Shawn Sundsvold: Welcome back to the Better Together podcast. I am Sean Sunsvold along with my co-host, Kelly Sunsvold. Today's guest has had the opportunity to build more than most. Jeff Burningham sold his first tech company before he turned 30. Then he built a real estate private equity firm that now owns billions in assets and has backed over 200 startups as a venture investor, including names like Spotify and MetaMask. Then he decided to take a step that most wouldn't even consider. He ran for governor of Utah and lost. What came next wasn't a quick pivot. It was a five-year, what he calls cave period, that reshaped him from entrepreneur and investor into author and speaker. His national best-selling book, The Last Book Written by a Human, dives into why the more powerful AI gets, the more human we need to become. So, Jeff, thanks for being here. Welcome to the show.
Jeff - Author: it's my pleasure to be with you, Sean and Kelly. Thanks for having me.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, so let's just kind of catch everybody up to you and where you are. For people who are just meeting you, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Jeff - Author: Well, I I loved your intro. Thanks, Sean. I think you did a great job. You said probably too much. I wanted to ask you guys, have you guys been through the dark night of the soul yet? This kind of cave period that I mentioned. Is this sounding reminiscent to you? I don't know. Well, good.
Kelly: Definitely is. I wanna pick up your book. Yes.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yes.
Jeff - Author: Yeah. I hope you will pick it up. I hope you'll check it out. The book is available on Audible and everywhere. Yeah, I'm a dad of four. I'm actually a grandpa, to one and and my daughter-in-law is pregnant with twins. So we'll be three here in a couple months. I'm married to my what I feel like is just my soulmate Sally. I often think that so much of the busyness, so much of the noise, everything could just fade away. And I think what remains, at least for me and for most humans, would be the love story. Whatever that you're unique love story is, you know, and that's not just with a partner, although that might be primary, but just the love that we share. So yeah, that's my background. But I I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've built lots of large companies, kind of lost my mind and ran for governor in 2020. I I started in 2019. Of course had no idea the pandemic was coming. If I did, I wouldn't have run. that's really what I was an underdog in the race because I'm a non-politician and I was running against two very well-known politicians. But what ultimately caused me to lose was the pandemic. There was just no way that a political outsider like myself was going to win in that environment. And then yeah, that thrust me back into venture capital and and investments and has led to this interesting winding road where I've been exploring. AI and humanity and the impact that AI is gonna have on humanity. And yeah, the one sentence thesis of the last book written by a human is that as our machines become more and more intelligent, we as humans have to become more wise. So there's a little bit more about me. I don't know.
Kelly: Yeah, it's really helpful. so let's kind of go back a little bit. You sold your first tech company to a NASDAQ listed company at just twenty-six or twenty-seven.
Jeff - Author: Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly: what did that moment feel like? Like did it feel like arrival
Jeff - Author: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: or like just a start to something bigger? Obviously it's been a little bit since you've had that sale.
Jeff - Author: Yeah, great question. And it was a month before I turned twenty-seven. So I was kind of twenty-six and twenty-seven or two months bef when I sold the first company. It felt like a rival for a minute. Isn't that what most th like when we have a goal and we have a little mountain, let's say that we're climbing up, it could feel good at the top for a second. But as I say in the in my book, There's nothing at the top of our mountains of accomplishment but a cold howling wind is what I said, what I wrote. Just kind of void and more more void on top of that. The point is outward accomplishment is not why we're here. You know, it's taken me decades to like embody that, to feel that, and to know that. But it's not about selling a company. So yeah, it felt cool to do that at age twenty six and twenty-seven. It's pretty unique. I was really young. And, you know, there was a mono, you know, there was a reward for that sale that was good for, you know, my age. It wasn't like I could retire and be done, but it was a good exit. So yeah, it felt good for a moment. But I think that the answers that we're all looking for are actually inside of us. They're not outside of us. So though even though we've been trained to look outside for validation, for, you know, acquiring other things, for things. It's not out there that we're ever gonna find peace. It's only in here. So I would say that it was the start, Kelly, of like maybe a journey more inside myself and less kind of outside myself.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective on that. And it you know, just kind of looking through your career, it it feels like it took a little bit to kind of get to that point of that sort of looking things through because, you know, you went from selling the business, you built another, you know, real estate business that invested in a number of different properties, you've you know, you've kind of been the startup guy and started a lot of different things. Is that a do you feel like that's a strength for you and like an ability that you just kinda are able to walk in and take things and pick them up and run?
Jeff - Author: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that I've taught a course as an adjunct professor at BYU that where I graduated from college for three or four years after the governor race, the kind of the years in between launching the book and running for governor. And it was a course on entrepreneurship and I'd have a thousand kids a year come through come to my class. And it was really a course about life. I called it the business of life. but yeah, that that's who I am. I'm a startup guy. I like the beginning. I like when the risk is taken out of the system or the company, I kind of lose interest. So
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm.
Jeff - Author: as soon as Peak Capital, the real estate firm that we created, had about a half a billion dollars in assets, about 500 million in assets, it was obvious that we were gonna be successful, more maybe successful than we ever even thought possible. And I honestly kind of started to lose interest because Yeah, it just wasn't exciting. Like it wasn't dynamic enough. And so that's when I launched a venture fund, by the way, is and that and that's why I did, because I like the startup. And you know, I I I don't think that there's really a demographic for entrepreneurship. I'm often asked, like, what is the key to to, you know, like who do you back? Young, old, you know, you know, whatever background you have. But I think that Entrepreneurs generally have a bias towards action. They rarely wait for permission. They just see a problem in the world and they go try to solve it. And so, and I think that's beautiful most of the time. Obviously, it could be taken too far, but I think that's beautiful. And I love to back entrepreneurs. I still am making an investment or two a month in startup entrepreneurs that that are have a bias towards action and are tackling big, exciting problems in. And that's definitely right down. Like that's my skill set. That's who I am. Kind of feeling a vision, seeing it. And then backing the right teams. It's all about the team. In a startup, in life, in entrepreneurship, it's actually about who you're doing it with. That's what it's really about. So really I'm I'm picking people that I want to be on a journey or ride with and that I believe in.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, like I think that's that's entrepreneurship is being able to to bring the people along that you want or set up the life that you want. there's a lot of flexibility in that and not working for the man. so peak capital, so it started during the Great Recession and almost didn't make it. what's the closest you ever came to actually losing it?
Jeff - Author: Yeah. It's a good question. Yeah, no,
Kelly: Hard question, right?
