Always Creating Value™ Podcast: "Breaking the Glass Ceiling" Panel Discussion

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Good morning. I'm Mark Fowler, the President still Management Corporation and CEO of revolutionary conversations, which is a training, communications company and still management company. So Management Corporation is a business reengineering and consulting firm for helping companies go from where they are to where they need to be. Couple last year, we initiated and launched a podcast called always creating value. And in our businesses, both businesses, one of our main focus points has always been despite where the company is, or where the people are focusing on where they're creating value, and how can we create more value in particular, on a fairly consistent basis so that they can continue on and be better every day. In these podcasts, we've been able to tap into some very special people and be able to talk to them about the kinds of things that they've done over their life that not only affected their their business, but also their personal life. And I've brought back three of the people who have been podcasts, participants, and they're all within the business and our corporate world, in different ways. And with them, they're all women. And we want to reach back to the days of the 70s and 80s, when women were only beginning to really have a major impact on on the business world. You know, before before the 70s, as such it was, you didn't find women at senior senior positions, and all of a sudden in the 70s and 80s.
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And then as the 90s went on, they became more and more involved and began to change the culture. And we would like to tap into the risks and the challenges that they've had to deal with and the situations that they've had to deal with.
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And get a contextualization about how some of this really good experience can be applied to the challenges that we have today, the DEI issues, the more people coming into the workplace, wanting to grow and be part of it, and want to be part of the business, not be proud of the business world in a whole new way. And I'd like to introduce them and offer birth, and comes from the public and corporate world. Lynn kitchen, she comes from the wealth management. And now she's in the in the business of producing television television episodes.
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She's now started nationally, and now she's going across the world. In Devon, Blaine, Devon is a public relations person focused in the area of business and the political. She also focuses in the business perspective from a crisis management platform where she's been able to help companies with their PR as they go through some very dangerous, very dangerous times. Lynn, could you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your area of value creation? And in particular, all those years ago when you were striking out, starting out, striking out starting out?
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Yes, thank you so much, Mark, it's a pleasure to be here with you. And with all of your guests. I'm excited because this is a topic near and dear to my heart. The topic of diversity for women is an ongoing growth issue. And it's so wonderful that you are inviting those of us who were at an earlier era, you know, to just talk about some of the experiences that we had that were the underpinnings for some of the growth that we're seeing today. So I'm really very excited to be here.
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Thank you, Mark. I also wanted to acknowledge I loved being on your podcast before which was always creating value. That's one of the topics that you know is if we can always create value, not only in our corporations but in our personal lives and in our everything that we believe in everything that we hold dear, then I think that we're on the path to being better humans. And in that regard, let me just say that as As I started out in business, in the corporate world, I just was, I jumped in with absolute, my eyes closed, and, you know, holding my nose and just jumping into the end, part of the pool, the deep end. And having let me just give you a little background that I was a product of the 1970s Vietnam era college days in which the latter part of my college was a war. I mean, yeah, war protests on campus, and a lot of disruption in distressed unrest, not too different than we have seen in the last few years. Although, you know, it took it took a different messaging. But that was a part of my value system that, that I chose a different path at that time, I actually, it made me become an entrepreneur, I was unhappy with the way people were discounting and making the corporate corporations be, you know, seem like they're the bad guys. And I thought, you know, wait a minute, we, we create value, we create jobs. Let's go make some money together. Let's have some fun. So I went out all over the country and, and sold, sold things door to door, sold books, door to door, sold, programmed school to school sold advertising store to store and I learned early on that I could become self sufficient. And once I did get through college, the one thing that I learned at that point is that I still was broke, you know, as a broke student, what do I do now. But I did have one thing I learned how to sell, I could stand on my feet and sell anything that I put my mind to. So I went into the area of money, money management, in particular and in the stock market, and I wanted to not only learn how to make money, but I wanted to learn the language of money. And I've said to myself, if I ever do make some money, I want to learn how to manage it for myself and my family. So that was my values underpinnings right out of college, I just was knocking on doors to see if I could get a job as a stockbroker. And interestingly enough, it was a shock because at that time, they were not allowed. Women were not allowed to become a stockbroker, right out of college unless you put in at least 10 years of good hard work as a secretary to a stockbroker. So it was very, very unusual. And I just kept knocking on doors all the way down Wilshire Boulevard. And I know Devin lives here in Los Angeles. So you know that Wilshire Boulevard was a street that went from downtown Los Angeles all the way to Santa Monica. And on that street, were hundreds of stock brokerage.
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Companies. Yes, like, you know, Merrill Lynch, and Dean Witter, and all of the big ones, Paine Webber, and they had, you know, ticker tape, places you could just walk in, and I did walk in and knocked on the door. And fortunately, I found one gentleman, a manager who said that he would give me a shot, that he would give me a chance, he would give me an opening, because I obviously was selling myself so hard, heartily. And he said it was because he had three daughters of his own. And he wanted some day for the corporate world to give them a break. So he was going to give me a break. But he wanted me to really understand that he was putting his career on the line by doing so. And that he had to put me on probation. And that that meant that I had higher threshold of sales that I had to, you know, come up to, and I thought, I'm great on man. Why man? So my attitude was not like, oh, how, how, how dare they treat me that way? You know, which is different than today. I wanted to make the point that we we are, wherever we begin. Those are the values of the day. I do understand today's values have shifted and changed. But back then, I was so excited just to get my foot in the door. After the first four years of working for a major brokerage firm Dean Witter Reynolds. I was I had done everything that I could to excel and I did Excel and I had an idea that I could actually create my own brokerage firm.
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And so I left the majors and became an independent broker dealer, I was one of the first women on the west coast to do so. There were several, not many, but a handful of women owned broker dealerships, you know, sprinkled around the country, a few more in New York City, of course, with Wall Street being the financial center of America. But most people said, You are crazy, you are crazy. If you don't have the big corporations behind you, and all of their research staff, you will fail. And I said, Well, let's see what happens. What am I got to lose? You know, let's see what what comes of it. And so, I was pleased to say that most of the men who are, were at higher levels of, you know, authority, who could have, you know, kept me small, or kept me out of possible, you know, moving forward, they welcomed, they welcomed a woman moving into that, that arena and my back, I just want to share that my experience was that men opened the door, as well, during the beginning years, and I want that I want the women of today to really understand that. So it's not an us versus them.
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It's, we were welcomed. And we were, I think well respected for taking the responsibility to maybe be the first. So it was, it's been great. I'm an advocate of, of always being better, not bitter.
