Electric Trucks, AI & Autonomous Freight: The Future of Logistics | Jamie Sands

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Welcome to the latest episode of the Auto Future Cast with me, Chris Kirby.
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This season we're proud to be sponsored by Global Professional Services Provider Aeon.
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The podcast is brought to you in association with uh tomorrow's journey and generational.
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Um, super exciting today.
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We're joined by Jamie Sands from Welsh Group.
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Um Jamie, really great to have you on.
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Thanks for making it to uh to the studio on a hot, hot London day as it is today.
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Also, we didn't talk earlier about whether you stayed up to watch the football last night, but um, yeah, lots of tired faces looking around on the train today.
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So, this season we're really proud to be sponsored by Aeon.
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Uh, Aeon is a global professional services firm that helps businesses make better informed decisions on risk, capital allocation, and people using cutting-edge data and analytics combined with deep technical expertise.
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Their award-winning Motor Risk Insights platform helps commercial motor fleets uh identify and quantify on-road risks, unlocking the power of connected data.
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Um, but Jamie, if we can talk a bit about um logistics, freight, electrification, um, but just for a starting point for the listeners, give us a little bit about your background and and the business and kind of where you guys are at.
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Thanks, Chris.
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Um, yeah, and thanks for having me.
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It's always great to get freight out into the wider world for people that don't usually think about it, because uh we always say like logistics touches everything.
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Yeah.
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Um, but people people don't really notice it um until it goes wrong.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, it's but uh yeah, uh I'm Jamie, I'm I'm head of solutions for for Welsh Group, who are a family-owned and operated logistics provider from the East of England.
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So that title in itself is something quite unique, something that most independent hauliers wouldn't have is someone looking at the future.
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Yeah, um, but it's a super cool job.
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Uh I look after technology, innovation, and sustainability for the group.
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Okay.
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And that started with you know digital transformation, very quickly turned into like decarbonisation, zero emission vehicles, electrification, all that stuff.
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Yeah, great.
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Yeah, it's a super uh topical for for us as well.
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In a previous episode uh this season already we've talked a lot about fleet electrification.
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I think uh we've done a lot of work, uh the industry's done a lot of work on the the car electrification, but um, but yeah, into the kind of freight and fleet world is um accelerating quickly, I think is uh definitely an interesting uh space to be in.
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Yeah, and I think in a lot of ways, a lot of ways it's harder, but in a lot of ways it's a bit easier because it's not it's not sentimental like cars.
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Like people people love their cars, they uh they love the sound of the car, is often the the reason for not changing, isn't it?
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But but when you when you hit commercial vehicles, it's almost entirely uh some mass problem.
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Yeah, is this cheaper to one than the other?
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And when it is, people flip on mass.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And uh a bit of a game of does it work?
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Yeah, and it goes as what we we talked about in a previous episode with uh with Mike of uh yeah, there is that bit of going, well, if it works, it works, and then there's the change.
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There's there's none of this uh you know kind of subjective uh elements to it.
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It works on paper and it won't always work for for everybody all all the time, but I guess it's a a relatively well, probably a complex algorithm, but it's an out it's a it's a solvable equation, I guess.
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Yeah, we we talk a lot about total cost of ownership.
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Yeah.
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And a line that I've often used is that your your dad's total cost of ownership calculator doesn't work anymore.
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So if you use the same mass, then it's not gonna work.
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But if you start, if you start feeding in all this new stuff, which is all around energy, then it can make a huge amount of sense.
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Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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And for in terms of for you guys, what one of the things that's super interesting, you mentioned, yeah, being a kind of regional Haulia, um, regional freight business, you're quite well positioned for some of this uh I guess innovation and uh electrification, which isn't always the case.
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Sometimes smaller businesses are very focused on the day-to-day, but obviously, with with you and your your role, that's uh a different story.
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But what's kind of been your journey and the business's journey around electrification and uh kind of uh early movers in that advantage in that space?
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We we call ourselves accidental pioneers.
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Like when we started, so we bought our first electric HGV about four years ago now, put a charger in the ground, just started to do it because we wanted to wanted to learn, saw the direction of travel, and thought, you know, it's it's one out of 70 vehicles, even if it goes horribly wrong, it's not the end of the world.
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We we thought everyone would be doing it because it seemed sensible.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um then we turned around and we found out that everyone was watching us.
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Which one in hindsight, that's probably the smarter way to do it.
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But but when when when we made that realization, we kind of leaned into it a bit and thought, well, actually, let's let's be the pioneers, like let's make that a USP.
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Yeah.
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Um and and after four years, it's it's it's just about starting to pay off, I think.
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So we're we're winning tenders now that we wouldn't have won otherwise because of the work we're doing in sustainability, yeah.
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Um, and not just because they want to use the electric vehicles, but because they they know they wouldn't have to go on a journey with them.
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So if they need to start reporting on their emissions or they've got a mandate down from head office saying, you know, you need to need to you need to go to zero emission, that that we can just turn that on for them.
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Yeah.
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Uh and that that's a huge difference.
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Um also coincided with like a change in leadership at the company.
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Yeah.
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So we're family-owned, been around for 92 years.
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So my boss, Chris, who's now managing director, he took over from his dad, okay, you know, over the last few years, sort of a slow handover.
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So he wants to he wants to like stamp his own kind of legacy on it, like wants something to be remembered.
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And there's a slightly different uh slightly different outlook when you're uh when you've been around for a hundred years and you want to be around for another 100 years, as much as it becomes more about resilience than yeah than making a load of money in Q3, which would be nice, you know.
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Don't get me wrong, but yeah, it's about to make money in Q3 to be here in Q4.
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But yeah, it's uh yeah, I definitely know that.
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I mean it's um the the world in in any industry that you're in is changing at a rapid pace.
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We're gonna touch on things like AI and bits later on, but I I feel it in our business, you know, with the the impact of AI, and you you're going, okay, well, I I'm kind of fine doing what I'm doing, but you know, if if we don't get on on this process and we don't understand it, exactly the same as as you case of just going, I'm just gonna start using it myself, do some stuff, build some things, do play around with some stuff and just see what happens, figure out what the capabilities are, don't rely on someone on on some propaganda either telling you yes, it's brilliant when it's not, or vice, vice versa.
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You know, I think it's quite a good good place to be and getting that those test beds in, particularly in something like this.
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You guys need to get your your own numbers right.
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Yeah, let's let's put it on our own, let's run it, let's put it into the calculator, work out does the maths work, does like you say the algorithm the same as it was?
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Probably not.
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What's a new algorithm?
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Does it work?
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I think it's a good, really good place to be.
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Um yeah.
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Um, I think from the one of the things that's super interesting from the going back to the tender's point of view, actually, is that I think we've talked a lot on the podcast over the last few months about um almost sustainability.
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There's this thing about sort of everyone's going net zero is a bad thing, political propaganda, we won't go down a political route.
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Um, but I guess it's very sort of clean in a fleet environment because it is kind of about those numbers.
