speaker-0: What am I role modeling today? Perhaps a question that most of us think is reserved only for the senior most leaders. My guest today is gonna convince you otherwise. Ellie Potter was born in Cold War Bulgaria. She came to the US with just two suitcases. Growing up, she learned English listening to the Beatles. Since then, she has become one of the most respected CIOs of the Silicon Valley. She's advised more than 125 organizations on their tech strategy and execution. Ellie has coined a term that I believe the world desperately needed: role modelship. She's also written a book with the same title. Her whole philosophy is: AI cannot be what AI cannot see. So it is absolutely every single person's responsibility. To ensure that they are role modeling the right behaviors so the systems that we are training in our lifetimes get trained with the right moral compass. On this episode, we unpack the five disciplines of role modelship wrapped around five very relevant and real case studies. Perhaps there's one that you're dealing with right now. This is AIsms, human rhythms in a synthetic world. Welcome to AI isms. I am so excited to have you on this show. I think I met you just a few weeks back, maybe four or five weeks back, and ever since I've been just trying to manifest in my head why am I gonna have Ellie on my show? Thank you so much for being here.
speaker-1: Thank you, thank you. Super excited to be here.
speaker-0: Ellie, I'm gonna get right into it. I feel like role modelship is giving vocabulary to something that the world desperately needed. Tell us the origin story of role modelship and where the concept came to you and tell us a little bit about your book.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. So I came to this country with ⁓ two suitcases in a dream. I learned English from the Beatles. So one of my passions is making up new words. And so early in my career in my life, my husband used to correct my English to make sure that the words I say are the correct words. And there's still expressions I don't know. But through this passion about language, I always wondered about the leadership literature because there's a lot of focus on how to be a leader, and there's very little emphasis on how to be the example of what you want people to replicate in the world. And so that's kind of this idea behind role modelship. And the spark really happened at an event when I observed ⁓ complete act of kindness. You know, two individuals met, they formed a company, became a great partnership. I mean it was one of those chance event and meetings and it really was super inspiring. So you never know what the universe is gonna give you.
speaker-0: I actually want to anchor to just the deep thought that you went through, like the process of very deep thinking that you came through to really like as I turn the pages, there's balls after balls of wisdom. There's, you know, the moment where multiple things connect and you have an insight. I felt like you had so many moments of insight and the book. So to me, what was most fascinating was of course knowing your history and who you are and then coming through this journey, but then presenting to the world these really beautiful insights. I'm gonna read one out that I loved and you said ⁓ managers direct reports, leaders inspire followers. But role models engineer identity and magnify the future. I mean, we use some of those words so interchangeably in that depth of thinking and the calibration that you bring in that sentence. I was like, I've been hit by lightning. So help me, help me explain the difference with each of those across each of those words.
speaker-1: Yeah, so the process is all about pattern recognition and synthesis. So I've been a leader In a manager for many, many years. And I I want to say the way you create these books is through living the life, living the experience. So it's not like, you know, the muse gave me some inspiration, obviously, but it's it's that lived experience. ⁓ so I always try to because I coach a lot of companies, a lot of leaders, I always try to explain things to people that they can immediately do something about. And so we ask people in interview questions. It's a typical question, what's the difference between a leader and a manager? And even senior executives can't really describe that. So the way I explain it is if you think of leaders as the visionaries, the strategy, and they really focus on the why. Why we do something and then what we do. So the why and the what. And then the managers come in and they focus on the how and the when. Well what's the gap?
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: The gap is the who. And that's where this concept of identity engineering, and I'm not talking about the technical terms of identity management. I'm talking about the human identity engineering. So who does that? There's some overlaps. Managers do a little bit of that, leaders do a little bit of that. But it's really the role models because what they give you is you look up to them and you say, I want to be like you. So they help you with your identity. And they're kinda the north star of what great looks like and what possibilities out there. And you you know, in storytelling people hear the story of if they can do it, I can do it. Yeah. And they become the bright light that everybody wants to follow.
speaker-0: ⁓ I have so many I I feel like I could completely take this podcast off track and start telling you stories about my role models and hearing about yours. But I'm actually gonna move us along and bring us right back to today, the age of AI. ⁓ I loved the distinction that you provided and the criticality of the who. ⁓ It's a really big question around identity as you think about the age of AI. you know, just having conversations with friends or even clients that are CXOs, thinking of a future where a pretty significant component of your current workforce could be digital colleagues. ⁓ and then, you know, looking at workflows which are stitched end to end, a lot of the components around ⁓ The what, the how can be codified, but the who really can't be. And I think another one of those lightning moments reading ⁓ reading the pages of your book, you say AI can't be what it can't see. And it you know, I think the way you described it, there is no way to codify who. I mean it can copy the voice, but it cannot copy or emulate your value system. as as someone who actually does shape identity and future. So tell us a little bit about how are you thinking about role modelship in the age of AI.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. It's a really big one. So I'll break it down by The idea of AI can't be what AI can't see came from a s very similar expression which I didn't come up with. Psychologists did, which is you can't be what you can't see, which is in STEM, you know, when you have shortages of certain types of humans in certain, you know, technology, people don't know what to aspire to. Same thing is true with AI. I mean we tend to think of AI as code and machine learning models and we tend to think about the technology but But that's because we can understand machine learning models and code. What AI really is, it's a very complex set of human habits and human relationships and human values. Values are the foundation of everything. But because we can't measure that, it's so hard for us to wrap our head around it. We kind of park it to the side. And AI learns and unlearns just like we do. So there's lots of studies that show that if you're rude to AI, it's rude back to you. There's examples of, you know, mental health ⁓ recommendations given by AI that are terrible. I mean, it could lead a human to end their life. So it's it's very dangerous to think of AI as this independent thing. It's really a mirror. And if you think about it, it's a mirror of our past lives, if it's been trained on the last five years of data. And it's a mirror of what's out there on the internet. So it's the good and the bad and the ugly, all of it.
