I Worked Inside Canva & Atlassian: Here's what top leaders do differently

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When I was earlier in my career, I just thought the leaders and the CEOs I worked with had it all figured out.
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We're in a market at the moment where there's so much happening in terms of layoffs and downsizing.
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You can end up feeling like a fraud.
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You can end up feeling like you don't know what you're doing.
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What are the founders and leaders in these successful businesses all doing?
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The way that Mel obsessed over the product and over the customer experience was unlike anything I've ever seen.
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When there is alignment between how you're feeling internally and what you're sharing externally with your team,
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it's a lot easier to move the needle.
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What are you observing that leaders are all struggling with?
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When you're saying yes to everything,
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you're not being ruthless about the things that really, really matter.
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You said you have enough good ideas to kill this business.
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If you're a founder or a CEO,
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there's very few people that you can share the weight of that with.
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It can feel quite isolating.
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One thing that founders really need to be careful of is that's a huge red flag.
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Just two things before we get started.
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First is a big thank you for tuning in and supporting the show.
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We're just getting started and your support means so much to us.
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Second, I've been so fortunate in my business journey to have mentors and advisors supporting me along the way.
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But not everyone has access to that kind of advice.
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This show is about opening that door, sharing real experiences from real operators and the people who have guided them.
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In business, it can be lonely at the top, but you don't have to do it alone.
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Thank you so, so much.
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Let's get started.
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Rhiannon, you've supported the leadership teams across companies like Canberra and Atlassian.
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What I'm curious about is while you're on the inside of these fast-moving,
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successful companies, what are you observing that the leaders are all struggling with?
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There's a lot of things.
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One of the things that I have noticed most prominently across every leader
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I've worked with, this could be from a first-time manager right through to a founder or a CEO
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leading a 5,000 person organization is there is a challenge and a struggle in the gap between
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external projection and internal reality.
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What does that mean?
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As a leader, you kind of have
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to present a certain image, right?
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And I think a lot of leaders get caught up in what that looks
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like.
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They feel like they have to be certain.
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They have to lead the team well.
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They have to
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steward things well.
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They have to be set on where they're going and have a lot of confidence in that.
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But the internal reality is most of them are really just actually all of them, I would say,
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are figuring it out as they go.
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And they're just making the best decision they can at the time with
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the information they have available.
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And there's usually a lot of self-doubt.
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There's usually a
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lot of questioning, a lot of back and forth around, do we do this?
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Do we not?
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How do I handle this
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situation?
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And so there can be a bit of a wrestle with that about how you're then projecting to the
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team and the things that are happening externally and what's going on inside.
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And this can feel,
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it can feel quite isolating.
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Leaders, particularly the higher up the ranks you are, so to speak,
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If you're a founder or a CEO, there's very few people that you can share the weight of that with.
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It's lonely at the top.
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Yeah, it is lonely at the top.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Which is why forums like this are so fantastic.
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But that is definitely something I've noticed.
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When I was earlier in my career, I just thought the leaders and the CEOs I worked with had it all figured out.
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I don't know if you had this experience, but I was like, oh, they're just amazing.
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They know exactly what they're doing.
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And the closer I've worked with them, the more I've realized they're just normal people.
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I can share with the audience that with my own business, we've had prospects come through.
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I don't know anything about them other than what I've seen externally.
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And I go, wow, like this is a business that's got it all together.
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They're on the fast track.
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They are killing it.
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The leadership teams clearly knows what they're doing.
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And, you know, they start working with us a bit more.
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And you go, oh, wow, they're not much different between any other business owner that we come across.
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And obviously the strengths that they've got, but that kind of that loneliness at the top,
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the almost kind of insecurity that can come with that is prevalent in every business that we've
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come across.
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It is.
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And I think there's a danger in that gap too, because that's where imposter
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syndrome can come into play.
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And it's how you're viewing that gap too, because there is a difference
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between how you project and what goes on internally.
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And I've got my own thoughts about
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that and how that can be managed.
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But I think if you play into it, you can end up feeling like a
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fraud.
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You can end up feeling like you don't know what you're doing.
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And that's kind of a really
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hard place to be as a as a founder or a ceo or any kind of leader really i remember saying to
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a coach of mine this would have been nearly 10 years ago and i said i you know i threw out the
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term a bit loosely saying yeah like i think i've got imposter syndrome you know there's certain
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situations where i'm just like you know why are these people you know listening to me who am i
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um and he goes really you know you've got you've got imposter syndrome and you know started reading
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out the definition the clinical definition i was like okay well that's not me so when we talk
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imposter syndrome do you mean i mean probably what you're talking about which is this feeling
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of being found out this feeling of feeling like you're a fraud like maybe what you're projecting
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on the outside is very different to the reality inside maybe you're feeling like you have to put
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up a front which is natural to some degree i mean mike kind of brooks did a talk about imposter
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syndrome many many years ago as a tedx talk and that was probably the first time that i really
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had heard about it more broadly how would you recommend leaders listening to this deal with
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imposter syndrome?
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I think it's important to go back to what you know about yourself to seek
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mentorship like you did to bounce off people.
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I also think this is where tools and assessments
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are really helpful.
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Things like a CliftonStrengths assessment can be really helpful.
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What's
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CliftonStrengths?
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Basically you go through, you answer a ton of questions and it will put together
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a strengths profile about who you are, what you're really strong at.
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It ranks I think 45 different
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strengths up and it basically paints a picture of who you are, where you'd be really good,
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what you're really strong at and then where you might have some blind spots, which is really
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helpful.
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There's also assessments you can do.
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There's different tooling.
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There was an assessment
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called Fingerprint for Success.
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It's now called Mali.
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We use that at Canva.
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There's Myers-Briggs,
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which give you a bit of a flavor that can talk to strengths and then potential blind spots based on
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what you really enjoy, what you don't.
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I think it's also really good to go back to basics and
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look at the evidence of your work.
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Look at the productivity.
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Look at the output of what you've
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been able to do and remind yourself of the things that you're really strong at that way.
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And
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sometimes it's good to just have a bit of feedback externally because it is something that comes up
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so often and so naturally.
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It's nice to have the external feedback.
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What are the founders and leaders in these successful businesses
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all doing that the less successful companies aren't doing?
