Annabel: it is so nice to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming today.
Upendra: Nice to be here. Thank you, Annabel, for having me here. Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation. Yeah.
Annabel: All the way from Sikkim. Before though we get into your story around becoming an architect and all the interesting things you've gotten up to, what gets your attention? What do you like to watch or read or listen to?
Upendra: I move between things a lot. mean, especially work
Annabel: Yeah.
Upendra: and things that I do. I like doing music as well. And then, of course, there's family. So, I'm only moving between things. So, know what gets my attention. Yeah, I think... things in between in a way because like it's kind of everything feels interconnected. So what am I reading? So I'm reading this book of essays. I recently went to the School of Environment and Architecture in Bombay, and they gave me their publication. It's called First Questions. And it's quite interesting to kind of... Yeah, some of the essays are very interesting. And then it's also about how the school was formed and... what kind of pedagogic style or like what kind of pedagogy they're kind of looking into. Yeah, and there was this very interesting essay that I kind of came across and it was about... So before in India, like before architecture education was kind of formal, so there was the British kind of like came and then they made this, I mean, they made this institutions where they would kind of teach like craftsmanship skills. And yeah, so then that kind of like that method, that very orthographic drawing kind of method, and then those European construction methods in a way shaped like the architectural education in India in some sense. So anyway, so that's something that I found it pretty interesting. So recently I watched this movie called rental family. It's like a, have you seen that movie?
Annabel: No.
Upendra: No, no. So it's this guy called Brendan Fraser, like who's done a comeback after many years. I he did come back in another movie as well. But then anyways, was a very nice, like easy movie. And then listening. I've been listening to this Japanese artist, know, so his name is Chihei. I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly. But it's just basically just like ambient music. It really calms me down and it really helps me lower my BP, I guess. And it helps me focus as well, like in world. So yeah, that's something that I've been doing.
Annabel: Awesome. And what do you do that? Like, is there a practice you have that helps you, brings you some joy or helps you feel more peaceful or like just something that you engage with? That's not work. It's not family. It's just something for you. Do you have anything like that?
Upendra: Recently, I can think of I was with my wife and I was being silly and I was being stupid. I was saying something very embarrassing in a comical way. and the feeling of not being judged, you know, like it's nice. mean, so yeah, that's something that kind of stuck with me.
Annabel: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. And yeah, it's so relaxing to have people in your life that you could be ridiculous with.
Upendra: Yeah.
Annabel: And they can just laugh with you. Yeah. So you shared that you're an architect, trained architect, and you've also founded your own studio, Studio Interweave. But I'm really curious, where did that start for you? Did you know that you wanted to be an architect or how did you end up in this field? Tell me.
Upendra: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, like I knew very little about architecture when I was in school, you know, I mean, I knew about it, but then not to the extent that I, I mean, would want to go and pursue it, know, and actually, I, I was into music for a long time, and I thought I could do music, you know, and I wanted to pursue like career in music. And okay, I mean, It didn't happen, obviously. And somehow...
Annabel: Never say never. You never know.
Upendra: Never say never, never say never. I mean, I'm still doing music. there is a kind of like a full circle to this as well. So I'll get to that. But yeah, after my school. So over here, like in Sikkim, you do get like state quotas to get into like these government colleges. So if you are marks, you have to be on merit. So you do get like these quotas. somehow like my marks was okay in class 12, grade 12 and then I could qualify for these colleges, know, like these architecture colleges and so my dad kind of told me, hey, listen, like, why don't you try this? Like, maybe it's good for you. And then I thought about it and then I thought, okay, why not? You know, and then moreover that kind of that college was in Bombay. So I thought that, okay, I'll go to Bombay and then maybe like still like do my music and then maybe slowly kind of move away from architecture and get into that, know. But yeah, life had other plans for me. So when I went to Bombay, like there was this big thing that happened. I mean, it's something like to do with my mom, like she didn't really there was this incident that happened over there and then which kind of really made us think that do you really I mean at least them like think that would you really want to stay in a place like this. then, yeah, we had to talk to the education department over there. And then they said, okay, there's another college in central India where you can go as part of the state like Maharashtra itself. And so that state is very conservative. And it's very, it's in the heartland. And it's very hot also, you know. First of all, the place itself kind of like was very deadening. And then after the school, like the school where you're to learn like space, like making or place making, that itself was very uninspiring, you know? And so yeah, first two years I really kind of struggled over there. Then I thought I'll take a break, you know? So then I moved to Delhi for a year. things opened up, you know, so then I met like really good people. There was this particular person like named Sona. She was studying sociology and then she was in this university called Jawaharlal Nehru University, So yeah, I mean, she used to me lot of things. talked about, I mean, like, maybe I didn't know enough then, not maybe, I didn't know enough then about history and about social sciences in that sense, you know. And anyway, so it made all sense like when I met her and then she was also cool and she was telling me about hippie movement, anti-machinist and like LSD and all of that. So it was just so cool, you know, and so yeah, so that kind of really fascinated. I saw this group of people who were so passionate about making a difference in society and they were talking about equality and justice and they were singing, I mean, reading out poems and singing songs and that's something really moved in me at that point of time and it made me question what's my scene, know, what am I doing? So, and then at that point of time, I was also getting to know about some architects who had worked in India or architects from India. So like a guy called Laurie Baker, Charles Courier. So I would just, and then I did get some opportunity to visit some buildings in Delhi as well. So that kind of really opened it up that, okay, if I do this well, mean, like, I haven't even given a chance, you know? So let me just give it a good shot. Like, let me see how far it'll go. So yeah, then after that, really turned around for me. Like then once I went back, then I started, yeah, visiting libraries and reading books on architecture and history and stuff. So that really kind of like pulled me, you know, and then I felt that, okay, this is something that I can do. and yeah, I mean, I was just discovering myself, I guess. Yeah. That kind of thing. So, then it, yeah, it worked out.
Annabel: It worked out. So you kind of got pushed into architecture because you scored well and you took those opportunities. I've also been to Bombay and
Upendra: I well. If I scored well, I would be going into medical or engineering. So architecture is something that people didn't want to take.
Annabel: Okay. But it sounds like you got pushed into it and we're like, what am I doing here? but then found inspiration, it sounds like, and got actually really interested in it. I'm still absolutely convinced you can be the musician of your dreams if you want to. Because I think there's, you don't, You don't ever have to be forced to do one thing, you know?
Upendra: No, for sure. Back, like studying architecture and like it definitely changes the way you look at things. Yeah. And then now I kind of view music in a different way than I used to at that point of time, you know, and it makes a lot of sense. Like, yeah, the structure, the harmony, the melody. So all of that really makes sense.
Annabel: So you found music in architecture.
Upendra: Yeah, yeah.
Annabel: That's so cool.
Upendra: Yeah.
Annabel: Yeah. So you shared with me, you're in Sikkim now, and that's where you grew up as well. So what brought you from Delhi to Sikkim? What was that transition?
