Insights from Trauma with Marcus Engel

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Pioneer Knowledge Services welcomes you to the next
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Because You Need to Know. I'm your host,
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Edwin k Morris. I serve as president and
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founder of this organization, and we are thrilled
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to offer this educational program. These design conversations
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bring you people's experiences and
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I
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and I am coming to you from my
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home office in Orlando, Florida.
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There's a couple of interesting things near me,
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and near me is always a bit of
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a subjective term.
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I guess the most interesting things that are
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near me right now, number one, there is
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an unopened
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bag of sage bundles
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that are about a foot away from my
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keyboard
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for cleansing the house spiritually whenever I do
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that. What I hope is the other interesting
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thing that is close to me is one
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of my books, which is called The Other
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End of the Stethoscope.
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It's a memoir, and it's about really traumatic
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time in my life. It's also the most
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recent book that I've read because
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not that I'm narcissistic and have to go
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read my own work,
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but we are just putting out an audible
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copy
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of the other end of the stethoscope.
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We're doing it with artificial intelligence and voice
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cloning so that I don't have to actually
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read the book into the microphone, but it
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still comes out my voice. So tell me
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who a mentor is for you. So a
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mentor. The first thing that I think of
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is my
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official mentor.
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Once I got out of college, I started
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speaking
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professionally.
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One of my mentors was a customer service
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speaker named Shep Hyken.
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Shep was the one who really showed me
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how to turn my personal
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story
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and
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trauma
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into
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something that could help other people and I
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could make a living
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at at the same time.
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So Shep was officially a mentor, but I've
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had so many other ones.
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Growing up in small town America, I was
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involved in all types of high school activities.
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So my football coaches, some of my teachers,
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one of my advisors from college, I've just
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had so many mentors
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that have poured into me, and I, in
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turn, been able to pour into other people.
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And that's super rewarding to be able to
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see somebody take your mentorship
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and actually
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put it to good use. Well, thanks for
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bringing that all up. I totally agree. If
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you were stuck on an island, what were
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the three must have things you need?
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Stuck on a deserted island, what are three
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must things I must have?
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Obviously, food and water and shelter.
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But
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beyond that,
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I would certainly hope that I could still
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have an iPhone and access to the Internet.
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That's because,
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I do all of my data consumption and
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all of my reading
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through an electronic device.
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And so I'd I'd kinda need that still.
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What's your biggest hope? My biggest hope is
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to leave this world a more compassionate
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place than I found it.
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So your wealth of experience
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in trauma
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has
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actually been a jumping off point into a
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whole new world. Yeah.
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You could say that.
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My life
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has taken some dramatic turns, some 80 degree
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turns. Yeah. As a young man in Missouri,
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I I don't know. I was just a
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normal kid. Right? I only knew what I
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knew, and I didn't have a whole lot
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of experience outside of my small town world.
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Whenever I started college, about six weeks into
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my freshman year of college, I came home
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for the weekend and
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went to a St. Louis Blues hockey game
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on a Saturday night with three friends that
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I had met at church camp. On our
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way home from that hockey game, my friends
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and I got broadsided by a drunk driver.
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That crash not only took 100%
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of my sight instantaneously
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and totally and permanently.
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I also received what is called a LaForte
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three fracture,
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which LaForte three is a surgical term, and
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it pretty much means that everything between the
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hairline and the chin has been crushed.
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Lots and lots of surgery. I've I've laid
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on an Operating Room table for well over
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three hundred hours,
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months of hospitalization
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and rehab.
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It's led me into doing
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what I do now because when you've had
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as much experience
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at the other end of the stethoscope as
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I've had, you've seen the good, the bad,
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and the profound
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in patient care.
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Those good stories and even the bad stories
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we can learn from, and that's what my
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work is, is to teach health care professionals
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what are the little things that we can
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do to help patients retain their their dignity,
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their independence,
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their holistic self while they are healing. Well,
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trauma
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do you think the word trauma gets kind
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of overused
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a little bit, you know, in just general
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sense and socials you know? Oh, I'm wounded.
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I'm I I have trauma.
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Or is just the elevation of what trauma
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is very self dependently defined? I think it
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is self defined because, obviously,
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what may be traumatic for me, and I'm
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talking a small emotional trauma, say, that I
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get in an argument with a family member
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or something like that. Yeah. That hurts me
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deeply, and I carry that trauma. Yeah. Whereas
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somebody else can walk the other person can
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walk away from that not feeling traumatized
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at all. So it's a sensitivity.
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Sure. Personal sensitivities
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to things. Similar to, it's cold in here.
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Well, I'm not cold. It's hot in here.
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It's very subjective. Sure. I wanna pull up
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a definition. Webster says trauma is an injury,
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to living tissue caused by an extrinsic
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force
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or agent.
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And this is the did you know, which
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I love in Merriam. They're they add more
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data to the word.
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Trauma is the Greek word for wound. Although
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the Greeks use the term only for physical
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injuries,
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nowadays, trauma is likely to refer to emotional
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wounds. That gets into the realm of the
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psychic or the psyche
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of what's woundful or sensitive to you, and
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everybody's different. Sure. So how do you think
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organizations
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and I'm gonna bring this back to communities
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or organizations of people, either way.
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How does an organization
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one side, bring up it's good to be
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sensitive, but then
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kinda balance that out with we can't be
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super sensitive to everything, or or is that
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a even a thing to try to get
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to? Well,
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right. This brings up a a really interesting
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question, and I work with those caregivers at
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the bedside. Typically, my audiences,
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my people are
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any of those people who physically lay hands
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on a patient.
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And
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they have to balance things. How do I
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care about this patient
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physically? How do I help them get all
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their physical needs met while they're under my
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care?
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And then
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emotionally, can I help them too? And what
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I really try to
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inspire in my audiences
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is that the balance can come just from
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being patient. Mhmm. The balance can come just
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from taking an extra moment because there have
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been studies that talk about how if
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patient and the doctor sits down, that that
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patient perceives that that doctor
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was in their room for a lot longer
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than they were. The doctor may have only
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been in their room for a lot longer
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than they were. The doctor may have only
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been in their room for
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a lot longer than they were. The doctor
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may have only been in their room sitting
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down for ninety seconds, but the patient perceived
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it to be four or five minutes. When
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we can take just a little bit of
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time and step out of
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the busyness of life
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to be present in the moment with that
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patient,
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that's what I'm trying to get healthcare professionals
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to do, to slow down a little bit,
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to be able to take care of that
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patient so you're not balancing
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a hundred tasks that you have to do
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in an hour. You can really focus on
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the holistic healing of that patient. Well, that
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takes a skill of personal control because you're
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talking about a Zen master type of ability
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that allows yourself to be present
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and not frazzled by the 75 other things
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going on that day. Sure. Well, it sounds
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real easy, but how do you do it?
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Right. Right. And you're right. A Zen master
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would do it perfectly, but,
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unfortunately, none of us are
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are Zen masters. As much as I try,
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as much meditation as I can as I
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do, I can't claim that title.
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But what I can do is remind people
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just the little ways that they can be
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present. There is
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a doctor at Vanderbilt University. She is also
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a nun.
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She has a process
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of knocking on a patient's door, dipping her
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head, saying the fastest,
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hail Mary in the world before she steps
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in to speak with every patient. And I
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think that is a centering practice.
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That's a centering practice. That's what we can
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do. In the world of overreactions
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and,
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everything's an issue,
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the practice
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of humanity
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takes some work. And when everybody is frazzled
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by all things
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personally,
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it's hard to be outside of yourself in
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order to be centered.
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In my experience studying shamanism,
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it is a practice that takes work. I
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mean, it's just like going to the gym.
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If you don't go, it's not gonna get
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the results. And that mental model of your
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example
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with her
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having the process probably starts before she touches
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the handle or touches the door
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to turn that on, to turn on that
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rhythm and brings her to the focal point
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of now. Yes. So in an organization
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of or community and like with your nurses,
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how do you build the practice? How do
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you how do you train
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people? And it's kind of a protect themselves.
