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Welcome to the Britther Renee Relates Podcast.
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I am your host, back here again, Brittany Therene, and I am so excited for you to meet today's guest.
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After researching him and going through all his work, I really just had one question.
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One question stayed on my mind.
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And that was, what if success isn't supposed to feel exhausting?
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You know, he really made me ask myself that question.
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Today's honored guest, who I cannot wait for you to meet, is Kurt Bush.
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And we're going to be unpacking what it really means to lead and live authentically, and why so many high achievers are quietly just searching for a better way.
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So, Kurt, welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast.
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Hey, Bernita, thanks for having me.
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Super pumped to be here with you.
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You're so welcome.
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We are so excited to have you here.
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You know, just in going through your work, it really excited me.
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It touched me.
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I felt some of my own story in it.
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And I think so many people are going to resonate with what you have to say today.
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But, you know, before I get too excited, I really want to know about you.
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Can you tell the people just a little bit about yourself?
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What's your mission?
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And just what does your work look like in today's space?
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Yeah, thanks for asking.
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Yeah, so I I call myself a leadership coach, and I use the word leadership pretty broadly.
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Um, I actually think everybody leads something.
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Uh no matter how small or how big, I think everybody leads something.
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We we would say a leader is just someone who has people that follow them.
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Uh it's that simple.
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So, so I really think I coach anybody that's looking to get unstuck.
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Uh the work that I do in my coaching practice with one of my best friends is we help people understand uh what it means to lead and live fully and to do that from a place of authenticity in in a way that uh that that leads to wholeness, meaning the opposite of exhaustion, the opposite of striving, uh, the opposite of kind of this hustle and grind that we kind of find ourselves in here in 2026.
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Um yeah, I do this work with all kinds of people, uh, pastors, nonprofit executive uh uh directors, uh CEOs, a whole spectrum of people, again, just trying to get unstuck and trying to find a different way to be.
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Love it.
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And one of the things I love that you said is that we're all leaders in our own way.
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So you don't have to be a CEO.
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You don't have to be in management necessarily.
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You could be, you know, I'm a housewife.
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I leave my house, right?
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So I could sign up and get your coaching.
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So I love that, you know, it's an everybody type of a program.
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And we're gonna dive even deeper into that.
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But I'd like to know how in the world you got on this path because your early careers, you were worked in manufacturing, right?
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Yeah, I was in manufacturing for about 10 years.
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Um, I kind of stumbled into a manufacturing company, did a lot of different things, but most of my time there I spent in HR.
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Okay.
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Um, I did recruiting for the entire plant, for labor for the entire plant, a plant about 300 employees.
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Um, so I spent a lot of time learning uh, you know, what it what it means to recruit, what it means to kind of build a workforce.
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Um, I also did some work as a production supervisor, uh, leading a team of people that uh that operated a process within the plant.
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Um, I I loved it.
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I mean, I loved that time.
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Uh I still look back with fond memories.
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I mean, I look back with some, you know, if I knew now, or if I knew then what I know now, I I could be more effective.
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But I really enjoyed that time.
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Uh and then and then I I went to seminary.
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Uh no, wait, wait, wait.
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Okay.
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So that's a big leap.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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How do you go from working in HR in manufacturing to deciding you wanted to go to something that you always wanted to do?
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No.
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No.
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I actually didn't want to for a long time.
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Uh so uh on the on the back side, I was I was working in this manufacturing plant.
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My my wife and I got involved in a church plant uh shortly after we got married, uh and and just kind of like dove in with both feet, uh, volunteered in a lot of places.
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Uh I found myself in some volunteer leadership roles.
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And I had a couple of really good mentors that identified some things in me and helped me see some things in me.
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Uh and and kind of they planted some seeds around seminary, and I thought, no way, I'm definitely not doing that.
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Um, that's dumb.
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Uh so I fought that for a while.
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Uh, I actually kind of put that off for for a good number of years.
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Uh and then just a series of events and some more seeds planted, I just I couldn't ignore anymore, uh, and jumped into that about 10 years into my career.
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Wow.
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So you go to seminary just as a wife, okay?
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What does your wife say when you come home and say, I want to go to seminary?
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Well, it's so funny.
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Um, I actually told her and she said, Well, of course you are gonna go to seminary.
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Uh she saw it in me.
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Uh-huh.
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Um, I resisted.
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She kind of nudged me and helped me get there.
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Uh, you know, like life stage at the time, you know, I worked for this manufacturing company.
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My wife was an RN at the time.
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So even just financially, it worked, you know, she was in a place where this made sense.
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Um, but yeah, she saw it way before I did.
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And she was encouraging before I was wild years in our lives together with with our kids too, and wouldn't trade them, wouldn't trade them for the world.
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Wow.
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So she's working as an RN full-time.
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You're going to seminary, you have a family.
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And so get out of seminary, and then you're saying, I want to do what with myself?
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What did that next career step look like for you?
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Um, I didn't know this at the time, but I can look back now and see, like, I just thought a natural progression was I'm going to pastor a local church.
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Um, I don't know that that was always the best fit uh for me.
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I think it's probably what I needed, but I don't know that I would do that again.
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Uh, so I I spent a couple of years as an associate pastor of a church.
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Uh, and then we relocated across the state uh to do some really cool, exciting kind of multiplication things for another church.
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Um, and then I spent about five years doing that.
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So nearly another decade uh serving the local church after manufacturing and before coaching.
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But yeah, again, just really formative times for me, really times I'm grateful for.
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So good.
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And it's so interesting because today I was just um doing some study and afterwards I was listening to Christine Kane, who I absolutely love.
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But yeah, she's great.
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She's great.
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And one of the things that she talked about was the defining time in your life where you are just committed to serving.
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And she gave so many biblical examples of how important it is to really just be in a place of, you know, serving.
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I think that in the generation where everything comes easy, like microwaves and internet and everything's fast.
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And if it's not fast, there's a problem.
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The assumption is that you automatically are just in the spotlight, right?
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That's the path is to the spotlight.
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But I think it's very important that when you're telling your journey, you are mentioning how important, how formative it was for you to spend this time just serving.
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Here you are in a career teaching people how to be better leaders, right?
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But you spent so much of your own career serving.
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And I think that to be a good leader, you have to be comfortable with serving others.
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So that that's very interesting to me.
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I I love when I when my day I kind of see trends in my day, I love it.
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And so you spent time, like I mentioned, you're really just serving during this time.
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What shifted?
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What changed and made you say, I want to get into this role of helping people become better leaders?
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Yeah, thanks, thanks for asking.
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Um so so January 1st of 2020, uh, which I don't know if you remember 2020, Bernita, but it was wild.
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Uh so January 1st of 2020, I started a role as a campus pastor of a second campus of a large church.
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So uh a large church uh partnered with a a neighboring community church that was dying, and they let that church die.
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And then in its place, we launched a second campus of a church.
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Uh, and that was, I mean, really intriguing to me.
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It was really exciting.
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Um, it was very hard.
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And we launched it January 1st of 2020, uh, which is the worst time to launch a new campus of a church.