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You know, I have a sense that and today a little bit of that bitterness, kind of filters through what's going what's going on. But we haven't we haven't exceeded enough that we haven't been actually getting better. I mean, there's an I don't know how to relate to that. I just, you know, the things I hear about the challenges that women and other other cultures have in dealing with this. I think a bit of bitterness exist, maybe because they don't understand how much how much has been accomplished.
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What do you think?
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Well, I think, Oh, thank you for that question. It's important to really understand the history of what has been accomplished. My goodness, looking back now I succeeded. 34 years, it was a 34 year career in the investment management and I went on from having my own broker dealer to starting another investment advisor after that's a full career of in what they what they determine is a male dominated industry, many of which have, you know, women have now succeeded tremendously. But there was an era in which we had to make sure that we could prove our value prove and and bring to the table something of of credible, a value that would add, contribute to the, you know, to the ongoing benefit of the, of the industry that we were representing, and why not?
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So I think that you're right, we it's important for young women today to really understand the history and what happened before them and because that brings a level of appreciation to everyone involved.
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You know, let's go back a little bit to the area of selling encyclopedias, I mean, maybe that's not what you sold. But, you know, back to the being on the street, so to speak, and trying to figure out what you could sell and how you could sell. What gave you the gumption, the hotspot to do this?
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Well, I think I was maybe unique in that. Well, first of all, I was broke. That's a good you know, starving college students, even though that my my parents, they just happened to be at a time of their life that they couldn't put me through college.
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So I decided to put myself through. And so I needed I needed some extra income. And it was an opportunity for me to get away from my hometown, little little hometown and and see the world. So knocking on doors was was exciting to me. It wasn't exactly encyclopedias, but it was Webster's dictionaries. It's pretty close.
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Well, thank you very much. We'll be coming back and talking with all three of you. But thank you, Lynn, and Anna Hofferberth You've been the president of several, several public companies, what can we? What can we learn from you about the corporate world here, we've learned about the wealth management one.
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Thank you, Mark. And I'm really excited about being on this with these outstanding women and sharing what we've learned with those who listen. But I don't know if I ever really told you mark that I actually started my career when I was five. My business career when I was five years old, I was working in my mother and father's restaurant, and I would give change to people, this little tiny hands who would come up with their quarter, I was the daughter of two people that came to the United States from Ireland. And so working and education as, as in many first generation families was very important. So when I finished my college career I embarked on into the corporate business world, and I started with Casual Corner. And when I was looking about it was at that time that that Lynne was referencing when women were suddenly moving out into, into the business world, and I saw something that I thought could be an interesting concept. And I developed what was called the wardrobe. And I, I put together two suits, five tops, one bottom, those pieces could become a 30 day wardrobe. And I traveled around New England, much like Lynn, and taught other stores, how to sell this concept to women and merging into a professional life. Believe it or not, at that time, we weren't even ready to know how to dress for the job we wanted, let alone getting that job, and ended up catapulting that career. And I grew up through the ranks at Casual Corner. And at the end, I decided I would move out of retailing into manufacturing.
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And I joined Vanity Fair Corporation, and I was the first president of a division for Vanity Fair, and that had its unique interests. And from there, I went on to become the president of retail for Hallmark. And that was my corporate environment. And FTD, where I was present in the marketplace with the 20,000 florists, kind of merged entrepreneurs, and corporate together, is working directly with the entrepreneurs who are running and helping them run their businesses as well as by product. But what was very interesting in my time, there were ads on TV about woman bringing home the bacon and frying it in the pan. That was the big commercial. And it said, we were supposed to be Wonder Woman, we're supposed to do it all. We're supposed to go out there, earn the bacon, and then fry it up in the pill. And as I looked around in my corporate environment, I saw that that's not what the men were doing. The men weren't trying to do at all the men, were finding people who were wet, better equipped to do a job than they are possibly better at doing a job they didn't want to do, and hiring them. They weren't this, do it all concept. And I quickly noticed that that that might be what was holding some of my female counterparts back, because when you try to do it all you get exhausted. So I took that learning, and adapted the idea of delegation, and finding the right people to do the right jobs, and then staying on top of them and overseeing that performance and, and making sure that they knew what the goal was, and that we would get there. And it also translated back into my home life. Because for me to be able to do what I was doing now that I had a husband and two children, meant that I needed to delegate some of that to and my terrific husband was willing to take on the role of being a very early, what's called stay at home dad.
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And not many guys were doing it.
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But he was an early adapter. And he did it. And I was smart enough to let him do it the way he wanted to do it not impose my way of doing it, and just wear the pink underwear. Eventually he was going to figure out how to do the laundry and separate the colors. And he did and now he does laundry better than i But not only did I delegate it work, I delegated at home. And I even took it a little step further Mark I have two sons.
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And I convince them that when they got to be a double digit person, they were allowed to have a double digit bike that was a big thing to have a 10 speed bike and their own laundry baskets. They couldn't wait. And that is what I learned. I learned to delegate Can we go back to the to the, the restaurant? I mean, I imagine you grew quite a bit from the five year old and making change. But what what kind of skills did you pick up in that? I guess the restaurant is still around, isn't it? It's about 90 years old or something.
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Yes, my mother, my dad passed when I was three. And I was the youngest of five. So now my mother from Ireland had to take over and make this work. And she really took it to the next level. And we all knew what it was to work, we knew what it was to take care of ourselves. And we knew what it was to support the person who was working. So we became a very close unit. But I learned like, honestly, market at five and six, Mark was a cash business, it was a hotdog stand, and the money would come mom would give it to me. And on Sunday morning, we'd sit on the floor with all the 20s in the 10s and fives and count out the money and put it in the right wrappers and take it to the bank. And 567 all the way until I went on to college, that was my job to take care of the accounting. But I nothing made me proud or I was like the puppy at Starbucks that gets the puppy cappuccino, when we go to the bank, and they count the money.
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And there were no errors. I was thrilled that just made my day.
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So I had to learn how to cope with not having a mom who was going to get up and get me dressed in the morning, because she'd worked late. And also understand that she needed help in her enterprise as much as I needed to remind.