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Right? So it's a dual purpose. It protects
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them as a human
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and a soul on a planet, but it
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also brings better
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service to the client or the patient. So
277
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there's a few ways of doing this, and
278
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the way that I am most familiar with
279
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comes out of my academic
280
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background.
281
00:11:01,225 --> 00:11:02,825
So I have a master's in a field
282
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that's called narrative medicine.
283
00:11:04,985 --> 00:11:07,225
If you're not familiar with narrative medicine, it's
284
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not real surprising. There are only two narrative
285
00:11:09,865 --> 00:11:11,485
medicine programs in the country.
286
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,160
The one that I went to is at
287
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,539
Columbia University. I graduated in 2011
288
00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:19,160
and my class was only the third to
289
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,519
complete the master's level training program. And so
290
00:11:22,519 --> 00:11:25,160
it's still a very new and emerging field,
291
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,539
and it's a conglomeration
292
00:11:27,815 --> 00:11:31,115
of medicine and healthcare and philosophy
293
00:11:31,495 --> 00:11:34,875
and social work and counseling and sociology
294
00:11:35,414 --> 00:11:36,235
and psychology
295
00:11:37,014 --> 00:11:37,754
and literature.
296
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What the ultimate purpose of narrative medicine
297
00:11:41,095 --> 00:11:41,595
was
298
00:11:41,909 --> 00:11:44,409
originally was to help doctors
299
00:11:45,509 --> 00:11:47,769
learn how to deeply listen
300
00:11:48,070 --> 00:11:49,049
to their patients.
301
00:11:49,669 --> 00:11:52,889
So when a patient is giving a report
302
00:11:52,950 --> 00:11:53,850
about themselves,
303
00:11:54,524 --> 00:11:56,944
the doctor is picking up on the subtleties
304
00:11:57,084 --> 00:11:59,565
of what that patient is saying. And the
305
00:11:59,565 --> 00:12:01,804
doctor is learning how to ask open ended
306
00:12:01,804 --> 00:12:02,304
questions
307
00:12:03,164 --> 00:12:05,725
so that they can most effectively treat that
308
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patient.
309
00:12:07,429 --> 00:12:07,929
That's
310
00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:08,889
wonderful.
311
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:10,710
The thing of it is, I hang out
312
00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:11,370
with nurses,
313
00:12:11,830 --> 00:12:13,129
and I'm a businessman.
314
00:12:13,669 --> 00:12:14,169
So
315
00:12:14,549 --> 00:12:16,410
what I do with nurses
316
00:12:16,789 --> 00:12:19,769
is reflective writing and therapeutic journaling.
317
00:12:20,184 --> 00:12:22,264
And I based this all off of a
318
00:12:22,264 --> 00:12:22,764
study.
319
00:12:23,144 --> 00:12:26,105
It's a seminal study in therapeutic writing and
320
00:12:26,105 --> 00:12:27,865
journaling. Can I do you do you wanna
321
00:12:27,865 --> 00:12:29,384
hear about this? Because I think it's Yeah.
322
00:12:29,384 --> 00:12:31,065
No. I I think it's a fast I've
323
00:12:31,065 --> 00:12:32,285
never heard of the topic,
324
00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:34,759
and that's how people learn new things. So
325
00:12:34,759 --> 00:12:36,679
bring it on. So there is a social
326
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,340
psychologist in the state of Texas named James
327
00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:39,899
Pennebaker.
328
00:12:40,519 --> 00:12:43,240
Pennebaker did some of the original studies back
329
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,860
in the eighties of using writing and reflective
330
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:47,740
journaling
331
00:12:48,455 --> 00:12:49,674
to overcome
332
00:12:49,975 --> 00:12:52,794
trauma or to better process trauma.
333
00:12:53,415 --> 00:12:55,495
And so what he did is he took
334
00:12:55,495 --> 00:12:57,894
about 30 or 40 students, and all of
335
00:12:57,894 --> 00:12:59,355
these students reported
336
00:12:59,815 --> 00:13:02,720
that they had had some type of sexual
337
00:13:03,179 --> 00:13:05,659
trauma in their background. Mhmm. They didn't have
338
00:13:05,659 --> 00:13:07,679
to disclose what that was, but everybody
339
00:13:08,139 --> 00:13:10,379
had some type of sexual trauma in their
340
00:13:10,379 --> 00:13:13,199
background. Pennebaker brought these students together
341
00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:15,440
for four days in a row,
342
00:13:15,804 --> 00:13:18,144
twenty minutes at a time for four days.
343
00:13:18,684 --> 00:13:20,945
On the first day, he tasked these students
344
00:13:21,404 --> 00:13:24,205
to spend the next twenty minutes writing about
345
00:13:24,205 --> 00:13:25,264
the most traumatic,
346
00:13:26,125 --> 00:13:26,625
upsetting,
347
00:13:27,085 --> 00:13:27,585
horrific
348
00:13:28,549 --> 00:13:30,309
thing that you've ever been through. Okay. And
349
00:13:30,309 --> 00:13:32,629
they wrote on that for twenty minutes, and
350
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:34,009
then everybody went home.
351
00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:36,570
Day number two, they brought them back.
352
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:39,669
Second verse, same as the first. Write for
353
00:13:39,669 --> 00:13:41,049
the next twenty minutes
354
00:13:41,445 --> 00:13:44,245
on the most horrible traumatic upsetting thing that's
355
00:13:44,245 --> 00:13:45,384
ever happened to you.
356
00:13:45,845 --> 00:13:48,644
Now, on day number two, you could write
357
00:13:48,644 --> 00:13:51,045
about that same event as you wrote about
358
00:13:51,045 --> 00:13:53,125
on day number one, or you could choose
359
00:13:53,125 --> 00:13:55,384
a totally different trial Okay. To write about.
360
00:13:55,629 --> 00:13:58,929
Third day, same thing. Fourth day, same thing.
361
00:13:59,149 --> 00:14:00,529
Write for twenty minutes
362
00:14:00,909 --> 00:14:02,990
about your trauma. And at the end of
363
00:14:02,990 --> 00:14:05,470
that study, they followed these students over the
364
00:14:05,470 --> 00:14:06,209
next semester,
365
00:14:06,909 --> 00:14:07,889
and the students
366
00:14:08,750 --> 00:14:10,689
had better academic performance,
367
00:14:11,695 --> 00:14:12,595
better interpersonal
368
00:14:13,054 --> 00:14:13,554
relationships,
369
00:14:14,575 --> 00:14:16,034
they had better health,
370
00:14:16,575 --> 00:14:17,154
which was
371
00:14:17,774 --> 00:14:19,934
how many times a student went to the
372
00:14:19,934 --> 00:14:21,075
campus infirmary
373
00:14:21,855 --> 00:14:24,414
over a semester, and these students who were
374
00:14:24,414 --> 00:14:26,334
in the part of the study went less
375
00:14:26,334 --> 00:14:26,834
often.
376
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,799
And so what Pennebaker and his colleagues discovered
377
00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:33,179
is it's often not so much the traumas
378
00:14:33,399 --> 00:14:34,700
that hold us back,
379
00:14:35,159 --> 00:14:36,959
it's the secret keeping
380
00:14:37,879 --> 00:14:38,860
about the traumas.
381
00:14:39,335 --> 00:14:41,254
When we write our traumas, we get to
382
00:14:41,254 --> 00:14:43,174
process them, and we get to tell tell
383
00:14:43,174 --> 00:14:44,774
them, and they come out of our heart,
384
00:14:44,774 --> 00:14:46,554
out of our brain, out of our psyche
385
00:14:47,174 --> 00:14:49,735
onto the paper. And in the writing, this
386
00:14:49,894 --> 00:14:52,315
the physical writing, long hand writing
387
00:14:52,855 --> 00:14:53,835
of our stories,
388
00:14:54,220 --> 00:14:56,299
we're working them out to where they don't
389
00:14:56,299 --> 00:14:59,279
have as much control over us psychologically. Yes.
