53. Bored Between Mountains with Pashmina Binwani

WEBVTT
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I didn't have a lot of savings, but
I think I was just sick and tired
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of, like, always having a backup
plan, and for once, I didn't want
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life to be very, very predictable.
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I think as long as you have a story to
tell, if there's a human voice behind it
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and people believe in your why, there's
always an opportunity to make it work.
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After a while, like, every mountain
looks the same, and I think for
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me, it's important to come back
to Malaysia to be bored for, like,
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few months, and then go again.
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Welcome to Before We Get There,
the podcast where we talk about
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the moments that shape us, the ones
we plan for and the ones we don't.
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I'm your host, Nicholas Braman, and
today, I'm joined by Pashmina Binwani.
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Pashmina is the Malaysian creator
and writer behind The Gone Goat.
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She didn't even learn how to cycle
or hike until her late 20s, then quit
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her corporate job with just 10,000
ringgit in the bank and spent three
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months alone trekking in the Himalayas.
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We talked about the kind of travel
she's built her work around, long
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journeys, bike or on foot, staying
with locals and finding the stories in
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places most people just pass through.
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We also talked about why being called
brave doesn't sit right with her.
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The brands whose first question
is whether she's even Malaysian.
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Why, after almost 10 years of
building a career on travel,
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she's starting to picture a future
with less of it and much more.
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Enjoy the show.
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Hi, Pashmina.
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So happy- Hello
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to have you today.
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Thank you for having me here.
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It's great to talk to you.
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I'm really excited to learn more about
you and all the adventures you've had.
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And what I thought I wanted to
start off with is you've shared how
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you kind of got the travel bug and
started- Mm-hmm … having adventures
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after maybe not having that many
experiences when you were younger.
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Mm-hmm.
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Um, so what was that first
travel experience like?
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And then how did you go from not having
been very well traveled to doing it-
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Right … full-time and doing it so much?
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Uh, okay.
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The, that's quite a loaded question.
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Mm-hmm.
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I think, uh, the biggest thing that
I, when I see my life looking back,
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is that I did not know how to cycle.
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I did not know swimming.
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I wasn't good in sports.
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I didn't really know how to hike,
or I didn't know what hiking was.
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It was only at 27 or 26 where I
discovered and I started taking these
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hobbies more seriously because before
that, like, um, you, you think you're
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either born with it or you don't.
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Like, you read a lot of these National
Geographic magazines, and you see people
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who are, like, in, in their 30s or in
their 20s, and you see that they have
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this kind of adventure spirit about
them, and they look really muscular, but
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you just don't think someone as skinny
and normal as me could ever do that.
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So going from that to, like, hiking in
the Himalayas alone for three months,
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to traveling overland in, to Iran and
cycling in Kyrgyzstan for 45 days, like,
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it's, it's a bit of a, of a different
change for, like, how a Malaysian girl
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like me could e- even dream of doing it.
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Yeah.
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And so what was it that got
you to go for the first time
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and tr- and try these things?
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Uh, so I think the reason for me
was that I had this corporate job.
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I was working and studying
since I was, like, 17 years old.
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And, uh, when you look at the predict-
predictability of this corporate life,
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you see that everyone has the same goals.
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Like, they're saving towards retirement.
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But you realize life is so short
Like, I lost my dad when I was 21,
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and, uh, you always think that, you
know, your parents are immortal,
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that they're always gonna be around.
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But, like, when that is taken away
from you, you realize that you
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really need to make things count.
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You need to make things work for you.
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And, um, even if it's your late 20s,
like, you have to do something about it.
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And, like, not knowing how to ride a bike
or not knowing how to hike, like, sounds
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really simple, but it was just, like, a
light bulb moment for me where, you know,
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I really need to, like, quit my job.
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Even though I only had, like, 10,000
ringgit in my account, like, I
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didn't have a lot of savings, but I
think I was just sick and tired of,
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like, always having a backup plan.
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And for once, I didn't want life
to be very, very predictable
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And so at, at that point, there
was, there was no backup plan?
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There was no backup plan.
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There was no jobs.
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Like, I think somewhere down the
line, I thought, like, maybe I would,
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like, go to Singapore, like what
everyone does, like earn in dollars.
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Um, but at the same time, I thought, like,
once you're stuck in this comfortable
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routine… Like, I read this book called
The Comfort Crisis by, uh, Michael Easter,
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where he says that, you know, if everyone
is so comfortable, like, we are always
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training our bodies to be comfortable.
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Like, that's what human beings strive for.
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No one strives for discomfort, right?
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But I wanted the opposite.
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I wanted to be as uncomfortable as
possible to see what skill sets I could
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learn and what else I could do with this
life, like, if there was an open slate.
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Although money is an important factor,
which is why I think I focus more on,
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like, Southeast Asian destinations
where, you know, you have the Himalayas,
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where I didn't have to spend a lot
of, of money, but I could, like,
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use that to be more purposeful.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And so I think, did you take your first
trips while you were still working
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before you, before you quit your job?
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Uh, I think I did, like,
really short trips, probably
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like seven days or two days.
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Uh, the max I went was two weeks to, like,
the Nepal, uh, to Nepal, to the Himalayas.
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But at the same time, I felt like it was
really, really limited because you can
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only do so much with a two-week itinerary.
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I feel like the best, the best,
um, meaningful moments that I had
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were in things that were so sudden.
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For example, like, when I was in
Iran, I learned about Zoroastrianism,
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uh, staying in a village where they
have, like, these sky, uh, burials.
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Uh, things which, you know,
you can't really fix it into,
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like, a two-week itinerary.
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It's more about your conversations
with the locals, learning about their
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way of life and learning also how,
like, people, uh, I mean, don't have
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as many opportunities as you have.
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But at the same time, like,
what if I could share a little
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bit of these stories in a blog?
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Which is, which is why I started it
after, like, doom scrolling Flipboard.
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I mean, those days, there was no…
Uh, 10 years ago, there was no…
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There was Instagram, but it was not
crazy like how we see the reels today.
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Mm-hmm.
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It was more, um- It was just photo-based
kind of- Right … inspiration.
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So I used Flipboard and I found,
like, how this engineer in the US
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started a food blog, and sh- it
replaced her income completely.
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So I think I was a little bit inspired
by that, where I just wanted to see where
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it goes with the whole blogging thing.
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I just wanted to see, like, what
could happen if you live life, like,
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on your own terms without actually
having to default to a corporate job.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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And it, and it's very, very hard
because, uh, I think Instagram
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Reels was not a thing then,
and writing was still very new.
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But it took me six months before
I could slowly monetize my blog
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and also get clients on the side.
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Oh, okay.
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Yeah.
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So you, you went and had the adventure for
three months, and then you, you came back.
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I came back.
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I started the blog.
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And again, I, uh, fled somewhere
because for some reason I, I thought
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like, oh, like, it would just be a
ga- another gap year, and I was really
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afraid of, like, um, not using this
time to travel to more destinations.
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And India felt pretty… I mean, it's
great, but it didn't feel like the biggest
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adventure that I thought I could, I could
write with and come up with more stories.
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So I worked on my blog at the,
at the same time I was trying to
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get clients and freelance a bit.
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And after that I went on an overland trip
and I book a one-way ticket to Iran, and
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from Iran I traveled overland to Europe.
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Wow.
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Yeah, for two and a half months,
mostly through hitchhiking and,
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um, and staying with locals.
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I spent about a month in Iran.
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And so when you first started doing
this, what, what were your friends
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and family and everybody saying?
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Did they encourage you?
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Did they try to get you
to- Yeah … stay home?
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I mean, um, a lot of them think
that you're either really brave
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or, you know, it's a phase where,
you know, it will just, like, max
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last like two, three years- Mm
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'cause there's kind of like a shelf
life to the way you want to travel.
