Craft, Collaboration & Vision: Gretchen Warthen’s Cinematic World

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I'm Chris Stafford and This is Art, the podcast about women from the world
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of visual arts. My guest this
week is Gretchen Whorthan, an American cinematographer
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whose work has taken her from Hollywood
sound stages to shooting from the back of
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a camel in India, an elephant
in Thailand, the bow of a boat
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off Venezuela, hovering over Alaska glaciers, and the deserts of the Sahara in
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a helicopter. Gretchen was born in
Idaho, the only child of parents Katharine
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Whorthan, a retired horticulturist, and
Brian Whorthan, who, after a lifetime
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of struggle, found his true success
in graphic As a child, Gretchen was
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a tough girl in school with a
rebellious nature. After high school, she
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headed to Boise State University, where
she gained a bachelor's in communications, before
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moving to Washington State, where she
went back to school at the Evergreen State
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College for a bachelor's in Liberal Arts. It was at Boise State that she
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began taking an interest in filmmaking and
undertook projects that showed her natural talent for
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the art, which led her to
pursue a career in the industry. By
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then, Gretchen had a plan to
be a camera operator, and she steered
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her course, starting in wardrobe,
through set design and props until she was
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on set where she wanted to be. Her youthful defiance and determination paid off
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and led her to success across genres. Gretchen has worked as the director of
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photography for the Emmy nominated Netflix documentary
Circus of Books, the epic international own
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documentary series Operation Change, the Emmy
award winning NBC series Starting Over, the
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Showtime documentary series The Real l Word, and the award winning documentary feature East
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La Interchange. She is also dped
to Award winning narrative feature films Sharon Glesses,
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Hannah Free, and Jamie and Jesse
Are Not Together. Gretchen has also
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been a camera operator on popular Emmy
Award winning primetime reality programming including Project Runway,
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The Apprentice, and America's Next Top
Model. Her narrative credits also include
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FX's Mayan's MC, Fox's Call Me
Kat, and Fox's Welcome to Flatch.
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Gretchen has also been a camera operator
on the popular live comedy specials, including
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Netflix's Day Chapel Age of Spin and
Hannah Gadsby Douglas. When she's not working,
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Gretchen's passion is collecting vesper scooters and
driving fast cars. She lives in
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LA with her partner, documentary director
and Unscripted reality co executive producer Natalie Watts.
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Gretchen, Hi, welcome to the
podcast. Well, hi, Chris,
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thank you for having me. Well, I know from the times we've
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spoken before that this actually could be
and we should actually maybe add a warning.
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This could be a very long podcast
because you and I think talk for
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hours. Hilarious. Yeah, it
could be. You're very easy to talk
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to, so yeah, it could
be longer than than normal. I know
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you've been listening to the show too. You know what you let yourself in
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for. Yeah, I kind of
do know what I've let myself in for.
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When you first talked to me,
I hadn't listened to any of the
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podcasts yet. I'm like, okay, yeah, but like listening all the
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stories and the journeys that women have
been on in so many any interesting or
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crazy or it's very intense experiences in
their lives, and how that kind of
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how they were so vulnerable and willing
to share that and then how it influenced
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their art or maybe didn't. So
yeah, now I'm a little intimidated.
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Well you shouldn't because you're into storytelling
anyway, right, So podcasting is a
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natural environment for you, I suppose, so, like I, I guess,
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I listen to people's stories and then
just follow it with my lens.
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So it's as though I'm listening through
my eyes. But I do let my
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I you know, I talk quite
often. I work in documentary and unscripted.
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I do script it also, but
my love is documentary, and it's
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all just about listening to what people
have to say and choosing the right you
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know, focal lengths on the lens
and how far I'm going to be away
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from them or how close to like
tell their story. And it's interesting,
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like how close or far you are
from someone how it will influence how they're
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going to share their story. So
it's important to kind of like pay attention
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to verbal cues and or nonverbal cues
with their body language. And but you
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know, because I'm behind the camera, I'm not the one that's talking.
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I'm I'm not asking the interview questions
or I'm not the person that I'm following
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around so I can I have the
luxury of not having to have the intern
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my internal dialogue wondering what I'm going
to say next, or what question I'm
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going to say, or where it
might go. I can turn all that
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off and just listen to what they're
doing. And Yeah, it's a real
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gift to be able to just listen
to people and let that drive my lens
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to follow them around. You become
the interloper and not the intruder. Yeah,
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and it's nice, especially I work
in reality from time to time.
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That's kind of where I got my
start was in reality because they they not
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a lot of women, but there
were women there as camera operators. So
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that's where I got my entry.
But I do a lot of I love
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competition reality, and specifically when it
has to do with like people who are
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artists or creators, because I can't
speak to them. So I'm in this
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room with twelve creators, like at
the beginning, there's usually about a dozen
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before they start being eliminated, and
I'm just free to wander around the room
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and it's like, oh, wow, what's that person making? And I
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get to get as close to what
they're making as I want to and look
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at it, and then you know, once I feel like I have a
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good handle on it, I look
somewhere else in the room and it's like,
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oh, what are they doing?
So I get paid to wander around
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with my camera and silently watch people
create, and it's starts with them with
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a blank slate, and then at
the end it's, you know, whatever
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it's going to be. I did
Project Runway for years, and I was
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I was in a clothes when I
was younger, but I didn't know how
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they were made or the process,
and it was just endlessly fascinating. I
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love that show. And then I
did Making the Cuts with a tin Gun
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and Heidi Klume and that's more of
an international version of Project Runway. And
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you've got all these talented designers from
all over the world with all these different
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ways of viewing clothes and fabric and
making, and I I just love it.
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It never gets old. I just
love it because you began your career
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in wardrobe, didn't you. You
moved around the closet and then to set
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design and made your way to hang
around with the camera operators, and you
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knew where you were. Pathway was
intended. So like any industry, right
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we really have to just get in
there at the start and do anything,
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because if you know, that's where
you get the experience which helps you when
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you eventually reach your goal. Right. Yeah, Yeah, it was a
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very kind of circuitous route. I
knew that camera was where in like the
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story of how I got into where
I picked up my first camera, It's
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like I knew in that in that
few day experience cameras where I was going
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to go. But getting there is
hard because it's like it's this sexy job.
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The camera operator, like everybody looks
to them, is like the one
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that runs this set sometimes the director
and the camera operator, and so it's
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very competitive to get into. And
it was when I started, it was
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all guys and I just I knew
I needed to be on sets. I
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was like, I need to come
up with a plan. And so the
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first job I got was in wardrobe, and I was a shopper and I
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would go it was very low budget, so we would go to thrift stores
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and it was all it wasn't really
a period piece, but the people all
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needed to look like they didn't have
great clothes. So we went to thrift
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stores where you know you can find
clothes that look like people have worn them
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a few times, and so,
you know, dressed all these people and
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we had guns on that set,
and I talked to the ad about weapons
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handling and all that good stuff.
And so even though I was doing wardrobe,
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I was looking at everybody on set
and talking to the camera department and
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getting information from them and tips and
tricks, and I made my intention known
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on any set that I was on
where I was going. And then that
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job led to me getting a prop
job on X Files as a prop assistant.
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And one of the things that helped
me was talking to that weapons handler
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on that Indie short, because once
I was in the props department on X
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Files, that's they handle all the
weapons, and so I knew the proper
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etiquette and protocol and all the things
for the guns on set and how meticulous
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you need to be in that position. But every third day I would ask
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the camera team if I could have
lunch with them, So like twice a
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week I would eat with the camera
team and ask them questions. And I
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never asked them for a job per
se. I felt like that would be
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kind of invasive, so I just
you know, asked them a bunch of
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questions and then I would watch what
they did, and so it was like,
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Okay, this is good. And
then that job led to a job
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where I was again an intern,
but it was video assist, and it
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was this weird video assist thing.
Basically, we had a TV with a
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VCR and I would record every take
from a tap from the camera and then
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producers or somebody would see it.
I don't know, I'd actually have no
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idea or that went. But on
that one I was one step closer to
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the camera department, so I was
interacting with them every day, and the
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second assistant was doing camera reports,
so I asked her for a bunch of
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blank ones and I would work with
a script supervisor who was getting information from
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the second AC. And I started
doing all these camera reports to match what
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I was seeing on the video tap
on all the things that I was recording,
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And so I started to learn about
lenses and filters and proper coverage because
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I never went to film school like
I just for me, it was the
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school of trial and error. I
knew somehow in my heart cameras what I
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wanted to do, but I didn't
know all the technical things behind camera operating,
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you know, I just knew that
when I put a camera on my
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shoulder and I'm in the ips,
I'm lost. It's like I'm transported somewhere
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else. It's even even bigger experience
from me then sitting in a movie theater
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and watching something on the big screen, which is amazing because you're lost in
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it. And then but to have
a feeling that's even more intense being lost
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in an eyepiece that's only like one
inch by one inch. Its kind of
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interesting. But so I learned a
lot on that series, and then that
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got me a job as a second
assistant again for free. And I was
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working at Kinko's this whole time and
doing side hustles at a space and an
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antique well anything to pay the rent, but working on a lot of these
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indie projects for free because in Seattle
in the winter, days are short weather,
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it's terrible, nothing shooting, So
all the creatives that have worked during
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the year, they do their projects
in the wintertime, and since nobody's working,
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everybody cruise everybody else's projects. So
it's really kind of nice. And
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so I have been actually, like
you know, worked my way up to
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focus polar and then real world came
to town one day and my loader was
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like, let's apply for jobs.
And I had been shooting on documentaries this
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whole time. I should probably throw
that in there. And it was all
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basically documentaries for free or for public
access or whoever would let me, you
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know, operate a camera. I
was doing that. So in real world,
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came to town. They asked for
a real and I'm like, we
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were applying to be camera assistants and
they want a reel. But they had
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seen on my resume that I had
shot some documentaries, so when they interviewed
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me, it was to be an
operator, and I was like, oh,
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I couldn't possibly be an operator,
you know. I'm I'm now in
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this narrative world a lot where if
you're an assistant, you're an assistant.
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Nobody's going to offer you a camera, and you're there's a there's an order
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to things about how you work up. But here I am being interviewed in
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this reality environment and they're like no, no, no. If you're a
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storyteller and you know how to operate
a camera and you've done ductwork, let's
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do it. And I'm like,
no, I'll assist for you. But
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on day two they're like, Hey, there's this story happening and we don't
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have anybody to cover it. Will
you pick up a camera and go cover
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it? And we have somebody else
that's good to do audio for you,
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and I'm like great. So I
go in and covered it and just kind
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of did my thing. And then
this company had dailies where the next day
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somebody would work overnight with all the
director notes and cut all the scenes that
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they thought were important. And this
was an important enough scene at me the
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dailies, so I was able to
see the next day how I covered it
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and what was good and what was
bad. And the directors, in reality
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at the time were all documentary directors, so they could all do camera and
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audio and they were amazing mentors to
have. And so they went over the
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footage with me because everybody watched the
dailies, so everybody then saw that I
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had shot a scene that made dailies
and how I shot it, and I
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did I did a good job.
So they continue to throw me into different
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scenes and guide me because we have
microwave transmitters on our cameras even back then,
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and that was so long ago,
so in the ConTroll room they can
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see what you're shooting, and it's
a it's a dialogue driven format. So
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this is where it's tricky when you
have directors. The dialogue of the people
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that I'm shooting, the cast,
that's what's driving my lens. If I'm
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listening to a director, neither of
us are listening to the cast is saying,
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and then our footage falls apart and
it's no longer dialogue driven. It's
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just me pointing a camera and creating
a nice frame and hoping that excuse me,
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hoping that I'm capturing something. So
when you're a director in that reality
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environment and quite often documentary, your
job is to remain completely silent and watch
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what I'm shooting and listen to what
I'm shooting, take notes, and then
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be the eyes in the back of
my head like I have a shot.