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Just one more question, and we'll move to Devon, but I listened to both and listen to both you and Lynn. And there's in both of you, there is this ability to grab a hold of the situation and move it forward knowing that you're going to succeed. I mean, even though you might have doubts. It doesn't stop you. And I mean, where does that come from? I mean, is it because you had a great, you know, family life, even though you had lost your dad, but the business also, you know, was a big part of that you met lots of people and you were you were probably adorable. And and everybody everybody who came there, you know, cared about you. So But where did you get that? That that drive? It was just watching your mom or what is because a lot of people don't have jobs nowadays, when they go to college, they, you know, I mean, I was so glad that I started working in 15. Because when you know, I worked all the way through college. And when I went to get a job, I knew I was on my way to be a CPA and meeting clients, I'd already met so many customers in life. I know how to talk to somebody.
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But a lot of people don't know how to talk to people.
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No, I think you've hit the nose that right on the head. It was definitely my mom, my watching my mother at the worst moment.
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Gather herself and her five children and motor forward. What was number one a very good example. If I can tell you a little story about the training that I got, I can remember at 14 an 18 year old asked me on a date. And I was the youngest of the five. So I went to my mother and I asked her if I could go on this date. And she said sure.
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And I thought oh, wow. She's getting easy with the youngest one. She was much stricter. It's a great. So it was about an hour later, Mark. She came to me and she said, I want to ask you a question in this country. And I knew I was in trouble when that came up. Don't you have to be 16 to drive a car? And I said yes.
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And she said so. You want to give up all your control all your independence while you're there and get into a car that you can't take over yourself and run yourself and have to go on this day. She never said no. She just said, you really you're gonna give up all your power and not be so I didn't go on the day. But boy did I learned a lesson and when someone asked me why didn't go on the date, my answer was Why would I get in the car I couldn't draw. And so she gave me out of it. She got me out of it and gave me an out.
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So that was she really was an incredible mentor. And I earned money I learned early how nice it was was to have my own money.
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And as a grown woman when I was looking for, I never wanted to marry, I never needed to marry, I wasn't really looking for a partner because I wasn't looking for someone to complete me. But when I found done, I really found a partner. And I think that makes a big difference in women, do they, they're looking for someone to take care of them. I want to take care of myself, and then look for someone who wanted to share that with me. And that all I think came from my mom, my four brothers and sisters and have just a good outlook on the best way to get through it is to motor on.
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Keep going. Well, let's, let's move around a little bit. Let's, let's bring on Devon who I think she's mentioned in our previous podcast that she's, she's not risk adverse. He doesn't mind jumping right in there and, and shaking things up. Probably all the time. Devin, a little bit about you. And you're you're creating value.
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Thank you, it's a pleasure to be back with you. And such a joy to share this time with Leon and with AMP. I did many, many years ago, take a test on risk adversity. And it was an entrepreneur's test. And I've sadly never had the benefit of any of the corporate background that both Linda net and have had. And sometimes I wish I had, because I would have learned a lot from that. But that test told me that I was absolutely zero risk adverse that I would risk 100% of everything to go after what I believed, and sadly, have a few of the important men in my life realize that too, and made their exit because of it. But it's always worked for me. Yes, I've I've had some terrible failures. But no one who's succeeded hasn't had failure. And it's also why I've accomplished some of the things I've accomplished. So I'm, I'm a great believer in not being fearful of not knowing the outcome. Could we talking about, you're always reaching out public relations, almost every day is a different situation with the same client.
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It's a very dynamic. You just never know what they're what they're going to do tomorrow that you have, you know, of course, correct on the next day.
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Can you give us some highlights about what you do?
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We ask a lot. And we do know a lot of what of my all time favorite clients was the head of a nonprofit organization. And of course, was always asking for corporate donations. And his favorite saying was, it's not like I haven't heard no before.
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And that's our job. When it comes to the press. We probably ask several 100 People in the press on a daily basis, about covering their clients. If we hear yes, once or twice a day, it's a fabulous day.
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Kinda like back to Lynn when she was selling her Webster's dictionaries, or going up and down Wilshire Boulevard asking to join a brokerage. And yes, you're gonna hear no, a whole lot. And so what? It's the yeses that count.
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And sometimes the yeses come from people that make more of a difference to the client with that coverage.
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Sometimes I would imagine that there are situations where you don't want to Yes, you don't know. You don't know what you don't know.
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We situation in some crisis mark, and you spoke about crisis worker a moment ago. Yes, there are times when we absolutely don't want press coverage. And I've had a major now national network call and say, unless you can provide us with a spokesperson from the company, we're not going to cover this.
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And I would say, I am so sorry.
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We just don't have anyone available. And behind the scenes, I'm saying, yes, that's exactly what I want. And I always take those calls personally, because my team is so accustomed to pushing to get Yes, it's kind of a major jump shift for them to be able to accept the note.
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Now, you've had your own challenges coming up in the business world, I mean, you didn't have to navigate a corporate organization or navigate, you know, the Securities Exchange dynamics and things that go on that, you know, there's regulations. Not that you don't have to mind your P's and Q's. But you came up in a different way. You you kind of learned along the way. Some of it by yourself, right.
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I did learn along the way.
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Because I started a public relations agency, having never worked for an agency. I had worked with a lot of PR people, a lot of VPs of corporate communications, a lot of advertising managers. A lot of CFOs, because I I started as an actress and a model. I worked every trade show known to mankind, you name the industry, I did a trade show. So I came to the agency world with just enough knowledge of every industry, except for the brand new ones. To get myself in trouble in a meeting. I could talk a few buzzwords I knew a little bit. Maybe an hour, probably not. But I could talk the game and trade shows. You know, I get so bored. Because I was the cute young girl in the booth. Wearing hot pants or a miniskirt. Mormons by keels or knee high boots. How about a bag today, sir. And that would get real boring. So every break lunch, coffee, I made it a point to walk around the conference, see what was new in that industry. Talk to people learn everything I could possibly learn. And it also ensured I got hired the next time.
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Because you were able to reach out, it was, again, there's that no worry about risk that you're going to meet a friend, you're going to do something you don't have any you don't have any second thoughts about the fact that this isn't going to work.
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You know that when you took that walk around the the auditorium, you're going to meet somebody, right?
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I was going to learn something interesting, I would meet somebody, I would also probably have coffee or lunch with the person who hired me ensuring that they made a big verbal note. And next time they had a conference, they call me. And it worked for me for years. And I still use things that I learned back then, because I was working for people, by people who do what I do today. So a lot of my good ideas come from that. They come from being a news junkie.
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They come from knowing how to spin things to get the interest of the people on the other side of the news desk.
