WEBVTT
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00:00:04.240People with education are they don't have the move fast and break things mentality.
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00:00:04.559No.
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00:00:05.280Which I think is good.
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00:00:06.320We're working with children.
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00:00:06.719Yeah.
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00:00:07.919We don't want to break children.
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00:00:08.240All right.
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00:00:13.599If I had to choose between the space moving too fast or too slow, I would choose too slow.
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00:00:16.399We don't really want to experiment on kids entirely.
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00:00:23.760Welcome to another virtual edition of AI ED Studios.
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00:00:28.320I'm in the virtual studio, well, in my bedroom, but we are live virtually with Jen Husbands.
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00:00:50.799Jen, I'm going to give you a chance to actually share your a little bit about your story because you've done so much and you're very much very in demand right now amongst folks in this space to just like who just want access to your smarts and also just like all the different experiences that you have sort of like brought you to where you are today is like, you know, I'd say one of these sort of preeminent, you know, advisors to philanthropy and to education leaders.
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00:00:52.799But this is very much like an interactive conversation.
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00:01:08.079We're going to be, you know, I think kind of brainstorming together because I think you and I both bring a very complementary but different both perspectives and expertise that we need to find a way to sort of marry if we're going to solve this whole big question about AI and future of education.
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00:01:11.519Um but before we even dive into all that, I actually just want to show you some stuff.
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00:01:14.079So we make we may cut this portion.
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00:01:20.159Um but have you so so have have you played around with vibe coding much?
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00:01:21.120Have you heard of vibe coding?
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00:01:26.079I've heard of it very vaguely, but I have not engaged with it.
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00:01:36.239And I'm curious, like, is it coming up in conversations that you're having with folks like when you're in rooms talking about the future of AI and education, or are people talking about vibe coding?
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00:01:40.640Is it you know I think Yusuf brought it up with me at the EFSG meeting.
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00:01:44.319I think I think it was not in the larger conversation with everybody.
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00:01:45.599I think it was just the two of us.
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00:01:46.959And I think he mentioned it.
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00:01:48.319It was him or it was you.
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00:01:51.120Somebody said they're gonna be talking about it at South by Southwest.
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00:01:51.599Is it you?
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00:01:52.319Oh, that's me.
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00:01:53.200Okay, okay.
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00:01:57.840But he mentioned it too in that conference room, in that like weird auditorium room.
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00:01:58.640He mentioned it.
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00:02:00.159That was the first time I'd ever heard of it.
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00:02:01.760It was either him or Babak.
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00:02:05.599Now I can't even remember, but it came up in that room and then it came up again with you.
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00:02:13.199Um so vibe coding is gonna show you.
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00:02:21.840Take a feeling and turn it into code.
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00:02:31.120Um take a feeling and turn it into code.
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00:02:31.840Literally that.
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00:02:33.199That is vibe coding.
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00:02:36.400Um the name would suggest.
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00:02:39.039It is exactly what the name would suggest.
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00:02:46.719Um so before I actually show you vibe coding, it's worth a um a quick primer.
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00:03:05.120So yes, essentially it's using natural language, you know, English in our case, and um having the AI basically take what you're describing uh in natural language and generate, you know, anything you could generate with code.
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00:03:10.560Um so that could be software, that could be um, you know, websites.
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00:03:29.360And this was sort of like a it was it was quietly something that was happening almost in parallel with, you know, we had Chat GPT that came out um in you know at the end of 2022, and then we had um GPT-4 that came out in March.
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00:03:35.520Um and so you know, the education sector was kind of like scrambling over, oh, like what do we do with all these chatbots?
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00:03:42.159And um, you know, how do we build things on top of that like leverage these like chatbots or integrate them into different tools?
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00:03:50.240And meanwhile, you know, folks in in the tech sector are really what they were focused on was, you know, this thing is really good at writing code.
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00:03:54.560And they were using it to, you know, make engineers more productive.
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00:03:57.360Initially it was almost like more like autocomplete, if you can imagine that.
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00:04:04.000So you're like typing some code in and it sort of like will suggest sort of like, you know, you just tab to enter and it sort of like helps you write the code like that.
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00:04:10.240Um and and then the capabilities of vibe coding have uh continued to move forward.
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00:04:14.960And then as and then basically what happened is you had GPT 3.5 to GPT 4.
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00:04:19.120And it was, I mean, do you remember do you remember, did you use 3.5, like the 3.5?
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00:04:22.240I've not been a user of uh GPT really at all.
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00:04:24.720I use I use Gemini sometimes for work.
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00:04:27.600So the extent of my experience?
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00:04:35.680Yeah, I mean, if you if you use GPT 3.5, what you would have it was like very cool, but it was it was like it was like a high school student level, right?
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00:04:48.800So it can like write poems and it could write essays, and it was it was cool mostly because it's just like the first time you could see just like AI almost like engaging with you as like a another sort of sort of independent agent.
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00:04:51.279Um, and and it did generate stuff.
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00:04:59.360Uh and then we had GPT 4, and that was like crazy powerful compared to GPT 3.5.
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00:05:08.480Um, you know, it was like now suddenly you're talking to a you know college professor, uh, or at least like a you know, a like a master's student.
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00:05:14.079Um and I think that's where everybody started to realize like, whoa, this is a really big deal.
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00:05:30.319Um, and part of that was baked in this idea that, well, the the technologies, if it it in in a matter of three months, we went from GPT 3.5 to GPT-4, a significantly more powerful model, you know, who knows where we're gonna be in six months, one year, two years.
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00:05:39.600And so there was this like anxiety, this like urgency around we need to just get people access to AI because it's just gonna get so powerful and we don't be left behind.
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00:05:46.959And so there the paradigm, I think, has been really about, you know, how do we just like implement tools and give, you know, get get kids' hands-on, you know, teachers' hands on.
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00:05:55.199Um, but then after GPT-4, we had GPT 4.5 and GPT-5, and then many other models, you know, like Gemini.
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00:06:02.720It was like BARD initially, then Gemini 2 and Gemini 2.5, um and Gemini 3.
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00:06:10.959And and for the for the non-technical user, they did get better, but it started to get better at the margins, you know, like incrementally better.
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00:06:20.480Um, certainly still had all the same problems that GPT 3.5 or GPT-4 had in terms of, you know, it wasn't reliable, it got hallucinated and like made stuff up.
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00:06:27.519Um, and there was a sense of like almost like stagnation in terms of like, yeah, maybe this is just sort of like roughly what we have.
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00:06:32.240Um, but in the background, the coding capabilities of AI kept getting better.
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00:06:42.879Um, and like in and in particular uh last year, uh Anthropic released something called Claude uh 3.7 Sonnet.
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00:06:47.920And this was an incredibly powerful tool for coding.
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00:07:00.560And it it really is what kind of like unlocked the um almost like the Cambrian moment where we're now half of all of the spend on AI right now is just for for for like coding purposes.
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00:07:11.040Um and and then in the summer of 2025, a bunch of companies, including a Google, which this is what I'm showing you, is Google's AI Studio.
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00:07:26.319Um, they updated the user interface to be a lot more user-friendly because before you could vibe code, but it was you were still sort of like in an you know, a coding terminal and you would see lines of code, and it was just it was overwhelming to somebody who had never done anything with code before.
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00:07:33.600Um so they changed the user interface, and now you get um it's just very, it's very very user-friendly.
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00:07:39.839So I'm actually gonna walk you through um I'm gonna walk you through the process of designing something.
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00:07:43.199Um and we're gonna do a little design thinking together.
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00:07:51.759And and I just want you to sort of think about, you know, something that um just like a problem that you have day to day, this doesn't have to be even work-related.
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00:08:07.600Like just to give you an example, someone was telling me they just um they just separated and they have two kids that they take care of um every other week, which makes it really hard to figure out what food to put in the refrigerator because you're like buying all this food for your kids and then like it kind of goes bad.
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00:08:13.120And um, so he always have he always has like has to figure out like what could I make with what I have in the fridge.
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00:08:24.480Um and so one thing that we built together was like a um like a recipe generator that would be like sort of help him sort of like plot out, you know, like what to buy and like you know how to sort of like you know organize it.
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00:08:30.319Um but yeah, any anything that we could just like just right out of the gate, kind of like try to try to hack on together.
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00:08:33.039I mean, I hate packing.
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00:08:33.600Okay.
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00:08:39.679I hate packing, and I have to pack often, as you know, because I travel, both for work and for pleasure.
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00:08:45.440So like there's gotta be a way to make it less painful.
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00:08:46.559I don't know.
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00:08:47.200Okay.
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00:08:48.879It's kind of a boring, boring challenge.
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00:08:49.840Oh, that's a great one.
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00:08:51.200A real one for me.
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00:08:56.480So Yeah, people can send me a list, but I just well, the where the trip, where am I going?
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00:08:57.279Is it a business trip?
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00:08:58.080Is it a personal trip?
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00:08:59.840Is it you know, what's the climate like?
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00:09:00.960What's the weather forecast?
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00:09:10.879I'm always on, like, you know, snap doing like a screenshot of weather channel to say, like, all right, four days in DC looks like this, or you know, three days in LA or five days in Mexico, you know.
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00:09:12.159Yeah.
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00:09:22.559Um so I'm actually gonna use just like a just a regular LLM, this is Gemini, um, to help us come up with the idea first, because that's always like, you know, I think it helps actually do some ideation.
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00:09:27.360Um what what are some of like the what makes packing hard?
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00:09:29.200Like why do you hate packing so much?
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00:09:38.000I think it's I think it's kind of an executive function problem because I think it sort of like requires me to think ahead and plan ahead for multiple days.
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00:09:40.879Um and that feels exhausting.
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00:09:43.360So I procrastinated to the last minute.
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00:09:44.960And then I'm stressed.
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00:09:57.600All right, let's um and so one of the things you're seeing me do here is you see this drop down.
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00:09:59.679I don't know if you've used you, you said you use Gemini.
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00:10:00.080Yeah.
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00:10:05.840Um so a lot of people have like, you know, when they're tempted to like, yeah, you know, I've used Gemini and it's just it's okay.
00:10:05.919 -->
00:10:07.600I don't, I don't think it's that great.
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00:10:12.639Um, and I said, well, like it's like pull up your computer, let me see, show me some of your your prompts.