speaker-0: Okay. So at this point I think this is a cliffhanger for us to start introducing the concepts that you had. I think you have five disciplines in the book that make up role modelship. Yes. Exactly to unpack that secret sauce that we talked about. You have stewardship, fellowship, mentorship, leadership, and sponsorship.
speaker-1: Yes, right?
speaker-0: Okay, so at this point in the pod, Ellie, what I tend to do is I put you in the hot seat and maybe we pick up scenarios that you're you're able to have a moment to coach our audiences on how might they think about codifying the right kind of role modelship. So let's start with stewardship. let's take a scenario where I am the product manager at an AI company. And we are just rolling out a new hiring system. And the hiring system has been trained on our company's past promotion and hiring data. And as I'm looking at it, I can see that a lot of the people that sat in the lower ratings could potentially be minority communities.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: ⁓ and because this is years and years of data, there's a ton of bias that's getting fed into ⁓ what is gonna be our new recruiting brain because it's a cost-cutting initiative for our company. Of course, we're talking about experience, but cost is a very big part of it. ⁓ my VP wants us to move fast and quickly adopt the platform and go, go, go. But as a steward of the people, Mm. Even though I'm just a middle manager who's been asked to program manage this program, I'm really struggling. What should I do?
speaker-1: Yeah. All of these scenarios I know you're gonna give me are gonna be tough. The quick answer to that is you have to be able to provide feedback. So in the book I have a framework, it's called the sober framework, which is situation, observation, benefits of pivoting to something else, examples of what greatness looks like and then results. Or you can think of it as working backwards from obviously you don't want these results. or you wouldn't be concerned. What are great results that you want to see? And then how do you communicate that? And the communication is tricky because that's where human relationships come in. So if you have a great relationship with the people you're talking to, you may be able to ⁓ bring this up in a meeting. It also depends on the culture of of the company. If if the culture is not conducive to this being brought up in a meeting, you bring it up in a one on one. The point is you don't stay silent because stewardship is about owning not just your character and your results, but also living the world better than you found it. And you have a responsibility to speak up.
speaker-0: ⁓ and it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage to be a steward. And I think ⁓ as much as this is about role modelship, I felt that it's also like I felt braver when I see someone in the corner of the room that's going to back me up when I say something that no one wants to hear. So
speaker-1: Yeah. Well the biggest change with AI is all of these things that we used to consider DEI initiatives. Yeah. They're no longer DEI initiatives. They're now products. Yeah. And it's a product that all of us are gonna live with. So anything related to what people used to call them soft skills. ⁓ yeah, this is the department of HR. Yeah. It's no longer that. It's part of the product and part of what our future world is gonna look like.
speaker-0: Okay. All right. Case number two. I'm gonna bring you to fellowship. I have to tell you, Ellie, one of my other episodes I did was with ⁓ with Liz Fosslane. ⁓ I don't know if you met her the other day, but ⁓ it was all about uncertainty and managing uncertainty. So this one is very related around fellowship. So I'm a mid-career engineer. And we've been told that the entire product development lifecycle is going to be completely reimagined using AI. Half my colleagues are very excited because they've been playing with co you know Claude Code and Cursor and Vercel and whatnot on their weekends. The other half is really worried because this is basically disrupting. things that we used to do by hand, you know, R UI UX engineers, etc. Like really, really struggling. ⁓ so it's just creating more of a rift across us as a team and us as a community. And we're not coming together to talk about how each of us is feeling. But what I see is that we are getting divided into these two factions. Yes. What can I do as an observer of this situation to Not let an EI situation create this rift and bind us back into a community.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. So fellowship is about creating tables for collaboration for everybody and helping each other out. And AI is serving as this basically fork in the road. And humanity is forking on multiple levels. So one is this technology divide of am I gonna use AI or not? The other one is gonna be actually bigger, which is am I gonna be a creator versus a consumer? And I think most people don't even realize that if they don't use AI, they are opting out of being a creator. And I don't mean like writer or an artist. I mean like you create your own business, you create your own destiny, you create your own future versus you're waiting for somebody else to do it and you're just watching and consuming. Every time I coach somebody, when I position it that way, it immediately clicks. Because it's not a technological choice. It's a future destiny choice. So if the leader is not creating this environment or tables for collaboration, anybody can do it because fellowship and role modelship is not about the title. You don't have to have authority. You just pull people together, super informal. Let's have lunch, let's have a chat. How do we feel about this? And then as a team, because there's strength in numbers, they can go together to leadership and say, Hey, we have some ideas of what we would like to see. Can we work on this together? Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ can you adopt me as one of your mentees? Absolutely.
speaker-1: Absolutely, I'm happy to help, but you don't need it.
speaker-0: Like, ⁓ my god, this is gonna get me out of bed at four and start coding. okay, so moving moving to the next one, I really do like those first two around stewardship and fellowship, and and the fact that it's not about your role, it's not about your title, but it's your state of being, it's what you stand for, and anyone can start to demonstrate those behaviors so that the world around us learns it. Okay. Mentorship and s and sponsorship. I I love the distinction between these two. ⁓ so I am the VP of a product company and we take mentorship very seriously. And we're just rolling out a new product, AI-powered product, that matches mentors and mentees. And it shows similarity in our career paths and it shows Similarity and maybe some of our personality traits. If you know there's our our system has strengths training, ⁓ our strengths data, etc. It's matching based on all of those factors, and it's doing a really good job of matching mentors and mentees. What it's not doing though is doing anything about sponsorship.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: basically guide the mentor on how to coach someone and the mentee to ask the right questions and get the best out of the mentorship experience. What the product doesn't do is guide the mentor on who deserves to be sponsored, which is a very, very big distinction. So how might we be more intentional about sponsorship in addition to mentorship, especially when it comes to product led? programs.
