WEBVTT
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So it's great to see our friends back with us, Mike.
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I don't know.
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This is y'all's first adventure back since uh our color scheme has changed from the red and blue to the teal and gold.
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Um so we uh appreciate Tarpley being part of the Ask Mike.
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But man, Mike, I'm glad to see our friends back with us.
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We got Brian Hikamovich, Dan in Fredericksburg, our good friend Stephen Cox hanging out.
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Are you in San Antonio today?
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Oh, yeah.
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Okay, cool.
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Um I'm hanging out in West Texas.
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Mike's hanging out in the Key City.
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So what are we doing today, Mike?
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What why do we have this gathering of friends?
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I tell you what, the first thing is yes, our colors have changed.
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I'm waiting for the new fight song.
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We'll we'll just have to get on it, composer.
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All right.
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But um, yeah, I'll get Luke McMillan to get working on that.
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Um, but no, today's gonna be a fun one.
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Um, got two of the my good friends that we can talk about how we've known each other in terms of decades instead of just a couple of years.
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And so that's always awesome.
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But it's gonna be a fun little spirited debate on uh the pros and cons of competition in music and band.
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So it's gonna be a lot of fun.
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So uh this is my good friend Brian Hekomovich down at Fredericksburg.
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Uh, I met him a long time ago when he applied for a choir job at Wiley.
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That was a couple decades back.
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It was a while back, yes.
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It was a while back, and then uh and then we've got Mr.
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Stephen Cox, who I remember being uh a kid just kind of wandering around with a clarinet all the way through uh doing his Howard Payne stuff.
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So starting with Brian, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing, and then we'll kick it over to Steven.
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Oh yeah, I grew up uh up in West Texas in the Panhandle, uh just outside Lubbock in a town called Slayton, Texas, and uh was part of uh the course of the band program there.
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And uh then I made my way down to Central Texas and the hill country and uh taught at a couple different schools down here and uh finding myself here in Fredericksburg, Texas, uh down in uh the German town uh with Main Street and all the wineries you could want and all the uh establishments you could want and be Airbnbs and and doing the band thing.
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So it's uh been a great time and peaches, yes.
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You know, I thought peaches were gonna be bigger here, but wine seems to have been taken over.
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Stress increases it's uh huh.
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That's right.
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Yeah, that's right.
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But you know, uh I've been here five years and uh I've had a a really good go of it and just loving every minute of it.
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So excited to be on the podcast today.
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It's an honor to be here and thank you for having me.
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Awesome.
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And and Stephen, I know you're too humbled even mention this because I don't know the exact year, but he's a educator Grammy Award winner.
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So we have like a potential egot in our in our midst today.
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But Stephen, tell us a little bit about yourself, who you're working for, what you're working for, your mission in life, et cetera.
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Go for it.
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Yeah, well, I grew up in early Texas, which if you don't know where that is, it's like right next to Brownwood.
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And if you don't know where that is, it's like south of Abilene, like an hour and a half.
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And if you don't know where that is, it's like to the left of Dallas Fort Worth for about two hours, you know.
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So, right.
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So uh anyway, grew up in rural Texas, uh, taught for a long time in Eastland, Texas with a great crew.
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Um, and uh I'm excited to be here because these are all of you know my favorite people in this podcast right now.
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These are all the friends I have.
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So I'm very excited about that.
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Um I uh I also taught here in San Antonio, did some popular music education, started a program at the Foxtick campus here in downtown San Antonio.
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And now I work for the Willis Wonderland Foundation.
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We do a program called Musical Wonders, where I traveled across the country doing creative music making with teachers, things like improvisation, composition, arranging, all the creativity stuff, the stuff that you need to make music for the times you're not with 60 of your favorite friends and a professional conductor.
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And so that's uh that's what my gig is now.
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And I'm happy to be here today.
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Awesome.
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Cool.
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And I tell you what, with our situation, we have I've got two really good friends in front of me.
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We're gonna do this in a real loosely structured debate format.
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Uh, we're not using timers and Jerry uh Springer.
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Oh no, he's got it.
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I knew he's he's self-moderated.
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Self-moderated.
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Um, but uh to start this thing off, what we're gonna do for our listeners, we're gonna give each person about oh, about up to five minutes or so in that general area, kind of an opening statement and uh for pro and con with the competition.
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I will say that both these guys are my heroes because uh their passion for what they do is unsurpassed, and their passion kind of goes at times in the same direction, and at other times kind of opposing directions, you know, as far as uh what they do in their in their livelihood.
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So this is gonna be a whole lot of fun.
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So we're gonna start with Steven.
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How about your hey, Mike?
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Yes, sir.
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Before we do that, just to make sure that we're clear for anybody that just happens to wander in into not knowing what Texas music education is sometimes predicated on, we have a structure of UIL, and in that structure there are competitions.
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There are contests for marching in the fall, for concert and sight reading in the spring, and just sort of the whole thing.
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It's you know, even I would say the BOA or the the national uh the the national groups that do it's all about who's gonna be.
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I didn't shouldn't say that right.
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The competition is how good can you be, right?
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That that's kind of what the rating system has become in people's minds.
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I'm not sure I agree a hundred percent that that's what it was ever intended to be, but that's kind of what it's become.
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I think it was always intended to be that.
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I agree with you, but it was always intended to be a competition.
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Start of the company.
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Yeah, but they couch it carefully with you know, superior, excellent.
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These are all sound good, right?
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But if you don't get the one, you didn't get the one.
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Yeah, still one.
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So basically that's for those that might be listening outside of the state of Texas, that's what we're referencing when we're talking about competition, is you take your high school group of of kids to a it's almost like a festival setting, not necessarily a festival, but a a an adjudication.
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People sit down and evaluate your group and tell you how they feel you did.
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So that's that's kind of the the benchmark of of where this conversation is coming from.
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Okay, very good, very good.
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All right, Steven.
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All right, as mentioned, I I uh I brought my own timer because I want to make sure that I don't over talk because I do.
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And I made myself notes.
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I've got a 13-point list here for this five minutes.
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So I'm gonna do really good with this opening.
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I'm prepared.
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So uh my argument today is that while competition has benefits that we've all kind of accepted, uh, I believe it also has very serious cost.
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And I also believe that it's possible and maybe even preferable to achieve those benefits through other more um, what would I say, more authentic means than competition.
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So uh I'm sure that we're gonna have a great talk about what the benefits of competition are.
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So I'm gonna go ahead and start with what I perceive as being the cost.
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And as mentioned before, competitions may be direct ranking where we have, you know, 10 students or 10 schools or 10 ensembles, and we rank them from first to 10.
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But it could also be in the rating system where it becomes a de facto competition where everybody is very clearly sorted, uh, very clearly sorted across the five ratings in general, or I guess really only three ratings now, but that's a different discussion entirely.
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So the main disbenfits, the I guess you would call them cost that I would say is uh, you know, the first one is that, and this is kind of the core of it, competitions are extrinsic motivators, meaning it's not about making music per se, it's about this other thing, the receiving of the trophy, the receiving of um the respect of your peers or whatever we tend to project onto that.
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Like making the music is one thing, handing someone a trophy because they made the music based on a rubric is an entirely extrinsic thing.
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All extrinsic motivation comes with some pretty clear cost.
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Um, and this is mostly based on a huge body of research called self-determination theory.
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We did a whole episode on that here at Ask Mike when I was here before.
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That was a good thing.
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Um, but basically, the big risk is that um these things like contests tend to be perceived as very controlling.
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So whoever is running the contest or whoever's directing them towards it, it really puts parameters down on what people are expected to do.
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And as human beings, we actually just really don't like that very much psychologically.
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Secondly, you have this very real risk that you will actually replace intrinsic motivation with extrinsic motivation instead, or prevent the intrinsic motivation from ever occurring.
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So intrinsic motivation would be I just like playing music.
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I just like being in the band.
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I just like going to these football games and doing this stuff.
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I just like improving and getting better, that competitions can come to replace that or stunt the development of that happening.
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So that would be someone who maybe plays instruments all the way through high school and they get to college and they're like, oh, there's no competitions.
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I don't want to do it anymore, because it was never really about the music.
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It was about the competitions.
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That would be an example of that outcome.
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And I've only got 12 more things on this list.
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So I'm gonna go real fast for my remaining one and a half minutes.
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Um, additionally, they tend to undermine the positive relatedness of the students.
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So we see each other as peers or obstacles uh instead of being just peers that we want to help, being obstacles to one another's success.
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Whenever we're sitting up there watching another band perform, we might be going, ooh, I hope they mess up instead of, oh, cool, I love what's happening now.
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It's so cool.
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These people that, you know, are at one community away from mine, they're not our peers.
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They're a competition instead.
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And that's probably bad for collaboration across programs.
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And any competition in programs would have the same effect with the students.
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If you're in a chair ranking with someone else, it is irrational to help them.
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It literally works against that goal.
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And that's that's not your goal, in which case, why are we doing it if it's not the goal, right?
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So um, let's see, there's a tendency for these things to further inequities.
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Think about marching band.
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My God, you can line up the budgets and then break people into the 20% that they're probably going to land in by and large.
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It's not 100%, but I know whenever I was doing marching band, getting a significant improvement in the budget, it improved my score.
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And that was real and true.
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And I don't think many people in the marching band game would disagree, uh, disagree.
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Um, it contributes to job creep.
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Jobs are, you know, a lot busier than they were.
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Now, when there's five, six, seven competitions, winter line, winter guard, whereas Mike, I don't know when you started teaching, but I'm sure when you were in school, uh, the band calendar did not look like it does right now.
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Uh, it doesn't reflect lifelong musicianship.
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You leave school, there's no more music competitions, it's over.
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So, like again, if that's the reason you're doing it, that's gonna end pretty quick.
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Uh, let's see, it can distract from deeper goals.
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There's other things we could be doing.
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So there's an opportunity cost.
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Uh, we can wind up teaching to the test very easily of these contests instead of teaching what we think matters.
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Uh, let's see.
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Uh, what about increasing stress?
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There is nothing more stressful in my life than what area marching contest was.
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Like I think I've had family members die and it was less stressful than area marching contest was.
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So, you know, uh, that's the end of my timer.
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I'll save the five points for later, but that's why I've got my timer.
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Well, thank you so much, Stephen.
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Very good points.
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Mr.
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Brian, you're a good thing.
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Yes, thank you so much.
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And and you everyone should know that Stephen and I are are are just very respectful of each other, of course, but we're also friends.
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And uh I I just start off by saying there's not very much I disagree with what Stephen is saying and and really the the topic of debate, but I think I frame it just a little bit different.
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And uh, and I would just start off by approaching my thing uh or my side or my viewpoint as saying, uh, I don't know if we're really talking about competition or we're talking about toxicity uh in the human element.
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Uh, but that is reality.
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And um, just like a lot of things, I'm gonna try to base things in reality uh as a as opposed to theory and uh perfect worldness.
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Um, but that's that's also needs to be played both ways.
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And out of respect to that conversation and that debate, I want to just acknowledge that.
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Um, competition in school music programs is has always been debated, uh especially uh with music.
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And when it's implemented thoughtfully, I really do sincerely believe it is a force for good and is a net positive for uh students, programs, communities.
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Uh, and of course, it's not without its flaws.
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At its core, competition provides students with shared goals.
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They're usually a much more clear, something tangible to strive forward.
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Um, that gives uh a sense of purpose when it comes to why we're doing what we're doing.
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That's a little more physical, a little more tangible for the students to be able to see.
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It's a little more clear as opposed to always just doing it because we should do things.
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Um, I think that speaks to students just a little more and speaks to people a little bit more.
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Um, we rehearse with more intention.
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Uh, we listen more critically, we take greater ownership of the individual role.
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Uh, I've seen firsthand how competition helps with student buy-in.
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Um, they're not just participating, they're invested.
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They care about the outcome because they care about each other.
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And um, I know uh Steven talked about um not wanting to help the person next to him because that's their competition.
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Um I think that's a culture thing.
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And I and I would tell you, thankfully, in my program, we wouldn't have it any other way where you are helping the person next to you.
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And I'll give you an example of that.
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Um at Area Marching this past year, uh, one of the things that our students love to do is go around to talk to the other bands in the parking lot.
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And and that's they're out there creating memories.
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I know what we often talk about like your memories when you look back are not going to be your score.
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They're gonna be the memories of meeting those kids and having getting rained on in the middle of a performance and and giggling and laughing and having a blast with other people.
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Um, and one of the cool things about it is I saw our kids go on on TikTok because you know, TikTok can get very local sometimes.
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So, not that I'm I'm certainly not following or or friends with any students on TikTok, but they come up and you'll see, you know, a band kid from another town will post something.
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And and I'll see our very own kids, the ones who I can identify, they'll they'll be like, oh, you know, y'all, y'all were awesome.
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We really loved your show.
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Great job.
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And I'll ask that kid, I was like, hey, I saw that comment you made on TikTok.
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I'm really proud of you for saying that.
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But I gotta ask, like, I don't think you even saw their show.
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And they're like, oh, we didn't, but we just wanted a Tom, good job.
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You know, and uh, and and I I think that that comes from the culture that we should be creating in our in our band halls.
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Not and and competition um can be a fun and a spirited thing.
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It also plays a significant role beyond the classroom.
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And I think this is where we get into the reality of competition and what it does for our programs.
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Uh, visibility and credibility.
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Now, we know that our programs are credible with or without competition, but it creates credibility um with other people who are involved in in music and uh or are involved in in school and school districts.
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So uh it helps bring that a little bit closer to home and provides that level of support for schools and communities.
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And whether it's ratings or finals or uh even a measurable growth, it translates into support from not only your town, but your school, your administrators.
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Um, and it often leads to better funding and stronger staffing and more opportunities for students.
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Um, yes, we didn't have the calendar that we probably had 30 years ago, but we also don't have the staff that we had 30 years ago.
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I know Fredericksburg didn't, and I know a lot of the other schools that don't have the staff and the resources that um they had 30 years ago, they have they have much more in abundance, um, regardless of trends and and um and politicalness and and things like that uh to that nature.
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So, just as importantly, I think competition helps develop student confidence and resilience.
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Uh performing under pressure and receiving feedback is something that um we have to do in our life.
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And I think it it appeals to that.
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Uh, but at the same time, students are also in a big group.
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And so they're able to enjoy it for music and the competitiveness, and it does not speak to everybody, but that competitiveness can can be a secondary or even further down on the priority list for students and still have a wonderful experience in band programs.
00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:44.399
I think the self-confidence that it gives students uh because we're able to support our music programs and uh and and grow through our musical talent and performance uh is really what it comes down to.
00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:50.080
And anything we can do to promote that um it can and should be a good thing.
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:54.879
Uh, but these experiences, when they're guided appropriately, can be incredibly valuable.
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.039
And I want to be clear competition is not all positive.
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:10.160
It has a toxicness uh to it, and it is definitely present in music programs today and probably has been for you know decades and generations.
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.599
Uh, and it can be overemphasized, it can be misused.
00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:18.079
Uh, but those are issues of implementation, not necessarily the concept itself.
00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:27.119
And I think that speaks more to the people who created those environments, whether it's directors or school districts uh or even the students themselves.
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:33.759
Uh it's the responsibility on us as educators is to focus on that growth and the artistry and the student experience.
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:40.960
And when competition can be used for a tool and not as the end goal, I don't think it takes away from music education.
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:50.240
It actually strengthens it, it elevates it, and ultimately creates a more engaged and competent, capable student and music program for our schools.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:52.720
And so that's that.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:55.039
Great opening statements, guys.
00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:56.720
That's the first part of this debate.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.279
Or we've agreed for the second part of the debate.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:07.359
Each uh person will submit a point and uh talk to that point, and the uh other person will give a rebuttal to that point.
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.599
And uh, if you could, gentlemen, keep it about two minutes so we can cover lots of material.
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:14.319
If we go, we're not keeping a timer up here, you know.
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:15.920
So just kind of keep it in that area.
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.480
So uh Steven, you're first up, my friend.
00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:20.960
So what what's one point you'd like to make?
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:23.200
Yeah, I did good.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.039
I took notes and and thank you.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.200
I thought that was a great opening statement.
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:37.440
Um I guess what I would like to say is many of the things you talked about, I think were the positive aspects of any team activity and especially music making.
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:38.559
And I took notes.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.440
You know, you said things like uh performance and feedback.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.960
That's not a competition, that's just performing and getting feedback, right?
00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:53.359
And as I looked through all of these things, I could not come up with a single one of these things that requires ranking or rating of people in order to get the benefit.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.200
So I guess my my counterpoint would be in what times is the rating or the ranking required?
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:07.200
Because otherwise, it's just getting together and making music, which I wholeheartedly endorse, getting feedback from respected people, celebrating everybody doing a good job.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:09.119
I endorse every single bit of that.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:16.960
But I have a big problem with ranking and rating, and that's the only thing that, you know, I you like that's the competition aspect.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.759
Everything else is just like the awesomeness of music.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.400
So uh I think I did that in under two minutes.
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:23.359
That would be my question.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:29.119
What are the things that we're talking about today require the ranking and rating in order for it to be beneficial?
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:29.680
And why?
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.839
I don't think any of it is required.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:41.680
Um, and so again, uh we're gonna find a lot of middle ground and similarity in in our belief system, of course, because we're music educators first before we're competitors.
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.400
And uh I've actually had to explain that to students before.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:45.279
Why didn't you do this?
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:46.079
Why didn't you do this?
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.119
It's like, because I'm a teacher first before I'm a competitor.
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.640
And uh, and so uh I'm not disagreeing with that statement.
00:19:52.799 --> 00:20:00.640
However, I think um the part of competition that implements into that is used as a tool into what we're doing.
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.640
And I think it adds a lot of credibility um to the feedback.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:24.640
And so um I think we can also look at uh when you bring in a clinician, if you hear a clinician say, uh, you know, hey, we need to make sure that we're playing with a really good open sound right here, and and clarinets, y'all are y'all need to bring out your moving line and saxophones, you're always too loud, and you know, all the common pitfalls.
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.960
Uh how many times have we heard a clinician say it?
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.279
And the band director goes, I've been telling them that.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.799
And uh, and so uh again, is that needed for competition?
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:40.640
No, but it does get a little bit of uh credibility to some of the statements that we're trying to teach them, some of the concepts we're trying to teach them.
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:48.880
Uh and then I would also uh add in that used as a tool, again, not as the main focus, uh the the motivation aspect.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:58.880
I mean, human beings are mostly, uh I would say most human beings are uh they're they're in they enjoy competition.
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.160
It's fun for them.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:05.279
Um, it can be used as a tool for motivation, it can be used as a tool for improvement.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:14.640
Uh, and I have seen so many students that have used competition as a motivator to get better and then fall in love with music.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:21.680
And and that's kind of where I'm talking about um a more real-world example because I think I've just seen it happen so many times.
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:23.200
Again, not necessary.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:27.279
Um, we can certainly have band and choir and orchestra without competition.
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:29.680
And it can certainly be done at a high level.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:39.119
I just think competition is uh allows that those programs to develop faster and uh become better and become more supported in their communities.
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:41.759
Very cool.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:42.720
Thank you, gentlemen.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.920
And Brian, is there a uh separate point you'd like to make that we could see uh Steven's rebuttal?
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:48.799
Uh sure.
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:58.960
I I think um I would like to hear what Stephen, what you think about the support system when it comes to um the everyday school district.
00:21:59.119 --> 00:21:59.519
Now, obviously.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.680
I'm very rooted in Texas.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:03.440
Um, I've only taught in Texas.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:09.200
And and you, my friend, have been able to be much more traveled in around the school music programs.
00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:13.039
And um, I I look at school music programs from afar.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:16.799
So I'm gonna be a little naive in in what the facts that I know.