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So, in that process, I learned that one thing that I loved was helping leaders navigate their own anxiety, navigate the things that kept them from showing up well.
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So we were doing this hard thing as a second campus where it's already filled with anxiety.
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Old is gone, new is coming in.
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We're already having to build new culture.
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And then you add in a pandemic.
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Uh and then in 2021, there was this huge kind of denominational implosion, if you will.
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Uh, and we navigated that.
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And what I realized was even more than leading an organization, I loved being in a room with volunteer leaders who were just like vibrating with anxiety.
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I loved the challenge of helping them think and see clearly and make decisions from their best thinking.
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And what happened was I'm learning this about myself.
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And then over time, the culture is changing and growing and becoming more solidified.
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Uh, and I was getting to coach less.
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I was getting to do less of this work with leaders because they they were growing themselves.
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Okay.
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They were coaching themselves, they were living into the culture that we were really trying to build.
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And I found my role shifting to one that needed to be an organizational leader and not so much a coach leader.
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And I needed to coach.
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Um, I I am not a great organizational leader.
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I'm not a great kind of vision caster.
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And here, let's go towards this same direct.
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That's not so much who I am.
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Uh so I just started to find more and more opportunities to coach leaders.
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And and that slowly then became the realization that it's time to step away from the local church in this capacity and invest time in a coaching practice.
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Wow, that's so interesting.
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I love how creative God is, right?
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He'll he will just do some things that we could not do ourselves.
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Yeah.
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You actually found that you had what I think is a gift.
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You found a gift, a calling on your life that was very specific, right?
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And that is to lead, to coach, to help leaders.
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So can you tell me what the evolution of this coaching practice looked like?
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Yeah, for sure.
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So I co-founded this with my friend, my friend Chris.
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He's one of my best friends.
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Uh, we went to seminary together, and we would coach together, but separately, is what we like to say, for years before we ever launched a practice together.
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Uh, we have some friends who have some coaching processes that we've kind of helped coach other people through before.
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Um, and and that's kind of where it started.
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Chris and I would lean in and sort of facilitate some processes with our friends.
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Uh, it's it's a process called faith walking.
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I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but uh, we love it.
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Still to this day, we love it.
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Uh, so we would jump in and facilitate 10-week modules around emotional maturity and personal growth and self-awareness.
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Uh, and and that was sort of how we dipped our toes in to say, you know, can we do this work outside of the church?
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Okay.
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Um, you know, inside the church, obviously, like I I really think a pastor's role includes this sort of coaching and being the the least anxious presence in the room.
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Um, I think that's all part of pastoring, but we kind of found places to dip our toes in other places to see if, you know, in your words, to see if the gifting and the calling was was actually what we what we thought it was.
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So you got an opportunity to do this and you determine that, hey, this is a real viable thing.
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You know, one of the things that I love about doing this podcast and talking to so many incredible people is the listeners get a little taste of all that amazing people like yourself are doing.
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So can you share a little bit with our listeners a taste of what they could expect or experience or some of the practices that you teach?
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Yeah, for sure.
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Uh, you know, one of the biggest philosophies that we hold, or one of the clearest philosophies we hold, is that the greatest leverage for change in any system, because we live, we live in systems.
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Every everything we do is part of a system, family system, work system.
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The biggest leverage for change in that system is me.
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Uh, that if I want my system to change, the only piece of that I can I can like actually transform is me.
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Uh so our coaching really is based on how do how do I do the work in me that that brings transformation so that then the system can transform.
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Uh I think so often, myself included, so often we we think about our systems or our families or our workplaces, and we think if I can only get those people to behave differently, then my life would be so much better.
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Yeah.
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Well, guess what, Bernita?
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It doesn't work like that.
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Yeah, it doesn't work like that.
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Yeah.
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Uh so I think that's kind of the the thing that we hold most dear is that the work we do is uh for ourselves to grow and transform ourselves.
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Um, not like how do I get other people to think like me or how do I get other people to change?
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Uh that's a a fool's errand, if you will.
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Yeah.
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Wow, it's so good.
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And it's such a, I think, a misconception.
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At first glance, you hear somebody talking about being a leader and I'm doing leadership coaching and helping you be a better leader.
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And, you know, I would think, well, that's all about changing people, affecting people, how I can impart myself on other people.
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But what you're saying is to be the most effective leader, it starts with then.
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It starts with looking at yourself and seeing what you can do different, how you can behave different, and then therefore change your environment.
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It's practical, amazing wisdom is really what it is.
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It's wisdom.
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I I think so.
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You know, I had a good coach years ago.
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And one of the things my good coach asked me right away uh was during a conversation where I called him and I was like venting about a group I was trying to lead.
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And like I hadn't done any of my own work.
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So I'm like, you would never believe these people, you know, and like telling him how bad these people were and how I was having a hard time getting them to do things.
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And he, like a good coach, listened really well and then gently asked the question, What part do you play in this?
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And I it's so hard.
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And my response, in my internal response, was like, Shut up.
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I just told you.
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Yeah, I don't play.
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Nothing.
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Yes.
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Uh and and I think that was that was such a change for me to think that I do play a part.
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And my part is the only part that I can control or change.
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It's it's really eye-opening.
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It's one of those things I can say for the last couple of years that I've myself have been really working on the ideas that I have formed, the blueprints that I expect from other people.
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I want my brother, my mother, my sister, my father, my I want all these people to behave this way and be in these moles and my coworkers, whomever.
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I'm like, this is how I expect you to behave.
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And so I've got this blueprint of how I want people to behave.
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Yeah.
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And it's very frustrating when you finally get to the point and you realize, like, listen, people don't come in moles.
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You can't just make people be who you want them to be.
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What you can do is be that.
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If there's certain things you aspire in other people, you be that.
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Yeah.
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Maybe they mimic you, maybe they don't.
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Yeah.
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But you be the best version of your own self.
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I took so much stress off of myself trying to figure out how I can fix, how I can change other people, versus being like, uh, you know, you're not perfect.
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Now, it took the Lord to tell me that because I wouldn't try to hear from people.
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I'm not, I wasn't as wise as you heard it from a mentor and you were kind of like, hmm.
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No, it took the Lord himself to be like Bernita.
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:56.399
No.
00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:56.799
Uh-uh.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:57.600
Yeah.
00:16:58.480 --> 00:16:58.720
Yeah.
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:02.960
It's it's a hard, it's a hard lesson to learn.
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.839
But I believe that when you learn a lesson, you ought to learn it well.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:06.240
Yeah.
00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:06.720
You know what?
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.000
The illustration we like to use is Thanksgiving dinner.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.039
You know, everybody has an Aunt Edna that sits at the table.
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:21.359
And if you have an Aunt Edna, I'm sorry, this is not a real Aunt Edna, but you know, everybody has an aunt that sits at the Thanksgiving table and like spouts things off.
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:23.680
And you're like, Aunt Edna, would you like stop?
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:24.079
Yeah.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:30.960
Uh, you know, and and we like to say, how do you want to show up at that Thanksgiving table if Aunt Edna never changes?
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:31.519
Right?
00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:33.039
Like, that's how we think about this.
