speaker-0: you
speaker-1: Hey everyone and welcome back to AlchemyNavs. We're here to unpack what it takes to build magnetic future group brands in a noisy world. I'm your host, Bradley Howland, and today we're excited to chat with somebody who deeply understands the odds and mechanics of marketing in a fast changing environment. So joining me is Roger Mason, founder of Chatterbox Media. They're a boutique agency based in Mauritius that punches way above its weight. when it comes to digital transformation, creative strategy and storytelling. Roger, welcome. It's great to have you with us.
speaker-0: Hey Bradley, thanks for having me.
speaker-1: in an age of AI automation and everything else that's going on at the moment, how do you stay grounded in clarity? And I think more specifically is what does creative clarity actually mean?
speaker-0: That's a, that's a wide spectrum. think creative clarity is simplifying it. Trying to, not trying to be a jack of all trades. The problem, think with, it's not a problem, it's a gift that we've got, but the technical space is such a massive, fast evolving spectrum that if you try to be a jack of all trades and try to jump on everything, you're just going to be overwhelmed. There's just too much going on. Instead of trying to do everything. Just focus on one or two things that kind of is within your lane that works for you. And that's where you'll find clarity and serenity and a functional system. But if you're trying to do everything cause your competitors are doing this, your neighbors are doing that, it's going to be chaotic.
speaker-1: And so for you from a chat box perspective, what does that actually mean in real life?
speaker-0: Okay. So I say in that sense, you've got to focus on your core business and understand what lane you're in. So, know, I think a lot of companies or people will get so obsessed with maybe what a competitor is doing or what the narrative is on social media or what they heard on some podcast or, know, what the new shiny thing is. So how I would explain to... a client that I'm working with that wants to, you know, and I work with a lot of SMEs, I'm an SME myself and there's a nice compatibility there. But what I try to explain to clients of mine, especially when they come in, are cool, we got this fantastic business idea. This is what we want to do. We want to start up and we want to do everything and dominate everything in one week. Where do we start? And that's not how that's, you're almost guaranteed to fail with that kind of thing. So it's essentially identifying what is your core business? What are you passionate about? And finding something that works and going in that direction. So finding a lane that you're comfortable with and understanding how the traffic flows. Don't worry about what's happening in the second, third, fourth or the far right hand lane. Just find your lane and go in that direction. And then when you're ready to overtake and step into the second lane, go that direction.
speaker-1: think one thing that you did mention is that you obviously an SME yourself and you deliberately focused on serving SMEs. What? Specifically, code that decision.
speaker-0: Okay. So as an SME myself, there is a compatibility there where understanding the psychology of who you're dealing with, the growing pains of an SME and what the expectations are and some of the struggles to scale a business and expand. And as an SME, when I started just by myself, that's essentially where I started and found the compatibility. But over the last 10 years of running this business, that's also where I've just been hitting home run after home run after home run. So it kind of gets to the point where for me, that's my lane. That's how I understand how the traffic works. And it would be stupid to try jump into the rock lane, pretend to be some major agency with a thousand people and then go work with corporates where you're now dealing with hierarchy of 300 decision makers. And it's a smaller team on my side where there's just, two totally different worlds, two different ecosystems, and there's going to be a conflict. So for the S for me being an SME and I'm probably the S and SME, know, I'm humble about it, but that's kind of what works. think it's a compatibility issue where, I mean, not an issue, it's a compatibility system where there's minimal friction and it's just almost effortless because you understand the psychology of who you're working with, who you're dealing with. what that person or what their company's objectives are. And it's a lot easier to manage. You know, this isn't for everybody. There might be bigger agencies that cannot work with SMEs because they are so used to systems in place from a bigger organization or enterprise. But for me, again, like I say, that's why I home runs. That's what works for me. It would be silly to, and don't get me wrong, there is, it's a sustainable business path with growth. So it's not like I'm just sitting and there's not like there's no maneuverability or no forward momentum. It's working. So it'd be kind of stupid to try shoot into the far right and then cause a traffic jam and just absolute chaos.
speaker-1: I think it's always an interesting one because our experience working with SMEs as well is that there's sort of two camps of SMEs. Those who get it and understand that you've got to walk this path, you're not going to get everything all at once. I think to the point that you made earlier as well is that there's often this expectation which is where the other camps that they want everything and the kitchen sink in that moment. How do you navigate that? How do you manage those who are wanting... as much as they can possibly get for the spent.
speaker-0: Fortunately, don't have too many of those. think you'll have the occasional client that comes along where they've got a dollar and they think they're spending a thousand. And you've to be realistic where it's like, that's just not, know, that's where you, case studies are a great example to go back and I would never obviously show them exact client work under NDL stuff, but you can use case studies of. Um, you know, in a situation, let's say you wanted to start selling and you, you've got your little business that sells lollipops, biscuits, whatever. And they want to be the next best thing and be selling, you know, 10,000 cupcakes next weekend. And they're only prepared to spend $10 on Facebook advertising. That's where you got to let them down gently and actually show them some case studies or previous data from stuff that you've done to say, here's the expectation of. When you spend that kind of money on social advertising, a dollar, this is how many people will see it. So you get a cost per impression and then a cost per acquisition and adventure comes back to that. So you have to show them real life examples of reality to kind of bring them into down, back down to the ground to be like, to be a little bit more realistic. I feel. case studies or just real life examples rather than trying to, cause then that's one thing you've got to avoid. think with any client, whether it's a major organization or SME is to avoid big jargon. Cause I mean, you and your industry, know a lot about podcasting and if you use some terminology, you would lose it on me. The same with web design, digital marketing and that. So you got to kind of put into layman's terms and a very rudimentary. If you got a dollar and you spend it, this is what you're going to get. Now let's be realistic. If you want that, you're going to need to spend that. If you've got that, this is what you can expect. Here's the difference.
