The Great Ghost Debate: Are Spirits Human or Demonic?

Andrew
00:00:01
So that's all that we need.

Daniel
00:00:02
Not only sufficient, but the only thing.

Andrew
00:00:04
That could be done for us.

Daniel
00:00:05
Okay, so we don't need baptism then, because it's the only thing.

Daniel
00:00:09
Is it?

Daniel
00:00:10
Is it the only thing or is it not?

Daniel
00:00:11
Do you need to be baptized or not?

Daniel
00:00:13
Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient.

Matthew
00:00:19
It is true that you are an.

Neil
00:00:21
Extremely skilled debater and you're good.

Andrew
00:00:24
This is Apologetics Live to answer your questions.

Andrew
00:00:28
Your host from Striving For Eternity Ministries, Andrew.

Daniel
00:00:39
We are live Apologetics Live here to answer your most challenging questions you have about God in the Bible.

Daniel
00:00:44
As we say every week, we can answer any question you have about God and the Bible.

Daniel
00:00:49
But just remember, I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

Daniel
00:00:52
We're going to be doing something a little different this week, so we usually always announce that here.

Daniel
00:00:58
You can always come in at Apologetics Live and join and ask any questions.

Daniel
00:01:02
You will not be allowed to join live during the at least the first two hours.

Daniel
00:01:09
You will be able, if you're watching on YouTube, to put comments and we'll see them if you have questions for that, we're going to be having a formal debate.

Daniel
00:01:17
And if you have a question, and I'll mention this again later, just put the word question, colon, then ask your question and make it be a question, not a statement.

Daniel
00:01:27
But what we're going to look to do is get to those if we have time.

Daniel
00:01:32
At the end, we're going to be very tight on time, and therefore I'm going to jump right into this.

Daniel
00:01:38
I first want to introduce Adam Parker from the Bold Apologetic Apologia podcast, which I was had the privilege of being on your show.

Daniel
00:01:48
That's how we got to meet.

Daniel
00:01:50
That is how I got to meet one of the debaters, Daniel, and I got to watch your debate with these two folks that you had.

Daniel
00:01:58
So let me bring both Matthew McGuire and Daniel McAdams in, and I'm going to let Adam do the introduction since you know both these men better than I do.

Daniel
00:02:11
And then I will.

Daniel
00:02:12
Then we'll get into the format of the debate for folks.

Adam
00:02:16
Awesome.

Adam
00:02:17
Yes.

Adam
00:02:17
Thanks again, Andrew, for letting me be part of what you're doing here.

Adam
00:02:21
And it's great to just be a part of this.

Adam
00:02:23
So first I just want to introduce Matthew McGuire.

Adam
00:02:27
He's a great guy.

Adam
00:02:29
He wrote a magnificent book called A Magical World, and he and I actually started kind of talking a little bit over that, and since then, just has been really awesome getting to know him.

Adam
00:02:43
He's a very skilled debater.

Adam
00:02:46
He is just a great, great man of God.

Adam
00:02:49
And then we have Daniel McAdams and he leads six 12 ministries.

Adam
00:02:56
And both of these guys are really interesting.

Adam
00:02:59
Matth covers ghosts in his book and he has some great information on that.

Adam
00:03:04
And then Daniel was a ghost hunter for a number of years, and I'm sure a lot of you know that.

Adam
00:03:10
And so just from a previous appearance that he's had on the show.

Adam
00:03:15
And so these are some great guys.

Adam
00:03:17
And Andrew, I'll let you open the door for them to kind of introduce themselves a little bit more.

Daniel
00:03:23
Yeah.

Daniel
00:03:24
Matthew, anything else you want to add to to that introduction?

Andrew
00:03:29
Thanks, Adam.

Andrew
00:03:30
Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew
00:03:31
I appreciate you having me on the show.

Andrew
00:03:32
I am, like Adam said, I'm the author of a book called A Magical World how the Bible Makes Sense of the Supernatural, and I include a lengthy appendix on ghosts.

Andrew
00:03:42
So a lot of the information I'll bring up is from that appendix, if people are interested.

Andrew
00:03:47
And I did my undergraduate work at Crandall University in the Biblical studies, and I also am a student at the Rhine Education center, which is a parapsychology research center.

Andrew
00:03:59
So there's some interaction with that field of work as well that I incorporate in my writings.

Andrew
00:04:05
I write regularly on Substack.

Andrew
00:04:08
You can find everything that I do on mattmcguire.net and also for anyone that wants to follow along, I've got a bunch of debate notes, so no surprises.

Andrew
00:04:16
If you go to mattmcguire.net ghostnotes PDF, you'll get all of my notes, including you, Daniel, so you can follow right along, see everything I plan to say tonight.

Andrew
00:04:28
No surprises.

Daniel
00:04:28
But he's telling you that now a couple days ago.

Andrew
00:04:33
I don't want you to have too much time to look over them, but it does have all of the resources, or at least the majority of resources that I'm going to be referencing tonight.

Neil
00:04:42
Opportunity.

Daniel
00:04:43
That's kind of funny.

Daniel
00:04:45
Michael Brown and I are supposed to be debating on charismatic gifts, and we both agreed that we would actually give each other our opening comments beforehand so that we have time to interact with it, ask any questions before we actually do it.

Daniel
00:04:59
So Daniel, anything you want.

Daniel
00:05:02
And Daniel, as was mentioned, Daniel, you've been on before and folks, it's the time when Daniel was.

Daniel
00:05:09
We start talking about some of the paranormal and all of a sudden the Catholic guy came in and dominated the show.

Neil
00:05:15
But anything you want to ask that was paranormal for sure on that show.

Neil
00:05:19
But yeah, my name is Neil McAdams.

Neil
00:05:21
I've been on Apologetics Live before Talking about evidential apologetics.

Neil
00:05:25
And then I've been on Adam's podcast a couple times.

Neil
00:05:28
So it's a blessing to be back with you guys.

Neil
00:05:30
And then as mentioned, I got to debate Matthew on Adam's podcast and we had a wonderful time.

Neil
00:05:36
That was a, a grand time having that debate and talking with you, Matthew.

Neil
00:05:40
So I'm looking forward to this one as well.

Neil
00:05:43
As Adam said, I used to be a paranormal investigator.

Neil
00:05:46
I was involved in that field for about 10 years before God, God called me out of that.

Neil
00:05:51
I wrote a book, as you can see over my right shoulder, called Biblical Explanations the Paranormal.

Neil
00:05:57
Why go through what the Bible has to say about the paranormal?

Neil
00:06:01
Because it took 10 years of looking for questions about what the paranormal is, what are ghosts and all these different things, and wasn't finding him in any secular realm.

Neil
00:06:11
And then as soon as I opened the Bible, the answer started pouring out.

Neil
00:06:15
So I'm excited for this debate and discussion tonight and it's going to be a blessing.

Daniel
00:06:22
Yeah.

Daniel
00:06:22
And, and you know folks, you could tell that Daniel is trying to suck up to the host with a, with the, you know, book placement there.

Daniel
00:06:29
He's got, he's got my book what Do We Believe and my book what do they Believe right next, you know, in prominent view before his own book, you know, sucking up to the host.

Daniel
00:06:38
So yeah, Doreen says so this is going to be an in house debate.

Daniel
00:06:41
Yes, this will be.

Daniel
00:06:43
Before we start, let me also just since this question came up, not a question for you guys, but the question is how is Aaron Brewster and his family?

Daniel
00:06:52
Are there any updates?

Daniel
00:06:53
So I haven't watched for some time.

Daniel
00:06:55
Brother John from Canada, Aaron is.

Daniel
00:06:58
So folks who don't know, Aaron Brewster is one of our speakers at Striving Fraternity.

Daniel
00:07:02
He was got affected by the storms in North Carolina and I know that no one knows anything about North Carolina.

Daniel
00:07:09
It's just California.

Daniel
00:07:10
That's all that matters.

Daniel
00:07:12
You know, when millionaire Hollywood types, houses burn, that matters.

Daniel
00:07:17
You know.

Daniel
00:07:18
But when, you know, average people's houses burn or get flooded, it's not an issue for them.

Daniel
00:07:24
But the media doesn't care.

Daniel
00:07:26
So the issue is, yes, we've been able to raise over $10,000.

Daniel
00:07:30
The total need that he has is about 50.

Daniel
00:07:34
We have been able to raise enough money to basically replace his H VAC system which was good for the winter.

Daniel
00:07:41
He has heat.

Daniel
00:07:42
The bigger issue, which I think is in the 10, $20,000 range, is now dealing with all the mold.

Daniel
00:07:50
They are having health issues because their house is filled with mold and they're so yeah, so if anyone wants to, to help out with that campaign that we're doing, just go to givesendgo sfe so I'll put that up there right there.

Daniel
00:08:09
So it's givesendgo.com SFE that is where you can go to support him.

Daniel
00:08:15
So with that this is going to be the format of debate that both men have agreed agreed to.

Daniel
00:08:21
They will each.

Daniel
00:08:22
We'll start with Matthew followed by Daniel.

Daniel
00:08:25
Matthew is taking the position that ghosts can be human spirits, former human spirits.

Daniel
00:08:34
He believes they could be demonic but they also could be former human spirits.

Daniel
00:08:39
Daniel will go second.

Daniel
00:08:40
His position is that they are only demonic spirits and they're not human spirits.

Daniel
00:08:45
So that is the debate topic.

Daniel
00:08:47
We'll start with 15 minutes each opening.

Daniel
00:08:50
Then they will have 10 minutes each to rebut the opening of the others.

Daniel
00:08:55
Then we'll have a 15 minute cross examinee from each of them and then a five minute closing.

Daniel
00:09:01
If there is time left we will open to questions in the, in the chat.

Daniel
00:09:06
Again if you have a question, put the word question colon and then put the question so that I can see it.

Daniel
00:09:12
And so that is going to be the format.

Daniel
00:09:14
We're going to jump right into it for time.

Daniel
00:09:16
We will not be going much after 10 o'clock or at least Matthew will not.

Daniel
00:09:20
So if you have quite for there's questions for Matthew we might have to ask those right away.

Daniel
00:09:24
So with that I'm going to remove Adam and let's see, I will put in.

Daniel
00:09:30
I'm going to go to that mode.

Daniel
00:09:33
Okay, I'll remove Daniel and you have your clock.

Daniel
00:09:37
So whenever you want to start I will hit the button.

Andrew
00:09:45
All right, well thanks and I just want to say at the out front, thanks to Daniel for joining me again.

Andrew
00:09:51
We had a really fun friendly time last time.

Andrew
00:09:53
He's a brother and he's very genuine and in his position.

Andrew
00:09:57
So this, I don't see this as a clobbering opportunity.

Andrew
00:10:00
This is just like someone said, an in house debate.

Andrew
00:10:04
The first thing I want to do before I dig in is just correct one mistake that I made in the last one.

Andrew
00:10:10
I when I was talking About World War I apparitions of dead soldiers, I mentioned phantasms of the living.

Andrew
00:10:17
That is the wrong source.

Andrew
00:10:18
It was written before World War I.

Andrew
00:10:21
A better source for that.

Andrew
00:10:22
It's a great book but it's not the right source.

Andrew
00:10:24
A better source would be it's a book by Kyle Falcon called Haunted Britain.

Andrew
00:10:28
That's a new one that came out among other sources that document apparitions after World War I.

Andrew
00:10:34
But anyway, back to the debate itself.

Andrew
00:10:37
Like I said, a lot of the stuff that I'm going to reference comes from my book the Appendix to a Magical World.

Andrew
00:10:43
And as I also said, you can go to mattmguire.net and I have a link right to all of the debate notes for tonight.

Andrew
00:10:49
So I also want to say both views that either ghosts can be human spirits or they can never be, have support in church history.

Andrew
00:10:57
So I'm not arguing that my position is obvious, but my position I think is probable.

Andrew
00:11:02
I think it's more probable than not.

Andrew
00:11:05
So on my side of the debate, you have people like Justin Martyr, Origin of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, Augustine, kind of, and I can explain that later.

Andrew
00:11:15
As far as post Reformation, you have Richard Baxter, John Flavel, John Wesley, Johann Blumhardt, and in the 20th century and 21st century, people like the Lutheran, John Warwick Montgomery, J.B.

Andrew
00:11:26
phillips, Ben Witherington and Michael Heiser.

Andrew
00:11:29
They all had a category for ghosts, as there's this deceased spirits of humans, which was a possibility.

Andrew
00:11:35
On the other hand, people like Tertullian, people like Martin Luther, Martin Chemnitz, King James himself, and modern scholars like Craig Keener argue that ghosts are not human spirits.

Andrew
00:11:47
In fact, they are demonic impostors.

Andrew
00:11:49
So there's.

Andrew
00:11:50
We have to respect both sides because there's a lot of precedent on both sides.

Andrew
00:11:54
I'm going to be approaching this topic, like many things, from the epistemology of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

Andrew
00:12:00
Not everyone is a fan of this, but I have found it very helpful in discerning truth in the Wesleyan Quadrilateral says we should determine truth first through Scripture, then through experience, then through reason, and then through tradition, as sort of a ways of balancing each other out.

Andrew
00:12:16
Of course, Scripture enjoys a place of priority, and then the other three methods are ways of refining our thoughts and filling in the gaps.

Andrew
00:12:24
So according to Scripture, I'm going to argue that the Bible has a category for ghosts, a legitimate category of the spiritual realm.

Andrew
00:12:31
And this coincides with the majority report not only of the ancient world, but of the medieval world and even the contemporary world.

Andrew
00:12:37
If we're talking about global culture, the Bible assumes the existence of ghosts and works within that framework, and we can deal with specific passages along the way through the category of experience.

Andrew
00:12:49
It is pretty well conceded that some form of ghost is attested in pretty much every culture.

Andrew
00:12:56
Now, some cultures like ancient Greece, the ghosts were considered like a shade and they weren't like the full person.

Andrew
00:13:02
Plato had more of a More of a idea of a more substantial soul that survives death.

Andrew
00:13:09
But in general, whether you're talking about ancient India, ancient China, ancient Mesopotamia, they all had this idea of a ghost.

Andrew
00:13:15
And many of these ghosts exhibit common motifs, reasons for their existing, pointing to something that.

Andrew
00:13:22
That may be objective rather than just a subjective hallucination.

Andrew
00:13:25
On the reason perspective, I think the principle of phenomenal conservatism, which, for people unfamiliar with this term, basically it means you should take things at face value until you have reason to believe otherwise.

Andrew
00:13:40
This is the reason I don't believe that we're living in a simulation.

Andrew
00:13:42
If we lived in a simulation, I could never falsify it.

Andrew
00:13:45
I could never know otherwise.

Andrew
00:13:47
But because I would go crazy if I believe we were in a simulation, I'm just going to take my five senses at face value until I have reason to suspect otherwise.

Andrew
00:13:58
And then from the.

Andrew
00:13:59
And so with the area of ghosts, until I have good evidence to believe that a ghost is a demon or a psychic projection or something, I'm going to take the ghost at face value because I do believe in a supernatural world, as does my opponent.

Andrew
00:14:12
And then finally, in the tradition, part of the quadrilateral, as I mentioned, the view of ghosts has a lot of support in church history.

Andrew
00:14:21
It's impossible to argue which one is the majority and which one's the minority view, because as anyone knows who looks at early church history and medieval church history, it's really hard to track down majority views and minority views.

Andrew
00:14:34
But there is a lot of names that argue the same thing that I argue.

Andrew
00:14:39
And lastly, on the tradition category, I do want to point out that one of the big reasons that Protestants are so skeptical of ghosts is because of a polemic from the Reformation era, where Catholics were using ghostly appearances as a bludgeon to tell the Protestants that their doctrine of purgatory was correct.

Andrew
00:14:56
And the Protestants are like, not so fast.

Andrew
00:14:59
Purgatory is false.

Andrew
00:15:01
And so these ghosts must be demons helping you prove your purgatory doctrine.

Andrew
00:15:05
Now, that doesn't represent their whole argument, but we should be historically aware that that is a major motivation with ghosts.

Andrew
00:15:13
So if we jump into Scripture, I'm going to point out some scriptures that seem to support my position, and then the ones that are more difficult, I expect Daniel will bring up, and we can deal with that in the rebuttal, of course.

Andrew
00:15:25
So Daniel and I both agree, at least as far as the last debate.

Andrew
00:15:29
We both agree that when Samuel shows up in 1st Samuel 28, that it was the real Samuel.

Andrew
00:15:35
I think Daniel takes the position that this was sort of a direct miracle of God and it even surprised the, the, the medium or the ghost mistress at the time.

Andrew
00:15:43
Whereas I, on the other hand, I'm open to the idea that the Bible presents this story as, as evidence that necromancy was taken seriously.

Andrew
00:15:52
The Israelites are forbidden from getting their spiritual knowledge outside of Yahweh and his and through his prophets.

Andrew
00:15:59
And so necromancy is a sin, but that doesn't mean necromancy is false.

Andrew
00:16:03
Michael Heiser writes, the reason for this prohibition was not that it couldn't be done, it could.

Andrew
00:16:07
Rather, God insisted that he be the lone source of information from the spiritual world for his people.

Andrew
00:16:13
So the next passage, and we can go through, you know, the Isaiah uses terms like eteam and OV and mateem and these are all terms that refer to the dead in general.

Andrew
00:16:25
And there's some ambiguity as to whether he's, he's affirming their existence or whether he's just critiquing people that try to consult with them.

Andrew
00:16:33
So I won't, I won't put too much weight on the Isaiah passages.

Andrew
00:16:38
When we get to the New Testament, there is some more telling passages.

Andrew
00:16:42
I point out that in Matthew 17 that's the appearance of Moses on the mount of transfiguration is not a proof of, you know, ghosts being humans.

Andrew
00:16:51
But I think it does undermine people that say an apparition of a dead person must always be evil or it's always, always a demon because we have Jesus himself accommodating this apparition of Moses who is a deceased individual.

Andrew
00:17:06
So it's just principle case.

Andrew
00:17:07
That kind of complicates some of the, the sweeping statements of the other side.

Andrew
00:17:12
Now we're getting to more poignant episodes such as Mark 6 and Matthew 14 are parallel passages where the disciples are in the boat and they see Jesus walking on the sea.

Andrew
00:17:23
They call him a phantasma.

Andrew
00:17:24
And it's pretty universally agreed they thought he was a ghost.

Andrew
00:17:28
So this wouldn't mean too much because of course, you know, Jesus could say, by the way guys, ghosts aren't real.

Andrew
00:17:34
Like what are you talking about?

Andrew
00:17:35
The problem is when you get to Luke 24, the disciples post resurrection, see Jesus again and they call him Enuma.

Andrew
00:17:43
And most responsible translations such as the Lexham English Bible, the New Revised Standard and the Net Bible, they all translate this ghost, even though the word technically is spirit.

Andrew
00:17:52
And we even have a 5th century textual variant that changes pneuma to phantasma.

Andrew
00:17:57
Just to make everyone clear, these disciples thought they were Seeing a ghost.

Andrew
00:18:01
So it's not conclusive proof, but it does show that these disciples retained this belief in a category, a spiritual category of ghosts, as deceased humans.

Andrew
00:18:10
And one of the motifs of ghosts is that they have a violent death and then they're back for vengeance.

Andrew
00:18:16
So it's, it, it makes sense that they're all startled and frightened when they see Jesus and they call him a numa.

Andrew
00:18:20
They're like, oh, no.

Andrew
00:18:22
And Jesus has to prove to them that he's not a numa, he's not a ghost.

Andrew
00:18:26
And then you get To Acts chapter 12, this one's a little bit more ambiguous.

Andrew
00:18:31
But it's been cogently argued that when the disciples, when Jesus is, sorry, excuse me, when Peter is at the door and the servant girl, Rhoda answers and says it's Peter, the disciples say, oh, it's his angel.

Andrew
00:18:43
Well, angel is a euphemism for his ghost, because that would, that would make sense of why she would see or hear the voice of Peter or possibly see him through a crack in the door and say, it's Peter.

Andrew
00:18:56
Whereas they're like, no, no, no, that's just his ghost.

Andrew
00:18:57
He was probably killed at the Antonia fortress.

Andrew
00:19:00
They probably murdered him.

Andrew
00:19:02
Because we have a wicked king.

Andrew
00:19:04
It's not 100% conclusive, but it's also telling.

Andrew
00:19:07
We may have a third instance of the disciples continuing this belief in a category of ghosts after the resurrection.

Andrew
00:19:14
These disciples aren't named, but they're still in, you know, Judea.

Andrew
00:19:18
And so presumably they would, would have been connected with Jesus or at least his immediate followers.

Andrew
00:19:23
Then you have John chapter 11.

Andrew
00:19:25
This one is not.

Andrew
00:19:26
This is just adds another layer of evidence where Jesus waits four days to resurrect Lazarus from the dead.

Andrew
00:19:33
And we know from a couple centuries later there's written documents saying that Jews believe that a soul would hover around a body for three days trying to return into the body.

Andrew
00:19:43
And even though that evidence is late, DA Carson has argued that the belief probably goes back to Jesus's time and it explains why he would have waited four days.

Andrew
00:19:52
So even though Jesus doesn't say, oh, the ghost is lingering, he does accommodate the view of ghosts lingering.

Andrew
00:19:58
This is also in extra biblical literature such as first century works, the Life of Adam and Eve and the Book.

