A169 Having Better Conversations with Seth Pierce

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Hello and welcome back to absurd of
the end today. You may have noticed

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that Henry Johnson is not with us. Normally he would be, but the

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week that we're recording this which our
guests and I have been trying to schedule

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this for probably three or four months
now, so the week that we've were

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finally able to do this, unfortunately, Henry is out of town on a

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on a trip. He's actually preaching
somewhere else, and so he's out of

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town today. But we didn't want
to put off this interview and I wanted

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to make sure that that you guys
got some quality content today. So I

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am joined by Seth Pierce, who
is released a book called seeking an understanding,

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how to have difficult conversations without destroying
your relationships. He is a he's

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pastored for sixteen years, both through
the Midwest and the Pacific northwest. He

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has a PhD in communication and he's
a professor of communication and Preaching at Union

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College in Lincoln Nebraska. So He's
definitely definitely got the chops to write a

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book like this and to and to
have this conversation. and honestly, absurdity

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was started specifically so that we could
learn to have better conversations and maybe by

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listening to this and listening to a
hundred and sixty some odd episodes we've released

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up to now, that maybe you've
learned from me what not to do and

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maybe you've learned from me what to
do. And so that's the goal,

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is that we all learn and grow
together. So Seth, welcome to the

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show man. How you doing?
Good, thank you so much, but

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let it be here after all the
you know, trying to get together the

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last few months, like you said. Yeah, I know, I mean

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the last one we were so close. I was five minutes late, you

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were here and then you had to
run and I think you rubbed off on

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bad luck on me. You had
to run because someone left their keys in

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their car, and I've done that
twice since that message. Yeah, new

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pandemic lock themselves the other car now. Yeah, yeah, it was.

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What's sad to me is it never
happened to me. I think I've done

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it one time my entire life,
and suddenly it's happened two or three times

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in the last like six months and
I'm upset. So I'm a little I'm

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a little little bummed about it.
So you release this book and and and

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I like starting here. We're talking
about how to have better conversations and some

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of the principles that you've outlined in
your book. And yes, I did

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buy a copy, so know,
and this isn't like a sponsored thing,

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this isn't like you know, he
didn't send me a free one and I'm

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going to give a review or anything
like that this. I bought it myself,

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I read it and I am excited
to to dive into this a bit.

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But I do want to start here. What has been an unexpected outcome

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since writing this book. So I'm
going to answer this and kind of a

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strange way and stop throwing shade at
any of my friends, but one of

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the things that has shocked me as
having super close friends by it, love

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it and post reviews on Amazon and
talk to me about it. And that's

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not that I don't have supportive friends
or family, but sometimes when you're really

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close to somebody there's such a familiarity
you're not maybe in a hurry like.

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Well, I talk to them,
I kind of what they have to say.

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But when the book came out,
I was having close friends of mine

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text me and email me and message
me on social media so I would really

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like this is helpful. I'm buying
it for my church, I get for

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my leaders and I guess I didn't
quite expect that swift of support and and

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even if, you know, people
buy the book and enjoy it, just

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the taking the initiative, being really
intentional letting me know that the contents are

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valuable, which I really really appreciate
it. Yeah, I was. Yeah,

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and that's been super awesome to see
that happened. That's really cool because

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I know so. I work a
lot in content creation, obviously, and

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I think one of the biggest things
that people worry about is how they're what

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their friends will think or how their
friends will judge them, and that actually

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that even stopped me from doing certain
things that now I finally embrace doing on

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my own social media of really kind
of going into a I now do podcast

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coaching and mentoring and creating content around
that has been a new thing that I've

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done this year, but for the
longest time I didn't want to do that.

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I hated self promotion because I felt
uncomfortable. I felt like it was

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alienating people. Are What would my
friends think of me? But the bottom

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line is like, if this is
what I want to do when I'm pasionate

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about I'm going to do it.
And so to see someone whose friends have

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responded positively, when they've gone in
the direction of producing content, which is

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a risk in and of itself,
yeah, that's really, really cool to

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see that. So I do want
to I do want to ask this question

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just as a means of helping to
understand this. I think they're for some

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people. I think one question they
asked when they see a book is,

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and I know I've asked this before, maybe it's just me, I don't

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know now. So maybe I'm asking
this for me, but they just think,

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okay, so this is a really
good topic and yes, you do

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have the academic credentials, but why? Why did you specifically write this book?

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Why did you feel like this was
you and not I'm going to go

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to someone and convinced them to write
it or you know, I this is

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just you know, what made you
feel that this was what you needed to

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do? Yeah, so this book
was born out of my context as a

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pastor of a larger, Multi Staff
Church and the Pacific Northwest, at a

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time where a whole bunch of social
issues were erupting. We have the black

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lives matter, you know, movement. We have a black lives matter movement.

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Me To the election seasons that we've
been going through, you know,

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within a conservative Christianity, the debates
about the LGBTQ, you know, community,

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all all these and more showing up. But what I was finding as

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a pastor is, you know,
we'd come to church and we'd have a

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nice service, we'd have pot luck, every already together. Things are fine,

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and then I go look at my
social media, typically facebook, and

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watch these same people who just sat
together and prayed together and saying together,

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just skewing each other. And not
just my church, but you know,

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church as I'd passed before, my
colleagues, churches, family methters of mine,

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and of course I've gotten roped into
it. I'm just as guilty,

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you know, getting pulled into certain
debates and and reacting in a way as

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where, at the end of the
day, you like this isn't healthy.

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We have to be able to do
better than this, and then trying to

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figure out how do I, how
do we do this, because everyone is

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coming at it from so many different
places, so many different experiences. Not

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Everybody has the same language base.
They don't know the terminology. Some do,

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some don't, and so it really
became a necessity from me as a

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pastor, saying we've got this elephant
in the room, the all this tension

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that's here. We all know it's
there, we can all feel it,

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and yet no one's talking about it. So how, how is a pastor

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and a communicator, can can I
approach this to make our church community healthier,

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to make these relationships healthier, and
even challenging myself, how can I?

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Yeah, who's, you know,
in the middle of my PhD on

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the academic side of things. How
do I apply this stuff? How do

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I how do I make this relevant
and real? So that's that's from the

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context that, yeah, move me
to write the book. No, as

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I I can resonate with you,
I only have just a couple of years

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of pastoral experience before I shifted into
into college ministry work, and I see

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it in college students too. But
Man, those two years that I was

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pastoring in a small rural town outside
of South Carolina, I saw it so

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much. I saw it in members, I saw it outside of of them,

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you know, outside of my churches
as well. I see it online

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in certain circles and I see it
from all sides of the aisle. This

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isn't a you know, this isn't
a one size or one specific group that

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has a problem. It's all of
us that I think our have been approaching

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conversations, and I really in a
dangerous way, and I think social media

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plays a significant part in that.
I I think social media taught us to

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do what we used to do in
private in public, and what I mean

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by that is normally, I think
when when we had new cycles the way

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we used to have them, and
not just twenty four hour news that you

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can access whenever, wherever, as
well as access to a platform to share

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your thoughts, you used to have
something, used to hear about something,

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used to process it may be,
process it among friends and then you would

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probably publish a response on like a
my space blog back then, or friends

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stir or facebook back in the day, but you didn't react immediately. But

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now all of the processing is actually
done publicly, yes, and I think

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that causes that there's no room to
really actually have nuance when you're processing.

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Right. There's a whole branch of
communication studies called Media Ecology, and a

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lot of times people take an instrumentalist, to be of technologies thing. It

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looks just a tool. You can
use it for good or bad. Or

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they take a look at specific content
on like whether it's Netflix or whether it's

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Lu or facebook or twitter, whatever. mediacologists take a look at the whole

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environment. They would ask the question, okay, what is you know,

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the era radio, back when it
was like the you know medium. What

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it? What is it doing to
us? What it's doing to human consciousness?

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How is it telling us to think? And so, you know,

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speeding up to the present day or
when this sort of digital hype link Mixed

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Reality Environment, one of the questions
that comes up is what is the tendency

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of this technology? How is it
shaping our communication, media ecology, the

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environment that we're in? And I
think you you nailed it, and that

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it is it privileges a speed and
reaction overthoughtful reflection and so and people monetize

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it. I mean our range in
our victorol is bankable with you know,

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there's clip, you know, like
like Click Bait. You know, we

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know how to provoke people and we
can spark these massive fights and a thread

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and that's that's hits, that's content, that's you know that. You know,

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whoever is running the platform is is
gaining from that, and it's not

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that I'm certainly I'm on social media
and I hope people will listen this,

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will follow me, but it's I
think there's has to be a little bit

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of caution, you know, with
the content that we create online and how

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we respond to that content. But
because we're in this environment, we're in

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this media ecology, it's our normal, it's just how we operate, and

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so part of this book and other
books, you know like it, is

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trying to call people to step out
a little bit as far as possible,

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to ask the questions what I when
I get into this space? What is

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it doing to me? What's it
doing to my emotions, what's it doing

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to my mind, and how is
it shifting the way I communicate and relate

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to people? Yeah, I think
that's huge and I did not know that

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media ecology. I had figured it
was like a steel the Suy. Just

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didn't know. I didn't have a
name for it or any frame of reference.