speaker-1: When you draw the line between just doing execution versus transformation. like, how do you go beyond almost a tick box exercise into something that actually has tangible impact? And how does that work for you to do your approach with time?
speaker-0: I think going back to just being realistic. for what I do, I think again, this kind of goes into back into the ecosystem of being SME where it's a very, very personal space, where it's corporate, you're dealing with multiple people, SME is you're dealing with one or two people. So you don't want to front anything and you've got to be super realistic. So if there's any expectations of, and I hope I'm understanding the question correctly, where they wanting a lot more than, than what is achievable or it's just not real. really realistic, say loop it back to those examples to say, and you got to be honest as ⁓ a business representative or owner, whoever you're dealing with, whether it's a customer, client or a patient, you have to be straight up and realistic. And if their expectations are just out of the park, sometimes it's not even worth with all due respect, it's not worth working with a client like that because it could actually damage your reputation later down the line. And there are clients, companies out there that will jump at work knowing very well that what somebody is asking is far out of the realms of reality, but they will pretend that they can honor it.
speaker-1: You eating?
speaker-0: So that's before trying to even maneuver something like that. If it's not possible, I'll just avoid it at all costs or be real with the client to be like, what you want them to do is just not achievable at the level that they're at.
speaker-1: There's often this expectation where I think because of technology, as marketers, we often ask to do more with less. Like how have you seen that effect on your client's technology at the moment?
speaker-0: So again, I think it goes back to having real conversations with whoever you, it comes down to expectations. are sometimes where like let's say a client says they, their expectations are up here and this is where we're launching from. think you've got to be straight up from the word go, whether you're in marketing or any deployment situation where you're taking a customer's dream or product and supposed to be throwing it into the stratosphere. Be realistic. Like here's the objectives and. Here's what the path that we're going to take to try and get there while it's not guaranteed and you got to lay it out there. However, there are always opportunities that will present themselves where you can try a ride. again, I think it varies from industry to industry niche to niche and whatever platform or whatever trend is going on at the time. I mean, I've been involved in some campaigns for some companies. I'm not going to throw names out there where some of the biggest and strongest camp actually twice with the same company. Two of the biggest campaigns we've ever run didn't cost a single cent. But you can't really repeat that. It's not like you can just have a blueprint and like, this is how we're going to do it. So I think when you're in that situation and your clients has an expectation to do something or take something somewhere, you've got to be realistic. Like what is almost guaranteed in a monetary value and what will it, how much or what kind of workforce or money will it take to do that? However, you can look around to see what low hanging fruit there is and what opportunities there are to ride. It might be a social media trend, which just fits well into the business or some kind of something that's happening in the market where you can actually take advantage of and leverage that. But again, that is on a case to case. mean, what might work today will be completely dead in the water tomorrow, but there may be another opportunity tomorrow for a completely different thing. So I know it's a bit of a vague answer. And you know, as in marketing, it's like, how long is a piece of string? Yeah. Well, yeah. Where's the string?
speaker-1: Nowadays, the way people are using AI, we have things like Sora and VO3 that are really changing the way that people approach marketing, where you don't have to spend these massive budgets on production anymore. How are we making sure that your team internally is sort of kept abreast with a lot of those changes to ensure that what they're delivering is appropriate and the right things for clients when they need it?
speaker-0: Firstly, in terms of upskilling and doing that, the guys I work with, you can't be the smartest person in the room if you are in the wrong room. So for the team that I work with, there's nothing. In terms of client work, that's generally where you want to gift whoever you're working with clients, some kind of upskilling. Now this, don't think applies to just my clients or anybody's clients. I think applies to anybody in general. Upskilling is... It's paramount. You have to do it in today's day and age with technology and how fast and rapidly things move. You have to keep on top of it. Otherwise you will be left behind. Now I that sounds pretty scary because, you don't have to be an, you mentioned AI expert. That word alone, it's like, I don't know how anybody can claim to be an expert because if you're an expert today, tomorrow morning before you've woken up, you're not because there's new stuff all the time. ⁓ ⁓ so in terms of upskilling and, and that's whether it be a team member of mine or just a client to mine or anybody in general, I mean, I encourage people to, as soon as you're done listening to this podcast or listening to it, put your phone down. promise you, there's going to be a new shiny thing somewhere. Just go check social media. There'll be something that you don't, you're like, what, what is this now? So it's kind of. Because this guy, Roger, on the podcast said I must go learn everything. That's not what I said. I think you've got to be curious about a lot of stuff to upskill and stay relevant, but don't try to everything. And that's probably where a lot of people get overwhelmed and they lose themselves when it comes to upskilling. Because they think, right, AR, I need to be an expert. All right, cryptocurrencies, I need to own Bitcoin and NFTs. But before you know it, the whole day's gone by and you haven't done a single hour of work. because you're trying to upskill for something that you can't even use. So in terms of the shiny things that come along or any new technology, think look at it from the outside, observe it and be curious. And if it's something that strikes you where it's potentially something you could use in your personal life or your business, explore it, spend five minutes on Google, just trying to understand what it is. And if you see any benefits in it, then, you know, lean harder into it, but don't try. take on everything because you will just be overwhelmed and it'll be crazy. When I think that the way you've really got it, all right, this is something you have to be skilled in and learn about it. You can't ignore it. It's when something starts to get mass adoption, no matter what it is, whether it's a currency, it's a some form of medium, it's an Apple technology that Apple's or it's an AR or it's a new internet thing. When it starts getting mass adoption and everybody's talking about it, you see it on a daily basis. That's when you know, all right, this is something you're to have to know because you need to be skilled in it because it might be beneficial in your personal life or business life. But mass adoption generally means it's going to be a daily requirement from you as a human being at some point. So get skilled.
speaker-1: How do you and Chatterbox as an organization keep adapting to the right things to make sure that you stay in a hit them with things that do matter?