390
00:14:59,740 --> 00:15:02,720
Yes. The impact of holding on to pains
391
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:06,639
of the past is a wound keeping element
392
00:15:06,779 --> 00:15:08,879
that keeps that energy there.
393
00:15:09,475 --> 00:15:11,815
And what you're speaking of is an exercise
394
00:15:11,875 --> 00:15:14,595
I've seen in various ways. But if you're
395
00:15:14,595 --> 00:15:16,134
an employee of an organization
396
00:15:17,075 --> 00:15:19,394
and you got wounds, you're holding on to
397
00:15:19,394 --> 00:15:21,475
these stories of, well, I I hate that
398
00:15:21,475 --> 00:15:23,320
guy because he's a a jerk or whatever
399
00:15:23,379 --> 00:15:25,220
the infraction is. Let's go back to what
400
00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:27,299
we said. Trauma is your perception of a
401
00:15:27,299 --> 00:15:27,799
wound.
402
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:29,700
That's what it is. So we're not to
403
00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:31,620
over educate it. We don't have to over
404
00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:35,000
complicate it. If you're able, in a holistic
405
00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:35,720
way,
406
00:15:36,365 --> 00:15:36,865
express
407
00:15:37,644 --> 00:15:38,625
that wound
408
00:15:39,004 --> 00:15:41,804
and express it outside of yourself, this works
409
00:15:41,804 --> 00:15:44,945
in conversation also, and you get it out,
410
00:15:45,404 --> 00:15:48,144
you're doing two things. You're telling the story
411
00:15:48,259 --> 00:15:51,240
of the whole nut roll. Right? You're basically
412
00:15:51,299 --> 00:15:53,879
representing that incident or wound,
413
00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:57,059
and then it's expressed outside of you. So
414
00:15:57,059 --> 00:15:58,279
you're witnessing
415
00:15:58,659 --> 00:16:01,700
you're providing witness to that. So it's out
416
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:04,120
of the dark and somebody can see it.
417
00:16:04,475 --> 00:16:07,215
That process in and of itself relieves
418
00:16:07,754 --> 00:16:09,455
a lot of the internal
419
00:16:09,995 --> 00:16:12,095
mechanisms that make it more
420
00:16:12,795 --> 00:16:15,695
bad than it should be. Not the discounter,
421
00:16:15,754 --> 00:16:19,029
but just to relieve the control it has
422
00:16:19,029 --> 00:16:22,309
over your physical and emotional self. Sure. It
423
00:16:22,309 --> 00:16:23,689
allows it to heal.
424
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:25,449
It allows it to
425
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:28,709
be less than, which is a positive. It
426
00:16:28,709 --> 00:16:31,044
is. It is. I like the people that
427
00:16:31,044 --> 00:16:33,125
I work with, the nurses, the doctors, the
428
00:16:33,125 --> 00:16:34,184
emergency crews,
429
00:16:34,644 --> 00:16:35,865
EMS, etcetera,
430
00:16:36,485 --> 00:16:37,865
these people witness
431
00:16:38,404 --> 00:16:39,625
so much
432
00:16:40,004 --> 00:16:42,584
human suffering on a daily basis.
433
00:16:43,329 --> 00:16:45,570
At certain points, it feels like it never
434
00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:46,070
ends.
435
00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:48,450
And when it feels like it never ends,
436
00:16:48,450 --> 00:16:50,610
like you're not making a difference, that's when
437
00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:52,309
compassion, fatigue, and burnout
438
00:16:52,690 --> 00:16:53,429
set in.
439
00:16:54,209 --> 00:16:54,709
Especially
440
00:16:55,009 --> 00:16:57,029
in the helping professions,
441
00:16:58,125 --> 00:16:59,985
I feel like this this reflection
442
00:17:00,445 --> 00:17:01,264
and storytelling
443
00:17:02,365 --> 00:17:04,144
is really, really necessary.
444
00:17:04,684 --> 00:17:07,244
I'm not naive enough to think that every
445
00:17:07,244 --> 00:17:09,325
nurse is going to go home at the
446
00:17:09,325 --> 00:17:11,565
end of their shift and write for twenty
447
00:17:11,565 --> 00:17:14,990
minutes. Right? That's probably not going to happen.
448
00:17:15,529 --> 00:17:17,369
So what I do is I just encourage
449
00:17:17,369 --> 00:17:20,009
nurses at the end of every shift, open
450
00:17:20,009 --> 00:17:21,929
up the notes app on your phone and
451
00:17:21,929 --> 00:17:24,569
write out the thing that was a win
452
00:17:24,569 --> 00:17:27,224
today. What was a win for you today?
453
00:17:27,224 --> 00:17:29,484
This patient gave me a heartfelt thank you.
454
00:17:29,625 --> 00:17:32,045
Okay. Great. Write that down. One sentence.
455
00:17:32,744 --> 00:17:35,164
And what is one thing that happened today
456
00:17:35,704 --> 00:17:37,884
that if it were to happen again tomorrow,
457
00:17:38,744 --> 00:17:40,365
you would do it differently?
458
00:17:40,750 --> 00:17:42,849
And so you write down a learning experience.
459
00:17:42,909 --> 00:17:45,710
Oh. And it doesn't take very long to
460
00:17:45,710 --> 00:17:48,990
put together a pretty nice fat stack of
461
00:17:48,990 --> 00:17:50,990
the good that you're doing. Right? You can
462
00:17:50,990 --> 00:17:52,990
look back over those notes and see the
463
00:17:52,990 --> 00:17:54,909
good that you're doing, see how much you're
464
00:17:54,909 --> 00:17:55,409
learning,
465
00:17:55,815 --> 00:17:58,615
keeps us engaged in the work. If you've
466
00:17:58,615 --> 00:18:00,214
ever been a patient and you've had a
467
00:18:00,214 --> 00:18:02,554
healthcare professional that was disengaged,
468
00:18:03,335 --> 00:18:05,755
that was bored or going through the motions
469
00:18:05,894 --> 00:18:08,774
or worse yet, even slightly cruel or what
470
00:18:08,774 --> 00:18:10,315
you perceive to be cruel,
471
00:18:10,909 --> 00:18:12,509
these are the kind of people that could
472
00:18:12,509 --> 00:18:14,130
still benefit from
473
00:18:14,669 --> 00:18:17,390
expressive and reflective writing. I wanna go back
474
00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:18,049
to your
475
00:18:18,509 --> 00:18:19,809
post accident.
476
00:18:20,190 --> 00:18:22,909
You shared with me this concept that caused
477
00:18:22,909 --> 00:18:23,569
the inspiration
478
00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:25,809
for you to keep going.
479
00:18:26,204 --> 00:18:28,284
Someone held your hand. Yeah. So can you
480
00:18:28,284 --> 00:18:31,085
tell me the story that helped that shift
481
00:18:31,085 --> 00:18:33,964
for you? So this really gets down to
482
00:18:34,125 --> 00:18:35,025
okay. Well,
483
00:18:35,484 --> 00:18:37,644
this is all nice and fine and good,
484
00:18:37,644 --> 00:18:39,400
but but how do we use it in
485
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,660
a practical sense? How do I use this
486
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:42,700
on the job?
487
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,799
What I always come back to is the
488
00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:47,180
essence of compassion
489
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,960
is what I received that first night in
490
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,259
the emergency department.
491
00:18:51,755 --> 00:18:53,434
That first night that they hauled me into
492
00:18:53,434 --> 00:18:54,654
the emergency room,
493
00:18:54,955 --> 00:18:55,455
luckily,
494
00:18:55,995 --> 00:18:58,795
the crash site was only about three miles
495
00:18:58,795 --> 00:19:00,975
away from a level one trauma center.
496
00:19:01,434 --> 00:19:03,375
Even with a distance that close,
497
00:19:03,674 --> 00:19:04,174
EMS
498
00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:06,750
still had to perform a cricothyrotomy
499
00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:09,230
in my throat in the field.