Jeff - Author: it's a no, it's a great question. I mean, I started it with two partners, two of my best friends. And still to this day. We started with nothing. We've now built, you know, a large company. And we're still friends. I'm really proud of that. I think the scariest moments were when we didn't agree, you know, when not everything and every partnership has ups and downs. I think that's what would have been most scary to me. It did get financially scary. Actually, not really for me, Kelly, because I had sold my technology company. My two partners, Jeff and Jamie, they had gone to Ivy League and get Ivy League MBAs, one at Dartmouth, one at Wharton. And and so they had, you know, business school debt. They hadn't had an exit like I had. And so one of them, you know, and these were sacrifices. This is humbling. You know, one of them moved in with their in-laws because we just it was hard. We didn't there was not revenue in the business for the first, I don't know, twelve to twenty-four months. So it
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm.
Jeff - Author: was a long road. The other one started receiving groceries on their doorstep, like over Christmas specifically. I remember. Like I mean, it was humbling. It was hard and it was beautiful. Sometimes it's good. We all need help sometimes and it's hard to accept that help at times. And it was a good kind of hard startup experience. We didn't we weren't sure if we were gonna make it. But I I I because I had had an exit, you know, I I wasn't I I it's interesting. I always believed we were gonna make it. I learned later that one or both of my partners, they started kind of looking around for like, if this doesn't work out, what am I gonna do? I never had I had the blinders on. I just thought it was gonna work. I had more financial runway too, maybe. But anyways, it's been a beautiful journey. I think the scariest times are always when you're working out interpersonal or strategy issue that you don't agree with. I'm sure you guys know nothing about that as business partners and parents and whatever all the other beautiful things you guys are. you know, like that's always can be hard. And so yeah, there It was it was lean and mean for the first couple years of Peak Capital and yeah, we almost didn't make it, but we did. And when we turned it around, we turned it around quite significantly. It's been
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah.
Jeff - Author: a fun ride.
Shawn Sundsvold: And it I I love the story too of like, you know, those I I think f every entrepreneur feels it right in those first sometimes year, two year, five years, you know, growing a business especially from nothing, right? It's it's a lot of work, it's a lot of time, it's a lot of building the systems And if nobody's ever done that before, you know, it can be really challenging and and testing, not only from a just a mental perspective, but from a a friendship perspective as you're sort of trying to figure out how how do we work together, right?
Jeff - Author: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the f you know, you guys know when you have a startup, you kind of everyone does everything. It's kind of whatever's needed. Everyone wears a every hat, you know. But after a couple of years we got into our groove and you know, one of my partners just kind of became over the CIO over all the investments. One kind of came the operations guy. And honestly, I I I gravitated towards fundraising. When you When you're buying large expensive assets, you need a lot of capital. And I like people. And so I was out there establishing relationships with high net worth individuals as well as institutions in order to have the capital that we needed to succeed. So yeah, it took a couple of years, I'd say, for us to kind of find our roles and then to be supportive of each other in those and to, you know, to help each other. But yeah, that's entrepreneurship is an accelerated path of learning. That's why I did it right out of school. And I'm really grateful that I have. It has a lot of no life, you know, is up and straight up and to the right. Everything has ups and downs. And you know, without those downs, the the joy would not be as great when you win as well or when things go great. So yeah, it's all beautiful.
Kelly: was we mentioned in the intro that you ran for governor and
Jeff - Author: Yeah.
Kelly: lost publicly during a pandemic, which, you know, was I guess it was a good thing that you mentioned. Take us to that moment. What did that day actually look like? and how did that make you feel?
Jeff - Author: Yeah, it was a very public defeat. One of the reasons that I ran for governor, you know, as a political outsider, you're always an underdog. And so, you know, I thought that I would be the best governor for our state. I still believe that. I believed in what we were doing. I thought we had a chance to win, which again, we definitely did until the pandemic. Then it became pretty clear there's a fight to safety. Whenever markets are disrupted, you see this. in financial markets all the time. There's a fight to safety. And that happens in politics too. And so when a global pandemic is sweeping the earth, I mean, people are scared. And it's a lot harder to vote for Jeff Birmingham, this like political outsider, than to pick, I was running against a former governor of our state who's run for president before, by the way, John Huntsman Jr. And then I
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm.
Jeff - Author: was running against the current lieutenant governor, Spencer Cox, who ended up winning. Anyways That that's a lot e it's a lot easier to choose one of those guys than this like political upstart. So you can see Kelly and Sean, this little blue couch here in my home office. When I knew it was over, I laid down on that couch around midnight. This is before I had officially lost, but I had spent twelve hours in this office talking to the back of my iPhone. This is before we figured out Zoom. We forget that it took us a couple months to actually figure out Zoom.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah.
Jeff - Author: And I didn't know if I was talking to five people or five hundred people in all these virtual town halls because we were grounded, like we were confined to we couldn't have events. And I realized there's no way that I can win if I can't get out and meet people. And I I laid down at that couch, maybe it was eleven or twelve, and I just wept. You know, I cried because, you know, I believed in the cause. I had put my heart and soul into it. I had raised a couple million dollars from friends who believed in me. I had matched every one of those dollars. So I had spent we'd spent several million dollars on the campaign over the last year and it was over. And I felt like a failure, you know. I mean, I felt like I had let people down. I had felt like the outcome that I had envisioned wasn't what it was gonna be. And that that's how life is, you know, we can't we don't control outcomes. So the less attached we can be to outcomes, I think the more present we can be in moments and the more true we can be to our authenticity in our heart. So It was really hard to be honest with you, but it w like you said, it was really good. It's funny. I actually had the governor come to my class that I mentioned at BYU a year later. He, you know, of course, was in his suit and tie and I was in Jordans and jeans and a t-shirt or something. And and I said, I'm I think I won. You know, like now, now that it's over, you know, who really won? I'm with these five hundred beautiful aspiring students in my casual attire, he comes in stressed with all of his security in his suit and I I said, I th I think I think I really won in the end. But it you know, at that time, again, like I said, I thought I'd be the best governor. So it was a painful defeat. And it was you could say it was a little bit of an ego death. I don't and it led the last book written by a human is really a spiritual book about life.
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm.
Jeff - Author: And about the cosmic mirror of AI, what it's revealing about our humanity. And so it it led to this. It led to the dark night of the soul that I'm kind of talking about, which I think, you know, we all get to go through it some form or fashion. It you know, this midlife kind of what's it all about? Why am I
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah.