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:43.759
Or in the boardroom, you know, that there's always somebody in a boardroom or in a conference room or wherever it's at, there's always somebody that's like trying to one-up somebody, or there's always somebody that tries to withdraw in.
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:50.000
Our question is always, how do you want to be in that space when that other person is doing what they do?
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:57.680
Because they're probably always gonna do what they do unless they, unless they have one of these moments you're talking about where the Lord says, Hey, you gotta you gotta change this.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.559
How do you want to be regardless of how other people are gonna be?
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:01.359
That's so good.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:02.400
How you gonna show up?
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:02.799
Yeah.
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:03.279
Yeah.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:11.359
And so people are coming into your program and you're really helping them see themselves in a better way.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:25.599
Um, so can you tell us a little bit about you don't have to give any names, but maybe an example of someone who they went through one of your courses or one of your program and what it looked like after versus before?
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:26.400
For sure.
00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.200
We say transformation is possible for everybody.
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.400
And we say transformation is also long and difficult.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:35.599
Uh, but but I have a client, he's a pastor.
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:37.519
We have a lot of pastor clients naturally.
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.880
My business partner, Chris, he's pastoring in church right now, full time.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:45.680
So we like we know the language, we know, we know the reality that pastors go through.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:52.720
So one of my pastor clients uh came on a Zoom a couple weeks ago and he like looked into the Zoom camera.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:03.680
We'd been having a bunch of like self-awareness conversations, and he said, Kurt, I I think I put my self-worth too closely, or I attach it too closely to my performance.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.559
And he said, Is it possible that I've done this for 40 years?
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:12.160
And I inside I'm like, I've seen this.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:14.799
Yeah, I'm like, yes, I'm celebrating.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.680
Yeah, not because he's done this, but because he sees it.
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:24.319
Uh and for him, like, I'm not outwardly celebrating because for him, this is a huge revelation.
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.160
It's a jarring revelation.
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.400
Uh, but what we always say is once you see something, now you get to do something about it.
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:37.279
So I've gotten to see this person do the continuing work to say, what does that mean?
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:37.759
Right?
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.440
Like, where does this manifest?
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.759
And what do I want to attach my value to?
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:48.400
Or how do I want to measure uh what good looks like in my career uh or what good performance looks like.
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:56.880
So we've spent some time in the last couple of sessions where we outline some metrics and say, here is what we can measure, or you know, he'll say, Here's what I want to measure.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:04.160
Uh, and then we can start putting some meat to that that actually practically detaches uh performance from self-worth.
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:07.359
So you said he came to that realization on his own.
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:15.920
So it's not like you were telling him, these are the things that I see, Pastor, through your program, he was able to figure that out himself.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:17.440
How in the world did that happen?
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.319
I'm glad you asked because this is an important distinction.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:27.200
Uh, you know, some coaches uh will take the approach of, like, hey, we're gonna tell you what you should do, how you should do it.
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:36.079
Our coaching philosophy says that that all of our solutions, my solution to get unstuck, your solution, they're already inside of us.
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:42.720
Um, and my job as a coach is to ask the right question at the right time to help this person see it.
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:43.200
Okay.
00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:55.920
Um, that there's something important in the self-awareness uh that I might be able to tell this person, here's what I see, but there's something important about finding it and mining it and seeing it for themselves.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:59.039
So we help walk through a process with people.
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.640
Uh, part of the process is to identify what we call protective promises.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:11.920
We would say a protective promise is something that we make to ourselves, a promise we make to ourselves when we're younger, uh, based on a little tea trauma.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:17.440
Uh, like little tea trauma meaning like a time where we were embarrassed or a time where we were disappointed.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:22.079
And we make this promise to where we say, I'm never gonna let that happen to me again.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.000
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:32.720
So he uncovered this in a process of looking at a protective promise uh that he that he subconsciously made to a younger version of himself.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:40.160
And that sort of revelation came up from this experience that caused him to attach self-worth to performance.
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:40.799
Okay.
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:49.440
Essentially, you're asking really good questions of the individual to help them sort of uncover some things on their own.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:57.039
I liked the idea of that as well because, you know, especially people who are leaders, natural born leaders, they don't want to be told.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.759
They want to be able to discover things from themselves.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:11.039
So I think even in that, um, that will do a lot for people to just ask the right questions of yourself or have someone ask the right questions.
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:15.359
So then you can start really thinking about, hmm, well, where did this come from?
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:18.880
The same is true on the back end with the now what, right?
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:20.799
Oh, yeah, now what.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:21.279
Yeah.
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:21.680
Yeah.
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:22.960
I pastor to church.
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:26.799
I can give him a now what, but I don't know that it's gonna work.
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:27.279
Right.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.119
I I think he's got the now what.
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:44.160
So the questions then become how do I help him get to a now what that he's going to own, that's going to be effective, that's gonna be meaningful, uh, that's gonna check all the boxes that he needs versus like my now what that is gonna be very different than his.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:46.079
That's so good.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:51.839
And such a good reason why I think that coaches are needed, in my opinion.
00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:56.640
You know, I'm no psychologist, but I've been in a lot of counts, like, okay, 20 years of therapy.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:08.799
But but you know, to me, the distinction and really where a coach can really help people in an area that can get missed in traditional therapy.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:16.319
Therapists, if they're really good, can help you get to an underlining reason of why you do what you do.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:16.880
Yeah.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:21.680
But the thing about a coach is they can help you with that now what?
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.480
And it's good to know why you keep making the same mistakes in relationships or whatever.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:27.759
You want to acknowledge that.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:35.680
But if you don't have a plan for what you're gonna do in the future, when you're tested again, when that comes up again, because it will it will.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:37.359
You're suffering.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.759
So I think that's an incredible uh thing that coaches provide.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:46.240
Um, that's just really needed in the marketplace, everywhere, not just in churches, everywhere.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:47.200
Yeah, preach pretty.
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:47.839
I'm with you.
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:48.559
I love it.
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:53.200
I want to talk more about practical wisdom, because I feel like that's what you're dropping on us today.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:54.880
Just a lot of practical wisdom.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:56.240
Tell us about your book.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:56.880
Yeah.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:02.400
So uh yeah, we wrote a book called Live Fully, Lead Authentically, and and it it captures for people.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:04.640
Well, uh, honestly, we just like to write.
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:08.960
So it kind of it started out as like, let's write a book together because we're friends.
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.480
With the power of friendship, we wrote a book.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:19.599
Uh, but we we really wanted to capture the things uh that we hold dear in our coaching practice.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:29.359
Um, we wanted to capture the philosophy, we wanted to capture some tools uh that that we use with all of our clients and sort of make them accessible to anybody who wants to pick up the book.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:36.720
Um we're biased, but there's no replacement for this, for conversation, for questions.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:43.680
Uh, and we think the some of the frameworks that we that we offer are still valuable uh even without this.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:53.759
So we capture all the protective promise material in there, uh, and then we capture other promises that we want to replace them with uh so that we can live into a new promise.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:25:06.720
Um one of the frameworks we're most proud of in the book is our transformational equation, uh, which is E encounter plus our reflection equals transformation.