500
00:19:09,769 --> 00:19:10,910
Those are rarely,
501
00:19:11,210 --> 00:19:14,750
rarely done. Most paramedics will go their entire
502
00:19:14,809 --> 00:19:17,025
career and never have to do one. I
503
00:19:17,025 --> 00:19:18,865
was hanging by a string when they rolled
504
00:19:18,865 --> 00:19:20,484
me into the emergency room.
505
00:19:21,025 --> 00:19:24,224
There was a 20 year old patient care
506
00:19:24,224 --> 00:19:24,724
tech
507
00:19:25,025 --> 00:19:26,244
named Jennifer.
508
00:19:27,025 --> 00:19:28,164
Jennifer's assignment
509
00:19:29,025 --> 00:19:31,605
when I wasn't in surgery, Jennifer's assignment
510
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,680
was that she had to stay by my
511
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,500
bed and hold my hand. Wow. Yeah.
512
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:39,580
That was her assignment.
513
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,359
Maybe that was also to just make sure
514
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:43,420
I was still breathing,
515
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,200
but her assignment was to stay by my
516
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,525
bed and hold my hand. I was in
517
00:19:48,525 --> 00:19:49,505
and out of consciousness
518
00:19:49,805 --> 00:19:50,465
so much
519
00:19:50,845 --> 00:19:53,025
that whenever I would come back into consciousness,
520
00:19:53,164 --> 00:19:55,965
it was just this bludgeoning of pain and
521
00:19:55,965 --> 00:19:57,985
darkness and fear and terror.
522
00:19:58,845 --> 00:20:00,924
Jennifer held my hand, and every time she
523
00:20:00,924 --> 00:20:02,625
could tell that I was awake,
524
00:20:03,390 --> 00:20:05,710
she would say what I say are the
525
00:20:05,710 --> 00:20:08,349
two most comforting words any human being can
526
00:20:08,349 --> 00:20:11,170
say to another. Yeah. And those words are,
527
00:20:11,390 --> 00:20:14,109
I'm here. Yeah. I'm here. When we can
528
00:20:14,109 --> 00:20:17,835
truly be here, be there, be present for
529
00:20:17,835 --> 00:20:18,734
another person
530
00:20:19,434 --> 00:20:20,815
in their time of suffering
531
00:20:21,275 --> 00:20:23,755
Yeah. That's That's power right there. One of
532
00:20:23,755 --> 00:20:26,154
the other things that makes us human. And
533
00:20:26,154 --> 00:20:28,315
it walks us right into this friendly term
534
00:20:28,315 --> 00:20:30,414
you introduced me to called personalism.
535
00:20:31,259 --> 00:20:31,759
Personalism,
536
00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:33,119
the definition,
537
00:20:33,660 --> 00:20:36,720
a system of thought which maintains the primacy
538
00:20:37,019 --> 00:20:40,480
of the human or that reality has meaning
539
00:20:40,539 --> 00:20:41,599
only through
540
00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:43,200
the conscious mind.
541
00:20:44,404 --> 00:20:47,464
Personalism must be a bit of a ethos
542
00:20:47,684 --> 00:20:48,984
that you're working with.
543
00:20:49,684 --> 00:20:51,304
Yeah. Ethos and pathos.
544
00:20:51,684 --> 00:20:54,484
So I've been adjunct faculty at University of
545
00:20:54,484 --> 00:20:56,880
Notre Dame now for seven or eight years,
546
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,660
I guess. And I have the
547
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,359
the good fortune to teach pre meds, a
548
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:02,900
course that's called introduction
549
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,019
to personalism
550
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:05,220
and medicine.
551
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:06,580
Now personalism
552
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,059
is a term that's a little dated
553
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:10,180
these days.
554
00:21:10,654 --> 00:21:12,815
We probably wouldn't even use that term so
555
00:21:12,815 --> 00:21:15,315
much. We would use the term human experience.
556
00:21:16,095 --> 00:21:17,714
What is the human experience
557
00:21:18,174 --> 00:21:19,234
in medicine?
558
00:21:20,174 --> 00:21:22,174
I also bring that out of my patient
559
00:21:22,174 --> 00:21:25,519
experience work in hospitals. But the whole idea
560
00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:28,299
is if you've ever been to a doctor
561
00:21:28,299 --> 00:21:30,460
or a hospital and you felt like it
562
00:21:30,460 --> 00:21:33,019
was an assembly line, that's what we're working
563
00:21:33,019 --> 00:21:33,519
against.
564
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:36,299
This is the opposite of that assembly line.
565
00:21:36,299 --> 00:21:37,600
This is when a doctor
566
00:21:37,964 --> 00:21:40,285
has a moment to be able to connect
567
00:21:40,285 --> 00:21:42,704
with you on a personal humanistic
568
00:21:43,164 --> 00:21:43,664
level.
569
00:21:44,365 --> 00:21:47,825
What can they glean during that short interaction
570
00:21:49,005 --> 00:21:51,884
that helps the care team, the doctors, the
571
00:21:51,884 --> 00:21:52,865
nurses, etcetera,
572
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,240
see that patient in the bed as a
573
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:55,740
person,
574
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,420
not just a patient.
575
00:21:57,799 --> 00:21:59,880
That doesn't seem like we would have to
576
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,279
teach that. Two hundred years ago, would we
577
00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:04,440
have to teach that? Is is the culture
578
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:05,820
and society changed?
579
00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:09,134
Or and better yet, is there a society
580
00:22:09,134 --> 00:22:11,134
that that doesn't need to be taught? Is
581
00:22:11,134 --> 00:22:11,634
western
582
00:22:11,934 --> 00:22:13,694
medicine the only ones that have to learn
583
00:22:13,694 --> 00:22:15,154
that? I doubt it.
584
00:22:17,375 --> 00:22:19,375
Okay. I because I think if we look
585
00:22:19,375 --> 00:22:21,375
at if we look at eastern thought and
586
00:22:21,375 --> 00:22:24,330
religion, we go back thousands of years. There
587
00:22:24,330 --> 00:22:27,049
was still the anxious mind. There was still
588
00:22:27,049 --> 00:22:29,930
the monkey mind that everybody has that's bouncing
589
00:22:29,930 --> 00:22:30,589
all over.
590
00:22:31,130 --> 00:22:33,289
And when our monkey mind is bouncing all
591
00:22:33,289 --> 00:22:35,950
over, that means we're not in the moment
592
00:22:36,375 --> 00:22:39,335
present with what's going on right here, right
593
00:22:39,335 --> 00:22:39,835
now.
594
00:22:40,295 --> 00:22:42,214
I do feel like that this is somewhat
595
00:22:42,214 --> 00:22:43,115
a human
596
00:22:43,414 --> 00:22:45,734
trait that we all need to work on.
597
00:22:45,734 --> 00:22:48,789
Yeah. There's a Psychology Today article called the
598
00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:50,330
paradox of empathy
599
00:22:50,869 --> 00:22:52,950
dated 06/02/2024.
600
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:54,869
The first paragraph, I'm just gonna read. It's
601
00:22:54,869 --> 00:22:55,769
a short one.
602
00:22:56,070 --> 00:22:58,009
The more we care about someone,
603
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:59,769
the more difficult
604
00:23:00,070 --> 00:23:01,575
it is to help them.
605
00:23:02,054 --> 00:23:04,375
Oh. Despite our intentions of relieving their pain
606
00:23:04,375 --> 00:23:07,514
or suffering alongside them interferes with our capacity
607
00:23:07,654 --> 00:23:08,394
to be helpful.
608
00:23:08,774 --> 00:23:10,855
I guess I've seen that, maybe a little
609
00:23:10,855 --> 00:23:12,454
bit, or maybe we're just not good at
610
00:23:12,454 --> 00:23:14,954
being empathetic as a human on the planet.
611
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:17,269
Yeah. That's a good question. And where I'm
612
00:23:17,269 --> 00:23:19,509
thinking about that, whenever you're reading that, I'm
613
00:23:19,509 --> 00:23:21,210
thinking about professional distance
614
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:24,230
between nurses. Right? We want the nurse to
615
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:26,230
see that person in the bed as a
616
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:27,849
person, not just a patient.
