Alan Joyce

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Welcome to Iron Island Disc, a podcast series where we talk to Irish people from different walks of life as they reflect on their own journeys.
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Join me, Roxanne McDermott, as we explore the many aspects of Irish Disney and what it means to each of our guests through life's ups and downs.
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Alan Joyce, welcome to Iron Island Discs.
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Thanks, Rossi.
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It's good to talk to you.
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Now, the first question is a tricky one, as we always say.
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Have you been to the Iron Islands and what's your what was your experience?
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If you have.
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Yeah, I I have Rosset.
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I've been there probably four times.
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And usually it's when we have Australian friends that were showing around Ireland.
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We don't do get until the last minute because going over on the ferry it can be a bit rough if the seas are rough.
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So we wait to see what the weather looks like and if it's looking like it's a good day.
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And the last two times have just been amazing.
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Uh the Atlantic Ocean, go to Innismoor, the Atlantic Ocean has been like uh a lake.
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It's been crazy.
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So we pick perfect weather.
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And then the Aussies absolutely love it.
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They they love going around the island, loves speaking to the people, and the people over there are just unbelievably engaging.
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It is magic, isn't it?
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On a good day.
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Now, on a windy day, the wind will go through you.
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It's not the same welcome.
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It's not the same welcome.
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That's why we only take Aussies over there when it's good weather, and they think, oh, this is the best place in the world.
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The food is usually good.
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We go to one of the little poems, have a Guinness and steak um stew usually there, and that goes down really well.
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And uh and a point again is for the local pub.
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So it's the perfect, perfect set destination for an Aussie.
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And now with the banshees of Innis Moore, it was the Inish fair.
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Yeah, that movie.
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Everybody thinks that it's uh a great place they want to go to because they know from the movie.
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And actually, some of the scenes of film and echo.
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Alan, how would you describe yourself?
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If you met somebody in the elevator, are you a businessman or where are you?
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In your immigration form, yeah.
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Yeah, I'd say if I met somebody, I'd say I was a business, I'm a businessman.
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I would say I'm Irish.
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I'll describe myself as Irish, probably before anything else.
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Businessman, airline, former airline executive.
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That's probably what I would say.
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And maybe now that I've written a book, I can use the term author as well.
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Yeah.
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Was the book cathartic?
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It was.
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It was a great experience, but also an amazingly uplifting experience.
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You know, Ross, I spoke to my mother about her life, and I interviewed her for six hours, and she um she told me stories I didn't know about, about the family, the poor upgrading that she had, you know, the fact that she was fed her her siblings from soup kitchens because they couldn't afford meals, the poverty that they lived in, and my dad lived in.
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And my only regret was I never interviewed my dad.
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And then I think going back over all the things that happened over my life, there were some amazingly funny stories that my editor said she couldn't stop laughing at.
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And there were some amazingly tense stories like having an engine blowing up on the A380, and then having to decide to ground those aircraft, wait only minutes before other aircraft were taken off, and the tension around that decision that brought it all back to me because I kept the press clippings of everything that occurred over the 20 years as CEO, and coming back over those moments and reading the press about what was happening really brought back the tension and the experience.
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So it was a great way of reliving it.
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But the last time I wanted to relive it.
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How old is Collette now?
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Mid-90s.
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I know in her mid-80s now.
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So she's um she hasn't gone through the best of health in the last few years.
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She's in good form now.
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You know, we I went back for my 60th birthday, that's why we went around Ireland.
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Yeah.
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And she was in good form for those couple of weeks.
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So that was actually really good to see that.
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And your father worked at what, Benz and the Hedges, amongst other things?
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Yeah, my father, yeah.
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My father had three jobs um at one stage.
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Then he was in Glacier, he worked in a telephone exchange, and he worked as a postman, and then got a job in Gallagher's tobacco factory in Talle.
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And that job, I think, paid as much as the other jobs put together, and that allowed him to get a deposit to buy a house in Talle.
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That changed probably the family.
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He I think he nearly begged for the job.
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And when he got it, he was relieved.
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People forget what an opportunity that was to get the new houses in Talla and relocate and start life out of where you'd grown up.
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Yes, Sporon Ross said, you know, that we lived in St.
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Michael's Estate Incorporation flats, and we lived in the Liberties with my dad's parents on Nicholas Street in a in a little flat there, sharing it with the grandparents for a while.
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It allowed them to have a house, and it was a little terrace house.
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My mom still lives in the same house, she won't know of.
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I've offered to buy her a bigger house a few times, but she loves the community.
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And anytime I'm back there, again, I was back there a few weeks ago.
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All the neighbors, you chat to them, you know, you can't get very far up the street because there's all the neighbors are sitting out.
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You've known them since you were a little kid.
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The same people are there, and it's a great community, and you never would give her up.
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Yeah.
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No, my granny grew up in Eastwall, it's the same.
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There's a center of community, the houses, they work, help each other.
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I get your feeling.
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And do they say you have a nausea accent now, do you, when you when you come back?
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They do.
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Some people now pick up, and pick up that literally this year is um half and half for me.
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I was 30 years in Ireland living there, right?
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And now I'm at 60, I'm 30 years living in Australia.
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So some people say I've picked up the inflection.
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So when Aussies say sentences like they're questions, yeah, correct.
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At the very end of it, that's that inflection, which I think I have picked up.
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Yeah.
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And then definitely, when I'm talking to an Irish person, I speed up, but when I'm speaking here, I definitely have slowed down.
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You can't speak with your yeah, you can't speak with your full double accent really fast.
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That's not a coward.
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Yeah.
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And going to Australia was always on your mind early on.
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No, it wasn't.
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But you want to leave Ireland or you you want to seek other opportunities?
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Because in listening to your book, I didn't know Mick O'Deary interviewed you.