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:11.839
We would say that transformation takes a long time and it's difficult.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:28.720
Uh, but we would say reflection, the practice of reflection is probably the closest thing to a silver bullet that I can offer people is when we have an encounter, when we have something that trips us up or triggers us or causes us to react in ways we don't prefer.
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:34.720
If we can reflect on those things in intentional ways, that's really the path towards transformation.
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:37.119
Um and we just want to capture things like that in the book.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:42.000
We wanted to kind of offer that to the world and put it out there and say, hey, here's who we are, here's what we do.
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.559
If it's valuable, please engage with it.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:52.160
When you look ahead, Kirk, how do you hope that your work changes people and how they're approaching their life and leadership?
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:53.440
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:26:04.160
And it is a big question, but honestly, Bernita, I mean, uh we uh Brimstone Coaching Group, like we're we're two people, but there's a lot of people doing this kind of work that we do, this sort of self-awareness.
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:09.039
And and we really do believe that this work of self-awareness is what changes the world.
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:17.519
Um, I don't think Kurt and Chris changes the world, but I I think higher level of self-awareness and getting clear on who and how we want to be is how the world changes.
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:20.160
And my goodness, does it not need it?
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:20.720
Right.
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.119
Um it's a weird time right now.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:24.079
It's a weird time.
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:24.880
We'll leave it at that.
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:26.960
It's a weird time in the world, weird time.
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:27.279
Yeah.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:38.400
So I I mean, we honestly believe that the work we're doing and the work others are doing, uh, that we would call friends and colleagues, we believe it changes the world one person at a time.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:40.480
So that's the big hairy dream.
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:56.400
But uh I think honestly, if I can boil it down, I I think what we hope for is that people we work with can begin to uh measure success differently, meaning measuring inputs versus outputs, measuring how we show up versus the results we get.
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:03.200
Um, and I think if we can start measuring how we show up as success, I think the other stuff comes.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.119
Uh I think the other kind of output measuring comes and happens.
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:13.039
Uh, I think when we're aligned with who and how we want to be, and if that's what we're measuring, we're gonna be successful.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:14.480
We're going to find results.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:19.519
We're going to find places where we can contribute in ways that are that are impactful and important.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:25.200
And set aside kind of this like grind hustle mentality and measure outputs if that if that makes sense to you.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:26.240
It makes sense.
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.000
And yeah, you're changing the world one person at a time.
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:36.559
It's incredible to see how can people connect with you, connect with your work, where can they go to find out more?
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:37.759
Yeah, good question.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:38.799
So we have a website.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.440
Our website is brimstonecoaching group.com.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:49.039
And Bernitha, because I think your audience probably has a spiritual lean, I feel like I need to say we are not like brimstone, like fire and brimstone.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.240
We're gonna like pound, pound the pulpits, if you will.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:52.720
Okay.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.079
Uh there's a species of butterfly called the brimstone butterfly.
00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:00.480
And the brimstone butterfly is the longest living of all butterflies.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:06.240
Uh, so we love the mental model and the metaphor of a butterfly being a transformed creature.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.039
They live their life as a transformed creature.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:10.880
Uh, and we hope the same for our clients.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:16.160
So brimstone is the longest living of all butterflies, and we wanted to capture that in in our name.
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:18.640
So brimstonecoaching group.com.
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:27.839
There are a number of ways to connect with either myself or Chris with a free call to see if our philosophy fits the person who feels stuck.
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.400
Sometimes it does, sometimes honestly it doesn't.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:31.519
And that's okay.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:33.759
So we offer that no obligation, free.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.160
Just let's talk, uh, let's figure some stuff out.
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:37.599
We also have a podcast.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.359
Our podcast is called Live Fully Lead Authentically, uh, as well.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:42.640
Same as the book.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.920
Um, again, just a glimpse into who we are and why we do what we do.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:47.839
Absolutely love it.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:51.200
Kurt, this has been phenomenal.
00:28:51.440 --> 00:29:01.200
I've enjoyed myself so much, and I've learned so much, and I'm so excited for folks to go out and get this book, to listen to your podcast, to go to your website.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:02.559
And we love free.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:03.839
You can't beat free.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.279
He's offering you a free introductory call.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.359
So please go to the website Brimstone Coaching.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:13.119
You can go there, find out more.
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:20.559
Before I let you go, I want to make sure to ask you do you have any final words, anything you want to leave our audience with today?
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:21.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:22.319
Thank you.
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:33.279
I think what I like to leave is um that that change is possible and it is possible to thrive, free from exhaustion, free from the the grind and the hustle and the striving.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.559
Um, it's possible and it's possible today.
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:37.279
Love it.
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.480
Thank you so much for being here on the Bernita Renee Relates Podcast.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.240
We can't wait to have you back again soon.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:43.599
Yeah, thanks so much.
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:44.720
You're so welcome.
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:45.519
Bye, guys.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:47.119
Thanks for joining us.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:51.599
Hey, beautiful people.
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:52.880
Bernitha here.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:04.640
If you're loving the conversations, there's so much more waiting for you at Bernita Renee Relates Podcast.com, where you can join our online community for daily inspiration and updates.
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:15.920
And be sure to scan the QR code below so you can follow me on Instagram at for Bernitha Renee Relates and on Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok at BernithaRene Relates.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:21.680
While you're at it, go ahead and like, subscribe, and share this podcast wherever you get your podcast.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.480
Thank you so much for listening.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:25.920
We love you for it.
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:27.519
We'll talk soon.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:35.039
What's been done is done again.
00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:16.079
Welcome to the Britther Renee Relates Podcast.
00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:22.079
I am your host, back here again, Brittany Therene, and I am so excited for you to meet today's guest.
00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:27.440
After researching him and going through all his work, I really just had one question.
00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:29.920
One question stayed on my mind.
00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:35.679
And that was, what if success isn't supposed to feel exhausting?
00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:39.119
You know, he really made me ask myself that question.
00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:44.079
Today's honored guest, who I cannot wait for you to meet, is Kurt Bush.
00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:54.479
And we're going to be unpacking what it really means to lead and live authentically, and why so many high achievers are quietly just searching for a better way.
00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:57.759
So, Kurt, welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast.
00:00:58.240 --> 00:00:59.600
Hey, Bernita, thanks for having me.
00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:00.719
Super pumped to be here with you.
00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:02.320
You're so welcome.
00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:04.560
We are so excited to have you here.
00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:09.519
You know, just in going through your work, it really excited me.
00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:10.560
It touched me.
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:12.879
I felt some of my own story in it.
00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:19.120
And I think so many people are going to resonate with what you have to say today.
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:23.920
But, you know, before I get too excited, I really want to know about you.
00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:27.040
Can you tell the people just a little bit about yourself?
00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:28.159
What's your mission?
00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:32.400
And just what does your work look like in today's space?
00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:34.079
Yeah, thanks for asking.
00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:39.840
Yeah, so I I call myself a leadership coach, and I use the word leadership pretty broadly.
00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:42.799
Um, I actually think everybody leads something.
00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:46.799
Uh no matter how small or how big, I think everybody leads something.
00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:50.239
We we would say a leader is just someone who has people that follow them.
00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:51.680
Uh it's that simple.