speaker-1: Yeah, that use case is really tough because the gap between mentorship and sponsorship is really big. It's a much bigger gap than managers and leaders, for example. And the reason for that is mentorship is more about knowledge transfer, which now you can get it from AI. There are very few mentors out there that encourage their mentees to be better than them, which is the overlap with sponsorship, is when a mentor says, you know what you can have a future much brighter than me and I will help you. So that's kind of the overlap. Sponsorship is when somebody puts their name and their reputation and their relationship with everybody else on the line to say this person should be in this room. And it typically happens when the individual is not in the room. And brand, people's brands are really established when they're not in the room and somebody is speaking about them. So not everybody is willing to do that. It's a question of risk. And within a company it's actually easier. It's harder when you think about cross companies and large events, you know, in the industry and even cross industry. Because that capital of your brand and your reputation could be impacted by something as simple as the individual data recommended didn't follow through on something. Right? Let alone if they un are unethical or they commit a crime or 'cause you don't know how far they can take it.
speaker-0: I ⁓ it's like saying that the sponsor uses a reputational chip, like it's my reputation. I'm putting my reputation's chip on the line to support this individual. any ⁓ any guidance, just a second question on that one, Ellie, on how might organizations think about codifying more sponsorship-like behaviors across their leaders?
speaker-1: I d what I've seen work is really pairing the two. So anytime I've been a sponsor to somebody, I didn't just sponsor them and let them loose because again they reflect on me. I continue to mentor them through the process. So if I've sponsored somebody for a job, I'll check in. If they're not very good with follow through, I'll check in and say, Hey, how's it going? Do you wanna have a quick conversation? Because my job is to make them successful. Right? I think the challenge is companies think of these two Disciplines is completely independent when they're not. And if companies really took a little bit more time because the matching process in mentorship programs is not reputational based. You get a complete stranger, there can be even no chemistry, right? In sponsorship, chemistry is super important. And it's not just aligning on your values, it's aligning on where you are in your current life. And what your current priorities are. And sometimes it's as simple as, you know, do you have a similar hobby or do you have kids? It's so much more than just work. Yeah. Yeah. That these programs that are just based on a few parameters can't really capture it.
speaker-0: I th I couldn't agree more. It's really personal. It's like I am committed to the cause because it's my choice to sponsor someone. I hear you. Okay. Last one. Last one. I promise this is last one. ⁓ leadership. Mm-hmm. And I'm the CEO of a company and my organization is going through this really major AI transformation. We're pushing really hard to Bring down costs and drive growth and you know deliver on the promise of AI. And I was presenting at a recent town hall and a fairly young employee raised her hand and asked me, This is all great, but what are you doing personally to learn AI and and and you know adopt it in your own life? And I didn't have a really good answer. And I felt in that moment that I was really exposed as a leader. how should I think about this situation and what AI is doing to my leadership?
speaker-1: Yeah, it took a lot of courage for that person to ask, especially, you know, in a room full of people. It's a lot of courage. It gives you two things. So first it gives you a mirror. So that question serves as the mirror to say, am I really exemplifying what I'm describing? It kind of shows you the gap between strategy and actions, or between words and actions. And I love it because it's a data point, right? So you have multiple paths from there. One is it's possible that you're doing all the things that you're saying you're doing with AI and you just haven't shared that yet. That's the easiest way. You just need to do a little bit more sharing. Yeah. Because people are not gonna sit with you and watch you what you do. They don't know that you do it on the plane or you do it when you know you take your kids to soccer practice. Whenever it is that you're learning AI. The bigger gap is when you're not doing anything. And you're just actually setting the vision and the strategy and that's a harder gap to fill, you have to dedicate time. And you have to, as a CEO, you have a tremendous responsibility, most executives know this, to be the role model because change management doesn't happen if the sponsors and the leaders don't show the change. And it's not just AI. I mean it could you could be implementing a new phone system, a new CRM system. It doesn't really matter what you're implementing. If you're not using it and you're not demonstrating what great looks like, you can't expect people to adopt a change.
speaker-0: And I I just to add to that, Ellie, the big thing I'm seeing is that adopting AI is a little bit different from adopt adopting technology because tech is it's the same look and feel for everybody. But AI mixed with our consciousness could produce its own unique output, right? And so I feel like the metacognition needed for leaders to actually go in and play with it and see what it does and see what it produces honestly gives them conviction to lead an AI based programme. Otherwise it's just a business case. Yes. It's not it's not a full change. I couldn't agree more.
speaker-1: Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I think it takes a lot more effort. So the upfront kind of cost is higher. But the other thing, there's a lot of studies now that it's making people actually dumber. So prolonged use of AI, you're gonna stop thinking. And there's a generation I have teenagers, I tell ⁓ their brain is so fragmented. TikTok and everything, you know, with the tiny little slices of time that they have no focus to sit down and and write a book like this. Because they saw me going through this journey of the ten whiteboards and they're like, Wow, how do you have the patience to to do this work for like endless amount of time? My brain is wired differently. I'm not fragmented to the two milliseconds.