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But that is interesting to think for
sharing that I learned something here to

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the the the interesting thing with this
that I'm that I'm now curious to see

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how it plays out. is in
the wake of the pandemic, we're seeing

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a lot of people quit their jobs
because they're tired of being exploited as workers

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right and there's a lot of people
that are saying I'd rather unemployment benefits played

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into this a lot when people realized
it wasn't worth working. Now the same

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dead end and terrible job where customers
treat me terribly, my boss treats me

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terribly, not worth it for a
wage that's less than livable, and so

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you're seeing a lot of people tired
of being exploited as workers, but are

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still existing and interacting on social media
in a way that is exploited by those

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that own those platforms, and I'm
interested to see if any of this kind

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of carries as a threat of consistency
from the professional life to the personal life

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and semi public life. As far
as social media's concern, I'm interested to

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see if there will be any sort
of correlation there or causation there, but

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just food for thought. Yeah,
so how would you how would you define

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a conversation? We usually start there, but I've wanted to ask those other

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questions first this time. But I
want to start there mainly because I think

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that there is there's a problem when
we you and I may talk about a

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term, but if we haven't set
a common understanding what that term is,

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we may be obviously missing the boat
or, on listening, may have a

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different understanding of it. So I
like to set kind of a ground rule,

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for ground definition, so that we're
all operating on the same space and

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on the same wavelength. So Yeah, how would you define a conversation and

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when is it a conversation instead of
a debate or argument? Really good question

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and one thing that ends up happening
to how we use the term conversation can

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sometimes be ominous. You know,
we need to have a conversation, which

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is usually means there's not going to
be much of a conversation. It's going

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to be one sided, a really
simple definition and then all unpack a little

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bit. Is A conversation has the
goal of learning, not winning. So

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when I entered the conversation it's really
just about exploring it topics. So for

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when I sit down with a colleague
in my field or another pastor or somebody

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who we're going to talk about two
sides of whatever issue it is, when

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we know it's a conversation. We're
really here just just to learn from each

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other. I'm not going in to
score points or to make myself look good.

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I'm really genuinely wanting to learn.
It's a place where I can ask

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questions. You know I'm not going
to be sincere less, since your questions

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not not rhetorical questions or got you
questions, and someone's going to know that.

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Okay, they're asking this question from
a place of ignorance and genuine interest.

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I'm wanting to know and I'm not
going to get on them for maybe

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asking unknowingly, you know, a
tone deaf question. But a debate and

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an argument you're really going into to
prove a point, to win, to

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emerge with a winner and a loser, and that's that. That's how I

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would sort of put the difference.
There is it's learning, not winning.

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That's a good one. Learning not
winning. I like that. I actually

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say the way that I frame it
is a little bit differently. I like

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to frame it as a conversation.
Happens when you care more about the other

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person than you do the point you're
trying to make? Yeah, and I

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think that there is a and basically
what that it loosely translate to some translates

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to something similar in that you know, if you care more about the point

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you make and you care more about
winning and being right, can you do

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the person you're conversing with, and
there either their personal growth or your personal

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growth, and so I think there's
there's some some synergy there. So I'm

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glad I'm not off on the on
some wild, off beaten path. Know,

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and there's that old aporism, you
know, people don't care what you

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know until I know how much you
care. It's the same kind of principle

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of work, you know, where
I'm wanting to really know and understand you.

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I want to hold you a high
regard, I want I want to

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care about what's important to you,
and so when we enter into a conversation

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there's this mutual regard and respect.
It's not going in to fight an opponent.

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HMM. So how do you navigate
the conversations where both parties actually do

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operate or are operating from different knowledge
bases? So framing is in terms of

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how I developed my book, and
this is kind of where I was as

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a pastor and many times, whether
it's the classroom that I'm in now or

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I'm guest speaking and you get into
conversations after after presentations. I think the

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place you have to start as walking
it back to whether a is a green

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mints. So whatever issue it is, you know you've got to kind of

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walk it back. He often we
jump right into a debate. Again,

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people are at different levels, different
using different terms and understandings of different experiences,

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and so to jump right into it
usually just creates more chaos. And

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so if you can walk it back
a bit, and so let's, for

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example, let's take the issue of
racism, before jumping into it from the

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pulpit, you know, I walked
it back to just the issue of power

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in general. You know what is
power? How is power abused, you

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know, and slowly, you know, building it to where people could say,

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oh now, I understand. You
Know How racism is connected to power

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and systems and different things like that. But we had to walk all the

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way back just a basic definition.
What is power? Power exists? What

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is power? How do we use
power? Doesn't our get abused other systems

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of power, you know. And
so just once we could kind of get

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there. Some of those contentious attitude
and certainly not all. You can't win

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everybody you know. But but a
lot of them melted away and people were

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really listening and processing some of this
stuff and saying, okay, well,

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I can see how the debate I
was engaged with, I was talking past

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it the other person. I think
if we walk it back and figure or

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we agree, we can proceed from
there and then when you do reach a

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disagreement, you can pause and sale
let's let's take time to listen. Now

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we're not. We're kind of getting
out of the debate mode in too.

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Let's ask some questions of each other, other books or videos or things that

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we want to recommend to each other
to learn, and then we can come

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back and make sure that we understand
the other person before we disagree with them

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now. I love it. I
absolutely do love it, and I love

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the idea of taking a second to
say hey, wait a minute, I

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think we might be we might be
operating in different spaces here. Let's try

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and figure out some harmony first or
some common ground and then move from there.

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And I think this is actually the
trouble with a lot of with a

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lot more public speaking gigs, and
why I think a lot of people get

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a lot in a lot more trouble
with public speaking is simply because you,

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if you are, if you spend
more time doing public speaking than you do

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in personal conversations about your topic or
with with people who are not just in

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your circle, I think you sometimes
get a kind of monolithic view of your

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topic and a monolithic way or a
you know, just just yeah, I

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think that still works, a monolithic
way of communicating your points, and so

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you lack the nuance and you lack
the care and empathy for people who have

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had different experiences. You know,
the way that someone talks about, for

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example, with me, my father
died when I was seventeen years old of

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a heart attack, and the way
that someone talks to me who knows that

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fact is different than the way someone
who doesn't know that fact talks to me.

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Yes, and that is something I
actually very much. Well, I

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won't get it. That one's a
little bit unrelated, but the the point

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being that I the seeking common ground
and understanding someone else's experiences really, I

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think, help shape a conversation and
really helped create something better from it and

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allow for better outcomes. I think. Yeah, so for sure, I'm

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one of the things I mentioned in
the book and when I go and speak

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and do consulting work. I mentioned. This is what the talks that I'll

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do. But there's a old communication
theory called the meaning of meaning and I

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won't deep dive into it here,
but but the idea is that the meaning

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behind words are inherent people, not
the words themselves. And so when you

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throw in terms like feminism or racism
or Christianity or seventh day adventism or whatever,

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whatever it is, we all bring
these different experiences into the table and

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so when I hear that word,
I'm already working from a different definition based

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on my experience with that term,
and I think public speakers can forget that.

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Will throw words out there assuming that
the audience is starting from the same

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ground and they're not very, very
different experiences which flavor certain words differently.

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And what I found many, many
times is people white privilege is a great

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example of a term that can be
taken very, very differently. So when

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you're talking about white privilege, you're
looking at the privileges that come with having,

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you know, white skin. You
know and a lot of people and

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they hear that, Oh, you
think I'm a racist and a horrible person

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like that's not that's not how we're
using that term and so well. But

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again, when you're starting, when
one person starting from a social dynamic of

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looking at stomach racism or certain norms
within a culture that benefit others and not

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but that benefits someone other people and
somebody else their termined. They think,

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well, you're calling me, you
know this horrific thing, and like that's

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that's not that's not what we're doing. But by that time we're off to

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the races and everyone's fighting. Um, yeah, Yep, absolutely. So

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here's an interesting thing that I that
I've wondered and I think it's something that

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is really, really important, but
I don't think enough people give enough time

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or enough consideration to which is and
it's one of the most frustrating things I've

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experienced, because I like to think
that I try to come at conversations from

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from a place of openness, quite
often and honestly being when one of my

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closest friends left Christianity and became an
atheist, after we staying friends with him

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through the militant atheist phase of his
d conversion, and then now coming to

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the other side of that, where
we both have this common agreement and understanding

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or conversations are so much better now, and that true. That taught me

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a lot about understanding where someone else
is coming from and has really impacted the

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way that I have conversations. But
one of the things that I really struggle

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with is if I've read your book, and I am this is just an

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example, but if I've read your
book and now I want to approach my

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conversations differently, how do I how
do I do so when someone else hasn't

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and doesn't have the same view of
conversations? How do I have conversations with

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people who don't see it this way
or who don't even notice see it this

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way, and how do I win
them into that format? How do I

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invite someone into that mindset and and
to transition a conversation into something more meaningful

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that doesn't destroy the relationship? Yeah, there's a couple things you can do,

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and I again that we're winning.
You know comes up and I think

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when you're in a situation like this, to go from a place I've got

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to win them to the it's not
going to work, because then it's going

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to become manipulation. I need to
get them into this so I can,

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you know, have the conversation that
I want to have in a and that's

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kind of the the there's a fine
line betwe manipulation of persuasion. Persuasion is,

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you know, I've got the interest
of both parties in mind and even

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though I think it's a good,
you know, goal to let's have a

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healthy conversation, when someone doesn't want
to do that, if they're just dead

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set against it, I can't force
them into it. And looking at the

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emotional atmosphere of a conversation, if
someone clearly, whether it's because of trauma

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or pain or they're working through whatever
experience they're currently going through, they can't

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hear it, I can't force them
to. And so at that time,

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and I've been in conversations they ended
up going quite long, but the other

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person just need to sort of verbally
dump and vomit all this pain and angst

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about whatever the issue was. I
just listened. I just asked some questions

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and lesson. So I could die
for my side of the conversation. I

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could I could choose to be listening
and not necessarily agreeing with their saying if

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I disagreed with it, but asking
clarifying questions, rephrasing what they said to

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make sure you know my understanding you
correctly. And so you feel this way

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and and this. Let them kind
of work through and off and not all

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the time, but often someone just
has to get all that out, you

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know, before you can start having
a healthy conversation. You know, most

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thing, you know somebody who's gone
through a deconversion experience, which can be

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very traumatic and earth shattering and frightening
and confusing and all the other things.