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one of the things that i've noticed about really successful businesses is they are obsessed with
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the thing that they're building that might sound really so simple but i go back to melanie perkins
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right who is one of the founders of canva and the way that mel obsessed over the product and i say
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that in a great way not a negative way obsessed over the product obsessed over the customer
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experience was unlike anything I've ever seen before.
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She was CEO, but she was in that product
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at all hours of the night trying to make it better, focusing on every minute detail.
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There
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was nothing that didn't go under her eye.
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I'm not sure what it's like now, but that made the
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experience for customers incredible.
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And it also was a really wonderful example to the team
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of what it looks like to do things exceptionally well.
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There were very high standards around that.
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So I think having an obsession for what you're building and the people that you're serving is really important.
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I also think the best leaders I've worked with have been comfortable, and I say comfortable enough, being a little bit more transparent about where they're at, being a little bit vulnerable.
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And I'm not suggesting people do that performatively or overshare.
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But when there is alignment between how you're feeling internally and what you're sharing externally with your team, it's a lot easier to move the needle on things.
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There's a lot more transparency.
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The team feels safe.
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It builds a culture of trust.
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And that makes for a wonderful business that can grow because there is trust and loyalty
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amongst the team.
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I feel like the line with transparency can be a difficult one to identify at times.
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If you're providing a lot of information, but there's not a lot of utility, you're just
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kind of oversharing versus if you're just providing information without that vulnerability,
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then people might not necessarily tune in as much or might not care as much.
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How would you recommend people listening kind of navigate where that balance is?
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It's a really, it is a really hard one.
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And I would always recommend founders think about what
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are the team need to know what's going to help them, what's going to keep them feeling really
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engaged, what's going to have them feeling really excited, what's going to put their mind at ease,
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if they're, you know, we're in a market at the moment where there's so much happening in terms
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of layoffs and downsizing and things like that.
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And that can really put people on edge.
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So going back to thinking, based on our values, what do I want to share based on where we're
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heading?
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What do I need to share?
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What's going to bring the team together and orienting around the
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single goal that we have?
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And that doesn't mean sharing everything, but it does mean probably in
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a lot of situations sharing slightly more than has been shared so that people feel like they're
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a part of the journey.
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I think in the time that we're in now, people really want to feel invested
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in the work that they're doing.
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That's not every single person, but a lot of people.
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And so having
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a little bit of insight into that is really helpful.
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Getting that insight as these businesses
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grow, presumably the founders are getting more and more, there's more and more distance between
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them and their team.
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And that might not be physical distance, but there's more and more
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distance as the business grows.
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Do you have any tips on how founders can stay connected with their
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team as the team grows in size?
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It is challenging.
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And I think, especially as you're going from being
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a really small team to a very large team, that transition becomes very tricky and very hard to
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navigate.
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And for people on the other end of that, it can feel quite hard.
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I've seen that happen many
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times.
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But at the end of the day, if you genuinely care about your people, the things that you do,
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the way you interact with them are going to come through.
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People know that you are short on time.
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People know that you have other things to do.
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There's a lot more people to be taking care of
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in the organization than they used to be.
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But people also read intention and they read energy
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and they know whether you're invested in them and they know whether you care about them and they know
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whether what you're doing is performative or genuine.
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Can you recall a time where you were,
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whether you were in a business yourself
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or whether you were advising them
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and it just hit you and you went,
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that's a leader that really cares about their team?
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I've worked with some incredible leaders.
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One CEO I worked with was incredible
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at kind of holding everything
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if they knew that something was going on
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for a team member of theirs.
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So I know that there was a situation
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where a member of the team was going through something really quite awful with their family
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and obviously the natural inclination is to be kind and empathetic to that but this person
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basically said hold all business like we've got you don't worry about a single thing you go you
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you go over and see your family you do whatever you need to do and they genuinely meant it I feel
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like I've also seen instances where that's been the response but there has been some maybe
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frustration or some things kind of building internally that mean that there might be a
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little bit of resentment, not toward the person, but toward the situation.
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And so the leaders that
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I've seen that genuinely care about their people, they make it known, they communicate that.
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It is evidenced in their actions, not just what they say.
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It's not an action which is like, hey, you owe me.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Or I'm going to do you a favor.
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Yeah.
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You also mentioned earlier, we talked about the two things that you've observed in high
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performing successful businesses that they're doing in common that you haven't observed as
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much with those businesses that might not be as successful.
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You mentioned obsession and
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transparency.
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We've talked about transparency, but just circling back to obsession, you mentioned
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with Melanie Perkins, how just showing up, she was there obsessing over every detail.
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You didn't say
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kind of first to arrive, last to leave, but that's the kind of, that's how I kind of felt about it.
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How do you recommend a leader balances that with a sustainable culture?
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It's a really great,
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Great question, because I've always said to the leaders that I've worked with, whatever tone you set is a tone that you set for the business, right?
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And although you might communicate, hey, this isn't what's expected of you.
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This is just how I operate.
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People still pick up on those cues.
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So I think there's got to be some active conversation around that.
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And I think for a leader managing that personally, Mel absolutely loves what she's doing.
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She is just all in.
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She lights up when she talks about it.
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she is so engrossed in Canva as a product, as an organization, in its people.
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And so it's very easy
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for her to do that and feel very fueled by that.
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And then there are people that need to kind of
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find a bit of a balance and set a bit of a boundary for themselves.
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There are simple things that you
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can do.
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And I've suggested this to CEOs and leaders that I've worked with in terms of helping to
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manage the team's own expectations around what's required of them.
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Little things like don't
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communicate at midnight.
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You know, if you've got something to say, that's great.
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Schedule it for
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later.
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It's such a little thing.
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It feels, even if you say, hey, no need to respond to this.
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I'm
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just like spitballing.
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I'm just doing my thing.
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Setting some boundaries around how you're
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communicating with your team is really helpful because they take the lead by action.
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And this is
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something I see so often in leaders is they say the right things and they're communicating the
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right things, but what they're doing is kind of undoing that.
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Yeah.
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It's kind of undoing the
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words and that's not that's not intentional it's just the nature of the beast people take cues off
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actions and and how people are moving we acquired another company about three years ago and so
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there's about 20 team members that came across to join to join my company and one of the things that
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we kind of got feedback on and specifically about me it's like hey Ben's Ben's in the office when I
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arrive Ben's in the office where I leave I I feel like I've got to be there at least either when he
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arrives or when he leaves and I was just like that's not an expectation at all like and no one
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had ever said that but it was a really good learning for me that I was like I never set
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that expectation but just my presence made them feel oh well you know I need to be working hard
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at this clearly I need to work more than I normally do yeah exactly you can say it you can
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say and you can truly mean it you can be like I truly mean it I really don't I really don't need
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you to be doing these hours it's my business I take that responsibility I'm all in I don't expect
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you to be, but they'll still pick up on those cues.