speaker-0: Clearly this is a conversation at every dinner table. But ⁓ the conversation my boys and I have is what is a good use of AI and what is not. Like if you are to write an essay, you need to do the first draft. You need to think about it and apply. And this needs to be human led. But if you're researching, you know, which sports camp to get to, sure. Use AI to you know as as AI first. So we talk a lot about AI first versus human first. Okay. All right. Four amazing case studies across your five dimensions. ⁓ let's see if you can harvest the distilled inside celly, which I call AI isms. ⁓ let's maybe break it into two. what would your top sort of advice or AISMs be for recipients of AI. So I work in a company, I'm receiving what my leadership is driving in terms of AI programs and policies, etc. How can I be a better role model?
speaker-1: Yeah, I would say be braver because this is all about change. And Abda, the stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. The faster you can move through those phases to actually experiment and be super comfortable in the messy middle because everybody is experimenting with everything right now. That's the biggest advice. Because if you're staying on the sidelines, you're not wiring your brain. You're not wiring other humans and AI to be role models. And you're gonna be left behind because people will will adopt that. ⁓ the other thing, as we mentioned a little bit earlier, is diversity is no longer an HR problem, it's a product problem. So become the steward of data that is not biased, and also kind of check your biases as you're working with AI because everybody's so focused on efficiency. It's not about efficiency, it's about is I making the world better for the next generation of humans.
speaker-0: That was a mic drop moment right there. Super well said, Ellie. Okay, let's flip it. And if I am the leadership of a company that is coming through NEI journey and we're going, going, going, ⁓ what can I do as the leader to be a better role model in the age of AI?
speaker-1: I think the biggest epiphany that leaders that went through the journey of the book with me was they realized how much influence they had on other people and how influenceable they were themselves. So when they realized that they started asking the question of what am I role modeling today? What am I role modeling today? And when you do that, your behavior will change with humans and with AI. And it sounds really simple, it's really hard to do because they already have a full plate, there's so many things going on. But AI is watching. Humans have been watching all along. Now AI is watching too.
speaker-0: Just on that note, ⁓ you reminded me just talking about the leaders that you spoke with. ⁓ there are more than 200 stories about role modelship. My gosh, I'd love to be a fly on the wall or on on the ten whiteboards rather, ⁓ to learn learn a little bit more. But Ali, which was one of those stories from the book that ⁓ really surprised you?
speaker-1: It wasn't actually the stories in the book because the book was around patterns and really validating that this concept is gonna resonate and that it makes sense for leaders to adopt it. It was the stories after the book. So I had one five year old that attended with his parents one of the book signing events and on the weekend after asked his parents what is a role model? Am I a role model? I was very surprised. I did not expect five year olds to even understand what I'm talking about.
speaker-0: I think your job is done. If your book made one five year old imagine that early in their life to think about, am I a role model? I I mean honestly, if I have to summarize, right, everything that you've said around being brave, around is AI gonna make the world a better place? You know, everything that you've said in your AI isms at the end of the day is us asking ourselves. Am I a role model? What have I done today to be a role model? So if a five-year-old can get it, everybody can everybody can get it. That is so cute, but also so insightful that even a five-year-old can be influenced to make the world a better and that surprised me. I did not think you'll go there. I thought you'll tell me about some CEO somewhere, but my god, that is so refreshing. Okay.
speaker-1: Biggest surprise.
speaker-0: I'm gonna end on a ⁓ on a personal note. ⁓ of course, before that, before I go away from the book, I do want to say to my audience over here that it's fascinating, it's a beautiful book. Grab it, it's behind Ellie, it's right next to me as well. I have enjoyed it. It's not ⁓ it's not something you're gonna regret reading. Okay, ending on a personal note, ⁓ Ellie, and I think you touched on this a little bit when you talked about the concept of role modelship, but You grew up in Cold War Bulgaria. You learned English from the Beatles, like you said, and we already ⁓ talked about your favorite song, let it be. You arrived in the US with two suitcases and built a career advising 150 companies across Silicon Valley. ⁓ along the way, you found your voice in a language that wasn't your first, and it's something you and I bonded on ⁓ very deeply. What does finding your voice mean to you now in the age of the
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a really great question. So as soon as AI hit the market, it hit me very differently because I've always struggled to learn English. And I've always had feedback from family and friends. ⁓ you're not using the right word or you're not pronouncing the right word. So language is something I'm never gonna be great at. And now to have the entire future of humanity be based on words. And I know firsthand how difficult it is to pick the right words. And words are super ambiguous and given the wrong context can be interpreted very differently. I had to do something about that. And so I spend a lot of time thinking about the future of words. And it sounds a little bit too in the weeds, but it's not. around role modelship. And I think it only takes a foreigner to come up with a word like that. Because I think everybody else is just so comfortable with their language that their brain is almost it you know, it has to happen by mistake to to see fruition. Does that make sense?
speaker-0: It does. It's not the word, but it's the thought behind the word. Yes. ⁓ is what you're describing. And I think it's easier to find vocabulary for those thoughts behind the words because you can make up your own words now. ⁓ beautifully, beautifully said. Ellie, that's a wrap. Thank you so much for this time. And you know, I enjoyed meeting you when we did meet. I loved our conversation after that, but I think as I'm Listening to your ⁓ everything that you said in the last whatever thirty five, forty minutes. ⁓ I think the world is going to be a better place because of people like you. So thank you. Thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for sharing all those pearls of wisdom. And I'm gonna listen to the Beatles tonight.
speaker-1: Well thank you for being an amazing sponsor because it takes people like you to amplify diverse voices and to show the world that it's the voices that we find that are gonna take us forward. Because imagine if people are afraid to speak up, then what is the world gonna be? We don't want that. We want to inspire people to be role models.
speaker-0: ⁓ appreciate it so much, Ellie. Thank you.
speaker-1: Thank you, thank you.