Upendra: So I always wanted to come back to Sikkim for sure, but then I did want to also work outside. I did work outside after my graduation and And I was a bit lost actually, like after the school. I didn't know what I wanted to do really, what kind of office that I want to join. so like just the basic, the fundamentals kind of like I learned about those stuff in college, but then I really hadn't developed a sense of direction like, develop a sense of approach like what kind of approach would I take towards this profession you know so I didn't know I was kind of lost still then I decided to come back because the city was getting too much then then there was this job that had opened up it was with UNDP and it was it was a very important like thing I felt at that point of time And it was to do with disaster management. then I was like, I was interviewed. mean, I was applying for this job, like where you for the position of urban planner, where you would kind of be responsible for formulating like a disaster management plan for the city. So that was something very challenging and interesting because I, I was interested in urbanism, but not like to that degree, you know, but then anyway, so that I applied for it and luckily I got it and then I worked for a few years in that project and yeah, and actually like what also happened was in between so there was this other thing that was happening. So remember this person that I was talking to you about like this person that I met in Delhi. So we used to have like, used to be in conversations and then, and I, and like me like being naive, I guess at that point of time, I just think, okay, we want to make a difference, but how do you make a difference? You cannot be outside the system and then make a difference. You know, you have to be in the system to make a difference, like, you know, so, so yeah, then I jumped at this opportunity thinking like, I need to be in like, otherwise then I won't be able to make a difference.
Annabel: I
Upendra: Yeah
Annabel: felt the same way about education that I had to be in it to make a change and then ended up jumping right out of it being like, no, it's fine. I'll work from the outside.
Upendra: Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me as well. yeah, so then I got into it and, yeah, after a few years and I got inducted into the government service as a assistant urban planner. And yeah, I mean, things were cushy, like, you know, over here, don't know if you know, like government job is a big deal. Like it's, you're
Annabel: It's Yeah.
Upendra: Exactly. You're secure, like your health is covered, your everything is covered, like your pensions, you have all the perks, all the benefits and everything. So it is a huge deal like over here, like to have a government job, you know, and it still is even today. then, yeah, but then like what happened over there was kind of Yeah, whatever potential I'd realized, you like, thought, I could do this. I could do that when I was in college. then, and slowly I was really getting sucked into that whole thing, you know, and then the complacency was kind of like kicking in. And then I was slowly, I mean, to put it like, you know, I wanted to change the system, but like the system. was changing me like, yeah.
Annabel: You know? Yeah.
Upendra: And then I was becoming very comfortable and with this salary and this stuff. And then I was like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not something that I want to do. And then, and I didn't see any growth. And then the things are very, very disheartening, like, in these offices, you know, it's, I wish it was much more productive. wish it was much more rigorous, but then it's not. It's very relaxed. come in the ice to go to office 10 o'clock in the morning and guys are like 10 o'clock in the morning, like they're solitaire and minesweeper and YouTube and I'm like, what's going on? Like you're supposed to be doing like work.
Annabel: Yeah.
Upendra: Yeah. So, and then yes. After a point of time, you stop like questioning that also, you know, and because you become like this sore thumb and then who is very like, like you want to work and all that. Like, so anyway, so, so I had to get out of it. So then I got out, I really got out and but then that was very difficult for my parents and it was very difficult for my family to accept that. you're leaving this like. very secure job and that was like really difficult time for me. Yeah, but I'm so glad I did it and I'm so happy I made that decision. Anyway, so I'm really, I don't know where am I like I've jumped like.
Annabel: No, no, I think it's like such a brave thing though that you made this decision to leave the comfortable job. Not many people do that anywhere in the world.
Upendra: No but sorry you asking why did I come back no?
Annabel: that's okay. Yeah, no, think you shared you always plan to come back, right? You were doing your education. That was such a good decision, even though it was so risky.
Upendra: Because after that, I mean, the growth that followed after that decision, I think is, I mean, has been very, very rewarding and has been very crucial for me to who I am today, you know. So, and that growth would have never happened or I would have never been able to go out and explore and I would never be. I wouldn't say I would never be but then like yeah it would have been very difficult for me to kind of find that kind of rigor and that kind of How do you put it? Like, yeah, I wouldn't be able to kind of be free in that sense to do or to be curious or to pursue things that I really want to pursue. That's why I think it's one of the best decisions to just to like kind of do the things like see architecture like as a profession also it requires a lot of thinking and being with it like being with the the craft and then kind of like spending a lot of time and and and it's something like it's of making right so so you kind of like have to immerse yourself I feel like it's it's I don't know about others but I feel I really have to immerse yourself in order to kind of know what you're doing and it's also a very I feel it's It's a job that has lot of impact on lives of people, like direct impact. So you have to be kind of responsible. You have to know what you're doing. And unless you immerse yourself into the subject and into the profession, it's a scary thing to do. it's just like just do half big things and like without understanding. So it's a... I feel that it requires that kind of time and then thinking. yeah, leaving that job really feed up that space for me, you know? So yeah.
Annabel: I think it's so cool that the government job is perceived as a path of freedom because there's security there. And yet you described it as you end up not really being engaged or focused or really having room to grow. And so it's like a trap. ends up being kind of a trap there. And also you mentioned earlier about your friend, but also your own interest in sociology and just the way you just described architecture made me think about that understanding the way that people live and the way the communities are formed would impact the architecture. And I just never thought of that before, but of course it does. Yeah. You almost have to be as an architect, like a historian and a sociologist, and you need to understand psychology. And it isn't just the math of how do buildings stay upright, right? Sikkim's a unique spot because you're surrounded by some of the biggest mountains in the world. You're in the foothills, sort of in a, think Gantuck is like in a,
Upendra: Gangtok is on a hill. There's
Annabel: Okay.
Upendra: a wider valley, there is a valley. But not as wide as the Kathmandu valley.
Annabel: Okay.
Upendra: So it is a pretty dramatic terrain we live in.
Annabel: And you get pretty intense monsoon seasons and quite a lot of rain just generally. It gets cold, it gets hot, it does everything, right? So what are some, if you don't mind talking more about like the architecture, I'm fascinated in the place that I live, the materials are so important, the size of the windows is important. where things are facing is so important. We have very strong winds. We have a whole season, I'm in it right now, that is just windy every day. And so there's a lot of things that are shaped like this, shaped like a hoop, or like a under case N, so that the wind passes over it. Otherwise, things would be getting knocked down all the time. So we have the wind, but you have the rain. So what is the kind of, what are you trying to build in Sekim? Architecturally, like what's the vision there?
Upendra: Yeah, so I'll tell you a little bit about what I learned in architecture school. So architecture school, the site that you're given as a design problem in the design like studios. Yeah, it's flat site, you know, most of our like design studios, it was based on flat sites like there were hardly any contoured or like these terrains like that we had to negotiate and also like it was a very different kind of like climatic zone like hot and dry and then you can have like flat roofs and like there's no you don't have to worry about in any case like everything is hypothetical in college so
Annabel: Yeah, yeah.
Upendra: when you come back to a terrain like Gangtok or like this Himalayas is like you have to really like I really struggled and I really struggled with how to do the roof, the retaining wall. There's so much a problem with like the moisture from the ground. There's moisture in the
Annabel: Yeah.