Jeff - Author: here? Am I doing any good? What really matters? Blah blah blah blah blah. So it led to all that for me. So it's been a good process, but a a painful one.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. I'm I'm curious 'cause I wanna talk through that just a little bit, 'cause you you know, you've called it your cave period and you you know, you just kinda said on the show already it's it was about a five year stretch, right? So
Jeff - Author: Yeah.
Shawn Sundsvold: what did that time look like for you? What were you doing? What were you not doing? What was what did you do to kinda help rebuild yourself?
Jeff - Author: Sean, I love that question. Great question. I've never been I've been on a over a hundred podcasts in the last year. I've never been asked that question.
Shawn Sundsvold: wow.
Jeff - Author: first of all, it was the summer of twenty twenty, so that was a w so what did we all do? I don't know. I I went back home, which is I grew up in Spokane, Washington. So I took my family to the lake, Quarterlane Lake w in Idaho, right across the border, which I love. That's where I learn to wake board and water ski. And so we just kind of retreated into nature. And that was the first part. then I dove back into the work that had lit me up before Venture Capital and Technology. That led me down some interesting roads. And then I started writing. I started writing a lot. And the truth is you know the book is pretty small. It's easy to read. It's meant to be read in a couple hours. But I started massive because I had written so much. Really, the hardest work was, you know, what you see in the book is probably 20% of what I wrote. So that's the general buckets. I spent time with people I loved. I tried to stay physically fit. I was in nature and writing. I started meditating, which has become a a really critical. Daily practice for me. I try to spend at least 20 minutes and stillness every day. And yeah, that that's kind of what I those are the those are the four or five buckets that I leaned into and that have been very I'm sure I'm leaving some out, but that have been critical and kind of me coming back and coming back to myself, remembering you know, remembering my Dharma, the work that I think I have to do here in this life.
Kelly: Yeah, that's that's really good. so you're you're chairman of your companies now instead of running them from day to day. what
Jeff - Author: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: was the actual moment that you realized your business didn't need you the way you thought you did?
Jeff - Author: That's a great question again. So I think it was post-governor run. I started kind of sensing that and knowing that. My two partners and I hired a CEO for Peak Capital a couple a year or two before I ran for governor. So that was maybe a step towards that. But I think really after the governor run, I'd been gone, let's say I'm gonna use roughly for about a year. You know, I attended critical meetings and or as much as I could, but I wasn't involved day to day for the first time, you know, since I started it fifteen years before. And so I think coming back after COVID, after the governor run, you know, it was apparent that I wasn't needed nay to day to day. And in some forms and fashions with some of the companies I started, maybe I wasn't even, you know, wanted. I'm saying that a little tongue in cheek, but The company had moved on, people had grown up, leaders had grown up, and they wanted to they wanted to make it their own. They wanted to put their stamp on it. And, you know, that was hard for me in some instances, but mainly it was beautiful because I was ready to pass the reins. I was ready to grow up these leaders to help them, you know, do what they wanted to do. And I didn't I didn't need to accomplish any I don't feel like I need to accomplish anything more in business. My track record speaks for itself and I'm at peace with that. So yeah, now I'm kind of the chairman, which means the janitor or the shoulder to cry on or helping make big decisions, you know, like kind of whatever's needed. I I kinda'm kind of a I mean, I'm a servant, like meaning I'm there to help. I'm there to serve. I'm there to help. Whatever someone needs or doesn't need, I try to, you know, be helpful in whatever way I can. Sometimes that's a little bit more of me and sometimes that's a little bit less of me. so yeah.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I I I love that kind of, you know, the idea of the chairman and the person who's there to just kind of support what happens, right? I think that's really important. And as you you know, you grew your business and it gave you the flexibility, I would say, opportunity, right, to invest in other companies. You know, you're investing in the world every day. So and and you've done it with some amazing companies. so thinking about AI right now and all the investments you're making, like what's something about AI that you think people are completed completely missing or worried about for the wrong reason.
Jeff - Author: I think that AI is a cosmic mirror, like I said. What I mean is it's just a reflection of us. So if we're afraid of ourselves, we should be afraid of it. And sometimes we are afraid. Like you just look out into the world and you guys have kids. It can be a scary place. You look at the wars in the world. It's scary. The disruption. The political division. This is a r this is a human problem, not a technology problem. And so if you think of, I'm just trying to make it very simple. If you think of what AI is, it literally collects all of human data available to it, and then how we as individuals and collectively interact with it, and it simply provides a reflection based on pattern recognition. This is a simple explanation. It provides a reflection. And a reflection can be a powerful thing. Because it can show help us see ourselves more clearly, show us where we should invest more and where we need to change, if we look at it like honestly. And so I think AI is a mirror, it's a reflection of us. So as I argue in the book, I think the obstacle becomes the way here. The way to our humanity, the way for our evolution to continue is actually via. the crucible, you could say, of AI, because AI is gonna bring a lot of pain, you know, it already has and it will continue to reveal who we are and to, you know, change job markets and do, you know, who knows what else. And so, I don't think it I think fear, Sean, hardly ever plays a productive role in life. If if you know, a if a tiger jumps
Shawn Sundsvold: Yes.
Jeff - Author: into that beautiful studio right there, y then there's a reason to have fear and you should get the heck out of there. But so I don't think fear is the right approach or outlook with AI. I think it's curiosity. I think it's openness, humility around what it's showing us and the work that we need to do. And that's what the last book written by a human's about. It kind of starts to outline or yeah, it provides a a container for the work that is ahead of us. I think. And you know, that's exciting. It's fun. It's also hard. It's scary. It's it takes courage to face your work. And this is what faces us now. So I'm optimistic about the future. I'm excited. It's gonna be interesting. No one knows. I think it's up to us how it unfolds and plays out. And I wrote the book to be a conversation starter. To I want to hear what people think about it, how they experience it. And I want to start talking about how. we face this unknown future with ease, love, and grace.
Kelly: I love that. I also
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah.
Kelly: love something else you just said about AI, which was curiosity. you know, like we've we talked to a lot of business owners, like I'm sure you do too, and a lot of different people, and there's some there's some apprehension around AI and some concerns, varying degrees, varying reasons. but staying curious, I think, is just a really good word. so on that, like if we're If someone's building a business today, someone's listening, we have a lot of small business leaders that are listening to this podcast, is there one AI related decision you think they can't afford to get wrong in the next two years?
