WEBVTT
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What's up, everybody?
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Welcome back to Beyond Adjustments.
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I'm your host, Amin Saeed.
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So we've been gone for a minute, you know, a couple weeks.
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If you're a regular here, you noticed that, and I want to address it because I think you deserve that much.
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Two reasons.
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Number one, it's summer.
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I have a family.
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We're doing family things.
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We are present, right?
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We're enjoying it.
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And I am genuinely not apologizing for that.
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It's been a good summer.
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Number two, we had a change in our production company.
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And yeah, so that's that happened.
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And we're not gonna get into the details of that today because this is not that kind of show.
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But yeah, you know how it goes sometimes.
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Okay, so while we've been in this, you know, whole transition, enjoying the summer, sorting out the production side of things, we went back through our archive and we pulled three clips, three moments from past episodes that stuck with me long after we stopped recording.
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And that is actually saying something because we have had a lot of incredible conversations on this show.
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But these three specifically, there's something about them that I just kind of kept going back, right?
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And it just kind of kept coming back to me, also.
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So something that shifted how I think about this the profession in general.
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So that is what this episode is, right?
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So no new interview, just three moments that are worth revisiting with a little context from me going into each one.
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So let's get into it.
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My dad did not understand in his brain how I could quit a job that I was good at and gonna get promotions in and go do something completely new and completely different.
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Can you explain torsion?
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Torsion.
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Uh imagine taking a rubber band and stretching it and turning it and turning it and turning it and turning it.
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If I take my pinky and I put it uh right here, I'm on my atlas vertebra.
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Okay.
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But if I take that same pinky, put it onto the neck of a child, it could be on the atlas, the axis, third cervical, maybe even the fourth cervical, depending on the size of that person.
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All right, clip number one.
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This is from my conversation with Dr.
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Daniel Kimberly, a good friend of mine.
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And if you have not heard that full episode yet, I really want you to go back and find it after this because we covered a lot of ground.
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Uh, but here's what I want to set up for you going into this moment.
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So we're deep into a conversation about where chiropractors kind of overcomplicate things.
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Like, what's the actual gap between someone who is technically excellent and someone who builds a practice that works, right?
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Where does that split happen?
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And Dr.
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Daniel makes this case, and I remember when he said it, I just kind of stepped back and he makes the case that communication, not technique, is where most chiropractors drop the ball.
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And then he takes it one step further.
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He argues that communication might actually be more important than the adjustment itself.
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Now, if you're a chiropractor and you just heard that your gut might just push back, I mean mind it a little, but listen to how he frames it.
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And then we get into social media, the crack and pop culture on Instagram, what that has kind of done to the profession's ability to communicate its actual value.
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And I will tell you right now, I had to hold myself back a little in this conversation.
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You'll see why.
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Here's the clip.
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Where do you where do you see chiropractors overcomplicating things?
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Like the most, like the most, really, like instead of just kind of mastering the basics.
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I think there's a couple of places, and you hit both of them.
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Is I'm big on communication.
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Always happened, even in Cairo school, I was like, I just I came from a background where like my dad did not understand in his brain how I could quit a job that I was good at and gonna get promotions in and go do something completely new and completely different and like take the risk to do it, sell off everything we had.
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So, like to me, I always wanted to know like how could I explain this so clearly that my dad would understand it.
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And I think communication is one of those places where a lot of Kairos just like think I'll figure it out later.
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Um, and I've just been obsessed with this.
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So I think communication is one for sure, and we can dive more into that on like a tactical level if you want to.
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But I think, yeah, I think you hit it too when you talked about the technique piece of it, is like I'm I think technique's important, but nobody cares what it's called.
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They just want to see a result from it.
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This is the problem that I really see with people is like, especially students in school, they'll spend their entire three years in school plus learning technique.
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And I'm not saying it's wrong, but this is the issue that I see.
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They get out into the world and it's like nobody cares because they can't explain it.
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And nobody cares because they can't communicate it.
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So then they have this like really cool looking Instagram re-worthy technique that nobody gives a crap about.
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And I'm like, dude, you gotta, you gotta have both of those things, which are so fundamental.
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And I think the communication is arguably more important than the adjustment in some ways.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, so true.
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And and and maybe we do get down to kind of the practical sense and and and cover a little bit tactically what that looks like.
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But before we do, um, what what fundamentals do you think are really like the non-negotiables, right?
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No matter what technique someone practices.
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You obviously got to be able to do a good exam.
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So, and I think that plays into like you got to know where you're gonna adjust somebody.
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And so, like, I take a very brain-based approach.
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So we're like measuring different lobes of the brain and doing some cool testing.
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And like while I'm biased, and I would say that's the only way to do it.
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Um, it's you just one, it's confidence first and foremost.
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But then two, being able to have some semblance of like, all right, do you know what to do with this person that definitively is going to get them a good result and outcome?
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And from there, man, like it doesn't, doesn't have to get complicated beyond that.
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Like people ask me all the time when they see the Arthur stand, they're like, that's it.
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I have patients who ask me, like, that's it.
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But because I'm so confident and like I know exactly what their body needed through the analysis that I do, it doesn't have to look cool.
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It doesn't have to feel cool, it doesn't have to sound cool with a big, huge pop in a crack that gets millions of views on Insta.
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Don't get me started.
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So, like, you know what I mean?
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It's so it's it's I think it's really just those things.
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It's like, do you have a way to definitively say this is what this person's body needs?
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And I'm gonna make a clear distinction with you only because I've had the opportunity, which is so cool, to have the a couple of these conversations with you.
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I think that a lot of times we go in, especially in school, we're taught like when you see these things, this is what you do to that person.
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And that's how the medical profession is.
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They're like, when you see these symptoms that you prescribe this medication.
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And I think getting really good at Cairo is going, what is this person's body telling me that it needs?
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And being able to figure that out, and then only deliver what that person's body needs.
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And I think that's a huge distinction.
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So then we're getting to an individual, like literally individualized care.
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Yeah, no, that's good.
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Um so so let's let's do that then.
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Let's let's go back.
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What does boring look like?
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What is mastering the basics look like tactically?
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If we talk about specific to technique, I I mean, dude, it really gets down to like the line of drive that you're using, how what your indicators are that you could say unequivocally every time, this is what this person's body's showing me.
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Um, and it what what I find especially is like it's easy because you get in this groove where you get good at it.
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And then the hard part is like, now let me go learn whatever thing, whatever other therapy.
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And then that takes away from like becoming that 10,000 hour master of the craft of just doing the thing until you're literally so good at it that you have the confidence and be able to communicate it as well.
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So I really think it comes down to those two things is like not necessarily the palpation, but like the line of drive that you have, the knowing that you know that you know that when you put that input into their body, their body will be able to use it.
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It's it's that simple.
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Well, and what is what does it look like from a communication perspective?
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Yeah, so I mean, I've dude, I have spent a ton, I spent eight years committed to like how do we communicate a message to somebody that's like completely outside of the box of anything they've ever heard before in a short enough time frame that they're not bored and like think you're crazy or trying to spit too much science at them.
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And so for me, the number one thing is telling people the truth.
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Like that's what it has always boiled down to me.
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So I'm not talking half truths, I'm not talking it like we just explain it this way because it's easy to explain that way.
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Um and I if you want me to, I will, but I don't want to get too far down that rabbit hole.
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But I think the thing is that telling someone the truth about how their body works and getting them to go, how come nobody's ever told me that before?
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Um, so what does that require on like a tactical level?
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Well, one, it requires a confidence and certainty that you know the science, but then that you can take that science and effectively communicate it in a way that like speaks directly to someone's pain point.
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That for me in my office is never just back pain or neck pain, like literally never ever.
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So we're talking like third degree pains.
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And then having an understanding that we're not trying to sell somebody on chiropractic.
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Like what you're really trying to sell them on is the fact that their body can heal.
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And I think that so often it's easy to be like chiropractic's so great and the body knows how to heal itself and all this stuff, but you gotta remember like you're sitting in front of a person.
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And so much of what I've experienced, even this week, dude, I could share some crazy stories.
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It's like my unequivocal dedication to telling someone the truth and letting them know that their body's capable of healing outside of like being obsessed with chiropractic.
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It's not about chiropractic, it's about the person.
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Nobody they don't care about chiropractic.
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They want to know how can you help me.
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And when you can like nail that so well, dude, it makes it undeniable that people will see you and stick with you and refer to you and all the other stuff.
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Sure.
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That everybody wants to get without doing the work.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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So so I want to tie a couple things together, right?
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So you you made you made a comment earlier, right?
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You're you know, you're talking about confidence, you're talking about, you know, clear communication, you know, we're talking about just all this stuff tactic tactically, but you made a comment earlier about um the the the cracks and the pops on social media.
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And and I said, don't get me started, right?
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But yeah, I want to go back to that for a second because I think it's important.
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Um, because I think that's diluted um or made it even harder for chiropractors to really practice the way they need to.
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Listen, I I'm I'm all for that.