Andrew
00:20:05
For Ezra, they both talk about the soul lingering.

Andrew
00:20:07
In their case, they have it for one week after death.

Andrew
00:20:10
So we have a belief in Second Temple Judaism that the soul lingers after death.

Andrew
00:20:15
So we're building this worldview that seems to be assumed by a Lot of the New Testament characters and followers of Jesus.

Andrew
00:20:24
Now, getting beyond scripture, we point to experience.

Andrew
00:20:28
And I point out that people like Homer, Plato, Socrates, ancient Egypt, all these ancient cultures, they all believed in ghosts in one form or another.

Andrew
00:20:38
And Dale Allison and others have pointed out there's many, many common motifs among these, such as a violent death, people that didn't suffer, didn't get the right funeral rights.

Andrew
00:20:49
And in the ancient world, it was almost universally considered a bad thing.

Andrew
00:20:53
If you see a ghost, something has gone wrong.

Andrew
00:20:56
If ghosts were just, you know, a hallucination or something, then you would expect all kinds of different reasons for ghosts.

Andrew
00:21:03
But the fact that many of these ghosts share common reasons for, you know, appearing or becoming a ghost shows that maybe there's some sort of factor in the spiritual plane of existence that, that shows it's, it's real, it's not a hallucination.

Andrew
00:21:17
I also point out that veridical information or corroborative information from ghosts points to it being a real thing and not just a hallucination, as well as multiple witnesses.

Andrew
00:21:27
So I'm gonna cite from this, there's an award winning essay from the Bigelow Institute.

Andrew
00:21:32
And they communicate a couple of these things called after death communications.

Andrew
00:21:38
So the first one is the case of Lucille's biological grandfather, which you can find in the notes.

Andrew
00:21:43
And this is.

Andrew
00:21:46
Lucille was a 39 year old hotel housekeeper in Florida.

Andrew
00:21:49
She was adopted after birth.

Andrew
00:21:50
Her birth name was Mary, but her adoptive parents had changed it to Lucille.

Andrew
00:21:54
So this lady, she, I'll try to summarize it because we're low on time, but basically she, she's always wanted to reconnect with her adoptive parents, but she didn't want to hurt the feelings of her, excuse me, her biological parents, but she didn't want to hurt the feelings of her adoptive parents.

Andrew
00:22:08
She gets this dream from this person that she doesn't know and the person says, go find your mother.

Andrew
00:22:14
And she sees what the person looks like and so she's motivated to find her birth mother.

Andrew
00:22:19
And she joins one of these adoptive groups, finds the mother right away.

Andrew
00:22:24
And then she describes this whole scenario and what he looks like, what suit he was wearing.

Andrew
00:22:29
And then the mother says, wow, that was your grandfather.

Andrew
00:22:31
As it turns out, that grandfather on his deathbed just, just recently had died.

Andrew
00:22:37
And one of his last wishes that he said was, go find your daughter.

Andrew
00:22:40
So we have this whole situation where we have information that she could not have gotten by natural means.

Andrew
00:22:46
The question is, was this a demon?

Andrew
00:22:48
Was this psychic functioning or was it the Spirit of the departed.

Andrew
00:22:51
And I would argue that there's no clear demonic motivation that would make me think that another case is the case of Blair's father.

Andrew
00:22:59
Just to summarize that basically this woman saw her.

Andrew
00:23:02
Her father, the apparition of her father, and she just.

Andrew
00:23:05
Her first instinct was, oh, maybe this is just.

Andrew
00:23:07
I'm grieving, I'm seeing the image, but he looked very solid.

Andrew
00:23:10
And then right at her, her little son was with her.

Andrew
00:23:13
And then the little son said, oh, Grampy's okay.

Andrew
00:23:16
Or grampy, excuse me, my granddaddy.

Andrew
00:23:19
My granddaddy is what he says.

Andrew
00:23:20
And she says to him, your granddaddy is gone, son.

Andrew
00:23:23
And he said, no, my granddaddy was right here.

Andrew
00:23:25
So we have a case of two witnesses seeing the same apparition.

Andrew
00:23:28
I.

Andrew
00:23:28
I have exam more examples of this in my book as well.

Andrew
00:23:31
So I think this just points to the fact that these are objective experiences.

Andrew
00:23:36
They're paranormal, supernatural, not.

Andrew
00:23:39
Not just a hallucination.

Andrew
00:23:40
Getting to the reason perspective, I have what's called the white crow advantage.

Andrew
00:23:46
William James said, if you wish to upset the law that all crows are black, you mustn't seek to show that no crows are.

Andrew
00:23:53
It is enough to prove one single crow to be white.

Andrew
00:23:56
I just have to prove that one ghost is the spirit of a dead human.

Andrew
00:23:59
Daniel has to prove that they're all demonic or they're all hallucination.

Andrew
00:24:04
But going back to the phenomenal conservatism approach, I believe that some ghosts may be demonic imposters.

Andrew
00:24:11
Some of them might even be a result of psychic functioning, such as some poltergeist activity or false apparitions of Jesus, like we have in the life of St.

Andrew
00:24:19
Martin of Tours.

Andrew
00:24:21
However, just in the same way that we shouldn't attribute every temptation to demons, I think it would be irresponsible to attribute every single ghost to demons as well.

Andrew
00:24:31
So this.

Andrew
00:24:32
This is sort of where I land.

Andrew
00:24:33
I just don't find the.

Andrew
00:24:34
The demon of the gaps approach to be very convincing, although it may be the case in certain episodes.

Andrew
00:24:41
I don't see for a lot of these stories, I just don't see the demonic motivation.

Daniel
00:24:49
That is right on time.

Daniel
00:24:51
So let me bring Daniel in.

Daniel
00:24:56
There we go.

Daniel
00:24:57
Daniel, we will restart the clock here for you, and once you get going, I will start it, but you have to unmute first.

Daniel
00:25:06
That will be helpful.

Neil
00:25:09
That is a good point.

Neil
00:25:10
Thank you.

Neil
00:25:13
All right, ready when you are.

Daniel
00:25:14
All right, go.

Neil
00:25:18
So right off the bat, I'd like to just note that both Matthew and I do have a Belief in the supernatural.

Neil
00:25:27
So this is not a debate over whether or not ghosts or demons exist.

Neil
00:25:31
We both agree that they do.

Neil
00:25:33
There's tons of historical and cultural evidence for the existence of the paranormal.

Neil
00:25:39
That was part of the reason why I was a paranormal investigator for so long, because this stuff is real.

Neil
00:25:47
But when it comes to the question about ghosts and demons, or questions about faith, theology and the supernatural and eternal matters, the question we should be asking is what does the Bible say?

Neil
00:26:01
Sure, there is a a lot of historical and cultural evidence for this position, as Matthew made abundantly clear.

Neil
00:26:09
But as Christians, we shouldn't be seeking to understand these things based on the historical and cultural accounts or personal experiences.

Neil
00:26:20
We need to be turning to Scripture as our final authority.

Neil
00:26:24
That is why in the Reformation time, sola scriptura was the rallying cry of the Reformers Scripture alone.

Neil
00:26:33
So you might be wondering what sola scriptura has to do to this debate.

Neil
00:26:37
To do with this debate?

Neil
00:26:39
Well, it's foundational to this debate.

Neil
00:26:41
It's essential.

Neil
00:26:43
Sola scriptura means that for us as Christians, that God's Word is the ultimate and only infallible authority for our faith and for matters of theology and the spiritual realm.

Neil
00:26:56
It does not mean that tradition, experiences, church councils, philosophical musings, scientific findings, commentaries, pastors, teachers, scholars, or debates like this are are useless and need to be rejected by Christians.

Neil
00:27:11
But rather it simply means that while all these are useful, they are not to be the final and ultimate authority for the Christian, as that position is occupied by Scripture alone.

Neil
00:27:23
So we are to stand fast upon the Bible as Christians and examine all by the Bible and reject all that does not align with the Bible.

Neil
00:27:35
So this is critical to this debate because when you examine the thesis, are some ghosts the spirits of dead humans?

Neil
00:27:44
When you examine that in the light of Scripture, you will find that Scripture does not in any way, shape or form teach that the spirits of human beings can linger on the earth after death.

Neil
00:27:55
Now, Matthew already brought this passage up, but some of you are probably thinking about what about the spirit of Samuel when King Saul had the witch of Endor summon him.

Neil
00:28:05
Well, that was a one off invent and it is a descriptive passage of something that happened in the past.

Neil
00:28:11
It is not a prescriptive passage, meaning that it's not prescribed as something that we should follow or expect.

Neil
00:28:19
So it is poor hermeneutics to build a doctrine off a passage of Scripture that is descriptive of an historical event.

Neil
00:28:27
And Matthew and I are both in agreement on this passage, that the plain, normative, straightforward reading of the text makes it clear that God allowed the spirit of Samuel to deliver one last message to Saul.

Neil
00:28:39
So when we examine the question of Are some ghosts the spirits of dead humans?

Neil
00:28:44
Do we let historical accounts, cultural beliefs, and personal experiences dictate our beliefs about ghosts and the afterlife, as well as influence how we read the Bible concerning these things?

Neil
00:28:55
Or do we view these historical accounts, cultural beliefs, and personal experiences through what the Bible teaches?

Neil
00:29:01
Well, my friends, God's word is truth, and God's Word doesn't change.

Neil
00:29:08
So when we're looking at the biblical passages concerning death and the afterlife, we need to remember that the main things are the plain things in Scripture and the plain things are the main things, and that if the literal sense makes sense, we need to not seek more sense, lest we end up with nonsense.

Neil
00:29:28
So let's turn to some passages of Scripture and examine what Scripture says on this topic.

Neil
00:29:34
Looking at Job, chapter 7, verses 9 through 10 starting in the Old Testament, we see Job say when a cloud vanishes, it is gone.

Neil
00:29:44
So when he goes down to Sheol, that is, the place of the grave does not come up, he will not return again to his house, nor will his place know him anymore.

Neil
00:29:56
The Psalmist in Psalm 146, verses 3 through 4 says, do not trust in princes, in mortal man in whom there is no salvation.

Neil
00:30:05
His spirit departs he returns to the earth, and that very day his thoughts perish.

Neil
00:30:12
Thoughts, thinking, ideas, plans, they perish when man dies.

Neil
00:30:18
And then Ecclesiastes Solomon in chapter 9, verses 5 through 6, writes, for the living know they will die, but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer.

Neil
00:30:29
A reward for their memory is forgotten.

Neil
00:30:32
Indeed, their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Neil
00:30:39
And we While we know that Ecclesiastes was written as a kind of cynical outlook on life, the book starts with Vanity of vanities.

Neil
00:30:47
Is it correct to think that King Solomon, the wisest man to ever live, would be incorrect when he wrote, under the Holy Spirit's inspiration that the dead no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun?

Neil
00:31:00
To insinuate that the Bible teaches an error here is thus to call into question the truthfulness of the entirety of Scripture.

Neil
00:31:10
So if we see that the Bible plainly teaches that the dead no longer have any interactions with the living, that their plans and thoughts and desires have perished, and that they no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun, then what does happen when we die now the Old Testament gave kind of a.

Neil
00:31:28
A shadowy view of the afterlife.

Neil
00:31:30
But in the New Testament, the apostles, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and filled with the Holy Spirit, give us a fuller picture of what happens when we die.

Neil
00:31:42
And Paul states the answer plainly and clearly to what happens when we die in two different passages in Second Corinthians 5, verses 6 through 8, he says, therefore, being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight, we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Neil
00:32:08
And in Philippians 1, verses 21, 24, he says, for me, to live is Christ and die is gain, but if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me.

Neil
00:32:17
I do not know which to choose, but I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better.

Neil
00:32:25
Yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Neil
00:32:30
So Paul clearly teaches that after death we are immediately present with the Lord as believers.

Neil
00:32:35
Paul didn't long to die and hopefully stick around as a ghost to tie up loose ends.

Neil
00:32:41
He longed to be with the Lord.

Neil
00:32:43
And if any person had unfinished business to fulfill back on earth after he died, it would have been the Apostle Paul.

Neil
00:32:51
And this is why Christians don't have to fear death.

Neil
00:32:54
This is why we don't have to turn to the paranormal and ghostly realm to seek assurance of what happens when we die, or to find hope for the life after this.

Neil
00:33:05
When we turn to Scriptures and we see as believers, our hope is in Jesus Christ.

Neil
00:33:10
We have the blessed hope promised to us that we will be present with our Lord and Savior when we depart from this life.

Neil
00:33:17
And Jesus gives insights into the afterlife in his parable concerning the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16.

Neil
00:33:25
Now, for sake of time, I'm not going to read this all, but if you guys want to look it up, it's verses 19 through 31.

Neil
00:33:32
And while the immediate context of this parable is addressed towards the Pharisees, the parable contains spiritual truths which we as believers can learn from.

Neil
00:33:42
Thus, we can safely infer from the plain reading of this parable some thoughts and insights on the afterlife.

Neil
00:33:48
The first is that the saved immediately go to paradise in heaven, and the unbelievers immediately go to Hades, where they await final judgment.

Neil
00:33:57
We also see that there's no second chance after death.

Neil
00:33:59
And we see that nobody is sent back to earth to give messages to the living after death.

Neil
00:34:04
Which is in line with what I said earlier in the other passages that I quoted, thus showing that Scripture interprets scripture and is perfect and consistent in what it teaches.

Neil
00:34:15
And it also says in this parable that we do not need a message from the dead as we have the inerrant, complete, authoritative, sufficient word of God.

Neil
00:34:24
So based on these passages of Scripture, there is a clear teaching about what happens when we die.

Neil
00:34:29
The believer's spirit goes immediately into the presence of the Lord, and the unbeliever spirit goes into a place of torment.

Neil
00:34:36
And we know that the body returns to the dust of the earth, but at the resurrection, the spirit will be united with the glorified body in the believer's case.

Neil
00:34:45
But one's eternal destiny will not change.

Neil
00:34:49
So nowhere in Scripture is it taught, either explicitly or implicitly, that a person's spirit can come back to minister to the living after a person has died.

Neil
00:34:59
But that brings up the question, then, what are ghosts?

Neil
00:35:03
Well, we need to remember that personal experiences, historical accounts, and cultural beliefs do not trump Scripture.

Neil
00:35:11
We do not interpret scripture in light of any of these.

Neil
00:35:14
Rather, we interpret these through the light of what Scripture teaches.

Neil
00:35:19
If the Bible only teaches two options on a subject, in this case heaven or Hades as to where we go when we die, then any other options that are presented can be immediately dismissed as being wrong.

Neil
00:35:33
If it's clear from Scripture that human beings do not return to the earth after death to interact with the living, then what could account for, for all the ghost stories and paranormal experiences that so many people across cultures throughout world history, myself included, have?

Neil
00:35:48
Well, once again we ask, what does the Bible say, starting again with Paul In Ephesians 6, verses 11 through 12, he writes, Put on the full armor of God so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

Neil
00:36:03
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, meaning we're not fighting against each other, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Neil
00:36:19
Our battle is against spiritual forces.

Neil
00:36:24
We are to stand firm against the devil, that is Satan and his schemes.

Neil
00:36:28
We fight against the spiritual forces of darkness that are allied with Satan, against God and his word and us as Christians.

Neil
00:36:35
Key words in this passage are scheme.

Neil
00:36:37
The key word in this passage is schemes.

Neil
00:36:40
Satan is a schemer, a deceiver or adversary, and so are those who serve him, his demons.

Neil
00:36:48
We see in 1st John 5:19 that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one world, meaning the world system of ideas, philosophies, teachings and desires.

Neil
00:36:58
And Paul echoes this in Ephesians 2, chapter 2, verse 1, when he states that Satan is the prince of the power of the air and of the Spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, the sons of disobedience being those who are opposed to God and His Word.

Neil
00:37:14
And then Paul, after stating all these things about the spiritual realm and stating that our fight is against the spiritual realm, and also tying in with what John said in first John.

Neil
00:37:25
Satan.

Neil
00:37:26
Satan.

Neil
00:37:27
Wow, that was a slip of the tongue there.

Neil
00:37:30
Paul warns us in 1st Timothy 4, verse 1, after he lays out the qualifications for church leadership and giving an exhortation for how we as Christians should live our lives.

Neil
00:37:41
Paul says that the Spirit explicitly says in latter times that some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

Neil
00:37:52
Satan and his spiritual forces are darkness.

Neil
00:37:55
The demons are deceivers and liars.

Neil
00:37:58
Their whole mission is opposed to God and to oppose Him, His Word and the church.

Neil
00:38:04
And what better way to deceive people than to masquerade as spirits of those who have died, or to masturbate as familiar spirits who can give advice and wisdom through psychics and mediums and sensitive people, or give advice and talk to people who have an interest in the paranormal, who go out in an effort to communicate with these forces in the spiritual world.

Neil
00:38:32
Paul tells us in 2nd Corinthians 11, 14, 15.

Neil
00:38:36
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Neil
00:38:40
Therefore, it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

Neil
00:38:48
Once again, Satan's servants here refer to both living people who are false teachers as well as spiritual forces of darkness.

Neil
00:38:56
His demons.

Neil
00:38:58
These folks, these false teachers and demons can disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, we are told.

Neil
00:39:05
That is, they can deceive people into thinking that they have good intentions and are teaching good things.

Neil
00:39:11
This is why having discernment is critical as a believer and why the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is so important and foundational to this issue.

Neil
00:39:20
While we can learn a good deal about the historical and cultural beliefs in the supernatural by looking at the historical and cultural accounts.

Neil
00:39:29
And while we can learn a fair bit about the person from personal experiences that people have, we do not let those take precedence in shaping our view on them.

Neil
00:39:38
We have to view all those through scripture and scripture alone.

Neil
00:39:44
I know my little, little early on the end, but thank you guys.

Daniel
00:39:52
Okay, let Me over to you, Andrew.

Daniel
00:39:55
Yep, I had to unmute myself and let me go and spring Matthew back in.

Daniel
00:40:02
Remove you and let us go to the next timer.

Daniel
00:40:08
Matthew, you have a 10 minute rebuttal.

Daniel
00:40:10
And, and for folks, just as a reminder for folks who came in in the middle, we are having a debate.

Daniel
00:40:15
The topic is because someone, someone had put the question up saying that I don't think Matthew M is disagreeing that demons are real.

Daniel
00:40:25
Nope, that isn't the issue of the debate.

Daniel
00:40:27
They both agree that some spirits could be demonic.

Daniel
00:40:30
The topic of this debate is on whether ghosts are human spirits.

Daniel
00:40:36
So that is the topic of debate.

Daniel
00:40:37
And if you have questions, please, in the chat, put question colon and then ask your question, give some context because you're listening to it and have the question right now.

Daniel
00:40:48
It doesn't mean that they're going to remember exactly what they were saying when you actually asked the question.

Daniel
00:40:53
So.

Daniel
00:40:53
All right, Matthew, the time is yours for a rebuttal whenever you want to get started.

Andrew
00:41:00
All right, so I just want to point out before I get into the specifics that this is not a debate as to one person arguing from Scripture and one person arguing from experience.

Andrew
00:41:13
Even, you know, I pointed out, I use Scripture and then I inform my understanding of Scripture with, with reason, experience and tradition.

Andrew
00:41:21
And even Daniel himself should admit that his argument is not taught in Scripture.

Andrew
00:41:26
There's nowhere in the Scripture where it says ghosts, appearances of the dead are actually demons.

Andrew
00:41:31
It's an argument of inference.

Andrew
00:41:33
It goes like this.

Andrew
00:41:34
Well, ghosts are a category understood by people in the Bible.

Andrew
00:41:38
Demons are a category of spirit being.

Andrew
00:41:41
Demons are evil.

Andrew
00:41:42
Therefore, maybe demons are masquerading as ghosts.

Andrew
00:41:46
And you can throw in text like, you know, Satan masquerades as an angel of light, but it's not a teaching of Scripture.

Andrew
00:41:51
It's just an inference that you, you've taken and you're trying to fit into Scripture, which may.

Andrew
00:41:57
It's a legitimate approach, but it's not like he's just repeating a scriptural teaching.

Andrew
00:42:02
He's, he's making an inference there.

Andrew
00:42:04
Now in the last debate, we dealt with some of these passages from the Old Testament, Ecclesiastes and Job.

Andrew
00:42:09
Ecclesiastes is, is rather simple.

Andrew
00:42:12
He, he says the writer of Ecclesiastes says things like the dead know nothing and you know, Job says he who goes down to Sheol does not come up.

Andrew
00:42:22
And most people recognize there is a progressive revelation of the afterlife in the Old Testament.

Andrew
00:42:28
You, you won't see a lot of people talking about the intermediate state.

Andrew
00:42:31
You don't have any rich man and Lazarus stories in the Old Testament.

Andrew
00:42:34
Not until you get to the Book of Daniel do you see really vivid afterlife pictures.

Andrew
00:42:40
So Job is talking from his current perspective.

Andrew
00:42:43
And in the same chapter you quoted, he's saying, I'm talking from the bitterness of my soul.

Andrew
00:42:47
He's saying life is.

Andrew
00:42:49
He's, he's very similar to Ecclesiastes right here.

Andrew
00:42:51
He's basically saying, life is all vanity.

Andrew
00:42:54
I'm not going to come back after all this suffering.

Andrew
00:42:57
Likewise, Ecclesiastes, he'll say things like, better than both is he who has not yet been.