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I knew you went to the States and doing well with Ernest, and suddenly you were doing well and you decided to go off to Australia.
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Was that a personal choice for your own personal choice?
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It was.
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But that was very possibly you're a very sensible man at that age, to be an understanding of the case.
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Yeah, well, I was I was um well, I was obviously I'm gay, and um at the time homosexuality had just been decriminalized in Ireland.
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I didn't feel like it was a good place to be open at work.
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And then I saw on the TV how accepting Australia was with Marty Grant and the Sydney Festival, and thought, yeah, it would be great.
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And so when a head hunter came to me for an Ansett, based in Melbourne, I thought this would be a lifestyle decision rather than a work decision.
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It turned out to be good for bold.
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But I made really a lateral move to move from Ireland to the job in Ansett, but it was a life-changing experience.
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It's where I met my future husband in Melbourne, is where I could be more open as to who I was.
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And you know, then things flipped on its head because years later, when we were helping with the marriage equality campaign here in Australia, Ireland got it before Australia did.
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And Ireland had an openly gay prime minister before Australia has.
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So, you know, you think things could change very rapidly.
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In Ireland, I was very proud of Ireland when it was the first country in the world to vote marriage equality with a vote.
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And then it gave a good example to Australia what they needed to do.
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Yeah.
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And when you were when you started out in Trinity, your business degree in Trinity, you're obviously maths-driven.
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Everything in the book shows you're analytical.
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Was aviation something that really caught your mind as a kid, or was it just an accident in nature?
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You saw that ad in the paper?
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It was an accident in nature to see the ad.
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And I actually had never been on an aircraft.
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My family couldn't afford to fly.
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So the first I had no interest in aviation.
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But then I saw an ad for an operations research analyst, which is in the branch of mathematics.
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That was the branch when I did my master's degree in.
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And I thought, oh, perfect.
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That's a great job.
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Uh, it will work for me.
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Applied for the job, got a job in the airline in Airlines.
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Um, then got on my first flight, really spoiled from day one, Rossett, because in when you're an airline of a fly, yeah.
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My first flight was Dublin to Chicago in business class on Airlines, going to a business, going to a business meeting in Chicago.
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Um, so it was uh it was a crazy thing.
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And I I got on board the aircraft thinking, oh, this is going to be real fun, really exciting.
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And after half an hour, I was thinking, this is as boring as hell.
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Because they had those, the old 747s that had the projection, remember the projection of the one.
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The cabin wall, yeah.
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And I saw the I saw the movie in the cinema, so I think this is really boring.
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So from then onwards, I always brought a book to read on an aircraft just in case.
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Yeah, those old ID 90s where you flew for 10% of the full bear on business class, those were the days.
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Yes, they were the days.
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Absolutely.
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So, and then when you got into the scheduling with Erlingus, you really took to it, didn't you?
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Like your mind is mathematical, you love the scheduling, the whole challenge of making things happen on a sheet of paper.
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Yeah.
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Well, Erlingus was an unbelievably good company to work for, Rosie, because they they moved you around a bit, you got opportunities to move to different roles.
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So I started in operations research, and that was building mathematical models, like overbooking an aircraft that's selling more seats, which is a bit of a science than there are on the aircraft because people uh book seats and don't show up.
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And the airline has the most perishable product in the world.
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When an aircraft takes off with an empty seat, that's gone forever.
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So airlines overbook, and we had to develop a mathematical model to do that.
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There was also one of the models was estimating the number of spared engines you need for a 737 fleet, was another project I worked on.
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And then got the job working in fleet planning, which is actually buying aircraft.
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What's the right aircraft?
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What is an Airbus sort of Boeing?
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How many do you need?
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What's the range you need for the aircraft?
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What's the freight cap capability?
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So that gave you the background in aircraft, which was amazing.
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And then Aerlingus, then I moved on to network planning, market planning, which is planning which routes you operate on and doing the business cases by those routes, frequency on those routes.
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Um, and so it was an amazing experience in Aerlingus.
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And you look at the people that were there when I was there, Willie Walsh.
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Yeah, you know, he was in Aerlingus, he went on to run IAG.
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He was up front though.
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He was flying everybody.
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He was, and but then he went to work on I think Futura, the Spanish Airliner for a while.
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And then um Connor McCarthy, who helped set up Air Asia, yeah, now runs Dublin Airspace and Emerald Airlines.
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But Connor helped me set up Jet Star years later, was my boss, unbelievably capable guy.
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And of course, Tony Ryan, who set up Ryanair, worked there and got his experience in aviation.
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So it was you know something to be really proud of because a lot of people in world aviation had an amazing foundation in airling us, and that gave you that strength uh because they trained you so well and they gave you uh such great experience in different areas.
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Yeah.
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And did you was math your thing in St.
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Mark's Community School from an early stage?
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It was.
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I had a great mentor and a a teacher, Miss Murray Artie, who saw this little kid, was what she thought was good at maths, and she nurtured that, encouraged that.
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And in the book I talk about over the years, all the different mentors I was like lucky to have.
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The teachers can make a big difference, and she did.
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Man, I was pretty good at maths and then physics a bit later, and that really encouraged the spark in those areas, which which really started my career.
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And you were the oldest and the first in your family to go to college, weren't you?
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Yes.
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So I was the first actually to finish secondary school.
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Both of my parents left, yeah, when they were 12, 12, 13, I think.
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My dad was, and both of them couldn't finish.
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Yeah, both of them had the passion for education.
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And so most people say they're the first to finish tertiary education, but I was the first to finish secondary education and then went on to do a degree and a master's degree.
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And my brother Anthony, the next, he became an actuary, which he needed a first class degree in mathematics, which is really hard.
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I didn't get that.
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So he was unbelievably good at mathematics to become an actuary in seven more years of studying.
