Reforming Education with Robert Pondiscio

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Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.

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This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.

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Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.

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I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.

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And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.

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A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.

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Only stuff that works.

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Joining us today is Robert Panio.

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Robert is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a veteran educator and acclaimed author of How the Other Half Learns Equality, excellence, and the Battle Over School Choice.

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Before becoming a leading thinker in education reform, Robert spent years in the classroom himself bringing firsthand insight to the challenges teachers face and the realities students live.

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With a background in journalism and a passion for educational equity, Robert offers a unique perspective, one that challenges assumptions and sparks meaningful dialogue.

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Today we'll explore his views on curriculum school choice.

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And the role of civic education and what it really means to serve students in America today.

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Whether you're an educator, policymaker, or just passionate about the future of our schools, this is a conversation you won't want to miss.

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Good morning, Robert.

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I am so pleased to have you as a guest today on Better Teaching Only stuff that works.

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Thank you for coming on.

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Robert Pondisicio: Thanks, Jean.

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Thanks for having me.

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Looking forward to it.

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Gene Tavernetti: One of the reasons that I've got had so much interest in what you had to say is where you started in education, and that is teaching at a school in Brooklyn.

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Robert Pondisicio: The Bronx actually,

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Gene Tavernetti: The Bronx.

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Okay.

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In

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Robert Pondisicio: small difference from the vantage point of Fresno.

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Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

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In California there's hardly anything exists other than California.

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So you taught there and I'm very curious about your experiences in that environment because my belief is that if we can take care of what happens in the toughest schools and districts, the rest will be a lot easier.

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I think the answers.

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What do you think?

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You with me on that?

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Or?

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Robert Pondisicio: No I think that's.

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Oh, okay.

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Sure.

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My, my brief backstory is I had a whole other life in in the media world.

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I was, I worked for Time Magazine for many years and then business week I started my career in radio news when I was when I took a semester off from college.

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Never quite found my way back.

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But 20 years into my career at age 39 as I like to tell the story, I was seduced by an ad on the New York City subway system for a program called the New York City Teaching Fellows, which was for, mid-career.

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Career switchers to become teachers in hard to staff New York City public schools.

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I sometimes joke that my teaching career was what I call a mid-career impulse purchase.

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It was, I was not one of those.

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People who, at age seven or eight line stuffed animals up in my bed and pretended I was their teacher.

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And if I'm being really candid, I was not much of a student myself.

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I was a b student on my best days.

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The idea of my going to teach.

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In the New York City public school system, in a place like the South Bronx, as they say, would not have been on my Bingo card.

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A and it was intended, if I'm being candid, to be a two year mid-career kind of, public service dt, at which point I'd go back, I assume, and, go back to the news business two years turned into five in the classroom, never quite left.

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Educ educate, never left education after that.

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Got very interested in exactly what you suggest Jean, like how do we.

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Do right by the kids who are least likely to be served well by our public school system.

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And that, led into to any number of avenues that, that we can discuss.

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But having said that, I'm struck by the comment you just made if we could solve that problem, then we can solve all the other ones.

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I, I think I might have given you a different answer 20 years ago than I'm going to give you today, which is, on the one hand, there's a surface.

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Plausibility to that.

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Sure if you can, reach and teach the hardest cases then the rest is easy.

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But I think there's a fruitful vein of ore to, to mine in talking about how that idea may have led us astray.

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In other words, it's not that we have figured out, obviously how to, close the achievement gap and reach the toughest to serve students.

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A case could be made that in pursuit of that very good goal we have I don't wanna say undermined, that's too strong of a word, taken our eye off the ball about the rest of the kids.

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In other words, the fact that I, and maybe you and many others have dedicated our work, our professional lives to underserved kids, does not mean that we do not as a country have an obligation to the rest of the kids.

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So there's a there's a good discussion to be had about how those well-intended practices and policies may not have served 55 million as it were K 12 students.

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At large.

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Does

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Gene Tavernetti: And I think that Yes.

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Yes.

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And and as we mine this vein, and I think that's one of the things that most of the schools that I've worked with as a consultant over the last 20 years have been struggling schools, underperforming schools poor communities, et cetera.

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And, didn't really worry about the others, the other kids

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Robert Pondisicio: Oh, they'll be fine.

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Don't worry.

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They'll be

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Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

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And then of course, like many things my my abuse changed when somebody in my family, had a niece who had kids were very exceptional.

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And they're trying to find places for them, to go to school.

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And, and I understand that not every kid, the public school down the street is the place for your kid.

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Robert Pondisicio: Yeah.

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Gene Tavernetti: And we need to make that place as good as we can for as many as we can.

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Robert Pondisicio: But that's well said.

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No I think that's right.

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And, sorry, go

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Gene Tavernetti: go ahead.

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No.

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Robert Pondisicio: I was gonna say, that's exactly right and, could not have told you when I became a public school teacher what a charter school was.

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I had no inkling about, school choice.

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Milton Friedman was not a name I knew.

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I consider myself to be a fairly staunch choice guy these days, but that said I, I don't view that as a panacea either.

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Because, the public schools are not gonna go away, and I don't think it's a sufficient theory of change to just say, oh the free market and choice will create.

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The rising tide that lifts all boats.

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It will be better than what we have now in all likelihood.

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But I do think there's a certain, blitheness that some choice advocates promote a about that.

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But the, where I thought you were going with what you just said but you went in a slightly different direction.

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It's not merely the gifted talent, the exceptional kids.

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It is the competent kid to coin a phrase.

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In underperforming schools that I also worry about.

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I wrote a book about Success Academy some years ago, which is this, high performing network.

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Extraordinarily high performing network of charter schools in New York City.

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And as I like to say, the.

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The central, to my mind, the most important character in the book is not a central character, but she haunts it like a ghost.

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It's this young lady named Tiffany, and I describe her both the beginning and the end of the book, and I describe something that I call the Tiffany test.

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Just to to retell the story.

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In my second year at PS 2 77, which, for the benefit of our listeners, it is, was still, is the, literally the lowest performing school in New York City's poorest performing school district and poorest congressional district at the time.

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So I had this young lady my second year teaching, her name was Tiffany.

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That was her actual name.

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And by the debased standards of standardized tests at the time is the early aughts, she was what we called a double three.

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Meaning she got a three on grade level.

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Again, debased standards punitively on grade level in both math and ELA.

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And she was also, I'm bearing the lead here a little bit, just an unusually diligent, dedicated rules following kid.

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We all know this kid, we've all, we've taught in these kind of settings, we've all had this kid, who the building could fall down and she'd be scribbling away, at her homework.

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That kind of kid.

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And the way I tell the story in the book, I describe her earnestly as the most important figure, influential figure in my career.

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Perhaps somewhat by accident.

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One day I described to my special ed supervisor, I said, Hey, I've got Tiffany and I'm not challenging.

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I'm not doing anything for her.

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What should I do?

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And she, she said something that stopped me, my tracks and changed my, my, my career.

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She said, quote, she's not your problem.

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And what she meant by that is, um.

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You've got classrooms that are filled, your classroom panis is filled with kids who are below grade level and way below grade level.

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You've got behavior problems, at the wazoo.

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Why are you worried about Tiffany?

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She's delivering the results that you need.

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She's a double three.

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She's on grade level.

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And when I say it changed the trajectory of my career because to be blunt, who the hell says that to me about my kid?

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If we are well off, who said, how dare a school or, view our 10-year-old who's, merely on grade level as a finished product who we don't need to concern ourselves with.

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So when I say she haunts the, my book like a ghost, when I wrote this book about Success Academy, more than a decade later.

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Every kid that I saw at Success Academy was Tiffany.

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Not literally obviously, but that kind of kid.

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The rules follower, the parent, deeply invested in education, ambitious just buying what we were selling, so to speak.

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So those are the kids.

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Even though they may not be the majority of kids that we're concerned about, if you're really committed to equity in its best sense, then, what's best for the cause of equity?

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Is it to regard a kid like Tiffany as a finished product because she's, again, delivering the results that the system says we need to deliver.

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But what could she have been?

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If she had gone to my daughter's elite private school to a high performing public school, if her mother had the wherewithal to move to, the leafy suburbs, where she would've been much more a culture keeper than an outlier.