speaker-0: We don't, we just wing it. No, I'm kidding. So no, so we work on, I think the 80-20 rule is applicable and I'm pretty sure a lot of your audience or anybody listening to this has heard, kind of heard of the 80-20 rule. And 80 % should be your core, what makes you money, what's, you know, what's your core businesses, focus on that and keep 20 % headroom for. being able to maneuver and pivot or being able to explore some new opportunities. Same with like your calendar on a daily basis. If you think you're going to book eight, whatever your hours are, 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. and you're not going to leave any headroom to kind of maneuver, the universe is going to do the inevitable thing and just throw a curve ball at you halfway through the day. And you're going to wish you had had like an open hour to do some stuff. In terms of adapting, And maneuvering like that, that's kind of philosophy, my personal life, business, everything where you always got to leave a bit of headroom. Like this is the core business. This is what we do. And this is, you know, what the main goal is, but there's a little bit of headroom to, to move when we need to move. You know, sometimes it might just be one degree in that direction, that direction. Sometimes it's a hard left. ⁓ you know, and it's interesting you, brought up COVID. You know, I don't want to touch on that too much, but it was one of the greatest events that we've seen in our time in the last few decades. And when I say greatest, I don't mean it was a good time. It was terrible. However, that was one event that tested everybody. It doesn't matter what industry and what kind of business you had or how strong or weak you were. It really got to slap everybody backwards and just be like, well, you know, how can you maneuver? I mean, there were companies that had been running for 80 years and they weren't prepared to pivot. I don't think they made it to 81 years and there were companies that were primed to be absolutely contactless and not have any human dealings were still tested to their limits. So I think with an event like that so close, it should be at front of mind for everybody that at any given time, you've got to be able to and ready to just maneuver. So in terms of adaptability, that's kind of, we almost walk in the 80-20 rule, 80 % of. That's what we do and 20 % ready to pivot.
speaker-1: How has AI changed the way that you ideate or create or deliver? mean, practically, like how is that integrated into your approach to do it?
speaker-0: marketing. it's such an interesting time at Wynn because it's new. is still very young, but at the same time, there's been a lot of maturity to it. So I use AR almost on the daily and I think a lot of people do and I will probably touch on some points shortly. But for me, it's... A lot of the image generation, video generation, ⁓ suck at writing. So when the first part of AR that came became mainstreamly available, which was fantastic. mean, the language models helped with rewriting stuff. It was like an absolute blessing. So that is definitely in the tool sets, image and video generation. Then that's essentially what I use in my tool set because there's web development and a lot of that is graphic and video intensive. Competitor analysis stuff that I do. However. That is something I actually do, but not for myself. I don't watch what other agencies are doing. It's more for, for, ⁓ client work and what they're doing. So for me to, if someone, again, they want to start this whole, ⁓ cupcake business and get online and you know, what is the viability of doing this? I can then do competitor analysis to find out, right, fantastic. What kind of ecosystem will we building out? Where is the competition? How do you get an advantage on Google SEO? So on and so on. And then, I mean, it's competitor analysis that you can go into automation and that, but I'll be honest, there's a lot of that I haven't even touched on. Because I think the image and videos where I'm leaning hard into, because you take natural human creativity with superpowers and you are creating wild stuff. As for all the other tools for me, it's still very sandbox mode. So it would be difficult. It would be stupid to actually get. married to one specific segment of AR when it's still so new. So for right now, I've just like a child in the sand trying everything.
speaker-1: Where do you draw that line between sort of relying on these sort of machines and AI technology versus knowing the difference between where human intervention still matters and what that means for clients at the end of the day? for you, I mean, how do you separate the two and draw that line between when to use it and when the human brain matters more?
speaker-0: okay. So I don't really think it's kind of weird because I don't really think there's much of a line at the moment. It's kind of compounded and layered. And the thing is, it's going, where's it going to be tomorrow or next week or the week after it's impossible to tell. But I actually want to touch on something you said where, because there is a, there's, there's two types of people. There's the people that have used AR once or twice kind of or starting to use it on a daily, just some, know, help me write this. And then there's people leaning hard into it. And then there's the camp of people that are pessimistic about the entire thing. They feel AI has no place in our society. There's that's where the resistance is because there is a bit of a confusing narrative. Because again, they don't really understand where does the human part come in and where does the AI part come in. And I'm going to go on a ⁓ rampager. So AR ⁓ is a tool for you to use in your industry. And I'll touch on something where it's even if it has, if it's not in your industry now, it will be tomorrow. So don't stress. It's coming. But the confusing narrative about some people that don't really understand it and don't know where to draw the line. I don't even think you need to try to draw line might be the problem because remove the line. There's a lot of people out there and this is, think it's for the pessimists that think AR is coming to take our jobs and replace you. good news is AR is not going to take your job and replace you. What will take your job and replace you though, is somebody else that is using AR. Yeah. So that's, yeah. So, I mean, let that sink in. So for the people that are totally against AR, you should probably just, you know, take the first step and, and Try Google Gemini, try chat GPT, try something. Once you figure out what its capabilities are in the most rudimentary form, you'll want to then go down the rabbit hole and ask why you haven't tried this sooner. You know, they say history doesn't repeat itself, but it very often rhymes. And if you look at how AI is going to integrate into society, we saw this with the industrial revolution, robotics, the age of internet and personal computers in the workspace and in homes. I mean, you don't have to look that far back where people were like, you know, it's not like the internet was going to take people's jobs. It's not Windows 95 and Internet Explorer that took your job. know, it's, but it was, so businesses were kind of, when they were going through a recruitment process, they were looking for people that were somewhat computer literate. So you just knew how to kind of send and receive emails and do a basic spreadsheet. You did not have to be a computer programmer, just computer literate. And I think that's kind of where AR is going to be in a day or two. Yeah. you just need to kind of understand the basics and you'll have a fighting chance. So where do you draw the line between AR and humans? Don't really think there's much of a line. just becomes a tool that humans are going to use. They will always need to be at human intervention using AR as a tool. if you in the camp that you worried about it taking your cause like maybe there might be an AR tool out there that literally has your job description. I've had it, you know, there was the writing tools that came first, which were fantastic. Then there was the image and video stuff where, ⁓ at that point I was like, this is a little close to home. This is a servicer offer. ⁓ and then, know, the very next day you see an AR tool that's well, $20 builds your website in five minutes. I'm like, all right, pack it up boys. We're done. But that's, it's not the case. So that specific AR tool is quite, is exactly that. It's a tool for me and my industry or for that person in the industry. So I think when, when the AR tool comes along that literally has your job description. Don't stress about it. It's not there to take your job. It's there to work with you. You're the human that's going to kind of use that AR tool. It's the same as, ⁓ and the way the penny dropped is I was talking with a client. ⁓ this, I'm just going to call them an accounting firm for now where I know that they're very aware that there's AR tools out there that can build websites for them. So why would they be speaking to me? Because what I can do with AR and in the web space ⁓ is a lot more than what, with all due respect, a bunch of accountants can do with AR tools to build websites. But the thing is, they're not looking and focusing on the AR tools that are in for my industry because at the exact same time, there's AR tools for the accounting industry that they are more focused on. that helps them optimize their workflow, gets speedier results and lets them deliver better results for their clients. And those are the AR tools they are worried about. Just because ⁓ there's a web design AR tool, doesn't mean they focused on it.
