Gray Divorce w/ Nicole Rochester, MD, and Betsy Pake 10/13/26

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[SPEAKER_00]: The marriage that worked when you were 30 isn't necessarily the marriage that was built for when you're 60 people change and I think that that agreement never really gets renegotiated.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that when people are really unhappy, the marriage has to end, but maybe the marriage as it is has to end and something new has to come.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That takes two people that are willing to do that work as opposed to just one person doing it or nobody wanting to.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to Aging Matters of Program Featuring Aging-related topics of interest to older adults and their families.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Cheryl Beverstorff your host.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The term grade divorce refers to the rising trend of couples, age 50 and older, often married for decades, ending their marriages.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Rates of grade divorce have been increasing for decades and show no signs of slowing down.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Today, my guests are Dr. Nicole Rochester, host of a podcast called Your Next Chapter, and Betsy Pake, Certified Master Coach.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They will provide details about grade divorce and why these separations are increasing among older adults.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And they'll also talk about their grade divorce journeys, as well as the challenges and discoveries many women and men
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[SPEAKER_02]: and how these individuals can reimagine the future and redefine their identity.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So welcome Dr. Nicole and Betsy and thank you for joining me today.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having us for having us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Before we get into the specifics of grade divorce, especially we're going to start with you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How does a woman know whether her marriage needs work or is actually over?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And as you're addressing this, maybe you could tell us if men respond in the same way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: To put it really simply, I think, a marriage that needs work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: is one where one or both of the people find themselves unhappy, unfulfilled and you know if it's something that needs work and just doesn't need to disintegrate when it has two people that are willing to do the work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: A marriage that's over I think just has one person doing all of the work
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[SPEAKER_00]: is when things just get quiet, when there's no longer conversation, when there's not that interaction anymore or that desire to try to reach the other person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the same thing happens with men.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think men may approach it a little bit differently.
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[SPEAKER_00]: In the work that I do, I find women do a lot of
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[SPEAKER_00]: reaching forward.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if that isn't clear to the man that that's what she's doing, grasping for that connection, then it gets missed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then I think is when we see the man go, I had no idea.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a communication strategy that needs to shift there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Do you find that maybe many women stay stuck in this decision for years?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what will finally bring them to clarity?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then again, does that the same behavior that men might exhibit?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Or is this more something that women are likely to do?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think women's day stuck for a lot of reasons to decide to leave a marriage as such a big decision.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think so many times women are trying to make that decision with their head, but their body is running a program of, you know, fear and guilt.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and likely decades of learning how to put everybody else first.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so she's trying to make this decision in her head and her body's doing something totally different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that makes that choice and the clarity around it really difficult because there's so many mixed signals coming in.
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[SPEAKER_00]: we as women, and I'm just saying this from my own experience and from all of the women that I have worked with to help them make this decision, is that we've spent our lives really choosing other people's emotions first, not wanting to hurt other people's feelings.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I can't even tell you how many times I've thought it's not a big deal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's fine.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I can deal with it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But over time, that starts to skew how people experience things, how they know if something is actually how they feel or just a program that they run, just a pattern that they run.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Women lots of times are waiting for certainty.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And certainty typically doesn't come in any area
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[SPEAKER_00]: And once you make a decision, then you can move down that path.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Many times women are trying to put the certainty first.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They can never quite get certain, and so they just stay stuck and spend an indecision.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think a part of it also is
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[SPEAKER_00]: balancing those ideas off your friends.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you think?
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[SPEAKER_00]: What should I do and asking for feedback from people instead of really coming back to yourself?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this is why I always say, really coming back to yourself, knowing what's right for you is going to likely be a clearer path forward.
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[SPEAKER_00]: to your point about how men experience this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think for men it looks a little bit different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's less talking it through and more like staying really busy going to the golf course or staying at work later or doing those types of things sort of opting out in their own way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think many times men stay in a marriage because it's functional.
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[SPEAKER_00]: as opposed to it's emotionally feeding them, and so they find other ways or they decide they don't need that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We kind of see men and women running on different tracks.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're looking for something different, they receive it in different ways, and then that mismatch leads to this dissolving of the marriage that feels all of the sudden.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that helps us set the stage.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So Dr. Nicole, let's hear from you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I did give somewhat of a definition of grade divorce in my introduction, but perhaps you could expand on that and tell us a little bit more.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is probably a new concept that listeners haven't heard about before.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So tell us more about what is meant by the term grade divorce in broader terms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Great of force is an interesting term not surprisingly having to do with the accumulation of gray hair.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the formal definition is couples who are separating or divorcing at the age of 50 or above.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is the definition of a great of force.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure when it was coined, but it is something that we're seeing a lot more often.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I know we're gonna talk more about that in terms of the trends.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mentioned that the rates seem to be increasing now, mainly for the last several decades and show no signs of slowing down.
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[SPEAKER_02]: In your research, have you found that that's true and how does that compare then to overall divorce rates?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's very interesting that at a time in our society in the U.S. where overall divorce rates are decreasing, the opposite is true for a greater force.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And as you mentioned, over the last few decades, great divorces are actually rising.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there was a slow rise between 1970 and 1990 in great divorce rates, but then since 1990, the great divorce rate has doubled.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so now, great divorce represents about 40% of all U.S. divorces in the United States.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at great divorces in general, they are more common among remarriages as one might expect because it's always even more difficult to get it right the second or the third time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But we do see a lot of great divorces in first-time marriages as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing that's interesting, I'm in my mid-50s, I found for divorce when I was 53, but when we look at great divorce, the highest rate is actually among individuals 65 years of age and older, one in 10 persons that are divorcing in the U.S. right now are age 65 and older.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that I would say surprised me when I was researching these statistics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, younger couples are choosing to stick it out and stay married, but what we're seeing among older individuals 50 and up is that actually we're making the decision to leave and end our marriages.