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Like, you get tired- Right … eventually,
and, like, after a while the novelty
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wears out, so you come to your senses
and you know you would do something
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a little bit more mundane and boring.
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But because I was able to create a
lifestyle out of it and, like, you get
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addicted to this kind of freedom and not
being, having a boss, but being able to
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write your own version of what makes sense
to you while being able to hike every
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other day or go cycling whenever you want
and work with amazing companies, like,
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it, it hit me that that- That, yeah, I
could actually, uh, make, make this work.
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And although we don't know what the
future is because AI is also now part
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of the conversation, but I think as
long as you have a story to tell, it
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has a human voice behind it, and people
believe in your why, there's always an
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opportunity to make it work Mm. Even
if it sounds delusional sometimes.
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So that's interesting 'cause I think I
saw somewhere that you mentioned that
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a lot of pe- people have told you that
they think you're really brave, but
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that really doesn't resonate with you.
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Um, is… Did I get that right?
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And, and why don't you feel that
you are brave to do these things?
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Yeah,
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I think, I think I get, uh, why
people think it's brave, uh, in the
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sense that, you know, you're living
such a good life, like a corporate
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life behind to do this, and there's
a lot of uncertainty behind it.
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And I think when you go to these
kind of places, um, you kinda
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have to, like, not have any fear.
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Which, which is true because I think
fear is just a construct in the end.
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It's what people tell you and
then you sort of come to believe
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that, okay, you should be afraid.
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But if you are reading the right kind of
material, if you're consuming, I think,
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the right kind of stories, like reading
a lot of books, I think you, you almost
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come out invincible and you think you…
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nothing will happen to you.
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So it's more of a mindset, and I think
Asian culture makes us have, like,
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this scarcity mindset where, you know,
you always need to have a backup plan.
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You always need to make sure
that you are within the confines
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of what is safe and successful.
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But once you go off script,
like, um- What, what are the
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parameters of being brave?
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Like, I think you only can
answer that for yourself.
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Right.
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Well, it's interesting for me because
s- I w- I'm American originally.
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Yeah.
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I took a gap year, and I backpacked
around Europe and- Yeah … Southeast
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Asia when I was, uh, just, like seven,
end of being 17 to when I turned 18.
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And then I eventually moved back
to Asia, and I've been here, uh…
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I lived in China for five years.
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I've been in Singapore for 12 years.
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Wow, okay.
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So sometimes I feel like I'm on a
permanent trip- Yeah … because
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even though I know Singapore very
well now, I know Southeast Asia,
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I'm still not ever gonna be a local.
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Right.
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Um, and so in some ways it still
is, like, an adventure every day.
00:12:19.319 --> 00:12:24.125
But I think for me, like that one
year, there were definitely times when
00:12:24.757 --> 00:12:27.850
I got tired- Yeah … and just was
like, "Oh, I just wanna sit in the
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hostel at that time"- Yeah … "and,
and not go out and do an adventure."
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Yeah, yeah.
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Do, do
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you have those kind of-
I do … times happen?
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I do, which is why, like, I don't
subscribe to the whole, uh, digital
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nomad life or living out of a backpack.
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I think there's only so much that you
can do before, like, you know, you
00:12:44.724 --> 00:12:48.079
would hit the reset button, and you
would think, "This is not for me."
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Mm.
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Um, which is pretty much why I only
have, like, one big trips a year
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and where I will leave for, like,
maybe two months, uh, maximum.
00:12:57.278 --> 00:13:00.348
But lately it's been, like,
three weeks or, like, four, four
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weeks at the, at the maximum.
00:13:02.358 --> 00:13:06.495
But recently it stretched out to, to
become two months, and it was also
00:13:06.497 --> 00:13:10.939
really, really tiring that I actually
needed to book an Airbnb for, like,
00:13:10.949 --> 00:13:16.105
a week to do normal things like, uh,
going to the gym, like, maybe cooking
00:13:16.105 --> 00:13:18.160
your own meals and doing some work.
00:13:18.406 --> 00:13:18.560
Right.
00:13:18.560 --> 00:13:25.124
So sometimes- I think as we age,
we, we… I think the good way of
00:13:25.145 --> 00:13:28.080
traveling that way is that it's
good to do it while you are young.
00:13:28.633 --> 00:13:33.146
As you age, you can still do it, but,
like, the problem with it is that you
00:13:33.146 --> 00:13:37.174
would definitely feel like you need
to hit the reset button because also
00:13:37.174 --> 00:13:41.846
what you eat makes a huge difference,
and if you keep eating junk while you
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travel, like it's, you're gonna feel
it, feel it in your body at one point.
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Right.
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Yeah.
00:13:47.102 --> 00:13:54.433
And I think you've also mentioned that you
started to feel like the travel content
00:13:54.951 --> 00:14:01.430
was a little bit, uh, old, old hat, and
you wanted to focus more on mission-based
00:14:01.443 --> 00:14:03.457
travel and traveling with a purpose.
00:14:03.756 --> 00:14:04.135
Yeah.
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:07.673
Uh, that's true, which is why, like,
I think, uh, halfway while I was
00:14:07.695 --> 00:14:13.505
blogging, I also, uh, freelanced
with an environmental, uh, website
00:14:13.512 --> 00:14:17.947
here in Malaysia called Macaranga,
and I wrote some articles with them.
00:14:17.957 --> 00:14:23.817
But, um, I also felt really restricted,
and I found, like, the best way sometimes
00:14:23.844 --> 00:14:26.004
is to try new things, different things.
00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:26.423
Mm-hmm.
00:14:26.452 --> 00:14:29.895
It, it could be, like, traditional
media, or it could be, um,
00:14:30.211 --> 00:14:32.370
blogging or unofficial outlets.
00:14:32.773 --> 00:14:35.907
But at the end of the day,
there are so many different ways
00:14:35.935 --> 00:14:37.580
nowadays to tell your stories.
00:14:37.614 --> 00:14:40.009
It doesn't need to be another listicle.
00:14:40.400 --> 00:14:40.665
Right.
00:14:41.035 --> 00:14:44.928
And I… And my biggest problem
is that, like, how do you get,
00:14:44.987 --> 00:14:49.312
keep destinations and locations
without sharing all the information?
00:14:49.582 --> 00:14:49.648
Mm-hmm.
00:14:50.195 --> 00:14:50.560
Yeah.
00:14:50.609 --> 00:14:54.646
And I think that's the biggest problem
with social media, but it's also
00:14:54.653 --> 00:14:59.443
really unique because now when I'm
testing and writing scripts, I find
00:14:59.444 --> 00:15:03.779
that people connect with your story
more, uh, rather than, you know,
00:15:03.780 --> 00:15:08.067
always putting a location or the 10
things you must do in this location.
00:15:08.068 --> 00:15:13.432
So I think overall we are evolving,
but at the same time, there's always
00:15:13.478 --> 00:15:19.322
this, uh, FOMO ex- aspect with social
media and Instagram, and it, and
00:15:19.562 --> 00:15:21.407
it's so hard to move away from that.
00:15:21.410 --> 00:15:25.952
But I think you also need to be really
thoughtful with the way that you're
00:15:25.972 --> 00:15:29.794
writing content out there and making sure
that you're not doing it just for social
00:15:29.795 --> 00:15:31.431
media, but you're doing it for yourself.
00:15:31.848 --> 00:15:37.339
It sounds like it's almost a f- more of
a philosophy about how to travel than
00:15:37.939 --> 00:15:43.221
a list- Yeah … of destinations or
trying to find a place or experience.
00:15:43.694 --> 00:15:47.905
I guess so, but I really hate to
tell people, like, how to travel, and
00:15:47.917 --> 00:15:49.756
I'm still trying to figure out this.
00:15:49.781 --> 00:15:52.677
And h- to be honest, I don't even
know if I would be doing this
00:15:52.688 --> 00:15:56.775
in the next five years because,
like, you change every year.