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:26.400
But from what I understand, Texas is is at least one of the few places in the country that has uh a very supported music education system.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:48.319
And um I think with the competition uh that we put emphasis that we do tend to put on it in Texas, although it can be negative in a lot of ways, um, I think it's allowed so many programs to flourish from out in the middle of nowhere to in inside the big cities and and everywhere in between, whether it's size or social economic background.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.559
Uh and I don't know that that's happening and across the nation.
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:54.960
All right, Steven.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:56.319
Yeah.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.559
So, first of all, there are great programs in lots of places.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.519
So um, you know, our wealthiest suburban bands that play at Midwest are phenomenal to behold.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:11.680
And they are some of the best supported bands financially in the country.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:16.480
And it may be that those specific programs used competition to get their resources.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:17.519
That may be the case.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:24.559
But there's actually really fantastic band programs in other states too, and other really good band directors and other really good music educators.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:31.759
And so I have some deep questions about exactly how we define those things and then the attribution.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.119
Like, is it because we go to competitions that we have good resources?
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.519
Is it because we're really exposed?
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:43.759
Like the we, you know, the other thing that's really unique about Texas is we play at all the football games and we have a big football culture.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:49.599
And I don't know how much the supportive band programs is a direct tag along to just how exposed they are into football.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.319
You know, every single town, you're gonna see that band every week.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:59.519
And so if it's not good, it reflects on the school differently than if uh, you know, you only need an eight-piece basketball band or something, right?
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:06.640
So I think there's lots of contributing factors, not the least of which we have a culture of uh, you know, really great teachers too.
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.759
And I don't think because they compete is why they're good.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.079
I I don't, I mean, like I think there's lots of reasons for that.
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:13.839
We have great colleges, you know.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:21.599
Um, what I would say is that winning trophies is going to work for some percentage of schools.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:33.119
And almost winning trophies is going to work for some percentage of schools, but it's on the back of a lot of programs that are seen as useless and are never going to be supported because if they don't lose, then the winning doesn't mean anything.
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:50.240
And so, you know, I've been fortunate enough to work with schools where, you know, they don't have consistent feeders, they don't have realistic budgets, you know, uh, like 5A inner city schools that have a smaller budget than I had in rural Texas, you know, like that's a very real thing.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:58.400
And these competition structures are not doing anything good for them, but those structures require them in order to have other people labeled as winners, right?
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:05.839
And so to whatever extent people use these things to advocate for resources, that may be one way to get resources.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.039
But I would argue there's a lot of other ways to get resources.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.119
I think the band programs need to sound good.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:12.960
I think that really matters, you know?
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:19.279
Um, whether or not they sound better than somebody else with different resources and a different group of kids, I don't think that matters as much.
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:28.160
But what really matters is showing up at the nursing home, showing up at civic events, making sure that your community is deeply integrated in what's happening with the band program.
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:34.079
And that's a really powerful and sustainable way that every single school can advocate for resources.
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:35.680
So that would be my argument.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:36.880
There's good programs everywhere.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:43.920
I wouldn't deny that our competitive structure in Texas has been used by many programs to advocate for more resources.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.960
I just think that's it's kind of an interesting system, isn't it?
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:56.240
And maybe, maybe there are other ways that we could do that that don't require programs to lose in order for our program to advocate for resources.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.640
Yeah, and I would I would say that I think uh, I mean, you're absolutely right.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:09.920
There's there's many ways to advocate for your program and many ways to uh um grow a program, whether musically numbers-wise, budget-wise, anything.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.920
Um, and that's one of the reasons why I think UIL is such a great system.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:21.359
Um, it not without its flaws, of course, but you have the option um of number one, just doing UIL, period.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:32.160
Um, obviously you're gonna have the the stressors of uh admin who are gonna require it, but I think that's actually uh used as a scapegoat from a lot of different people.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.599
Um at least I've worked in you know about five different school districts.
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:49.359
And um I think if I came to any of my administrators and explained why I didn't want to do UIL that year and gave them a thought-out student-centered um process of why, um, it'd be pretty easy to not do it.
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:57.599
Um I I probably am the minority because I I hear that sound bite uh from the other side, not from Steven, but from other people so often.
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:13.440
But uh I would also say that the UIL system set up with the rating system as opposed to you know, outside of marching band, uh, a placement system um allows for um you to see as a student and as a director your progress.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:19.200
Um, my first year as a teacher, I made a three in sight reading and I made a two on stage.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.720
And my next year, I made a three on stage and a three in sight reading, and I did not improve that year.
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:30.480
And so I was able to get you know feedback on what I was doing as a teacher.
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:41.279
I was able to get feedback from my students on how they're playing, and I was able to use that as a as a big time tool to um just become a better teacher.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:53.759
And uh, and throughout the system of UIL, um, I appreciate that you know you can do a lot of different things and it's set up for a way for you to use it as a tool and not necessarily use it as just the competitive force of it.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:59.839
Um, marching band is obviously unique uh in that aspect, and and that's probably the one that gets abused the most.
00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:07.440
And I will say abuse uh when it comes to competition and what we're talking about, that toxic competitive culture.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:13.039
Uh, but I just I put a lot of faith in behind our UIL system and the way we're able to use that.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:23.200
Um, the other thing I I do want to acknowledge is um that writing system in itself, uh a lot of times it's the the ones and the everybody else's.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:29.440
Um and that's I think a culture that our band directors have created, that us as educators have created.
00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:33.680
Um, I don't see that as a culture that UIL has necessarily created.
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.480
Um, I don't know their intent behind everything.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:41.920
Um, but I know you can go to state uh solo and ensemble and you get a medal for getting a two.
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.119
And and and still it's seen as bad, you know.
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:49.119
And so it but never mind you're at state and in and appreciating that.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:58.799
Uh, but I feel like maybe us as uh educators have soiled that um that's the integrity of the system in that way.
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:01.279
All right.
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.759
Steven, you want to make a point and have uh Brian.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:04.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.119
I have I have a lot of thoughts about the UIL system.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.119
And again, as a as a participant for many years, as a student and a director.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.480
And, you know, there's a lot of things I like.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:16.400
Like, you know, the feedback.
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:17.839
I really like getting feedback.
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:18.880
I like getting my band out.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:25.119
And I especially like, although we don't encourage this in our state like they do in other states, um, seeing other groups perform.
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.640
And it's a big part of it.
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:31.200
Like a lot of states, they require that when you go to adjudication, you watch other groups perform.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:37.440
You know, um, I again, I don't think the thing that makes it good is that at the end of it, they stick a number on it.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.279
And I think maybe the numbers are the most problematic part of that system.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:49.359
Uh, you know, I know we're saying I don't know when I it when it got better, when it got worse, you know, getting that feedback, that kind of thing.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:52.559
But, you know, your band can get better and your ratings can get worse.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:55.519
That's a normal experience that lots of people have had.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:04.319
Um, and then I also, whenever I notice all the directors talking about this, the trophy goes in the band hall, but the directors are talking about their scores.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:11.200
You know, this is what I scored, this is what, you know, and in that regard, I think directors get a lot of feedback from these things, you know.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:16.240
But at least a quarter of the kids in your high school band graduated, and so they don't know how they're going to do better next year.
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:18.079
And this is the end of it for them, right?
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.920
So there's there's a lot of things about that that I really question.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:25.200
You know, putting the number on at the end, I think is the least helpful part.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:26.480
The feedback has been great.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:34.079
I also have been in competitions as a student, as a director, and as a judge, where almost never do I disagree with the feedback.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.640
Like sometimes it could have been stated better, but generally the feedback is right, okay.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:43.839
But then there have been lots of times I've disagreed with scores where I would have given a different score to that group.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:49.359
I would say I've never been to a contest where I watched multiple groups and there weren't some that I would have scored differently.
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.720
And you know that's true because the judge's scores are not consistent.
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:53.200
Okay.
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:58.720
So again, if we taught, think about the UIL system and all the things we think are wonderful.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:02.400
What of the good parts come primarily from that score?
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:03.759
And what of the bad parts?
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:11.200
And I would say 90% of the bad parts come from the ratings and the rankings, and you know, 10% of the good parts.
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.519
And then meanwhile, 90% of the good stuff comes from other things that are part of that structure.
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:27.759
So not against a structure, not against clinicians, not against seeing other groups, not against getting feedback, not against uh one of those clinicians, you know, grab you on the shoulder afterwards and being like, dude, you got to start listening for tuning because they're crashing into burning.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:35.920
And I think my desire to make my music more authentic, to help my students learn and grow is enough to motivate me to take that feedback.
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:46.160
I don't need the threat of the score, which I think tends to, regardless of how we want to sugarcoat it, amount to public praise or public embarrassment for our students and for ourselves.
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:49.920
And again, I know you don't have to think about it that way, but I think you kind of do.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:53.119
You know, we said it's a five-rating system, it's a one and everything else.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:58.000
I don't think most people that care at all about the ratings are ever going to be happy with anything less than a one.
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.119
And I think that's again, how the that just is the nature of it.
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:03.920
It's like the design of its system itself makes these things.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:09.039
And when you don't see that, it's because uh we've managed to overcome that disincentive.
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:15.839
Like we've managed to be so, and then by the point you get to there, you've got to ask yourself, well, what were those ratings actually for?
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:17.680
That'd be my my counterpoint there.
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.119
Oh, by the way, one other thing.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:26.079
Uh, speaking of a national standpoint, we are one of like one or two states that publicly archive and publish everybody's UIL rankings.
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:30.079
And I basically have two things I would change about the UIL system that I think are realistic.
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:31.039
So this is my big pitch.
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:31.759
This is what I would do.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:34.079
Number one, I would allow people to go for comment only.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:43.200
Okay, leave the ratings for everyone that wants them, but allow people to participate in the system and get that 90% of the good stuff, you know, without having to do the ratings.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:44.319
I think that'd be very powerful.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.519
The second thing is I would stop publishing and archiving the scores.
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.400
It is not uncommon in Texas to apply for a position.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:59.279
And we do two things in Texas, not every school, but a lot of schools, where if you don't have UIL history, you could be the best band director that ever lived, but you taught in a different state.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.720
A lot of schools, that's the same as having zero band experience.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:12.000
Uh, additionally, um, a lot of places before you ever are called in for an interview, they're going to look up your UIL history, and you may not get that interview if it's not what they want to see.
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:21.119
Which, why in that case, would any band director in Texas who cares about their career ever go somewhere where it's challenging to get those if they care about that system?
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.559
So that would be my again, my counter-argument to those things.
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:26.160
I hope that's not coming across rough.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.839
Again, I don't think anyone meant the way that it works exactly.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:36.480
But I think you it whether or not you see it in your individual program, I think we see it across the state to at least some reasonable extent.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.519
Yeah, that was definitely I'm sorry.
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:42.079
It's that was definitely one question I was going to get your thoughts from.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.839
So I'm I'm glad you brought that up, Stephen.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:58.960
But kind of going to Brian, um, one thought that goes through my head is competition, whether I agree with it or disagree with it, it's part of the process of me uh getting more money, better jobs.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:11.039
Um, my job right now is a clinician, and I think very few directors hire me to come into their school on the idea of they just want better music education for their children.
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:12.239
I hate to say that.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:18.719
It's toxic in that way, but it's like, what can my clone do to increase my scores?
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.280
You know, and then they get other clinicians as well.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:23.920
So Steven knows really good thoughts on that.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.840
I I've I I'm real curious about the idea.
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:30.800
That's interesting that other states don't publish things because I just kind of grew up with that, you know.
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:32.320
So that's a very interesting point.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:37.440
Ryan, what are your thoughts on that as far as careers, UIL producement, competition jobs?
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:48.320
I think uh man, publishing the scores, uh uh that that would definitely like you you said that, and I was like, well, man, my my ego, I want I want to see what everyone else is doing.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:50.559
And and that is a comparative thing.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:52.719
So uh yeah, kudos to that.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:57.599
And I I would love to see UIL offer a comments only um option.
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:03.519
Um, I don't think many would take it, um, but there are definitely some who would and would benefit greatly from it.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:21.039
Um, would you say it's reasonable that most people's uh excuse me, most band directors' ears and um way to critique themselves and the and their band change from like your first year to your tenth year.
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.960
Is that a reasonable thing to say?
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:24.480
I would say so.
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:24.719
Yeah.
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:25.360
Okay.
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:31.039
So one of the things that happened for me that were education again used as a tool.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:36.800
This I I could have figured this out many other ways, but uh sorry, not education, competition.
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:39.519
Competition was used as a tool for me.
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:46.719
Was um, I went to a marching contest very early on in my career, and I thought we were really good.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.119
And I had clinicians come in and tell me we were really good.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:55.119
And I went to that contest and I got a three.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:59.119
And, you know, to some bait, some people, three would be devastating.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.079
Two is like, ugh, but three is, you know, to some.
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:06.239
And then of course, like you like you said, the other two ratings, whether they're used or not.
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:20.800
Um, but I obviously was stunned by that, but I really took getting that and trying to understand why we received that to better myself as a teacher and take those comments for what they were.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:25.920
Whereas I don't know if I would have took those comments as seriously if I wasn't given a rating.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:30.400
And maybe that's a flaw in in my way of thinking, and I I can certainly accept that.
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:41.440
Um, but throughout my career, I've been able to get to the point where I now can look back on that and I say, how did I ever think that that was good?
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:44.320
And I mean good because it doesn't sound good.
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.360
You said bands need to sound good, it just didn't sound good.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:52.239
And uh and and and I thought in the moment that we sounded phenomenal.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:37:14.880
And uh and I can look back now because I've been able to hone in my skills from the the feedback and the ratings and to understand where I've definitely gotten feedback before that um how many of us have seen uh a sheet that was nothing but praise and get a two, or fill up a sheet full of criticisms and get a one.
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:22.559
And so they're not we they definitely are there's a human and artistic element to judging as just like there is music.
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:31.519
But I think that I took those um comments much more seriously and was able to really investigate why I'm not getting the results that I want.
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:36.639
And that really became helped me become a better teacher, as well as help my students become better students.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.360
Again, not the only way to do it, certainly not.
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:45.119
Um, music existed long before competition, long before UIL uh ever was a thing.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:48.320
Uh and so that that's I know shocking, right?
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:56.079
Uh and and you know, I John Phillips Sousa wasn't going around trying to get a one, you know, he just wanted his band to sound really, really good.
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:57.760
And and he made that happen.
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:09.599
And so um, again, that the inherent argument is not for me to disagree, but to to see that competition is just uh I really view it as something that helps on so many different levels.
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:25.280
And um, if we are not looking at education uh and competition objectively when it comes to the toxic uh and and negative views on that and addressing that, then I think that we're failing as educators, not necessarily the competitive system.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:27.280
Yeah, thank you.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:27.840
Thank you.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.119
And Stephen, can you give us uh kind of your ideas?
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:32.639
Because we've talked a lot on the phone.
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.960
We we have our uh we have our own podcast just between Stephen and I.
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:41.760
We call each other and uh vent and talk about things.
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:46.239
But he has a uh a really interesting approach to how to do music in school.
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:54.880
So I'm gonna give you a chance right now to kind of pitch kind of your your ideas with modern music, etc., with a modern band approach.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.639
So go for it, my friend.
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:02.239
Yeah, well, let me let me keep this a little narrower than our conversations.
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:02.719
Okay.
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:13.440
Uh, but the the main things that I would say is that I feel like and and again, I want I want to be really specific about what competition is.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:21.519
Everything we've talked about today, the only aspects that were competition were doing the thing and then ending with a numeric ranking or rating.
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:24.159
None of the rest of it was competition, right?
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:27.760
Getting the feedback, everything else, none of that was competition.
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.840
We use competition, I think, as a shortcut.
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:35.280
And this is not just competition, it's all extrinsic motivation.
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:46.639
You know, it's a shortcut to get from what we perceive to be the basic state of all the students, that they would literally do nothing, to getting them to do this thing that we want them to do.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:58.800
Um, and I think that's where the problem is, is that and and there's a mix of this, and this doesn't have to not exist within places where you're doing competitions, but I think competitions do get in the way.
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:09.280
And um, that is what I want is for the student to want the thing, and that's where they do it, not because um I've managed to use my power to make them do it, right?
00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:27.519
Um so again, there is a huge difference between someone who picks up a clarinet like me as a kid and loves the way it sounds and listens to all their favorite clarinet players and really wants to be able to reproduce that, and someone who's trying to win a contest or get a grade.
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:29.760
Those motivations are profoundly different.
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:35.679
It's the reason that I still pick up my clarinet every single week in practice, and I still listen to a lot of those people.
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.920
Um, it is harder to make people do that.
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:49.440
You have to like do a lot of work to make that inviting where you want to come into it, saying, Hey, if you guys work really hard, we get to do this really cool trip and everyone's gonna celebrate.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:56.159
That's really easy compared to, you know, the actual act of you know helping people fall in love with making music.
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.480
That being said, we're so lucky that it's music and not so many other things.
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:06.400
You know, it is completely normal to walk up to someone who is uh an all-state musician in Texas.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.199
So maybe say the best trombone player in the state of Texas, 5A6A.
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:13.599
And if you were to be like, oh my God, this is amazing.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:14.559
How long have you been playing?
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:15.519
They'd say seven years.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:16.800
I go, wow, that's amazing.
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:18.480
Who's your favorite trombone player?
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:21.920
And nine out of 10 times, they're gonna look at you like you're crazy.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.800
Like they literally cannot name a single trombone player.
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.440
And then you go, hey, would what's your favorite song?
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:29.679
Could you just play me a cool song on the trombone?
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.760
They're like, no, I don't know any songs.
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:33.760
I can play my part from the marching show.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:37.519
I can play the audition music, but I can't just play songs that I like.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:47.440
The what we get to through these competition systems is so far removed from the ways that people actually engage with music outside of schools that I think we lose a lot.
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:48.719
Uh I think we lose a lot.
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:52.639
And so it's a challenge if you step outside of extrinsic motivation.
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:55.599
It requires a lot of changes to the way that you operate.
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:58.480
Um, I will say, you know, some things we said earlier.
00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:01.199
I don't, I think a lot of humans don't enjoy competition.
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:06.000
There's a lot of culturals that are not nearly as competitive as we are in the United States.
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:10.079
Like we really we look at competition as being this really wonderful thing.
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:22.800
But I mean, pretty much every major religion speaks out against being competitive, you know, like like literally, I would not argue that humans at base enjoy competition universally.
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.719
I don't think that's a universal value.
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:30.400
Um, I think, especially too, even when we're talking about things like building character, I don't know about you.
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:37.599
I've had so much disappointment in my life and failure that was not set up in some type of competition, just like living life and trying to do things.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:42.880
I don't feel like anyone needed to create extra unnecessary failure for me in order to develop those skills.
00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:44.639
I was encountering plenty natural.
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:47.199
Maybe somebody else is way more successful than me.
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:51.119
So my argument is that we should be playing these instruments because we love making music.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.719
We should make music because it's fun to make music sound better, because it's more expressive.
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:03.679
But that is a completely different art than extrinsic motivation, which, you know, is grades, competitions, all these things I find to be really challenging compared to deeper things.
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:09.920
If you say, okay, instead of doing competitions, we're gonna do nothing, probably competitions are better than that.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:20.880
But if you say instead of doing competitions, we're gonna continue to perform for feedback, but maybe now we're gonna go play at the nursing home and we're gonna take and we're gonna do some composition and improvisation as a part of our class.
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:25.119
And you want this next year, the kids are gonna help design the marching show because we can take risk.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:28.880
Because if we, you know, so long as it's authentic to the kids and the crowd loves it.
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:36.000
Oh, can you imagine a world where the marching band was about entertaining the crowd at football games and we learned a new show every couple of weeks?
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:38.639
That would roll back time, like 40 or 50 years.