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[SPEAKER_00]: with the statistics of women waiting later or women and men waiting later to get married.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The divorce rate is lower for younger people because they're opting out of that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: When I was younger, we'd get married in our early 20s and that wasn't unheard of.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And now I think that's a little bit more unusual.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, I agree.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and that's a good point also, and I just wanted to take it a little bit further in terms of the fact that in our country, we have so many different cultures.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Is there a variation, Dr. Nicole or Betsy, that you're aware of, that there might be in some cultures or in some populations in the older adult population?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking about where there might be some hesitancy in terms of grade divorce.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't discovered any significant differences.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always a little cautious about categorizing trends and things by race, ethnicity culture.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But to your point, I can imagine that in cultures where marriage and family may be more highly valued.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think, honestly, what we're seeing across the board,
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[SPEAKER_01]: with great divorce is that individuals are reaching these decisions after as Betsy stated painstakingly long periods of indecision, long periods of unhappiness, and so I personally haven't come across any significant differences.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you have Betsy by culture.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I would be more curious if that line would be religious, if you're really religious, opting to stay as opposed to if religion is an as significant of a point in your life, or if you've come to some sort of agreement that even though I feel this way,
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[SPEAKER_00]: the way that I'm living isn't enough for me and so I'm going to re-evaluate how I feel about religion in this aspect or my vows in this aspect.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's something I see a lot as women saying, what did my vows really mean?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Who was I making those two?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Am I breaking them?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And what does this actually mean for me from a religious perspective?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Nicole, I was wondering if there are sort of some variations on a theme, maybe to avoid grade divorce, there might be some situation that couples might come to.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking maybe living a part together or maintaining separate homes, while there's still in a committed relationship rather than just turning to grade divorce.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Any thoughts about that possibility?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, living a part together is something that frankly has been fascinating me as I have read more and learn more about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's something that my friends and I, who are divorced, talk about if we were to be married, would we even want to live in the same home?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that it's not common, it's not traditional.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So to speak, I don't know that it's necessarily the antidote.
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[SPEAKER_01]: for a great divorce, but I do think that it is a movement that really values independence and autonomy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think there are a lot of reasons why people choose to quote unquote live apart together, and this is also risen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The statistics say that 3% of married couples are choosing to maintain separate homes, and I just find that fascinating.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it certainly can be
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[SPEAKER_01]: to choose to live in a way that may be a little bit more harmonious, you know, it's difficult when you reach your 50s or 60s and beyond, and you are now entertaining the possibility of reintering a serious long term relationship or marriage, and you have developed your own habits, they've developed their own habits, you have your own assets, they have their own assets, and I think that for many reasons people are entertaining,
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[SPEAKER_01]: This idea of, I love you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I want to be in a committed relationship with you, but I value my space, my privacy, my time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, it's something that people are doing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We have to consider that it's more expensive, obviously, to maintain two households.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think while many older individuals may want this type of relationship, I think financially, it's really challenging.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And for some people,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not to say that's the point of getting married is to share finances, but it certainly can be one of the benefits of getting married.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so to be able to, or to have to have two separate mortgages and utilities and all of those things, and to not have the benefit of sharing those expenses, I think it makes living a part together something that is not possible for many.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I have a dream of a duplex where I am golden on and he is Kurt Russell and we have a duplex so we can just visit each other whenever we like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love that I love that Betsy well that might be the answer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Betsy, let's get back to you for a moment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're the one who is seeing individuals, primarily women in this kind of situations.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What are you seeing?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What are the most common factors that are contributing to the rise in grade divorce in the US?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking maybe one might be emptiness syndrome, but I'm sure there are many others.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What do we need to know about that?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think absolutely the empty nest.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think the kids are a shared project and then when that project is complete, people are like, what do we do now?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I hear stories all the time of people dropping their kids off at college and then they get in the car and drive home and they're like,
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[SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea what to talk about with this person because this shared project is now in a dorm two hours away.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I absolutely think that starts to change how women are interacting because they have always been the one and their identity and their role has been the one that's like new where the cleats were.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And
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[SPEAKER_00]: knew what the doctor's appointments needed to be.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And now all of the sudden that identity has shifted, that can be really hard for people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I also think people are just living longer, longevity plays a piece in this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that women have stopped believing that they have to stay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There has been a shift in women many times are breadwinners.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They have their own
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[SPEAKER_00]: incomes and their own assets and they want to live a life where they feel like it feels full.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that there's a lot more examples of that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of times when I think back to maybe 20 or 30 years ago, the idea of leaving felt a little scary because there weren't as many examples of women thriving and being alone.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm part of a book club of women who are all divorced and they're all in their 60s and 70s.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the youngest one in the group.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They all own their own homes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're all thriving.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They go on vacations.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They have rich friendships.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes they date.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They are living happy lives and I think that that wasn't seen as available in the past and so as society changes, as kids leave, as we live longer, all of those things start to play into, how do I actually want to live my life from this point forward?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And can I reevaluate is this working for me?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get back to you, Dr. Nicole.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How common is infidelity as a cause of grade divorce?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And might that mean something along the lines of what Betsy was talking about, but couples who've been married for many years, sometimes 30, 40, even longer years, have just grown apart.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a need for looking to find somebody else.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Have you seen that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Infidelity definitely is a major contributor.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The American Psychological Association says that infidelity is the cause of about 30 to 40% of all divorces and the statistics are fairly similar when we look at great divorce.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And interestingly, going back to what Betsy said,
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[SPEAKER_01]: infidelity is definitely a factor and what happens a lot in grade divorce is that they may have been tolerating.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Infidelity for a long time, a lot of the things that were perhaps tolerable or things that we were willing to ignore when the children were younger, when you're focusing on raising children and getting them into college and all the things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When you get older and when you start to really come into who you are, you're less willing to tolerate that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When you look at the fact that you have less years in front of you than you have behind you, some of the things that you may have been willing to ignore or even repair, they become intolerable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, infidelity definitely contributes to great divorce.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It definitely contributed to my great divorce.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But in some ways, it's just kind of a summary of all of the other factors and things that women and men have been tolerating.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I want to mention is that when we say infidelity, we often are talking about sexual infidelity, and of course that is a primary cause, but there's also
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[SPEAKER_01]: financial infidelity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that also contributes to great of yours.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You are living with this person that you've been married with often for decades where you were building a life together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you thought, and there are situations where you discover hidden assets, or you discover that your spouse has been squandering the marital assets on other individuals, on hobbies, on habits,
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[SPEAKER_01]: sometimes living double lives.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so financial infidelity is also a growing cause of great divorce.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Betsy, you've been mentioning some things as Dr. Nicole has, are there changing expectations of a married couple that can lead to an unhappy marriage?