Upendra: air. And the way we want to orient the building, like you were talking about like these passive design like techniques, right? So, I mean, of course we want to orient our house towards the south, but what if the hill is not facing south, you know? What if it's facing north, right? So how do you deal with that situation? So you have to really come up with solutions. And also, the terrain itself. It's very difficult. can be very heavy-handed. If you don't know how to navigate this terrain, you can be very heavy-handed. big cut and then I kind of try to flatten out the land and then do that. But then that doesn't really work over here because you really create very unfavorable condition. Like there's a lot of dampness that comes from the back and then yeah, it's also not good for the environment and you disrupt the watershed. Because each site, I cannot tell you a particular formula or a particular way that we address architecture because each site is different, know, each site is different, each like requirement is different. So it is very site specific and even like the brief, like obviously what are you building? You know, like the program, like is it a house? Is it like, or even if it's a house, the what kind of family, what kind of socio-economic condition. So lot of things have to be kind of factored in, know. Yeah, I mean, but we try and create an architecture which is comfortable, which is economical, which addresses all the climate, I mean, all the climate issues, all the terrain issues, all the water issues. So this is like a given, like I don't think so that Any architect should be kind of like shying away from that. these things are there. But then the bigger concerns is around like also how you are approaching the site and how you are approaching the architecture also in a way like, know, in the sense like, what is your what are you trying to do? what kind of buildings do you want to have? What language should it like be in, you know? I mean, of course, like in 1992, when I mean, like we've become very globalized, basically, you know, over the years, and a lot of these materials are coming in and a lot of these this mainstream development is happening everywhere, you know, and this, and they have kind of really changed like, of course, the physical landscape also, but also at the same time, like the aspirations of people, like what they feel that is progress or what they feel is developed. So that has also kind of changed. then, whereas we've had like shelters over here for ages, you know, and people have kind of, learned how to work with whatever you have around, know, and especially build with materials that you locally find. So for us also, it's like, how do we kind of find that balance? Because of course, like there is good things the modern world has to offer. But then there are a lot of good things that the like the old world has to offer as well, you know. So how do you kind of like learn and like be prudent about like, So how do we kind of come somewhere in between where it's still rooted to the place and then, and it has, mean, of course you're using local materials like for various reasons, right? Like, I mean, if you look from a sustainable point of view, like there is, you're supporting local economy, there's less carbon footprint and so on and so forth. But at the same time, it is something that who we are also, there is a regional rootedness, I think, like it comes with when you're using like a material of the place. And of course, like there are problems with the old materials as well, with the old technology that people used to build with. And then how do you kind of identify that and how do you define that? And then how do you accommodate the changing lifestyle, the contemporary lifestyle that people have? Because earlier, things used to be very different. It was a gradient society. We had a different way of life. And now that has changed over the years. have white collar jobs and they don't work with the fields and they want everything compact and they want attached. toilets and like very comfortable modern houses. So and then so for us, okay, it is is what it is these changes are happening. But how do you kind of recontextualize some of the old like stuff to to to the modern times. So that's been our quest like, in a way like finding way to kind of grow from inside out not like to have like the outside swallow us like wholly.
Annabel: So, yeah. And though it's similar to what you were saying too about like working inside the system or outside the system. And it is like a back and forth, right? Also between like, you know, what our ancestors have learned that we should learn too. And then the current context we're in and what does that need and how do you continue to improve on things?
Upendra: Like this idea of continuity and change, right? how do we continue? At the same time, of course there are going to be changes, but then you got to be judicious of like, or you got to be aware of these changes that are happening, you know? yeah, so because it can, it shapes us, it shapes our landscape, it shapes our like...
Annabel: our thinking. We
Upendra: Yeah.
Annabel: spend a lot of time in our homes and we raise our families in homes and we it's not a minor thing, right? This is where we spend so much time in our space affects, like you said, the way we think and the way we feel. what are you excited about in the design world? Things that you like? So speaking to some of the change parts, what are some of the changes that you want to see happen?
Upendra: Yeah, in terms of design, mean, it's a continual process. I don't have like definitive answers that I want to see it like that. But I mean, like, I'm definitely working towards refining the craft itself, the refining some of the old technologies, construction technologies that exist, and how do we kind of improve on it. So it's a constant evolution. Like, yeah, it's a lot of experimentation. A lot of it is prototyping. I'm just talking in terms of technology and materials. then also in terms of design, so earlier I was telling you about this particular essay that I read, right? I've started to think now that the way I think of architecture has been shaped in some ways by by my formal training in architecture. I mean, not in some ways, in a lot of ways it's been shaped by the formal training that I've had, you know. And in that essay, was interesting was like, how did people like kind of build before the architecture profession existed, you know? And then they still had beautiful spaces. They still had a lot of dignified kind of like spaces. And so how do you, like for me, I want to explore that. how do you kind of, I don't think I can get rid of the formal like thinking and formal training, but then I want to get into that space, you know, where I want to be able to kind of like conceive of space. I want to unlearn probably, like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about.
Annabel: I do think that's a path of mastery of something, of like you learn, well, I think back to like artists, painters, for example, who they would study the great artists before them and they would copy their style completely. But then as they grew in their skill set, they moved and started to develop their own things and moved very far away from what they copied. And I think that's a normal process and it can feel like unlearning or it can feel like, but once you know enough of like the technical side of things, you can start to leave that more in the background and focus more on thinking in new ways. Because you know enough to be able to think in new ways. Yeah.
Upendra: And also, another thing that I forgot, so what kind of change? I want to probably work more with communities. So see, architecture has always been this profession where you work for a certain set of people with certain income bracket, you know? And as you may know, Like in India, our socioeconomic conditions are not that great, actually, you know, and there's a majority of people who might benefit a lot from design and architecture, I feel. And, but we don't get that opportunities often, you know, so I'm also looking for opportunities like that, where I'm more useful in that sense, like, Yeah, so I don't know when that is going to happen, but then I would want to work more towards that.
Annabel: I mean, that fits too with your interest in sustainable types of architecture and making that affordable for people. Do you see affordability showing up in like a more communal space as opposed to like single home, which does tend to be more expensive, right? Is that some of where your thinking's going or?
Upendra: Yeah, I mean, you put it nicely. Yeah. Yeah. And more like communal spaces, affordable. for sure.
Annabel: Is there a belief or assumption that you used to have about architecture and design that now that you know more has been totally changed and it's like a surprising, no, don't think that's true anymore.
Upendra: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think this book, like Iron Rand, like Fountainhead, it really like... So this is like a very influential book, right? I think a lot of architects find it like, want to be Howard Roark, like in the... in the book. So, but I feel, yeah, that's very egotistical. And, like, obviously, when you're growing up, and then you when you hear, I mean, when you when you read that book, and then you kind of see what Howard Roark is doing is fighting for the design is going and then, like, you know, blowing up this building, because the client didn't like, agree to his design, and things like that. So you feel like, wow, like, you know, like that's really, okay. And in some level, okay, fine. Like it's nice to be so convinced about yourself and convinced about the design. But then I think that is so arrogant, I feel that is so egotistical thing to do and to think that. you are right all the time. So, and then in my experience, I've, yeah, I mean, I've come to realize like you're right, not right all the time. In fact, don't be too sure of yourself. know.
Annabel: Yeah Like her philosophy is kind of, it's very bad and very fascist actually.
Upendra: Yeah, I mean like now, yeah for sure. At that point of time, you know, it's yeah.
Annabel: Because there's passion in, you know, she's very convincing. But she's total sociopath. But it doesn't mean, like her book still affected me in a good way ultimately, because it made me really, I'm now a lot more cautious if I read a book or watch something where the person's very convincing. I immediately start to question it now and that's thanks to her, I guess.
Upendra: Yeah. No, mean, like in architecture for sure, this particular example popped up, but then just in life, like I feel like sometimes when you, at least like that's what I've kind of experienced, when you gain like new knowledge, I think, and because you want to, I and say like it has a profound kind of like impact on you. And then you really think that, okay, that that's something that you it resonates with you. So in order to kind of like reinforce that in you, you tend to talk about it a lot, And then, so I was so kind of like angry also at the world. I'm just sharing like so you tend to become I think like preachy like you know you you go and talk to people about it and then you say you know what like this is not how it should be like I went through that phase a little bit you know and then like like you shouldn't be eating this or you shouldn't be doing that and you shouldn't be like whatever like you know and then and then it hit me maybe after a year or so that what am i i'm turning into a fanatic like i'm turning into like a like extremist you know like i'm like what am i becoming like and then i really had to kind of like center
Annabel: Yeah.