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:45.519
So that's what I'm saying is you know, you don't have to switch to teaching modern band or something else to think about this all differently.
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:47.679
I think you you were exactly right.
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:51.360
We've been making this argument as a profession for at least 100 years.
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:56.400
It seems like a lot of these structures developed between the 1920s and the 1940s, like all in there.
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.760
And, you know, from what I understand, the rating system was a direct result to all the problems.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.360
Problems with ranking systems.
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:04.880
But then I think still we have those inherent same type of challenges.
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:06.320
So it takes a lot of thought.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:14.559
But I would say if basically the ranking UIL system is 100 years old, and I think about my grandpa, he'd be 115, he had polio as a kid.
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:22.559
If we could solve polios, polio, we could probably improve the way that we adjudicate and help directors and advocate for resources and all of these things.
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:26.960
I can't believe that the system we came up with 100 years ago is the best way to do it still.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:30.559
I don't know if that was a good answer, Mike, but that's those are the answer.
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:31.599
That's a good answer.
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:33.679
So can I can I jump in on that?
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:35.039
Yes, you go for it, Brian.
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:39.039
So let me ask you to put this back on a different avenue.
00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:43.360
Um I think we we can be in it for the love of the game.
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:44.960
You know, we can we can do it.
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:46.320
And kids have a blast.
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:50.719
Like uh uh like I said earlier, we talked to the kids about all the memories they're gonna remember.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:52.320
They're not gonna really remember.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:45:01.440
They might remember winning a big competition, but they're gonna remember that bus ride and that conversation that they had with that kid, they're gonna remember how they felt after a performance on a Friday night.
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:05.039
Um, they're gonna remember that really, really good concert that they played.
00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:11.039
Uh, at least I do, and uh, and I think a lot of people uh echo that in in the circles that I'm around.
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:16.639
Um, but what about you know, the the system we have is what we have.
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:25.280
And um if we look at, for lack of a better term, Bubba, Bubba administrator, and um, and they're very data driven.
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:35.360
And music in itself is not so much data, at least not that we can portray, I think, very coherently uh to someone who's a numbers person.
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:38.400
Uh, and we're trying to get support for our programs.
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:43.760
And if we were just to get rid of it, what about all the support that would miss out on?
00:45:43.840 --> 00:46:12.320
And then furthermore, never mind support, what about all the kids that would no longer participate because of either that lack of support or because we weren't able to fully um uh fund or have enough teachers or support having a large program and where it's really just going to be limited uh into what we have uh equipment-wise and and um and support-wise, or even if we can get a bus to go to a game or anything like that.
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:15.599
Um what's your solution to that?
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:18.880
And I I I promise I'm not challenging an adversario way.
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:29.119
I really do want to know what would your solution be to the 2026 way of doing things that we would need such a paradigm shift uh to get away from competition.
00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:37.760
Well, I want to start again by saying there's a lot of programs right now that are not getting resources due to their contest results.
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:45.199
Like there are a lot of people that are damaged right now, that literally, you know, um their programs are not supported.
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:46.960
And it wasn't because they weren't doing well.
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:49.360
A lot of it's because of the current political climate.
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:53.760
I think we're all in trouble for resources, if I'm gonna be completely honest, over the next 10 or 15 years.
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:55.599
I'm very, very concerned about it.
00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:10.719
I was just in Miami and they were talking about how um they'd done such a movement to privatize schools and they'd gotten rid of a lot of the middle schools and replaced them with academies, and the academies didn't have um, you know, any uh athletics or fine arts, right?
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:14.400
Um, and I'm seeing the same thing happen here in San Antonio.
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:22.400
They're shutting down schools, they're replacing them with, you know, these uh uh non-district charters that are taking over public facilities and doing this.
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.719
So I'm really concerned about all of that.
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:28.320
Um, and it has it has not saved us that we're all going to contest.
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:30.960
Like we are seeing that exact thing happening right now.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:38.400
You know, how do you argue with an administrator who doesn't believe that teaching music is valuable and doesn't want to give you enough resources?
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:46.880
Like that's the question we're all asking because for some of them saying, well, if we get more, we might win is also not a great way to advocate for those things, you know?
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:54.239
Um, could we do feedback in a way where it's directed mainly to the administrators and to the teachers?
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:54.719
Maybe.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:59.519
I thought, you know, one of the problems with our adjudication system is it's not very well contexted.
00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:06.400
Like, yeah, you compete based on division, but you don't compete based on resources or the socioeconomic status.
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:13.599
Like it's almost impossible for me to give a rating if I don't actually know where they started and what they're dealing with and what those things are.
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:23.199
Like a first division for a band that meets five days a week versus a first division for a band that makes meets two days a week, I think are a different standard, but that's not on our rubrics.
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:24.239
We don't know what that is.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:26.320
So, you know, this has been challenging.
00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:34.000
I don't think there's a better answer to making people understand how much it matters than to go and matter really hard within your community.
00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:39.119
Like I think when it comes to the deeper, longer term, how do we keep this thing going for the next 50 years?
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:40.719
I don't think contest is going to save us.
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:47.760
I think if anything, the trend we've seen, especially with marching band over the last 40 years, is going to hasten the end of large ensemble programs.
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:49.760
Like I'm actually really concerned about that.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:49:02.559
So we have to admit that we are at an extreme when lots of schools go to, you know, two or three dozen contests a year when you consider winterline and winter guard and pre-UIL and all region, and you know, that's that's huge.
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:15.280
That's, you know, so I I guess my question is if an administrator only values winning a contest, it's going to be hard to convince them that anything that really matters matters because they don't get it, you know.
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:31.760
But I've had a lot of administrators, I'm like with you, where if I can show them how this is student-centered, and again, you don't replace going to contest with doing nothing, you know, like uh, but it requires real advocacy, not just here's how we win or here's how we make the school look good.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:33.440
Like it's just, it's, it's, it's harder.
00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:34.719
I'll I'll agree that it's harder.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:36.000
I don't think it's impossible though.
00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:46.559
I think there's really good programs, you know, across the world that don't do competitions or incredibly minimize it where it's one day of the year and still have reasonable support for their their programs.
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:48.480
So anyway, don't know that it's good.
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:49.840
That's why I keep setting timers for myself.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:50.719
No, it's great.
00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:51.199
It's great.
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:51.760
I love it.
00:49:51.920 --> 00:50:03.360
And uh do you think that uh let's use marching band uh for example, because I can go look up so-and-so's marching band from 2014 a lot easier than I can their their spring concert.
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:12.239
Um so I'm just looking at, you know, I was looking at our own programs in our own area, like, oh, you know, how how how are these guys back in the day, you know?
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:17.760
And and we always hear, and and uh so if I'm offending anybody, you know, I get that comment back in my day.
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:23.440
There was only one all-state band, but I'm like, have you heard the all-state bands these year, you know, this year?
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:26.320
Like they're incredible all the way down to the smallest one.
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.719
And uh, and all the cool things we're doing.
00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:35.199
Um, obviously, programs that I've been a part of have have grown and been successful, and that's not beating my own chest.
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:36.880
It's just that's my first hand knowledge.
00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:42.079
But I see a lot of programs that are bigger, that are better, well, you know, better quality.
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:47.679
Uh their shows are are they they're sounding much better, they're playing more difficult music.
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:49.679
They, you know, they've grown.
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:58.239
Um, and I think that, you know, I can't tell you for sure whether uh competition was a part of that, but I certainly think it has an influence.
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:00.079
It was definitely used as a tool.
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:04.559
And you and seeing these programs grow, that just means more kids are experiencing it.
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:10.480
And all these things that we're doing now with the the extra stuff, yes, we can definitely go too far.
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:24.400
Uh we don't do indoor drumline because I think my my staff would riot and probably our kids too, but some people use that as a really awesome tool to you know just expand their program and and involve more kids.
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:28.159
And um, I I really think competition has been a big part of that.
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.400
And I again, I don't know these programs personally.
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:31.840
I can't tell you for sure.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:38.880
Um, but I I I think just even 10 years ago, I know at the foray level that we're at, the the game has changed.
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:48.480
Uh, the quality, the musicianship, the the size of the programs has all seems to be better, again, my opinion, but that's that's what I tend to see.
00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:54.239
I I would think that's gonna depend very much on the school, you know.
00:51:54.559 --> 00:52:13.280
Um, and and also I would say the other thing that I think about a lot is, you know, if participating in band requires, you know, eight hours of work outside of school and you know, 25 or 30 weekends, you know, that's not how people make music outside of school.
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:18.480
Like nobody puts that much time into a music hobby, maybe into a music career, maybe into mute majoring in music.
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:28.800
But like, think about how, you know, when marching band was we rehearse during the day, you know, we've got an outside of school jazz band and we play the football games and that's it.
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:31.920
That was accessible to a lot more students, though.
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:33.039
You you see what I'm saying?
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:36.159
So I I mean, I it's gonna depend on where you're at.
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:38.639
There's places where program support is very strong.
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:43.039
You know, again, I'm seeing a very different thing here in inner city San Antonio.
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:47.440
You know, if you compare the programs to 40 or 50 years ago, a lot of them are a lot smaller.
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:49.840
So that's it's it's gonna depend on where you are.
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:53.280
And the competition system, I think, for a lot of these programs is not helping them.
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:53.599
Sure.
00:52:53.760 --> 00:53:05.920
You know, and there's really good directors doing really great work, but when all your kids are beginners in ninth grade and then out in the suburban district, they've got a very clear feeder system with consistent pedagogy from kindergarten through 12.
00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:08.400
Like it's just a completely different thing, you know.
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:17.360
So so would you say that the competition system is not helping them, or the competition system inherently caused it?
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:19.840
Oh, that's a great question.
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:26.320
I would say that it's holding them back, you know, because once again, it's a big career risk to take on one of these schools.
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:27.280
I mean I agree.
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:29.840
But uh, sorry Oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:30.800
What was the same cost?
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:31.519
I know.
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:32.719
Sorry, the the delay.
00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:34.800
No, you're gonna uh let me jump in real quick.
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:41.360
Uh um, I know several San Antonio uh band directors, and they're incredible in inner city San Antonio.
00:53:41.519 --> 00:53:44.000
Uh so I think that they do have good teachers.
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:46.880
Is that does that make it a more desirable location?
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:47.440
Definitely.
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:50.400
Like I I totally get that and agree with that point.
00:53:50.559 --> 00:54:00.320
Um, but I think that there's uh inherent problems in inner city schools and our education system more than a competition.
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:02.000
Competition is not helping them.
00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:02.960
I could agree with that.
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:05.039
I mean, I that's it's obviously not.
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:10.239
And um, but the I don't know that competition was the cause of that.
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.239
And I don't think that's what you're saying either, but that's that's was my question.
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:18.960
Yeah, well, I and again, I want to get all the way down to what competition is.
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:20.559
It's only the rating and the ranking.
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:23.360
Have you done musical events where you see lots of groups perform?
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:25.280
I can think of at least one that I know you did.
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:28.960
Uh, but have you gone where where people perform and they don't compete?
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:29.519
Yes.
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:30.000
Oh, yeah.
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:30.880
I'm going next week.
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:36.880
Do the kids walk away excited about what they're seeing and do they have a positive experience generally?
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:38.159
Um, I think so.
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:45.599
Um, I will say, uh in preparing for that, um, my kids are not as focused.
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:51.199
Um and I I don't know it will take full ownership if that's a reflection on me as a teacher.
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:55.920
Um, but I feel like they're not there, there's just a little bit of shine that's lost on that.
00:54:56.079 --> 00:55:01.199
And uh uh, but you know, they're also really want to do well and they want to perform.
00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:06.800
And so I know that as we get closer to it, you know, we're gonna we're gonna continue to polish it and they're gonna continue to work.
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:13.760
But there's just a little there's a little bit of edge taken off of it, I think, um, in in the in the kids' minds and in just the way they're working.
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:19.039
Uh, but we're still gonna have a great experience because I know we're gonna play well and I know that they're gonna feel proud of what they're doing.
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.320
So yeah, I mean, uh again, it's a tool.
00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:28.719
How how much of that do you think is the subtle influence over time that, oh, this isn't a competition, it doesn't count?
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:35.119
Like, because we we like there's an implicit suggestion of that that comes with there being competitions, right?
00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:39.599
Like the structure of a competition says this day, this performance is more important than all the others.
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:51.119
Whether you say that aloud or just indicate it, you know, through preparation or whatever else, or through the fact there's an award attached, it does elevate that above the other things that you're doing by the design.
00:55:51.280 --> 00:56:02.320
Do you think that, you know, by extension means that the reasons for making music, like, oh, well, we're just doing this because making music is awesome, that that doesn't ring as being as valuable if we do that?
00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:10.880
Because that that that's the that's the effect in the in the research, is that when you introduce extrinsic motivation, you actually minimize the intrinsic motivations for doing it.
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:13.199
I feel like you one can lead to the other.
00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:20.480
Um, I think we can use the intrinsic motivation because it does speak to a lot of different students, uh, at least in my opinion.
00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:27.920
And then we can use that to I, you know, I go to us and I I hate being fair, I hate playing graduation.
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.840
I'm not a ceremonial person.
00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:32.559
Uh, I do not enjoy graduation most of the time.
00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:39.599
I'm sad to see these kids leaving, and I I don't want to have to do a job when I want to celebrate, you know, these students.
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:57.039
Uh, but that being said, one of the things we talk to our kids about is not only about playing the very best that you can play, whether we're playing 20 minutes of pomp and circumstance, or we're playing some special music, or we're playing school song, um, we should always perform our best because that's that's what we teach here.
00:56:57.199 --> 00:57:00.079
That's, you know, you should always try your best at everything you do.
00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:03.760
You can go into lots of different discussions on reputation and whatnot.
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:08.320
But then also, this is one of the biggest audiences you're ever going to play for.
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:11.519
And this is the people that love you, that support you.
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:22.320
We're celebrating people who have been a part of this program, uh, been a part of our school, been a part of our community, you know, and so we put a lot of emphasis on why performing well is important.
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:26.079
And that rarely has to do with anything with competition.
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:29.119
Um, and I recently met with my new drum majors for next year.
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:34.880
And the first thing we talked about was well, our goals for next year, what what do we see us?
00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:35.920
How do we grow?
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:40.559
How do we become, as the way I put it, undeniable, not just better, but undeniable.
00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:45.920
Like everybody can see us perform and they see the joy and they see the music that we're making.
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:49.199
And one of the drum majors go, Well, I really want a medal at state.
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:50.079
And I said, That's great.
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:51.760
I'm glad that you want a meddle at state.
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:53.199
I want that for you.
00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:56.000
But let's think about what if we don't meddle at state?
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:57.679
How is next year going to be awesome?
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:08.159
And, you know, so I think we can, if we would put a tamper on the toxicity of it and use it more as a tool, which uh I know is what I always strive to do.
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:14.480
And I'm sure you'd you you would agree with that to at least some extent, that competition can be useful to a lot of different people.
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:17.840
Um, I think we just have different philosophies on what we're saying.
00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:21.199
Um, but tell me if I'm I'm incorrect in that.
00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:26.880
Oh, I well, that's why I wanted to open my argument with that competitions have benefits.
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:29.679
You know, that like there's there's a reason that we do them.
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:32.800
Um, I just think there's more authentic ways to get all those benefits.
00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:48.320
So again, you know, a kid who wants to win state marching contest is going to operate very differently than someone who, you know, really likes playing their instrument and thinks that the marching band environment, you know, being at the games is so fun and their mom was in it, so they want to do it too.
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:50.239
And that's their primary motivation.
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.360
That's such a better motivation than state marching contest.
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:59.119
Because let's let's be honest, you know, one one band per classification is going to win state marching contests.
00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:02.639
We created a system where you get second place at state marching contests.
00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:08.079
Let's say your band never even got a first division, and the next year you get second place at state marching contest.
00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:12.800
The newspaper at home is going to say band falls short at state marching contest.
00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:16.320
Like, you know, um I'm actually I don't agree with that.
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:18.079
I I don't think that would happen.
00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:32.719
I mean, that's a drastic example, of course, but I I I don't think that most people would say band falls short, or most newspapers or uh or most kids would not feel an immense amount of pride for that kind of accomplishment.
00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:35.199
And uh again, that is an extreme example.
00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:38.239
There you could make it a lot closer, make it much more difficult to defend.
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:39.280
Uh, and I appreciate that.
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:43.920
But uh, you know, I'll throw out kind of that example or circumstance.
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:53.039
Um, I saw a band that was a perennial uh gold medalist, and then one year they came in third place and the kids were crying in the parking lot.
00:59:53.199 --> 01:00:03.679
So if you see it in the opposite direction, then yeah, sometimes there is a little bit of toxicity in there, even though it was a really great program, because the kids put so much into it, you know.
01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:11.840
So I don't know if it's toxic or it's just they're on that emotional is that necessarily is that necessarily a bad thing though, to be Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
01:00:11.920 --> 01:00:14.719
Is it is it's so upset about it?
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:22.719
You know, you're almost saying like it's I I don't know this that that's what's so cool listening to you guys discuss this because it it is a cool debate.
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:31.119
Well, it it's one of those things where um you know again, that all that's artificial.
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:33.679
Like uh you know what everybody says about contests?
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.000
They go, the results don't matter, right?
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:38.719
Like that's how they try to push against the toxicity.
01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:42.159
And I would say that it you can't both say that and do it.
01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:44.320
Like you can't do it and not care about the results.
01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:47.360
Like again, it is there by design, you know.
01:00:47.519 --> 01:01:02.239
And I mean, do you remember the phenomenon with every other year state marching contest where there'd always be a drop in the senior class because kids couldn't go and that means they didn't like being in the band very much because it wasn't worth doing if there wasn't a contest to go to.
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:05.280
That to me is a crisis of meaning, you know?
01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:10.239
And I think there is an extent of that in every program, and it can be way worse.
01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:22.000
Like you, you can overemphasize, you can underemphasize, but I think as long as you participate in those structures, there is this implicit message in the design of how it works that what matters is us being better than other people.
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:26.320
And that's a big distraction from having this authentic meaning to the music making.
01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:27.679
And I've seen kids do both.
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:29.280
You know, Mike talked about the other stuff.
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:35.840
I the last gig I did, and this isn't a perfect parallel because it's not, it wasn't a marching band gig, but it was a music gig.
01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:39.119
We had no competitions, no required performances, no grades.
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:45.599
And I had to stay late every single day while every square inch of the band hall was full of people who wanted to play music together.
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:50.880
Like, you just I'm saying you don't need this stuff, and the costs are real, you know.
01:01:51.039 --> 01:01:53.039
Um, not that good stuff doesn't happen.
01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:55.519
I, when my kids were at state marching contest, they loved it.
01:01:55.599 --> 01:02:00.239
But as we were driving away, I saw this big banner a parent made it made that said, go win state.
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:06.800
And I knew from the second that I saw that banner that there was going to be some big disappointment because we didn't have the money to win state marching contest.
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:10.400
We uh we didn't have the type of show that would win state marching contest.
01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:15.519
And yeah, those kids worked hard and they put on a great show, but that was never going to be the case.
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:22.239
You know, even the worst football team, you can kind of hope that, you know, that one other team you're competing, everybody breaks their legs, you know.
01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:26.880
But with marching band, either you've got a show that's gonna do that and you've got the budget or you don't.
01:02:27.039 --> 01:02:32.320
So again, that's an extreme that we have in state marching contest, but I think you see similar things across it.
01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:37.199
So anyway, that's yeah, again, I don't know if that's helpful or uh no, I think it's great.
01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:39.039
And I think that's where we have some common ground.
01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:42.320
Uh I'm definitely more gross over placement, you know.
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:50.719
And I think if we if we allow that that kind of mindset to sneak in, you know, parents and community members are gonna want you to win, of course.
