Sandy Cohan: Welcome to Always Coachable conversations with athletes, leaders, coaches, and high performers about growth, mindset, resilience, and the lessons that shape us over time. Today's guest is Ben Finelli. And Ben's story really starts at a moment that really could have ended a lot of things for a lot of people. At 16, a few games into his OHL career, one hit left him. With a fractured skull and three bleeds in his brain, he was told that he'd likely never play again. And against those odds, he fought all the way back, captained the team, and earned a camp invite with the New York Rangers. Then, as if that's not enough, he took the whole experience and built heroic minds, a movement grounded in one idea that we're not victims of our circumstances, we're the heroes of our own story. Today he's a keynote speaker and a psychotherapist who helps people turn their hardest moments into their greatest strengths. He's a leader, a builder, a husband, a speaker, and a real presence and command. And I'm lucky enough to call him a friend. And honestly, someone that I look up to and have immense respect for. So, Ben, here is why I wanted you on the show today. This is our fifth episode. You took the worst moment of your life, arguably a terrible, terrible moment of your life, and turned it into a way to lift other people up. That's absolutely rare. Most people who go through that just seem like they're trying to survive it. And you built something out of it. So officially, Ben, welcome to the show, my man.
Ben: Thank you so much for having me. Geez, now there's big shoes. After an intro like that, I little and
Sandy Cohan: Yep, show's over. Thanks for coming. Show's over.
Ben: exactly. You know, I I appreciate the introduction and I know that's what, you know, people on the surface will will see due to you know how the internet works. And I'd say, you know, it wasn't just me. You know, you say I, you know, he was able to or Ben was able to. And and I think the reality is there was an army at my back. I yeah, sure it was an an unlucky situation in a you know highly competitive physical sport. But at the same time, what what I feel sometimes people miss is the army at my back. And that of course is what drives the work that I do today of you know What can what can people really do when not only is there people helping them, maybe the initial steps in their journey, they need a little bit of, you know, a couple hands on that foot helping move that next step, but also just tapping someone on the shoulders and saying, like, I actually think you can do this. I mean, it's so easy at times to look around when nothing objectively looks like success or progress and other people, if needed, you know, can sometimes help you believe in something that doesn't yet exist. so I was very lucky to have that. Yeah, go ahead.
Sandy Cohan: You you kind you kinda j you kinda you kinda just answered it and I think that I know how you're going to answer it, but that intro is I know sometimes people get a little squeamish when they hear those things said about themselves, but is that how you see yourself?
Ben: Yeah, I I see myself as the collection of lessons from a bunch of people that probably don't even know. I have taken little bits from their lives. some outwardly do. I try and remind my parents all the time of what they've taught me when maybe they didn't even notice. and I think that's another big thing maybe we can get into of
Sandy Cohan: Sure.
Ben: the the subtlety in how we teach other people. But yeah, I would see myself as the collection of of what I would subjectively say ideal character traits and behaviors and habits of of other people. And I'm very lucky to have that. Very lucky to have those people in my environment at different points in my life that have taught me those things.
Sandy Cohan: In where do you think that came from? You kind of just mentioned your your family, but in your younger years, being an accomplished hockey player, even even without the the injury, and I know that's probably a pivotal part in your story, but what was what was Ben like back then? did did do you think you had those those characteristics?
Ben: It's a great question. I, to the best of my ability, and now I'm learning more and more every day, this this whole performance or resilience, these these high-level terms we use are so multidimensional. And you know, you could, I mean, look around, just scroll through LinkedIn. There's people from every different domain saying, here's the key to performance. Here's so we know it's multidimensional. And if I could use a reductionist perspective and bring it down to something that it could have been, I had two parents that were, you know, on one side, I I had the endless optimist in my father, and I had still an optimist, but the more rationalist in my mother. And
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: I'm going to posit that in that coexistence of those two things, it was You know, I was a bit of a rug rat running around doing a million things. I feel sorry for my parents. And as as I, you know, my wife and I look to to have kids in the near future here. We're kinda worried. Hopefully they're not too much like we were as kids, but but that may be how w
Sandy Cohan: That's that's like that's the big thing, right? Just hopefully yeah, hopefully they don't turn out like we were when we were kids. Right.
Ben: Exactly, exactly. I'm sure though they will be. But yeah, that's what I would say. If I could try and put my finger on it, I I don't know how I was in a place where I could dream a million dreams. I I very much did as a kid, that anything was possible. And it was never my parents telling me what was or was not possible. It was just me kind of dreaming on my own. and then the the aspect of the the rational side of my mom, it wasn't you can't do this. It's It was more about let's have a conversation of what this could take and if you want to sign up for that. Because if you sign up for it, it's you signing up for it, not us. We're not the ones lifting everything for you, moving boulders out of the way for you. That's gonna if you choose to do this, whatever it was at the time, that it's gonna be you that makes that decision. And so I I'm again, it's a tough question to answer and have full no whether be evidence or certainty. but I I think if I look back at my childhood, that was a that was a big part of it.
Sandy Cohan: Do you think that your success in athletics, in hockey was do you think that played a role that you kind of had that perspective, which is not super normal for younger people, right? Do you think that's something that you had?
Ben: Yeah, I I followed the trajectory I hear about every day in my work. It was play the game, have tons of fun. That was the only thing my, you know, it was yeah, it was predominantly my dad that oversaw things when it came to the the sport side. But I don't want to, you know, we're at a time where I think my mom is unbelievably athletic. She's just hesitant to showcase it. I remember when she came on the
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: outdoor rink, I've seen us play ridiculous games like Trying to throw things in the garbage as a competition with my dad
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: and my mom. Like my mom is very athletic. but yeah, I think, I think that was the one rule was like, this is about fun, Ben. And if if you're not gonna bring an approach of love and and joy to this, then we have to have a conversation. That was the only time I I ever had a serious conversation about sport ever, was when I was feeling sorry for myself, because I, you know, maybe underperformed from the expectations I set out for myself. But yeah, I've I followed that trend trajectory of like figure out how good you can be, have tons of fun and joy. And then I think that's what allowed me to develop certain skills in in hockey and and soccer and some other sports that I I had a lot of fun in. And then I'm and then it kind of you realize once you realize how good you are, the expectations set in and the failure avoidance sets in. And you know, I I for sure had experiences in those cases as well.
Sandy Cohan: Do you remember seeing maybe other, maybe your friends or other people on your team or or within the various sports? Do you remember seeing other players who it wasn't a skill thing, but maybe they lacked what you just said, the fun element or you know, just kind of the perspective element? Do do you remember seeing that and maybe recognizing, gosh, that's a reason maybe why they aren't? progressing like that that that you had a different perspective than they may have had?
Ben: I'll be honest, I think at times I had the same perspective as them. I wasn't aware of the ideas that I now look at today, that you look at today and research today, and that you're pushing out into the world and that other people in in similar air arenas to you and I, that what we're doing, pushing out these messages, that the joy and love and passion is very often the antidote to a lot of the self-doubt
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: and failure avoidance. But I would say what was more surprising, because I think that's kind of easy. It's like, yeah, we look around, it's like They're worried about making mistakes. They're worried about what mom and dad are gonna think. They're worried about if they don't get to the NHL. What was most fascinating was the opposite. Was the the Jeff Skinners, the Landis Cogs, the Tobias Readers,
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: the Radic Faxas, the John Gibsons, the Ryan Murphy's, the John Moores, the list goes on. Like they all came from completely different backgrounds, different parts of the world. Different abilities, very much so, size, strength, skating, shooting, passing, patience, etc. They all had, but the underlying theme across all of those individuals I named for your hockey listeners, but will recognize at least a few of those names. The underlying piece was that they did it for no one else other than themselves. And to you know, go down even further, like game day. Game day was another day. Well, they how they came to the rink on practice day for some of them, and how they came to the rink on game day was pretty much the same thing. No forward thinking into the future. Their feet were their mind was where their feet were. and at the same time, in that group, you had individuals that would exercise before games. You had ones that wouldn't really warm up. You had ones that were really dialed in on their nutrition, you had ones that really didn't think too hard about what they were putting in their body, and yet they all made it to the top of the mountain of which so many are trying to make it to. So that was that's the part that fascinated me the most and what continued curiosity with that is what drives me to keep learning in the work that I do because I don't a lot of the messaging today fits a nice aesthetic, right? It's all about grinding, it's all about doing more, it's no weekends off, more, more, more. And you you zoom out and you start to listen to some of the individuals at the top of their game right now at the professional level. And to me, there's a there's a bit of a disconnect, right? There's a lot of athletes talking about the the attention they put on balance in their life now and focusing on their family and and other hobbies or interests. I mean, Jokic in the NBA is one of my favorite stories to share. It wins an NBA championship, seems like he doesn't care. And then a few weeks later, his racing horse wins a race and he he's crying, tears of joy. And and I'm like, yes, world, sporting world, let's sit with that. All of us, let's sit around a table and sit with that and figure out wait, wait a second. That doesn't match the Nike commercial. That doesn't match
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: the Olympic commercial. What is going on there? Because he had immense success. He's one of the, from what I know, I'm not a huge basketball follower to know all the stats, but I believe he's very much in the top tier of of performance in the NBA. And there he is objectively showing. I don't know what you call it, more compassion, love, joy for his racing horse winning a race. And when he wins the biggest trophy he can in his sport, he's like, yeah, pretty good, happy with the team. And I think that's what fascinates me.