speaker-0: That was the magical Ellie Potter. What were your takeaways from that episode? For me, there was one major one and it's profound. It is about role modelship, and there's probably nothing more important than it in this moment. Anytime you interact with AI, every prompt, every meeting where a note taker is capturing what you're saying, every such moment that you're interacting with AI. It is our responsibility to truly role model the behaviors that we want our future generations to learn. Because guess what? Sometime in the future, someone you know and love is going to be prompting AI looking for advice. What is that data getting trained on? This is AISMS Human Rhythms in a Synthetic World. I'll see you next time.
speaker-1: Thank you, thank you. Super excited to be here.
speaker-0: Ellie, I'm gonna get right into it. I feel like role modelship is giving vocabulary to something that the world desperately needed. Tell us the origin story of role modelship and where the concept came to you and tell us a little bit about your book.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. So I came to this country with ⁓ two suitcases in a dream. I learned English from the Beatles. So one of my passions is making up new words. And so early in my career in my life, my husband used to correct my English to make sure that the words I say are the correct words. And there's still expressions I don't know. But through this passion about language, I always wondered about the leadership literature because there's a lot of focus on how to be a leader, and there's very little emphasis on how to be the example of what you want people to replicate in the world. And so that's kind of this idea behind role modelship. And the spark really happened at an event when I observed ⁓ complete act of kindness. You know, two individuals met, they formed a company, became a great partnership. I mean it was one of those chance event and meetings and it really was super inspiring. So you never know what the universe is gonna give you.
speaker-0: I actually want to anchor to just the deep thought that you went through, like the process of very deep thinking that you came through to really like as I turn the pages, there's balls after balls of wisdom. There's, you know, the moment where multiple things connect and you have an insight. I felt like you had so many moments of insight and the book. So to me, what was most fascinating was of course knowing your history and who you are and then coming through this journey, but then presenting to the world these really beautiful insights. I'm gonna read one out that I loved and you said ⁓ managers direct reports, leaders inspire followers. But role models engineer identity and magnify the future. I mean, we use some of those words so interchangeably in that depth of thinking and the calibration that you bring in that sentence. I was like, I've been hit by lightning. So help me, help me explain the difference with each of those across each of those words.
speaker-1: Yeah, so the process is all about pattern recognition and synthesis. So I've been a leader In a manager for many, many years. And I I want to say the way you create these books is through living the life, living the experience. So it's not like, you know, the muse gave me some inspiration, obviously, but it's it's that lived experience. ⁓ so I always try to because I coach a lot of companies, a lot of leaders, I always try to explain things to people that they can immediately do something about. And so we ask people in interview questions. It's a typical question, what's the difference between a leader and a manager? And even senior executives can't really describe that. So the way I explain it is if you think of leaders as the visionaries, the strategy, and they really focus on the why. Why we do something and then what we do. So the why and the what. And then the managers come in and they focus on the how and the when. Well what's the gap?
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: The gap is the who. And that's where this concept of identity engineering, and I'm not talking about the technical terms of identity management. I'm talking about the human identity engineering. So who does that? There's some overlaps. Managers do a little bit of that, leaders do a little bit of that. But it's really the role models because what they give you is you look up to them and you say, I want to be like you. So they help you with your identity. And they're kinda the north star of what great looks like and what possibilities out there. And you you know, in storytelling people hear the story of if they can do it, I can do it. Yeah. And they become the bright light that everybody wants to follow.
speaker-0: ⁓ I have so many I I feel like I could completely take this podcast off track and start telling you stories about my role models and hearing about yours. But I'm actually gonna move us along and bring us right back to today, the age of AI. ⁓ I loved the distinction that you provided and the criticality of the who. ⁓ It's a really big question around identity as you think about the age of AI. you know, just having conversations with friends or even clients that are CXOs, thinking of a future where a pretty significant component of your current workforce could be digital colleagues. ⁓ and then, you know, looking at workflows which are stitched end to end, a lot of the components around ⁓ The what, the how can be codified, but the who really can't be. And I think another one of those lightning moments reading ⁓ reading the pages of your book, you say AI can't be what it can't see. And it you know, I think the way you described it, there is no way to codify who. I mean it can copy the voice, but it cannot copy or emulate your value system. as as someone who actually does shape identity and future. So tell us a little bit about how are you thinking about role modelship in the age of AI.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. It's a really big one. So I'll break it down by The idea of AI can't be what AI can't see came from a s very similar expression which I didn't come up with. Psychologists did, which is you can't be what you can't see, which is in STEM, you know, when you have shortages of certain types of humans in certain, you know, technology, people don't know what to aspire to. Same thing is true with AI. I mean we tend to think of AI as code and machine learning models and we tend to think about the technology but But that's because we can understand machine learning models and code. What AI really is, it's a very complex set of human habits and human relationships and human values. Values are the foundation of everything. But because we can't measure that, it's so hard for us to wrap our head around it. We kind of park it to the side. And AI learns and unlearns just like we do. So there's lots of studies that show that if you're rude to AI, it's rude back to you. There's examples of, you know, mental health ⁓ recommendations given by AI that are terrible. I mean, it could lead a human to end their life. So it's it's very dangerous to think of AI as this independent thing. It's really a mirror. And if you think about it, it's a mirror of our past lives, if it's been trained on the last five years of data. And it's a mirror of what's out there on the internet. So it's the good and the bad and the ugly, all of it.
speaker-0: Okay. So at this point I think this is a cliffhanger for us to start introducing the concepts that you had. I think you have five disciplines in the book that make up role modelship. Yes. Exactly to unpack that secret sauce that we talked about. You have stewardship, fellowship, mentorship, leadership, and sponsorship.