00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:55.840
So, so I really think I coach anybody that's looking to get unstuck.
00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:22.639
Uh the work that I do in my coaching practice with one of my best friends is we help people understand uh what it means to lead and live fully and to do that from a place of authenticity in in a way that uh that that leads to wholeness, meaning the opposite of exhaustion, the opposite of striving, uh, the opposite of kind of this hustle and grind that we kind of find ourselves in here in 2026.
00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:35.919
Um yeah, I do this work with all kinds of people, uh, pastors, nonprofit executive uh uh directors, uh CEOs, a whole spectrum of people, again, just trying to get unstuck and trying to find a different way to be.
00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:36.639
Love it.
00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:40.639
And one of the things I love that you said is that we're all leaders in our own way.
00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:43.120
So you don't have to be a CEO.
00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:45.840
You don't have to be in management necessarily.
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:47.599
You could be, you know, I'm a housewife.
00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:48.960
I leave my house, right?
00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:50.800
So I could sign up and get your coaching.
00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:55.199
So I love that, you know, it's an everybody type of a program.
00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.240
And we're gonna dive even deeper into that.
00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:05.919
But I'd like to know how in the world you got on this path because your early careers, you were worked in manufacturing, right?
00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.439
Yeah, I was in manufacturing for about 10 years.
00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:16.560
Um, I kind of stumbled into a manufacturing company, did a lot of different things, but most of my time there I spent in HR.
00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:17.039
Okay.
00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:23.199
Um, I did recruiting for the entire plant, for labor for the entire plant, a plant about 300 employees.
00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:29.759
Um, so I spent a lot of time learning uh, you know, what it what it means to recruit, what it means to kind of build a workforce.
00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:37.680
Um, I also did some work as a production supervisor, uh, leading a team of people that uh that operated a process within the plant.
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:39.120
Um, I I loved it.
00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:40.879
I mean, I loved that time.
00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.360
Uh I still look back with fond memories.
00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:49.280
I mean, I look back with some, you know, if I knew now, or if I knew then what I know now, I I could be more effective.
00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:51.599
But I really enjoyed that time.
00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.800
Uh and then and then I I went to seminary.
00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.039
Uh no, wait, wait, wait.
00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:57.520
Okay.
00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:00.240
So that's a big leap.
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:00.560
Yeah.
00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:00.879
Yeah.
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:01.120
Yeah.
00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:09.120
How do you go from working in HR in manufacturing to deciding you wanted to go to something that you always wanted to do?
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:09.680
No.
00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:10.479
No.
00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:13.039
I actually didn't want to for a long time.
00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:18.319
Uh so uh on the on the back side, I was I was working in this manufacturing plant.
00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:28.959
My my wife and I got involved in a church plant uh shortly after we got married, uh and and just kind of like dove in with both feet, uh, volunteered in a lot of places.
00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:32.160
Uh I found myself in some volunteer leadership roles.
00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:38.160
And I had a couple of really good mentors that identified some things in me and helped me see some things in me.
00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:44.800
Uh and and kind of they planted some seeds around seminary, and I thought, no way, I'm definitely not doing that.
00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:46.720
Um, that's dumb.
00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:50.000
Uh so I fought that for a while.
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:53.920
Uh, I actually kind of put that off for for a good number of years.
00:04:54.079 --> 00:05:03.680
Uh and then just a series of events and some more seeds planted, I just I couldn't ignore anymore, uh, and jumped into that about 10 years into my career.
00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:04.800
Wow.
00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:08.720
So you go to seminary just as a wife, okay?
00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.959
What does your wife say when you come home and say, I want to go to seminary?
00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:15.360
Well, it's so funny.
00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:21.120
Um, I actually told her and she said, Well, of course you are gonna go to seminary.
00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:23.519
Uh she saw it in me.
00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:24.000
Uh-huh.
00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:26.000
Um, I resisted.
00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.319
She kind of nudged me and helped me get there.
00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:33.040
Uh, you know, like life stage at the time, you know, I worked for this manufacturing company.
00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:34.720
My wife was an RN at the time.
00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:40.480
So even just financially, it worked, you know, she was in a place where this made sense.
00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.279
Um, but yeah, she saw it way before I did.
00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:51.759
And she was encouraging before I was wild years in our lives together with with our kids too, and wouldn't trade them, wouldn't trade them for the world.
00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:52.399
Wow.
00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:55.199
So she's working as an RN full-time.
00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:58.319
You're going to seminary, you have a family.
00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:04.079
And so get out of seminary, and then you're saying, I want to do what with myself?
00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:07.199
What did that next career step look like for you?
00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:14.480
Um, I didn't know this at the time, but I can look back now and see, like, I just thought a natural progression was I'm going to pastor a local church.
00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.839
Um, I don't know that that was always the best fit uh for me.
00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:21.439
I think it's probably what I needed, but I don't know that I would do that again.
00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:25.360
Uh, so I I spent a couple of years as an associate pastor of a church.
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:33.040
Uh, and then we relocated across the state uh to do some really cool, exciting kind of multiplication things for another church.
00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:35.680
Um, and then I spent about five years doing that.
00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:42.160
So nearly another decade uh serving the local church after manufacturing and before coaching.
00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:46.879
But yeah, again, just really formative times for me, really times I'm grateful for.
00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:47.680
So good.
00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:54.399
And it's so interesting because today I was just um doing some study and afterwards I was listening to Christine Kane, who I absolutely love.
00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:55.519
But yeah, she's great.
00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:56.480
She's great.
00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:04.399
And one of the things that she talked about was the defining time in your life where you are just committed to serving.
00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:13.439
And she gave so many biblical examples of how important it is to really just be in a place of, you know, serving.
00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:20.480
I think that in the generation where everything comes easy, like microwaves and internet and everything's fast.
00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:22.639
And if it's not fast, there's a problem.
00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:27.120
The assumption is that you automatically are just in the spotlight, right?
00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:29.279
That's the path is to the spotlight.
00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:41.360
But I think it's very important that when you're telling your journey, you are mentioning how important, how formative it was for you to spend this time just serving.
00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:47.680
Here you are in a career teaching people how to be better leaders, right?
00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:52.319
But you spent so much of your own career serving.
00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:57.519
And I think that to be a good leader, you have to be comfortable with serving others.
00:07:57.839 --> 00:07:59.920
So that that's very interesting to me.
00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:05.120
I I love when I when my day I kind of see trends in my day, I love it.
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:10.079
And so you spent time, like I mentioned, you're really just serving during this time.
00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:11.120
What shifted?
00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:16.800
What changed and made you say, I want to get into this role of helping people become better leaders?
00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:18.800
Yeah, thanks, thanks for asking.
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:27.279
Um so so January 1st of 2020, uh, which I don't know if you remember 2020, Bernita, but it was wild.
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:35.759
Uh so January 1st of 2020, I started a role as a campus pastor of a second campus of a large church.
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:45.039
So uh a large church uh partnered with a a neighboring community church that was dying, and they let that church die.
00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:49.919
And then in its place, we launched a second campus of a church.
00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:53.440
Uh, and that was, I mean, really intriguing to me.