Jeff - Author: yeah, I think there's two. I'll try to be brief and simple. There's two. Number one, don't ignore AI. It is here to stay. So it's incumbent upon business leaders, even small business owners, to figure out if a AI can help them. If you just bury your head in the sand, this goes for individuals and businesses and pretend like it's not gonna happen. That's the number one mistake. It's gonna it's happening. So how could you use it? Number one. Number two, the mistake that you could make is to put the machine ahead of your humanity.
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm.
Jeff - Author: you know, business is about humans, it's about teams. Yeah, you need to be efficient. Yes, you need to get stuff done. Yes, you need to provide a product or service that, of course, people are willing to pay for. How can AI help you do that? But not in a way that either erodes your own humanity. Or causes you to hurt other humans. So those are the two high-level most important things I'd say. Number one, embrace it with curiosity and with with the you know, don't pretend like it's not gonna happen. And then number two, how can it actually increase or help us be more human, not less? We aren't machines. We can never we can't beat the machine at its own game. A machine never sleeps, eats, whatever, you know. so how can it encourage and and help humanity flourish? That's that's the focus.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I I love that statement. How do you help humanity flourish? Because I all of us, right? We all have dreams, we all have ideas, we all have these things we want to accomplish, right? AI doesn't necessarily have that. We have that and we have that as a tool to help us build those dreams we've got. And, you know, for you, I kinda look at your career and I'm like, Man, you you built a company, you ran a statewide race, you've you know, back two hundred startups, right? That's a lot of big dreams. It's a lot of big things to sort of like keep taking swings at, right? you know, for
Jeff - Author: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shawn Sundsvold: for somebody who's got big dreams like that, but they don't know where to start like what's what's a good first move? Where should they start?
Jeff - Author: Again, two ideas. number one, everything starts inside. And our inside is grown via character or small daily habits that add up and make a difference. So it's all about belief in yourself. So what do you need to do or who do you need to be in order to grow confidence within yourself? To to believe it like, let's say in yourself, number one. And that's different for everyone. And there are several different, you know, like for me, that's meditation. It's moving my body. It's having fun. And it's being of service. When I can do those things with people that I love, my, you know, my nervous system is regulated. I believe in myself. I believe in my dreams. So that's the first thing that I would say. The second thing I'd say is we've all taken the risk, let's say, or the biggest risk is to be here, to be embodied, to be alive. So I encourage people to follow their hearts and to follow their you know, their mission, their what they really feel called to do. Now that can take a winding road. Sometimes a lot of times you just have to make ends meet, but I think following the flow of the universe, following your unique genius and gifts, that's a lifelong process to understand that. But I would encourage people to lean into those things no matter what anyone outside of them may say or think. It's not about outside judgment. It's about how we feel about ourselves, kind of on the inside.
Shawn Sundsvold: where should they start? And I I think you answered it very, very well.
Jeff - Author: well, let me say one other. Thank you. Let me say one other thing. All big dreams start small. So you just start on the micro, the daily habits, the little beliefs, the next step, the right next step. In fact, that's what I would have the students do in my class. Most of them were trying to start a business or thinking about being entrepreneurs. And I would say the your assignment for this week is to just take the next step. The what is the next? Most important step, take that and then take that again and then again and again. And those start to add up and make a real difference.
Kelly: Love that. so going back to your book, it has a short chapter on the importance of letting go. why does this matter so much in business as it does personally?
Jeff - Author: Yeah, I think I think awakening, spiritual awakening, which is what the book's about. I think growing a business, I think growing up, adulting or whatever you want to call it, it it's not about it's much more about shedding or letting go than adding anything. Everything that we already need, we already have, it's inside of us. What we're looking for, like I said, is inside of us. And so I think that all of that is it's about letting go. It's about letting go of trauma of pain of mostly of unconditional patterns bad patterns that keep us stuck because entrepreneurship life is about progress and in order to progress and to evolve and to become more you've got to let go you've got to understand or maybe see your unconscious patterns that are keeping you stuck see those clearly and then let go so I think so much of life especially like in mid-age and as you get older is about it's not about adding more, more, more, more. That is our tendency and that's certainly something we can do and most of us do do. It's about shedding. It's about letting go. And it's about so yeah, I I think that's entrepreneurship's all about decision making and knowing what matters and what does not. Spending your time on what matters and spending as little on your of your time on what doesn't matter. But that's easy to say, it's hard to do and it's hard to know exactly like what matters, what doesn't. Well, the way that you can get really clear on what matters, clarity on what matters, is by shedding a lot of stuff that that doesn't really matter.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. And I I think just kind of a you know, an interesting follow up question to this is, you know, for yourself, like w through this process, what's something you've had to actively let go of and what did it cost you to hold on to it for too long?
Jeff - Author: Yeah. Again, I guess I'll say two things. Two things come to mind. Number one, I've had to let go of my idea of success because I'm I made it financially. I don't need to make any more money. I I don't need to do I you know, I don't need to have any more things. And you know, I think we're taught from a pretty young age, especially in the Western United States. I grew up in a very moralistic religion. You know, obviously a very capitalist society. You're kind of, I think, it's just in the air that you breathe that success is in a in financial metrics, awards, having things. That's not what success is, in my opinion. So I've had to let go of like that idea. another thing that I've had to let go of, which is really hard to do, it's easy to talk about, hard to do, just let go of being in control of outcomes. You know, I I really wanted this book to be a New York Times bestseller. It wasn't. It was a number seven USA Today bestseller. So that's pretty good. First time author, number seven in the nation. But I wanted to be New York Times and it didn't happen. I had to let go of that. It didn't really matter. Does it matter? It doesn't matter. obviously we talk talked about my governor run. I had a different vision of of how that would end up or where that would go. So I think the more that we can let go of outcomes in our life. the more free we are to be present and to bring our best to every given moment, which is really the only place where we can make a difference is any or every present moment. And to do that the best we can, we've got to let go of attachment to outcomes and into the future that we don't fully control.
Kelly: Yeah, it's really good. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us. This was a very interesting conversation. What is a good way for people to reach out to you?
Jeff - Author: Yeah, the last book written by a human, Becoming Wise in the Age of AI, is available everywhere. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere you want to get it. So yeah, you can find it. It's also on Audible. I read the audio book. And like I said, Kelly, I I wrote this to be a conversation starter. So people can find me at my website, jeffburningham.com. And I have very mixed feelings about social media, as you could probably understand. having run for governor and anyways all the three reasons but I I trying to go to where people are at. So I do have a presence on most social medias at Jeff Burningham. People can find me there and I'd love to hear how people experience the book, how they feel about it, and would love to continue the conversation around what it means to become wise as humans in the age of highly intelligent machines. It's an interesting subject and I I think it's the challenge for like our generation, you know, for the next decade or so. So it's fun.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah. thank you so much for being a guest on our show. Appreciate it, and we look forward to keeping up with you in the future.