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I'm keeping track of the dialogue,
but I also have this running shot list
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that you need for every scene.
You need a wide you need some wide
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overs, you need some singles.
A lot of time, you always have
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the audio always, So people are
very forgiving if you're not pointing at who's
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talking, because some people are like, oh, you just point out who's
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talking, isn't that what it's about
it's like, well, actually the reactions
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are never heard, they're only scenes, so quite often the reactions are more
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important than the dialogue. So it's
I'm making all those choices as an operator
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when I'm going to show the person
talking, when I'm going to go for
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reactions, and I'm trying to keep
track of all the shots that I have
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my shot list. But the director, who's also quietly watching what I'm shooting,
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we'll start saying and people tend to
repeat things three times if they're really
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passionate about it. So on the
second pass, it's like, Okay,
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we have this, You've got good
coverage on it, give me some wides,
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give me this, give me that
you know, things that they've noticed
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I haven't been able to get.
So they're kind of the eyes in the
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back of my head. And they
may also be listening to microphones of people
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that are not in the location where
I'm shooting, like in the if it's
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a house, maybe I'm in the
living room and they're listening to people in
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another room talking about what's going on
in the living room, and I'm not
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privy to that, but the director
is, so they'll tell me, you've
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got what we need, go to
the bedroom, so my audio mixer will
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turn up the audio of what's going
on in the bedroom, or if I
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have a good audio mixer, they
will listen and they will find something and
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tune up audio of people that are
not in the room. And I look
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at them and trust my audio mixer
because they're also looking for story or elements
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that are going to tell the story. And they'll point, silently point,
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and then we go to wherever room
This like complimentary conversation is happening that kind
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of flushes out the bigger story.
So it's it's kind of this interesting,
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very quiet way of filmmaking. Were
And when I first started on Real World,
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we were not allowed to speak in
front of the cast on walkie.
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Any question the director had, they
would ask in a way that we could
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click on our walkie one click for
yes, two clicks for no, like
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did they really just say X,
Y Z, And we could say yes
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or no because sometimes the director wouldet
confused about what we were shooting, and
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there were little they call them stash
boxes with fresh batteries and fresh tapes.
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It's back when we shot on Beta
throughout the house and I would change my
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batteries in my tapes. In the
house, AC's were not allowed to come
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in, and the director would wait
until where the stash box was was clear
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and there were no casts near that
space, and then an AC would sneak
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in and take the shot tapes and
dead batteries and replace it with fresh and
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then they would leave. So it
was just me and my mixer, and
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we never spoke to each other.
We were not allowed to speak in front
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of the cast, and we just
had like little cues. Usually the mixer
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would do something with my audio to
draw my attention somewhere or to have me
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look at them, and then they
could point, and sometimes my mixer would
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just quietly say and to the mic, go to so and so. Because
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they're watching everything unfold and they're not
distracted with camera choices, they're just listening,
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and once all the mics are good
and their boom is where it needs
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to be, they start watching everybody. And you can tell when somebody's about
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to speak. Somebody may be silent
for a whole half hours, so I
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just kind of stop thinking to look
at them with my lens. But my
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audio mixer will know when people start
to fidget, they're about to talk,
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and then they will give me a
queue to pan to that person, and
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quite often then that person starts talking. So it's just this interesting, very
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silent relationship that everybody has, and
we try to be fly on the wall,
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but they're very well aware that I'm
there because I'm moving to different different
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angles and different shots, but how
close or how far I am gets me
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kind of off their radar. And
sometimes if somebody's having a very personal revealing
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moment, I won't have the camera
pointed at them. I'll come behind them,
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so I'm not even in their peripheral
vision. So they are given the
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opportunity to kind of forget that I
exist, and then they be they can
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become more vulnerable or connect more with
the person that they're talking to. And
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that is another good example of there
are reasons why you don't need to always
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be pointing at who's talking. Sometimes
psychologically people need a break and not to
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see the camera, and that gives
them a moment to breathe and then to
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share even more. And there's this
hilarious thing where it's like it's an intense
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scene and there are a few things
that you know people want to say,
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but they haven't said, and it's
like you feel like you have they start
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repeating, so You're like, I'm
going to get a wide shot. So
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I walk away to get the wide
shot. And because I have created distance
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between myself and who I'm shooting,
they are able to take a breath and
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then maybe say the thing We've been
waiting for two hours of solid shooting for
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them to finally get around to.
But they do it when I've been a
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wide shot, and you know what
that is okay because we have the audio,
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which is key. It's all audio
driven, and you know, I
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have a wide shot, and then
of course we probably have a lot of
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reaction shots from earlier that we can
put over it. But you know,
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in getting a wide shot, I
have an earpiece that's connected to the camera,
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so I hear everything the cast says, even when they whisper. And
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when I'm on a wide shot and
they say that line I've been waiting for,
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part of me is like ah,
but the other part of me is
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like, great, we finally have
it, and we have it because I
280
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gave them space. So I'll let
them like talk for maybe thirty more seconds,
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and then I'll slowly move back in
so that they are able to because
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if I run back in it kind
of ruins everything because they're like, oh,
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what I've said was important, here
they are again. So I need
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to like appear as though I'm just
getting some wide shots and it's not really
285
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that big a deal to take the
pressure off of them so that they can
286
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talk more about it. So it's
very I mean, as an operator,
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I need to be so keyed in
to the shot list that I'm shooting,
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the dialogue that's driving me, the
nonverbal of the people. Have I given
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them space the proper amount of space, and also being completely quiet. If
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I like breathe, like breathe in
deeply and out because I'm having back pain,
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they might perceive it as I'm bored
and I'm taking in a deep breath,
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and so I have to be silent, keep my energy tight. I
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wear muted colors so that I don't
like so I can blend into the background.
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Quite often I'll try and match the
environment, like in my color scheme
295
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when I get ready in the morning. So it's really all about being a
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fly on the wall and just listening
and I tell people like people that are
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just coming up, like one of
the camera operating is all about physics and
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muscle memory and having a well balanced
camera and being comfortable so that you don't
299
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:14.279
have internal dialogue about, ah,
this camera, it's too front heavier,
300
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.319
I'm getting shakier. It's this,
or it's that. It's like, you
301
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need a really well balanced camera so
you don't ever have to think about it,
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00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:25.000
and then you need to be completely
clue cued in to what's being said.
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But it took me about seven years
to create what I think is the
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00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:34.559
most powerful tool for any operator,
and that is muscle memory to be able
305
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to zoom in and out, walk
in and out, walk around people without
306
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:47.839
tripping, develop a subconscious peripherial vision, peripheral awareness, so I don't even
307
00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:52.200
have to think about what's around me. I'm subconsciously navigating furniture and potholes and
308
00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:57.680
cars and trees and whatever obstacle there
may be while I'm walking around, sometimes
309
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backpedaling, walking back with people for
miles on end. So it's this muscle
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memory where I can It took me
seven years to get to this point,
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but once the first time I did
it, it was amazing, and that
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was I was able to shoot a
complete scene and not actually remember having a
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camera in my hands. It's as
though I just witnessed it as somebody sitting
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in a room with people, and
I knew at that point that I had
315
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:32.680
achieved the muscle memory that I needed, the ability to disengage my internal dialogue
316
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and just completely key into what I'm
doing and just let everything flow. It
317
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.440
is. It's like a flow state
where you're just not aware of what's happening
318
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and you're completely in the moment.
And it takes so long to get there,
319
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but once I got there, it
was amazing. As you know,
320
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:55.079
this show is all about the formative
years as well of how we start on
321
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:57.799
our journey, and I know for
you, it all began back in Idaho.
322
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:03.079
You were born in i Hoe in
the winter, So what do you
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00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:07.279
remember of that because you've stayed on
the west side of the country, going
324
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:11.960
from Idaho to the West coast,
what do you remember of your very formative
325
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:17.039
views. It's funny, like I
was born in Idaho during a snowstorm,
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00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:22.000
Like my dad's car he was driving
broke down, but luckily my grandmother was
327
00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:25.880
behind us because we lived in a
kind of a very small town, so
328
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:30.039
we had to drive to another town
where the hospital was and so I wasn't
329
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:34.559
born in the back of a car
during a snowstorm, but that happened a
330
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:37.799
lot. Where I grew up.
People were just kind of born along the
331
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:42.799
way and in their homes. But
yeah, Idaho. It's funny. We
332
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:48.640
moved to San Francisco before I really
had many memories of Idaho. So my
333
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:56.279
earliest memories are my parents being hippies
in San Francisco and just the interesting cast
334
00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:02.880
of characters that my found. My
dad was British and he traveled the world
335
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.279
a lot, and then my grandmother
married an American serviceman and that's how they
336
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.720
came to America. So he was
along his journey, he had met a
337
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:18.400
lot of different people and was very
no judgment. When I was probably three
338
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:23.359
four five, there was a black
transvestite that lived upstairs from us named Charles,
339
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.119
and I love Charles. Charles was
great, and nobody really ever told
340
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:33.720
me that there was any reason to
not like Charles. So I didn't grow
341
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:42.680
up with excuse me, I didn't
grow up with a lot of prejudice and
342
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:48.119
preconceived notions on people, because you
know, San Francisco at that time was
343
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:53.440
just this huge group of all sorts
of creative artists and different people. And
344
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:59.000
then when it was time for me
to go to school, they decided to
345
00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:03.000
move to Idaho, which is where
they both had family, and they felt
346
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:07.279
like it would be good to raise
me near family and aunts and uncles,
347
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:12.319
and so we moved to a very
small town of two hundred and this is
348
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:18.599
kind of where my memories of Idaho
begin because we were hippies from San Francisco,
349
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:25.160
and my dad was Episcopalian and my
mother's family were Lutheran, and we
350
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:33.160
moved into a Mormon community and so
they had they had a city council meeting
351
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:38.319
and the topic of conversation was how
to get us out of town. But
352
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:42.720
we owned the house that we lived
in in the land that we the house
353
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:48.359
was on. So in America,
if you own your home and your land,
354
00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:53.119
nobody can do anything. And my
dad was very rebellious, so he
355
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:57.000
decided we are going to stay.
So I kind of grew up with this
356
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:06.279
kind of interesting life of in first
grade, in kindergarten, the photos of
357
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:08.680
me, my class photos, like
I have like braids, and I'm in
358
00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:15.200
this little outfit and I'm this cute
little girl. But in grade school is
359
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:19.319
were kind of the trouble for me
started, like I started getting beat up
360
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:22.680
by the boys, and a lot
of it had to do like my dad
361
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:30.799
was also dealing drugs and but you
know, denying that, and but we're
362
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.119
hippies from San Francisco and we're this
and we're that, and they don't really
363
00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:36.880
want us in the community. So
I had to learn how to fight.