Andrew
00:43:01
He says it's better to never have been born than be alive.

Andrew
00:43:04
So I could say the same thing.

Andrew
00:43:06
Oh, well, Solomon, if Solomon's the author of Ecclesiastes, well, Solomon, he's inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Andrew
00:43:12
And he said that it's better to never be born than to be alive.

Andrew
00:43:15
How could he be wrong?

Andrew
00:43:17
Well, this is just a misuse of Scripture.

Andrew
00:43:18
You need to read it in its context.

Andrew
00:43:20
And the later passages of Scripture, especially closer to the New Testament, we, we see a picture of the afterlife that is conscious, it's very active, and it's not reflective of these passages of despair that reflect the mind of the author and giving up.

Andrew
00:43:36
This is.

Andrew
00:43:37
In the last debate, Daniel mentioned that he no longer quotes many passages from the Psalms that talk of a non conscious afterlife because he realizes these just reflect the angst of the writer.

Andrew
00:43:47
They don't reflect God directly teaching on the nature of the afterlife.

Andrew
00:43:51
So Job and Ecclesiastes are, are pretty poor sources to cite as far as debunking the idea that there's an active afterlife or the idea that on some occasions, some spirits may linger.

Andrew
00:44:04
Now we talk about things like Paul saying, let's see, you cited 2nd Corinthians 5, 8 and Philippians 1:23.

Andrew
00:44:15
In the Corinthians passage, we'd rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Andrew
00:44:19
So I will admit this verse is one of the stronger verses that seem to support Daniel's position.

Andrew
00:44:25
So I'm glad he brought it up.

Andrew
00:44:27
But in the first place, this verse, at best, best case scenario, this only rules out Christian ghosts.

Andrew
00:44:35
So yeah, okay, Christians go home to the Lord, but it says nothing about what historically has been called the unquiet dead.

Andrew
00:44:41
But I would even pick apart the idea that this rules out the idea that believers can never come back.

Andrew
00:44:48
So this verse is a true hope for all believers, but it does not automatically preclude any interim time between the punctilia I like that word, punctilia, moment of death and then the reception into the presence of Christ.

Andrew
00:45:03
So I point out even someone as super conservative evangelical, like Billy Graham, he's like, oh yeah, everyone that dies is going to get an angelic escort before they get to Christ.

Andrew
00:45:12
So there's some, there's some kind of interim period that is pretty acceptable.

Andrew
00:45:16
This idea of immediate is like, I call it the beam me up, Scotty view.

Andrew
00:45:21
It's not necessary from the text.

Andrew
00:45:23
And third, this verse also doesn't preclude the idea that a deceased saint, yeah, it could be in the presence of God, but God sends angels periodically to help his people.

Andrew
00:45:33
Why wouldn't he?

Andrew
00:45:34
Why wouldn't God have the freedom to just send down a saint to help people?

Andrew
00:45:38
This was Augustine's view, even though Augustine was skeptical of most ghosts because his idea was, well, if ghosts were real, my mother Monica would be hanging out with me all the time because she loved me that much.

Andrew
00:45:49
So obviously he actually thought most ghostly apparitions were angelic operations, at least like the, the ones that were helpful.

Andrew
00:45:57
He actually has a ghost story in his book Decura Pro Amortuous, where a father appears to his son in a dream and he tells the son, hey, by the way, you know that, that, that debt collector that's after you?

Andrew
00:46:10
Well, I actually paid that debt.

Andrew
00:46:12
And you can find the receipt in X location.

Andrew
00:46:14
The son finds the receipt to that debt and he pays it off and he's all freed.

Andrew
00:46:18
And Augustine's like, huh, maybe that father is caring for his son.

Andrew
00:46:22
But ultimately he decides this is probably just an angelic thing, and it's a, it's a likeness of his father.

Andrew
00:46:27
It's not the real father.

Andrew
00:46:28
But the thing is, with Augustine, he did allow for martyrs in what we call the very special dead.

Andrew
00:46:33
Peter Brown's phrase is the very special dead did have this angelic task at times and could come on a holy errand.

Andrew
00:46:41
So these passages from Paul do nothing to preclude that, and they do nothing to preclude the idea of the unquiet dead or, or people that don't know Christ and have this interim period.

Andrew
00:46:52
You pointed out the parable of Lazarus and Dives, also known as the Lazarus and the rich man.

Andrew
00:46:59
So the argument here is if they do not hear Moses and Lazarus, excuse me, the rich man wants to send Lazarus back to warn his relatives about the judgment in this afterlife parable, this illustration.

Andrew
00:47:13
And he's told, if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced.

Andrew
00:47:18
If someone should Rise from the dead.

Andrew
00:47:19
This is a lesson on belief in hard heartedness.

Andrew
00:47:23
We remember in Matthew chapter 12.

Andrew
00:47:25
I'll read it here.

Andrew
00:47:26
Verse 38 Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.

Andrew
00:47:29
But he answered them.

Andrew
00:47:30
An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Andrew
00:47:36
So does that mean that Christ never performed miracles?

Andrew
00:47:39
And is also, does that mean Christ never performed miracles to engender faith?

Andrew
00:47:43
And we know that he did because many people believe because of his signs.

Andrew
00:47:46
So just as that account in Matthew doesn't rule out the working of miracles, neither does the Luke 16 parable.

Andrew
00:47:52
Even if it's more than just an illustration, neither does that parable rule out the possibility of the dead ever interacting with the living.

Andrew
00:48:01
I wonder if there's any sort.

Andrew
00:48:03
We talked about Hebrews 9, 27 and 28, and I think Daniel, he does bring that up in his book as well, where it says it's appointed to man to die once.

Andrew
00:48:11
And after that comes judgment and the following verse.

Andrew
00:48:14
So Christ having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Andrew
00:48:21
So this passage does teach the principle that we have one life.

Andrew
00:48:26
It teaches that all men die once, although there are exceptions like Enoch and Elijah that didn't die.

Andrew
00:48:32
And there's exceptions like Lazarus who died twice.

Andrew
00:48:34
But leaving that aside, it does not rule out the possibility of ghostly existence.

Andrew
00:48:39
I think it does rule out reincarnation, unless someone were to have a really convincing argument.

Andrew
00:48:45
But I think it does rule out things like reincarnation, but it does not rule out ghost existence for the for an obvious reason.

Andrew
00:48:51
He says it's appointed for man to die once and then comes judgment, just as Christ appeared once and will come again.

Andrew
00:48:58
Well, in the second half of that analogy, there's a 2,000 year gap.

Andrew
00:49:03
So judgment is assured.

Andrew
00:49:04
There's a surety to it.

Andrew
00:49:05
But that doesn't mean that there's nothing in between.

Andrew
00:49:08
Most Christian traditions have held to something called the particular judgment and the final judgment.

Andrew
00:49:13
So I do believe that there is a moment relatively soon after death where you are basically the same way that in our own system.

Andrew
00:49:21
You know, I like to do jail ministry.

Andrew
00:49:23
People get put in the county jail and then they have their court date for their final destination in the same way.

Andrew
00:49:29
And I'm not arguing this is exactly how it is, but there's nothing that precludes the idea that people have an interim period before the final judgment.

Andrew
00:49:36
At the end of cosmic history when everyone comes before the White Throne.

Andrew
00:49:42
You know, we're reading, we're reading the Last Battle, the last Narnia book with our kids right now.

Andrew
00:49:46
And they, they talk about how all these creatures came and they were all judged at once by Aslan.

Andrew
00:49:52
And he said you couldn't tell it.

Andrew
00:49:53
Sometimes it felt like just like an hour.

Andrew
00:49:56
And then other times it felt like it was years long.

Andrew
00:49:58
There's, the whole sense of time is distorted.

Andrew
00:50:00
But anyway, my point is to say simply trying to proof text something like this without being sensitive to what the scripture is actually trying to communicate and using, you know, people just throwing off aside remarks and not actually teaching something directly, it's a very tenuous way to handle the scripture.

Andrew
00:50:17
So I would really, I would really disagree with many of the, the teachings here.

Andrew
00:50:23
I, I'll leave it at that.

Andrew
00:50:25
At that.

Andrew
00:50:25
Right there.

Daniel
00:50:27
Okay, let me bring Daniel in.

Daniel
00:50:32
We got, let me reset the clock for you, Daniel.

Neil
00:50:36
And I'm unmuted this time, so.

Daniel
00:50:39
Yes.

Daniel
00:50:40
So once you start, I will start your clock.

Daniel
00:50:42
You got 10 minute rebuttal.

Neil
00:50:45
Go for it.

Neil
00:50:46
All right, so right off the bat, I do want to agree with something that Matthew said.

Neil
00:50:50
I do agree that the Bible rules out reincarnation.

Neil
00:50:53
The Bible makes, leaves no room for that belief in what it teaches.

Neil
00:50:59
In his opening, Matthew mentions Acts 12 as a passage that supports his view because he says that when Peter appeared at the door, they thought it was his angel.

Neil
00:51:09
And he argues that this is a euphemism for ghost.

Neil
00:51:12
But the Greek word used is angelos, meaning a messenger, a sent one angel.

Neil
00:51:18
And in ancient Jewish belief, they believe that each person had a guardian angel and that immediately after a person's death that that guardian angel would appear.

Neil
00:51:28
Which is why they thought that it was his angel that was at the door and not Peter.

Neil
00:51:35
And I would like to point out that the antiquity of a belief does not make a belief true, nor does one's personal experience, nor does cultural belief.

Neil
00:51:45
For example, just because people believe that the earth was the center of the universe in the medieval time, doesn't make it true.

Neil
00:51:55
And Matthew consistently refers back to the early church fathers and things that they taught to support his view that saints can come back to minister.

Neil
00:52:04
But Augustine and the other church fathers, as great as they are, and as much as we can learn from them, they are not greater than Scripture.

Neil
00:52:15
It's interesting that he argues from what they say to support his view, but he doesn't actually bring up any passages from Scripture that actually talk explicitly about his view, but rather he has to read into the text historical accounts, personal experiences, and cultural beliefs to infer that some that the Bible leaves it open that some people could come back to earth as ghosts.

Neil
00:52:47
And that's why I wanted to lay the foundation that I did in my opening that Scripture is our foundation and we need to view all these experiences and accounts in light of what Scripture teaches.

Neil
00:52:59
Matthew might call it proof texting, but every passage that I brought up deals with the afterlife and talks about the dead and whether or not they have interaction or know anything about the living.

Neil
00:53:12
And while he brings up that in Ecclesiastes that Solomon says the dead know nothing, and he argues that, well, the dead do know things because we're alive, either with Jesus or an eternal torment.

Neil
00:53:26
And Jesus makes it clear that in the afterlife you are conscious.

Neil
00:53:30
In his parable of the rich man and Lazarus, my arguments from the Psalms and from Ecclesiastes there is not that you're unconscious or that you're annihilated when you die, but rather the Bible's teaching that the dead have no knowledge or interaction with the living world.

Neil
00:53:49
And like I said my last debate, I did kind of hyper literalize some of those passages in Psalms to the point where it almost seemed like I was arguing for some sort of unconscious existence, afterlife.

Neil
00:54:01
And that would be incorrect on my part because I don't believe that.

Neil
00:54:05
But Matthew in his book mentions an experience by Rob Dreher, a Christian journalist, where Dreher was experiencing ghostly phenomena.

Neil
00:54:14
And after contacting some experts, they came and supernaturally located an old family portrait of Dro's grandfather Dede, and discerned a message for Dre's father Rey, that Dede cannot move on until Rey forgave him.

Neil
00:54:29
And once Rey forgave him, the priest performed a cleansing ritual and a Eucharist celebration.

Neil
00:54:34
And after this, Dre reported no more phenomena in his house.

Neil
00:54:38
Dreher then states, can I explain this theologically?

Neil
00:54:41
No, not really.

Neil
00:54:42
But I believe I saw the power of a living man's forgiveness free the soul of a dead man trapped by guilt and let him move on into the next life.

Neil
00:54:49
Matthew then states in his book, after some time of reflection, Drea's outlook became my own.

Neil
00:54:55
I may not understand it, but I have a sense that under some circumstances the departed may temporarily become stuck after death, vexed by some unresolved event from their earthly life.

Neil
00:55:07
And the error with this conclusion that he reached here is that he reached it apart from Scripture.

Neil
00:55:12
Nothing that was said was from Scripture.

Neil
00:55:16
It was from personal accounts and the account was subjective.

Neil
00:55:21
He then further solidifies his belief based on the fact that since ancient times people have reported stories of the dead being stuck on earth with unfinished business.

Neil
00:55:31
And then he looks through history at facts concerning ghosts and settles on two categories which are brought up the unquiet dead, which he states are spirits that have unfinished business or who are bent on causing mischief, as well as the blessed dead, which he states is a righteous soul that appears for a specific purpose or holy errand from God.

Neil
00:55:51
And Matthew attempts to defend this holy errand position by saying it has biblical precedent in angelic activity and has been affirmed by Christians of all brands throughout history.

Neil
00:56:01
And that sounds good and all, but he makes a category error here in assuming that since angelic activity takes place on earth, then so too could the spirit of a dead saint partake in a holy errand.

Neil
00:56:12
And he again appeals to history to support this conclusion.

Neil
00:56:18
And while this is excellent historical and journalistic research, it fails to take into account that the Bible does not teach the existence of either of these two categories of spirits.

Neil
00:56:30
He might say that I'm proof texting my position in concluding that it's all demonic.

Neil
00:56:37
But the Bible talks about demons and talks about demons being deceitful and talks about the fact that we are in a war against demons.

Neil
00:56:45
But nowhere does the Bible talk about people getting stuck in the spirit realm between this life and the next.

Neil
00:56:51
Nowhere does it differentiate between unquiet dead or blessed dead and the holy errands.

Neil
00:56:57
Rather, it says that the souls of unbelievers who die go to Hades and await eternal punishment in Luke 16 and that the soul of believers goes immediately to the presence of the Lord, as Paul states and angels are who God uses to minister to believers, not spirits of dead believers.

Neil
00:57:15
We see this in Hebrews 1:13, 14.

Neil
00:57:18
But to which of the angels has God ever said, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet?

Neil
00:57:24
Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

Neil
00:57:32
And considering the whole unfinished business historical theory, there are some major historical implications.

Neil
00:57:39
Wouldn't salvation be of utmost importance concerning unfinished business?

Neil
00:57:43
As if in an if an unbeliever dies, wouldn't it make sense that he would want to finish salvation before he stands before God?

Neil
00:57:51
But it's clear biblically that this life is the only shot that we have at salvation.

Neil
00:57:56
And forgive me, Matthew, if I missed in the last debate or in your book that you take a position against this, because I think I Might remember you saying something about that.

Neil
00:58:06
Secondly, if a believer dies, how would unfinished business on earth take priority over being in the very physical presence of Christ?

Neil
00:58:13
Because Paul says that he desires to be to die and be with Christ, but he knows that he is needed on earth still.

Neil
00:58:20
So why didn't Paul just stick around on earth after he died, since he had unfinished business?

Neil
00:58:28
And why does Paul make distinctions between life and death?

Neil
00:58:31
Thirdly, the Bible has absolutely zero support for sticking around to finish unfinished business.

Neil
00:58:37
And fourthly, theologically, what qualifies as unfinished business?

Neil
00:58:41
And what qualifies a person to stick around to finish whatever that unfinished business is?

Neil
00:58:47
Answers to these questions must come from Scripture if this theory is to be given credibility in his book.

Neil
00:58:55
In the concluding section, dealing with ghosts, Matthew makes another statement in the effort to support his position.

Neil
00:59:03
But he gives credence to the abilities and statements of sensitives, otherwise known as mediums.

Neil
00:59:08
He says, my own personal conclusion is akin to John Wesley's.

Neil
00:59:12
I cannot make perfect sense of ghost within a theological system, but at the same time I cannot deny their existence.

Neil
00:59:18
The wide testimony to the two different types of ghosts, the unquiet dead as well as the blessed dead, is too strong for me to reject.

Neil
00:59:26
Furthermore, the testimony of experienced exorcists, as well as spiritually sensitive individuals who seem to be able to distinguish between demons and ghosts, gives weight to the idea that not all ghosts are demons.

Neil
00:59:38
Well, Matthew has just committed the error of capitulation to phenomena here.

Neil
00:59:42
This is the error of allowing one's doctrine to be determined by phenomena.

Neil
00:59:47
Frederick S.

Neil
00:59:48
Lehigh says this about this.

Neil
00:59:51
The facts cannot be gainsaid, denied.

Neil
00:59:54
So it is decided that they must be accommodated by theology, and therefore theology is adjusted accordingly.

Neil
01:00:00
But is not necessary to do this.

Neil
01:00:02
On the contrary, the Christian should seek to interpret the facts in light of the teaching of Scripture.

Neil
01:00:07
He must not allow phenomena to determine his beliefs.

Neil
01:00:12
So he mentions that he cannot fit ghosts neatly into a theological system.

Neil
01:00:16
But rather than turning to the Bible to seek the understanding of the nature of the afterlife, he bases his conclusions strongly and primarily on historical accounts of the unquiet dead and blessed dead, ghost stories, as well as personal testimonies of exorcists whose whole mission is to deal with demons, who, by the way, are deceiving spirits.

Neil
01:00:36
He also bases it on the testimonies of spiritually sensitive individuals, which are nothing more than psychics and mediums by another name.

Neil
01:00:43
And this is why the doctrine of sola scriptura is so important.

Neil
01:00:46
We must base our views on these on Scripture.

Neil
01:00:50
Thank you.

Daniel
01:00:52
All right.

Daniel
01:00:54
Let me bring us both in and I will reset the clock here for 15 minutes each, starting with Matthew.

Daniel
01:01:00
This is cross examination.

Daniel
01:01:01
Let me explain for the audience how we will be doing this.

Daniel
01:01:05
Both Matthew and Daniel have agreed that this will be 15 minutes for Matthew to ask questions of Daniel, then Daniel asking questions of Matthew.

Daniel
01:01:15
They will have one minute in which to ask a question.

Daniel
01:01:21
That one minute is not actually going to be timed because I'm just gonna, it's gonna be a little harder, but we will get two minutes to.

Daniel
01:01:30
They'll have two minutes to be able to respond.

Daniel
01:01:33
So I, I will be.

Daniel
01:01:36
Although I trying to get the clock to show the one minute.

Daniel
01:01:41
Hello?

Daniel
01:01:46
Why is it not giving me my one minute one?

Daniel
01:01:53
Technical issues, folks.

Daniel
01:01:56
I will say again for folks that if you have questions, I may just have to use my phone as the timer.

Daniel
01:02:02
I don't know why it's not.

Daniel
01:02:07
Let's see.

Daniel
01:02:08
No, that didn't work.

Daniel
01:02:11
All right, I will use my phone as the timer.

Daniel
01:02:15
So.

Daniel
01:02:17
Which makes this kind of hard, but we'll get, we'll get you at least have the 15 minute countdown.

Daniel
01:02:24
So also folks, just realize both Matthew and Daniel were told that if either one of them feels the other person is not actually answering a question, they can call in the moderator, which is me, to stop the clock.

Daniel
01:02:40
And that forces the person to actually answer a question.

Daniel
01:02:45
This prevents people from avoiding to answer and just trying to run the clock.

Daniel
01:02:49
So with that, Matthew, you can start with your first question to Daniel.

Daniel
01:02:54
Daniel.

Andrew
01:02:55
All right, thanks.

Andrew
01:02:57
So, Daniel, would you say that experience informs the experiences behind the reason that you think ghosts are demons?

Neil
01:03:10
No, the Bible is the reason why I think ghosts are demons.

Andrew
01:03:14
Could you explain this statement from your book after you, after you viewed footage of yourself being demonized?

Andrew
01:03:22
You said, this experience opened my eyes to what was out there and showed me that I had no idea what I was dealing with.

Neil
01:03:29
So up until that point, I believed that you had, like you're saying, a difference between some ghosts being the ghosts of humans and also demons.

Neil
01:03:40
And if you look at paranormal investigation today, you will see a lot of investigators that make a clear distinction between the two.

Neil
01:03:47
When that experience happened, it scared the daylights out of me because up until that point, I'd really only had experiences with benevolent spirits.

Neil
01:03:56
And so that experience, when I got demon possessed, it actually forced me to look for ways to protect myself from that happening again.

Neil
01:04:05
And I turned to New age philosophy for that.

Neil
01:04:08
But when God opened my eyes to what the Paranormal was in 2019, that was all demonic.

Neil
01:04:13
When I went back and saw that, I realized what was happening.

Neil
01:04:17
And at that time I realized I wasn't just dealing with ghosts, but this is all demonic.

Neil
01:04:23
So the Bible informed my experience on that, not vice versa.

Andrew
01:04:27
Okay.

Andrew
01:04:28
And to follow up on that, your whole reason for including that story in your book, which is a book teaching people explanations of the paranormal, what would be the reason?

Andrew
01:04:39
Let me phrase it this way.

Andrew
01:04:40
Do you think one of your reasons for including that story is to use an experiential anecdote to provide supplemental evidence for your Bible arguments?

Neil
01:04:51
I used that story in particular because people like hearing about demonic possession.

Neil
01:04:56
And I never told that story before.

Neil
01:04:58
So I knew that if I opened with it opened with a hook that would get people thinking it would keep them interested in the book.

Neil
01:05:07
It was not meant to.