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You guys want views on Instagram?
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Um, I I get it, right?
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You're trying to get a following, it's all power to you, uh, but let's not lose the message, is my opinion, right?
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And I think we do at times, and it becomes this game, right?
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Oh, that was a good crack.
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Oh, great.
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Okay, that's extra bubbles coming.
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You know, come come on, like let's get let's get down to the science, let's focus more on what you're talking about.
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Let's talk about actually convincing people that our bodies are designed the way they are on purpose and that they're designed to heal themselves, but we have to get them into a place that where, you know, it needs to function properly in order to do that.
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So let's let's get back to that kind of basic, right?
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So, my question to you there is do you think social media has made chiropractors feel like they need to be more complex, right?
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To be taken seriously.
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I mean, dude, I think about this all the time.
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And it like, I know this is a problem.
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I have friends who are going to message me after they watch this episode and they're gonna be like, dude, why you gotta hate on why you gotta hate on my technique like that?
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Like, I know they're gonna do it.
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So, like, I'm gonna say for the record, like I am not hating on it.
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I just think there's a better way.
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So, like the Y strap would be one of those.
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Like somebody lays down.
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I'm like, how do you know what's moving and what's not moving?
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So that's one thing.
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And again, dude, like I'm not trying to be a hater because I see that people can get results with it.
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I've seen people who've had terrible results with it.
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Um and like time and time again in my practice is what I see is like we just get consistently good results.
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So that would be one example.
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Or the other is like, all right, I gotta go now learn a technique where I stand on the table and I like cup somebody's head and I'm like straddling them and I'm like rubbing up against their shoulder and they're like heads in mine and I'm breathing on them and like to do this adjustment.
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And I'm like, dude, I'm pretty sure that we don't like we don't need the theatrics.
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Yeah.
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And so, like, even though it, I think so.
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That's where social media comes in, really, is like, we don't need the theatrics.
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What we need is to just show people that, like, hey, you can get really, really good results.
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And it's just become this like watered down, like the crack is the thing.
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Yeah.
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Which we know, like, dude, all of Heidi's research points to like that's only true sometimes.
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And there are indicators that go with when you adjust a certain segment, that and that segment needs it based on her criteria.
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That's the only time we get the input to the frontal cortex that dampened the N30 amplitude.
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So, like this like global, let's just pop everything approach, like scientifically, based on the best chiropractic research that I've seen, is not validated at all.
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And it's a bummer because then there's people like me who like you look at it and it's like that doesn't look cool on camera at all.
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But I can tell you when a kid has had seizures their entire life and they stop having seizures, like that's pretty cool.
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Yeah, oh yeah.
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A hundred percent.
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You know what I mean?
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Yeah, that one gets me every time.
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The Instagram realign, a really cool-looking technique that nobody gives a crap about because that is real.
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You can be the most technically gifted person in the room, but if the patient in front of you does not understand what you're doing and why it matters for them specifically, you've already lost them.
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And I think that kind of tension between the technical mastery and communication mastery is something this profession is still working through, in my opinion, at least.
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So though those are kind of two completely different skill sets, and you need both.
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Alright, clip two.
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This is from my conversation with Dr.
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Peter Kavorkian.
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Uh, Dr.
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Peter, and this was the first time he was on the show, not the second time.
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And Dr.
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Peter brings a level of experience and kind of philosophical depth to this work that I genuinely respect.
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The part I want you to hear is where we get into pediatric care, specifically what it actually takes to be competent, adjusting children, infants, specifically, because there is a real misconception out there that it is just a scaled-down version of what you do with adults, right?
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And Dr.
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Peter dismantles that.
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His whole philosophy is less is more with kids.
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And the way he explains why, including how long it personally took him to develop the sensitivity to feel what he called the craniorhmic impulse when he was learning the cranial work.
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It is one of those answers that makes you realize how deep the craft actually goes when practitioners commit to it fully.
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And then I kind of put him on the spot a little bit.
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He had this thing called the phenomenal minute, kind of short accessible chiropractic education.
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And I gave him a question that I genuinely used to be afraid of years ago.
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Can someone get paralyzed from a uh chiropractic adjustment?
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Well, watch how he handles it.
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You mentioned that it starts from birth, right?
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The way your body is okay.
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So with with Westwood, right, your your your practice.
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Yeah you you you care for all ages, right?
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So but what I would say what what unique considerations do you take uh or do you teach your associates to take um when when treating uh children, right, versus adults.
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So the uh the the the process of pediatric care adjustments of uh a young child uh has been around literally since the beginning of the profession.
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Okay.
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But the true uh development of uh focused for pediatric care, I'm gonna give credit to Dr.
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Larry Webster.
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Larry Webster, uh who was the developer and creator of the Webster technique you might have heard of.
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I have, yeah.
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Larry Webster was the founder of the ICPA, the International Chiroprada Pediatric Association, and really felt as though chiropractors, although they got some um introduction to caring for children in chiropractic school, that that that there was work that could really be done to elevate the uh specificity and proficiency and competency of the chiropractor adjusting children.
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:19.920
You know, if I take my pinky and I put it uh right here, I I'm on my atlas vertebra, okay?
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:28.960
But if I take that same pinky, put it onto the neck of a child, it could be on the atlas, the axis, the third cervical, maybe even the fourth cervical, depending on the size of that person.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:41.680
So how do you find a way to put a force in very specifically to an area of the spine without engaging more areas of the spine, without over uh putting too much force into the body?
00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:48.400
Uh the indicators that we look at in in an adult an adult can sometimes be very, very, very evident.
00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.799
And a child becomes a little bit more subtle.
00:18:51.119 --> 00:19:05.519
Uh so honing in your skills of being able to evaluate a child or an infant or newborn and being able to specifically apply a corrective force, the adjustment to that child requires training.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:07.920
Um the ICPA offers that.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:15.519
Uh my associates uh uh have been trained through the ICPA as well as uh within my practice.
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:23.680
Uh but the um you know the there's no simple thing I can tell you in in in words.
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:29.039
It's just oh do this and you could be uh a chiropractor for adults and then take care of kids.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:34.799
It requires a different level of uh training, awareness, sensitivity.
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:49.920
Yes, many of the things that we know relative to adults translate down into a pediatric spine, but but there are nuances and um subtleties that really need to be uh developed.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:50.240
Yeah.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:20:09.039
Uh I remember the first time that I uh was trying to learn cranial work, okay, which is uh adjusting the the cranial bulbs, which you can do in adults, but but uh but particularly with with with children because the cranium is still so pliable and the spinal cord attaches throughout the cranium.
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:16.480
The covering of the spine, uh called the meninges, attaches not not just to the spinal cord, but also attaches throughout the cranium.
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:25.039
So you can make an impact and effect into the entire spine by by by taking care of of a cranium, particularly in a child.
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:33.599
Uh but I remember the first time that it was palpating, the cranial rhythmatic impulse, the the very subtle sensation of the movement of the cerebral spinal floor.
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.799
I didn't feel nothing.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:42.400
It took me over nine months to to really begin to hone in and develop skill of being able to feel the cranial rhythmic impulse.
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.839
So it takes patience, uh watching subtleties.
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:54.000
Um the general rule of thumb that I will tell every chiropractor with kids, infants, babies, less is more.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.359
Less is more.
00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:57.440
Less facts usually get you further.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.720
Less less less contacts, less input into the system usually gives you more.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:05.119
Good answer.
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:05.759
I love that.
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.720
So I I I noticed some videos that you have out there.
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.720
Um I believe you called it the phenomenal minute, right?
00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:17.519
Um so I I I I did watch a few.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:27.920
It it really uh I I would say it provides, I guess, accessible uh um bite-sized education on chiropractic care.
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:33.440
What what inspired this uh initiative really and and how do you see it empowering patients?
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:40.880
So um if you saw me and you said, Hey Pete, how's it going today?
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.720
My usual answer is phenomenal.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.559
Phenomenal phenomenal is my work.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:44.799
Okay.
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.039
So I I I I your patients would say, uh what's going on today?
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:50.319
Things are phenomenal.
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:51.359
Love it.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:52.480
Love it.
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.640
So I and I've done that for ages.
00:21:54.799 --> 00:22:01.599
Um a very, very good friend of mine, colleague of mine in Praxon, Massachusetts, uh uh Doctor Jean-Marc Slack.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:05.279
Uh when you asked him, he got a phrase that he learned from Sid Williams.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.759
He says, Well, this friend Jackson says, Near perfect.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:19.839
And so so Jean-Marc had actually started a um a weekly video similar to my thing called the Near Perfect Minute.
00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:31.119
And so it would be his opportunity to get out on social media and share something uh with his practice members, his community, that he called the near perfect minute.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.400
So he inspired me.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:35.359
I I I never say near perfect, but I say phenomenal.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:37.680
I called it Peter's Phenomenal Minute.
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:38.079
I love it.