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There are moments, whether it's a
deconversion of faith or whether it's, you

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know, whatever kind of transition you
were kind of. This person is in

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a place where their processing a lot
and to try to bypass all the things

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that they have to feel to work
through whatever this new reality is for them.

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I have to let them process and
I can be there with them to

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process, but maybe I need to
postpone this conversation to another time. HMM.

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I Love I love the willingness to
postpone. I think that is huge

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and I think a lot of us
don't take the opportunity to do that and

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don't there's a rule in sales that
when you're when you're when you're running a

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business or you're trying to close a
deal and trying to negotiate a sale and

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a price, that the power lies
in the person who's willing to say now.

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Yeah, the power lies in the
person who can walk away. And

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as long as you don't and as
long as you aren't able to say now

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and walk away, the other person
always has power. Ever, if you

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can't say no to this deal because
you need the money, then they get

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to determine the price. Yeah,
and in the same way, if you

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can't say no to a conversation when
it becomes inappropriate or when it can't be

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you know, when it can't be
transitioned from inappropriate to appropriate, then as

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long as you were unwilling to say
no and postpone it to another time,

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then you're allowing the other person to
determine how you will interact with them and

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your that's to me, that says
that's that's a sign of an unhealthy boundary.

360
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Yeah, that that someone else gets
to have that kind of of control,

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and you might say the other way
around. I guess that that if

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I'm saying I won't have a conversation
on anything but my terms, as different.

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But I think the I don't think
that's the same thing, because what

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I'm trying to do is have a
conversation where we have where we both are

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mutually respecting each other. And if
I can do that for you but you

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can't do that for me, then
it's not a conversation. Right, right.

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And then I gets into well,
I think from a Christian perspective,

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I mean even Jesus tells the disciples, I've got more things to tell you,

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but you're not. You're not ready, yet, ready for this.

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And you know when he sends them
out and they they're not welcome. You

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know, kick the dust off your
sandals. Are certainly boundaries and every healthy

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relationship and relationship and conversations, and
we've got to be aware enough to say

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this, this conversation isn't going well
or this interaction is becoming toxic and I

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could keep pushing it, but it's
just going to get worse and so it

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maybe I need to step can sometimes
it means it's just completely, you know,

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separating something. I'm not whether I
can have this conversation or even interact

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with this person depending on ugly kids. Another times, like I mentioned,

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I have a specific instance in mind
where someone just because of all kinds of

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pain just kind of launched into this
dump of decades of pain, and I

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could push back on things and if
I but I recognize that this is this

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is not that time, and I
could even say formally, you know,

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hey, this is not how I
want to have a conversation, but at

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that point that wouldn't have gone well. I just need to be sit and

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listen and empathize, you know,
with what they were going through and it's

385
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some level realized probably have nothing to
do with me. This is somebody who

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is hurting, you know, and
just need someone to be there with them

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and then listen to their pain without
running away, as long as, of

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course, it doesn't turn ugly and
into personal attacks and things. That's a

389
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little bit different. Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree more, and I

390
00:26:10.539 --> 00:26:14.660
do want to ask you know one
of the ways to do that is actually,

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would say, arguably, the only
way to really be able to do

392
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that is to be able to step
back or step out and away for one

393
00:26:22.130 --> 00:26:26.089
frame or one phrase I've always heard
is you were too close to the fire

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to see, to see anything else
and to be able to step back.

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You were too heated and you were
too to zeroed in into narrow focus.

396
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And you can't see the bigger picture. So when someone is is in those

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moments, how do they actually take
a step back? What does that look

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like and how can we remind ourselves
to do that, or how can we

399
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.269
figure out or identify the moments where
we're not doing it? It's a good

400
00:26:48.309 --> 00:26:52.869
question reword at one more time when
thinking about it. Yeah, basically,

401
00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:56.910
just you know, if we're if
one of the most important things to having

402
00:26:56.910 --> 00:27:00.750
a conversation is being able to step
back and see the bigger picture or be

403
00:27:00.789 --> 00:27:03.059
able to step back and see the
bigger picture of the other person's experience and

404
00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:07.740
story as well. Right in those
moments where you say I need to listen

405
00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:11.380
and empathize, I this is clearly
you know, you remind yourself that this

406
00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:15.569
isn't about you, rather than taking
their anger and vitriol as as a personal

407
00:27:15.609 --> 00:27:18.569
attack, which is what most of
us would do at a comment section is,

408
00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:22.210
is take it as a personal attack. Right. So how do you

409
00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:27.890
step back or how do you start
to identify our how can you identify those

410
00:27:27.970 --> 00:27:33.119
moments and and let that help you
guide and respond in a loving and Christian

411
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:37.839
way? Yeah, one principle,
and some of this is just intuitive,

412
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.000
when you're in there, you know, you just hopefully, as you read,

413
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:44.240
to use kind of sense. Like
I think this is about something else.

414
00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:49.349
One thing I've noticed people, whether
a pastoring or in the classroom,

415
00:27:49.750 --> 00:27:55.589
is when someone is investing a massive
amount of emotional energy into something that's really

416
00:27:55.670 --> 00:27:59.619
not that important. Now, clearly
issues of racism and prejudice and sexist those

417
00:27:59.619 --> 00:28:03.019
are big things and they need our
energy in and are anger and everything else

418
00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:07.140
and our passion directed at it.
But there's things where you know a paper

419
00:28:07.180 --> 00:28:12.089
might get handed back a day later
than they thought, or somebody you know

420
00:28:12.369 --> 00:28:15.569
is is making up silly examples on
the top of my head, but ye

421
00:28:15.009 --> 00:28:18.529
didn't get the right parking spot at
Walmart, and theyre just explode about everything.

422
00:28:18.529 --> 00:28:22.609
You're like this, this is really
not that big of a crisis.

423
00:28:22.690 --> 00:28:27.440
But so you kind of gage this
person's emotional response. Or if you meet

424
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:30.960
someone for coffee, say it just
just a casual meeting. We're just going

425
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.359
to catch up, talk about you
know, sports, the weather, movies,

426
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.960
and they all of a sudden is
launch into something just strong, pivot

427
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:41.309
with no warning and they're just sort
of Ragie or weepy. You're like,

428
00:28:41.390 --> 00:28:47.190
okay, something something is going on
here that has that that is deeper than

429
00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:52.069
maybe the surface level conversation were happening
and I need to listen and other times

430
00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:55.940
to you recognize if this gets into, and this kind of gets into to

431
00:28:56.779 --> 00:29:00.900
boundaries where we draw the line on
conversations. If a conversation turns to personal

432
00:29:00.940 --> 00:29:04.700
attacks on someone's integrity, on their
intelligence, it gets personally nasty, then

433
00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:07.900
you can say, you know,
I am happy to have a conversation,

434
00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:11.450
but a topic, but I'm not
going to be called names, not going

435
00:29:11.490 --> 00:29:14.250
to be shamed. I can do
any of this kind of stuff. So

436
00:29:14.329 --> 00:29:17.490
I'm available to talk, but if
this is how the conversation I've had to

437
00:29:17.529 --> 00:29:21.130
do this on facebook and in person
and you should be very blunt sometimes,

438
00:29:21.170 --> 00:29:25.200
and not rude, but blunt.
And often, if someone's really on a

439
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.039
roll, you have to put your
hand up, give him a visual cute

440
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:29.920
is kind of raise your hands out. I'm sorry, but the how this

441
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.839
is going is just personally ugly.
And we're not even talking about the top

442
00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.680
anymore. We're talking about you know
that you think I'm dumb, or you

443
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:40.349
hit the school I went to or
whatever like that. We're not even on

444
00:29:40.470 --> 00:29:45.470
topic anymore. So that's that's when
I've extracted myself from conversations. That's when

445
00:29:45.509 --> 00:29:48.430
I when I've seen other people get
into this on on some of my social

446
00:29:48.470 --> 00:29:51.869
media posts, I've had to step
in a moderate and say, Hey,

447
00:29:51.910 --> 00:29:53.019
you know, we can have,
we need to have passionate discussion, but

448
00:29:53.059 --> 00:29:57.740
if I see name calling and just
personal attacks, so what happens? The

449
00:29:57.740 --> 00:30:03.180
conversation moves to I'm defending myself now. We're not even talking about whatever it

450
00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:04.460
was that we're talking about. I
have to. I have now defend,

451
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:08.089
you know, my education and my
upbringing in this in this moss, and

452
00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:11.130
we're not even. We're not where
we've left the issue. And that isn't

453
00:30:11.130 --> 00:30:15.730
to say that our personal stories don't
belong in conversations about issues, but there's

454
00:30:15.730 --> 00:30:22.799
certainly a way that it becomes more
about attacking the person than then exploring the

455
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:26.119
issue. And then and then it
never I've never seen it under well.