00:15:56.947 --> 00:15:57.117
Mm-hmm.
00:15:57.130 --> 00:16:01.834
You see things, you see, you
see glaciers, sorry, melting
00:16:03.981 --> 00:16:06.880
You wanna be sure that you're
not part of the problem, right?
00:16:07.184 --> 00:16:11.010
You're not the same person repeating
the same stories over and over again.
00:16:11.014 --> 00:16:16.036
"Oh, here's 10 things you should do."
You wanna be also, uh, being part of
00:16:16.036 --> 00:16:19.891
a conversation where you can initiate
change, where, you know, you can talk
00:16:19.901 --> 00:16:24.650
about what's happening or, like, maybe do
something that would make a difference.
00:16:25.112 --> 00:16:29.839
Yeah, so I think, um, the way we travel
would probably change in the future.
00:16:29.846 --> 00:16:35.632
I hope it does because if not, like
There would just be people turning
00:16:35.633 --> 00:16:39.218
up, taking a picture, and then moving
on to the next location, but no one's
00:16:39.219 --> 00:16:43.872
really caring whe- whether, you know,
about the people in the neighborhoods.
00:16:43.953 --> 00:16:46.969
Like, how do they feel
about you being there?
00:16:46.969 --> 00:16:46.979
Right.
00:16:47.833 --> 00:16:52.606
And so how is it when you travel,
especially to, um, less popular
00:16:52.606 --> 00:16:58.077
destinations or further afar, maybe
people, their local economy is not
00:16:58.077 --> 00:17:03.834
as good, where maybe your business or
one tip that you give is, is, makes
00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:05.933
such a big difference in their lives?
00:17:05.935 --> 00:17:05.947
Yeah.
00:17:06.428 --> 00:17:09.165
I think, which is why the
journeys that I take, they always
00:17:09.205 --> 00:17:10.739
involve some kind of movement.
00:17:11.288 --> 00:17:14.020
Like, it's not something
that's easy to get to.
00:17:14.036 --> 00:17:18.197
It's either you have to cycle, like,
seven days to go to, like, for example, I
00:17:18.204 --> 00:17:21.330
cycled last year in Korea for seven days.
00:17:21.338 --> 00:17:21.353
Wow.
00:17:21.627 --> 00:17:24.657
And we saw, like, a completely
different side of Korea where,
00:17:24.701 --> 00:17:26.200
like, nobody was talking about.
00:17:26.492 --> 00:17:32.188
And I really like that because everyone
talks about, like, um, depopulation in
00:17:32.198 --> 00:17:37.885
these, uh, towns b- and, uh, but no one's
visiting them or, like, talking to the old
00:17:37.886 --> 00:17:39.926
people and seeing what their life is like.
00:17:39.926 --> 00:17:45.226
So when we were cycling through, it was
so insightful to hear, like, how most
00:17:45.226 --> 00:17:50.299
of them are still working because they
also need to get their pensions, right?
00:17:50.305 --> 00:17:54.132
It's not an option for a lot of
them because it's expensive every…
00:17:54.172 --> 00:17:55.778
All their kids are moving to Seoul.
00:17:56.232 --> 00:17:56.513
Mm-hmm.
00:17:56.657 --> 00:18:00.663
And, like, how else would you be able
to know about this if you don't go
00:18:00.664 --> 00:18:05.473
to places where, where it's not just
an Instagrammable spot, but we cycle
00:18:05.473 --> 00:18:09.073
through, like, these rural towns
where there was barely anybody there.
00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:09.993
It was just old people.
00:18:10.648 --> 00:18:15.621
Yeah, so I think it's also choosing
things that makes you wanna learn about
00:18:15.621 --> 00:18:17.588
a town, not just because it's pretty.
00:18:18.651 --> 00:18:21.393
And are you, are you,
like, very extroverted?
00:18:21.393 --> 00:18:23.989
Like, how do you- No … is it
comfortable talking to locals?
00:18:24.137 --> 00:18:29.314
Is- I am very, very introverted, but,
uh, I think when you are automatically
00:18:29.419 --> 00:18:34.407
cycling around these places where they
barely see people of color or people
00:18:34.407 --> 00:18:36.144
who look so different from them Mm.
00:18:36.153 --> 00:18:41.026
Automatically, you become like a, a,
you, th- like, they're just curious.
00:18:41.066 --> 00:18:42.485
They, they will come up to you.
00:18:42.511 --> 00:18:43.460
They will help you.
00:18:43.995 --> 00:18:47.876
Um, like, I think, for example, like,
uh, when I was cycling through this
00:18:47.898 --> 00:18:52.118
town in Korea and this, um… Like,
a lot of people say that Koreans are
00:18:52.118 --> 00:18:56.192
not very friendly, but, like, this
guy, he came up with his, with his
00:18:56.208 --> 00:18:58.136
glove, and he started fixing our bike.
00:18:58.343 --> 00:18:58.624
Oh.
00:18:58.775 --> 00:19:00.242
Yeah, he just came up to us.
00:19:00.275 --> 00:19:03.643
But at the same time, that led to
something else, like usually an
00:19:03.654 --> 00:19:08.177
invitation to, to their house for
tea, and I think this thing you
00:19:08.179 --> 00:19:10.620
can't commodify these experiences.
00:19:11.041 --> 00:19:12.503
Like, it just happens to you.
00:19:12.945 --> 00:19:16.655
And so- You mentioned before,
you know, things changing
00:19:16.655 --> 00:19:19.287
with Instagram and Reels- Yeah
00:19:19.287 --> 00:19:20.268
and the type of content.
00:19:21.005 --> 00:19:26.377
Um, how do you balance… I mean, you
see a lot of, or s- some creators, right,
00:19:26.432 --> 00:19:31.705
YouTubers and these kind of people, you
know, they, they need the hook that gets
00:19:31.706 --> 00:19:33.566
people to click and gets people to watch.
00:19:33.566 --> 00:19:33.605
Yeah.
00:19:33.605 --> 00:19:37.488
It has to be something exciting- Yeah
… it has to be something contrarian.
00:19:38.041 --> 00:19:44.414
How do you look at that and not
be beholden to the algorithm and
00:19:44.414 --> 00:19:47.153
create the content that you wanna
create with the perspective that
00:19:47.154 --> 00:19:50.765
you want instead of what's gonna get
the most views or the most clicks?
00:19:50.765 --> 00:19:50.775
Right.
00:19:51.166 --> 00:19:54.838
I, I think it's really hard, um,
which is why when you're building
00:19:54.840 --> 00:19:59.458
your script and, like, doing a Reel on
Instagram, it always starts with a hook.
00:19:59.989 --> 00:20:04.310
And, like, every other content creator
out there says that it's only your hook
00:20:04.496 --> 00:20:07.793
that it's going to make a difference,
which is true, but I think a lot of
00:20:07.815 --> 00:20:12.780
the audiences are also kind of sick
of, like, over-polished Reels or them
00:20:12.782 --> 00:20:15.615
trying to get your attention, and
they're really smart about it now.
00:20:15.679 --> 00:20:17.943
Like, not everyone is going to follow you.
00:20:17.945 --> 00:20:22.370
Like, they might like your Reel, but
they w- wouldn't convert into a follower.
00:20:22.777 --> 00:20:27.110
So I think the biggest thing that you
can do to yourself is to tell stories
00:20:27.135 --> 00:20:29.349
that are authentic, authentic to you.
00:20:30.083 --> 00:20:33.396
And, uh, you can have a hook in the
beginning, but the rest of the script
00:20:33.903 --> 00:20:36.626
doesn't need to be like, "Oh, you
can go here, you can go there," but
00:20:36.627 --> 00:20:38.603
it could be a story about the place.
00:20:38.791 --> 00:20:38.928
Mm-hmm.