Jeff - Author: Yeah, I hope to stay connected. Nice to meet you, Kelly. Thanks, Sean. Good to see you.
Shawn Sundsvold: Thanks, Jeff.
Jeff - Author: it's my pleasure to be with you, Sean and Kelly. Thanks for having me.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, so let's just kind of catch everybody up to you and where you are. For people who are just meeting you, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Jeff - Author: Well, I I loved your intro. Thanks, Sean. I think you did a great job. You said probably too much. I wanted to ask you guys, have you guys been through the dark night of the soul yet? This kind of cave period that I mentioned. Is this sounding reminiscent to you? I don't know. Well, good.
Kelly: Definitely is. I wanna pick up your book. Yes.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yes.
Jeff - Author: Yeah. I hope you will pick it up. I hope you'll check it out. The book is available on Audible and everywhere. Yeah, I'm a dad of four. I'm actually a grandpa, to one and and my daughter-in-law is pregnant with twins. So we'll be three here in a couple months. I'm married to my what I feel like is just my soulmate Sally. I often think that so much of the busyness, so much of the noise, everything could just fade away. And I think what remains, at least for me and for most humans, would be the love story. Whatever that you're unique love story is, you know, and that's not just with a partner, although that might be primary, but just the love that we share. So yeah, that's my background. But I I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've built lots of large companies, kind of lost my mind and ran for governor in 2020. I I started in 2019. Of course had no idea the pandemic was coming. If I did, I wouldn't have run. that's really what I was an underdog in the race because I'm a non-politician and I was running against two very well-known politicians. But what ultimately caused me to lose was the pandemic. There was just no way that a political outsider like myself was going to win in that environment. And then yeah, that thrust me back into venture capital and and investments and has led to this interesting winding road where I've been exploring. AI and humanity and the impact that AI is gonna have on humanity. And yeah, the one sentence thesis of the last book written by a human is that as our machines become more and more intelligent, we as humans have to become more wise. So there's a little bit more about me. I don't know.
Kelly: Yeah, it's really helpful. so let's kind of go back a little bit. You sold your first tech company to a NASDAQ listed company at just twenty-six or twenty-seven.
Jeff - Author: Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly: what did that moment feel like? Like did it feel like arrival
Jeff - Author: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: or like just a start to something bigger? Obviously it's been a little bit since you've had that sale.
Jeff - Author: Yeah, great question. And it was a month before I turned twenty-seven. So I was kind of twenty-six and twenty-seven or two months bef when I sold the first company. It felt like a rival for a minute. Isn't that what most th like when we have a goal and we have a little mountain, let's say that we're climbing up, it could feel good at the top for a second. But as I say in the in my book, There's nothing at the top of our mountains of accomplishment but a cold howling wind is what I said, what I wrote. Just kind of void and more more void on top of that. The point is outward accomplishment is not why we're here. You know, it's taken me decades to like embody that, to feel that, and to know that. But it's not about selling a company. So yeah, it felt cool to do that at age twenty six and twenty-seven. It's pretty unique. I was really young. And, you know, there was a mono, you know, there was a reward for that sale that was good for, you know, my age. It wasn't like I could retire and be done, but it was a good exit. So yeah, it felt good for a moment. But I think that the answers that we're all looking for are actually inside of us. They're not outside of us. So though even though we've been trained to look outside for validation, for, you know, acquiring other things, for things. It's not out there that we're ever gonna find peace. It's only in here. So I would say that it was the start, Kelly, of like maybe a journey more inside myself and less kind of outside myself.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective on that. And it you know, just kind of looking through your career, it it feels like it took a little bit to kind of get to that point of that sort of looking things through because, you know, you went from selling the business, you built another, you know, real estate business that invested in a number of different properties, you've you know, you've kind of been the startup guy and started a lot of different things. Is that a do you feel like that's a strength for you and like an ability that you just kinda are able to walk in and take things and pick them up and run?
Jeff - Author: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that I've taught a course as an adjunct professor at BYU that where I graduated from college for three or four years after the governor race, the kind of the years in between launching the book and running for governor. And it was a course on entrepreneurship and I'd have a thousand kids a year come through come to my class. And it was really a course about life. I called it the business of life. but yeah, that that's who I am. I'm a startup guy. I like the beginning. I like when the risk is taken out of the system or the company, I kind of lose interest. So
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm.
Jeff - Author: as soon as Peak Capital, the real estate firm that we created, had about a half a billion dollars in assets, about 500 million in assets, it was obvious that we were gonna be successful, more maybe successful than we ever even thought possible. And I honestly kind of started to lose interest because Yeah, it just wasn't exciting. Like it wasn't dynamic enough. And so that's when I launched a venture fund, by the way, is and that and that's why I did, because I like the startup. And you know, I I I don't think that there's really a demographic for entrepreneurship. I'm often asked, like, what is the key to to, you know, like who do you back? Young, old, you know, you know, whatever background you have. But I think that Entrepreneurs generally have a bias towards action. They rarely wait for permission. They just see a problem in the world and they go try to solve it. And so, and I think that's beautiful most of the time. Obviously, it could be taken too far, but I think that's beautiful. And I love to back entrepreneurs. I still am making an investment or two a month in startup entrepreneurs that that are have a bias towards action and are tackling big, exciting problems in. And that's definitely right down. Like that's my skill set. That's who I am. Kind of feeling a vision, seeing it. And then backing the right teams. It's all about the team. In a startup, in life, in entrepreneurship, it's actually about who you're doing it with. That's what it's really about. So really I'm I'm picking people that I want to be on a journey or ride with and that I believe in.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, like I think that's that's entrepreneurship is being able to to bring the people along that you want or set up the life that you want. there's a lot of flexibility in that and not working for the man. so peak capital, so it started during the Great Recession and almost didn't make it. what's the closest you ever came to actually losing it?
Jeff - Author: Yeah. It's a good question. Yeah, no,
Kelly: Hard question, right?
Jeff - Author: it's a no, it's a great question. I mean, I started it with two partners, two of my best friends. And still to this day. We started with nothing. We've now built, you know, a large company. And we're still friends. I'm really proud of that. I think the scariest moments were when we didn't agree, you know, when not everything and every partnership has ups and downs. I think that's what would have been most scary to me. It did get financially scary. Actually, not really for me, Kelly, because I had sold my technology company. My two partners, Jeff and Jamie, they had gone to Ivy League and get Ivy League MBAs, one at Dartmouth, one at Wharton. And and so they had, you know, business school debt. They hadn't had an exit like I had. And so one of them, you know, and these were sacrifices. This is humbling. You know, one of them moved in with their in-laws because we just it was hard. We didn't there was not revenue in the business for the first, I don't know, twelve to twenty-four months. So it
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm.