speaker-1: We do see small agencies place in leading sort of this change and what does that opportunity look like for smaller agencies who are sort of integrating AI into their workflows, into the way they do things. But what does it look like from an opportunity point of view for smaller businesses?
speaker-0: I think smaller businesses stand a good fighting chance because there's always lots of small businesses. If you're talking specifically small, I'm going to refer to smaller agencies, but smaller businesses working with smaller businesses. Is that what you're essentially saying? It's a very manageable and again, that's why I love the SME space. That's where we are at. It's a lot more dynamic fluid and you can pivot real fast. It's not like you're carting around 36 carts behind you. doing a U-turn takes a lot longer. So for the smaller businesses that are nimble, fast on their feet, they're a lot more agile and you know, they can, it's an interesting time because as a smaller businesses and as technology progresses, as the world gets a lot closer to each other, and I'm not even just talking about flights, just with the way technology is, yeah, we are chatting to totally different continents, all same content at different countries. The world is rapidly moving and fast and there are a lot of smaller businesses popping up. So smaller businesses actually have a farting chance. And the more smaller businesses that pop up, the pool just gets bigger and bigger for smaller businesses to work with each other. How AR bakes into all of that is a bit of a mystery, but if you're using AR as a tool to help you get there faster, you're on the right track. I mean, that's my take on that. I think that the businesses that aren't using AR, whether it be competitor analysis, some kind of optimization, automation. or just finding the right clients, customers, or doing market research. And AR is fantastic with this kind of stuff and free for the most part. You get some really high end tools where you got to drop a couple of dollars on it. But what you can do for free is amazing. the smaller businesses are in a really awesome space where they can take on some of these tools and rapidly deploy ideas or strategies on the backend of what us, there's a big problem with all, all due respect to some of the bigger companies, there are some companies where they're not using, and I don't want to just make this about ragging on big companies and AR, but there's some companies that are using AR correctly. And then some that are using it very incorrectly where if you're a big company and using AR in your workforce to optimize work that you're doing or streamline something fantastic. But when you're a big corporate company and you're trying to sell your product with a washing powder. Bad example, but they will somehow try and incorporate AR into that and sell it off to customers. It's like, okay, hold up. There's, where's the correlation? This doesn't make any sense. ⁓ And I think that's where a lot of big companies are going wrong, where they're not using AR correctly. trying to use it as a selling product. But anyway, sorry, I digress. Back to the smaller companies. They are in a really good position because again, being smaller and lighter, less people. You can move fast and with AR as ⁓ pretty much a 24-7 business associate, business developer, business assistant with the entire internet at your fingertips is a great tool to have and a really interesting space to be in right now.
speaker-1: If there was one mindset shift that you think every marketer or business owner needs to make in this sort of new world that we're in, what do you believe that should be?
speaker-0: So I think going back to like the 80-20, just keep some capacity to be able to move ⁓ and maneuver when be, because like we've seen it time and time again. don't, like I say, you don't have to look that far back to see when your business is tested. Be ready to adapt. Technology is obviously moving very fast. So try, dedicate some of your resources to that. If you've got a little corner shop that sells milk tarts and that's all you do. See what you can do to get online and do some kind of delivery thing. Don't just rely on your brick and mortar business because if the last five years was anything to go by, you can be in your very vulnerable position if you just rely on that. So be ready to move when you need to move. And I think authenticity in businesses is also authenticity and great customer service. If you had to ask me what do I attribute a lot of my success to? It's good, old fashioned, good customer service where you treat every client like it's your only client. And I think that comes back from a hospitality experience from where I was situated. Even though I'm completely in a different world from where I started, I did take the hospitality hotel experience into what I'm doing now. And you treat your clients or or customers as if they're your only a number one guest, sorry, customer. It'll be amazing what you can do. So just focus on that. What's the shiny stuff? If it comes along, you know, learn some stuff, but sometimes you just got to go back to the basics. So if you want to adjust mindset as to what you can do to stand a chance in this ever evolving world, sometimes go back to the basics with good customer service and just be ready to maneuver. We've remote art on selling. Pumpkin latte is also good. know?
speaker-1: No, thank you, Roger. I think this was a really good and inspiring and I think, a freshly human conversation. So I appreciate that. I think for all our listeners, out Chatabox Media. They're doing exceptional work in the world of marketing that makes it feel intuitive and meaningful. And remember, creativity doesn't go away. It just gets augmented. So thanks for tuning in. This is Alchemy Labs. Catch you next time.
