S2 E8: Before Silence Becomes the Relationship: Sabrina Romanoff on Conflict, Guilt & Trust

Gabriella Pomare: Welcome back to Before It Breaks with Gabriella Pomare. This is the podcast where we talk about the things that often begin quietly before the separation, before the resentment, before the affair, before the emotional shutdown, and before two people become strangers living in the same house. Today's conversation is about the psychology of what couples do not say. The silence, the guilt, the avoidance, the resentment. the emotional distance, the needs that are minimized for so long that one day they come out as anger or withdrawal or secrecy or betrayal. Because before a relationship breaks, there's often a long period where people are not necessarily fighting all the time. Sometimes they're simply not saying the truth. They're keeping the peace. They're avoiding the hard conversation. They're telling themselves it is not a big deal. And they're carrying guilt about what they want. What they feel, what they resent, or where their attention has started to go. And slowly the relationship becomes quieter, not peaceful, just quiet. My guest today is Dr. Sabrina Romanoff. Now, Dr. Romanoff is a Harvard-trained clinical psychologist based in New York City. She specializes in relationships, anxiety, trauma, work stress, life transitions, and she works with individuals and couples to understand the patterns that shape. How people connect, protect themselves, withdraw, repair, and rebuild. And that's why I wanted to have this conversation with her. Sabrina, thank you so much for joining me on Before Break. I'm excited to have you on because as you know, we've been following each other online for a while. But I think it's time for everyone to get to know you a bit more. So yeah, do you want to tell my listeners a bit about you and what they should know before we jump into some questions? Absolutely. I'm so happy to be here speaking with you. I think the number one thing is that so I'm a clinical psychologist. I work here and I see couples and individuals in New York City. And one of the biggest things I see. Is couples usually coming into therapy at the end of the rope? And I think it gives you a unique perspective of what people are struggling with when things get that bad. And I think that perspective gives me a unique insight of what couples can work on retroactively or kind of retrospectively in terms of kind of avoiding getting to that really like danger zone. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the whole podcast was created for that reason. I'm a divorce attorney and I write books and I was always so fascinated about what happens after, you know, keeping families together post divorce or separation. But then I thought, what about, you know, before it all breaks down? And how do we, you know, help families and relationships repair and reconnect rather than always break? So yeah, I guess I'm interested in what happens before the relationship reaches crisis. So from a psychological perspective, what do you think that couples often miss before they realize something's really wrong? Great question. I think It starts with just validating that it makes total sense that you would miss it because problems don't always seem so apparent on the surface. They often look like a distance or like kind of just slowly avoiding the thing that you don't like dealing with until it accumulates so much that it becomes part of the dynamic of how you relate to each other. And so couples are often very good at keeping track of the protest, which are like the fights and the arguments. But they're not as good as keeping track of the withdrawal that follows it. So the withdrawal, it's so much easier to miss. It's usually quiet. You can easily ignore it. Instead of kind of labeling it more accurately, which I see it as this very dishonest harmony that gets created in a relationship. And I see that as so much more dangerous than an argument that could actually lead to a bigger resolution. Yeah, I often think that the silence is really when we're at that. pointy end of a relationship, you know, at least if you're having the conversations and there's communication, there is that chance to repair and talk about what's going on. But I always worry that silence turns into resentment. What do you think the difference is between a relationship that's peaceful as opposed to a relationship that is simply gone quiet? I think that's a hard question because they can look very similar from the outside. So I would say one, the fact that you might be questioning that means you should listen to your gut. But ultimately, I think peace will come from a resolved cycle of conflict or you feel like everything is okay. You feel complete. I think we it feels like we know each other well or we've given each other what we need or we don't feel chronically like we're in survival mode or begging kind of for the bare minimum or like yelling into the void. But I on the other side, I would say quiet is more like we keep on repeating this cycle and we never feels like we're getting any resolution. It's never solved. And it's almost like the quiet is us giving up. Like I would say also the the test to know between them is are you still kind of reaching for the other person in those quiet moments and The harder moments or when you feel most alone or stressed, or have you just completely stopped trying? Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, a lot of the couples I work with, they often say that they reach that point where, you know, something exciting will happen in their lives. And rather than reaching for the person, you know, their loved one or their partner to tell, they're looking for someone else, or they're excited to tell a friend or a family member or, you know, a work colleague. And I think that's one of the biggest red flags that to start off with when you're not searching or you're not looking for your loved one to tell some news to. Why do you think so many couples these days are avoiding conversations and communication that really matters most? I think we learn in a way that silence is a protective mechanism. we see it as a problem ultimately, but I think if you've ever kind of swallowed the truth to keep the peace, you realize that You're kind of protecting the bond in the only way that you know how. I don't think we can kind of like demonize the silence. It's almost like this way that you learn to keep the harmony, even for a little bit, even though it keeps you alive. And for a lot of people, that avoidance, it's inborn like we learn it as kids and families in which nothing gets resolved, everything's kind of swept under the rug. And then it just becomes our primary mode of operating in arguments. Yeah. That makes sense. absolutely. I think so. What do you think that You know, in couples and relationships, what are people usually protecting when they're avoiding telling their partner the truth or they're avoiding having a particular conversation with their partner? I think when you really do an autopsy on avoidance in partners, it's almost always underneath that this fear that the truth is gonna cost you the entire relationship. And so there's something very scary about the truth or your needs or your take on a situation and feeling like that's just gonna completely blur break the relationship. So silence and avoidance is actually like the the band-aid that's holding the relationship together. And so the the goal here isn't to force couples to kind of give each other the truth. It's instead to find a way to make the relationship feel safe enough. So when you're sharing your truth or something that's really important to you, it doesn't feel like you're risking anything. Yeah, I guess it's yeah, you're right. It's that fear of I'm about to blow things up, I'm better off just not maybe saying anything. what tools or resources would you say couples could put in place, so that you know they have that safe space to be able to have these conversations, the hard ones that they're avoiding or the ones that perhaps they're not having so that they're not blowing up their entire relationship. Yeah, I would say it it starts. With understanding what's really at stake here, that we don't necessarily hide the truth from people that we trust. We hide it from people that we're afraid of losing or people that we don't think will accept us if we're honest or people that make us feel like the relationship is conditional if we're being too much. So one, it's first understanding that trust is really ruptured. And then two, it's finding a way to create that trust. So that would mean reaching for each other, realizing where are we going silent. And how can I be more honest or more direct with my partner? Yeah, that's interesting. Do you think these sorts of things are normal in relationships? I often speak to couples who say, you know, gosh, we're so different, or why me? You know, why are these things happening? But the more I speak to people and the more I research for my book and for this podcast, it all seems fairly normal in this day and age. Is it something that you're just seeing more and more, particularly in your work? Yeah, I think. One, I'm seeing more and more younger people reach out for couples therapy before they even get married to say, is this is this good? We're doing like a pulse check. Do we want to keep on moving forward? Which I think is really fascinating. And I think it's a reflection of people realizing crack starting a relationship from very early on. Being with another human being, we're all falluble. And then combining two people's needs and worlds, it's such a complicated process. So of course there's gonna be challenges there. And I think the hard part is when we avoid the challenges or we just kind of give up and we say, this is an area that we struggle with and we're just not even going to work on it. We're not going to look at it. We're just going to close down and say, you know, we are too high conflict. We've had too many arguments. So we're better off, you know, taking our separate ways. And yeah, I'm a big believer that I think we do need to work on it. But I'm curious because I agree. I'm also hearing about a lot of couples engaging in therapy and counseling much earlier. what are your views? Do you say you know, come and see someone like you early on, before the big cracks start to appear, before there are those bigger issues, or do you wait until you have those issues and then you're at that breaking point? yeah, I I'm curious. I think most people unfortunately go to couples therapy when they feel like there is absolutely no other option on the table and they've been in this deadlock for years or much longer. And they feel like, okay, this is the last stop before divorce or breaking up. And unfortunately, it feels like there's so much resentment and frustration that's built up that whatever reason brought them into therapy, it feels like it's just the tip of the iceberg. And so I would say you don't necessarily need to go to couples therapy, but once you notice the beginning of these dynamics starting or the beginning of you kind of pulling away or not being able to deal with a situation or a dynamic or topic, that's actually your sign to work on it further, to say, wait, I actually need to sit in this. And I think unfortunately we're so much more intolerant of discomfort or friction that we're we're just so primed to kind of turning away from the things that are hard and our relationships are really suffering for them, or they're becoming more disposable. Yeah, I think it's just the easier option, run away, be done with it, you know, sort of cut your losses. but I suppose if you start the process early on in your relationship, whether you know you're just living together or you are marrying, Is that the time then you know you're seeing someone, you're working together, and the idea is to have tools in place, whether it's, you know, some sort of communication protocol or you have that framework in place for okay, we feel pretty structured now that if we do