Upendra: myself
Annabel: Yeah. So I think that that's part of the learning journey. Like when you know a lit, like when you know a little bit, you can become very like enchanted by the little bit of knowledge that you have and you just want everybody to know it. But then when you know, learn more, you're like, well, actually, and you get more balance and moderation. So when I see someone Not always, but often if I see someone speaking like very judgmentally and passionately, I think they're just starting to learn about this. Like that's an indication that it's an early stage of knowledge, that excitement, know, like atoms just like bouncing off of each other. What are you most excited about that is coming up for you or that you're currently working on?
Upendra: Yeah, there are a couple of projects that I'm excited about. I was telling you about design and build, right? So, we're doing this couple of houses close by and then we have an in-house construction team. And the reason why we did that is also because, so people have gotten used to making the modern buildings. And they've kind of forgotten how to work with like local materials in a lot of ways. And that skills are kind of disappearing. And also like when we make drawings, that's very detailed and it's very difficult to kind of interpret that on site, you know, and then because of that quality is always affected. And buildings with natural material, if things are not done diligently, it'll perform poorly you know. So we don't want that also you know so we want quality in the work that we do so that's the reason we have these why we have the construction team and then we work very closely with them and we have trained like people over a period of time they work with us so they know how to read drawings so
Annabel: That's really cool.
Upendra: That's something that's really exciting. Like we're doing a couple of, I mean, like houses again, like close by. There's another project that I was excited, but it's on hold at the moment. It's in Arnachal. So it's this old cluster of like buildings, like it's in a village. It's in a place called Chuk Valley. And people have abandoned their... old like stone and timber houses and moved in into this new modern RCC reinforced concrete buildings. they've just abandoned it, you know, and then there are just a lot of these tourists who are coming over there and they are like staying in this modern RCC, whereas that these houses like up there just lying vacant and like, you know, so. So we are collaborating with WWF on this. They're part of the conservation team and they have people over there. So we're working with them to kind of like turn these abandoned houses into community homestays where people can make some livelihood over there. Yeah, so that's something that is exciting. Because a lot of people look up to Gangtok and think that that's progress. in a way, owning this tall building has become a status symbol. I've got five-story house. So yeah, it's crazy. So they say, you like over here, we also feel that you need to build light, you know, so one is because of earthquake, another because of geology. But building light makes sense because like they say, know, like buildings, it's not the earthquake that kills people, it's the buildings, you know. So if you make your buildings light, And if it's made out of timber, say like this particular technology called Ikra over here, where we weave bamboo and then make like infills of the walls. So if you have like houses like that, which can very well resist the forces, but worse to worse comes to worse, even if it collapses, it won't kill you, you know.
Annabel: Right, Bamboo isn't gonna smash and break bone.
Upendra: Yeah.
Annabel: And bamboo is like so sustainable and like how quickly you can regrow and replenish like it's unending.
Upendra: And, you know, so this, even in India, like, there's lot of these like, you can see the effects of climate change already right now. And the heat waves, the erratic like storms and cyclones and stuff like that. So I was thinking about it, know, say like the Earth's temperature goes up by whatever, two degrees or three degrees, and there's gonna be a lot of heat wave in India. And then people won't be, it'll be very difficult to kind of survive in that kind of like condition, especially in the mainland. And in the Himalayas, because of its altitude, it's still going to be okay. And things are gonna shift like, the crops are gonna shift, people are gonna move. In fact, people have already started buying properties and moving up this side. So I'm thinking, in future, what is this region going to look like? How are we going to accommodate if there is a mass migration, if this thing shifts radically, or if the weather patterns shift like happen, just heat waves and all happens.
Annabel: Yes.
Upendra: How is the situation going to be? Like how are you going to accommodate that many people in this limited area? know, so there's gonna be lot of potential for conflicts and things and then also like the ecosystem and everything. So anyway, like it worries me like thinking about this.
Annabel: do think it's worrying and you know, I think human beings, one of our greatest strengths, greatest weakness both is our ability to adapt very, very quickly and manipulate our environment and out here people, it's just normal to have a... a drain on your house that's catching water or to have your roof catch water and filter it through into a container that you can then use for growing vegetables, for example. And just like you said earlier, like it's very dependent on the context and what's needed, but I think the hopeful lens is thinking about climate resiliency. One last question here. know, imagining that there's someone maybe like yourself when you were younger or just someone who's interested in design, architecture, sustainable design, starting out, do you have any advice that you would want to share with them?
Upendra: I would say go for it. you know, it's very, very fulfilling. It's very rewarding. Maybe not in terms of money. And I don't know about that. then like, but just just like understanding life, because architecture is not just about buildings, you know, it's much more than that, I think. It's very much about arts and humanities and ecology and science and, yeah, philosophy and so much like it's a lot of kind of like, get to understand and so it is is a really, in a way it kind of really shapes or way of thinking, think, or looking at things. So, yeah, I would say definitely go for it, go for it and you have to work.
Annabel: hard work.
Upendra: That's a lot of hard work, yeah.
Annabel: I think good things do tend to be hard work. I mean, even just the way you're describing like the government job of like watching YouTube videos, that's maybe harder because you go home and you maybe don't feel like you did anything. But when you're doing something that's meaningful and take some hard work that can, it's hard, but it can maybe feel better. Like life can be a bit easier because you feel a little bit like, okay. I just have been good today and that's rewarding. Yeah.
Upendra: Yeah, you can sleep peacefully like, yeah.
Annabel: Exactly. I definitely want to shout out Studio Interweave, and I'll link that in the show notes. But are there other people or organizations that you would like to promote and just have people check out?
Upendra: Yeah, yeah. There is this organization called Munch. They are from Sikkim. They are working in a political space. It's a platform for critical thinkers and they are not scared of questioning the government and holding them accountable. have you heard of a place called Auroville? Yeah. I mean, lot of my growth has happened over there as well. Yeah, would definitely like, I would recommend like visiting once if possible, or at least looking into it. It's something experimental, like kind of a township. But then it's based on like, principles which are very, in my opinion, it's kind of liberal and in a way like it accounts for all of humanity, believes in human unity. A couple of local organizations also are doing good work. There's this organization called Conference Collective. They are an art collective, especially visual medium. I mean, in the sense like to do photography, there are a bunch of photographers who came together. They're also into research. They're archiving a lot of stuff and history as well. And then also, doing lot of workshops and exhibitions, kind of like introducing art to a larger population. I think that's it. That's about it.
Annabel: Awesome. Thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing parts of your story with me. I was fascinated. I think what you're doing is so important and interesting. And it was really delightful to meet you.
Upendra: Thank you Annabel, it was really nice talking to you. Towards the end I'm so comfortable, I want to talk more.
Annabel: I know we should we should talk more. I definitely think if you want to I would love to talk more
Annabel Furber: If you've enjoyed today's discussion, I invite you to share this episode and subscribe to Able Pathways podcast on your favorite platform. Your support helps us to share these meaningful conversations with more people. Have thoughts about this episode or suggestions for future guests. We would love to hear from you. Leave us a comment or email us at hello at ablepathways.com. Until next time, I'm Annabelle reminding you that there are infinite pathways to growth. May you travel yours with curiosity and courage.