speaker-0: you
speaker-1: Hey everyone and welcome back to AlchemyNavs. We're here to unpack what it takes to build magnetic future group brands in a noisy world. I'm your host, Bradley Howland, and today we're excited to chat with somebody who deeply understands the odds and mechanics of marketing in a fast changing environment. So joining me is Roger Mason, founder of Chatterbox Media. They're a boutique agency based in Mauritius that punches way above its weight. when it comes to digital transformation, creative strategy and storytelling. Roger, welcome. It's great to have you with us.
speaker-0: Hey Bradley, thanks for having me.
speaker-1: in an age of AI automation and everything else that's going on at the moment, how do you stay grounded in clarity? And I think more specifically is what does creative clarity actually mean?
speaker-0: That's a, that's a wide spectrum. think creative clarity is simplifying it. Trying to, not trying to be a jack of all trades. The problem, think with, it's not a problem, it's a gift that we've got, but the technical space is such a massive, fast evolving spectrum that if you try to be a jack of all trades and try to jump on everything, you're just going to be overwhelmed. There's just too much going on. Instead of trying to do everything. Just focus on one or two things that kind of is within your lane that works for you. And that's where you'll find clarity and serenity and a functional system. But if you're trying to do everything cause your competitors are doing this, your neighbors are doing that, it's going to be chaotic.
speaker-1: And so for you from a chat box perspective, what does that actually mean in real life?
speaker-0: Okay. So I say in that sense, you've got to focus on your core business and understand what lane you're in. So, know, I think a lot of companies or people will get so obsessed with maybe what a competitor is doing or what the narrative is on social media or what they heard on some podcast or, know, what the new shiny thing is. So how I would explain to... a client that I'm working with that wants to, you know, and I work with a lot of SMEs, I'm an SME myself and there's a nice compatibility there. But what I try to explain to clients of mine, especially when they come in, are cool, we got this fantastic business idea. This is what we want to do. We want to start up and we want to do everything and dominate everything in one week. Where do we start? And that's not how that's, you're almost guaranteed to fail with that kind of thing. So it's essentially identifying what is your core business? What are you passionate about? And finding something that works and going in that direction. So finding a lane that you're comfortable with and understanding how the traffic flows. Don't worry about what's happening in the second, third, fourth or the far right hand lane. Just find your lane and go in that direction. And then when you're ready to overtake and step into the second lane, go that direction.
speaker-1: think one thing that you did mention is that you obviously an SME yourself and you deliberately focused on serving SMEs. What? Specifically, code that decision.
speaker-0: Okay. So as an SME myself, there is a compatibility there where understanding the psychology of who you're dealing with, the growing pains of an SME and what the expectations are and some of the struggles to scale a business and expand. And as an SME, when I started just by myself, that's essentially where I started and found the compatibility. But over the last 10 years of running this business, that's also where I've just been hitting home run after home run after home run. So it kind of gets to the point where for me, that's my lane. That's how I understand how the traffic works. And it would be stupid to try jump into the rock lane, pretend to be some major agency with a thousand people and then go work with corporates where you're now dealing with hierarchy of 300 decision makers. And it's a smaller team on my side where there's just, two totally different worlds, two different ecosystems, and there's going to be a conflict. So for the S for me being an SME and I'm probably the S and SME, know, I'm humble about it, but that's kind of what works. think it's a compatibility issue where, I mean, not an issue, it's a compatibility system where there's minimal friction and it's just almost effortless because you understand the psychology of who you're working with, who you're dealing with. what that person or what their company's objectives are. And it's a lot easier to manage. You know, this isn't for everybody. There might be bigger agencies that cannot work with SMEs because they are so used to systems in place from a bigger organization or enterprise. But for me, again, like I say, that's why I home runs. That's what works for me. It would be silly to, and don't get me wrong, there is, it's a sustainable business path with growth. So it's not like I'm just sitting and there's not like there's no maneuverability or no forward momentum. It's working. So it'd be kind of stupid to try shoot into the far right and then cause a traffic jam and just absolute chaos.
speaker-1: I think it's always an interesting one because our experience working with SMEs as well is that there's sort of two camps of SMEs. Those who get it and understand that you've got to walk this path, you're not going to get everything all at once. I think to the point that you made earlier as well is that there's often this expectation which is where the other camps that they want everything and the kitchen sink in that moment. How do you navigate that? How do you manage those who are wanting... as much as they can possibly get for the spent.
speaker-0: Fortunately, don't have too many of those. think you'll have the occasional client that comes along where they've got a dollar and they think they're spending a thousand. And you've to be realistic where it's like, that's just not, know, that's where you, case studies are a great example to go back and I would never obviously show them exact client work under NDL stuff, but you can use case studies of. Um, you know, in a situation, let's say you wanted to start selling and you, you've got your little business that sells lollipops, biscuits, whatever. And they want to be the next best thing and be selling, you know, 10,000 cupcakes next weekend. And they're only prepared to spend $10 on Facebook advertising. That's where you got to let them down gently and actually show them some case studies or previous data from stuff that you've done to say, here's the expectation of. When you spend that kind of money on social advertising, a dollar, this is how many people will see it. So you get a cost per impression and then a cost per acquisition and adventure comes back to that. So you have to show them real life examples of reality to kind of bring them into down, back down to the ground to be like, to be a little bit more realistic. I feel. case studies or just real life examples rather than trying to, cause then that's one thing you've got to avoid. think with any client, whether it's a major organization or SME is to avoid big jargon. Cause I mean, you and your industry, know a lot about podcasting and if you use some terminology, you would lose it on me. The same with web design, digital marketing and that. So you got to kind of put into layman's terms and a very rudimentary. If you got a dollar and you spend it, this is what you're going to get. Now let's be realistic. If you want that, you're going to need to spend that. If you've got that, this is what you can expect. Here's the difference.