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Then Morris the third brother, he became a director of animation for Disney for MTV.
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And he's done a big TV series for Apple recently called My Brother Diminator, which is playing on Apple TV.
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Big project that he worked on, and he became unbelievably creative.
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And then the youngest, Paul, he's a graphic designer.
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So I I jokingly say that two of us had good left brains, two of us had good right brains.
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So between the four of us, there's two good brains there.
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Yeah, I was gonna say, uh at least, somebody has a as a non-mathematical stuff to have some kind of uh creative.
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And when you get together, it must be a huge story when you look back on your achievements and how you you must have always pushed each other unknowingly for achievement, you setting the pace.
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We did.
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We were very competitive.
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I say in the view that you know, I really I really believe that we had a fifth brother called competition, you know, that just encouraged us all to do it.
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I remember one thing, and I gave up on it.
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Um keep the ups, you know, those things you do with the ball to keep her up in soccer.
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He just became fanatical about it and got into the thousands.
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I think I gave up after a hundred because I thought I'm never gonna win this one.
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But we were competitive at tennis, we'd even did cricket.
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You know, I'm not a big cricket fan, but we did cricket in the backyard, tennis, soccer, obviously.
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Um and then um, and then the the brothers, we all started doing karate at the same time, and I had to leave to do the leaving cert and study for the leaving cert.
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So I took a break to do that.
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And when I came back, they had progressed on like four belts.
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Six belt, yeah.
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Yeah, and so I I said, I'm not having my little brothers beating me up a karate.
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So I get I gave her up to my absolute regret, because um the three of them became black belts, and one Morris even, I think, competed for Ireland, so they were really good at it, but that was something I always regret never completing.
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Yeah.
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And how old were you when you lost your father?
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Oh, that was only a few years ago.
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That was in like 2017.
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So they saw the progress you made in going to Australia.
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Yes.
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Yes, and he saw he came down, they came down like every year or thereabouts, and he was he was there when I was running Jet Start.
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He was down when I was CEO of Wantas, and so he was in my office in in mascot, sitting in my chair, because in the boardroom, took pictures there.
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You can imagine he was showing all the neighbors and all the family pictures of the big boardroom with him sitting there, so it was really cool.
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Yeah.
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And what does Irishness mean to you, Alan?
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I think Irishness for me is resilience, is storytelling, and it's a key part of who I am.
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So I think I would always regard myself I'm both Australian and Irish, but somebody asked, I would say Irish first.
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And so it's a key part of my being, I think, and who I am and who I was, how I grew up.
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:43.360
And I think that resilience, you know, I look back, and when you read the story about my parents, you read the story about how they grew up, what they had to cope with, you you feel that those stories are part of who we are.
00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:54.000
And while Ireland's now going through good times, I think that resilience is a nationwide trait, which I hope I have and still have and still focus on.
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:59.600
But you must, given you where you came from, which you're proud of and what you achieved.
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:14.480
Like resilience is not a narrative made up for you, it's a true living thing because where you've got to in the end and looking back must really give you uh now they can distill it all, give you a huge feeling of achievement.
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:15.839
It does, Ross.
00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:22.000
I think I'd look back on uh and I, you know, you look at and writing the book was really good in doing this.
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:27.200
I think a lot of Irish people are glass half full generally.
00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:38.160
And when you look back at all this stuff you've done, the stuff that hasn't worked, the stuff that didn't work, you always take satisfaction out of the major achievements that you achieved.
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:43.519
I look back on and I think, you know, Jet Star, we set up an airline from scratch.
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:49.359
Probably the same, it's the same achievement Tony Ryan and Michael O'Leary have with Ryan there.
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.559
It's the dominant low-cost carrier here in Australia.
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:58.079
And, you know, I tell in the book how we picked a name, and we think we had nothing at the start.
00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:13.440
And then this airline has carried hundreds of millions of passengers, democratized air travel, allowed families to travel like my family that couldn't travel by air, without grandparents and me, grandkids multiple times a year where they couldn't travel before.
00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:15.200
And you think, yeah, we did that.
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:16.559
That is something else.
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:27.119
Then I look at things like Project Sunrise in Qantas, which is now that aircraft that's going to fly non-stop from London to Sydney next year, hopefully.
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:28.400
And we did that.
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:30.480
That's that's some achievement.
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.759
The head of Airbus said that's the moonshot in aviation.
00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:39.519
And you think, yeah, route us being there, or me and the team being there doing that, that never would have happened.
00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:41.599
And they're major achievements.
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:52.160
And then on the personal side, the fight for marriage equality here, we pay me and my husband played a very big role in that, which was really good for the LGBTI community.
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:54.079
And I'm very proud of what we achieved there.
00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:06.880
So you look at the big successes, but at the same time, you look at the things you didn't get right, and you say, Well, at least we tried, we did something, and we failed sometimes, but we succeeded more times than we failed.
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:16.559
Yeah, but then that's what I thought of the Teddy Roosevelt quote that you always use, which is you know, if you don't you know the Roosevelt quote, you always heard uh that keeps it.
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:17.440
I love that quote.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:17.920
Yeah.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:27.599
Yeah, that quote, that quote is an amazing quote because Teddy Roosevelt said, at the point of decision making, the best thing you can do is the right thing.
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:32.240
The next best thing you could do is the wrong thing, the worst thing you can do is nothing.
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:32.640
Right.
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:43.839
And I always live my life like that because a lot of people, when they get into the big jobs, they play it safe, don't make a decision, get into analysis, paralysis, don't make a call.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:46.640
And that turns out to be the worst thing you could do.
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.920
Always try, make a call.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:54.799
You usually get it right, and when you don't, it's it's still better than not doing anything.
00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:56.880
And a lot of people get caught in that trap.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.240
But it's a great vote.