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And is that what you're finding from customers asking you where's the sustainability bit on a on the list of priorities?
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Is it going, well, as long as it doesn't cost me any more money and they we'd also like it to be sustainable?
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Because maybe a few years ago it might have been the other way around.
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I don't, I don't know.
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Yeah, in our in our world, so our customers are usually of a similar size to us, yeah.
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So the big the big tier ones and three pls, they go after the big customers, and all of our customers are mostly regional.
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So they've got they've got no obligation at the moment to report on emissions or anything like that.
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So unless they're they've got a real kind of cultural imperative within the business, then that green premium, as you call it, simply doesn't exist.
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Yeah.
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Um, but then saying that if they can if they can start down that journey without paying more, which I guess is what we're offering them because we're kind of doing it anyway, um, then that's a that's a huge tick in our box.
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Um and we do have customers that are interested in that green premium.
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We do a load of work with uh British Antarctic Survey.
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Okay.
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So the guys that uh discovered the whole hole in the oil zosan layer, um, boating boat face.
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Right, yeah, yeah.
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Um so obviously within that organization, yeah, they'll they'll they'll pay anything to get zero emission transport.
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Yeah, really, really important.
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But they're they're few and far between.
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Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah, it has to be one of those organizations where it's sort of a a uh a benchmark or a you know a key USP for them.
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I was thinking that in terms of even if it's kind of like FMCG products, if you're pushing a uh you know organic green environmental product, maybe it's more important than if it's if you've got a sustainability budget.
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If you've got a sustainability budget, then you can you can take some out of that to implement zero emission stuff.
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Um you know, on the on the sustainability piece, I often go a stage further in as much as we we don't talk about it as much as we used to because you you start to see it almost being damaging to the transition.
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Yeah, yeah, for sure.
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Operators like us, I think they're starting to feel like it's just a a uh a compliance piece.
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Yeah, it's a box that they've got to tick, and that that instantly puts their back up.
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Yeah, it's like it's just another thing that we've got to do.
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So reframing it as a commercial opportunity and some of the case studies we're putting out about well, actually, this is cheaper than diesel.
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Yeah, and that's that's what we need to focus on because that's what will move people.
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Yeah, I think that's the thing, isn't it?
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I think that in our world, we're a lot into the kind of retail electrification piece, and often when I talk to people about people, people who still haven't got their head around it, still think that it's some kind of compromise that you have to make.
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Someone asked me the other day, I mean, I I've been in in the auto industry all of my life, and I wouldn't say I'm like a borderline petrol head, not like a mad petrol head, but like I like cars, I've been around cars since I worked in a car dealer when I was 18.
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I've been in the industry my whole life.
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And someone said to me, money, no object, what car would you buy?
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And I actually found it a really hard question to answer because I was like, I just don't know if I would go and buy like a Ferrari or something.
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And I was like, well, and then electric cars are just like they're kind of different, different things.
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I'd be buying it based on it.
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It's like my my whole mindset shifted, but it's not because I'm going, well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have a petrol vehicle because it's bad for the environment.
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It's just like, well, now I've had an electric car.
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Why on earth would I want to have something that is less good in every way?
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It doesn't make any sense.
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Um, and I think you I'm totally with you is that that whole whole bit is it's it's become a bit that gets people's back up, but actually the transition to electric vehicles seemingly kind of across the board is is a it's one that make makes a lot of sense.
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Um and what we've found is actually like the the people you would expect to be clinging on to this old way the which is the drivers, they absolutely adore these vehicles.
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Yeah, so less vibrations, less noise, loads of talk.
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Yeah, yeah, real, real huge fans.
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Yeah, the the the people that it's a bit more of a struggle to convince is like the middle.
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Yeah.
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So like the financial director kind of gets it, and the drivers at the bottom get it.
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It's the guys in the middle, the operational guys, who I guess have to deal with the complexity that comes with it because there is complexity that comes with it, um, that we're working really, really hard to get rid of.
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Um, but they're they're the ones that are more resistant.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, because there is there's it is not even that it I mean that there is complexity, but it's it's more that it's just like quite different how to how to operate them.
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So it becomes this it's a change.
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I guess if you're the financial director, it's it's a different calculation in your spreadsheet, but you still pay some money and buy an asset, and okay, you write it down differently, it costs you different things to run.
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And the same for the the driver still drives it in the same way, but it's better.
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But yeah, that it's in I hadn't thought about that that operator middle bit planning and charging and all that stuff, I guess, is a big, big, uh, big challenge.
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Um, just on the driver's piece as well, before actually, because I want to um expand on that a little bit more.
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I keep keep referencing um uh Mike McCrani, who was on the prev previous episode, who's more into the charging space in in fleets.
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I was going to ask you about the drivers, it's interesting you brought it up because his he his feedback was exactly the same.
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So they're doing a lot of electrification of buses um and uh uh garbage trucks, bid bin lorries, all that kind of thing.
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Uh and just uh you know the drivers go, oh yeah, we love it.
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But then when you ask them why, it's not because they go, Oh, you know, instant acceleration things like it is that I've got to sit in this bus for eight hours a day, and the vibration you know, it's not rattling me to pieces.
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It's not you know, it's those kind of things I hadn't thought of before.
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But it's really interesting that unprompted, you you basically had that same feedback.
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Yeah, and and they often they often don't even realise how much that's affecting them until they move into these new vehicles.
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Yeah.
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So if you'd asked them five years ago, you know, what what are the worst points about driving this truck?
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I don't think anyone would have talked about vibrations or or like the the stress that that induces.
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Yeah, but as soon as you remove it, it becomes really, really obvious.
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Yeah, they they report you know just being more relaxed at home and and things like that, which is yeah, unseen consequences that we kind of need to lean on that a little bit.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah, I mean that's back to the thing of you know for for them, yeah, but very little drawbacks, only positive, uh positive changes.
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Um, in terms of the going back to then the operator piece, which also I'm I'm interested in how have an operational right logical but like solving practical problems.
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So I'm interested in how you guys have tackled some of those, well what those challenges are, and also how you guys have tackled them in that bit of how how do you run a fleet day-to-day that's electric versus a diesel fleet.
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You know, it's it's not too difficult at the moment because we're still talking about like a low percentage of vehicles.
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Yeah, no, no HGV fleet has got more than 10% electric vehicles at the moment.
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There's a couple of exceptions, but they've generally, you know, startups they've got a few trucks.
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Um it's about it's about like a different set of variables that you've got to plan for.
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So range and payload are the big two that people talk about.
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Yeah.
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So batteries are heavy, so at the moment you can't put as much on the truck as you could on a diesel equivalent.
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Okay.
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Um, and that's a that's a bit of a blocker.
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I often counter it with saying, well, actually, 30, I think it's 32% of all of HGV miles are empty.
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Right.
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So in my mind, that becomes an optimization problem, yeah, not necessarily a payload problem.
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Um and range is the other one.