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00:10:17.519And I looked at all their prompts, and all their prompts had just this, this drop down they were doing fast.
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00:10:24.320So fast is the the weakest model for Gemini, also the fastest and the most cost effective.
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00:10:25.360That's the title.
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00:10:31.039Um but if you want to really see the the magic, um, you want to click on pro.
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00:10:32.799Yeah, I only use a M Pro.
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00:10:38.480Um oh so you're like let's you're already, you know, because it's tied to my work, it's tied to my suite.
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00:10:39.840It's tied to my suite.
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00:10:41.360Uh uh, so I just use it.
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00:10:47.039I've only used it for work, and I use it for personal, so I'm always in my my admin suite, so I have more tools there.
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00:10:48.720Okay, so let's see.
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00:10:51.840A visual outras outfit Tetris app.
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00:10:54.720I loved it.
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00:10:58.960Um a backwards plan or timeline generator.
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00:10:59.840Yeah.
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00:11:01.039This one I feel like.
00:11:01.360 -->
00:11:02.639When do you have to do your laundry?
00:11:02.720 -->
00:11:03.919Like when do you have to, you know?
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00:11:07.120The vibe check packing auditor.
00:11:10.000 -->
00:11:13.120I mean, avoid stuff with like vision because like that can be a little bit more complicated.
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00:11:13.600Okay.
00:11:14.159 -->
00:11:17.919Um I don't know about this one.
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00:11:19.360Sensory friendly event manager.
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00:11:21.279Not too worried about that.
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00:11:25.039Um, so let's let's go with this backwards planner.
00:11:25.120 -->
00:11:31.360The reason I'm not doing this with the Tetrasap is once you it'll just take it'll be long, it'll be it'd be cool, but I couldn't do it in like 10 minutes.
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00:11:32.080Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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00:11:33.279Um, okay.
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00:11:36.240Timeline generator seems like a good idea.
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00:11:41.759So I like the So I like the backwards planner timeline generator.
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00:11:48.000Can you generate a starter prompt for me to drop into AI Studio to get to an initial MVP?
00:11:48.480 -->
00:11:48.799Okay.
00:11:49.039 -->
00:11:50.000I know what MVP is.
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00:11:55.200Importantly, I don't want to use any API connections for this initial build.
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00:11:59.200I don't know what that means, but I'll take your word for it.
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00:12:07.600Um and by the way, we're we're talking about AI skills, and I kind of roll my eyes sometimes when people are like, oh, we're gonna do like a prompt engineering workshop.
00:12:08.240 -->
00:12:17.919Um I roll my eyes because I feel like the only thing you really need to teach somebody when it comes to prompt engineering is that you can just ask the AI for help with whatever it is.
00:12:18.080 -->
00:12:22.320So it's like, I want to do a I want to do a write a prompt to do XYZ.
00:12:22.480 -->
00:12:26.080You just say, How do I help me write the prompt to get to that end goal?
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00:12:32.000So it's so it's almost like if you if you are able to articulate the problem you want to help solve, that's almost all you need to know.
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00:12:32.480Right.
00:12:32.639 -->
00:12:34.799Um but there's a bit more to it, right?
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00:12:43.440This like this intuition of like some of these um, you know, some of the reasons I didn't go down some of these other paths is because I've I've like experimented enough that I've built that intuition.
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00:12:45.440Um, so we have our prompt.
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00:12:48.320Um where do you put that?
00:12:48.480 -->
00:12:49.679And then we're gonna go to AI Studio.
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00:12:50.720So this is AI Studio.
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00:12:52.240Okay, okay, okay, okay.
00:12:52.639 -->
00:12:58.320Um if you go you if you if you log in initially, you'll come to this place, it'll be home.
00:12:58.559 -->
00:13:03.120Um you want to go to build, okay, which is actually where we're gonna describe your idea.
00:13:20.879 -->
00:13:22.000Just call it a webinar.
00:13:22.639 -->
00:13:23.440So what's funny?
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00:13:26.480We didn't say anything about neurodivergence or ADHD, right?
00:13:26.559 -->
00:13:30.480And it's like time blindness, executive function, and I'm like, whoa yeah.
00:13:31.200 -->
00:13:33.440That's uh that's kind of it.
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00:13:39.679Okay, then I click build.
00:13:40.159 -->
00:13:45.759So with vibe coding, you'll usually have pretty much all the tools look roughly similar, by the way.
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00:13:47.120This is another vibe coding app.
00:13:47.279 -->
00:13:47.440Okay.
00:13:47.679 -->
00:13:49.919Um, if you want to see an example of this.
00:13:50.320 -->
00:13:53.600Um and looks roughly the same, right?
00:13:53.679 -->
00:13:59.200You have your your chat bot, your your chat uh box here, um, and then a preview.
00:13:59.360 -->
00:14:05.919So it literally will like code and build the tool um or the application of the software or the website.
00:14:06.000 -->
00:14:08.720Um, and you'll sort of see it in real time as it's developed.
00:14:08.879 -->
00:14:14.320And so, unlike if you've used like a website template, have you ever used like Squarespace or Wix or anything like that?
00:14:14.879 -->
00:14:20.559Um so in Squarespace, you'll go and like actually click and you can like change the text and like it'll be like a text editor.
00:14:20.720 -->
00:14:25.519Um, the way vibe coding works, it's almost like you have um your engineer sitting right next to you.
00:14:25.600 -->
00:14:28.159And so you wouldn't go in and change the title.
00:14:28.320 -->
00:14:33.039You might say, I don't want it to say vibe coding sandbox, I want it to say you know, vibe coding playground.
00:14:33.200 -->
00:14:35.440And you would literally just type that in there and then it would change it.
00:14:35.840 -->
00:14:36.720Okay, okay.
00:14:37.039 -->
00:14:40.720Um so we have so this is where the preview is gonna show up.
00:14:40.799 -->
00:14:42.399It's like literally doing the coding right now.
00:14:42.639 -->
00:14:42.799Okay.
00:14:43.360 -->
00:14:46.720Um creating some metadata.
00:14:47.120 -->
00:14:48.159Okay, here we go.
00:14:51.840 -->
00:15:01.200Um do you have a trip coming up that we could uh I am going to South by Southwest EDU, which hopefully I'll see you.
00:15:01.519 -->
00:15:06.399Uh so I am leaving on March 8th, returning on March 12th.
00:15:11.840 -->
00:15:28.240And then you're there this is uh so we have like some like functionality so you can like check the box.
00:15:28.559 -->
00:15:28.879Okay.
00:15:30.000 -->
00:15:36.799Um so this is now like truly the first the first output.
00:15:37.039 -->
00:15:39.279And what happens now is you start to like iterate on it.
00:15:39.440 -->
00:15:50.240You say, Oh, I'd like to be able to upload um a uh my flight information and have it like sort of like add that to the plan.
00:15:50.720 -->
00:15:59.759Um you might wanna you might say, oh, during the like pack, like for the like whenever there's more detail there for sure.
00:16:00.080 -->
00:16:06.240Yeah, I want to be able to add like a to-do list underneath each of these sort of like uh like the sort of like the the cards on the timeline.
00:16:06.320 -->
00:16:06.639Yeah.
00:16:06.720 -->
00:16:08.480Um and it'll just build that stuff for you.
00:16:08.720 -->
00:16:08.960Okay.
00:16:09.120 -->
00:16:14.320Um so if we took more time, we could we could pretty much build the app for you.
00:16:14.480 -->
00:16:14.720Yeah.
00:16:14.879 -->
00:16:16.879Um and I can send you this afterward if you want to hack it.
00:16:17.120 -->
00:16:18.080Yes, yes, I'm curious.
00:16:18.240 -->
00:16:18.480Yes.
00:16:18.799 -->
00:16:19.759I want to play with it.
00:16:20.240 -->
00:16:25.279But the where's my meter study?
00:16:27.600 -->
00:16:29.840It is here.
00:16:30.799 -->
00:16:35.519Um so this is this is kind of what happened as I was kind of talking to you about.
00:16:35.679 -->
00:16:55.039So um what you're looking at here is um a benchmark that uh this organization uses to um figure out like how many times can LLMs complete uh coding tasks, um, and how long does it take to complete the task.
00:16:56.639 -->
00:17:08.079And basically what we're seeing is that the um uh like the time horizon is increasing.
00:17:08.559 -->
00:17:10.480Um it's getting longer.
00:17:41.680 -->
00:17:52.799So um the the one of the big limitations with with uh with using AI to code is that um are you familiar with context windows?
00:17:54.079 -->
00:18:06.640So um let's say you were gonna write an essay uh or a an op-ed um about you know something about education, um, you could upload like background information to help it write.
00:18:06.799 -->
00:18:12.319Um over time, the um the length of how much background information you could upload has increased.
00:18:12.720 -->
00:18:25.680So it used to be that you could only upload like 400 words, and then that increased to like 800, and then um then you could upload like you know a six-page document, and and now you're able to upload like, you know, a whole book.
00:18:26.319 -->
00:18:44.799Um well with coding, the way that that has played out is you know, you could use AI to do tasks that would only take you, let's say, 10 minutes or 15 minutes, but the minute you get to like longer tasks, like something that would take you, let's say two hours, there's so much code that you're writing in that two-hour process, it's all it's creating all this context.
00:18:44.960 -->
00:18:47.920Um and the AI just fails.
00:18:48.079 -->
00:18:57.279Uh so um the higher on the chart, it means like the the the longer the task that AI can successfully complete.
00:18:57.680 -->
00:18:58.240Ah, okay.
00:18:58.400 -->
00:18:58.960Okay, okay.
00:18:59.039 -->
00:19:00.240Thank you for clarifying.
00:19:00.559 -->
00:19:05.759Um that's impressive then, and maybe a little scary for some people.
00:19:06.240 -->
00:19:07.839Very, very, very much in terms of jobs.
00:19:08.240 -->
00:19:12.079So we're we're getting to you know pretty sophisticated tasks.
00:19:12.240 -->
00:19:12.559Yeah.
00:19:12.799 -->
00:19:20.000Um, you know, and and kind of my example of like, you know, cloud cowork being written in a week, it's like and almost entirely generated by AI.
00:19:20.400 -->
00:19:32.240Um it has gone from a helpful tool to support and augment engineers to a tool that can attack that can almost wholesale replace work that an engineer would do.