01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:56.719
But they're they're not but they're not gonna be devastated if you lose, you know, not parents and community members.
01:02:56.880 --> 01:03:00.960
Now, maybe that that perennial gold medalist, sure, but that's just a disappointment.
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:02.960
And you still learn something from that.
01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:06.559
I I think you know, the there's over it pretty quick, by the way.
01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:10.400
Right, exactly, because kids are resilient, probably faster than the adults did.
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:17.519
Yeah, you know, and uh, and so uh the goal is not to win at all costs, it's it's to pursue excellence with a purpose.
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:23.360
And uh, and so I I think there's there's just such a way that you can have your cake and eat it too.
01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:25.840
And it's something I strive for every day in our band hall.
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:31.280
And I really hope that a lot of directors are doing, and I believe they are because I see it in their programs.
01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:41.599
And um, and I think I can take the the small group that's overdoing it and set them aside, and it's a much smaller group than the ones who are not.
01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:52.880
And just some obviously, again, my opinion, but man, there's there's some really, really great programs out there that uh are doing a lot of awesome things, and winning, say, marching contests is not one of them.
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:56.239
Can I can I jump in just real quick?
01:03:56.800 --> 01:03:58.719
I've loved listening to this.
01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:14.000
I have one question, and I hope it's not I hope it's not a powder kick, but I've talked to Mike before about one of his groups that they didn't accomplish necessarily what they set out to do, they got upset in the moment, and then they were like, okay, where's the pizza?
01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:14.800
Yeah.
01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:23.760
And the memory was uh hanging out with their friends and doing stuff after the competition as much as it was uh you know going to the competition.
01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:44.639
Uh having said that, if we can agree, and I've heard Steven say this before, I've adopted it as something I like to say, if the student is the product, if the end goal for all of us as educators, if the student is the product, how much do you think competition is more about the director or about the educator?
01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:54.800
How much is the competition become so we can talk to our peers as opposed to if the kids get over it that fast?
01:04:55.760 --> 01:05:05.840
I'm not advocating it for or against because I grew up in competition and I I'm one of those people that feels like you know, real life involves some competition, whether we call it that or not.
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:08.880
Um but do you understand my question?
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:10.719
And I'm not trying to step on any toes.
01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:36.079
Have we created a system that the competition is more to uh to and and I think I was so glad to hear you all talk about maybe that rubric, maybe some of this is set up so a person like me who comes out of college with a lot of education but no real ear for balance and blend and that stuff, we have things that we can point to to say this is how our group could get better.
01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:45.199
But I don't think that a lot of the kids go to see other kids and go, Yeah, we gotta one.
01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:50.000
Or, you know, they don't value themselves in that.
01:05:50.239 --> 01:05:54.719
Maybe that's not clear enough, but I think that educators sometimes do.
01:05:55.360 --> 01:05:59.280
And I I'd like to give our students and our fellow band directors a lot more credit.
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:09.039
Uh Because I don't think that it's a problem statewide and it's ingrained in every single bandhole throughout the state.
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:13.840
I think it's a it's in the much of the minority where we're going overly competitive.
01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:16.480
Um, again, using it as a tool.
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:18.239
Um, and is it fun to win?
01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:19.440
Of course it's fun to win.
01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:22.719
Uh, but cow, I've had some great seasons where we didn't win a thing.
01:06:22.880 --> 01:06:24.719
And just the kids had fun together.
01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:33.199
And uh, and I'm I tell the kids all the time, I'm not in the business of creating more band directors and really not even in the business of creating more musicians.
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:35.760
I want to create good people and good citizens.
01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:39.440
And um, and and I see that a lot in our kids.
01:06:39.519 --> 01:06:44.719
Uh, one of the things that I uh this has nothing to do with Steven's point because I know he'll agree with me.
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:52.079
Um, you know, I tell the kids, you know, you always have these people, kids these days just don't know how to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
01:06:52.159 --> 01:06:54.400
And I'm like, kids these days are incredible.
01:06:54.639 --> 01:07:02.800
You have no idea the knowledge, the wisdom, the the pure talent that they just ooze out of their pores.
01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:06.559
And our future is going to be bright because they're doing such incredible things.
01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:10.239
But because you keep watching the news, you think education is failing.
01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:16.239
Uh, and you know, it's it they're doing such awesome things, and and our band directors are doing such awesome things.
01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:18.719
So I just I just want to give them some credit on that.
01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:28.960
Um, we can we can poke fun at the people who take it too far, and and and that is detriment to them and their kids, but that you're gonna have that in any profession, I think, in any system.
01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:30.480
Um, so anyway.
01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:36.000
Yeah, I I uh I I like we agree on so many things.
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:40.000
And I've been in your band hall before, and all your kids are so happy, you know.
01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:45.119
Like uh I and and again, there's so many things about what we do, even in marching band.
01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:46.880
And when I was a kid, I I did marching band.
01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:48.079
I wasn't a marching band kid.
01:07:48.159 --> 01:07:49.280
That wasn't my thing, right?
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:53.280
Um, and as a director, I'm like, well, if we're doing it, we're gonna do it really well, you know?
01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:55.599
Uh like definitely that type of personality.
01:07:55.840 --> 01:08:05.760
But um, you know, there's a lot of things that appeal to a lot of kids about making music, about getting together, about going to football games, about playing cool songs, about doing neat marching shows.
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:09.360
There's a lot of things that appeal to a lot of people about those things.
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:25.520
And what I would say is what happened to me was the more I got into an understanding about, you know, just meaning and motivation and why we do things, the more I found extrinsic motivators, not just competitions, but anything to being something that I didn't really want to do anymore.
01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:36.640
And I would say that if you are a band director in Texas, it is way harder to be respected and to do what you're supposed to do if you believe that, than if you're all in on contest.
01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:42.960
So we have a system that doesn't really leave a lot of room for people to practice the point of view that I'm sharing.
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:54.880
And I think that is a systematic problem, which is again why I would advocate for our systems to allow people to get feedback, to get the support that they need without needing to have their groups rated and ranked.
01:08:55.039 --> 01:08:58.399
You know, um, they're outside of music education.
01:08:58.560 --> 01:09:03.119
If you talk about music being a competition, nobody understands what you're talking about.
01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:08.960
You know, yeah, there's like some concerto contests and things for classical musicians, but they're coming out of school music.
01:09:09.119 --> 01:09:13.359
You know, like that's just not what music is for outside of school, period.
01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:21.279
Like if your central motivation for doing music is competitions and you leave school, you're very likely not to make music anymore.
01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:22.079
And you can have both.
01:09:22.159 --> 01:09:24.880
You can like competitions and also really enjoy playing your instrument.
01:09:25.039 --> 01:09:27.760
I think a lot of us uh who are in the profession have done that.
01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:32.640
There's also a lot of kids that love music but hate that environment and they're not in our data.
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:40.399
They dropped out, you know, the first time they had to do a playing test or a chair test or when they had a bad result at all region and they never touched an instrument again.
01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:46.000
And if that was because they were put in a situation through competition, that doesn't reflect real life at all.
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:53.439
So my I guess my big conclusion is I know a lot of people do competitions and really value it and see benefits.
01:09:53.600 --> 01:09:59.279
Like I said, there are some, but I would argue that there's a lot of ways to make music without competitions.
01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:02.880
There's ways to do band, marching band, all these things without competition.
01:10:03.039 --> 01:10:07.520
And you can get pretty much all of those benefits in other types of ways.
01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:16.319
Um, and I would love to see that be a more systematically available possibility for programs that feel that same way.
01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:19.279
Yeah.
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:23.039
Hey, I was gonna ask for closing statements, but I think y'all just did it.
01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:25.199
Well, and that was awesome.
01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:30.640
If I'll throw in one more thing, um, and and not to not to draw back into a debate.
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:31.600
Uh no, no, you're good.
01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:31.920
You're good.
01:10:32.079 --> 01:10:34.159
I kind of had a pre-planned like closing momentum.
01:10:34.239 --> 01:10:37.119
Uh so anyway, wrap it wrapping up the conversation.
01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:41.840
If you practiced, and you know, I have to declare the finger because this is I definitely didn't practice.
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:42.479
I don't know.
01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:45.520
It's not a competition, though.
01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:53.199
You know, um, no, uh, so you know, for what, for what it's worth, um, I think it's a great conversation to have.
01:10:53.359 --> 01:10:55.119
And why why should we have it?
01:10:55.279 --> 01:11:01.199
Because ultimately it's about our students and about what we're offering not only our students, but what we're offering society.
01:11:01.279 --> 01:11:09.199
We're putting hundreds, if not thousands, of kids into the world um with a with a love or disdain for music uh or and everywhere in between.
01:11:09.359 --> 01:11:14.640
So I you know, I just feel like life is competitive and uh there's just so much that it can teach you.
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:16.159
And is it speak to everybody?
01:11:16.239 --> 01:11:17.359
No, it definitely doesn't.
01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:22.560
But when used intentionally and responsibly, uh, I feel like it's a very effective tool.
01:11:22.720 --> 01:11:24.479
And that's what it needs to be as a tool.
01:11:24.560 --> 01:11:27.680
It doesn't need to be the ultimate uh objective.
01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:31.439
Um, none is none of this to say is competition is perfect, of course.
01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:43.520
We've we've gone through that, but at its best, competition, of course, is not about trophies, but it's about striving for that excellence and seeing where that next step is, um, working on a common goal and discovering what you're capable of.
01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:51.600
And it just gives you that check mark, it gives you that data point, and uh, and people look up ratings because that's easy to do.
01:11:51.760 --> 01:12:03.760
And um, but I know I know tons of people to who don't get those ratings that somebody that's so-called successful, but they're very successful and they're also really respected.
01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:05.920
Is it harder for them to be seen in that light?
01:12:06.079 --> 01:12:06.479
Absolutely.
01:12:06.560 --> 01:12:09.840
Isn't it and is it harder for them to get the the better job?
01:12:10.079 --> 01:12:10.960
Absolutely.
01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:17.199
Um, but I know a bunch of people who love and respect them and who know that they're just doing such good work.
01:12:17.359 --> 01:12:31.279
Um, and so I I just want to give us a little bit more credit on that as a society that that that is definitely happening um in the walls of many, many band halls and in orchestra halls and choir halls throughout um not only our state, but throughout the country, I'm sure.
01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:37.680
Um, so whether the question, sorry, the question isn't really whether competition belongs in music education.
01:12:37.920 --> 01:12:43.199
It's whether you're willing to use it uh in the way that benefits your own students, because that's what we're all about.
01:12:43.359 --> 01:12:50.479
Uh when we do that, I feel like the impact is is a huge net gain and positive for our students.
01:12:50.720 --> 01:12:54.800
Um, it doesn't take away from music education, it can help it to thrive.
01:12:54.960 --> 01:12:57.119
Of course, it has to be used responsibly.
01:12:57.520 --> 01:12:59.760
Steven, closing statement, sir.
01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:06.479
Yeah, I don't think that the world, society, and everything is inherently competitive.
01:13:06.640 --> 01:13:14.800
I would argue that in most situations, if I'm having a conversation at dinner and other people are trying to conversation better than me, that's unpleasant.
01:13:14.960 --> 01:13:20.000
If I'm working with someone and their goal is to one up me and do everything better than me, that's pretty unpleasant.
01:13:20.159 --> 01:13:32.239
You know, um, there are certain capitalistic goals between companies that might lead to competition, but I would not argue that that has made society as a whole a whole lot better, that the competitive element is what happens.
01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:40.479
You know, I think a lot of times we would have met a lot of goals we have as people, as society better had we been more willing to work together.
01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:45.199
So uh I again see this as being a big, a big thing, you know.
01:13:45.279 --> 01:13:48.880
Um, I don't think kids have to learn about competition through school music.
01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:53.039
I think, you know, they can they can learn about competition through life.
01:13:53.279 --> 01:14:01.439
But again, very seldomly as an adult musician, in fact, never outside of school has it been a competition a single time that I can think of.
01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:06.479
If I get on the bandstand with someone and we're jamming and it turns into a competition, it's bad music.
01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:10.720
Where, you know, my job oftentimes is to support and to uplift.
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:15.359
And I think there's so much value in music that we we don't need the other stuff.
01:14:15.439 --> 01:14:16.720
Like we just don't need it.
01:14:16.880 --> 01:14:21.600
Um, and so for me personally, that's the uh that's the way that I advocate.
01:14:21.680 --> 01:14:22.800
I think it's valuable.
01:14:22.960 --> 01:14:24.079
I think it's huge.
01:14:24.239 --> 01:14:31.680
You know, I think that if I have a goal and I care about it and I want excellence, that that's a good reason to work for it.
01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:35.600
And the fact that I might get a bad rating is a bad reason to work for excellence.
01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:36.880
And that's what I want for my kids.
01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:40.079
I want those lasting long term when the competition is over.
01:14:40.239 --> 01:14:42.000
The goal was to be good, just to be good.
01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:53.840
And I don't feel like, as a classroom teacher, that the perceived success of my students or my program should ever have been dependent on the perceived success or failure of any other school anywhere else.
01:14:54.079 --> 01:15:00.319
Um, and I agree that there are people that are doing amazing work and are never gonna get the ratings and rankings they deserve.
01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:04.399
And I think that's an indictment of how the system doesn't work for everybody.
01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:09.439
Um and also, you know, gosh, isn't life hard?
01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:15.600
You know, isn't it hard to go through all these things and have to figure out values and how to compensate?
01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:20.640
And I'm gonna be completely honest, in my marching band gig, I never got completely away from competition.
01:15:20.800 --> 01:15:22.880
Had I stuck it out at the same place, I might have.
01:15:23.039 --> 01:15:28.560
I had to move outside a marching band before I could convince myself to feel safe enough to completely let it go.
01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:30.800
And again, I think that I think that says something.
01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:38.960
If the idea, it's easier to, you know, see music education in Texas coming to an end than for us not to center it around competition.
01:15:39.119 --> 01:15:41.920
You know, it's been said before, and I think a lot of people feel that way.
01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:48.479
It's hard to imagine doing this just for education and nourishment and and growth and not needing those other carrots.
01:15:48.720 --> 01:15:52.000
But um, man, it's a fun topic to talk about.
01:15:52.079 --> 01:15:54.800
And a lot of people do it because again, we're we're kind of unique in Texas.
01:15:54.880 --> 01:16:00.880
We are at an extreme where even if you do competition just a little bit in Texas, you're doing it more than a lot of other places.
01:16:01.039 --> 01:16:04.880
Um, so it's good to good to talk about it here with my friends.
01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:05.840
Absolutely.
01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:14.319
And I tell you what, guys, it's uh, you know, it's so nice to hear such a professional conversation about something that could be a powder keg issue.
01:16:14.479 --> 01:16:26.720
And I found from uh seeing people from other parts of the nation that in a lot of times in Texas, we teach uh performance, which inherently becomes competition, uh, instead of teaching music.
01:16:28.800 --> 01:16:30.000
Think about that for a second.
01:16:30.239 --> 01:16:31.760
That's a different perspective on it.
01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:34.640
But you know, as in every debate, there's gonna be a winner.
01:16:35.119 --> 01:16:36.720
And I'm gonna declare the winner.
01:16:36.880 --> 01:16:37.760
The winner is me.
01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:39.199
I'm gonna say Mike.
01:16:40.159 --> 01:16:45.199
I I'm the winner because I got to hear some of absolutely incredible conversation from you guys.
01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:48.479
And the real winner is gonna be our listeners and even Derek.
01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:50.319
Okay, so I'm gonna turn this over to Derek.
01:16:52.399 --> 01:16:58.399
Derek, uh, this is probably the least I've ever talked in one of our episodes.
01:16:58.640 --> 01:17:00.399
And it's been fantastic.
01:17:04.399 --> 01:17:06.720
Just blessing with you, my I love you, Derek.
01:17:06.960 --> 01:17:09.359
Have you learned nothing from this conversation about competition?
01:17:09.680 --> 01:17:14.640
It's not about so, gentlemen, I just want to thank you both.
01:17:14.800 --> 01:17:21.119
Uh I thank you both for uh for for the pulpit that you stand in and that you stand for.
01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:26.800
And again, that we can do this because you're both great people.
01:17:27.119 --> 01:17:28.560
And Mike's okay.
01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:32.159
So I I appreciate y'all coming on.
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:54.000
I I I just hope that we can uh uh have this conversation uh uh maybe again at some point, and uh just help everybody understand that uh it's okay to have an opinion, but it's also so great to hear another one and to be able to converse about it.
01:17:54.159 --> 01:17:56.000
I think that's lost in society.
01:17:56.079 --> 01:17:59.840
That's my bandstand I preach on civility is a lost art.
01:18:00.399 --> 01:18:02.880
So uh thank you for being civil.
01:18:03.600 --> 01:18:06.960
And I hope that hey, listen, Mike, I'm gonna throw this out there too.
01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:12.159
If anybody else has something they want to add to this conversation, please let us know.
01:18:12.319 --> 01:18:16.319
I'd love to hear feedback from this and we can share that.
01:18:16.479 --> 01:18:21.520
And uh and we all appreciate uh learning.
01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:23.520
I think that we would all agree with that.
01:18:23.600 --> 01:18:25.680
We're all open to being educated.
01:18:25.840 --> 01:18:27.439
So thanks, guys.
01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:28.880
I don't know any other way to say it.
01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:30.319
I hope you have a wonderful week.
01:18:30.479 --> 01:18:37.359
I hope that you're getting ready for uh whatever your uh post-school months look like.
01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:39.840
Uh I don't know that you get those anymore, Steven.
01:18:40.079 --> 01:18:41.760
You're probably Stephen really.
01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:43.600
12 months all the time.
01:18:43.840 --> 01:18:49.119
But um y'all be great, be safe, and please be successful.
01:18:49.359 --> 01:18:52.720
And I I just hope you get the greatest reward out of what you do.
01:18:52.800 --> 01:18:53.520
So thanks again.
01:18:54.000 --> 01:18:54.800
Right back at you.
01:18:54.880 --> 01:18:55.520
Thank you for having us.
01:18:56.159 --> 01:18:56.479
You bet.
01:18:56.960 --> 01:18:57.359
Thank you guys.
01:18:57.920 --> 01:18:58.319
Love you guys.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.600
So it's great to see our friends back with us, Mike.
00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:04.240
I don't know.
00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:11.679
This is y'all's first adventure back since uh our color scheme has changed from the red and blue to the teal and gold.
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:17.359
Um so we uh appreciate Tarpley being part of the Ask Mike.
00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:19.600
But man, Mike, I'm glad to see our friends back with us.
00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:23.920
We got Brian Hikamovich, Dan in Fredericksburg, our good friend Stephen Cox hanging out.
00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:25.359
Are you in San Antonio today?
00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:26.559
Oh, yeah.
00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:28.559
Okay, cool.
00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:30.879
Um I'm hanging out in West Texas.
00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:32.880
Mike's hanging out in the Key City.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:35.119
So what are we doing today, Mike?
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:37.920
What why do we have this gathering of friends?
00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.039
I tell you what, the first thing is yes, our colors have changed.
00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:42.960
I'm waiting for the new fight song.
00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:46.799
We'll we'll just have to get on it, composer.
00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:47.119
All right.
00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:49.920
But um, yeah, I'll get Luke McMillan to get working on that.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:52.000
Um, but no, today's gonna be a fun one.
00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:59.280
Um, got two of the my good friends that we can talk about how we've known each other in terms of decades instead of just a couple of years.
00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:00.799
And so that's always awesome.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:08.799
But it's gonna be a fun little spirited debate on uh the pros and cons of competition in music and band.
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:10.480
So it's gonna be a lot of fun.
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:14.480
So uh this is my good friend Brian Hekomovich down at Fredericksburg.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:19.280
Uh, I met him a long time ago when he applied for a choir job at Wiley.