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Um and range is kind of self-solving.
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Yeah, any anyone who sort of worked with electric vehicles knows the direction of travel with that stuff.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um, in commercial vehicles, we've got this extra advantage that the drivers are like mandated the brake.
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Yeah.
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So all those people in the car world that say that they drive eight hours at the time without stopping, and you think, well, no, that's not true.
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Well, with commercial vehicles, that's absolutely true because they have to.
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Yes.
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So the the challenge becomes how do you how do you align those stops that have to happen with opportunities to charge?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So yeah, so it becomes an infrastructure game rather than a vehicle thing.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah, and that the infrastructure becomes really key.
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And I guess there's also challenges around um how that infrastructure is uh is built, but where where you put it, how you build it, how do you manage the the energy.
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Um, I always think about with with electric cars, thinking about um batteries and charging, about like fill filling a paddling pool, you know, the the batteries, the paddling, the size of the paddling pool, and the the charging speed is the size of the hose pipe.
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In a in a truck situation, the the paddling pool is significantly bigger than the one in my car.
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And therefore, if you want to charge it in the same time as it takes to charge my car, you've got to have a load more water and a bigger hose pipe.
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Um so that those challenges, I guess, become more more tricky.
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Um, but uh maybe more stuff is is planned, is more routine, is more structured than it'd be of me going, oh, I've got to go tomorrow, I've got to drive to so and so.
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Or you know, does that is does that play play a factor as well?
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Yeah, I mean, in the in the transitionary period, you've you've still got the diesel vehicles as your backup.
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Yeah.
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So you can you can plan for the electric vehicles.
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I guess the challenge is is that we can't, we're not always going to be in the transition.
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At some point, we're gonna be at an end state where they're all electric.
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So what does that look like?
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:23.120
Um the thing that the thing in that space that always really interests me is the the where will we charge?
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:26.879
So in cars, you know, everyone knows that charging at home evernight is the ideal.
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:28.639
Yeah, and that and that's the same in trucks, yeah.
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:34.000
So if my truck comes home at night, I can I can charge it on a you know 50 kilowatt charger and it'll be ready for morning.
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:34.559
Yeah.
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.279
But but not all trucks are like that, they go out into the world.
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:40.639
Yeah, and also not every depot is gonna get electrified.
00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:41.279
Yeah.
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.080
Um, you start talking about the connection process, yeah.
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:47.759
So it's not the same as plugging in a seven kilowatt at home.
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:54.960
Yeah, you need you need a big grid upgrade that can be expensive, that's massively dependent on postcode, and could be expensive, might not be.
00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:56.960
Yeah, it could take a really long time, might not be.
00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:05.519
So then you've got to think about what that split is between kind of depot charging and enroute charging, and then then on-route charging can take all sorts of different forms.
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:14.079
Yeah, um, people default to like the the MSA standard, which is you know, there's gonna be a big hub somewhere, I'll pull up and I'll charge and I'll go.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:26.799
But actually, the places where we charge tend to be like partner depots, so other hauliers that have electrified, we we can go into bus depots, local authority, you mentioned sort of bin lorries, all of these places have charges in.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.920
Um, you know, the the OEM dealer networks.
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:35.279
So rethinking about what what on-route charging looks like, yeah.
00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:41.039
And then trying to solve that kind of split between who gets to electrify and who doesn't get to electrify.
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.119
You know, to me, that connections process is one of the biggest barriers that we still need to figure out.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.480
Everything else feels like it's at least heading to be a solved problem.
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.920
But yeah, yeah, but where those plugs are gonna be is that's a big job.
00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:52.240
Yeah.
00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:52.880
That's great.
00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:59.599
Well, definitely when Mike's episode comes out, which is which is not now, but by the time your one is out, yeah, it will be.
00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:04.480
As you listen to because we did we talked about uh uh a lot of that stuff is definitely what they uh they specialise in.
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:08.640
But it's it's it's a super interesting topic thinking about how that that all comes together.
00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:25.920
He was talking about you know you're gonna end up with industrial estates that where there's multiple companies there, can you share a bigger grid connection, all those kind of things, which I think is a big thing to come, but there's a lot of planning in that, uh and also prioritizing the ones that are easier than than not as well, which I think is is is fascinating.
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:37.759
The other thing that people don't think about with charging if if you've not had an electric vehicle, and I'm thinking the comparisons to uh to uh to cars is that people always assume you have to charge from zero to a hundred.
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:45.200
And I guess in in a lot of and because the the routes were gonna be somewhat predictable or predictable before you you leave, you'll be able to go, right?
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:54.960
Well, I need between now and getting back, I need X number of kilowatts of uh kilowatt hours of charge, and I can pick them up here, here, and here.
00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:59.839
And I need to get 50 here, I can get 50 here, and that's gonna take me roughly this long.
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:04.000
And so is that some of the stuff that's starting to come into the planning now?
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:10.400
Because I guess previously you would just go, well, I'm just gonna fill it up with diesel to the top, and then when it runs down, I just fill it back up to the top.
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.640
But that process is slightly different with with electric.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:16.799
Yeah, we're not we're not there yet, but it's it's definitely something that we're exploring.
00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:18.319
I'm trying to think a lot about.
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:22.799
It does feel like uh like an end state scenario where you've just got chargers everywhere.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:29.039
Yeah, every loading dock's got a charger, every every building that you go to, you can get a little we call we call it grazing, yeah.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:29.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:40.000
Um it starts to touch on all sorts of different worlds, like uh there's a lot of chatter at the moment, but like electric road systems, like pantographs, and and that's something that's worked elsewhere.
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:58.240
Um, I mean it's uh it's a massive infrastructure project, and I suspect as a nation it's probably not something that we want to do, but but trying to trying to explore all those sorts of different solutions, what it all looks like, and doing it now when there's not a huge amount of vehicles on the road, yeah, is key because when when it comes, it's gonna come really, really fast.
00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:58.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:04.720
And then if it bot if the bottleneck then becomes the charging and the infrastructure, then that becomes a real real problem.
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:17.519
Because again, also going back to the making a retail car comparison, if when I drove to Devon a few weeks ago and I needed to charge, but the first two service stations I went to were full, it's not the it's not the end of the world for me.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:21.920
Like it's it was a it was close to being a pain in the ass, but not really.
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:24.880
And I got a charge and a quick charge in the end, and it was all fine.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:37.039
If you're doing that and it's a business and the numbers at the point that it misses something and you your driver's rest window is missed, and something then all of a sudden you know that you start to lose money on things.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:41.279
So I guess you don't want it to be bottlenecked around the charges when everybody starts, yeah.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:43.119
And it's a low margin industry.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.759
I I think I think some people don't don't realise how low a margin industry it is.
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:51.759
Like you're making a single-digit profit, if any at all, yeah.
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:54.640
For 400 hauliers went out of business last year, yeah.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.880
Yeah, um, and it's a similar story every year.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:03.920
So so figuring it out in a way that is not only operationally viable but commercially viable, really important.