Neil
01:05:10
It was not meant as an oh, I had this experience.

Neil
01:05:12
Now I need to go figure out what demons are.

Neil
01:05:15
Oh, hey, the Bible talks about this.

Neil
01:05:16
No, I hadn't looked at what the Bible said up until that point, and it wasn't for three more years before I looked at what the Bible said.

Neil
01:05:23
So that experience only affirmed my present belief that I had in 2016, that there were demons, but that there were also benevolent spirits.

Neil
01:05:32
And it wasn't until I actually was reading the Bible and saw what the Bible said about the spiritual realm that I realized that it wasn't just that one experience that I had was demonic, but that every single one that I was having was being involved with demons.

Andrew
01:05:47
So.

Andrew
01:05:47
So just to be clear, and this is the last time I'll emphasize it, you would say that experience of being demon possessed had nothing to do with your conclusion that ghosts were demons.

Andrew
01:05:57
It was only the Bible completely divorced.

Neil
01:06:00
Correct.

Neil
01:06:01
That experience pushed me to the new age.

Andrew
01:06:03
So when you were very harsh on my inclusion of the Rod Dreher story as a turning point in my own understanding, something that made me look into the scriptures deeper, you would say I my story is used as evidence, whereas your story is just used as, you know, just a clickbait.

Andrew
01:06:26
I'm just saying, are you seeing a similarity with how we both use an experiential story to introduce a topic, or do you think yours is patently different from the way that I use it from reading yours?

Neil
01:06:40
I believe we both used an experience as clickbait to get people to kind of read further, to understand our positions.

Neil
01:06:49
But from yours, I understood it.

Neil
01:06:51
You read that, and that influenced how you then approached what you read in the Bible concerning the paranormal.

Neil
01:06:56
Whereas mine was just my personal experience I had at that moment and Then years down the road, the Bible influenced how I actually view that experience and viewed all my paranormal experiences.

Andrew
01:07:07
Fair enough.

Andrew
01:07:08
Are you familiar with the term burden of proof?

Neil
01:07:11
Yes.

Andrew
01:07:12
All right, could you, could you just give like a tense 20 second version of what burden of proof means?

Neil
01:07:18
Oh, I hate being asked to define things because I know what they are, but I can never give a good definition.

Neil
01:07:23
The person making a claim for something is the one that has to prove said claim.

Andrew
01:07:28
Yeah.

Andrew
01:07:28
Okay, great.

Andrew
01:07:29
Five seconds.

Andrew
01:07:29
That was even better than I hoped for.

Andrew
01:07:31
So you said there's no explicit teaching in the Bible that people can become ghosts, Correct?

Neil
01:07:38
Correct.

Andrew
01:07:39
Is there an explicit teaching that people cannot become ghosts?

Andrew
01:07:43
That's not an inference argument.

Neil
01:07:47
There is no verse that says people cannot become ghosts.

Neil
01:07:52
No.

Neil
01:07:53
So if that's what you're looking for.

Andrew
01:07:55
Okay, so in your opinion, if the entire, or at least the vast majority of the surrounding cultures of Israel and of the Greco Roman world have a belief in some sort of ghost, with some exceptions, granted, I think some of the Greek philosophers milieu within which the Bible is written.

Andrew
01:08:17
What do you think the burden of proof is if the Bible is not explicit and teaching whether or not people can become ghosts?

Neil
01:08:26
Can you ask that one more time?

Andrew
01:08:28
Sure.

Andrew
01:08:28
Yeah.

Neil
01:08:29
So I'm not trying to.

Andrew
01:08:30
Is the burden of proof on the person that says every ghost is an imposter or is the burden of proof on the person that says yes, the Bible works unless it, it says explicitly otherwise it's working within that ancient supernatural worldview.

Neil
01:08:50
Not quite sure how to answer that question.

Neil
01:08:52
Because the Bible's ultimate goal is salvage redemptive salvation.

Neil
01:08:59
Tracing from the fall of Adam through in the first Adam to salvation through the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

Neil
01:09:06
So there was a lot of things in the world views at that time that the Bible doesn't explicitly address.

Neil
01:09:13
But salvation is that when we die, we go to be with the Lord as believers.

Neil
01:09:19
And everything that you see in the Bible doesn't really leave an opening for there to be a sticking around period on earth for the souls of humans.

Neil
01:09:29
So it does.

Neil
01:09:30
I would say that the Bible does address that, that position implicitly, though not directly or blatantly out in the open.

Andrew
01:09:38
Okay.

Andrew
01:09:39
And I asked you this in the last debate, but just for the benefit of listeners.

Andrew
01:09:43
I reported very short version.

Andrew
01:09:46
There's a scholar named Ben Witherington iii, very well known Wesleyan scholar, and he was struggling with whether or not to continue as a pastor.

Andrew
01:09:54
And I he received a phone call through another parishioner, long story.

Andrew
01:10:00
Basically there was an after death phone call from someone that had just died within his parish in the phone call was encouraging Ben to continue as a pastor.

Andrew
01:10:08
So there's some sort of corroborative information that seems to go beyond just a hallucination or something.

Andrew
01:10:15
And this came to him, and it encouraged him to stay as a pastor.

Andrew
01:10:19
It wasn't the only decision.

Andrew
01:10:21
Do you think that Ben Witherington III took advice from a demon?

Neil
01:10:26
Yes, that would be my position.

Andrew
01:10:29
Okay.

Andrew
01:10:29
All right, Just to be clear.

Andrew
01:10:31
All right.

Andrew
01:10:32
And then you mentioned that.

Andrew
01:10:35
What's your source for saying that?

Andrew
01:10:37
The angel of.

Andrew
01:10:39
Of Peter, or the angel for Peter.

Andrew
01:10:43
What's your source for saying the ancient Jewish belief that an angel shows up to surrounding people at the point of death?

Neil
01:10:51
I read that first in the Holman New Testament Bible commentary, and then I did some other research on it, too.

Neil
01:10:58
I.

Neil
01:10:58
That was years ago.

Neil
01:10:59
I just remember that statement off the top of my head.

Neil
01:11:02
So I don't have.

Neil
01:11:03
And I can't give you the exact.

Andrew
01:11:05
Source, so are you familiar.

Andrew
01:11:07
Next question.

Andrew
01:11:08
Which is related.

Andrew
01:11:09
Are you familiar with the ending of Stephen's speech and what some of the last words were after he gives his speech and he's dying, that he saw.

Neil
01:11:17
The heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.

Andrew
01:11:21
And.

Andrew
01:11:21
See if you can finish the sentence.

Andrew
01:11:23
And his face was like the face of an angel.

Andrew
01:11:26
So I just point that out.

Andrew
01:11:30
I.

Andrew
01:11:31
I guess I shouldn't be making a statement in my cross examination, so I will stop right there.

Andrew
01:11:36
I'll be fair.

Andrew
01:11:37
I'm gonna leave it right there because I don't have anything.

Andrew
01:11:41
That's.

Andrew
01:11:42
That I'm gonna continue drilling down on, so I'll yield the rest.

Daniel
01:11:46
All right, let me restart the clock here.

Daniel
01:11:50
All right, Daniel.

Daniel
01:11:52
And thank you, Matthew, for stopping yourself from making a statement.

Daniel
01:11:56
Good debater.

Daniel
01:11:57
Knew when you were crossing the line.

Daniel
01:12:00
Very good.

Daniel
01:12:01
All right, Daniel, whenever you're ready, I will start the clock.

Neil
01:12:04
Ready and ready when you are.

Neil
01:12:09
So I know I asked these in the last ones, but just for formality and so that the people on Adam's podcast can hear.

Neil
01:12:15
Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?

Andrew
01:12:18
Yes.

Neil
01:12:19
Do you believe that God is truth and that his word is truth?

Andrew
01:12:23
Yes.

Neil
01:12:25
Do you believe that God can lie or contradict himself or his word?

Andrew
01:12:29
No.

Neil
01:12:30
Okay, so how much weight do you give historical evidence and personal experiences and cultural beliefs when understanding a theological topic?

Andrew
01:12:46
So the best way I can picture this, the Wesleyan quadrilateral of the four scripture, reason, tradition, experience.

Andrew
01:12:55
Have you ever hung up a punching bag?

Andrew
01:12:58
Well.

Andrew
01:12:58
Oh, Wait, I'm not supposed to ask questions.

Andrew
01:13:00
A punching bag hangs from the ceiling, has one, let's just call it one hanger.

Andrew
01:13:05
But then to make the punching bag not swing too much, you can attach straps from the bottom to the floor to keep it from getting all crazy.

Andrew
01:13:13
So scripture is the overhead hanger.

Andrew
01:13:16
It's the thing on which you can't have the punching bag.

Andrew
01:13:18
Without it, it is the final court of appeal.

Andrew
01:13:21
But reason, experience and tradition are guardrails and guides for us to help inform and supplement our understanding of scripture.

Andrew
01:13:30
So those are the little straps you tie at the bottom.

Andrew
01:13:33
So scripture does have a.

Andrew
01:13:34
It's called prima scriptura.

Andrew
01:13:36
It has a place of priority.

Andrew
01:13:37
But not every single thing about the world is described in the Bible.

Andrew
01:13:41
So we use our God given reason, Justin Martyr, he called it the sperm Os, sorry, the Logos, spermaticos, the seed of Logos, which is in all of us.

Andrew
01:13:51
We're gifted reason and we all have some natural revelation that we incorporate.

Andrew
01:13:57
So they're supplemental, but they're not over and above scripture.

Neil
01:14:02
Okay, so scripture would be your final court of appeal.

Neil
01:14:07
You say, do you have any, any verses that support the blessed dead?

Andrew
01:14:19
Matthew chapter 17.

Neil
01:14:23
Could you expand on that just a little more?

Andrew
01:14:25
Yeah.

Andrew
01:14:26
So Moses is dead.

Andrew
01:14:27
Elijah never died, so I'm not going to bother citing him.

Andrew
01:14:30
But at least on this one occasion, God saw fit to send down Moses on a.

Andrew
01:14:35
What I would.

Andrew
01:14:35
What has been called a holy errand.

Andrew
01:14:38
And God is free to do so.

Neil
01:14:41
So who did God send Moses down to interact with?

Andrew
01:14:45
Jesus and Peter, although I don't think he spoke to Peter at all.

Neil
01:14:52
Is there any other accounts in the Bible of God sending a dead person back to minister to the living?

Andrew
01:15:00
Not that I'm aware of, no.

Neil
01:15:02
Are there any teachings in the Bible where God says that he will send a person who's died to minister to the living?

Andrew
01:15:14
No.

Andrew
01:15:15
No.

Neil
01:15:18
Are humans and angels the same thing?

Andrew
01:15:21
No, I think humans and angels are two distinct species.

Andrew
01:15:24
However, to bring to bear.

Andrew
01:15:27
What I was getting at in that last question was there was a belief that humans would become angel.

Andrew
01:15:32
Like in the sense of we're going to become part of a heavenly host.

Andrew
01:15:36
And that's why you have statements like that his face became like the face of an angel.

Andrew
01:15:40
And there's almost like that.

Andrew
01:15:42
I guess the term would be apotheosis.

Andrew
01:15:44
There's like a glorification.

Andrew
01:15:46
So we go into a class of the heavenly host.

Andrew
01:15:49
Even though we're not technically the same species as angels, we become like angels.

Andrew
01:15:53
And even Jesus kind of alludes to this when he talks about marriage.

Neil
01:15:58
Okay, thank you for clearing that up.

Neil
01:16:02
Do you have any verse or passage that supports the unquiet dead theory?

Andrew
01:16:09
So the unquiet dead is basically the concept that people linger around for unfinished business.

Andrew
01:16:16
And.

Andrew
01:16:17
No, I don't have.

Andrew
01:16:18
You could.

Andrew
01:16:19
There's a passage in Job where he talks about a spirit gliding past him, but it's way too ambiguous to use.

Andrew
01:16:24
You also have the passages in Isaiah that talk about the rephaim and the metim and the e team.

Andrew
01:16:29
And the E team is the cognate of the Akkadian word etemu, which is.

Andrew
01:16:34
Unambiguously, it means ghost.

Andrew
01:16:35
But again, even the Isaiah passage, it's ambiguous enough where I'm not going to, like, rest my case on that.

Neil
01:16:41
Do you have any passages or scripture that support the spirit of a person getting stuck between this life and the next?

Andrew
01:16:52
Stuck.

Andrew
01:16:54
No, I don't have anything explicit, no.

Neil
01:17:01
Theologically speaking, how would you explain a ghost coming back for unfinished business?

Andrew
01:17:09
So I'm willing to admit this is something that I'm.

Andrew
01:17:13
That I'm open to.

Andrew
01:17:15
I am.

Andrew
01:17:15
I don't want people to think that I'm arguing every single person becomes a ghost for 13 days and then.

Andrew
01:17:21
No, this.

Andrew
01:17:22
It's just something that's been observed universally.

Andrew
01:17:25
And there are common motifs where some, like El Panor in Homer's Odyssey, is not given the proper funeral, so he begs to get the proper funeral.

Andrew
01:17:35
And, you know, Paul had unfinished business is just.

Andrew
01:17:38
It's a way of describing a common motif with ghosts and shows that because there's all these commonalities with ghostly appearances, it shows that there's something objective and not subjective.

Andrew
01:17:49
I'm not trying to explain.

Andrew
01:17:51
I know the exact parameters for what's an unfinished business versus someone that can move.

Andrew
01:17:56
I.

Andrew
01:17:57
That's way beyond me.

Neil
01:18:00
Do you think that a person's ghost can get stuck in this life if they have, like, a violent or sudden death?

Andrew
01:18:07
Yes.

Neil
01:18:09
On what basis?

Andrew
01:18:10
Temporarily.

Neil
01:18:13
Okay.

Neil
01:18:13
On what basis do you make that conclusion?

Andrew
01:18:16
Experience, history and tradition.

Andrew
01:18:18
Unfortunately, I don't have a scripture passage for or against that particular belief.

Neil
01:18:25
Okay, thank you.

Neil
01:18:28
Do you agree that some of the paranormal phenomena and ghosts that we hear about today, that they are of demonic origin?

Andrew
01:18:37
Yeah, like I said, I believe some ghostly apparitions like.

Andrew
01:18:41
Like the.

Andrew
01:18:41
There's false apparitions to many saints, like St.

Andrew
01:18:43
Anthony, St.

Andrew
01:18:44
Gregory of.

Andrew
01:18:45
Of Tours.

Andrew
01:18:46
Sorry, St.

Andrew
01:18:46
Martin of Tours.

Andrew
01:18:47
And I also believe that some level of mysterious psychic functioning exists and people may just hallucinate things like they might.

Andrew
01:18:56
Like have this.

Andrew
01:18:58
They might get supernatural knowledge through psychic functioning and project a ghost.

Andrew
01:19:02
I can't.

Andrew
01:19:03
The reason I'm not inclined to that, but I also can't rule it out.

Andrew
01:19:06
So I'm open to all of the above.

Andrew
01:19:08
And like I said, I can't 100 prove that ghosts exists.

Andrew
01:19:12
I just think my case is more probable based on the principle of phenomenal conservatism.

Neil
01:19:18
Okay, thank you.

Neil
01:19:21
Who do you think psychics and mediums communicate with?

Andrew
01:19:29
All of the above.

Andrew
01:19:30
I mean, there's a really good argument that mediums are just telepathically picking up on information from the sitters and then just like, conjuring up a fake ghost.

Andrew
01:19:39
There was a.

Andrew
01:19:40
A group called the Phillips Circle in Toronto, where they literally created a fake ghost.

Andrew
01:19:45
They gave him a fake birthday, a fake history and everything.

Andrew
01:19:48
And then they started seeing, like, table wraps and all kinds of really bad juju stuff.

Andrew
01:19:53
But this ghost kind of acted on its own, and they created it out of their own projections, even though this guy never existed.

Andrew
01:20:00
So I think mediums could be just using psychic abilities.

Andrew
01:20:03
They could be contacting demons.

Andrew
01:20:05
I'm.

Andrew
01:20:06
I'm very skeptical about any medium that claims they can conjure up a spirit.

Andrew
01:20:11
I'm extremely skeptical of it.

Andrew
01:20:13
Obviously, it's something that is.

Andrew
01:20:14
It's like, how would you rule that out?

Andrew
01:20:16
I don't know, but it's.

Andrew
01:20:18
I.

Andrew
01:20:19
I am in favor of what's in the deliverance manual for the Anglican church, which practices spirit release, where they will do a memorial service or a Eucharist and they'll pray for a spirit to move on, because that's not like conjuring a ghost and trying to get an oracle from it.

Andrew
01:20:35
Necromancy, it's releasing.

Andrew
01:20:37
So I'm.

Andrew
01:20:38
I'm open to that sort of thing.

Neil
01:20:41
So if.

Neil
01:20:43
How would you know that a spirit that shows up to give you a message is on a.

Neil
01:20:48
A blessed mission from God?

Andrew
01:20:51
So you.

Andrew
01:20:52
You have to exercise discernment.

Andrew
01:20:55
If, you know, if a ghost gave me a phone call, you know, if I got a phone call from my deceased grandmother, I would.

Andrew
01:21:04
First of all, I'd be very suspicious, and I would test it against God's word.

Andrew
01:21:10
And, you know, if it's just something like.

Andrew
01:21:13
If it's like, hey, you should move to Canada and.

Andrew
01:21:16
And become a shaman.

Andrew
01:21:17
Well, I would be a little suspicious if it's just something like, hey, you know.

Andrew
01:21:24
Yeah.

Andrew
01:21:24
What would be a generic message from the, hey, you should keep serving the Lord and keep praying and hold true to the end?

Andrew
01:21:29
Well, I'll be like, well, it lines up with a Bible.

Andrew
01:21:31
If it's something in between, it would be harder to determine.

Andrew
01:21:35
Like, hey, if you're, like, if I was contemplating changing careers and I got a call from my dead grandmother about changing careers, well, that I can't tell for or against.

Andrew
01:21:45
I would have to consult with other people, spend a lot of time in prayer, and test the spirits.

Andrew
01:21:50
There's not.

Andrew
01:21:51
Some of those messages would not have an easy answer.

Neil
01:21:54
Okay.

Neil
01:21:56
Do you think that there is a danger in Christians seeking out interactions with the paranormal if they believe that spirits can come back to give them messages from God?

Andrew
01:22:09
Yes, I do believe that.

Andrew
01:22:10
And I also, on the flip side, if you let me just mention this, I think the spiritualist movement and the New Age movement are what my friend Matt Arnold calls the unpaid bills of the church because we immediately rule out all ghostly apparitions as demonic.

Andrew
01:22:28
We're not really seeking to understand what's going on, and people flock to mediums that are more than willing to go down that rabbit hole.

Neil
01:22:37
And I know we kind of discussed this in the last debate, but neither one of us really touched on it here.

Neil
01:22:43
Do you believe Christians should be involved with the paranormal?

Andrew
01:22:48
It depends what you mean.

Andrew
01:22:49
I, I, I study parapsychology.

Andrew
01:22:52
My professor is a Roman Catholic, and I study with some New Age people, some scientists, some evangelical Christians on a scientific level.

Andrew
01:23:02
But if you mean things like, hey, let's go astral project and go, like, spy on these people, which is a whole nother story in itself.

Andrew
01:23:11
I'm not advocating, you know, crystal balls and tarot cards and if that's what you're talking about.

Neil
01:23:16
Okay.

Neil
01:23:17
To specify more, do you think Christians should be going out ghost hunting to try to interact with the spirit world?

Andrew
01:23:23
So I hate the term ghost hunting because no matter what, it's bad.

Andrew
01:23:28
If it's demonstration, you're in for more than you bargained for.

Andrew
01:23:31
If it's human spirits, why are you hunting them?

Andrew
01:23:33
And why are you trying to make an exhibition of them?

Andrew
01:23:35
It's kind of like those exhibitionist exorcists, which I believe in exorcism, but I don't like that stuff.

Andrew
01:23:40
So I think spirit release.

Andrew
01:23:42
There's a book called Requiem Healing, and if you go to mattmcguire.net you'll see a podcast where I, I and my friend Brandon Spain, I think he's watching right now.

Andrew
01:23:51
We interviewed two Anglican priests that would go to haunted locations and they would practice a Eucharist service and pray for the release of the spirit.

Andrew
01:24:00
And many dozens and dozens of People just report the disturbance is ceasing.

Andrew
01:24:06
So I do think the church should have a role there so that people aren't flocking to spiritualist and New age sources to take care of those problems.

Neil
01:24:15
Okay.

Neil
01:24:17
Do you think there is a danger about getting involved in the spiritual world?

Andrew
01:24:22
Yes.

Andrew
01:24:22
In fact, I don't want to keep plugging my stuff.

Andrew
01:24:26
I wrote a three part essay in the last talking about psychic abilities and paranormal stuff.

Andrew
01:24:32
And the third essay was called the Risks of Developing Psychic Abilities.

Andrew
01:24:36
There's a lot of risk when you're starting to open these doors.

Andrew
01:24:40
You really need to be careful.

Andrew
01:24:42
You need to be soaked in God's word, soaked in prayer.

Andrew
01:24:45
If you're going to be involved in any of this sort of stuff because you are vulnerable, if you're not, if you're not spiritually mature, I'd agree with that.

Neil
01:25:00
So just, just to expound on this a little bit more, how would you try to fit ghosts into a theological system?