364
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.720
And luckily there was this guy in
town, Ricky Owens, who taught me
365
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:48.880
how to fight. So by the
time you see my fourth grade picture,
366
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.000
my name is now George. I've
cut off all my hair. I'm living
367
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.200
my life as a boy. And
my mom is totally okay with this because
368
00:29:56.200 --> 00:30:02.200
she's very like she's on the most
non judgmental people I've ever met, and
369
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.359
her thing is, however, you're
comfortable, whatever makes you happy, I
370
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:11.279
will support that. So she was
fine with that, and I think she
371
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.920
realized that this was kind of a
mechanism for me to protect myself, was
372
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:22.319
to create this kind of you know, different personality, and so like I
373
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:27.240
fought everybody, and at one point
I fought Ricky Owens and was stronger than
374
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:33.039
him, and it shocked both of
us. But that particular time in my
375
00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:41.240
life that that grade school era is
like the biggest memories for me because it
376
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.079
was like, it wasn't like,
yeah, well you know, some of
377
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.000
the girls were fighting with me and
beating me up, but it was the
378
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.599
boys. And I look back on
that now and I see like a lot
379
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.920
of male aggression to like gay boys
and different things, and I'm like,
380
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:00.160
wow, Like I became so competitive
with the boys. I think it's because,
381
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:04.200
like I really had a problem with
that somebody who was so macho,
382
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.279
and to prove how manly they were, they would beat up a girl or
383
00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.839
they would beat up a boy that
they thought was gay, and I'm like
384
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:18.079
that, that's not manhood, that's
ridiculous. Did you get in trouble for
385
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.519
the fighting in school? Well,
it's interesting. Usually the boys were a
386
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:27.240
little if I got the best of
them, didn't really want everybody to know
387
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:32.319
about it. But there were a
few times where I did get in trouble,
388
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:37.160
but they were strange. Like there
was a time on the playground we
389
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.799
had a snowball fight and I had
the snowballs a throw it at this guy
390
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:45.039
and he was like do it,
and I'm going to tell on you,
391
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:49.160
and I was just like, ah, so I just threw it to the
392
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:55.519
ground right by my foot, and
he was like, she threw that snowball
393
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:56.839
at me, and I'm like,
no, I didn't. You said you
394
00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:00.920
were going to tell me. So
it became this big thing. Told the
395
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:07.640
teacher. I through the snowball at
him and then and getting paddled and swatted
396
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:12.759
at school was like completely acceptable where
I went to school and at the time
397
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:15.720
I went to school, But how
they would do it with girls is you
398
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:22.440
would turn your back to the class, bend over, grab your ankles,
399
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.680
and then they would paddle you.
And it was just like I was so
400
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:31.920
humiliated and so angry. Which school
was this, Oh, it was the
401
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:35.599
elementary school in the town I grew
up, and it was like a two
402
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:40.319
room schoolhouse because it was such a
small town and it was just it was
403
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:45.519
a different time. It was a
it was a different time. I'll tell
404
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:50.559
you what was the name of the
town. The name of the town was
405
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:55.240
Albion, And it has an interesting
backstory in itself, like in the eighteen
406
00:32:55.319 --> 00:33:00.240
hundreds, there's an abandoned college campus
there by the time I got there,
407
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:05.519
but in the eighteen hundreds it was
this big, multi billing college campus with
408
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:09.599
like a gymnasium with an indoor running
track, a huge theater with a balcony,
409
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:16.160
boys dorm, girls dorm, teacher
storm chemistry building, just huge and
410
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:22.039
it was just left abandoned. But
the Oregon Trail used to come through there,
411
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:25.200
the Pony Express came through there.
It was like the hub of activity
412
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:30.440
in the eighteen hundreds, and then
it kind of slowly dwindled and people all
413
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:37.319
moved away. And then when my
family moved there to this quiet mountain town
414
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:42.279
of two hundred that they thought would
be so serene and adyllic, and for
415
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:46.720
me it turned out to be like
very kind of violent and anger causing.
416
00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:52.839
Yeah. So yeah, it was
a small town that had, I don't
417
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:54.680
know, an interesting history to get
where it was at, and a lot
418
00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:00.480
of you know, it was farmers
and people who grew up and you know,
419
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:07.480
living hard lives and the winter's there
hard, and it was not a
420
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:13.360
rich community. We were on the
poor side, but we never really realized
421
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:19.480
that we were poor. And I
never really felt like we were poor because
422
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:24.360
nobody really had money but everybody.
I mean, it was just these incidences
423
00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:28.239
with like at school, and I
know a lot of that comes from the
424
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.239
parents but the parents were a pretty
nice to me. Oh yeah, getting
425
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:36.679
in trouble so that one time with
Travis, and then sometimes people would call
426
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:42.719
my mom and be like your daughter, Gretchen and blah blah blah. My
427
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:46.320
mom's answer was always I'm sure they
deserved it, and she would hang up
428
00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:51.880
on them like she was. She's
always been my supporter. She has always
429
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.679
been in my corner. You were
the only child, right See, it's
430
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:59.239
not like you had an older brother
to stand up for you, but you
431
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.559
didn't need it. By the sounds
of things, you were totally I have
432
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:08.159
this image of you in very rural, small town Idahope riding your pony to
433
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:14.280
school. Did you ride? I
did not. That's kind of interesting because
434
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:20.920
it was a farm community and my
grandparents owned a farm kind of outside of
435
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:25.440
town and my uncle is still there. But my dad had absolutely no interest
436
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:30.840
in farming, no interest in pretty
much manual labor of any kind. I
437
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:35.519
don't think I ever saw him in
shorts. He was always like, you
438
00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:39.480
know, he was not interested in
farming, and I, you know,
439
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:44.000
I will say we did have a
little Shetland pony for me for a small
440
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.440
time, but it would always bug
me off. And rub me into the
441
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:51.679
fence. And I never really took
to that pony. But my grandfather had
442
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:55.199
a horse called Daisy, and he
would have me out and we'd ride Daisy
443
00:35:55.239 --> 00:36:00.239
around. And then Daisy had a
fold that he called Flowers. It was
444
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:05.440
Daisy and Flower, and so I'd
ride Flower and he'd ride Daisy and we'd,
445
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:08.360
you know, ride around the farm. And I love that Daisy and
446
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:13.880
Flower. I could see you being
a stunt artist as well, Gretchen,
447
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.760
fighting background, rough and tumble.
You could jump on a pony, You
448
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.880
could punish up, Yeah, if
you needed to. I needed to.
449
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.639
Did that ever appeal? No?
It didn't. You know. It's funny
450
00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:30.199
when I went to junior high school
and I was with new people that didn't
451
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:35.159
really know who I was. At
the end of that first year of junior
452
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.320
high school, I was wearing dresses, my hair had grown out again.
453
00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:42.320
I was going by Gretchen and like, there was no need for George anymore.
454
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:49.519
And the last fight I ever had
was in sixth grade, and I
455
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:54.199
made a conscious choice at that time
that I wasn't going to fight anymore because
456
00:36:54.199 --> 00:37:00.960
it at that point it wasn't wasn't
worth it. And when I hit sixth
457
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:02.960
grade, then the fights were with
girls, and I didn't want to fight
458
00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:07.320
girls. I didn't have any problems
with the girls. I just thought it
459
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:10.239
was silly when they would fight.
You wanted to play with the girls,
460
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:19.199
yeah, or hang out with them, or I still had like pardon me.
461
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:24.440
I still had a lot of friends
that were boys. I think that
462
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:28.760
time in grade school where I like
hung out with the boys and we were
463
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.880
kind of in a little gang and
we would fight and be tougher. That
464
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:37.719
was like the people that kind of
protected me. When I didn't have need
465
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:43.159
for that anymore. I still had
boys that were friends and girls also.
466
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:49.760
I don't know, it's funny I
look back on my even through high school,
467
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.800
I don't I have one friend from
childhood that I keep in contact with,
468
00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:59.280
and that's it. And I think
I just kind of had such a
469
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:06.559
bad exp experience during that time in
my life that I didn't connect with anybody
470
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:08.440
because I was worried that they would
turn on me, that they would hurt
471
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:13.679
me, that somehow if I confided
something in them, they would tell everybody.
472
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:17.000
So I don't really have many friends
from that time period, which was
473
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:22.440
a little unfortunate. When you were
in school, What were your subjects of
474
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:28.039
choice, what was distracting you.
Did you have any favorite teachers that were
475
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:31.800
supporting you as well and guiding you. It's kind of interesting, and now
476
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.840
that you've asked me this question,
maybe this is why I did this All
477
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:38.880
through high school. I went to
summer school. I was a good student.
478
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:45.159
I got a's and b's, you
know, occasional c'es. But I
479
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:49.199
was always driven to go to summer
school and just learn year round. And
480
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:52.159
by the time it was my senior
year in high school, I didn't technically
481
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:58.199
need to go because I had all
my credits, but I went anyway because
482
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:02.239
I just I enjoyed learning. But
it was also maybe a way for me
483
00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:09.400
to kind of not have to socialize
that much. I could do it under
484
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:15.000
the guise of going to class and
learning things. But one thing I really
485
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:19.639
did appreciate was English. And I
was a bit dyslexic as a child.
486
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:24.599
So what I discovered my sophomore year
of high school were books on tape.
487
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:29.800
I mean, they're like in the
cloud now, but at the time you
488
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:32.719
would get the cassette tapes of whatever
it was. And I had an English
489
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:37.239
teacher. My English teachers were always
the hardest one that you could possibly have.
490
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:42.920
But I knew that that was a
good thing because I was always raised
491
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.760
that you know, knowing how to
write and read will get you further in
492
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:52.960
life than pretty much anything else.
Were you into sports? I loved sports,
493
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:57.679
but because I was not I don't
know if it's because I wasn't Mormon,
494
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:00.480
but I was on the bench all
the time. I was on the
495
00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:08.199
bench all the time. And when
was it my junior year I changed schools
496
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:13.000
and then I was intimidated because I
went to a much bigger school. Like
497
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.280
in junior high we were all in
these tiny towns and strewn out around the
498
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:22.639
mountains near Albion, and they were
all like, I mean, there was
499
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:24.519
a town that had like fifty people
in it. It was a one room
500
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:30.039
schoolhouse. It was really small,
but they would bust all these kids to
501
00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:37.039
one central high school or junior high
in high school. But when I was
502
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:45.719
the very beginning of my sophomore year, now my junior year, I went
503
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:50.360
to a bigger school and was so
intimidated by everything that I quit sports and
504
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:53.280
band because I don't know, I
just felt like I wasn't good enough to
505
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:59.320
be in this big school's band or
their sports, And looking back, I
506
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:06.719
wish I would have faced my fears
and done more sports. But and the
507
00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:10.039
sports that I was really good at
were tennis because I could practice that by
508
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:20.519
myself against a wall, and javelin, shot put things where they were individual
509
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:25.400
sports, the team sports, and
I enjoyed them, but it was more
510
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:30.880
of the individual sports that I really
liked. So what point in high school
511
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:35.440
then did you consider what you would
do next? Where would you go with
512
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:39.639
your career? And were you into
film and TV? And you know,
513
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:45.679
were you that little girl that was
you know, studying it through childhood?
514
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:49.960
No, I wasn't. And you
know, because we didn't have a lot
515
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.199
of money, we might have a
role of film in the camera for two
516
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:57.559
years and get it developed. This
is a big surprise about So there's not
517
00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:02.280
a lot of photos from my childhood. And I started working when I was
518
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:06.519
twelve. That's when I got my
first job. It was in a department
519
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:08.480
store. It was in the back
and packing clothes, putting them hangers,
520
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:13.559
putting price tags on them, and
then I had a series of jobs.
521
00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:19.119
In my junior year, I was
the night cash clerk at this department store
522
00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:23.320
called Kmart and I would reconcile all
of the cash strawers for the day and
523
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:28.280
do the deposit, you know,
because I also loved maths, I was
524
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.000
good in accounting and bookkeeping and whatnot. So it was like a job with
525
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:36.239
a lot of responsibility. And so
when I was a senior in high school,
526
00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:38.480
I had a resume with all these
jobs and people to call. So
527
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:44.199
I got a job in a law
firm. And my grandmother, her thing
528
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:50.519
was she was British, and she
was very aware of class systems and where
529
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:54.480
you are in class, and she
grew up lower class and always aspire to
530
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:59.039
be higher class. And by coming
to America and having a British accent,
531
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:05.159
I was just thought of as high
class just because of her accent. So
532
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:09.000
she was living, you know,
on the West Side with the doctors and
533
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:14.960
the lawyers and all this stuff.