00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:54.960
It was really exciting.
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:56.240
Um, it was very hard.
00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:03.679
And we launched it January 1st of 2020, uh, which is the worst time to launch a new campus of a church.
00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:14.639
So, in that process, I learned that one thing that I loved was helping leaders navigate their own anxiety, navigate the things that kept them from showing up well.
00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:20.559
So we were doing this hard thing as a second campus where it's already filled with anxiety.
00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.480
Old is gone, new is coming in.
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:24.320
We're already having to build new culture.
00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:27.200
And then you add in a pandemic.
00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:33.360
Uh and then in 2021, there was this huge kind of denominational implosion, if you will.
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:35.360
Uh, and we navigated that.
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:44.960
And what I realized was even more than leading an organization, I loved being in a room with volunteer leaders who were just like vibrating with anxiety.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:51.679
I loved the challenge of helping them think and see clearly and make decisions from their best thinking.
00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:56.080
And what happened was I'm learning this about myself.
00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:00.879
And then over time, the culture is changing and growing and becoming more solidified.
00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:03.200
Uh, and I was getting to coach less.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:08.320
I was getting to do less of this work with leaders because they they were growing themselves.
00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:08.799
Okay.
00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:13.919
They were coaching themselves, they were living into the culture that we were really trying to build.
00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:21.600
And I found my role shifting to one that needed to be an organizational leader and not so much a coach leader.
00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.000
And I needed to coach.
00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:27.440
Um, I I am not a great organizational leader.
00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:29.759
I'm not a great kind of vision caster.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.000
And here, let's go towards this same direct.
00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:33.840
That's not so much who I am.
00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:38.240
Uh so I just started to find more and more opportunities to coach leaders.
00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:47.919
And and that slowly then became the realization that it's time to step away from the local church in this capacity and invest time in a coaching practice.
00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:49.519
Wow, that's so interesting.
00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:51.679
I love how creative God is, right?
00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.799
He'll he will just do some things that we could not do ourselves.
00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:55.200
Yeah.
00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:59.519
You actually found that you had what I think is a gift.
00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:05.360
You found a gift, a calling on your life that was very specific, right?
00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:09.919
And that is to lead, to coach, to help leaders.
00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:14.960
So can you tell me what the evolution of this coaching practice looked like?
00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:16.720
Yeah, for sure.
00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:19.679
So I co-founded this with my friend, my friend Chris.
00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:20.960
He's one of my best friends.
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:31.279
Uh, we went to seminary together, and we would coach together, but separately, is what we like to say, for years before we ever launched a practice together.
00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:38.720
Uh, we have some friends who have some coaching processes that we've kind of helped coach other people through before.
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:40.799
Um, and and that's kind of where it started.
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:46.240
Chris and I would lean in and sort of facilitate some processes with our friends.
00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.320
Uh, it's it's a process called faith walking.
00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.960
I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but uh, we love it.
00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:52.879
Still to this day, we love it.
00:11:53.039 --> 00:12:01.039
Uh, so we would jump in and facilitate 10-week modules around emotional maturity and personal growth and self-awareness.
00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:07.360
Uh, and and that was sort of how we dipped our toes in to say, you know, can we do this work outside of the church?
00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:07.919
Okay.
00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:17.440
Um, you know, inside the church, obviously, like I I really think a pastor's role includes this sort of coaching and being the the least anxious presence in the room.
00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:29.519
Um, I think that's all part of pastoring, but we kind of found places to dip our toes in other places to see if, you know, in your words, to see if the gifting and the calling was was actually what we what we thought it was.
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:35.279
So you got an opportunity to do this and you determine that, hey, this is a real viable thing.
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:49.759
You know, one of the things that I love about doing this podcast and talking to so many incredible people is the listeners get a little taste of all that amazing people like yourself are doing.
00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:59.360
So can you share a little bit with our listeners a taste of what they could expect or experience or some of the practices that you teach?
00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:00.720
Yeah, for sure.
00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:10.000
Uh, you know, one of the biggest philosophies that we hold, or one of the clearest philosophies we hold, is that the greatest leverage for change in any system, because we live, we live in systems.
00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:13.759
Every everything we do is part of a system, family system, work system.
00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:17.120
The biggest leverage for change in that system is me.
00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:25.919
Uh, that if I want my system to change, the only piece of that I can I can like actually transform is me.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:36.240
Uh so our coaching really is based on how do how do I do the work in me that that brings transformation so that then the system can transform.
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:50.159
Uh I think so often, myself included, so often we we think about our systems or our families or our workplaces, and we think if I can only get those people to behave differently, then my life would be so much better.
00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:50.480
Yeah.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:52.080
Well, guess what, Bernita?
00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:53.840
It doesn't work like that.
00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:55.120
Yeah, it doesn't work like that.
00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:55.679
Yeah.
00:13:55.919 --> 00:14:05.679
Uh so I think that's kind of the the thing that we hold most dear is that the work we do is uh for ourselves to grow and transform ourselves.
00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:11.360
Um, not like how do I get other people to think like me or how do I get other people to change?
00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.240
Uh that's a a fool's errand, if you will.
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:14.879
Yeah.
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:16.399
Wow, it's so good.
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:19.279
And it's such a, I think, a misconception.
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:25.600
At first glance, you hear somebody talking about being a leader and I'm doing leadership coaching and helping you be a better leader.
00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:33.279
And, you know, I would think, well, that's all about changing people, affecting people, how I can impart myself on other people.
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:39.519
But what you're saying is to be the most effective leader, it starts with then.
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:46.159
It starts with looking at yourself and seeing what you can do different, how you can behave different, and then therefore change your environment.
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:50.320
It's practical, amazing wisdom is really what it is.
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:51.200
It's wisdom.
00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:52.399
I I think so.
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:54.559
You know, I had a good coach years ago.
00:14:54.639 --> 00:15:02.720
And one of the things my good coach asked me right away uh was during a conversation where I called him and I was like venting about a group I was trying to lead.
00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.039
And like I hadn't done any of my own work.
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:13.600
So I'm like, you would never believe these people, you know, and like telling him how bad these people were and how I was having a hard time getting them to do things.
00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:21.600
And he, like a good coach, listened really well and then gently asked the question, What part do you play in this?
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:23.679
And I it's so hard.
00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:26.480
And my response, in my internal response, was like, Shut up.
00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:27.200
I just told you.
00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:28.080
Yeah, I don't play.
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:29.440
Nothing.
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:30.480
Yes.
00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:36.240
Uh and and I think that was that was such a change for me to think that I do play a part.
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:40.399
And my part is the only part that I can control or change.
00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:42.240
It's it's really eye-opening.
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:53.279
It's one of those things I can say for the last couple of years that I've myself have been really working on the ideas that I have formed, the blueprints that I expect from other people.
00:15:53.519 --> 00:16:02.240
I want my brother, my mother, my sister, my father, my I want all these people to behave this way and be in these moles and my coworkers, whomever.
00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:04.639
I'm like, this is how I expect you to behave.
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:08.480
And so I've got this blueprint of how I want people to behave.
00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:09.039
Yeah.