start coming into conflict or there's something that either of us is feeling uncomfortable about or unhappy about, or that silence starts, that you then have those tools in place. Is that the right approach? Do you think? Absolutely. Yeah. So I think it could be helpful. One for couples to identify their fighting styles because that's when a lot of communication breaks down. A lot of people are fight dirty. So they may do low blows or they might kind of use their partner's vulnerabilities or most kind of deepest wounds against them in moments of conflict. So one, it's to identify maybe what you do that's not so helpful in moments of high conflict. And then two, get out of that kind of polarized. dyad. So, like, for example, the most common position that couples find themselves in is the pursuer withdrawal dynamic, in which the pursuer feels like they're not getting their needs met and they're pursuing their other partner, albeit in the absolute worst way possible. They're criticizing, they're judging, they're they're telling their partner all the ways in which they're failing. And then their partner, what do they do? They hear that and they run away. It's too much for them, it's overwhelming. And so That cycle just becomes more and more intense. And the more couples can understand their role in it, the more they can actually go towards each other. Yeah, that is so interesting. Why why do you think that we do that as humans? We go for the low blow, or when we feel attacked, you know, our first instinct is rather than saying, let's come together and talk through this, I'm just gonna think of the absolute worst thing I can about you and tell you, you know, and criticize you. And and you know, there's so much hatred that comes out. Why does that happen? I think. We regress a lot in the relationships closest to us. I mean, how could we not? They activate our most primary attachment system. And in that, unfortunately, a lot of couples regress into this competition of racing to occupy the victim role. And in that role, it's like there are no real winners, but there's this elusive winner in the person that feels like, as long as I can kind of prove that I'm right or I'm the victim here, then you're the perpetrator. But in doing so and in winning, they're kind of really hurting their partner. And then it just becomes a vicious cycle. Yeah, you're entirely right. And it is a cycle because then I think you're feeling the guilt. And then we talk about how do we come back from that. So let's talk about guilt for a bit. How does guilt show up in relationships? Yeah, I think we've all felt guilt in different ways, given what we just spoke about. Like we all hurt the people closest to us, even though we don't necessarily mean to. And so I think After we feel guilt, oftentimes we will find some way to like get rid of it, like hot potato. And so guilt is a very uncomfortable emotion to sit with, and we'll get rid of it in almost any way possible. And the the most common way to get rid of it is by creating more distance from that person. So if someone's making me feel guilt because of how I treated them or something that I did that makes me feel bad about myself, I'm gonna get as far away as possible. So I don't have that emotion in me. And instead, basically of everything we're talking about. Today. The healthier mood is actually to turn toward your partner with that guilt because the closeness is actually the the antidote there. Yeah. Gosh, I feel like I'm learning so much today. And I need to go be a big person in relationships. Wha why do you think, I mean, do you think guilt makes people then withdraw as opposed to repair? Yeah, I I would say one of the most like miss kind of known or one of the most like misconceptions about grief is that I mean guilt is that it doesn't mean you don't necessarily care. It means that your guilt is so heavy that you can no longer sit with it and you have to get away. And so a lot of people have unprocessed guilt. And when you're not sitting with it, when you're not able to really move through it, it becomes shame very easily. And shame, its whole survival strategy is just to hide. And that becomes very dangerous for your connection because you're more focused on self-protection and hiding than being close to your partner. Yeah. And again, returning. And I guess what I'm hearing from you through all of these different, I guess, topics or I don't know what you call them, emotions, all these issues that are coming up in relationships, the easier option seems to keep being to run the flight, to to leave the relationship because of, you know, that self-protection or that guilt or that conflict or whatever it might be. And it seems that there isn't as much eagerness to return and repair because that is the harder work. let's talk a bit more about relationships generally. So tell me, what do you think happens when someone starts feeling, you know, more seen, more heard, more emotionally alive outside of the relationship rather than in it, because that's something I'm seeing a lot these days with the people that I work with. Definitely. And I think that's also a very common experience. Our grandparents or people of generations passed, they've relied on the entire community to meet their needs. And now we're much more isolated and we expect our partner to meet the needs of an entire village in the past. So I would say the feeling of being fulfilled by someone else outside of your relationship isn't necessarily a betrayal, but it's very valuable information. And I think instead of judging ourselves or trying to shutting it down or keeping it a secret, it deserves more curiosity instead of shame or blame. So I would say it usually means that there's this unmet emotional need that you finally found somewhere to land outside of your partner. And usually it's someone giving you attention or they're giving you admiration or maybe they're just really listening to you. Yeah. I guess like in the workplace you have people who are similar minded. So you, you know, you open up and