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:13.599
Uh interesting, just in terms of some of the collaboration stuff, we're gonna talk a bit about innovation later, but just um the kind of partnerships and innovation stuff.
00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.920
I'm gonna touch on connected places catapult.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:23.279
Um, also where we we talked about it before, like place close to our heart, we were on one of their early accelerators in more of the mobility space.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:25.359
Um so I know those guys guys really well.
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:36.240
But is that you you're sort of also trying to, whilst you're forging your own sort of pioneer, accidental pioneering path, trying to work with others and bring others in to this kind of thing as well.
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:41.440
Yeah, we we we found ourselves really, really valuable in those innovation circles.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:41.759
Yeah.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:47.039
Because we're because we're a bit smaller, we're we're agile, we're scrappy, we can do stuff.
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.039
Um, if you want an NDA signed or a data sharing agreement, I sign it, I send it back to you.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:52.880
Yeah, it's just it's not difficult.
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.720
And and the big guys can't do that.
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:55.119
Yeah.
00:21:55.519 --> 00:22:03.839
So when we when we got into the world of first zero emission vehicles and then got Introduced to all these organizations that honestly we don't even know existed before.
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:14.319
Yeah, primarily Connected Places Catholic, but you know, the other energy systems and digital cat port as well, we do some work with um and offering ourselves as a like a test bed, yeah.
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:19.279
Um, we started using the word living lab, which is yeah, a bit industry insider, but yeah, I know that's right.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:31.279
Yeah, like if you've got a if you've got a solution that you want to try out and it's gonna be valuable to us, then yeah, come and we'll give you some data, we'll tell you how it works, we'll give you a bit of that kind of domain knowledge that that only we hold.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:33.680
Yeah, uh, and not many other people are doing that.
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:40.880
So if we want it to work for our part of the industry, so independent hourliers, then we kind of have to do that.
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:41.359
Yeah.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:48.720
Um, and a lot of that stuff's kind of based on this thesis that like it doesn't work if we just we do it.
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:53.359
Yeah, if we just like power off ahead, then at some point everyone else has got to come with us.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.480
So if we can enable that, you know, it's not completely self-serving.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.759
It uh we can enable you know our wider network to accelerate as well, then everybody wins.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:08.319
Um and you know, our operators within our part of the industry are are more collaborative than people think as well.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:19.359
Yeah, okay so that we can't we can help other operators, um, and and it doesn't really touch our bottom line because we're so regional, our customer base is regional, you know, we're not we're not fighting each other for customers.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.119
So we can we can collaborate with the the hall here in Manchester that we know, yeah.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:23.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.640
Um and that goes beyond the innovation stuff and the commercial stuff, you know.
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:37.599
We um I mean we we we can give each other back loads, we park in each other's yards, we can we can refuel or charge in each other's depots, and and that's how that part of the industry's worked for a hundred years.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:42.160
Yeah, um I guess all we're trying to do is kind of drag it kicking and screaming into the right century, yeah.
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:43.039
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:43.279 --> 00:24:12.079
Uh and I think it is and and speaking from uh from someone who's been through the the process and we're we're we're quite quite a bit bigger now, but largely actually because of the you know how having the opportunity to work with bigger organizations when you've got a concept you want to try uh and being able to prove it in the real world is is good because of all the things you learn, but also the proof of doing it then unlocks other opportunities and other things because you know we had a situation where we had 18 months of us do doing a load of cool stuff, and then people would go, Yeah, so what are you where where is it working?
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:12.640
What are you doing?
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:13.200
Where's your data?
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:22.480
And you're like, Oh, yeah, we did this thing with two cars or thing, but like actually then going into Connected Places Catapult, you know, working with you know, actually Hyundai was one of the corporate partners, they're now one of our biggest clients.
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:25.759
We work with them across uh all of their dealers in the UK and Genesis.
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:30.799
So it's like it's it's it's such a valuable thing to do, but also, as you say, you guys get loads out of it.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:40.160
I I've come before starting um our technology business, I've worked in the corporate space, and I keep thinking, like, if I was back in that corporate world, I'd want to be doing these things.
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:41.680
It's how you learn.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:53.440
Let the small companies do the thinking and the working out and the legwork, and you guys can, you know, you give them access to your your expertise, but also have access to their different way of thinking.
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:58.559
I think it's and we've we've had some amazing solutions come through that we've we've been lucky enough to test.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.960
So we've done we've done demonstrations with like drone logistics.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:03.599
Yeah, nice.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:16.319
With um, you know, we've we've got like all sorts of cool AI stuff going on from stuff sitting over our CCTV to large language models sitting over our databases, and and all of that's come from Connected Places Catapult.
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:16.880
Yeah, okay.
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:17.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:17.920
Fantastic.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:23.759
Yeah, and definitely that that space, the the AI word is kind of across across everything that we do.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:31.680
But I guess in uh in a lot of uh the areas you're you guys must have bags and bags of of data so that it becomes areas, yeah.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:33.279
But often, like what do you do?
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:34.079
What do you do with it?
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:35.759
How can you get value from it?
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:39.279
Um I guess the AI is really accelerating that.
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:43.759
Yes, um uh a guy I know described it quite quite nicely.
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:46.559
He said it's it's like having a data scientist on the team.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:47.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:53.920
Um, and a a scrappy little independent holia from the east of England can't possibly hope to employ a data scientist.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000
Yeah, but all of a sudden we can do that.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:04.400
Yeah, um, and yeah, you're right, absolutely bags and bags of data, like something like 500 data points coming off a telematics bit of kit on a truck, yeah.
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:09.839
All that planning and order data, asset management, you know, repair and maintenance, just data coming out of ears.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:14.079
Uh, and up until very recently, there was it was telling us very, very little.
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:19.119
Yeah, it was producing invoices and putting a dot on a map and maybe blipping up when there was a fault on a truck.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:28.799
But now we can now we can do all sorts of stuff that we couldn't do before, from predictive maintenance to you know, almost like predictive operations, like what's the future gonna look like?
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.279
Um, and that's such a superpower.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:31.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.960
Um tools like that are gonna become absolutely foundational to to the whole industry, I think.
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:37.279
Yeah.
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:43.200
Um, in a way that in a way that a lot of other industries I think won't won't realise.
00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:57.680
So I I like I like the distinction between you know, like chatbots and the AI that most people kind of engage with and this idea of like industrial AI so when you start to talk about more about like machine learning um and what that means.
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:04.880
Um it just it enables so much and just frees up time to focus on the stuff that the humans are good at.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:05.839
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:07.759
Yeah, and I I I mean I'm I'm I'm totally with you.
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:29.519
I mean, what I've definitely been uh I've been in an AI rabbit hole for the last like nine nine months doing a load of stuff, and I I still think that the limitations of a lot of AI is are our ability to figure out things to do with it because you know, pretty much anything you throw at it, if if you understand how it works and how what things it's best at and how to how to throw it, uh it can come back and do some fantastic things.