Upendra: Nice to be here. Thank you, Annabel, for having me here. Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation. Yeah.
Annabel: All the way from Sikkim. Before though we get into your story around becoming an architect and all the interesting things you've gotten up to, what gets your attention? What do you like to watch or read or listen to?
Upendra: I move between things a lot. mean, especially work
Annabel: Yeah.
Upendra: and things that I do. I like doing music as well. And then, of course, there's family. So, I'm only moving between things. So, know what gets my attention. Yeah, I think... things in between in a way because like it's kind of everything feels interconnected. So what am I reading? So I'm reading this book of essays. I recently went to the School of Environment and Architecture in Bombay, and they gave me their publication. It's called First Questions. And it's quite interesting to kind of... Yeah, some of the essays are very interesting. And then it's also about how the school was formed and... what kind of pedagogic style or like what kind of pedagogy they're kind of looking into. Yeah, and there was this very interesting essay that I kind of came across and it was about... So before in India, like before architecture education was kind of formal, so there was the British kind of like came and then they made this, I mean, they made this institutions where they would kind of teach like craftsmanship skills. And yeah, so then that kind of like that method, that very orthographic drawing kind of method, and then those European construction methods in a way shaped like the architectural education in India in some sense. So anyway, so that's something that I found it pretty interesting. So recently I watched this movie called rental family. It's like a, have you seen that movie?
Annabel: No.
Upendra: No, no. So it's this guy called Brendan Fraser, like who's done a comeback after many years. I he did come back in another movie as well. But then anyways, was a very nice, like easy movie. And then listening. I've been listening to this Japanese artist, know, so his name is Chihei. I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly. But it's just basically just like ambient music. It really calms me down and it really helps me lower my BP, I guess. And it helps me focus as well, like in world. So yeah, that's something that I've been doing.
Annabel: Awesome. And what do you do that? Like, is there a practice you have that helps you, brings you some joy or helps you feel more peaceful or like just something that you engage with? That's not work. It's not family. It's just something for you. Do you have anything like that?
Upendra: Recently, I can think of I was with my wife and I was being silly and I was being stupid. I was saying something very embarrassing in a comical way. and the feeling of not being judged, you know, like it's nice. mean, so yeah, that's something that kind of stuck with me.
Annabel: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. And yeah, it's so relaxing to have people in your life that you could be ridiculous with.
Upendra: Yeah.
Annabel: And they can just laugh with you. Yeah. So you shared that you're an architect, trained architect, and you've also founded your own studio, Studio Interweave. But I'm really curious, where did that start for you? Did you know that you wanted to be an architect or how did you end up in this field? Tell me.
Upendra: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, like I knew very little about architecture when I was in school, you know, I mean, I knew about it, but then not to the extent that I, I mean, would want to go and pursue it, know, and actually, I, I was into music for a long time, and I thought I could do music, you know, and I wanted to pursue like career in music. And okay, I mean, It didn't happen, obviously. And somehow...
Annabel: Never say never. You never know.
Upendra: Never say never, never say never. I mean, I'm still doing music. there is a kind of like a full circle to this as well. So I'll get to that. But yeah, after my school. So over here, like in Sikkim, you do get like state quotas to get into like these government colleges. So if you are marks, you have to be on merit. So you do get like these quotas. somehow like my marks was okay in class 12, grade 12 and then I could qualify for these colleges, know, like these architecture colleges and so my dad kind of told me, hey, listen, like, why don't you try this? Like, maybe it's good for you. And then I thought about it and then I thought, okay, why not? You know, and then moreover that kind of that college was in Bombay. So I thought that, okay, I'll go to Bombay and then maybe like still like do my music and then maybe slowly kind of move away from architecture and get into that, know. But yeah, life had other plans for me. So when I went to Bombay, like there was this big thing that happened. I mean, it's something like to do with my mom, like she didn't really there was this incident that happened over there and then which kind of really made us think that do you really I mean at least them like think that would you really want to stay in a place like this. then, yeah, we had to talk to the education department over there. And then they said, okay, there's another college in central India where you can go as part of the state like Maharashtra itself. And so that state is very conservative. And it's very, it's in the heartland. And it's very hot also, you know. First of all, the place itself kind of like was very deadening. And then after the school, like the school where you're to learn like space, like making or place making, that itself was very uninspiring, you know? And so yeah, first two years I really kind of struggled over there. Then I thought I'll take a break, you know? So then I moved to Delhi for a year. things opened up, you know, so then I met like really good people. There was this particular person like named Sona. She was studying sociology and then she was in this university called Jawaharlal Nehru University, So yeah, I mean, she used to me lot of things. talked about, I mean, like, maybe I didn't know enough then, not maybe, I didn't know enough then about history and about social sciences in that sense, you know. And anyway, so it made all sense like when I met her and then she was also cool and she was telling me about hippie movement, anti-machinist and like LSD and all of that. So it was just so cool, you know, and so yeah, so that kind of really fascinated. I saw this group of people who were so passionate about making a difference in society and they were talking about equality and justice and they were singing, I mean, reading out poems and singing songs and that's something really moved in me at that point of time and it made me question what's my scene, know, what am I doing? So, and then at that point of time, I was also getting to know about some architects who had worked in India or architects from India. So like a guy called Laurie Baker, Charles Courier. So I would just, and then I did get some opportunity to visit some buildings in Delhi as well. So that kind of really opened it up that, okay, if I do this well, mean, like, I haven't even given a chance, you know? So let me just give it a good shot. Like, let me see how far it'll go. So yeah, then after that, really turned around for me. Like then once I went back, then I started, yeah, visiting libraries and reading books on architecture and history and stuff. So that really kind of like pulled me, you know, and then I felt that, okay, this is something that I can do. and yeah, I mean, I was just discovering myself, I guess. Yeah. That kind of thing. So, then it, yeah, it worked out.
Annabel: It worked out. So you kind of got pushed into architecture because you scored well and you took those opportunities. I've also been to Bombay and
Upendra: I well. If I scored well, I would be going into medical or engineering. So architecture is something that people didn't want to take.
Annabel: Okay. But it sounds like you got pushed into it and we're like, what am I doing here? but then found inspiration, it sounds like, and got actually really interested in it. I'm still absolutely convinced you can be the musician of your dreams if you want to. Because I think there's, you don't, You don't ever have to be forced to do one thing, you know?
Upendra: No, for sure. Back, like studying architecture and like it definitely changes the way you look at things. Yeah. And then now I kind of view music in a different way than I used to at that point of time, you know, and it makes a lot of sense. Like, yeah, the structure, the harmony, the melody. So all of that really makes sense.
Annabel: So you found music in architecture.
Upendra: Yeah, yeah.
Annabel: That's so cool.
Upendra: Yeah.
Annabel: Yeah. So you shared with me, you're in Sikkim now, and that's where you grew up as well. So what brought you from Delhi to Sikkim? What was that transition?