Jeff - Author: was a long road. The other one started receiving groceries on their doorstep, like over Christmas specifically. I remember. Like I mean, it was humbling. It was hard and it was beautiful. Sometimes it's good. We all need help sometimes and it's hard to accept that help at times. And it was a good kind of hard startup experience. We didn't we weren't sure if we were gonna make it. But I I I because I had had an exit, you know, I I wasn't I I it's interesting. I always believed we were gonna make it. I learned later that one or both of my partners, they started kind of looking around for like, if this doesn't work out, what am I gonna do? I never had I had the blinders on. I just thought it was gonna work. I had more financial runway too, maybe. But anyways, it's been a beautiful journey. I think the scariest times are always when you're working out interpersonal or strategy issue that you don't agree with. I'm sure you guys know nothing about that as business partners and parents and whatever all the other beautiful things you guys are. you know, like that's always can be hard. And so yeah, there It was it was lean and mean for the first couple years of Peak Capital and yeah, we almost didn't make it, but we did. And when we turned it around, we turned it around quite significantly. It's been
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah.
Jeff - Author: a fun ride.
Shawn Sundsvold: And it I I love the story too of like, you know, those I I think f every entrepreneur feels it right in those first sometimes year, two year, five years, you know, growing a business especially from nothing, right? It's it's a lot of work, it's a lot of time, it's a lot of building the systems And if nobody's ever done that before, you know, it can be really challenging and and testing, not only from a just a mental perspective, but from a a friendship perspective as you're sort of trying to figure out how how do we work together, right?
Jeff - Author: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the f you know, you guys know when you have a startup, you kind of everyone does everything. It's kind of whatever's needed. Everyone wears a every hat, you know. But after a couple of years we got into our groove and you know, one of my partners just kind of became over the CIO over all the investments. One kind of came the operations guy. And honestly, I I I gravitated towards fundraising. When you When you're buying large expensive assets, you need a lot of capital. And I like people. And so I was out there establishing relationships with high net worth individuals as well as institutions in order to have the capital that we needed to succeed. So yeah, it took a couple of years, I'd say, for us to kind of find our roles and then to be supportive of each other in those and to, you know, to help each other. But yeah, that's entrepreneurship is an accelerated path of learning. That's why I did it right out of school. And I'm really grateful that I have. It has a lot of no life, you know, is up and straight up and to the right. Everything has ups and downs. And you know, without those downs, the the joy would not be as great when you win as well or when things go great. So yeah, it's all beautiful.
Kelly: was we mentioned in the intro that you ran for governor and
Jeff - Author: Yeah.
Kelly: lost publicly during a pandemic, which, you know, was I guess it was a good thing that you mentioned. Take us to that moment. What did that day actually look like? and how did that make you feel?
Jeff - Author: Yeah, it was a very public defeat. One of the reasons that I ran for governor, you know, as a political outsider, you're always an underdog. And so, you know, I thought that I would be the best governor for our state. I still believe that. I believed in what we were doing. I thought we had a chance to win, which again, we definitely did until the pandemic. Then it became pretty clear there's a fight to safety. Whenever markets are disrupted, you see this. in financial markets all the time. There's a fight to safety. And that happens in politics too. And so when a global pandemic is sweeping the earth, I mean, people are scared. And it's a lot harder to vote for Jeff Birmingham, this like political outsider, than to pick, I was running against a former governor of our state who's run for president before, by the way, John Huntsman Jr. And then I
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm.
Jeff - Author: was running against the current lieutenant governor, Spencer Cox, who ended up winning. Anyways That that's a lot e it's a lot easier to choose one of those guys than this like political upstart. So you can see Kelly and Sean, this little blue couch here in my home office. When I knew it was over, I laid down on that couch around midnight. This is before I had officially lost, but I had spent twelve hours in this office talking to the back of my iPhone. This is before we figured out Zoom. We forget that it took us a couple months to actually figure out Zoom.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah.
Jeff - Author: And I didn't know if I was talking to five people or five hundred people in all these virtual town halls because we were grounded, like we were confined to we couldn't have events. And I realized there's no way that I can win if I can't get out and meet people. And I I laid down at that couch, maybe it was eleven or twelve, and I just wept. You know, I cried because, you know, I believed in the cause. I had put my heart and soul into it. I had raised a couple million dollars from friends who believed in me. I had matched every one of those dollars. So I had spent we'd spent several million dollars on the campaign over the last year and it was over. And I felt like a failure, you know. I mean, I felt like I had let people down. I had felt like the outcome that I had envisioned wasn't what it was gonna be. And that that's how life is, you know, we can't we don't control outcomes. So the less attached we can be to outcomes, I think the more present we can be in moments and the more true we can be to our authenticity in our heart. So It was really hard to be honest with you, but it w like you said, it was really good. It's funny. I actually had the governor come to my class that I mentioned at BYU a year later. He, you know, of course, was in his suit and tie and I was in Jordans and jeans and a t-shirt or something. And and I said, I'm I think I won. You know, like now, now that it's over, you know, who really won? I'm with these five hundred beautiful aspiring students in my casual attire, he comes in stressed with all of his security in his suit and I I said, I th I think I think I really won in the end. But it you know, at that time, again, like I said, I thought I'd be the best governor. So it was a painful defeat. And it was you could say it was a little bit of an ego death. I don't and it led the last book written by a human is really a spiritual book about life.
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm.
Jeff - Author: And about the cosmic mirror of AI, what it's revealing about our humanity. And so it it led to this. It led to the dark night of the soul that I'm kind of talking about, which I think, you know, we all get to go through it some form or fashion. It you know, this midlife kind of what's it all about? Why am I
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah.
Jeff - Author: here? Am I doing any good? What really matters? Blah blah blah blah blah. So it led to all that for me. So it's been a good process, but a a painful one.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. I'm I'm curious 'cause I wanna talk through that just a little bit, 'cause you you know, you've called it your cave period and you you know, you just kinda said on the show already it's it was about a five year stretch, right? So
Jeff - Author: Yeah.
Shawn Sundsvold: what did that time look like for you? What were you doing? What were you not doing? What was what did you do to kinda help rebuild yourself?