you have those conversations with them that perhaps you can't have at home. But do you think there's perhaps that distinction between sort of feeling seen and heard and having conversations and then really attaching onto someone perhaps outside of the relationship? And then that thin line between just a relationship or, you know, an entire emotional affair, perhaps? Yeah. So I would say an emotional affair, it it's not just in one act like a physical affair. It's usually where you are diverting your emotional energy or you being more vulnerable. and it's usually going outside of your partner. So the distinction here is really if it happens in secret versus if it's open. So secrecy is usually what turns that investment of energy of just having this connection with someone else versus a betrayal. So it's not just about who you talk to outside of the relationship. It's also who you stop talking to, which is your partner. That's interesting. And I guess what would you say then the line is between just a friendship or someone you're seeking out to speak to and then a complete emotional betrayal? So I wouldn't say it's really the intensity or the closeness that you feel with a friend. It's it's really the transparency that you feel if your partner has full visibility into that relationship. So I would ask that person, would you feel really safe showing your partner every message that you spoke that you had with this person? And if not, Some part of you knows that line's already been crossed. I would say also secrecy, it's never really present in an innocent friendship. And that's the bigger tell. I love that. And you're entirely right. As soon as those warning signs, I guess, start coming, which is, you know, who are you speaking to? it's no one, or who was there? It was no one. And the phone starts getting turned over or gets starting, you know, put away, or the person's carrying their phone into every room, the bathroom, et cetera. Perhaps there's some warning signs too. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think we we rationalize it when we see them in the beginning and then retrospectively becomes very clear. Yeah. And I think they drive the other person crazy because you think, Am I seeing this? Is it real? Am I overreacting? And then there's that line of do I become that person that raises it with my partner? Or is that going to blow things up? Does that make me look crazy and I'm creating issues out of nothing? And I think perhaps that other person then starts to avoid it and resent, perhaps, or just Become quiet, like we spoke about before, rather than, yeah, discuss the issue. Absolutely. And then that can be this whole other secondary trauma of sitting with this. And a lot of people talk about when they're before they confront the emotional affair, they they feel it in their bodies. And often they'll have a lot of somatic symptoms of their body really keeping the score and and kind of paying the price of that secrecy. Yeah. Well, the body often knows before the mind does, right? Definitely. Yeah. Do you think emotional affairs begin with intention, or not always, or do they just grow out of, you know, unmet needs or avoidance? I I truly believe in working with so many people who have committed affairs that almost none of them set out to intentionally betray their partner. And I think having that perspective, it gives more compassion, but also the desire for accountability. In this situation. So I would say it's it's rarely just one decision. It's usually a hundred death by a thousand paper cuts. And I think it's a slow progression of each decision is slightly more permissive than the last. I see it more as like slowly drifting away from the primary bond, one mut unmet need at a time. And it's not just like one single moment. Yeah. No, I agree with that. But I guess once you've done that, you've pursued some sort of whether it's a physical or an emotional affair. And these days I think I could be wrong, but I think we're seeing a lot more emotional affairs. Do you think that reveals something about the primary relationship? I think yes and no, yes, and that there are so many more opportunities for like emotional leakage of intimacy when it comes to social media, when it comes to really like the infinite ways in which we can connect with people outside of our partner. But I I think also you're right that people are it's one like the ease of access of these affairs, but also the lack of turning towards our partners. And I think they don't have to be exclusive. I think that they work together. Yeah, I think you're entirely right. And I do agree that these days social media technology plays such a big part because there's that constant access, right? you can be lying in bed beside your partner and speaking to we have no idea who, right? And your partner has no idea or it's so much easier perhaps to set up the time to meet or to have the chat or to send the inappropriate photo. And maybe the generations before us, you know, our parents and grandparents, they weren't dealing with that. There was no accessibility and it wasn't so easy to find someone to speak to. Do you see this in your work? You know, the technology, social media creating all of these issues and and yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So you're totally right. In the past, cheating used to be a crime of opportunity. You had to be in the bar in the happy hour on the work trip. And now it can be happening on the couch right next to you. And so I I would say not only is it more prevalent, but there's such a bigger gray area when it comes to micro cheating and people having different definitions of what that is, is liking a stranger's photo micro cheating or is DMing them or sending them a message. And I think People have very different meanings. And I would say it's not just about the act, it's the intention and the secrecy that surrounds it. Yeah, you're so right. Because we start judging, or perhaps, you know, again, you drive yourself mad as the partner saying, no, my, you know, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend liked so and so's photo. I can see they keep going on their page. That could just be a bit of curiosity. That doesn't necessarily mean ill intent, right? But yeah, I think you're really right. It's that. It's the secrecy, it's the not wanting to know, it's, you know, I'm deleting my search history. And that's when I think perhaps it crosses the line. Absolutely. Talk to me. What do you think some of the early signs are that resentment, because it's a big one in relationships and we speak a lot about it on this podcast? The signs when resentment's starting to harden perhaps into contempt. So contempt, according to Gottman, he has four horsemen of the apocalypse, and contempt is the absolute worst one. So I would say that's when partners I subscribe more to EFT, emotions focused therapy. Sure. And in EFT language, the whole idea is that you stop turning towards your partner. So contempt is usually the most predictive factor in which couples are gonna divorce. And I would say you see that on the surface where they Are no longer trying to understand the other. They're no longer giving each other the benefit of the doubt. They're no longer imbuing positive intent in their partner. And instead, it's like you're already expecting the worst case scenario or you're expecting them to hurt you or kind of imagine the worst in you. It's like we talked about kind of fighting styles. Both partners, they have their their boxing gloves on at all times. Yeah. And I guess tying on from that. similar to fighting styles, do you think attachment styles or attachment patterns, you know, shape the way that people handle conflict or distance or repair? I have a unique view on attachment styles. I think that we have a primary attachment style based on the parent attachment style that we grew up with. So if you have a very avoidant or unpredictable parent, you likely will be more anxious because you just never know if they're gonna be there or not. You're gonna kind of cling on harder. Yeah. But but I would say that you might have that kind of parent and attachment style. And then as you're older, maybe you're more attracted subconsciously to partners who are more avoidant if you're more attached, if you're more anxious. But most people are actually more in the middle. They they lean in the secure category and then they will sway depending on who they're attached to. And usually partners' dyads, let's say you're married for 30 years, you both will will have each role. One person could be the more Avoidant and then the other anxious and then you might switch. And so I would say they're not as fixed as people often believe. And we're much more healthy and flexible than we believe. We're not always stuck in these fixed roles. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess in your work, are you seeing more and more of this? Or do you see people often confusing perhaps their own anxiety or overwhelmed or their own mental health with relationship dissatisfaction? I think that people People are very burnt out with the current landscape of dating when it comes to dating apps and reliance on them. People are also burnt out with the strategy of dating. People are feeling more disposable. And in that way, people are less willing to put themselves out there and be vulnerable. So it's much more defensive dating. And because of that, I think people are just becoming more avoidant. They're not may they might be anxious initially, but they're. they're almost like through time and repetition, they're not allowing themselves to get more vulnerable. So I'm seeing a lot more avoidance in the dating pool. Yeah. And do you think it's that people are coming to you to talk about these issues when they're at that point of the you know, over overwhelm or the avoidance or once trust has been broken, or is it a different stage where they're just looking, you know, for tools as to how to better communicate or how to keep things going? I think that we often have like a trajectory. We might be really anxious at first if we feel like a partner isn't meeting our needs or we're trying really hard to make it work. And anxiety can be adaptive in some ways at lower levels to make us really motivated and to try different strategies. But if we are chronically anxious and chronically not getting what we need from our partner, we're gonna be exhausted. And that's where you see people give up and kind of stop protesting. And that's where you see a lot of the silence and avoidance. I think so. I think you're entirely right. Do you think also it's a difficulty that, you know, once trust has been broken, some people avoid and break down and give up? Or, you know, some put in the hard work and repair in your experience and in your view, once trust has been broken, what does real repair require? I think that's the real hard part that once there's been a big betrayal, the old relationship is dead and it's never coming back. And it can be really hard to mourn the relationship you thought you had with your partner. But trust absolutely can be rebuilt if you are able to one acknowledge what happened and two, say exactly what happened. There has to be no more secrets around the betrayal. And then three, hopefully build something much more honest and new with your partner. And that is hopefully the silver lining that what you had maybe it wasn't what you thought it was, but now you can build something much more real together. Yeah. I I think that's right. And I guess that leads me to two questions because I guess you have two people in the situation. One, you have the person who perhaps caused the harm. And you know, they have to sit with the guilt and and not become defensive or self-punishing. And that just creates conflict. But then you have the hurt partner who's trying to understand what happened, but we don't want them to have to excuse it necessarily. How do you juggle that dynamic? That is such a great question, and one that I see a lot of couples struggle with because the partner who cheated or