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So when I say she haunted like a ghost, that's what I mean, like we've gotta solve that problem too.

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How dare we say to, to any diligent invested kid?

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Oh, I'm not worried about you.

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Gene Tavernetti: So let's go back to the Bronx and now that you've had Tiffany haunt you all these years, what kind of changes would you make to that school?

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What suggestions would you make to them to get out of this mess?

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Robert Pondisicio: Okay.

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There, those are two different questions.

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One, what would I suggest for Tiffany and what would I suggest for the school?

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My suggestion for Tiffany is school choice.

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How dare we keep her in that school?

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Because we have bigger problems to solve, that, that's step one step or the other part.

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What do you do about, struggling public schools?

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My answer is not gonna be terribly original or surprising.

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I think it's curriculum.

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I became a slavish devotee of the work of Don Hirsch, Edie Hirsch, Jr. In core knowledge at pS 2 77 because, and again, this is a story I told a thousand times.

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His work was the one body of work that described what I saw in my classroom every day.

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Kids who could decode but struggled with comprehension and we were, by the way, Lucy Calkins, teacher's college classroom.

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So everybody's familiar with, with Lucy Calkins now courtesy of Emily Hanford and her fantastic podcasts, hard words and sold a story.

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But it's funny when those podcasts came out.

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I heard from grad students that I'd had 20 years ago saying, oh my God, did you hear this?

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This is the stuff you were talking about in ed school.

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Yeah, it's about time.

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That's that somebody's getting, giving attention.

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So that would be my prescription is look, there's a reason there's.

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Kids are decoding and it's more complicated than that I grant you.

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But there's a reason that kids are falling behind in reading and it has nothing to do with the stuff that the Lucy Calkins of the world talk about.

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Student engagement and curriculum that looks like you and on.

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If Ed Hirsch had been in my classroom, he would've said no.

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It's background knowledge.

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No, it's vocabulary.

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Look, there are things that, that literate speakers and writers assume their audiences know, and that if they don't know it then the comprehension falls apart and he's exactly right and she's exactly wrong.

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Gene Tavernetti: I think you're the leading, I think I'm gonna know part of your answer to this then my question is, because I get this a lot parents will ask me what's a good school?

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Robert Pondisicio: Yeah.

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Gene Tavernetti: I have no idea what even they're asking.

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So what do you think, because we want to create good schools and schools of choice, so what, how would you define a good school?

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Robert Pondisicio: Yeah.

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Oh boy.

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How much time do we have?

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'cause this is not an easy one.

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I

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Gene Tavernetti: Robert?

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I didn't invite you here for easy ones.

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I

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Robert Pondisicio: Okay.

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I'm a lot.

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No, it's something else I say all the time, like every good conversation about education either quickly gets to it's complicated or it's not a very good conversation.

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And this is one of the most complicated.

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I'm not a technocrat I am not eager to be prescriptive.

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And despite the fact that I've obviously have very, well-defined beliefs about good, better, and best in, in terms of things, school culture and curriculum.

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But I have no desire to impose my, my, my priors on you or anybody else.

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So the answer of what is a good school is it's complicated and it depends.

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And there, there are things that I do not care for.

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That I, the last thing I would wanna do is ban them.

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And there's things that I love and the last thing I would wanna do is impose them on teachers in schools and parents who don't want them.

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I, man how do I even enter into this?

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Um, there's, there's I don't think that I, look, I think my ed reform credentials are in pretty good order, right?

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I started teaching in 2002 when, this was this moral crusade.

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So I'm, I'm not anti-testing, for example.

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But I don't think that testing is a sufficient lens into what is or is not a good school.

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I mean that, that said, I'm not sure you can have a good school with bad test scores.

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But I don't necessarily care for the effects of testing on, on, on school culture or whatnot.

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I guess to, because I'm challenging myself to give you a definitive answer, my answer to what is a good school is probably an ecosystem that would allow all of us to have.

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The range of choices and options and discernment that well off parents have.

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My daughter went to a pair of, frankly, elite private schools in New York City.

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Not because I frankly valorized or valued that form of education, but as I like to point out, I was a public school kid.

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My wife was a private school girl, and private school was the price of peace in our marriage and what a price.

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But I do think she got a fantastic education.

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Not necessarily if I'm being, if I'm being really honest about it, but I do remember.

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Because this I shouldn't admit this that whole world of elite private schools in New York City was completely foreign to me.

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I had no idea these things even existed until I was well into my twenties and started working alongside people who'd attended them.

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The joke I've told for years is if you'd having, been a blue collar kid from Long Island.

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If you'd said to me private school, I would assume you meant Catholic school.

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If you'd said to me boarding school, I would've asked, what did you do they that your parents sent you away?

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Because my dad was forever threatening to send me the military academy and maybe he should have.

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But I just did not know this world existed.

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But, sorry, I'm drifting myself from the main point, which was that parents who wanted their kids to attend these schools who were well versed in them.

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Could parse the differences like Talmudic scholars, a as, as if the difference between a Brearley, a Chapin and a Spence was the difference between walking on the moon and looking at the moon and it was just inscrutable to me.

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As I remember saying to one parent.

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'cause I was teaching in the South Bronx while my daughter was, looking for admission to these schools.

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Said, here's the difference between our kids and their kids.

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The, for our kids, the difference is that we have to choose between good, better, and best.

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For my students in the South Bronx, they have to choose between bad, worse, and holy shit.

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Forgive my language.

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So you know that so what is a good school?

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It's it's a good school when everybody has the choice between good, better, and best.

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And I don't necessarily need to be prescriptive about what that is.

00:16:10.471 --> 00:16:13.921
That's up to you as the parent to decide what is good, better, or best for your child.

00:16:14.471 --> 00:16:15.221
Gene Tavernetti: I like that.

00:16:15.281 --> 00:16:17.531
The last part of your response there.

00:16:17.921 --> 00:16:24.551
I did graduate, I did some graduate research and I was at a visual and performing arts magnet school,

00:16:25.001 --> 00:16:28.871
And the only requirement to get in was you made it through the lottery.

00:16:30.071 --> 00:16:30.401
Robert Pondisicio: Wow.

00:16:30.776 --> 00:16:33.356
Gene Tavernetti: the parents wanted their kids there and it was K eight.

00:16:34.496 --> 00:16:36.296
So here's what the results of my study.

00:16:37.196 --> 00:16:47.986
If you were a and we're asking them about the importance of the arts to them, the upper income parents didn't care about the arts at all.

00:16:48.256 --> 00:16:52.606
If they wanted their kids to take classes, they'd send 'em to classes after school.

00:16:52.846 --> 00:16:52.876
Okay.

00:16:53.426 --> 00:16:57.776
And then the other thing that those parents wanted, they just didn't wanna send 'em to a middle school.

00:16:58.316 --> 00:17:01.016
That K eight environment was a softer environment.

00:17:02.036 --> 00:17:02.456
Robert Pondisicio: I see.

00:17:02.906 --> 00:17:07.736
Gene Tavernetti: The lower the middle income, they wanted their kids to get an art education.

00:17:08.186 --> 00:17:17.306
They wanted what we provided, the lowest socioeconomic, they wanted their kids there because it was a safe school, and they heard it was good.

00:17:18.206 --> 00:17:21.766
That's all that safe equated good to them.

00:17:22.096 --> 00:17:29.286
And what was interesting, getting back to something you said about the academy that you studied, is that parent choice.

00:17:29.836 --> 00:17:36.226
For some reason it got out in the, in our community from our school is that the kids could get kicked out.

00:17:37.066 --> 00:17:39.326
Know that, there's somebody that wants your spot.

00:17:39.596 --> 00:17:49.431
We couldn't do that, but we didn't dissuade them of that notion, because that parent support, for whatever reason, they all had the reasons for them to be there.

00:17:50.031 --> 00:17:51.851
And and they were all different.

00:17:51.851 --> 00:17:56.831
And so to them that good school meant something completely different.

00:17:57.441 --> 00:17:59.101
Robert Pondisicio: I guess I would I'm not pushing back.

00:17:59.101 --> 00:18:06.471
I would just add some nuance, I don't entirely buy the idea, but I don't want to, I can't gain say your empirical data that, that affluent parents.

00:18:06.886 --> 00:18:08.446
Quote, don't care about the arts.