So her thing was you need to marry
534
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:20.159
an attorney or be an attorney.
She was very pro law. So I
535
00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:23.360
was able to get a job my
senior year in high school with the Idaho
536
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:29.000
Attorney General's Law Office, which was
a very prestigious law firm. And I
537
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:34.840
started out as doing errands and filing
papers and things and I just kind of
538
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:38.400
stayed with that law firm as it
split off and did other things. I
539
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:45.360
would go with whatever attorneys were going
to the better law firm and decided I
540
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:47.960
was going to be a pairalegal because
I didn't need a big legal education for
541
00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:51.480
that. So I was paying for
my own college and could not afford law
542
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:54.840
school. And you know, it
was nice, like I'm in high school
543
00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:00.480
and I have a flour oh one
K and paid vacation, it paid holiday
544
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:04.719
and all this really great stuff,
and like, I have a pretty good
545
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:07.760
chance at a very nice future.
So yeah, I was just I was
546
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:12.320
going to do law. And I
love debating and I like fighting. I
547
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:15.960
think that came from my childhood of
physical fighting, but I turned it into
548
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:19.199
like being able to verbally spar with
people and make a good point. And
549
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:22.559
I did well in debate in high
school, you know. And I'm in
550
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:27.880
the political science department and I have
my friends. And then one day there's
551
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:32.920
this make my Vogue video contest that
Madonna has on MTV, and I was
552
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:36.800
We're all huge Madonna fans. It's
like, oh, let's make this video.
553
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:37.800
Let's make this video. This will
be great. So we went to
554
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:45.719
Sears and bought a little video camera
and came up with this video that we
555
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:49.039
shot, and then we returned the
camera because Sears had a really great return
556
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:52.360
policy or college seams, we had
buddy, so we turned the camera back
557
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:57.599
in and then found somebody in the
communication department to edit it together. First,
558
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.079
we didn't know what voguing was,
like, we're doing news. It's
559
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:10.400
it's hilarious to watch like what we
did. But I loved that once just
560
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:14.760
get it. Putting the camera on
my shoulder and looking through that viewfinder.
561
00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:21.400
I was transfixed. I was transported. I was changed in some way.
562
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:25.199
And so one of the girls that
did the video with me, she's like,
563
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:29.000
oh, let's take intro to video
for audits so we don't have to
564
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:32.480
read anything or do papers or take
tests. It won't affect our GPA.
565
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:36.280
And I'm like, great, people, we're juniors. We don't have a
566
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:40.840
lot of time for fun. And
the teacher I had, he was brand
567
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:47.760
new, he had graduated with his
PhD studying under George Kuker, and he
568
00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:55.000
was showing us all of these crazy
films and experimental stuff and was just encouraging
569
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:59.599
us to do whatever we wanted.
So I was, you know, just
570
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.199
playing, having fun and doing what
I wanted because it didn't matter, because
571
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:07.639
it wasn't for credit. I could
do where my interest was taking me.
572
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:10.920
And that particular assignment my last,
and I was, you know, I'm
573
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:16.000
an Idaho, very conservative. I'm
totally in the closet. You know.
574
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:21.639
At that point I have come out
to no one. This was Boise State
575
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:25.679
University we're talking about. Now.
This is Boise State University where you chose
576
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:31.039
communications and you got your bachelor's there
I did. I started in a lot
577
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:36.519
of stupid things, but finished in
communication. But at this point I'm like
578
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:43.480
kind of thinging pre laws, so
I'm political science. And the last project
579
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:50.400
I did in that class was an
autobiographical documentary short about growing up gay.
580
00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:58.400
And when I kind of started putting
the pieces together and how I felt,
581
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:04.800
it's just like very revealing and it
was like very kind of stylized in a
582
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:09.599
lot of stuff, and nobody knew. Nobody knew about me at this point.
583
00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:14.599
So it's the last day and because
it's audit, I kind of went
584
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:19.800
into this weird trance flow state and
did this project and maybe three days start
585
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:22.039
to finish, starting shooting to finish, editing, and there's a lot of
586
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:25.920
complicated stuff. I still look back
and I'm very surprised that I was able
587
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:30.880
to do it. But it was
a coming out piece. But I had
588
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:35.039
this like sense of security because you
know, it's not for credit. I
589
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:38.599
don't have to show it. But
something compelled me to make it. And
590
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:44.000
then that final day in class,
when we're all showing our final projects,
591
00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:49.599
I slit it up the table and
to this point, i'd made comedies and
592
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:57.079
this piece is actually very it's dark
and kind of depressing, and so he
593
00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:00.639
pops it in and it starts out
and it's kind of a abstract obscure and
594
00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:07.079
people start laughing and I'm like having
a heart attack. I'm full on panic
595
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:14.920
attack. And then they stop laughing, and then the five minute video plays
596
00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:21.400
out and then the lights come up
and it is dead silent. Nobody says
597
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:25.079
anything, and every other project people
were like, oh, I like this,
598
00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:29.960
how'd you do that? It was
like the lively conversation mine ends,
599
00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:32.039
and of course I save it for
the last because I don't actually think I'm
600
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:36.360
going to put it up there.
But He's like, Gretchen, we haven't
601
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:42.360
seen yours, and I just did
it. So it's dead silent. Everybody's
602
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:45.360
staring at me, and I'm looking
all of a sudden, thirty people know
603
00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:55.079
about everything I think about being gay, and I'm just like horrified. But
604
00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:59.440
that was a very brave thing to
do, especially back then. I mean,
605
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:04.360
oh yeah, I still can't believe
I did it. But the teacher,
606
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:07.119
he said, the most amazing thing. He's like that was he gave
607
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:12.119
me a lot of very nice compliments, and he said that he really looked
608
00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.519
forward to what I would do in
the future. And then when the class
609
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.480
was over, he had me stay
after and I'm like, oh, it's
610
00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:22.480
going to be something about coming out, and I don't know. I just
611
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.159
was still in this mind of like, oh no, no, I'm opened
612
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:30.000
myself for attack. And he said
that was a really good piece, and
613
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:34.599
I really want to talk to you
about what class you should take next.
614
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:39.599
And I'm like, I can't do
video for credit. I'm busy with this
615
00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:43.079
other major. And he said,
let me tell you what. I'll make
616
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:46.119
a deal with you. I'll give
you six credits. Just make something.
617
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:55.400
Don't ever come to class. Whatever
gear there is, like, reserve it
618
00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:00.280
ahead of time. But if like, if you think because the gear checkout
619
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:02.639
was only open for a couple hours, a couple hours in the morning,
620
00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:06.079
a couple hours in the afternoon.
He was like, I'm going to give
621
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:10.880
you a set of keys to the
gear room, and if you get inspired
622
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:16.239
and you need to just go there
and nobody's checked out the gear just let
623
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:20.760
yourself in, take the gear,
go shoot it, do whatever, do
624
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:25.159
whatever. So I'm like, okay, great. And I didn't realize at
625
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:30.000
the time this huge gift that he
was giving me. I just because I
626
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.480
didn't see myself as a filmmaker.
I saw myself as a future paralegal.
627
00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:38.360
I had a great life at that
time. I was making He clearly did,
628
00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:43.920
no, we need to name drop
here, Greg. Oh, Pete
629
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:50.519
Lutzy, Sorry, Pete Lutzy.
And he was so supportive. Does he
630
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:54.760
know the past you took and that
you became a cinematographer, Yeah, he
631
00:50:54.800 --> 00:51:00.599
does, and he it was really
interesting like I did. And the project
632
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:05.039
I ended up doing was a documentary
feature film. Like the first thing I
633
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:13.679
did for him. I had no
idea. I was like, Oh,
634
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:16.480
this thing interests me. I'm going
to go start interviewing people. I'm going
635
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:22.039
to start filming this. And I
was so excited and people would work with
636
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:25.440
me, and it was like I
got everybody, like everybody I knew that
637
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:30.039
was willing to operate a camera.
I had to operate on a camera at
638
00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:35.119
some point in this feature. But
it won awards and it went on small
639
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:39.880
festivals and it was it. But
it changed my life. And so within
640
00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:45.519
a year from that Madonna video,
I had quit the law firm and I
641
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:51.440
had gotten a job like selling ads
at the university newspaper and working at the
642
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:57.960
local news station as studio camera operator. And you know, whoever would pay
643
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:02.400
me a couple bucks to like run
a camera or asked me to do something
644
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:07.760
for them, And I had to
go a couple extra years because I had
645
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:15.320
taken no credits in that department,
because I always looked at the communication department
646
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:20.719
as all those crazy people that did
group projects like talk to each other too
647
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:23.719
much. So I was like,
all of a sudden, I had to
648
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:30.280
be in college a lot longer.
But I knew, I knew you could
649
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:34.599
smell it by then. Yeah,
but I didn't know anything. But I
650
00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:37.559
still couldn't afford film school and all
this stuff, and I was still kind
651
00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:43.159
of self taught, and like how
I studied film I guess was the History
652
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:51.840
department had these this teacher Phoebe Lundy, who was amazing, very liberal activist,
653
00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:53.559
her take on you know, these
movies that you would watch. So
654
00:52:53.599 --> 00:53:01.199
I did two semesters of Russian film
and then Propaganda film and women in Film.
655
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:05.800
Like that's where I did my film
study was in the history department.
656
00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:10.840
But it was all from a history
angle, not a execution a technical angle.
657
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:15.920
But yeah, and then you know, rented all the videos I could
658
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:19.000
at the video store. But you
know, I'm in Idaho. There's no
659
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.119
cinematography magazines at the news stand.
I don't know what to read, and
660
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:27.360
the Internet still really isn't there,
and so I'm just kind of doing my
661
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:31.239
thing. And yeah, and then
I moved to Seattle, Washington because that's
662
00:53:31.639 --> 00:53:36.639
how that's where I'm going to make
it big in a film world. And
663
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:43.840
I get there the year after everything
goes to Canada. So I'm competing in
664
00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:47.679
Seattle with people from Northern Exposure and
Twin Peaks that are those had just stopped
665
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:52.559
shooting the year before. So nobody's
going to hire me. I have no
666
00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:57.719
film degree, I have no real
experience outside of working with like public access
667
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:02.639
and making my own projects and whoever
will fire me. So then you decided
668
00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:06.679
to go back to school. Then
you went to the Evergreen State College there
669
00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:09.920
and you did Liberal arts. So
what prompted you to do that then,
670
00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:15.599
because you'd already had a taste for
the film business. Well, what prompted
671
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:17.880
me to do that is I had
heard they had a pretty good film program
672
00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:25.440
and it was affordable because I was
still paying for my own college. And
673
00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:30.199
I felt like Seattle was a film
community because of Twin Peaks in northern exposure
674
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:35.480
where I could go and I could
work. And I was very intimidated by
675
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:39.639
California and New York, so I
never really saw myself living and working in
676
00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:44.639
either of those places. So I
went to the Evergreen State College and my
677
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:50.719
experience was like not what I thought
it was going to be. It was
678
00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:53.000
kind of hard program to get in, like they had I think one hundred
679
00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:58.519
two hundred people applied, they chose
twenty four. I had to write what
680
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:02.400
my senior project was going to be
before they accepted me, so I needed
681
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:07.079
to know what I was going to
do for my last project before they before
682
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:13.199
class even started. And it was
interesting. It was kind of hands off.