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[SPEAKER_02]: There are so many different factors now you mentioned for women, they have education, they have jobs, factors that maybe in my generation, they didn't have those opportunities.
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[SPEAKER_02]: as people are getting married or beginning to contemplate or could be contemplating great divorce, that the expectations for that marriage now are different than maybe if it was a generation ago.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Are you seeing that Betsy?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think our mothers or our grandmothers married for security, that was what they needed to do.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm mid-50s, and I think that a lot of women in my age married a little bit for security, but also for partnership.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Although the setup wasn't necessarily geared towards partnership, I think that has been a change that has been coming, but I think by the time you get in mid-life, like what we're talking about here is that asks for something totally different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is asking for somebody to be known.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is a deeper knowing of somebody.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You had the shared project, you had the kids, you had all this other stuff going on.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the marriage that worked when you were 30,
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[SPEAKER_00]: isn't necessarily the marriage that was built for when you're 60.
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[SPEAKER_00]: People change and I think that that agreement never really gets renegotiated.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We talk a lot about vows and staying for things, but what about renegotiating where you are?
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[SPEAKER_00]: think that when people are really unhappy, the marriage has to end, but maybe the marriage as it is has to end and something new has to come.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's this shift that people are older and their needs are different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I also think that women have carried the emotional and household
20:37.271 --> 20:55.020
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think by the time we get to midlife like we're tired of that, we get some help and I think that there's sort of an unspoken expectation that causes damage that couples rarely will actually sit down and say here's what I need for this next chapter.
20:55.959 --> 20:58.921
[SPEAKER_00]: We've been doing it this way, and that is how it's been.
20:59.141 --> 21:02.803
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not happy with that anymore, and this is what I need for the next chapter.
21:03.443 --> 21:11.227
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, sometimes we hear about people renewing their vows, but I think it would be great to sit down and renegotiate those vows and create a new chapter.
21:11.267 --> 21:19.511
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, it doesn't mean that the marriage ends, but it could be the marriage as it is ends, and then you come together and create something new.
21:19.671 --> 21:22.513
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that goes all the way back to what I said in the very beginning,
21:22.813 --> 21:30.122
[SPEAKER_00]: which was that takes two people that are willing to do that work as opposed to just one person doing it or nobody wanting to.
21:30.907 --> 21:53.664
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would be remiss if I didn't mention health challenges, and I'm going to come back to you, Dr. Nicole, because, of course, again, we're talking about an older adult population, which having produced this aging matters now for almost 10 years, I always say older adults are anywhere from 50 to 100, and so obviously the situation is different.
21:54.064 --> 21:56.206
[SPEAKER_02]: And so let's talk about health challenges.
21:56.806 --> 22:11.380
[SPEAKER_02]: can that particular aspect of the relationship strain a couple and they're wanting to stay together and maybe the societal changes and attitudes toward grade divorces now.
22:11.440 --> 22:16.725
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it is health, maybe it's something else, but let's start with health and then expand on that, Dr. Nicole.
22:17.303 --> 22:22.687
[SPEAKER_01]: Certainly as we grow older, unfortunately, that often brings with it health challenges.
22:22.927 --> 22:35.737
[SPEAKER_01]: And so health challenges absolutely can be a strain on any relationship, including a marriage as individuals are aging, as they're developing more chronic illnesses, or the illnesses that they have may worsen.
22:36.257 --> 22:37.497
[SPEAKER_01]: may become more significant.
22:37.517 --> 22:46.701
[SPEAKER_01]: They may develop new acute illnesses, things like stroke, things like heart disease, a new cancer diagnosis, those have a significant strain on relationships.
22:47.021 --> 22:59.245
[SPEAKER_01]: And it can be very challenging to navigate that, especially if for the bulk of your marriage prior to that, you all were healthy, you may have been vibrant, you may have been able to travel together or exercise together, do things that were more active.
22:59.265 --> 23:00.145
[SPEAKER_01]: And so those health
23:03.206 --> 23:18.258
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting when we look at how serious physical illness impacts divorce rates, what we find and what the statistics show is that a serious illness significantly increases the probability of divorce if the wife is the one who falls ill.
23:19.699 --> 23:28.402
[SPEAKER_01]: So, not to have disparaging comments about men, but when the wife becomes ill, it's more likely that that marriage will result in divorce.
23:28.942 --> 23:35.784
[SPEAKER_01]: If the husband on the other hand develops a serious illness, the statistics show that women are much more likely to stick it out.
23:35.864 --> 23:38.505
[SPEAKER_01]: We are, I would say, natural caregivers.
23:39.305 --> 23:46.392
[SPEAKER_01]: and so we are more likely to stay, we are more likely to endure even if it is at our own expense.
23:46.412 --> 23:48.433
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's just what women typically do.
23:48.874 --> 23:50.315
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's really interesting.
23:50.755 --> 24:02.246
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in addition to things like cancer or stroke or heart disease, there are changes that just happen as a part of aging that can put strain on a relationship, particularly emotional intimacy, physical intimacy.
24:02.286 --> 24:03.447
[SPEAKER_01]: So things like menopause.
24:03.967 --> 24:17.070
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, menopause has a huge impact on hormones, which impacts your ability to engage, I'll say, in physical intimacy, your desire for physical intimacy.
24:17.251 --> 24:22.172
[SPEAKER_01]: And then for the men, there's a rise in things like a reptile dysfunction with aging.
24:22.332 --> 24:29.914
[SPEAKER_01]: And so those things may interfere the ways that that couple may have been used to connecting on a physical level.
24:30.474 --> 24:53.894
[SPEAKER_01]: those health challenges can strain a marriage and lead to divorce and then also we have to talk about caregiving because when you're in your mid-fifties and beyond you are often in that sandwich generation or maybe leaving that sandwich generation where you have aging parents you're taking care of your kids or your kids or off to college and the strain of caregiving and that's something that I experienced personally is huge.