617
00:23:28,644 --> 00:23:30,164
But on the other hand, I think this
618
00:23:30,164 --> 00:23:31,845
goes back to the balance that we were
619
00:23:31,845 --> 00:23:34,605
talking about in the beginning and probably what
620
00:23:34,605 --> 00:23:37,045
the rest of this article talks about. Can
621
00:23:37,045 --> 00:23:39,765
we care too deeply? Well, to a certain
622
00:23:39,765 --> 00:23:41,785
extent for hospital nurses,
623
00:23:42,430 --> 00:23:44,109
you're doing a lot of work, and it's
624
00:23:44,109 --> 00:23:45,809
not the only patient you have.
625
00:23:46,269 --> 00:23:49,470
To to pack as much of that care
626
00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:52,509
and compassion as you can in during the
627
00:23:52,509 --> 00:23:53,650
health care interaction,
628
00:23:54,525 --> 00:23:55,424
That is key.
629
00:23:56,125 --> 00:23:57,644
But how do we do that and still
630
00:23:57,644 --> 00:23:59,025
keep professional distance?
631
00:23:59,644 --> 00:24:02,125
Well, we humans are pretty good at forgetting
632
00:24:02,125 --> 00:24:02,625
things.
633
00:24:03,484 --> 00:24:05,484
If you ask a nurse, hey. Do you
634
00:24:05,484 --> 00:24:07,404
remember this patient that you had in here
635
00:24:07,404 --> 00:24:09,005
last week? There's a good chance that no,
636
00:24:09,005 --> 00:24:11,349
they're not gonna remember that patient because been
637
00:24:11,349 --> 00:24:13,750
a week ago, they've seen 40 other patients
638
00:24:13,750 --> 00:24:15,769
since that time. But how do we then
639
00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:17,049
balance
640
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:19,929
our empathy and our caring
641
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:22,809
without it going overboard?
642
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:24,890
I think professional caregivers
643
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:25,929
do that
644
00:24:26,265 --> 00:24:27,005
pretty well.
645
00:24:27,305 --> 00:24:29,065
And probably if they don't, that's where you
646
00:24:29,065 --> 00:24:31,144
get the burnout. Right? The frustration and the
647
00:24:31,144 --> 00:24:34,345
burnout because they're they're taking on more than
648
00:24:34,345 --> 00:24:37,005
they need to or don't have the barriers
649
00:24:37,305 --> 00:24:38,605
of self protection
650
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,240
set up to just keep that at a
651
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,799
distance. Mhmm. Because some people adopt other people's
652
00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:45,880
pain and suffering. Certainly. And then it becomes
653
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,880
their burden or it becomes a symptom in
654
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,720
them. And I sit there thinking too, you
655
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,119
know, this is not a moral failing of
656
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,484
people to get burnt out or have compassion
657
00:24:54,545 --> 00:24:55,045
fatigue
658
00:24:55,505 --> 00:24:57,664
or just be wrung out from their job.
659
00:24:57,664 --> 00:24:58,644
I mean, that happens
660
00:24:59,424 --> 00:25:03,184
in every profession. Right? Everybody is prone to
661
00:25:03,184 --> 00:25:04,244
burnout. Yeah.
662
00:25:05,025 --> 00:25:07,424
But it's super important that we keep coming
663
00:25:07,424 --> 00:25:09,579
back every day so that they can take
664
00:25:09,579 --> 00:25:11,259
care of people like me. Yeah. I would
665
00:25:11,259 --> 00:25:13,339
say probably in the medical field not knowing
666
00:25:13,339 --> 00:25:15,099
this, but just knowing I've been to a
667
00:25:15,099 --> 00:25:18,159
few emergency rooms. The people in emergency management
668
00:25:18,220 --> 00:25:20,539
or emergency response stuff has probably got a
669
00:25:20,539 --> 00:25:22,515
higher impact than the normal
670
00:25:22,974 --> 00:25:24,894
come into the office at five, and we'll
671
00:25:24,894 --> 00:25:26,894
fix that. Little bit different. Yeah. Right. The
672
00:25:26,894 --> 00:25:29,855
chaos itself, I know, creates a whole level
673
00:25:29,855 --> 00:25:30,355
of
674
00:25:30,734 --> 00:25:33,234
energy and but, gee whiz, I can't imagine
675
00:25:33,535 --> 00:25:36,174
somebody working in that environment for decades. Oh,
676
00:25:36,174 --> 00:25:37,394
yeah. Yeah.
677
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,519
In my most popular book, which is called
678
00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:43,960
I'm Here, Compassionate Communication and Patient Care, I
679
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,519
write a lot about my favorite nurse, Barb,
680
00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:47,259
who worked
681
00:25:47,559 --> 00:25:48,059
ICU
682
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:52,384
and plastics floor for forty two years. Wow.
683
00:25:52,384 --> 00:25:55,585
That's a lot of years. The same floor,
684
00:25:55,585 --> 00:25:58,545
same hospital for forty two years. That's something
685
00:25:58,545 --> 00:26:00,964
you don't find much these days. Right?
686
00:26:01,424 --> 00:26:02,325
That's amazing.
687
00:26:03,265 --> 00:26:05,684
No. Her story is she is just absolutely
688
00:26:05,825 --> 00:26:07,640
a nurse at at heart. She is a
689
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,259
compassionate human being.
690
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,339
She is a caregiver
691
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,859
at heart. The way she connected with me
692
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,319
when I first came under her care, I've
693
00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:18,839
been in the hospital for a week or
694
00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:20,325
two. I was just coming off of a
695
00:26:20,484 --> 00:26:22,424
twenty five hour facial reconstruction.
696
00:26:23,444 --> 00:26:25,044
One of the first things she did to
697
00:26:25,044 --> 00:26:26,505
me was ask me,
698
00:26:26,964 --> 00:26:28,744
do you want me to call you Marcus
699
00:26:29,284 --> 00:26:30,105
or Mark?
700
00:26:30,484 --> 00:26:31,924
Now keep in mind, at this point in
701
00:26:31,924 --> 00:26:33,830
time, my head is swollen up to the
702
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:35,830
size of a basketball. I've got a trach
703
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:37,750
in my throat. I've got my jaws wired
704
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:40,009
shut and my eyes sewn shut.
705
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:42,710
I am a horror show in front of
706
00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:45,049
her, but she took the time
707
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:48,009
to be personal and ask me,
708
00:26:48,375 --> 00:26:49,974
what do you want me to call you?
709
00:26:49,974 --> 00:26:53,174
And that spoke volumes to me. I just
710
00:26:53,174 --> 00:26:55,575
feel like that's one of the best ways
711
00:26:55,575 --> 00:26:57,815
that a health care professional can get on
712
00:26:57,815 --> 00:27:00,295
the good side of a patient Yes. Is
713
00:27:00,295 --> 00:27:02,214
simply by asking, what do you prefer to
714
00:27:02,214 --> 00:27:04,340
be called? Yes. That is a person to
715
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:04,840
person
716
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:08,279
initial contact that helps build trust. Exactly.
717
00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:11,000
Exactly. Alright. Well, before we get into the
718
00:27:11,140 --> 00:27:13,960
compassionate communication skills that you teach,
719
00:27:14,420 --> 00:27:15,720
what would be your definition
720
00:27:16,259 --> 00:27:17,160
of the term
721
00:27:17,474 --> 00:27:18,295
knowledge management?
722
00:27:19,075 --> 00:27:21,634
Wow. So I I learned this term from
723
00:27:21,634 --> 00:27:22,134
you
724
00:27:22,835 --> 00:27:23,335
recently.