683
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:17.199
We didn't have tests, we didn't
have to read books. It was
684
00:55:17.239 --> 00:55:22.440
though I was an intro to video
for audit all over again. And we
685
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:30.519
did four major project projects and the
professor really only commented on two of mine,
686
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:34.199
and I it was, I don't
know, I was. I was
687
00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:43.719
really frustrated by the whole experience and
my final projects. Uh, it was.
688
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:45.840
It was a good one. It
was on. I worked on film
689
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:49.440
to kind of figure out all that
stuff in the beginning, because I thought
690
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:53.360
everything documentaries and whatever shot on film. And it wasn't until the end when
691
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:57.920
they had professionals come in for Q
and a day at the like the last
692
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:01.280
week of school, and I asked
documentary person like, what cameras do you
693
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:05.000
shoot on? And he was like
betacam? And I'm like, what's a
694
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:08.599
betacam? And I'm like, don't
you shoot on sixteen millimeter? And he's
695
00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:13.159
like, no, we just shoot
on video cameras. And I'm like,
696
00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:17.199
no, I've done this whole year
to like figure out film. You're telling
697
00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:22.800
me I'm going to shoot on videos. This is terrible. I can identify
698
00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:27.079
with that because that's what I was
hearing. You would think, yeah,
699
00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:30.159
it's going to be sixty mili and
oh no, just betacam not like a
700
00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:35.480
bit of a comdown. It did. But looking back, it did teach
701
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:39.039
me shooting with intention, because when
you're shooting on film, you don't hit
702
00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:45.920
start until everything's good, especially like
as a student paying for everything, Like
703
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:50.360
I was very careful like what I
actually rolled film on and what I didn't.
704
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:53.400
But my final project was on video
because it was this. It was
705
00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:58.880
an pet over population video. It
was about microchipping, which was new,
706
00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:02.079
and it started near there and just
all these things. And American Humane was
707
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:07.280
interested in distributing it, as was
Pause and PETA and a lot of other
708
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:15.840
places were interested in taking my final
product and distributing it. And somebody decided
709
00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:22.639
in the department that student films weren't
for distribution, even though the year before
710
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:27.239
the film students actually did film stuff, their stuff was distributed. For some
711
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:30.159
reason, they decided they didn't want
me to do to move forward on this
712
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:35.920
project. And I was so upset
because it was like I wrote the treatment
713
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:38.880
for this to get into this class
and now you're telling me no, I'm
714
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:44.880
so disappointed. So what I did
was my final project was a and this
715
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:49.360
is like this is probably I no, not my last factor rebellion, but
716
00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:52.679
I'm kind of rebellious by nature.
I think it's from my back my grade
717
00:57:52.800 --> 00:58:00.800
school experiences. I did a sixteen
millimeter twenty minute projects on how frustrating it
718
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:06.039
was to go to school there and
how I had left with nothing. And
719
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:13.840
there was a day where all the
parents came and they watched everybody's final videos
720
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:16.559
and films, and that was the
film that they one of the films that
721
00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:21.119
they watched, and the professor was
so angry with me, but I was
722
00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:24.559
very angry with her in the department
that they would not let me finish this
723
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:29.400
project that I'd wanted to do.
I don't even know why I started telling
724
00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:35.440
this story. Your mother did she
come to that showing them, because I
725
00:58:35.480 --> 00:58:38.400
know she she followed you, didn't
she when you when you were a teenager
726
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:44.039
she moved out of Idaho, Yeah, she did, so she to support
727
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:49.039
you through this period of your life. She was not in town, but
728
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:52.400
she was still supportive. I think
she was maybe living in Hawaii at that
729
00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:58.159
point. She worked in botanical gardens
and she worked at Longwood Garden in Pennsylvania,
730
00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:01.599
and I think at that point she
was in the Pacific tropical botanical garden
731
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:07.000
on Kawai, and so she was
supportive from a distance. I mean,
732
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:10.519
her thing was probably well, I'm
sure when I told her, she's probably
733
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:14.800
like, they deserved it, the
same thing she told everybody when I was
734
00:59:14.840 --> 00:59:19.880
a kid, they deserved it.
But I'm you know, so when I
735
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:23.079
was younger, I had a lot
of anger, and I think I had
736
00:59:23.079 --> 00:59:29.840
a lot of issues with like rebellion
and getting back at people. And I
737
00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:36.480
will prove you wrong. I will. I will prove always having to prove
738
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:40.320
myself. But I think in my
twenties, maybe thirties, so it was
739
00:59:40.360 --> 00:59:45.360
in my thirties I started really seeing
that I had anger issues and that I
740
00:59:45.440 --> 00:59:52.559
needed to redirect that and change that
energy into something besides anger. And I
741
00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:58.280
was very sarcastic, and then I
realized that sarcasm is negativity. So I've
742
00:59:58.360 --> 01:00:04.760
kind of spent like my early to
mid thirties until now, getting rid of
743
01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:07.679
all the anger, getting rid of
all the sarcasm, getting rid of than
744
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:12.599
negativity. And I think I'm a
much easier, going, more accepting person
745
01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:19.559
now. I don't hold big grudges
anymore. I don't I'm not going to
746
01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:23.079
get somebody even if it takes two
years down the line. You won't punch
747
01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:28.880
anybody now, No, No,
Like I went from physical fighting, I
748
01:00:28.920 --> 01:00:36.880
gave that up to verbal and mental
fighting. And then it just I felt
749
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:39.079
like it wasn't a good look and
it wasn't serving me well and telling this
750
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:43.400
story about Evergreen and this rebellious thing
I did. At the end, I'm
751
01:00:43.400 --> 01:00:47.280
like, wow, that's not really
a very good look for me professionally.
752
01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:51.679
But that was then. I was
in my twenties and this is now,
753
01:00:51.719 --> 01:00:55.719
and I think we all progress and
change through life with experiences, and so
754
01:00:55.920 --> 01:01:00.719
I've definitely changed. There are things
that you put on your portfolio then and
755
01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:05.760
your reels, but they wouldn't be
on there now exactly. Yeah, that's
756
01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:12.239
a good analogy. Yeah, And
so where was the breakthrough then getting into
757
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:21.400
the industry once you graduated. Well, once I graduated, I couldn't get
758
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:24.760
a job. So I worked at
Kinko's on Capitol Hill and Seattle, which
759
01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:28.960
was great. It was all the
grunge artists came through. Comic books are
760
01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:31.360
big at the time. All these
comic book guys came through. It was
761
01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:38.079
like the place, but I was
not able to really get any jobs there.
762
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:42.199
I was applying in news, but
they weren't hiring women in news because
763
01:01:42.199 --> 01:01:46.119
I had that newsroom experience to Boise, Idaho, but I found that I
764
01:01:46.119 --> 01:01:51.199
could get work. It was local
origin, which is similar to public access,
765
01:01:51.239 --> 01:01:54.280
but they have bigger budgets. So
I was doing documentaries with them,
766
01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:57.920
not as a director of photography,
but as an operator, and we were
767
01:01:57.960 --> 01:02:02.719
doing like Homeless Youth and early children's
television. A lot of it was done
768
01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:07.280
in Seattle, and so documentary on
that. So I was working a lot
769
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:12.480
with different documentary people working on their
documentaries. Where's the friend that gave you
770
01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:15.320
the lead? The friend that gave
me the lead? Her name is Wendy
771
01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:21.199
Joe Carlton, and later on in
life, I ended up dping her first
772
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:24.280
two feature films, which was a
great experience and very interesting for me.
773
01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:30.760
But yeah, I met Wendy Joe
in Olympia, Washington, and she that
774
01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:35.440
documentary feature film that I had made, I submitted in a film festival and
775
01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:38.079
she was on the programming committee and
she programmed it. And that's how I
776
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:42.800
met her, and we've stayed friends. We're friends to this day. But
777
01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:46.960
she got me that first job in
the wardrobe department and so, and then
778
01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:51.599
I just kind of spun that as
I went along to like working with other
779
01:02:51.639 --> 01:02:53.920
people, and she also helped me
get the job in the prop department on
780
01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:59.320
X Files. So when you were
growing up, though, I know you
781
01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:05.719
said you came from poorer background and
really very rural, isolated, But were
782
01:03:05.719 --> 01:03:08.119
you going to the movies and were
you seeing things on the screen? Was
783
01:03:08.199 --> 01:03:13.880
anything triggering you then? Or really
was it later when you as you just
784
01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:17.320
explain when you got to college.
It was later where I grew up.
785
01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:21.519
To get to the movie theater,
it was a good half hour forty five
786
01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:27.519
minute drive, and they were kind
of selective on the movies they played.
787
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:30.519
It was there were only two places
to see movies, one screen of place,
788
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:35.400
and it was a lot of it, like very rarely were there R
789
01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:40.280
rated movies. And so really the
movies I watched were my mom and I
790
01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:44.800
would be at home on weekends and
they would have those like you know,
791
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:50.480
the film festivals at night. So
it was like Shirley Temple and oh,
792
01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:54.519
Betty Davis, Doris Day, like
all those old names, you know,
793
01:03:54.679 --> 01:04:00.000
black and white movies. That's that's
you know, where I love of movies
794
01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:09.159
was kind of started. Was all
of the big epic Hollywood movies from the
795
01:04:09.559 --> 01:04:14.079
what would that be thirties, forties, fifties. Yeah, now, I
796
01:04:14.119 --> 01:04:18.760
know one of your other passions is
Vespa scooters and cars. You're into two
797
01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:24.199
wheels and four. Tell us about
your hobby and how that came about collecting
798
01:04:24.280 --> 01:04:30.639
Vespa scooters. Well, in high
school, I bought a Honda Arrow eighty
799
01:04:30.760 --> 01:04:35.280
when they first came out, and
I love that scooter so much, and
800
01:04:35.320 --> 01:04:39.280
there were these I would go to
this kind of punk rock club with my
801
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:44.639
friends and dance, and there were
all these guys there with Vespas, and
802
01:04:44.679 --> 01:04:48.480
I just thought they were so cool, and so eventually I bought a Vespa.
803
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:54.119
But the thing about this Vespas that
it didn't run. It took me
804
01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:58.079
three years to finally get somebody that
could actually rebuild it so that it ran.
805
01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:05.960
When I first moved to Seattle,
because I had I didn't have any
806
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:12.280
money and I was not getting jobs. I wasn't getting any work, so
807
01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:18.480
I sold my car and this Vespa
was running at that time, So I
808
01:05:18.559 --> 01:05:23.280
just scootered around on a Vespa,
and if I really needed to get to
809
01:05:23.519 --> 01:05:27.559
a set location that required a car, I would borrow a friend's car at
810
01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:33.079
a friend that rode their bike everywhere
and didn't use their car very often,
811
01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:36.719
so I would I would borrow their
car to get to Set. But I
812
01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:43.559
drove scooters only I had. My
first scooter was a sixty one Vespa and
813
01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:47.639
then I have this sixty three Grand
Sport that it's my favorite, and the
814
01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:51.679
Grand Sport I used to ship around
with me when I actually started getting jobs,
815
01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:55.679
like wherever I worked, I would
ship it and that would be the
816
01:05:55.800 --> 01:06:00.679
vehicle that I had on location to
get around. And then eventually when I
817
01:06:00.719 --> 01:06:05.280
came to Los Angeles, which is
a very car car car town, I
818
01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:09.360
made it two and a half years
before I finally broke down and bought a
819
01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:15.840
car. And I would again if
I had locations that were I really should
820
01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:18.000
have a car to get to,
I would you rent a car for a
821
01:06:18.039 --> 01:06:21.920
month because you can get a really
good deal. And there was some place
822
01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:26.400
near my house and the cars,
I mean, they looked like cars that
823
01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:29.880
belonged to people that didn't take good
care of their cars. They were all
824
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:32.880
like smelly and beat up. They
were cheap. So I would rent cars
825
01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:38.360
and that's how I got to Set. And then one day I'd finally saved
826
01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:43.760
up enough money and I got this
job for I think two months that I
827
01:06:43.800 --> 01:06:45.480
was going to need a car,
and I'm like, I'm just going to
828
01:06:45.519 --> 01:06:47.440
go buy a car. And I
had set my side on this little blue
829
01:06:47.480 --> 01:06:50.920
Mayata. They didn't make a lot
of them, so I wasn't sure i'd
830
01:06:50.920 --> 01:06:54.280
be able to find it. And
I got online and there it was,
831
01:06:54.719 --> 01:06:58.239
like right outside of Los Angeles.