Upendra: So I always wanted to come back to Sikkim for sure, but then I did want to also work outside. I did work outside after my graduation and And I was a bit lost actually, like after the school. I didn't know what I wanted to do really, what kind of office that I want to join. so like just the basic, the fundamentals kind of like I learned about those stuff in college, but then I really hadn't developed a sense of direction like, develop a sense of approach like what kind of approach would I take towards this profession you know so I didn't know I was kind of lost still then I decided to come back because the city was getting too much then then there was this job that had opened up it was with UNDP and it was it was a very important like thing I felt at that point of time And it was to do with disaster management. then I was like, I was interviewed. mean, I was applying for this job, like where you for the position of urban planner, where you would kind of be responsible for formulating like a disaster management plan for the city. So that was something very challenging and interesting because I, I was interested in urbanism, but not like to that degree, you know, but then anyway, so that I applied for it and luckily I got it and then I worked for a few years in that project and yeah, and actually like what also happened was in between so there was this other thing that was happening. So remember this person that I was talking to you about like this person that I met in Delhi. So we used to have like, used to be in conversations and then, and I, and like me like being naive, I guess at that point of time, I just think, okay, we want to make a difference, but how do you make a difference? You cannot be outside the system and then make a difference. You know, you have to be in the system to make a difference, like, you know, so, so yeah, then I jumped at this opportunity thinking like, I need to be in like, otherwise then I won't be able to make a difference.
Annabel: I
Upendra: Yeah
Annabel: felt the same way about education that I had to be in it to make a change and then ended up jumping right out of it being like, no, it's fine. I'll work from the outside.
Upendra: Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me as well. yeah, so then I got into it and, yeah, after a few years and I got inducted into the government service as a assistant urban planner. And yeah, I mean, things were cushy, like, you know, over here, don't know if you know, like government job is a big deal. Like it's, you're
Annabel: It's Yeah.
Upendra: Exactly. You're secure, like your health is covered, your everything is covered, like your pensions, you have all the perks, all the benefits and everything. So it is a huge deal like over here, like to have a government job, you know, and it still is even today. then, yeah, but then like what happened over there was kind of Yeah, whatever potential I'd realized, you like, thought, I could do this. I could do that when I was in college. then, and slowly I was really getting sucked into that whole thing, you know, and then the complacency was kind of like kicking in. And then I was slowly, I mean, to put it like, you know, I wanted to change the system, but like the system. was changing me like, yeah.
Annabel: You know? Yeah.
Upendra: And then I was becoming very comfortable and with this salary and this stuff. And then I was like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not something that I want to do. And then, and I didn't see any growth. And then the things are very, very disheartening, like, in these offices, you know, it's, I wish it was much more productive. wish it was much more rigorous, but then it's not. It's very relaxed. come in the ice to go to office 10 o'clock in the morning and guys are like 10 o'clock in the morning, like they're solitaire and minesweeper and YouTube and I'm like, what's going on? Like you're supposed to be doing like work.
Annabel: Yeah.
Upendra: Yeah. So, and then yes. After a point of time, you stop like questioning that also, you know, and because you become like this sore thumb and then who is very like, like you want to work and all that. Like, so anyway, so, so I had to get out of it. So then I got out, I really got out and but then that was very difficult for my parents and it was very difficult for my family to accept that. you're leaving this like. very secure job and that was like really difficult time for me. Yeah, but I'm so glad I did it and I'm so happy I made that decision. Anyway, so I'm really, I don't know where am I like I've jumped like.
Annabel: No, no, I think it's like such a brave thing though that you made this decision to leave the comfortable job. Not many people do that anywhere in the world.
Upendra: No but sorry you asking why did I come back no?
Annabel: that's okay. Yeah, no, think you shared you always plan to come back, right? You were doing your education. That was such a good decision, even though it was so risky.
Upendra: Because after that, I mean, the growth that followed after that decision, I think is, I mean, has been very, very rewarding and has been very crucial for me to who I am today, you know. So, and that growth would have never happened or I would have never been able to go out and explore and I would never be. I wouldn't say I would never be but then like yeah it would have been very difficult for me to kind of find that kind of rigor and that kind of How do you put it? Like, yeah, I wouldn't be able to kind of be free in that sense to do or to be curious or to pursue things that I really want to pursue. That's why I think it's one of the best decisions to just to like kind of do the things like see architecture like as a profession also it requires a lot of thinking and being with it like being with the the craft and then kind of like spending a lot of time and and and it's something like it's of making right so so you kind of like have to immerse yourself I feel like it's it's I don't know about others but I feel I really have to immerse yourself in order to kind of know what you're doing and it's also a very I feel it's It's a job that has lot of impact on lives of people, like direct impact. So you have to be kind of responsible. You have to know what you're doing. And unless you immerse yourself into the subject and into the profession, it's a scary thing to do. it's just like just do half big things and like without understanding. So it's a... I feel that it requires that kind of time and then thinking. yeah, leaving that job really feed up that space for me, you know? So yeah.
Annabel: I think it's so cool that the government job is perceived as a path of freedom because there's security there. And yet you described it as you end up not really being engaged or focused or really having room to grow. And so it's like a trap. ends up being kind of a trap there. And also you mentioned earlier about your friend, but also your own interest in sociology and just the way you just described architecture made me think about that understanding the way that people live and the way the communities are formed would impact the architecture. And I just never thought of that before, but of course it does. Yeah. You almost have to be as an architect, like a historian and a sociologist, and you need to understand psychology. And it isn't just the math of how do buildings stay upright, right? Sikkim's a unique spot because you're surrounded by some of the biggest mountains in the world. You're in the foothills, sort of in a, think Gantuck is like in a,
Upendra: Gangtok is on a hill. There's
Annabel: Okay.
Upendra: a wider valley, there is a valley. But not as wide as the Kathmandu valley.
Annabel: Okay.
Upendra: So it is a pretty dramatic terrain we live in.
Annabel: And you get pretty intense monsoon seasons and quite a lot of rain just generally. It gets cold, it gets hot, it does everything, right? So what are some, if you don't mind talking more about like the architecture, I'm fascinated in the place that I live, the materials are so important, the size of the windows is important. where things are facing is so important. We have very strong winds. We have a whole season, I'm in it right now, that is just windy every day. And so there's a lot of things that are shaped like this, shaped like a hoop, or like a under case N, so that the wind passes over it. Otherwise, things would be getting knocked down all the time. So we have the wind, but you have the rain. So what is the kind of, what are you trying to build in Sekim? Architecturally, like what's the vision there?
Upendra: Yeah, so I'll tell you a little bit about what I learned in architecture school. So architecture school, the site that you're given as a design problem in the design like studios. Yeah, it's flat site, you know, most of our like design studios, it was based on flat sites like there were hardly any contoured or like these terrains like that we had to negotiate and also like it was a very different kind of like climatic zone like hot and dry and then you can have like flat roofs and like there's no you don't have to worry about in any case like everything is hypothetical in college so
Annabel: Yeah, yeah.
Upendra: when you come back to a terrain like Gangtok or like this Himalayas is like you have to really like I really struggled and I really struggled with how to do the roof, the retaining wall. There's so much a problem with like the moisture from the ground. There's moisture in the
Annabel: Yeah.