456
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.799
People just leave ugly and rinking and
angry and and unfortunate. I've had to

457
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:34.000
boot people off and block people,
as we all probably have in social media,

458
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:40.109
and someone's just determined to take personal
shots at others. And I'm sorry,

459
00:30:40.109 --> 00:30:44.069
you know this. This isn't healthy
for anybody and and it's a privilege

460
00:30:44.150 --> 00:30:48.509
to be able to have these conversations
and if you can't follow, you know,

461
00:30:48.630 --> 00:30:52.779
basic rules of kindness, you know, then we have to suspend the

462
00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:57.420
conversation. Yeah, I couldn't agree
more. I one of the things so

463
00:30:59.019 --> 00:31:03.059
absurdity has recently gotten a lot more
attention on youtube, which, for podcasting,

464
00:31:03.220 --> 00:31:07.369
means that I actually get feedback on
episodes now. It means that people

465
00:31:07.369 --> 00:31:15.210
can leave comments and respond and I
am always open to hearing descent and disagreement

466
00:31:15.250 --> 00:31:18.160
and I'm always open to someone,
you know, jumping in and letting us

467
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.400
know what they think and what they
believe, and I typically don't have an

468
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:26.160
issue with that. But the second
that it becomes insulting, in the second

469
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.640
it becomes inappropriate or disrespectful, then
I go you know what, Naugh I'm

470
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:34.269
good this. I don't want that
on, I don't want that in this

471
00:31:34.349 --> 00:31:38.549
discussion. I don't want that included
in this discussion. And it's just a

472
00:31:38.670 --> 00:31:41.950
boundary that you have two set.
I think, man, if I could

473
00:31:41.990 --> 00:31:47.380
even rewinder take a step back further, I feel like in order to have

474
00:31:47.539 --> 00:31:51.420
good or better conversations, we need
to understand what our boundaries are. HMM,

475
00:31:51.819 --> 00:31:53.019
for sure, and I've actually taken
time to set them. What do

476
00:31:53.059 --> 00:31:57.660
you think about that? Yeah,
absolutely, and this gets into a really

477
00:31:57.700 --> 00:32:01.609
important point about preparing. How do
we have these conversations? And all of

478
00:32:01.650 --> 00:32:08.289
us have triggers on the variety of
subjects and experiences, and so we know

479
00:32:08.450 --> 00:32:12.569
like these, these the the topics
that will trigger me, these are the

480
00:32:12.650 --> 00:32:14.970
issues, the statements, they're going
to the are going to send me from

481
00:32:15.170 --> 00:32:19.400
zero two hundred and sixty in one
second and I have a danger of losing,

482
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:22.640
you know, control over my emotions
when I get into these type of

483
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:28.240
topics. So identifying those is huge
and then even writing some responses down.

484
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:30.150
When I hear this statement, when
I hear this comment made, you know

485
00:32:31.190 --> 00:32:35.470
my knee jerk reaction is going to
be to, you know, go after

486
00:32:35.549 --> 00:32:37.230
this person. Instead. What do
I want to be able to say when

487
00:32:37.269 --> 00:32:39.630
I teach? In our cultural communication
we talk about this all the time.

488
00:32:39.750 --> 00:32:44.940
You know, when you get into
the moment of conflict around you, know,

489
00:32:45.099 --> 00:32:52.660
huge issues of prejudice and and all
kinds of things, it's very easy

490
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:57.059
to just kind of lose your track
of thought and just to get into that

491
00:32:57.140 --> 00:32:59.650
personal attack mode and so taking time
to say, you know, these are

492
00:32:59.690 --> 00:33:01.890
the common statements that I hear that
will trigger me. How do I want

493
00:33:01.890 --> 00:33:06.089
to respond to them? And and
writing those out and commit getting into memories

494
00:33:06.089 --> 00:33:07.490
thing. I am prepared for when
this comes up. I know how I'm

495
00:33:07.529 --> 00:33:12.450
going to respond to this. I
also think too, and this may be

496
00:33:12.529 --> 00:33:15.200
taking a step back a little bit, of the personal attack thing, to

497
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:19.720
when someone offers you a correction.
You know, when you miss step,

498
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:22.319
and we all do it, you
know, we'll have an unfortunate phrase.

499
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.839
You know, we, out of
our own ignorance, will say something or

500
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:30.589
quote old stats or whatever it is, and someone offers you a correction,

501
00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:31.829
not NASTM's hey, you know,
can I just pause? I think.

502
00:33:31.869 --> 00:33:34.910
I think what you meant to say
was this or, you know, kind

503
00:33:34.950 --> 00:33:38.309
of comment on the analogy you made, not taking it personally, you know,

504
00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:42.180
and seeing it as a gift,
saying this person cares enough about me

505
00:33:42.819 --> 00:33:45.339
to to, you know, call
a time out and say, I want

506
00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:47.140
to make sure that was we're communicating
that you're using the best, you know,

507
00:33:47.259 --> 00:33:52.660
material there is, and I've had
conversations with other colleagues and friends and

508
00:33:52.779 --> 00:33:53.819
students who I've checked into with and
saying, you know, I'm going to

509
00:33:53.859 --> 00:34:00.170
teach a lesson, for example,
on Hispanic. You know, Latino Culture,

510
00:34:00.170 --> 00:34:04.410
and I have my Hispanic Latino students
and I'll say if I if I

511
00:34:04.529 --> 00:34:07.570
say something that's wrong, that sounds
fuzzy, you know, based on your

512
00:34:07.730 --> 00:34:10.599
experience. Please, you know,
give me a correction to let me just

513
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:14.199
keep, you know, on the
wrong tracks. So inviting that, Cain,

514
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.519
that's not in a personal attack.
That's US talking together and making sure

515
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:22.039
our our content is is accurate.
So also running down when someone corrects me,

516
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.909
in a spirit of helpfulness and kindness
learn, how do I want to

517
00:34:25.949 --> 00:34:30.269
respond? As far as you know, is appreciating it and embracing it.

518
00:34:30.389 --> 00:34:37.309
And if it and if the correction
seems maybe off, I'm not convinced of

519
00:34:37.349 --> 00:34:38.579
it, how do I still want
to respond graciously. You know what,

520
00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:42.300
that's a good point. I haven't
thought about that. I think about that

521
00:34:42.340 --> 00:34:44.099
for well, thank you for letting
me know and I may go back and

522
00:34:44.179 --> 00:34:47.219
research it. And Yeah, so
that that's important to know. The other

523
00:34:47.380 --> 00:34:54.530
thing in preparation for these conversations is
knowing where our knowledge base ends and so

524
00:34:54.730 --> 00:34:59.010
we can get into a conversation and
I think what ends up turning, turning

525
00:34:59.050 --> 00:35:00.570
it ugly off. And as we
come to the end of our knowledge base

526
00:35:00.650 --> 00:35:04.809
on the particular topic, and I've
gotten I've got no more data to draw

527
00:35:04.849 --> 00:35:07.760
from, I have no more experiences, I have no quotes, I have

528
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:10.159
no I have no, nothing,
and so now I'm just going to get

529
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:15.559
mad me and go after this.
That's and that happens a lot, and

530
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.920
what we need to do is say, you know, that's I need to

531
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:22.349
take some more time before I continue
to engage. I'm interested in your in

532
00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:25.869
your perspective. What books you know? Do you could you recommend? What

533
00:35:25.989 --> 00:35:29.469
podcast can I listen to? And
then lets maybe, let's meet a couple

534
00:35:29.469 --> 00:35:31.230
weeks we can keep talking. So
you really have to invest the time on

535
00:35:31.269 --> 00:35:36.619
learning, you identifying those areas where
I know, whatever it is might be

536
00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:38.059
an intimidating topic, but I've got
to start, you know, somewhere.