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:54.799
And what it was was a one minute, maybe 90 second thing about something relative to chiropractic, uh personal growth, uh chiropractic practice, um like uh w w what might be I I would say something like this Dr.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:56.799
Peter with today's phenomenal minute.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:02.559
People ask me, can he hurt somebody by giving them an adjustment?
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.519
So I'd ask the question, then I would give an answer to it.
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:10.240
You know, or um you know, why should kids get adjusted?
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:11.680
And I give an answer for it.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:13.759
Can can people would have a question?
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.759
Can we do a phenomenal minute right now?
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:16.079
Sure.
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:29.039
Alright, um I'm gonna go I'm gonna go extreme I'm gonna go extreme on this one because I really did believe that you can get paralyzed um from from an adjustment.
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.200
This was years ago, just admittedly, but here's my question.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:42.079
Can someone get or can someone be paralyzed as a result of chiropractic care?
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:42.799
This is Dr.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:44.480
Peter with today's phenomenon.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:52.960
Can somebody become paralyzed or permanently injured through chiropractic adjustments?
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.480
The god honest answer is no.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:03.599
If a spinal adjustment is what is being delivered, you cannot be hurt or injured.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:14.559
An adjustment is a very specific gentle force application to allow the body to have less nerve interference, the body is never better off with nerve interference.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:30.799
So if the chiropractor is delivering a spinal adjustment to allow sublications of nerve interference to be corrected, to allow better nerve supply, that is never traumatic, it is never harmful, and can only do good.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:35.519
Now, if the question was, can chiropractor hurt somebody?
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.160
Could you drive your car into a brick wall?
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.599
Could you jump out of a 50-store building?
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:43.039
And would that hurt?
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:44.160
Absolutely.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.880
The chiropractor would need to do something that really is not a final adjustment.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:51.599
But I'm gonna give you the truth.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.720
If chiropractors were hurting people, it would be reflected in their malpractice rates.
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:04.480
The amount that I paid for malpractice insurance for millions of dollars worth of coverage was less than I paid for my auto insurance.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:05.279
Wow.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.799
It's one of the safest forms of health care.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.279
I have to say that's phenomenal.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:18.240
But realize the question that you asked me was chiropractic care.
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.400
So first I needed to define for you an adjustment.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:27.279
I noticed final adjustment that never harms and can only do good by its definition.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:27.599
Yeah.
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:31.920
Now, could a chiropractor put an inappropriate force into a person's body?
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:32.559
Sure.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:38.400
Much of that would be volitional or unconscious or unethical to be to be able to do that.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.079
Could something occur that I don't think anything is possible.
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:42.480
Sure.
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:45.680
You know, uh a plane could land on me right now and kill me.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:46.160
Right.
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.240
Anything, anything, anything is possible.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:50.720
Right.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:55.359
But if indeed it was happening a lot, it would be reflected in our insurance rates.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:56.400
Gotcha.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:02.240
Alright, last one, clip three, is from my conversation with Dr.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:08.240
Justin Dick, who practices scoliosis care under the Clear Institute methodology.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:08.799
Dr.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:13.039
Justin holds a special place in my heart and always will.
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:18.880
He worked with my children, both have scoliosis, as you guys know, and save them from surgery.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.480
Gotta really use his hands to get them aligned anyway.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:24.160
I'll be honest.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:32.559
With you going into this conversation, I thought I had kind of a pretty solid understanding of scoliosis, especially because of our kind of walk with our children.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:39.039
I knew it was a curvature, I knew it was, you know, measured in degrees, I thought it was kind of typically as shaped.
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:40.960
Um, that was about the extent of it.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.400
I mean I knew a little bit more, but I I thought I knew, right?
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:45.680
I I was wrong.
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.200
Like, not just a little wrong, like structurally wrong.
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:49.920
Dr.
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:59.519
Justin takes a three-dimensional kind of biomechanics approach to scoliosis, which is actually how the condition works, right?
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:02.400
It is three-dimensional by definition.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:15.519
And the way he explains what is happening in the spine using the rubber band analogy for for the torsion is the clearest explanation I have ever heard on the topic.
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.279
Like, period, point blank.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:20.000
And then we get into bracing, which is nuanced, right?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:34.160
He he does not just say it worked or it does not work, he gets into which patients actually need it, why historically bracing largely failed, and what is different about the approach he uses.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:42.880
And there's one moment in there when he talks about the diagnosis just being a number that I think is worth the whole clip by itself.
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:44.000
Here you go.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:49.279
So let's let's talk a little bit about understanding scoliosis.
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:57.200
So, scoliosis, at least for me and and from the people I've spoken to about it, the the layman we'll call it, right?
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.680
Um, it's really it's misunderstood.
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:07.839
So, could you explain uh what it is and why uh early detection and treatment are critical?
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:09.359
This is a great question.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:12.640
Uh so scoliosis as a whole, nobody knows what it is.
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:12.960
Yeah.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:14.079
As a whole, right?
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:20.799
Uh it's measured by a side curvature on an X-ray that comes from front to back or back to front.
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:24.319
Uh every doctor in the world knows is bad news.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.319
Every doctor knows how to measure it, but that's all you're ever taught.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:39.039
Some of the new surgeries, some of the new stuff that's coming in, some of the stuff that I'm doing, uh, we're starting to pinpoint more of okay, here's the biomechanics of it, and here's what's going on.
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.480
Uh so my mentor, Dr.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:48.400
Wogan, was a biomechanics teacher, and so if it got there, his uh his objective was well, why can't we reverse engineer it?
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:56.960
All right, so when we're looking at sceliosis itself, we'll look at the spine in three dimensions, not just from the front, not just how we measure it.
00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:59.920
This is a side effect of actually what's happening.
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:10.480
So when we're looking at sceliosis from the side, the most important x-rays from the side, we want a good curve in our neck, a good curve where our ribs are, and a good curve in our low back.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:11.359
Right.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.400
100% of sceliosis cases don't have that.
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:22.400
Alright, so when the spine moves, almost always the spine, the each individual vertebra comes backwards and it rotates.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:24.240
Comes backwards and it rotates.
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.200
And here's where I have issues with chiropractors.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:33.680
They adjust this one bone, but when they adjust one bone, they're moving essentially multiple at a time.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:40.240
So imagine taking your spine that you have these good curves here, and these good curves start to go away.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.960
It's not like you just grow up and out.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:50.480
Actually, what happens is if you take your spine and you lose the good curves, it starts to rotate and rotate and rotate and rotate.
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:54.160
Eventually, it creates so much torsion that it comes out to the side.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:57.119
And that's what sceliosis is so far.
00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:58.799
Can you explain torsion?
00:29:59.200 --> 00:29:59.759
Torsion.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:05.839
Uh imagine taking a rubber band and stretching it and turning it and turning it and turning it and turning it.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.319
It creates so much tension in there that it has to have somewhere to go.
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.920
So the the rubber band will come out to the side and come back up.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:15.920
So it's a rotation.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:25.599
So whenever you if you have a diagnosis of sceliosis and the doctor says, Oh my goodness, you have so much rotation in there, you'd be like, Well, you can't have sceliosis without it, by definition.
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:27.440
Sceliosis is rotation.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:28.160
Gotcha.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.480
So somebody that doesn't understand it very well.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:33.920
I'd say I'd see college care somewhere else.
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.480
Um well, let me ask you this.
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:47.680
So my my plain understanding of scoliosis is that um it it's shaped like an S.
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:50.799
Is that always the case?
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:52.240
Or okay.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:53.599
No, say that a little.
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:55.039
There's many different types.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:58.880
Sceliosis is just a measurement of 10 degrees, uh, a cob angle.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:30:59.759
That's how it's measured.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:00.079
Okay.
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:07.839
So you take the curve and you take the most tilted at the top, most tilted at the bottom, and measure them together, and that's what they call the cob angle.
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:14.000
So as long as I that cob angle could be anywhere in the body, it could be one, it could be five, could be six.
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:16.400
They're just measuring the cob angles in there.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:20.000
So the curves from the fronts or from the back to the front.
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.759
As long as there's uh something over 10 degrees and it's classified as sceliosis.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:30.480
I I want to get kind of get this right without being too nasty.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.720
Um sceliosis is just a number.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:40.960
If you're married to that number and you're married to that diagnosis, nobody can help you.
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:44.160
It's just a name, it doesn't mean anything.
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:44.720
Wow.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.359
Right?
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.319
So I I I use a kind of a crude analogy.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:55.279
Um I mean, if you have stage four cancer, right, which is a death sentence many times.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:55.680
Sure.
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:04.160
But you live a full life and you have a joyous life and it doesn't bother you, then who cares?
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:05.519
Who cares?
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:06.559
Right?
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:10.799
So sceliosis is a name given to anything over 10 degrees, right?
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:12.480
But it doesn't define who you are.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.400
You can live a f full life if you treat it appropriately.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:17.359
That's so good.
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:22.000
Don't don't I don't almost label or identify yourself as it.
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.039
You have it, it's being treated.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:28.559
But live life despite of it.