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When you say spent what what sometimes people could think that is you know comes from a negative but what you're doing is you're framing it different ways. Now what you're basically doing, you're really making it relatable, relatable.
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It's one reason why we frequently use a certain month is Native American Heritage Month or National Alzheimer's Awareness Month, or Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Those all allow us to share stories In that context, that make it interesting for the press some and sometimes it's a real stretch. I heard one on the news this morning that I thought really is somewhat chicken, that part. So it's, it's always fine to really, really stretch in your pitch. I've had talk show hosts say, Boy, that's really a stretch Devon, but yeah, I'll book.
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So they trust you. They trust you?
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Yes, because they know that our clients are going to be good spokespeople.
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So you've, you've helped the press learn how to take risks.
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I never thought about it that way. But that's a great way to put it.
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Yeah, you're helping, you're helping them a lot. You're consulting with them that they're willing to take risks with you that they may not take what somebody else interest. And you know a little bit about today. I mean, I know that, that you're really part of the the world today because everything of everything you're doing, you're involved in the news, all the news and media, operations and newspapers, and you're right on top of you're right on top of things. Anything that you can tap into the would give the younger generation a little bit of a, a little bit of a help a little bit of assistance, that, that you're giving, in many ways you're giving the the news guys, the news, people to take a risk and how to manage that risk and realize that yeah, you're gonna fall down every once in a while.
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I mean, what, what kind of wisdom would you impart? Because you seem to, it seems to flow off of you very, very easily.
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You're very kind Mark, thank you. I think sometimes, today, people are so adamant about their point of view, that they lose their sense of humor. And I would suggest that it's important to maintain that sense of humor, and to use it. And sometimes it's better to use that humor in a situation than it is to be harsh or argumentative. I'm thinking back to when I served on the governor's Small Business Advisory Council, and it was apparent to me that I was the token woman. And a small subset of the council met five of us in Sacramento one day, flew up there early in the morning, went to the meeting. And as the meeting started, one of the men turned to me and said, Devin, why don't you take the notes?
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And I immediately stood up with a big smile and said, Oh, why don't you take the notes? I'll get the coffee. How do you drink yours? What's he going to do? I didn't take the note.
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Well, it was in those days, one of those was your job. Right? So you took the better one. So So I chose the one I wanted.
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That's a that is a really good story. You know, then you've been listening to Ann and Devin and talk about, you know, some of their advice for the younger generation. And I didn't really pick that up with you as much as I would have liked. And so you know, you're out there with your mom, you're doing a podcast with your mom, you're out there, doing some amazing things in the inspirational world. You know, can you tap into some of that, that that would also tap into your history? That would be good for some of the younger people in the world today?
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Well, thank you. You know, I would like to say what you were referring to a podcast with my mother, she's 99 and a half. She has a wisdom words of wisdom that she likes to give out. And when you take a look at someone's life span of almost 100 years a century I think it's really good for women in general to look back and and as you mentioned before, learn who has come before them and what they've gone through. Because it's you know, life is a building process. It's an evolution as they say, as opposed to this is my way or the highway. And I do believe that in in what what did stood well for me Throughout the years of working in the corporate life with mostly men, I, I believe that I had a larger vision of what we were all trying to do together to achieve this value as you like to put a mark, what are we creating together? What value can we bring for, you know, my paycheck to, for my family, for your family, for your paycheck, and a team, a company, a corporation, you know, a family, a city, a nation, a world to work together with a higher understanding that we are creating value together takes a sense of history, it takes a sense of belonging. And it's not just, you know, a, your own slice of the pie at this in this particular moment, thinking that you're, I love what you said, Devon, people's point of view, seems to be all or nothing now. And I would, I would say, just growing up in, let's just grow up a little bit. And, and have, like you said, have some fun, bring some sense of humor, but also that historical perspective, that, Oh, my goodness, my mother can can bring some stories back in when she first was divorced. And as a as a young, early, you know, with two children and could not have her own bank account could not have, she did not was unable to sit on the jury as a woman, you know, so we have really progressed as women and the history of our progression needs to be needs to be honored. And here we are, there's a lot more to do more value to create, not just for women, but for all of the in the diversity idea, the DEA that we're that's so popular today, that point of view, I really think that we have so much more, to learn from each other, and really, truly work together for to create greater value.
00:42:20.340 --> 00:42:56.219
Let's go back to your mom and the podcast. What have you learned from her? I know that you get you're getting a depth of of information. We're talking about your generation, and now some of the the present generation. And you're looking back to her generation. What are some of the things just a couple of things that that hit you? I know that the fact that she couldn't go to the jury and she couldn't, you know, have a checking account? And I don't know how anybody thought that was right. But what have you What have you learned from that?
00:42:56.880 --> 00:43:45.449
What I've learned is that her generation having gone through the Depression, World War Two, quite a few of our current generation don't even have a sense of what they were fighting for. The freedom of speech and all that we really hold dear as Americans are something that my that my mother holds dear. And right now what she is holding dear is how can she age gracefully. And she has one piece of wisdom that I really love to share with everyone. And she says let us let us all be kind to each other and create a softer joy, as we can age gracefully with a softer joy.
00:43:45.539 --> 00:44:11.730
Oh, wow. Sort of like Devon's humor, you know, being being real and having a level of levity at the same time. You know, it's similar. It's not the same, but it's, it's similar. And what I what I'm taking from that is that, you know, instead of looking back at some of the horrors that did happen in a frame of 100 years, let's have a softer joy and work together.
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:39.269
It's important to not just work in the business, but you have to take time away from that and work on the business. If you're not planning for the future at where you're headed, you're never going to get there. And I think that's the key ingredient.
00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:56.340
Is that part of your ability to risk in other words, instead of scrambling every day to get everything out the door? You take the time to delegate to yourself, the kinds of strategic and visionary things that you need to do.
00:44:58.019 --> 00:45:03.389
Not necessarily every day ate, but definitely many days. Yes.
00:45:03.630 --> 00:45:33.809
And just time to think, and what what is happening in in the world? And how is that going to impact our business, our clients, and where we're headed is all irrelevant. And if you don't know how you're getting from A to B, or how each of your clients needs to be doing that, you're not going to be really helpful to them.
00:45:37.980 --> 00:46:08.760
Always say, we have to be at least one, a half a step ahead of our clients, if we're too far ahead of our clients where we lose them, but if we're, maybe in our mind, we would be but that's, that's, at least in our mind, not necessarily expressed. But I want to go back to something that you and Agnes and I discussed over dinner is a thing. In business too often.