537
00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:42.460
So I need to devote maybe half
an hour day, an hour day,

538
00:35:42.579 --> 00:35:45.900
to reading up on this and knowing
what this topic is. mean the big

539
00:35:45.940 --> 00:35:49.219
one now that's flying around everywhere.
It's critical race theory. And Yep,

540
00:35:49.940 --> 00:35:52.929
nine times out of ten, the
person has, you know, has no

541
00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:55.889
idea what it really is where it
came from? Who the author's word that

542
00:35:55.969 --> 00:36:00.650
helped develop it. They just go
based on these sort of media clips and

543
00:36:00.730 --> 00:36:05.760
shoot him out there. I mean
our governor, you know, just tweeted,

544
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:08.760
you know, that it's anti American
and then define it. Didn't say

545
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:15.239
what he meant by that. It
just it just fuels more, more anger

546
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:20.469
and confusion. So so if I'm
in a situation where I keep hearing a

547
00:36:20.510 --> 00:36:23.070
term like critical race theory flow of
flying around, I don't know what it

548
00:36:23.230 --> 00:36:25.949
is. I've just heard it mentioned. That's my q to say. You

549
00:36:25.989 --> 00:36:29.949
know, I'm maybe to start with
Wikipedia, open that up, see who

550
00:36:30.030 --> 00:36:31.349
the key thinkers are and we'd some
of their articles and works. And so

551
00:36:31.429 --> 00:36:35.500
when I do get into a conversation, actually know a little bit of what

552
00:36:35.539 --> 00:36:38.900
I'm talking about. But that's time
and again and that media ecology that wants

553
00:36:39.059 --> 00:36:43.579
need and reaction. I don't have
time to go read journal articles and books,

554
00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:44.900
you know, I just need to
go. I need to go fight

555
00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:47.449
and on the thread, you know, that's where he and that's we have

556
00:36:47.650 --> 00:36:53.010
to resist that. Yeah, not
every thread needs you. That's one.

557
00:36:53.210 --> 00:36:55.809
That's one of the things that I
had to learn from myself. I would

558
00:36:55.809 --> 00:37:00.969
jump into these conversations all the time, and I think what really transformed them

559
00:37:00.130 --> 00:37:07.840
for me was understand, was when
I stopped trying necessarily to convince the other

560
00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:12.840
person but to try and have a
real conversation where I affirmed value. I

561
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:15.989
started to look for things I could
agree with instead of doing the opposite.

562
00:37:15.989 --> 00:37:17.590
So one of the common fallacies,
I forget exactly what it's called, but

563
00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:22.230
it's where you you find one wrong, you know, line or one wrong

564
00:37:22.269 --> 00:37:27.989
sentence and you use that to discredit
their entire point. And I've started to

565
00:37:28.030 --> 00:37:30.860
try and do the not necessarily,
not necessarily the opposite, but I've started

566
00:37:30.940 --> 00:37:36.260
looking for things that I can affirm
and then and include in my response to

567
00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:37.260
say, Hey, actually, I
really agree with you when you said this

568
00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:42.460
and I think that's an excellent pointer
I hadn't considered before and and you know,

569
00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:44.969
thank you for teaching me that.
Here's what I think about the rest

570
00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:49.210
as well, and that is really
helped me. And then the second part

571
00:37:49.250 --> 00:37:52.250
of that was also well, let
me ask you this before I jump into

572
00:37:52.289 --> 00:37:55.210
the second part of this. Do
you think that it's possible to even have

573
00:37:55.530 --> 00:38:02.119
healthy or good conversations on on social
media outside of DM's or Inbox, you

574
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:07.400
know, in in bigger common sections, or in you know, twitter threads.

575
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:08.800
Do you think that those are healthy
or there's a way to do them

576
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:12.599
in a healthy yeah, just actually, a couple weeks ago, and you

577
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:15.550
may have seen this, I posted
because it was a pride month, and

578
00:38:15.590 --> 00:38:21.590
I said, Hey, who are
the thinker, speakers authors in the LGBTQ

579
00:38:21.710 --> 00:38:23.789
community on twitter? I should following
because I want to learn to understand more.

580
00:38:23.829 --> 00:38:27.260
Yes, I do remember that,
Yep, and it launched this thread.

581
00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:30.019
It was really cool about is not
just finding, you know, new

582
00:38:30.099 --> 00:38:35.059
people to follow and getting followed back, which I didn't expect, but people

583
00:38:35.219 --> 00:38:37.139
connecting, you know, in that
thread saying hey, I didn't know about

584
00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:39.659
this and thank you so much for, you know, preferring me and we

585
00:38:39.739 --> 00:38:45.010
should connect, let's do this.
I'm going to be on to other podcasters

586
00:38:45.090 --> 00:38:45.969
as a result of that and sort
of all these other, you know,

587
00:38:46.090 --> 00:38:51.570
people are like jumping on and getting
involved with with each other's work. So

588
00:38:51.650 --> 00:38:53.489
it was a really positive, you
know thread. And in course, there

589
00:38:53.530 --> 00:38:58.719
worse. Some DM conversations to you
know, just the mechanics of having an

590
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.559
indepth conversation on twitter are frustrating.
And so sometimes like hey, ill dm

591
00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:07.320
you just because it's easier. But
as far as actual tone of the content

592
00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:09.869
on the thread, it was very, very positive. I've seen awesome lots

593
00:39:09.909 --> 00:39:14.030
of pots. I had covid,
you know, over winter break and it

594
00:39:14.070 --> 00:39:15.989
took me a little bit longer to
recover from it and you know, I

595
00:39:16.070 --> 00:39:23.860
post a couple updates on instagram or
facebook and tons of people positive conversations and

596
00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:29.659
encouragement. So I know it can
happen. I just think because of the

597
00:39:29.860 --> 00:39:35.940
nature of social media, it doesn't
lend itself to US stopping and saying,

598
00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:39.369
before I jump in here, have
I really thought about what I'm saying and

599
00:39:39.489 --> 00:39:42.809
what I hope to get out of
this, and even asking like what do

600
00:39:42.889 --> 00:39:45.369
I hope to accomplish by posting this? What is the goal here? Just

601
00:39:45.449 --> 00:39:47.769
to make people angry, and that
that there is in a space. Sometimes

602
00:39:47.769 --> 00:39:54.119
you need to generate some anger.
But often we think we're being helpful when

603
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:58.320
we jump in here and when in
fact we're just making it worse. And

604
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.719
so really pausing to say is this
am I contributing to the pool of meaning

605
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:07.269
or my clouding the pool of meeting? That's that's major and I love that

606
00:40:07.309 --> 00:40:09.829
you mentioned goals there at the end, because what I was going to say

607
00:40:09.829 --> 00:40:15.429
before I ask this was that the
the big transformative thing for me and that

608
00:40:15.590 --> 00:40:20.190
has helped me better filter out what
conversations I jump into and what threads I

609
00:40:20.269 --> 00:40:23.460
don't, is that I stopped,
especially when it comes down to a debate

610
00:40:23.500 --> 00:40:27.780
or an exchange of, you know, opposing ideas, I've stopped trying to

611
00:40:27.860 --> 00:40:31.980
argue, to change or win the
other person over, but instead I'm doing

612
00:40:32.059 --> 00:40:37.050
I'm usually jumping into something because there's
a neutral third party, which is just

613
00:40:37.170 --> 00:40:40.530
someone who reads but doesn't engage on
the thread itself. Is Far more people

614
00:40:40.570 --> 00:40:44.369
will see it, like it,
maybe not even like it, or leave

615
00:40:44.449 --> 00:40:47.010
a comment or response right and I'm
arguing for them. And I remember the

616
00:40:47.050 --> 00:40:51.159
first time I did this was when, when I learned this, was in

617
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:58.480
college and someone posted this huge thing
about music and how listening to secular music

618
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:01.719
and even contemporary worship music was.
It was someone whose personal faith journey led

619
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:06.789
them to that conclusion of this isn't
okay for me and they were making the

620
00:41:06.869 --> 00:41:10.030
mistake of projecting that reality for everyone
else. This isn't good for me,

621
00:41:10.070 --> 00:41:13.670
or this illicits feelings in me that
are okay, that are not okay,

622
00:41:13.750 --> 00:41:16.030
so it must not be okay for
everyone else. And I most of my

623
00:41:16.190 --> 00:41:21.699
friends at that time were worship leaders. So you can imagine for someone to

624
00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:25.019
be jumping in and attacking the very
thing that they love doing. That was

625
00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:29.300
really hard for them. And so
I jumped in and was and responded to

626
00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:32.650
his post and we that was that
was a that was one big conversation and

627
00:41:34.130 --> 00:41:37.969
I had several people message me at
the end of that saying like, you

628
00:41:37.050 --> 00:41:39.929
know, thank you. He really
had me doubting even my own, you

629
00:41:40.010 --> 00:41:43.409
know, my own purpose and something
that's drawn me really, you know,

630
00:41:43.489 --> 00:41:47.079
a lot closer to God, and
you brought balance back into that and helped

631
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:52.559
and you affirmed value for me and
that was where I really learned the importance

632
00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:57.679
of understanding that when we're online there's
more than just me and the other person.

633
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.320
There's always more people engaging with it. Yeah, for sure, absolutely.