Andrew
01:25:10
I would say ghosts are part of the intermediate state between death in the final judgment.

Andrew
01:25:16
They can be.

Andrew
01:25:17
They, they don't.

Andrew
01:25:18
Ghosts don't have to be lingering on the earth.

Andrew
01:25:20
They could just be in some other dimension, some sort of Hades or paradise.

Andrew
01:25:26
But it.

Andrew
01:25:27
In either case, it's just one aspect of the intermediate state.

Neil
01:25:32
For a Christian, is it more important to stick around on earth to finish business or would it be more important to be in the presence of our Lord and Savior?

Andrew
01:25:44
I think that's a.

Andrew
01:25:47
That question is.

Andrew
01:25:49
Non sequitur is not the right word, but it would be like saying, you know, if you're an angel, am I allowed to answer a question with a question?

Andrew
01:25:57
Just to illustrate.

Andrew
01:25:58
Is that okay?

Andrew
01:25:58
Andrew?

Daniel
01:25:59
Yeah, I don't wanna.

Andrew
01:26:00
Yeah, okay.

Andrew
01:26:02
That would be like saying to an angel, like, what's more important, worshiping God or going to save someone from being hit by a train?

Andrew
01:26:07
Well, it's like whatever, whatever happens to be the mission at the moment.

Andrew
01:26:12
I mean, why, why can't, like I mentioned the story of the New Testament translator J.B.

Andrew
01:26:17
phillips.

Andrew
01:26:18
He saw the apparition of C.S.

Andrew
01:26:19
lewis a few days after Lewis died.

Andrew
01:26:20
And he got words of encouragement that led to him finishing his translation of the New Testament that has blessed thousands of people.

Andrew
01:26:27
Why?

Andrew
01:26:28
Why?

Andrew
01:26:29
You could say it's more important for CS Lewis to go to God and never.

Andrew
01:26:33
And never do any kind of mission, you know, but like it's, it's a non sequitur or it's a false dichotomy.

Andrew
01:26:38
That's the word I'm looking for.

Andrew
01:26:39
It doesn't have to be either or there could be a purpose in something like that.

Neil
01:26:44
All right, fair enough.

Neil
01:26:45
And time is running out.

Neil
01:26:48
So here's just a fun question for you.

Neil
01:26:51
So for paranormal investigators, they investigate the paranormal, thus the paranormal becomes normal.

Neil
01:26:57
Normal for them.

Neil
01:26:58
So then what would be paranormal to a paranormal investigator?

Andrew
01:27:04
Is that just a rhetorical question?

Neil
01:27:06
That's just rhetorical and kind of for fun since we ran out of time.

Andrew
01:27:09
So real question is pineapple on pizza, yes or no?

Neil
01:27:13
No.

Daniel
01:27:14
Yes.

Daniel
01:27:15
All right, so before we get to closing comments, I'm just gonna have to, you know, call out Matthew here.

Daniel
01:27:23
What do you have against me?

Daniel
01:27:25
You're talking about bad juju.

Daniel
01:27:27
You know, what has everyone got against us Jewish people?

Daniel
01:27:30
You got like, come on, my friend.

Daniel
01:27:35
My friend Justin Peters always says that too.

Daniel
01:27:37
Like, bad juju.

Daniel
01:27:37
I'm like, what?

Daniel
01:27:38
What I do?

Daniel
01:27:41
All right.

Daniel
01:27:41
Daniel wanted to see you laugh at least once during the show.

Daniel
01:27:45
I told him that we would make that happen.

Andrew
01:27:48
I'll have to get a more culturally sensitive term.

Andrew
01:27:51
All right.

Daniel
01:27:55
Hey, look, you know, when people are looking to be offended, they can find it everywhere.

Daniel
01:27:58
Right.

Daniel
01:27:59
All right, we're going to get to the closing.

Daniel
01:28:02
Closing arguments, which will start with.

Daniel
01:28:05
With Matthew, and he will have five minutes.

Daniel
01:28:09
So, Matthew, whenever you're ready, I will start the clock when you start speaking.

Andrew
01:28:15
All right, so again, I just want to point out that I don't think my case can be 100% proven.

Andrew
01:28:22
I think it's more probable than not that the scriptures assume this universal human experience that people have observed from all centuries and all cultures.

Andrew
01:28:32
And there's nothing explicit in the Bible that rules it out.

Andrew
01:28:36
There are some ambiguous passages in the Old Testament which really reveal more about the progressive revelation of the afterlife than they do about ruling out ghosts.

Andrew
01:28:48
And so based based on that, no, no passages against it.

Andrew
01:28:53
And based on universal human experience, based on reason and based on tradition, which there's a long history of this, I think that ghosts are part of the intermediate state.

Andrew
01:29:03
And just to wrap up some of the final questions that were brought up.

Andrew
01:29:12
So what Daniel advocates is he believes the Bible teaches what I call the.

Andrew
01:29:18
Or what my friend Matt Arnold calls this straight up, straight down view where as soon as you die, you're immediately like.

Andrew
01:29:25
Teleport would be a pedestrian word, but basically that's it.

Andrew
01:29:28
You're teleported to some far away place.

Andrew
01:29:30
But I would point out that that's a very flat reading of scripture.

Andrew
01:29:36
Let's just take, for example, the.

Andrew
01:29:38
The very likely probability that when Paul was stoned, he experienced a near death experience.

Andrew
01:29:44
And this may be what he describes in Second Corinthians where he says, whether I was in the body or out of the body, I do not know.

Andrew
01:29:49
And he went into the third heaven and he saw many majestic things and then he returned to tell us about it.

Andrew
01:29:55
And there's a lot of crossover with the modern literature on near death experiences.

Andrew
01:30:00
So it's not ironclad, but there's, there's good phenomenological evidence for that because of the similarities of his experience in this and what we read about in near death experience literature.

Andrew
01:30:11
And I would also say just, just from a, again, I'm going to use experience here, so watch out.

Andrew
01:30:17
But my own wife, when she had an emergency surgery, hemorrhaged a whole lot of blood and she exited her body and hovered above it and watched things going on for a while and then returned to her body.

Andrew
01:30:29
So I can't prove that she was dead.

Andrew
01:30:32
I mean, maybe this was a, like some sort of really advanced hallucination while she was passing out.

Andrew
01:30:37
It's, it's possible.

Andrew
01:30:38
I can't rule it out because she didn't have what we call corroborative information.

Andrew
01:30:42
But this happens to people all over the world.

Andrew
01:30:45
It is insanely common.

Andrew
01:30:47
And if you, if you read chapter seven of my book, you, you'll see the literature in the, the resources to back that up.

Andrew
01:30:53
So I only bring that up to say a lot of people will die and leave their body and linger around.

Andrew
01:30:58
And some of those other cases, they really do see things that they couldn't have seen otherwise.

Andrew
01:31:03
So am I to attribute this to, you know, demonic intervention?

Andrew
01:31:07
Because, you know, the Bible says you go immediately up or you go immediately down.

Andrew
01:31:12
I just think instead of just blinding our eyes to the obvious experience in front of us, we should go, hey, maybe I'm just reading scripture a little bit too flat.

Andrew
01:31:23
Maybe I'm just, you know, over literalizing, as Daniel himself put it earlier.

Andrew
01:31:29
I think that's what's going on here is there's a real fear and there's a healthy fear of people getting involved with the paranormal and getting obsessed with contacting dead spirits, which I do not approve of.

Andrew
01:31:39
I, I think the biblical prohibitions on necromancy still stand, but I think there's, there's a motivation there, and historically as well, with, with the polemics against the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, there's a lot of motivations there that are tilting our interpretation of scripture to call, call all ghosts demons instead of just, you know, seeing what's in front of us and making fair sense of it.

Andrew
01:32:05
That's I'll yield the rest of my minute.

Daniel
01:32:09
Okay, let me bring Daniel back back in.

Daniel
01:32:14
I'll put you backstage.

Daniel
01:32:16
Danielle, I will restart the clock and you give your closing comments.

Neil
01:32:22
Go for it.

Neil
01:32:26
So then, what are ghosts and how do we account for paranormal activity from a biblical perspective?

Neil
01:32:32
Well, if you've seen a ghost, it's really either one of two things.

Neil
01:32:36
One, you're attributing something to a ghost that is natural and you just do not know what it was, or two it is a demon pretending to be the ghost of a dead person.

Neil
01:32:47
Concerning option one Ghost stories in the paranormal have become one of the most popular subjects for Hollywood television program Internet videos, social media and pop culture in general.

Neil
01:32:59
Just about everyone and their great aunt twice removed on their mother's side has heard a ghost story or seen a paranormal related video.

Neil
01:33:07
With this mass assault of paranormal media on us, we are becoming accustomed to watching for things that are out of the ordinary and we are becoming aware of when we are in situations that mirror what we have seen or read about in paranormal shows and stories.

Neil
01:33:23
Thus, when something happens that we can't immediately explain as natural, our brains quickly attribute it to being a ghost or something paranormal.

Neil
01:33:31
As our brains connect what just happened to us with a ghost story or paranormal show or horror movie that we have read or watched that is similar to the situation that we are currently in.

Neil
01:33:42
I believe this is the main reason there are so many claims of people having experienced paranormal activity today.

Neil
01:33:49
Concerning option two demons are fallen angels.

Neil
01:33:52
We see this in Revelation 12:4.

Neil
01:33:55
As such, they are superhuman and supernatural entities.

Neil
01:33:59
When you look in the Bible and see what angels are capable of doing, you see that they can manifest as human like beings.

Neil
01:34:05
They can move objects, they can speak to us so that we can hear, and irregardless of what language we speak and much more.

Neil
01:34:14
Thus, since demons are fallen angels, they have those abilities as well.

Neil
01:34:18
Demons though have a more malicious intent behind what they do.

Neil
01:34:22
They follow the will of Satan and they attempt to deceive people and keep non Christians from turning to God and keep Christians from following God's will.

Neil
01:34:30
And what better way of doing this than by pretending to be the spirit of a dead person?

Neil
01:34:34
The demon can convince a non Christian that it is possible for a person to become a ghost when they die, then that implies to that person that the Bible is wrong about there being only two outcomes to death, either going to Hades or paradise, heaven or Hell.

Neil
01:34:50
Thus the non Christian will now more or less seek other answers to what happens after we die and reject the Bible as in their minds they are convinced that ghosts are real.

Neil
01:34:59
If a demon can get a Christian to believe that a person can stick around as a ghost after they die, then that Christian will no longer be truly believe in what God tells us in the Bible and is on a slippery dangerous slope of becoming more focused on paranormal paranormal phenomena than in studying the Bible, praying and living to the glory of God.

Neil
01:35:18
A Christian who gives credence to the belief that ghosts can be spirits of the dead of dead humans really doesn't help to point a non believer to God and His word.

Neil
01:35:27
Rather, his supporter ghost will ultimately push that unbeliever further and further into the world of the paranormal and occult, thus justifying their belief in ghosts being the spirits of dead people.

Neil
01:35:40
This is why I say sola Scriptura Scripture alone.

Neil
01:35:43
We are to stand fast on the Bible, examine all by the Bible and reject all that does not align with the Bible.

Neil
01:35:50
While historical understandings, cultural context, personal experiences are all useful, they are not the authority in our life.

Neil
01:35:58
The Bible in no way, shape or form teaches a category of the blessed dead that God will send a spirit of a dead saint back to earth on a holy errand to minister to a living believer.

Neil
01:36:08
The Bible also in no way, shape or form teaches a category of the restless dead who have unfinished business who are bent on causing mischief.

Neil
01:36:16
While Matthew accuses me of proof, texting scripture and reading Scripture flatly in my cross examination of him, he even admits that he has no verses or passages that support the blessed dead, the unquiet dead, unfinished business or spirits getting stuck on earth between this life and the next.

Neil
01:36:33
Whereas I can provide Scripture for my positions and I did rather we see clearly taught in Scripture what we see clearly taught in Scripture is that the spirit of a believer goes immediately into the presence of God upon death and the spirit of the unbeliever goes immediately into a place of torment.

Neil
01:36:50
We also can see that concerning the spiritual realm, the only entities that interact with our world are angels and demons.

Neil
01:36:56
Angels do the work of God, demons fight against the work of God.

Neil
01:37:01
As J.C.

Neil
01:37:02
ryle said, the true Christian was intended by Christ to prove all things by the word of God.

Neil
01:37:06
All churches, all ministers, all teaching, all preaching, all doctrines, all sermons, all writings, all opinions, all practices.

Neil
01:37:12
These are his marching orders.

Neil
01:37:14
Prove all by the Word of God, Measure all by the measure of the Bible.

Neil
01:37:17
Compare all with the standards of the Bible, Weigh in all balances of the Bible, Examine all by the light of the Bible, test On the crucible of the Bible, that which can abide by the fire of the Bible, receive, hold, believe, and obey.

Neil
01:37:29
That which cannot abide by the fire of the Bible, reject, refuse, repudiate, and cast away.

Neil
01:37:34
This is the standard which Wycliffe raised in England.

Neil
01:37:36
This is the flag which he nailed to the mast.

Neil
01:37:38
You may never be lowered.

Daniel
01:37:40
All right, I do appreciate it.

Daniel
01:37:43
Sorry I had to cut you off there.

Daniel
01:37:45
Just for the record, I never had to cut Matthew off.

Daniel
01:37:48
He was early on, just saying.

Neil
01:37:50
I went over twice on Matthew on Adam's podcast, too.

Neil
01:37:54
So that was my biggest challenge.

Daniel
01:37:55
Let me bring Adam back in and just look.

Daniel
01:38:00
Blake actually solves this whole debate, okay?

Daniel
01:38:03
Proves that Matthew is right here.

Daniel
01:38:05
Here we go.

Daniel
01:38:05
Here's the comment Ghosts he defines as the person who doesn't respond to your text messages.

Daniel
01:38:11
There you go.

Daniel
01:38:12
Blake just solved the dilemma.

Andrew
01:38:16
That's awesome.

Daniel
01:38:19
All right, so we want to get to questions that we had.

Daniel
01:38:27
I'm just trying to see what Adam had said.

Daniel
01:38:31
Are you bringing me in?

Daniel
01:38:32
Yeah.

Daniel
01:38:32
So, Adam, I'm bringing you back into.

Adam
01:38:34
Sorry, I wasn't sure.

Adam
01:38:35
I wasn't sure.

Daniel
01:38:36
Just read that.

Daniel
01:38:37
So sorry about that.

Daniel
01:38:39
I.

Daniel
01:38:39
I have.

Daniel
01:38:40
And Brewster is backstage.

Daniel
01:38:42
Aaron, I'm going to jump right to the questions right away.

Daniel
01:38:47
Don't disappear, because I do want you to be able to give an update on your situation so folks can know.

Daniel
01:38:53
And I'll just say up front, thanks for the person who donated $150 during this show for the Brewsters and helping them out.

Daniel
01:39:01
We'll mention that again at the end.

Daniel
01:39:03
So I just want to get some of the questions that came up for you guys.

Daniel
01:39:06
Matthew, I'm gonna, if it's okay with you, direct all the questions that I could find that are directed to you first, because I know you have to go with a young family there at home.

Daniel
01:39:18
So is that all right with you?

Daniel
01:39:21
And then we will direct questions to Daniel after, if there's.

Daniel
01:39:25
If there's time.

Daniel
01:39:25
And some of them were not directed specifically to a person.

Daniel
01:39:30
So let me see.

Daniel
01:39:34
Let me just put this one up.

Daniel
01:39:36
That came up.

Daniel
01:39:37
And it would be for each of you, what would be the purpose of God allowing the souls of dead people to linger on earth?

Daniel
01:39:45
It was more directed to you, Matthew, but I'll give you two minutes to answer, and then if you want to have a response.

Daniel
01:39:53
Daniel, go for it.

Daniel
01:39:55
Matthew.

Andrew
01:39:55
Yeah, that's a great question.

Andrew
01:39:57
Thank you, Deneen, for asking that.

Andrew
01:39:59
And I think that's one of the things we scratch our heads of when these ghostly encounters happen.

Andrew
01:40:05
So I Wasn't able to unpack it totally in the debate, but in, in the, the 50 pages I wrote on ghosts in my book, I distinguished the, the church's historic understanding of the unquiet dead and the blessed dead.

Andrew
01:40:18
The unquiet dead are typically people that are troubled at the time of death, and the blessed dead are examples of saints that come down for a holy mission.

Andrew
01:40:27
So I think the, the lingering thing is more associ.

Andrew
01:40:31
Call the unquiet dead.

Andrew
01:40:32
And as I said earlier, the, the idea of the intermediate state for people that are in what we call Hades or, or the underworld or the intermediate afterlife, there's a lot of different terms you could use for.

Andrew
01:40:45
It is sort of a holding place before the final judgment.

Andrew
01:40:48
So we don't know exactly what that looks like in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which is one of the only pictures we get, and we're not sure how much is symbolic and how much is literal.

Andrew
01:40:58
The rich man is undergoing torment and he, you know, he wants his family.

Andrew
01:41:03
He's.

Andrew
01:41:04
He's anxious about his family and this and that.

Andrew
01:41:06
So why would it.

Andrew
01:41:09
I guess I would answer that with, with asking why do they have to be in some far away holding place?

Andrew
01:41:15
Why.

Andrew
01:41:15
Why couldn't they be suffering, observing what's going on in the world?

Andrew
01:41:19
And, and I think the, the super spirits are supernatural beings and that we overlap with them.

Andrew
01:41:25
Angels interact with us sometimes.

Andrew
01:41:27
So perhaps spirits can interact.

Andrew
01:41:29
I don't know if, you know, I don't.

Andrew
01:41:32
I don't have a really great answer for that.

Andrew
01:41:35
And I can see why that would be.

Andrew
01:41:38
That would be someone resisting the whole idea and throwing it out the window, because I can't think of a good reason why God would set it up this way.

Andrew
01:41:46
But there's a lot of things in the world that.

Andrew
01:41:48
Why would God allow this?

Andrew
01:41:49
Or why would God set.

Andrew
01:41:51
Why would God set it up so Adam's sin made us all fall into sin?

Andrew
01:41:54
You know, I don't know the answer, but I, I don't think that that rules out ghosts.

Daniel
01:42:01
Daniel, do you want to respond in one minute?

Daniel
01:42:05
Sure.

Neil
01:42:05
You don't have to have a very simple response.

Neil
01:42:08
Biblically speaking, I don't see any purpose of God allowing the souls of dead people to linger on earth.

Neil
01:42:13
The Bible makes it clear that we as believers go to be with the presence of the Lord when we die.

Neil
01:42:18
And the unbeliever gets kept in a place of torment, Hades, the underworld, until the final judgment.

Daniel
01:42:27
All right, so I'm gonna.

Daniel
01:42:29
I think you said that this is from A friend of yours, Matthew Brandon Spain, said, wouldn't I think Sadducee see all the supernatural as superstition?

Andrew
01:42:44
Yes.

Andrew
01:42:45
Oh, well, thank you, Brandon, for watching.

Andrew
01:42:47
He's.

Andrew
01:42:47
He's.

Andrew
01:42:48
He interviewed these Anglican Deliverance ministers with me.

Andrew
01:42:53
So he's a good friend.

Andrew
01:42:54
So it's interesting he brings that up.

Andrew
01:42:56
I think the answer is yes.

Andrew
01:42:57
And in fact, at the time of the Restoration in England, ghosts were used by people like Richard Baxter to debunk all of the Sadducees, the Sadduceeism, where people were starting to.

Andrew
01:43:09
Starting to doubt spirits and doubt the Bible.

Andrew
01:43:12
And he's like, well, we know the Bible's true because of spirits like ghosts.

Andrew
01:43:15
So, yeah, Sadducees would.

Andrew
01:43:17
Would debunk all of supernatural, including angels and ghosts as superstition.

Neil
01:43:23
They'd also debunk demons too.

Neil
01:43:25
They didn't have any supernatural worldview.

Andrew
01:43:27
Although I would.

Andrew
01:43:28
Sorry, if I can just say one little thing, there's debate as to whether Sadducees believed in angels.

Andrew
01:43:34
I actually think they did believe in some angels.

Andrew
01:43:36
Just.

Andrew
01:43:37
I don't want to get into this long thing, but basically, when it says Sadducees don't believe in the spirit or the resurrection or angels, sometimes it's understood as resurrection, as angels or like angels.

Andrew
01:43:50
So there is some debate about that, but they certainly did not believe in a conscious afterlife for humans.

Daniel
01:43:57
Yep.

Daniel
01:43:57
All right.

Daniel
01:43:58
Not sure if there's much debate within Judaism on that, but.

Daniel
01:44:03
But yeah, so this one came up up earlier and this is when you were talking Matthew, so I think it was directed to you.

Daniel
01:44:11
They thought John was the ghost of John.

Daniel
01:44:16
I think they meant Jesus was the ghost of John when he came.

Daniel
01:44:19
When he came to a door.

Daniel
01:44:20
Why?

Daniel
01:44:20
Oh, no.

Daniel
01:44:21
They thought John was the ghost of John when he came to door.

Daniel
01:44:23
Maybe they're thinking Peter was the ghost of Peter.

Daniel
01:44:26
I think he might be thinking Peter.

Neil
01:44:28
Matthew mentioned Acts 12, so I think they meant Peter.

Daniel
01:44:31
Yeah, maybe.