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What behaviors serve founders well early on,
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but start to work against them later in the business journey?
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I think having a resourceful scrappy nature in the early days is really wonderful.
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It's how you get
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things going.
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You're in the grind.
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You're like doing all the things you can yourself to save
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money and to make, you know, to make margins as high as possible.
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But that can actually undo a
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founder later on when they're not willing to let go of things and they're not willing to actually
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start to delegate some of that stuff and invest in things that they know that they could do
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themselves, but it's actually not the best use of their time.
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So that's one thing that comes to mind.
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Does that come back to control?
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It can.
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There can be a real fear around that for founders, especially if they're good at what
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they're doing.
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There can be a huge fear around, if I let this go, is this other person going to do it
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as well as I would?
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Am I going to like how they do it?
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I reckon there's a ton of people listening right now that are going, yeah, that's me.
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Yeah.
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What would you say to them?
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give it up sooner than you need to.
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And that's really difficult.
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I think
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typically what I've observed is that it takes getting to a little bit of a crisis point for a
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fan.
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I say crisis lightly, but it can be, it can be quite dramatic.
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It takes them kind of getting
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to a head where they're like, okay, this has to stop.
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I cannot manage this anymore.
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But letting
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go is going to feel really difficult whenever you do it.
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The sooner you do it, the more comfortable
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you get with it and you minimize the risk too because there's a transition period there's a
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handover period and you can kind of learn to lean into that over time you start with one thing you
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build it up you start with one person one role you build that up over time i say to my senior leaders
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if your team members are not making mistakes then you're not delegating enough and you're not giving
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your junior people enough opportunity to stand up and that's not to encourage widespread mistakes
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but ultimately if everything is perfect then we're perhaps where we are kind of wrapping people in
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cotton wool a bit too much yeah yeah totally i'm looking at a post that you made on linkedin last
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month which i'll put up on the screen for those watching but it says i've sat next to a founder
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who knew and i mean knew that someone on their leadership team wasn't right for the role anymore
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they said it privately they worked around it daily but the conversation never happened because the
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person was early, loyal, and liked.
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It resonated with me because I've worked with a number of
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founders who were being held back by a childhood friend or one of their first hires.
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And usually
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it's both.
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They get so stressed about it.
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They know it's an issue that's stressing them and
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it's stressing their team, but they delay and avoid it.
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And you know what the crazy thing is?
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As soon as they move that person on, they go, oh my God, this is such a relief.
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I should have done
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this sooner.
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In your experience, what's the damage in delaying that decision?
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there can be so much damage done by that.
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One of the biggest things that I see as a fallout of that
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is a bit of a corruption in the team itself.
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And there's a myriad of reasons why that person might
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not be working.
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It might be because there's now a cultural misalignment.
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They're not living into
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the values.
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They've turned into a bit of an asshole.
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I've seen it happen.
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It could be that
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they're underperforming.
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And all of that stuff breeds in the team.
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And it can be quite toxic
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and contagious.
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So I think it's really mindful to be aware the longer that you let that go,
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it's harder for the team.
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They see something being accepted that maybe
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doesn't align with who they know you to be, it doesn't align with who they know the organization
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to be.
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It can be quite confusing.
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And then it creates more damage over time.
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The longer you
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leave it, the more of a gap there is to fill.
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And I think the thing is founders might think,
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or leaders in general might think they're like holding it all in and doing a really good job.
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But I tell you what, every single time the person on the other end knows something's going on.
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Every single time.
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They feel it.
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There's an energy shift.
380
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Again, because we're talking about it's not about the words that you say where you say, yeah, it's all good.
381
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Like, we're great.
382
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Crack on.
383
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But there's a resentment that starts to build.
384
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Typically, this is what I've noticed.
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There's a resentment that starts to build within the founder or the leader because they're frustrated that expectations aren't being met.
386
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Meanwhile, they're not clearly communicating those expectations.
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you've got someone that's underperforming or not kind of in line with where the company is going
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and someone who doesn't want to have the conversation and it's breeding this
389
00:19:00.284 --> 00:19:03.860
discontent i suppose if you don't have those clear expectations or don't hold them accountable
390
00:19:04.021 --> 00:19:08.398
did the employee or in this case the friend is thinking what the hell is your problem yes yeah
391
00:19:09.242 --> 00:19:12.180
and you think you're being all clever and you're like i'm just like gonna let it go
392
00:19:12.883 --> 00:19:17.000
figure out another way to handle this they can always feel it every time that i've observed that
393
00:19:17.020 --> 00:19:21.900
And it happens a lot in businesses because like you said, that usually the business is just ultimately outgrowing them.
394
00:19:22.040 --> 00:19:26.480
And that sounds that doesn't sound nice, but usually it's a change in values or whatever it might be.
395
00:19:26.800 --> 00:19:31.840
But every time they finally make that decision, they are just overjoyed and so happy that they've done it.
396
00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:33.480
And as you said, look, the sooner the better.
397
00:19:33.860 --> 00:19:34.680
Yeah, absolutely.
398
00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:40.280
If someone listening knows exactly who this person is in their business, what should they do in the next two weeks?
399
00:19:40.961 --> 00:19:42.520
Figure out what you want the outcome to be.
400
00:19:42.881 --> 00:19:43.343
I would say.
401
00:19:43.604 --> 00:19:47.720
Sometimes the conversation isn't this person needs to leave, it's this person
402
00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:52.478
needs to be in a different role, or it's this person needs to work in a different team.
403
00:19:52.679 --> 00:19:52.820
But I
404
00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.354
think the first thing to do is figure out what is the ideal outcome?
405
00:19:55.374 --> 00:19:56.520
What do you want from this?
406
00:19:56.600 --> 00:19:59.814
What's going to be the most beneficial for you and for your team?
407
00:20:00.256 --> 00:20:01.240
And once you've got that figured
408
00:20:01.361 --> 00:20:05.580
out, soundboard it with people, trusted advisors, if you've got a co-founder, talk it through with
409
00:20:05.620 --> 00:20:08.330
them, a leader on your team, if you trust them.