00:19:32.559 -->
00:19:36.880Um and again, this this happened middle of last year.
00:19:37.039 -->
00:19:37.359Yeah.
00:19:38.000 -->
00:19:40.400So it's a quantum leap, as they say.
00:19:40.640 -->
00:19:51.200It is, and and the combination of that with the user friendliness of being able to literally just like type in something you want and you have this, and you can now share it just like you would share like a Google Doc.
00:19:51.519 -->
00:20:00.960Um, you can publish this, by the way, as like an application with its own URL, and you could share with friends or with your um with your child or anybody that might want to use it.
00:20:01.200 -->
00:20:20.319Um so I that's mostly I mostly just want to share because that's what's on my mind is we we don't like we we have to come to terms with this technology is moving way faster than the infrastructure of the educ of education.
00:20:20.799 -->
00:20:41.039And that I think that's the segue to sort of like the conversation I'd love to have with you, Jen, is you know, how how do we make sure that the education sector is actually thinking the long game and not just so focused on the the shiny objects, the tools of today, as we're thinking about like what does school transformation look like?
00:20:41.200 -->
00:20:43.359What does the you know building capacity look like?
00:20:43.519 -->
00:20:54.480Is it capacity to use tools like magic school, or is it something a little bit bigger that is reactive to whatever the tools might look like in one year, in two years?
00:20:54.720 -->
00:21:00.160And then there's a whole separate thread that we may or may not have time for, which is what are the implications for the future of work, right?
00:21:00.240 -->
00:21:05.759If like these, if like you know, you can complete six hour tasks now with AI, what are people going to be doing?
00:21:05.920 -->
00:21:07.200Like, will they be doing anything?
00:21:07.279 -->
00:21:08.799Um, is a question people are asking.
00:21:09.039 -->
00:21:26.079But before we get into all of that, uh, Jen, could you give us sort of like a maybe like a short jot through through your journey and like sort of what brought you to this place where you are today where you're you've you've been sort of pulled into these like really interesting, you know, high-level conversations about sort of charting the future of education.
00:21:26.319 -->
00:21:27.839And go back as far as you want.
00:21:27.920 -->
00:21:29.039We can, you know.
00:21:30.160 -->
00:21:31.200Um thank you.
00:21:31.599 -->
00:21:32.160This is fun.
00:21:32.240 -->
00:21:34.559I'm happy to see you, happy to be doing this.
00:21:34.720 -->
00:21:40.000And there's certainly a very long version of the story that I could tell that I'll try to tell a bit abridge version.
00:21:40.160 -->
00:21:41.119But I do think it's important.
00:21:41.279 -->
00:21:42.400The roots are important, right?
00:21:42.480 -->
00:21:46.640Like I grew up in the suburbs of Philly and my parents split when I was nine.
00:21:46.799 -->
00:21:55.599And my mom moved into Philadelphia and my dad lived in the suburbs, which is ironic because my mom was white living in a predominantly black neighborhood, and my dad was black living in a predominantly white neighborhood.
00:21:55.680 -->
00:21:59.759Um, but I saw education inequity firsthand because of the experience.
00:22:00.319 -->
00:22:01.839Of existing in these two neighborhoods.
00:22:02.079 -->
00:22:06.799The opportunities available to young people in those two settings were night and day, completely different.
00:22:07.039 -->
00:22:10.079So I think that informed me, you know, through undergrad.
00:22:10.160 -->
00:22:18.880I was the first someone to be a journalist, but I decided I ended up switching to focus on education based on some classes that I took late in college and then work experiences post.
00:22:19.039 -->
00:22:22.160I worked briefly in the private sector and then I worked for an AmeriCorps program.
00:22:22.319 -->
00:22:23.759Very eye-opening opportunity.
00:22:23.839 -->
00:22:27.200I was able to visit all the sites in Philly and New York and be in schools.
00:22:27.279 -->
00:22:28.319And I was like, okay, this is it.
00:22:28.400 -->
00:22:29.839You know, red savage inequalities.
00:22:30.000 -->
00:22:30.640I just okay.
00:22:30.799 -->
00:22:34.240This is what I want to do with my life is think about this, this work on this issue.
00:22:34.400 -->
00:22:45.039So I went to grad school and earned my PhD in education policy and administration at Stanford, ended up doing my dissertation on San Diego, uh, a high school reform initiative that was happening then.
00:22:45.119 -->
00:22:46.400And I ended up studying that.
00:22:46.559 -->
00:22:50.160So I moved to San Diego and worked on that for a couple of years, postdoc.
00:22:50.240 -->
00:22:55.680And then I ended up getting hired after doing a consulting project for high tech high, ended up getting hired there.
00:22:55.920 -->
00:23:00.240And so that was definitely a cutting edge kind of place to end up, especially in 2004.
00:23:00.319 -->
00:23:01.920I think it had opened in 2000.
00:23:02.160 -->
00:23:10.480So, you know, explosive growth, numbers of schools, and also Yeah, just for our listeners who haven't heard of High Tech High, yeah, can you give me a high tech high?
00:23:10.559 -->
00:23:18.000To me, high tech high kind of call it like it's the education's perfect storm in some ways, in that the the thinking behind it, the founders, brilliant people who came together.
00:23:18.160 -->
00:23:25.200They had an architect on the design team, they had uh philanthropy uh who was excited to support this effort in a big way.
00:23:25.440 -->
00:23:31.680They had uh land that was going from um that was sort of being decommissioned, whenever like a naval plate base.
00:23:31.759 -->
00:23:37.920So they got like built, you know, a dollar, one of those, like, you know, they got land and space for a great price in a great location.
00:23:38.000 -->
00:23:39.920And so it was like all these things came together.
00:23:40.079 -->
00:23:44.240And the vision was to create project-based learning-focused schools, uh, public schools.
00:23:44.400 -->
00:23:53.839And so they started with one and then they added a middle school, and then they added another high school, and then they and now I think across the sort of San Diego region, I think there's uh 14 schools or something like that.
00:23:54.000 -->
00:23:56.400So continues to be an innovative place.
00:23:56.480 -->
00:24:01.279Uh, when I was there, they got approved to um certify their own teachers, which was the first charter approved to do that.
00:24:01.359 -->
00:24:02.480So that was part of my job.
00:24:02.640 -->
00:24:08.720And they had a large Gates Foundation grant to try to replicate back when we thought you could replicate a perfect storm.
00:24:09.039 -->
00:24:10.799We have gotten a little smarter since then.
00:24:10.880 -->
00:24:17.039Uh, but there were schools that were started in that high tech high network that are still going strong, and many have closed uh from that initial network.
00:24:17.119 -->
00:24:22.720You know, it would actually be interesting to study the sort of trajectory of that whole uh network of schools that we helped to start.
00:24:22.880 -->
00:24:27.279And then the founder of High Tech High, Larry Rosenstock, wanted to start a grad school.
00:24:27.359 -->
00:24:29.599He just was like, let's I want that.edu.
00:24:29.839 -->
00:24:31.119Let's start grad school.
00:24:31.359 -->
00:24:38.400And so we uh kind of I had to figure out how do you start a graduate school in a K-12 charter context in California?
00:24:38.559 -->
00:24:39.359And we did.
00:24:39.440 -->
00:24:41.680And that that grad school is still going very strong.
00:24:41.839 -->
00:24:44.960But San Diego was not sort of for me uh ultimately.
00:24:45.119 -->
00:24:54.640So I moved to Chicago and worked at Chicago Public Schools and then kind of moved around as many of us did, sort of after Arnie Duncan left Chicago and went to DC to join the first Obama administration.
00:24:54.799 -->
00:25:05.680Um, you know, things kind of got unsettled in the Chicago context, but ended up leading a nonprofit and then going to the Gates Foundation, uh, where I was for six years on the Networks for School Improvement Strategy.
00:25:05.759 -->
00:25:09.119So I ran the community of practice, this national community of practice.
00:25:09.200 -->
00:25:12.240There was about, I don't know, 21 grantee organizations in there.
00:25:12.400 -->
00:25:26.160And so a real focus on secondary schools, um, using continuous improvement, moving particular outcomes that were sort of, you know, codified in the strategy, uh, working with teams that were working on these things, doing capacity building, convening, stuff like that.
00:25:26.319 -->
00:25:27.759And so then my strategy was ending.
00:25:27.839 -->
00:25:28.799So my role was ending.
00:25:28.880 -->
00:25:30.079So the question was, what's next?
00:25:30.160 -->
00:25:31.440This is 2024.
00:25:31.680 -->
00:25:39.519And I decided to start my own consulting practice, you know, kind of I've been doing adult learning work and education, you know, for 20 plus years.
00:25:39.599 -->
00:25:47.519So I thought, you know, and I've now seen it from philanthropy, I've seen it from a district perspective, I've seen it from a nonprofit charter, been an ED of a nonprofit, I've been an employee of a nonprofit.
00:25:47.599 -->
00:25:53.839So I was like, I think I have lots of a good almost 360 perspective on some of these things, you know, I think I can be helpful.
00:25:53.920 -->
00:26:00.480Um, so I started my consulting practice, which is called Steward Education Advisors in uh September of 2024.
00:26:00.559 -->
00:26:09.200And then I met you uh at one a convening that I was helping to plan uh for the Education Fund or Strategy Group in partnership with Ed Council and the rest of history.
00:26:09.279 -->
00:26:10.000I'm here.
00:26:10.319 -->
00:26:11.039And here you are.
00:26:11.200 -->
00:26:11.519Yes.
00:26:11.839 -->
00:26:15.599Yeah, and and yeah, education EFSG Education Fund and Strategy Group.
00:26:15.680 -->
00:26:23.359I mean, this is I mean, these are some of the most sort of uh sort of pivotal philanthropies in the education space coming together.
00:26:23.680 -->
00:26:30.559I mean, I remember you and I met, this was months and months before at Grandmakers for Education, actually, when you had mentioned.
00:26:30.799 -->
00:26:43.119Um, and so there was a lot of planning that went into this, and it was it was reflected by the way, hold on, I have a cat who is um wanting to get out of interaction.
00:26:43.359 -->
00:26:43.599Yes.
00:26:44.319 -->
00:26:52.400Um I mean I'm curious, like where where are folks' minds right now?