24:55.195 --> 25:13.669
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you are in a marriage where your parents or your spouse's parents are aging, sometimes that looks like bringing them into the home, caring for them in the home, or spending a lot of time away from home, taking care of their medical illnesses, going to doctors appointments with them, being financially sometimes responsible for them.
25:14.149 --> 25:15.931
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that brings a whole other level.
25:16.511 --> 25:21.177
[SPEAKER_01]: of stress and strain, so all of those things are contributors to great of force.
25:21.657 --> 25:35.073
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if we look at the second part of your question in terms of societal changes and attitudes like we've been talking about when our moms and our grandmothers and great grandmothers were married, it's not that the divorce wasn't a thing, but most people just stuck it out.
25:35.773 --> 25:49.848
[SPEAKER_01]: and divorce had a huge stigma, particularly among the religious community, but even those who were non-religious, and I think that many of us who saw our grandparents have marriages that reached 70 years, 75 years.
25:50.368 --> 25:58.036
[SPEAKER_01]: We assumed, or I assumed, I can say, when I was younger, like, oh, that's such a wonderful thing to see these long-term marriages, and we mistook
25:58.777 --> 26:02.420
[SPEAKER_01]: duration for stability or for happiness.
26:02.960 --> 26:07.403
[SPEAKER_01]: We thought that a long marriage meant a healthy marriage, and we know now that's just not true.
26:07.543 --> 26:20.612
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that as society is more accepting, there is still a significant stigma attached to divorce, but as divorce becomes more accepted and acceptable, I think it makes it more accessible.
26:21.012 --> 26:28.273
[SPEAKER_01]: for people who are realizing that yeah I'm not going to stay in a loveless marriage like my parents did or like my grandparents did.
26:28.293 --> 26:46.977
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to stay in a marriage where I don't feel respected or where I don't feel that both of us are fighting for the same thing and so I definitely think that these societal changes have contributed to the acceptance of great divorce and given people permission I would say to live a life that
26:51.219 --> 27:02.099
[SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Nicole, do you think that today's women who file for a grade divorce are in a better position to thrive and survive than maybe their moms?
27:03.148 --> 27:23.666
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say largely yes, like Betsy shared earlier, women today are less likely to be financially dependent on their spouse and so when we find ourselves in relationships and marriages that no longer are healthy, that may even be toxic, we are not needing to stay for financial support.
27:23.706 --> 27:25.268
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, doesn't mean that there's not a strain.
27:25.848 --> 27:31.311
[SPEAKER_01]: when we leave these marriages, when we end these marriages, but we have our own assets.
27:31.391 --> 27:35.994
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of us are the primary breadwinners, or were the primary breadwinners in our marriages.
27:36.094 --> 27:44.578
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that financial risk that used to keep women stuck in unhealthy marriages has largely been removed.
27:44.698 --> 27:50.842
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also think just as the movement around women really owning
27:51.582 --> 28:15.362
[SPEAKER_01]: Their needs and their wants and their desires and seeing that modeled in other women even women who choose not to get married Always think about Oprah Wemfree as an example of someone who chose not to get married at all And I think they're just more examples of women who are single-by-choice women who are single as a result of great a voice and We are just finding that
28:16.303 --> 28:22.229
[SPEAKER_01]: we are capable of making that decision, we are capable of living independently.
28:22.269 --> 28:31.497
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll also add that there's a degree of peace being someone on the other side of great divorce and comparing that to the chaos that was my marriage.
28:31.677 --> 28:37.503
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a level of peace that you acquire and you're almost willing to get that at all costs.
28:38.782 --> 28:46.046
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would even add, then, Dr. Nicole, it's not only that financial independence that you spoke of, but women are more educated.
28:46.346 --> 28:49.188
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, they have advanced degrees.
28:49.308 --> 28:50.729
[SPEAKER_02]: Many of them have doctorates.
28:51.049 --> 28:53.410
[SPEAKER_02]: They've stayed in the workplace much longer.
28:54.051 --> 29:01.595
[SPEAKER_02]: Would you agree that that's a part of it as well, not only financial independence, but education and career advancement and experience as well?
29:02.390 --> 29:02.991
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
29:03.191 --> 29:08.575
[SPEAKER_01]: And the education and the career advancement contributes to the financial independence.
29:08.595 --> 29:11.097
[SPEAKER_01]: So they definitely are interrelated.
29:11.298 --> 29:20.245
[SPEAKER_01]: I do want to mention though that while we have seen that trend, there are still many women who find themselves at the end of a great divorce financially struggling.
29:20.685 --> 29:24.108
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are women who by choice were the state at home mom.
29:24.128 --> 29:24.549
[SPEAKER_01]: They were
29:24.969 --> 29:29.170
[SPEAKER_01]: the ones who were working in the home and not necessarily earning an income.
29:29.491 --> 29:37.053
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to paint this rosy picture that all of us are primary breadwinners and making lots of money and ending our marriages and living these great lives.
29:37.133 --> 29:47.937
[SPEAKER_01]: There's another side to that coin for women who are not as financially independent and still either choose to get divorced or maybe on the other side of that decision by their spouse.
29:48.298 --> 30:04.684
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and that's a good segue back to Betsy because since you worked directly with women who are dealing with these issues, let's talk about the financial considerations that couples will have to make and particularly the women in a grade divorce.
30:05.184 --> 30:12.446
[SPEAKER_02]: So talk about dividing assets, maybe retirement savings, that the couple has health care
30:17.968 --> 30:30.233
[SPEAKER_02]: How does it understand how couples can work out the details there that are satisfactory, especially to women, since this is what we're focusing on, but the couple in general, what do you see?
30:30.253 --> 30:36.336
[SPEAKER_00]: I think something that Dr. Nicole said makes a lot of sense in terms of
30:37.451 --> 30:46.576
[SPEAKER_00]: many women choose to stay and build a life alongside their partner as opposed to like being in a marriage.
30:46.856 --> 30:51.418
[SPEAKER_00]: They just build a marriage kind of on the side because they don't have the option to leave.
30:52.059 --> 30:58.582
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we can't emphasize enough how much finances really play a part in this whole decision.
30:59.042 --> 31:14.794
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in a grade of course, you're not just dividing a household like you might be if you're 30, you're dividing a retirement, you're dividing a whole way of living with a whole lot less time to try and rebuild it after the fact.