410
00:20:08.892 --> 00:20:10.960
And then once you've made the decision, have the
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conversation as quickly as you can.
412
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Do it kind, graciously, tell them where you're at,
413
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try and help them understand how this has kind of come to this point.
414
00:20:21.934 --> 00:20:23.880
And I would also say
415
00:20:24.622 --> 00:20:29.820
one thing that founders really need to be careful of is making sure that this conversation isn't a
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00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:30.422
surprise.
417
00:20:30.503 --> 00:20:31.527
I see this happen a lot.
418
00:20:32.029 --> 00:20:34.660
It's kind of threading into, you know, the culture of feedback.
419
00:20:35.603 --> 00:20:41.540
but if this conversation is coming as a shock to this person that's a huge red flag there should
420
00:20:41.580 --> 00:20:46.280
have been conversations along along the way to indicate hey something's not quite working here
421
00:20:46.862 --> 00:20:51.320
and a resetting of expectations around that so if this is the first conversation you're having
422
00:20:52.665 --> 00:20:57.120
table what it is that you're seeing what you're observing what it is you would like to see happen
423
00:20:57.582 --> 00:21:02.740
if you want to give them an opportunity to improve or reset the expectations do that
424
00:21:03.060 --> 00:21:13.180
But if you've made the decision that ultimately the best thing for you and the business is for them to move on, lovingly tell them that and support them through that and rip the band-aid off as quickly as you can.
425
00:21:14.120 --> 00:21:22.340
I imagine the danger here is in a lot of these cases when they finally make the decision, they've finally done it because the frustration is boiled over.
426
00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:23.752
Yeah.
427
00:21:23.820 --> 00:21:23.903
Yes.
428
00:21:24.421 --> 00:21:27.800
Yes, usually it's gotten to a point where it's like, I cannot deal with this anymore
429
00:21:28.663 --> 00:21:32.820
because it hasn't been proactively managed or discussed along the way.
430
00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:37.880
And then it's a lot harder to have that conversation because there's a lot of emotion behind it.
431
00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:38.619
It's very charged.
432
00:21:39.122 --> 00:21:44.240
One of the things I was reflecting on before we sat down was my own leadership journey
433
00:21:44.501 --> 00:21:48.960
and how I've needed to evolve or level up as my business has grown.
434
00:21:49.983 --> 00:21:55.420
and in hindsight, it's obvious to me that each time that's happened, I've realised that
435
00:21:56.062 --> 00:21:56.904
a little bit too late.
436
00:21:57.706 --> 00:22:02.520
Are there key transition points in a leader's journey as their business
437
00:22:02.600 --> 00:22:04.608
grows that they need to look out for?
438
00:22:06.153 --> 00:22:07.137
It's a really good question.
439
00:22:07.277 --> 00:22:08.060
I think there's a lot of
440
00:22:08.080 --> 00:22:12.420
them, but I think your experience isn't uncommon and that's from my personal experience as well,
441
00:22:12.981 --> 00:22:17.560
in that usually it takes something like starting to go wrong or something to wobble for you to
442
00:22:17.962 --> 00:22:21.958
I probably should have got on the front foot of that before that moment came.
443
00:22:22.058 --> 00:22:22.520
But as you're
444
00:22:22.540 --> 00:22:26.740
growing a business, there's so many transition points and I think about them as identity shifts.
445
00:22:26.820 --> 00:22:31.800
There's a lot that needs to be let go as you're stepping into a new seat, whether that's the same
446
00:22:31.860 --> 00:22:36.396
role, a different role, or whether it's just bigger responsibility, a larger team.
447
00:22:36.617 --> 00:22:37.400
And there's
448
00:22:37.460 --> 00:22:41.353
quite a lot that kind of comes into play as you're doing that.
449
00:22:41.453 --> 00:22:43.520
If you're a founder, you go from being
450
00:22:43.580 --> 00:22:46.900
the person that does absolutely everything yourself, building everything yourself, being
451
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:51.000
the one to carry the vision, knowing exactly where you're going to, and then having to hire people to
452
00:22:51.060 --> 00:22:56.480
help you along the way and relegate a lot of that responsibility to them to give them full trust
453
00:22:56.821 --> 00:23:00.174
that they're going to be able to do the things that you need them to do.
454
00:23:00.194 --> 00:23:01.780
And that starts with
455
00:23:02.342 --> 00:23:06.100
people that are going to do things that you can't do, the things that you don't know how to do,
456
00:23:06.280 --> 00:23:08.630
which is an exciting time for leaders.
457
00:23:08.691 --> 00:23:10.820
And then it moves into the space that gets a little bit
458
00:23:10.900 --> 00:23:15.880
scary where you've got to start hiring people and bringing people in who can do the things that you
459
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:16.342
can do.
460
00:23:16.522 --> 00:23:19.533
You mentioned it's about you need to start letting things go.
461
00:23:19.553 --> 00:23:21.239
Is there a kind of a
462
00:23:22.604 --> 00:23:25.494
an order in which you'd suggest founders look at that?
463
00:23:25.554 --> 00:23:27.320
You mentioned before then maybe it starts
464
00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:32.560
with getting in people to do things that they can't do or perhaps don't do very well, don't
465
00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:33.142
want to do?
466
00:23:33.624 --> 00:23:37.160
I think that's it's the most natural start and it's usually the one founders come to
467
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:38.787
the conclusion of really quickly.
468
00:23:38.827 --> 00:23:39.972
It's I can't do this part.
469
00:23:40.012 --> 00:23:40.896
I'm not an engineer.
470
00:23:41.277 --> 00:23:41.880
I need to hire an
471
00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:47.020
engineer for instance it's very easy to notice where your strengths aren't and hire into those
472
00:23:47.100 --> 00:23:51.360
it's a lot harder to know where your strengths are and decide that's still not the best use of
473
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:55.279
your time and that you now need to outsource that as well or delegate that to someone else
474
00:23:55.681 --> 00:24:00.520
have you come across situations where the founder is trying to figure out the problem
475
00:24:03.167 --> 00:24:08.300
within the business when it's actually been them that's the problem that they're the bottleneck
476
00:24:09.565 --> 00:24:13.020
founders tend to look at what's practically happening in the business they notice gaps
477
00:24:13.140 --> 00:24:17.659
they notice slowness they know notice things aren't moving as efficiently or effectively as
478
00:24:18.161 --> 00:24:23.240
they want them to and it's very easy to go i haven't changed i'm doing all the right things
479
00:24:23.381 --> 00:24:27.100
so it's a problem with the people beyond me it might be a problem with the team it might be a
480
00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:32.099
problem with the processes rather than reflecting on actually this is something that i need to
481
00:24:32.762 --> 00:24:37.420
dive deeper into and figure out what it is that i now need to let go of or what i need to do
482
00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:38.022
differently.