00:20:38.954 --> 00:20:41.922
But, like, what is it that
you saw, observe, or, like, a
00:20:41.923 --> 00:20:45.671
conversation with someone that you
met that changed your perspective.
00:20:45.964 --> 00:20:51.776
I think people crave those kind of, uh,
stories as well, and everything doesn't
00:20:51.789 --> 00:20:56.631
have to be content, and you don't need
to, like, bow down to the algorithm.
00:20:57.228 --> 00:21:00.561
And so after, I think it's been,
like, almost 10 years for you, right?
00:21:00.572 --> 00:21:01.189
Yeah, I'm really old.
00:21:01.483 --> 00:21:01.857
Yes.
00:21:02.468 --> 00:21:04.659
But, but how, so how,
but how is the travel?
00:21:04.659 --> 00:21:09.086
Obviously- You're a
more seasoned traveler.
00:21:09.087 --> 00:21:13.787
You're used to, um, you know, it's,
it's maybe almost routine now.
00:21:13.798 --> 00:21:15.253
How has the actual-
00:21:15.318 --> 00:21:15.841
To be honest,
00:21:15.843 --> 00:21:16.441
like- … travel changed?
00:21:16.567 --> 00:21:22.633
… as you age, I would say fear becomes
more of a problem too sometimes.
00:21:22.634 --> 00:21:26.847
Like, like for example, like I would just
pick a bike and cycle somewhere, but now
00:21:26.848 --> 00:21:30.893
I would have to research a little bit
more about like, oh, is there a shelter?
00:21:31.266 --> 00:21:32.711
Is there a stop somewhere?
00:21:33.052 --> 00:21:34.112
Do we have a guest house?
00:21:34.134 --> 00:21:34.914
Is this remote?
00:21:34.938 --> 00:21:37.017
Do I need to take a tent with me?
00:21:37.390 --> 00:21:37.543
Mm-hmm.
00:21:37.570 --> 00:21:40.080
All these things I didn't
think about 10 years ago.
00:21:40.083 --> 00:21:41.114
Like, I just went.
00:21:41.462 --> 00:21:47.096
But now, like I would do a little bit
more due diligence, and I think it's fear.
00:21:47.114 --> 00:21:55.219
It's also, um, it's also like knowing like
how your body reacts now to, to these kind
00:21:55.220 --> 00:21:57.581
of changes, like you are slower sometimes.
00:21:58.245 --> 00:22:03.022
And yeah, like I would still…
Like I still went to Peru recently
00:22:03.022 --> 00:22:05.570
and I did like a 12-day trek,
but I didn't do it on my own.
00:22:05.594 --> 00:22:07.433
I did it with an agency-
00:22:07.657 --> 00:22:07.923
Mm-hmm
00:22:07.923 --> 00:22:12.727
… where, you know, they had
like proper tents for you.
00:22:12.761 --> 00:22:14.347
There's a chef cooking for you.
00:22:14.710 --> 00:22:19.050
But usually I would go try to do it on my
own if I could, like many, many years ago.
00:22:19.050 --> 00:22:23.150
But now because there's, there's
an option to partner with amazing
00:22:23.150 --> 00:22:26.572
companies where everything is kind of
taken care of you, all you need to do
00:22:26.573 --> 00:22:28.171
is just show up and tell the story.
00:22:28.683 --> 00:22:28.850
Mm-hmm.
00:22:28.866 --> 00:22:30.480
So it changes a little bit.
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:34.695
I, I think it becomes a bit more
comfortable, which is, which then
00:22:34.716 --> 00:22:39.200
against defeats the purpose about how
I read the book called The Comfort
00:22:39.202 --> 00:22:41.941
Crisis, where I wanna be uncomfortable.
00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:47.887
But, um, yeah, s- so it's
also a middle ground In a way
00:22:48.311 --> 00:22:55.497
So is there any sort of moral or
artistic balance that you have to strike
00:22:55.541 --> 00:23:01.362
between working with a brand or getting
sponsorships to, because it's what you
00:23:01.362 --> 00:23:07.231
do for, for a living now, versus what
your heart or your soul tells you to
00:23:07.233 --> 00:23:09.126
go and do or, or where you want to go?
00:23:09.126 --> 00:23:12.737
No, I think I first figure out
the destinations I want to go to,
00:23:13.201 --> 00:23:17.492
and then I would reach out to the
companies that I wanna work at.
00:23:17.497 --> 00:23:20.224
I don't work that much with
tourism boards- Mm-hmm … 'cause
00:23:20.228 --> 00:23:21.877
I don't like the itineraries.
00:23:21.894 --> 00:23:26.659
Like, everything is packaged, and,
and it just feels like it's not you.
00:23:27.197 --> 00:23:27.333
Mm-hmm.
00:23:27.345 --> 00:23:27.676
You know?
00:23:27.677 --> 00:23:30.759
So I don't try and work unless
it's something so offbeat.
00:23:30.777 --> 00:23:36.164
Like, the Italy Tourism Board,
uh, I think I won one of this, uh,
00:23:36.201 --> 00:23:39.834
competition that they had where it
was a camino that they were launching,
00:23:40.170 --> 00:23:43.480
where it's about hiking, and it was
I think more aligned with what I do.
00:23:43.813 --> 00:23:44.170
Mm-hmm.
00:23:44.176 --> 00:23:49.119
But, like, an ordinary tourism board,
like, I honestly don't like most of their
00:23:49.121 --> 00:23:51.877
itineraries, and just, just the way it is.
00:23:51.935 --> 00:23:54.948
Like, it's not… Yeah,
it's not something I enjoy.
00:23:54.958 --> 00:24:00.057
So if, if it's not something I enjoy,
I would rather pick destinations
00:24:00.081 --> 00:24:04.216
I would wanna go to, and then find
the right partners for, for it.
00:24:05.276 --> 00:24:05.605
Yeah.
00:24:05.836 --> 00:24:09.104
So one, one interesting thing, I mean,
obviously, like I said, I'm American,
00:24:09.107 --> 00:24:15.000
but I'm- Yeah … not ethnically,
uh, Caucasian, but you see a lot of
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:22.243
these channels or creators that come,
and they kind of, um, not fetishize,
00:24:22.264 --> 00:24:25.160
but exoticize s- even Malaysia- Yeah
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:28.351
or, or- Yeah … like a lot of
people will, will go to Singapore and
00:24:28.384 --> 00:24:30.248
we… It gets in the news sometimes.
00:24:30.248 --> 00:24:34.019
They say, "Oh, Singapore's so boring,"
because it's not rainforest and-
00:24:34.019 --> 00:24:35.157
Yeah … and these kind of things.
00:24:35.159 --> 00:24:35.247
It's just a
00:24:35.247 --> 00:24:35.769
concrete jungle.
00:24:35.780 --> 00:24:36.091
Yeah.
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:40.186
They don't, they, they want the, something
that's very different from- Yeah, right
00:24:40.186 --> 00:24:41.084
where they come from, right?
00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:47.016
Um, but for you, as, as a Malaysian,
and as someone from Southeast Asia,
00:24:47.562 --> 00:24:53.928
you are also going to places that maybe
are, um, less developed than Malaysia.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:59.455
Do you, do you see that as somewhat
similar as to when these creators come
00:24:59.455 --> 00:25:03.997
to Malaysia or Thailand or Bali or
this sort of thing, or is it different?
00:25:05.727 --> 00:25:09.384
I think they don't try to exoticize them.
00:25:09.989 --> 00:25:14.236
Um, I think it's also the way you
present the story, and I think a lot
00:25:14.236 --> 00:25:16.750
of people tend to do this shock factor-
00:25:16.750 --> 00:25:16.982
Mm
00:25:17.264 --> 00:25:23.143
… thing, and I try not to do it, and I
say it as it is, as, as honest as I can.