00:18:08.446 --> 00:18:16.306
In my experience, the well off parents want a setting for their kid where they can be the star at something, so to speak.

00:18:16.306 --> 00:18:25.186
In other words, either you're a standout student or you're a standout athlete, or you're a great musician or actor or whatnot, and we wanna find the setting where you get your, you're best chance to shine.

00:18:25.486 --> 00:18:27.046
Look, my, my daughter was an example of that.

00:18:27.046 --> 00:18:32.716
She went to, what was maybe one of the more elite academic schools in New York City.

00:18:33.006 --> 00:18:36.156
To the school that had the reputation as being the athletic powerhouse.

00:18:36.186 --> 00:18:39.506
'cause she was an athlete, she was, she is six foot two and she's an athlete.

00:18:39.506 --> 00:18:44.676
So she wanted to be I think she also wanted a co-ed setting, if I'm being really honest, as opposed to the old girls school.

00:18:44.956 --> 00:18:50.636
But that was a chance for her to, to, to shine in a school where the one she left, she was more of a face in the crowd.

00:18:50.636 --> 00:18:53.646
So I think that's probably probably one thing to it.

00:18:53.826 --> 00:18:57.906
But look the point that you made that really resonates with me is the point about safety.

00:18:57.906 --> 00:19:04.016
I think this is an open secret among urban charter operators, for example who really would.

00:19:04.091 --> 00:19:13.471
Prefer that parents come to them because, they want a classical education if you're a Bronx classical or they want, college going, if you're a Success Academy, or kipp, or Achievement first.

00:19:13.681 --> 00:19:18.761
But at the end of the day, charter tends to be synonymous with safe in, in inner city environments.

00:19:18.761 --> 00:19:23.721
They see those uniforms, they see the well ordered, run schools, and they think, okay, my child is gonna be safe here.

00:19:24.201 --> 00:19:26.151
And look I saw this, frankly, getting back to my own.

00:19:26.306 --> 00:19:29.576
Experience teaching in the DOE, the Department of Education schools.

00:19:30.036 --> 00:19:33.156
I'll never forget this, the principal who was, I don't wanna be unkind.

00:19:33.166 --> 00:19:34.336
I liked her quite a bit.

00:19:34.746 --> 00:19:40.746
I don't think she was, even by her own definition, a great instructional leader, but she was, a public figure in the community.

00:19:40.746 --> 00:19:42.456
She was like the mayor of the school.

00:19:42.786 --> 00:19:45.826
She had in gigantic letters painted on the back of the school.

00:19:45.836 --> 00:19:48.116
The three rules of PS 2 77.

00:19:48.506 --> 00:19:50.696
Rule number one was keep everyone safe.

00:19:50.991 --> 00:19:53.091
Rule number two was get a good education.

00:19:53.721 --> 00:19:56.031
Wait a minute, like why are we saying that?

00:19:56.371 --> 00:20:08.901
But look, and also the original KIPP school was just a few blocks down the street from us, but I was never able to persuade more than one family to,
to enroll in kipp even though it was the highest performing middle school in the city, because it was almost like they'd be thinking to themselves.

00:20:09.206 --> 00:20:10.046
What are you nuts?

00:20:10.046 --> 00:20:15.326
I'm gonna have my kid walk a half a mile down 140 ninth Street before, before it gets slide out.

00:20:15.666 --> 00:20:17.106
What the hell's wrong with you white man?

00:20:17.316 --> 00:20:18.646
No, they're not gonna do that.

00:20:18.946 --> 00:20:20.296
So I, again, what's a good school?

00:20:20.296 --> 00:20:23.506
If safety's an issue, then the safe school is the good school.

00:20:23.506 --> 00:20:24.286
Let's be honest.

00:20:24.996 --> 00:20:25.356
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

00:20:25.516 --> 00:20:28.096
It's interesting the, I wanted to ask you this.

00:20:28.276 --> 00:20:34.626
I'd heard you tell that story about your daughter before, getting into a, because she was an athlete,

00:20:35.306 --> 00:20:35.596
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah,

00:20:35.736 --> 00:20:36.856
Gene Tavernetti: and what.

00:20:38.401 --> 00:20:41.881
You obviously knew her, you listened to her and,

00:20:41.906 --> 00:20:42.421
Robert Pondisicio: once or twice.

00:20:42.421 --> 00:20:42.631
Yeah.

00:20:43.111 --> 00:20:43.381
Gene Tavernetti: yeah.

00:20:44.791 --> 00:20:48.981
And she got to go to her school and she became, live up to her potential as an athlete.

00:20:49.591 --> 00:20:51.011
But how do we do that?

00:20:51.011 --> 00:20:52.301
How do most parents do that?

00:20:52.301 --> 00:20:56.911
You educ educated professional.

00:20:57.031 --> 00:20:57.481
No

00:20:57.511 --> 00:20:57.871
Robert Pondisicio: me.

00:20:58.231 --> 00:20:59.971
I didn't graduate college until I was 39.

00:20:59.971 --> 00:21:01.561
Gene, that's my, my, my

00:21:01.736 --> 00:21:07.596
Gene Tavernetti: I wanted to say nice things before you, I asked you the question, so, but how do most parents deal with that?

00:21:07.636 --> 00:21:13.276
Because it's, okay, so thinking about schools of choice these days, let's talk about some schools of choice.

00:21:13.436 --> 00:21:22.416
One of the things that the smaller schools, the charter schools give up by necessity is all the extracurricular activities.

00:21:23.391 --> 00:21:27.731
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah, I think that's probably I, maybe less true than it used to be, or at least in big cities.

00:21:28.151 --> 00:21:29.721
But I my, my experience is not.

00:21:30.266 --> 00:21:33.826
It is not, and again, I, one should not generalize from one's personal experience.

00:21:34.226 --> 00:21:36.176
But I actually think I'm you're making my point.

00:21:36.176 --> 00:21:39.331
You're not gain saying it in other words true or false.

00:21:39.691 --> 00:21:44.431
We tend, as teachers, as educators to valorize the academics.

00:21:44.461 --> 00:21:48.331
And, I'm certainly guilt guilty of that, but there are many paths to success.

00:21:48.381 --> 00:21:49.971
It's not just academics.

00:21:50.471 --> 00:21:58.851
And to your point about, at least I'm anticipating where you're going with this, that smaller schools d don't have the resources to have, great sports programs or what, whatnot.

00:21:58.911 --> 00:21:59.751
Here's something else.

00:21:59.751 --> 00:22:13.941
They don't have the resources to do that public schools do have, which is a vo-tech, voc, which is I live in a rural rural community in upstate New York where a, disproportionate number of the kids are interested in CTE career and technical education.

00:22:14.366 --> 00:22:23.276
No charter school or micro school is gonna be able to have the kind of resources, that a regional school district can have in terms of vocational education.

00:22:23.326 --> 00:22:30.826
But this to my mind, is still making the case for not against, let's call it a robust ecosystem of opportunities.

00:22:31.216 --> 00:22:35.646
Again, I have, very firm ideas about academics, but I have no interest or desire.

00:22:35.736 --> 00:22:38.856
To impose those upon any child or any parent.

00:22:39.126 --> 00:22:46.996
Hey, if you want your kid to get a, a HVAC certificate and that's what the kid wants to do, then who am I to say, oh no, you must go to college.

00:22:47.066 --> 00:22:49.136
For example maybe that wasn't where you were going with

00:22:49.211 --> 00:22:51.071
Gene Tavernetti: I, I'm with you and I don't know.

00:22:51.611 --> 00:22:53.561
Again, there's gonna be an n of one.

00:22:53.561 --> 00:23:00.791
This was my experience, but actually I think, where I grew up they had vocational programs, but they were regional programs.

00:23:01.316 --> 00:23:01.606
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah.

00:23:02.021 --> 00:23:07.031
Gene Tavernetti: So we had kids from other districts come in to learn how to build houses, construction tech.

00:23:07.751 --> 00:23:08.111
Robert Pondisicio: same.

00:23:08.111 --> 00:23:08.981
Same here in New York.

00:23:09.251 --> 00:23:14.581
Gene Tavernetti: And I guess as, and I think you had just mentioned this, is that maybe we need a system.