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:15.519
And it's very frustrating when you finally get to the point and you realize, like, listen, people don't come in moles.
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.720
You can't just make people be who you want them to be.
00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:20.559
What you can do is be that.
00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:24.799
If there's certain things you aspire in other people, you be that.
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:25.279
Yeah.
00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.159
Maybe they mimic you, maybe they don't.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:28.639
Yeah.
00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.399
But you be the best version of your own self.
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:44.639
I took so much stress off of myself trying to figure out how I can fix, how I can change other people, versus being like, uh, you know, you're not perfect.
00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.159
Now, it took the Lord to tell me that because I wouldn't try to hear from people.
00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:53.279
I'm not, I wasn't as wise as you heard it from a mentor and you were kind of like, hmm.
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:55.840
No, it took the Lord himself to be like Bernita.
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:56.399
No.
00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:56.799
Uh-uh.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:57.600
Yeah.
00:16:58.480 --> 00:16:58.720
Yeah.
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:02.960
It's it's a hard, it's a hard lesson to learn.
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.839
But I believe that when you learn a lesson, you ought to learn it well.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:06.240
Yeah.
00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:06.720
You know what?
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.000
The illustration we like to use is Thanksgiving dinner.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.039
You know, everybody has an Aunt Edna that sits at the table.
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:21.359
And if you have an Aunt Edna, I'm sorry, this is not a real Aunt Edna, but you know, everybody has an aunt that sits at the Thanksgiving table and like spouts things off.
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:23.680
And you're like, Aunt Edna, would you like stop?
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:24.079
Yeah.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:30.960
Uh, you know, and and we like to say, how do you want to show up at that Thanksgiving table if Aunt Edna never changes?
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:31.519
Right?
00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:33.039
Like, that's how we think about this.
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:43.759
Or in the boardroom, you know, that there's always somebody in a boardroom or in a conference room or wherever it's at, there's always somebody that's like trying to one-up somebody, or there's always somebody that tries to withdraw in.
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:50.000
Our question is always, how do you want to be in that space when that other person is doing what they do?
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:57.680
Because they're probably always gonna do what they do unless they, unless they have one of these moments you're talking about where the Lord says, Hey, you gotta you gotta change this.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.559
How do you want to be regardless of how other people are gonna be?
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:01.359
That's so good.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:02.400
How you gonna show up?
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:02.799
Yeah.
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:03.279
Yeah.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:11.359
And so people are coming into your program and you're really helping them see themselves in a better way.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:25.599
Um, so can you tell us a little bit about you don't have to give any names, but maybe an example of someone who they went through one of your courses or one of your program and what it looked like after versus before?
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:26.400
For sure.
00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.200
We say transformation is possible for everybody.
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.400
And we say transformation is also long and difficult.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:35.599
Uh, but but I have a client, he's a pastor.
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:37.519
We have a lot of pastor clients naturally.
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.880
My business partner, Chris, he's pastoring in church right now, full time.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:45.680
So we like we know the language, we know, we know the reality that pastors go through.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:52.720
So one of my pastor clients uh came on a Zoom a couple weeks ago and he like looked into the Zoom camera.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:03.680
We'd been having a bunch of like self-awareness conversations, and he said, Kurt, I I think I put my self-worth too closely, or I attach it too closely to my performance.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.559
And he said, Is it possible that I've done this for 40 years?
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:12.160
And I inside I'm like, I've seen this.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:14.799
Yeah, I'm like, yes, I'm celebrating.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.680
Yeah, not because he's done this, but because he sees it.
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:24.319
Uh and for him, like, I'm not outwardly celebrating because for him, this is a huge revelation.
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.160
It's a jarring revelation.
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.400
Uh, but what we always say is once you see something, now you get to do something about it.
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:37.279
So I've gotten to see this person do the continuing work to say, what does that mean?
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:37.759
Right?
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.440
Like, where does this manifest?
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.759
And what do I want to attach my value to?
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:48.400
Or how do I want to measure uh what good looks like in my career uh or what good performance looks like.
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:56.880
So we've spent some time in the last couple of sessions where we outline some metrics and say, here is what we can measure, or you know, he'll say, Here's what I want to measure.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:04.160
Uh, and then we can start putting some meat to that that actually practically detaches uh performance from self-worth.
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:07.359
So you said he came to that realization on his own.
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:15.920
So it's not like you were telling him, these are the things that I see, Pastor, through your program, he was able to figure that out himself.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:17.440
How in the world did that happen?
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.319
I'm glad you asked because this is an important distinction.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:27.200
Uh, you know, some coaches uh will take the approach of, like, hey, we're gonna tell you what you should do, how you should do it.
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:36.079
Our coaching philosophy says that that all of our solutions, my solution to get unstuck, your solution, they're already inside of us.
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:42.720
Um, and my job as a coach is to ask the right question at the right time to help this person see it.
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:43.200
Okay.
00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:55.920
Um, that there's something important in the self-awareness uh that I might be able to tell this person, here's what I see, but there's something important about finding it and mining it and seeing it for themselves.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:59.039
So we help walk through a process with people.
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.640
Uh, part of the process is to identify what we call protective promises.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:11.920
We would say a protective promise is something that we make to ourselves, a promise we make to ourselves when we're younger, uh, based on a little tea trauma.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:17.440
Uh, like little tea trauma meaning like a time where we were embarrassed or a time where we were disappointed.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:22.079
And we make this promise to where we say, I'm never gonna let that happen to me again.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.000
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:32.720
So he uncovered this in a process of looking at a protective promise uh that he that he subconsciously made to a younger version of himself.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:40.160
And that sort of revelation came up from this experience that caused him to attach self-worth to performance.
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:40.799
Okay.
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:49.440
Essentially, you're asking really good questions of the individual to help them sort of uncover some things on their own.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:57.039
I liked the idea of that as well because, you know, especially people who are leaders, natural born leaders, they don't want to be told.
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.759
They want to be able to discover things from themselves.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:11.039
So I think even in that, um, that will do a lot for people to just ask the right questions of yourself or have someone ask the right questions.
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:15.359
So then you can start really thinking about, hmm, well, where did this come from?
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:18.880
The same is true on the back end with the now what, right?
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:20.799
Oh, yeah, now what.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:21.279
Yeah.
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:21.680
Yeah.
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:22.960
I pastor to church.
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:26.799
I can give him a now what, but I don't know that it's gonna work.
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:27.279
Right.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.119
I I think he's got the now what.
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:44.160
So the questions then become how do I help him get to a now what that he's going to own, that's going to be effective, that's gonna be meaningful, uh, that's gonna check all the boxes that he needs versus like my now what that is gonna be very different than his.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:46.079
That's so good.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:51.839
And such a good reason why I think that coaches are needed, in my opinion.
00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:56.640
You know, I'm no psychologist, but I've been in a lot of counts, like, okay, 20 years of therapy.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:08.799
But but you know, to me, the distinction and really where a coach can really help people in an area that can get missed in traditional therapy.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:16.319
Therapists, if they're really good, can help you get to an underlining reason of why you do what you do.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:16.880
Yeah.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:21.680
But the thing about a coach is they can help you with that now what?