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:08.640
And I've always said to young executives, young leaders, people in business, that's what you should live your life like, because it does make a huge difference, and you will always never regret trying.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:18.640
Yeah, I think the worst thing, as you say, that I live by, the worst thing you can do is not make a decision because that has a cost that you can't even calculate sometimes.
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:19.279
Yes.
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:19.839
You know?
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:28.720
It got cut out of the book, but there was a great Beckett quote as well, which I think was meant to be a lot more dark, but used in Silicon Valley all the time.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:34.559
Ever tried, ever failed, no more, try again, fail again, fail better.
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:36.160
He meant a lot darker.
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:44.400
People use it as inspiration now to keep on going, and and failures you learn a lot from, and you can build success on it.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.559
But it's another great Irish quote that I think talks to the same team.
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:49.440
Yeah.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.880
And was the QF-92 from Singapore your biggest uh professional challenge in dealing with the afternoon?
00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:12.559
Yeah, well, that was that that was one that had a a different impact on you because when you're and you've talked to a number of airline CEOs, or I'll say they they'd say the biggest nightmare for you to ever have is an accident where people lose their lives.
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:22.319
A QF-32 was an A380, a very relatively young A380, hadn't gone through a major check yet.
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:24.640
We have Rolls-Rice engines on it.
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.319
Out of Singapore, one of the engines exploded.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.880
The shrapnel from the engine went through the fuselage of the aircraft.
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:36.880
Was lucky it didn't kill anybody in the aircraft.
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:45.279
The engine uh cut out, the engine failure cut out a load of systems on the aircraft, wires to the cockpit.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.519
And the pilots had limited systems with major errors that were occurring.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:22:01.200
And we were lucky we have five pilots a checking training captain who's checking the captain and the first officer, and another check-in training captain who was checking the check a training captain.
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:03.759
So there was an unbelievable experience cockpit.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:11.359
And they managed to land the aircraft, which a lot of people look back on and think that was just a complete miracle.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:19.519
The aircraft was on the ground for a year, over a year, and 120 million dollars were the repairs to the aircraft to get it back in the air.
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.759
And I I went up and flew on the aircraft on the first flight back.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:44.160
But when I wrote that chapter, I I go through the story that I was in the city here in Sydney at an investor presentation and I was coming back to Mascot where Quantas Head Office is and the share price, the investor relations guy was in the car with me and he said the share price is collapsing.
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:48.240
And he jokingly says I didn't think your speech was that bad to investors.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:23:03.839
And I said well find out what caused it and he ran rang around and some of the investors says oh there's rumors and pictures on social media of a Qantas aircraft crashing in Singapore in Indonesia just outside of Singapore.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:24.559
And I I said my heart stopped you sank when you heard that because you're thinking have we lost an aircraft and Quantas has that famous Rainman quote where Dustin Hoffman the Tom Cruise says I'm not traveling on any airline except Qantas because they have never lost an aircraft.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:24.799
Yeah.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.359
Because the safety reputation is unbelievable.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:34.240
Never lost a jet aircraft so um so you didn't want to be under your watch the CEO where that happened.
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:36.160
And that's what you taught in that moment.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:50.640
And then the book goes through having to have this crisis meeting with our senior executives our head of engineering finding out from the TV pictures being live streamed from Indonesia what type of failure there was.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:24:00.000
And then having to make the decision within minutes of grounding the entire fleet of aircraft because our chief engineer told me they weren't safe.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:09.839
If they're not safe they can't depart and you need to make the call now.
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:14.000
So high pressure the bit goes through that story.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:39.359
And that that still plays on me because we were so close to losing an aircraft where over 400 people on it so close to having you know the biggest aircraft in the sky it disappear and and so close and it was thanks to the pilots the amazing job they did the cabin crew the amazing job they did that the aircraft landed safely and that will always play in your mind.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:47.519
Rod Eddington who ran British Airways and ran Anset used to say that he'd go to bed and I think I did a certain calculation for Qantas.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:55.440
You go to bed every night and I think for Qantas it was like 12000 people are typically in the air when you go to bed.
00:24:55.599 --> 00:25:12.000
And when you wake up in the morning the first thing you do is check your phone to make sure that all of those people landed safely and then does that take its toll on you and is there worry involved there is because you airlines are the safest form of transportation in the world.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:34.400
It's amazing how safe the industry's become with the continuous improvement the industry's done absolutely amazing what what's there but you know when an aircraft goes down it is headlines around the world and you know that there's there's accountability and focus on you as the CEO that does happen.
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:41.920
And I think every airline CEO has that have a few friends of other airlines that went through accidents.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:55.039
Other airlines while I was there had accidents and seeing that that strain and that stress on them even though I think they handled them fairly well was was something I said I'd never want to go through that.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:03.039
Again is there something in the water northern that so many people have reached serious jobs in aviation over the years in recent times?
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:31.119
Oh well I think I think yeah I I go back to to that Erlingus that Erlingus training ground what a great company it was because you know it set up GPA which which with Tony Ryan because Tony ran the leasing arm in in Erlingus for a while it leased aircraft there one of the first companies to do it and then set that whole industry up in Ireland and Ireland still dominates the aircraft leasing business.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:33.680
Yeah it gave the spark from Ryanair.
00:26:33.920 --> 00:27:07.519
And so I think a lot of it came from that and you think that innovation that entrepreneurial spirit and when you went in aeringus it was very entrepreneurial and that's what I I think encouraged me to repeat a lot of that in Qantas when I was there and we did some some stuff very very similar with moving people around training them and those people the people I had working for me you know one of them is now running a software company in New York and he's a billionaire is he happy that happens to me he's he's happy and Bruce is great.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:24.319
We had Jane Hurdlicker who then went on to run Virgin and runs one of the biggest liquor companies here in Sydney another guy who runs the biggest medical company who worked for me in in Jetstar and another person that went on is running the biggest department stores here.