speaker-1: Yes, right?
speaker-0: Okay, so at this point in the pod, Ellie, what I tend to do is I put you in the hot seat and maybe we pick up scenarios that you're you're able to have a moment to coach our audiences on how might they think about codifying the right kind of role modelship. So let's start with stewardship. let's take a scenario where I am the product manager at an AI company. And we are just rolling out a new hiring system. And the hiring system has been trained on our company's past promotion and hiring data. And as I'm looking at it, I can see that a lot of the people that sat in the lower ratings could potentially be minority communities.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: ⁓ and because this is years and years of data, there's a ton of bias that's getting fed into ⁓ what is gonna be our new recruiting brain because it's a cost-cutting initiative for our company. Of course, we're talking about experience, but cost is a very big part of it. ⁓ my VP wants us to move fast and quickly adopt the platform and go, go, go. But as a steward of the people, Mm. Even though I'm just a middle manager who's been asked to program manage this program, I'm really struggling. What should I do?
speaker-1: Yeah. All of these scenarios I know you're gonna give me are gonna be tough. The quick answer to that is you have to be able to provide feedback. So in the book I have a framework, it's called the sober framework, which is situation, observation, benefits of pivoting to something else, examples of what greatness looks like and then results. Or you can think of it as working backwards from obviously you don't want these results. or you wouldn't be concerned. What are great results that you want to see? And then how do you communicate that? And the communication is tricky because that's where human relationships come in. So if you have a great relationship with the people you're talking to, you may be able to ⁓ bring this up in a meeting. It also depends on the culture of of the company. If if the culture is not conducive to this being brought up in a meeting, you bring it up in a one on one. The point is you don't stay silent because stewardship is about owning not just your character and your results, but also living the world better than you found it. And you have a responsibility to speak up.
speaker-0: ⁓ and it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage to be a steward. And I think ⁓ as much as this is about role modelship, I felt that it's also like I felt braver when I see someone in the corner of the room that's going to back me up when I say something that no one wants to hear. So
speaker-1: Yeah. Well the biggest change with AI is all of these things that we used to consider DEI initiatives. Yeah. They're no longer DEI initiatives. They're now products. Yeah. And it's a product that all of us are gonna live with. So anything related to what people used to call them soft skills. ⁓ yeah, this is the department of HR. Yeah. It's no longer that. It's part of the product and part of what our future world is gonna look like.
speaker-0: Okay. All right. Case number two. I'm gonna bring you to fellowship. I have to tell you, Ellie, one of my other episodes I did was with ⁓ with Liz Fosslane. ⁓ I don't know if you met her the other day, but ⁓ it was all about uncertainty and managing uncertainty. So this one is very related around fellowship. So I'm a mid-career engineer. And we've been told that the entire product development lifecycle is going to be completely reimagined using AI. Half my colleagues are very excited because they've been playing with co you know Claude Code and Cursor and Vercel and whatnot on their weekends. The other half is really worried because this is basically disrupting. things that we used to do by hand, you know, R UI UX engineers, etc. Like really, really struggling. ⁓ so it's just creating more of a rift across us as a team and us as a community. And we're not coming together to talk about how each of us is feeling. But what I see is that we are getting divided into these two factions. Yes. What can I do as an observer of this situation to Not let an EI situation create this rift and bind us back into a community.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. So fellowship is about creating tables for collaboration for everybody and helping each other out. And AI is serving as this basically fork in the road. And humanity is forking on multiple levels. So one is this technology divide of am I gonna use AI or not? The other one is gonna be actually bigger, which is am I gonna be a creator versus a consumer? And I think most people don't even realize that if they don't use AI, they are opting out of being a creator. And I don't mean like writer or an artist. I mean like you create your own business, you create your own destiny, you create your own future versus you're waiting for somebody else to do it and you're just watching and consuming. Every time I coach somebody, when I position it that way, it immediately clicks. Because it's not a technological choice. It's a future destiny choice. So if the leader is not creating this environment or tables for collaboration, anybody can do it because fellowship and role modelship is not about the title. You don't have to have authority. You just pull people together, super informal. Let's have lunch, let's have a chat. How do we feel about this? And then as a team, because there's strength in numbers, they can go together to leadership and say, Hey, we have some ideas of what we would like to see. Can we work on this together? Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ can you adopt me as one of your mentees? Absolutely.
speaker-1: Absolutely, I'm happy to help, but you don't need it.
speaker-0: Like, ⁓ my god, this is gonna get me out of bed at four and start coding. okay, so moving moving to the next one, I really do like those first two around stewardship and fellowship, and and the fact that it's not about your role, it's not about your title, but it's your state of being, it's what you stand for, and anyone can start to demonstrate those behaviors so that the world around us learns it. Okay. Mentorship and s and sponsorship. I I love the distinction between these two. ⁓ so I am the VP of a product company and we take mentorship very seriously. And we're just rolling out a new product, AI-powered product, that matches mentors and mentees. And it shows similarity in our career paths and it shows Similarity and maybe some of our personality traits. If you know there's our our system has strengths training, ⁓ our strengths data, etc. It's matching based on all of those factors, and it's doing a really good job of matching mentors and mentees. What it's not doing though is doing anything about sponsorship.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: basically guide the mentor on how to coach someone and the mentee to ask the right questions and get the best out of the mentorship experience. What the product doesn't do is guide the mentor on who deserves to be sponsored, which is a very, very big distinction. So how might we be more intentional about sponsorship in addition to mentorship, especially when it comes to product led? programs.