31:14.994 --> 31:20.718
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the things that I see mainly is the house becomes very important.
31:21.572 --> 31:43.915
[SPEAKER_00]: Many times, I hear the women that I work with may have kids in college, they want their kids to be able to come home during those college breaks, and if they're not the bread winner, if they are not able to handle the mortgage, I always say, think about the mortgage, but think about repairs on the house, think about taxes when the taxes come due, because you get the house may not be a win.
31:44.596 --> 31:51.240
[SPEAKER_00]: and it may be relief and a way to help you get ahead to think about alternatives.
31:51.720 --> 31:54.442
[SPEAKER_00]: And I always mention renting that something I decided to do.
31:54.522 --> 31:56.303
[SPEAKER_00]: I sold my house and decided to rent.
31:56.663 --> 32:04.367
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, that made a lot of sense and freed up just brain power and assets so that I could make a better decision for myself.
32:04.848 --> 32:12.532
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, retirement, splitting 401k's or pensions usually require a whole other layer
32:14.933 --> 32:29.947
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think with any of these things that's really important to get somebody that is skilled in that area to understand what the laws are and what the rules are and what you're allowed to take in what you should expect doing that.
32:30.487 --> 32:36.350
[SPEAKER_00]: getting that information can really empower you as opposed to just kind of moving through that blind.
32:36.830 --> 32:45.594
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Social Security, if you were married for over 10 years, you may be able to claim benefits on your ex-spelces record without reducing his.
32:46.134 --> 32:48.055
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think health care expenses.
32:48.735 --> 32:53.816
[SPEAKER_00]: I was the breadwinner in my marriage, but I got my health care through my former husband.
32:53.916 --> 32:57.137
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that created a huge expense for me.
32:57.237 --> 33:01.218
[SPEAKER_00]: $13,000 a year expense that I wasn't anticipating.
33:01.278 --> 33:03.038
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's something to think about.
33:03.538 --> 33:04.579
[SPEAKER_00]: Legal costs.
33:04.759 --> 33:06.139
[SPEAKER_00]: That plays a role in it.
33:06.259 --> 33:10.800
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not only figuring out how to divide the assets, but you're paying somebody to make your assets less.
33:11.381 --> 33:11.941
[SPEAKER_00]: figure it out.
33:12.242 --> 33:22.054
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I just think there's such a wide range of things to think about that if you tried to think about it all in one day or one week it would be overwhelming.
33:22.917 --> 33:27.259
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I typically say, no all of this stuff, but don't let it overwhelm you.
33:27.640 --> 33:31.882
[SPEAKER_00]: People have moved through it before and made wise choices and you can do that, too.
33:32.482 --> 33:34.844
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can do that over time.
33:34.924 --> 33:38.486
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something that you need to pressure or rush yourself into.
33:39.006 --> 33:49.152
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that making the proper decisions require you to get information that's true and accurate, and maybe not necessarily from chat, GBT.
33:49.772 --> 33:57.598
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can actually face somebody that knows what's happening and can give you real feedback and then take your time as you try and sort this out.
33:58.858 --> 34:09.266
[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like there's can be a lot of financial insecurity and would you find Betsy that for the most part, the effect for women is greater than men.
34:10.192 --> 34:11.072
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so.
34:11.133 --> 34:17.136
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, years out of the work force in order to care give is a big part of it, lower lifetime earnings.
34:17.156 --> 34:24.580
[SPEAKER_00]: You probably have a lower 401k smaller retirement balances in all your retirement accounts and women to pickly live longer.
34:24.840 --> 34:27.581
[SPEAKER_00]: So all of those things are going to impact it.
34:27.802 --> 34:32.264
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't think that's a reason to stay, but it is a reason to plan.
34:32.824 --> 34:35.606
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a reason to be educated on all of it.
34:36.006 --> 34:42.072
[SPEAKER_00]: There are certified divorce planners that can help you really navigate some of that stuff as well.
34:42.213 --> 34:47.878
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think sometimes coming up with alternatives to just a divorce attorney could be helpful.
34:47.918 --> 34:50.842
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you could do some of that pre-work, it can lower the cost.
34:51.442 --> 34:56.749
[SPEAKER_00]: on the divorce attorney and even mediation, but if you can come to some agreements with your partner.
34:57.049 --> 35:06.441
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why I think everybody having information, everybody being fully educated on what's happening and then the two of you trying to come to some decisions together.
35:07.444 --> 35:20.111
[SPEAKER_00]: Moving forward, here is no your numbers, no every account, know how you spend, know what it actually cost you to run your household and what it may cost you to run an individual household.
35:20.651 --> 35:24.253
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that can help you to help make really educated decisions.
35:25.342 --> 35:42.872
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to double down on what Betsy just said in terms of the additional support as someone who went straight to an attorney and didn't realize that there were certified divorce counselors and even certified divorce financial analysts didn't even know that existed until I interviewed one of my podcasts.
35:43.512 --> 35:44.493
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are great.
35:45.273 --> 35:50.639
[SPEAKER_01]: individuals with professional expertise who can help you really figure out to Betsy's point.
35:50.739 --> 35:59.968
[SPEAKER_01]: What you may be owed, how to even discover the assets I remember when I had that first consultation with my attorney and she asked me what do you want?
36:00.268 --> 36:01.730
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what do you want out of the divorce?
36:02.270 --> 36:04.331
[SPEAKER_01]: my mind wasn't even on assets.
36:04.371 --> 36:11.173
[SPEAKER_01]: When you've been with someone for decades, you're still really about whatever it was that finally got you to this decision to leave.
36:11.573 --> 36:15.154
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't have the capacity to answer that question.
36:15.494 --> 36:26.678
[SPEAKER_01]: Had I worked with a financial professional first to truly understand what the assets were, what I deserved, I would have saved myself a lot of money in having those conversations with an attorney.
36:27.418 --> 36:47.812
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for doing that because I was going to ask Betsy, but maybe both of you can answer this, are there certain websites that listeners could look at whether it's a financial counselor or a divorce lawyer, certain specialists who can help women to make these decisions?
36:48.473 --> 36:50.815
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a really great website called Fresh Starts.