483
00:24:38.705 --> 00:24:42.940
I have worked quite closely with a founder who, you know, business was growing,
484
00:24:44.301 --> 00:24:48.600
sales were kind of struggling a little bit, things like the team was growing, we had really fantastic
485
00:24:48.781 --> 00:24:52.880
talent, it was all looking really positive, but we weren't seeing the traction that we needed to
486
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:53.884
see within the business.
487
00:24:54.487 --> 00:24:57.018
And by all accounts, we were doing the right things.
488
00:24:57.038 --> 00:24:57.520
We had the right
489
00:24:57.580 --> 00:25:02.120
marketing strategy, we had the right partnership strategy, we had the right people in the right
490
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:02.561
seats.
491
00:25:02.722 --> 00:25:08.160
And yet what was actually happening is the founder was saying yes to every good idea that
492
00:25:08.260 --> 00:25:09.626
crossed their desk.
493
00:25:09.686 --> 00:25:13.040
It was yes, yes, yes, we need momentum, we need to go harder, we need to grow
494
00:25:13.080 --> 00:25:14.507
this business, we need to scale.
495
00:25:15.110 --> 00:25:17.320
And I think that ended up being a little bit of a downfall,
496
00:25:17.421 --> 00:25:20.460
because when you're saying yes to everything, you're not being ruthless about the things that
497
00:25:20.560 --> 00:25:21.284
really, really matter.
498
00:25:21.364 --> 00:25:24.900
I always like to say, if you've got too many priorities, then you have none
499
00:25:24.980 --> 00:25:25.362
at all.
500
00:25:25.884 --> 00:25:29.980
And I think that realization didn't come until much later for this founder that actually,
501
00:25:30.161 --> 00:25:33.060
I need to pare back, not go all in on everything.
502
00:25:33.822 --> 00:25:36.100
And it was their eagerness and their zeal
503
00:25:36.241 --> 00:25:39.420
that actually kind of put a hold on things.
504
00:25:39.802 --> 00:25:41.360
That reminds me, there's this clip,
505
00:25:41.521 --> 00:25:43.180
I'll put it in the kind of show notes,
506
00:25:43.721 --> 00:25:44.720
and it's of Jeff Bezos.
507
00:25:45.121 --> 00:25:46.620
And he had a very capable advisor,
508
00:25:47.301 --> 00:25:49.440
I think 20 or 30 years ago when he was building Amazon.
509
00:25:49.721 --> 00:25:50.980
And he said to Jeff, he said,
510
00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:54.200
Jeff, you have enough good ideas to kill this business.
511
00:25:56.303 --> 00:25:56.506
Wow.
512
00:25:57.498 --> 00:25:57.640
Yeah.
513
00:25:57.921 --> 00:26:06.960
It's only so much, even with a capable team, even with the right systems and processes in place, there's only enough bandwidth to be able to process so many good ideas well.
514
00:26:07.542 --> 00:26:08.159
Oh, totally.
515
00:26:08.885 --> 00:26:09.199
Totally.
516
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:14.698
And ideas are wonderful and ideas are exciting, but ideas aren't execution.
517
00:26:15.461 --> 00:26:16.280
It's how you execute.
518
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:17.920
Can you actually execute on the ideas?
519
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:20.340
And when you're trying to execute on too many, you're not executing well.
520
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:24.740
And then it all falls flat, which is kind of counterintuitive to the whole.
521
00:26:24.861 --> 00:26:29.400
have lots of eggs in lots of different baskets, but you do need to be quite strategic about that.
522
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.836
Is there a process that founders can follow to kind of triage those ideas?
523
00:26:34.217 --> 00:26:34.900
You mentioned before
524
00:26:36.024 --> 00:26:39.880
in your example that the founder was just kind of giving the green tick saying, yep, let's do it.
525
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:40.462
Yeah, let's do it.
526
00:26:40.483 --> 00:26:41.246
That sounds great.
527
00:26:41.929 --> 00:26:44.400
What would you recommend to the audience if they're thinking,
528
00:26:44.540 --> 00:26:45.825
geez, that sounds a little bit like me.
529
00:26:46.287 --> 00:26:49.640
I've got all these great ideas and I think I might be
530
00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:54.620
overloading the team or letting maybe, you know, not vetting these ideas enough, not being ruthless
531
00:26:54.761 --> 00:26:56.208
enough with these ideas, as you mentioned.
532
00:26:56.549 --> 00:26:58.238
Is there a process you'd recommend?
533
00:26:58.378 --> 00:26:58.740
What I would
534
00:26:58.780 --> 00:27:01.735
always do is go back to first principles, go back to the strategy.
535
00:27:01.775 --> 00:27:02.840
What's the strategy for your
536
00:27:02.900 --> 00:27:03.242
business?
537
00:27:03.282 --> 00:27:04.367
What are you holding fast to?
538
00:27:04.407 --> 00:27:05.191
What's the vision?
539
00:27:05.773 --> 00:27:06.758
What are your values?
540
00:27:06.899 --> 00:27:07.200
What are the
541
00:27:07.260 --> 00:27:11.720
things that you're filtering for day to day in your people, with your customers, the way that
542
00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:12.884
you're delivering your work?
543
00:27:13.326 --> 00:27:17.440
And being really fanatical about what fits that, what fits the
544
00:27:17.540 --> 00:27:22.020
DNA of where you're going, what's going to be highest leverage, because there might be 10 ideas
545
00:27:22.100 --> 00:27:26.140
that will work in some way, but you really want to pick the top two that you're going to see the
546
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:27.104
highest return on.
547
00:27:27.667 --> 00:27:29.455
And it's sometimes hard to predict that.
548
00:27:29.475 --> 00:27:30.420
So you've also then got to be
549
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:32.129
willing to drop it when it's not working.
550
00:27:32.149 --> 00:27:34.060
And sometimes that conversation happens a little
551
00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:37.112
bit later than it should, because it's hard to let go.