00:46:10.289 --> 00:46:26.309
The ability to have a sense of humor, and to be gentle, is often lost. And it's so necessary, and especially today.
00:46:26.849 --> 00:46:51.809
And I know, I shared a story with you back from think it was the early 80s When I was serving on a state appointed government type board. And apparently, I was the token woman, I had no problem with that designation.
00:46:46.739 --> 00:47:17.820
And I ended up on the executive committee. So when five of us met up in Sacramento one day, one of the guys turned to me and said, Oh, Devin, why don't you take the notes? I just laughed and smiled and stood up and said, Oh, what did you take the notes? I'll get the coffee, what what would you like in years?
00:47:10.530 --> 00:47:27.449
Who could object to the woman serving. And for me, that was far better than being the one hand you did it with a smile.
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:33.539
Absolutely a smile and a laugh and zero anger.
00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:50.010
So, so going back to the humor, so for you, that was a humorous way to create a collaborative environment between the two of you. And he was satisfied and you were satisfied.
00:47:51.300 --> 00:47:53.969
I don't know that he was so satisfied, but I was.
00:47:55.829 --> 00:48:39.449
That probably is true. But maybe he was a better note taker. One of the things that comes to my mind listening to you, Devin, is that and I think I heard it from both Dan and Lynn too, but it jumped out at me and that is that. You're okay, moving forward, achieving in steps, you you, you know, something happens in you. And maybe there was a little bit of a challenge, but you got from where you were to, to the next step, not to the three steps down the path that you might want. But your your I think the word was satisfied. I don't remember how you said it.
00:48:39.929 --> 00:48:54.989
But you know, be satisfied, what would you have been able to accomplish? And I know that Lynne has something to talk about that. But could you elaborate on that? Or am I just wishful wishful listening or wishful thinking or whatever.
00:48:56.340 --> 00:49:07.019
What I'm hearing is forward progress. And forward, progress is still progress. Even if you're not all the way there.
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:41.130
And when you get there, odds are you're going to go further. Just stay the course and be satisfied with it. I mean, not say, Oh, I wish I'd gotten this or whatever, you know, not necessarily satisfied. But be kind to yourself, compliment yourself, maybe even celebrate that partial victory victory on the way to a larger one. Lynn did a whole bunch of that.
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:45.030
When What about you, can you tap into that?
00:49:45.628 --> 00:50:08.548
I would like to tap into that because, you know, as a student of charting in the in the stock market, one of the most instructive things to me is to look back in history and look at the two rents you know, and as I just love to look at it on a piece of paper and all these little marks did that show the different trends on a chart?
00:50:05.969 --> 00:50:30.809
Well, we can look back emotionally, at the culture as it relates to women and and our role in corporate life. And we can see such amazing leaps forward leaps forward. Yes, there's been some pull backs.
00:50:31.139 --> 00:50:50.429
Yes, there's been some, some retrenchments, some disappointments. But we're not let that just keep us, we are in a forward evolution of mankind.
00:50:42.659 --> 00:51:11.039
That is, as you said, Mark, bent toward a creative process of making things better. So we are where we are on, you know, right where we are. along that path, I can point back to, as Ann mentioned, her mother, our parents, our mothers were really homemakers that was their role.
00:51:11.429 --> 00:51:49.889
So I think the three of us were probably the first generation of really having an opportunity handed to us where we could be the first generation of, of women to rise into the corporate structure. And now, people, many women get upset that there's not more people in the boardroom, or in C suite, that would represent in the same denomination, as in the in your staff. And so as if we all have to be represented perfectly, but we're on our way.
00:51:50.759 --> 00:52:09.929
So we're moving in the positive direction. So situation and situation, as it relates today, I think we're, we've made huge progress, does that mean that we all have to stomp our feet and demand what we want, when we want as we want and be treated?
00:52:09.958 --> 00:52:14.548
You know, exactly. With respect?
00:52:09.958 --> 00:53:19.619
Well, it's happening. And I think that there's a lot of people who feel they need to have a very, very strong and loud megaphone to make to make other people. Change. That may be true. It's not my style. But I do understand that, whatever it takes, sometimes it might take a few, you know, blow ups now and then. But that's, again, all in the process of an a longer evolution. So as we look forward into the future of what what could be for women in the workplace, I really, I see nothing but a greater future ahead. There's definitely going to be a time in the future when women probably will be the majority in the C suite, more power to us at that point. But right here, right where we are right now, it you know, even though it might feel painful, there is a ripple effect that's happening, that's going to be of a beneficial interest for all of us.
00:53:20.489 --> 00:53:39.449
So one of the things, you know, for the future, a tool is appreciating, you know, not only what an individual has accomplished, but look back at what women have done in 50 years, you know, what women has done, and corporations have allowed that.
00:53:39.659 --> 00:53:55.710
I mean, where else but America have we had the opportunity to as a Western woman, to create such wealth, not only for ourselves, but for corporations.
00:53:51.179 --> 00:54:01.800
We were at the vanguard, we're not only creators of wealth, we are consumers of wealthy women.
00:54:02.099 --> 00:54:31.800
And so we have a larger and larger role to play and responsibility comes with that role, as well as future vision of what what is it the world that we want to leave for our children or in our children's children? I certainly don't want a continuous world. I want one where everyone has an equal opportunity and yet, you know, we have an appreciation of the fact that we we have the freedom to do so.
00:54:33.059 --> 00:56:25.650
No, thank you. Well, you know, it was I don't know where I why I didn't really ever know this till about 20 years ago. But you know, women at some point in time, couldn't couldn't have a checkbook. You know, they had to have their husband sign or their father, whatever and father had to manage the money or the husband had to manage and manage the money and that's, you know, and today everybody's got five credit cards. So it's quite a bit of a, it's quite a bit of a shift. That's great. A great analogy of it was my mother, she couldn't get her own checking account. When she got divorced. She had to have her father signed for her couldn't, you know, women could not hold a seat in the courthouse? And if you couldn't be a part of the what's it called the panel that your jury Thank you, you couldn't have a seat in the jury. You know, that wasn't as in the 50s, late 50s 60s came on board. In my industry, I'll never forget Muriel Siebert, who was the first woman to get a to own a seat on the New York Stock Exchange. And at the time, I think it was like 1967, she was one of 1300 men. Up till then no women. And you know, that was the beginning, there are breakthroughs everywhere. And even today, we have new breakthroughs. So I love to honor those breakthroughs, not for in any sense of oh, how awful it must have been then, but rather, how far we've how far we've come in a very short period of time. You know, that's just, that's, that's a half of the lifetime, at least for me to see that. And I still have life ahead of me. And we'll see lots of great changes in the future for women.