36:51.698 --> 36:59.303
[SPEAKER_00]: And on there, they highlight and you can search for any of these people that Dr. Nicole is mentioning as well.
36:59.383 --> 37:08.228
[SPEAKER_00]: So like any of the certified divorce financial analysts, the divorce planners, coaches, people like me that are decision coaches, like all of that stuff.
37:08.629 --> 37:13.091
[SPEAKER_00]: So you could just go in there, you can find somebody nationally or you can find somebody in your state.
37:13.111 --> 37:15.173
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can do a search and narrow it down.
37:15.593 --> 37:22.820
[SPEAKER_00]: And they also have a lot of webinars and programs and things that are free that can kind of help sort you and put you in the right direction.
37:23.780 --> 37:31.147
[SPEAKER_02]: Betsy, you are a certified master coach and it sounds like a lot of your clients are dealing with this issue.
37:31.407 --> 37:37.473
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that also a separate category that people could look up like you have a professional association?
37:38.351 --> 37:44.493
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the work that I do, I'm the founder of the Navigate Method, which helps women to make that decision to stay or go.
37:44.513 --> 37:47.513
[SPEAKER_00]: I have free resources on my website as well.
37:47.873 --> 37:50.434
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is like a newer category to be honest.
37:50.554 --> 37:53.155
[SPEAKER_00]: I find some people in my category but not a lot.
37:53.475 --> 38:02.037
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole idea of decision coaching is sort of one that's come about, I think, as times have changed and women need help making this choice in these decisions.
38:02.497 --> 38:06.358
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find out more information on my website as well around this particular thing.
38:06.718 --> 38:09.481
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are people that are listed on Fresh Starts as well.
38:09.882 --> 38:20.453
[SPEAKER_02]: And your website is, it's my name, it's Betsy Pake, like a cake, but with a P. Okay, and we can mention that again at the end of this program.
38:20.533 --> 38:28.202
[SPEAKER_02]: But Betsy, I also want to ask you, I'm sure our listeners will want to hear more about the emotional and psychological impact.
38:28.542 --> 38:29.483
[SPEAKER_02]: of great divorce.
38:29.764 --> 38:34.429
[SPEAKER_02]: People go through grief and loss, stress, anxiety, depression.
38:34.810 --> 38:41.978
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you help those that you're working with to deal with these very emotional situations that they're having?
38:42.921 --> 38:54.093
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that I have found the most interesting in my work is that women will find it very difficult to actually make a choice until they've dealt with the grief.
38:54.854 --> 38:58.758
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I have found is that the grief would include the past.
38:59.158 --> 39:01.381
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not necessarily grieving that.
39:01.481 --> 39:05.124
[SPEAKER_00]: What they're grieving is the future that they thought they would have.
39:05.665 --> 39:12.590
[SPEAKER_00]: They're grieving the idea and the potential of what they saw this marriage in their life as holding for them.
39:13.110 --> 39:23.797
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I really think until they can really deal with that, it's very difficult to be able to see what's actually happening and make good choices for yourself.
39:24.358 --> 39:26.899
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is a longer process.
39:26.960 --> 39:28.441
[SPEAKER_00]: Grief is a longer process.
39:28.781 --> 39:31.142
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a radical acceptance, right?
39:31.222 --> 39:32.884
[SPEAKER_00]: Accepting this is where I am.
39:33.704 --> 39:41.667
[SPEAKER_00]: I can be sad that I'm not going to get what I wanted, but I can also look forward and see what could be good about what is coming.
39:41.867 --> 39:45.748
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I talked about that in terms of the book club that I'm in.
39:45.928 --> 39:48.409
[SPEAKER_00]: I was married when I was in that book club originally.
39:48.429 --> 40:02.234
[SPEAKER_00]: I got divorced well, I was in the book club, and being able to see those women and having a model for what thriving could look like in your late 60s or early 70s and not having a partner was really, really helpful for me.
40:03.344 --> 40:08.586
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the grief, not only of where you've been, but of where you wanted to go, is really important.
40:09.246 --> 40:19.391
[SPEAKER_00]: There is some research that says that people going through grade divorce report a higher rate of situational depression, then people who are widowed, for example.
40:19.511 --> 40:22.932
[SPEAKER_00]: So that loss can sometimes feel a lot bigger.
40:23.452 --> 40:27.174
[SPEAKER_00]: When I got divorced, nobody created like a meal train for me.
40:28.114 --> 40:38.929
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a very isolated, I was going through a lot of stress and a heartbreak and upheaval and selling my house and moving and friends were changing and all of these things were happening.
40:39.787 --> 40:41.668
[SPEAKER_00]: And people were like, oh, she's going through a divorce.
40:41.808 --> 40:49.210
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of friends just slowly disappeared, not because they didn't like me, but they were friends that were married and things changed.
40:49.270 --> 40:52.171
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, but can be very isolating.
40:52.671 --> 40:58.073
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's even more important when you're going through that to say, like, what is my community?
40:58.153 --> 41:00.274
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I build my community now?
41:00.894 --> 41:06.436
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the best things that I ever did was I found one of those stranger meetups for dinner.
41:07.256 --> 41:08.057
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you heard of these?
41:08.397 --> 41:15.844
[SPEAKER_00]: The one that I attended was called Time Left, but you just register, and then they just tell you that morning where to show up for dinner.
41:16.385 --> 41:28.856
[SPEAKER_00]: I treated it not like I'm going to go find my best friends, although I found several really close girlfriends that way, but I treated it like I'm going to go and have a nice dinner with people and I'll get to learn about new people.
41:29.497 --> 41:35.023
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd never have a thought of myself as someone having issues with social interactions, but I was out of practice.
41:35.283 --> 41:42.610
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it helped me create space to see how I wanted to show up and interacting with new people.
41:42.791 --> 41:47.215
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I said, I met some really close girl friends that are still friends of mine to this day.