Sandy Cohan: What what do you what do you think that what do you think that is though? That that's such a that's such an interesting point. Do you do you think it's balanced? Do you think it's perspective? Is that is that a learned perspective? Is it learned balance? I I agree with you a hundred percent. A lot of the players I talk with or the athletes, like the the fun or quote, the off time is not is not what you manage to fit in when you're not On, like that becomes built into the program, right? But what what do you think it is for in that example that you just said? Is it perspective? What is it?
Ben: I I think that's where it starts, right? Those are that's kind of the surface of the water. We talk perspective, we talk balance. Athletes hear that, and it's very cognitive, it's very conscious. So I don't think it runs deep enough to actually create the safety of what's really going on. And so you asked, you know, what do you think it is? And this is my hypothesis that it comes down to safety. I I think it's beyond sport. I do, I think sport. We use a lot of the bud buzzwords, right? Performance anxiety. We use overthinking,
Sandy Cohan: Sure.
Ben: but we don't want to use the word fear. But look at the symptoms of fear and anxious attachment and anxiety, which I don't know if we want to open that door yet, you know, to the to the very human side of performance.
Sandy Cohan: D do you think because it's perceived weakness, do you think that's what it is?
Ben: It could be. I mean, I mean, this the overthinking, hyperfic focus, tension in the body, trying to control variables we don't actually have control of that are counterproductive to what we're actually trying to do. Like these are a lot of just everyday symptoms of what we would call
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: fear, but we don't use that term. And so the question to me is not you know the surface of we need perspective, we need balance. It's why is everyone so scared? And then I think we can really open up a really interesting, human-centered, relatable conversation. And that's what I try to do in my work because we, you know, for sure, the breathing exercises and the reframing and the narratives that we have in our minds, sure, those are great to talk about and and to consider. My big thing is instead of just finding different buckets to put under the leak, how do we go fix that leak? Like, how do we have a relationship with sport where I'm running out for recess every time I step on the ice. And I I mean, I observe the best of the best. I don't even know if I should use that term. Let's say performance specifically in front of 30,000, 40,000 people. And that's what I see. I I see a It's not that the competitiveness is removed, right? Like, it's just about fun. Like, you can't have fun and perform under pressure with a three-point
Sandy Cohan: Right, right.
Ben: shot to win the game or being the last shooter and the shootout. And still, it's like, yes, you can. Those two things can coexist. And I think the the variable that is the difference maker is safety. Whatever's going to happen in the next 10 seconds or 20 seconds, on the other side of that, I'm going to be safe. I'm going to be okay. And when that's when
Sandy Cohan: You
Ben: that's the perspective, I think now all the abilities that that that individual's been building for years can now effortlessly come to the surface.
Sandy Cohan: Do you think when you say safety, I I do you think it's safety from judgment, safety from evaluation, from be being perceived as less than or vulnerable? Is that what you mean when you say safety?
Ben: I would say maybe those buckets you just listed, I would say yes, different for different people. Is it
Sandy Cohan: Sure.
Ben: fear of the future financially? Is it fear of the future opinion of of ones that whose whose perspectives we greatly consider and put a lot of weight into? Is it social? yeah, there's different types of Causation of fear. And so yeah, I would say it's a across the board bits of each one of those. And now that's I want to be clear, that's my perspective and
Sandy Cohan: Sure.
Ben: opinion and hypothesis. I'm not saying that's black and white the truth, but I I just here's an example. Like I think one of the most interesting things I've seen in my work is Christmas holiday for athletes that I work with. Let's let's focus on hockey as a little niche down there. When they go home for Christmas, no conversations with me. No psychology philosophy, thought reframing, et cetera. They go home for Christmas, they come back lighter, freer, more optimistic, more positive, more excited, more energy.
Sandy Cohan: Always, right? Always.
Ben: And so it's like, well, what's going on there? Why don't we kind of instead of the focus on grinding and more and more? And it's like, well, what happens? They go home for three days to five days and they're just rejuvenated and ready to go. Well, well, let's look at what's going on there. There's a break from the tension, both internal and external tension that's there. There's attention given to other life values and pillars in their life. There's nurturing of what appears to be an important part of the human experience, which is social connection. So I find that very fascinating. And I think it does require a pause and a zooming out. of the whole perspective and again relationship with elite sport that I d I'm not gonna sit here and say I have all the answers, but I got a list of questions that I I look to to try and move closer to answers on in my work.
Sandy Cohan: Do you think that that what what you just said that that do you think that that is being kind of beaten out of people to remember or do you think it's something that's just not being taught?
Ben: That's a brilliant question. I'll s sometimes I think I don't know if it's being yeah, it's a but
Sandy Cohan: Maybe it's a both and. Maybe it's a both and, kinda.
Ben: it could be. I mean, I'll I'll say anecdotally, and I'm I'm not saying this is across the board, but anecdotally I see currently, you know, whether it's a team deciding to do a workshop or have one of these conversations, it's obvious it's often kind of. shimmed in to after practice at eight o'clock at night or nine o'clock at night after these athletes have been in
Sandy Cohan: Yeah. It's an afterthought, sure.
Ben: yeah and then we fit it in and we kind of force it on them instead of allowing it to coexist in the experience. And and again a hypothesis I have would be well what if it wasn't even a workshop? It was actually just integrated into sport. We we
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: we celebrated the processing and the what athletes do after a mistake versus stopping the entire practice, hyperfixating on the mistake and and reinforcing this narrative that we are we need to teach our nervous system to keep an eye out for mistakes because they're a huge problem. Right. That I think that would be more productive than having a workshop, some external voice coming in and saying, hey, it's okay to make mistakes. I don't know if that is as effective as it being completely integrated into the sport. And and there are organizations that are doing it and there are coaches that are doing it. And you do you feel the difference. I mean, you do enough workshops with athletes too. You walk into that locker room or or meeting space. Yeah,
Sandy Cohan: Culture, it's it's a cultural thing.
Ben: yeah. So that's what I think. I think it can be integrated into the curriculum of sport versus our current model of having it slivered in at the end or you know somewhat forced upon them from an outside voice. So, anyways, I I think we're all learning and growing in this.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: And hey, back in the day, I think it was more objective, right? numbers, stats, pick the best, and let's keep moving forward. And now we're like, maybe there's actually an ability to bring up the capacity to perform in all these individuals by shifting how we speak about performance and how we even talk about the the narrative and mission of each individual's sporting journey itself.
Sandy Cohan: When your playing career ended, from there to heroic minds launching, what take me there. What what was what was that time like in your life? what what led to moving into that direction of creating something like heroic minds?
Ben: Hmm. I think I jumped in, I completely just jumped into life outside of sport. yeah, I I was already in school at Wilford Laurier, which was in the same town that I played junior hockey in. So I was already going to school there. So I just took on more courses, jumped into campus activities, and actually started bartending too. There was a bar in town. I was still connected in the community, public speaking, going to schools. I just, yeah, there was no time off to kind of contemplate. It was jump right into life outside of sport, whether I was ready or not, or whether I knew what I was going to fall in love with next. I had no idea.
Sandy Cohan: Were you nervous? Were you nervous that you didn't know what it was going to be? Or were you just excited for the next chapter?
Ben: I I was excited to find what it was going to be. I don't I don't know why I wasn't. It's a good question. I don't know why I wasn't. I would say I was, it wasn't fear. Here's the here's how I would put it, actually. It's a great question because I've never been asked it. It wasn't fear of what I was gonna do. The only fear I had was was that I was that I was separating from this part of my life that's been tied to me forever.
Sandy Cohan: Yep. Right. Identity kind of identity thing.
Ben: Right. And even today, like what I yeah, yeah, it was a bit of that. And what are people gonna think? And who will I be in my friend groups? And I think it was a and maybe often the case, I can't say always, but it's like that wasn't even something I needed to be scared of. The people that loved me are still everywhere around and supporting
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: me. So you you kind of make these things up sometimes.
Sandy Cohan: Yep. That un it's it's almost sometimes it gets, I think, stigmatized as not knowing or being fearful, but there's just it's uncertain, right? Uncertain doesn't mean bad, it just means it's uncertain, right? Right.
Ben: Beautiful. Beautiful point. Beautiful. I think that that's such an a powerful narrative. We st we think, end of career, we're we're uncertain about it. that's bad. They're on. It's like actually maybe stepping into that uncertainty is the place that you'll find the certainty you're looking for and the passion and the connection. I I think that's a great point. Yeah, totally.
Sandy Cohan: Yep. It's the growth zone, right? It's the growth zone. Yeah. So for you, what was the what was heroic minds before it was heroic minds? When when was the time when you said, you know what, I think here's here's the game plan. What what was that like?
Ben: Well, you you might laugh at this. Like I'll I'll never forget being in the my university at the time, Laurier gym. And I ran into a friend of mine I went to high school with. maybe this one of the smartest people I know, if not the smartest, his name's Ian Bickford. And I ran into him and and to be honest, through high school we knew of each other and you know we were not as close as we are today, let's say that. and we reconnected while at At university, and he came up to me one day in the gym and started, he was finishing his degree in philosophy. He's gone on to do PhD in computer science, a bunch of other things. Again, brilliant guy. And so I knew him as that, though. I knew him as this very intelligent, wise young man. And he starts talking to me about this stuff because he was, he did his degree in philosophy. And to be honest, the way I saw myself, you talk about the identity piece, I thought, I have, you know, I don't have a seat at this table. In my mind, I don't have a seat at the you know in-depth philosophy, morals, ethics conversation. I don't have a seat at that table. And he started entertaining my perspectives. And we ended up having amazing conversations that now, fast forward 15 years, we continue to. And that was it. That was one of the pivotal moments. I'll never forget it. Being on the treadmill, turning around, and we started chatting. And I thought, maybe I can. Have these conversations, like maybe I am smart enough. Like I'll use my narrative in my mind. I'm too dumb for that. I'm not smart enough to, you know, study that and get into that area of work. And that kind of kickstarted it and then was was then even more observant of human behavior and in the coaching, because I started coaching at men's hockey at the University of Waterloo, a university just up the road. And yeah, that's really what started it. And so then. Started the podcast, realized I would go back to school and do my master's program in counseling and psychotherapy, and here we are today.