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:44.559
And those b organizations like yours with big bits of data, um like so you have them acting basically as an analyst onto that stuff, it's like super uh super valuable, and just things that like you could have done before, but just didn't have the time.
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:48.799
If there was like 10 of you, you could have got those insights because someone could have sat there and explained.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:54.319
I think my my first job at GM, you know, like I I just built and managed a spreadsheet.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:56.000
That was basically my job.
00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:03.519
And now you could probably get a um yeah, get get Claude to do that, run it daily, it'd be twice as good as the thing I built and it'd do it in five minutes.
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:10.240
Um and it's just that those those types of things are so so so valuable, and then it will develop from there once you once you've got that.
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:12.799
So it's it's super super exciting.
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:15.039
Um I'm also excited about telematics.
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:24.160
I still totally digress, but like in one of my very first jobs, I think I was only 19, was the first time we had it's just this ages me.
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:26.720
Um it was the first time like watching a dot on the map.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:30.079
So we work with this fleet and they had, oh, we've got telematics, and they're kind of watching this.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.319
And basically, since then, I just don't know anyone done anything useful with telematics.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:42.079
And we do loads of integrations with telematics of our fleet customers, and basically they just want to know where where it is, and you just think like there's all of that stuff.
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:49.920
You go, we could do this thing and that thing and that thing, and everyone goes, Yeah, great, but can you just tell me where it is, or can you just like remotely lock it if the customer doesn't pay us?
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:59.359
The amount of value that we can get now from something as simple as that that's been around for 20 plus years since I saw the dot on the screen.
00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:06.079
So one of the things in that space that really interests me is that actually, do you need those big platforms anymore?
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:06.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:14.480
So, what those big platforms do is like suck in all your data and they they give they essentially give you dashboards, dashboards, and reports.
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.079
But we're now in a world where we can we can probably do that ourselves, yeah.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:23.599
Yeah, and the important piece, the bit the bit that's really valuable is the data, and that's and that's ours.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:24.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:33.920
So so is there a world where we can we can do away with the expense of SaaS platform um and just do something interesting with with the data that's already come on off the trucks?
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:34.640
Yeah, definitely.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:38.400
I think that customization piece, I mean, it's it's super interesting for us.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:42.480
You know, our primary business tomorrow's journey is a is a SaaS business.
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:50.400
So, you know, there's we're looking at this really closely in a lot of the things that we we do with a kind of ERP system for our customers in their their operations.
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:54.640
So that's the thing you actually get you want it needs to be super reliable and robust.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:30:02.079
But actually, where previously, where we've kind of shoehorned things into our software or other bits where some someone wants something custom, now you just build it now.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:03.599
You just kind of can't build that thing.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:17.680
We did a telematic, so one of our um customers in Germany, software customers in Germany asked for some telematics stuff, and instead of trying to force it into the SaaS, we just build them a custom dashboard because it's so much quicker and easier to do.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:24.799
And I think there's definitely going to be a big transition in that people are gonna be able to get more of what they want quicker and easier with a lot of these tools.
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:26.240
Yeah, it's gonna be liberating.
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:34.400
When when when you're looking at these solutions, it used to be that yeah, you'd want to see the dashboard, you want to see how customisable the reports are, all that stuff is really, really important.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:38.480
Now my only question is you know, is there an API or is there an MC M MCP server server?
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:39.039
Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:40.079
And then and then it's fine, yeah.
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:43.519
If it does what it needs and I've got an MCP server, then I'm not worried what your platform does.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:44.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:45.119
Yeah, no, 100%.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:31:01.039
I uh the other day I was in I was in my office in in the AI uh rabbit hole, and uh I actually got a notification from one of the um uh services that that I used saying that they had just launched an MCP connector.
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:06.559
And I literally just went, yes, and like punched the air, and I was going, my wife's coming, she's like, What's happened?
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:09.920
I was like, There's an MCP connector for recent email client.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.359
And she was like, What are you talking about?
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:12.400
Why are you excited about that?
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:24.160
But it's like, oh but now I've got this connectivity because yeah, so previously you'd be wiring all these things up and coding them, and I'm like, well, now I can just MCP connect in, and then now I can when Claude's done a load of work for me, it can then email it to me.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.559
Yeah, but it becomes your operating system, doesn't it?
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:27.920
Yeah, it's the place where you work.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:35.200
We we used to work in emails, that used to be the default, but yeah, more and more we're just we're working in these chat environments, essentially, isn't it?
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:37.119
Yeah, it's a completely different world.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:45.119
Um and it it it's just such an enabler in that when you're when you're busy, when you're and and like Freight is chaos, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:54.000
Uh it means, yeah, like my my my MD absolutely adores that stuff because all of a sudden he doesn't have to ask people to do things for him.
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:58.319
Yeah, he just he just asks Claude and it goes away and it figures it out and he comes back to it.
00:31:58.480 --> 00:31:58.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:58.799 --> 00:31:59.519
That is amazing, yeah.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:00.160
And it's a thing.
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:10.799
Um but the the only problem I found with AI is for entrepreneurial uh ADHD Chris over here is I can't get anything done because I just I have more ideas.
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:17.279
I have five ideas in the time it takes me to complete one of them, which is um five tabs open at one that's still with different chats.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:29.359
Yeah, I've got I've got a Mac mini at home and like three screens, and I can I'm still like working on one and it's it's a nightmare, but I'm not actually finishing anything, so there's a bit of it, there's almost like so many possibilities available for all this stuff.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:30.640
It's uh it's too exciting.
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.480
I'm just gonna build a thing for this, I'm gonna build a thing for this.
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:54.000
I was like, right, okay, I need to start like finishing this stuff, but just but having it as, like you say, your operating layer um is actually something we haven't done in the software business, but it's it's top of my priority list is to put clawed across everything and have it with a number of select MCP connectors where just anyone in the business can just query stuff uh in a conversational chatbot style.
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:56.480
But it's yeah, gonna be super powerful.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:02.799
Um, the most useful thing I've done is I've connected it to my wife's uh osteopath and I've connected it to her booking platform.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:09.200
So now I can just go, what appointments this Rose got tomorrow so I know when she's gonna be home, and it can tell me.
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:14.160
So that's the most powerful bit of Claude is uh the connection directly into Wick's booking platform.
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:16.400
My my hairdresser's really into it.
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:24.640
Um so like every 10 to 12 weeks, I get like an hour of um of AI chat with my hairdresser, and we both have a catch-up on what we've done recently.
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:27.359
Yeah, and he's he's just hooked it all up to his booking system and all that.
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:28.960
So yeah, really, really impressed with himself.
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:38.160
Yeah, and it's talking about the analysis earlier, and I I did uh yeah, my wife's 28 weeks pregnant, and so we're thinking about like winding down her uh we've definitely gone off freight here.
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:39.119
I mean, I don't I don't care.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:40.880
It's my podcast about my one.