caused the betrayal. And then there's the partner who's the victim who is learning about this betrayal. They usually do a reversal, which people don't talk so much about. And usually what happens is the partner who is betrayed, they become the perpetrator. They have so much anger and resentment. And it feels like there's no way to kind of get that out. And it's almost like they want to subconsciously punish the partner that betrayed them. And I see that that's I'm not saying it's all their fault, but it's definitely co-constructed this dam it, this dynamic. And the partner who felt betrayed, they in turn in turn sometimes they sabotage the relationship. They can't control their anger and they can't help but kind of punish their partner. Yeah, I I see that as well a lot. And that is why a lot of people end up obviously at my office. But do you think a relationship can become stronger after there's been some big rupture or some, you know, big You know, I want to call it a blow-up, but something that really blew up the relationship. Or does it really just depend on that individual couple and what they're willing to face and work with? Absolutely, because I've seen it happen. And I think it's a harder thing to believe, but usually it takes a lot of time and you need evidence to feel like this is going to be different or something's changed. And the couples that I've seen really work through this in a beautiful way, they've not, it's not just the betrayal, it's healing with that pain together, but it's also seeing. them turn towards each other. That physical or emotional betrayal is the tip of the iceberg. There's usually a lot that precedes it. And what usually precedes it is partners avoiding each other, not feeling like they're enough, good enough, or there's some unmet need outside the relationship. And so that's when you see couples actually come closer, when they're honest with each other, when they have hard conversations, if they're willing to be seen in areas that they would usually hide or feel shame around. And that's when you can really rebuild trust, when you're willing to show your partner the uglier sides or the harder sides to to show them. Yeah, I think that is such an important message. And what I'm really hearing today is everything really does come down to that transparency and honesty and the removal of secrecy and I guess the willingness to be open and to be transparent and then to repair. So yeah, I guess the final question I ask everyone on before it breaks, depending on your expertise and you know your experience and everybody you've worked with. What do you say that a conversation is that couples should have before that, you know, they reach that point of betrayal or shutdown or emotional exit? Yeah, if you've never asked your partner this, it's never too late to have these conversations and asking it now could change what comes next for the two of you. So the question is very simple and rarely do we actually have the courage to ask it. And that's where have I stopped telling you the truth, even in small ways? And the truth isn't necessarily lies, but where have I stopped sharing my vulnerability or my pain or the harder emotions or needs that I have? What area in our relationship have I really lost trust in you and in your ability to be there for me? That is so important. and I feel that. I feel it in my own relationship. I feel that, you know, with the people I work with and I think it's really, really sensible and clever advice. Yeah, g because I think ultimately the best relationships, they're not the ones without disappointments and letting each other down. Like that's absolutely inevitable in life. But the best relationships are the ones that approach these obstacles and they don't just give up. They keep on finding a way forward. Yeah, you're entirely right. I think it's just so easy today to give up, to walk away because everyone thinks the grass is greener, there are other options. I don't have to put in the hard work, but it's really when we sit with ourselves and what I'm learning from you is doing that internal work individually and then, together that I think you do have a chance to to work on a relationship together and to come back and reconnect before you repair. So thank you for sharing your views with me and the listeners. I have learned so much from our conversation. I'm so grateful for the time that you have shared with us today and for teaching everyone so much because I do think that there is. So much to learn about relationships. We don't know enough, and everyone's learning. And you know, as as the years go on, I think things keep changing too. And we're going have so many issues to deal with that perhaps we haven't experienced in the past, and other generations haven't either. Absolutely. Yes. I think that there's so much more to come. And as we evolve as a culture and society, our relationships will too. And it was so lovely speaking with you today. Thank you for having me. What I've learned today from my conversation with Dr. Sabrina Romanoff is that so many relationships don't break from one dramatic moment. They break from the conversations that don't happen. They break from the needs that were never named. They break from the loneliness that someone didn't know how to explain. They break when a person starts feeling more emotionally alive outside the relationship than inside it. And they break when guilt turns into silence and silence turns into distance. So today we spoke all about emotional affairs and guilt, avoidance, attachment, rebuilding trust, and why so many people and couples wait until something has already ruptured before they finally tell the truth. This really was a conversation about the psychology underneath modern relationship breakdown. I think it's something that we don't. speak enough about, there's not enough information about. And I think we need to start having better discussions about what couples need to notice before silence becomes the entire relationship. I'm Gabriella Pomare and this is before it breaks.