speaker-1: Yeah, that use case is really tough because the gap between mentorship and sponsorship is really big. It's a much bigger gap than managers and leaders, for example. And the reason for that is mentorship is more about knowledge transfer, which now you can get it from AI. There are very few mentors out there that encourage their mentees to be better than them, which is the overlap with sponsorship, is when a mentor says, you know what you can have a future much brighter than me and I will help you. So that's kind of the overlap. Sponsorship is when somebody puts their name and their reputation and their relationship with everybody else on the line to say this person should be in this room. And it typically happens when the individual is not in the room. And brand, people's brands are really established when they're not in the room and somebody is speaking about them. So not everybody is willing to do that. It's a question of risk. And within a company it's actually easier. It's harder when you think about cross companies and large events, you know, in the industry and even cross industry. Because that capital of your brand and your reputation could be impacted by something as simple as the individual data recommended didn't follow through on something. Right? Let alone if they un are unethical or they commit a crime or 'cause you don't know how far they can take it.
speaker-0: I ⁓ it's like saying that the sponsor uses a reputational chip, like it's my reputation. I'm putting my reputation's chip on the line to support this individual. any ⁓ any guidance, just a second question on that one, Ellie, on how might organizations think about codifying more sponsorship-like behaviors across their leaders?
speaker-1: I d what I've seen work is really pairing the two. So anytime I've been a sponsor to somebody, I didn't just sponsor them and let them loose because again they reflect on me. I continue to mentor them through the process. So if I've sponsored somebody for a job, I'll check in. If they're not very good with follow through, I'll check in and say, Hey, how's it going? Do you wanna have a quick conversation? Because my job is to make them successful. Right? I think the challenge is companies think of these two Disciplines is completely independent when they're not. And if companies really took a little bit more time because the matching process in mentorship programs is not reputational based. You get a complete stranger, there can be even no chemistry, right? In sponsorship, chemistry is super important. And it's not just aligning on your values, it's aligning on where you are in your current life. And what your current priorities are. And sometimes it's as simple as, you know, do you have a similar hobby or do you have kids? It's so much more than just work. Yeah. Yeah. That these programs that are just based on a few parameters can't really capture it.
speaker-0: I th I couldn't agree more. It's really personal. It's like I am committed to the cause because it's my choice to sponsor someone. I hear you. Okay. Last one. Last one. I promise this is last one. ⁓ leadership. Mm-hmm. And I'm the CEO of a company and my organization is going through this really major AI transformation. We're pushing really hard to Bring down costs and drive growth and you know deliver on the promise of AI. And I was presenting at a recent town hall and a fairly young employee raised her hand and asked me, This is all great, but what are you doing personally to learn AI and and and you know adopt it in your own life? And I didn't have a really good answer. And I felt in that moment that I was really exposed as a leader. how should I think about this situation and what AI is doing to my leadership?
speaker-1: Yeah, it took a lot of courage for that person to ask, especially, you know, in a room full of people. It's a lot of courage. It gives you two things. So first it gives you a mirror. So that question serves as the mirror to say, am I really exemplifying what I'm describing? It kind of shows you the gap between strategy and actions, or between words and actions. And I love it because it's a data point, right? So you have multiple paths from there. One is it's possible that you're doing all the things that you're saying you're doing with AI and you just haven't shared that yet. That's the easiest way. You just need to do a little bit more sharing. Yeah. Because people are not gonna sit with you and watch you what you do. They don't know that you do it on the plane or you do it when you know you take your kids to soccer practice. Whenever it is that you're learning AI. The bigger gap is when you're not doing anything. And you're just actually setting the vision and the strategy and that's a harder gap to fill, you have to dedicate time. And you have to, as a CEO, you have a tremendous responsibility, most executives know this, to be the role model because change management doesn't happen if the sponsors and the leaders don't show the change. And it's not just AI. I mean it could you could be implementing a new phone system, a new CRM system. It doesn't really matter what you're implementing. If you're not using it and you're not demonstrating what great looks like, you can't expect people to adopt a change.
speaker-0: And I I just to add to that, Ellie, the big thing I'm seeing is that adopting AI is a little bit different from adopt adopting technology because tech is it's the same look and feel for everybody. But AI mixed with our consciousness could produce its own unique output, right? And so I feel like the metacognition needed for leaders to actually go in and play with it and see what it does and see what it produces honestly gives them conviction to lead an AI based programme. Otherwise it's just a business case. Yes. It's not it's not a full change. I couldn't agree more.
speaker-1: Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I think it takes a lot more effort. So the upfront kind of cost is higher. But the other thing, there's a lot of studies now that it's making people actually dumber. So prolonged use of AI, you're gonna stop thinking. And there's a generation I have teenagers, I tell ⁓ their brain is so fragmented. TikTok and everything, you know, with the tiny little slices of time that they have no focus to sit down and and write a book like this. Because they saw me going through this journey of the ten whiteboards and they're like, Wow, how do you have the patience to to do this work for like endless amount of time? My brain is wired differently. I'm not fragmented to the two milliseconds.
speaker-0: Clearly this is a conversation at every dinner table. But ⁓ the conversation my boys and I have is what is a good use of AI and what is not. Like if you are to write an essay, you need to do the first draft. You need to think about it and apply. And this needs to be human led. But if you're researching, you know, which sports camp to get to, sure. Use AI to you know as as AI first. So we talk a lot about AI first versus human first. Okay. All right. Four amazing case studies across your five dimensions. ⁓ let's see if you can harvest the distilled inside celly, which I call AI isms. ⁓ let's maybe break it into two. what would your top sort of advice or AISMs be for recipients of AI. So I work in a company, I'm receiving what my leadership is driving in terms of AI programs and policies, etc. How can I be a better role model?