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:20.799
That was a couple decades back.
00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:22.480
It was a while back, yes.
00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:25.359
It was a while back, and then uh and then we've got Mr.
00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:31.920
Stephen Cox, who I remember being uh a kid just kind of wandering around with a clarinet all the way through uh doing his Howard Payne stuff.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:36.799
So starting with Brian, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing, and then we'll kick it over to Steven.
00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:46.719
Oh yeah, I grew up uh up in West Texas in the Panhandle, uh just outside Lubbock in a town called Slayton, Texas, and uh was part of uh the course of the band program there.
00:01:46.879 --> 00:02:07.040
And uh then I made my way down to Central Texas and the hill country and uh taught at a couple different schools down here and uh finding myself here in Fredericksburg, Texas, uh down in uh the German town uh with Main Street and all the wineries you could want and all the uh establishments you could want and be Airbnbs and and doing the band thing.
00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:10.080
So it's uh been a great time and peaches, yes.
00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:14.080
You know, I thought peaches were gonna be bigger here, but wine seems to have been taken over.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:18.400
Stress increases it's uh huh.
00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:18.800
That's right.
00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:20.400
Yeah, that's right.
00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:26.240
But you know, uh I've been here five years and uh I've had a a really good go of it and just loving every minute of it.
00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:28.560
So excited to be on the podcast today.
00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:30.560
It's an honor to be here and thank you for having me.
00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:31.360
Awesome.
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:38.240
And and Stephen, I know you're too humbled even mention this because I don't know the exact year, but he's a educator Grammy Award winner.
00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:42.879
So we have like a potential egot in our in our midst today.
00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:48.800
But Stephen, tell us a little bit about yourself, who you're working for, what you're working for, your mission in life, et cetera.
00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:49.759
Go for it.
00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:56.240
Yeah, well, I grew up in early Texas, which if you don't know where that is, it's like right next to Brownwood.
00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:00.639
And if you don't know where that is, it's like south of Abilene, like an hour and a half.
00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:06.000
And if you don't know where that is, it's like to the left of Dallas Fort Worth for about two hours, you know.
00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:06.639
So, right.
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:12.960
So uh anyway, grew up in rural Texas, uh, taught for a long time in Eastland, Texas with a great crew.
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:18.639
Um, and uh I'm excited to be here because these are all of you know my favorite people in this podcast right now.
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:20.240
These are all the friends I have.
00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:22.080
So I'm very excited about that.
00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:31.039
Um I uh I also taught here in San Antonio, did some popular music education, started a program at the Foxtick campus here in downtown San Antonio.
00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:33.599
And now I work for the Willis Wonderland Foundation.
00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:50.400
We do a program called Musical Wonders, where I traveled across the country doing creative music making with teachers, things like improvisation, composition, arranging, all the creativity stuff, the stuff that you need to make music for the times you're not with 60 of your favorite friends and a professional conductor.
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:52.639
And so that's uh that's what my gig is now.
00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:54.159
And I'm happy to be here today.
00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:54.879
Awesome.
00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:55.120
Cool.
00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:59.360
And I tell you what, with our situation, we have I've got two really good friends in front of me.
00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:03.280
We're gonna do this in a real loosely structured debate format.
00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.960
Uh, we're not using timers and Jerry uh Springer.
00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:09.280
Oh no, he's got it.
00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.400
I knew he's he's self-moderated.
00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:14.400
Self-moderated.
00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:27.199
Um, but uh to start this thing off, what we're gonna do for our listeners, we're gonna give each person about oh, about up to five minutes or so in that general area, kind of an opening statement and uh for pro and con with the competition.
00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:42.560
I will say that both these guys are my heroes because uh their passion for what they do is unsurpassed, and their passion kind of goes at times in the same direction, and at other times kind of opposing directions, you know, as far as uh what they do in their in their livelihood.
00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:44.399
So this is gonna be a whole lot of fun.
00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:46.000
So we're gonna start with Steven.
00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:47.680
How about your hey, Mike?
00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:48.319
Yes, sir.
00:04:48.639 --> 00:05:05.199
Before we do that, just to make sure that we're clear for anybody that just happens to wander in into not knowing what Texas music education is sometimes predicated on, we have a structure of UIL, and in that structure there are competitions.
00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:12.000
There are contests for marching in the fall, for concert and sight reading in the spring, and just sort of the whole thing.
00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:20.800
It's you know, even I would say the BOA or the the national uh the the national groups that do it's all about who's gonna be.
00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:22.720
I didn't shouldn't say that right.
00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:26.000
The competition is how good can you be, right?
00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:32.560
That that's kind of what the rating system has become in people's minds.
00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:37.519
I'm not sure I agree a hundred percent that that's what it was ever intended to be, but that's kind of what it's become.
00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:39.920
I think it was always intended to be that.
00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.319
I agree with you, but it was always intended to be a competition.
00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:43.199
Start of the company.
00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:47.839
Yeah, but they couch it carefully with you know, superior, excellent.
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:49.600
These are all sound good, right?
00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:52.560
But if you don't get the one, you didn't get the one.
00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:53.360
Yeah, still one.
00:05:53.759 --> 00:06:11.920
So basically that's for those that might be listening outside of the state of Texas, that's what we're referencing when we're talking about competition, is you take your high school group of of kids to a it's almost like a festival setting, not necessarily a festival, but a a an adjudication.
00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:16.160
People sit down and evaluate your group and tell you how they feel you did.
00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:22.160
So that's that's kind of the the benchmark of of where this conversation is coming from.
00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:23.920
Okay, very good, very good.
00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:25.040
All right, Steven.
00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:33.120
All right, as mentioned, I I uh I brought my own timer because I want to make sure that I don't over talk because I do.
00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:34.399
And I made myself notes.
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:37.040
I've got a 13-point list here for this five minutes.
00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:39.680
So I'm gonna do really good with this opening.
00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:40.560
I'm prepared.
00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:49.920
So uh my argument today is that while competition has benefits that we've all kind of accepted, uh, I believe it also has very serious cost.
00:06:50.160 --> 00:07:00.959
And I also believe that it's possible and maybe even preferable to achieve those benefits through other more um, what would I say, more authentic means than competition.
00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:04.959
So uh I'm sure that we're gonna have a great talk about what the benefits of competition are.
00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:07.759
So I'm gonna go ahead and start with what I perceive as being the cost.
00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:17.439
And as mentioned before, competitions may be direct ranking where we have, you know, 10 students or 10 schools or 10 ensembles, and we rank them from first to 10.
00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:31.920
But it could also be in the rating system where it becomes a de facto competition where everybody is very clearly sorted, uh, very clearly sorted across the five ratings in general, or I guess really only three ratings now, but that's a different discussion entirely.
00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:56.959
So the main disbenfits, the I guess you would call them cost that I would say is uh, you know, the first one is that, and this is kind of the core of it, competitions are extrinsic motivators, meaning it's not about making music per se, it's about this other thing, the receiving of the trophy, the receiving of um the respect of your peers or whatever we tend to project onto that.
00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:03.839
Like making the music is one thing, handing someone a trophy because they made the music based on a rubric is an entirely extrinsic thing.
00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.240
All extrinsic motivation comes with some pretty clear cost.
00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:12.480
Um, and this is mostly based on a huge body of research called self-determination theory.
00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:15.680
We did a whole episode on that here at Ask Mike when I was here before.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:16.560
That was a good thing.
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:24.079
Um, but basically, the big risk is that um these things like contests tend to be perceived as very controlling.
00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:30.480
So whoever is running the contest or whoever's directing them towards it, it really puts parameters down on what people are expected to do.
00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:34.080
And as human beings, we actually just really don't like that very much psychologically.
00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:45.279
Secondly, you have this very real risk that you will actually replace intrinsic motivation with extrinsic motivation instead, or prevent the intrinsic motivation from ever occurring.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.399
So intrinsic motivation would be I just like playing music.
00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:50.159
I just like being in the band.
00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.720
I just like going to these football games and doing this stuff.
00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:59.840
I just like improving and getting better, that competitions can come to replace that or stunt the development of that happening.
00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:05.759
So that would be someone who maybe plays instruments all the way through high school and they get to college and they're like, oh, there's no competitions.
00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:08.720
I don't want to do it anymore, because it was never really about the music.
00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:09.919
It was about the competitions.
00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:12.000
That would be an example of that outcome.
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.320
And I've only got 12 more things on this list.
00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:17.360
So I'm gonna go real fast for my remaining one and a half minutes.
00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:22.159
Um, additionally, they tend to undermine the positive relatedness of the students.
00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:29.200
So we see each other as peers or obstacles uh instead of being just peers that we want to help, being obstacles to one another's success.
00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:35.519
Whenever we're sitting up there watching another band perform, we might be going, ooh, I hope they mess up instead of, oh, cool, I love what's happening now.
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:36.320
It's so cool.
00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:41.039
These people that, you know, are at one community away from mine, they're not our peers.
00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:42.240
They're a competition instead.
00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:45.919
And that's probably bad for collaboration across programs.
00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.279
And any competition in programs would have the same effect with the students.
00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:54.080
If you're in a chair ranking with someone else, it is irrational to help them.
00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:55.919
It literally works against that goal.
00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:59.679
And that's that's not your goal, in which case, why are we doing it if it's not the goal, right?
00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:03.679
So um, let's see, there's a tendency for these things to further inequities.
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:04.720
Think about marching band.
00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:11.360
My God, you can line up the budgets and then break people into the 20% that they're probably going to land in by and large.
00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:18.240
It's not 100%, but I know whenever I was doing marching band, getting a significant improvement in the budget, it improved my score.
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:19.279
And that was real and true.
00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:23.200
And I don't think many people in the marching band game would disagree, uh, disagree.
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:25.360
Um, it contributes to job creep.
00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:27.759
Jobs are, you know, a lot busier than they were.
00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:38.399
Now, when there's five, six, seven competitions, winter line, winter guard, whereas Mike, I don't know when you started teaching, but I'm sure when you were in school, uh, the band calendar did not look like it does right now.
00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:40.480
Uh, it doesn't reflect lifelong musicianship.
00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:42.960
You leave school, there's no more music competitions, it's over.
00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:47.120
So, like again, if that's the reason you're doing it, that's gonna end pretty quick.
00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:49.679
Uh, let's see, it can distract from deeper goals.
00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:50.960
There's other things we could be doing.
00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:52.559
So there's an opportunity cost.
00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:58.159
Uh, we can wind up teaching to the test very easily of these contests instead of teaching what we think matters.
00:10:58.399 --> 00:10:59.360
Uh, let's see.
00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:01.600
Uh, what about increasing stress?
00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.200
There is nothing more stressful in my life than what area marching contest was.
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:10.000
Like I think I've had family members die and it was less stressful than area marching contest was.
00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:12.720
So, you know, uh, that's the end of my timer.
00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:15.759
I'll save the five points for later, but that's why I've got my timer.
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:17.840
Well, thank you so much, Stephen.
00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:18.720
Very good points.
00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:19.200
Mr.
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:21.519
Brian, you're a good thing.
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:22.559
Yes, thank you so much.
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:30.480
And and you everyone should know that Stephen and I are are are just very respectful of each other, of course, but we're also friends.
00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:40.639
And uh I I just start off by saying there's not very much I disagree with what Stephen is saying and and really the the topic of debate, but I think I frame it just a little bit different.
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:53.600
And uh, and I would just start off by approaching my thing uh or my side or my viewpoint as saying, uh, I don't know if we're really talking about competition or we're talking about toxicity uh in the human element.
00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:55.360
Uh, but that is reality.
00:11:55.600 --> 00:12:04.159
And um, just like a lot of things, I'm gonna try to base things in reality uh as a as opposed to theory and uh perfect worldness.
00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.200
Um, but that's that's also needs to be played both ways.
00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:11.519
And out of respect to that conversation and that debate, I want to just acknowledge that.
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:17.759
Um, competition in school music programs is has always been debated, uh especially uh with music.
00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:29.679
And when it's implemented thoughtfully, I really do sincerely believe it is a force for good and is a net positive for uh students, programs, communities.
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:31.840
Uh, and of course, it's not without its flaws.
00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.000
At its core, competition provides students with shared goals.
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:40.639
They're usually a much more clear, something tangible to strive forward.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:47.440
Um, that gives uh a sense of purpose when it comes to why we're doing what we're doing.
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:51.759
That's a little more physical, a little more tangible for the students to be able to see.
00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:57.200
It's a little more clear as opposed to always just doing it because we should do things.
00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:01.679
Um, I think that speaks to students just a little more and speaks to people a little bit more.
00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:03.840
Um, we rehearse with more intention.
00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:08.559
Uh, we listen more critically, we take greater ownership of the individual role.
00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:12.799
Uh, I've seen firsthand how competition helps with student buy-in.
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:15.600
Um, they're not just participating, they're invested.
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.559
They care about the outcome because they care about each other.
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:26.000
And um, I know uh Steven talked about um not wanting to help the person next to him because that's their competition.
00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.240
Um I think that's a culture thing.
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:35.360
And I and I would tell you, thankfully, in my program, we wouldn't have it any other way where you are helping the person next to you.
00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:37.039
And I'll give you an example of that.
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:44.639
Um at Area Marching this past year, uh, one of the things that our students love to do is go around to talk to the other bands in the parking lot.
00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:46.799
And and that's they're out there creating memories.
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:51.840
I know what we often talk about like your memories when you look back are not going to be your score.
00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:01.200
They're gonna be the memories of meeting those kids and having getting rained on in the middle of a performance and and giggling and laughing and having a blast with other people.
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:07.360
Um, and one of the cool things about it is I saw our kids go on on TikTok because you know, TikTok can get very local sometimes.
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:16.879
So, not that I'm I'm certainly not following or or friends with any students on TikTok, but they come up and you'll see, you know, a band kid from another town will post something.
00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:23.200
And and I'll see our very own kids, the ones who I can identify, they'll they'll be like, oh, you know, y'all, y'all were awesome.
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:24.320
We really loved your show.
00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:25.279
Great job.
00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:28.960
And I'll ask that kid, I was like, hey, I saw that comment you made on TikTok.
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:30.960
I'm really proud of you for saying that.
00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.240
But I gotta ask, like, I don't think you even saw their show.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.039
And they're like, oh, we didn't, but we just wanted a Tom, good job.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:44.000
You know, and uh, and and I I think that that comes from the culture that we should be creating in our in our band halls.
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:48.960
Not and and competition um can be a fun and a spirited thing.
00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:51.679
It also plays a significant role beyond the classroom.
00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:57.440
And I think this is where we get into the reality of competition and what it does for our programs.
00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.759
Uh, visibility and credibility.
00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:12.639
Now, we know that our programs are credible with or without competition, but it creates credibility um with other people who are involved in in music and uh or are involved in in school and school districts.
00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:19.200
So uh it helps bring that a little bit closer to home and provides that level of support for schools and communities.
00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:29.600
And whether it's ratings or finals or uh even a measurable growth, it translates into support from not only your town, but your school, your administrators.
00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:36.000
Um, and it often leads to better funding and stronger staffing and more opportunities for students.
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:42.960
Um, yes, we didn't have the calendar that we probably had 30 years ago, but we also don't have the staff that we had 30 years ago.
00:15:43.039 --> 00:16:00.480
I know Fredericksburg didn't, and I know a lot of the other schools that don't have the staff and the resources that um they had 30 years ago, they have they have much more in abundance, um, regardless of trends and and um and politicalness and and things like that uh to that nature.
00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:05.440
So, just as importantly, I think competition helps develop student confidence and resilience.
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:10.639
Uh performing under pressure and receiving feedback is something that um we have to do in our life.
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:12.720
And I think it it appeals to that.
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:15.759
Uh, but at the same time, students are also in a big group.
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:31.120
And so they're able to enjoy it for music and the competitiveness, and it does not speak to everybody, but that competitiveness can can be a secondary or even further down on the priority list for students and still have a wonderful experience in band programs.
00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:44.399
I think the self-confidence that it gives students uh because we're able to support our music programs and uh and and grow through our musical talent and performance uh is really what it comes down to.
00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:50.080
And anything we can do to promote that um it can and should be a good thing.
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:54.879
Uh, but these experiences, when they're guided appropriately, can be incredibly valuable.
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.039
And I want to be clear competition is not all positive.
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:10.160
It has a toxicness uh to it, and it is definitely present in music programs today and probably has been for you know decades and generations.
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.599
Uh, and it can be overemphasized, it can be misused.
00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:18.079
Uh, but those are issues of implementation, not necessarily the concept itself.
00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:27.119
And I think that speaks more to the people who created those environments, whether it's directors or school districts uh or even the students themselves.
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:33.759
Uh it's the responsibility on us as educators is to focus on that growth and the artistry and the student experience.
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:40.960
And when competition can be used for a tool and not as the end goal, I don't think it takes away from music education.
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:50.240
It actually strengthens it, it elevates it, and ultimately creates a more engaged and competent, capable student and music program for our schools.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:52.720
And so that's that.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:55.039
Great opening statements, guys.
00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:56.720
That's the first part of this debate.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.279
Or we've agreed for the second part of the debate.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:07.359
Each uh person will submit a point and uh talk to that point, and the uh other person will give a rebuttal to that point.
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.599
And uh, if you could, gentlemen, keep it about two minutes so we can cover lots of material.
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:14.319
If we go, we're not keeping a timer up here, you know.
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:15.920
So just kind of keep it in that area.
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.480
So uh Steven, you're first up, my friend.
00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:20.960
So what what's one point you'd like to make?
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:23.200
Yeah, I did good.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.039
I took notes and and thank you.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.200
I thought that was a great opening statement.
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:37.440
Um I guess what I would like to say is many of the things you talked about, I think were the positive aspects of any team activity and especially music making.
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:38.559
And I took notes.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.440
You know, you said things like uh performance and feedback.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.960
That's not a competition, that's just performing and getting feedback, right?
00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:53.359
And as I looked through all of these things, I could not come up with a single one of these things that requires ranking or rating of people in order to get the benefit.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.200
So I guess my my counterpoint would be in what times is the rating or the ranking required?
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:07.200
Because otherwise, it's just getting together and making music, which I wholeheartedly endorse, getting feedback from respected people, celebrating everybody doing a good job.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:09.119
I endorse every single bit of that.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:16.960
But I have a big problem with ranking and rating, and that's the only thing that, you know, I you like that's the competition aspect.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.759
Everything else is just like the awesomeness of music.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.400
So uh I think I did that in under two minutes.
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:23.359
That would be my question.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:29.119
What are the things that we're talking about today require the ranking and rating in order for it to be beneficial?
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:29.680
And why?
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.839
I don't think any of it is required.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:41.680
Um, and so again, uh we're gonna find a lot of middle ground and similarity in in our belief system, of course, because we're music educators first before we're competitors.
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.400
And uh I've actually had to explain that to students before.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:45.279
Why didn't you do this?
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:46.079
Why didn't you do this?
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.119
It's like, because I'm a teacher first before I'm a competitor.
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.640
And uh, and so uh I'm not disagreeing with that statement.
00:19:52.799 --> 00:20:00.640
However, I think um the part of competition that implements into that is used as a tool into what we're doing.
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.640
And I think it adds a lot of credibility um to the feedback.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:24.640
And so um I think we can also look at uh when you bring in a clinician, if you hear a clinician say, uh, you know, hey, we need to make sure that we're playing with a really good open sound right here, and and clarinets, y'all are y'all need to bring out your moving line and saxophones, you're always too loud, and you know, all the common pitfalls.
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.960
Uh how many times have we heard a clinician say it?
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.279
And the band director goes, I've been telling them that.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.799
And uh, and so uh again, is that needed for competition?