Jeff - Author: Sean, I love that question. Great question. I've never been I've been on a over a hundred podcasts in the last year. I've never been asked that question.
Shawn Sundsvold: wow.
Jeff - Author: first of all, it was the summer of twenty twenty, so that was a w so what did we all do? I don't know. I I went back home, which is I grew up in Spokane, Washington. So I took my family to the lake, Quarterlane Lake w in Idaho, right across the border, which I love. That's where I learn to wake board and water ski. And so we just kind of retreated into nature. And that was the first part. then I dove back into the work that had lit me up before Venture Capital and Technology. That led me down some interesting roads. And then I started writing. I started writing a lot. And the truth is you know the book is pretty small. It's easy to read. It's meant to be read in a couple hours. But I started massive because I had written so much. Really, the hardest work was, you know, what you see in the book is probably 20% of what I wrote. So that's the general buckets. I spent time with people I loved. I tried to stay physically fit. I was in nature and writing. I started meditating, which has become a a really critical. Daily practice for me. I try to spend at least 20 minutes and stillness every day. And yeah, that that's kind of what I those are the those are the four or five buckets that I leaned into and that have been very I'm sure I'm leaving some out, but that have been critical and kind of me coming back and coming back to myself, remembering you know, remembering my Dharma, the work that I think I have to do here in this life.
Kelly: Yeah, that's that's really good. so you're you're chairman of your companies now instead of running them from day to day. what
Jeff - Author: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: was the actual moment that you realized your business didn't need you the way you thought you did?
Jeff - Author: That's a great question again. So I think it was post-governor run. I started kind of sensing that and knowing that. My two partners and I hired a CEO for Peak Capital a couple a year or two before I ran for governor. So that was maybe a step towards that. But I think really after the governor run, I'd been gone, let's say I'm gonna use roughly for about a year. You know, I attended critical meetings and or as much as I could, but I wasn't involved day to day for the first time, you know, since I started it fifteen years before. And so I think coming back after COVID, after the governor run, you know, it was apparent that I wasn't needed nay to day to day. And in some forms and fashions with some of the companies I started, maybe I wasn't even, you know, wanted. I'm saying that a little tongue in cheek, but The company had moved on, people had grown up, leaders had grown up, and they wanted to they wanted to make it their own. They wanted to put their stamp on it. And, you know, that was hard for me in some instances, but mainly it was beautiful because I was ready to pass the reins. I was ready to grow up these leaders to help them, you know, do what they wanted to do. And I didn't I didn't need to accomplish any I don't feel like I need to accomplish anything more in business. My track record speaks for itself and I'm at peace with that. So yeah, now I'm kind of the chairman, which means the janitor or the shoulder to cry on or helping make big decisions, you know, like kind of whatever's needed. I I kinda'm kind of a I mean, I'm a servant, like meaning I'm there to help. I'm there to serve. I'm there to help. Whatever someone needs or doesn't need, I try to, you know, be helpful in whatever way I can. Sometimes that's a little bit more of me and sometimes that's a little bit less of me. so yeah.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I I I love that kind of, you know, the idea of the chairman and the person who's there to just kind of support what happens, right? I think that's really important. And as you you know, you grew your business and it gave you the flexibility, I would say, opportunity, right, to invest in other companies. You know, you're investing in the world every day. So and and you've done it with some amazing companies. so thinking about AI right now and all the investments you're making, like what's something about AI that you think people are completed completely missing or worried about for the wrong reason.
Jeff - Author: I think that AI is a cosmic mirror, like I said. What I mean is it's just a reflection of us. So if we're afraid of ourselves, we should be afraid of it. And sometimes we are afraid. Like you just look out into the world and you guys have kids. It can be a scary place. You look at the wars in the world. It's scary. The disruption. The political division. This is a r this is a human problem, not a technology problem. And so if you think of, I'm just trying to make it very simple. If you think of what AI is, it literally collects all of human data available to it, and then how we as individuals and collectively interact with it, and it simply provides a reflection based on pattern recognition. This is a simple explanation. It provides a reflection. And a reflection can be a powerful thing. Because it can show help us see ourselves more clearly, show us where we should invest more and where we need to change, if we look at it like honestly. And so I think AI is a mirror, it's a reflection of us. So as I argue in the book, I think the obstacle becomes the way here. The way to our humanity, the way for our evolution to continue is actually via. the crucible, you could say, of AI, because AI is gonna bring a lot of pain, you know, it already has and it will continue to reveal who we are and to, you know, change job markets and do, you know, who knows what else. And so, I don't think it I think fear, Sean, hardly ever plays a productive role in life. If if you know, a if a tiger jumps
Shawn Sundsvold: Yes.
Jeff - Author: into that beautiful studio right there, y then there's a reason to have fear and you should get the heck out of there. But so I don't think fear is the right approach or outlook with AI. I think it's curiosity. I think it's openness, humility around what it's showing us and the work that we need to do. And that's what the last book written by a human's about. It kind of starts to outline or yeah, it provides a a container for the work that is ahead of us. I think. And you know, that's exciting. It's fun. It's also hard. It's scary. It's it takes courage to face your work. And this is what faces us now. So I'm optimistic about the future. I'm excited. It's gonna be interesting. No one knows. I think it's up to us how it unfolds and plays out. And I wrote the book to be a conversation starter. To I want to hear what people think about it, how they experience it. And I want to start talking about how. we face this unknown future with ease, love, and grace.
Kelly: I love that. I also
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah.
Kelly: love something else you just said about AI, which was curiosity. you know, like we've we talked to a lot of business owners, like I'm sure you do too, and a lot of different people, and there's some there's some apprehension around AI and some concerns, varying degrees, varying reasons. but staying curious, I think, is just a really good word. so on that, like if we're If someone's building a business today, someone's listening, we have a lot of small business leaders that are listening to this podcast, is there one AI related decision you think they can't afford to get wrong in the next two years?
Jeff - Author: yeah, I think there's two. I'll try to be brief and simple. There's two. Number one, don't ignore AI. It is here to stay. So it's incumbent upon business leaders, even small business owners, to figure out if a AI can help them. If you just bury your head in the sand, this goes for individuals and businesses and pretend like it's not gonna happen. That's the number one mistake. It's gonna it's happening. So how could you use it? Number one. Number two, the mistake that you could make is to put the machine ahead of your humanity.
Shawn Sundsvold: Mm.