552
00:27:37.132 --> 00:27:39.320
So I would always go back to what's the
553
00:27:39.380 --> 00:27:39.842
strategy?
554
00:27:39.922 --> 00:27:40.665
What's the vision?
555
00:27:40.766 --> 00:27:42.212
What's our DNA as a business?
556
00:27:42.332 --> 00:27:44.200
What is most in line with those things?
557
00:27:44.341 --> 00:27:47.119
what speaks most to those things and then go hard on those.
558
00:27:47.903 --> 00:27:49.800
I think there's a great learning there if you're going,
559
00:27:49.900 --> 00:27:51.440
hey, I don't have a framework yet for this
560
00:27:51.460 --> 00:27:53.540
because my business is still growing up.
561
00:27:53.781 --> 00:27:56.780
We're moving from a startup into more of an emerging corporate.
562
00:27:57.822 --> 00:28:00.740
If we don't have a framework, well, let's go back to first principles.
563
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:02.620
Let's go, well, is this aligned with our strategy?
564
00:28:03.326 --> 00:28:04.440
Or how are these five ideas?
565
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:07.300
Let's rank them by which one gives us the biggest alignment with our strategy,
566
00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:09.200
the biggest return on what we're looking to achieve.
567
00:28:09.401 --> 00:28:11.520
And failing that, are we staying true to our values?
568
00:28:11.922 --> 00:28:12.680
Yeah, it's a great filter.
569
00:28:13.441 --> 00:28:17.140
I'm curious when people reach out to you for your help with their business,
570
00:28:17.401 --> 00:28:18.660
do they know what's wrong with their business?
571
00:28:19.381 --> 00:28:23.419
Often they'll think it's something else than what it really is.
572
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:26.060
There's a lot of interconnected challenges within businesses.
573
00:28:27.061 --> 00:28:29.320
People might come and say, I feel like our ops aren't working
574
00:28:29.421 --> 00:28:31.600
and things just feel really hard and we're not getting enough done,
575
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:33.940
but they won't know exactly why that is.
576
00:28:34.020 --> 00:28:36.920
Often sitting below that isn't an ops problem, it's a structure problem
577
00:28:37.021 --> 00:28:39.260
and it's a way that the org chart is structured
578
00:28:39.501 --> 00:28:42.680
and it's a founder bottleneck issue rather than an operational issue.
579
00:28:43.120 --> 00:28:43.960
They're all kind of connected.
580
00:28:44.140 --> 00:28:46.340
So very rarely do people know straight off the bat
581
00:28:46.502 --> 00:28:47.940
exactly what's wrong with their business.
582
00:28:48.380 --> 00:28:49.440
How do you help them diagnose that?
583
00:28:50.442 --> 00:28:52.600
We look across a number of pillars within their business.
584
00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:55.540
So the strategy, is that really clear, easy to understand?
585
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:56.239
Is it simple?
586
00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:58.940
The structure of their business, the organisational design,
587
00:28:59.040 --> 00:29:02.180
the operating rhythm, and then also the leadership alignment and effectiveness.
588
00:29:02.840 --> 00:29:05.720
We've got a scorecard that we use as an initial jumping off point
589
00:29:05.760 --> 00:29:07.680
that assesses, and I think you've done this actually,
590
00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:08.579
You've got great results.
591
00:29:09.100 --> 00:29:14.940
Assesses 10 key territories across these pillars and kind of gives you a quick read on where things maybe aren't landing, where there's some gaps.
592
00:29:15.641 --> 00:29:20.400
And then we have the team members do that assessment as well to find out where there's misalignment.
593
00:29:20.581 --> 00:29:25.600
Do you find that the problems are usually quite simple or complex?
594
00:29:28.265 --> 00:29:29.360
They're usually quite simple.
595
00:29:30.664 --> 00:29:31.860
They're usually quite simple.
596
00:29:32.401 --> 00:29:35.940
It's often not a big transformation that a business needs.
597
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:38.160
with simple things that have a real flow on effect.
598
00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:39.400
Do you have some examples of those?
599
00:29:41.622 --> 00:29:43.940
Not having the right organisational structure in place
600
00:29:44.001 --> 00:29:45.540
with authority that people are clear on.
601
00:29:46.002 --> 00:29:47.280
When you say organisational structure,
602
00:29:47.701 --> 00:29:50.620
what I think of is like a hierarchical,
603
00:29:51.142 --> 00:29:53.780
you know, you've got the CEO and then C-suite.
604
00:29:54.161 --> 00:29:55.679
Is that what you talk about when you talk about org structure?
605
00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:56.400
Part of it, yeah.
606
00:29:56.500 --> 00:29:58.360
So when I'm talking about org structure in that context,
607
00:29:58.481 --> 00:30:00.200
I'm talking about roles and responsibilities.
608
00:30:00.560 --> 00:30:01.680
Yeah, an org chart, right?
609
00:30:01.840 --> 00:30:03.860
And it's not, no one likes to talk about an org chart,
610
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:05.740
particularly start-ups, particularly scaling businesses.
611
00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:10.860
like we're very flat structured that's all well and good but what is really important is that
612
00:30:10.940 --> 00:30:14.760
everyone on your team knows what they can make decisions on and knows what they need to go to
613
00:30:14.800 --> 00:30:19.120
you for who's responsible for what and that there's very clear ownership on those areas because where
614
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:23.680
i see a lot of things falling through the cracks is no one's really certain what that is and that's
615
00:30:23.800 --> 00:30:28.520
a really simple fix that's hey you're responsible for this these are the decisions you can make that
616
00:30:28.520 --> 00:30:32.620
are well within your remit these are the ones that aren't if everyone's really crystal clear on that
617
00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:35.880
there's a lot less that needs to be escalated there's a lot less that falls through the cracks
618
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:37.500
because they thought it was someone else's problem.
619
00:30:41.103 --> 00:30:43.120
You spend a lot of your day guiding high performers.
620
00:30:43.841 --> 00:30:45.440
What's something that you find yourself doing
621
00:30:46.227 --> 00:30:47.459
that you tell the leaders not to do?
622
00:30:48.305 --> 00:30:49.200
Oh, good question.
623
00:30:55.860 --> 00:30:56.300
Procrastinating.