Daniel
01:44:33
Let's assume Peter, unless he's commenting live and can tell us if he actually meant John, but let's assume Peter and Matthew.

Daniel
01:44:41
I'll let you respond first.

Andrew
01:44:45
I'm assuming he means Peter at the door.

Andrew
01:44:49
So I'm just gonna pull up what I say about this passage and.

Daniel
01:44:58
And while you, while you're pulling that up, Matthew, please make sure that you send me the link to your notes so that I can include that in the show.

Daniel
01:45:06
Notes.

Daniel
01:45:06
And for folks, I will be including the podcast, the Bold Apologia Podcast, where they did their first debate since they kept referring to that so you can see where Adam Parker is the moderator of that debate.

Daniel
01:45:22
And, and my just, my suggestion is while you're there, maybe follow Bold Apology, a podcast, and check out some of their other episodes.

Andrew
01:45:32
Okay, I, I, I pulled it up.

Andrew
01:45:33
Thank you for that.

Daniel
01:45:34
And like I said, it's all really good, you know.

Andrew
01:45:38
Mattmcguire.net you'll see right on the left hand side, my notes for the debate.

Andrew
01:45:42
Easy.

Andrew
01:45:42
So this is what Dale Allison, he's a New Testament scholar at Princeton.

Andrew
01:45:46
Don't hold that against him.

Andrew
01:45:47
And he says, although this could refer to Peter's guardian angel, it's possible.

Andrew
01:45:53
It's equally possible that angel here means his departed spirit.

Andrew
01:45:57
Some early Christians, when hearing that Stephen's face became right before his death like that of an angel, might have supposed that he was turning into an angel or like an angel.

Andrew
01:46:05
Furthermore, the martyrdom of Polycarp, which comes from the second century, claims that in the hour of their martyrdom, certain martyrs were no longer human, but already angels.

Andrew
01:46:16
So there's this belief that people become angels, or at least angel, like in at the time of their deaths.

Andrew
01:46:22
Therefore, that's the reason we would look at this phrase, his angel, and, and understand it as euphemism for his ghost.

Andrew
01:46:28
But again, I don't claim that's ironclad proof.

Andrew
01:46:30
I just think the weight of the evidence is, is probably that interpretation.

Daniel
01:46:37
Daniel, do you want to respond at all?

Neil
01:46:41
No, I don't really have any response to that.

Daniel
01:46:43
That's fine.

Neil
01:46:44
Did a good job covering that.

Daniel
01:46:46
So this is again, Matthew from your friend Brandon.

Daniel
01:46:51
Brandon said, and I tried to grab these questions, sometimes they lose context, but he just said, but how do we interpret without those tools?

Daniel
01:47:01
I'm not sure which tools he was referring to at the time.

Andrew
01:47:05
I think, is he referring to reason and experience?

Daniel
01:47:09
I'm thinking that it might be when you guys were talking.

Daniel
01:47:12
Experience.

Neil
01:47:12
Experience or the Wesleyan quadrilateral.

Neil
01:47:16
Yeah.

Daniel
01:47:17
So, Brandon, let's put it this way.

Daniel
01:47:19
We'll, we'll table this one.

Daniel
01:47:20
Brandon, if you are still in the chat, just maybe give some context to that.

Daniel
01:47:26
This was a question.

Daniel
01:47:30
Okay.

Daniel
01:47:30
This was a question for you, Matthew.

Daniel
01:47:33
Are Roman Catholics correct in praying to Mary and the saints, since you believe they can hear us?

Andrew
01:47:42
So I'm, I'm not there.

Andrew
01:47:44
I can't approve of what Roman Catholics do.

Andrew
01:47:47
I know.

Andrew
01:47:47
My, my, the closest I can get is my friend Matt Arnold.

Andrew
01:47:52
He says he will say he'll like pass along a message and ask, ask God to have the message sent along to them.

Andrew
01:48:00
And we actually talked about this in our last debate, Daniel, where I've told people in ministry and I.

Andrew
01:48:08
I've dealt with people that are involved in very tragic, tragic deaths of either loved ones or other people close to them.

Andrew
01:48:16
And I've said, you know what?

Andrew
01:48:17
I don't know if they're gonna get the message, but you can pray to Jesus and say, jesus, if it's okay, can you pass this message?

Andrew
01:48:24
I don't.

Andrew
01:48:25
I don't know if that does anything, but I think that's okay.

Andrew
01:48:28
Obviously, I'm not.

Andrew
01:48:29
I'm not a Roman Catholic, and I don't.

Andrew
01:48:31
I don't.

Andrew
01:48:32
I'm not there as far as praying to the saints or even some Anglo Catholics would do it, but I'm not there.

Daniel
01:48:39
Daniel, any response?

Neil
01:48:42
I don't think they can hear us when we pray to them.

Neil
01:48:45
We're only ever directed in scripture to pray to God.

Neil
01:48:48
So I would disagree that they are correct in that position.

Andrew
01:48:51
Right.

Andrew
01:48:51
And I want to clarify.

Andrew
01:48:52
I'm not saying all the.

Andrew
01:48:54
The deceased are omnipresent.

Daniel
01:48:58
Yes.

Daniel
01:48:58
And I think that actually was a different question that we had come up.

Daniel
01:49:02
Adam, it looked like you might have wanted to say something on that.

Daniel
01:49:05
Were you.

Adam
01:49:06
I.

Adam
01:49:08
There.

Daniel
01:49:08
There?

Adam
01:49:08
Were you guys made the clarification?

Adam
01:49:10
I wanted to help Matt out because I figured there's some people.

Adam
01:49:14
I've got.

Adam
01:49:14
I've just got to say there's some people in the comments here who, if they can misunderstand what Matt is saying, they will.

Adam
01:49:23
And it's kind of interesting to see.

Adam
01:49:26
I.

Adam
01:49:28
Denino kind of has my attention here in the chat.

Adam
01:49:32
She's like.

Adam
01:49:33
She's like, is Matt a Roman Catholic?

Andrew
01:49:36
She.

Daniel
01:49:36
She did ask that, and he answered it.

Daniel
01:49:38
So there we go.

Adam
01:49:38
Yep.

Adam
01:49:39
And.

Adam
01:49:39
And then.

Adam
01:49:40
And then he says he had a Roman Catholic professor.

Adam
01:49:43
And she's like, see, he must be a Roman Catholic.

Adam
01:49:46
And she.

Daniel
01:49:48
I think that's what got her to ask if he's wrong.

Daniel
01:49:50
She first.

Daniel
01:49:50
She first mentioned the Roman Catholic.

Daniel
01:49:52
Oh, yeah.

Adam
01:49:55
Was the question that came first.

Adam
01:49:57
And then it was, is Matt a Roman Catholic?

Adam
01:50:00
And that or no.

Adam
01:50:01
Then it was c.

Adam
01:50:04
I.

Adam
01:50:04
Something like, I knew it.

Adam
01:50:06
And then she asked if he was a Roman Catholic.

Adam
01:50:08
And I think Brandon, Spain kind of.

Adam
01:50:09
Well, I don't clarify.

Daniel
01:50:11
And I don't know if Brandon was busting on her or going after her, saying guilt by associated.

Daniel
01:50:16
He made a comment about me being friends with Justin, Justin Peters, and said, oh, I see, that explains a lot or something.

Daniel
01:50:21
So I.

Daniel
01:50:22
I haven't gotten the clarification.

Adam
01:50:23
Was trying to do.

Adam
01:50:24
There was kind of point out the problem with what Deneen was doing there.

Adam
01:50:29
And it.

Adam
01:50:30
And it is a problem logically.

Adam
01:50:32
You know, and obviously, this is a debate.

Adam
01:50:34
And let's say Denine was arguing that as.

Adam
01:50:38
As her perspective.

Adam
01:50:39
Like, aha.

Adam
01:50:41
Matt had a Roman Catholic professor.

Adam
01:50:44
Therefore, he believes that Mary can hear your prayers.

Adam
01:50:48
And actually, that's a really bad argument.

Daniel
01:50:51
That's actually a question that humble Clay asked.

Daniel
01:50:54
Can Mary hear all the prayers in all languages all around the globe?

Daniel
01:51:00
So I'll start with you, Matthew.

Daniel
01:51:02
What do you think?

Andrew
01:51:03
Is that a question for me?

Daniel
01:51:04
Well, since.

Daniel
01:51:06
Since Daniel just said quickly no.

Andrew
01:51:09
Yeah.

Andrew
01:51:09
I would just answer no.

Daniel
01:51:10
Yeah, I.

Daniel
01:51:11
I would agree.

Neil
01:51:12
Yeah.

Adam
01:51:13
That's kind of a.

Daniel
01:51:14
That's one of the arguments I have against Catholicism.

Daniel
01:51:17
Oh, by the way, I have to put this one up just because it was funny.

Daniel
01:51:20
Matthew's comment.

Daniel
01:51:21
But Vincent says a frozen juju.

Daniel
01:51:24
Andrew Rapaport for Matthew and.

Daniel
01:51:27
And actually for all you guys that may not get it.

Daniel
01:51:31
Aaron Brewster gets it in the background.

Daniel
01:51:33
I do cold plunges.

Daniel
01:51:34
I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning when it'll be 14 degrees outside and I will be in a cold plunge.

Daniel
01:51:40
So that is the frozen juju part.

Daniel
01:51:44
Not the bad juju, but the frozen juju.

Andrew
01:51:46
He spelled juju wrong.

Daniel
01:51:47
Yeah, I know.

Daniel
01:51:49
And it did.

Daniel
01:51:50
It did snow today.

Daniel
01:51:51
So I will be going out into the snow, into the cold plunge.

Adam
01:51:55
So, yeah, he's trying not to trigger YouTube.

Adam
01:51:58
YouTube algorithm.

Daniel
01:52:01
Yeah, I.

Daniel
01:52:02
I have a Facebook.

Daniel
01:52:05
I got.

Daniel
01:52:05
I got an, you know, blah.

Daniel
01:52:08
Like a week I couldn't post on Facebook for commenting to a fellow Brazilian jiu jitsu artist that I was gonna choke him out, and I got accused of violence.

Daniel
01:52:22
It's like, this is just something we do in jiu jitsu.

Daniel
01:52:25
We.

Daniel
01:52:25
We.

Daniel
01:52:25
We choke people.

Daniel
01:52:27
Like, it's.

Daniel
01:52:28
It wasn't violent.

Daniel
01:52:29
It's.

Adam
01:52:32
I had a similar thing with Facebook a couple years ago.

Adam
01:52:35
It's.

Adam
01:52:35
It's different.

Adam
01:52:36
But, you know, I.

Adam
01:52:38
I shared a.

Adam
01:52:40
I was talking with someone in a comment section.

Adam
01:52:42
We were just jabbing back and forth, and.

Adam
01:52:44
And I sent this picture of a big dog and a little dog, and I said, you're the little dog.

Adam
01:52:49
And this Facebook, like, cut me off for, like, three days because I called him a dog.

Adam
01:52:57
Well, a little dog.

Daniel
01:52:58
Hey, now.

Andrew
01:52:59
Now.

Adam
01:52:59
So offensive.

Daniel
01:53:00
Now that they admit that they actually were censoring when they said they weren't.

Daniel
01:53:05
You know, now it's all good, right?

Daniel
01:53:06
I mean, I know.

Daniel
01:53:08
I still don't think.

Neil
01:53:08
Absolutely.

Adam
01:53:09
I want retroactive amnesty.

Daniel
01:53:11
I don't think they're gonna Go back and unmark my me.

Daniel
01:53:15
So let me look.

Daniel
01:53:17
There was another one from Brandon, Spain.

Daniel
01:53:20
And I want to put this one up.

Daniel
01:53:22
So I think, Daniel, this one may be more for you, but I wanted to do it while Matthew is here, so I'll ask it of you.

Daniel
01:53:28
Brandon says, could one not be in the presence of the Lord on earth?

Daniel
01:53:35
Does that not cut into the doctrine of omniscience?

Neil
01:53:41
Omnipresence.

Daniel
01:53:42
Omnipresence, sorry, big difference.

Daniel
01:53:44
But it was.

Daniel
01:53:45
That wasn't as bad as, you know, referring to Paul as Satan.

Daniel
01:53:48
So I kind of like that.

Neil
01:53:52
Of course you remembered that.

Neil
01:53:53
I.

Daniel
01:53:53
Well, actually I.

Daniel
01:53:54
I remembered it because I was thinking of editing that out, but now I can't because, you know, that comment would just.

Daniel
01:54:02
So I'll let you start with that one, Daniel.

Neil
01:54:06
I mean, well, the Bible tells us we are in the presence of the Lord here on earth as believers.

Neil
01:54:12
We are the spirit of the holy Temple.

Neil
01:54:14
Christ dwells in us, so we are in his presence.

Neil
01:54:17
He is omnipresent.

Neil
01:54:19
So we're in his presence.

Neil
01:54:20
But death is going to be physically present with him, not just spiritually present as we are now.

Daniel
01:54:29
Matthew, any response?

Andrew
01:54:31
Yeah, I think what the question is getting at is if you can admit the fact that you can be in the presence of the Lord in some sense God is with you as a Christian, then the fact that, let's say you're C.S.

Andrew
01:54:46
lewis appearing to J.B.

Andrew
01:54:47
phillips.

Andrew
01:54:49
It's not like he's out of the presence of the Lord, like, it's the verse that Paul says to depart and be with the Lord does not exclude the idea of doing something on earth.

Andrew
01:55:00
So I think that's what the question is getting at.

Neil
01:55:03
I just have a hard time when Paul makes a clear distinction between being present physically in the body on earth, to do things on earth, as opposed to being present with the Lord in heaven.

Neil
01:55:15
He makes.

Neil
01:55:16
He makes a clear distinction there.

Neil
01:55:18
And he doesn't qualify it as still being able to stay in and help out on earth.

Neil
01:55:23
So it just seems odd to me that your.

Neil
01:55:26
Your view on that.

Neil
01:55:27
But.

Adam
01:55:28
Well, can I just jump in there on that?

Adam
01:55:30
Because I just think we see.

Adam
01:55:31
We see something interesting in Jonah right away.

Adam
01:55:36
God gives Jonah this seemingly impossible command, and rather than going north to Nineveh, he goes south to Joppa.

Adam
01:55:48
And it says that he went to flee from the presence of the Lord.

Adam
01:55:51
And it's obvious that, you know, like Psalm 139 says, where can I go from your spirit?

Adam
01:55:58
Where can I flee from your presence if I, you know, go Here, you're there.

Adam
01:56:02
If I go to the depths, you're there.

Adam
01:56:06
Could it be that this.

Adam
01:56:10
This idea of.

Adam
01:56:12
Of the presence of God, that there are moments in history, in salvation history.

Adam
01:56:19
Let's take even, for example, when God, with his two angels, shows up to meet with Abraham, he's in the presence of the Lord more than Jonah was in the presence of the Lord when he was in rebellion in that boat.

Adam
01:56:34
And so I think there's a lot of hyperbolic speech that goes into it with this, but theologically, you can never be outside of the presence of the Lord because he is omnipresent.

Adam
01:56:49
But I think this ties closely in with what you're saying there, Daniel.

Adam
01:56:54
Spiritually, you can step away from the presence of the Lord.

Adam
01:56:57
One can.

Adam
01:56:58
One can be in rebellion like Jonah was.

Adam
01:57:01
And.

Adam
01:57:01
And it's actually said that Jews believed that the presence of God was distinctly tied to the land of Israel because that was where the covenant was.

Adam
01:57:12
And so by fleeing away from the presence of the Lord, you've got Jonah.

Adam
01:57:18
He fl.

Adam
01:57:18
Flees down to Joppa, gets into the boat, and he's going to Tarshish, which was believed to be the furthest point west.

Adam
01:57:26
So he's trying to get as far away, spiritually speaking, from God as possible.

Adam
01:57:31
And so in that sense, I understand the idea of being outside of the presence of the Lord spiritually, while at the same time, you can't be outside of the presence of the Lord.

Adam
01:57:43
It's.

Adam
01:57:44
It's kind of a.

Adam
01:57:46
A hard thing to wrap your mind around, but I see a lot to that.

Daniel
01:57:51
All right, let's see if we can get to the rest of these.

Daniel
01:57:53
I know, Matthew, you do have to go.

Daniel
01:57:55
Whenever you have to go, let me know.

Daniel
01:57:58
I know.

Daniel
01:58:01
Let me see.

Daniel
01:58:01
I think this was more to you, Daniel.

Daniel
01:58:03
So I'll ask it of you and then give it to Matthew.

Daniel
01:58:06
Kathy says Jesus said that there was a.

Daniel
01:58:09
This is dealing with the.

Daniel
01:58:11
And I'm going to give away my position.

Daniel
01:58:13
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Daniel
01:58:17
We could debate that sometime, maybe someone.

Daniel
01:58:20
But Jesus said there was a great gulf fixed that you cannot pass over.

Daniel
01:58:25
What did that mean?

Daniel
01:58:27
And is not superstition involved in much of ghost speculation?

Daniel
01:58:32
So I'll start with.

Daniel
01:58:33
I think that was.

Daniel
01:58:34
This question came up down, Daniel, while you're speaking.

Daniel
01:58:37
So I'll start with you and then let Matthew respond.

Neil
01:58:41
Okay.

Neil
01:58:42
And I do agree it's a parable, but I also agree that there are spiritual truths that we can glean from parables.

Neil
01:58:48
And Kathy is correct because it says that the rich man also died and was buried in Hades.

Neil
01:58:54
He lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away.

Neil
01:58:57
And Lazarus in his bosom cried out, said, father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I'm in agony in this flame.

Neil
01:59:07
But Abraham said, child, remember, in real life you receive good things, Lazarus bad.

Neil
01:59:12
Now he is comforted here you're in agony.

Neil
01:59:14
Then Abraham says in Jesus's parable, so Jesus speaking, and besides all this between us and you, there is a great chasm fixed or a great gulf, depending on translation, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.

Neil
01:59:31
So Jesus in the parable is.

Neil
01:59:33
Is teaching that there's a gulf separating those who believe the righteous dead from the who are in Abraham's bosom, in paradise, and in the presence of God on one side versus the unrighteous, the unbelievers who are being held in Hades until the resurrection and their ultimate destiny in hell.

Neil
01:59:55
So that's what's being taught in that passage.

Neil
01:59:59
And I do agree that there is a lot of superstition that goes into much of the ghost speculation.

Neil
02:00:06
I think I talked about that in my closing statement.

Neil
02:00:09
We are so inundated with stories about ghosts, the media, Hollywood movies, social media, that oftentimes if you're sitting in your house by yourself and you hear two knocking sounds, most likely it's the house settling, the wind blowing up against the house, something natural.

Neil
02:00:27
But because we're so inundated with this belief in the paranormal, first off, your mind's gonna probably think that it's a ghost or something in the house with you that's made those sounds.

Neil
02:00:37
So I do agree that there's a lot of superstition that that goes into a lot of the paranormal beliefs.

Daniel
02:00:43
Matthew.

Andrew
02:00:45
Yep, I agree with what Daniel said.

Andrew
02:00:47
The gulf is between compartments of the afterlife, not between the afterlife and the earth.

Andrew
02:00:53
Although, again, it's just.

Andrew
02:00:55
I don't know how much of that should be taken literally and how much is just a teaching moment.

Daniel
02:01:00
Okay, let's see.

Daniel
02:01:06
This was asked a couple of times, and I think it was when you were speaking, Matthew, but he kept asking, what are they dying, though?

Daniel
02:01:15
And which death, physical or spiritual?

Daniel
02:01:18
So as you guys kept mentioning death, a little bit of the context was missing in it.

Daniel
02:01:24
But I think what he was asking is, when you speak of death, are you speaking of physical death or spiritual death?

Daniel
02:01:30
I Think was the question.

Daniel
02:01:32
I'm trying to read into the question.

Daniel
02:01:34
Not all of them.

Andrew
02:01:35
I'm not sure I understand the question.

Daniel
02:01:36
Yeah.

Daniel
02:01:38
All right, so then we'll pass on that one.

Daniel
02:01:45
Let's see, this one doesn't have much context either.

Daniel
02:01:47
I know Adam wanted to address.

Daniel
02:01:50
Said that we should address this, that this person had said familiar spirits.

Daniel
02:01:56
Not familiar spirits, demons.

Daniel
02:02:00
Adam, I'll just ask you.

Daniel
02:02:02
This wasn't really a question, but you were like, we should address this.

Daniel
02:02:05
So.

Adam
02:02:06
Yeah, I just.

Adam
02:02:07
I suspect that he misunderstood what was being said with regard to demons, I believe, Matt, you were saying something at the beginning of your opening statement, and I just wanted to see if you were wanting to clarify what you were saying as far as familiar or familial spirits.

Andrew
02:02:31
I don't think I mentioned familiar spirits.

Adam
02:02:34
Okay.

Andrew
02:02:34
But if you have a specific question I could answer.

Adam
02:02:37
He said this during your monologue, so I was under the impression that he was responding to or trying to refute something you said.

Adam
02:02:45
I'm so.

Daniel
02:02:46
It wasn't really.

Daniel
02:02:47
Yeah, there wasn't specifically a question to it.

Daniel
02:02:50
So.

Adam
02:02:51
Yeah.

Daniel
02:02:51
All right, so this was.

Daniel
02:02:53
Again, sorry about this, but context.