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:45.839
Um she's starting to wind down her hours, and I took all of her booking data.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:55.839
So we've connected the MC, she uses like a Wix website for booking, connected the MCP connector, then said to Claude, Can you look over the last year what appointments she's done on what days?
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.839
So when she goes part-time, what day should we do?
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:00.880
And I got a three-page report in like four minutes.
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.160
I sent it to her and she was like, Wow, you you've just done that this afternoon.
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:06.319
I was like, Yeah, yeah, I just been working on it all afternoon.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:08.159
Claude's just made this report.
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:09.440
Yeah, a little bad.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:19.840
Yeah, and I do so I do think there's gonna be a lot of value in it for people like that as well, like your hairdresser, like my wife running a you know osteopath clinics like just freeing up the time for those people.
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:25.920
They're not gonna be like super deep ML queries, it's just yeah, connecting stuff up.
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.719
It changes it changes the barriers to entry quite a lot, doesn't it?
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:37.360
When anyone can build anything, yeah, then the ideas become really, really important, the execution becomes really, really important.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:37.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:43.440
And there's this idea of taste, yeah, yeah, like especially in the like the creative industries, yeah.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:54.079
You know, um, so like you know, you can get Claude to write your LinkedIn post, but actually being knowing whether that's any good or not, or whether that's just nonsense is is is is a skill in itself.
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:55.360
Yes, yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:34:55.440 --> 00:35:08.719
I think that that there's gonna well the way I've described it, particularly in those creative sides, is it's gonna raise the bar, so I shouldn't ever have to look at a really badly designed PowerPoint presentation again.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:11.679
Uh, but everyone's PowerPoint presentations all look the same.
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:20.880
So when you go and stand on stage in front of 300 people and do a talk, and your presentation has been done by a designer or by you, or by people will be able to tell.
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:30.400
There's like the the bar's gonna get raised, but then the the that the the bit that's been done by a human with a bit of help from AI will become noticeable.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:32.960
I think that'll be the the difference in those creative areas.
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:33.840
Yeah, definitely.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:41.119
Um one question actually on the AI, we could just make this into an AI chat now because I'm really excited about it.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:54.400
One of the things I'm I'm interested in more um recently is thinking about running LLMs locally rather than using the um uh kind of paid services.
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:55.519
We're getting a balance of them.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:04.239
So yeah, using Frontier Model, you don't need Claude Fable 5 to some to write you a LinkedIn post.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:09.119
So is that something that you guys are also investigating, getting into how what's what's your thoughts on on that?
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:09.840
This is more for my own.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.119
Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't say we're investigating it.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.519
Like it's something that's definitely on my radar.
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.960
Um, and the the presumption is that those foundational models are gonna become more and more expensive.
00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:23.360
Yeah, none of those guys are making any money whatsoever.
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:31.119
Um, and and we've seen we've seen the direction of travel with the uh the how expensive tokens are gonna start to get for those really advanced pieces of kit.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:37.440
So you're gonna have to you're gonna have to limit your use and to what where where it really brings value.
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:38.079
Yeah.
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:42.480
So yeah, the you know, people talk about you know a local model that can just run on your phone.
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:45.039
Yeah, it becomes really quite interesting.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:37:00.559
Something I saw just recently, which which I thought was absolutely fascinating, and I can't decide whether it's a good idea or not, is um so the the chairman of CATL was talking about using um the the processing power of uh an EV.
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:00.880
Yeah.
00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:06.400
So bringing it bringing it back on topic, yeah, um, as kind of like a distributed processing layer.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:06.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:12.800
So in the same way that we talk about, you know, like V2X technology, everyone's plugged into the grid so we can do cool stuff with energy.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.599
Actually, is Real World where we can do that with processing power.
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:28.800
Yeah so um if I've got if I've got all my trucks plugged in at the depot, yeah, is there is there enough processing power above that to be able to do something interesting where it's not necessarily running on a box, but it's it's spread out across the fleet.
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:33.199
And is is that another way to get value out of these new vehicles?
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.400
Yeah, really interesting.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:35.280
Yeah, it definitely is.
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:49.440
Yeah, and I I think that's going to become more it's definitely a strong um thesis of mine is about the use of local models, which I think will make people think differently about the devices.
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:53.119
You know, think about a truck as a device, you know, what's the processing power?
00:37:53.199 --> 00:38:03.119
Because what it comes down to unified memory, therefore, you know what size of model can it run, like all of those kind of things.
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:10.079
And then maybe then the difference between what's currently in a truck and what might be in the future could be the thing that enables that.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:22.559
And I think people will start thinking more about that with their devices, whether it's your phone, whether it's the computer that you run at home, or what car or or truck or whatever it might be, I think it's definitely interesting.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.480
And I and I think people will start thinking more about sovereignty, yes, yeah.
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:34.320
We talk about data sovereignty and energy sovereignty, and yeah, actually when AI is infrastructure, yeah, that becomes really important.
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:39.599
I mean, we saw we saw Anthropic get fable shut down just because Trump waved his hand and that was it.
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:46.079
Yeah, so if you rely on that uh for your business, yeah, that's and someone else is in control of it.
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:49.920
So, you know, the it's about resilience, isn't it?
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.159
Yeah, and and it and it comes across all these things, whether it's energy, data, AOA.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:56.400
Yes, that resilience is really, really important.
00:38:56.719 --> 00:39:00.719
And we have seen that definitely this year in the the world world has been a funny, funny place.
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:08.719
We've seen you know energy, and yeah, all of a sudden, you know, something happens in the Middle East and our cost of fuel goes up and you know throws everything out.
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:10.639
Um, I definitely see that, yeah.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:36.239
One of the reasons why I got into looking at running local models was that I felt that without a strong like this is exactly how it's gonna happen, I had a strong feeling that access to frontier models is gonna get a more expensive, but also potentially restricted by geography, by yeah, whether it's the jurisdiction that you're in saying you can't use this model or that model, or the jurisdiction that's providing it, limiting it access to it.
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:43.039
Um, so I think having the ability to run your your own stuff is gonna be really important, um, but also being able to protect it as well.
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:50.559
Um, it's one one of the on my long list of things that I haven't done yet that have started is you know for the business where we're talking about get getting clawed across our whole business.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:58.320
Actually, I think I want to try and replicate that with a um you know a strong but you know stable model that can run locally.
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:08.400
So if we're processing all of our meeting reports and emails and other stuff to provide you know client overviews, just do that all within our own ecosystem.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:12.000
I think it's a super interesting, super interesting world.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:16.400
But uh also Stan, you you keep bringing us back to topic and I keep going off it.
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:29.199
So it's uh but I think um but the AI stuff is definitely gonna be an interesting one and something we're gonna talk more about in the uh in the series as as we go through and may get you back on to some kind of AI special that we might might have later on.
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:32.559
Um just want to touch on a couple of bits before we uh before we finish up.
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:34.559
Um autonomous vehicles.
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:37.760
We've also talked about autonomous in the podcast this season already.