00:26:52.720 -->
00:26:54.799Like, is is it is it excitement?
00:26:54.960 -->
00:27:01.039Is it like are are folks just sort of like still feeling a sense of like you know confusion or anxiety?
00:27:01.279 -->
00:27:03.200Or do the do people is there a plan?
00:27:03.279 -->
00:27:10.960I mean, I just you know it's been the three years on since you know Chat GPT and language models kind of were thrust upon us, like truly just from your vantage point.
00:27:11.039 -->
00:27:13.359Um, about AI?
00:27:14.000 -->
00:27:14.799About AI, yeah.
00:27:14.960 -->
00:27:15.839Of course, of course, unfortunately.
00:27:17.759 -->
00:27:22.079From my perspective in general in the world right now, uh, but with AI specifically.
00:27:22.400 -->
00:27:24.640You know, oh boy, that's a good question.
00:27:24.799 -->
00:27:26.640I think that there is definitely anxiety.
00:27:26.799 -->
00:27:35.279I think with any um any technology, anything that moves really fast uh makes people anxious because they're like, I don't know what this is, I don't have control over it.
00:27:35.440 -->
00:27:36.799There's a lot of unknown there.
00:27:36.880 -->
00:27:44.400I think that when you're working with smart people, you know, then I these thinking about these people in philanthropy, they want to be ahead of the curve.
00:27:44.480 -->
00:27:48.559And there's no way to be ahead of this curve because the curve keeps shifting.
00:27:48.799 -->
00:27:57.680And so I think that sort of there's like there's almost like a humility that you have to be like, okay, I'm not gonna be the person who knows the most about this, but can I know enough to at least be helpful?
00:27:57.920 -->
00:28:04.240And so I think that there is, I and I think probably like there's almost like an adoption curve of people, right?
00:28:04.319 -->
00:28:07.759Like there's some folks who are like, all right, let's do this, let's get on it.
00:28:07.920 -->
00:28:09.839There's people who are like, ooh, let's wait and see.
00:28:09.920 -->
00:28:15.279You know, there's laggards, there's so I think there is definitely, I don't think there's certainly not one reaction.
00:28:15.440 -->
00:28:19.759Um, I do think that there's a pretty universal awareness that this is a thing we need to pay attention to.
00:28:20.000 -->
00:28:23.519But I think there's a lot of trying to learn and figure it out and see what's happening.
00:28:23.599 -->
00:28:28.240I I don't feel like folks, my experience is I don't feel like folks feel like they have a good handle on it.
00:28:28.480 -->
00:28:34.559And so, and it's like a second step, because it's like, especially in education, if you're thinking about, you know, what are folks doing, what do they need help?
00:28:34.799 -->
00:28:39.200First, you have to kind of understand the lay of the land if you're gonna think about where you might step in and support it.
00:28:39.359 -->
00:28:44.799And so I think that things are still sort of um, they haven't quite um gelled.
00:28:46.079 -->
00:28:48.400Um it's a tricky time.
00:28:48.480 -->
00:28:49.839I think it's a tricky time.
00:28:50.160 -->
00:28:56.160And because that is laid on top of a world that feels like it's in crisis and is actually in many ways, right?
00:28:56.400 -->
00:29:03.279And in ways that have huge impacts on education, both structurally and students' lives and communities specifically.
00:29:03.440 -->
00:29:12.079You know, so like I think if this were coming at a time that there wasn't all this other stuff, maybe people would be able to attend to it in a more disciplined way.
00:29:12.319 -->
00:29:17.839But it's like one thing amongst lots of things that feel very urgent right now.
00:29:18.000 -->
00:29:23.039So I think that is part of what's sort of steining having a more uh organized response to it.
00:29:23.279 -->
00:29:29.680Yeah, I mean, I mean, education is always hard because there's like it, there's always crises.
00:29:30.000 -->
00:29:53.039I mean, even if it's just like, you know, a school bus strike or, you know, a like, you know, my mom taught in Akron Public Schools and just and she does she was like an assistant principal for a while and like dealt with like discipline and just like you know, this the stuff that she had to deal with on a day-to-day basis, setting aside like the macro challenges, like even the day-to-day in good times is very complicated and it's hard to be focused.
00:29:53.200 -->
00:29:56.480And then you layering in literal, like, you know, it's like budget cuts.
00:29:56.559 -->
00:30:08.960And then um, I actually just presented at a school on uh last Monday, and there was like the the national walkout on the previous Friday in protest of what ICE was doing in Minnesota.
00:30:09.519 -->
00:30:12.319And you know, it's like I was actually going there to present.
00:30:12.400 -->
00:30:17.599It was like uh the the the teachers, the staff were all together, and so it was like a staff, you know, learning opportunity.
00:30:17.680 -->
00:30:38.240And um, like the first 20 minutes were you know, folks kind of like just debriefing on all of the stuff that happened around that and like the way that the um, you know, just like how the teachers are feeling and you know, like what it meant for those teachers who didn't want guys and it was just like just as a way to demonstrate, you know, he were here to learn together.
00:30:38.480 -->
00:30:41.200Um, but that was a conversation that had to happen, right?
00:30:41.279 -->
00:30:48.240It's like it's like you can't, as a school leader, you can't just say, well, this AI thing is really important, so we're gonna just ignore the other stuff.
00:30:48.319 -->
00:31:06.400And funders, I'm sure, are getting a lot of emergency appeals right now, whether it's organizations that are, you know, having to mobilize, you know, for what all the various, you know, needs that are that the moment is requiring from activists, from uh nonprofit groups, but then also just like because of budget cuts.
00:31:06.559 -->
00:31:07.200Yes, exactly.
00:31:07.440 -->
00:31:12.400You know, it's like there are most funders that I've talked to are not in a growth mindset right now.
00:31:12.559 -->
00:31:21.759Like they're not thinking about how do we expand, they're thinking about how do we keep folks' lights on and you know, and they're getting hit by new tax laws that are changing their ability to give.
00:31:22.000 -->
00:31:22.720Yeah, it's very hard.
00:31:22.880 -->
00:31:31.200Yeah, and yeah, substance where we managed to get, I think it was like what 40 or 50 funders to take two and a half days together and create that shared space.
00:31:31.440 -->
00:31:41.920And it's interesting, you you you I one of the things you said struck me, it's like it people with education are not like it it they don't have the move fast and break things mentality.
00:31:42.079 -->
00:31:43.039No, which I think is good.
00:31:43.119 -->
00:31:45.279I I I think I would rather that we're working with children.
00:31:45.359 -->
00:31:45.599Yeah.
00:31:45.839 -->
00:31:47.200We don't want to break children.
00:31:48.720 -->
00:31:49.119Right.
00:31:49.359 -->
00:31:52.160So yeah, I don't know, I mean, I don't know about you.
00:31:52.240 -->
00:32:01.359I think if I had to choose between the the space moving too fast or too slow, I would choose too slow, even though there's there's risks with that as well.
00:32:01.599 -->
00:32:03.119Because yeah, we're dealing with kids.
00:32:03.200 -->
00:32:06.480We don't really want to experiment on kids experiment on kids entirely.
00:32:06.799 -->
00:32:06.960Right.
00:32:07.119 -->
00:32:18.960And then you still have the adoption curve there, because obviously we have schools, districts, places that are really seizing this moment, you know, like we had folks from Gwinnett County, like they're doing really interesting forward-thinking stuff about how to integrate this in.
00:32:19.119 -->
00:32:23.599We got micro schools, you know, I mean there's lots of, you know, so there's there's again the curve.
00:32:23.680 -->
00:32:30.559And then there's a but I think that yes, the bulk of the curve is still on the slower adoption end of things for sure.
00:32:30.880 -->
00:32:39.039I mean, this feels like a crazy moment, and it probably is maybe the fastest technology has ever changed in the history of humankind.
00:32:39.119 -->
00:32:45.119I mean, I'm trying to think of maybe if it was there ever like a faster takeoff, and I can't quite think of anything.
00:32:45.279 -->
00:32:53.839Maybe like the nuclear bomb in terms of how quickly that changed geopolitics, but you know, all the other industrial revolutions played out over like, you know, two to five decades.
00:32:54.000 -->
00:32:57.279Not how would you compare it to the internet, the advent of the internet?
00:32:58.559 -->
00:33:02.319Well, I mean, think about I mean, I remember when my parents had dial-up.
00:33:02.640 -->
00:33:03.039Yeah.
00:33:03.279 -->
00:33:07.680And I remember when we had broadband, and that was like five years later.
00:33:07.920 -->
00:33:08.240Yeah, yeah.
00:33:08.559 -->
00:33:09.839And then I remember when I got my first smartphone.
00:33:10.079 -->
00:33:10.640It's a lot slower.
00:33:10.799 -->
00:33:12.240The progression was a lot slower.
00:33:12.319 -->
00:33:16.799It wasn't six months from one, you know, release to the next that changes everything or whatever.
00:33:16.960 -->
00:33:18.240Yeah, it was it was much slower.
00:33:18.319 -->
00:33:18.960That makes sense to me.
00:33:19.039 -->
00:33:19.599Yes, that's right.
00:33:19.920 -->
00:33:23.839But still, I mean, like, I think that's like part of, you know, if you're I'm a student of history.
00:33:23.920 -->
00:33:31.279I mean, and as you look at sort of like as we've had more, like, you know, we've had a couple industrial revolutions, you know, under our belt.
00:33:31.359 -->
00:33:33.519This really does feel like an industrial revolution.
00:33:34.000 -->
00:33:37.519Um, the time scales do get compressed each time.
00:33:38.079 -->
00:33:42.799Um, because you're in in each case, you're building on top of, you know, everything that came before.
00:33:42.960 -->
00:33:55.279So, you know, AI already had the internet, and so Chat GBT was able to hit, I think, like 100 million users in like an hour or something, um, because everybody's already connected and sharing it on TikTok and reels or whatever.
00:33:55.440 -->
00:33:55.680Yep.
00:33:55.839 -->
00:34:04.799But I the reason I bring that up is because this is not the first time that education has had to make sense of new technologies and figure out how do we sort of transform.
00:34:04.960 -->
00:34:07.440Um, and I'm curious if like, did it feel like this?
00:34:07.599 -->
00:34:17.119Like, was there the same kind of like scramble and mix of excitement and anxiety about getting computers into schools or getting internet into schools?