Upendra: air. And the way we want to orient the building, like you were talking about like these passive design like techniques, right? So, I mean, of course we want to orient our house towards the south, but what if the hill is not facing south, you know? What if it's facing north, right? So how do you deal with that situation? So you have to really come up with solutions. And also, the terrain itself. It's very difficult. can be very heavy-handed. If you don't know how to navigate this terrain, you can be very heavy-handed. big cut and then I kind of try to flatten out the land and then do that. But then that doesn't really work over here because you really create very unfavorable condition. Like there's a lot of dampness that comes from the back and then yeah, it's also not good for the environment and you disrupt the watershed. Because each site, I cannot tell you a particular formula or a particular way that we address architecture because each site is different, know, each site is different, each like requirement is different. So it is very site specific and even like the brief, like obviously what are you building? You know, like the program, like is it a house? Is it like, or even if it's a house, the what kind of family, what kind of socio-economic condition. So lot of things have to be kind of factored in, know. Yeah, I mean, but we try and create an architecture which is comfortable, which is economical, which addresses all the climate, I mean, all the climate issues, all the terrain issues, all the water issues. So this is like a given, like I don't think so that Any architect should be kind of like shying away from that. these things are there. But then the bigger concerns is around like also how you are approaching the site and how you are approaching the architecture also in a way like, know, in the sense like, what is your what are you trying to do? what kind of buildings do you want to have? What language should it like be in, you know? I mean, of course, like in 1992, when I mean, like we've become very globalized, basically, you know, over the years, and a lot of these materials are coming in and a lot of these this mainstream development is happening everywhere, you know, and this, and they have kind of really changed like, of course, the physical landscape also, but also at the same time, like the aspirations of people, like what they feel that is progress or what they feel is developed. So that has also kind of changed. then, whereas we've had like shelters over here for ages, you know, and people have kind of, learned how to work with whatever you have around, know, and especially build with materials that you locally find. So for us also, it's like, how do we kind of find that balance? Because of course, like there is good things the modern world has to offer. But then there are a lot of good things that the like the old world has to offer as well, you know. So how do you kind of like learn and like be prudent about like, So how do we kind of come somewhere in between where it's still rooted to the place and then, and it has, mean, of course you're using local materials like for various reasons, right? Like, I mean, if you look from a sustainable point of view, like there is, you're supporting local economy, there's less carbon footprint and so on and so forth. But at the same time, it is something that who we are also, there is a regional rootedness, I think, like it comes with when you're using like a material of the place. And of course, like there are problems with the old materials as well, with the old technology that people used to build with. And then how do you kind of identify that and how do you define that? And then how do you accommodate the changing lifestyle, the contemporary lifestyle that people have? Because earlier, things used to be very different. It was a gradient society. We had a different way of life. And now that has changed over the years. have white collar jobs and they don't work with the fields and they want everything compact and they want attached. toilets and like very comfortable modern houses. So and then so for us, okay, it is is what it is these changes are happening. But how do you kind of recontextualize some of the old like stuff to to to the modern times. So that's been our quest like, in a way like finding way to kind of grow from inside out not like to have like the outside swallow us like wholly.
Annabel: So, yeah. And though it's similar to what you were saying too about like working inside the system or outside the system. And it is like a back and forth, right? Also between like, you know, what our ancestors have learned that we should learn too. And then the current context we're in and what does that need and how do you continue to improve on things?
Upendra: Like this idea of continuity and change, right? how do we continue? At the same time, of course there are going to be changes, but then you got to be judicious of like, or you got to be aware of these changes that are happening, you know? yeah, so because it can, it shapes us, it shapes our landscape, it shapes our like...
Annabel: our thinking. We
Upendra: Yeah.
Annabel: spend a lot of time in our homes and we raise our families in homes and we it's not a minor thing, right? This is where we spend so much time in our space affects, like you said, the way we think and the way we feel. what are you excited about in the design world? Things that you like? So speaking to some of the change parts, what are some of the changes that you want to see happen?
Upendra: Yeah, in terms of design, mean, it's a continual process. I don't have like definitive answers that I want to see it like that. But I mean, like, I'm definitely working towards refining the craft itself, the refining some of the old technologies, construction technologies that exist, and how do we kind of improve on it. So it's a constant evolution. Like, yeah, it's a lot of experimentation. A lot of it is prototyping. I'm just talking in terms of technology and materials. then also in terms of design, so earlier I was telling you about this particular essay that I read, right? I've started to think now that the way I think of architecture has been shaped in some ways by by my formal training in architecture. I mean, not in some ways, in a lot of ways it's been shaped by the formal training that I've had, you know. And in that essay, was interesting was like, how did people like kind of build before the architecture profession existed, you know? And then they still had beautiful spaces. They still had a lot of dignified kind of like spaces. And so how do you, like for me, I want to explore that. how do you kind of, I don't think I can get rid of the formal like thinking and formal training, but then I want to get into that space, you know, where I want to be able to kind of like conceive of space. I want to unlearn probably, like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about.
Annabel: I do think that's a path of mastery of something, of like you learn, well, I think back to like artists, painters, for example, who they would study the great artists before them and they would copy their style completely. But then as they grew in their skill set, they moved and started to develop their own things and moved very far away from what they copied. And I think that's a normal process and it can feel like unlearning or it can feel like, but once you know enough of like the technical side of things, you can start to leave that more in the background and focus more on thinking in new ways. Because you know enough to be able to think in new ways. Yeah.
Upendra: And also, another thing that I forgot, so what kind of change? I want to probably work more with communities. So see, architecture has always been this profession where you work for a certain set of people with certain income bracket, you know? And as you may know, Like in India, our socioeconomic conditions are not that great, actually, you know, and there's a majority of people who might benefit a lot from design and architecture, I feel. And, but we don't get that opportunities often, you know, so I'm also looking for opportunities like that, where I'm more useful in that sense, like, Yeah, so I don't know when that is going to happen, but then I would want to work more towards that.
Annabel: I mean, that fits too with your interest in sustainable types of architecture and making that affordable for people. Do you see affordability showing up in like a more communal space as opposed to like single home, which does tend to be more expensive, right? Is that some of where your thinking's going or?
Upendra: Yeah, I mean, you put it nicely. Yeah. Yeah. And more like communal spaces, affordable. for sure.
Annabel: Is there a belief or assumption that you used to have about architecture and design that now that you know more has been totally changed and it's like a surprising, no, don't think that's true anymore.
Upendra: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think this book, like Iron Rand, like Fountainhead, it really like... So this is like a very influential book, right? I think a lot of architects find it like, want to be Howard Roark, like in the... in the book. So, but I feel, yeah, that's very egotistical. And, like, obviously, when you're growing up, and then you when you hear, I mean, when you when you read that book, and then you kind of see what Howard Roark is doing is fighting for the design is going and then, like, you know, blowing up this building, because the client didn't like, agree to his design, and things like that. So you feel like, wow, like, you know, like that's really, okay. And in some level, okay, fine. Like it's nice to be so convinced about yourself and convinced about the design. But then I think that is so arrogant, I feel that is so egotistical thing to do and to think that. you are right all the time. So, and then in my experience, I've, yeah, I mean, I've come to realize like you're right, not right all the time. In fact, don't be too sure of yourself. know.
Annabel: Yeah Like her philosophy is kind of, it's very bad and very fascist actually.
Upendra: Yeah, I mean like now, yeah for sure. At that point of time, you know, it's yeah.
Annabel: Because there's passion in, you know, she's very convincing. But she's total sociopath. But it doesn't mean, like her book still affected me in a good way ultimately, because it made me really, I'm now a lot more cautious if I read a book or watch something where the person's very convincing. I immediately start to question it now and that's thanks to her, I guess.
Upendra: Yeah. No, mean, like in architecture for sure, this particular example popped up, but then just in life, like I feel like sometimes when you, at least like that's what I've kind of experienced, when you gain like new knowledge, I think, and because you want to, I and say like it has a profound kind of like impact on you. And then you really think that, okay, that that's something that you it resonates with you. So in order to kind of like reinforce that in you, you tend to talk about it a lot, And then, so I was so kind of like angry also at the world. I'm just sharing like so you tend to become I think like preachy like you know you you go and talk to people about it and then you say you know what like this is not how it should be like I went through that phase a little bit you know and then like like you shouldn't be eating this or you shouldn't be doing that and you shouldn't be like whatever like you know and then and then it hit me maybe after a year or so that what am i i'm turning into a fanatic like i'm turning into like a like extremist you know like i'm like what am i becoming like and then i really had to kind of like center
Annabel: Yeah.