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:42.239
Uh I went in my first robo taxi in LA a few months ago, so very interesting.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:50.480
But what's what's the lay of the land in uh in autonomous um freight commercial vehicle world?
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:53.360
I I don't understand why it didn't start there.
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:54.559
Yeah, that's true.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:58.960
Like you there's there's autonomous buses on the road that work.
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:02.400
There's one in Cambridge, um, part of the connector trial.
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:05.519
Um the the the rowboard taxis, you see them buzzing around London.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:08.639
I don't know if they're not operational yet, but they're they're there, they're training.
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:13.039
All these vehicles are carrying people, like the most precious cargo, yeah.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:13.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:18.239
Let me put my packaging or my aggregates on the back here and send it around in the trip.
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:20.960
I don't know why that's not the the the default.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:30.239
Um I think I think when it when it starts, it will be much like the the EV transition and it'll accelerate extremely rapidly.
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:31.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:35.920
Um I often talk about EVs in terms of like our cost base.
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:40.159
So fuel is about a third of our cost base in a single-digit margin industry.
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:44.719
Yeah, suddenly having control over a third of your cost base is is very, very valuable.
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:45.119
Yeah.
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:49.119
Um, another third of our cost space is driver wages and associated.
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:58.480
So you know, we're I think we're a long way from completely removing the drivers from the equation, but but at the same time, there's there's a huge driver shortage, no one really wants to do it.
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:03.679
And we're expending massive resources trying to trying to recruit people into the industry.
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:12.239
Um and the the the runs that are easiest to automate are also the ones that are hardest to recruit for.
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:17.119
Yeah, so it's it's the boring hub to hub, it's pulling containers away from a port.
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:19.840
Um nobody wants to do that.
00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:24.000
Um you're seeing loads of really interesting stuff happening off-road.
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:29.280
Um, moving it onto road is yeah, it's more of a societal problem than a technology problem at this point.
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:29.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:32.239
Investigating it very, very heavily.
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:39.119
Um hitting the barrier, the same barrier that we always hit with logistics that that we haven't got much money to throw at.
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:39.599
Yeah, of course.
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:45.840
Um so you're kind of you're reliant on those partnerships and those collaborative pieces, maybe a bit of grant funding to make something happen.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.960
Yeah, um, but there's some amazing stuff happening, like globally.
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:54.079
Yeah, so a company called Ironride in Sweden, yeah, just doing some absolutely amazing stuff.
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:57.840
Um, cabless vehicles, so essentially a container on wheels.
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.119
So just completely skipped past the safety driver thing.
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:02.559
Yeah, there's not even a seat.
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.719
Um, and that means that means you get more payload.
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:07.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:10.320
Uh you can just the whole thing is way more efficient.
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:12.079
It's it's it's really cool.
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:14.880
Um really cool stuff happening in Texas.
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:18.320
So company called Aurora who are working with Volvo.
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:21.360
So um I love them because they live stream everything.
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:23.679
So there's a little webcam in the in the truck.
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:26.559
Um and they're just they're they're they're they're running every day.
00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:28.639
You can go onto YouTube and you can sit there and watch it.
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.840
If you if you really want to nerd out on autonomous freight, that's the way to do it.
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:34.079
Uh company called Bot Auto.
00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:37.760
Um, they they reckon they're commercially they're they're profitable.
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:44.800
So they're running commercial operations in in Texas, where the the policy landscape is particularly favorable, let's say.
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:45.119
Yeah.
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:52.079
What I think's interesting is that uh in America, especially, they're they're diesel vehicles, they're not EVs.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:59.280
Because that idea of stopping charge charging when you stop, and the lighting that's rover brake just goes away.
00:43:59.440 --> 00:43:59.519
Yeah.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:05.519
So but Auto especially they're they they do like a a thousand kilometres or something overnight point to point.
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:06.639
They don't have to stop.
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:09.119
They can't do that in the EV at the moment anyway.
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:09.760
Yeah, okay.
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:14.480
Yeah, so actually I hadn't considered that at all, but the the two flips on their head a little bit, isn't it?
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:27.599
Rather than them them joining together to create this sort of technological Marvel like a Waymo, actually, what that they may collide with each other and what one somehow reduces the capability of the the other.
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:36.480
I guess there's also an argument that says well you could just you can run them any anytime, they can charge and stop stop and charge and keep going.
00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:45.760
You don't have to again the driver is probably one of the more complicated bits of a long journey, but um but yeah, I suppose it does move remove some of the complexity for for those guys.
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:54.960
The the the stuff that that technology enables that just really really interests me is that kind of system level orchestration of a network.
00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:55.679
Yes, yeah.
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.840
So logistics is all about marginal gains.
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.480
Yeah, there's no there's no silver bullet, you know, you try and you try and make little gains here and there.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:10.880
Um but the place where I think we're probably most restricted is that you know all these different operations are a little bit siloed.
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:11.119
Yeah.
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:21.039
So if you can if you can zoom out a little bit and start to look at the whole system, I think we can you can drive so much efficiency into that network.
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:25.039
Yeah, and and autonomous vehicles definitely, definitely kind of enable that.
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:30.079
You know, we we talked at the start about you know back-to-base operations and be able to charge overnight.
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:36.480
Or what if the vehic when we was done with the vehicle it just poodles off to someone who's got a load of night work and goes works for them anymore?
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:37.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:45.519
And it uh it's a massive opportunity, but there's also a bit of an existential threat in there that we we we just become assets.
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:46.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:53.360
Um and the the people that the people that can benefit are maybe the big platform players.
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:59.119
So, you know, Amazon Freight will have an interest in this, Uber will have an interest in this.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:07.599
Um there's a world where you know, do we do we just end up you know waking up in the morning going in and there's a little ticker or something on the screen that tells us all the jobs?
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:12.239
You know, we've still got the charger, we've still got the warehouses, we still load the trucks, but we don't have a customer anymore.
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:13.440
We're just beholden.
00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:15.440
Yeah, it's freight freight as a gig economy.
00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:16.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:18.880
Is that what we're is that what we're kind of sleepwalking into?
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:19.280
Yeah.
00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:28.400
So I think it becomes becomes imperative that we kind of try and define this ourselves instead of letting someone else put something on us.
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:29.119
Yeah.
00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:36.159
So yeah, important, I think, that the operators kind of get involved in what this looks like, and and now's really the time to start doing that.
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:36.400
Yeah.
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:38.239
Yeah, no, you're you're you're you're absolutely right.
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:50.960
I mean, it's it's super interesting that when um when we started Tomorrow's Journey eight, eight and a half years ago, uh our thesis behind it, and again, as with all these things, we've pivoted a few times and in a different space really now.
00:46:51.039 --> 00:47:02.719
But we thought that when autonomous vehicles generally, the robo taxis or or freight, vehicles would basically become shared, basically would would become uh assets, hardware, uh, and they would just be shared.
00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:09.679
Because at the point that they can basically run all the time in between charging stops, then you want to optimize that that usage.