speaker-1: Yeah, I would say be braver because this is all about change. And Abda, the stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. The faster you can move through those phases to actually experiment and be super comfortable in the messy middle because everybody is experimenting with everything right now. That's the biggest advice. Because if you're staying on the sidelines, you're not wiring your brain. You're not wiring other humans and AI to be role models. And you're gonna be left behind because people will will adopt that. ⁓ the other thing, as we mentioned a little bit earlier, is diversity is no longer an HR problem, it's a product problem. So become the steward of data that is not biased, and also kind of check your biases as you're working with AI because everybody's so focused on efficiency. It's not about efficiency, it's about is I making the world better for the next generation of humans.
speaker-0: That was a mic drop moment right there. Super well said, Ellie. Okay, let's flip it. And if I am the leadership of a company that is coming through NEI journey and we're going, going, going, ⁓ what can I do as the leader to be a better role model in the age of AI?
speaker-1: I think the biggest epiphany that leaders that went through the journey of the book with me was they realized how much influence they had on other people and how influenceable they were themselves. So when they realized that they started asking the question of what am I role modeling today? What am I role modeling today? And when you do that, your behavior will change with humans and with AI. And it sounds really simple, it's really hard to do because they already have a full plate, there's so many things going on. But AI is watching. Humans have been watching all along. Now AI is watching too.
speaker-0: Just on that note, ⁓ you reminded me just talking about the leaders that you spoke with. ⁓ there are more than 200 stories about role modelship. My gosh, I'd love to be a fly on the wall or on on the ten whiteboards rather, ⁓ to learn learn a little bit more. But Ali, which was one of those stories from the book that ⁓ really surprised you?
speaker-1: It wasn't actually the stories in the book because the book was around patterns and really validating that this concept is gonna resonate and that it makes sense for leaders to adopt it. It was the stories after the book. So I had one five year old that attended with his parents one of the book signing events and on the weekend after asked his parents what is a role model? Am I a role model? I was very surprised. I did not expect five year olds to even understand what I'm talking about.
speaker-0: I think your job is done. If your book made one five year old imagine that early in their life to think about, am I a role model? I I mean honestly, if I have to summarize, right, everything that you've said around being brave, around is AI gonna make the world a better place? You know, everything that you've said in your AI isms at the end of the day is us asking ourselves. Am I a role model? What have I done today to be a role model? So if a five-year-old can get it, everybody can everybody can get it. That is so cute, but also so insightful that even a five-year-old can be influenced to make the world a better and that surprised me. I did not think you'll go there. I thought you'll tell me about some CEO somewhere, but my god, that is so refreshing. Okay.
speaker-1: Biggest surprise.
speaker-0: I'm gonna end on a ⁓ on a personal note. ⁓ of course, before that, before I go away from the book, I do want to say to my audience over here that it's fascinating, it's a beautiful book. Grab it, it's behind Ellie, it's right next to me as well. I have enjoyed it. It's not ⁓ it's not something you're gonna regret reading. Okay, ending on a personal note, ⁓ Ellie, and I think you touched on this a little bit when you talked about the concept of role modelship, but You grew up in Cold War Bulgaria. You learned English from the Beatles, like you said, and we already ⁓ talked about your favorite song, let it be. You arrived in the US with two suitcases and built a career advising 150 companies across Silicon Valley. ⁓ along the way, you found your voice in a language that wasn't your first, and it's something you and I bonded on ⁓ very deeply. What does finding your voice mean to you now in the age of the
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a really great question. So as soon as AI hit the market, it hit me very differently because I've always struggled to learn English. And I've always had feedback from family and friends. ⁓ you're not using the right word or you're not pronouncing the right word. So language is something I'm never gonna be great at. And now to have the entire future of humanity be based on words. And I know firsthand how difficult it is to pick the right words. And words are super ambiguous and given the wrong context can be interpreted very differently. I had to do something about that. And so I spend a lot of time thinking about the future of words. And it sounds a little bit too in the weeds, but it's not. around role modelship. And I think it only takes a foreigner to come up with a word like that. Because I think everybody else is just so comfortable with their language that their brain is almost it you know, it has to happen by mistake to to see fruition. Does that make sense?
speaker-0: It does. It's not the word, but it's the thought behind the word. Yes. ⁓ is what you're describing. And I think it's easier to find vocabulary for those thoughts behind the words because you can make up your own words now. ⁓ beautifully, beautifully said. Ellie, that's a wrap. Thank you so much for this time. And you know, I enjoyed meeting you when we did meet. I loved our conversation after that, but I think as I'm Listening to your ⁓ everything that you said in the last whatever thirty five, forty minutes. ⁓ I think the world is going to be a better place because of people like you. So thank you. Thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for sharing all those pearls of wisdom. And I'm gonna listen to the Beatles tonight.
speaker-1: Well thank you for being an amazing sponsor because it takes people like you to amplify diverse voices and to show the world that it's the voices that we find that are gonna take us forward. Because imagine if people are afraid to speak up, then what is the world gonna be? We don't want that. We want to inspire people to be role models.
speaker-0: ⁓ appreciate it so much, Ellie. Thank you.
speaker-1: Thank you, thank you.
speaker-0: That was the magical Ellie Potter. What were your takeaways from that episode? For me, there was one major one and it's profound. It is about role modelship, and there's probably nothing more important than it in this moment. Anytime you interact with AI, every prompt, every meeting where a note taker is capturing what you're saying, every such moment that you're interacting with AI. It is our responsibility to truly role model the behaviors that we want our future generations to learn. Because guess what? Sometime in the future, someone you know and love is going to be prompting AI looking for advice. What is that data getting trained on? This is AISMS Human Rhythms in a Synthetic World. I'll see you next time.