Sandy Cohan: Was there along the way, do you remember kind of not gonna say evaluating each step, but were you were you okay with saying, I don't know exactly what I'm building or how this is gonna turn out? But I know that there's passion for it and you know, kind of being in that uncertainty, right? Because building something is not easy and there are those doubts sometimes, but what was it that kind of got you through that?
Ben: Got through it. You mean what's allowed me to create a life raft and and weather the storm every day? Yes.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And survive. Yeah, survive.
Ben: Yes. No, I'll yeah, I'll be honest. It's not a what did I do in the past? It's what do I continue to learn today? It's
Sandy Cohan: Love that.
Ben: it hasn't really changed, right? Like it's which I think is where I wanna be though. I I do. It's there'll be days where I am kind of You know, I'm working on finding time to pause and just not have to solve problems and do a bunch of things. I'm a work in progress too, and I say that to all my clients. So yeah, I I I wish I could give you a you know a beautiful, sexy answer of, here's what I did and here's why it's no problem today. but I'll be real instead. And I'm still learning how to how to navigate the uncertainty, stepping into a space of you know user experience, user design. front end, back end, and then partnerships and accounting and legalities and insurance. And it's a lot. It's a lot all at once. And again, great to have some really supportive, encouraging people. I was lucky to find an incredible developer to help take things to the next level. But yeah, it's it's the biggest thing has just been finding peace to the best of my ability with the immense number of unknowns that are Constantly around. And I think once you stop, this is gonna sound super simple and cliche, but once you stop worrying about those unknowns, it's like, I'm good. I'm floating. I'm great. We're moving in the right direction and everything's okay. So yeah, there are times where you just have to be like, okay, what am I? I can stir over this thing, but I'm not gonna do anything about it today. So learn to let go of certain things that aren't, you know, feeding you. And that's been the biggest thing. And I have to remind myself all the time.
Sandy Cohan: You've you've said a couple of things. This this is this is what's been the most interesting thing to me going through this podcast journey. We've put out a couple, maybe we've recorded, I can't remember, nine or or ten, but is seeing the the similarities of people that I have great respect for who I would look at as achievers. And all of them at some point or another during the conversation, they all say certain themes. And you've you've said a couple of them almost to a T. Which is the concept of control the controllables, which is not easy to do. and you know, really kind of a perspective thing, you are where your feet are. Like I remember my grandmother saying that to me when I was younger, and I had no
Ben: Mm-hmm.
Sandy Cohan: idea how relevant of a concept that was. But those two things, if I were to pull out two of the many DNA pieces of everyone that I've spoken to on this podcast journey, people such as yourself. They always come those two things are always, always included. And the third one is what you said is this concept of continuing to learn, right? Being a a constant learner. And is that is that surprise you to hear that? That those three?
Ben: Not not really. Not really. I think how people get there to those understandings or perspectives is all different. but but I think we, yeah, we I mean, look at sport. Let's jump back to sport for a second. How athletes get to this place is all maybe different, but at the end of the day, we love the idea of flow. I think it's incredible when you when you are able to describe it in the way that suggests you you're removed from the equation. Right. I think that's beautiful. I've I forget who described it that way or if it was a paper I was reading. There's experience and action, but you are removed. You is judgment of everything, right? And so that ego is kind of stripped away. And now all you're doing is observing the world around you and going with the next best option you have available to you, and that's it. And everything flows and the tensions reduced. And I think that's what I'm trying to adopt, even though it's not sport, trying to adopt that in in my work as well because it is so here's the controllable piece. It is so easy to look, well, this doesn't function like Instagram. well, this isn't the content's not as clear
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: as as LinkedIn. well, we don't have enough users as this place. Our contents, we don't have a content library big enough yet. It's like these are the things that could keep me up for weeks at a time, but you have to like that's goes back to the expectations. So if I if I could describe it today, it's like, yeah, in sport it's it's second to second, shift to shift. And now in this technology business side, it's day to day, week to week that you have to be able to remove or or create space between certain stimuli that can really suck you in and wear you, wear you down. So yeah, that's what I'm again continuing to work at every day.
Sandy Cohan: Outside of what for most people would be the bottom line, right? I mean, this is where everyone's trying to feed their family and stuff,
Ben: Mm-hmm.
Sandy Cohan: what what how do you evaluate your success? Like the things you're doing, if you're looking at your, you know, over the course of a week or you're talking to your team, like what what is success to you?
Ben: We have the qualitative or the quantitative side that now we've integrated a measurable side to the amount of time and lessons completed by the individuals on our platform. So finally creating something more objective and measurable when it comes to this whole mental health performance piece. Like we, it's I think it's time we graduate from the workshop and check the box and say everyone, everyone's gonna be fine and make it a lot more measurable. So that's the that's the quantitative side. The qualitative side is a little bit harder, right? Talking with coaches and talking with players. However, I it's it's tough to say I can I can measure it subjectively. I I did a workshop three weeks ago with a girls' soccer team about half an hour from me in Mississauga, and I left feeling Some of the best I've felt in a really long time because these girls were full of joy and compassion and connection and energy, and their coach was no different. And I don't know what else would be more important than that. And so that's that's how I measure it when I interact. And I and that's the thing, is it's now we've got this the in-person part of our work, at least at with heroic minds, and then we're We've got the education on the platform that's modern, measurable, all that stuff I talked about. And so it's structured that we do less in-person workshops, but we still have the workshops. And you can see when we do these presentations, there's way more questions and engagement in the second session. And by the third session, they're tell they're like rolling their eyes. They're like, we already know this. We already know this. And I'm
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: like, I get chills. Think literally, I just got chills saying
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: that to you because. There it is. And so when you say what is the overall mission, and I know I put myself out of a job when I say this, it's that what if we didn't wait for there to be crisis and debilitating anxiety,
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: and we didn't have the education in clunky clinical presentations or locked up in research departments or in three-hour podcasts where A lot of people are they're driving or they're working on the house or whatever, where we actually created a an applicable and effective curriculum for people beyond even just the social emotional intelligence, but nutrition and physical literacy, financial literacy, these really pertinent important parts of life that it just seems like a lot of people don't really know about or they hear it once and then when they need it, it's they gotta go back again. Like what if these ideas were made modern and relevant? in honestly being inspired by these platforms we currently see that have an interesting way of keeping people coming back. But what if we filled that with educational ideas that were empowering people? So maybe we did limit the amount of people that felt they needed to spend certain amounts of money to get one-on-one support, which I do think there's a place for that, don't get me wrong. But I think we could do a lot of work proactively and preventatively
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: with some modern education and and I would say that's the overall mission.
Sandy Cohan: How how do you navigate those those things when you put like your CEO hat on? How do you navigate all of those? I'm not gonna say challenges, but wearing wearing all of the different hats. When you wake up one day and you feel like your priority line is horizontal, right? And it's like, my gosh, we got this piece, we got this piece. And somewhere in your mind you're probably like, my gosh, I'm so in the business of the business. I'm not doing the part that I love about the business. So how do you navigate that? Which sa which probably sounds like an average Wednesday, right? Yeah, it's like every day. Yeah.
Ben: Yeah, exactly. You're like, welcome to my day every day. there's one. Yes, I'd love to be in person talking partnerships and working with athletes and working on the marketing. And there's an aspect to where sometimes you I just accept that okay, I don't get to do that right now. This is the you part, you find a way to, you know, enjoy. Where's my picture of here we go? Mike Tyson, right here, a picture in my office. Discipline is doing what you hate to do, but doing it like you love it.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: And that's kind of part of it. It's like, yeah, I'd want to be building this partnership with this company or this sporting organization. And there are just days where it's like, no, that's that conversation I want to have is going to be a lot easier if I'm if I dial in on this today. And that's again what's most important. There was a another way to describe it. This was early on in my journey. An individual that built a company and sold it to Google a long time ago. he he spent some time with me and he said, the one thing you're gonna have to work on and and get really good at is there's gonna be a thousand things you can do every day, and your job is to pick the most important three. And it's like that rings in my head multiple times a day, and I'll say it works. It's not easy, but you just you look at the domino. Okay, what's gonna make that thing I've got to do easier in the future? Or Another idea I've heard recently is the better your product, the less marketing you need. And so I I really like that. And yeah, a lot of people do do as many people know about heroic minds as I'd like? No. But hopefully that's if we do this in the most effective way, not just doing more and working the hardest, but if we do this in the most effective way, ideally that starts to take take care of itself and and we're starting to see that. So yeah, that's yeah.
Sandy Cohan: I I don't want to put words in your mouth, but maybe another way of saying what you just said, which which I think is very, very important. It sounds to me like you were suggesting this, that it's almost by by we all want the outcomes, but the irony of getting the outcomes is really to focus on the actions and behaviors that when and if you do them, they lead to those outcomes. Is that right? That's kinda like what you were saying.