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:40.640
No, but it does get a little bit of uh credibility to some of the statements that we're trying to teach them, some of the concepts we're trying to teach them.
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:48.880
Uh and then I would also uh add in that used as a tool, again, not as the main focus, uh the the motivation aspect.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:58.880
I mean, human beings are mostly, uh I would say most human beings are uh they're they're in they enjoy competition.
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.160
It's fun for them.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:05.279
Um, it can be used as a tool for motivation, it can be used as a tool for improvement.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:14.640
Uh, and I have seen so many students that have used competition as a motivator to get better and then fall in love with music.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:21.680
And and that's kind of where I'm talking about um a more real-world example because I think I've just seen it happen so many times.
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:23.200
Again, not necessary.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:27.279
Um, we can certainly have band and choir and orchestra without competition.
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:29.680
And it can certainly be done at a high level.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:39.119
I just think competition is uh allows that those programs to develop faster and uh become better and become more supported in their communities.
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:41.759
Very cool.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:42.720
Thank you, gentlemen.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.920
And Brian, is there a uh separate point you'd like to make that we could see uh Steven's rebuttal?
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:48.799
Uh sure.
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:58.960
I I think um I would like to hear what Stephen, what you think about the support system when it comes to um the everyday school district.
00:21:59.119 --> 00:21:59.519
Now, obviously.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.680
I'm very rooted in Texas.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:03.440
Um, I've only taught in Texas.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:09.200
And and you, my friend, have been able to be much more traveled in around the school music programs.
00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:13.039
And um, I I look at school music programs from afar.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:16.799
So I'm gonna be a little naive in in what the facts that I know.
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:26.400
But from what I understand, Texas is is at least one of the few places in the country that has uh a very supported music education system.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:48.319
And um I think with the competition uh that we put emphasis that we do tend to put on it in Texas, although it can be negative in a lot of ways, um, I think it's allowed so many programs to flourish from out in the middle of nowhere to in inside the big cities and and everywhere in between, whether it's size or social economic background.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.559
Uh and I don't know that that's happening and across the nation.
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:54.960
All right, Steven.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:56.319
Yeah.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.559
So, first of all, there are great programs in lots of places.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.519
So um, you know, our wealthiest suburban bands that play at Midwest are phenomenal to behold.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:11.680
And they are some of the best supported bands financially in the country.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:16.480
And it may be that those specific programs used competition to get their resources.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:17.519
That may be the case.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:24.559
But there's actually really fantastic band programs in other states too, and other really good band directors and other really good music educators.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:31.759
And so I have some deep questions about exactly how we define those things and then the attribution.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.119
Like, is it because we go to competitions that we have good resources?
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.519
Is it because we're really exposed?
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:43.759
Like the we, you know, the other thing that's really unique about Texas is we play at all the football games and we have a big football culture.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:49.599
And I don't know how much the supportive band programs is a direct tag along to just how exposed they are into football.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.319
You know, every single town, you're gonna see that band every week.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:59.519
And so if it's not good, it reflects on the school differently than if uh, you know, you only need an eight-piece basketball band or something, right?
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:06.640
So I think there's lots of contributing factors, not the least of which we have a culture of uh, you know, really great teachers too.
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.759
And I don't think because they compete is why they're good.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.079
I I don't, I mean, like I think there's lots of reasons for that.
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:13.839
We have great colleges, you know.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:21.599
Um, what I would say is that winning trophies is going to work for some percentage of schools.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:33.119
And almost winning trophies is going to work for some percentage of schools, but it's on the back of a lot of programs that are seen as useless and are never going to be supported because if they don't lose, then the winning doesn't mean anything.
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:50.240
And so, you know, I've been fortunate enough to work with schools where, you know, they don't have consistent feeders, they don't have realistic budgets, you know, uh, like 5A inner city schools that have a smaller budget than I had in rural Texas, you know, like that's a very real thing.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:58.400
And these competition structures are not doing anything good for them, but those structures require them in order to have other people labeled as winners, right?
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:05.839
And so to whatever extent people use these things to advocate for resources, that may be one way to get resources.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.039
But I would argue there's a lot of other ways to get resources.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.119
I think the band programs need to sound good.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:12.960
I think that really matters, you know?
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:19.279
Um, whether or not they sound better than somebody else with different resources and a different group of kids, I don't think that matters as much.
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:28.160
But what really matters is showing up at the nursing home, showing up at civic events, making sure that your community is deeply integrated in what's happening with the band program.
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:34.079
And that's a really powerful and sustainable way that every single school can advocate for resources.
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:35.680
So that would be my argument.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:36.880
There's good programs everywhere.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:43.920
I wouldn't deny that our competitive structure in Texas has been used by many programs to advocate for more resources.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.960
I just think that's it's kind of an interesting system, isn't it?
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:56.240
And maybe, maybe there are other ways that we could do that that don't require programs to lose in order for our program to advocate for resources.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.640
Yeah, and I would I would say that I think uh, I mean, you're absolutely right.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:09.920
There's there's many ways to advocate for your program and many ways to uh um grow a program, whether musically numbers-wise, budget-wise, anything.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.920
Um, and that's one of the reasons why I think UIL is such a great system.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:21.359
Um, it not without its flaws, of course, but you have the option um of number one, just doing UIL, period.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:32.160
Um, obviously you're gonna have the the stressors of uh admin who are gonna require it, but I think that's actually uh used as a scapegoat from a lot of different people.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.599
Um at least I've worked in you know about five different school districts.
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:49.359
And um I think if I came to any of my administrators and explained why I didn't want to do UIL that year and gave them a thought-out student-centered um process of why, um, it'd be pretty easy to not do it.
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:57.599
Um I I probably am the minority because I I hear that sound bite uh from the other side, not from Steven, but from other people so often.
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:13.440
But uh I would also say that the UIL system set up with the rating system as opposed to you know, outside of marching band, uh, a placement system um allows for um you to see as a student and as a director your progress.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:19.200
Um, my first year as a teacher, I made a three in sight reading and I made a two on stage.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.720
And my next year, I made a three on stage and a three in sight reading, and I did not improve that year.
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:30.480
And so I was able to get you know feedback on what I was doing as a teacher.
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:41.279
I was able to get feedback from my students on how they're playing, and I was able to use that as a as a big time tool to um just become a better teacher.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:53.759
And uh, and throughout the system of UIL, um, I appreciate that you know you can do a lot of different things and it's set up for a way for you to use it as a tool and not necessarily use it as just the competitive force of it.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:59.839
Um, marching band is obviously unique uh in that aspect, and and that's probably the one that gets abused the most.
00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:07.440
And I will say abuse uh when it comes to competition and what we're talking about, that toxic competitive culture.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:13.039
Uh, but I just I put a lot of faith in behind our UIL system and the way we're able to use that.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:23.200
Um, the other thing I I do want to acknowledge is um that writing system in itself, uh a lot of times it's the the ones and the everybody else's.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:29.440
Um and that's I think a culture that our band directors have created, that us as educators have created.
00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:33.680
Um, I don't see that as a culture that UIL has necessarily created.
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.480
Um, I don't know their intent behind everything.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:41.920
Um, but I know you can go to state uh solo and ensemble and you get a medal for getting a two.
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.119
And and and still it's seen as bad, you know.
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:49.119
And so it but never mind you're at state and in and appreciating that.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:58.799
Uh, but I feel like maybe us as uh educators have soiled that um that's the integrity of the system in that way.
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:01.279
All right.
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.759
Steven, you want to make a point and have uh Brian.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:04.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.119
I have I have a lot of thoughts about the UIL system.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.119
And again, as a as a participant for many years, as a student and a director.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.480
And, you know, there's a lot of things I like.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:16.400
Like, you know, the feedback.
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:17.839
I really like getting feedback.
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:18.880
I like getting my band out.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:25.119
And I especially like, although we don't encourage this in our state like they do in other states, um, seeing other groups perform.
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.640
And it's a big part of it.
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:31.200
Like a lot of states, they require that when you go to adjudication, you watch other groups perform.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:37.440
You know, um, I again, I don't think the thing that makes it good is that at the end of it, they stick a number on it.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.279
And I think maybe the numbers are the most problematic part of that system.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:49.359
Uh, you know, I know we're saying I don't know when I it when it got better, when it got worse, you know, getting that feedback, that kind of thing.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:52.559
But, you know, your band can get better and your ratings can get worse.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:55.519
That's a normal experience that lots of people have had.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:04.319
Um, and then I also, whenever I notice all the directors talking about this, the trophy goes in the band hall, but the directors are talking about their scores.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:11.200
You know, this is what I scored, this is what, you know, and in that regard, I think directors get a lot of feedback from these things, you know.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:16.240
But at least a quarter of the kids in your high school band graduated, and so they don't know how they're going to do better next year.
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:18.079
And this is the end of it for them, right?
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.920
So there's there's a lot of things about that that I really question.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:25.200
You know, putting the number on at the end, I think is the least helpful part.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:26.480
The feedback has been great.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:34.079
I also have been in competitions as a student, as a director, and as a judge, where almost never do I disagree with the feedback.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.640
Like sometimes it could have been stated better, but generally the feedback is right, okay.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:43.839
But then there have been lots of times I've disagreed with scores where I would have given a different score to that group.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:49.359
I would say I've never been to a contest where I watched multiple groups and there weren't some that I would have scored differently.
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.720
And you know that's true because the judge's scores are not consistent.
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:53.200
Okay.
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:58.720
So again, if we taught, think about the UIL system and all the things we think are wonderful.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:02.400
What of the good parts come primarily from that score?
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:03.759
And what of the bad parts?
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:11.200
And I would say 90% of the bad parts come from the ratings and the rankings, and you know, 10% of the good parts.
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.519
And then meanwhile, 90% of the good stuff comes from other things that are part of that structure.
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:27.759
So not against a structure, not against clinicians, not against seeing other groups, not against getting feedback, not against uh one of those clinicians, you know, grab you on the shoulder afterwards and being like, dude, you got to start listening for tuning because they're crashing into burning.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:35.920
And I think my desire to make my music more authentic, to help my students learn and grow is enough to motivate me to take that feedback.
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:46.160
I don't need the threat of the score, which I think tends to, regardless of how we want to sugarcoat it, amount to public praise or public embarrassment for our students and for ourselves.
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:49.920
And again, I know you don't have to think about it that way, but I think you kind of do.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:53.119
You know, we said it's a five-rating system, it's a one and everything else.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:58.000
I don't think most people that care at all about the ratings are ever going to be happy with anything less than a one.
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.119
And I think that's again, how the that just is the nature of it.
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:03.920
It's like the design of its system itself makes these things.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:09.039
And when you don't see that, it's because uh we've managed to overcome that disincentive.
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:15.839
Like we've managed to be so, and then by the point you get to there, you've got to ask yourself, well, what were those ratings actually for?
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:17.680
That'd be my my counterpoint there.
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.119
Oh, by the way, one other thing.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:26.079
Uh, speaking of a national standpoint, we are one of like one or two states that publicly archive and publish everybody's UIL rankings.
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:30.079
And I basically have two things I would change about the UIL system that I think are realistic.
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:31.039
So this is my big pitch.
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:31.759
This is what I would do.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:34.079
Number one, I would allow people to go for comment only.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:43.200
Okay, leave the ratings for everyone that wants them, but allow people to participate in the system and get that 90% of the good stuff, you know, without having to do the ratings.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:44.319
I think that'd be very powerful.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.519
The second thing is I would stop publishing and archiving the scores.
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.400
It is not uncommon in Texas to apply for a position.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:59.279
And we do two things in Texas, not every school, but a lot of schools, where if you don't have UIL history, you could be the best band director that ever lived, but you taught in a different state.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.720
A lot of schools, that's the same as having zero band experience.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:12.000
Uh, additionally, um, a lot of places before you ever are called in for an interview, they're going to look up your UIL history, and you may not get that interview if it's not what they want to see.
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:21.119
Which, why in that case, would any band director in Texas who cares about their career ever go somewhere where it's challenging to get those if they care about that system?
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.559
So that would be my again, my counter-argument to those things.
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:26.160
I hope that's not coming across rough.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.839
Again, I don't think anyone meant the way that it works exactly.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:36.480
But I think you it whether or not you see it in your individual program, I think we see it across the state to at least some reasonable extent.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.519
Yeah, that was definitely I'm sorry.
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:42.079
It's that was definitely one question I was going to get your thoughts from.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.839
So I'm I'm glad you brought that up, Stephen.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:58.960
But kind of going to Brian, um, one thought that goes through my head is competition, whether I agree with it or disagree with it, it's part of the process of me uh getting more money, better jobs.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:11.039
Um, my job right now is a clinician, and I think very few directors hire me to come into their school on the idea of they just want better music education for their children.
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:12.239
I hate to say that.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:18.719
It's toxic in that way, but it's like, what can my clone do to increase my scores?
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.280
You know, and then they get other clinicians as well.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:23.920
So Steven knows really good thoughts on that.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.840
I I've I I'm real curious about the idea.
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:30.800
That's interesting that other states don't publish things because I just kind of grew up with that, you know.
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:32.320
So that's a very interesting point.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:37.440
Ryan, what are your thoughts on that as far as careers, UIL producement, competition jobs?
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:48.320
I think uh man, publishing the scores, uh uh that that would definitely like you you said that, and I was like, well, man, my my ego, I want I want to see what everyone else is doing.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:50.559
And and that is a comparative thing.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:52.719
So uh yeah, kudos to that.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:57.599
And I I would love to see UIL offer a comments only um option.
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:03.519
Um, I don't think many would take it, um, but there are definitely some who would and would benefit greatly from it.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:21.039
Um, would you say it's reasonable that most people's uh excuse me, most band directors' ears and um way to critique themselves and the and their band change from like your first year to your tenth year.
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.960
Is that a reasonable thing to say?
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:24.480
I would say so.
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:24.719
Yeah.
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:25.360
Okay.
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:31.039
So one of the things that happened for me that were education again used as a tool.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:36.800
This I I could have figured this out many other ways, but uh sorry, not education, competition.
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:39.519
Competition was used as a tool for me.
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:46.719
Was um, I went to a marching contest very early on in my career, and I thought we were really good.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.119
And I had clinicians come in and tell me we were really good.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:55.119
And I went to that contest and I got a three.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:59.119
And, you know, to some bait, some people, three would be devastating.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.079
Two is like, ugh, but three is, you know, to some.
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:06.239
And then of course, like you like you said, the other two ratings, whether they're used or not.
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:20.800
Um, but I obviously was stunned by that, but I really took getting that and trying to understand why we received that to better myself as a teacher and take those comments for what they were.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:25.920
Whereas I don't know if I would have took those comments as seriously if I wasn't given a rating.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:30.400
And maybe that's a flaw in in my way of thinking, and I I can certainly accept that.
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:41.440
Um, but throughout my career, I've been able to get to the point where I now can look back on that and I say, how did I ever think that that was good?
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:44.320
And I mean good because it doesn't sound good.
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.360
You said bands need to sound good, it just didn't sound good.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:52.239
And uh and and and I thought in the moment that we sounded phenomenal.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:37:14.880
And uh and I can look back now because I've been able to hone in my skills from the the feedback and the ratings and to understand where I've definitely gotten feedback before that um how many of us have seen uh a sheet that was nothing but praise and get a two, or fill up a sheet full of criticisms and get a one.
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:22.559
And so they're not we they definitely are there's a human and artistic element to judging as just like there is music.
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:31.519
But I think that I took those um comments much more seriously and was able to really investigate why I'm not getting the results that I want.
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:36.639
And that really became helped me become a better teacher, as well as help my students become better students.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.360
Again, not the only way to do it, certainly not.
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:45.119
Um, music existed long before competition, long before UIL uh ever was a thing.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:48.320
Uh and so that that's I know shocking, right?
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:56.079
Uh and and you know, I John Phillips Sousa wasn't going around trying to get a one, you know, he just wanted his band to sound really, really good.
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:57.760
And and he made that happen.
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:09.599
And so um, again, that the inherent argument is not for me to disagree, but to to see that competition is just uh I really view it as something that helps on so many different levels.
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:25.280
And um, if we are not looking at education uh and competition objectively when it comes to the toxic uh and and negative views on that and addressing that, then I think that we're failing as educators, not necessarily the competitive system.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:27.280
Yeah, thank you.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:27.840
Thank you.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.119
And Stephen, can you give us uh kind of your ideas?
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:32.639
Because we've talked a lot on the phone.
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.960
We we have our uh we have our own podcast just between Stephen and I.
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:41.760
We call each other and uh vent and talk about things.
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:46.239
But he has a uh a really interesting approach to how to do music in school.
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:54.880
So I'm gonna give you a chance right now to kind of pitch kind of your your ideas with modern music, etc., with a modern band approach.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.639
So go for it, my friend.
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:02.239
Yeah, well, let me let me keep this a little narrower than our conversations.
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:02.719
Okay.
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:13.440
Uh, but the the main things that I would say is that I feel like and and again, I want I want to be really specific about what competition is.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:21.519
Everything we've talked about today, the only aspects that were competition were doing the thing and then ending with a numeric ranking or rating.
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:24.159
None of the rest of it was competition, right?
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:27.760
Getting the feedback, everything else, none of that was competition.
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.840
We use competition, I think, as a shortcut.
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:35.280
And this is not just competition, it's all extrinsic motivation.
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:46.639
You know, it's a shortcut to get from what we perceive to be the basic state of all the students, that they would literally do nothing, to getting them to do this thing that we want them to do.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:58.800
Um, and I think that's where the problem is, is that and and there's a mix of this, and this doesn't have to not exist within places where you're doing competitions, but I think competitions do get in the way.
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:09.280
And um, that is what I want is for the student to want the thing, and that's where they do it, not because um I've managed to use my power to make them do it, right?
00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:27.519
Um so again, there is a huge difference between someone who picks up a clarinet like me as a kid and loves the way it sounds and listens to all their favorite clarinet players and really wants to be able to reproduce that, and someone who's trying to win a contest or get a grade.
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:29.760
Those motivations are profoundly different.
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:35.679
It's the reason that I still pick up my clarinet every single week in practice, and I still listen to a lot of those people.
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.920
Um, it is harder to make people do that.
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:49.440
You have to like do a lot of work to make that inviting where you want to come into it, saying, Hey, if you guys work really hard, we get to do this really cool trip and everyone's gonna celebrate.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:56.159
That's really easy compared to, you know, the actual act of you know helping people fall in love with making music.
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.480
That being said, we're so lucky that it's music and not so many other things.
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:06.400
You know, it is completely normal to walk up to someone who is uh an all-state musician in Texas.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.199
So maybe say the best trombone player in the state of Texas, 5A6A.
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:13.599
And if you were to be like, oh my God, this is amazing.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:14.559
How long have you been playing?
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:15.519
They'd say seven years.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:16.800
I go, wow, that's amazing.
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:18.480
Who's your favorite trombone player?
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:21.920
And nine out of 10 times, they're gonna look at you like you're crazy.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.800
Like they literally cannot name a single trombone player.
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.440
And then you go, hey, would what's your favorite song?
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:29.679
Could you just play me a cool song on the trombone?
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.760
They're like, no, I don't know any songs.
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:33.760
I can play my part from the marching show.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:37.519
I can play the audition music, but I can't just play songs that I like.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:47.440
The what we get to through these competition systems is so far removed from the ways that people actually engage with music outside of schools that I think we lose a lot.
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:48.719
Uh I think we lose a lot.
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:52.639
And so it's a challenge if you step outside of extrinsic motivation.
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:55.599
It requires a lot of changes to the way that you operate.
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:58.480
Um, I will say, you know, some things we said earlier.
00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:01.199
I don't, I think a lot of humans don't enjoy competition.
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:06.000
There's a lot of culturals that are not nearly as competitive as we are in the United States.
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:10.079
Like we really we look at competition as being this really wonderful thing.