00:34:17.440 -->
00:34:17.679Yeah.
00:34:17.840 -->
00:34:21.039I don't, I think it's I think it feels pretty different.
00:34:21.119 -->
00:34:25.920You know, I remember the first Apple, you know, computers coming in when I was in elementary school.
00:34:26.000 -->
00:34:27.280That's you know, where I am, Gen X.
00:34:28.000 -->
00:34:32.000I think that why this feels different to me, especially thinking about like ed tech.
00:34:32.239 -->
00:34:35.039Like ed tech was sort of about how to deliver content better.
00:34:35.199 -->
00:34:41.920You know, I mean it was sort of not fundamentally changing the the nature of things, you know, maybe some of the the how, but not as much the what.
00:34:42.159 -->
00:34:45.519I think that this is changing so many things.
00:34:45.679 -->
00:34:48.159It can change how you teach your kids.
00:34:48.400 -->
00:35:03.599It can change how your kids respond and and produce content, it can change in the kinds of jobs that are available to kids, it can change what kinds of information and resources are available to kids outside of school or in school.
00:35:03.760 -->
00:35:09.039Like it's changing so many facets of life at the same time.
00:35:09.199 -->
00:35:12.719Whereas I think those other pieces were much more like circumscribed.
00:35:12.800 -->
00:35:15.119And I was like, this is gonna change how you teach math.
00:35:15.280 -->
00:35:19.199You know, that's still a thing, and that's still, you know, not inconsequential.
00:35:19.360 -->
00:35:28.000But this thing has so many dimensions to it and so many ways it can change our lives that I feel like it's just it feels so much bigger.
00:35:28.880 -->
00:35:29.440Yeah.
00:35:29.760 -->
00:35:39.920You mentioned Quinn County, you like there's there's actually like a really long list of schools that are, you know, forward thinkers that are actually doing like walking the walk.
00:35:40.079 -->
00:35:43.199And they may not have all the answers, but they're like, hey, we have to try something.
00:35:43.440 -->
00:35:46.320In part because the kids are sort of forcing them to, right?
00:35:46.480 -->
00:35:50.639Because like at the end of the day, the kids are using this, using this stuff, you know, with or without you.
00:35:50.800 -->
00:35:56.800And even if you block it and ban it and have all the academic integrity policies in in school, they can just go home.
00:35:56.960 -->
00:36:01.440And so that's become a trigger to schools that are like, you know, they've been pushed over the ledge.
00:36:01.840 -->
00:36:04.000And and there are some like amazing stories.
00:36:04.079 -->
00:36:06.320And I I it's but it's not enough, right?
00:36:06.400 -->
00:36:15.679Like it's it's it's there's a long list, but relative to the you know, tens of thousands of school districts across the country, um, it's still a really, really small segment of them.
00:36:15.840 -->
00:36:16.079Yeah.
00:36:16.320 -->
00:36:24.800What do you see as like the most important conditions that need to be in place for a school to go from being sort of on the back foot to the front foot?
00:36:25.440 -->
00:36:30.800I think that uh I think leadership is huge.
00:36:30.960 -->
00:36:37.039I think how who the leaders are, what the leaders sort of know, their sort of like growth mindset and openness.
00:36:37.199 -->
00:36:48.559And then the way they sort of think about introducing, you know, new tools or or new approaches to their staff, I feel like that is sort of the crux of a lot of change.
00:36:48.800 -->
00:36:55.199You will have some bottom-up places where you'll have teachers, teacher leaders who embrace things and bring them to their colleagues or bring them to leadership.
00:36:55.280 -->
00:37:03.519So it's not always a top-down thing, but I think the role of the leader, if you actually want something to diffuse across more than one classroom, I think leadership is really important.
00:37:03.760 -->
00:37:17.679And when I think about, even when I think about my career, which a lot of it has been about diffusing innovation, you know, it may not seem obvious, you look at my resume, but I mean, working at High Tech High was about how do we get more schools to use project-based learning.
00:37:17.840 -->
00:37:24.800You know, even when I was at Academy for Open School Leadership, how do we get more schools to be thoughtful about, you know, really turning around the lowest performing schools?
00:37:24.960 -->
00:37:33.039You know, some of what we did was probably, I would feel differently about it now in the rear view, but that was an urgent sort of push and coming from the feds.
00:37:33.119 -->
00:37:42.800And so I feel like what I've observed in an effort to try to disseminate innovation is that resources are only useful to people when they're useful to them.
00:37:43.360 -->
00:37:45.360It's very simple sounding right.
00:37:45.679 -->
00:37:51.039So you can have all the resources in the world, but if I don't see it's gotta be user-centered at some level, right?
00:37:51.119 -->
00:38:01.599If I don't see how this thing is gonna help me do my job better, help my kids learn better, help me prepare my kids for the future better, then I'm gonna probably not use it because we still, you can still close the door in a classroom.
00:38:01.679 -->
00:38:10.159And so I think that I think, and I even see this just in the general world, you know, like a lot of AI stuff is being pitched or like being put on my phone.
00:38:10.239 -->
00:38:12.000And I'm like, I don't want this.
00:38:12.239 -->
00:38:13.280How do I turn this off?
00:38:13.440 -->
00:38:15.360Like, I don't want it's not helpful to me.
00:38:15.440 -->
00:38:17.599It's not because I don't like AI or don't want it.
00:38:17.760 -->
00:38:19.440It's just I don't want that right now.
00:38:19.519 -->
00:38:26.719I don't, that doesn't help me use this app that is so like if we keep foisting it on people, then I think you're gonna not see the kind of uptake you want.
00:38:26.880 -->
00:38:40.480I think you have to work with people to figure out what is the problem you're trying to solve, or how can we use these tools to help you do your job better or to free up your time to do the things that that are only being able to be done by a human, right?
00:38:40.639 -->
00:38:45.440Like I remember, I can't remember, it was someone I think at the ESSG meeting that shared some data.
00:38:45.519 -->
00:38:52.239I think it might have been useful about like teachers using a tool to do the first pass review of these essays and give the kids feedback.
00:38:52.320 -->
00:38:59.920And then the kids turn in the revision and then the teacher read the final versions or whatever, you know, and how the students' grades went up.
00:39:00.159 -->
00:39:08.800Now, I don't know all the details of how that happened, but I'm just like, how can we think about the things that that's that so to me, that is meeting a teacher's need, right?
00:39:08.880 -->
00:39:14.639Like you can do the first pass on essay and kind of get rid of like the easy like grammatical mistake, grammatical mistake, like stuff like that.
00:39:14.800 -->
00:39:15.119Do that.
00:39:15.199 -->
00:39:16.079I don't need to do that, right?
00:39:16.159 -->
00:39:17.679You can do a computer do that.
00:39:17.920 -->
00:39:24.639Get the kid to improve it, then let me get in there and give that human level of feedback that that probably a computer can't provide.
00:39:24.719 -->
00:39:26.079A computer doesn't know you as a kid.
00:39:26.159 -->
00:39:27.679They don't know your learner, whatever.
00:39:27.840 -->
00:39:58.719So I think that how do we make those kinds of cases to people that like it can make maybe more efficient, make let you use your time and way it just separating out those sort of uniquely human things that humans need to do, and then things that maybe could be done using another modality and present that to teachers in a way that feels helpful, that doesn't feel you're trying to take my job away, you're trying to de-skill me, you're trying, you know, like I just I think there's you have to kind of sell it and you have to sell it in a way that feels user-centered.
00:39:58.800 -->
00:40:03.519And I feel like uh kind of a lot of what I've seen doesn't feel that way to me.
00:40:03.760 -->
00:40:08.719And I think that, you know, and I do think there is a diffusion of innovation even within schools.
00:40:08.880 -->
00:40:11.599Like you can have you have your early adopters.
00:40:11.679 -->
00:40:19.039So, like, okay, go to where it's warm, have those people pilot some stuff, and then the kids start talking about this cool thing they're doing in so-and-so's classroom.
00:40:19.119 -->
00:40:20.800And that teacher's like, wait, what are they doing?
00:40:20.880 -->
00:40:21.599I want to do that too.
00:40:21.679 -->
00:40:24.480I want kids talking about my class, like, you know, like it.
00:40:24.639 -->
00:40:31.360So I think it's sort of like, you know, some people say, like a wedge and spread, you know, like you got to get in there and then you gotta spread it.
00:40:31.519 -->
00:40:46.400But just doing it completely top down or not making the direct connection to how is this gonna make my life better, my kids' life better, the world better, whatever it is, you know, if without that um rationale behind it, I think it's it's gonna continue to be a hard sell.
00:40:46.639 -->
00:40:56.079We know that, you know, people don't have time, they don't have the resources, you know, like we know that we're going into a challenged environment, particularly in public schools that serve students with the highest needs.
00:40:56.320 -->
00:41:12.480So how do you take this environment that already is stretched very thin and allow people uh sort of uh incentivize people to want to try something different when they feel like they have no bandwidth, not even enough bandwidth to do what they need to do day to day?
00:41:12.719 -->
00:41:19.679I mean, that's probably not you know the most innovative thinking, but that's just that's where I think we are, is that we we're not selling it well.
00:41:20.800 -->
00:41:40.559Well, yeah, and I think, you know, the the startup founders would say, well, we are we are making the case and they're doing all this marketing, and no doubt there's probably some AI involved in sending out all the emails and because the teachers I talk to are it's it's not that people aren't trying to show them how AI could help them.
00:41:40.639 -->
00:41:48.960It's like they're being bombarded with hundreds, maybe thousands of um, you know, companies trying to convince them that this is going to be helpful.
00:41:49.119 -->
00:41:50.960But I think what you're saying is really important.
00:41:51.039 -->
00:41:57.039It's it's the like who is communicating that is very uh like it is pivotal, right?
00:41:57.119 -->
00:42:04.320Like if this is coming from another teacher, the level of trust there is it's it's it's not even like comparable, right?
00:42:04.400 -->
00:42:07.760Compared to like because teachers get pitched up all the time, whether it's AI or otherwise.
00:42:07.920 -->
00:42:08.079Yeah.
00:42:08.239 -->
00:42:08.960Um 100%.
00:42:09.360 -->
00:42:11.760And teachers also get told to use a bunch of stuff.