Ben: Yes, and when you nailed it. And I would sprinkle in one of my favorite ideas I share all the time with my clients is you I love this, right? I for I love this mission I'm on and I love what I'm doing. And I'm very lucky to be able to say that and I realize it. It's so easy to forfeit that. It's so easy to give that up by wanting to be in a place you're not at
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: yet, or maybe you're not even supposed to be there yet. And there's this eastern. I think it's taken from, you know, Eastern philosophy is it was actually Alan Watts, I believe, in one of his monologues that said it, you know, you think of your favorite song. When you when you first turn on your favorite song, do you do you fast forward it to the end to get to the end as quick as possible? Or do you actually leave it at the at the pace it's supposed
Sandy Cohan: That's so that's so good. So good.
Ben: to be because that's what makes it the most beautiful it could be?
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: And that's a a reminder for me too. You know, and here's a a very you Maybe crazy example, but one I always think of because my I walk my dog every morning. not to stereotype. I have an Italian background. And a big thing, and at least with my family and my other Italian individuals that I played hockey with or that I know, a big thing is our our lawn, right? Your front lawn and your back lawn. And and it's getting it in tip top shape and getting rid of the weeds and all that stuff.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Ben: And so one day I was walking with my dog. And there are a couple houses in our neighborhood that like they they've just got it figured out. I don't know what the heck they're doing. They have a a handbook on lawns that I've never seen because
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: some of them are just they look like they've gone out with a pair of scissors with their hand and it's just perfect. Exactly, exactly. And I thought
Sandy Cohan: Yeah. They look like Augusta, Augusta National. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Ben: to myself, I'm like, wow, it'd be so nice if mine looked like that. And then I thought about it a little bit more and I walked. Past at this point, and I thought about it a little bit more. And then I thought, then what would I do? What would I do at the end of a long day where I enjoy going
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: out and picking weeds and my neighbors chirping me about it and making fun of me for it? And which is now me interacting with my neighbors. And it's just like, yeah, do I really actually want it to be perfect and like be there at this point? And I thought, no, I don't. I like the weeds and the where am I gonna seed and I've got to, you know, and the the jokes with my wife. She rolls her eyes but lovingly. And it's like that's actually what makes this whole thing about making my lawn as great as it can be is all the BS, so excuse my French, all the challenges and and stuff along the way that that does make it so fun. So that's that's something I try to remind myself of as well.
Sandy Cohan: When you think about the the guy that started heroic minds, what what or or co founded it, what what what would you say to him knowing now and the lessons you've learned? Like if you had to give him two pieces of advice, what what what do you think you would tell a younger Ben?
Ben: Don't be distracted or blinded by the things around you that you think are perfect and amazing, that we so often see on social media or or the news of yeah, don't be distracted by that. and that there's no more powerful place you can be than right here, right now.
Sandy Cohan: Those are two amazing ones. Yeah. And to to the to the best of your abilities, do you do you think that you are practicing those yourself? Like I know that would be the advice, but do you think that you are practicing those yourself?
Ben: To like the rest of us, I think not to speak for other people, I think we're all works in progress. And yeah, and I like I said, I'll I'll double down on it. I share that with my clients too. And and I say, you teach me something. Because
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: I'm learning on this journey as well. And, you know, that that competitive person that used their competitiveness in sport, I'm adopting a lot of the same methodologies and philosophies in what I do now, which means I also need those reminders to keep it between the mustard and the mayonnaise and Yeah, I would say continuing to be aware of assumptions and perspectives that can inhibit my ability to evolve and do my best here. That's that's pretty much it. Yeah, removing perspecti perfection completely out of the repertoire and one foot in front of the other. So no idea where this
Sandy Cohan: Do you find
Ben: is gonna go.
Sandy Cohan: do you find two more and then we'll let you go? Do you do you find that
Ben: Yeah, yeah.
Sandy Cohan: a lot of the younger people that you interact with, whether it be in a seminar or just any of your clients, do you find that they that that's a struggle understanding or mixing up the concept of perfection and progress? Like do you almost feel like you're rewiring for some of those people? Do you see that a lot?
Ben: Yeah, I don't, and and I think we all have a bit of a different idea of perfection, right? For some people, it's literally no turnovers at all. Right. The the iron the ironic one is you don't you your team loses the game, but you had two points and played pretty damn well, so you can walk away feeling good. The reverse
Sandy Cohan: Yep. Yep.
Ben: is also true. You know, team wins, you didn't, you had a couple turnovers, maybe no points, and you're like, right. And so It's I think a lot of that subjective on the perfection side. yeah, it's a it's going back to this this perspective of let's do more, let's move towards elite performance, constantly talking about performance and being better. What about the place of of being incredibly safe and secure before things are perfect? Quote unquote perfect again, right? That's and I think that's where I put the attention in our work is. Let's find safety and security in who we are right now today, not thinking all that safety is going to come in the future once I get 10 points, once I'm drafted, once I have X amount. How can we find safety and security now before all that becomes objectively real? also because it might not. Right. So it might be maybe more effective long term to work on finding security and safety in ourselves and with the people around us than in the objective world around us. So That's that's my my take on it. Yeah.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah. Yep. I I like to chat with people about the concept of helping them maximize their potential. I I I don't know what the journey or the dream is for them. And to some degree I'm almost I almost don't care. I want what's the the best for them, but helping people lead a life where they are maximizing everything that they can possibly be or do for me, that that's very, very empowering. And I I I think a lot of younger people, in my opinion, when I say younger, I'm 51. So basically anybody younger than me, but is is really struggling with that concept of like what does success mean? Yeah, because perfection, you know, it's like I don't even know if that's a possibility, but celebrating progress and being confident in yourself, being able to reevaluate your performance or readjust almost, you know. kind of reprogram, I think that's a skill that I really get a great deal of joy in helping people recognize that. You know?
Ben: Yeah, I if I could put I mean there's a lot of factors that would go into that. I'd say the one thing I've learned a lot lately that I think coincides with with that comment is when it comes from the I know there's internal and external factors, you know, guiding all of us. But I think when it when all of everything we've talked about today comes at the end of the day, one after it's learned and maybe understood, that it's it's coming from the inside. Right.
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: The the reason to do something, the motivation to do something. And I I'll give you a prime example. And I actually really like asking people this question now because they they it's it one, it packs a punch, but it's also there's humor to it. Right. And so I'll say to an individual, I'll say, you know, let's hypothetically you come home from school one day or you finish work one day, and there's a difficult task you have to complete. But you feel for whatever reason in this moment, you're just like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna get it done. I either I want to get it done or it's gonna make someone else happy. So I'm just gonna do it. I'm exhausted, but I'll just right shoveling the driveway, cleaning the kitchen, finishing the homework,
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: whatever, doing the laundry, whatever it might be. I'm just gonna do it. And you you're just about to start, and someone else comes up to you and says, Hey, make sure you shovel the driveway. Hey, make sure you get your homework done. Hey, make sure you And instantly, just like the grin on your face right now, they grin and they say, right? And they say, I'm not doing it anymore, or right. The eye exactly, right? The eye
Sandy Cohan: I know exactly where you're going with. Yep. Yeah, I was about to say that. Yep.
Ben: roll. And so I think there's so many factors right now or variables from the outside that are driving a lot of people to want to do things, which I think, in my perspective of things, leads to a lot of fear. It's I have to or else. And Bringing coming back to you said maximizing one's potential. Our program is, you know, business is heroic minds thinking embedded in the ideas around heroism. And I think one thing we I've learned, and maybe this is my articulation of the different philosophies around heroism, is that Yes, you want to beautify the world around you, right? You're you're driven to beautify the world around you. And in turn, that beautifies your life is a very super simple explanation of it. But to be able to do that, you have to be able to rise up and be that person that can then beautify the world around you. So the step is that
Sandy Cohan: That's right.
Ben: it's and it's and it's almost like I say this in the in the we'll focus on the sporting perspective. I say this with clients, like when you show up to play, it's for you first. Right. And that comes off as very selfish. It's for because in sport we often hear do it for the team, do it for the s coaches, do it for yes, beautiful. Sure. That's going to be step two. When you show up, you're doing it for you. You're not distracted anymore by the world around you or the opinions of others because you're there for you. And I ask this question when you're there out for recess, you're not there be for anyone else. You're just you haven't you couldn't even wait for that opportunity. Once that bell went, it was pure adventure and excitement. And that's for you. And so who are you when you're at recess and when you're doing something purely for yourself? Are you a little more patient? Are you a little more calm? Do you probably make better decisions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? And they're like, yes, yes, yes. And I say, who benefits from that? Their teammates, their coaches, everyone else around them. And there we are, Max.
Sandy Cohan: Yep. That's right. In order in order to be a better teammate, whatever, like you you have to be
Ben: Bingo.
Sandy Cohan: the best version of yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben: Bingo. And so trying to bring a lot of that into my work and then yeah, then you take that and put it, you know, plug that energy and passion you have into whatever you're doing. And yeah, there's another a major piece that comes up in the work that I do.
Sandy Cohan: Well, thank you honestly so much. I mean I could talk to you all day. If people want to learn more about you or the work that you're doing, where would you like for us to send them or where should they go to learn more about it?
Ben: Well they can yeah. I mean the internet's a magical tool. It's Ben Finelli, B-E-N-F-A-N-E-L-L-I, and Heroic Minds. Just type that in and you'll be connected to the work that we're doing. I would encourage people, Heroic Minds, you can jump on. It's free. They jump on create an account. We're encouraging not only people to interact with the education from professionals around the world, but we have a journal feature as well where people are encouraged to share things that life is teaching them that may benefit someone else. So encourage all of your listeners to at least give that a a sample and we're growing. So it'd be nice to have your your followers along with us.