00:56:27.000 --> 00:57:10.440
Well, diversity and equity and inclusion are, you know, they're the today there's that. That's the That's the challenge as it relates to back to the women and the women of cloud quite a path for that I can imagine. And, you know, you probably know more about, you know, how we might look at some of the tools that the people of today could use? I mean, we've asked, we've, you know, we've talked to Devin and your your comments about delegation, and my comment about looking around as to who's successful and learn from them.
00:57:06.630 --> 00:59:46.650
Is there something else that we could add, you know, when says the future, what's gonna get us to that future that Lynne obviously has a great vision for. So one of the things that has made a big, big difference for women has also been something called Title Nine, where every school had to have sports for women as well. And, and had to have the same equipment and, and sports, believe it or not, are a wonderful vehicle to learn how to be effective in a team. So team building is the thing that I think is going to carry people forward. Because what you mentioned, Mark was looking at someone doing something well, and, and too often, people look around and say, Well, why am I not being chosen? Why is it not me? And instead, why don't you say, why was why were they? What did they do? What can I learn from what they did apply it to what I do? So don't I think I've said it to you to mark before, don't look at the hole, look at the doughnut. If you look at the hole, the hole gets bigger. If you look at the doughnut, the doughnut gets bigger. So look at the donut and see what they're doing. Right? That got them that when Lynn and I were talking, I told her how back in my corporate world, I suddenly was playing racquetball. I was hunting, I was doing all these sports, because I was the only woman at the sea level. And that's what the guys did after work. And if I didn't learn how to play golf, and racquet ball, then I wasn't going to be a part of that social network that ended up translating to the work network. There were little things that happened in that environment that were important to the corporate. So I got my rifle and I went out hunting. I and I didn't do badly, by the way, but it's you can't overlook the team elements of these things and building not just looking at your own career as an individual, but how can you use your career to help other women to build your team and their team help the company succeed?
00:59:47.070 --> 01:00:33.539
So taking forward a more to a whole process instead of an individual process? Look at the whole instead of the donut. So and I will say one little story I noticed about racquetball, by the way, when I played with women, we would play the first set, and then we would stop and talk. And you lose your momentum. And you kind of your muscles start to cool off again, when you play with a man, you play the three sets until you figure out who wins, and you talk at the end of the game. So we absolutely do things differently. And we absolutely need to understand and recognize that, but we can work very well on a tee.
01:00:35.219 --> 01:00:39.329
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
01:00:35.219 --> 01:00:43.739
I love that team thing. And today, you know, that's where diversity comes in. You know, you have a diverse team.
01:00:49.500 --> 01:03:18.719
Lin Amin, Devon, blinking out here. Second, Devon. Let's talk a little bit about besides the challenge that you had, that at that political event, what are some of the things that in your earlier years that look like it looked like they were gonna get in your way, but didn't because of something you did? You know, when you when we had dinner the other evening, you talked about, you know, having been an actress for a number of years, and you're forget your agent, or your business managers would be working with you, and you took the opportunity to shift, you know, shift from what you were doing, and, and not be and not be dismayed by that. You were able to see, you can see it emotionally that this was a door that was opening that that you could never imagine, but the door was open. And you're I guess it's that risk factor you have or Oh, I also think that my managers saw something. A potential that I had not fully realized. I had always thought that when I was in high school, in college, in journalism, I thought, maybe one day, I'll be a staff writer on a newspaper, or if I get really lucky, I might be writer for a women's magazine. And what my managers saw was that I could represent one of their clients and do the PR and make them wildly successful. That that's a whole other story. I ended up resigning that account after less than a month because I I had the experience after going to be the next Steve mug. The next major motion pictures start. He was supposed to star in a motorcycle movie. So I arranged for him to present the awards at a motorcycle race at ascot.
01:03:19.530 --> 01:04:25.500
Let's wind up a little bit about about what the what was accomplished with that motorcycle. Example, this major motion picture star who hasn't been heard from sounds, his managers and I spent the entire day at the motocross race. And just before the awards were due to be presented, and I had a TV station coming to cover him making that presentation. He decided he didn't feel well and had to go home. And he left his managers in either holding the bag and I thought, No. I am not going to represent someone who if he were on his knees and throwing up maybe. But he was fine. He just panicked. So, you know, my attitude was you're an actor, fake it, get through the presentation. And he went home.
01:04:19.949 --> 01:04:27.840
And I was like, Oh, you're fired. Fired.
01:04:28.739 --> 01:04:32.489
I always I'm with you, Devon.
01:04:28.739 --> 01:04:55.980
I'm with the fake it till you make or motor through. Get your motor going and keep motoring on at the motorcade. So I'm with you. 100% All right, that's good. You know, and do you have a couple of those awkward moments where?
01:04:48.659 --> 01:05:01.380
You know, it's the it was sort of like the men and the women or the men and one woman out Um, experience?
01:05:02.429 --> 01:05:45.958
Yeah, I can remember, at VF Corp, there was this VF Corp owns Vanity Fair Lee wrangler Jansport. I mean, a ton of, of brands, every one of which was run by man. But this one brand Parmesan that was run by me. And we had this huge corporate meeting, and everybody was there. And as I was walking to get my appetizer, I heard somebody say, Did one of the guys bring his wife? I turned around and said, No, we didn't.
01:05:49.590 --> 01:06:07.920
Know you were somebody to deal with? That's for sure. So I'm gonna ask Devin, and then and then, and then and again, we've had a very nice conversation.
01:06:03.150 --> 01:06:44.130
And I think we've accomplished a great deal as it relates to some of the things that you guys have achieved and the way you have been able to achieve it that could add value to the current world. So it is a little bit of a summary. Devin, could you you know, what would you tell? What would you tell your younger self, who happens to be today in today's world? What are some words of wisdom as it relates to all the new things that are going on? The kinds of things that are getting in the way of everybody, not just women, nowadays, they're getting in the way of, you know, everybody?
01:06:46.710 --> 01:07:07.860
A lot of what I would say, probably a decade or two, being strident doesn't help you. It doesn't help anybody. Be easy on yourself and other people.
01:07:02.340 --> 01:07:07.860
Maintain your sense of humor.