41:47.255 --> 41:49.377
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think when we really think about
41:50.178 --> 42:09.450
[SPEAKER_00]: the isolation or loneliness that is real and having a strategy and I know there's so much that you're trying to think about when you're going through a divorce, but I think having a strategy around how I want to deal with this, knowing this is going to come, how do I want to deal with this and what do I want to put in place can be really, really helpful.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I have one close girlfriend I brought out to lunch and I told her I'm going to get divorced, everybody's about to know,
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[SPEAKER_00]: like, can you be there for me?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what I need specifically.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't need you, like, you know, I would like you to bring me dinner, which would happen.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need you to be doing some big things, but I need to know I could text you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And like, this is what I need you to say.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm a coach, so I'm probably more thought out in that way, but I thought that was so helpful for me, because then I could just reach out and say, I'm feeling lonely and she would just say, you're not alone.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm right here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just that, that's all I needed and then I could turn on Ted Lasso and have my evening, I was reminded that I wasn't alone.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think also when we think about what am I able to handle while I'm going through the divorce or afterwards really depends so much on what Dr. Nicole was talking about with my health.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was important to me that I slept really well.
43:05.910 --> 43:11.591
[SPEAKER_00]: It was important to me that I had a plan for how to eat, write, and take care of myself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: like all of those things were really, really important.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I joke that when I moved into my apartment, I didn't have my coffee maker anymore.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the big things I did was I went and bought myself a really nice coffee maker.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It created ritual for my morning, you know, having that in my life, so getting really good sleep, paying attention to my food, having ritual, all of those things kind of help to create a really good like offboarding from one life and onboarding onto the next.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One quick question, I was going to ask Betsy because I think, again, in an older generation, you were really often identified by being part of a couple.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And do you think that there still is that stigma, that loss of identity, that you're no longer a married woman,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Even on the little forum, they have like widowed, single, married, divorced.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm single.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to define myself by the divorce.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't want to be stigmatized by it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if we have couple friends, if you as a couple are friends with other couples or even I know in my case,
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[SPEAKER_00]: I had friends who were married, and so maybe being around me talking about how I was leaving felt really scary to them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that not wanting to be around that makes sense, and I understood that I recognize that other people may be having their own experience and just respect that and not make that mean anything about me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then check single on my forms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I always say divorce isn't contagious because Betsy's right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, I have not experienced that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I actually have married friends who have embraced me in my single hood and invite me to events and invite me to their home, but I may be the only single or divorce woman there, which I deeply appreciate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I have friends who are afraid, not to necessarily be around me, but it definitely afraid to have conversations afraid to hear me talk about divorce.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They kind of see it as a threat.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They feel like now they have to maybe re-examine their own lives.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Nicole, I would also like to hear if you talk a little bit about how great divorce impacts adult children.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and other family members because it's not just the couple itself but it's the family members and the children who are going to have to make adjustments.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When you divorce an individual, do you divorce the family?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, as a pediatrician, I have always been really concerned about younger children and it had lots of conversations with families over the years about how do we protect our children, younger children?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a child of divorce.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was four or five when my own parents got divorced and I've been able
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[SPEAKER_01]: has significantly impacted my own life and my choices and my decision to stay in a long term.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we know that divorce impacts younger children, but the adults, the younger adults are often overlooked.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think we mistakenly assumed that because they're older, they're more resilient, or maybe they don't really care as much as not going to impact them as much.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But as someone who has
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[SPEAKER_01]: young adult children and certainly the statistics support this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They are significantly impacted by great divorce.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They envision this life where their parents would be grandparents, so their parents would come and celebrate these milestones.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And now their parents may be sitting on opposite ends of the room, if they're occupying the room.
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[SPEAKER_01]: together at all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so like Betsy talked about this idea of grieving the future, young adults are grieving this future that they imagined where their parents would participate together in these milestones.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It can make family gatherings very difficult.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thanksgiving dinners, look different, Christmas gatherings, look different, and that can have a significant impact.
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[SPEAKER_01]: on young adults, but I also would be remiss if I didn't share what my own daughters told me, they saw toxicity, they saw encounters in witnessed encounters.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that we have to make sure that we don't stay in marriages because of the children because while children are impacted by divorce, whether they're young or whether they're adults, they are also significantly impacted by unhealthy and toxic marriages.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, I feel like I gave my children a gift by choosing myself, modeling specifically for my daughters, what it looks like to make difficult decisions, what it looks like to center myself that that's not selfish.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Nicole Betsy mentioned maintaining health and wellness during the grade divorce.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What else do we need to know about what the future looks like?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's important at all ages to maintain our health and wellness, but certainly as we age and as we are combating some of the normal changes that come along with aging and things like maybe weight gain, things like elevated cholesterol, heart disease, it's really important to focus on health and wellness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The great of force is going to be a significant stressor.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It can create or trigger
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[SPEAKER_01]: onset of new illnesses or worsen chronic diseases.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's really important that we focus on our health, that we focus on getting those annual checkups, getting those screening tests for breast cancer and colon cancer and for men prostate cancer, making sure that we are eating well, making sure that we are sleeping.
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[SPEAKER_01]: making sure that we are doing the things to maintain our mental health, making sure that we're not isolating, that we are engaging with friends and family and really prioritizing the things that bring us joy, because as Betsy talked about, there is an increased risk of depression and anxiety.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, I really have focused a lot.
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[SPEAKER_01]: on my health and wellness both during the divorce journey and now post divorce losing weight and exercising more and eating better and moving my body and also things like meditation and being in nature and just being quiet and still and journaling also for me as a spiritual person prayer is a huge part of my health and wellness journey post the great divorce for me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: as someone who used to be the proverbial strong friend giving help but not receiving help.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My great of course actually helped me to really learn how to call in my community.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have witnessed an experience the most amazing gifts of support and love and invitations to do fun things just by
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[SPEAKER_01]: Taking off that mask and sharing that this has been a difficult journey and saying yes when people invite me to lunch or dinner and just allowing individuals around you to love on you and to support you has been such a huge part of my own divorce journey.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's see, what about you?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You talked a little bit already about going out and buying your own coffee pot.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Talk a little bit more about that, giving yourself time, managing stress.
50:23.511 --> 50:28.796
[SPEAKER_00]: Going through something stressful like this can flip you into survival mode.
50:29.497 --> 50:39.385
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think sometimes we think about self-care as like a spa day or whatever, but self-care and managing stress like this is really managing your nervous system.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you're acclimating your nervous system to living alone, perhaps, or, you know, living differently at the very least.