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:36.799
And you think of that's the same talent pipeline Airlink has produced and we produced it here in Quantas buelling a lot of different industries around the country because we created really capable people.
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:44.720
And you decided to go to Australia so the Ryanair option that Mikelee offered you after you thought you didn't get it was never going to work for you.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:46.960
You wanted to go away and do your own thing.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:54.799
It did and I think that was the best but did you want to be a CEO did you want to be a group managing director was that kind of leadership in your veins?
00:27:55.039 --> 00:28:17.839
It was because there was a great mentor in Erlingus a guy named Carol Acton who I thought he ran the passenger airline and I always thought he he did a phenomenal job and I thought that he I think he got there by the time he he was 45 or so and I always said I want to do I want to be CEO of an airline by the time of 40 I had that as an overriding goal.
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:24.319
It was 42 in a few years well it was Jetstar was 35 so I was CEO of Jetstar at 35.
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:28.319
So and then it was 42 for Quadrant's one of the biggest airlines in the world.
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:30.480
So not that I'm very competitive Russell.
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:55.680
Yeah your brothers can smile and say he done well as you say like when you sit there and when you sit there in the rocks of your balcony you must kind of pinch yourself and say this history of what I want to do actually fulfilled itself in many ways and superseded or I could have gone further who knows but it's a very remarkable story to to reflect on I'm sure if you drink a glass of wine on your balcony.
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:01.039
It is and the book was a great reflection on doing all of that.
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:08.799
And I think the book as you know brutally honest it covers a lot of the really good stuff and the really difficult stuff over the years.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:14.319
And it covers yeah it covers some of the major moments in aviation over that period of time.
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:28.480
And when you look back on it you know while I I landed by accident in aviation because of the operations research role I look back and thinking I could never I would never want to have missed it.
00:29:28.640 --> 00:30:08.400
The ups and downs make life interesting make it exciting make it enjoyable and you look back at that career and you think wow that was something else that was something a little 13 year old kid in Ireland could never expect it to have happened living in Tallinn living in a terraced house with his parents struggling to the uh to chaos through school you always thought well that it's something to come from that to be able to have those opportunities and what's what's great about Australia what was great about Erlingus I think it was a meritocracy that your capability um your capability was everything.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:22.960
I I talk in the book I have a little bit of section on fashion I have to say Rossa I talk when I started in Erlingus first I bought my first suit for the job interview and it was the polyester number I thought I looked fantastic.
00:30:23.119 --> 00:31:01.759
I thought I was like James Bond but I was I say I think I'm more looked like Norman wisdom I don't think it was the full length of the dance and my bosses saw through that they didn't look at the cheap suit and thought this guy Romney Stala accent could never do this job and they gave me an opportunity and then when I said a bit later when I was running Jetstar a magazine here photo with me the worst dress CEO in the country and he said I gave up paper copy boy and the water cooler looks as I was in my terrible suit.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:03.680
I thought that's a badge of honor.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:10.400
I thought if you're a low cost airline CEO you you don't want to be praised for your dress sense.
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:31.920
But then then that was having an impact on me getting the quantas job and then somebody somebody said you need to get a designer a fashion designer to give you some advice how to dress and so this little boy from Talent was having somebody advise him on which suits and ties to buy so he could manage to get the Qantas job which was successful.
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.319
But it was another aspect of trying to get there.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:41.200
In the end you have to go with the flow and some things as much as you've done to do it you have to go with people's expectations down.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:42.000
You know what I mean?
00:31:42.240 --> 00:32:05.119
Yes yes it was interesting because when you're running a premium I can understand it because when you're running a premium brand like Qantas where you're trying to encourage people to travel on first class business class and where your cabin crew and your pilots are insisting wear suits and ties, then it's very important for the CEO to represent that brand so I couldn't understand why it was an issue.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:33:04.400
When you're running a low-cost carrier when the crew wear polo shirts it's less important and when you want to encourage people or give the impression I don't think I've ever seen Michael Millary wear this wear a full suit with a tie have uh you russell no that happens and I I know him since I'm 13 he only wore them on Sunday math at school other than that he hasn't seen a tie unless he really has to you know I mean yeah those are the days yeah and you believe an execution of strategy is very important in any business you run isn't it it is i i think the example is jet star because no full service airline had successfully set up low-cost carrier before everybody had the idea you know I go through in the book all the failures I think United had an airline they called TED Delta had an airline they called Song British Airways tried to set up an airline called Go and so on I could go through the list and so they were all failures for one reason or another.
00:33:04.559 --> 00:34:21.280
So we looked at the reasons why they failed and we said well that's that's stuff we need to avoid and we then got experts in that had worked for really good low-cost carriers Connor McCarthy was director of operations for Michael O'Leary yeah I was very struck by his his insistence and embedded ingrained in your head commitment commitment commitment like don't don't deviate don't deviate it became I think are like a hype mantra he came down every now and again and said you're compromising too much here or you're compromising there which is how every other legacy carrier really failed the compromises and kind of would really strengthen my backbone and have the arguments within quantas to say we're not doing this we're not doing that and that's what made it yeah and I think and and I I say in the book you know while everybody has the idea what did they say success has a thousand fathers and failures but an awful and when you have a success story like Jetstar I think there's a thousand fathers out there saying they came up with the idea and I said yeah plenty of airlines came up with the idea the reality was the implementation the execution Silicon Valley say what execution each strategy for breakfast I think is the quote and I I think that is absolutely true.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.559
Yeah once you have the idea it's all about how you execute it.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:35.039
One phrase struck me when you talk about Qantas challenge is the tyranny of distance like you were so compromised the things you could do because you're so far away down there.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:38.000
And to run a business dealing with that is not easy.