Upendra: myself
Annabel: Yeah. So I think that that's part of the learning journey. Like when you know a lit, like when you know a little bit, you can become very like enchanted by the little bit of knowledge that you have and you just want everybody to know it. But then when you know, learn more, you're like, well, actually, and you get more balance and moderation. So when I see someone Not always, but often if I see someone speaking like very judgmentally and passionately, I think they're just starting to learn about this. Like that's an indication that it's an early stage of knowledge, that excitement, know, like atoms just like bouncing off of each other. What are you most excited about that is coming up for you or that you're currently working on?
Upendra: Yeah, there are a couple of projects that I'm excited about. I was telling you about design and build, right? So, we're doing this couple of houses close by and then we have an in-house construction team. And the reason why we did that is also because, so people have gotten used to making the modern buildings. And they've kind of forgotten how to work with like local materials in a lot of ways. And that skills are kind of disappearing. And also like when we make drawings, that's very detailed and it's very difficult to kind of interpret that on site, you know, and then because of that quality is always affected. And buildings with natural material, if things are not done diligently, it'll perform poorly you know. So we don't want that also you know so we want quality in the work that we do so that's the reason we have these why we have the construction team and then we work very closely with them and we have trained like people over a period of time they work with us so they know how to read drawings so
Annabel: That's really cool.
Upendra: That's something that's really exciting. Like we're doing a couple of, I mean, like houses again, like close by. There's another project that I was excited, but it's on hold at the moment. It's in Arnachal. So it's this old cluster of like buildings, like it's in a village. It's in a place called Chuk Valley. And people have abandoned their... old like stone and timber houses and moved in into this new modern RCC reinforced concrete buildings. they've just abandoned it, you know, and then there are just a lot of these tourists who are coming over there and they are like staying in this modern RCC, whereas that these houses like up there just lying vacant and like, you know, so. So we are collaborating with WWF on this. They're part of the conservation team and they have people over there. So we're working with them to kind of like turn these abandoned houses into community homestays where people can make some livelihood over there. Yeah, so that's something that is exciting. Because a lot of people look up to Gangtok and think that that's progress. in a way, owning this tall building has become a status symbol. I've got five-story house. So yeah, it's crazy. So they say, you like over here, we also feel that you need to build light, you know, so one is because of earthquake, another because of geology. But building light makes sense because like they say, know, like buildings, it's not the earthquake that kills people, it's the buildings, you know. So if you make your buildings light, And if it's made out of timber, say like this particular technology called Ikra over here, where we weave bamboo and then make like infills of the walls. So if you have like houses like that, which can very well resist the forces, but worse to worse comes to worse, even if it collapses, it won't kill you, you know.
Annabel: Right, Bamboo isn't gonna smash and break bone.
Upendra: Yeah.
Annabel: And bamboo is like so sustainable and like how quickly you can regrow and replenish like it's unending.
Upendra: And, you know, so this, even in India, like, there's lot of these like, you can see the effects of climate change already right now. And the heat waves, the erratic like storms and cyclones and stuff like that. So I was thinking about it, know, say like the Earth's temperature goes up by whatever, two degrees or three degrees, and there's gonna be a lot of heat wave in India. And then people won't be, it'll be very difficult to kind of survive in that kind of like condition, especially in the mainland. And in the Himalayas, because of its altitude, it's still going to be okay. And things are gonna shift like, the crops are gonna shift, people are gonna move. In fact, people have already started buying properties and moving up this side. So I'm thinking, in future, what is this region going to look like? How are we going to accommodate if there is a mass migration, if this thing shifts radically, or if the weather patterns shift like happen, just heat waves and all happens.
Annabel: Yes.
Upendra: How is the situation going to be? Like how are you going to accommodate that many people in this limited area? know, so there's gonna be lot of potential for conflicts and things and then also like the ecosystem and everything. So anyway, like it worries me like thinking about this.
Annabel: do think it's worrying and you know, I think human beings, one of our greatest strengths, greatest weakness both is our ability to adapt very, very quickly and manipulate our environment and out here people, it's just normal to have a... a drain on your house that's catching water or to have your roof catch water and filter it through into a container that you can then use for growing vegetables, for example. And just like you said earlier, like it's very dependent on the context and what's needed, but I think the hopeful lens is thinking about climate resiliency. One last question here. know, imagining that there's someone maybe like yourself when you were younger or just someone who's interested in design, architecture, sustainable design, starting out, do you have any advice that you would want to share with them?
Upendra: I would say go for it. you know, it's very, very fulfilling. It's very rewarding. Maybe not in terms of money. And I don't know about that. then like, but just just like understanding life, because architecture is not just about buildings, you know, it's much more than that, I think. It's very much about arts and humanities and ecology and science and, yeah, philosophy and so much like it's a lot of kind of like, get to understand and so it is is a really, in a way it kind of really shapes or way of thinking, think, or looking at things. So, yeah, I would say definitely go for it, go for it and you have to work.
Annabel: hard work.
Upendra: That's a lot of hard work, yeah.
Annabel: I think good things do tend to be hard work. I mean, even just the way you're describing like the government job of like watching YouTube videos, that's maybe harder because you go home and you maybe don't feel like you did anything. But when you're doing something that's meaningful and take some hard work that can, it's hard, but it can maybe feel better. Like life can be a bit easier because you feel a little bit like, okay. I just have been good today and that's rewarding. Yeah.
Upendra: Yeah, you can sleep peacefully like, yeah.
Annabel: Exactly. I definitely want to shout out Studio Interweave, and I'll link that in the show notes. But are there other people or organizations that you would like to promote and just have people check out?
Upendra: Yeah, yeah. There is this organization called Munch. They are from Sikkim. They are working in a political space. It's a platform for critical thinkers and they are not scared of questioning the government and holding them accountable. have you heard of a place called Auroville? Yeah. I mean, lot of my growth has happened over there as well. Yeah, would definitely like, I would recommend like visiting once if possible, or at least looking into it. It's something experimental, like kind of a township. But then it's based on like, principles which are very, in my opinion, it's kind of liberal and in a way like it accounts for all of humanity, believes in human unity. A couple of local organizations also are doing good work. There's this organization called Conference Collective. They are an art collective, especially visual medium. I mean, in the sense like to do photography, there are a bunch of photographers who came together. They're also into research. They're archiving a lot of stuff and history as well. And then also, doing lot of workshops and exhibitions, kind of like introducing art to a larger population. I think that's it. That's about it.
Annabel: Awesome. Thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing parts of your story with me. I was fascinated. I think what you're doing is so important and interesting. And it was really delightful to meet you.
Upendra: Thank you Annabel, it was really nice talking to you. Towards the end I'm so comfortable, I want to talk more.
Annabel: I know we should we should talk more. I definitely think if you want to I would love to talk more
Annabel Furber: If you've enjoyed today's discussion, I invite you to share this episode and subscribe to Able Pathways podcast on your favorite platform. Your support helps us to share these meaningful conversations with more people. Have thoughts about this episode or suggestions for future guests. We would love to hear from you. Leave us a comment or email us at hello at ablepathways.com. Until next time, I'm Annabelle reminding you that there are infinite pathways to growth. May you travel yours with curiosity and courage.