50:47.512 --> 51:02.266
[SPEAKER_00]: When I had moved in my divorce was just about final everything was settled, I went on a vacation by myself and I went and sat by the pool and ate french fries in the Bahamas and that was actually really so nourishing to me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It brought me a lot of joy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It reminded me that my life wasn't over.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I could still build new experiences.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I still had the capacity to do the things that I liked to do.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and kind of built some independence and gave me some confidence traveling by myself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing I would say is, give it a full year.
51:23.219 --> 51:26.960
[SPEAKER_00]: I talk to so many women that have been divorced six weeks and they're like, I just don't know why I don't feel right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, yeah, because you were lived with somebody for 30 years and now you've been away for six weeks.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, give it a full year.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Go through all the seasons.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Go through all the holidays.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And allow yourself space
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[SPEAKER_02]: Betsy, you mentioned talking with others because there's a lot of things to work out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So talk about support groups.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that surprised me the most, honestly, with my particular program and there's many programs like mine, we get feedback at the end and I thought for sure it's going to be my incredible curriculum.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, but it wasn't.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was the community.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was being able to be around other women who got it and they didn't need to explain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that we forget
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[SPEAKER_00]: That so many times these marriages are ending not because of one big thing, but because of what I call like death by a thousand cuts.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're talking to somebody who has no idea what you're talking about, one of your cuts can seem very insignificant and like why would that matter?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think being around divorce women that get it or a support group or program that helps you move through it, having that community,
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[SPEAKER_00]: really, really does help create some structure and make you feel like you're not cell alone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I also wanted to hear, and I think our listeners would be interested to hear if there are boundaries with an expouse.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What is that like?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when we live with somebody, and we have,
52:59.053 --> 53:02.156
[SPEAKER_00]: Historically, always run the same pattern.
53:02.276 --> 53:05.719
[SPEAKER_00]: We have always done the same behavior around them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It can be really hard not to do that behavior, even though you're separating or divorced.
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[SPEAKER_00]: A boundary is something that you decide that you're gonna do about you, not something you're going to demand of somebody else.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, he may be having an experience at your first holiday
53:27.897 --> 53:34.439
[SPEAKER_00]: And he may be pouting, and your boundary can be like, I'm going to just go into the kitchen and help.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not around the pouting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever it is, so that if your reaction in your marriage was to manage his emotion, you can opt out of that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's no longer your job.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that can be really difficult for people to no longer step into that role.
53:52.364 --> 53:53.905
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's really important to say,
53:54.845 --> 54:10.337
[SPEAKER_00]: He's doing what he's always done if that's the case and that's part of his healing and just allow it instead of judging it and just saying I'm going to do this thing a little bit differently I think really not using your children
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[SPEAKER_00]: even if they're adults, send back and forth messages or to do plans that really the parents need to do and have a boundary around what you will and won't use your kids for.
54:21.766 --> 54:30.434
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if our kids are adults, we can take them out of the equation and not use them as a pawn or even as a messengers.
54:30.554 --> 54:31.955
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be so so important.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Women who spent years taking care of everybody else will have a hard time not taking care of everybody, but step back, allow yourself to ask you, have earned it.
54:41.428 --> 54:48.458
[SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Nicole, and like 30 seconds, if you can give the recommended approach to cultivating new relationships,
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[SPEAKER_01]: So when we think about new relationships, I always think about friendships, and then I think about romantic relationships.
54:55.087 --> 55:00.293
[SPEAKER_01]: In terms of friendships, it's really the things that Betsy has talked about, support groups with like-minded women.
55:00.874 --> 55:06.820
[SPEAKER_01]: I find going out in real life has been really important for me taking it off of just the online space.
55:06.880 --> 55:09.443
[SPEAKER_01]: And then new dating relationships that could be an entirely...
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[SPEAKER_01]: different podcasts, but I will say the dating apps have been challenging and having recommendations from friends, common acquaintances might be better and also going out in real life is helpful.
55:23.117 --> 55:25.980
[SPEAKER_01]: In terms of resources, I definitely want to reiterate.
55:26.460 --> 55:29.722
[SPEAKER_01]: Fresh starts the fresh starts registry that Betsy mentioned earlier.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I also want to share my podcast, your next chapter with Dr. Nicole, where we talk about navigating disruptive life transitions, including divorce and many other things mid-life caregiving.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Final comments with you Betsy and a resources and final comment you'd like to share.
55:46.933 --> 55:51.116
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find me on Instagram at BetsyPake and I share a lot.
55:51.156 --> 55:54.798
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes just the things I share I think can be really validating for people.
55:55.319 --> 56:04.585
[SPEAKER_00]: Also on my website, I have a free master class or you can even book a call with one of my coaches for free just to kind of talk about your situation and see if it's something that we can help with.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There is really a lot out there.
56:07.107 --> 56:13.011
[SPEAKER_00]: If you kind of go out and take a look, there's a lot of people providing resources and options for you to get help.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've had a podcast for over 10 years called the Art of Living Big, and just really talks about rebuilding, and so that may be a great resource as well.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that just knowing that when you make the decision, the certainty will come after, you don't have to figure out everything all at once.
56:33.372 --> 56:38.996
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to figure it all out today, but allow yourself space to be able to take those steps forward and to heal.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we've gotten a lot of good advice today, and I want to thank Dr. Nicole Rochester, host of a podcast called Your Next Chapter, and Betsy Pate, Certified Master Coach.
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[SPEAKER_02]: For joining me today, thank you both.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This has been excellent opportunity to learn about this new topic that a lot of folks probably never thought about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you both for joining me today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: To learn more about Aging Matters, of course you can visit our website, which is Aging MattersOnline.com, and of course at this site you can access all of the Aging Matters radio programs that we produce, the TV show episodes, which are available on YouTube and on the website each month, and of course the podcast.
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[SPEAKER_02]: On Apple, Spotify, Red Circle, and other podcast sites.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So again, Aging MattersOnline.com.
57:29.345 --> 57:39.107
[SPEAKER_02]: H.Matters has produced an association with Steve Lachodio and edited by Donalak, so to learn more about that company, visit SteveLachodio.com.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for listening to H.Matters today and remember, H is just a number, not a label.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be back again with you next week.