Sandy Cohan: It's been awesome watching you create this. And I I did mean when I said at the beginning that even from afar though, I mean, I have such great respect for you. You've always been so kind with your time. This guy you didn't know a while ago, pinning you, asking you questions. You've you've really treated me with a great amount of respect. And I really, I really appreciate that. and for those folks who are listening, thanks so much for spending time with us on Always Coachable. If this episode gave you something, we ask that you share it with someone who's still growing and you can find us wherever. You get your podcasts and on YouTube at Sandy Cohen Official. Remember that the best never think they've arrived. So stay curious, stay humble, stay coachable. I'm Sandy Cohen, and we will see you next time.
Ben: Thank you so much for having me. Geez, now there's big shoes. After an intro like that, I little and
Sandy Cohan: Yep, show's over. Thanks for coming. Show's over.
Ben: exactly. You know, I I appreciate the introduction and I know that's what, you know, people on the surface will will see due to you know how the internet works. And I'd say, you know, it wasn't just me. You know, you say I, you know, he was able to or Ben was able to. And and I think the reality is there was an army at my back. I yeah, sure it was an an unlucky situation in a you know highly competitive physical sport. But at the same time, what what I feel sometimes people miss is the army at my back. And that of course is what drives the work that I do today of you know What can what can people really do when not only is there people helping them, maybe the initial steps in their journey, they need a little bit of, you know, a couple hands on that foot helping move that next step, but also just tapping someone on the shoulders and saying, like, I actually think you can do this. I mean, it's so easy at times to look around when nothing objectively looks like success or progress and other people, if needed, you know, can sometimes help you believe in something that doesn't yet exist. so I was very lucky to have that. Yeah, go ahead.
Sandy Cohan: You you kind you kinda j you kinda you kinda just answered it and I think that I know how you're going to answer it, but that intro is I know sometimes people get a little squeamish when they hear those things said about themselves, but is that how you see yourself?
Ben: Yeah, I I see myself as the collection of lessons from a bunch of people that probably don't even know. I have taken little bits from their lives. some outwardly do. I try and remind my parents all the time of what they've taught me when maybe they didn't even notice. and I think that's another big thing maybe we can get into of
Sandy Cohan: Sure.
Ben: the the subtlety in how we teach other people. But yeah, I would see myself as the collection of of what I would subjectively say ideal character traits and behaviors and habits of of other people. And I'm very lucky to have that. Very lucky to have those people in my environment at different points in my life that have taught me those things.
Sandy Cohan: In where do you think that came from? You kind of just mentioned your your family, but in your younger years, being an accomplished hockey player, even even without the the injury, and I know that's probably a pivotal part in your story, but what was what was Ben like back then? did did do you think you had those those characteristics?
Ben: It's a great question. I, to the best of my ability, and now I'm learning more and more every day, this this whole performance or resilience, these these high-level terms we use are so multidimensional. And you know, you could, I mean, look around, just scroll through LinkedIn. There's people from every different domain saying, here's the key to performance. Here's so we know it's multidimensional. And if I could use a reductionist perspective and bring it down to something that it could have been, I had two parents that were, you know, on one side, I I had the endless optimist in my father, and I had still an optimist, but the more rationalist in my mother. And
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: I'm going to posit that in that coexistence of those two things, it was You know, I was a bit of a rug rat running around doing a million things. I feel sorry for my parents. And as as I, you know, my wife and I look to to have kids in the near future here. We're kinda worried. Hopefully they're not too much like we were as kids, but but that may be how w
Sandy Cohan: That's that's like that's the big thing, right? Just hopefully yeah, hopefully they don't turn out like we were when we were kids. Right.
Ben: Exactly, exactly. I'm sure though they will be. But yeah, that's what I would say. If I could try and put my finger on it, I I don't know how I was in a place where I could dream a million dreams. I I very much did as a kid, that anything was possible. And it was never my parents telling me what was or was not possible. It was just me kind of dreaming on my own. and then the the aspect of the the rational side of my mom, it wasn't you can't do this. It's It was more about let's have a conversation of what this could take and if you want to sign up for that. Because if you sign up for it, it's you signing up for it, not us. We're not the ones lifting everything for you, moving boulders out of the way for you. That's gonna if you choose to do this, whatever it was at the time, that it's gonna be you that makes that decision. And so I I'm again, it's a tough question to answer and have full no whether be evidence or certainty. but I I think if I look back at my childhood, that was a that was a big part of it.
Sandy Cohan: Do you think that your success in athletics, in hockey was do you think that played a role that you kind of had that perspective, which is not super normal for younger people, right? Do you think that's something that you had?
Ben: Yeah, I I followed the trajectory I hear about every day in my work. It was play the game, have tons of fun. That was the only thing my, you know, it was yeah, it was predominantly my dad that oversaw things when it came to the the sport side. But I don't want to, you know, we're at a time where I think my mom is unbelievably athletic. She's just hesitant to showcase it. I remember when she came on the
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: outdoor rink, I've seen us play ridiculous games like Trying to throw things in the garbage as a competition with my dad
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: and my mom. Like my mom is very athletic. but yeah, I think, I think that was the one rule was like, this is about fun, Ben. And if if you're not gonna bring an approach of love and and joy to this, then we have to have a conversation. That was the only time I I ever had a serious conversation about sport ever, was when I was feeling sorry for myself, because I, you know, maybe underperformed from the expectations I set out for myself. But yeah, I've I followed that trend trajectory of like figure out how good you can be, have tons of fun and joy. And then I think that's what allowed me to develop certain skills in in hockey and and soccer and some other sports that I I had a lot of fun in. And then I'm and then it kind of you realize once you realize how good you are, the expectations set in and the failure avoidance sets in. And you know, I I for sure had experiences in those cases as well.
Sandy Cohan: Do you remember seeing maybe other, maybe your friends or other people on your team or or within the various sports? Do you remember seeing other players who it wasn't a skill thing, but maybe they lacked what you just said, the fun element or you know, just kind of the perspective element? Do do you remember seeing that and maybe recognizing, gosh, that's a reason maybe why they aren't? progressing like that that that you had a different perspective than they may have had?
Ben: I'll be honest, I think at times I had the same perspective as them. I wasn't aware of the ideas that I now look at today, that you look at today and research today, and that you're pushing out into the world and that other people in in similar air arenas to you and I, that what we're doing, pushing out these messages, that the joy and love and passion is very often the antidote to a lot of the self-doubt
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: and failure avoidance. But I would say what was more surprising, because I think that's kind of easy. It's like, yeah, we look around, it's like They're worried about making mistakes. They're worried about what mom and dad are gonna think. They're worried about if they don't get to the NHL. What was most fascinating was the opposite. Was the the Jeff Skinners, the Landis Cogs, the Tobias Readers,
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: the Radic Faxas, the John Gibsons, the Ryan Murphy's, the John Moores, the list goes on. Like they all came from completely different backgrounds, different parts of the world. Different abilities, very much so, size, strength, skating, shooting, passing, patience, etc. They all had, but the underlying theme across all of those individuals I named for your hockey listeners, but will recognize at least a few of those names. The underlying piece was that they did it for no one else other than themselves. And to you know, go down even further, like game day. Game day was another day. Well, they how they came to the rink on practice day for some of them, and how they came to the rink on game day was pretty much the same thing. No forward thinking into the future. Their feet were their mind was where their feet were. and at the same time, in that group, you had individuals that would exercise before games. You had ones that wouldn't really warm up. You had ones that were really dialed in on their nutrition, you had ones that really didn't think too hard about what they were putting in their body, and yet they all made it to the top of the mountain of which so many are trying to make it to. So that was that's the part that fascinated me the most and what continued curiosity with that is what drives me to keep learning in the work that I do because I don't a lot of the messaging today fits a nice aesthetic, right? It's all about grinding, it's all about doing more, it's no weekends off, more, more, more. And you you zoom out and you start to listen to some of the individuals at the top of their game right now at the professional level. And to me, there's a there's a bit of a disconnect, right? There's a lot of athletes talking about the the attention they put on balance in their life now and focusing on their family and and other hobbies or interests. I mean, Jokic in the NBA is one of my favorite stories to share. It wins an NBA championship, seems like he doesn't care. And then a few weeks later, his racing horse wins a race and he he's crying, tears of joy. And and I'm like, yes, world, sporting world, let's sit with that. All of us, let's sit around a table and sit with that and figure out wait, wait a second. That doesn't match the Nike commercial. That doesn't match
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: the Olympic commercial. What is going on there? Because he had immense success. He's one of the, from what I know, I'm not a huge basketball follower to know all the stats, but I believe he's very much in the top tier of of performance in the NBA. And there he is objectively showing. I don't know what you call it, more compassion, love, joy for his racing horse winning a race. And when he wins the biggest trophy he can in his sport, he's like, yeah, pretty good, happy with the team. And I think that's what fascinates me.
Sandy Cohan: What what do you what do you think that what do you think that is though? That that's such a that's such an interesting point. Do you do you think it's balanced? Do you think it's perspective? Is that is that a learned perspective? Is it learned balance? I I agree with you a hundred percent. A lot of the players I talk with or the athletes, like the the fun or quote, the off time is not is not what you manage to fit in when you're not On, like that becomes built into the program, right? But what what do you think it is for in that example that you just said? Is it perspective? What is it?
Ben: I I think that's where it starts, right? Those are that's kind of the surface of the water. We talk perspective, we talk balance. Athletes hear that, and it's very cognitive, it's very conscious. So I don't think it runs deep enough to actually create the safety of what's really going on. And so you asked, you know, what do you think it is? And this is my hypothesis that it comes down to safety. I I think it's beyond sport. I do, I think sport. We use a lot of the bud buzzwords, right? Performance anxiety. We use overthinking,
Sandy Cohan: Sure.