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:29.680
But that's where it ends.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.119
It doesn't define you.
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:31.680
Alright.
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:32.799
That's good.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:34.319
Wow, that's good.
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:35.359
Thank you for that.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:37.200
Um all right.
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:42.480
I want to talk a little bit about so so I read all right.
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.440
This is controversial in my head.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:53.759
I read on Claire's site that uh they emphasize non-invasive care, which which I get.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:56.000
I get why they call it non-invasive.
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:58.160
Oh, here we go.
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:03.359
So I've I've one, I've been adjusted by you.
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:07.039
So um that's a little contradictory in my head.
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:15.359
Um, no, it it is non-invasive, I get that, but it's very um trying to use a good nice word.
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:18.000
That's a good word.
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:19.519
We'll go with aggressive.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:33.279
Um, but so how does how does that differ from traditional approaches like like we'll call it surgery even um certain types of bracing like outside of the chiropractic world?
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.240
Um how how does that differ?
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.920
Uh like the non-invasive care question.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:45.839
So non-invasive versus invasive, uh, and the medical models, which you're the question you're actually getting at.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:49.839
So in a medical model, invasive is surgery, right?
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.640
Or you know, any any variation of that.
00:33:53.039 --> 00:34:01.039
Um, and many times, specifically when you start getting into you know 40, 50 degree curves and they want to do surgery, you know, surgery doesn't end there.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:05.359
You're almost always going to have another surgery and another surgery.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.599
It's just the beginning of a a disaster.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:11.760
The spine's meant to move, and what surgery does is it stops it from moving.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:14.480
So then it has accelerated degeneration, right?
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.880
So it's just a matter of time before you have your other surgery.
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:17.280
Sure.
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:24.159
But so what we're getting into, the discussion we're having is um is it invasive?
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:25.760
Meaning, are we doing surgery?
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:27.280
No, we're not doing surgery.
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:28.239
Is it fun?
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:29.440
Not always.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:30.480
Um caring.
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:32.320
No, not ever.
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.760
Uh caring our office is pretty boring as as a whole.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:37.199
The adjustments are very aggressive.
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.719
I'm going to make changes while you're on my table for two minutes.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.440
I'm not there to make be your friend, right?
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:49.039
There are certain adjustments that are better than others, but for two minutes, it is what it is, and then you can move on.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:53.360
And the pain or the soreness or whatever you have kind of goes away immediately afterwards.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.920
But we're gonna make massive changes really quickly.
00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:56.320
Right.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:00.239
Um, hence, you know, we can take 14 degrees off your sceliosis in 10 days.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.239
Yeah, but we make massive changes quickly.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:02.480
Yeah.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:07.599
And most of our patients are not local, so if we make those massive changes, we send them on.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:08.000
Right.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.559
So invasive, more of a surgery route.
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:13.119
Non-invasive is pretty much anything outside of that.
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:19.760
So adjustments or bracing, those are classified as non-invasives, even though they are aggressive.
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:25.440
Um, and you'll probably attest to them, probably the most aggressive adjustment you've had.
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:30.480
And I'm probably the most aggressive anywhere close to us as far as state-wise.
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:31.280
Yeah.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.000
Now I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:41.360
Do you still recommend bracing or do you recommend bracing?
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:47.039
Well, and what type of bracing in certain cases or in all cases for your sceliosis patients?
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:54.079
Uh, you know, when you're getting into sceliosis, uh, we need to start classifying a uh the risk of progression.
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:54.800
Right?
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:56.800
So you and me were done growing.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:03.440
If we have sceliosis and we'll just say it's at 15 degrees, it's pretty much gonna stay stable for the most part.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.599
Unless something happens, it's gonna be stable.
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:21.119
Versus uh if we have a young kid that has still a ton of growing yet to do, and we can get into the the science of that, but we'll just say they have a ton of growing yet to do, um, and they have a relatively progressive sceliosis, meaning it's gonna be 20, 30 plus degrees.
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:24.559
That's going to require more action, more aggression.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:32.880
So we while we could do the clear institute cares, we could take you know 10, 15 degrees, 20 degrees off your sceliosis, whatever, however the body reacts.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.840
The brace is going to be like taking me home every day.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:37.920
And so it's going to be more aggressive.
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:40.239
Now, historically, braces don't work.
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:40.880
Right?
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:43.280
This is why my mentor didn't like them.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:50.239
Historically, they don't work, they at best stabilize things because they're created in a two-dimensional form.
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:56.000
Uh, the brace that I use in the office, uh, it took me years to get involved and years for them to prove to me it worked.
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:56.239
Right.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:57.360
It works pretty well.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:57.840
Yeah.
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:02.159
As you can attest, it works pretty well as long as we're using it, it works.
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:03.760
It works in three dimensions.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.719
Like sceliosis is a three-dimensional diagnosis.
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.079
So that's where we get into kind of more of a bracing.
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:14.559
Um, do we we want to use those with the aggressive sceliosis, right?
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:22.559
So if somebody comes in and they're at a 15-degree curve and there we'll call them 14 years old, they obviously have some growing to to do.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:24.639
Uh, would you recommend a brace in that situation?
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:25.280
Probably not.
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:25.760
Okay.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:26.800
Probably not, right?
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:32.400
Because at 14 years old, whether you're male or female, you're almost done growing based on their x-rays.
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:36.559
You can look at their wrist or you can look at their hips, depending on which kind of doctor you are.
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:42.239
Uh, but they're getting close to being done, and 15 degrees really isn't that bad in the scheme of things.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.639
If we get into the math, it's not really that bad.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:44.960
Right.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:50.480
Um, when you start getting above 30 degrees, then you're like, okay, we need to really do something about this soon.
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:50.800
Yeah.
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:55.599
Um, and there's some different doctors, even clear doctors, that will kind of dispute what I'm saying right now.
00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:01.760
But as a whole, we both will all agree that it's not uh very likely for it to progress.
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:12.960
But there's more doctors that will say, hey, let's just throw everything at it, even if it's 15 degrees and take it down to two, and then when you're done growing, it's relatively stable at two degrees.
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:22.239
Three conversations, three completely different corners of this profession, but here's what I think connects them.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:22.960
Dr.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:33.679
Daniel is talking about how you show up for your patient, not just technically, but in how you make them feel understood and certain about their care.
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:37.519
The adjustment is only as good as the trust that surrounds it.
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.000
Dr.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:48.559
Peter is talking about the patience and humility of patients, and humility that real mastery actually requires.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:39:05.119
Nine months just to begin feeling a, again, what he calls a neural and also nine months of showing up and not quite getting it yet and showing up again, that is what the work actually asked for.
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:06.000
And Dr.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:17.599
Justice asked us not to get back to asking after the first and first because audio is not who you are, it's something.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:24.880
And it is something that is what the show has always tried to get, right?
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:27.840
It's not just about the adjustments, it's about the approach.
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:34.239
Everything that makes the adjustment beyond the road, right?
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.840
Beyond adjustments, we are coming back.
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:44.320
We are getting everything stored up with a wonderful new graphic and video editing.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.639
Now, just about the job, childhood statements, thank you.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:56.000
And there are some conversations in the pipeline that I am genuinely excited to bring in.
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:57.440
They're good, right?
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.320
In the meantime, go back, listen to the full episode.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.719
There is a lot more content in each of them.
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:06.079
I'm Amin Said.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:07.920
Thank you for being here.
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:10.800
We will see you in the next one.
00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:04.240
What's up, everybody?
00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:06.160
Welcome back to Beyond Adjustments.
00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:08.000
I'm your host, Amin Saeed.
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:10.720
So we've been gone for a minute, you know, a couple weeks.
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:15.679
If you're a regular here, you noticed that, and I want to address it because I think you deserve that much.
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Two reasons.
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Number one, it's summer.
00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:19.600
I have a family.
00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:21.359
We're doing family things.
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We are present, right?
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:24.239
We're enjoying it.
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And I am genuinely not apologizing for that.
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It's been a good summer.
00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:33.039
Number two, we had a change in our production company.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:37.359
And yeah, so that's that happened.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:41.840
And we're not gonna get into the details of that today because this is not that kind of show.
00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:44.159
But yeah, you know how it goes sometimes.
00:00:44.320 --> 00:01:00.479
Okay, so while we've been in this, you know, whole transition, enjoying the summer, sorting out the production side of things, we went back through our archive and we pulled three clips, three moments from past episodes that stuck with me long after we stopped recording.
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:09.200
And that is actually saying something because we have had a lot of incredible conversations on this show.
00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:16.000
But these three specifically, there's something about them that I just kind of kept going back, right?
00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.120
And it just kind of kept coming back to me, also.
00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:23.680
So something that shifted how I think about this the profession in general.
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:27.280
So that is what this episode is, right?
00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:35.599
So no new interview, just three moments that are worth revisiting with a little context from me going into each one.
00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.519
So let's get into it.
00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:50.560
My dad did not understand in his brain how I could quit a job that I was good at and gonna get promotions in and go do something completely new and completely different.