634
00:42:01.590 --> 00:42:06.710
So I like to ask this question
of all my guests. I do

635
00:42:06.829 --> 00:42:08.909
it in the outline and I always
give the context for it when I do

636
00:42:09.070 --> 00:42:16.260
my interviews, but it's something that
I like asking because every interview and on

637
00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:21.659
every podcast or every show often goes
exactly the same for a lot of people

638
00:42:22.099 --> 00:42:24.179
and I like to get I want
to make sure that when I invite a

639
00:42:24.219 --> 00:42:28.340
guest on, that I ask them
what they want to be asked as well,

640
00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:30.929
and so I always I always leave
it in the outline of what is

641
00:42:30.969 --> 00:42:36.050
a question you wish someone would ask
you and the two that you chose,

642
00:42:36.090 --> 00:42:37.730
and I love that you chose to
will start with a first one. But

643
00:42:37.809 --> 00:42:42.610
Seth. What are you currently working
on? Yeah, so I am currently

644
00:42:43.409 --> 00:42:45.639
in the final stage. It was
supposed to come on, I think,

645
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:49.199
this next month, but it's got
pushed back to September because it's just what

646
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:53.480
happened. My dissertation is being published
by Paul Grave, McMillan and London,

647
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:58.119
which is a major academic publisher,
awesome, and that is coming out in

648
00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:04.909
September and I'm really excited about it. It's the first major nondenominational academic public

649
00:43:04.989 --> 00:43:07.789
shry I've worked with and it's been
a process with with covid the back and

650
00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:15.059
forth has been delayed for variety of
reasons, but I'm excited for it to

651
00:43:15.099 --> 00:43:21.500
come out because it really when that, when it's published, a sort of

652
00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:22.460
gives you a little bit of street
cred you know, you work on this

653
00:43:22.579 --> 00:43:25.260
thing for, you know, for
five years in your doctrine, like this

654
00:43:25.340 --> 00:43:28.449
is really a thing. I mean, I know I got my degree,

655
00:43:28.570 --> 00:43:32.449
but but then to have it out
there and sort of validated by a publisher

656
00:43:32.650 --> 00:43:36.570
is a good feeling. And then
it really opens the door for me to

657
00:43:36.690 --> 00:43:39.730
talk a lot about some of my
doctoral research which relates to trauma I developed.

658
00:43:40.210 --> 00:43:46.000
Oh it's called spectral rhetoric and it's
the idea of exploring felt absence.

659
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:51.960
And so this isn't a rhetorical example, but just to illustrate what felt absence

660
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:54.199
would be, as if you went
through a devastating loss and then you all

661
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:59.030
gathered around the the family table for
a meal and there's a chair empty.

662
00:43:59.070 --> 00:44:01.269
There's nothing in there, but you
feel it. No, and so when

663
00:44:01.309 --> 00:44:06.269
we look at film, we look
at texts, whether it's fiction, non

664
00:44:06.349 --> 00:44:10.619
fiction cinema, there are felt absences
that, quote unquote, hunt the meaning

665
00:44:10.699 --> 00:44:16.260
and message of what we're watching and
there are ways to use this framework that

666
00:44:16.300 --> 00:44:22.699
I've developed to see what is haunting
certain texts, what traumas are lurking in

667
00:44:22.820 --> 00:44:28.170
between the lines of certain things.
So it's a really fun topic. It's

668
00:44:28.170 --> 00:44:30.409
a little bit heavy. It's going
to be an again, it's not going

669
00:44:30.449 --> 00:44:32.250
to be, I've no delusions that
it's going to be some best seller.

670
00:44:32.289 --> 00:44:37.769
It's an academic textbook and they'll probably
be expensive, but but it allows me

671
00:44:37.889 --> 00:44:42.719
to then build off some works that
are more for general public who might be

672
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:49.320
interested in this awesome. Yeah,
and I know that. I admittedly don't

673
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:51.960
know like ton about dissertation. So
I don't want like I know what they

674
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:53.869
are. Obviously that's fine, but
I mean is I don't know a lot

675
00:44:53.909 --> 00:44:59.550
about when they're published, accessing them
or how publicly they get published. versts

676
00:44:59.630 --> 00:45:02.630
being used specifically for academic, you
know, academic purposes. So you know,

677
00:45:04.110 --> 00:45:06.670
is this something that people will be
able to access on demand? Is

678
00:45:06.750 --> 00:45:08.500
this something that staying really private?
Yeah, I just don't know how that

679
00:45:08.619 --> 00:45:10.900
works. Yeah, so when you
publish a dissertation, it goes into a

680
00:45:10.900 --> 00:45:16.059
database called proquest and that's something that
every college university has access to and it's

681
00:45:16.059 --> 00:45:22.570
all the dissertations that in master's thesis
that you can access. When it gets

682
00:45:22.969 --> 00:45:24.210
published, you have to do a
little bit of rewriting, it's a little

683
00:45:24.210 --> 00:45:30.210
bit of a format change and things, because dissertations have their specific ways of

684
00:45:30.289 --> 00:45:34.570
formatting. But what most of us
try to do is, when we're done,

685
00:45:34.849 --> 00:45:37.960
we like to be able to either
publish it as a series of articles

686
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:42.440
and pair of view journals or get
a published as a book. And so

687
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:45.320
Paul Grave mcvillain is publishing it as
a book, and so it'll be on

688
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:49.039
Amazon, it'll be on their website, it'll be wherever they sell books,

689
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:53.909
academic books. So it's not going
to be it's not for general audiences,

690
00:45:53.949 --> 00:45:59.829
although it's written as best as I
can for people and field outside of communication

691
00:46:00.070 --> 00:46:04.500
and rhetoric to be able to access
it. HMM, cool, awesome.

692
00:46:04.579 --> 00:46:06.980
Okay, so that I learned something. I had no idea any of that

693
00:46:07.099 --> 00:46:08.340
was true. So what you're saying
is I won't find it next to all

694
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:12.900
those young adult romance books at Barnes
and normal wall now, although, but

695
00:46:12.940 --> 00:46:15.059
you could use the book and what's
in the book to analyze those books and

696
00:46:15.980 --> 00:46:20.050
well, that's good to know.
Recover some interesting meetings there. Sure,

697
00:46:21.210 --> 00:46:24.130
Ryan. Why are you reading that
Weird Romance novels? I'm just trying to

698
00:46:24.170 --> 00:46:27.849
analyze it. Research, you know, I'm just trying to yeah, yeah,

699
00:46:28.010 --> 00:46:30.969
just trying to, you know,
practice my analytics skills and really grow

700
00:46:30.090 --> 00:46:35.880
those love it. So okay,
so you and I come from a,

701
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:40.400
you know, relatively speaking, smaller
Christian denomination, which is seventh day adventism.

702
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:45.400
So we have about twenty one million
members worldwide, though with how membership

703
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:49.349
is tract it's probably my assumption is
it's probably about two million less, depending

704
00:46:49.389 --> 00:46:52.550
on what part of the world you're
talking about, and that's my margin of

705
00:46:52.630 --> 00:46:55.829
error there. But we've about twenty
one million members worldwide and we have one

706
00:46:55.869 --> 00:47:00.630
of the largest education systems and one
of the largest, you know, healthcare

707
00:47:00.670 --> 00:47:04.059
systems in the world. For as
far as private is concerned, I think

708
00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:13.420
we're only behind Catholics and education,
I believe, and so the but one

709
00:47:13.539 --> 00:47:16.449
thing is one thing that's been true
of our denomination is is it has largely

710
00:47:16.530 --> 00:47:20.570
been pretty insular, which has led
to a lot of misunderstandings about it.

711
00:47:21.170 --> 00:47:25.130
And one one of the realities of
that is publishing tends to be very insular

712
00:47:25.170 --> 00:47:32.440
as well, and publishing in general
it's encouraged, but encouraged to outside of

713
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:37.639
the denomination for a lot of reasons
by several people it and and that I

714
00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:42.440
think the tides are shifting there.
But I'm curious to know, and this

715
00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:45.710
is a question that you yourself have
listed. Here is the second question.

716
00:47:45.829 --> 00:47:50.030
But what trends do you see?
And advent is publishing and, you know,

717
00:47:50.110 --> 00:47:52.989
what future do you see for it? Yeah, so when I started

718
00:47:53.389 --> 00:47:57.150
with my first article, that would
have been back, you know, early

719
00:47:57.710 --> 00:48:00.900
two thousands, mid you know,
two thousand, and what I saw was

720
00:48:00.940 --> 00:48:07.500
a lot more aggressive recruiting of younger
talent. You know, I know publishers.

721
00:48:07.940 --> 00:48:09.619
What I'm not going to mention names
because I'm very, very grateful to

722
00:48:09.739 --> 00:48:14.130
these publishing houses for lot, you
know, not all of them are in

723
00:48:14.210 --> 00:48:19.889
existence anymore, for helping launch my
career. But there was this aggressive cultivating

724
00:48:19.969 --> 00:48:22.130
of new voices and encouraging them to
write books and articles, and that has

725
00:48:22.170 --> 00:48:29.719
sort of tapered off where it's become
a little bit more institutional. You know,

726
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:34.480
people just not I mean if you're
in the system, you can get

727
00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:37.119
some freelance work and you can kind
of network, you know, a little

728
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:40.320
bit and get stuff, but it
doesn't seem as aggressive towards really cultivating new

729
00:48:40.429 --> 00:48:45.030
content. So much is going with
existing, existing content or even repackaging it

730
00:48:45.269 --> 00:48:51.869
year your year. The other thing
I'm seeing, for and I'm including myself

731
00:48:52.070 --> 00:48:58.099
younger authors and creators, as we
are starting to publish outside of the denomination.