So I bought that, and then then
832
01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:04.159
another Mayata and now I have one
of the new Fiat Spiders. I have
833
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:08.440
the blue one that they only made
one hundred and twenty four of, but
834
01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:14.039
I love it. It's absolutely wonderful
and it's funny. It's like Italian Fiat
835
01:07:14.119 --> 01:07:19.440
styling on a Mazda Miata, like
they they collaborated, so it has all
836
01:07:19.519 --> 01:07:26.239
the reliability of the Mayadas that I
had, but it looks good. So
837
01:07:26.360 --> 01:07:29.760
that's what I have now, and
it's everywhere I go like these guys.
838
01:07:30.320 --> 01:07:32.639
I was like, every time I
stop and I'm parked in it, like
839
01:07:32.719 --> 01:07:35.960
guys come up and talk to me
about it. It's so funny. So
840
01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:43.360
I use a DP that has car
envy all or still lens envy or both.
841
01:07:44.119 --> 01:07:48.960
Hmmm. I don't know, that's
a good question. I kind of
842
01:07:49.159 --> 01:07:54.119
I wish I had more lenses.
Lenses are the thing to buy. You
843
01:07:54.119 --> 01:07:56.320
know, people when they ask me
if I'm going to buy gear, what
844
01:07:56.360 --> 01:07:58.679
camera should I buy? And I'm
like, don't buy a camera, buy
845
01:07:58.760 --> 01:08:04.280
lenses. They're timeless. Like Panavision
has lenses that you know, they used
846
01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:09.360
on major movies in the sixties,
seventies and eighties that you can go rent
847
01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:14.320
for your movie now and they you
know, they just take good care of
848
01:08:14.360 --> 01:08:16.680
them. But the cameras that you're
going to use at Panavision now are completely
849
01:08:16.760 --> 01:08:21.439
different than they used to be.
So lenses last forever. Cameras just last
850
01:08:21.520 --> 01:08:27.600
until the next fad. And the
car, what's the dream car for you?
851
01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:34.520
Well, you know, I would
love a nineteen mid fifties Mercedes SL
852
01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:41.800
convertible. That's my dream car.
Gretchen. Let's fast forward to today than
853
01:08:42.399 --> 01:08:45.199
and what life looks like for you
now, because the strike is still on
854
01:08:45.760 --> 01:08:49.760
and that's really disrupting the industry for
all of you. Yeah it is,
855
01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:56.399
and they're not even negotiating as we
record. So what does life actually look
856
01:08:56.479 --> 01:09:00.640
like for Gretchen Walton at the moment. Well, I'm pretty fortunate in that
857
01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:09.840
ten years ago I circled back to
narrative, and so I started splitting my
858
01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:15.359
time between narrative and unscripted, and
then I started doing live performance like comedy
859
01:09:15.399 --> 01:09:24.439
performances like Dave Chappelle and Kevin Hart
and documentary. I still do as much
860
01:09:24.479 --> 01:09:30.000
documentary as I can, and I
often say, like the money I make
861
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:34.399
on some shows that are I mean, they're okay shows, but that aren't
862
01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:40.000
like the money that I make.
The good money I make on some shows,
863
01:09:40.319 --> 01:09:44.039
I like to give back by working
on documentaries where I may not get
864
01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:45.800
paid at all, or maybe I
get paid one hundred dollars a day,
865
01:09:46.279 --> 01:09:50.279
but I'm really doing it because I
believe in the project. So I do
866
01:09:50.399 --> 01:09:55.159
a lot of doc stuff and I'm
trying to work my way up in the
867
01:09:55.239 --> 01:10:00.560
documentary genre. It's just difficult because
there are a lot of really talented camera
868
01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:09.399
operators and cinematographers there and I'm not
in that world. And usually there's only
869
01:10:09.439 --> 01:10:13.479
one or two operators that are the
main operators, where when I work in
870
01:10:13.600 --> 01:10:17.159
reality, there can be on average
at least ten of us on a show.
871
01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:20.239
And there have been a few shows
I've done where there were twenty of
872
01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:25.000
us or more. So there's bigger
crews, so it's kind of easier to
873
01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:30.239
get in that genre. So this
year with the strike, I've been working
874
01:10:30.319 --> 01:10:33.199
with the team that does cheer Last
Chance You, and this show Wrestlers that
875
01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:40.279
just came out that's really great,
and it's just it's a serious about the
876
01:10:40.359 --> 01:10:44.159
Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, and I go
to Dallas about a week a month to
877
01:10:44.239 --> 01:10:50.560
shoot and it's amazing storytelling and it's
not Union and so I've been doing that,
878
01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:58.359
which has been wonderful because I love
the way this director, Greg Whiteley
879
01:10:59.279 --> 01:11:03.600
and the DP Jonathan Nicholas, the
way they storytell it's slow, they let
880
01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:08.720
things unfold. They don't go they
go in with like a game plan,
881
01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:14.960
but like people are revealed through the
shooting and what they want to talk about
882
01:11:15.159 --> 01:11:19.600
or expose about themselves. And so
instead of it being a shoot that start
883
01:11:19.640 --> 01:11:25.039
to finish is maybe six weeks,
it's going to be months and months of
884
01:11:25.079 --> 01:11:28.760
shooting with the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders.
So I've been doing that, which has
885
01:11:28.800 --> 01:11:33.520
been absolutely fascinating. And then I
just finished a series about women entrepreneurs and
886
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:40.279
to get my union hours and to
keep my insurance. I'm working on Dancing
887
01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:44.800
with the Stars, which is super
fun. I didn't realize how much fun
888
01:11:44.840 --> 01:11:47.159
I was going to have, and
now I know why people that work there
889
01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:50.640
on that show have been there for
so long. It's a really fun,
890
01:11:50.800 --> 01:11:56.199
creative group of people. So I'm
just kind of laying low and doing a
891
01:11:56.199 --> 01:12:03.079
lot of day playing and working on
documentaries. So because I diversified my background,
892
01:12:04.119 --> 01:12:11.159
something's always happening that I'm getting called
for. And I've really, in
893
01:12:11.199 --> 01:12:16.720
the last ten years made a point
to only work with people that I respect
894
01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:23.000
and that I will be treated with
respect and that I appreciate, and I
895
01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:26.960
know I'll be happy and I'll learn
something and i'll gain something and I'll be
896
01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:30.760
challenged in some way. So I
feel like even though I haven't been working
897
01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:35.800
as much this year as I have
in the past, I'm happy. I'm
898
01:12:35.880 --> 01:12:41.119
happy with the pace. I'm making
enough money to pay my bills. I
899
01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:45.079
haven't really added anything to savings this
year, which I'm a big kind of
900
01:12:45.119 --> 01:12:50.199
prepare for retirement person. But I'm
okay, and so I'm very thankful and
901
01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:59.399
very happy and I'm doing good stuff
and I'm still moving forward and everything is
902
01:12:59.479 --> 01:13:02.199
okay. I feel like I've did
pretty good. You won't need to work
903
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:08.479
at Kinko's again anytime soon. No, But man, if you need something
904
01:13:08.560 --> 01:13:14.840
done and follows a photocopy machine,
I can help you out. I'm going
905
01:13:14.840 --> 01:13:17.319
to ask you because it's one of
the things that's on the table for discussion
906
01:13:17.359 --> 01:13:21.640
when they do coming back to negotiations. What are your thoughts on AI?
907
01:13:24.199 --> 01:13:30.560
Well, AI's kind of interesting.
I you know, I kind of heard
908
01:13:30.560 --> 01:13:36.840
about chat box last spring, and
I was really overwhelmed with a lot of
909
01:13:36.880 --> 01:13:41.720
work in the spring. It was
before the strike happened, and I'm in
910
01:13:41.720 --> 01:13:45.920
the Society of Camera Operators and we
had this big event coming up and I
911
01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:53.279
needed to write literature for it,
and I was just struggling describing some stuff.
912
01:13:54.199 --> 01:13:57.680
And somebody's like, oh, just
put it in chat box, and
913
01:13:57.680 --> 01:14:00.439
I'm like, I'm not going to
use a They're like, no, just
914
01:14:00.439 --> 01:14:03.960
put it in there. Just see
what it says, just like do like
915
01:14:04.039 --> 01:14:09.319
a stream of consciousness paragraph. Put
it in there, tell it to edit
916
01:14:09.319 --> 01:14:12.560
it, clean it up a little
bit. I'm like, okay, So
917
01:14:12.600 --> 01:14:15.760
I put it in and what comes
out is like, Oh, that's exactly
918
01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:20.039
what I'm trying to say. And
I'm like, oh, no, so
919
01:14:20.720 --> 01:14:29.199
when And then I worked on a
project with a DP who the client wanted
920
01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:35.079
a storyboard, and so what they
did is they used a type of AI
921
01:14:35.199 --> 01:14:40.399
that will do things visually for you. And there were five actresses that we
922
01:14:40.399 --> 01:14:45.920
were shooting, and so she described
the scene what she wanted, how she
923
01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:49.600
wanted it lit, who all the
actors were going to be, and it
924
01:14:49.680 --> 01:14:57.560
created a still that looks almost exactly
like what we ended up shooting, and
925
01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:03.880
it just created it from her description. And those two moments in time for
926
01:15:04.039 --> 01:15:09.800
me make me realize the impact that
AI is going to have. And I
927
01:15:09.880 --> 01:15:12.800
have friends that for fun are like, oh, we did fan fiction and
928
01:15:12.880 --> 01:15:15.359
had it write an episode of a
show for us that we think is actually
929
01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:24.079
better than what it was written.
And so there's so much corner cutting and
930
01:15:24.119 --> 01:15:29.479
cost cutting involved with television, and
I think it's because, like there's certain
931
01:15:29.520 --> 01:15:33.880
people on the board of directors and
shareholders that they need money, and I
932
01:15:33.920 --> 01:15:40.039
feel like the less money that is
spent in the creation, the more money
933
01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:43.560
that can be given to people that
aren't involved in the creative process. So
934
01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:49.920
those two examples for me and AIS
in early days let me know that we're
935
01:15:49.920 --> 01:15:57.279
in for it. You know,
AI is definitely going to impact writers because
936
01:15:57.319 --> 01:16:01.079
I was able to have it just
what I had written for me. So
937
01:16:01.239 --> 01:16:05.239
even if people are still writing,
you could run it through chatbox to edit
938
01:16:05.279 --> 01:16:10.239
it for you. And editors are
actual people that have jobs and they've spent
939
01:16:10.279 --> 01:16:15.079
their whole life being able to take
somebody's ideas and craft them into nice,
940
01:16:15.239 --> 01:16:21.119
understandable paragraphs. And there are storyboard
artists. I mean, so all these
941
01:16:21.119 --> 01:16:26.279
people could lose their jobs because of
AI. And I don't think it would
942
01:16:26.279 --> 01:16:29.640
be used because AI could do a
better job. I think it would be
943
01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:33.720
used because AI can save money so
that some people can make even more money
944
01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:42.039
than they're already making. And then
the idea for the actors of not owning
945
01:16:42.079 --> 01:16:45.199
their likeness. And this was a
conversation that happened on a shoot I did
946
01:16:45.319 --> 01:16:49.600
over ten years ago where we were
in a big green screen room where they
947
01:16:49.600 --> 01:16:54.399
were running people through capturing them for
a video game, and the guy was
948
01:16:54.439 --> 01:17:00.119
talking about someday we will be able
to put actors faces on all the character
949
01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:02.239
in these video games, and so
if you have a young tongue cruise,
950
01:17:02.279 --> 01:17:05.520
he can be young for life.