01:07:10.170 --> 01:07:23.730
And nothing is worth getting totally irate over. There's always another way to manage it.
01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:30.539
And just be quiet enough and clever enough and resourceful enough to find other alternatives. There's always a way.
01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:37.980
There's always a way to be kind does it for instance, Yes, that too.
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:44.219
When What about you telling, you know, talking to younger self in today's world?
01:07:45.239 --> 01:08:57.689
Well, first I just want to sit Thank you, Devin for that. That was just so cool. And this, this has been a great discussion. And thank you to Anne and mark this it has been so fun. You know, I, I think that the spirit of gratitude would be one tool, that I would invite myself as a younger person to hold on to the fact that appreciation is an expansive, heart, heart centered place from which we can live our lives over, you know, 10 decades, if we let if we last to be 100. Will, we're going to need appreciation and gratitude in all things. I appreciate opportunities that I both had and didn't have. They both taught me lessons today that I'm that I'm recognizing. So I would say to my younger self. Pay attention to opportunities, evaluate them a little bit more.
01:08:50.579 --> 01:10:15.329
And ask, find a mentor that can help you see in the future, find what it is that you bring to the table so to speak. In other words, what value can I bring, such that every year that I apply my craft, that I'm going to create a future value that's worth something to be proud of today. So I would advise young people to really understand their value not only today, but what they're going how valuable they're going to be in the future. To the corporation today, how valuable they're going to be in the future to their loved ones and families for having done well. And how what value they can bring. hone their skills and and create you know bring that creative process and believe in yourself that anything is possible. Take Take, take leaps. I mean, I took some extraordinary leaps looking back, I could have been creamed, you know, easily, easily.
01:10:16.229 --> 01:10:33.420
You know, having worked only four years in a big firm and going out on your own. That's quite a leap. That was a huge leap. And it all worked out. So here's, here's the big tool. What if it all works out? What would you do then?
01:10:34.259 --> 01:11:27.930
Yeah. That's wonderful. Thank you very much. And you, I think that I would have loved to have had both Devon and Lana on any team. I had, it was be a pleasure. And I think the only thing I can add to what they've so well said, is to enjoy it, too. Just take a breath and enjoy the ride, enjoy what you're doing. And when I used to teach the wardrobing, where I said, dress for the job you want not for the one you have? Why don't you work for the future that you want, not the one you have. So the forward thinking and the enjoyment of the the journey. And what Devin was saying is so right, you can work hard, you don't have to work me.
01:11:22.649 --> 01:11:44.760
And anytime anyone loses their temper, they lose the argument, because no one can hear you anymore. So take all these words, and enjoy yourself, your family and enjoy the future that you're building. Because it's all there for you to grab. It is the gold ring.
01:11:47.010 --> 01:12:39.510
I was thinking about I had forgotten about revolutionary conversations. But much of what you guys were talking about really do represent what Rob Cohn talks about revolutionary conversations and talks about stopping and helping yourself or helping others and spending time asking, you know, creating a, you know, a conversation with people together a collaborative thing. And everything that you guys talked about, like, if somebody's successful, you got to spend some time with them, you know, you have to have that conversation, you can't just run up to them and say, you know, what makes you so good? You know, that's not gonna, that's not gonna be polite, or, you know, work particularly well.
01:12:32.609 --> 01:12:45.329
And, you know, Devin was talking about taking risks and other words, be able to take a risk and say, Well, what can I do to help? You know, what can I do?
01:12:45.329 --> 01:12:56.130
What, you know, we've talked about stuff, but you know, asking your boss, asking somebody you work with, you know, what can I do? To? Can we do together? What can we can?
01:12:56.130 --> 01:13:01.380
How can I help you so wonderful.
01:12:56.130 --> 01:13:19.890
I actually have about 40 Other questions for you all, but you know, I want to keep you more than an hour and out. So. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna ask James in all of you, Devin and Lynn, experienced the podcast before.
01:13:20.310 --> 01:13:33.329
And I always ask James, to, to weigh in, both with questions, as well as you know, his own opinions or his own perceptions.
01:13:35.489 --> 01:16:29.220
Thanks, Mark. And I'm honored to be given the opportunity considering everybody who's here today, the thing that really struck me throughout this entire conversation is how fundamental a lot of the ideas that were presented often were presented as being historical, or given some historical context in terms of how far you know women have come or, you know, how more diverse the opportunities are for people. But what really stuck out for me is that a lot of these things are so fundamental that they work really, just as well today. They did, you know, when these things were more of a more revolutionary, you know, the share tools and some of the fundamental communication techniques that and Lynn and Devon have talked about, seem universal to me, like there's just never, and it reminded me of something my dad said because he was, uh, you know, he spent a lot of extra money and time putting himself into Harvard Business School, he said that the Marines kind of taught him everything he got out of Harvard. So, um, you know, show up earlier, you're late, that kind of stuff, you know, the ghosts core things and I guess my question would be, has anything changed since you know is This pandemic any different than the last, the last 100 years ago or, you know, has stuff that's happening today, internet pandemic, global warming, you know, resource, you know, management or mismanagement, whatever, as anything, changed any of those fundamental. Obviously, you know, the greater inclusion. But it's just greater inclusion, it seems like in these paradigms, but the paradigms themselves are the same, you know, the models are the same. Do you guys see any big changes that, that make any of the things you guys have talked about obsolete today or moving forward? But so full Stein, I'm going to ask one since I've started with her before. Well, thank you, James. That's such a wonderful, sweeping philosophical question. I mean, I can, as a as a student of economic history, I can say that it's all different. And yet, it's all the same. History does repeat itself. I think people are, are human. after all. We have our foibles, we have our desires, we have our aspirations. And we definitely repeat the same problems over and over. Do we get better? I'm hoping I have, you know, I'm an eternal optimist. So I believe that things are getting better.
01:16:23.250 --> 01:17:11.819
And that, indeed, this this time, this pandemic, this crisis, sincerely, we are making progress. Now, even in this even even though it may appear the appearance of things may be worse. What if we're actually getting even more creative in a problem solving problems may be becoming bigger, certainly more dire as it relates to resources and and the planet. But I do believe that the human spirit is invincible, and that we'll come up with solutions. Thanks for the question.
01:17:12.449 --> 01:17:15.270
Thank you. I'm gonna jump to Devon.
01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:51.090
I think the the old parable of is much things change, they stay the same, is really, really appropriate. The problems become a little bit different, the solutions become a little bit different. But nothing really is that much different. And Mark, I just have to compliment you bringing together a group of people that I would really like to spend time with outside of this podcast.