00:25:23.659 --> 00:25:27.834
And I think it works maybe well for
them because they are white, and
00:25:27.844 --> 00:25:32.416
somehow in Malaysia, like, we tend to
worship people who are so different
00:25:32.426 --> 00:25:35.129
from us, and if they are saying
something good about our country,
00:25:35.499 --> 00:25:37.293
automatically you're gonna listen.
00:25:37.577 --> 00:25:43.170
Mm. Because I think as Malaysians, we
don't take s- our country… Like, we
00:25:43.171 --> 00:25:48.325
don't appreciate it until, like, someone
who, like, is white or s- a Caucasian
00:25:48.333 --> 00:25:52.504
looking would tell us, then, you know,
that's when you sort of appreciate it
00:25:52.545 --> 00:25:54.259
a bit more, which is kinda sad as well.
00:25:55.084 --> 00:25:55.549
Yeah.
00:25:55.912 --> 00:26:01.083
And, uh, I think my biggest struggle for
me is, like, even if I'm a Malaysian and
00:26:01.084 --> 00:26:05.907
I try to tell the content here, people
still think you are not Malaysian enough.
00:26:06.329 --> 00:26:10.042
Like, two times I think I tried to
work with some brands, but somehow
00:26:10.115 --> 00:26:14.477
the first question they ask me is,
"Are you even Malaysian?" Like, they
00:26:14.479 --> 00:26:19.395
don't see, like, there's a diversity
in voices and the way people look.
00:26:20.068 --> 00:26:23.891
Yeah, so for me, that's the biggest
struggle that I face trying to work here.
00:26:23.892 --> 00:26:27.750
Like, with go- global brands, like,
nobody really cares as long as your
00:26:27.752 --> 00:26:29.458
storytelling, your pitch is great.
00:26:30.071 --> 00:26:33.584
But over here, it's sadly
just the way you look
00:26:34.884 --> 00:26:35.061
So
00:26:35.063 --> 00:26:37.820
they want a stereo- Yeah,
so if you're not- … chip.
00:26:37.840 --> 00:26:39.641
Oh … yeah, if you're not Chinese
or if you're not Malay and you don't
00:26:39.651 --> 00:26:45.126
fit into the core demographic, you
are also not considered in marketing
00:26:45.127 --> 00:26:46.569
campaigns- Mm-hmm … or plans.
00:26:47.275 --> 00:26:49.282
Like, it's, it's as sad as it is.
00:26:50.229 --> 00:26:50.608
Yeah.
00:26:50.723 --> 00:26:56.764
And but for you, your, your listen-
or your viewers, your readers, do you
00:26:56.777 --> 00:27:02.154
think, um, they see you as Malaysian
or they see you as an adventurer or-
00:27:02.858 --> 00:27:02.951
I think people are confused.
00:27:02.951 --> 00:27:06.033
Like first they think
you're from India, right?
00:27:06.086 --> 00:27:10.650
Or they don't see it like, um, they
just think you're from India or,
00:27:10.655 --> 00:27:12.468
like, from a Middle Eastern country.
00:27:12.470 --> 00:27:16.571
They don't think you're Malaysian
because it's not something that
00:27:16.590 --> 00:27:17.995
maybe they're used to seeing.
00:27:18.683 --> 00:27:25.211
Like, people who I think have very…
Like the Malaysian content creators that
00:27:25.212 --> 00:27:31.390
I see here, like, um, they tend to I
think also sound maybe more Malaysian.
00:27:31.878 --> 00:27:32.114
Mm.
00:27:32.215 --> 00:27:32.622
Yeah.
00:27:32.665 --> 00:27:36.135
And also I think it's how
you speak and I don't know.
00:27:36.137 --> 00:27:40.169
Like, it's hard because I did go
to an international school and,
00:27:40.170 --> 00:27:42.729
uh, I do tend to code switch.
00:27:42.729 --> 00:27:46.451
Like when you talk with your friends you
say, "La," but somehow it doesn't come
00:27:46.622 --> 00:27:49.410
in my scripts or like when I say things.
00:27:49.743 --> 00:27:49.885
Right.
00:27:49.885 --> 00:27:50.231
Yeah.
00:27:50.241 --> 00:27:55.801
So, so I sometimes I wonder should
I change the way I speak like to
00:27:55.801 --> 00:27:59.989
sound more Malaysian, like to have
like all these different slangs?
00:28:00.019 --> 00:28:02.936
But then I realize like
what's the point then?
00:28:02.946 --> 00:28:05.171
You're just, like, changing yourself.
00:28:05.315 --> 00:28:05.529
Mm.
00:28:05.542 --> 00:28:05.990
Right?
00:28:06.213 --> 00:28:06.642
Yeah.
00:28:07.967 --> 00:28:14.697
And so for when I think that
identity factor, especially from
00:28:15.419 --> 00:28:21.003
when you have talked about how
you s- started traveling late-
00:28:21.152 --> 00:28:21.256
Yeah
00:28:21.256 --> 00:28:27.765
… um, and now it's, it's who you are and,
and it's what you do, but you still- Mm
00:28:27.765 --> 00:28:32.971
feel like maybe you're not as accepted
as, as you could be or should be.
00:28:33.853 --> 00:28:34.389
Yeah.
00:28:34.389 --> 00:28:39.042
Like, it, it's kind of sad that, uh, you
get opportunities from like global count-
00:28:39.071 --> 00:28:43.905
from countries, but like your own country
also doesn't see you as Malaysian enough.
00:28:44.301 --> 00:28:48.142
And like, yeah, maybe you have to tell
more local stories, then that's when you
00:28:48.142 --> 00:28:52.382
get, like, the eyeballs, which I try, I
think, with certain videos, like talking
00:28:52.388 --> 00:28:55.218
about Taiping, and its rainforest towns.
00:28:55.253 --> 00:29:01.284
Um, yeah, so maybe it's also changing the
way you, you focus on things or sharing
00:29:01.284 --> 00:29:06.423
more of your story and trying to bring
in more of, like, local elements and
00:29:06.430 --> 00:29:08.229
things that you observed in Malaysia.
00:29:08.574 --> 00:29:08.830
Mm.
00:29:08.842 --> 00:29:12.240
Yeah, but, but it's, uh,
but it's also challenging.
00:29:12.264 --> 00:29:17.011
Like, you know, if you want to focus on,
like, global destinations, um, you're,
00:29:17.028 --> 00:29:20.861
you're not gonna be taken seriously
by brands, yeah, because I think they
00:29:20.861 --> 00:29:24.238
want very, very localized, uh, content.
00:29:24.457 --> 00:29:29.870
And most of it sometimes is barter,
where you don't, you, like, you can't
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:31.693
really make a lot of money as well.
00:29:32.014 --> 00:29:32.177
Mm.
00:29:32.203 --> 00:29:35.803
So yeah, it's, I think it's
a struggle for some people.
00:29:36.019 --> 00:29:36.476
Right.
00:29:36.676 --> 00:29:41.564
Yeah, and I think I read recently,
like, how, um, being a content
00:29:41.564 --> 00:29:45.403
creator is considered, like, a
low status kind of, kind of job.
00:29:46.108 --> 00:29:49.741
Like, it's not prestigious,
prestigious enough.
00:29:50.582 --> 00:29:51.044
Oh, really?
00:29:51.047 --> 00:29:54.658
I, I thought everybody wants to
be a creator and- Maybe everyone
00:29:54.835 --> 00:29:56.952
want- … a YouTuber these days
… everyone wants to be a creator,
00:29:56.981 --> 00:30:00.252
but they know that, like, it's a
hustle at, at the end of the day.
00:30:00.253 --> 00:30:02.872
Mm. You're not gonna get
this stable check, right?