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:23.599
And what you don't want to do, and I've said this about autonomous vehicles in London, is if if you've got a fleet of 500 Waymos and 500 Ubers and 500 Wave, and they're all running around at 70% occupancy, it's not efficient.
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:24.000
Yeah.
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:41.599
But if there was a fleet of 1,500 autonomous cars, generic, maybe of different sizes, scales, quality, whatever, and then the service provider, maybe I'm signed up to Uber, so I because I use Uber Eats and I use it, or or I've signed up to Waymo because it's I use it for something else.
00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:50.800
You you you have your relationship with the provider, and then the the asset is kind of moving around in between, but it does create challenges of like who who's gonna do what in that.
00:47:50.960 --> 00:48:03.280
There's a bit of like who's gonna fund it, who's gonna operate it, who's gonna make sure they run on time, who's gonna provide the technology, and then the service layer is just the sort of top interface, and someone's got to make money throughout that, and yeah, it's it's interesting.
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:06.639
So, and we were always thinking about it probably in more of that retail space.
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:11.199
We did do some some early stuff in um in the freight um space around that thing.
00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:18.159
So it's yeah, gonna be interesting to see how all of that pans out because it's gonna create huge efficiencies when it does it, but then also for who?
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:20.719
Yeah, and we we talk about this a lot.
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:27.679
Yeah, there's the there's value to be unlocked both in electric vehicles and in automation and AI and all that stuff.
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:38.880
Um, I'd I'd really like it if the operators got a bit of that value, but the the the fear is that all these other companies that are going to enable it, they're they're not gonna be happy on one, two percent margin like we are.
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:39.679
Yeah, absolutely.
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:40.559
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:52.079
Yeah, you've got the you know, there'll there'll be the the front-end interface, however, however that works, and then there'll be the people who have the the money because these things cost money, whether they're an autonomous car or a truck.
00:48:52.159 --> 00:49:00.079
Uh, and then yeah, the middle bit might be the bit that's squeezed and it's it's figuring out who's who's in that middle middle part, you know, become commoditized.
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:04.400
Um without wanting to end it on that, it would just go back to innovation because that sounded doom and gloom.
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:05.760
We talked about some super exciting stuff.
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.599
Existential prices.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.760
Um, but just want to talk a little bit about innovation.
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:23.760
We talked about connected places catapult, um, but I know something that you you guys are working on and you're uh also working on a few interesting projects in this space, something that I'm I'm super passionate about, partly because I benefited from it, but partly because you know I'm getting involved in some of these things as well.
00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:27.840
So just tell us a little bit more about it, keen to promote your uh your programs and other things.
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:47.199
Yeah, so all that work we did um with Connected Places Catapult and the Zero Mission HGV infrastructure demonstrator and all that stuff made us made us realise that there's a huge amount of operators out there that kind of they want to engage, they they understand this is the future of their industry, but they don't have the bandwidth.
00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:47.599
Yeah.
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.760
Uh because they're busy doing the job.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:52.880
So we're we're kind of already doing it.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:58.000
So doing it with other people or on behalf of other people actually is no more no more of a hardship.
00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:01.760
So we've actually spun out a separate organization called 2040.
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:06.559
2040 is the the end of sale date for diesel diesel vehicle diesel HGVs.
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:07.039
Yeah.
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:16.079
Um it's a it's a not-for-profit research technology organization um with a mission to accelerate the transition to the future of freight.
00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:20.159
So not just zero emission vehicles, but all that enabling stuff that we've spoken about.
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:20.880
Yeah.
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:31.199
Um, and yeah, we're we're we're engaging with operators, we're engaging with solutions providers, and the main, the kind of the the core, the core part of this is the idea of collaborative innovation.
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:42.800
So let us let us do the work in the with the grants, with the with the competitive conversations, with the with the research, but give us your data and give us your challenges so we can kind of do it for you.
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:45.760
And then if something good comes out, we can pass it back down the chain.
00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:49.039
Um, and if it's no good, then you you don't have to worry about it.
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:49.440
Yeah.
00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:54.719
Um, also engaging with the policy stuff, which is super boring to be honest, but but really, really important.
00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:56.800
You know, that that enabling part of it.
00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:59.440
So, you know, same same thesis, yeah.
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:02.960
Um, operators kind of feel like it's being done to them rather than with them.
00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:07.360
So let's make sure that that that voice is in those right rooms.
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:17.440
Um, so we've been in front of the transport select committee, you know, spent some time in Westminster talking to MPs, all that sort of stuff, and just kind of flying the flag for the independent operator.
00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:20.000
So, yeah, really, really excited about the project.
00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:26.639
Yeah, I think I think it's I think it's a massive gap um that that nobody's wanted to fill.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:31.280
And it's kind of the logistics way of well, we might as well just do it.
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:34.639
Yes, yeah, if no one else is going to, let's do it ourselves, yeah.
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:35.440
Yeah, no, super.
00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:37.760
Yeah, it's it's uh such a such an important thing to do.
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:46.000
And I think yeah, bring bringing people together in that environment is uh yeah, only gonna result in good good things um in in such an important space.
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:51.280
And and if people listening to this uh want to get involved, what's the some some plugs?
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:52.960
Link on the website, yeah.
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:54.159
Find us on socials.
00:51:54.239 --> 00:52:00.320
I'm I'm pretty um I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, that's where people mostly see me ranting and raving about this sort of stuff.
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:01.840
But yeah, I'm easy to find.
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:03.519
Yeah, that's good stuff.
00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:10.800
Um Jamie, unfortunately, we're running out of time, so I feel like I want to go back into the AI rabbit rabbit hole for uh for another half an hour.
00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:14.000
Uh, but we're gonna get kicked out of the studio, so we're gonna need to uh to wrap up.
00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:16.880
Um thanks for coming on, really, really uh appreciate it.
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:22.320
Super interesting area, and and the work that you guys are doing is is right on that um cutting edge.
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:35.039
So I think um it'd been great to discuss, and uh, and I really would like to you know have another session at some point in uh in the coming months to uh either explore some topics in a bit more detail or see how you guys are kind of moving on with it.
00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:37.599
So I feel like it's a it's a very fast-moving space.
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:40.400
So um yeah, and if I invite you on here, then it's hard to say no.
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:43.119
But I hope you enjoyed it as well.
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:50.639
Um, if if you've enjoyed listening to the uh podcast, uh there's a whole uh another 20-ish episodes uh before this as well.
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:53.039
Uh so check out some of the the previous ones.
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:54.960
Um also like and subscribe.
00:52:55.119 --> 00:53:03.599
This is available uh on YouTube, but also through uh Spotify, Apple, Amazon, and all of the uh the usual podcast places.
00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:05.760
Uh, thanks again to Aeon for supporting.
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:10.480
Uh, thanks again for tomorrow's journey and uh for generational uh for being part of this as well.
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:13.519
And uh thanks for for listening, and we'll catch you next time.