Ben: but we don't want to use the word fear. But look at the symptoms of fear and anxious attachment and anxiety, which I don't know if we want to open that door yet, you know, to the to the very human side of performance.
Sandy Cohan: D do you think because it's perceived weakness, do you think that's what it is?
Ben: It could be. I mean, I mean, this the overthinking, hyperfic focus, tension in the body, trying to control variables we don't actually have control of that are counterproductive to what we're actually trying to do. Like these are a lot of just everyday symptoms of what we would call
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: fear, but we don't use that term. And so the question to me is not you know the surface of we need perspective, we need balance. It's why is everyone so scared? And then I think we can really open up a really interesting, human-centered, relatable conversation. And that's what I try to do in my work because we, you know, for sure, the breathing exercises and the reframing and the narratives that we have in our minds, sure, those are great to talk about and and to consider. My big thing is instead of just finding different buckets to put under the leak, how do we go fix that leak? Like, how do we have a relationship with sport where I'm running out for recess every time I step on the ice. And I I mean, I observe the best of the best. I don't even know if I should use that term. Let's say performance specifically in front of 30,000, 40,000 people. And that's what I see. I I see a It's not that the competitiveness is removed, right? Like, it's just about fun. Like, you can't have fun and perform under pressure with a three-point
Sandy Cohan: Right, right.
Ben: shot to win the game or being the last shooter and the shootout. And still, it's like, yes, you can. Those two things can coexist. And I think the the variable that is the difference maker is safety. Whatever's going to happen in the next 10 seconds or 20 seconds, on the other side of that, I'm going to be safe. I'm going to be okay. And when that's when
Sandy Cohan: You
Ben: that's the perspective, I think now all the abilities that that that individual's been building for years can now effortlessly come to the surface.
Sandy Cohan: Do you think when you say safety, I I do you think it's safety from judgment, safety from evaluation, from be being perceived as less than or vulnerable? Is that what you mean when you say safety?
Ben: I would say maybe those buckets you just listed, I would say yes, different for different people. Is it
Sandy Cohan: Sure.
Ben: fear of the future financially? Is it fear of the future opinion of of ones that whose whose perspectives we greatly consider and put a lot of weight into? Is it social? yeah, there's different types of Causation of fear. And so yeah, I would say it's a across the board bits of each one of those. And now that's I want to be clear, that's my perspective and
Sandy Cohan: Sure.
Ben: opinion and hypothesis. I'm not saying that's black and white the truth, but I I just here's an example. Like I think one of the most interesting things I've seen in my work is Christmas holiday for athletes that I work with. Let's let's focus on hockey as a little niche down there. When they go home for Christmas, no conversations with me. No psychology philosophy, thought reframing, et cetera. They go home for Christmas, they come back lighter, freer, more optimistic, more positive, more excited, more energy.
Sandy Cohan: Always, right? Always.
Ben: And so it's like, well, what's going on there? Why don't we kind of instead of the focus on grinding and more and more? And it's like, well, what happens? They go home for three days to five days and they're just rejuvenated and ready to go. Well, well, let's look at what's going on there. There's a break from the tension, both internal and external tension that's there. There's attention given to other life values and pillars in their life. There's nurturing of what appears to be an important part of the human experience, which is social connection. So I find that very fascinating. And I think it does require a pause and a zooming out. of the whole perspective and again relationship with elite sport that I d I'm not gonna sit here and say I have all the answers, but I got a list of questions that I I look to to try and move closer to answers on in my work.
Sandy Cohan: Do you think that that what what you just said that that do you think that that is being kind of beaten out of people to remember or do you think it's something that's just not being taught?
Ben: That's a brilliant question. I'll s sometimes I think I don't know if it's being yeah, it's a but
Sandy Cohan: Maybe it's a both and. Maybe it's a both and, kinda.
Ben: it could be. I mean, I'll I'll say anecdotally, and I'm I'm not saying this is across the board, but anecdotally I see currently, you know, whether it's a team deciding to do a workshop or have one of these conversations, it's obvious it's often kind of. shimmed in to after practice at eight o'clock at night or nine o'clock at night after these athletes have been in
Sandy Cohan: Yeah. It's an afterthought, sure.
Ben: yeah and then we fit it in and we kind of force it on them instead of allowing it to coexist in the experience. And and again a hypothesis I have would be well what if it wasn't even a workshop? It was actually just integrated into sport. We we
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: we celebrated the processing and the what athletes do after a mistake versus stopping the entire practice, hyperfixating on the mistake and and reinforcing this narrative that we are we need to teach our nervous system to keep an eye out for mistakes because they're a huge problem. Right. That I think that would be more productive than having a workshop, some external voice coming in and saying, hey, it's okay to make mistakes. I don't know if that is as effective as it being completely integrated into the sport. And and there are organizations that are doing it and there are coaches that are doing it. And you do you feel the difference. I mean, you do enough workshops with athletes too. You walk into that locker room or or meeting space. Yeah,
Sandy Cohan: Culture, it's it's a cultural thing.
Ben: yeah. So that's what I think. I think it can be integrated into the curriculum of sport versus our current model of having it slivered in at the end or you know somewhat forced upon them from an outside voice. So, anyways, I I think we're all learning and growing in this.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: And hey, back in the day, I think it was more objective, right? numbers, stats, pick the best, and let's keep moving forward. And now we're like, maybe there's actually an ability to bring up the capacity to perform in all these individuals by shifting how we speak about performance and how we even talk about the the narrative and mission of each individual's sporting journey itself.
Sandy Cohan: When your playing career ended, from there to heroic minds launching, what take me there. What what was what was that time like in your life? what what led to moving into that direction of creating something like heroic minds?
Ben: Hmm. I think I jumped in, I completely just jumped into life outside of sport. yeah, I I was already in school at Wilford Laurier, which was in the same town that I played junior hockey in. So I was already going to school there. So I just took on more courses, jumped into campus activities, and actually started bartending too. There was a bar in town. I was still connected in the community, public speaking, going to schools. I just, yeah, there was no time off to kind of contemplate. It was jump right into life outside of sport, whether I was ready or not, or whether I knew what I was going to fall in love with next. I had no idea.
Sandy Cohan: Were you nervous? Were you nervous that you didn't know what it was going to be? Or were you just excited for the next chapter?
Ben: I I was excited to find what it was going to be. I don't I don't know why I wasn't. It's a good question. I don't know why I wasn't. I would say I was, it wasn't fear. Here's the here's how I would put it, actually. It's a great question because I've never been asked it. It wasn't fear of what I was gonna do. The only fear I had was was that I was that I was separating from this part of my life that's been tied to me forever.
Sandy Cohan: Yep. Right. Identity kind of identity thing.
Ben: Right. And even today, like what I yeah, yeah, it was a bit of that. And what are people gonna think? And who will I be in my friend groups? And I think it was a and maybe often the case, I can't say always, but it's like that wasn't even something I needed to be scared of. The people that loved me are still everywhere around and supporting
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: me. So you you kind of make these things up sometimes.
Sandy Cohan: Yep. That un it's it's almost sometimes it gets, I think, stigmatized as not knowing or being fearful, but there's just it's uncertain, right? Uncertain doesn't mean bad, it just means it's uncertain, right? Right.
Ben: Beautiful. Beautiful point. Beautiful. I think that that's such an a powerful narrative. We st we think, end of career, we're we're uncertain about it. that's bad. They're on. It's like actually maybe stepping into that uncertainty is the place that you'll find the certainty you're looking for and the passion and the connection. I I think that's a great point. Yeah, totally.
Sandy Cohan: Yep. It's the growth zone, right? It's the growth zone. Yeah. So for you, what was the what was heroic minds before it was heroic minds? When when was the time when you said, you know what, I think here's here's the game plan. What what was that like?
Ben: Well, you you might laugh at this. Like I'll I'll never forget being in the my university at the time, Laurier gym. And I ran into a friend of mine I went to high school with. maybe this one of the smartest people I know, if not the smartest, his name's Ian Bickford. And I ran into him and and to be honest, through high school we knew of each other and you know we were not as close as we are today, let's say that. and we reconnected while at At university, and he came up to me one day in the gym and started, he was finishing his degree in philosophy. He's gone on to do PhD in computer science, a bunch of other things. Again, brilliant guy. And so I knew him as that, though. I knew him as this very intelligent, wise young man. And he starts talking to me about this stuff because he was, he did his degree in philosophy. And to be honest, the way I saw myself, you talk about the identity piece, I thought, I have, you know, I don't have a seat at this table. In my mind, I don't have a seat at the you know in-depth philosophy, morals, ethics conversation. I don't have a seat at that table. And he started entertaining my perspectives. And we ended up having amazing conversations that now, fast forward 15 years, we continue to. And that was it. That was one of the pivotal moments. I'll never forget it. Being on the treadmill, turning around, and we started chatting. And I thought, maybe I can. Have these conversations, like maybe I am smart enough. Like I'll use my narrative in my mind. I'm too dumb for that. I'm not smart enough to, you know, study that and get into that area of work. And that kind of kickstarted it and then was was then even more observant of human behavior and in the coaching, because I started coaching at men's hockey at the University of Waterloo, a university just up the road. And yeah, that's really what started it. And so then. Started the podcast, realized I would go back to school and do my master's program in counseling and psychotherapy, and here we are today.