00:34:38.320 --> 00:35:33.119
It's it's not easy um and you look back on the founding CEO and the founding founding uh team that set up Qantas in 1920 Qantas is the oldest continuous operating airline in the world and it's now over 10 what six years of age and so it it's got an amazing history but they said the whole purpose of Qantas was to overcome the tyranny of distance and we took that as the mantra for the airline and I think there's like there can be two tyrannies of distance there is the distance itself in getting people from Australia and it was originally to London where I think it took seven stops back in 1940 when Qantas did it and it took you 12 days to get there and to get it all the way down to 24 hours now and some people think that's tough.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:36:03.039
But when next year that's why I was so keen on Project Sunrise because now you can do it in one stop but from next year you can do a nonstop that's it and that is the last is that when you get two sunrise as well do you do I I traveled on a test flight from London to Sydney it was over 19 hours on the flight 19 hours 15 minutes with the reason why we call the project sunrise is because on that flight you do see two sunrises at the time you're leaving.
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:12.000
It's absolutely amazing and it was something very emotional about it seeing the second sunrise when you're on the flight because it was something nobody else can do or will do.
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:29.519
But the other tyranny of distance I come back to Jetstar is the cost of traveling and you think of how low-cost cardio is what Michael O'Nearly's done of I met I full of praise for Michael O'Nearly as you know Rossi in the book of what he's done in Europe for an Irish brand to be that successful.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:42.880
And I think with Jetstar we did that here and overcoming that other tyranny of distance is the cost to be able to travel those the tyranny of distance my family had when we grew up yeah like to see a Mike be able to go around and see you it's fab fabulous.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:59.599
And how do you deal with the bit of the tall poppy syndrome since the book came out and there's a bit of sniping around it to you just take that as part of the rough of the smooth you do also I think a part of it for me is that you you put it down as you see it.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:12.800
That's what a memoir is and you put down you get other people's recollections in it to make sure you get all your facts right which was what I did and I took really good notes and kept the press clippings all over those years.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:17.599
But you make sure it's very well researched and we got a great researcher to help me on it.
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:23.360
And then you you put that story out there and some people will have their views and different views on it.
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:45.280
And I think resilience is all about you know one of the things that that I couldn't do after I left Quantus I had a restriction where I couldn't speak for a year after I left which a lot of companies have and I felt like you know that that that was the only time in my 20 years as a CEO when you couldn't get out there and explain yourself and actually defend yourself and fight.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:51.840
My mom kipped and said to me why aren't you out there and I said well I can't be out there because I've got this restriction on me.
00:37:52.000 --> 00:38:03.280
And so the book was an opportunity of me to do that in long form and put down my side of what happened and where things were and tell the stories the amazing up stories and the amazing down stories.
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:05.920
And it's part of back to that resilience.
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:14.559
You know I always feel resilience is not now making you bulletproof and making you resistance to everything.
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:23.519
It's when you get knocked down it's it's having the ability to get back up and play on and I always felt Irish people do that very well.
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:25.679
I think I do I do that very well.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:39:12.800
You know I I use the other analogy in the book was one of the biggest uh hits I had physically was when I was giving a speech in Heart at a business breakfast promoting the new Perth London the first time Australia and Europe were connected with a non-stop service and then this guy who wasn't happy with my support for marriage equality sitting behind the the curtain for around three hours with box on his lap and nobody challenged him came out and he put a pie in my face which was a homophobic attack yeah it was an attack to say I don't want you speaking up on marriage equality on gay rights and he walked off just as I was going to deliver the speech I was covered in pie.
00:39:13.119 --> 00:40:36.400
I said feckin' heck I don't know what that was about yeah and my only concern when I got up the stage I said give me a few minutes to tidy up and I'll come back my only concern when I got up the stage to my head of PR was oh shit I just cursed on national TV and she said dude that's not going to be the story and then I tidied up cleared the the the crap from my my shirt took my jacket off went back in and gave the speech because I wasn't going to let somebody that was trying to bully me stop me from speaking gave the speech and the audience gave me a standing ovation so I think people want to see you blow true they want to see you being resilient they want to see uh you saying uh what you believe in and I've always felt that way but it comes it came at personal cost yourself and Jane had to move house back into the city you you did feel unsafe for a period that is not fair it's stressful so it didn't take a personal uh cost it it did but you are saying you are outspoken you do say what you you carry your thoughts on your sleeve and that bravery comes at a cost it it does and but I I think that's the way you have today I do tell another story that I was walking down George Street which is just like walking down Grafton Street in Dublin.
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:59.920
Yeah and you're going for your coffee weren't you going for your coffee were you your local coffee show and this guy said to me he said well can I get a selfie which people do still do today some people have a good attitude some don't that's do you just take you with that and I said of course and then he started recording and then and then he said he started then being verbally abusive and trying to get a rise out to me.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:38.639
So I just kept them walking on kept them walking on and then I said why are you trying why are you doing this and he says oh you're a grub you know you were asking people to get a vaccine during the COVID and you're a grub on this and that turned out to be this guy was um was a a Russian sympathizer called Ozzie Cossack and I then reacted to him and I told him to piss off and then he says I just got Alan Joyce to say piss off and then then a while later I said oh feck off mate and then he says oh I'm very happy and then I went viral and then my head of security says that is exactly what you shouldn't have done.
00:41:38.719 --> 00:42:06.639
You're just giving him what he wanted by saying the book but sometimes it it feels good to tell an asshole to F off but it turns out my head of security was right because it turned out a few weeks later he pushed this Ukrainian Arab protest down the set of stairs nearly killed him then fled to the Russian embassy and is now in the Russian embassy and as a Julian Assass type type situation.
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:18.639
And he's waiting for a prisoner transfer I think Putin made him a citizen of the of Russia and he's waiting for a transfer to hopefully get out of Australia and go to Russia.