speaker-1: When you draw the line between just doing execution versus transformation. like, how do you go beyond almost a tick box exercise into something that actually has tangible impact? And how does that work for you to do your approach with time?
speaker-0: I think going back to just being realistic. for what I do, I think again, this kind of goes into back into the ecosystem of being SME where it's a very, very personal space, where it's corporate, you're dealing with multiple people, SME is you're dealing with one or two people. So you don't want to front anything and you've got to be super realistic. So if there's any expectations of, and I hope I'm understanding the question correctly, where they wanting a lot more than, than what is achievable or it's just not real. really realistic, say loop it back to those examples to say, and you got to be honest as ⁓ a business representative or owner, whoever you're dealing with, whether it's a customer, client or a patient, you have to be straight up and realistic. And if their expectations are just out of the park, sometimes it's not even worth with all due respect, it's not worth working with a client like that because it could actually damage your reputation later down the line. And there are clients, companies out there that will jump at work knowing very well that what somebody is asking is far out of the realms of reality, but they will pretend that they can honor it.
speaker-1: You eating?
speaker-0: So that's before trying to even maneuver something like that. If it's not possible, I'll just avoid it at all costs or be real with the client to be like, what you want them to do is just not achievable at the level that they're at.
speaker-1: There's often this expectation where I think because of technology, as marketers, we often ask to do more with less. Like how have you seen that effect on your client's technology at the moment?
speaker-0: So again, I think it goes back to having real conversations with whoever you, it comes down to expectations. are sometimes where like let's say a client says they, their expectations are up here and this is where we're launching from. think you've got to be straight up from the word go, whether you're in marketing or any deployment situation where you're taking a customer's dream or product and supposed to be throwing it into the stratosphere. Be realistic. Like here's the objectives and. Here's what the path that we're going to take to try and get there while it's not guaranteed and you got to lay it out there. However, there are always opportunities that will present themselves where you can try a ride. again, I think it varies from industry to industry niche to niche and whatever platform or whatever trend is going on at the time. I mean, I've been involved in some campaigns for some companies. I'm not going to throw names out there where some of the biggest and strongest camp actually twice with the same company. Two of the biggest campaigns we've ever run didn't cost a single cent. But you can't really repeat that. It's not like you can just have a blueprint and like, this is how we're going to do it. So I think when you're in that situation and your clients has an expectation to do something or take something somewhere, you've got to be realistic. Like what is almost guaranteed in a monetary value and what will it, how much or what kind of workforce or money will it take to do that? However, you can look around to see what low hanging fruit there is and what opportunities there are to ride. It might be a social media trend, which just fits well into the business or some kind of something that's happening in the market where you can actually take advantage of and leverage that. But again, that is on a case to case. mean, what might work today will be completely dead in the water tomorrow, but there may be another opportunity tomorrow for a completely different thing. So I know it's a bit of a vague answer. And you know, as in marketing, it's like, how long is a piece of string? Yeah. Well, yeah. Where's the string?
speaker-1: Nowadays, the way people are using AI, we have things like Sora and VO3 that are really changing the way that people approach marketing, where you don't have to spend these massive budgets on production anymore. How are we making sure that your team internally is sort of kept abreast with a lot of those changes to ensure that what they're delivering is appropriate and the right things for clients when they need it?
speaker-0: Firstly, in terms of upskilling and doing that, the guys I work with, you can't be the smartest person in the room if you are in the wrong room. So for the team that I work with, there's nothing. In terms of client work, that's generally where you want to gift whoever you're working with clients, some kind of upskilling. Now this, don't think applies to just my clients or anybody's clients. I think applies to anybody in general. Upskilling is... It's paramount. You have to do it in today's day and age with technology and how fast and rapidly things move. You have to keep on top of it. Otherwise you will be left behind. Now I that sounds pretty scary because, you don't have to be an, you mentioned AI expert. That word alone, it's like, I don't know how anybody can claim to be an expert because if you're an expert today, tomorrow morning before you've woken up, you're not because there's new stuff all the time. ⁓ ⁓ so in terms of upskilling and, and that's whether it be a team member of mine or just a client to mine or anybody in general, I mean, I encourage people to, as soon as you're done listening to this podcast or listening to it, put your phone down. promise you, there's going to be a new shiny thing somewhere. Just go check social media. There'll be something that you don't, you're like, what, what is this now? So it's kind of. Because this guy, Roger, on the podcast said I must go learn everything. That's not what I said. I think you've got to be curious about a lot of stuff to upskill and stay relevant, but don't try to everything. And that's probably where a lot of people get overwhelmed and they lose themselves when it comes to upskilling. Because they think, right, AR, I need to be an expert. All right, cryptocurrencies, I need to own Bitcoin and NFTs. But before you know it, the whole day's gone by and you haven't done a single hour of work. because you're trying to upskill for something that you can't even use. So in terms of the shiny things that come along or any new technology, think look at it from the outside, observe it and be curious. And if it's something that strikes you where it's potentially something you could use in your personal life or your business, explore it, spend five minutes on Google, just trying to understand what it is. And if you see any benefits in it, then, you know, lean harder into it, but don't try. take on everything because you will just be overwhelmed and it'll be crazy. When I think that the way you've really got it, all right, this is something you have to be skilled in and learn about it. You can't ignore it. It's when something starts to get mass adoption, no matter what it is, whether it's a currency, it's a some form of medium, it's an Apple technology that Apple's or it's an AR or it's a new internet thing. When it starts getting mass adoption and everybody's talking about it, you see it on a daily basis. That's when you know, all right, this is something you're to have to know because you need to be skilled in it because it might be beneficial in your personal life or business life. But mass adoption generally means it's going to be a daily requirement from you as a human being at some point. So get skilled.
speaker-1: How do you and Chatterbox as an organization keep adapting to the right things to make sure that you stay in a hit them with things that do matter?