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:22.800
But I mean, pretty much every major religion speaks out against being competitive, you know, like like literally, I would not argue that humans at base enjoy competition universally.
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.719
I don't think that's a universal value.
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:30.400
Um, I think, especially too, even when we're talking about things like building character, I don't know about you.
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:37.599
I've had so much disappointment in my life and failure that was not set up in some type of competition, just like living life and trying to do things.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:42.880
I don't feel like anyone needed to create extra unnecessary failure for me in order to develop those skills.
00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:44.639
I was encountering plenty natural.
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:47.199
Maybe somebody else is way more successful than me.
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:51.119
So my argument is that we should be playing these instruments because we love making music.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.719
We should make music because it's fun to make music sound better, because it's more expressive.
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:03.679
But that is a completely different art than extrinsic motivation, which, you know, is grades, competitions, all these things I find to be really challenging compared to deeper things.
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:09.920
If you say, okay, instead of doing competitions, we're gonna do nothing, probably competitions are better than that.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:20.880
But if you say instead of doing competitions, we're gonna continue to perform for feedback, but maybe now we're gonna go play at the nursing home and we're gonna take and we're gonna do some composition and improvisation as a part of our class.
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:25.119
And you want this next year, the kids are gonna help design the marching show because we can take risk.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:28.880
Because if we, you know, so long as it's authentic to the kids and the crowd loves it.
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:36.000
Oh, can you imagine a world where the marching band was about entertaining the crowd at football games and we learned a new show every couple of weeks?
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:38.639
That would roll back time, like 40 or 50 years.
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:45.519
So that's what I'm saying is you know, you don't have to switch to teaching modern band or something else to think about this all differently.
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:47.679
I think you you were exactly right.
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:51.360
We've been making this argument as a profession for at least 100 years.
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:56.400
It seems like a lot of these structures developed between the 1920s and the 1940s, like all in there.
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.760
And, you know, from what I understand, the rating system was a direct result to all the problems.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.360
Problems with ranking systems.
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:04.880
But then I think still we have those inherent same type of challenges.
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:06.320
So it takes a lot of thought.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:14.559
But I would say if basically the ranking UIL system is 100 years old, and I think about my grandpa, he'd be 115, he had polio as a kid.
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:22.559
If we could solve polios, polio, we could probably improve the way that we adjudicate and help directors and advocate for resources and all of these things.
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:26.960
I can't believe that the system we came up with 100 years ago is the best way to do it still.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:30.559
I don't know if that was a good answer, Mike, but that's those are the answer.
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:31.599
That's a good answer.
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:33.679
So can I can I jump in on that?
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:35.039
Yes, you go for it, Brian.
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:39.039
So let me ask you to put this back on a different avenue.
00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:43.360
Um I think we we can be in it for the love of the game.
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:44.960
You know, we can we can do it.
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:46.320
And kids have a blast.
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:50.719
Like uh uh like I said earlier, we talked to the kids about all the memories they're gonna remember.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:52.320
They're not gonna really remember.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:45:01.440
They might remember winning a big competition, but they're gonna remember that bus ride and that conversation that they had with that kid, they're gonna remember how they felt after a performance on a Friday night.
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:05.039
Um, they're gonna remember that really, really good concert that they played.
00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:11.039
Uh, at least I do, and uh, and I think a lot of people uh echo that in in the circles that I'm around.
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:16.639
Um, but what about you know, the the system we have is what we have.
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:25.280
And um if we look at, for lack of a better term, Bubba, Bubba administrator, and um, and they're very data driven.
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:35.360
And music in itself is not so much data, at least not that we can portray, I think, very coherently uh to someone who's a numbers person.
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:38.400
Uh, and we're trying to get support for our programs.
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:43.760
And if we were just to get rid of it, what about all the support that would miss out on?
00:45:43.840 --> 00:46:12.320
And then furthermore, never mind support, what about all the kids that would no longer participate because of either that lack of support or because we weren't able to fully um uh fund or have enough teachers or support having a large program and where it's really just going to be limited uh into what we have uh equipment-wise and and um and support-wise, or even if we can get a bus to go to a game or anything like that.
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:15.599
Um what's your solution to that?
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:18.880
And I I I promise I'm not challenging an adversario way.
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:29.119
I really do want to know what would your solution be to the 2026 way of doing things that we would need such a paradigm shift uh to get away from competition.
00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:37.760
Well, I want to start again by saying there's a lot of programs right now that are not getting resources due to their contest results.
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:45.199
Like there are a lot of people that are damaged right now, that literally, you know, um their programs are not supported.
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:46.960
And it wasn't because they weren't doing well.
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:49.360
A lot of it's because of the current political climate.
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:53.760
I think we're all in trouble for resources, if I'm gonna be completely honest, over the next 10 or 15 years.
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:55.599
I'm very, very concerned about it.
00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:10.719
I was just in Miami and they were talking about how um they'd done such a movement to privatize schools and they'd gotten rid of a lot of the middle schools and replaced them with academies, and the academies didn't have um, you know, any uh athletics or fine arts, right?
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:14.400
Um, and I'm seeing the same thing happen here in San Antonio.
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:22.400
They're shutting down schools, they're replacing them with, you know, these uh uh non-district charters that are taking over public facilities and doing this.
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.719
So I'm really concerned about all of that.
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:28.320
Um, and it has it has not saved us that we're all going to contest.
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:30.960
Like we are seeing that exact thing happening right now.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:38.400
You know, how do you argue with an administrator who doesn't believe that teaching music is valuable and doesn't want to give you enough resources?
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:46.880
Like that's the question we're all asking because for some of them saying, well, if we get more, we might win is also not a great way to advocate for those things, you know?
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:54.239
Um, could we do feedback in a way where it's directed mainly to the administrators and to the teachers?
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:54.719
Maybe.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:59.519
I thought, you know, one of the problems with our adjudication system is it's not very well contexted.
00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:06.400
Like, yeah, you compete based on division, but you don't compete based on resources or the socioeconomic status.
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:13.599
Like it's almost impossible for me to give a rating if I don't actually know where they started and what they're dealing with and what those things are.
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:23.199
Like a first division for a band that meets five days a week versus a first division for a band that makes meets two days a week, I think are a different standard, but that's not on our rubrics.
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:24.239
We don't know what that is.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:26.320
So, you know, this has been challenging.
00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:34.000
I don't think there's a better answer to making people understand how much it matters than to go and matter really hard within your community.
00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:39.119
Like I think when it comes to the deeper, longer term, how do we keep this thing going for the next 50 years?
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:40.719
I don't think contest is going to save us.
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:47.760
I think if anything, the trend we've seen, especially with marching band over the last 40 years, is going to hasten the end of large ensemble programs.
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:49.760
Like I'm actually really concerned about that.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:49:02.559
So we have to admit that we are at an extreme when lots of schools go to, you know, two or three dozen contests a year when you consider winterline and winter guard and pre-UIL and all region, and you know, that's that's huge.
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:15.280
That's, you know, so I I guess my question is if an administrator only values winning a contest, it's going to be hard to convince them that anything that really matters matters because they don't get it, you know.
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:31.760
But I've had a lot of administrators, I'm like with you, where if I can show them how this is student-centered, and again, you don't replace going to contest with doing nothing, you know, like uh, but it requires real advocacy, not just here's how we win or here's how we make the school look good.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:33.440
Like it's just, it's, it's, it's harder.
00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:34.719
I'll I'll agree that it's harder.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:36.000
I don't think it's impossible though.
00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:46.559
I think there's really good programs, you know, across the world that don't do competitions or incredibly minimize it where it's one day of the year and still have reasonable support for their their programs.
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:48.480
So anyway, don't know that it's good.
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:49.840
That's why I keep setting timers for myself.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:50.719
No, it's great.
00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:51.199
It's great.
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:51.760
I love it.
00:49:51.920 --> 00:50:03.360
And uh do you think that uh let's use marching band uh for example, because I can go look up so-and-so's marching band from 2014 a lot easier than I can their their spring concert.
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:12.239
Um so I'm just looking at, you know, I was looking at our own programs in our own area, like, oh, you know, how how how are these guys back in the day, you know?
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:17.760
And and we always hear, and and uh so if I'm offending anybody, you know, I get that comment back in my day.
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:23.440
There was only one all-state band, but I'm like, have you heard the all-state bands these year, you know, this year?
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:26.320
Like they're incredible all the way down to the smallest one.
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.719
And uh, and all the cool things we're doing.
00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:35.199
Um, obviously, programs that I've been a part of have have grown and been successful, and that's not beating my own chest.
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:36.880
It's just that's my first hand knowledge.
00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:42.079
But I see a lot of programs that are bigger, that are better, well, you know, better quality.
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:47.679
Uh their shows are are they they're sounding much better, they're playing more difficult music.
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:49.679
They, you know, they've grown.
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:58.239
Um, and I think that, you know, I can't tell you for sure whether uh competition was a part of that, but I certainly think it has an influence.
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:00.079
It was definitely used as a tool.
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:04.559
And you and seeing these programs grow, that just means more kids are experiencing it.
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:10.480
And all these things that we're doing now with the the extra stuff, yes, we can definitely go too far.
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:24.400
Uh we don't do indoor drumline because I think my my staff would riot and probably our kids too, but some people use that as a really awesome tool to you know just expand their program and and involve more kids.
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:28.159
And um, I I really think competition has been a big part of that.
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.400
And I again, I don't know these programs personally.
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:31.840
I can't tell you for sure.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:38.880
Um, but I I I think just even 10 years ago, I know at the foray level that we're at, the the game has changed.
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:48.480
Uh, the quality, the musicianship, the the size of the programs has all seems to be better, again, my opinion, but that's that's what I tend to see.
00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:54.239
I I would think that's gonna depend very much on the school, you know.
00:51:54.559 --> 00:52:13.280
Um, and and also I would say the other thing that I think about a lot is, you know, if participating in band requires, you know, eight hours of work outside of school and you know, 25 or 30 weekends, you know, that's not how people make music outside of school.
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:18.480
Like nobody puts that much time into a music hobby, maybe into a music career, maybe into mute majoring in music.
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:28.800
But like, think about how, you know, when marching band was we rehearse during the day, you know, we've got an outside of school jazz band and we play the football games and that's it.
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:31.920
That was accessible to a lot more students, though.
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:33.039
You you see what I'm saying?
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:36.159
So I I mean, I it's gonna depend on where you're at.
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:38.639
There's places where program support is very strong.
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:43.039
You know, again, I'm seeing a very different thing here in inner city San Antonio.
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:47.440
You know, if you compare the programs to 40 or 50 years ago, a lot of them are a lot smaller.
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:49.840
So that's it's it's gonna depend on where you are.
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:53.280
And the competition system, I think, for a lot of these programs is not helping them.
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:53.599
Sure.
00:52:53.760 --> 00:53:05.920
You know, and there's really good directors doing really great work, but when all your kids are beginners in ninth grade and then out in the suburban district, they've got a very clear feeder system with consistent pedagogy from kindergarten through 12.
00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:08.400
Like it's just a completely different thing, you know.
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:17.360
So so would you say that the competition system is not helping them, or the competition system inherently caused it?
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:19.840
Oh, that's a great question.
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:26.320
I would say that it's holding them back, you know, because once again, it's a big career risk to take on one of these schools.
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:27.280
I mean I agree.
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:29.840
But uh, sorry Oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:30.800
What was the same cost?
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:31.519
I know.
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:32.719
Sorry, the the delay.
00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:34.800
No, you're gonna uh let me jump in real quick.
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:41.360
Uh um, I know several San Antonio uh band directors, and they're incredible in inner city San Antonio.
00:53:41.519 --> 00:53:44.000
Uh so I think that they do have good teachers.
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:46.880
Is that does that make it a more desirable location?
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:47.440
Definitely.
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:50.400
Like I I totally get that and agree with that point.
00:53:50.559 --> 00:54:00.320
Um, but I think that there's uh inherent problems in inner city schools and our education system more than a competition.
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:02.000
Competition is not helping them.
00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:02.960
I could agree with that.
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:05.039
I mean, I that's it's obviously not.
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:10.239
And um, but the I don't know that competition was the cause of that.
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.239
And I don't think that's what you're saying either, but that's that's was my question.
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:18.960
Yeah, well, I and again, I want to get all the way down to what competition is.
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:20.559
It's only the rating and the ranking.
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:23.360
Have you done musical events where you see lots of groups perform?
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:25.280
I can think of at least one that I know you did.
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:28.960
Uh, but have you gone where where people perform and they don't compete?
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:29.519
Yes.
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:30.000
Oh, yeah.
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:30.880
I'm going next week.
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:36.880
Do the kids walk away excited about what they're seeing and do they have a positive experience generally?
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:38.159
Um, I think so.
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:45.599
Um, I will say, uh in preparing for that, um, my kids are not as focused.
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:51.199
Um and I I don't know it will take full ownership if that's a reflection on me as a teacher.
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:55.920
Um, but I feel like they're not there, there's just a little bit of shine that's lost on that.
00:54:56.079 --> 00:55:01.199
And uh uh, but you know, they're also really want to do well and they want to perform.
00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:06.800
And so I know that as we get closer to it, you know, we're gonna we're gonna continue to polish it and they're gonna continue to work.
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:13.760
But there's just a little there's a little bit of edge taken off of it, I think, um, in in the in the kids' minds and in just the way they're working.
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:19.039
Uh, but we're still gonna have a great experience because I know we're gonna play well and I know that they're gonna feel proud of what they're doing.
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.320
So yeah, I mean, uh again, it's a tool.
00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:28.719
How how much of that do you think is the subtle influence over time that, oh, this isn't a competition, it doesn't count?
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:35.119
Like, because we we like there's an implicit suggestion of that that comes with there being competitions, right?
00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:39.599
Like the structure of a competition says this day, this performance is more important than all the others.
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:51.119
Whether you say that aloud or just indicate it, you know, through preparation or whatever else, or through the fact there's an award attached, it does elevate that above the other things that you're doing by the design.
00:55:51.280 --> 00:56:02.320
Do you think that, you know, by extension means that the reasons for making music, like, oh, well, we're just doing this because making music is awesome, that that doesn't ring as being as valuable if we do that?
00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:10.880
Because that that that's the that's the effect in the in the research, is that when you introduce extrinsic motivation, you actually minimize the intrinsic motivations for doing it.
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:13.199
I feel like you one can lead to the other.
00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:20.480
Um, I think we can use the intrinsic motivation because it does speak to a lot of different students, uh, at least in my opinion.
00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:27.920
And then we can use that to I, you know, I go to us and I I hate being fair, I hate playing graduation.
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.840
I'm not a ceremonial person.
00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:32.559
Uh, I do not enjoy graduation most of the time.
00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:39.599
I'm sad to see these kids leaving, and I I don't want to have to do a job when I want to celebrate, you know, these students.
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:57.039
Uh, but that being said, one of the things we talk to our kids about is not only about playing the very best that you can play, whether we're playing 20 minutes of pomp and circumstance, or we're playing some special music, or we're playing school song, um, we should always perform our best because that's that's what we teach here.
00:56:57.199 --> 00:57:00.079
That's, you know, you should always try your best at everything you do.
00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:03.760
You can go into lots of different discussions on reputation and whatnot.
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:08.320
But then also, this is one of the biggest audiences you're ever going to play for.
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:11.519
And this is the people that love you, that support you.
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:22.320
We're celebrating people who have been a part of this program, uh, been a part of our school, been a part of our community, you know, and so we put a lot of emphasis on why performing well is important.
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:26.079
And that rarely has to do with anything with competition.
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:29.119
Um, and I recently met with my new drum majors for next year.
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:34.880
And the first thing we talked about was well, our goals for next year, what what do we see us?
00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:35.920
How do we grow?
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:40.559
How do we become, as the way I put it, undeniable, not just better, but undeniable.
00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:45.920
Like everybody can see us perform and they see the joy and they see the music that we're making.
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:49.199
And one of the drum majors go, Well, I really want a medal at state.
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:50.079
And I said, That's great.
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:51.760
I'm glad that you want a meddle at state.
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:53.199
I want that for you.
00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:56.000
But let's think about what if we don't meddle at state?
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:57.679
How is next year going to be awesome?
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:08.159
And, you know, so I think we can, if we would put a tamper on the toxicity of it and use it more as a tool, which uh I know is what I always strive to do.
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:14.480
And I'm sure you'd you you would agree with that to at least some extent, that competition can be useful to a lot of different people.
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:17.840
Um, I think we just have different philosophies on what we're saying.
00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:21.199
Um, but tell me if I'm I'm incorrect in that.
00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:26.880
Oh, I well, that's why I wanted to open my argument with that competitions have benefits.
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:29.679
You know, that like there's there's a reason that we do them.
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:32.800
Um, I just think there's more authentic ways to get all those benefits.
00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:48.320
So again, you know, a kid who wants to win state marching contest is going to operate very differently than someone who, you know, really likes playing their instrument and thinks that the marching band environment, you know, being at the games is so fun and their mom was in it, so they want to do it too.
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:50.239
And that's their primary motivation.
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.360
That's such a better motivation than state marching contest.
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:59.119
Because let's let's be honest, you know, one one band per classification is going to win state marching contests.
00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:02.639
We created a system where you get second place at state marching contests.
00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:08.079
Let's say your band never even got a first division, and the next year you get second place at state marching contest.
00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:12.800
The newspaper at home is going to say band falls short at state marching contest.
00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:16.320
Like, you know, um I'm actually I don't agree with that.
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:18.079
I I don't think that would happen.
00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:32.719
I mean, that's a drastic example, of course, but I I I don't think that most people would say band falls short, or most newspapers or uh or most kids would not feel an immense amount of pride for that kind of accomplishment.
00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:35.199
And uh again, that is an extreme example.
00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:38.239
There you could make it a lot closer, make it much more difficult to defend.
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:39.280
Uh, and I appreciate that.
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:43.920
But uh, you know, I'll throw out kind of that example or circumstance.
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:53.039
Um, I saw a band that was a perennial uh gold medalist, and then one year they came in third place and the kids were crying in the parking lot.
00:59:53.199 --> 01:00:03.679
So if you see it in the opposite direction, then yeah, sometimes there is a little bit of toxicity in there, even though it was a really great program, because the kids put so much into it, you know.
01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:11.840
So I don't know if it's toxic or it's just they're on that emotional is that necessarily is that necessarily a bad thing though, to be Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
01:00:11.920 --> 01:00:14.719
Is it is it's so upset about it?
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:22.719
You know, you're almost saying like it's I I don't know this that that's what's so cool listening to you guys discuss this because it it is a cool debate.
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:31.119
Well, it it's one of those things where um you know again, that all that's artificial.
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:33.679
Like uh you know what everybody says about contests?
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.000
They go, the results don't matter, right?
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:38.719
Like that's how they try to push against the toxicity.
01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:42.159
And I would say that it you can't both say that and do it.
01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:44.320
Like you can't do it and not care about the results.
01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:47.360
Like again, it is there by design, you know.
01:00:47.519 --> 01:01:02.239
And I mean, do you remember the phenomenon with every other year state marching contest where there'd always be a drop in the senior class because kids couldn't go and that means they didn't like being in the band very much because it wasn't worth doing if there wasn't a contest to go to.
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:05.280
That to me is a crisis of meaning, you know?
01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:10.239
And I think there is an extent of that in every program, and it can be way worse.
01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:22.000
Like you, you can overemphasize, you can underemphasize, but I think as long as you participate in those structures, there is this implicit message in the design of how it works that what matters is us being better than other people.
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:26.320
And that's a big distraction from having this authentic meaning to the music making.
01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:27.679
And I've seen kids do both.
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:29.280
You know, Mike talked about the other stuff.
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:35.840
I the last gig I did, and this isn't a perfect parallel because it's not, it wasn't a marching band gig, but it was a music gig.