00:23:15.031 --> 00:23:28.361
Of schools and I don't know how complicated that would be, you mentioned, we met so far, we mentioned sports and we mentioned vocational ed, but we also have, I don't wanna say the specter, the special ed.

00:23:28.491 --> 00:23:31.731
How do we deal with special ed in

00:23:31.816 --> 00:23:42.601
Robert Pondisicio: No, I'm not an expert on special ed and I don't pretend to be, but be but before we leave, the resources of the public school system wherever you are and this is obviously gonna vary from state to state, but I see no reason.

00:23:43.111 --> 00:23:54.816
Why let's call them non-traditional students, whether they're charter, homeschool, micro school, et cetera, why they should not have equal access to, what we call Bo Cs here, those regional, vocational technical training centers.

00:23:55.586 --> 00:23:59.866
Sports teams, orchestras et cetera.

00:23:59.866 --> 00:24:04.236
We, the, those parents are paying their taxes, their, and their school taxes just like the rest of us.

00:24:04.236 --> 00:24:10.676
So I don't see any reason why their children should be denied the opportunity to play on teams participate in bands, on and on.

00:24:11.186 --> 00:24:15.206
Gene Tavernetti: I'm just laughing about the we have a was a football coach.

00:24:15.676 --> 00:24:22.486
I was a football coach at a public school, and I lost what would've been six of my starters.

00:24:22.906 --> 00:24:24.696
So that's not six outta 22.

00:24:24.696 --> 00:24:26.976
They probably would've gone both ways to the

00:24:27.006 --> 00:24:28.266
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah, that's happier.

00:24:28.356 --> 00:24:28.866
Happier team.

00:24:29.366 --> 00:24:30.506
Gene Tavernetti: To the private school.

00:24:30.806 --> 00:24:34.746
And it happens, it happens in the public schools, and they're, they're decried.

00:24:34.746 --> 00:24:36.626
Oh, oh no, they didn't come for sports.

00:24:36.626 --> 00:24:38.446
They came for, whatever purpose.

00:24:39.496 --> 00:24:45.186
So I guess it's, I don't think it's insurmountable, but it certainly becomes, more complicated.

00:24:45.366 --> 00:24:47.766
Like I, I'll give you an example of the special ed.

00:24:48.126 --> 00:24:58.476
Uh, you have kids going to an elite private school that have some legitimate or possibly legitimate needs.

00:24:59.181 --> 00:25:03.681
And so they send 'em to the public school down the street to get them assessed.

00:25:03.741 --> 00:25:04.791
And they have to assess it.

00:25:05.181 --> 00:25:13.531
They have to assess them, and they're not really happy about spending their resources because these kids aren't local kids that are paying property taxes.

00:25:13.531 --> 00:25:18.351
These kids are from Asia and new England, and they're not from California.

00:25:18.531 --> 00:25:25.251
So I just, I'm not saying it's unworkable, but there are issues, and I think you brought it up in the beginning, that.

00:25:25.611 --> 00:25:29.541
That we need to think about those things when we talk about school choice.

00:25:29.871 --> 00:25:31.731
That there are issues to be worked out.

00:25:32.916 --> 00:25:37.326
Robert Pondisicio: One of the knocks you hear on school choice is exactly that.

00:25:37.376 --> 00:25:39.536
They can kick kids back into the public system.

00:25:39.536 --> 00:25:46.316
They can counsel them out, whether it's for, they have, special education needs or other issues that, that, quote, we can't serve here.

00:25:46.626 --> 00:25:47.556
I suppose that's true.

00:25:47.556 --> 00:25:51.216
On the other hand, nobody ever talks about how this works in the other direction.

00:25:51.646 --> 00:25:55.366
Look at the budget of almost any decent sized school district.

00:25:55.826 --> 00:26:05.816
You'll almost invariably see some sums and sometimes substantial sums for out of district placements where the public school system decides, Hey, we can't service this child's need.

00:26:06.176 --> 00:26:11.226
We're gonna send them to a, a $70,000 a year private school or a boarding school or whatnot.

00:26:11.226 --> 00:26:12.996
That is expert in, in, in this.

00:26:12.996 --> 00:26:18.806
Now, to be blunt, often you find, you, you interrogate that data and you find a pushy parent with a lawyer.

00:26:18.851 --> 00:26:23.981
Behind it who's, looking to play the system to get that that opportunity for his or her child.

00:26:23.981 --> 00:26:25.081
Here we go again.

00:26:25.131 --> 00:26:28.161
Gene, like every good, conversation is, it's complicated.

00:26:28.261 --> 00:26:29.701
That one's complicated too.

00:26:30.101 --> 00:26:32.601
And, I also, I'm not expert on school finance.

00:26:32.601 --> 00:26:39.586
I don't wanna pretend to be, but I it strains my credulity that we could not in the move to create tax credits and ESAs and whatnot.

00:26:39.586 --> 00:26:45.346
Why would you not wanna create special financial incentives for private schools to, in fact serve special ed kids?

00:26:45.346 --> 00:26:51.026
If the ESA as I'm making this number up, $7,500 a kid, then why shouldn't it be 15,000 for the special ed kid?

00:26:51.041 --> 00:27:00.621
Create the market incentives that would incentivize private schools who are gonna operate increasingly on public dollars to, to take those kids and not reject them.

00:27:01.486 --> 00:27:02.686
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, it, you're right.

00:27:02.686 --> 00:27:03.256
It's a complic.

00:27:03.286 --> 00:27:04.396
It's a complicated issue.

00:27:04.396 --> 00:27:08.231
And I think your example of the the $70,000 kid, the low incidents.

00:27:08.881 --> 00:27:19.001
They're, you're in a, you're in a school district of 2000 kids and you've got this kid that's gonna cost, a hundred grand a year for their, their fair and appropriate education.

00:27:19.001 --> 00:27:20.301
So it's not simple.

00:27:20.351 --> 00:27:20.741
It's not

00:27:20.786 --> 00:27:20.996
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah.

00:27:21.066 --> 00:27:21.276
No.

00:27:21.276 --> 00:27:24.516
None of it's simple the activist class likes to pretend that it is.

00:27:25.371 --> 00:27:25.731
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

00:27:25.801 --> 00:27:32.881
And the other thing that I wanted to get your opinion on, I think for school choice to happen, equitably for everybody.

00:27:33.181 --> 00:27:37.111
Is that the, like the school that you worked in needs to be better?

00:27:37.711 --> 00:27:38.401
It we want our

00:27:38.531 --> 00:27:39.256
Robert Pondisicio: no question.

00:27:39.361 --> 00:27:42.241
Gene Tavernetti: We want our choices to be a choice of good schools.

00:27:42.241 --> 00:27:44.681
Not, I just, I need to get outta here.

00:27:46.256 --> 00:27:47.846
Robert Pondisicio: No, tha Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

00:27:47.846 --> 00:28:02.496
And, and thank you for teeing up my current favorite subject, which is, I said before that my ed reform credentials were in pretty good order,
but I've also been, I think about as critical of the ed reform movement as one can be and still, be welcomed into the club, so to speak.

00:28:03.096 --> 00:28:04.686
And I used to say this.

00:28:04.701 --> 00:28:10.661
Quietly, and now it's a flag I've planted in the ground that look, this has just failed.

00:28:10.721 --> 00:28:13.361
Most, most reform efforts have simply failed, testing.

00:28:13.361 --> 00:28:15.821
And I'm not against testing and accountability and standards.

00:28:15.821 --> 00:28:23.951
I'm very much in favor of those things, but it's dishonest to, to pretend that they have had anything like their predicted effect and the reason in my diagnosis.

00:28:24.371 --> 00:28:31.811
Is simply because it makes assumptions about the work that, that we do as educators that are simply demonstrably false.

00:28:31.811 --> 00:28:38.241
In other words, and I'm gonna oversimplify here, what's the internal logic of test driven accountability?

00:28:38.241 --> 00:28:38.421
It's this.

00:28:39.271 --> 00:28:40.441
Hey, teacher, Hey school.

00:28:40.441 --> 00:28:41.851
Hey district you know what to do.

00:28:41.851 --> 00:28:42.931
We don't need to tell you what to do.

00:28:42.931 --> 00:28:44.371
We're just gonna hold you accountable.