Daniel
02:02:58
Brandon had asked this question of Daniel, but I don't know the con.

Daniel
02:03:02
He just said, how did God call you out of that?

Adam
02:03:05
Yeah, it was.

Adam
02:03:06
It was being called out of paranormal.

Daniel
02:03:08
Yeah, that's what I.

Daniel
02:03:08
That's what I was assuming.

Daniel
02:03:09
So I will.

Daniel
02:03:10
I don't know that Matthew will have much of a comment on this, but he might.

Daniel
02:03:13
So, Daniel.

Neil
02:03:15
So, yeah, this was in my opening statement when I said I was a ghost hunter paranormal investigator for about 10 years before God called me out of that.

Neil
02:03:22
Well, in 2019, I was having a talk with my boss at the time.

Neil
02:03:26
He knew I was a paranormal investigator, but also that I called myself a Christian, and he was asking me questions about the paranormal.

Neil
02:03:33
And I talked at paranormal conferences.

Neil
02:03:35
I talked at horror film festivals.

Neil
02:03:38
I'd written articles on this.

Neil
02:03:40
I'd made many videos and documentaries on this and considered myself an expert.

Neil
02:03:45
Even gotten degrees and certified as a certified paranormal investigator.

Neil
02:03:49
But all the questions my boss asked, I kept responding with like, we think it's this.

Neil
02:03:54
It could be this.

Neil
02:03:54
There's this theory.

Neil
02:03:55
There's that theory.

Neil
02:03:56
Some people think this.

Neil
02:03:58
I had no actual answer for him.

Neil
02:04:00
And that got me thinking.

Neil
02:04:03
It's like, whoa, how can I be an expert on this if I don't actually have an answer for him?

Neil
02:04:07
It's all just speculation at this point.

Neil
02:04:10
And he kind of realized that too, and laughed and went, well, that's why you keep going out there, isn't it?

Neil
02:04:15
I said, yeah, that's why we keep going out to find answers.

Neil
02:04:18
But in 10 years I had no answers.

Neil
02:04:21
Well then he asked, what are ghosts?

Neil
02:04:23
And so I dove right back into all the different, the categories and 30s at the time.

Neil
02:04:28
It could be the spirits of dead people, they could just be trapped here.

Neil
02:04:32
It could be this, could be that.

Neil
02:04:33
And then out of the blue I blurted out, and it could all be demons.

Neil
02:04:37
And now that was a position I hadn't thought about in forever.

Neil
02:04:41
That was one that my buddy Dylan and I, back when he started the team had kind of ruled out as just the Christian way of saying, well, paranormal, bad, all demons.

Neil
02:04:51
But even when I talked to some Christians about it, they didn't have answers as to why they said that.

Neil
02:04:57
So that just came out of the blue.

Neil
02:04:59
And that got me thinking, well, what are demons?

Neil
02:05:02
Well, demons are angels or fallen angels.

Neil
02:05:05
Well where do I know that from the Bible?

Neil
02:05:07
It's like, okay, well let's look at the Bible about what the Bible says about angels and demons and see if that adds up at all.

Neil
02:05:16
And as soon as I opened up the Bible and started reading the Bible and seeing what it had to say, it started answering questions left and right that I had been seeking about the paranormal from secular sources and from personal first hand experiences and in 10 years had gotten no answers.

Neil
02:05:33
And right there in the pages of The Bible, all 66 books, I was getting answers.

Neil
02:05:39
So that's how God called me out of that, using his word.

Daniel
02:05:42
Okay, Matthew, I doubt that you have much to comment on that because.

Daniel
02:05:46
All right, so down to two.

Daniel
02:05:48
And then I'm going to bring Aaron in one.

Daniel
02:05:50
That I don't think that that isn't for you guys, but I'll answer.

Daniel
02:05:54
So Kathy is asking, has God confused us about his ability over souls or the human bodies at death?

Daniel
02:06:02
And this was during when you were speaking there, Matthew.

Daniel
02:06:05
So I think it's directed to you.

Daniel
02:06:09
I'm not sure if it's a.

Daniel
02:06:11
Again, some of the questions are not always, always super clear.

Andrew
02:06:16
Sorry, I was just reading the chat.

Andrew
02:06:18
Yeah, I can see why people would make that inference.

Andrew
02:06:21
And Daniel earlier said, well if people believe ghosts then they're going to think the Bible's untrue.

Andrew
02:06:26
When I would just say that's like someone that believes, like Harold Camping and his followers that thought, hey, I've looked at all the passages.

Andrew
02:06:34
Christ is coming back in 2009 and when Christ doesn't come back, they abandon their faith.

Andrew
02:06:38
Why would you say you Just had a wrong interpretation of the Bible to begin with.

Daniel
02:06:43
Okay, Daniel, any response to this?

Neil
02:06:47
I would say no because God makes it clear what happens to our souls and our body at death and what will happen at the end of the resurrection when we get our glorified bodies for us as believers or for unbelievers, eternal torment in their bodies.

Daniel
02:07:01
Okay, one, one last question that we have here.

Daniel
02:07:04
I'm going to answer it.

Daniel
02:07:05
I, I start it because I'm going to be the one to answer this.

Daniel
02:07:08
So you guys are off the hook.

Daniel
02:07:09
And then after that, I know Matthew's going to end up having ghosts and we'll bring Aaron in, but I just could not let this one go.

Daniel
02:07:17
Bob Leander said, God's word doesn't give full revelation about the spirit realm.

Daniel
02:07:23
This is when you were talking Daniel, he said example.

Daniel
02:07:26
Very practically speaking, there are many very effective Christian deliverance ministries who use extra biblical deliverance techniques.

Daniel
02:07:35
And he gave an example of some like Heidi Baker.

Daniel
02:07:38
So let me be really clear.

Daniel
02:07:40
We will probably have in February Jim Osmond, who is working on his book on the the these deliverance ministries and deep demon hunters.

Daniel
02:07:50
They use extra biblical deliverance techniques because they are doing non biblical.

Daniel
02:07:57
In fact, let me be more specific, unbiblical things.

Daniel
02:08:00
Heidi Baker is a heretic.

Daniel
02:08:02
If she's your example, you need to repent.

Daniel
02:08:06
Bob, first off, she shouldn't be teaching in the first place as a woman according to scripture.

Daniel
02:08:13
But what you see with the demon hunters and what they're doing, they are.

Daniel
02:08:21
You start looking into their theology and there is, it is filled with heresy.

Daniel
02:08:26
And we will get into.

Daniel
02:08:28
We're going to do a whole episode on that in February with Jim Osman.

Daniel
02:08:31
His book should be coming out probably this year.

Daniel
02:08:35
I'm thinking where he's going to be diving into to this, this.

Daniel
02:08:40
But if you want to dig more into this, you could look up the works.

Daniel
02:08:45
Jim Osmond has a lot on this and so does Justin Peters.

Daniel
02:08:49
I don't have a, don't want to get into a whole show on that.

Daniel
02:08:53
Figured you guys, that's not really a question for you guys.

Daniel
02:08:55
It was more something that someone put in the, the comment and see so you mentioned that and now you get someone.

Daniel
02:09:02
Blake says, can a woman have a gift of teaching?

Daniel
02:09:05
Yes.

Daniel
02:09:05
She could teach children, she could teach women.

Daniel
02:09:07
She could teach outside the church.

Daniel
02:09:09
But inside the church, Peter, sorry Paul is clear.

Daniel
02:09:15
See, mixing up Paul and Peter is not as bad as Paul and Judas.

Daniel
02:09:20
Just saying.

Daniel
02:09:23
I thought I'd get a joke, laugh at Daniel for that.

Daniel
02:09:26
But you know, but yeah, so I just, I don't think that women should be teaching the church.

Daniel
02:09:32
So with that, I want to thank both of you.

Daniel
02:09:35
There wasn't any name calling other than when Matthew said that I was a bad juju, but I don't think he even knew that I was Jewish when he said it and didn't get the joke anyway, so.

Daniel
02:09:46
But I do want to thank both of you for a very civil debate, very informative debate.

Daniel
02:09:50
I think that either way, you gave people a lot to think about, a lot to discuss.

Daniel
02:09:54
So I think that's helpful.

Daniel
02:09:56
I will have links to both of your books and to Daniel.

Daniel
02:10:01
I'll have your ministry link in as well.

Daniel
02:10:03
Of course, I'll put in the Bold Apologia podcast and the first debate you had.

Daniel
02:10:09
So I'll just let you guys, I'll start with Matthew.

Daniel
02:10:11
Any closing comments you'd like to make before you get going?

Andrew
02:10:15
So just thanks again.

Andrew
02:10:17
I really enjoy discussing back and forth.

Andrew
02:10:20
Daniel's very, he's a good faith Christian and I'm glad we can have a friendly talk about it.

Andrew
02:10:26
If anyone's interested in seeing my writing, I'm easy to find Matt McGuire.net and I'm easy to get a hold of in contact.

Andrew
02:10:33
So feel free to reach out through email.

Andrew
02:10:36
And thanks again.

Daniel
02:10:38
Thank you very much for coming in, Matt, and you're always welcome back on Apologex Live.

Daniel
02:10:42
Any other Thursday night that we're not doing a formal debate, you can always come in, ask questions or bring up top topics for discussion.

Daniel
02:10:48
So thanks for coming in.

Daniel
02:10:49
I know you got to get to your family.

Daniel
02:10:51
Daniel, any closing comments you want to make?

Daniel
02:10:53
And.

Neil
02:10:55
I just want to thank everybody for tuning in.

Neil
02:10:58
I know Matthew just ghosted us, disappeared before I could say anything to him.

Daniel
02:11:05
Well, he didn't quite see, he's, he's actually still, he's actually there, you know, he just, he took his camera off so he knew you were going to accuse him of being ghosting you.

Daniel
02:11:14
So he.

Daniel
02:11:16
There, there you go.

Neil
02:11:17
Being live on here and being gone.

Daniel
02:11:20
Now he officially ghosted you.

Daniel
02:11:21
Look, he just vanished.

Daniel
02:11:24
Touche for Matthew.

Daniel
02:11:26
Very good.

Adam
02:11:27
Hey, see, ghosts really are real.

Neil
02:11:29
Love it, Love it.

Neil
02:11:31
But Matthew, thank you for being a very, a very gracious and friendly debater.

Neil
02:11:36
I greatly appreciate that this was a very congenial and gracious debate and that we both agree on a lot of the essentials, I would say on all the essentials about Christianity and theology, especially the gospel.

Neil
02:11:50
So this was not, not in any way, shape or form trying to accuse either one of us of being heretics.

Neil
02:11:55
Just a, a tertiary issue that we had some disagreements on.

Neil
02:12:00
And his views gave me a lot to think about and forced me to, to study my position further to make sure I understood what I stood on and my position.

Neil
02:12:09
And I thank him for that.

Neil
02:12:11
I think Adam for hosting us first and Andrew for having us back on too.

Neil
02:12:16
And I've, I've had a lot of fun and I hope everybody listening was blessed by this.

Neil
02:12:22
And if you guys have questions for me, I'm easy to get in contact with as well.

Neil
02:12:26
Just search 612ministries on Google.

Neil
02:12:29
You can find my website, you can find me on Facebook and I'd be happy to answer any questions that other people have.

Daniel
02:12:36
All right.

Daniel
02:12:37
And before we get to Aaron, which we are going to get to Darren because I do want to get an update for folks and people have been asking for an update on his situation.

Daniel
02:12:45
So Adam, give, give folks a little bit about what your podcast is about and you know, more than just the one debate that you did.

Daniel
02:12:54
I know you did a great one where you had different people of different apologetic views and the presuppositionalist one.

Adam
02:13:03
Yes, yes.

Adam
02:13:04
So for those listening that particular, I guess you could call it, it.

Adam
02:13:11
Well, it was more of a discussion.

Daniel
02:13:13
It was discussion and we took normal like this.

Daniel
02:13:15
What we ended up doing was jumping off of that and we actually did with, with all of your guests except for me.

Daniel
02:13:21
I, I ended up pulling in one of our speakers, Dan Kraft, to do pre sub.

Daniel
02:13:26
And so yeah, that was, we ended up expanding on that and that was.

Adam
02:13:30
A really good discussion.

Adam
02:13:31
And, and so the Bold Apology, a podcast is a podcast.

Adam
02:13:35
It's apologetics based but we get into a lot of theology on my podcast as well as church history and other topics.

Adam
02:13:44
We deal with things like Church hurt and, and what is that?

Adam
02:13:48
And so getting into things like that where you can probably, where really the idea is to provide answers and responses and, and hope for people who have questions.

Adam
02:14:02
And so that is the, the gist of it.

Adam
02:14:06
I've had some really cool guests on.

Adam
02:14:08
I don't know if anyone's ever heard of Phil Dozer from Deuteronomy.

Adam
02:14:12
He came on for an episode.

Adam
02:14:14
He, we talked about Mormonism in that one.

Adam
02:14:18
I've had Troy Frazier from Revive Thoughts and, and he did a great podcast on church history with me there.

Adam
02:14:27
And obviously we've had a really great person to have on a podcast is Dr.

Adam
02:14:35
Donald Williams.

Adam
02:14:36
He's a prolific writer and he actually was part of that discussion that we had the apologetic methodologies.

Adam
02:14:45
And he represented the cumulative case for Christian apologetics.

Adam
02:14:50
And he's come on and he's talked about the resurrection.

Adam
02:14:53
We did a defense of Christmas, a defense of Easter with him.

Adam
02:14:57
And he also, though not being a presuppositional apologist, he did a really good job at explaining in one podcast the basics of what precept is.

Adam
02:15:09
So just a podcast that is a tool for believers and, and trying to go at it in a conversational way, bringing people on the podcast and doing it in a way that will be interesting for people to listen and hear what, what, what is being said.

Daniel
02:15:28
So I've always said that a good, a good apologist will be able to argue a position that he does not hold to and do it it in a way that someone that holds to it can say amen.

Daniel
02:15:41
Yes, that's, that's a skill that not enough people do.

Daniel
02:15:45
So, Aaron Brewster, you came in late because you're just tardy.

Daniel
02:15:52
Aaron actually teaches on Thursday nights, but.

Matthew
02:15:55
Sometimes I have to be tardy.

Daniel
02:15:57
Yeah, he teaches on Thursday nights and so he's got to come in late.

Daniel
02:16:00
But Aaron, we did mention at the beginning about the situation.

Daniel
02:16:05
I gave folks a little bit of an update as far as the fact that we were able to raise the money to replace your H vac system with the hurricane.

Daniel
02:16:14
We know that now that there's, you know, million dollar Hollywood star homes burning up that no one even knows what, you know, North Carolina is.

Daniel
02:16:22
And that hurricane, that's old news.

Daniel
02:16:24
There was, you know, that was before an election.

Daniel
02:16:26
So, but, but people may not realize that you're kind of still struggling there.

Daniel
02:16:31
So give us an update.

Daniel
02:16:34
You know, I know we, we, we just were able to send you like another, I think it was close to $2,000 for, for helping with some of the mold.

Daniel
02:16:43
And we just actually during this program got someone that donated anonymously, another 150.

Daniel
02:16:47
So what is an update on your, on the situation there with, with your family and the house situation?

Matthew
02:16:56
First of all, thanks for asking, thanks for telling people about it.

Matthew
02:16:59
And to everyone who's been praying and has been giving, thank you very much.

Matthew
02:17:04
The situation.

Matthew
02:17:05
Well, good news.

Matthew
02:17:07
Yesterday was a marked a step in a different direction.

Matthew
02:17:13
For the first time in three months, I was able to remove something from my garage and put it back into the basement where it originally was pre flood.

Matthew
02:17:27
We finally got in the basement to probably about 95% where it needs to be.

Matthew
02:17:34
So I was able to start putting things back down there.

Matthew
02:17:39
We still have a lot of personal possessions that are sitting in our backyard.

Matthew
02:17:44
The example that I use is my wife's china that she inherited from her grandmother.

Matthew
02:17:50
I asked her.

Matthew
02:17:51
I've asked her a number of different occasions, do we want to.

Matthew
02:17:54
We want to bring those in because, you know, whatever.

Matthew
02:17:56
And she says, no, honestly, they're.

Matthew
02:17:58
They're just as safe there as they would be anywhere else we could put them right now.

Matthew
02:18:01
And we don't have any space left in the.

Matthew
02:18:03
In the garage or in the house.

Matthew
02:18:05
So that's been sitting out there.

Matthew
02:18:08
All of my.

Matthew
02:18:09
A bunch of other stuff that was there in the basement, just sitting, you know, in the backyard still.

Matthew
02:18:15
So the fact that we were able to actually get something back into that space and to start that process was really very encouraging.

Matthew
02:18:24
We kind of had a mini celebration last night, so that was nice.

Matthew
02:18:30
Financially speaking, there are still a number of needs, a number of things left to be done, a number of places where we haven't cut corners, but we've had to.

Matthew
02:18:40
To take the less preferential route.

Matthew
02:18:46
Just because the money hasn't always been there, it's not going to be at the end of the world.

Matthew
02:18:51
It's not that way.

Matthew
02:18:53
But certain things that we're waiting until we have the opportunity to put in the right amount.

Matthew
02:18:59
For example, we had a couple humidifiers, dehumidifiers, excuse me, running underneath down in the basement.

Matthew
02:19:07
And they were just ones that you go to Lowe's or wherever and you buy, but they are.

Matthew
02:19:12
They're not.

Matthew
02:19:12
They can't keep up with that continual usage.

Matthew
02:19:15
And we had issues with the drainage and so on and so forth.

Matthew
02:19:18
So getting.

Matthew
02:19:18
Investing in a good dehumidifier that can continually work in that space is far better than just burning through cheap ones.

Daniel
02:19:30
So things like that, I can.

Daniel
02:19:31
I can recommend one.

Daniel
02:19:32
I have one of my basement.

Daniel
02:19:33
It took me a while to find one that was good.

Daniel
02:19:36
So I'll tell you after.

Neil
02:19:37
Good.

Matthew
02:19:39
Send that, because we're looking.

Matthew
02:19:43
So we are praising the Lord again, obviously, because what we've experienced is far greater than what we deserve.

Matthew
02:19:52
Far better off than many people experienced.

Matthew
02:19:56
And we're very thankful to him how he's using you guys to be.

Matthew
02:19:59
To help us in this situation.

Matthew
02:20:02
And we are just trusting him day by day, taking that next step.

Matthew
02:20:05
I project that.

Matthew
02:20:07
As much as it pains me to say this, in my flesh, I'm trying to trust the Lord that His will, his best.

Matthew
02:20:13
It could be potentially six months, six more months, total of nine months before I could actually honestly say, okay, we're back to where we were, minus the things that were lost and can't be replaced.

Matthew
02:20:33
We could say, you know, all of our belongings are where they're supposed to be.

Matthew
02:20:37
Everything is where it was before.

Matthew
02:20:40
All of this started in October.

Matthew
02:20:41
So Lord willing, it won't take another six months.

Matthew
02:20:45
But one of the issues that we have is that a lot of these jobs, I'm the only one here in the family house, can do it.

Matthew
02:20:51
My daughter does a great job.

Matthew
02:20:52
She helps me out.

Matthew
02:20:53
My son's in college right now, so he can't be here for that.

Matthew
02:20:58
And everyone else in my family has medical restrictions that keep them from being able to help.

Matthew
02:21:03
So it's just gonna be a slow process of kind of building back.

Matthew
02:21:07
Yeah.

Matthew
02:21:08
Please continue to pray, and if the Lord has made it possible for you, please, please continue to give so that we can not have to.

Matthew
02:21:19
To go into debt to finalize this and get everything back where it needs to be.

Daniel
02:21:24
Yeah.

Daniel
02:21:25
So, folks, Again, it is GiveSendGo.com SF if you want to help support the Brewsters.

Daniel
02:21:32
This is an opportunity for us as Christians to help a brother in need.

Daniel
02:21:38
So if there's anything you could do.

Daniel
02:21:39
We have raised about close.

Daniel
02:21:41
Getting close to $13,000 for them out of the, like, 50 that we need.

Daniel
02:21:49
They're still having a lot of debt in, you know, as he's mentioning, a lot to pay for to get the.

Daniel
02:21:57
It was interesting talking to Aaron, you know, get too graphic, but you don't think about when floods come into the house, what else is in the flood water, like oil, the sewage that was backed up, and now all of that is in your house.

Daniel
02:22:16
And so it's.

Daniel
02:22:17
It's not just, oh, the water dissipates.

Daniel
02:22:21
It dissipates and leaves behind way more than just water and may way more than you'd want.

Daniel
02:22:27
And.

Daniel
02:22:27
And so there's all that plus the mold now and things like that, and as you mentioned, health issues and some of the health issues with the mold.

Daniel
02:22:35
So.

Daniel
02:22:36
So it's.

Daniel
02:22:36
It's quite costly to get that taken care of.

Daniel
02:22:42
So, you know, if anyone can help.

Matthew
02:22:44
Out, it's funny that you.

Daniel
02:22:46
Go ahead.

Matthew
02:22:48
I'll just say it was funny that you mentioned that I had a kind of a humorous conversation.

Matthew
02:22:53
It was that.

Matthew
02:22:53
It was one of those pathetically humorous conversations with my mom yesterday.

Matthew
02:22:58
I had gotten a number of things.

Matthew
02:23:00
Everything that we got out of the backyard that came out, you know, it was in the backyard had to be cleaned off and then put into the garage.