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:52.079
Can you explain torsion?
00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:52.879
Torsion.
00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:58.799
Uh imagine taking a rubber band and stretching it and turning it and turning it and turning it and turning it.
00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:03.280
If I take my pinky and I put it uh right here, I'm on my atlas vertebra.
00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:03.519
Okay.
00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:13.039
But if I take that same pinky, put it onto the neck of a child, it could be on the atlas, the axis, third cervical, maybe even the fourth cervical, depending on the size of that person.
00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:15.919
All right, clip number one.
00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:17.759
This is from my conversation with Dr.
00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:20.080
Daniel Kimberly, a good friend of mine.
00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:29.039
And if you have not heard that full episode yet, I really want you to go back and find it after this because we covered a lot of ground.
00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:34.080
Uh, but here's what I want to set up for you going into this moment.
00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:39.599
So we're deep into a conversation about where chiropractors kind of overcomplicate things.
00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:49.120
Like, what's the actual gap between someone who is technically excellent and someone who builds a practice that works, right?
00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:50.800
Where does that split happen?
00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:51.520
And Dr.
00:02:51.680 --> 00:03:04.719
Daniel makes this case, and I remember when he said it, I just kind of stepped back and he makes the case that communication, not technique, is where most chiropractors drop the ball.
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:06.960
And then he takes it one step further.
00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:12.080
He argues that communication might actually be more important than the adjustment itself.
00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:22.479
Now, if you're a chiropractor and you just heard that your gut might just push back, I mean mind it a little, but listen to how he frames it.
00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:33.919
And then we get into social media, the crack and pop culture on Instagram, what that has kind of done to the profession's ability to communicate its actual value.
00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:39.520
And I will tell you right now, I had to hold myself back a little in this conversation.
00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:40.479
You'll see why.
00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:41.919
Here's the clip.
00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.240
Where do you where do you see chiropractors overcomplicating things?
00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:51.599
Like the most, like the most, really, like instead of just kind of mastering the basics.
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:54.240
I think there's a couple of places, and you hit both of them.
00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:56.560
Is I'm big on communication.
00:03:56.800 --> 00:04:16.720
Always happened, even in Cairo school, I was like, I just I came from a background where like my dad did not understand in his brain how I could quit a job that I was good at and gonna get promotions in and go do something completely new and completely different and like take the risk to do it, sell off everything we had.
00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:23.439
So, like to me, I always wanted to know like how could I explain this so clearly that my dad would understand it.
00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:32.560
And I think communication is one of those places where a lot of Kairos just like think I'll figure it out later.
00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:35.040
Um, and I've just been obsessed with this.
00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:40.399
So I think communication is one for sure, and we can dive more into that on like a tactical level if you want to.
00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:49.040
But I think, yeah, I think you hit it too when you talked about the technique piece of it, is like I'm I think technique's important, but nobody cares what it's called.
00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:51.680
They just want to see a result from it.
00:04:51.839 --> 00:05:03.759
This is the problem that I really see with people is like, especially students in school, they'll spend their entire three years in school plus learning technique.
00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:06.720
And I'm not saying it's wrong, but this is the issue that I see.
00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:11.360
They get out into the world and it's like nobody cares because they can't explain it.
00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:14.079
And nobody cares because they can't communicate it.
00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:20.399
So then they have this like really cool looking Instagram re-worthy technique that nobody gives a crap about.
00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:25.680
And I'm like, dude, you gotta, you gotta have both of those things, which are so fundamental.
00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:31.199
And I think the communication is arguably more important than the adjustment in some ways.
00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:32.160
Absolutely.
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:33.360
Yeah, so true.
00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:40.160
And and and maybe we do get down to kind of the practical sense and and and cover a little bit tactically what that looks like.
00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:47.680
But before we do, um, what what fundamentals do you think are really like the non-negotiables, right?
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:50.000
No matter what technique someone practices.
00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:52.399
You obviously got to be able to do a good exam.
00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:56.160
So, and I think that plays into like you got to know where you're gonna adjust somebody.
00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.160
And so, like, I take a very brain-based approach.
00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.680
So we're like measuring different lobes of the brain and doing some cool testing.
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:05.920
And like while I'm biased, and I would say that's the only way to do it.
00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.000
Um, it's you just one, it's confidence first and foremost.
00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:19.839
But then two, being able to have some semblance of like, all right, do you know what to do with this person that definitively is going to get them a good result and outcome?
00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:26.000
And from there, man, like it doesn't, doesn't have to get complicated beyond that.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.120
Like people ask me all the time when they see the Arthur stand, they're like, that's it.
00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.199
I have patients who ask me, like, that's it.
00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:40.959
But because I'm so confident and like I know exactly what their body needed through the analysis that I do, it doesn't have to look cool.
00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:47.279
It doesn't have to feel cool, it doesn't have to sound cool with a big, huge pop in a crack that gets millions of views on Insta.
00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:48.800
Don't get me started.
00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:50.480
So, like, you know what I mean?
00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.560
It's so it's it's I think it's really just those things.
00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:57.680
It's like, do you have a way to definitively say this is what this person's body needs?
00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:07.040
And I'm gonna make a clear distinction with you only because I've had the opportunity, which is so cool, to have the a couple of these conversations with you.
00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:14.800
I think that a lot of times we go in, especially in school, we're taught like when you see these things, this is what you do to that person.
00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:17.279
And that's how the medical profession is.
00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.959
They're like, when you see these symptoms that you prescribe this medication.
00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:27.600
And I think getting really good at Cairo is going, what is this person's body telling me that it needs?
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.519
And being able to figure that out, and then only deliver what that person's body needs.
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:33.920
And I think that's a huge distinction.
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:38.800
So then we're getting to an individual, like literally individualized care.
00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:41.040
Yeah, no, that's good.
00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:44.399
Um so so let's let's do that then.
00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:45.759
Let's let's go back.
00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:47.199
What does boring look like?
00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:51.600
What is mastering the basics look like tactically?
00:07:52.160 --> 00:08:09.279
If we talk about specific to technique, I I mean, dude, it really gets down to like the line of drive that you're using, how what your indicators are that you could say unequivocally every time, this is what this person's body's showing me.
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:16.800
Um, and it what what I find especially is like it's easy because you get in this groove where you get good at it.
00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:22.800
And then the hard part is like, now let me go learn whatever thing, whatever other therapy.
00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:34.879
And then that takes away from like becoming that 10,000 hour master of the craft of just doing the thing until you're literally so good at it that you have the confidence and be able to communicate it as well.
00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:46.000
So I really think it comes down to those two things is like not necessarily the palpation, but like the line of drive that you have, the knowing that you know that you know that when you put that input into their body, their body will be able to use it.
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:47.840
It's it's that simple.
00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:51.759
Well, and what is what does it look like from a communication perspective?
00:08:52.720 --> 00:09:12.559
Yeah, so I mean, I've dude, I have spent a ton, I spent eight years committed to like how do we communicate a message to somebody that's like completely outside of the box of anything they've ever heard before in a short enough time frame that they're not bored and like think you're crazy or trying to spit too much science at them.
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:19.039
And so for me, the number one thing is telling people the truth.
00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.720
Like that's what it has always boiled down to me.
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:30.559
So I'm not talking half truths, I'm not talking it like we just explain it this way because it's easy to explain that way.
00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.360
Um and I if you want me to, I will, but I don't want to get too far down that rabbit hole.
00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:44.159
But I think the thing is that telling someone the truth about how their body works and getting them to go, how come nobody's ever told me that before?
00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:49.440
Um, so what does that require on like a tactical level?
00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:59.919
Well, one, it requires a confidence and certainty that you know the science, but then that you can take that science and effectively communicate it in a way that like speaks directly to someone's pain point.
00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:05.679
That for me in my office is never just back pain or neck pain, like literally never ever.
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:07.679
So we're talking like third degree pains.
00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:16.720
And then having an understanding that we're not trying to sell somebody on chiropractic.
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:21.919
Like what you're really trying to sell them on is the fact that their body can heal.
00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:31.600
And I think that so often it's easy to be like chiropractic's so great and the body knows how to heal itself and all this stuff, but you gotta remember like you're sitting in front of a person.
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:36.480
And so much of what I've experienced, even this week, dude, I could share some crazy stories.
00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:47.200
It's like my unequivocal dedication to telling someone the truth and letting them know that their body's capable of healing outside of like being obsessed with chiropractic.
00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:49.279
It's not about chiropractic, it's about the person.
00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:50.639
Nobody they don't care about chiropractic.
00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:52.559
They want to know how can you help me.
00:10:53.120 --> 00:11:01.519
And when you can like nail that so well, dude, it makes it undeniable that people will see you and stick with you and refer to you and all the other stuff.
00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:02.080
Sure.
00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:04.399
That everybody wants to get without doing the work.
00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:05.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:06.000
Yeah.
00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.639
So so I want to tie a couple things together, right?
00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.120
So you you made you made a comment earlier, right?