725
00:27:24,755 --> 00:27:26,994
I learned the term from you. However, this
726
00:27:26,994 --> 00:27:28,454
idea of dissemination
727
00:27:28,755 --> 00:27:31,974
of knowledge throughout a large and complex
728
00:27:32,275 --> 00:27:32,775
organization,
729
00:27:33,769 --> 00:27:35,549
That's what I've been doing for
730
00:27:36,329 --> 00:27:37,710
ten, twenty years now,
731
00:27:38,569 --> 00:27:40,829
is really trying to get this information
732
00:27:41,210 --> 00:27:43,549
into the hearts and minds and practices
733
00:27:44,250 --> 00:27:46,569
of those caregivers that are on the front
734
00:27:46,569 --> 00:27:49,434
lines. And I keep referring back to health
735
00:27:49,434 --> 00:27:50,255
care professionals,
736
00:27:50,875 --> 00:27:52,714
and 90% of the work that I do
737
00:27:52,714 --> 00:27:55,035
is with health care professionals, but really, this
738
00:27:55,035 --> 00:27:57,275
kind of stuff is just human. We're all
739
00:27:57,275 --> 00:27:59,035
going to have someone in our life who
740
00:27:59,035 --> 00:28:01,295
has suffered, and we get to be
741
00:28:01,909 --> 00:28:04,650
that Jennifer or that nurse Barb
742
00:28:05,269 --> 00:28:07,349
to be able to be there for somebody.
743
00:28:07,349 --> 00:28:09,509
That's a that's a privilege that we get.
744
00:28:09,509 --> 00:28:11,269
That's a privilege. You bring up a point
745
00:28:11,269 --> 00:28:13,589
that I wanna stress here is that they
746
00:28:13,589 --> 00:28:15,909
may not get the recognition for the effort
747
00:28:15,909 --> 00:28:16,890
they put forward.
748
00:28:17,554 --> 00:28:19,815
They are not doing it to be reciprocal.
749
00:28:20,035 --> 00:28:21,974
They are doing it because they're genuine.
750
00:28:22,275 --> 00:28:24,115
Right. I wanna make that case because some
751
00:28:24,115 --> 00:28:26,194
people think, well, I treated them nice. Why
752
00:28:26,194 --> 00:28:28,035
are they treating you know, or or whatever.
753
00:28:28,035 --> 00:28:29,954
There's a lot of judgment involved with that
754
00:28:29,954 --> 00:28:31,559
exchange. They don't need
755
00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:34,019
that reciprocation. It just it's just the way
756
00:28:34,019 --> 00:28:35,539
they are. That's their nature. I guess one
757
00:28:35,539 --> 00:28:37,299
of the things that I often work with
758
00:28:37,299 --> 00:28:39,160
is the culture of an organization.
759
00:28:39,859 --> 00:28:41,799
I'd have to go find you this exact
760
00:28:42,019 --> 00:28:43,080
stat and quote.
761
00:28:43,555 --> 00:28:45,714
It's thought that if you you don't have
762
00:28:45,714 --> 00:28:47,894
to get the knowledge to
763
00:28:48,195 --> 00:28:48,695
everybody
764
00:28:49,315 --> 00:28:50,214
in the organization.
765
00:28:50,994 --> 00:28:52,674
You just have to get it to a
766
00:28:52,674 --> 00:28:55,410
percentage of them who will then disseminate it
767
00:28:55,490 --> 00:28:57,570
for you. It seemed like in health care,
768
00:28:57,570 --> 00:28:59,590
at least with the idea of culture change,
769
00:28:59,970 --> 00:29:02,289
that could be as little as 10%
770
00:29:02,289 --> 00:29:03,109
of the organization.
771
00:29:03,730 --> 00:29:05,590
So when I go and work with organizations,
772
00:29:06,450 --> 00:29:08,930
I want to get at least 10% of
773
00:29:08,930 --> 00:29:10,150
the working staff
774
00:29:10,454 --> 00:29:12,694
in to see me in hopes that that
775
00:29:12,694 --> 00:29:14,154
will start to
776
00:29:14,694 --> 00:29:17,734
shift some culture in more positive direction. So
777
00:29:17,734 --> 00:29:19,355
you talk about medical cultures.
778
00:29:19,894 --> 00:29:22,775
I will say in my learnings of knowledge
779
00:29:22,775 --> 00:29:23,190
management and
780
00:29:27,829 --> 00:29:28,329
prominent
781
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:31,429
organizations in The United States that did it
782
00:29:31,429 --> 00:29:33,529
in the medical field was the Mayo brothers.
783
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:36,309
Mhmm. Mhmm. The Mayo brothers brought in this
784
00:29:36,309 --> 00:29:37,124
holistic concept of communicating and developing knowledge based
785
00:29:37,226 --> 00:29:38,250
you know, they didn't
786
00:29:38,629 --> 00:29:39,129
just
787
00:29:40,045 --> 00:29:40,545
developing
788
00:29:41,644 --> 00:29:43,484
knowledge based you know, they didn't just have
789
00:29:43,484 --> 00:29:45,244
one doc go, well, you you need to
790
00:29:45,244 --> 00:29:48,305
do this. They actually reversed it and created
791
00:29:48,325 --> 00:29:49,505
a knowledge management
792
00:29:49,805 --> 00:29:50,785
sharing methodology
793
00:29:51,484 --> 00:29:53,644
that made them as super distinct in the
794
00:29:53,644 --> 00:29:55,230
field. Yeah. And
795
00:29:55,769 --> 00:29:58,990
there's many organizations that have tried to build
796
00:29:59,529 --> 00:30:00,029
something
797
00:30:00,490 --> 00:30:03,049
similar. It works for Mayo. Oh. The the
798
00:30:03,049 --> 00:30:05,450
Mayo model works for Mayo. I I don't
799
00:30:05,450 --> 00:30:06,909
know of too many other organizations
800
00:30:07,654 --> 00:30:09,194
that do it like Mayo,
801
00:30:09,654 --> 00:30:10,714
but you're also
802
00:30:11,015 --> 00:30:13,335
getting out of my realms of expertise here
803
00:30:13,335 --> 00:30:14,855
a little bit. That's good. That's good. We're
804
00:30:14,855 --> 00:30:17,174
pushing each other in new directions. Mhmm. So
805
00:30:17,174 --> 00:30:19,174
the Mayo Clinic, if you all don't know,
806
00:30:19,174 --> 00:30:21,815
I mean, just just search knowledge management in
807
00:30:21,815 --> 00:30:23,970
Mayo Clinic, and they're still producing a fair
808
00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:26,210
amount of content. So it's just as an
809
00:30:26,210 --> 00:30:26,710
FYI.
810
00:30:27,410 --> 00:30:29,809
So now that we've discussed what knowledge management
811
00:30:29,809 --> 00:30:32,450
is or what your perception is, let's hear
812
00:30:32,450 --> 00:30:34,710
about what you teach in compassionate
813
00:30:35,009 --> 00:30:36,150
communication skills.
814
00:30:36,684 --> 00:30:40,125
We talked about the compassionate communication like Jennifer
815
00:30:40,125 --> 00:30:42,605
gave to me with I'm here. I say
816
00:30:42,605 --> 00:30:45,164
the three most compassionate things that you can
817
00:30:45,164 --> 00:30:48,224
say to another human being, first, I'm here.
818
00:30:48,445 --> 00:30:48,945
Second,
819
00:30:49,484 --> 00:30:51,265
me too. And third,
820
00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:54,319
I got you. I've got you. And I
821
00:30:54,319 --> 00:30:55,539
think whenever we
822
00:30:55,839 --> 00:30:56,339
communicate
823
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:57,940
in that way,
824
00:30:58,400 --> 00:30:59,700
we are showing solidarity,
825
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,299
we are showing
826
00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:02,099
understanding,
827
00:31:02,559 --> 00:31:03,059
and
828
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:04,660
we're showing awareness
829
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,914
of another person's suffering. And so by those
830
00:31:07,914 --> 00:31:10,954
three responses, I'm here, me too, and I've
831
00:31:10,954 --> 00:31:11,615
got you,
832
00:31:12,075 --> 00:31:14,095
that's that's where the compassionate communication
833
00:31:14,555 --> 00:31:15,454
That's the goal.