01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:39.119
We had no competitions, no required performances, no grades.
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:45.599
And I had to stay late every single day while every square inch of the band hall was full of people who wanted to play music together.
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:50.880
Like, you just I'm saying you don't need this stuff, and the costs are real, you know.
01:01:51.039 --> 01:01:53.039
Um, not that good stuff doesn't happen.
01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:55.519
I, when my kids were at state marching contest, they loved it.
01:01:55.599 --> 01:02:00.239
But as we were driving away, I saw this big banner a parent made it made that said, go win state.
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:06.800
And I knew from the second that I saw that banner that there was going to be some big disappointment because we didn't have the money to win state marching contest.
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:10.400
We uh we didn't have the type of show that would win state marching contest.
01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:15.519
And yeah, those kids worked hard and they put on a great show, but that was never going to be the case.
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:22.239
You know, even the worst football team, you can kind of hope that, you know, that one other team you're competing, everybody breaks their legs, you know.
01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:26.880
But with marching band, either you've got a show that's gonna do that and you've got the budget or you don't.
01:02:27.039 --> 01:02:32.320
So again, that's an extreme that we have in state marching contest, but I think you see similar things across it.
01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:37.199
So anyway, that's yeah, again, I don't know if that's helpful or uh no, I think it's great.
01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:39.039
And I think that's where we have some common ground.
01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:42.320
Uh I'm definitely more gross over placement, you know.
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:50.719
And I think if we if we allow that that kind of mindset to sneak in, you know, parents and community members are gonna want you to win, of course.
01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:56.719
But they're they're not but they're not gonna be devastated if you lose, you know, not parents and community members.
01:02:56.880 --> 01:03:00.960
Now, maybe that that perennial gold medalist, sure, but that's just a disappointment.
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:02.960
And you still learn something from that.
01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:06.559
I I think you know, the there's over it pretty quick, by the way.
01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:10.400
Right, exactly, because kids are resilient, probably faster than the adults did.
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:17.519
Yeah, you know, and uh, and so uh the goal is not to win at all costs, it's it's to pursue excellence with a purpose.
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:23.360
And uh, and so I I think there's there's just such a way that you can have your cake and eat it too.
01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:25.840
And it's something I strive for every day in our band hall.
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:31.280
And I really hope that a lot of directors are doing, and I believe they are because I see it in their programs.
01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:41.599
And um, and I think I can take the the small group that's overdoing it and set them aside, and it's a much smaller group than the ones who are not.
01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:52.880
And just some obviously, again, my opinion, but man, there's there's some really, really great programs out there that uh are doing a lot of awesome things, and winning, say, marching contests is not one of them.
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:56.239
Can I can I jump in just real quick?
01:03:56.800 --> 01:03:58.719
I've loved listening to this.
01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:14.000
I have one question, and I hope it's not I hope it's not a powder kick, but I've talked to Mike before about one of his groups that they didn't accomplish necessarily what they set out to do, they got upset in the moment, and then they were like, okay, where's the pizza?
01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:14.800
Yeah.
01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:23.760
And the memory was uh hanging out with their friends and doing stuff after the competition as much as it was uh you know going to the competition.
01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:44.639
Uh having said that, if we can agree, and I've heard Steven say this before, I've adopted it as something I like to say, if the student is the product, if the end goal for all of us as educators, if the student is the product, how much do you think competition is more about the director or about the educator?
01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:54.800
How much is the competition become so we can talk to our peers as opposed to if the kids get over it that fast?
01:04:55.760 --> 01:05:05.840
I'm not advocating it for or against because I grew up in competition and I I'm one of those people that feels like you know, real life involves some competition, whether we call it that or not.
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:08.880
Um but do you understand my question?
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:10.719
And I'm not trying to step on any toes.
01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:36.079
Have we created a system that the competition is more to uh to and and I think I was so glad to hear you all talk about maybe that rubric, maybe some of this is set up so a person like me who comes out of college with a lot of education but no real ear for balance and blend and that stuff, we have things that we can point to to say this is how our group could get better.
01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:45.199
But I don't think that a lot of the kids go to see other kids and go, Yeah, we gotta one.
01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:50.000
Or, you know, they don't value themselves in that.
01:05:50.239 --> 01:05:54.719
Maybe that's not clear enough, but I think that educators sometimes do.
01:05:55.360 --> 01:05:59.280
And I I'd like to give our students and our fellow band directors a lot more credit.
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:09.039
Uh Because I don't think that it's a problem statewide and it's ingrained in every single bandhole throughout the state.
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:13.840
I think it's a it's in the much of the minority where we're going overly competitive.
01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:16.480
Um, again, using it as a tool.
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:18.239
Um, and is it fun to win?
01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:19.440
Of course it's fun to win.
01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:22.719
Uh, but cow, I've had some great seasons where we didn't win a thing.
01:06:22.880 --> 01:06:24.719
And just the kids had fun together.
01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:33.199
And uh, and I'm I tell the kids all the time, I'm not in the business of creating more band directors and really not even in the business of creating more musicians.
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:35.760
I want to create good people and good citizens.
01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:39.440
And um, and and I see that a lot in our kids.
01:06:39.519 --> 01:06:44.719
Uh, one of the things that I uh this has nothing to do with Steven's point because I know he'll agree with me.
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:52.079
Um, you know, I tell the kids, you know, you always have these people, kids these days just don't know how to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
01:06:52.159 --> 01:06:54.400
And I'm like, kids these days are incredible.
01:06:54.639 --> 01:07:02.800
You have no idea the knowledge, the wisdom, the the pure talent that they just ooze out of their pores.
01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:06.559
And our future is going to be bright because they're doing such incredible things.
01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:10.239
But because you keep watching the news, you think education is failing.
01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:16.239
Uh, and you know, it's it they're doing such awesome things, and and our band directors are doing such awesome things.
01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:18.719
So I just I just want to give them some credit on that.
01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:28.960
Um, we can we can poke fun at the people who take it too far, and and and that is detriment to them and their kids, but that you're gonna have that in any profession, I think, in any system.
01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:30.480
Um, so anyway.
01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:36.000
Yeah, I I uh I I like we agree on so many things.
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:40.000
And I've been in your band hall before, and all your kids are so happy, you know.
01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:45.119
Like uh I and and again, there's so many things about what we do, even in marching band.
01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:46.880
And when I was a kid, I I did marching band.
01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:48.079
I wasn't a marching band kid.
01:07:48.159 --> 01:07:49.280
That wasn't my thing, right?
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:53.280
Um, and as a director, I'm like, well, if we're doing it, we're gonna do it really well, you know?
01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:55.599
Uh like definitely that type of personality.
01:07:55.840 --> 01:08:05.760
But um, you know, there's a lot of things that appeal to a lot of kids about making music, about getting together, about going to football games, about playing cool songs, about doing neat marching shows.
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:09.360
There's a lot of things that appeal to a lot of people about those things.
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:25.520
And what I would say is what happened to me was the more I got into an understanding about, you know, just meaning and motivation and why we do things, the more I found extrinsic motivators, not just competitions, but anything to being something that I didn't really want to do anymore.
01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:36.640
And I would say that if you are a band director in Texas, it is way harder to be respected and to do what you're supposed to do if you believe that, than if you're all in on contest.
01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:42.960
So we have a system that doesn't really leave a lot of room for people to practice the point of view that I'm sharing.
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:54.880
And I think that is a systematic problem, which is again why I would advocate for our systems to allow people to get feedback, to get the support that they need without needing to have their groups rated and ranked.
01:08:55.039 --> 01:08:58.399
You know, um, they're outside of music education.
01:08:58.560 --> 01:09:03.119
If you talk about music being a competition, nobody understands what you're talking about.
01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:08.960
You know, yeah, there's like some concerto contests and things for classical musicians, but they're coming out of school music.
01:09:09.119 --> 01:09:13.359
You know, like that's just not what music is for outside of school, period.
01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:21.279
Like if your central motivation for doing music is competitions and you leave school, you're very likely not to make music anymore.
01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:22.079
And you can have both.
01:09:22.159 --> 01:09:24.880
You can like competitions and also really enjoy playing your instrument.
01:09:25.039 --> 01:09:27.760
I think a lot of us uh who are in the profession have done that.
01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:32.640
There's also a lot of kids that love music but hate that environment and they're not in our data.
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:40.399
They dropped out, you know, the first time they had to do a playing test or a chair test or when they had a bad result at all region and they never touched an instrument again.
01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:46.000
And if that was because they were put in a situation through competition, that doesn't reflect real life at all.
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:53.439
So my I guess my big conclusion is I know a lot of people do competitions and really value it and see benefits.
01:09:53.600 --> 01:09:59.279
Like I said, there are some, but I would argue that there's a lot of ways to make music without competitions.
01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:02.880
There's ways to do band, marching band, all these things without competition.
01:10:03.039 --> 01:10:07.520
And you can get pretty much all of those benefits in other types of ways.
01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:16.319
Um, and I would love to see that be a more systematically available possibility for programs that feel that same way.
01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:19.279
Yeah.
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:23.039
Hey, I was gonna ask for closing statements, but I think y'all just did it.
01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:25.199
Well, and that was awesome.
01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:30.640
If I'll throw in one more thing, um, and and not to not to draw back into a debate.
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:31.600
Uh no, no, you're good.
01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:31.920
You're good.
01:10:32.079 --> 01:10:34.159
I kind of had a pre-planned like closing momentum.
01:10:34.239 --> 01:10:37.119
Uh so anyway, wrap it wrapping up the conversation.
01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:41.840
If you practiced, and you know, I have to declare the finger because this is I definitely didn't practice.
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:42.479
I don't know.
01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:45.520
It's not a competition, though.
01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:53.199
You know, um, no, uh, so you know, for what, for what it's worth, um, I think it's a great conversation to have.
01:10:53.359 --> 01:10:55.119
And why why should we have it?
01:10:55.279 --> 01:11:01.199
Because ultimately it's about our students and about what we're offering not only our students, but what we're offering society.
01:11:01.279 --> 01:11:09.199
We're putting hundreds, if not thousands, of kids into the world um with a with a love or disdain for music uh or and everywhere in between.
01:11:09.359 --> 01:11:14.640
So I you know, I just feel like life is competitive and uh there's just so much that it can teach you.
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:16.159
And is it speak to everybody?
01:11:16.239 --> 01:11:17.359
No, it definitely doesn't.
01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:22.560
But when used intentionally and responsibly, uh, I feel like it's a very effective tool.
01:11:22.720 --> 01:11:24.479
And that's what it needs to be as a tool.
01:11:24.560 --> 01:11:27.680
It doesn't need to be the ultimate uh objective.
01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:31.439
Um, none is none of this to say is competition is perfect, of course.
01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:43.520
We've we've gone through that, but at its best, competition, of course, is not about trophies, but it's about striving for that excellence and seeing where that next step is, um, working on a common goal and discovering what you're capable of.
01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:51.600
And it just gives you that check mark, it gives you that data point, and uh, and people look up ratings because that's easy to do.
01:11:51.760 --> 01:12:03.760
And um, but I know I know tons of people to who don't get those ratings that somebody that's so-called successful, but they're very successful and they're also really respected.
01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:05.920
Is it harder for them to be seen in that light?
01:12:06.079 --> 01:12:06.479
Absolutely.
01:12:06.560 --> 01:12:09.840
Isn't it and is it harder for them to get the the better job?
01:12:10.079 --> 01:12:10.960
Absolutely.
01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:17.199
Um, but I know a bunch of people who love and respect them and who know that they're just doing such good work.
01:12:17.359 --> 01:12:31.279
Um, and so I I just want to give us a little bit more credit on that as a society that that that is definitely happening um in the walls of many, many band halls and in orchestra halls and choir halls throughout um not only our state, but throughout the country, I'm sure.
01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:37.680
Um, so whether the question, sorry, the question isn't really whether competition belongs in music education.
01:12:37.920 --> 01:12:43.199
It's whether you're willing to use it uh in the way that benefits your own students, because that's what we're all about.
01:12:43.359 --> 01:12:50.479
Uh when we do that, I feel like the impact is is a huge net gain and positive for our students.
01:12:50.720 --> 01:12:54.800
Um, it doesn't take away from music education, it can help it to thrive.
01:12:54.960 --> 01:12:57.119
Of course, it has to be used responsibly.
01:12:57.520 --> 01:12:59.760
Steven, closing statement, sir.
01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:06.479
Yeah, I don't think that the world, society, and everything is inherently competitive.
01:13:06.640 --> 01:13:14.800
I would argue that in most situations, if I'm having a conversation at dinner and other people are trying to conversation better than me, that's unpleasant.
01:13:14.960 --> 01:13:20.000
If I'm working with someone and their goal is to one up me and do everything better than me, that's pretty unpleasant.
01:13:20.159 --> 01:13:32.239
You know, um, there are certain capitalistic goals between companies that might lead to competition, but I would not argue that that has made society as a whole a whole lot better, that the competitive element is what happens.
01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:40.479
You know, I think a lot of times we would have met a lot of goals we have as people, as society better had we been more willing to work together.
01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:45.199
So uh I again see this as being a big, a big thing, you know.
01:13:45.279 --> 01:13:48.880
Um, I don't think kids have to learn about competition through school music.
01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:53.039
I think, you know, they can they can learn about competition through life.
01:13:53.279 --> 01:14:01.439
But again, very seldomly as an adult musician, in fact, never outside of school has it been a competition a single time that I can think of.
01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:06.479
If I get on the bandstand with someone and we're jamming and it turns into a competition, it's bad music.
01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:10.720
Where, you know, my job oftentimes is to support and to uplift.
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:15.359
And I think there's so much value in music that we we don't need the other stuff.
01:14:15.439 --> 01:14:16.720
Like we just don't need it.
01:14:16.880 --> 01:14:21.600
Um, and so for me personally, that's the uh that's the way that I advocate.
01:14:21.680 --> 01:14:22.800
I think it's valuable.
01:14:22.960 --> 01:14:24.079
I think it's huge.
01:14:24.239 --> 01:14:31.680
You know, I think that if I have a goal and I care about it and I want excellence, that that's a good reason to work for it.
01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:35.600
And the fact that I might get a bad rating is a bad reason to work for excellence.
01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:36.880
And that's what I want for my kids.
01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:40.079
I want those lasting long term when the competition is over.
01:14:40.239 --> 01:14:42.000
The goal was to be good, just to be good.
01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:53.840
And I don't feel like, as a classroom teacher, that the perceived success of my students or my program should ever have been dependent on the perceived success or failure of any other school anywhere else.
01:14:54.079 --> 01:15:00.319
Um, and I agree that there are people that are doing amazing work and are never gonna get the ratings and rankings they deserve.
01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:04.399
And I think that's an indictment of how the system doesn't work for everybody.
01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:09.439
Um and also, you know, gosh, isn't life hard?
01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:15.600
You know, isn't it hard to go through all these things and have to figure out values and how to compensate?
01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:20.640
And I'm gonna be completely honest, in my marching band gig, I never got completely away from competition.
01:15:20.800 --> 01:15:22.880
Had I stuck it out at the same place, I might have.
01:15:23.039 --> 01:15:28.560
I had to move outside a marching band before I could convince myself to feel safe enough to completely let it go.
01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:30.800
And again, I think that I think that says something.
01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:38.960
If the idea, it's easier to, you know, see music education in Texas coming to an end than for us not to center it around competition.
01:15:39.119 --> 01:15:41.920
You know, it's been said before, and I think a lot of people feel that way.
01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:48.479
It's hard to imagine doing this just for education and nourishment and and growth and not needing those other carrots.
01:15:48.720 --> 01:15:52.000
But um, man, it's a fun topic to talk about.
01:15:52.079 --> 01:15:54.800
And a lot of people do it because again, we're we're kind of unique in Texas.
01:15:54.880 --> 01:16:00.880
We are at an extreme where even if you do competition just a little bit in Texas, you're doing it more than a lot of other places.
01:16:01.039 --> 01:16:04.880
Um, so it's good to good to talk about it here with my friends.
01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:05.840
Absolutely.
01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:14.319
And I tell you what, guys, it's uh, you know, it's so nice to hear such a professional conversation about something that could be a powder keg issue.
01:16:14.479 --> 01:16:26.720
And I found from uh seeing people from other parts of the nation that in a lot of times in Texas, we teach uh performance, which inherently becomes competition, uh, instead of teaching music.
01:16:28.800 --> 01:16:30.000
Think about that for a second.
01:16:30.239 --> 01:16:31.760
That's a different perspective on it.
01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:34.640
But you know, as in every debate, there's gonna be a winner.
01:16:35.119 --> 01:16:36.720
And I'm gonna declare the winner.
01:16:36.880 --> 01:16:37.760
The winner is me.
01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:39.199
I'm gonna say Mike.
01:16:40.159 --> 01:16:45.199
I I'm the winner because I got to hear some of absolutely incredible conversation from you guys.
01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:48.479
And the real winner is gonna be our listeners and even Derek.
01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:50.319
Okay, so I'm gonna turn this over to Derek.
01:16:52.399 --> 01:16:58.399
Derek, uh, this is probably the least I've ever talked in one of our episodes.
01:16:58.640 --> 01:17:00.399
And it's been fantastic.
01:17:04.399 --> 01:17:06.720
Just blessing with you, my I love you, Derek.
01:17:06.960 --> 01:17:09.359
Have you learned nothing from this conversation about competition?
01:17:09.680 --> 01:17:14.640
It's not about so, gentlemen, I just want to thank you both.
01:17:14.800 --> 01:17:21.119
Uh I thank you both for uh for for the pulpit that you stand in and that you stand for.
01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:26.800
And again, that we can do this because you're both great people.
01:17:27.119 --> 01:17:28.560
And Mike's okay.
01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:32.159
So I I appreciate y'all coming on.
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:54.000
I I I just hope that we can uh uh have this conversation uh uh maybe again at some point, and uh just help everybody understand that uh it's okay to have an opinion, but it's also so great to hear another one and to be able to converse about it.
01:17:54.159 --> 01:17:56.000
I think that's lost in society.
01:17:56.079 --> 01:17:59.840
That's my bandstand I preach on civility is a lost art.
01:18:00.399 --> 01:18:02.880
So uh thank you for being civil.
01:18:03.600 --> 01:18:06.960
And I hope that hey, listen, Mike, I'm gonna throw this out there too.
01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:12.159
If anybody else has something they want to add to this conversation, please let us know.
01:18:12.319 --> 01:18:16.319
I'd love to hear feedback from this and we can share that.
01:18:16.479 --> 01:18:21.520
And uh and we all appreciate uh learning.
01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:23.520
I think that we would all agree with that.
01:18:23.600 --> 01:18:25.680
We're all open to being educated.
01:18:25.840 --> 01:18:27.439
So thanks, guys.
01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:28.880
I don't know any other way to say it.
01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:30.319
I hope you have a wonderful week.
01:18:30.479 --> 01:18:37.359
I hope that you're getting ready for uh whatever your uh post-school months look like.
01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:39.840
Uh I don't know that you get those anymore, Steven.
01:18:40.079 --> 01:18:41.760
You're probably Stephen really.
01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:43.600
12 months all the time.
01:18:43.840 --> 01:18:49.119
But um y'all be great, be safe, and please be successful.
01:18:49.359 --> 01:18:52.720
And I I just hope you get the greatest reward out of what you do.
01:18:52.800 --> 01:18:53.520
So thanks again.
01:18:54.000 --> 01:18:54.800
Right back at you.
01:18:54.880 --> 01:18:55.520
Thank you for having us.
01:18:56.159 --> 01:18:56.479
You bet.
01:18:56.960 --> 01:18:57.359
Thank you guys.
01:18:57.920 --> 01:18:58.319
Love you guys.