00:42:11.920 -->
00:42:26.960Uh that is actually like the practice of teaching is essentially the practice of sort of like operating within an extremely rigid and frustrating bureaucracy, which has gone through, you know, with no child left behind, this sort of obsession with measurement at, you know, at the expense of well, project-based learning, among other things.
00:42:27.199 -->
00:42:34.320And so it's not so simple as, well, you just need an administrator who is creating an AI initiative and making sure that teachers are all using AI.
00:42:34.480 -->
00:42:42.880Because a savvy administrator, and certainly the savvy ones we talk to, will say, Well, I could do this, but I know that's actually not the best path to success.
00:42:43.039 -->
00:42:46.320This needs to be at least partially homegrown.
00:42:46.480 -->
00:42:49.760And like that wedge and spread is interesting, like that teacher-to-teacher.
00:42:50.159 -->
00:42:52.000Yeah, or it could be a coach, you know.
00:42:52.159 -->
00:42:55.199I mean, like an instructional weekly, like a yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:55.360 -->
00:42:57.039We see improvement, literacy improvement.
00:42:57.119 -->
00:43:02.159You know, if you, you know, unpack what's happening in like Mississippi, there's a lot of coaching.
00:43:02.320 -->
00:43:09.840So what would what could be the role of kind of an innovation coach or an AI, someone who sits with you almost like a therapist, safety, what's going on?
00:43:10.000 -->
00:43:10.880What do you need help with?
00:43:10.960 -->
00:43:14.320What's not working, you know, and sort of then says, here's some things that you might try.
00:43:14.480 -->
00:43:15.280I can help you.
00:43:15.440 -->
00:43:16.079Let's do this.
00:43:16.159 -->
00:43:18.880And then I think then you could see some uptake, right?
00:43:18.960 -->
00:43:31.760If there, again, it's a human, you know, this, I think for this whole thing to work, especially in education, there has to be a human interface, you know, between these major points, like between teacher and student, maybe between, you know, product and teacher.
00:43:31.840 -->
00:43:41.599There's a human interface, you know, like between principal and teacher, you know, I just think that there has to be, I think there's a humanization aspect to it or that is being perhaps missed.
00:43:42.000 -->
00:43:47.119And that all sounds sounds well and good, but the the the the well, the challenge in education is just the scale, right?
00:43:47.199 -->
00:43:49.760So you have what, fifty million kids?
00:43:50.159 -->
00:43:53.280Four million teachers, uh I think forty thousand districts.
00:43:53.360 -->
00:43:59.280I I used to have that this number down I uh many, many thousands of districts, and it's all decentralized, so you can't just go top down.
00:43:59.599 -->
00:43:59.760Yes.
00:44:00.079 -->
00:44:01.280Or better and worse, frankly.
00:44:01.519 -->
00:44:07.119And so it is easy, it's easy to go to to look at one school and say, okay, like we could sort of map out how this could play.
00:44:07.280 -->
00:44:14.800But then if you're trying to reach, you know, the the really large, you know, audience of communities that are going to need this support, it feels a bit intractable.
00:44:14.880 -->
00:44:19.599And and one of the pieces of your work at Gates, which is really focused on community practice models.
00:44:19.840 -->
00:44:28.480And one of our like sort of strategies and theories of change, which is, you know, going rather than doing breadth, like actually going really deep with like subsets of teachers.
00:44:28.639 -->
00:44:30.480We have like our Trailblazer Fellowship.
00:44:30.960 -->
00:44:56.400But what we found is that it's not just about that one teacher changing her practices, it's that that teacher is now connecting into a community of other teachers, and then they are bringing other peers along and they are supporting their administration and like making the case because now they're an exemplar that the principal wants to celebrate and it becomes less about how do we get AI into our school and how do we support more teachers to do what you know Stephanie is doing.
00:44:56.719 -->
00:45:01.280And, you know, our Trailblazer cohorts are about 25 and they run for 10 weeks.
00:45:01.440 -->
00:45:04.719So there's no way that we're going to trailblaze our way to every teacher.
00:45:04.960 -->
00:45:14.880Um our big bet is that you're not just teaching that teacher, you're building that alumni network and you're building these sort of models and case studies.
00:45:15.039 -->
00:45:19.840But I'm curious, like, what are the other sort of secrets to the success of a community of practice model?
00:45:20.079 -->
00:45:24.239And this could be you your advice to us, or just more sort of more broadly for like what the space needs.
00:45:24.559 -->
00:45:26.559Well, I mean, there's I think there's two pieces.
00:45:26.719 -->
00:45:31.199A community of practice is the spaces where you bring the people together, right?
00:45:31.360 -->
00:45:33.119To learn, to share all of that.
00:45:33.280 -->
00:45:35.360But it's it's net you have to have a network.
00:45:36.320 -->
00:45:36.639Right.
00:45:36.960 -->
00:45:38.800I mean, the network piece is really important.
00:45:39.039 -->
00:45:52.639So in this case, then I would say I love the idea of having like teacher leaders within schools who can try to model and share and sort of demystify these the technologies within their building.
00:45:52.800 -->
00:45:58.559But then you need to network the schools together and have the teachers from across the schools talk to each other.
00:45:58.800 -->
00:46:02.079And then maybe you even have something above that, right?
00:46:02.239 -->
00:46:06.639So I think your question about sort of how do we the scale question.
00:46:06.880 -->
00:46:13.199I think in my dissertation research, even though we weren't talking about AI, but we were talking about improvement, school districts.
00:46:13.360 -->
00:46:16.239School districts are a very important unit of change.
00:46:16.400 -->
00:46:23.119And I think, you know, like I know Gwynette is an example that's often cited, and I hope that there are others, and I'll be happy to cite the others once I learn about them.
00:46:23.280 -->
00:46:43.039But I think that if you have ownership at that district level and then you have activities like this happening at the schools, and then you're bringing them together to amplify it, that is a big unit of change that then becomes an example that you and I have both heard of, that other people are going to visit and learn from and get their documents and see how they're, you know, thinking about it and they're attracting funding.
00:46:43.119 -->
00:46:47.519And it, you know, like so I think the district is an important unit of change.
00:46:47.599 -->
00:46:49.199Of course, some districts are one school, right?
00:46:49.280 -->
00:46:52.159Like so districts are, you know, range hugely in size.
00:46:52.239 -->
00:46:59.119But if you're trying to get at numbers, and if you're trying to get at numbers of kids further from opportunity, then your urban districts are a good place to start.
00:46:59.280 -->
00:47:05.599You also obviously have rural districts as well with a lot of underserved young people, but it's a just a different kind of a challenge.
00:47:05.760 -->
00:47:10.159Uh and I know that you guys have done some work in rural and indigenous communities, so you know a little bit about that challenge.
00:47:10.239 -->
00:47:24.239And then I think what's happening now with the sort of devolution of, I mean, states have always held the sort of constitutional authority for education, but the interplay between states and the federal government in our current moment is interesting.
00:47:24.480 -->
00:47:26.559And I think that states are going to have a lot more.
00:47:26.639 -->
00:47:30.159I mean, it's tricky because we know in terms of policy, there's some barriers.
00:47:30.400 -->
00:47:36.239But in terms of practice, I think states are going to have a lot more ability to say, hey, this is what we are doing.
00:47:36.400 -->
00:47:38.000This is how we're taking on this challenge.
00:47:38.159 -->
00:47:40.480And that could set the stage for what the districts do.
00:47:40.639 -->
00:47:46.400So I think that, you know, to tackle the problem of change, I would say it's definitely not a school by school.
00:47:46.480 -->
00:47:48.559We cannot solve anything school by school, not happening.
00:47:48.719 -->
00:47:56.639So I believe school districts, because if there's a reinforcing infrastructure between what's happening in the school and what the district expects, then you're going to see more traction.
00:47:56.719 -->
00:48:10.480And then the moment we're in, as as challenging as it is in so many ways, I think presents an opportunity for states to be innovative and to put a stake in the ground around some of these issues in a way that could also stimulate philanthropic funding.
00:48:10.559 -->
00:48:12.159It could stimulate, you know, local policy.
00:48:12.239 -->
00:48:15.360But to sort of to your specific question, the community is important.
00:48:15.519 -->
00:48:16.639I need to feel like I'm not alone.
00:48:16.719 -->
00:48:17.679I'm not the only one doing this.
00:48:17.840 -->
00:48:28.559I need to know if I run into this problem, either someone I can ask that probably has used the same app or the same program that might be able to say how they fixed that problem or how they dealt with this privacy issue, or are you getting weird answers or whatever?
00:48:28.719 -->
00:48:32.159Like that is really important for the social aspect of learning.
00:48:32.320 -->
00:48:42.000And even in the research on the work that we did at Gates, it's not out yet, but it's going to suggest that the networking of schools together was actually a driver of change.
00:48:42.159 -->
00:48:44.159And I think that's going to be very important.
00:48:44.239 -->
00:48:46.000And I think that's very relevant here.
00:48:46.239 -->
00:48:55.039Yeah, this um this idea of networking schools together, it it's it's exciting to me because it's not that we have to build all these networks.
00:48:55.280 -->
00:49:00.559Like there are a lot, like there's so many, there's so much connectivity between schools.
00:49:00.719 -->
00:49:08.960And like our rural work being the example of like, you know, how do you reach, you know, all these like tiny, like sometimes 300 student districts?
00:49:09.519 -->
00:49:14.719And well, there are small and rural school associations in not every state, but I think most states.
00:49:14.960 -->
00:49:35.440There are myriad nonprofits that serve small and rural schools, whether that's state nonprofits or national nonprofits or regional nonprofits, who in some cases have spent decades building that network and they know exactly who the nodes are and who the who would you want to have in the room if you really wanted to get something that's gonna get some uh, you know, take some momentum out of a meeting.
00:49:35.599 -->
00:49:45.039Um, so I think part of our obsession is like, how do we build on top of all of that work that's been done as opposed to try to create something new?
00:49:45.679 -->
00:49:47.360Um what about like within a school?
00:49:47.440 -->
00:50:08.320Because like one of the other things that you've you've done in your career is you've actually like, I mean, you talked about your work at like high tech high, but the the the like the change management that happens within a school, like you know, the we see a lot of instances where there's lots of like like leaders at a school who are like, we want to use more AI or do AI stuff, or you know, there's lots of AI initiatives out there.