00:28:44.421 --> 00:28:49.681
And we are going to, either reward you or punish you based on your results, but we're not gonna tell you what to do.

00:28:50.141 --> 00:28:55.031
And for years I've said in in, ed reform gatherings, like you have this idea that we know what to do.

00:28:55.031 --> 00:28:55.271
What?

00:28:55.301 --> 00:28:56.981
Where'd you get that idea?

00:28:57.011 --> 00:29:02.901
That there's all this competence, in, in K 12 just, that just needs to be properly incentivized.

00:29:02.901 --> 00:29:04.581
Have you not been to ed school?

00:29:05.216 --> 00:29:07.766
Because if you had been, you would not have these ideas.

00:29:08.176 --> 00:29:14.856
And now I find myself Gene saying the exact same thing almost the exact same thing in among my school choice advocates.

00:29:15.156 --> 00:29:22.596
Hey, you have this idea that there's all this dynamism and excellence, just waiting to be, unshackled from bureaucratic regulations or union dom.

00:29:23.656 --> 00:29:25.426
Where did you get that idea?

00:29:25.546 --> 00:29:41.366
'cause it's still not there, in other words so when I say, this is the flag I'm sticking in the ground, it's this if we'd spent, the last couple of
decades trying to improve practice as opposed to assuming it's sound and trying to incentivize it with policy levers, I just think we'd be further along.

00:29:41.866 --> 00:29:52.226
For whatever time I have left in this business, that's gonna be my laser-Like focus is look we have the teachers, we have we're not gonna radically transform the 3.7 million teachers.

00:29:52.226 --> 00:29:55.676
We're not gonna lure boxcar numbers of the cognitive elite into classrooms.

00:29:55.956 --> 00:30:01.465
I like to invoke Donald Rumsfeld and his, offhanded remark about you go to war with the army you have not the army you wish you had.

00:30:01.465 --> 00:30:03.145
The same thing is true with school.

00:30:03.835 --> 00:30:05.305
We're gonna go to school with the teachers.

00:30:05.305 --> 00:30:07.315
We have not the teachers we wish we had.

00:30:07.615 --> 00:30:12.415
So therefore, the question, the only question I think that we should be asking is how do we make them better?

00:30:12.445 --> 00:30:15.235
How do we make this job doable by those men and women?

00:30:15.535 --> 00:30:19.475
'cause the cavalry ain't coming, and all we've done for the last 30 years.

00:30:20.045 --> 00:30:29.615
Is, like the old joke about beatings will continue until morale improves, is we keep putting more and more on teachers' plate and say you're just gonna have to walk and chew gum at the same time.

00:30:29.715 --> 00:30:30.915
We're not gonna do that.

00:30:30.975 --> 00:30:31.245
Okay.

00:30:31.245 --> 00:30:32.565
That is not gonna happen.

00:30:32.965 --> 00:30:50.345
We cannot continue to put every problem in American life on the backs of teachers asking them to be everything from, pedagogues to curriculum creators,
to, to mental health professionals and expect to get good outcomes at the basic functions of getting kids to, minimal competency in reading and math.

00:30:50.375 --> 00:30:53.215
It's just that is a clearly bad idea.

00:30:54.115 --> 00:30:57.565
Gene Tavernetti: We're gonna back up a little bit to something you said earlier about curriculum,

00:30:58.190 --> 00:30:58.520
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah.

00:30:58.940 --> 00:30:59.150
Oh,

00:30:59.395 --> 00:31:00.115
Gene Tavernetti: CU curriculum

00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:00.620
Robert Pondisicio: word for me.

00:31:01.315 --> 00:31:04.465
Gene Tavernetti: Embedded in a lot of your answers, that's a baseline for you.

00:31:04.745 --> 00:31:07.025
We have to have, we have to have a good curriculum.

00:31:08.245 --> 00:31:08.935
And

00:31:09.010 --> 00:31:09.970
Robert Pondisicio: good Hirsch guy.

00:31:09.970 --> 00:31:10.360
That's that.

00:31:10.360 --> 00:31:13.270
I said before that he's my guru and my disciple and I meant it.

00:31:13.855 --> 00:31:15.235
Gene Tavernetti: so how do we.

00:31:15.350 --> 00:31:20.880
If you're a teacher, you go to work at a charter school, let's say Robert, we're, we'd like to hire you.

00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:22.530
Let it, let me tell you how we do things.

00:31:22.530 --> 00:31:22.820
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah.

00:31:23.245 --> 00:31:24.295
Gene Tavernetti: Here's the curriculum.

00:31:24.445 --> 00:31:26.275
Here's how you know the instruction.

00:31:26.275 --> 00:31:27.205
Here's how we teach.

00:31:27.685 --> 00:31:28.285
Um,

00:31:28.785 --> 00:31:32.775
Robert Pondisicio: You've already got me Jean, because none of that was said to me when I was in the public school system.

00:31:32.775 --> 00:31:35.985
What was said to me is Mr. Panio, you're the best person to know what every child needs.

00:31:36.475 --> 00:31:37.495
Are you outta your mind?

00:31:37.495 --> 00:31:38.125
No, I'm not.

00:31:38.725 --> 00:31:43.525
Gene Tavernetti: So I can, that, can that message be spread like in public schools?

00:31:43.525 --> 00:31:48.295
Do public schools need to have that identity so when a parent comes, they move into the

00:31:48.385 --> 00:31:49.225
Robert Pondisicio: Which identity?

00:31:49.225 --> 00:31:49.495
Jean?

00:31:49.615 --> 00:31:49.765
Sorry.

00:31:49.765 --> 00:31:50.275
Let's be clear.

00:31:50.275 --> 00:31:52.135
What identity do public schools need to have?

00:31:52.745 --> 00:31:53.885
Gene Tavernetti: This is how we do things here.

00:31:54.815 --> 00:31:55.955
Robert Pondisicio: Oh, no question.

00:31:56.495 --> 00:31:57.755
Gene Tavernetti: this is our instructional vision.

00:31:57.905 --> 00:32:00.965
This is what you can expect when your kid graduates.

00:32:00.965 --> 00:32:05.725
This is what you can expect when they attend our school which is the same thing.

00:32:05.885 --> 00:32:09.205
I think any charter or private or, that's what they're doing.

00:32:09.685 --> 00:32:13.605
That's why the tea, that's why the identity is why they were chosen by the parent.

00:32:14.105 --> 00:32:24.205
Robert Pondisicio: I think that's probably right, although, never underestimate the ability of any school, public, private, charter, et cetera, to be lured onto the rocks by the, the siren song of, educational fads.

00:32:24.230 --> 00:32:33.960
There's one in Texas now that's claiming to get the best results in the country with no teachers in two hours every day in front of, an AI program like that can't possibly be right.

00:32:34.460 --> 00:32:38.030
So there's a lot of, there's a lot of froth in, in, in our world.

00:32:38.510 --> 00:32:47.685
But I'm going to, I'm gonna assume I know what you're you're implying in your question like what would I. Routinize the content of public schools.

00:32:47.715 --> 00:32:53.255
Would I, in other words, would I put less discretion in teachers' hands and more this is the curriculum, this is what we teach here.

00:32:53.285 --> 00:32:54.365
Yeah, absolutely.

00:32:54.795 --> 00:33:06.195
And less, this sounds somewhat contradictory with what I said earlier about I don't wanna impose my priors on schools there, there's an exception to that, and this is why I'm an Ed Hirsch guy, because, at the end of the day.

00:33:06.840 --> 00:33:14.850
Language doesn't care what we think doesn't care about our ideas about, student engagement and culturally responsive pedagogy and, make it your own, et cetera.

00:33:15.280 --> 00:33:25.630
Hirsch's singular insight unassailable insight to my mind is look, and I think I said it before, speakers and writers make assumptions about what their readers and listeners know.

00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:27.460
So once you understand.

00:33:27.780 --> 00:33:30.120
That's just a basic non-negotiable.

00:33:30.150 --> 00:33:33.440
It's just simply the, the mechanics of language proficiency.

00:33:33.800 --> 00:33:39.190
It's not a desire to impose, a dead white male curriculum or Eurocentric ideas on kids.

00:33:39.190 --> 00:33:42.070
It's simply, it is just the way language works.