speaker-0: We don't, we just wing it. No, I'm kidding. So no, so we work on, I think the 80-20 rule is applicable and I'm pretty sure a lot of your audience or anybody listening to this has heard, kind of heard of the 80-20 rule. And 80 % should be your core, what makes you money, what's, you know, what's your core businesses, focus on that and keep 20 % headroom for. being able to maneuver and pivot or being able to explore some new opportunities. Same with like your calendar on a daily basis. If you think you're going to book eight, whatever your hours are, 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. and you're not going to leave any headroom to kind of maneuver, the universe is going to do the inevitable thing and just throw a curve ball at you halfway through the day. And you're going to wish you had had like an open hour to do some stuff. In terms of adapting, And maneuvering like that, that's kind of philosophy, my personal life, business, everything where you always got to leave a bit of headroom. Like this is the core business. This is what we do. And this is, you know, what the main goal is, but there's a little bit of headroom to, to move when we need to move. You know, sometimes it might just be one degree in that direction, that direction. Sometimes it's a hard left. ⁓ you know, and it's interesting you, brought up COVID. You know, I don't want to touch on that too much, but it was one of the greatest events that we've seen in our time in the last few decades. And when I say greatest, I don't mean it was a good time. It was terrible. However, that was one event that tested everybody. It doesn't matter what industry and what kind of business you had or how strong or weak you were. It really got to slap everybody backwards and just be like, well, you know, how can you maneuver? I mean, there were companies that had been running for 80 years and they weren't prepared to pivot. I don't think they made it to 81 years and there were companies that were primed to be absolutely contactless and not have any human dealings were still tested to their limits. So I think with an event like that so close, it should be at front of mind for everybody that at any given time, you've got to be able to and ready to just maneuver. So in terms of adaptability, that's kind of, we almost walk in the 80-20 rule, 80 % of. That's what we do and 20 % ready to pivot.
speaker-1: How has AI changed the way that you ideate or create or deliver? mean, practically, like how is that integrated into your approach to do it?
speaker-0: marketing. it's such an interesting time at Wynn because it's new. is still very young, but at the same time, there's been a lot of maturity to it. So I use AR almost on the daily and I think a lot of people do and I will probably touch on some points shortly. But for me, it's... A lot of the image generation, video generation, ⁓ suck at writing. So when the first part of AR that came became mainstreamly available, which was fantastic. mean, the language models helped with rewriting stuff. It was like an absolute blessing. So that is definitely in the tool sets, image and video generation. Then that's essentially what I use in my tool set because there's web development and a lot of that is graphic and video intensive. Competitor analysis stuff that I do. However. That is something I actually do, but not for myself. I don't watch what other agencies are doing. It's more for, for, ⁓ client work and what they're doing. So for me to, if someone, again, they want to start this whole, ⁓ cupcake business and get online and you know, what is the viability of doing this? I can then do competitor analysis to find out, right, fantastic. What kind of ecosystem will we building out? Where is the competition? How do you get an advantage on Google SEO? So on and so on. And then, I mean, it's competitor analysis that you can go into automation and that, but I'll be honest, there's a lot of that I haven't even touched on. Because I think the image and videos where I'm leaning hard into, because you take natural human creativity with superpowers and you are creating wild stuff. As for all the other tools for me, it's still very sandbox mode. So it would be difficult. It would be stupid to actually get. married to one specific segment of AR when it's still so new. So for right now, I've just like a child in the sand trying everything.
speaker-1: Where do you draw that line between sort of relying on these sort of machines and AI technology versus knowing the difference between where human intervention still matters and what that means for clients at the end of the day? for you, I mean, how do you separate the two and draw that line between when to use it and when the human brain matters more?
speaker-0: okay. So I don't really think it's kind of weird because I don't really think there's much of a line at the moment. It's kind of compounded and layered. And the thing is, it's going, where's it going to be tomorrow or next week or the week after it's impossible to tell. But I actually want to touch on something you said where, because there is a, there's, there's two types of people. There's the people that have used AR once or twice kind of or starting to use it on a daily, just some, know, help me write this. And then there's people leaning hard into it. And then there's the camp of people that are pessimistic about the entire thing. They feel AI has no place in our society. There's that's where the resistance is because there is a bit of a confusing narrative. Because again, they don't really understand where does the human part come in and where does the AI part come in. And I'm going to go on a ⁓ rampager. So AR ⁓ is a tool for you to use in your industry. And I'll touch on something where it's even if it has, if it's not in your industry now, it will be tomorrow. So don't stress. It's coming. But the confusing narrative about some people that don't really understand it and don't know where to draw the line. I don't even think you need to try to draw line might be the problem because remove the line. There's a lot of people out there and this is, think it's for the pessimists that think AR is coming to take our jobs and replace you. good news is AR is not going to take your job and replace you. What will take your job and replace you though, is somebody else that is using AR. Yeah. So that's, yeah. So, I mean, let that sink in. So for the people that are totally against AR, you should probably just, you know, take the first step and, and Try Google Gemini, try chat GPT, try something. Once you figure out what its capabilities are in the most rudimentary form, you'll want to then go down the rabbit hole and ask why you haven't tried this sooner. You know, they say history doesn't repeat itself, but it very often rhymes. And if you look at how AI is going to integrate into society, we saw this with the industrial revolution, robotics, the age of internet and personal computers in the workspace and in homes. I mean, you don't have to look that far back where people were like, you know, it's not like the internet was going to take people's jobs. It's not Windows 95 and Internet Explorer that took your job. know, it's, but it was, so businesses were kind of, when they were going through a recruitment process, they were looking for people that were somewhat computer literate. So you just knew how to kind of send and receive emails and do a basic spreadsheet. You did not have to be a computer programmer, just computer literate. And I think that's kind of where AR is going to be in a day or two. Yeah. you just need to kind of understand the basics and you'll have a fighting chance. So where do you draw the line between AR and humans? Don't really think there's much of a line. just becomes a tool that humans are going to use. They will always need to be at human intervention using AR as a tool. if you in the camp that you worried about it taking your cause like maybe there might be an AR tool out there that literally has your job description. I've had it, you know, there was the writing tools that came first, which were fantastic. Then there was the image and video stuff where, ⁓ at that point I was like, this is a little close to home. This is a servicer offer. ⁓ and then, know, the very next day you see an AR tool that's well, $20 builds your website in five minutes. I'm like, all right, pack it up boys. We're done. But that's, it's not the case. So that specific AR tool is quite, is exactly that. It's a tool for me and my industry or for that person in the industry. So I think when, when the AR tool comes along that literally has your job description. Don't stress about it. It's not there to take your job. It's there to work with you. You're the human that's going to kind of use that AR tool. It's the same as, ⁓ and the way the penny dropped is I was talking with a client. ⁓ this, I'm just going to call them an accounting firm for now where I know that they're very aware that there's AR tools out there that can build websites for them. So why would they be speaking to me? Because what I can do with AR and in the web space ⁓ is a lot more than what, with all due respect, a bunch of accountants can do with AR tools to build websites. But the thing is, they're not looking and focusing on the AR tools that are in for my industry because at the exact same time, there's AR tools for the accounting industry that they are more focused on. that helps them optimize their workflow, gets speedier results and lets them deliver better results for their clients. And those are the AR tools they are worried about. Just because ⁓ there's a web design AR tool, doesn't mean they focused on it.