00:42:18.800 --> 00:43:49.519
Well they're the type of individuals you just have to be careful about yeah and music what music float you boat do you have any songs ever with you I'm sure you have nostalgic tunes you think of now and again of Dublin or Ireland I know you're tone deaf I know you can't I know you can't sing I can't sing yeah I can't sing again I can't play an instrument I was you're doing the piano training you're not gonna do the piano I'm trying to do piano training I haven't gotten very far on that I have to say Russell but I I grew up a big fan of you too my brothers did as well anytime you two have played a concert in Australia I've always been there I've taken a load of people to it um I don't know how many times I've seen them I'd I only missed them in the in the spear in Las Vegas I regret that but beautiful day always lifts you up uh when you I do that on the gym every morning and I'd listen to at least one U2 song so that would be a big thing and I'm a big Elton John fan one of my friends is actually close friends with Elton and I've managed to meet Elton and I love his music so they're probably the big ones and what song Daniel or something what was this yeah I um I think yeah Daniel would be good crocodile rock a lot more nearly anything that's Elton John I just love yeah he's very good isn't he he is very good and keeps from reinventing himself as well Ross is good as I think he's had he's had a hit nearly every decade for as far as I've been alive.
00:43:49.760 --> 00:44:00.639
Oh girl Red's right he's a great man he's musically he's been phenomenal over the years I think most of us have Elton John tracks in our soundtrack of our lives and with Without a doubt.
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:01.599
Yes, yes.
00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:04.960
And the toughest moments, how do you bounce back from all those?
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:08.159
You just have a deep reserve of hardness.
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:11.119
I mean, you're mathematical, you're very analytical.
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:16.880
You are emotional because the way you treat passengers and care, that does come across.
00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:19.360
But you're a hard nut, it comes across.
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:26.320
And when you have your uh little failures, you just go through and reserve and say fight them and come back tomorrow, it doesn't matter.
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:27.679
Is that the way you do it?
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:28.880
Yeah, I think so.
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:34.400
And and you look, uh I don't think I'm any different from like Willie or Michael O'Leary in a lot of ways.
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:44.639
I think there's when you when you become a CEO of an airline and you have to make tough calls, you know you have to make tough calls, and you know that not everybody's gonna like you as a consequence of that.
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:53.679
And you know that you're gonna have some of the haters out there, but you know that that it's done with the best interests with everybody in mind that trying to save.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:57.039
In a lot of cases, we all try to save as many jobs as we could.
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:07.599
We all seen airlines go wonder, we all see people uh mismanage business and not making the tough decisions, and you think, oh, I'm not gonna let that happen to an airline I'm in charge of.
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:16.960
I think you also hear the stories I mentioned earlier, Russell, but I think the stuff I've gone through compares nothing to what my parents went through.
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:23.440
You know, the two of them grew up in the tenement housing of Dublin in the 30s and 40s.
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:29.199
My father gave me a great book about a normal history of tenement life in Dublin.
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:36.400
And, you know, one I quote it in the book, and I think he gave it to me to tell me what it was like for him growing up.
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:47.039
Or do it it's it said in that book that nearly 100,000 people in Dublin in those years lived in tenement thousand, and they were regarded as the worst slums in Dublin.
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:48.880
It was the worst slums in Europe.
00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:50.239
Absolutely horrendous.
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:53.679
And then you I told the story about my mother having to feed.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:59.760
When she got TB, she was in hospital for two years, she's lucky to survive that she came out.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:08.159
Her father got TB, there wasn't a social welfare system, her mother was working all hours and she was feeding her siblings at a soup kitchen.
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:15.440
And then I go through her life having to leave like a lot of Irish did in the in the 50s and 60s.
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.239
I think nearly about 15% of the population went to the UK.
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:27.280
Because there were no jobs in Ireland, her her and my father went over to the UK and had to find a job there.
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:39.199
And then when she gave birth to me, I wasn't breached birth, but the way the hospitals did it in Ireland at the time, they broke the woman's pelvis so she could have a natural birth.
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:44.639
And she I think that nearly cost her ability to walk later in life.
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:48.320
But she just got on and and lived with it.
00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:51.119
And you know, I look at her as my inspiration.
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:53.519
And my father, a similar tough life.
00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:57.840
And you look at what we go through today, Ross, and you think it's nothing compared to that.
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.079
Don't complain, just get on with it.
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:04.960
It must be delightful to be able to look after your mother the way you have been able in later in life.
00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:06.239
You've been so successful.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:07.199
That must be the pain.
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:08.719
Yeah, the joy.
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:10.079
I think it's been great.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:11.920
It's been a real joy having them.
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:35.840
They, you know, they didn't have holidays when we were kids, and getting them to go around the world before my father died, and they they were in some amazing places, and my mother absolutely adored that, and they loved traveling, and they became part of them, and seeing them having uh the ability to have a really better life in retirement and not having to worry about it.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:47.039
And then for them to see all my brothers having successful careers, big houses in Ireland, and then joining that and seeing their grandkids now going on to successful careers.
00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:49.360
That's been a big joy for them.
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:59.039
And you know, my father used to keep the press clippings uh of of me and the job, and he kept my business cards over the year, and I only discovered them.
00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:02.239
He used to ask each time, I was there, have you got a business card for a new job?
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:18.559
And I I and that was only when we were tidying up after he died I found all of these business cards in a file he had kept on me, like it was nearly like an FBI file, and he had all the business cards collected over the years, and it was obviously he surprised for him, which was amazing.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:21.360
Were you able to get them into the chairman's lounge, Ray?
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:27.519
Well, I would have if they were here, but they uh of course they weren't traveling around.
