wouldn't have done all this work that you've done to save all these women.
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:06.559
So that's the first thing.
00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.800
I I hope that you know and I will vocalize.
00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:15.840
I think the second thing is that there's hope for a better future, right?
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:17.599
Like, I think about myself.
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:27.440
If I thought that I would have not ever had this safety, this comfort, the relationship that I had, I probably would have stayed where I was.
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:34.239
You have your amazing husband, you have your safety, all of those things and the work that you do.
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:45.599
You know, I am incredibly blessed and realize it every day that I open my eyes, not only to be waking up, but also to be where I'm at.
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:48.960
So I I appreciate you and all you've done.
00:55:49.280 --> 00:56:03.440
My last question for you is you have seen humanity um both at its darkest while doing this work for the FBI undercover and the documentary, and at its bravest.
00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:05.840
What gives you hope today?
00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:39.119
I am filled with hope when I see women reclaim their power after abuse when they find their voice and tell their story with integrity and without stigma and knowing that they can march into the future with all their own free agency.
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:42.800
And I see a lot of that here in this town.
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:59.679
It's uh it's a very complex town, it's Colorado City, the originally known as the home of the FLDS, but now there's only about three percent FLDS, the rest have left the FLDS or they're outsiders.
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:05.199
Oh wow, yeah, because of the there were all these evictions that went on and things like that.
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:27.519
But yeah, there's a lot of people in different journeys and different stages in their journey, and I am filled with hope when I see more and more people abandon their superiority and their narcissism and and and stop judging and just start helping.
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:28.960
I love that.
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:39.440
What a beautiful way to end this, and I think also I want to end it on our love for pink because we love like that's how I got Dr.
00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:40.480
Christine hooked.
00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:43.519
I said we will just do a podcast talking about pink.
00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:44.559
So, Dr.
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.039
Christine, thank you so much for being here.
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:49.119
I absolutely loved it.
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:56.159
Uh, I I'm I'm filled with life and out to go, be just amazing.
00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:58.639
So I thank you so much for being here.
00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:00.079
Well, thank you.
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:04.400
And um, after um, can you stop recording?
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:09.519
Thank you so much for joining us for this incredibly important conversation.
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:20.159
If today's episode reminded you of your own experiences, whether a narcissistic parent, an abusive partner, are another controlling relationship, I want you to remember this.
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:22.320
You are not what happened to you.
00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:26.400
Your past explains your story, but it does not define your future.
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:27.280
As Dr.
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:33.760
Christine shared so beautifully, manipulation follows predictable psychological patterns.
00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:37.519
That means if you were manipulated, it doesn't mean you're weak.
00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:38.719
It means you're human.
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:43.199
And just as people can be manipulated, they can also heal too.
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:52.079
If this episode encouraged you, please take a moment to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with someone who may still be questioning their own reality.
00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:56.800
You never know whose life you could change because you share this conversation.
00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:03.280
If you're ready to stop letting your narcissistic mother live rent-free in your mind, I'd love to support you.
00:59:03.519 --> 00:59:06.079
Join our free webinar happening at the end of August.
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.519
Thank you for listening to the Beyond Mommy Dares podcast.
00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:18.639
If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a five-star review, and share it with someone who could use a little hope today.
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:25.280
To learn more about coaching, upcoming events, and our growing community, visit the links in the show notes.
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:34.000
Until next time, keep choosing yourself, keep healing, and remember, you are worthy of love, peace, and a life beyond survival.
00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:40.079
Your skin is a part of your nervous system, and taking care of it is essential to overall balance.
00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:46.559
Our products are specifically formulated to nourish your skin and bring you closer to homeostasis with every use.
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:50.800
Start feeling better in your body today with the happy cannabis.