732
00:48:58.900 --> 00:49:01.139
Heather Times and day, you know, has a new one now which

733
00:49:01.179 --> 00:49:06.139
I'm excited to read. Kevin Wilson, you know, just got a book

734
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:08.059
deal. I think it I don't
want to say the publisher coming. I'm

735
00:49:08.099 --> 00:49:10.889
blanking out. I think it's penguin, but a major I think it's paying

736
00:49:12.050 --> 00:49:14.170
the Peng when sounds right, but
I could be yeah, we could both

737
00:49:14.170 --> 00:49:16.170
be wrong. Major publishing deal John
Peck and which he is. That are

738
00:49:16.170 --> 00:49:19.809
seminaries with banker, academic. I'm
having my new book come out with Pell

739
00:49:19.889 --> 00:49:23.250
Graves McMillan, and so there's this
trend of a lot of your younger authors

740
00:49:23.289 --> 00:49:28.719
who are now saying, you know, for the lack of promotion, the

741
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:35.920
lack of for lack of better ROM
author support or even compensation. Why am

742
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:39.630
I investing all this time in an
effort when, when the work doesn't seem

743
00:49:39.630 --> 00:49:44.030
to be appreciated? And it's not
even just you know what, what authors

744
00:49:44.070 --> 00:49:49.429
are compensated? It's it's distribution,
it's marketing. I had a book that

745
00:49:49.670 --> 00:49:55.500
was translated into another language, major
market, and I scoured all their social

746
00:49:55.500 --> 00:49:58.739
media. They didn't promote it once, you know, and I'm like how

747
00:49:59.500 --> 00:50:02.059
even looking at some of the the
publisher publisher Social Media Page is that we

748
00:50:02.139 --> 00:50:06.900
have, they're full of inspirational quotes, not any of their products, which

749
00:50:06.940 --> 00:50:10.289
is really strange to me. So
what I'm seeing is a shift in both

750
00:50:10.769 --> 00:50:15.250
online content creation. You know mentioned
Kevin Wilson. Know he's doing his you

751
00:50:15.369 --> 00:50:22.199
know, the the Cross Cultural Christians
culture, Christian is Chai episodes and on

752
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:27.079
on Tick Tock, which is amazing. Go check it out. You're seeing

753
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:31.599
a lot more of that and and
I'm really grateful that the publisher of my

754
00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:35.750
new book a been sources, actually
one of the very few, I think,

755
00:50:35.750 --> 00:50:37.670
who really work with the author that
they promote as best they can.

756
00:50:38.429 --> 00:50:44.469
They really make you feel appreciated.
So shout out to appen source on that

757
00:50:44.630 --> 00:50:47.670
one. But that's something I'm noticing
and I think abnus publishers need to pay

758
00:50:47.670 --> 00:50:52.539
a really close attention to that.
A lot of their existing talent or upancoming

759
00:50:52.579 --> 00:50:59.619
talent is looking outside because they're feeling
like I'm not sure why I would put

760
00:50:59.619 --> 00:51:01.420
the effort in what, not just
because the compensation, but even just the

761
00:51:01.460 --> 00:51:06.690
promotion loving letting people know what's there
doesn't seem to be there, so it

762
00:51:06.809 --> 00:51:09.809
doesn't seem worth the effort. And
that's that's going to come, that's going

763
00:51:09.849 --> 00:51:14.570
to bite us if we don't we
don't fix that. Yeah, I couldn't

764
00:51:14.610 --> 00:51:16.090
agree more with with that assessment.
By the way, I will link to

765
00:51:16.210 --> 00:51:20.320
both Heather Times in day and Kevin
Wilson, the Cross Culture Christian. His

766
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:23.920
stuff on try is amazing in the
way he he uses that to speak to

767
00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:28.599
grander issues that we face. His
content, the one consistent common I always

768
00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:31.679
see on his stuff is is this
is a breath of fresh air. And

769
00:51:32.030 --> 00:51:36.989
with Heather Times and day she were
it's almost like, and this is not

770
00:51:37.070 --> 00:51:39.349
a shot at any other professor's seth. I'm sure you're great one on one

771
00:51:39.389 --> 00:51:45.070
with your students, but she it's
almost like she restores the humanity to being

772
00:51:45.110 --> 00:51:49.059
a professor and she's like a lot
of the story she shares, a lot

773
00:51:49.059 --> 00:51:51.699
of the interactions she has with her
students are I feel like the reason so

774
00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:54.260
many people connect with it is because
it's exactly what they wish they're professors would

775
00:51:54.300 --> 00:51:59.980
have done for them right or reminds
them of the great professors that did do

776
00:52:00.139 --> 00:52:01.489
things like that for them, and
so yeah, will link to both of

777
00:52:01.530 --> 00:52:06.250
them because they both put out some
amazing content if you are looking for someone

778
00:52:06.289 --> 00:52:10.170
new to follow the but I do
agree with you and I think one of

779
00:52:10.250 --> 00:52:15.530
the when you think of like the
the industrial revolution, for example, I

780
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:19.320
think that we are in a kind
of social media revolution. I think that

781
00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:28.159
social media has completely changed the game
for restoring power to the individual and giving

782
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:30.789
platform and voice to the individual,
where individuals now have a grander say.

783
00:52:30.829 --> 00:52:35.190
Anyone has the ability to go viral, whether they kind of like it or

784
00:52:35.230 --> 00:52:38.510
not, and more people, I
think, have better, better understanding of

785
00:52:38.550 --> 00:52:42.550
how to do it. But for
the most part anyone could at any moment

786
00:52:42.710 --> 00:52:45.420
just go viral. That was what
happened with one of our absurdity episodes.

787
00:52:45.460 --> 00:52:49.460
Out of nowhere we went from where
I just started posting it on Youtube and

788
00:52:49.619 --> 00:52:52.099
you know, six thousand and seventy
views down over thirty four thousand, are

789
00:52:52.219 --> 00:52:58.889
just out of nowhere. And it
just it can happen to anyone and that

790
00:52:59.130 --> 00:53:02.730
means that there's a lot less of
a need to rely on the traditional institutions

791
00:53:02.969 --> 00:53:08.090
that value control out of preservation.
Yeah, you know it. There's there's

792
00:53:08.090 --> 00:53:10.489
less of a need to rely on
them to do and produce, and so

793
00:53:10.690 --> 00:53:15.639
there's with equipment becoming cheaper, laptops
in the hands of everyone. I'veads cell

794
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:17.519
phones. You can type, you
can write a book on your phone,

795
00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.920
you know, you can. Charlie
pouth his whole his his, I think

796
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:27.039
it's his album is called voice notes, I think is what it's called that.

797
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:30.309
I don't remember what it's called,
but basically it's the reason he named

798
00:53:30.349 --> 00:53:34.590
it. That was essentially because he
recorded the whole thing on voice memos.

799
00:53:34.630 --> 00:53:37.670
He would he would or from voice
memos that he would he would record just

800
00:53:37.750 --> 00:53:40.389
so he doesn't lose a melody or
when he has an idea, and he

801
00:53:40.429 --> 00:53:45.500
would compile those into into songs later
and he would obviously reproduce him and rerecord

802
00:53:45.579 --> 00:53:49.820
those elements, but it was all
kind of the foundation of it was built

803
00:53:49.900 --> 00:53:52.940
through the voice memos APP on his
iphone, and that is that power exists

804
00:53:53.019 --> 00:53:57.570
for everyone now you hop on your
phone on anchor and start a podcast in

805
00:53:57.769 --> 00:54:01.289
five minutes. So I very much
agree with that. I think the institution

806
00:54:01.329 --> 00:54:05.650
needs to figure out a way,
and may mean giving up some form of

807
00:54:06.570 --> 00:54:09.559
control out of out of self preservation
in order to do that. So I

808
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:17.079
want to this has been an intensely
practical conversation and I I want to ask

809
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:21.360
I'm going to ask you two final
questions in the first one is if I'm

810
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:25.309
someone who wants to have better conversations, just a regular person listening to this

811
00:54:25.389 --> 00:54:29.630
show and I want to position myself
to have better conversations and learn how to

812
00:54:29.710 --> 00:54:32.909
do it, what are those first
initial steps that I take after hearing this

813
00:54:34.070 --> 00:54:37.190
episode and being inspired to change and
analyze the way that I have conversations?

814
00:54:37.619 --> 00:54:40.380
You know what, what do I
do? But buy my book. That's

815
00:54:40.460 --> 00:54:44.139
the first thing you have to do. Ha Link in the show notes.

816
00:54:44.179 --> 00:54:47.260
That's great, actually funny. I
remember having a seminary class or professor and

817
00:54:47.980 --> 00:54:51.260
he told us, like they what
if you want revivable by my book.

818
00:54:51.340 --> 00:54:54.489
We were also like offended by that
brazen, you know, promotion and the

819
00:54:54.769 --> 00:54:58.969
actually being a pretty good book.
But so I say that half serious and

820
00:54:59.050 --> 00:55:07.440
and and and not. But I
think again, going back and realizing where,

821
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:09.960
where is it that I need to
know more about these issues and really

822
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:15.119
making peace with the fact that this
is slow work. You're not going to

823
00:55:15.159 --> 00:55:19.719
do a crash course in intercultural interpersonal
communication. And know everything in two hours.