Sandy Cohan: Was there along the way, do you remember kind of not gonna say evaluating each step, but were you were you okay with saying, I don't know exactly what I'm building or how this is gonna turn out? But I know that there's passion for it and you know, kind of being in that uncertainty, right? Because building something is not easy and there are those doubts sometimes, but what was it that kind of got you through that?
Ben: Got through it. You mean what's allowed me to create a life raft and and weather the storm every day? Yes.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And survive. Yeah, survive.
Ben: Yes. No, I'll yeah, I'll be honest. It's not a what did I do in the past? It's what do I continue to learn today? It's
Sandy Cohan: Love that.
Ben: it hasn't really changed, right? Like it's which I think is where I wanna be though. I I do. It's there'll be days where I am kind of You know, I'm working on finding time to pause and just not have to solve problems and do a bunch of things. I'm a work in progress too, and I say that to all my clients. So yeah, I I I wish I could give you a you know a beautiful, sexy answer of, here's what I did and here's why it's no problem today. but I'll be real instead. And I'm still learning how to how to navigate the uncertainty, stepping into a space of you know user experience, user design. front end, back end, and then partnerships and accounting and legalities and insurance. And it's a lot. It's a lot all at once. And again, great to have some really supportive, encouraging people. I was lucky to find an incredible developer to help take things to the next level. But yeah, it's it's the biggest thing has just been finding peace to the best of my ability with the immense number of unknowns that are Constantly around. And I think once you stop, this is gonna sound super simple and cliche, but once you stop worrying about those unknowns, it's like, I'm good. I'm floating. I'm great. We're moving in the right direction and everything's okay. So yeah, there are times where you just have to be like, okay, what am I? I can stir over this thing, but I'm not gonna do anything about it today. So learn to let go of certain things that aren't, you know, feeding you. And that's been the biggest thing. And I have to remind myself all the time.
Sandy Cohan: You've you've said a couple of things. This this is this is what's been the most interesting thing to me going through this podcast journey. We've put out a couple, maybe we've recorded, I can't remember, nine or or ten, but is seeing the the similarities of people that I have great respect for who I would look at as achievers. And all of them at some point or another during the conversation, they all say certain themes. And you've you've said a couple of them almost to a T. Which is the concept of control the controllables, which is not easy to do. and you know, really kind of a perspective thing, you are where your feet are. Like I remember my grandmother saying that to me when I was younger, and I had no
Ben: Mm-hmm.
Sandy Cohan: idea how relevant of a concept that was. But those two things, if I were to pull out two of the many DNA pieces of everyone that I've spoken to on this podcast journey, people such as yourself. They always come those two things are always, always included. And the third one is what you said is this concept of continuing to learn, right? Being a a constant learner. And is that is that surprise you to hear that? That those three?
Ben: Not not really. Not really. I think how people get there to those understandings or perspectives is all different. but but I think we, yeah, we I mean, look at sport. Let's jump back to sport for a second. How athletes get to this place is all maybe different, but at the end of the day, we love the idea of flow. I think it's incredible when you when you are able to describe it in the way that suggests you you're removed from the equation. Right. I think that's beautiful. I've I forget who described it that way or if it was a paper I was reading. There's experience and action, but you are removed. You is judgment of everything, right? And so that ego is kind of stripped away. And now all you're doing is observing the world around you and going with the next best option you have available to you, and that's it. And everything flows and the tensions reduced. And I think that's what I'm trying to adopt, even though it's not sport, trying to adopt that in in my work as well because it is so here's the controllable piece. It is so easy to look, well, this doesn't function like Instagram. well, this isn't the content's not as clear
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: as as LinkedIn. well, we don't have enough users as this place. Our contents, we don't have a content library big enough yet. It's like these are the things that could keep me up for weeks at a time, but you have to like that's goes back to the expectations. So if I if I could describe it today, it's like, yeah, in sport it's it's second to second, shift to shift. And now in this technology business side, it's day to day, week to week that you have to be able to remove or or create space between certain stimuli that can really suck you in and wear you, wear you down. So yeah, that's what I'm again continuing to work at every day.
Sandy Cohan: Outside of what for most people would be the bottom line, right? I mean, this is where everyone's trying to feed their family and stuff,
Ben: Mm-hmm.
Sandy Cohan: what what how do you evaluate your success? Like the things you're doing, if you're looking at your, you know, over the course of a week or you're talking to your team, like what what is success to you?
Ben: We have the qualitative or the quantitative side that now we've integrated a measurable side to the amount of time and lessons completed by the individuals on our platform. So finally creating something more objective and measurable when it comes to this whole mental health performance piece. Like we, it's I think it's time we graduate from the workshop and check the box and say everyone, everyone's gonna be fine and make it a lot more measurable. So that's the that's the quantitative side. The qualitative side is a little bit harder, right? Talking with coaches and talking with players. However, I it's it's tough to say I can I can measure it subjectively. I I did a workshop three weeks ago with a girls' soccer team about half an hour from me in Mississauga, and I left feeling Some of the best I've felt in a really long time because these girls were full of joy and compassion and connection and energy, and their coach was no different. And I don't know what else would be more important than that. And so that's that's how I measure it when I interact. And I and that's the thing, is it's now we've got this the in-person part of our work, at least at with heroic minds, and then we're We've got the education on the platform that's modern, measurable, all that stuff I talked about. And so it's structured that we do less in-person workshops, but we still have the workshops. And you can see when we do these presentations, there's way more questions and engagement in the second session. And by the third session, they're tell they're like rolling their eyes. They're like, we already know this. We already know this. And I'm
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: like, I get chills. Think literally, I just got chills saying
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: that to you because. There it is. And so when you say what is the overall mission, and I know I put myself out of a job when I say this, it's that what if we didn't wait for there to be crisis and debilitating anxiety,
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: and we didn't have the education in clunky clinical presentations or locked up in research departments or in three-hour podcasts where A lot of people are they're driving or they're working on the house or whatever, where we actually created a an applicable and effective curriculum for people beyond even just the social emotional intelligence, but nutrition and physical literacy, financial literacy, these really pertinent important parts of life that it just seems like a lot of people don't really know about or they hear it once and then when they need it, it's they gotta go back again. Like what if these ideas were made modern and relevant? in honestly being inspired by these platforms we currently see that have an interesting way of keeping people coming back. But what if we filled that with educational ideas that were empowering people? So maybe we did limit the amount of people that felt they needed to spend certain amounts of money to get one-on-one support, which I do think there's a place for that, don't get me wrong. But I think we could do a lot of work proactively and preventatively
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: with some modern education and and I would say that's the overall mission.
Sandy Cohan: How how do you navigate those those things when you put like your CEO hat on? How do you navigate all of those? I'm not gonna say challenges, but wearing wearing all of the different hats. When you wake up one day and you feel like your priority line is horizontal, right? And it's like, my gosh, we got this piece, we got this piece. And somewhere in your mind you're probably like, my gosh, I'm so in the business of the business. I'm not doing the part that I love about the business. So how do you navigate that? Which sa which probably sounds like an average Wednesday, right? Yeah, it's like every day. Yeah.
Ben: Yeah, exactly. You're like, welcome to my day every day. there's one. Yes, I'd love to be in person talking partnerships and working with athletes and working on the marketing. And there's an aspect to where sometimes you I just accept that okay, I don't get to do that right now. This is the you part, you find a way to, you know, enjoy. Where's my picture of here we go? Mike Tyson, right here, a picture in my office. Discipline is doing what you hate to do, but doing it like you love it.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: And that's kind of part of it. It's like, yeah, I'd want to be building this partnership with this company or this sporting organization. And there are just days where it's like, no, that's that conversation I want to have is going to be a lot easier if I'm if I dial in on this today. And that's again what's most important. There was a another way to describe it. This was early on in my journey. An individual that built a company and sold it to Google a long time ago. he he spent some time with me and he said, the one thing you're gonna have to work on and and get really good at is there's gonna be a thousand things you can do every day, and your job is to pick the most important three. And it's like that rings in my head multiple times a day, and I'll say it works. It's not easy, but you just you look at the domino. Okay, what's gonna make that thing I've got to do easier in the future? Or Another idea I've heard recently is the better your product, the less marketing you need. And so I I really like that. And yeah, a lot of people do do as many people know about heroic minds as I'd like? No. But hopefully that's if we do this in the most effective way, not just doing more and working the hardest, but if we do this in the most effective way, ideally that starts to take take care of itself and and we're starting to see that. So yeah, that's yeah.
Sandy Cohan: I I don't want to put words in your mouth, but maybe another way of saying what you just said, which which I think is very, very important. It sounds to me like you were suggesting this, that it's almost by by we all want the outcomes, but the irony of getting the outcomes is really to focus on the actions and behaviors that when and if you do them, they lead to those outcomes. Is that right? That's kinda like what you were saying.
Ben: Yes, and when you nailed it. And I would sprinkle in one of my favorite ideas I share all the time with my clients is you I love this, right? I for I love this mission I'm on and I love what I'm doing. And I'm very lucky to be able to say that and I realize it. It's so easy to forfeit that. It's so easy to give that up by wanting to be in a place you're not at
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: yet, or maybe you're not even supposed to be there yet. And there's this eastern. I think it's taken from, you know, Eastern philosophy is it was actually Alan Watts, I believe, in one of his monologues that said it, you know, you think of your favorite song. When you when you first turn on your favorite song, do you do you fast forward it to the end to get to the end as quick as possible? Or do you actually leave it at the at the pace it's supposed
Sandy Cohan: That's so that's so good. So good.
Ben: to be because that's what makes it the most beautiful it could be?