00:30:03.549 --> 00:30:07.884
But a- at the same time, like,
people who have studied for and have,
00:30:07.965 --> 00:30:12.461
like, an MBA, uh, it's something
where they do it on the side- Mm
00:30:12.461 --> 00:30:17.248
but it's not something where they would
do it full time or take it seriously.
00:30:17.715 --> 00:30:19.977
But now I think things are changing.
00:30:19.988 --> 00:30:24.499
Like, I would rather take, like,
a low status content creation job
00:30:24.526 --> 00:30:26.093
and have, like, a high income.
00:30:26.401 --> 00:30:30.421
Like, there's no prestige with
saying things like, "Oh, I have a
00:30:30.421 --> 00:30:32.046
blog called The, The Gone Goat."
00:30:32.122 --> 00:30:34.502
Like, for the longest time, when
you say things like this, it
00:30:34.502 --> 00:30:36.859
just makes it seem like a hobby.
00:30:36.921 --> 00:30:40.429
Like, nobody takes it as a
real career, for example.
00:30:41.945 --> 00:30:45.668
But so is it still, but it's still
about the freedom and the ability to-
00:30:45.691 --> 00:30:49.045
Yeah, so I, I think after a while,
like, you know, after you have worked in
00:30:49.050 --> 00:30:53.753
corporate, like if you strip everything,
like you don't care about titles anymore.
00:30:53.753 --> 00:30:55.370
You don't care about status.
00:30:55.383 --> 00:30:59.943
At the end of the day, it's the
happiness and whether like it's able to
00:31:00.273 --> 00:31:04.469
pay the bills, and you're able to earn
what you think it's a decent income.
00:31:05.061 --> 00:31:10.023
Yeah, but I mean, when we were growing
up as millennials, everything… Maybe
00:31:10.024 --> 00:31:13.705
the Gen Z generation doesn't care
so much, but I think we used to also
00:31:13.705 --> 00:31:19.615
regard like getting, getting into a
good university, getting the titles,
00:31:19.684 --> 00:31:24.615
like, you know, reaching a certain, um,
hierarchy when it comes to your job.
00:31:25.027 --> 00:31:28.937
But after four or five years, everything
crumbles, and I think social media
00:31:28.946 --> 00:31:33.613
actually made that happen because
content creation's become so normal
00:31:33.811 --> 00:31:38.547
right now that you don't really
care about status or titles anymore
00:31:40.222 --> 00:31:44.644
Is there a theme that goes throughout your
work of the stories you're trying to tell,
00:31:44.645 --> 00:31:49.488
or is it individual to the place and the
experience that you had in that, there?
00:31:49.975 --> 00:31:56.053
I think the stories that I tell tend
to be surrounded by like, um, movement,
00:31:56.064 --> 00:32:00.525
for example, like taking these long
journeys, like hiking for like 12 days
00:32:01.123 --> 00:32:06.002
and, um, figuring out like how to hike
from this point to the other point, and
00:32:06.014 --> 00:32:11.726
more about this region and the environment
and the people living on these fringes.
00:32:11.961 --> 00:32:14.276
So I think those are the kind
of stories that I like to
00:32:14.276 --> 00:32:17.375
tell, not so much like cities.
00:32:17.416 --> 00:32:18.819
Uh, like cities really bore me.
00:32:18.822 --> 00:32:22.596
Like I don't know what else to say
other than the top 10 things where
00:32:22.608 --> 00:32:24.282
you can get like the best gelato.
00:32:24.754 --> 00:32:28.983
But for me, the journey ones are the
really nice ones because it's not
00:32:28.983 --> 00:32:30.741
just one day, it's seven days, right?
00:32:30.741 --> 00:32:33.649
Like there's- Mm … there's, there's
high points, there's low points.
00:32:33.928 --> 00:32:38.487
You're cycling 80 kilometers, and
then all of a sudden you meet like
00:32:38.505 --> 00:32:43.947
somebody who, who has, who's like 70
or 80 years old who's also doing the
00:32:43.947 --> 00:32:47.789
same journey, but they are doing it for
different reasons, and I think that is
00:32:47.789 --> 00:32:49.896
also like an interesting story to tell.
00:32:49.899 --> 00:32:56.697
So I try to pepper them in my blog or
like in through like a reel or voiceover.
00:32:57.907 --> 00:32:58.093
Um.
00:32:58.163 --> 00:33:04.983
So would, would you say you
still travel more for yourself
00:33:05.235 --> 00:33:09.096
or is it still more of a job now?
00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:16.137
I would say it's such a hard question
because sometimes after two months on the
00:33:16.137 --> 00:33:20.833
road and when you have like back-to-back
travel commitments, it starts becoming
00:33:20.834 --> 00:33:26.349
more of a job, but it's still like
a very privileged position to be in.
00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:29.946
I don't think I've reached the
point where I really hate it.
00:33:30.792 --> 00:33:35.721
Yeah, if you, if you ask me to do it
like for maybe six months at a stretch,
00:33:36.067 --> 00:33:40.072
I would say I hate my job because
there's too much of a good thing.
00:33:40.084 --> 00:33:43.486
After a while, like every mountain
looks the same, and I think for
00:33:43.490 --> 00:33:48.776
me it's important to come back
to Malaysia to be bored for like
00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:50.329
few months and then go again.
00:33:50.814 --> 00:33:54.714
Like I, I'm not a fan of
doing back-to-back trips,
00:33:54.736 --> 00:33:55.822
although I just did one.
00:33:56.286 --> 00:34:00.831
But yeah, I'm not a fan of doing that,
and I don't know how people do like,
00:34:00.860 --> 00:34:02.492
I don't know, six months Europe trip.
00:34:03.018 --> 00:34:04.688
Like good… It's, it's tiring
00:34:05.856 --> 00:34:09.627
What do you think you'll do in
the future that happens and you
00:34:09.637 --> 00:34:11.433
get burned out on traveling?
00:34:12.226 --> 00:34:12.560
I don't know.
00:34:12.561 --> 00:34:16.208
I don't fancy also looking at
the screen the whole day and
00:34:16.208 --> 00:34:18.674
writing articles and doing this.
00:34:18.696 --> 00:34:23.190
Like, it's, it's a nice free job, but
I think in the future I would like
00:34:23.192 --> 00:34:25.248
to do something more with my hands.
00:34:25.899 --> 00:34:29.230
Like, uh, I know, like, farming
would be the default answer
00:34:29.253 --> 00:34:31.360
to say, but I'm not sure yet.
00:34:31.437 --> 00:34:32.375
Like- Mm
00:34:32.375 --> 00:34:37.183
I feel like every year we change,
and, uh, I just know that I need to
00:34:37.183 --> 00:34:41.908
do something that is not the same of
what I've done for the last, like, 10
00:34:41.909 --> 00:34:43.719
years, because you change eventually.
00:34:44.436 --> 00:34:49.306
But it would be really nice to do
something that doesn't involve pixels and
00:34:49.306 --> 00:34:51.913
the screen and this digital lifestyle.
00:34:52.917 --> 00:34:55.998
So I think it was around 10 years- Yeah
00:34:55.998 --> 00:34:57.796
that you worked in corporate first, right?
00:34:57.797 --> 00:34:59.563
And now another 10 years of, of the- No,
00:34:59.564 --> 00:35:01.104
I only worked in corporate for four years.
00:35:01.147 --> 00:35:01.604
Four years.
00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:02.018
Yeah.
00:35:02.018 --> 00:35:02.032
Okay.
00:35:02.500 --> 00:35:08.172
So but what do you think is it you're,
is driving… 'Cause it sounds like
00:35:08.172 --> 00:35:11.711
maybe another big change is, is
on the horizon sometime in, in the
00:35:11.712 --> 00:35:12.145
future.
00:35:12.145 --> 00:35:12.276
I think so.