speaker-1: We do see small agencies place in leading sort of this change and what does that opportunity look like for smaller agencies who are sort of integrating AI into their workflows, into the way they do things. But what does it look like from an opportunity point of view for smaller businesses?
speaker-0: I think smaller businesses stand a good fighting chance because there's always lots of small businesses. If you're talking specifically small, I'm going to refer to smaller agencies, but smaller businesses working with smaller businesses. Is that what you're essentially saying? It's a very manageable and again, that's why I love the SME space. That's where we are at. It's a lot more dynamic fluid and you can pivot real fast. It's not like you're carting around 36 carts behind you. doing a U-turn takes a lot longer. So for the smaller businesses that are nimble, fast on their feet, they're a lot more agile and you know, they can, it's an interesting time because as a smaller businesses and as technology progresses, as the world gets a lot closer to each other, and I'm not even just talking about flights, just with the way technology is, yeah, we are chatting to totally different continents, all same content at different countries. The world is rapidly moving and fast and there are a lot of smaller businesses popping up. So smaller businesses actually have a farting chance. And the more smaller businesses that pop up, the pool just gets bigger and bigger for smaller businesses to work with each other. How AR bakes into all of that is a bit of a mystery, but if you're using AR as a tool to help you get there faster, you're on the right track. I mean, that's my take on that. I think that the businesses that aren't using AR, whether it be competitor analysis, some kind of optimization, automation. or just finding the right clients, customers, or doing market research. And AR is fantastic with this kind of stuff and free for the most part. You get some really high end tools where you got to drop a couple of dollars on it. But what you can do for free is amazing. the smaller businesses are in a really awesome space where they can take on some of these tools and rapidly deploy ideas or strategies on the backend of what us, there's a big problem with all, all due respect to some of the bigger companies, there are some companies where they're not using, and I don't want to just make this about ragging on big companies and AR, but there's some companies that are using AR correctly. And then some that are using it very incorrectly where if you're a big company and using AR in your workforce to optimize work that you're doing or streamline something fantastic. But when you're a big corporate company and you're trying to sell your product with a washing powder. Bad example, but they will somehow try and incorporate AR into that and sell it off to customers. It's like, okay, hold up. There's, where's the correlation? This doesn't make any sense. ⁓ And I think that's where a lot of big companies are going wrong, where they're not using AR correctly. trying to use it as a selling product. But anyway, sorry, I digress. Back to the smaller companies. They are in a really good position because again, being smaller and lighter, less people. You can move fast and with AR as ⁓ pretty much a 24-7 business associate, business developer, business assistant with the entire internet at your fingertips is a great tool to have and a really interesting space to be in right now.
speaker-1: If there was one mindset shift that you think every marketer or business owner needs to make in this sort of new world that we're in, what do you believe that should be?
speaker-0: So I think going back to like the 80-20, just keep some capacity to be able to move ⁓ and maneuver when be, because like we've seen it time and time again. don't, like I say, you don't have to look that far back to see when your business is tested. Be ready to adapt. Technology is obviously moving very fast. So try, dedicate some of your resources to that. If you've got a little corner shop that sells milk tarts and that's all you do. See what you can do to get online and do some kind of delivery thing. Don't just rely on your brick and mortar business because if the last five years was anything to go by, you can be in your very vulnerable position if you just rely on that. So be ready to move when you need to move. And I think authenticity in businesses is also authenticity and great customer service. If you had to ask me what do I attribute a lot of my success to? It's good, old fashioned, good customer service where you treat every client like it's your only client. And I think that comes back from a hospitality experience from where I was situated. Even though I'm completely in a different world from where I started, I did take the hospitality hotel experience into what I'm doing now. And you treat your clients or or customers as if they're your only a number one guest, sorry, customer. It'll be amazing what you can do. So just focus on that. What's the shiny stuff? If it comes along, you know, learn some stuff, but sometimes you just got to go back to the basics. So if you want to adjust mindset as to what you can do to stand a chance in this ever evolving world, sometimes go back to the basics with good customer service and just be ready to maneuver. We've remote art on selling. Pumpkin latte is also good. know?
speaker-1: No, thank you, Roger. I think this was a really good and inspiring and I think, a freshly human conversation. So I appreciate that. I think for all our listeners, out Chatabox Media. They're doing exceptional work in the world of marketing that makes it feel intuitive and meaningful. And remember, creativity doesn't go away. It just gets augmented. So thanks for tuning in. This is Alchemy Labs. Catch you next time.
speaker-0: you