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:35.039
So anytime, anytime they were in Australia, they got into the chairman's lounge, usually with me traveling with them when they went around.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:39.360
Um my PA was very good and making sure uh they were got looked after.
00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:43.360
And staff and quantas were absolutely unbelievable when they traveled.
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:49.920
I still, when I travel today, I'll have people that met my parents on board and just say how amazing they were.
00:48:50.239 --> 00:49:00.079
There was always that humble not taking anything for granted, never expecting anything and being really thankful on it, even though their son is the CEO of the company.
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:01.760
And that's very Irish.
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:06.400
And I and the staff still remember that and still remember my parents because of that.
00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:06.960
Yeah.
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:15.519
You do believe quantas has changed after you left the quantas it was for in the good way or bad way, as a as a is a short answer, Alan.
00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:22.480
To me, it was always it means that logo means a lot to me over the years just because I flew it so many times.
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:27.360
But I think it's is is it still the same for most Australians, or has it really changed?
00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:29.599
Aviation has changed in fairness.
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:34.880
Aviation has, and you'd say to people, would your view also of Aerlingus have changed over the years?
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:41.360
Some people I still get emotional the shamrock, but not in the same way because aviation is not the same experience today.
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:51.519
Yeah, I still think Qantas will get a bag because doing things like Project Sunrise, and it was amazing the coverage the aircraft got when it arrived into Melbourne on its test flight.
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:59.360
Yeah, and when that goes next year, that uplifts the brand because people take pride when you do something like the moonshot of aviation.
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:03.760
And when you're out there leading it, which Qantas is, that is national pride.
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:06.239
That's like winning a gold medal at the Olympics.
00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:08.320
That's the aviation equivalent of that.
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:10.400
No other airline is doing it.
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:14.000
And I think that will change the attitude back to that level of pride.
00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:17.119
And now that you step back, what's the biggest thing you look forward to?
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:18.960
Not living your life in the public there.
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:25.920
Well, I still like even today, as we're out walking the dog, a few people stopped me and wanted to have a chat.
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:27.519
So that's still the case here.
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:29.760
I don't think it's the case in Ireland.
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:35.760
Maybe for maybe Michael O'Leary would have it, but most CEOs are not recognized in Australia.
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:38.719
For whatever reason, CEOs are recognised a bit.
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:40.719
And so that hasn't died down.
00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:43.119
And I think it'll take a while for that to occur.
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:53.760
But I'm I'm really enjoying not worrying about having 13,000 people in the air every night and waking up to messages and waking up to problems.
00:50:54.159 --> 00:51:04.000
I'm really enjoying because there were a few issues here at Sydney Airport where a couple of aircraft, because of air traffic control issues, and nearly collided on the European.
00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:06.239
Was that in Kingsford Smith or in New York?
00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:08.719
Yeah, it was over the last few weeks.
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:09.679
I saw that, yeah.
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:18.079
And then also not dealing with the uranium crisis, which has caused fuel prices to record levels, and potentially, I don't know if that continues.
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:21.360
Does it produce jet fuel shortages at some stage?
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:26.559
So you're not having to worry about those issues around the globe is a relief.
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:32.800
Do you still believe you're the same fellow from Tala now at 60 plus years of age, or have you changed?
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:34.320
And how have you changed if you have?
00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:44.480
I I I think you have to change with all that experience, all of the all of those different roles, that different uh personal experiences.
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:50.320
And I think I look back to when I was a kid in Tala, and I was a scared teenager, you know, being gay.
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:52.159
That's some that's the uncanny thing.
00:51:52.400 --> 00:52:00.159
You say you're a scared teenager, but yet you've lived the last 25 or 30 years in the public line like speaking every day.
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.000
I find that uncanny how you made that transition over the years.
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:12.159
I think it it builds up, I have to say, and then as you've been accepted by your parents, it probably gives you a bit more confidence.
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:16.159
And as you've been accepted at work, it gives you more confidence.
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:23.360
But it was always in the back of your mind and was the the the ability to be rejected by your family.
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:24.719
And it still happens today.
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:41.440
We're we're big sponsors of a charity that we were out of function last night, raising money for scholarships of young LGBTI people that are literally kicked out of home or rejected by the families, and it gets them through university.
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:57.199
I was lucky my parents accepted me and got me through the university, but that still happens today in Australia, and we have over a hundred scholarships in that charity where I'm a patron of great supporters to help uh support 100 kids going through university.
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:25.519
But but that was me as a kid, worried about that, worried about being kicked out, and then having that ability to go from that to fighting for margin quality, having a big role played in it, and being able to stand up to the bullies and doing what was right for the gay community and pushing through that, I think was was one of my personal achievements that I think developed me from a stare teenager to somebody that stood up and fought for our rights.
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:26.639
No, it's remarkable.
00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:27.920
Are you going to do swimming?
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:29.280
You're gonna learn how to swim now?
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:31.760
I I am, I've been taking lessons, and I'm getting.
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:34.239
I'll be calling you next week to see how you're doing.
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:36.400
I think it'll take a bit more.
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:40.159
So hopefully the swimming will go better.
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:44.880
Well, the biggest thing, I don't know if you've ever been to Great Barrio Reef.
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:49.360
The biggest thing that got me into it was not the ability of not being able to see that.
00:53:49.440 --> 00:54:01.039
I thought I swim into it to a stage where I could get into the water uh with with some flotation devices, but I still could get into the water and see the Great Barrio Reef, which has been amazing.
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:04.239
So I want to get better at that to be able to do that more often.
00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:06.239
So that was the biggest motivator.
00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:09.920
When there's a prize at the end of it, it gets you there.
00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:14.800
Alan Joyce, it's been an absolute pleasure, and thank you for joining us and iron and dis.
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:15.840
Thanks, Rossi.
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:19.199
It's been a pleasure talking to you, and thanks for making it so enjoyable.