00:35:12.301 --> 00:35:17.469
Like, I'm already in my late 30s,
and I feel like every, like, I read
00:35:17.470 --> 00:35:22.566
somewhere that I think as humans we
have multiple mid-crisis, like, at
00:35:22.566 --> 00:35:24.686
least seven in our life, I think.
00:35:25.148 --> 00:35:28.270
Like, I've already had, like, maybe
two or three, so there's still another
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:31.110
three to four more for it to come true.
00:35:31.801 --> 00:35:33.894
Um, yeah, like, who knows?
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:38.257
Like, maybe starting a YouTube channel,
but then that would be going back to-
00:35:38.257 --> 00:35:39.642
Right … recording and screening.
00:35:39.683 --> 00:35:44.583
Like, yeah, but I think I like the idea
of crafting something with your hands
00:35:44.615 --> 00:35:50.045
or, like, making something, because
everything has been so digitized that
00:35:50.049 --> 00:35:56.134
I feel like there's a need to, like,
move away to, to the analog world.
00:35:56.819 --> 00:36:03.960
Yeah, something that involves, like,
like growing plants or, like, moving to a
00:36:03.961 --> 00:36:10.520
small town where nobody knows you, and you
maybe start, like, a community event space
00:36:10.540 --> 00:36:12.270
where everyone just have conversations.
00:36:12.270 --> 00:36:17.303
Like, I've seen a few women do that, but
I'm also an introvert, and I feel like
00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:21.850
constant stimulation also burns me out.
00:36:22.154 --> 00:36:22.462
Mm-hmm.
00:36:22.527 --> 00:36:26.971
Yeah, so, like, I think it
would be wild if I were to,
00:36:26.974 --> 00:36:28.721
like, go back to having a job.
00:36:28.745 --> 00:36:31.436
Like, part of me thinks, like,
could I actually do that?
00:36:32.091 --> 00:36:36.739
Like, you know, get a job, uh, and
maybe work with someone, because for the
00:36:36.739 --> 00:36:38.633
longest time I've moved away from that.
00:36:38.644 --> 00:36:44.831
But it would be also really cool to see
how I would adapt if I were to go back
00:36:44.831 --> 00:36:46.477
to having a job that I really like.
00:36:47.096 --> 00:36:47.700
Mm. Yeah.
00:36:48.201 --> 00:36:55.518
Not as a social experiment, but, but just
to see, like- Would it be an out-of-body
00:36:55.530 --> 00:37:00.267
experience or, or maybe it would change
the way I see things differently.
00:37:00.281 --> 00:37:03.184
Like, not a corporate job, but a, a job.
00:37:03.782 --> 00:37:03.925
Mm.
00:37:04.551 --> 00:37:09.321
Not… Like, I've read a few books
about how a lot of women or, like,
00:37:09.328 --> 00:37:13.934
people who are choosing soft jobs
where, you know, they're just working
00:37:13.934 --> 00:37:19.148
in coffee shops and making coffee,
like nothing is expected of them.
00:37:19.451 --> 00:37:24.031
Like, at 5:00 PM if they come back,
there's no continuous WhatsApp messages.
00:37:24.137 --> 00:37:24.436
Right.
00:37:24.829 --> 00:37:29.664
And, uh, and I kinda like that life,
but I think it's also a privilege
00:37:29.681 --> 00:37:32.429
to- Right … because you need to
have a lot of money in your account
00:37:32.793 --> 00:37:34.964
to not care about money, I feel.
00:37:35.430 --> 00:37:40.579
And somehow we tend to default to
think like, "Okay, I've done this.
00:37:40.602 --> 00:37:44.788
It's a cool experience, but I still need
enough money." So yeah, I don't know.
00:37:45.762 --> 00:37:50.715
And so for the years from when you
started your vlog and started traveling,
00:37:51.162 --> 00:37:55.964
did you feel that pressure to build
up the income and scale up how much
00:37:55.964 --> 00:38:00.538
you're making from your blog or from
sponsorships and all this sort of thing?
00:38:00.569 --> 00:38:05.498
I think because I was able to earn in,
like, US dollars as well, or, like,
00:38:05.499 --> 00:38:09.933
in a different currency, and I had,
like, a lot of inbound opportunities,
00:38:10.034 --> 00:38:15.921
like, I didn't Think that I would
be in a precarious position because
00:38:15.921 --> 00:38:17.745
there was always opportunities.
00:38:18.401 --> 00:38:22.390
Um, but yeah, you can not stop
thinking about what's next.
00:38:22.390 --> 00:38:24.783
I think it's just a human tendency.
00:38:25.220 --> 00:38:28.839
Like, we do not th- think we're
satisfied with what we have.
00:38:28.868 --> 00:38:30.656
We always think what is next.
00:38:31.286 --> 00:38:37.303
So, um, there is pressure, but at the
same time, I've seen what… But people
00:38:37.321 --> 00:38:42.453
think about too mu- about money or, like,
trying to, trying to, like, create…
00:38:42.745 --> 00:38:43.841
I mean, have enough money.
00:38:43.855 --> 00:38:46.768
Like, it kills them in the process,
and they're not able to live
00:38:46.769 --> 00:38:50.312
in the moment, and I've seen it
happen to, like, my dad and things.
00:38:50.345 --> 00:38:53.917
And I feel like, you
know, you need enough.
00:38:54.236 --> 00:38:56.517
As long as that is met, that is fine.
00:38:56.526 --> 00:38:58.451
You don't need to, like, strive for more.
00:38:58.923 --> 00:39:02.245
You should strive for more, but
at the same time, at what cost?
00:39:02.602 --> 00:39:04.457
Like, is your health in check?
00:39:04.779 --> 00:39:06.946
Is, are, are you mentally sane?
00:39:07.777 --> 00:39:09.761
Mm, like, are you physically okay?
00:39:09.761 --> 00:39:13.718
If those three is fine, then okay,
you can strive for more, but if it's
00:39:13.730 --> 00:39:15.654
not, then I would focus more on that.
00:39:16.328 --> 00:39:21.397
One other thing I, I wanted to ask
you is how has it been keeping up
00:39:21.721 --> 00:39:25.723
friendships- Mm … and family and
relationships when you are doing
00:39:25.725 --> 00:39:27.374
these trips and traveling quite often?
00:39:28.448 --> 00:39:32.413
I think it's really hard, uh, also
because people know that you're always
00:39:32.441 --> 00:39:37.618
not around, and I've lost, like, a lot of
friendships, uh, only because of distance
00:39:37.644 --> 00:39:41.263
or, like, people choosing different
things in their life where they no longer
00:39:41.288 --> 00:39:43.622
relate to your traveling lifestyle.
00:39:43.922 --> 00:39:47.279
So a lot of my friends
are new, new friendships.
00:39:47.466 --> 00:39:47.636
Mm.
00:39:47.855 --> 00:39:52.000
Yeah, so you lose some, and you
gain some, and I think it's okay,
00:39:52.203 --> 00:39:56.694
um, as long as these friendships
also are meaningful to you.
00:39:57.328 --> 00:40:02.261
Like, you can't also hang on to the
same friendships many, many years
00:40:02.263 --> 00:40:04.000
ago 'cause people have moved on.
00:40:04.634 --> 00:40:09.600
And, um, and yeah, it is a struggle
though because not everyone also
00:40:09.625 --> 00:40:11.231
relates to what you're doing.
00:40:11.267 --> 00:40:15.750
Like, I think in Asia it's harder
because most conversations,
00:40:16.013 --> 00:40:17.770
it's always around marriage.
00:40:18.185 --> 00:40:22.089
It's always about, I don't know, like,
which property people are buying,
00:40:22.102 --> 00:40:28.069
how much people are saving, or, like,
more about their in-laws, but no one
00:40:28.071 --> 00:40:33.241
really talks about, like, ideas or,
like, travels or, like, new people that
00:40:33.250 --> 00:40:34.841
they met while they were traveling.