Jeff - Author: you know, business is about humans, it's about teams. Yeah, you need to be efficient. Yes, you need to get stuff done. Yes, you need to provide a product or service that, of course, people are willing to pay for. How can AI help you do that? But not in a way that either erodes your own humanity. Or causes you to hurt other humans. So those are the two high-level most important things I'd say. Number one, embrace it with curiosity and with with the you know, don't pretend like it's not gonna happen. And then number two, how can it actually increase or help us be more human, not less? We aren't machines. We can never we can't beat the machine at its own game. A machine never sleeps, eats, whatever, you know. so how can it encourage and and help humanity flourish? That's that's the focus.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I I love that statement. How do you help humanity flourish? Because I all of us, right? We all have dreams, we all have ideas, we all have these things we want to accomplish, right? AI doesn't necessarily have that. We have that and we have that as a tool to help us build those dreams we've got. And, you know, for you, I kinda look at your career and I'm like, Man, you you built a company, you ran a statewide race, you've you know, back two hundred startups, right? That's a lot of big dreams. It's a lot of big things to sort of like keep taking swings at, right? you know, for
Jeff - Author: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shawn Sundsvold: for somebody who's got big dreams like that, but they don't know where to start like what's what's a good first move? Where should they start?
Jeff - Author: Again, two ideas. number one, everything starts inside. And our inside is grown via character or small daily habits that add up and make a difference. So it's all about belief in yourself. So what do you need to do or who do you need to be in order to grow confidence within yourself? To to believe it like, let's say in yourself, number one. And that's different for everyone. And there are several different, you know, like for me, that's meditation. It's moving my body. It's having fun. And it's being of service. When I can do those things with people that I love, my, you know, my nervous system is regulated. I believe in myself. I believe in my dreams. So that's the first thing that I would say. The second thing I'd say is we've all taken the risk, let's say, or the biggest risk is to be here, to be embodied, to be alive. So I encourage people to follow their hearts and to follow their you know, their mission, their what they really feel called to do. Now that can take a winding road. Sometimes a lot of times you just have to make ends meet, but I think following the flow of the universe, following your unique genius and gifts, that's a lifelong process to understand that. But I would encourage people to lean into those things no matter what anyone outside of them may say or think. It's not about outside judgment. It's about how we feel about ourselves, kind of on the inside.
Shawn Sundsvold: where should they start? And I I think you answered it very, very well.
Jeff - Author: well, let me say one other. Thank you. Let me say one other thing. All big dreams start small. So you just start on the micro, the daily habits, the little beliefs, the next step, the right next step. In fact, that's what I would have the students do in my class. Most of them were trying to start a business or thinking about being entrepreneurs. And I would say the your assignment for this week is to just take the next step. The what is the next? Most important step, take that and then take that again and then again and again. And those start to add up and make a real difference.
Kelly: Love that. so going back to your book, it has a short chapter on the importance of letting go. why does this matter so much in business as it does personally?
Jeff - Author: Yeah, I think I think awakening, spiritual awakening, which is what the book's about. I think growing a business, I think growing up, adulting or whatever you want to call it, it it's not about it's much more about shedding or letting go than adding anything. Everything that we already need, we already have, it's inside of us. What we're looking for, like I said, is inside of us. And so I think that all of that is it's about letting go. It's about letting go of trauma of pain of mostly of unconditional patterns bad patterns that keep us stuck because entrepreneurship life is about progress and in order to progress and to evolve and to become more you've got to let go you've got to understand or maybe see your unconscious patterns that are keeping you stuck see those clearly and then let go so I think so much of life especially like in mid-age and as you get older is about it's not about adding more, more, more, more. That is our tendency and that's certainly something we can do and most of us do do. It's about shedding. It's about letting go. And it's about so yeah, I I think that's entrepreneurship's all about decision making and knowing what matters and what does not. Spending your time on what matters and spending as little on your of your time on what doesn't matter. But that's easy to say, it's hard to do and it's hard to know exactly like what matters, what doesn't. Well, the way that you can get really clear on what matters, clarity on what matters, is by shedding a lot of stuff that that doesn't really matter.
Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. And I I think just kind of a you know, an interesting follow up question to this is, you know, for yourself, like w through this process, what's something you've had to actively let go of and what did it cost you to hold on to it for too long?
Jeff - Author: Yeah. Again, I guess I'll say two things. Two things come to mind. Number one, I've had to let go of my idea of success because I'm I made it financially. I don't need to make any more money. I I don't need to do I you know, I don't need to have any more things. And you know, I think we're taught from a pretty young age, especially in the Western United States. I grew up in a very moralistic religion. You know, obviously a very capitalist society. You're kind of, I think, it's just in the air that you breathe that success is in a in financial metrics, awards, having things. That's not what success is, in my opinion. So I've had to let go of like that idea. another thing that I've had to let go of, which is really hard to do, it's easy to talk about, hard to do, just let go of being in control of outcomes. You know, I I really wanted this book to be a New York Times bestseller. It wasn't. It was a number seven USA Today bestseller. So that's pretty good. First time author, number seven in the nation. But I wanted to be New York Times and it didn't happen. I had to let go of that. It didn't really matter. Does it matter? It doesn't matter. obviously we talk talked about my governor run. I had a different vision of of how that would end up or where that would go. So I think the more that we can let go of outcomes in our life. the more free we are to be present and to bring our best to every given moment, which is really the only place where we can make a difference is any or every present moment. And to do that the best we can, we've got to let go of attachment to outcomes and into the future that we don't fully control.
Kelly: Yeah, it's really good. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us. This was a very interesting conversation. What is a good way for people to reach out to you?
Jeff - Author: Yeah, the last book written by a human, Becoming Wise in the Age of AI, is available everywhere. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere you want to get it. So yeah, you can find it. It's also on Audible. I read the audio book. And like I said, Kelly, I I wrote this to be a conversation starter. So people can find me at my website, jeffburningham.com. And I have very mixed feelings about social media, as you could probably understand. having run for governor and anyways all the three reasons but I I trying to go to where people are at. So I do have a presence on most social medias at Jeff Burningham. People can find me there and I'd love to hear how people experience the book, how they feel about it, and would love to continue the conversation around what it means to become wise as humans in the age of highly intelligent machines. It's an interesting subject and I I think it's the challenge for like our generation, you know, for the next decade or so. So it's fun.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah. thank you so much for being a guest on our show. Appreciate it, and we look forward to keeping up with you in the future.
Jeff - Author: Yeah, I hope to stay connected. Nice to meet you, Kelly. Thanks, Sean. Good to see you.
Shawn Sundsvold: Thanks, Jeff.