00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:49.050
Once you accept that then you have an obligation to ensure that every child in front of you.

00:33:49.570 --> 00:33:53.950
Leaves you with that basic array of mental furniture as I like to call it.

00:33:54.250 --> 00:34:05.870
So if decide instead that, oh no, we're going to, let the child decide what he or she wants to read and we're gonna worship at the altar of student engagement, then you are literally in, imposing a kind of illiteracy on children.

00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:12.890
My one non-negotiable, I suppose the thing that I would routinize is, yeah, you gotta have to have a.

00:34:13.680 --> 00:34:22.890
Knowledge rich language rich curriculum from the very first days of schools school, that ensures that kids get to the language proficiency starting line.

00:34:22.890 --> 00:34:24.240
It's not the alpha and Omega.

00:34:24.670 --> 00:34:29.530
But if you disregard that then the kids will fall behind and fall further behind thanks to something.

00:34:29.530 --> 00:34:32.980
That Keith Stankovich calls the Matthew effect, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:34.425
So that's again the one.

00:34:35.395 --> 00:34:44.345
The thing that I would insist on every every school does is just simply recognize the mechanics of how language proficiency works and what it means to a child's education.

00:34:44.345 --> 00:34:49.085
Like we have a moral obligation to get every kid to that language proficiency, starting line after that.

00:34:49.085 --> 00:34:49.865
Go with God.

00:34:49.925 --> 00:34:55.595
Choose your own adventure, but you can't be you can't be doing, choose your own adventure education from kindergarten on.

00:34:55.595 --> 00:34:56.945
That's just a recipe for disaster.

00:35:03.158 --> 00:35:03.488
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

00:35:03.488 --> 00:35:04.988
So I think we're clear about that.

00:35:05.228 --> 00:35:05.498
Okay.

00:35:05.508 --> 00:35:07.428
We got that checked off our list.

00:35:08.178 --> 00:35:16.138
Now I think I told you my initial time that I reached out to you that I had asked my friend, Zach Gelle to introduce me to you.

00:35:16.273 --> 00:35:17.623
Robert Pondisicio: Oh, okay.

00:35:17.788 --> 00:35:20.578
Gene Tavernetti: of course Zach has all his fans, and it never happened.

00:35:20.578 --> 00:35:28.528
But you were at research ed and so what that tells me is beyond curriculum, you also have an interest in instruction.

00:35:28.706 --> 00:35:35.662
So is would there be any things that we would want teachers to be doing in presenting that curriculum?

00:35:36.162 --> 00:35:37.002
Do we wanna go there?

00:35:37.002 --> 00:35:37.902
You know what I'm asking?

00:35:37.932 --> 00:35:43.062
We're going from curriculum and now because it doesn't matter if you have curriculum, if the instruction's not that good.

00:35:43.562 --> 00:35:44.917
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah I think that's right.

00:35:44.977 --> 00:35:46.477
One battle at a time, please.

00:35:46.507 --> 00:35:50.887
I think right now the first battle is the language proficiency knowledge rich curriculum one.

00:35:51.427 --> 00:35:56.592
So I, I'm I don't have a lot of hills or time left to die on those hills.

00:35:56.592 --> 00:36:07.722
One is, and by the way, before we leave the subject of curriculum, let me say that, it's not merely my desire to impose a curriculum on people like it, it is also part of the banner.

00:36:07.752 --> 00:36:11.172
What we discussed earlier is one of the ways to make the job doable.

00:36:11.222 --> 00:36:12.032
By the teachers.

00:36:12.032 --> 00:36:14.012
We have not the teachers we wish we had.

00:36:14.542 --> 00:36:23.392
I dunno about you, but when I was a new teacher, I spent an ungodly amount of time preparing lessons from scratch because I was told that was a best practice.

00:36:23.492 --> 00:36:31.822
I won't bore you with the research on this, but we, we know the teachers tend not to do it very well, not because they're, bad people or bad teachers, but it's just, is what it is.

00:36:31.822 --> 00:36:34.072
We under, we undershoot what kids can do.

00:36:34.502 --> 00:36:44.822
And it's also really hard to expect a teacher working in isolation, say in fifth grade, where I taught to understand the fourth grade curriculum, and what the prerequisites were and set kids up for success in sixth grade.

00:36:44.872 --> 00:36:58.842
It's just one of those kind of design elements that it just makes more sense to have a coherent K 12 cumulative sequential curriculum and take that off the teacher's plate, so to speak, so they have more time for the things that they can only do.

00:36:59.237 --> 00:37:03.407
Give feedback, develop relationships, get to know with, families, et cetera.

00:37:03.587 --> 00:37:04.577
Nobody else can do that.

00:37:04.577 --> 00:37:08.627
But the classroom teacher, you gotta take something off of their plate if you want.

00:37:08.687 --> 00:37:14.447
If you wanna make the job doable by, by those teachers, curriculum is simply the most obvious thing to do.

00:37:14.747 --> 00:37:17.177
Does that mean, handing, handing everybody a script?

00:37:17.542 --> 00:37:18.977
Like I, and back to Zach?

00:37:18.977 --> 00:37:20.567
I'm not anti scripts.

00:37:20.567 --> 00:37:26.047
And if you look at the data, project follow through and whatnot, all direct instruction doesn't work.

00:37:26.097 --> 00:37:27.687
Like, why would we wanna do that?

00:37:27.997 --> 00:37:30.037
Sorry I'm giving you a windy answer here.

00:37:30.097 --> 00:37:35.182
But the short answer to, to your question is, what do you do about pedagogy?

00:37:35.182 --> 00:37:44.422
You cultivate a culture of education that has a healthy respect for evidence and data and not, preference and philosophy, which is what we run on now.

00:37:44.922 --> 00:37:50.052
Gene Tavernetti: You talked about, you're heel to die on and I am gonna propose this to you, Robert.

00:37:51.007 --> 00:37:54.067
You and I become Butch and Sundance jumping off the cliff.

00:37:54.697 --> 00:37:55.117
Alright?

00:37:55.252 --> 00:37:56.242
Robert Pondisicio: Who are those guys?

00:37:57.697 --> 00:38:00.687
Gene Tavernetti: And and because, you've been talking, curriculum.

00:38:00.687 --> 00:38:01.377
I get it.

00:38:01.507 --> 00:38:02.797
That's important, right?

00:38:02.797 --> 00:38:09.287
You can't argue that, especially with all the arguments that you bring up around language and understanding.

00:38:10.337 --> 00:38:11.087
Can't argue with it.

00:38:11.587 --> 00:38:18.247
Robert Pondisicio: You can, and people do, by the way, because we worship at the altar of student engagement, we confuse engagement with learning.

00:38:18.277 --> 00:38:21.497
This is another, insight that Zach talks, quite eloquently

00:38:21.497 --> 00:38:24.697
Gene Tavernetti: We can't, uh, forget the illogical arguments.

00:38:24.937 --> 00:38:26.737
The fact, let's talk.

00:38:26.787 --> 00:38:33.257
So for the past 20 some years, my focus has been on instruction on explicit instruction.

00:38:34.622 --> 00:38:43.562
I don't think your previous comment was strong enough about teachers not knowing how to do that instruction.

00:38:44.062 --> 00:38:48.757
Robert Pondisicio: No I don't agree with you at all, but I've, most of my work has been in the area of curriculum.

00:38:49.117 --> 00:38:51.127
Obviously, it doesn't teach itself.

00:38:51.557 --> 00:38:56.627
But the problem with direct instruction or, I'm meaning small d, small I, explicit instruction.

00:38:57.327 --> 00:39:04.947
Is that we have raised not just a generation, but multiple generations of teachers who seem to be, who think it is.

00:39:04.977 --> 00:39:13.617
It is either robotic unengaging, not best practice, boring for kids and ineffective, and in fact, it's none of the above.

00:39:13.947 --> 00:39:19.587
It's the other stuff, that is this is the price associated with worshiping of the altar of student engagement.

00:39:20.162 --> 00:39:23.252
Assuming that the engaged child is the learning child.

00:39:23.622 --> 00:39:30.972
So you tell me since it's your field, but it seems to me the conceptual breakthrough has to be, look, are we gonna be an evidence-based profession or not?

00:39:31.872 --> 00:39:37.692
Gene Tavernetti: Are we going to be a profession that actually teaches kids that are, that we're successful teaching?