624
00:30:59.323 --> 00:31:01.380
And I mentioned Mel's obsession before with the product,
625
00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:01.979
and that's wonderful,
626
00:31:02.162 --> 00:31:03.300
but they can get to a point
627
00:31:03.361 --> 00:31:05.120
where you're spending too much time polishing it
628
00:31:05.804 --> 00:31:08.500
and you just need to kind of ship things and get things out there.
629
00:31:09.061 --> 00:31:11.720
And there probably is never going to be a right moment to make a decision
630
00:31:11.962 --> 00:31:14.200
or make a call or launch a new product.
631
00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:17.340
It's just when it's good enough, it's good enough and you hit go.
632
00:31:17.420 --> 00:31:18.640
Otherwise, you end up stuck.
633
00:31:19.100 --> 00:31:22.680
And the speed with which people move is what determines how successful they are.
634
00:31:23.060 --> 00:31:24.740
I think a lot of us can resonate with that one.
635
00:31:26.523 --> 00:31:28.160
When did you realize it was time to start Foundry?
636
00:31:28.300 --> 00:31:29.740
What's the problem it's here to solve?
637
00:31:32.407 --> 00:31:36.900
I realized it was time to start Foundry when I was noticing a lot of the organizations that I
638
00:31:37.081 --> 00:31:40.680
had worked with directly or indirectly had struggled with the same things they'd struggled
639
00:31:40.801 --> 00:31:44.540
with really simple things the things that aren't glamorous they're not sexy it's the strategy the
640
00:31:44.580 --> 00:31:49.440
structure the leadership piece and getting those things in place is really what allows you to build
641
00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:53.560
momentum and grow and it's not really what a founder is usually focused on obviously they're
642
00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:56.960
focused on their customer and their product or their service and growing the business and all
643
00:31:57.100 --> 00:31:59.469
really exciting things, the marketing, the sales.
644
00:32:00.191 --> 00:32:02.780
And if you're building that all on something
645
00:32:02.840 --> 00:32:06.113
that's really quite shaky ground, it's very hard to be able to scale that.
646
00:32:06.434 --> 00:32:07.900
So when I started at
647
00:32:07.940 --> 00:32:11.977
Gridware, really I was coming in because there was no organizational structure in place.
648
00:32:12.018 --> 00:32:12.459
There was no
649
00:32:13.142 --> 00:32:16.434
processes, there was no frameworks, there was no clear org structure.
650
00:32:16.775 --> 00:32:17.980
And so I was able to build
651
00:32:18.040 --> 00:32:23.620
that from the ground up and it was easy to see the impact that had on the organization and the
652
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:28.517
stark contrast between pre and post and how that enabled them to grow.
653
00:32:28.537 --> 00:32:29.440
When you say it was easy to
654
00:32:29.520 --> 00:32:33.220
see, what comes to mind when you think of that was like, these were these moments that I was like,
655
00:32:33.340 --> 00:32:36.231
oh, I can see the impact of what I had done here.
656
00:32:36.552 --> 00:32:38.680
I mean, one of the examples is for the first time
657
00:32:38.941 --> 00:32:42.920
ever, we had a strategic planning process where we went away as a leadership team and we identified
658
00:32:43.161 --> 00:32:44.085
what our strategy was.
659
00:32:44.206 --> 00:32:47.300
Off the back of that, we built really clear priorities for each team to
660
00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:48.686
execute on every quarter.
661
00:32:49.008 --> 00:32:49.832
We knew what they were.
662
00:32:50.153 --> 00:32:51.138
We knew how to measure them.
663
00:32:51.258 --> 00:32:51.660
They were getting
664
00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:52.062
measured.
665
00:32:52.082 --> 00:32:55.113
We knew whether we did well or we failed them.
666
00:32:55.153 --> 00:32:56.960
And that meant that all of the team at any
667
00:32:57.020 --> 00:33:01.980
given time had a very clear idea of what we were running toward and how we were doing it.
668
00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:04.460
What makes a good strategic planning day?
669
00:33:06.242 --> 00:33:09.918
I think first off, having all of the people in the room that you need to be there.
670
00:33:09.998 --> 00:33:10.260
I think
671
00:33:10.581 --> 00:33:15.260
founders will typically spend a lot of time strategizing on their own, but really bringing
672
00:33:15.561 --> 00:33:17.814
your leadership team in on the journey is very important.
673
00:33:17.834 --> 00:33:18.940
So that's what I would always do is
674
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:24.180
facilitate an offsite where there's discussion and having differing perspectives, different
675
00:33:24.280 --> 00:33:27.916
inputs from those with boots on the ground is always really, really valuable.
676
00:33:28.478 --> 00:33:28.960
I think being
677
00:33:29.020 --> 00:33:32.496
willing to hold the line on what actually is a priority versus what isn't.
678
00:33:32.517 --> 00:33:33.240
There's, like I said
679
00:33:33.300 --> 00:33:36.392
before, there's a lot of ideas that come from those forums.
680
00:33:36.572 --> 00:33:38.640
There's always an abundance of ideas,
681
00:33:39.181 --> 00:33:44.120
which are wonderful, but being willing to say, actually, no, this isn't aligned with
682
00:33:44.823 --> 00:33:46.510
the strategic vision for the business.
683
00:33:46.570 --> 00:33:48.740
We need to cut that is really imperative.
684
00:33:49.382 --> 00:33:53.120
to whittle it down to walk away so that you know that you've got three things to execute on
685
00:33:53.421 --> 00:33:58.560
not 15 how do you decide who's there i mean on one hand if it's just me well these decisions
686
00:33:58.660 --> 00:34:03.360
get made very quickly but they're not they don't have the full context and they don't have
687
00:34:03.842 --> 00:34:08.200
the value of the rest of my leadership team but then how many is too many because then sometimes
688
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:14.200
i find myself pulling together a bunch of people who all have great inputs to give but
689
00:34:15.164 --> 00:34:18.880
it's just not as effective because there's too many people in the room yeah too many heads in
690
00:34:18.940 --> 00:34:22.760
the room and it can get very expensive too right you've got your whole team at an off site that's
691
00:34:22.780 --> 00:34:27.259
an expensive day so you do want to make it worthwhile i would always go to a leadership
692
00:34:27.380 --> 00:34:31.060
team if you've got a leadership team if you're a founder that has a leadership team involve them
693
00:34:31.603 --> 00:34:34.880
i think that's really helpful these are the people that are leading and caretaking the
694
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:38.740
vision for your business and the ones relaying it to their team how many people's too many to
695
00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:43.100
have a leadership team it depends on the size of the business but i would say any more than like
696
00:34:44.023 --> 00:34:48.040
six or seven direct reports it's probably too many okay so if you've got a 50 person
697
00:34:48.261 --> 00:34:48.823
size business?