00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:26.000
You're you know, you're talking about confidence, you're talking about, you know, clear communication, you know, we're talking about just all this stuff tactic tactically, but you made a comment earlier about um the the the cracks and the pops on social media.
00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:27.919
And and I said, don't get me started, right?
00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.600
But yeah, I want to go back to that for a second because I think it's important.
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:39.600
Um, because I think that's diluted um or made it even harder for chiropractors to really practice the way they need to.
00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:42.399
Listen, I I'm I'm all for that.
00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:44.799
You guys want views on Instagram?
00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:46.720
Um, I I get it, right?
00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:52.960
You're trying to get a following, it's all power to you, uh, but let's not lose the message, is my opinion, right?
00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:55.919
And I think we do at times, and it becomes this game, right?
00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:57.279
Oh, that was a good crack.
00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:57.919
Oh, great.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:59.440
Okay, that's extra bubbles coming.
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:04.480
You know, come come on, like let's get let's get down to the science, let's focus more on what you're talking about.
00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:17.200
Let's talk about actually convincing people that our bodies are designed the way they are on purpose and that they're designed to heal themselves, but we have to get them into a place that where, you know, it needs to function properly in order to do that.
00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:20.240
So let's let's get back to that kind of basic, right?
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:28.879
So, my question to you there is do you think social media has made chiropractors feel like they need to be more complex, right?
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:30.399
To be taken seriously.
00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:32.240
I mean, dude, I think about this all the time.
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.399
And it like, I know this is a problem.
00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:41.919
I have friends who are going to message me after they watch this episode and they're gonna be like, dude, why you gotta hate on why you gotta hate on my technique like that?
00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:43.120
Like, I know they're gonna do it.
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.879
So, like, I'm gonna say for the record, like I am not hating on it.
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:48.320
I just think there's a better way.
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:50.879
So, like the Y strap would be one of those.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:52.399
Like somebody lays down.
00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.039
I'm like, how do you know what's moving and what's not moving?
00:12:57.919 --> 00:12:59.200
So that's one thing.
00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:03.120
And again, dude, like I'm not trying to be a hater because I see that people can get results with it.
00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.440
I've seen people who've had terrible results with it.
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:11.840
Um and like time and time again in my practice is what I see is like we just get consistently good results.
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:13.200
So that would be one example.
00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:28.639
Or the other is like, all right, I gotta go now learn a technique where I stand on the table and I like cup somebody's head and I'm like straddling them and I'm like rubbing up against their shoulder and they're like heads in mine and I'm breathing on them and like to do this adjustment.
00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:34.159
And I'm like, dude, I'm pretty sure that we don't like we don't need the theatrics.
00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:34.879
Yeah.
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.360
And so, like, even though it, I think so.
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.519
That's where social media comes in, really, is like, we don't need the theatrics.
00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:47.440
What we need is to just show people that, like, hey, you can get really, really good results.
00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:51.840
And it's just become this like watered down, like the crack is the thing.
00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:52.399
Yeah.
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:58.960
Which we know, like, dude, all of Heidi's research points to like that's only true sometimes.
00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:07.039
And there are indicators that go with when you adjust a certain segment, that and that segment needs it based on her criteria.
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.360
That's the only time we get the input to the frontal cortex that dampened the N30 amplitude.
00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:21.679
So, like this like global, let's just pop everything approach, like scientifically, based on the best chiropractic research that I've seen, is not validated at all.
00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:27.360
And it's a bummer because then there's people like me who like you look at it and it's like that doesn't look cool on camera at all.
00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:33.759
But I can tell you when a kid has had seizures their entire life and they stop having seizures, like that's pretty cool.
00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:34.720
Yeah, oh yeah.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:35.279
A hundred percent.
00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:36.639
You know what I mean?
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.720
Yeah, that one gets me every time.
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:48.639
The Instagram realign, a really cool-looking technique that nobody gives a crap about because that is real.
00:14:49.279 --> 00:15:03.120
You can be the most technically gifted person in the room, but if the patient in front of you does not understand what you're doing and why it matters for them specifically, you've already lost them.
00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:13.039
And I think that kind of tension between the technical mastery and communication mastery is something this profession is still working through, in my opinion, at least.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.000
So though those are kind of two completely different skill sets, and you need both.
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:19.600
Alright, clip two.
00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:23.279
This is from my conversation with Dr.
00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:24.799
Peter Kavorkian.
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:25.519
Uh, Dr.
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:29.440
Peter, and this was the first time he was on the show, not the second time.
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:30.320
And Dr.
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:38.639
Peter brings a level of experience and kind of philosophical depth to this work that I genuinely respect.
00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:57.440
The part I want you to hear is where we get into pediatric care, specifically what it actually takes to be competent, adjusting children, infants, specifically, because there is a real misconception out there that it is just a scaled-down version of what you do with adults, right?
00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:58.080
And Dr.
00:15:58.159 --> 00:15:59.679
Peter dismantles that.
00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:05.039
His whole philosophy is less is more with kids.
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:19.679
And the way he explains why, including how long it personally took him to develop the sensitivity to feel what he called the craniorhmic impulse when he was learning the cranial work.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:28.559
It is one of those answers that makes you realize how deep the craft actually goes when practitioners commit to it fully.
00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.519
And then I kind of put him on the spot a little bit.
00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:38.000
He had this thing called the phenomenal minute, kind of short accessible chiropractic education.
00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:42.480
And I gave him a question that I genuinely used to be afraid of years ago.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:47.600
Can someone get paralyzed from a uh chiropractic adjustment?
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.639
Well, watch how he handles it.
00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.039
You mentioned that it starts from birth, right?
00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.879
The way your body is okay.
00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:02.480
So with with Westwood, right, your your your practice.
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.400
Yeah you you you care for all ages, right?
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:18.880
So but what I would say what what unique considerations do you take uh or do you teach your associates to take um when when treating uh children, right, versus adults.
00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:32.640
So the uh the the the process of pediatric care adjustments of uh a young child uh has been around literally since the beginning of the profession.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:33.039
Okay.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:40.000
But the true uh development of uh focused for pediatric care, I'm gonna give credit to Dr.
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:41.039
Larry Webster.
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:46.960
Larry Webster, uh who was the developer and creator of the Webster technique you might have heard of.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:47.759
I have, yeah.
00:17:48.480 --> 00:18:14.079
Larry Webster was the founder of the ICPA, the International Chiroprada Pediatric Association, and really felt as though chiropractors, although they got some um introduction to caring for children in chiropractic school, that that that there was work that could really be done to elevate the uh specificity and proficiency and competency of the chiropractor adjusting children.
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:19.920
You know, if I take my pinky and I put it uh right here, I I'm on my atlas vertebra, okay?
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:28.960
But if I take that same pinky, put it onto the neck of a child, it could be on the atlas, the axis, the third cervical, maybe even the fourth cervical, depending on the size of that person.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:41.680
So how do you find a way to put a force in very specifically to an area of the spine without engaging more areas of the spine, without over uh putting too much force into the body?
00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:48.400
Uh the indicators that we look at in in an adult an adult can sometimes be very, very, very evident.
00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.799
And a child becomes a little bit more subtle.
00:18:51.119 --> 00:19:05.519
Uh so honing in your skills of being able to evaluate a child or an infant or newborn and being able to specifically apply a corrective force, the adjustment to that child requires training.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:07.920
Um the ICPA offers that.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:15.519
Uh my associates uh uh have been trained through the ICPA as well as uh within my practice.
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:23.680
Uh but the um you know the there's no simple thing I can tell you in in in words.
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:29.039
It's just oh do this and you could be uh a chiropractor for adults and then take care of kids.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:34.799
It requires a different level of uh training, awareness, sensitivity.
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:49.920
Yes, many of the things that we know relative to adults translate down into a pediatric spine, but but there are nuances and um subtleties that really need to be uh developed.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:50.240
Yeah.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:20:09.039
Uh I remember the first time that I uh was trying to learn cranial work, okay, which is uh adjusting the the cranial bulbs, which you can do in adults, but but uh but particularly with with with children because the cranium is still so pliable and the spinal cord attaches throughout the cranium.
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:16.480
The covering of the spine, uh called the meninges, attaches not not just to the spinal cord, but also attaches throughout the cranium.
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:25.039
So you can make an impact and effect into the entire spine by by by taking care of of a cranium, particularly in a child.
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:33.599
Uh but I remember the first time that it was palpating, the cranial rhythmatic impulse, the the very subtle sensation of the movement of the cerebral spinal floor.
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.799
I didn't feel nothing.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:42.400
It took me over nine months to to really begin to hone in and develop skill of being able to feel the cranial rhythmic impulse.
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.839
So it takes patience, uh watching subtleties.
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:54.000
Um the general rule of thumb that I will tell every chiropractor with kids, infants, babies, less is more.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.359
Less is more.
00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:57.440
Less facts usually get you further.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.720
Less less less contacts, less input into the system usually gives you more.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:05.119
Good answer.