00:39:37.692 --> 00:39:46.042
Because I think one of the things that happens, the schools that I've been in I'm not there because everything's going great, and so when we talk about.

00:39:46.867 --> 00:39:58.687
Explicit instruction embedded in everything that I talk about is all the research that you hear, but I don't talk about the research, talk about how these kids can be successful.

00:39:59.377 --> 00:40:10.572
Because I think what's happens is something you said earlier, there's this vicious cycle of kids, not kids not doing well, and then our expectations are lowered.

00:40:11.957 --> 00:40:12.247
Robert Pondisicio: Sure.

00:40:12.372 --> 00:40:22.392
Gene Tavernetti: we and so instead of the answer being better instruction with better curriculum, it's those fads that you talk about that we know don't work.

00:40:23.022 --> 00:40:28.972
But again, we get back to, uh, is that something that we can ask teachers to do?

00:40:29.782 --> 00:40:31.822
In some districts, we can't tell 'em.

00:40:31.822 --> 00:40:33.022
We can't tell 'em what to do.

00:40:33.022 --> 00:40:37.292
They talk about they talk about academic freedom as if they're in a university.

00:40:37.602 --> 00:40:39.902
My goodness they're your employees.

00:40:40.337 --> 00:40:41.652
Robert Pondisicio: Okay you brought it up.

00:40:41.652 --> 00:40:46.622
So you're gonna regret this because this is, this is kinda teeing up something on, down the heart of the plate here.

00:40:47.162 --> 00:40:49.712
Where in God's name did we get this idea?

00:40:50.392 --> 00:40:52.707
That there's a, this concept called academic freedom.

00:40:53.732 --> 00:40:55.352
That is a higher education thing.

00:40:55.352 --> 00:40:56.912
That is not a K 12 thing.

00:40:57.282 --> 00:41:05.742
I'm not gonna bore you with the details, but there's a mountain of court decisions that functionally say, look, teacher, you are, you do not have free speech.

00:41:05.792 --> 00:41:07.022
Your students have free speech.

00:41:07.052 --> 00:41:08.942
You don't, you are hired speech.

00:41:09.402 --> 00:41:11.502
And you are there to deliver a curriculum.

00:41:12.022 --> 00:41:15.662
That the school board and district have hired you to deliver.

00:41:15.992 --> 00:41:24.572
So this idea that teachers, their speech is being chilled or whatnot, is simply not, it's not a thing like, like the kids say.

00:41:24.572 --> 00:41:25.532
And it bewilders me.

00:41:25.532 --> 00:41:31.262
And again, I'm not a teacher basher, but this is, to me evidence of the brokenness of the culture of teaching.

00:41:31.772 --> 00:41:50.732
I need to get data to back up what I'm about to say because I've made this point and I'd this is a studyable phenomenon, but I would wager, my
last dime that a vanishingly small slice of America's 3.7 public school teachers consciously think of themselves and their day-to-day work as.

00:41:51.262 --> 00:41:53.872
I'm a state actor, I'm a public employee.

00:41:54.202 --> 00:41:59.182
I am a, dispassionate member of the government, which is exactly what you are.

00:41:59.242 --> 00:42:01.582
If you're a public school teacher, you are not a free agent.

00:42:02.222 --> 00:42:06.302
You are a public employee and if you follow that idea where it leads.

00:42:06.427 --> 00:42:09.337
It's, it suggests a certain humility, right?

00:42:09.337 --> 00:42:11.047
This is not my performance space.

00:42:11.077 --> 00:42:13.397
I am here to perform a role.

00:42:13.577 --> 00:42:21.147
Now, I've made a, dark joke about this over the years, saying no bus driver ever wakes up in the morning and says, look, I didn't become a bus driver to follow a route.

00:42:21.177 --> 00:42:23.577
I'm gonna drive this bus for social justice.

00:42:23.647 --> 00:42:28.352
And instead of, driving up and down Fifth Avenue, you take your bus to, to Harlem or the South Bronx.

00:42:28.892 --> 00:42:37.712
I grant you that teachers are different than cops and firemen and bus drivers and motor vehicles workers, but not that different.

00:42:37.742 --> 00:42:52.477
In other words, we are, the behind me on the shelf, I could show you my master's portfolio in which, I had to demonstrate, as a condition of licensure and getting my master's that I was, prepared to be an agent of change to teach for social justice, et cetera.

00:42:52.477 --> 00:42:56.587
At no point, Jean, did anybody ever say to me, what now?

00:42:56.587 --> 00:43:04.087
And 20 years later, 25 years later, strikes me as being the most important thing I should have heard, which is, Hey, pio, you're not a free agent.

00:43:04.617 --> 00:43:05.007
Okay.

00:43:05.277 --> 00:43:07.137
You are a public employee.

00:43:07.137 --> 00:43:12.567
You are a deeply influential state actor with a captive audience of 25 people.

00:43:12.687 --> 00:43:14.667
Children who are not yours.

00:43:15.027 --> 00:43:16.827
Behave yourself accordingly.

00:43:17.347 --> 00:43:18.922
That is not a message that teachers, I think.

00:43:19.552 --> 00:43:22.042
Want to hear, but I think it's one they need to hear.

00:43:22.142 --> 00:43:25.122
In other words, that pendulum of no, I'm gonna bring my whole self to work.

00:43:25.122 --> 00:43:27.652
I'm going to, I didn't come here to follow a curriculum.

00:43:28.022 --> 00:43:29.882
I think we need to rethink that.

00:43:30.477 --> 00:43:30.717
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

00:43:30.987 --> 00:43:31.277
Yeah.

00:43:31.697 --> 00:43:32.957
No, abso absolutely.

00:43:33.232 --> 00:43:38.887
And the other thing is because I've worked in schools where there was a union and where there wasn't a union.

00:43:40.547 --> 00:43:42.077
I understand why there's a union.

00:43:42.077 --> 00:43:42.827
You have one

00:43:42.827 --> 00:43:43.967
Robert Pondisicio: Yeah, I'm not a union bas.

00:43:43.997 --> 00:43:44.657
Gene Tavernetti: ignorant.

00:43:44.747 --> 00:43:52.437
No I'm just saying because that's usually where it comes up, it's like the contract says, or we don't have to do this and it's a misinterpretation.

00:43:52.497 --> 00:43:53.037
I'm with you.

00:43:53.037 --> 00:43:54.447
It's a misinterpretation.

00:43:54.687 --> 00:44:00.447
And again, getting back to something earlier we talked about is hey, this is how we do things here.

00:44:01.347 --> 00:44:08.237
Not only you're a government employee, but we're gonna give you a help in telling you how to do your job and we're gonna assist you and we're gonna help you get better.

00:44:08.787 --> 00:44:09.087
Robert Pondisicio: Yep.

00:44:09.942 --> 00:44:11.082
Gene Tavernetti: but that's part of the deal.

00:44:11.592 --> 00:44:16.642
And if not, no hard feelings, there's a school down the street Robert I really enjoyed this.

00:44:16.762 --> 00:44:19.122
Anything any final thoughts

00:44:19.227 --> 00:44:19.767
Robert Pondisicio: are we done?

00:44:19.857 --> 00:44:20.942
I thought we're just getting started.

00:44:21.842 --> 00:44:22.862
Wow, that was fast.

00:44:23.122 --> 00:44:25.757
Gene Tavernetti: I'm, I know I'm not as entertaining as I think I am.

00:44:26.027 --> 00:44:26.582
I don't know about.

00:44:27.082 --> 00:44:28.002
Robert Pondisicio: I'm having a good time.

00:44:28.152 --> 00:44:29.982
Oh I'll ask you the same question you asked me.

00:44:30.042 --> 00:44:32.262
I already described what you know, my hill to die on.

00:44:32.302 --> 00:44:33.982
Focusing on instruction.

00:44:34.042 --> 00:44:43.882
And again I'm, I know I'm preaching to the choir here because our audience, I assume is mostly instructional folks as opposed to the policy people who tend to listen to me flat, my jowls.

00:44:44.242 --> 00:44:46.732
But if I'm, my, if the hill that I'm gonna die on is.

00:44:46.742 --> 00:44:51.482
Is preaching practice to policy makers and making teaching doable by the teachers.