And it will also get to the point
951
01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:09.520
where if Tom Cruise is seventy,
you can run him through a program that
952
01:17:09.560 --> 01:17:13.479
will make him thirty again and combine
it with old images so we won't need
953
01:17:13.520 --> 01:17:19.079
actors anymore. And fast forward to
now. And it's especially for backgrounds,
954
01:17:19.119 --> 01:17:25.680
and I'll do plate shots when I
work a narrative where we take twenty to
955
01:17:25.760 --> 01:17:31.520
one hundred people in Sidham and stadium
seats and then and then shoot out the
956
01:17:31.560 --> 01:17:35.840
stadium and then place these people here
and there around the stadium and then fill
957
01:17:35.880 --> 01:17:41.039
in so it looks like a full
stadium. But you've really only used twenty
958
01:17:41.119 --> 01:17:45.159
to maybe one hundred actors that are
only making like one hundred dollars a day
959
01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:54.239
to go do this. And so
I can completely see and the deals that
960
01:17:54.319 --> 01:17:57.760
people sign, especially when they're just
starting out as actors, really are not
961
01:17:57.840 --> 01:18:00.720
in their favor and they sign away
a lot of their rights. I can
962
01:18:00.760 --> 01:18:06.319
see complete libraries being generated of people's
images that are just used in backgrounds and
963
01:18:06.359 --> 01:18:12.439
movies. But those people only making
eighty dollars and then that's it. And
964
01:18:12.479 --> 01:18:15.600
it's you know, for me,
like with copyright, because in the photocopy
965
01:18:15.600 --> 01:18:19.800
shop, I needed to know about
this. I can't just photocopy photos for
966
01:18:19.880 --> 01:18:25.359
people that are copywritten that belongs to
the creator, and I feel like somebody's
967
01:18:25.399 --> 01:18:32.560
image should belong to them and shouldn't
just be used in perpetuity to save people
968
01:18:32.640 --> 01:18:38.039
money. So I think the actors, you know, that whole side of
969
01:18:38.039 --> 01:18:44.640
it, their images being used without
their permission. I think it's going to
970
01:18:44.640 --> 01:18:50.319
get really really complicated, and also
just the cost of living that whole thing.
971
01:18:50.800 --> 01:18:57.279
But then there's also the battle between
traditional networks and streamers, and they
972
01:18:57.279 --> 01:19:00.680
both have two different ways of making
revenue and two different ways of proving it.
973
01:19:00.960 --> 01:19:04.680
And traditional networks it's through advertising,
so it's very clear. You see
974
01:19:04.720 --> 01:19:08.600
all the ads, you know how
much money they have a budget. But
975
01:19:08.640 --> 01:19:13.880
with streamers, the profit that they're
making is more hidden. And also when
976
01:19:13.960 --> 01:19:18.479
I work under a union contract for
new media, everything is negotiable, even
977
01:19:18.560 --> 01:19:23.039
my rate. There's no longer like
a minimum rate. They can go below
978
01:19:23.079 --> 01:19:27.199
it. They can make all these
changes. And that was initially because it
979
01:19:27.239 --> 01:19:30.119
was new media. They didn't know
if it was going to make money.
980
01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:34.159
It was experimental. They needed help
to get going. Well, they don't
981
01:19:34.199 --> 01:19:40.840
need help anymore now. They control
so much that they don't need that assistance.
982
01:19:40.920 --> 01:19:44.079
And I feel like when I work
on a new media show that's going
983
01:19:44.119 --> 01:19:50.039
to make millions and millions of dollars
and the per budget cost is two or
984
01:19:50.079 --> 01:19:56.720
three million dollars per episode, I
should make as much money as I'm making
985
01:19:56.800 --> 01:20:00.680
working on another show that is for
a network it's two or three million dollars
986
01:20:00.720 --> 01:20:05.039
an episode. But that doesn't it's
not working that way. New media pays
987
01:20:05.119 --> 01:20:11.680
less because they're still covered by these
old deals that were made to give them,
988
01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:15.479
to give them a leg up in
the beginning. Your partner, Natalie
989
01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:19.239
Wats, she's also a director and
producer, so you're both impacted by all
990
01:20:19.279 --> 01:20:24.840
of this. And while the landscape
is changing for women, the industry is
991
01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:29.720
evolving too. Yeah, it is, and this year's kind of an interesting
992
01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:32.960
there's a lot of play outside of
the strike and AI. It's, you
993
01:20:33.000 --> 01:20:38.159
know, all the mergers that have
happened, and a lot of places have
994
01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:43.960
given up their endscripted departments and unscripted
departments quite often are not union, so
995
01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:47.399
they could continue to shoot, but
they're not shooting. It's this weird slowdown
996
01:20:47.479 --> 01:20:51.479
all over. Even areas that are
not impacted by the strike, like a
997
01:20:51.479 --> 01:20:57.039
lot of reality and documentary shows,
usually there's a huge boom in reality when
998
01:20:57.079 --> 01:21:00.159
there's a big strike, and that
hasn't happened this year, and that's I
999
01:21:00.199 --> 01:21:04.399
think all the streamers and networks are
trying to figure out what their futures are
1000
01:21:04.439 --> 01:21:11.319
in general regardless of the strike.
So it's got a bigger, wider reaching
1001
01:21:11.399 --> 01:21:15.720
impact than it has in the past. Well, finally, Gretchen, you
1002
01:21:15.760 --> 01:21:20.760
know, this show is all about
promoting women in visual marks, and the
1003
01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:27.760
film industry is certainly one where the
landscape has changed for women in film.
1004
01:21:28.279 --> 01:21:32.039
Do you look at your career and
with the hope that you may have actually
1005
01:21:32.239 --> 01:21:36.399
been influential and part of that changing
landscape for women, because I know how
1006
01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:45.199
much and how passionate you are about
promoting women in the industry. The landscape
1007
01:21:45.199 --> 01:21:48.640
has definitely changed. I feel like
there are more women, especially in narrative,
1008
01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:53.720
because when I started, it was
like, there's just not really many
1009
01:21:53.800 --> 01:21:57.920
women in narrative, especially getting paid, which is why I went to Reality.
1010
01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:01.680
But I looking at the ratios the
other day and I'm still not sure
1011
01:22:02.560 --> 01:22:06.359
because there are a lot more networks
now, there's a lot more content than
1012
01:22:06.399 --> 01:22:12.680
there ever was when I started,
And I'm looking at the ratios and I'm
1013
01:22:12.720 --> 01:22:16.239
like, we still don't really make
up that big of an amount, but
1014
01:22:16.840 --> 01:22:19.920
slow and study, slow and study, and I do feel like that we
1015
01:22:20.039 --> 01:22:28.279
are getting somewhere. And one thing
I think is kind of interesting with us
1016
01:22:28.319 --> 01:22:35.119
getting somewhere is there's this notion that's
kind of circulating right now that women and
1017
01:22:35.199 --> 01:22:41.039
minorities are getting all the jobs and
because of me too, and then the
1018
01:22:41.079 --> 01:22:46.600
big push for inclusivity that women especially
now have opportunities that they've never had before.
1019
01:22:47.319 --> 01:22:54.920
And I feel like that's not quite
the case. And I still am
1020
01:22:55.039 --> 01:23:01.319
quite often the only woman operator,
even with multiple cameras, and I'll still
1021
01:23:01.359 --> 01:23:04.199
have men on those jobs tell me, oh, it's so much easier for
1022
01:23:04.279 --> 01:23:06.920
you now to get work as a
woman, and I'm like, I have
1023
01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:13.600
to point out to them how many
other women are operators here, and they're
1024
01:23:13.640 --> 01:23:15.159
like, well, there's you,
and I'm like yeah, and I'm not
1025
01:23:15.359 --> 01:23:19.239
new, like I've been around.
I've been doing this for twenty five years.
1026
01:23:19.680 --> 01:23:23.119
And it used to be when I
came on set as a woman,
1027
01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:26.920
if people hadn't really worked with the
woman operator before, the idea was like,
1028
01:23:26.960 --> 01:23:29.600
wow, you must be really good
for them to have hired you.
1029
01:23:30.680 --> 01:23:39.640
But now I am no longer kind
of given respect because I have somehow managed
1030
01:23:39.680 --> 01:23:43.479
to make it on set as a
woman. Now there's this thing of you're
1031
01:23:43.560 --> 01:23:48.000
only here because you're a woman,
that's the reason you were hired. And
1032
01:23:48.479 --> 01:23:57.840
now I have to prove my place
on the set, where I never had
1033
01:23:57.840 --> 01:24:01.000
to do that before. It was
a totally different kind of proof. I
1034
01:24:01.039 --> 01:24:04.520
had to prove, Yeah, I'm
going to prove I'm a woman, and
1035
01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:06.880
you think I'm going to be good, and so I have to live up
1036
01:24:06.920 --> 01:24:12.239
to that. But now it's like
I'm a woman and I have to prove
1037
01:24:12.279 --> 01:24:15.359
that I wasn't hired just because I
was a woman. So now there's even
1038
01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:19.159
more pressure on me to do a
really great job just because of my gender,
1039
01:24:19.880 --> 01:24:24.239
not because they hired me to be
an operator. So there's the stress
1040
01:24:24.279 --> 01:24:29.720
that I want to do a good
job because I, like I said earlier,
1041
01:24:29.720 --> 01:24:32.479
I'm trying to work with people that
I respect and that will I want
1042
01:24:32.520 --> 01:24:35.760
to work for them more because I
appreciate the content that they do and how
1043
01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:41.680
they tell their stories, and their
ethics and their respect for crew and how
1044
01:24:41.680 --> 01:24:45.880
people respect them. So I want
to do a good job because I want
1045
01:24:45.880 --> 01:24:49.680
to work for these people. But
now there's the added thing of I also
1046
01:24:49.800 --> 01:24:53.640
have to do a good job to
prove to people I wasn't hired just because
1047
01:24:53.680 --> 01:24:57.479
I was a woman, which I
feel like kind of makes it even harder
1048
01:24:57.520 --> 01:25:00.840
than it used to be. And
then than the pushback from the guys,
1049
01:25:01.039 --> 01:25:04.720
and for some reason, they feel
like I'm going to be sympathetic about them
1050
01:25:04.760 --> 01:25:09.880
not being able to get work,
and I'm like, I still don't think
1051
01:25:10.000 --> 01:25:15.359
that it's that much harder for you
to get work. And if I'm getting
1052
01:25:15.399 --> 01:25:18.920
offered this job because I am a
woman, I'll take it because I have
1053
01:25:19.039 --> 01:25:25.359
been told to my face countless times
that I'm not going to be hired because
1054
01:25:25.359 --> 01:25:30.680
I'm a woman, or I don't
have a family to support, or you
1055
01:25:30.680 --> 01:25:33.760
know, just all the reasons why
I haven't been hired because I'm a woman.