Matthew
02:23:08
But a lot of the things that were left in the backyard, we didn't go through that.

Matthew
02:23:12
Extra step to clean.

Matthew
02:23:14
Not entirely.

Matthew
02:23:16
And so she and I were, we still have a little bit of snow here and we were talking about, you know, what is it going to take to actually to clean this up the way it should be cleaned before it's put back into the basement.

Matthew
02:23:27
And she and I were like, maybe we're just lazy.

Matthew
02:23:30
Maybe we've just kind of given up.

Matthew
02:23:32
Maybe we don't care anymore.

Matthew
02:23:34
But some of this stuff, like, maybe we can put it back without having to like, because, because it, to get to clean this stuff off, you can't just hose it off with a regular hose.

Matthew
02:23:42
You either need to use a pressure washer or you have to get out there with a scrub brush and you have to wash it off.

Andrew
02:23:48
It's so weird.

Matthew
02:23:48
It's like it just looks like dirt, but it will not come off with just water.

Matthew
02:23:54
It has to be scrubbed.

Matthew
02:23:56
And so for things like that.

Matthew
02:23:58
So if my mom and I were both just sitting there feeling like, okay, maybe we're just, we've just kind of getting to the point where we've almost given up.

Matthew
02:24:03
We're willing to put some of this stuff back into the space without completely.

Daniel
02:24:07
Cleaning it or just throw it out.

Daniel
02:24:10
I guess you're gonna get to the point of throw it out or clean it.

Matthew
02:24:14
Yeah, there are, there are some things that still need to be thrown out.

Matthew
02:24:17
There are some things out there.

Matthew
02:24:18
I was looking at today as I was moving some more stuff down and I was like, I was like, I probably just should have gotten rid of this three months ago.

Daniel
02:24:28
Yeah.

Daniel
02:24:28
Well, folks, if, if you can go to givesendgo.comsfe if you can help out the Brewsters, if you can't help out the Brewsters, would you at least consider going to the website and then sharing it on social media so maybe one of your friends could help them out?

Daniel
02:24:46
That would be very much appreciated.

Daniel
02:24:49
As, as Christians, we should be taking care of our own, taking care of our fellow brothers and sisters.

Daniel
02:24:53
And so I can tell you, as you know, Aaron is one of the speakers of Striving Fraternity.

Daniel
02:25:00
He runs a non profit ministry on his own, does full time counseling and is living on a very meager means.

Daniel
02:25:09
So, you know, not trying to embarrass him, but any help would be a great help.

Daniel
02:25:16
So I'll just leave it at that.

Daniel
02:25:19
Next week I, I'll be posting, I'll post the, the link for the debate that was had on Dead Man Walking some time ago.

Daniel
02:25:32
And next week I asked Greg Moore if he wanted to come into Apologe live and talk about that debate.

Daniel
02:25:40
I'm gonna say now the two people that debated would say they are both believers having a debate.

Daniel
02:25:49
I will disagree with that because one of the people that was in the debate is someone I actually went to church with.

Daniel
02:26:01
So I'm going to post a link for that debate in the, in the show notes for the show for next week so you can watch that.

Daniel
02:26:09
I'll try to do it early this, I'll try and do it this week so you have time to watch the debate.

Daniel
02:26:14
But it will be very interesting because I will point out some things that was said that was, well, not exactly true about the church he grew up in.

Daniel
02:26:25
So.

Daniel
02:26:26
But we're gonna, we're gonna have a discussion on that.

Daniel
02:26:29
So after that, well, the 30th of January, we're going to talk about full preterism again because, well, I, I did an innocent thing.

Daniel
02:26:40
You should, you just shouldn't do this.

Daniel
02:26:42
You know, Adam, don't go doing this on X post a poll that just asks what's your view?

Daniel
02:26:48
Pre mill.

Daniel
02:26:49
All mill or post mill.

Daniel
02:26:51
I mean it seems innocent enough.

Daniel
02:26:53
I'm not taking a position.

Daniel
02:26:56
Well, the full preterist came out in full attire in full attack mode.

Daniel
02:27:03
And, and they were all hyped up to debate.

Daniel
02:27:05
They wanted to debate there is unrefutable.

Daniel
02:27:07
I said, good, you want to come on and debate it?

Daniel
02:27:10
Yes, yes, yes.

Daniel
02:27:11
And then one by one they dropped, dropped, dropped.

Daniel
02:27:14
And then they had some guy, Michael Sullivan, who is like their key.

Daniel
02:27:18
He'll debate, I'll debate it.

Daniel
02:27:20
And when I said great, you know, I, I'm going to be bringing in Sam Frost.

Daniel
02:27:25
And everyone was like, he's such a coward.

Daniel
02:27:27
He can't, he can't debate.

Daniel
02:27:28
He's running scared from, from Michael.

Daniel
02:27:30
And I went, ge.

Daniel
02:27:32
It's Michael that's going.

Daniel
02:27:33
He can't debate.

Daniel
02:27:34
Now all of a sudden h.

Daniel
02:27:35
So I don't know, but we'll see whether having Sam on whether any of those guys will come in and actually argue for the, you know, unrefutable arguments that they have.

Daniel
02:27:49
If not, we'll just talk full preterism and understand what it is.

Daniel
02:27:53
I do love.

Daniel
02:27:54
I, I was telling our new co host Tom Shepard about this earlier today and you know, you guys could, could enjoy this.

Daniel
02:28:03
But this really good debater, their, their top debater, this guy Michael Sullivan, told me that I had to defend, you know, Armenianism.

Daniel
02:28:15
And I said, why do I have to defend that?

Daniel
02:28:18
I didn't make a claim.

Daniel
02:28:20
He said, you put a poll out.

Daniel
02:28:22
I said, the poll doesn't take a position.

Daniel
02:28:25
He says, well, defend your view.

Daniel
02:28:27
I said, but my view is not on millennialism, so I don't have to.

Daniel
02:28:34
Well, why would I have to defend a position that I don't hold to?

Daniel
02:28:37
Especially when I didn't make an argument?

Daniel
02:28:39
To which this woman who wanted to do a written debate with me, she kept saying, why can't you do a written debate?

Neil
02:28:45
I'll do a written.

Daniel
02:28:45
But I said, well, first off, you shouldn't be in a position of teaching, so I would never have agreed to a debate with you.

Daniel
02:28:51
So.

Daniel
02:28:52
But she, she actually, this is classic.

Daniel
02:28:55
She went to our website at strivingford.

Daniel
02:28:57
Org.

Daniel
02:28:58
She went to the about section to what we believe, posted a link to our doctrinal statement and said, I read his doctrinal statement.

Daniel
02:29:07
He's postmill.

Daniel
02:29:09
To which someone later corrected her and said, I think he's premilling.

Daniel
02:29:14
To which I said, if you would have done just a little basic, like, bit of research before you guys all started with telling me what I believe, you would have realized I'm pre mill.

Daniel
02:29:24
It's really clear in my doctoral statement.

Daniel
02:29:26
The fact that you put a link to my doctoral statement and said you read it and then came to the wrong conclusion and you want to debate me.

Adam
02:29:35
Yeah.

Adam
02:29:37
This is, this is the nature of Internet people.

Adam
02:29:40
They're like a whole different breed.

Adam
02:29:44
Yeah.

Neil
02:29:44
Yeah.

Daniel
02:29:48
Both of you spoke at once.

Matthew
02:29:49
Reasonable and rational and logic.

Matthew
02:29:51
It's just too hard.

Adam
02:29:54
Yeah.

Neil
02:29:54
At least she did all the work for you, though.

Daniel
02:29:56
Yeah, exactly.

Daniel
02:29:57
You know, it really was.

Daniel
02:29:59
I mean, my wife's like, why you do this?

Daniel
02:30:01
I'm like, it was fun for a little while and then I just blocked them all.

Daniel
02:30:03
But, you know, so, yeah, it's funny.

Daniel
02:30:09
It's, it's just like, you look at this and go, do you even recognize the logic you're using?

Daniel
02:30:14
No.

Daniel
02:30:14
No.

Daniel
02:30:14
You don't.

Daniel
02:30:15
Like, oh, this is why we do apologetics.

Daniel
02:30:18
Live here, folks, is so that you could see how to do apologetics.

Daniel
02:30:23
We, we not just try to give examples of it.

Daniel
02:30:27
That's what we saw tonight in a formal debate.

Daniel
02:30:29
We try to teach it, we try to explain it why we do what we do.

Daniel
02:30:34
And so, you know, and as I said, in February, I'm trying to schedule with, you know, with Jim Osmond.

Daniel
02:30:41
We don't have a date yet, but I'll try to schedule with him, hopefully.

Daniel
02:30:44
February on the Demon Hunters.

Daniel
02:30:46
Aaron something.

Daniel
02:30:47
You raised your hand like you're in school.

Matthew
02:30:50
Yeah, I know, I did.

Andrew
02:30:51
I, I.

Matthew
02:30:52
There are so many things about this debate I'd love to comment on.

Matthew
02:30:55
We don't have the time.

Matthew
02:30:55
We are so, so far into Anthony time that it's crazy.

Matthew
02:31:00
But I did want to say an interesting observation.

Matthew
02:31:02
I was actually have to admit that I was kind of surprised to hear a couple guys, a couple of you guys say that you view the, the situation with Abraham and Lazarus as being simply parabolic.

Daniel
02:31:14
Because it is.

Matthew
02:31:15
We're sitting here talking about, well, different things.

Matthew
02:31:18
And I'm curious, is, is it not interesting that of the nearly 50 parables that Jesus told told that this is the only one that actually names individuals in it and also names two of them?

Matthew
02:31:36
Does that strike you as being, okay, maybe one of these things is not like the other?

Daniel
02:31:40
No, it doesn't.

Daniel
02:31:41
The argument.

Daniel
02:31:43
Let's take a step back and say what is a parable?

Daniel
02:31:46
We have a man made argument that says a parable.

Daniel
02:31:49
Parable doesn't use personal pronouns or, or names, not pronouns, but, but personal names.

Daniel
02:31:56
But that's not necessarily what a parable is.

Daniel
02:31:59
Parable is just an illustration.

Daniel
02:32:00
It's a, it's a, a, you know, a heavenly truth used by an earthly means.

Matthew
02:32:08
It's, it's just that a parable is fictional.

Daniel
02:32:11
Yeah, I don't, I don't think that, I don't think that there was a real man named Lazarus.

Daniel
02:32:17
And, and I would argue it and maybe we should do a debate on this.

Daniel
02:32:21
It'd be, it'd be a lot of fun.

Daniel
02:32:22
But the issue being Abraham's bosom.

Daniel
02:32:26
He's not going to God, he's going to Abraham's bosom.

Daniel
02:32:29
That, that'd be one issue.

Daniel
02:32:31
That's, that's more would be parabolic language since that's not the, a reference to heaven or hell.

Daniel
02:32:41
So he, he'd go to God's presence, not Abraham's.

Daniel
02:32:47
So there's a lot of parabolic language in there that's a figurative language.

Daniel
02:32:51
So.

Daniel
02:32:51
Yeah, so I'm not, I'm not, it doesn't bother me at all that Lazarus is named because that's, you know, that's just a human definition of parable.

Daniel
02:33:02
It's not, it's just, it's not, it's a, it's a definition that's, that we use, but it will purposely leave out one that, you know, when you look at a broader definition of a parable that would be used in Judaism, it wouldn't, you wouldn't have that.

Adam
02:33:18
So what do you do with those who say Abram, Abraham's bosom is just another way of saying Paradise.

Daniel
02:33:27
Yeah, it's, it's a parabolic way of saying it.

Daniel
02:33:30
Yes.

Adam
02:33:31
Yeah, yeah.

Adam
02:33:32
But no, no, I, I guess the point I'm trying to get at is, is are you, are you saying that to be present of the Lord, they're in heaven, or do you believe what many believe, that there's paradise and then there is, there is a, there was a holding place for those who were evil and there was a holding place for the righteous and, and that was paradise and that, and Jesus descended and he.

Daniel
02:34:06
Yeah, anyway, well, there is, yeah, there's a temporary place.

Daniel
02:34:10
We, when we think of hell, that's a temporary place.

Daniel
02:34:13
Right, because hell or Hades is thrown into the lake of fire.

Daniel
02:34:16
So the permanent place for the undead is, is the lake of fire.

Adam
02:34:22
Right.

Daniel
02:34:22
Hell or Hades is temporary.

Adam
02:34:24
Okay, okay, I'm with you now.

Daniel
02:34:26
All right, so what we would call, what we call heaven is temporary as well, because they, they'll go to the new heaven and new Earth.

Adam
02:34:34
Okay, yeah.

Adam
02:34:35
Clarifying questions there.

Daniel
02:34:36
Yeah, yeah.

Matthew
02:34:37
So, so interesting to, to Adam's point, there is a, there are people, though, who do believe that there was a different holding place Old Testament than there was the different holding place New Testament.

Daniel
02:34:50
Correct.

Matthew
02:34:50
And there will be, you know, in the future.

Adam
02:34:53
Right.

Adam
02:34:53
And, and Jesus wasn't being the name of that place.

Adam
02:34:57
And, and in the Gospels where there, there were, there were those who rose up that, that, that, that was Jesus emptying paradise, and then they would, if I'm correct, they, they then ascended with him to be with the Father.

Daniel
02:35:14
But yeah, so, I mean, I think that's a view.

Daniel
02:35:16
So I actually came to, I, I spent a good number, like, like a good number of years, three, four years on that, you know, studying that passage out, actually taking the position, Aaron, that you, that you would have, that it was a literal situation.

Daniel
02:35:32
And as I kept studying it and wrestling with it, I ended up realizing it's that I believe it's a parable.

Daniel
02:35:39
And I actually had a friend of mine who challenged me and disagreed with me, and he spent probably a good portion of a year reading a lot of different books and, and dealing with the language and whatnot, and eventually called me up and goes, you know what?

Daniel
02:35:56
I think you're right.

Daniel
02:35:57
So, yeah, I hold the position.

Neil
02:36:02
Go ahead, go for it, Aaron.

Neil
02:36:04
All right, let's go for it.

Matthew
02:36:07
You sure?

Andrew
02:36:07
Okay.

Matthew
02:36:08
I, I, I've been on the fence with it sometimes because I don't necessarily like the way some people extrapolate out different interpretations for what certain things mean, and therefore this, that, and the other things Like, I think sometimes they, they, they stretch the, the illustration beyond the reason that Christ gave it.

Daniel
02:36:27
Well, and that's the problem that.

Daniel
02:36:28
I'm going to stop you to say that.

Daniel
02:36:30
That's what everyone does.

Daniel
02:36:32
A lot of people do with parables, right?

Daniel
02:36:34
I mean, that's the problem that a lot of people.

Daniel
02:36:36
I mean, you want a great example.

Daniel
02:36:37
You want a great example.

Daniel
02:36:38
Leighton Flowers, we've had him on here, but that's what late.

Daniel
02:36:42
That's my big argument with Leighton with his hermeneutic, is he takes parables and starts to read into the parables.

Daniel
02:36:49
So, folks, when we have a parable, a parable is an illustration of something.

Daniel
02:36:53
And if you take it beyond the main point of what the parable's pointing to, what it's illustrating, now you're starting to abuse the text or take it out of context.

Daniel
02:37:06
Parables are not meant to be.

Matthew
02:37:08
Earlier, I was just going to make the observation that you mentioned a definition of parables.

Matthew
02:37:13
And I was just saying, to be honest, if I had ever learned that the definition of a parable is that there was no named individuals, I have long forgotten that.

Matthew
02:37:22
And I was just going from my own observation, just when you look at the Scriptures, I find it unique that in God's perfect word that there are, I think, somewhere between 40 and 50 parables or like elements in there, that there would be only one.

Matthew
02:37:41
Like, the odds of that are, we know it's not coincidental.

Matthew
02:37:45
We know it's not accidental.

Matthew
02:37:46
We know, you know, we know that this is purposeful.

Matthew
02:37:48
So that's why, for me, the odds that God would say, no, this is going to be the only one that falls into this very unique category.

Matthew
02:37:55
I'm sitting back going, well, why.

Matthew
02:37:58
And I think potentially the answer to the, to the, to the question why is the fact that it's not parabolic.

Matthew
02:38:03
It's actually, he was.

Matthew
02:38:04
He's illustrating a point, he's teaching something.

Matthew
02:38:06
Right?

Matthew
02:38:07
And there might, One could argue that there is figurative language.

Matthew
02:38:11
Obviously there's figurative language used, Abraham's bosom being perfect example of that.

Matthew
02:38:16
But still, it doesn't mean that it all has to be from a fictional perspective, as most parables are assumed to be.

Adam
02:38:23
Another thing that could be brought up in this is that just because it's a parable, it doesn't mean that the people used or even the places used are not real places or real people.

Daniel
02:38:38
That could be.

Adam
02:38:40
That.

Adam
02:38:40
That is, that in itself is kind of reading into what a parable is.

Adam
02:38:46
You can use real people and real places as an Parabolically as well.

Adam
02:38:52
And so it kind of swings both ways in a sense.

Daniel
02:38:58
And, and you know, for the people who make the argument.

Daniel
02:39:00
Well, if you say it's a parable, are you saying you don't believe hell is real?

Daniel
02:39:05
That's not the only verse in the Bible that talks about heaven and hell.

Daniel
02:39:09
So I don't need Luke 15 to make the argument of heaven or hell.

Andrew
02:39:15
16.

Daniel
02:39:16
Sorry, 16 to make the argument for heaven or hell.

Daniel
02:39:21
If that's the, if that's the only verse you have for your argument, then I'd be concerned.

Daniel
02:39:26
Right, but we have plenty others.

Daniel
02:39:29
And so I, the, the illustration is still the main point of what he's trying to illustrate is, hey, you know, you got the Bible people.

Daniel
02:39:40
If people aren't going to believe the, the word of God, they're not going to believe.

Daniel
02:39:43
If someone like Jesus comes back from the dead, then you're gonna.

Neil
02:39:50
Only half the Bible, you know, the.

Matthew
02:39:51
Old two thirds of it.

Daniel
02:39:52
Yeah.

Daniel
02:39:53
Daniel, you started saying something earlier.

Daniel
02:39:55
I don't know if you remember it or.

Neil
02:39:57
I was just going to say I take the position that it's parabolic as well, but I think it's, it's special as a parable because like you said, I know there's some debate amongst modern scholarship as to whether it's a parable or an actual story since he names names in that parable.

Neil
02:40:13
But I think it's, it's parabolic, but I think it refers to their spiritual truths behind it.

Neil
02:40:19
Referring to like, as Adam said, it can refer to real people or real places that, that, that exist.

Neil
02:40:25
And like, I can't say one way or the other whether Lazarus actually lived as was named in the parable.

Neil
02:40:33
But I think it does that there's spiritual realities and spiritual truths that give insight into the afterlife.

Neil
02:40:40
And like Andrew said, ultimately it points us to the Bible as our source of salvific knowledge and not the need for dead people to come back and give us that information.

Neil
02:40:53
So that's why I use that as an argument against what Matthew was arguing for.

Neil
02:41:01
It's a head scratcher passage, that's for sure.

Matthew
02:41:07
Yeah, there are.

Daniel
02:41:10
Well, I, I think this was a good show tonight.

Daniel
02:41:12
I think it was a good debate.

Daniel
02:41:13
I think.

Daniel
02:41:14
Helpful for many, I hope.

Daniel
02:41:16
Let us know if you found it helpful.

Daniel
02:41:18
Helpful.

Daniel
02:41:18
If you want more debates like this, let us know.

Daniel
02:41:21
I think, I think, you know, these are good to do once in a while.

Daniel
02:41:26
You know, it is a different style of learning, so we will try to do more like these.

Daniel
02:41:36
Oh, hey, there's a civil, civically minded podcast there, Mr.

Daniel
02:41:41
Wing.

Daniel
02:41:42
Well done, Andrew.

Daniel
02:41:43
Very good.

Daniel
02:41:43
I just actually wanted to put that up so I can promote his podcast.

Daniel
02:41:47
So.

Daniel
02:41:48
And I'm going to leave it up to.

Daniel
02:41:49
So you spot the way it's spelled, civically minded is S, I, V, E, C, C, L, Y.

Adam
02:41:58
So I just want to come out.

Matthew
02:42:01
There because no one else ever pats you on the back.

Daniel
02:42:05
Well, he also said, thank you, Andrew.

Daniel
02:42:06
See?

Adam
02:42:09
So real quick, Gail, I think that's how you say their name.

Adam
02:42:13
Tino says, seems like Matthew is on a dangerous slippery slope of New Age slash, new thought.

Adam
02:42:20
I just want to say on Matthew's behalf, he openly rejects and refutes New Age beliefs, and that's a large part of what he does.

Adam
02:42:33
And I appreciate that you put in their slippery slope because that is a logical fallacy slippery slope argument.

Adam
02:42:41
And so just be careful, because he is a brother.

Adam
02:42:45
He does believe in the scriptures.

Andrew
02:42:48
He.

Adam
02:42:48
He believes in the true gospel, and he openly speaks out against New Age beliefs.

Adam
02:42:56
So just wanted to say that.

Daniel
02:42:58
Well, thank you for that.

Daniel
02:42:59
All right, and so with that, we will see you next week.

Daniel
02:43:02
And remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

Daniel
02:43:06
See you guys next week.