00:40:35.470 --> 00:40:39.312
And I usually get these kind of
conversations from people that you
00:40:39.312 --> 00:40:41.431
travel with, but it's fleeting, right?
00:40:41.466 --> 00:40:41.477
Mm-hmm.
00:40:41.477 --> 00:40:43.719
Like, you don't know when
you'll see them again.
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:47.962
So I think it's a struggle, but you
also need to put in a lot of effort
00:40:49.607 --> 00:40:49.765
I,
00:40:49.770 --> 00:40:50.309
uh- Yeah
00:40:50.309 --> 00:40:57.929
… um, well, I usually ask as the final
question, um, the same thing for every
00:40:57.931 --> 00:41:00.946
guest, but we've kind of already talked
about it, so I think I'm gonna word
00:41:00.946 --> 00:41:02.619
it a little bit differently- Mm-hmm
00:41:02.619 --> 00:41:07.337
because it sounds like you're thinking
about your future and, and how things
00:41:07.342 --> 00:41:08.996
might change and what you might wanna do.
00:41:08.996 --> 00:41:12.176
Yeah, but it's also scary,
like, to think of the d- future.
00:41:12.830 --> 00:41:13.100
Right.
00:41:13.100 --> 00:41:13.110
Right.
00:41:13.110 --> 00:41:17.203
Like, it's no point thinking about
it if, like, you can't… I feel
00:41:17.203 --> 00:41:20.624
like the maximum you can plan in
life is, like, six months to a year.
00:41:21.173 --> 00:41:23.413
Anything more than that, it's pointless.
00:41:23.882 --> 00:41:27.917
So as someone who's already taken this
big leap 10 years ago- Mm-hmm … when you
00:41:27.926 --> 00:41:33.373
left your corporate job, what do you think
is the most important thing you're gonna
00:41:33.381 --> 00:41:37.770
be thinking about if you decide to make
another big change or another big jump?
00:41:38.621 --> 00:41:40.214
Oh, that's such a tough question.
00:41:41.013 --> 00:41:43.290
Um, what's the next?
00:41:43.897 --> 00:41:46.752
What, what, what would you be looking for?
00:41:46.757 --> 00:41:51.045
What would you be, what would be the
driving factor be, uh, behind, you know,
00:41:51.047 --> 00:41:53.644
why not… You can, you can travel now.
00:41:53.644 --> 00:41:54.763
You can make content.
00:41:54.783 --> 00:41:56.292
You can, uh, live- I
00:41:56.297 --> 00:41:59.611
think maybe a future
of, like, less travel.
00:42:00.060 --> 00:42:04.049
Uh, I know I'm saying that, which is
the irony of it, but I think it's also
00:42:04.654 --> 00:42:09.825
seeing what there is more to life that
doesn't involve traveling, like just
00:42:09.828 --> 00:42:14.700
picking a bag and moving, but what about
doing something else radically different?
00:42:14.734 --> 00:42:19.493
Like, I don't know if that means going
back to university, which, I mean, I don't
00:42:19.493 --> 00:42:25.154
wanna do that, but I love learning, and,
uh, I feel like learning doesn't stop.
00:42:25.154 --> 00:42:29.663
So I'm just thinking what would
it take to learn again, to, like,
00:42:30.163 --> 00:42:34.431
to restart from scratch, but
whether it's picking up a new skill
00:42:34.442 --> 00:42:36.386
completely different from what I have.
00:42:36.950 --> 00:42:38.721
Yeah, but I don't know what that is.
00:42:39.538 --> 00:42:46.884
Do you, do you feel like you are almost,
like, stuck in having to do the travel
00:42:46.904 --> 00:42:49.115
content and continue to do it even though-
00:42:49.522 --> 00:42:54.045
I don't think it's stuck, but I
think I, I like writing about it,
00:42:54.078 --> 00:42:58.205
but I feel like there should also
be more to life than, uh, I guess,
00:42:58.208 --> 00:43:02.067
about destinations and travels and
all these things that I've seen.
00:43:02.632 --> 00:43:06.060
Um, yeah, but I still
don't know what that is.
00:43:06.640 --> 00:43:12.167
And, uh, it would be really nice to,
like, I've seen people, like, in, uh,
00:43:12.194 --> 00:43:16.192
in, in Europe where, you know, they
take odd jobs, for example, being
00:43:16.231 --> 00:43:20.435
a translator, and there's still so
much of joy because at least they are
00:43:20.455 --> 00:43:23.471
speaking to people every day, right?
00:43:23.471 --> 00:43:28.301
Like, now the work that I do- y-
it's mostly behind a screen, and
00:43:28.316 --> 00:43:33.755
you barely have any contact with the
human world unless you make an effort
00:43:33.758 --> 00:43:35.205
or unless you just go traveling.
00:43:35.721 --> 00:43:39.835
But, you know, what if there's a
simpler way to, to at least have
00:43:39.837 --> 00:43:41.447
some interaction with people?
00:43:42.078 --> 00:43:45.226
Um, yeah, so does that mean that
I have to get a job to do that?
00:43:45.950 --> 00:43:48.363
Or could it mean, like,
volunteering somewhere?
00:43:49.092 --> 00:43:51.084
Yeah, so I thought it would
be really nice to start with,
00:43:51.086 --> 00:43:52.589
like, volunteering somewhere.
00:43:53.227 --> 00:43:56.872
Um, yeah, but it also means
giving up a lot of your time.
00:43:57.136 --> 00:43:57.563
Yeah.
00:43:57.918 --> 00:44:02.690
Well, I am sure that you'll find something
that speaks to you and that, um, is
00:44:02.690 --> 00:44:08.788
able to be good for you and for your
next journey or whatever that may be.
00:44:09.105 --> 00:44:12.183
Um, if people wanna read your
blog and follow you on, on social
00:44:12.185 --> 00:44:13.267
media, where do they find you?
00:44:13.952 --> 00:44:18.674
Uh, yeah, you can just find me
on thegonegoat.com and by my
00:44:18.674 --> 00:44:20.564
Instagram handle, thegonegoat.
00:44:20.815 --> 00:44:21.141
Okay, great.
00:44:21.179 --> 00:44:24.946
And I've also started, like, a
Substack, where I would really like
00:44:24.946 --> 00:44:29.665
to go into, like, the raw writing
about my life and things that doesn't
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.554
require, like, places to visit.
00:44:33.006 --> 00:44:34.877
So yeah, I've also started a Substack.
00:44:35.007 --> 00:44:35.283
Great.
00:44:35.324 --> 00:44:35.578
Okay.
00:44:35.578 --> 00:44:37.871
Well, we'll put those
links in the show notes.
00:44:37.991 --> 00:44:38.273
Yes.
00:44:38.274 --> 00:44:39.892
And thanks again so much for joining me.
00:44:39.892 --> 00:44:40.075
It was
00:44:40.086 --> 00:44:40.598
great to talk to you.
00:44:40.598 --> 00:44:40.822
Thank you so much.
00:44:40.877 --> 00:44:44.640
It was really nice to be here,
and, uh, although I'm really afraid
00:44:44.643 --> 00:44:49.804
sometimes of coming on, in front of the
camera, the irony of life, but yeah.
00:44:49.804 --> 00:44:50.569
Thank you for this.
00:44:50.997 --> 00:44:51.520
Thank you.
00:44:51.928 --> 00:44:52.310
All right.
00:44:52.391 --> 00:44:52.969
Bye, everyone.
00:44:53.106 --> 00:45:00.400
And thank you for listening to Before We
Get There with your host, Nicholas Braman.
00:45:00.902 --> 00:45:05.837
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00:45:05.935 --> 00:45:08.641
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00:45:09.322 --> 00:45:16.031
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00:45:16.669 --> 00:45:20.149
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00:45:20.790 --> 00:45:21.679
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