834
00:31:15,914 --> 00:31:18,154
That's the foundation. Yeah. The foundation. If we
835
00:31:18,154 --> 00:31:21,055
translated that into any other community or organizational
836
00:31:21,434 --> 00:31:21,934
structure
837
00:31:22,450 --> 00:31:23,750
with human to human
838
00:31:24,130 --> 00:31:25,350
contact and workflows
839
00:31:26,210 --> 00:31:28,390
and how the business process was work.
840
00:31:28,690 --> 00:31:30,869
If you remembered those three things,
841
00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:33,029
in order to practice
842
00:31:33,330 --> 00:31:36,529
just like your example of the sister nurse
843
00:31:36,529 --> 00:31:38,105
that would come in the door and do
844
00:31:38,105 --> 00:31:40,984
her mantra before she walked in to set
845
00:31:40,984 --> 00:31:43,484
the stage for her psychologically and emotionally,
846
00:31:44,024 --> 00:31:45,325
and it provides
847
00:31:46,345 --> 00:31:47,085
a intentful
848
00:31:47,704 --> 00:31:49,164
design. It's an intentful
849
00:31:49,464 --> 00:31:49,964
design.
850
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,359
Where you worked, instead of doing the quippy,
851
00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:55,619
and I'm I'm using myself an example,
852
00:31:56,559 --> 00:31:58,900
my retort or my witty
853
00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:01,840
response to something to keep it light or
854
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,779
laugh or to be jovial
855
00:32:04,454 --> 00:32:05,994
instead of being empathetic.
856
00:32:06,375 --> 00:32:07,434
If I just said,
857
00:32:07,894 --> 00:32:09,595
I'm with you. I'm here.
858
00:32:09,974 --> 00:32:12,315
And just leave it that short, concise,
859
00:32:12,775 --> 00:32:14,775
and let it lay. It is such a
860
00:32:14,775 --> 00:32:15,275
humanistic
861
00:32:15,654 --> 00:32:16,154
effort
862
00:32:16,775 --> 00:32:18,039
that it
863
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:20,359
becomes, I think, too simple
864
00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:23,220
to not do anything like that because those
865
00:32:23,220 --> 00:32:26,039
are bridge makers. Those are ways that strengthen
866
00:32:26,099 --> 00:32:28,259
a culture. Right. And I think there's a
867
00:32:28,259 --> 00:32:29,640
certain level of sarcasm
868
00:32:30,259 --> 00:32:32,919
that comes through on so many different channels
869
00:32:33,404 --> 00:32:34,144
that people
870
00:32:34,605 --> 00:32:37,984
use sarcasm in order to keep away from
871
00:32:38,205 --> 00:32:39,505
feelings or empathy.
872
00:32:40,205 --> 00:32:42,525
Yeah. I go with what with what you
873
00:32:42,525 --> 00:32:45,265
said at first there. This ain't rocket surgery.
874
00:32:45,965 --> 00:32:48,789
Right? This is just human beings being human
875
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:50,170
being to one another.
876
00:32:50,789 --> 00:32:53,029
But because we often get so caught up
877
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:54,789
in our own heads and in our own
878
00:32:54,789 --> 00:32:56,789
tasks and our own lives and our own
879
00:32:56,789 --> 00:32:57,289
thoughts,
880
00:32:57,910 --> 00:32:59,990
we can forget about that patient that's at
881
00:32:59,990 --> 00:33:01,210
the other end of the stethoscope.
882
00:33:01,884 --> 00:33:04,224
When you talk about cynicism or sarcasm,
883
00:33:04,924 --> 00:33:07,085
yeah, I get it. Because I tend to
884
00:33:07,085 --> 00:33:09,664
have a typical a bit of a sarcastic
885
00:33:09,724 --> 00:33:11,424
sense of humor, a bit of a cynical,
886
00:33:11,964 --> 00:33:13,664
dark sense of humor as well.
887
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:17,210
But as a caregiver,
888
00:33:18,150 --> 00:33:19,930
when you're taking care of a patient,
889
00:33:20,549 --> 00:33:22,630
it may be a normal Tuesday for the
890
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:23,130
caregiver.
891
00:33:23,750 --> 00:33:25,049
But it could be
892
00:33:25,509 --> 00:33:27,349
one of the most significant days of that
893
00:33:27,349 --> 00:33:30,615
patient's life. That's something to keep in mind.
894
00:33:30,855 --> 00:33:32,775
When it's one of the most significant days
895
00:33:32,775 --> 00:33:34,315
of another person's life,
896
00:33:34,934 --> 00:33:36,474
do we need to go in
897
00:33:36,934 --> 00:33:39,194
well, we definitely wanna go in with appropriate
898
00:33:39,255 --> 00:33:41,174
humor, but we also wanna go in there
899
00:33:41,174 --> 00:33:43,549
with the knowledge that they are suffering in
900
00:33:43,549 --> 00:33:45,349
some way. I'll share a story that was
901
00:33:45,349 --> 00:33:47,609
shared with me. I was a volunteer
902
00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:50,230
with a hospice in Western New York for
903
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:52,170
a couple years, and I worked exclusively
904
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:55,670
with combat veterans because I was one. And,
905
00:33:56,785 --> 00:33:58,884
I was able to sit with a man
906
00:33:58,945 --> 00:34:01,025
that had served in World War two in
907
00:34:01,025 --> 00:34:02,164
the Korean War.
908
00:34:02,945 --> 00:34:05,585
Now this goes to exactly what you're saying,
909
00:34:05,585 --> 00:34:07,265
and I'm glad I remembered it. He had
910
00:34:07,265 --> 00:34:08,885
told me that he
911
00:34:09,264 --> 00:34:10,324
was so angry
912
00:34:10,625 --> 00:34:13,219
at this age, still in his deathbed
913
00:34:13,519 --> 00:34:15,679
holding on to that wound. So this is
914
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:17,599
a good example of holding on to a
915
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:20,099
wound. So he told me he'd gotten brutally
916
00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:21,780
messed up physically.
917
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:24,880
Head injury with a big piece of equipment
918
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,420
and just he was racked.
919
00:34:27,224 --> 00:34:29,565
And all I can remember was this nurse
920
00:34:30,105 --> 00:34:31,965
that said, oh, you poor thing.
921
00:34:32,265 --> 00:34:34,985
Oh, you poor and he he reacted with
922
00:34:34,985 --> 00:34:37,965
such a visceral response to that language.
923
00:34:38,425 --> 00:34:40,345
And I was like, really? I can hear
924
00:34:40,345 --> 00:34:43,090
my grandmother saying that. But he found it
925
00:34:43,090 --> 00:34:43,590
so
926
00:34:44,130 --> 00:34:47,329
negative in putting him into a class or
927
00:34:47,409 --> 00:34:49,090
I don't know. I he he threw a
928
00:34:49,090 --> 00:34:52,150
lot of attachment around it. I I wanna
929
00:34:52,289 --> 00:34:55,409
think. In the process that I spent hours
930
00:34:55,409 --> 00:34:56,389
with this man,
931
00:34:56,844 --> 00:34:58,385
but he took it so painfully
932
00:34:58,925 --> 00:34:59,824
and woundingly
933
00:35:00,844 --> 00:35:03,885
that he kept that by him sharing that
934
00:35:03,885 --> 00:35:06,925
story. But sharing the story with me, maybe
935
00:35:06,925 --> 00:35:09,265
that helped to dissipate that energy.