698
00:34:48.863 --> 00:34:49.746
How many people do you think?
699
00:34:51.873 --> 00:34:52.194
Five.
700
00:34:52.435 --> 00:34:52.676
Five.
701
00:34:52.696 --> 00:34:53.680
No more than five, you think?
702
00:34:53.700 --> 00:34:53.800
Yeah.
703
00:34:54.261 --> 00:34:54.924
I reckon five.
704
00:34:55.245 --> 00:34:55.446
Yeah.
705
00:34:55.526 --> 00:34:58.459
It would depend on the specifics of that business and the shape of it
706
00:34:58.721 --> 00:35:00.510
and the different teams, but yeah.
707
00:35:00.792 --> 00:35:01.234
More than that.
708
00:35:01.254 --> 00:35:02.380
There's too many voices in the room.
709
00:35:02.540 --> 00:35:03.063
Too many.
710
00:35:03.103 --> 00:35:03.706
Too top heavy.
711
00:35:04.289 --> 00:35:04.872
Too top heavy.
712
00:35:04.932 --> 00:35:06.520
I would keep a leadership team lean.
713
00:35:07.080 --> 00:35:10.260
When you're looking to set the strategy of the business, do you see that as something that the
714
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.380
leadership team comes together to determine, or is that something that should be more so
715
00:35:13.581 --> 00:35:14.605
put together by the CEO?
716
00:35:14.986 --> 00:35:18.440
I think largely it's driven by the CEO, but I'm a big fan and I've
717
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.975
seen most success when the leaders feel like they're bought in to that journey.
718
00:35:22.236 --> 00:35:23.040
So I think
719
00:35:23.060 --> 00:35:27.080
it's wonderful for the CEO or the founder to have a really good idea of what that looks like, to have
720
00:35:27.120 --> 00:35:28.066
done their own research.
721
00:35:28.126 --> 00:35:30.540
Obviously, they've got the vision for the business that no one else does.
722
00:35:30.600 --> 00:35:31.303
It's their baby.
723
00:35:31.985 --> 00:35:35.780
But to table that and ask for people to challenge it is, are we on the right
724
00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:36.242
path here?
725
00:35:36.282 --> 00:35:37.789
What about this is going to be really difficult?
726
00:35:37.849 --> 00:35:38.753
Is this achievable?
727
00:35:39.316 --> 00:35:40.280
If it's not, what
728
00:35:40.300 --> 00:35:40.983
do we need to change?
729
00:35:41.003 --> 00:35:42.188
Is there anything we're missing?
730
00:35:42.871 --> 00:35:45.180
And I don't think that I've witnessed
731
00:35:45.501 --> 00:35:50.178
a team come together with that format where anything has drastically changed.
732
00:35:50.299 --> 00:35:50.600
It's just
733
00:35:50.660 --> 00:35:51.183
minor edits.
734
00:35:51.243 --> 00:35:54.320
But what you do get is a leadership team that feels like they're invested, that feels
735
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:58.480
like they're bought in, they've been included in the process, and then can then confidently go and
736
00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:02.120
articulate that to their team so everyone's on board and working toward the same thing.
737
00:36:02.580 --> 00:36:06.159
I think it's so important having confidence that your leadership team will then
738
00:36:06.943 --> 00:36:10.480
communicate that to the rest of their team members in a similar fashion that it was
739
00:36:10.580 --> 00:36:11.343
communicated with them.
740
00:36:11.404 --> 00:36:12.408
Yeah, absolutely.
741
00:36:12.729 --> 00:36:15.440
What's the most important thing that we didn't talk about
742
00:36:15.580 --> 00:36:16.784
today that we should have talked about?
743
00:36:16.804 --> 00:36:21.580
I think just to remember that ultimately,
744
00:36:22.060 --> 00:36:24.532
you as a founder, you as a CEO, you're a human.
745
00:36:24.893 --> 00:36:26.260
You're not going to get it right all the time.
746
00:36:26.560 --> 00:36:28.730
You're not going to make the right calls all the time.
747
00:36:29.433 --> 00:36:31.140
And I think there can be a lot of pressure,
748
00:36:31.240 --> 00:36:32.245
and I've seen it build.
749
00:36:32.265 --> 00:36:35.080
And I've been in that situation myself as a C-suite leader where
750
00:36:35.541 --> 00:36:41.780
there is a feeling like you need to always have everything figured out and know all the things
751
00:36:42.141 --> 00:36:43.648
and be really good at all the things.
752
00:36:43.728 --> 00:36:46.440
And that's just not the nature of how we are as humans.
753
00:36:46.460 --> 00:36:46.500
So
754
00:36:46.520 --> 00:36:50.597
I think it's important to realize that you can be open about that with your team.
755
00:36:50.638 --> 00:36:51.160
You don't need to
756
00:36:51.200 --> 00:36:52.727
have every single answer all the time.
757
00:36:53.329 --> 00:36:54.474
Realize what you're not good at.
758
00:36:54.755 --> 00:36:55.820
Be thankful that you have
759
00:36:56.483 --> 00:36:59.800
someone else doing those things so that you can focus on the things you're really fantastic at
760
00:37:00.023 --> 00:37:01.020
and just double down.
761
00:37:01.763 --> 00:37:05.759
Brandon thank you so much I feel like we've covered so much about leadership and I just
762
00:37:06.100 --> 00:37:10.400
love the fundamentals we went through about in terms of you know ensuring that we understand
763
00:37:10.520 --> 00:37:15.320
what our values are in our businesses that we stay true to those you know use that as a kind
764
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:20.240
of a guiding northern star as we look to build our strategy and then execute on that and then
765
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:24.558
hold people accountable in the team to that so thank you so much for your time today and if
766
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.115
anyone wants to to learn more about Foundry or yourself where should they go?
767
00:37:29.175 --> 00:37:30.480
We have a website
768
00:37:30.801 --> 00:37:36.980
www.foundryconsulting.com.au or I am mostly on LinkedIn and yeah I always love connecting with
769
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:40.780
people but thank you so much Ben it's just been such a lovely conversation I've really enjoyed it
770
00:37:41.005 --> 00:37:41.458
thanks Rhiannon