00:50:08.559 -->
00:50:16.320But you know, much of the time when we talk to folks, you know, why like what you know, why is this sort of slowed down, or like, you know, what are your biggest blockers?
00:50:16.400 -->
00:50:28.159And it's they're just not getting the buy-in, you know, from teachers, or they're or the teachers are worried or anxious, or like to your point, they're they hear their administration talking about, you know, you should use more AI to help you save time.
00:50:28.239 -->
00:50:35.440And what they're hearing is we are thinking about AI as a way for us to be able to invest less in our teacher workforce.
00:50:35.519 -->
00:50:41.280And so they're thinking, is my job now at risk once the AI is able to, you know, replace enough of my time?
00:50:41.519 -->
00:50:41.760Yes.
00:50:42.000 -->
00:50:44.480Even if the administration is absolutely not thinking that, right?
00:50:44.559 -->
00:50:48.079It's just like there's there's just a lot of anxieties that they have to work through.
00:50:48.320 -->
00:50:56.159Do you feel like the change management is is that is that getting enough attention in terms of like the problem statement about AI?
00:50:56.320 -->
00:51:12.320Because I I think I guess that this question is coming from a place where I feel like we spend so much time talking about the capabilities and the tools and the challenges with respect to how do we make sure that we have the policies in place so that teachers can safely deploy these tools to do X.
00:51:12.480 -->
00:51:16.880And there's this other question of like, how do you create the condition for like a culture of innovation, right?
00:51:17.119 -->
00:51:33.920Which is more amorphous and less, you know, it's it's it's not a it's not necessarily like one outcome that you can point to, but it feels feels pretty important if we're talking about like orienting schools not just for what we have now, but for, you know, whatever the world would look like in two years, let alone like five.
00:51:34.320 -->
00:51:38.639I mean, change management is about changing behaviors, right?
00:51:39.119 -->
00:51:42.719And behavior change is a result of learning.
00:51:43.440 -->
00:51:50.639So if you want to manage this change, then the people that you want to change their behavior need to learn.
00:51:51.039 -->
00:51:56.559Right now, how much time do teachers have to actually learn?
00:51:57.199 -->
00:51:57.519Right?
00:51:57.679 -->
00:52:05.280Like the US has one of the lowest investments in teacher time that is not non-instructional time.
00:52:05.599 -->
00:52:08.000You know, they get like maybe one period off to eat.
00:52:08.079 -->
00:52:08.719You know what I mean?
00:52:08.800 -->
00:52:16.480Like, you know, they might have some time for meeting, whatever, you know, maybe like my school, I know they're closed on next Tuesday because it's teacher PD day, but that's one day a quarter.
00:52:16.559 -->
00:52:17.199You know what I mean?
00:52:17.280 -->
00:52:23.119Like, so if we want to change to see that change in behavior, we have to let people learn.
00:52:23.280 -->
00:52:27.440And learning is social and learning takes time, and learning takes trial and error.
00:52:27.519 -->
00:52:33.280And learning goes better if you have someone helping you learn, whether it's a coach or a peer or a principal or whoever.
00:52:33.519 -->
00:52:39.039So I think the question is, are the structures in place to bring about the kinds of change that we want to see?
00:52:39.199 -->
00:52:42.159Is the entity designed to, does it have the slack?
00:52:42.239 -->
00:52:48.320Does it have the space and time and expertise that's needed for people to learn in order to change their behavior?
00:52:48.480 -->
00:52:50.159Is there any space for trial and error?
00:52:50.320 -->
00:52:53.039Like, what if I learn this thing and I kind of screw it up the first time?
00:52:53.199 -->
00:52:54.400Like, what's gonna happen to me?
00:52:54.559 -->
00:52:55.360Am I gonna get in trouble?
00:52:55.519 -->
00:52:56.480Am I gonna mess up my kids?
00:52:56.639 -->
00:52:57.760Are they gonna mess up their grades?
00:52:57.920 -->
00:52:59.519Like, what are the consequences of it?
00:52:59.679 -->
00:52:59.760Right.
00:52:59.920 -->
00:53:08.000Like, so I think that there's a structural problem in the way our schools are set up that makes learning really hard.
00:53:08.239 -->
00:53:11.440And if we don't learn, we're not gonna change.
00:53:11.679 -->
00:53:16.880And especially when it comes to using something that is so new, people need practice with it.
00:53:16.960 -->
00:53:19.360They need reps, they need to figure out.
00:53:19.440 -->
00:53:27.440I mean, it was, I mean, it's it's a different example, but even with project-based learning and high tech high, we are asking people to teach in a way they've never been taught.
00:53:27.840 -->
00:53:32.239And so we had to get them to understand and have some experiences of learning through projects.
00:53:32.320 -->
00:53:33.679So they were like, oh, this is really cool.
00:53:33.760 -->
00:53:34.320Okay, cool.
00:53:34.480 -->
00:53:41.360You know, and when you ask people, you know, a lot of times when they think back to your most impactful education experience in your whole life, it's almost always a project.
00:53:41.840 -->
00:53:42.159Right.
00:53:42.320 -->
00:53:47.920So, like, how do we expose people like to they use it in your own life?
00:53:48.079 -->
00:53:53.920You, you know, like just get them familiar and comfortable with the idea of how these things can actually be helpful.
00:53:54.000 -->
00:53:58.800And it's not about taking away your job or your husband's job, or it's not making it so you don't have to cook dinner anymore.
00:53:58.880 -->
00:54:02.719It's just trying to make it easier for you to cook dinner and know what to cook and have what you need in the kitchen.
00:54:02.880 -->
00:54:04.239Like that could help me, right?
00:54:04.400 -->
00:54:13.679So it people need to have, I think, the experiences that sort of like desensitize them around the fear of it to then think, oh, now I see how this can be helpful.
00:54:13.840 -->
00:54:14.559Now I see.
00:54:14.800 -->
00:54:20.320And sometimes having a peer who is successfully using it can be a great way to see.
00:54:20.400 -->
00:54:25.199You're doing it with my kids in our school with our constraints, and you're doing these cool things.
00:54:25.360 -->
00:54:26.000I want to try it.
00:54:26.239 -->
00:54:30.400So I just I think the change management problem is really a learning problem.
00:54:30.719 -->
00:54:39.199And we need to think about how to create opportunities for learning in a very constrained environment that is not really set up for adult learning very effectively.
00:54:40.159 -->
00:54:43.920Yeah, it's funny because this is like you start to get to how interconnected all of this is.
00:54:44.079 -->
00:54:44.239Yes.
00:54:44.400 -->
00:54:51.039With with I think learning at the center, because it's, you know, one of the one of the things you mentioned is it's really hard to get, you know, there's only like one teacher PD day per quarter.
00:54:51.199 -->
00:54:51.280Right.
00:54:51.440 -->
00:54:55.920And we we did work with Prince George's County and we we like we had funding for three years.
00:54:56.000 -->
00:54:59.840We had like, you know, buying from the superintendent and like all these folks on leadership.
00:55:00.000 -->
00:55:06.400We did massive training with like you know, hundreds of teachers over the summer, and they were meeting with their team to schedule the next training.
00:55:06.480 -->
00:55:08.960We were like, oh, we were thinking maybe it's like August or you know, September.
00:55:09.039 -->
00:55:11.119And they were like, oh, we were thinking March.
00:55:11.440 -->
00:55:12.159We're like March.
00:55:12.320 -->
00:55:13.199Like that's no, no.
00:55:13.280 -->
00:55:16.239We were like, we were like, what we were thinking maybe every other month, if not every month.
00:55:16.400 -->
00:55:26.639And they were like, no, like we yes, we have these training days, but we have a teacher shortage, which means we have a substitute teacher shortage, which means we have fewer in-service days that we can take.
00:55:26.800 -->
00:55:30.559And by the way, we have all this compliance of this compulsory training that has to get in.
00:55:31.519 -->
00:55:34.960And so we were fighting initially for like one hour out of that training.
00:55:35.039 -->
00:55:41.920And it led us to this realization that, you know, that working within just sort of the confines of that system wouldn't be enough.
00:55:42.000 -->
00:55:48.800And we had to sort of think about how do we push towards sort of that, towards that culture of innovation and the and and those learning opportunities.
00:55:48.960 -->
00:56:01.920And you're only going to convince the administrators by, you know, getting some teachers who were who were making the case for the learning themselves, as opposed to, you know, us as outsiders coming in and saying this would be helpful, which is what worked.
00:56:02.000 -->
00:56:04.800And we've trained like, I think, over 3,000 teachers now in PGCPS.
00:56:04.960 -->
00:56:12.000I don't know if you you've ever met Jeff Riley, who was the chancellor, formerly the chancellor of the Massachusetts Department of Education.
00:56:12.559 -->
00:56:14.239And we went down the rabbit hole.
00:56:14.320 -->
00:56:15.440We were talking about the MISPAP.
00:56:15.599 -->
00:56:17.280Are you familiar with the MISPA Maryland?
00:56:17.360 -->
00:56:23.039Uh it was like the most famous standardized test because it was like the one standardized test that students actually looked forward to taking.
00:56:23.440 -->
00:56:23.679Interesting.
00:56:23.920 -->
00:56:27.760Because it involved all these group projects and it was uh had a lot of project-based learning.
00:56:27.840 -->
00:56:31.280It was, it was measuring critical thinking and like collaboration skills.
00:56:31.440 -->
00:56:39.599And it ran like, I think, from like the mid 90s to 2002, and it was a casualty of No Child Left Behind because it didn't provide student level data.
00:56:39.760 -->
00:56:41.280It only provided at the school level.
00:56:41.440 -->
00:56:44.719And it was deemed like, well, that's just not good enough data for us to use.
00:56:45.039 -->
00:56:48.880And and so that was just as a side, I just think that was like fascinating.
00:56:49.039 -->
00:56:56.239It's not that we can't measure critical thinking or we can't measure, you know, like project-based learning or like the the durable skills that come from project-based learning.
00:56:56.320 -->
00:57:00.639It's just it requires like a bit of a change in sort of like aperture.
00:57:00.960 -->
00:57:08.719Um, but the other thing he said is that because you were talking about the fact that, well, I think only 18% of teachers today would recommend the profession to someone else.