824
00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:22.190
You know, really going to be
an ongoing learning process and also realizing

825
00:55:22.230 --> 00:55:27.150
that anything with communication, just like
culture or language, is dynamic. It

826
00:55:27.269 --> 00:55:29.869
changes, and I hear this all
the time. I wish language, that

827
00:55:30.269 --> 00:55:31.670
the word could just mean what it
means, and it's like let that's never

828
00:55:31.789 --> 00:55:35.900
been part of human experience. So
you know it might be. It will

829
00:55:35.900 --> 00:55:39.539
be wonderful if everyone had the same
definition and language and culture never shifted,

830
00:55:39.619 --> 00:55:43.219
but it does. That welcome to
planet Earth. So you're gonna have to

831
00:55:43.300 --> 00:55:46.099
make the fact that this is an
ongoing process of education and it and it

832
00:55:46.179 --> 00:55:55.329
takes some time. I also think
identifying good, healthy people who have different

833
00:55:55.369 --> 00:56:00.210
perspectives than you and take them out
to lunch, take them out to coffee

834
00:56:00.289 --> 00:56:04.210
and to say I would it be
okay I ask questions and get some book

835
00:56:04.250 --> 00:56:08.480
recommendations, podcast recommendations help me understand
so I can have better conversations and and,

836
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:13.599
as we mentioned earlier, know what
your triggers are. No, no,

837
00:56:13.639 --> 00:56:16.559
where those flashpoints are, how and
know how you will respond when those

838
00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:20.869
things come up, versus just winging
it in the moment. When I was

839
00:56:20.909 --> 00:56:22.869
a passion would do primarial counsel.
One of the big things we teach people's

840
00:56:22.869 --> 00:56:25.829
here's how we have here's how we
work through conflict, which will show up.

841
00:56:27.230 --> 00:56:29.829
We don't wait till conflict happens because
when you're in the middle of it

842
00:56:29.909 --> 00:56:31.789
and on the emotions are high,
nobody is paying attention to anybody. You

843
00:56:31.829 --> 00:56:36.500
know, you're just screaming. We're
going to learn the tools now, we're

844
00:56:36.539 --> 00:56:38.699
going to commit them to memory so
when you recognize what's happening, you are

845
00:56:38.780 --> 00:56:44.179
prepared to go in there and have
a better conversation. Yeah, I love

846
00:56:44.219 --> 00:56:46.170
it, absolutely love it. The
you know, one thing I tell a

847
00:56:46.409 --> 00:56:50.449
lot of a lot of college students. A lot of them talk about and

848
00:56:50.570 --> 00:56:54.210
ask about studying abroad and a lot
of them will come from more traditionally conservative

849
00:56:55.090 --> 00:56:59.530
households, and I don't just mean
that within the context of our denomination,

850
00:56:59.650 --> 00:57:01.639
just in general. And what I
what I noticed with a lot of students

851
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:07.079
that go to to certain countries is
they discover, after growing up in a

852
00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:10.320
very sheltered household, that the drinking
age is now eighteen, twenty one,

853
00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:15.079
and their parents aren't their parents are
on the other side of the world and

854
00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:19.150
if they haven't had set boundaries in
place prior to going there are a lot

855
00:57:19.190 --> 00:57:22.710
more likely to do what everyone else
is around them is doing and to engage

856
00:57:22.710 --> 00:57:25.110
in things that they may not have
even wanted to do before they left because

857
00:57:25.110 --> 00:57:28.590
they never even thought that they would
end up in those places. And so

858
00:57:28.750 --> 00:57:31.780
to be able to identify those ahead
of time is massive for keeping any boundaries

859
00:57:32.019 --> 00:57:37.460
for yourself and whatever. Yeah,
absolutely so. I love it, and

860
00:57:37.780 --> 00:57:43.219
I did have this idea while you
when you mentioned go by the book,

861
00:57:43.659 --> 00:57:45.610
and so I'm just going to announce
this right now, which is I am

862
00:57:45.650 --> 00:57:50.289
going to do a book give away, so to one, one or two

863
00:57:50.329 --> 00:57:52.969
lucky listeners. Well, let's say
too. I'm going to buy two books.

864
00:57:52.010 --> 00:57:57.250
So if you are interested in receiving
a free copy of seeking in understanding

865
00:57:57.289 --> 00:58:00.800
how to have difficult conversations without destroying
your relationships, then go ahead head over.

866
00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:04.480
If you're listening to this on audio, head over to my youtube channel.

867
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:07.559
There's a link in the show notes
for it as well. Subscribe to

868
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:10.320
the channel and leave a comment with
one key thing that you either learned in

869
00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:14.269
this episode or something that like,
meant something to you in this episode,

870
00:58:14.269 --> 00:58:19.070
that you that you resonated with,
and I'll be choosing one of our I'll

871
00:58:19.070 --> 00:58:22.190
be choosing two of those commentors at
random to receive the book. Seth isn't

872
00:58:22.230 --> 00:58:24.150
sponsoring it, it is something I'm
just doing out of my own pocket.

873
00:58:24.269 --> 00:58:28.579
So if that's something you're interested in, go subscribe and leave a comment letting

874
00:58:28.579 --> 00:58:31.179
us know what you resonated with and
learn from this episode. And Seth,

875
00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:35.139
I want to ask you this.
What is your hope for future conversations?

876
00:58:35.179 --> 00:58:37.780
How do you hope you know what's
the reality or paint a picture for us

877
00:58:37.860 --> 00:58:42.210
of of what the world starts to
look like when people are taking some of

878
00:58:42.250 --> 00:58:46.090
the principles you teach about into consideration? I think slower, more thoughtful interactions

879
00:58:46.449 --> 00:58:52.769
were people are really taking the time
to understand where the other person's coming from,

880
00:58:52.889 --> 00:58:58.559
how they're defining certain things with their
experiences and then sharing their experience,

881
00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:01.840
you know, in a gracious way, and then people coming together with an

882
00:59:01.880 --> 00:59:07.400
understanding and hopefully finding some solutions and
better structures and better ways of doing life

883
00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:13.510
together that work for everybody. Awesome. I love it and I advocate for

884
00:59:13.550 --> 00:59:15.949
the exact same thing. I really
feel like this is a imaginating heaven for

885
00:59:16.030 --> 00:59:19.389
us, just just for the sake
of there's so many things that you talked

886
00:59:19.389 --> 00:59:21.789
about in the book and there's so
many things that you've mentioned this episode that

887
00:59:22.269 --> 00:59:25.820
that I feel like I've really been
pushing for a on time and you've either

888
00:59:25.820 --> 00:59:30.300
articulated them in a way that I
didn't know how to or never considered before,

889
00:59:30.659 --> 00:59:37.420
and you you brought out elements that
I am now going to adopt an

890
00:59:37.420 --> 00:59:40.489
adapt in my own my own articulation
of these ideas. So I you know,

891
00:59:40.489 --> 00:59:45.650
I really appreciate you coming on your
expertise and your willingness to write this

892
00:59:45.849 --> 00:59:50.130
book and and help people that need, that want and need to have better

893
00:59:50.250 --> 00:59:52.360
conversations. And so, yeah,
thank you so much. I do want

894
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:54.920
to give you just an opportunity to
you have any final thoughts, anything you

895
00:59:54.960 --> 01:00:00.519
want to encourage people with before we
for I sign us off. Just yeah,

896
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:02.440
thank you to you and thank you
everyone who's listening. I really appreciate

897
01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:07.389
it and continue the conversation. You
can find me on twitter as Seth Jape

898
01:00:07.429 --> 01:00:10.070
Pierce or on instagram and add professor
Pierce, and I'll be here from you

899
01:00:12.150 --> 01:00:14.710
perfect. So all of the links
will be in the show notes, including

900
01:00:14.750 --> 01:00:19.989
to those that we've referenced on this
episode. You've been listening to Seth Pierce,

901
01:00:20.070 --> 01:00:24.300
a pastor and Professor at Union College
and in Lincoln Nebraska, and author

902
01:00:24.340 --> 01:00:29.940
of the book seeking an understanding how
to have difficult conversations without destroying your relationships.

903
01:00:30.019 --> 01:00:30.820
So if you want to pick that
up link in the show notes,

904
01:00:30.820 --> 01:00:34.900
and if you want to ender the
giveaway, I basically a week from the

905
01:00:34.980 --> 01:00:38.449
published date on Youtube, that will
be your that will be the cutoff for

906
01:00:38.489 --> 01:00:42.809
entry into the giveaway. So to
too lucky winners, just subscribe to the

907
01:00:42.849 --> 01:00:45.610
channel and leave a comment letting us
know what you resonated with and with that,

908
01:00:45.730 --> 01:01:00.639
thank you everyone for listening and we'll
see you next week. The the

909
01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:23.059
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

910
01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:49.119
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

911
01:01:50.880 --> 01:02:14.869
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

912
01:02:15.500 --> 01:02:45.519
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

913
01:02:47.239 --> 01:03:16.820
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

914
01:03:19.539 --> 01:03:49.800
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

915
01:03:51.880 --> 01:04:20.820
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

916
01:04:23.699 --> 01:04:57.590
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

917
01:05:00.030 --> 01:05:27.130
the the the, the the,
the the the the the the the the

918
01:05:28.849 --> 01:05:57.710
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

919
01:05:59.590 --> 01:06:29.690
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

920
01:06:30.809 --> 01:07:00.269
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

921
01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:29.690
the the, the the the,
the the the the the the the the

922
01:07:30.320 --> 01:08:00.860
the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the

923
01:08:01.900 --> 01:08:11.860
the the the the the