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.480
And it's good to know why you keep making the same mistakes in relationships or whatever.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:27.759
You want to acknowledge that.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:35.680
But if you don't have a plan for what you're gonna do in the future, when you're tested again, when that comes up again, because it will it will.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:37.359
You're suffering.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.759
So I think that's an incredible uh thing that coaches provide.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:46.240
Um, that's just really needed in the marketplace, everywhere, not just in churches, everywhere.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:47.200
Yeah, preach pretty.
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:47.839
I'm with you.
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:48.559
I love it.
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:53.200
I want to talk more about practical wisdom, because I feel like that's what you're dropping on us today.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:54.880
Just a lot of practical wisdom.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:56.240
Tell us about your book.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:56.880
Yeah.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:02.400
So uh yeah, we wrote a book called Live Fully, Lead Authentically, and and it it captures for people.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:04.640
Well, uh, honestly, we just like to write.
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:08.960
So it kind of it started out as like, let's write a book together because we're friends.
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.480
With the power of friendship, we wrote a book.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:19.599
Uh, but we we really wanted to capture the things uh that we hold dear in our coaching practice.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:29.359
Um, we wanted to capture the philosophy, we wanted to capture some tools uh that that we use with all of our clients and sort of make them accessible to anybody who wants to pick up the book.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:36.720
Um we're biased, but there's no replacement for this, for conversation, for questions.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:43.680
Uh, and we think the some of the frameworks that we that we offer are still valuable uh even without this.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:53.759
So we capture all the protective promise material in there, uh, and then we capture other promises that we want to replace them with uh so that we can live into a new promise.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:25:06.720
Um one of the frameworks we're most proud of in the book is our transformational equation, uh, which is E encounter plus our reflection equals transformation.
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:11.839
We would say that transformation takes a long time and it's difficult.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:28.720
Uh, but we would say reflection, the practice of reflection is probably the closest thing to a silver bullet that I can offer people is when we have an encounter, when we have something that trips us up or triggers us or causes us to react in ways we don't prefer.
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:34.720
If we can reflect on those things in intentional ways, that's really the path towards transformation.
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:37.119
Um and we just want to capture things like that in the book.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:42.000
We wanted to kind of offer that to the world and put it out there and say, hey, here's who we are, here's what we do.
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.559
If it's valuable, please engage with it.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:52.160
When you look ahead, Kirk, how do you hope that your work changes people and how they're approaching their life and leadership?
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:53.440
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:26:04.160
And it is a big question, but honestly, Bernita, I mean, uh we uh Brimstone Coaching Group, like we're we're two people, but there's a lot of people doing this kind of work that we do, this sort of self-awareness.
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:09.039
And and we really do believe that this work of self-awareness is what changes the world.
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:17.519
Um, I don't think Kurt and Chris changes the world, but I I think higher level of self-awareness and getting clear on who and how we want to be is how the world changes.
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:20.160
And my goodness, does it not need it?
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:20.720
Right.
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.119
Um it's a weird time right now.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:24.079
It's a weird time.
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:24.880
We'll leave it at that.
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:26.960
It's a weird time in the world, weird time.
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:27.279
Yeah.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:38.400
So I I mean, we honestly believe that the work we're doing and the work others are doing, uh, that we would call friends and colleagues, we believe it changes the world one person at a time.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:40.480
So that's the big hairy dream.
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:56.400
But uh I think honestly, if I can boil it down, I I think what we hope for is that people we work with can begin to uh measure success differently, meaning measuring inputs versus outputs, measuring how we show up versus the results we get.
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:03.200
Um, and I think if we can start measuring how we show up as success, I think the other stuff comes.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.119
Uh I think the other kind of output measuring comes and happens.
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:13.039
Uh, I think when we're aligned with who and how we want to be, and if that's what we're measuring, we're gonna be successful.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:14.480
We're going to find results.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:19.519
We're going to find places where we can contribute in ways that are that are impactful and important.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:25.200
And set aside kind of this like grind hustle mentality and measure outputs if that if that makes sense to you.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:26.240
It makes sense.
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.000
And yeah, you're changing the world one person at a time.
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:36.559
It's incredible to see how can people connect with you, connect with your work, where can they go to find out more?
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:37.759
Yeah, good question.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:38.799
So we have a website.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.440
Our website is brimstonecoaching group.com.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:49.039
And Bernitha, because I think your audience probably has a spiritual lean, I feel like I need to say we are not like brimstone, like fire and brimstone.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.240
We're gonna like pound, pound the pulpits, if you will.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:52.720
Okay.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.079
Uh there's a species of butterfly called the brimstone butterfly.
00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:00.480
And the brimstone butterfly is the longest living of all butterflies.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:06.240
Uh, so we love the mental model and the metaphor of a butterfly being a transformed creature.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.039
They live their life as a transformed creature.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:10.880
Uh, and we hope the same for our clients.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:16.160
So brimstone is the longest living of all butterflies, and we wanted to capture that in in our name.
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:18.640
So brimstonecoaching group.com.
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:27.839
There are a number of ways to connect with either myself or Chris with a free call to see if our philosophy fits the person who feels stuck.
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.400
Sometimes it does, sometimes honestly it doesn't.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:31.519
And that's okay.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:33.759
So we offer that no obligation, free.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.160
Just let's talk, uh, let's figure some stuff out.
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:37.599
We also have a podcast.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.359
Our podcast is called Live Fully Lead Authentically, uh, as well.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:42.640
Same as the book.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.920
Um, again, just a glimpse into who we are and why we do what we do.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:47.839
Absolutely love it.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:51.200
Kurt, this has been phenomenal.
00:28:51.440 --> 00:29:01.200
I've enjoyed myself so much, and I've learned so much, and I'm so excited for folks to go out and get this book, to listen to your podcast, to go to your website.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:02.559
And we love free.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:03.839
You can't beat free.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.279
He's offering you a free introductory call.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.359
So please go to the website Brimstone Coaching.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:13.119
You can go there, find out more.
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:20.559
Before I let you go, I want to make sure to ask you do you have any final words, anything you want to leave our audience with today?
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:21.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:22.319
Thank you.
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:33.279
I think what I like to leave is um that that change is possible and it is possible to thrive, free from exhaustion, free from the the grind and the hustle and the striving.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.559
Um, it's possible and it's possible today.
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:37.279
Love it.
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.480
Thank you so much for being here on the Bernita Renee Relates Podcast.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.240
We can't wait to have you back again soon.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:43.599
Yeah, thanks so much.
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:44.720
You're so welcome.
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:45.519
Bye, guys.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:47.119
Thanks for joining us.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:51.599
Hey, beautiful people.
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:52.880
Bernitha here.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:04.640
If you're loving the conversations, there's so much more waiting for you at Bernita Renee Relates Podcast.com, where you can join our online community for daily inspiration and updates.
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:15.920
And be sure to scan the QR code below so you can follow me on Instagram at for Bernitha Renee Relates and on Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok at BernithaRene Relates.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:21.680
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00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.480
Thank you so much for listening.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:25.920
We love you for it.
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:27.519
We'll talk soon.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:35.039
What's been done is done again.