00:44:51.482 --> 00:44:53.402
We have, not the teachers we wish we had.

00:44:53.642 --> 00:44:55.962
If that's, the hill that I'm gonna die on, what's yours?

00:44:56.927 --> 00:44:58.697
Gene Tavernetti: Mine is effective instruction.

00:44:59.567 --> 00:45:10.997
And you know it, and it's funny you mentioned all the pushback we get from it, but if you take a look at the people in the field, the thought, I hate the word thought leaders,

00:45:11.282 --> 00:45:12.062
Robert Pondisicio: Oh goodness.

00:45:13.262 --> 00:45:16.177
You know how you can tell it's not a thought leader because they say they are.

00:45:16.512 --> 00:45:16.872
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

00:45:16.902 --> 00:45:17.232
Yeah.

00:45:17.287 --> 00:45:26.737
I I chose that over edu celebrity, but same, you get the idea, you get the idea who these folks are, and you ask them, were you ever an athlete?

00:45:26.857 --> 00:45:28.087
Did you coach anything?

00:45:28.147 --> 00:45:29.557
Did you ever perform?

00:45:29.747 --> 00:45:33.587
Were you a and they all have some performance in their background.

00:45:34.037 --> 00:45:36.887
And you know what happened when they learned how to perform?

00:45:37.187 --> 00:45:38.807
It was explicit instruction.

00:45:39.002 --> 00:45:39.152
Robert Pondisicio: Of

00:45:39.332 --> 00:45:40.592
Gene Tavernetti: They're sold on it.

00:45:40.832 --> 00:45:41.852
They're sold on it.

00:45:41.852 --> 00:45:43.832
And it's not an intellectual knowing.

00:45:43.832 --> 00:45:45.482
It's an emotional knowing.

00:45:45.722 --> 00:45:46.982
And that's the way I am.

00:45:47.412 --> 00:45:49.572
And so that's what I think.

00:45:50.062 --> 00:45:55.072
I think teachers get it if it's presented in a way that makes sense to them.

00:45:55.222 --> 00:46:01.042
And I'm gonna tell you, there has been so much sucky inservice and professional development.

00:46:01.432 --> 00:46:02.692
I don't blame them.

00:46:03.152 --> 00:46:04.981
I don't blame the teachers for their attitudes.

00:46:05.431 --> 00:46:09.681
But if you show 'em something that works, okay I'm gonna try this.

00:46:10.191 --> 00:46:16.071
Robert Pondisicio: We, we started this conversation with my, you asked me to reflect on my, my, my journey into education.

00:46:16.071 --> 00:46:34.611
One of my very first days pre-service summer of 2002, I'll never forget this, a, some district puba in, the South Bronx District seven
telling us, brand new, not even, teachers would be teachers that making kids memorize their multiplication tables is quote, child abuse.

00:46:35.151 --> 00:46:37.101
It's wow, I, that, that's interesting.

00:46:37.581 --> 00:46:43.221
This is by the way, a nice thing about being a 39-year-old instead of a 22-year-old who was like, immediately ignored that advice.

00:46:43.641 --> 00:46:44.331
Intuitive like that.

00:46:44.676 --> 00:46:46.306
And I think about that now.

00:46:46.496 --> 00:46:50.986
Millions of us have been hearing these things like, oh, drill and kill is terrible.

00:46:50.986 --> 00:46:53.416
Don't kids memorize this or drill that, et cetera.

00:46:53.661 --> 00:46:58.551
And now with the benefit of hindsight, I wanna say, to say to them, have you ever heard of cognitive load theory?

00:46:58.861 --> 00:47:00.061
Do you know what that is?

00:47:00.451 --> 00:47:08.911
Because, I'm increasingly convinced, to go into your line of work instead of mine, gene, that cognitive load theory is the skeleton key that unlocks all of this.

00:47:08.911 --> 00:47:13.561
In other words, re remember what it was like when you learned how to drive a car and it was terrifying.

00:47:13.831 --> 00:47:15.631
Death grip on the wheel, eyes on the road.

00:47:15.631 --> 00:47:18.661
You didn't even want to divert your gaze for a second to look at the speedometer.

00:47:18.661 --> 00:47:23.851
That felt like a reckless thing to do now, because so much of this is automatic.

00:47:24.196 --> 00:47:29.206
You listen to podcasts, you talk to your wife, you're looking at the scenery, et cetera, because.

00:47:29.651 --> 00:47:30.911
That's cognitive load theory.

00:47:30.961 --> 00:47:33.241
You have internalized how to do the basic.

00:47:33.241 --> 00:47:38.061
And now you're, you have freed up bandwidth to do other things that's how reading comprehension works.

00:47:38.061 --> 00:47:41.451
Once you master decoding and phonics, that's how higher order math works.

00:47:41.451 --> 00:47:43.251
Once you've got basic functions down.

00:47:43.621 --> 00:47:47.961
So that's one of those ideas that like, wait a minute how did we go so wrong?

00:47:48.271 --> 00:47:54.511
Or fall into the throttle of such romantic ideas that we say to new teachers that what you're implying.

00:47:54.636 --> 00:47:56.946
Practice drill mastery.

00:47:57.246 --> 00:47:58.356
Those are bad things.

00:47:58.356 --> 00:48:00.156
No, they are absolutely not bad things.

00:48:00.156 --> 00:48:02.361
In fact, you're not gonna get anywhere without them.

00:48:02.986 --> 00:48:03.286
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

00:48:03.931 --> 00:48:06.871
And I think that cognitive low theory I repeat talking about driving.

00:48:07.411 --> 00:48:10.981
We live in a suburb in a pretty protected area.

00:48:11.221 --> 00:48:15.091
And my daughter, I take my daughter out for her first driving lesson.

00:48:16.441 --> 00:48:20.161
So she's behind the wheel, she backs out, she comes to the first intersection.

00:48:20.641 --> 00:48:28.741
And because we're in a fairly isolated area, four corners, no stop signs.

00:48:29.641 --> 00:48:31.081
She says, what do I do?

00:48:31.426 --> 00:48:32.206
Robert Pondisicio: What do I do now?

00:48:32.431 --> 00:48:33.781
Gene Tavernetti: What do I do now?

00:48:33.871 --> 00:48:35.971
And I said, we'll talk about it later.

00:48:36.151 --> 00:48:40.261
And that's when I decided, honey, we're only doing right turns today.

00:48:41.101 --> 00:48:42.001
That's all we're gonna do.

00:48:42.661 --> 00:48:43.561
That's all we're gonna do.

00:48:43.996 --> 00:48:45.301
Robert Pondisicio: Somewhere Zig smiles.

00:48:45.801 --> 00:48:46.971
Gene Tavernetti: How can you.

00:48:47.471 --> 00:48:49.481
And it's the expert novice thing too.

00:48:49.481 --> 00:48:54.991
You don't realize what's involved in all of these things that we're teaching kids and back off.

00:48:55.291 --> 00:48:55.801
Back off.

00:48:55.831 --> 00:48:56.311
I'm with you.

00:48:57.331 --> 00:48:58.351
Robert Pondisicio: No, that's a great insight.

00:48:58.351 --> 00:49:05.551
That's a really good insight because you, the story, the way I was describing it was, put yourself back in the position of being that terrified new driver.

00:49:05.711 --> 00:49:11.651
Now put yourself in the position of being the terrified parent in the passenger seat, and then suddenly you're gonna see the benefit of direct instruction.

00:49:11.906 --> 00:49:12.566
Gene Tavernetti: Yes.

00:49:12.566 --> 00:49:13.796
Yeah, absolutely.

00:49:14.006 --> 00:49:16.556
Robert, it has been an absolute pleasure.

00:49:16.736 --> 00:49:20.176
Thank you for doing this, and hopefully we'll run into you soon.

00:49:21.436 --> 00:49:22.006
Robert Pondisicio: I hope so.

00:49:22.006 --> 00:49:22.666
Thanks for having me.

00:49:25.285 --> 00:49:27.925
Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.

00:49:28.225 --> 00:49:33.795
Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

00:49:34.485 --> 00:49:44.565
You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.

00:49:44.975 --> 00:49:45.405
Tesscg.

00:49:46.395 --> 00:50:01.765
com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.