01:17:53.579 --> 01:18:21.420
Well, thank you, thank you. I enjoy I haven't seen in years and I don't think I've ever met Lynn. So I don't think we've ever been in the same room together. And so when we just a sidebar, and you guys can cut this out. But when we did the first podcast, which was Devon's very Agnes got so excited. My wife gets so excited about Devin. I think it was the 15th.
01:18:21.420 --> 01:18:39.899
And then Devon's birthday was the sixth eighth, and she was determined that we get Devon to take her to dinner, and we didn't happen. And it was probably didn't happen because of me. But last this month, we all got together and a year later.
01:18:40.889 --> 01:18:59.128
You're later yeah. So Mary has made that happen. What's not gonna let Devon escape one more time. So anyway, but for the same reason she really wanted to hang out with Devin. So I got I got the opportunity to be with them and whatever. Yeah. What about you?
01:19:00.300 --> 01:19:48.510
Yeah, good question, James. My pivot. My point on this is that, as the other women on the podcast have said that things, the tools remain the same, but the names change. And then, so it was affirmative action. Now it's Dei. What I've seen with the me to movement is that women are now credible. And that's a nice movement forward. Now we have to make sure that that pendulum doesn't swing too far, one way or the other. The one big thing I take away is that technology did not give us more time. We kept thinking, we'll get this technology, it'll free us. I don't know about anyone else. But that has not changed.
01:19:48.539 --> 01:20:20.250
I have not seen the technology giving me more time but I'm taking more time. That's changed. So the tools there Pretty basic, and they're pretty good for you. But they must be I might just call it something different that's me, I think now, we've got Mark frozen.
01:20:13.529 --> 01:20:20.250
Yeah. Well, that's interesting.
01:20:20.639 --> 01:20:24.029
I'm recording now. Okay.
01:20:26.159 --> 01:21:38.760
Because listen to all three of you, and James as well. And it does, a lot of it does stay the same. I think some of the nuances do change a bit. I think that we've grown a lot more sophisticated. And I'm, I'm thinking that if we are going to change, to save some save some of the things that we've got precious on our world, is that we got to use that sophistication in a way that's it's more collaborative, and more inclusive. You know, I remember when my partner, a partner, Gloria Axelrod, was alive when we were teaching a revolutionary conversation that at clients and helping them understand that everybody belonged, and increase the capability of the company, because they all began to realize that they belong together. It didn't need to fire this one it didn't the fire, that one, whatever, you just need to talk to each other. And I think we need to, if anything changed our habit. In other words, these are very good tools that you've all talked about.
01:21:35.250 --> 01:22:38.579
But we need to apply them more than we probably have done before. And I think a lot of that has disappeared. I mean, it's, you know, we all we all worked in college, right? I would assume that all of us worked in college, and a lot of people don't in today's world, they don't have a sick, they don't have a job, they don't have they've never experienced talking to customers or clients or serving tea or, you know, they've they've not had to get a paycheck. And I think that that's hard for them when they all of a sudden sit at a desk and haven't had to struggle like When did but Linden struggles she she took it in stride, you know, she's out selling whatever she could sell. And I don't think a bit of that. I don't think that tool that experience is missing a good. I don't know how we get it. I don't know, we included into the into the process. Any comments about that, and then we'll, we'll break.
01:22:40.619 --> 01:23:24.090
It's interesting, what you're saying, because I noticed with that's customer service maybe has lost a little of its glow, it appears that the customer is not always right. And that people are often trying to teach you how to be a good customer instead of making you a happy customer. So I think with what you're talking about, is fewer people having to work themselves would have a greater appreciation for the the customer and the work ethic that it takes to to serve the customer. Well, and we all are customers. And so I think that that could use a little polishing.
01:23:25.319 --> 01:23:27.420
I agree. Devin, you said something?
01:23:28.949 --> 01:23:34.409
No, I was just Amin a lot cuz and was right on target.
01:23:38.729 --> 01:24:49.920
One, anything that you think of, I would like to just add. Anyway, I love what you just said and that we're all customers. Well, that is really quite an interesting idea. But I want to underscore what you just said Mark about using the tools in such a way that we're talking to each other more. And that the art of conversation and even dialogue and debate seems to be under a lot of of us either stress or maybe you know, dis disrepair at the moment in our country, and those the divisions that arise I think can be solved more easily by the revolutionary conversations that you stand for Mark. And that, you know, we have to stand for something and let us all you know maybe resolve to do a little better to communicate with each other. So that resolution can come sooner rather than later and open a space open a greater space for something new to happen.
01:24:47.579 --> 01:24:52.470
Something better the creative process. Yeah.
01:24:53.128 --> 01:25:04.618
I appreciate what you're saying about the division and you know, instead of conversation we have debate and Are we have lines in the sand, they're so easy to create the lines in the sand.
01:25:05.578 --> 01:25:39.958
It's like, you know, James was saying that these are all fundamental. But if they can't get to the table, these fundamentals, talents can't get to the table because we're not articulating or collaborating with the person across the table with you. Those tools are in some ways, I would say worthless, but they're on unapplied. unproductive. And so anyway, thank you all. This is fun. So when are we going to have an annual retreat someplace good. Maybe in northern Florida.
01:25:44.668 --> 01:25:45.149
Right.
01:25:45.659 --> 01:25:54.930
All all show up in Nashville is going on here. So you haven't Thank you very much.
01:25:51.569 --> 01:25:57.960
Thanks for, you know, going out to dinner with us the other day.
01:25:54.930 --> 01:25:59.279
I know Mary, Agnes is still talking about you. So.
01:26:00.569 --> 01:26:01.380
Oh, dear.
01:26:03.899 --> 01:26:08.430
And, Lynn, thanks again. You.
01:26:03.899 --> 01:26:26.340
You know, you surprise me so much with that. Your first when you did the interview with Barbara Von Miller run revolutionary conversations. And you're the only person to show up on any of those interviews and having read the book and talk about the book, as you did in the beginning. You know, you're wonderful, thank you.
01:26:26.609 --> 01:26:32.010
Thank you, Mark. I so appreciate it. And thanks for everyone else and in Devon, and James.
01:26:33.359 --> 01:26:49.800
Thank you. Thanks, everybody. It was wonderful. My pleasure. I just wanted to say to all of you that labels really are terrible things because we're labeled as a minority. And I saw nothing minor from it.