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:05.759
I love that.
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.720
So I I I noticed some videos that you have out there.
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.720
Um I believe you called it the phenomenal minute, right?
00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:17.519
Um so I I I I did watch a few.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:27.920
It it really uh I I would say it provides, I guess, accessible uh um bite-sized education on chiropractic care.
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:33.440
What what inspired this uh initiative really and and how do you see it empowering patients?
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:40.880
So um if you saw me and you said, Hey Pete, how's it going today?
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.720
My usual answer is phenomenal.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.559
Phenomenal phenomenal is my work.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:44.799
Okay.
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.039
So I I I I your patients would say, uh what's going on today?
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:50.319
Things are phenomenal.
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:51.359
Love it.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:52.480
Love it.
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.640
So I and I've done that for ages.
00:21:54.799 --> 00:22:01.599
Um a very, very good friend of mine, colleague of mine in Praxon, Massachusetts, uh uh Doctor Jean-Marc Slack.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:05.279
Uh when you asked him, he got a phrase that he learned from Sid Williams.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.759
He says, Well, this friend Jackson says, Near perfect.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:19.839
And so so Jean-Marc had actually started a um a weekly video similar to my thing called the Near Perfect Minute.
00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:31.119
And so it would be his opportunity to get out on social media and share something uh with his practice members, his community, that he called the near perfect minute.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.400
So he inspired me.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:35.359
I I I never say near perfect, but I say phenomenal.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:37.680
I called it Peter's Phenomenal Minute.
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:38.079
I love it.
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:54.799
And what it was was a one minute, maybe 90 second thing about something relative to chiropractic, uh personal growth, uh chiropractic practice, um like uh w w what might be I I would say something like this Dr.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:56.799
Peter with today's phenomenal minute.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:02.559
People ask me, can he hurt somebody by giving them an adjustment?
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.519
So I'd ask the question, then I would give an answer to it.
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:10.240
You know, or um you know, why should kids get adjusted?
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:11.680
And I give an answer for it.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:13.759
Can can people would have a question?
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.759
Can we do a phenomenal minute right now?
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:16.079
Sure.
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:29.039
Alright, um I'm gonna go I'm gonna go extreme I'm gonna go extreme on this one because I really did believe that you can get paralyzed um from from an adjustment.
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.200
This was years ago, just admittedly, but here's my question.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:42.079
Can someone get or can someone be paralyzed as a result of chiropractic care?
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:42.799
This is Dr.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:44.480
Peter with today's phenomenon.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:52.960
Can somebody become paralyzed or permanently injured through chiropractic adjustments?
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.480
The god honest answer is no.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:03.599
If a spinal adjustment is what is being delivered, you cannot be hurt or injured.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:14.559
An adjustment is a very specific gentle force application to allow the body to have less nerve interference, the body is never better off with nerve interference.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:30.799
So if the chiropractor is delivering a spinal adjustment to allow sublications of nerve interference to be corrected, to allow better nerve supply, that is never traumatic, it is never harmful, and can only do good.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:35.519
Now, if the question was, can chiropractor hurt somebody?
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.160
Could you drive your car into a brick wall?
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.599
Could you jump out of a 50-store building?
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:43.039
And would that hurt?
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:44.160
Absolutely.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.880
The chiropractor would need to do something that really is not a final adjustment.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:51.599
But I'm gonna give you the truth.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.720
If chiropractors were hurting people, it would be reflected in their malpractice rates.
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:04.480
The amount that I paid for malpractice insurance for millions of dollars worth of coverage was less than I paid for my auto insurance.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:05.279
Wow.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.799
It's one of the safest forms of health care.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.279
I have to say that's phenomenal.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:18.240
But realize the question that you asked me was chiropractic care.
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.400
So first I needed to define for you an adjustment.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:27.279
I noticed final adjustment that never harms and can only do good by its definition.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:27.599
Yeah.
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:31.920
Now, could a chiropractor put an inappropriate force into a person's body?
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:32.559
Sure.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:38.400
Much of that would be volitional or unconscious or unethical to be to be able to do that.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.079
Could something occur that I don't think anything is possible.
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:42.480
Sure.
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:45.680
You know, uh a plane could land on me right now and kill me.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:46.160
Right.
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.240
Anything, anything, anything is possible.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:50.720
Right.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:55.359
But if indeed it was happening a lot, it would be reflected in our insurance rates.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:56.400
Gotcha.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:02.240
Alright, last one, clip three, is from my conversation with Dr.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:08.240
Justin Dick, who practices scoliosis care under the Clear Institute methodology.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:08.799
Dr.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:13.039
Justin holds a special place in my heart and always will.
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:18.880
He worked with my children, both have scoliosis, as you guys know, and save them from surgery.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.480
Gotta really use his hands to get them aligned anyway.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:24.160
I'll be honest.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:32.559
With you going into this conversation, I thought I had kind of a pretty solid understanding of scoliosis, especially because of our kind of walk with our children.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:39.039
I knew it was a curvature, I knew it was, you know, measured in degrees, I thought it was kind of typically as shaped.
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:40.960
Um, that was about the extent of it.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.400
I mean I knew a little bit more, but I I thought I knew, right?
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:45.680
I I was wrong.
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.200
Like, not just a little wrong, like structurally wrong.
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:49.920
Dr.
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:59.519
Justin takes a three-dimensional kind of biomechanics approach to scoliosis, which is actually how the condition works, right?
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:02.400
It is three-dimensional by definition.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:15.519
And the way he explains what is happening in the spine using the rubber band analogy for for the torsion is the clearest explanation I have ever heard on the topic.
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.279
Like, period, point blank.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:20.000
And then we get into bracing, which is nuanced, right?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:34.160
He he does not just say it worked or it does not work, he gets into which patients actually need it, why historically bracing largely failed, and what is different about the approach he uses.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:42.880
And there's one moment in there when he talks about the diagnosis just being a number that I think is worth the whole clip by itself.
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:44.000
Here you go.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:49.279
So let's let's talk a little bit about understanding scoliosis.
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:57.200
So, scoliosis, at least for me and and from the people I've spoken to about it, the the layman we'll call it, right?
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.680
Um, it's really it's misunderstood.
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:07.839
So, could you explain uh what it is and why uh early detection and treatment are critical?
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:09.359
This is a great question.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:12.640
Uh so scoliosis as a whole, nobody knows what it is.
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:12.960
Yeah.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:14.079
As a whole, right?
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:20.799
Uh it's measured by a side curvature on an X-ray that comes from front to back or back to front.
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:24.319
Uh every doctor in the world knows is bad news.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.319
Every doctor knows how to measure it, but that's all you're ever taught.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:39.039
Some of the new surgeries, some of the new stuff that's coming in, some of the stuff that I'm doing, uh, we're starting to pinpoint more of okay, here's the biomechanics of it, and here's what's going on.
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.480
Uh so my mentor, Dr.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:48.400
Wogan, was a biomechanics teacher, and so if it got there, his uh his objective was well, why can't we reverse engineer it?
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:56.960
All right, so when we're looking at sceliosis itself, we'll look at the spine in three dimensions, not just from the front, not just how we measure it.
00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:59.920
This is a side effect of actually what's happening.
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:10.480
So when we're looking at sceliosis from the side, the most important x-rays from the side, we want a good curve in our neck, a good curve where our ribs are, and a good curve in our low back.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:11.359
Right.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.400
100% of sceliosis cases don't have that.
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:22.400
Alright, so when the spine moves, almost always the spine, the each individual vertebra comes backwards and it rotates.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:24.240
Comes backwards and it rotates.
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.200
And here's where I have issues with chiropractors.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:33.680
They adjust this one bone, but when they adjust one bone, they're moving essentially multiple at a time.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:40.240
So imagine taking your spine that you have these good curves here, and these good curves start to go away.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.960
It's not like you just grow up and out.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:50.480
Actually, what happens is if you take your spine and you lose the good curves, it starts to rotate and rotate and rotate and rotate.
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:54.160
Eventually, it creates so much torsion that it comes out to the side.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:57.119
And that's what sceliosis is so far.
00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:58.799
Can you explain torsion?
00:29:59.200 --> 00:29:59.759
Torsion.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:05.839
Uh imagine taking a rubber band and stretching it and turning it and turning it and turning it and turning it.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.319
It creates so much tension in there that it has to have somewhere to go.
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.920
So the the rubber band will come out to the side and come back up.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:15.920
So it's a rotation.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:25.599
So whenever you if you have a diagnosis of sceliosis and the doctor says, Oh my goodness, you have so much rotation in there, you'd be like, Well, you can't have sceliosis without it, by definition.
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:27.440
Sceliosis is rotation.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:28.160
Gotcha.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.480
So somebody that doesn't understand it very well.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:33.920
I'd say I'd see college care somewhere else.
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.480
Um well, let me ask you this.
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:47.680
So my my plain understanding of scoliosis is that um it it's shaped like an S.
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:50.799
Is that always the case?