936
00:35:09,724 --> 00:35:11,570
I feel like there's healing
937
00:35:11,950 --> 00:35:13,969
in the telling of our stories,
938
00:35:14,269 --> 00:35:15,489
and I know that
939
00:35:15,789 --> 00:35:18,829
all too well anecdotally from personal experience and
940
00:35:18,829 --> 00:35:21,390
having been a professional speaker for the last
941
00:35:21,390 --> 00:35:24,269
twenty five years that by me being able
942
00:35:24,269 --> 00:35:25,650
to tell my story
943
00:35:26,614 --> 00:35:29,094
the way I want to tell it with
944
00:35:29,094 --> 00:35:31,194
the elements that I want to tell it
945
00:35:31,655 --> 00:35:32,135
is,
946
00:35:32,775 --> 00:35:35,174
it takes it from something that's tragic to
947
00:35:35,174 --> 00:35:37,815
something that's triumphant. We can build off of
948
00:35:37,815 --> 00:35:39,815
our stories. We can take our stories and
949
00:35:39,815 --> 00:35:42,849
let them hold us back as your case
950
00:35:42,849 --> 00:35:43,829
with this veteran,
951
00:35:44,289 --> 00:35:46,690
or we can take something horrible that's happened
952
00:35:46,690 --> 00:35:49,010
to us and learn from it and grow
953
00:35:49,010 --> 00:35:50,610
from it and evolve from it. I think
954
00:35:50,610 --> 00:35:52,929
that's a great note to land on. Let's
955
00:35:52,929 --> 00:35:53,989
all work on
956
00:35:54,289 --> 00:35:55,269
taking something
957
00:35:55,704 --> 00:35:56,764
that was tragic,
958
00:35:57,464 --> 00:35:59,164
and let's look at the triumphant
959
00:35:59,704 --> 00:36:02,364
side of things if we allow ourselves
960
00:36:02,664 --> 00:36:04,184
to go there. I think there's a certain
961
00:36:04,184 --> 00:36:06,184
level of humanity that just wants to hold
962
00:36:06,184 --> 00:36:08,699
on to that because that wound defined them.
963
00:36:09,179 --> 00:36:11,019
Oh, I can't do that. I had this
964
00:36:11,019 --> 00:36:13,679
happen in order. And it becomes a barrier
965
00:36:13,820 --> 00:36:16,139
in a in a protective way that's not
966
00:36:16,139 --> 00:36:19,019
really helpful. Yeah. And, you know, through a
967
00:36:19,019 --> 00:36:21,755
lot of counseling, I've learned that too. A
968
00:36:21,755 --> 00:36:23,675
lot of self inquiry. I've learned that, you
969
00:36:23,675 --> 00:36:25,934
know, you can hold on to these stories.
970
00:36:25,994 --> 00:36:28,315
And and people have asked me, well, you
971
00:36:28,315 --> 00:36:29,914
know, you got hit by a drunk driver.
972
00:36:29,914 --> 00:36:32,715
It was somebody else's choice that is the
973
00:36:32,715 --> 00:36:34,570
reason that you broke all the bones in
974
00:36:34,570 --> 00:36:36,329
your face. You had three hundred hours of
975
00:36:36,329 --> 00:36:38,030
surgery, permanently blind.
976
00:36:38,969 --> 00:36:39,469
Yes.
977
00:36:40,409 --> 00:36:42,750
But if I spend all of my time
978
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:45,849
angry and pissed off at this guy, does
979
00:36:45,849 --> 00:36:46,184
that
980
00:36:46,664 --> 00:36:49,244
hurt him? No. It hurts who?
981
00:36:49,864 --> 00:36:50,364
Me.
982
00:36:50,744 --> 00:36:52,824
I figured that this guy took my sight.
983
00:36:52,824 --> 00:36:55,005
I'm not gonna let him have my happiness.
984
00:36:55,545 --> 00:36:58,125
I'm not gonna let him have my outlook.
985
00:36:58,230 --> 00:37:00,409
I'm not gonna let him have my perspective.
986
00:37:00,710 --> 00:37:01,769
I'm going to
987
00:37:02,230 --> 00:37:03,690
keep living and
988
00:37:04,150 --> 00:37:06,969
realize that this was an incident that happened,
989
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:09,750
terribly horrible incident that needed to be worked
990
00:37:09,750 --> 00:37:10,250
through.
991
00:37:10,869 --> 00:37:12,885
At this point, I've come out on the
992
00:37:13,125 --> 00:37:14,425
opposite end of it
993
00:37:14,804 --> 00:37:16,585
a stronger, hopefully wiser
994
00:37:16,885 --> 00:37:17,385
person
995
00:37:18,005 --> 00:37:19,684
that has the privilege of being able to
996
00:37:19,684 --> 00:37:21,925
be able to share that information with other
997
00:37:21,925 --> 00:37:24,085
people. And hopefully, they can become wiser and
998
00:37:24,085 --> 00:37:26,244
grow from it too. The challenge is going
999
00:37:26,244 --> 00:37:28,425
back to our Zen master kind of
1000
00:37:28,849 --> 00:37:30,070
everything's good
1001
00:37:30,449 --> 00:37:33,650
and om and I'm peaceful and everything is
1002
00:37:33,650 --> 00:37:34,150
calm,
1003
00:37:34,530 --> 00:37:35,829
is that we have to
1004
00:37:36,130 --> 00:37:37,590
endorse our ability
1005
00:37:38,210 --> 00:37:38,710
or
1006
00:37:39,010 --> 00:37:40,230
improve our ability
1007
00:37:40,784 --> 00:37:41,605
to respond
1008
00:37:42,385 --> 00:37:43,525
instead of react.
1009
00:37:44,065 --> 00:37:45,844
React. Yes. Exactly.
1010
00:37:46,385 --> 00:37:48,944
And that is something that I've worked on
1011
00:37:48,944 --> 00:37:52,085
for years, how to respond instead of react.
1012
00:37:52,545 --> 00:37:54,784
I go back to Viktor Frankl in Man's
1013
00:37:54,784 --> 00:37:55,764
Search for Meaning
1014
00:37:56,519 --> 00:37:57,739
when he talked about
1015
00:37:58,280 --> 00:37:59,900
that in between the stimulus
1016
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,340
and the response,
1017
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:02,780
there is a power
1018
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,079
or there is a space, and in that
1019
00:38:05,079 --> 00:38:07,179
space is where your power lies.
1020
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,175
I love that. I love that because I
1021
00:38:11,494 --> 00:38:14,474
I want to respond and not react. Exactly.
1022
00:38:14,695 --> 00:38:16,934
That's a great concept, and I'm glad we
1023
00:38:16,934 --> 00:38:19,015
landed on that. And thank you for sharing
1024
00:38:19,015 --> 00:38:20,235
your time and expertise.
1025
00:38:20,775 --> 00:38:22,775
And I want everybody to go work on
1026
00:38:22,775 --> 00:38:23,594
that space
1027
00:38:24,099 --> 00:38:24,839
in between.
1028
00:38:25,219 --> 00:38:27,219
Yeah. Edwin, thanks for having me on the
1029
00:38:27,219 --> 00:38:29,300
program today. It's been great spending some time
1030
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:30,679
with you. Hopefully, we've disseminated
1031
00:38:31,380 --> 00:38:33,619
a little more knowledge, and I really appreciate
1032
00:38:33,619 --> 00:38:34,280
the time.
1033
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:39,059
Thank you for listening to Because You Need
1034
00:38:39,059 --> 00:38:41,954
to Know, the reference podcast and knowledge management.
1035
00:38:42,175 --> 00:38:44,414
My name is Sonny Tonemi. As an art
1036
00:38:44,414 --> 00:38:44,914
administrator,
1037
00:38:45,295 --> 00:38:47,135
Because You Need to Know has been my
1038
00:38:47,135 --> 00:38:49,614
go to podcast and has helped me hone
1039
00:38:49,614 --> 00:38:53,074
my management skills. Please consider sponsoring the podcast
1040
00:38:53,135 --> 00:38:54,114
with your business.
1041
00:38:58,630 --> 00:39:01,590
Thank you for joining this extraordinary journey, and
1042
00:39:01,590 --> 00:39:04,550
we hope the experiences gained add value to
1043
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:05,450
you and yours.
1044
00:39:06,070 --> 00:39:07,989
See you next time at Because You Need
1045
00:39:07,989 --> 00:39:10,484
to Know. If you'd like to contact us,
1046
00:39:10,484 --> 00:39:11,304
please email
1047
00:39:11,764 --> 00:39:16,724
byntk@pioneer-ks.org
1048
00:39:16,724 --> 00:39:17,945
or find us on LinkedIn.