00:57:09.039 -->
00:57:12.000So down from like that low 60s, yeah, not too long ago.
00:57:12.159 -->
00:57:12.480Yeah.
00:57:12.639 -->
00:57:21.039And one thing that Jeff said is, well, you know, part of like when I was a teacher, one of the best things of being a teacher was, you know, the fact that we got to learn together.
00:57:21.119 -->
00:57:25.039And we're there was so much more of an emphasis on, you know, shared learning.
00:57:25.119 -->
00:57:30.159And like professional development wasn't this sort of boring like compliance exercise.
00:57:30.320 -->
00:57:33.280It was like truly like it was a chance for us to advance our profession.
00:57:33.519 -->
00:57:35.760And so it it's sort of interesting.
00:57:35.920 -->
00:57:42.880Like, if we can nail the like like getting learning right ultimately is going to make teaching more fun, yeah.
00:57:43.119 -->
00:57:47.039If it's truly learning and not just like, here's a tool that we want you to use.
00:57:47.280 -->
00:57:57.840And creating a the ability, like creating the infrastructure to learn is an answer to the question of, well, what happens if the technology looks completely different in two years?
00:57:58.159 -->
00:58:03.360Because then you lean back on your learning infrastructure that you've built as opposed to to update.
00:58:03.599 -->
00:58:04.880Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:58:05.039 -->
00:58:05.360Exactly.
00:58:05.519 -->
00:58:14.639I mean, I like that some of the work that's happening, like with the let's say you're your district, you know, you've a list of math or whatever, you know, you have a curriculum that you write.
00:58:14.800 -->
00:58:16.159How do we help you use this better?
00:58:16.320 -->
00:58:17.840How do we help you understand this?
00:58:18.000 -->
00:58:20.000How do we help you make it make sense to your students?
00:58:20.079 -->
00:58:22.400How do we help you create, you know, activity, whatever?
00:58:22.480 -->
00:58:27.280Like, I think that, yeah, like when teachers can see that, this is something I kind of have to do.
00:58:27.440 -->
00:58:31.920So, how do you how do we make it better and give me space to learn that and learn that with other educators?
00:58:32.079 -->
00:58:36.400Like that kind of approach, I feel like that that's the type of thing that can have some traction.
00:58:36.480 -->
00:58:37.760It's gonna take some resources.
00:58:38.079 -->
00:58:53.360Do you feel like like philanthropy is talking and thinking about, you know, like teacher capacity and like professional development and you know, communities of practice and like change management and you know, all these things.
00:58:54.239 -->
00:58:56.639Is it like at the top of the list of priorities?
00:58:56.800 -->
00:59:03.840Is it you know, like how does it sort of compare to, you know, or is it even part of the conversation around AI?
00:59:04.000 -->
00:59:05.039Because they're obviously investing.
00:59:05.199 -->
00:59:07.920I mean, like there are no doubt, like lots of funders do invest in those things.
00:59:08.639 -->
00:59:11.199What I for me, sometimes it's not always the same person, though.
00:59:11.280 -->
00:59:13.280You're sometimes you're talking to the person on the AI team.
00:59:13.360 -->
00:59:13.519Yeah.
00:59:13.679 -->
00:59:18.480And they're like, oh, you should talk to so-and-so on the like K-12, you know, teacher capacity team.
00:59:18.559 -->
00:59:26.400And it's like, aren't those the same, like those are the same to me, but I like uh how do I answer this question?
00:59:26.559 -->
00:59:41.199Uh uh diplomatically, I would say that I think that sometimes the folks who are proponents of technology and want to see more of that technology in schools are not people who understand how schools actually work.
00:59:41.440 -->
01:00:00.719And so either those functions are very separate, the tech and tech adoption and the and the actual like work of schools and teacher learning, or the tech adoption overshadows the uh there's kind of almost an assumption if we build it, they will learn it and they will come, you know, and it's like, no, it needs to be also attended to.
01:00:00.880 -->
01:00:05.280And so I feel like we're starting to crack that nut a little bit with the like curriculum.
01:00:05.360 -->
01:00:10.320Like people are understanding if we want to do high-quality curriculum, we have to pair it with learning.
01:00:10.480 -->
01:00:12.000It's not just going to implement itself, right?
01:00:12.079 -->
01:00:24.320Like I so I feel like we're seeing some shifts, but I also see this like retrenchment, and it's showing up like in data that there's a step back from K-12 investment.
01:00:24.639 -->
01:00:40.719Um, that either folks are going more into the technology and stepping away from like the actual like work of teachers and students, which is a concern in its own right, or they're going, oh, well, we need to actually not just be thinking about schools, we need to be thinking about like housing and healthcare.
01:00:40.800 -->
01:00:43.199And and and I'm like, well, yes, that's true, right?
01:00:43.599 -->
01:00:46.800Kids don't live in schools, kids live in communities and they need all those things.
01:00:46.960 -->
01:00:55.679But that doesn't mean that we should, it's it shouldn't be a zero-sum game where because we now care about these other things, we care about less about sort of like K-12 than what's happening educationally.
01:00:55.920 -->
01:01:07.760I feel like that sort of core technology of schools to teach our student content is losing market share in philanthropy right now, at a time when actually it is really important that it not, and it makes me nervous.
01:01:08.000 -->
01:01:08.960It makes me really nervous.
01:01:09.119 -->
01:01:09.280Yeah.
01:01:09.360 -->
01:01:16.159Um, I feel like oh, sometimes like a Trojan horse because we're the AI education project, and we don't we're not here to help you implement AI tools.
01:01:16.400 -->
01:01:19.039I'm gonna change my tune on that because I think we are getting closer to that.
01:01:19.119 -->
01:01:25.119But it's more about we're here to help you do, you know, make sure that you are implementing them in a way that is teacher-centered and advancing on these things.
01:01:25.280 -->
01:01:37.280But most of our work is, you know, like high-quality teaching and learning practices that happen in core subjects, and you're really getting into, you know, building durable skills and you know, career connected learning.
01:01:37.360 -->
01:01:44.639And the more people dig into our work, they're like, this is like none of this is terribly new or innovative, which is almost by design, right?
01:01:44.719 -->
01:01:53.360Like, actually, we like like our goal is not to go into schools and say we were we're here to revolutionize your district, because that isn't they have lots of disruption happening to them.
01:01:53.519 -->
01:01:53.920Yes.
01:01:54.079 -->
01:01:57.119Like that, like disruption is not the thing that gets them excited.
01:01:57.360 -->
01:02:11.599But but uh the we I literally have gotten counseled and they said, like, well, look, uh, I don't hate it was this was like a bigger consultancy, but you know, literally like sort of like verbatim, they were like, we this is a really tough, like your your your angle is really tough.
01:02:11.679 -->
01:02:18.960Like systems change and school transformation, uh, it's just losing a lot of people are not excited about it anymore.
01:02:19.199 -->
01:02:31.920Like funders spent you know a long time investing in it, feel like a lot of them feel like they haven't really seen you know a ton of you know outcomes from all that investment, and it just feels intractable.
01:02:32.079 -->
01:02:43.840And I worry about this, like the idea that, well, maybe AI is the silver bullet that will allow us to sort of like skip past all of that and just you know use this technology to solve all the things.
01:02:44.400 -->
01:03:02.000And I think most smart people like will recognize that it isn't, but I suspect that there's almost like maybe it's others in the organization or you know, I I don't but maybe is that like a misplaced concern that because I know funders are sufficient like the folks I've talked to are do not really think it's a silver bullet.
01:03:02.079 -->
01:03:05.199Like I think they're actually like appropriately skeptical.
01:03:05.440 -->
01:03:10.239But you go to these conferences and it kind of does feel like it's you know, yeah.
01:03:10.639 -->
01:03:15.440Well, who's doing the selling and who's who's doing the talking, you know, at those in those spaces, right?
01:03:15.760 -->
01:03:16.719Are we talking to educators?
01:03:16.800 -->
01:03:17.840Are we talking to young people?
01:03:18.000 -->
01:03:20.639I mean, I think young people know, you know, I have a young person, right?
01:03:20.719 -->
01:03:21.760I have a 13-year-old.
01:03:21.920 -->
01:03:24.480Young people know that this is part of their future.
01:03:24.800 -->
01:03:31.840And I think they want to understand it and they want to have agency as to whether or not they use it.
01:03:32.079 -->
01:03:34.079So it's it's not gonna go away.
01:03:34.239 -->
01:03:35.679I just think it's a tool.
01:03:35.840 -->
01:03:37.360Chalkboards were a tool.
01:03:37.840 -->
01:03:39.280Laptops are a tool.
01:03:39.920 -->
01:03:48.480They're a t it's a it's a tool, and it's it's uh it's a set of very powerful tools and very evolutionary tools because like you can we you and I created a tool at the beginning of this call.
01:03:48.639 -->
01:03:51.760Like, you know, like you can, you know, it's not it's not a static tool, right?
01:03:51.840 -->
01:03:58.239It's it's a dynamic tool, which is different than than most of the tools that have been introduced that are much more static in nature.
01:03:58.480 -->
01:04:02.239So it's exciting, but you there is no silver bullet for sure.
01:04:02.400 -->
01:04:03.119We know this.
01:04:03.440 -->
01:04:13.440And I think if the more that we see it as a tool versus a solution, I think the better off we might be because solutions have been pitched to teachers for a long time, and none of them have been solutions.
01:04:13.519 -->
01:04:14.159You know what I mean?
01:04:14.239 -->
01:04:19.920It's a tool that helps you do things better, helps advance what you your goals for your student, you know.
01:04:20.000 -->
01:04:23.519Like I just again, it's that user-centered view.
01:04:23.840 -->
01:04:26.960And I think that those users are teachers and students.
01:04:27.119 -->
01:04:29.119You know, I think this is not just an adult game.
01:04:29.360 -->
01:04:36.400Like you said, there's ways in which the kids are probably w way out ahead of the teachers on some of this, depending on their access, depending on their savviness.
01:04:36.559 -->
01:04:42.880So, how are we thinking about you know, ensuring that it is being seen as a tool and not an answer?
01:04:44.719 -->
01:04:47.599It's I have a I have to go.
01:04:48.239 -->
01:04:49.760Well, thank you so much for sticking with us.