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:52.240
Or okay.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:53.599
No, say that a little.
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:55.039
There's many different types.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:58.880
Sceliosis is just a measurement of 10 degrees, uh, a cob angle.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:30:59.759
That's how it's measured.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:00.079
Okay.
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:07.839
So you take the curve and you take the most tilted at the top, most tilted at the bottom, and measure them together, and that's what they call the cob angle.
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:14.000
So as long as I that cob angle could be anywhere in the body, it could be one, it could be five, could be six.
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:16.400
They're just measuring the cob angles in there.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:20.000
So the curves from the fronts or from the back to the front.
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.759
As long as there's uh something over 10 degrees and it's classified as sceliosis.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:30.480
I I want to get kind of get this right without being too nasty.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.720
Um sceliosis is just a number.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:40.960
If you're married to that number and you're married to that diagnosis, nobody can help you.
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:44.160
It's just a name, it doesn't mean anything.
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:44.720
Wow.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.359
Right?
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.319
So I I I use a kind of a crude analogy.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:55.279
Um I mean, if you have stage four cancer, right, which is a death sentence many times.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:55.680
Sure.
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:04.160
But you live a full life and you have a joyous life and it doesn't bother you, then who cares?
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:05.519
Who cares?
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:06.559
Right?
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:10.799
So sceliosis is a name given to anything over 10 degrees, right?
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:12.480
But it doesn't define who you are.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.400
You can live a f full life if you treat it appropriately.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:17.359
That's so good.
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:22.000
Don't don't I don't almost label or identify yourself as it.
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.039
You have it, it's being treated.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:28.559
But live life despite of it.
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:29.680
But that's where it ends.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.119
It doesn't define you.
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:31.680
Alright.
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:32.799
That's good.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:34.319
Wow, that's good.
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:35.359
Thank you for that.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:37.200
Um all right.
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:42.480
I want to talk a little bit about so so I read all right.
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.440
This is controversial in my head.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:53.759
I read on Claire's site that uh they emphasize non-invasive care, which which I get.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:56.000
I get why they call it non-invasive.
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:58.160
Oh, here we go.
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:03.359
So I've I've one, I've been adjusted by you.
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:07.039
So um that's a little contradictory in my head.
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:15.359
Um, no, it it is non-invasive, I get that, but it's very um trying to use a good nice word.
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:18.000
That's a good word.
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:19.519
We'll go with aggressive.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:33.279
Um, but so how does how does that differ from traditional approaches like like we'll call it surgery even um certain types of bracing like outside of the chiropractic world?
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.240
Um how how does that differ?
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.920
Uh like the non-invasive care question.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:45.839
So non-invasive versus invasive, uh, and the medical models, which you're the question you're actually getting at.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:49.839
So in a medical model, invasive is surgery, right?
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.640
Or you know, any any variation of that.
00:33:53.039 --> 00:34:01.039
Um, and many times, specifically when you start getting into you know 40, 50 degree curves and they want to do surgery, you know, surgery doesn't end there.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:05.359
You're almost always going to have another surgery and another surgery.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.599
It's just the beginning of a a disaster.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:11.760
The spine's meant to move, and what surgery does is it stops it from moving.
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:14.480
So then it has accelerated degeneration, right?
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.880
So it's just a matter of time before you have your other surgery.
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:17.280
Sure.
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:24.159
But so what we're getting into, the discussion we're having is um is it invasive?
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:25.760
Meaning, are we doing surgery?
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:27.280
No, we're not doing surgery.
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:28.239
Is it fun?
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:29.440
Not always.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:30.480
Um caring.
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:32.320
No, not ever.
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.760
Uh caring our office is pretty boring as as a whole.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:37.199
The adjustments are very aggressive.
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.719
I'm going to make changes while you're on my table for two minutes.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.440
I'm not there to make be your friend, right?
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:49.039
There are certain adjustments that are better than others, but for two minutes, it is what it is, and then you can move on.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:53.360
And the pain or the soreness or whatever you have kind of goes away immediately afterwards.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.920
But we're gonna make massive changes really quickly.
00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:56.320
Right.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:00.239
Um, hence, you know, we can take 14 degrees off your sceliosis in 10 days.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.239
Yeah, but we make massive changes quickly.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:02.480
Yeah.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:07.599
And most of our patients are not local, so if we make those massive changes, we send them on.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:08.000
Right.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.559
So invasive, more of a surgery route.
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:13.119
Non-invasive is pretty much anything outside of that.
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:19.760
So adjustments or bracing, those are classified as non-invasives, even though they are aggressive.
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:25.440
Um, and you'll probably attest to them, probably the most aggressive adjustment you've had.
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:30.480
And I'm probably the most aggressive anywhere close to us as far as state-wise.
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:31.280
Yeah.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.000
Now I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:41.360
Do you still recommend bracing or do you recommend bracing?
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:47.039
Well, and what type of bracing in certain cases or in all cases for your sceliosis patients?
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:54.079
Uh, you know, when you're getting into sceliosis, uh, we need to start classifying a uh the risk of progression.
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:54.800
Right?
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:56.800
So you and me were done growing.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:03.440
If we have sceliosis and we'll just say it's at 15 degrees, it's pretty much gonna stay stable for the most part.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.599
Unless something happens, it's gonna be stable.
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:21.119
Versus uh if we have a young kid that has still a ton of growing yet to do, and we can get into the the science of that, but we'll just say they have a ton of growing yet to do, um, and they have a relatively progressive sceliosis, meaning it's gonna be 20, 30 plus degrees.
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:24.559
That's going to require more action, more aggression.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:32.880
So we while we could do the clear institute cares, we could take you know 10, 15 degrees, 20 degrees off your sceliosis, whatever, however the body reacts.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.840
The brace is going to be like taking me home every day.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:37.920
And so it's going to be more aggressive.
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:40.239
Now, historically, braces don't work.
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:40.880
Right?
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:43.280
This is why my mentor didn't like them.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:50.239
Historically, they don't work, they at best stabilize things because they're created in a two-dimensional form.
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:56.000
Uh, the brace that I use in the office, uh, it took me years to get involved and years for them to prove to me it worked.
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:56.239
Right.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:57.360
It works pretty well.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:57.840
Yeah.
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:02.159
As you can attest, it works pretty well as long as we're using it, it works.
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:03.760
It works in three dimensions.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.719
Like sceliosis is a three-dimensional diagnosis.
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.079
So that's where we get into kind of more of a bracing.
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:14.559
Um, do we we want to use those with the aggressive sceliosis, right?
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:22.559
So if somebody comes in and they're at a 15-degree curve and there we'll call them 14 years old, they obviously have some growing to to do.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:24.639
Uh, would you recommend a brace in that situation?
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:25.280
Probably not.
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:25.760
Okay.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:26.800
Probably not, right?
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:32.400
Because at 14 years old, whether you're male or female, you're almost done growing based on their x-rays.
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:36.559
You can look at their wrist or you can look at their hips, depending on which kind of doctor you are.
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:42.239
Uh, but they're getting close to being done, and 15 degrees really isn't that bad in the scheme of things.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.639
If we get into the math, it's not really that bad.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:44.960
Right.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:50.480
Um, when you start getting above 30 degrees, then you're like, okay, we need to really do something about this soon.
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:50.800
Yeah.
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:55.599
Um, and there's some different doctors, even clear doctors, that will kind of dispute what I'm saying right now.
00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:01.760
But as a whole, we both will all agree that it's not uh very likely for it to progress.
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:12.960
But there's more doctors that will say, hey, let's just throw everything at it, even if it's 15 degrees and take it down to two, and then when you're done growing, it's relatively stable at two degrees.
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:22.239
Three conversations, three completely different corners of this profession, but here's what I think connects them.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:22.960
Dr.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:33.679
Daniel is talking about how you show up for your patient, not just technically, but in how you make them feel understood and certain about their care.
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:37.519
The adjustment is only as good as the trust that surrounds it.
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.000
Dr.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:48.559
Peter is talking about the patience and humility of patients, and humility that real mastery actually requires.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:39:05.119
Nine months just to begin feeling a, again, what he calls a neural and also nine months of showing up and not quite getting it yet and showing up again, that is what the work actually asked for.
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:06.000
And Dr.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:17.599
Justice asked us not to get back to asking after the first and first because audio is not who you are, it's something.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:24.880
And it is something that is what the show has always tried to get, right?
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:27.840
It's not just about the adjustments, it's about the approach.
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:34.239
Everything that makes the adjustment beyond the road, right?
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.840
Beyond adjustments, we are coming back.
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:44.320
We are getting everything stored up with a wonderful new graphic and video editing.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.639
Now, just about the job, childhood statements, thank you.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:56.000
And there are some conversations in the pipeline that I am genuinely excited to bring in.
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:57.440
They're good, right?
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.320
In the meantime, go back, listen to the full episode.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.719
There is a lot more content in each of them.
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:06.079
I'm Amin Said.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:07.920
Thank you for being here.
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:10.800
We will see you in the next one.