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: And that's a a reminder for me too. You know, and here's a a very you Maybe crazy example, but one I always think of because my I walk my dog every morning. not to stereotype. I have an Italian background. And a big thing, and at least with my family and my other Italian individuals that I played hockey with or that I know, a big thing is our our lawn, right? Your front lawn and your back lawn. And and it's getting it in tip top shape and getting rid of the weeds and all that stuff.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Ben: And so one day I was walking with my dog. And there are a couple houses in our neighborhood that like they they've just got it figured out. I don't know what the heck they're doing. They have a a handbook on lawns that I've never seen because
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: some of them are just they look like they've gone out with a pair of scissors with their hand and it's just perfect. Exactly, exactly. And I thought
Sandy Cohan: Yeah. They look like Augusta, Augusta National. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Ben: to myself, I'm like, wow, it'd be so nice if mine looked like that. And then I thought about it a little bit more and I walked. Past at this point, and I thought about it a little bit more. And then I thought, then what would I do? What would I do at the end of a long day where I enjoy going
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: out and picking weeds and my neighbors chirping me about it and making fun of me for it? And which is now me interacting with my neighbors. And it's just like, yeah, do I really actually want it to be perfect and like be there at this point? And I thought, no, I don't. I like the weeds and the where am I gonna seed and I've got to, you know, and the the jokes with my wife. She rolls her eyes but lovingly. And it's like that's actually what makes this whole thing about making my lawn as great as it can be is all the BS, so excuse my French, all the challenges and and stuff along the way that that does make it so fun. So that's that's something I try to remind myself of as well.
Sandy Cohan: When you think about the the guy that started heroic minds, what what or or co founded it, what what what would you say to him knowing now and the lessons you've learned? Like if you had to give him two pieces of advice, what what what do you think you would tell a younger Ben?
Ben: Don't be distracted or blinded by the things around you that you think are perfect and amazing, that we so often see on social media or or the news of yeah, don't be distracted by that. and that there's no more powerful place you can be than right here, right now.
Sandy Cohan: Those are two amazing ones. Yeah. And to to the to the best of your abilities, do you do you think that you are practicing those yourself? Like I know that would be the advice, but do you think that you are practicing those yourself?
Ben: To like the rest of us, I think not to speak for other people, I think we're all works in progress. And yeah, and I like I said, I'll I'll double down on it. I share that with my clients too. And and I say, you teach me something. Because
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: I'm learning on this journey as well. And, you know, that that competitive person that used their competitiveness in sport, I'm adopting a lot of the same methodologies and philosophies in what I do now, which means I also need those reminders to keep it between the mustard and the mayonnaise and Yeah, I would say continuing to be aware of assumptions and perspectives that can inhibit my ability to evolve and do my best here. That's that's pretty much it. Yeah, removing perspecti perfection completely out of the repertoire and one foot in front of the other. So no idea where this
Sandy Cohan: Do you find
Ben: is gonna go.
Sandy Cohan: do you find two more and then we'll let you go? Do you do you find that
Ben: Yeah, yeah.
Sandy Cohan: a lot of the younger people that you interact with, whether it be in a seminar or just any of your clients, do you find that they that that's a struggle understanding or mixing up the concept of perfection and progress? Like do you almost feel like you're rewiring for some of those people? Do you see that a lot?
Ben: Yeah, I don't, and and I think we all have a bit of a different idea of perfection, right? For some people, it's literally no turnovers at all. Right. The the iron the ironic one is you don't you your team loses the game, but you had two points and played pretty damn well, so you can walk away feeling good. The reverse
Sandy Cohan: Yep. Yep.
Ben: is also true. You know, team wins, you didn't, you had a couple turnovers, maybe no points, and you're like, right. And so It's I think a lot of that subjective on the perfection side. yeah, it's a it's going back to this this perspective of let's do more, let's move towards elite performance, constantly talking about performance and being better. What about the place of of being incredibly safe and secure before things are perfect? Quote unquote perfect again, right? That's and I think that's where I put the attention in our work is. Let's find safety and security in who we are right now today, not thinking all that safety is going to come in the future once I get 10 points, once I'm drafted, once I have X amount. How can we find safety and security now before all that becomes objectively real? also because it might not. Right. So it might be maybe more effective long term to work on finding security and safety in ourselves and with the people around us than in the objective world around us. So That's that's my my take on it. Yeah.
Sandy Cohan: Yeah. Yep. I I like to chat with people about the concept of helping them maximize their potential. I I I don't know what the journey or the dream is for them. And to some degree I'm almost I almost don't care. I want what's the the best for them, but helping people lead a life where they are maximizing everything that they can possibly be or do for me, that that's very, very empowering. And I I I think a lot of younger people, in my opinion, when I say younger, I'm 51. So basically anybody younger than me, but is is really struggling with that concept of like what does success mean? Yeah, because perfection, you know, it's like I don't even know if that's a possibility, but celebrating progress and being confident in yourself, being able to reevaluate your performance or readjust almost, you know. kind of reprogram, I think that's a skill that I really get a great deal of joy in helping people recognize that. You know?
Ben: Yeah, I if I could put I mean there's a lot of factors that would go into that. I'd say the one thing I've learned a lot lately that I think coincides with with that comment is when it comes from the I know there's internal and external factors, you know, guiding all of us. But I think when it when all of everything we've talked about today comes at the end of the day, one after it's learned and maybe understood, that it's it's coming from the inside. Right.
Sandy Cohan: Yep.
Ben: The the reason to do something, the motivation to do something. And I I'll give you a prime example. And I actually really like asking people this question now because they they it's it one, it packs a punch, but it's also there's humor to it. Right. And so I'll say to an individual, I'll say, you know, let's hypothetically you come home from school one day or you finish work one day, and there's a difficult task you have to complete. But you feel for whatever reason in this moment, you're just like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna get it done. I either I want to get it done or it's gonna make someone else happy. So I'm just gonna do it. I'm exhausted, but I'll just right shoveling the driveway, cleaning the kitchen, finishing the homework,
Sandy Cohan: Yeah.
Ben: whatever, doing the laundry, whatever it might be. I'm just gonna do it. And you you're just about to start, and someone else comes up to you and says, Hey, make sure you shovel the driveway. Hey, make sure you get your homework done. Hey, make sure you And instantly, just like the grin on your face right now, they grin and they say, right? And they say, I'm not doing it anymore, or right. The eye exactly, right? The eye
Sandy Cohan: I know exactly where you're going with. Yep. Yeah, I was about to say that. Yep.
Ben: roll. And so I think there's so many factors right now or variables from the outside that are driving a lot of people to want to do things, which I think, in my perspective of things, leads to a lot of fear. It's I have to or else. And Bringing coming back to you said maximizing one's potential. Our program is, you know, business is heroic minds thinking embedded in the ideas around heroism. And I think one thing we I've learned, and maybe this is my articulation of the different philosophies around heroism, is that Yes, you want to beautify the world around you, right? You're you're driven to beautify the world around you. And in turn, that beautifies your life is a very super simple explanation of it. But to be able to do that, you have to be able to rise up and be that person that can then beautify the world around you. So the step is that
Sandy Cohan: That's right.
Ben: it's and it's and it's almost like I say this in the in the we'll focus on the sporting perspective. I say this with clients, like when you show up to play, it's for you first. Right. And that comes off as very selfish. It's for because in sport we often hear do it for the team, do it for the s coaches, do it for yes, beautiful. Sure. That's going to be step two. When you show up, you're doing it for you. You're not distracted anymore by the world around you or the opinions of others because you're there for you. And I ask this question when you're there out for recess, you're not there be for anyone else. You're just you haven't you couldn't even wait for that opportunity. Once that bell went, it was pure adventure and excitement. And that's for you. And so who are you when you're at recess and when you're doing something purely for yourself? Are you a little more patient? Are you a little more calm? Do you probably make better decisions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? And they're like, yes, yes, yes. And I say, who benefits from that? Their teammates, their coaches, everyone else around them. And there we are, Max.
Sandy Cohan: Yep. That's right. In order in order to be a better teammate, whatever, like you you have to be
Ben: Bingo.
Sandy Cohan: the best version of yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben: Bingo. And so trying to bring a lot of that into my work and then yeah, then you take that and put it, you know, plug that energy and passion you have into whatever you're doing. And yeah, there's another a major piece that comes up in the work that I do.
Sandy Cohan: Well, thank you honestly so much. I mean I could talk to you all day. If people want to learn more about you or the work that you're doing, where would you like for us to send them or where should they go to learn more about it?
Ben: Well they can yeah. I mean the internet's a magical tool. It's Ben Finelli, B-E-N-F-A-N-E-L-L-I, and Heroic Minds. Just type that in and you'll be connected to the work that we're doing. I would encourage people, Heroic Minds, you can jump on. It's free. They jump on create an account. We're encouraging not only people to interact with the education from professionals around the world, but we have a journal feature as well where people are encouraged to share things that life is teaching them that may benefit someone else. So encourage all of your listeners to at least give that a a sample and we're growing. So it'd be nice to have your your followers along with us.
Sandy Cohan: It's been awesome watching you create this. And I I did mean when I said at the beginning that even from afar though, I mean, I have such great respect for you. You've always been so kind with your time. This guy you didn't know a while ago, pinning you, asking you questions. You've you've really treated me with a great amount of respect. And I really, I really appreciate that. and for those folks who are listening, thanks so much for spending time with us on Always Coachable. If this episode gave you something, we ask that you share it with someone who's still growing and you can find us wherever. You get your podcasts and on YouTube at Sandy Cohen Official. Remember that the best never think they've arrived. So stay curious, stay humble, stay coachable. I'm Sandy Cohen, and we will see you next time.