1056
01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:38.319
And it's like, oh, okay, I'll take it, but I
1057
01:25:38.319 --> 01:25:42.840
can back it up. So it's
this weird time right now of like women
1058
01:25:42.920 --> 01:25:47.279
now having to prove ourselves all over
again, but in a different ways.
1059
01:25:48.560 --> 01:25:53.520
It's not just them thinking we can't
do it. It's thinking them thinking we
1060
01:25:53.880 --> 01:25:56.960
can't do it, and we took
their job away from them. On the
1061
01:25:57.000 --> 01:26:02.039
way to set this morning, so
it's kind of dificult. I know you've
1062
01:26:02.079 --> 01:26:08.960
been a great champion for women in
the industry, and finally, let's tell
1063
01:26:09.000 --> 01:26:14.399
everybody how they can find you online, Gretchen and on social media so they
1064
01:26:14.439 --> 01:26:18.039
can follow you and see how you're
supporting other women. Okay, yeah,
1065
01:26:18.039 --> 01:26:24.560
this is actually you know something that
I should have mentioned like six hours ago
1066
01:26:24.600 --> 01:26:29.199
with this when we started talking.
I Uh. My instagram is an Instagram
1067
01:26:29.239 --> 01:26:33.199
called Lady Camera Guy, and I
started it five years ago, and it
1068
01:26:33.279 --> 01:26:39.159
kind of started out as a self
promotion because I worked with some women cinematographers
1069
01:26:39.159 --> 01:26:41.920
that are you need to have a
page, you need to promote yourself,
1070
01:26:41.960 --> 01:26:43.960
and this, that and the other. So I started it as that.
1071
01:26:45.159 --> 01:26:47.720
But I'm a little funny about being
in front of the camera calling a lot
1072
01:26:47.720 --> 01:26:53.800
of attention to myself. So to
make myself feel better, I started posting
1073
01:26:53.840 --> 01:27:00.319
photos of women I work with,
and then on Instagram, I start guarded
1074
01:27:00.680 --> 01:27:03.479
seeing other women that were operators.
I'm like, oh, they're cool,
1075
01:27:04.159 --> 01:27:08.119
I love that photo, I love
what they have to say about whatever.
1076
01:27:08.600 --> 01:27:12.800
So I started following all these women
and started reposting them also, and then
1077
01:27:12.840 --> 01:27:15.760
it's just kind of turned into I
very seldom do I post about myself,
1078
01:27:16.199 --> 01:27:23.680
but right now, what Lady Camera
Guy is is it's an Instagram page that
1079
01:27:23.720 --> 01:27:28.960
features women operators and some of them
are also dps that operate. So for
1080
01:27:29.000 --> 01:27:33.039
me, the important thing is that
every woman that is on the page also
1081
01:27:33.840 --> 01:27:38.880
can pick up a camera and operate
with it. And it's too and you
1082
01:27:38.920 --> 01:27:43.119
know, I have students that are
just starting out all the way to like
1083
01:27:43.279 --> 01:27:46.720
Mandy Walker, who's like my favorite
female cinematographer. They're all in there in
1084
01:27:46.760 --> 01:27:53.119
the same week because it's just it's
kind of to encourage any woman who's thinking
1085
01:27:53.159 --> 01:27:58.680
about operating or who is already an
operator that there are other women operating,
1086
01:27:58.880 --> 01:28:01.920
and here they are. There are
hundreds of them, thousands of them all
1087
01:28:01.960 --> 01:28:06.760
over the world, and it's kind
of nice because you know, sometimes I'll
1088
01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:15.039
travel to countries where they do not
believe that women are capable of being camera
1089
01:28:15.079 --> 01:28:21.239
operators. So having worked and shot
in those countries and having had the locals
1090
01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:29.159
tell me I've never met a woman
before, you can't operate, like to
1091
01:28:29.239 --> 01:28:31.600
my face, telling me I'm terrible
at my job just because I'm a woman,
1092
01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:34.920
without ever seeing anything that I've shot, and they feel like they can
1093
01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:38.359
tell me this. I don't know
the things that people have said to my
1094
01:28:38.399 --> 01:28:42.760
face that could be a whole Instagram
page on its own. But I love
1095
01:28:42.840 --> 01:28:45.520
it because when I see women in
these countries, I know that they need
1096
01:28:45.560 --> 01:28:50.199
to be reposted. And there have
been women in small countries that kind of
1097
01:28:50.199 --> 01:28:55.079
thought maybe they were the only woman
with the camera trying to make it,
1098
01:28:55.439 --> 01:28:59.199
and they'll see somebody else I've posted, and then they connect off my page.
1099
01:29:00.439 --> 01:29:04.159
So the lady camera guy has become
kind of bigger than myself. And
1100
01:29:04.199 --> 01:29:08.520
so I feel like I have an
obligation. I post, try to post
1101
01:29:08.560 --> 01:29:11.439
twice a day, and I feel
like I have an obligation to, like,
1102
01:29:12.239 --> 01:29:15.560
you know, find new women.
And you know, obligations the wrong
1103
01:29:15.600 --> 01:29:19.640
word for it. I love when
I come across somebody that I have am
1104
01:29:19.640 --> 01:29:23.560
not following, that I didn't know
existed, and I'm like, oh my
1105
01:29:23.600 --> 01:29:27.239
god, here's somebody else. And
they are all these wildlife women that are
1106
01:29:27.279 --> 01:29:30.880
coming out of nowhere. And I
know that's a really tough one because you
1107
01:29:30.880 --> 01:29:33.720
know, they're climbing mountains and all
this stuff that they're traveling the world and
1108
01:29:33.720 --> 01:29:38.479
they're doing all this great stuff,
and so for me, it's a way
1109
01:29:38.520 --> 01:29:43.479
to like, really, you know, put the faces of women with cameras
1110
01:29:43.760 --> 01:29:45.479
out there, so that other women
can look at it and they can be
1111
01:29:45.560 --> 01:29:49.600
inspired by it, and they can
connect with it and they can feel better
1112
01:29:49.920 --> 01:29:55.439
and they can reach out to these
women. I only post from public pages,
1113
01:29:56.640 --> 01:30:00.039
and for some reason, women are
a little approa of about making their
1114
01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:05.880
pages public, which is unfortunate because
there's some amazing private pages. But I
1115
01:30:05.960 --> 01:30:10.319
only post from public pages. And
one of the reasons I do that is
1116
01:30:10.319 --> 01:30:14.760
because it's out there, it's in
public, and I always repost exactly what
1117
01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:16.920
they have said, how they want
to present themselves. Very rarely will I
1118
01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:21.520
add to it. But also so
that the women that are following them they
1119
01:30:21.560 --> 01:30:25.920
can go to that page and they
can look through it and they can learn
1120
01:30:26.000 --> 01:30:30.600
from it. And because some people
are a little intimidated about can I follow
1121
01:30:30.640 --> 01:30:35.039
you asking to simply asking to follow
somebody who's not public, So this way
1122
01:30:35.079 --> 01:30:40.840
it's really accessible for people, even
if they're a bit intimidated. And I
1123
01:30:40.960 --> 01:30:45.880
have over sixty thousand followers, and
yeah, I'm very very proud of it.
1124
01:30:45.960 --> 01:30:49.079
I think it's a good thing and
it's really and I'll go places that
1125
01:30:49.159 --> 01:30:51.479
people will be like Oh, Hi, what's your name? And I'll introduce
1126
01:30:51.560 --> 01:30:54.119
myself a bit. Oh, it's
very good to meet, you know.
1127
01:30:54.159 --> 01:30:57.640
I'll be like, I'm lady camera
guy and they're like, oh my god,
1128
01:30:57.720 --> 01:31:00.039
you're lady camera guy. And then
they talk to me about how it's
1129
01:31:00.079 --> 01:31:04.199
inspired them or that I posted them, because I recognize a lot of these
1130
01:31:04.199 --> 01:31:09.359
women when I'm out, and I
forget that I don't post myself much,
1131
01:31:09.399 --> 01:31:12.840
so they don't necessarily know who I
am or what I look like. But
1132
01:31:12.880 --> 01:31:15.840
I'm very well aware of who they
are and what they look like. So
1133
01:31:15.840 --> 01:31:20.720
it's kind of fun. And I'm
also on the board of Society of Camera
1134
01:31:20.760 --> 01:31:27.439
Operators and constantly trying to get women
to join sec And the nice thing about
1135
01:31:27.520 --> 01:31:31.079
SECS is just focused on operating.
It's not about being a director of photography
1136
01:31:31.159 --> 01:31:36.760
or cinematographer director. It's not about
being an above the line force. It's
1137
01:31:36.800 --> 01:31:43.520
about being the best operator that you
can be and honing those skills and having
1138
01:31:43.640 --> 01:31:47.960
pride and being an operator because in
certain genres there's not necessarily a pride in
1139
01:31:48.039 --> 01:31:51.640
operating because everybody's like, but I
DP, But I'm a DP. I
1140
01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:58.000
just happen to be operating. But
it's society of camera operators like there are
1141
01:31:58.560 --> 01:32:01.479
there's this guy Jeff who's on our
board, who's one of the nicest guys
1142
01:32:01.479 --> 01:32:05.760
ever wad he's so great. He's
an actor's deal memos that he is their
1143
01:32:05.800 --> 01:32:12.000
a camera operator regardless of who the
director or the DP is. So it's
1144
01:32:12.119 --> 01:32:17.720
like so much power and so much
pride in the act of operating and how
1145
01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:23.560
much influence an operator can bring to
a set. And then it's not all
1146
01:32:23.600 --> 01:32:28.359
about the director of photography, and
that you should never be ashamed that you're
1147
01:32:28.439 --> 01:32:32.119
not on a trajectory to be a
DP, that you are perfectly content to
1148
01:32:32.159 --> 01:32:38.199
operate, but you can always be
better. So that's a great space.
1149
01:32:38.239 --> 01:32:42.199
And I've been able to get unscripted
people on the board and a lot of
1150
01:32:42.239 --> 01:32:47.720
unscripted people involved in SAVEE Camera Operators. And this year they have decided to
1151
01:32:47.800 --> 01:32:54.279
have the first ever Lifetime Achievement Award
and unscripted. Up until now, it's
1152
01:32:54.319 --> 01:32:57.399
all been narrative, but this year
it's going to be unscripted. And the
1153
01:32:57.439 --> 01:33:02.239
first woman that will receive this award
is a woman named Mandy Whittaker. And
1154
01:33:02.279 --> 01:33:09.039
we started out on Real World Seattle
together twenty five years ago, and she's
1155
01:33:09.039 --> 01:33:13.239
had an amazing career. She's been
nominated for Emmy's as a camera operator.
1156
01:33:14.560 --> 01:33:20.239
She's working tirelessly with the union to
keep unscripted operators safe because you know,
1157
01:33:20.239 --> 01:33:24.399
it's quite often they want us to
shoot in cars, shoot for hours at
1158
01:33:24.439 --> 01:33:29.560
a time, which destroys our bodies
and other things. And she's working to
1159
01:33:29.680 --> 01:33:36.319
make us safer. And she's always
pushing unscripted further and elevating the name of
1160
01:33:36.399 --> 01:33:42.840
unscripted and in the union, she
got on the union board because unscripted operators
1161
01:33:42.880 --> 01:33:50.319
are kind of under this videotape agreement, which is lower echelon deal with the
1162
01:33:50.439 --> 01:33:53.720
union, and they don't get paid
a lot, but we work very,
1163
01:33:53.800 --> 01:33:57.359
very hard and we get our bodies
get torn up, and she's trying to
1164
01:33:57.399 --> 01:34:00.680
like make improvements there, and so
she's really been a big advocate for operators.
1165
01:34:00.920 --> 01:34:06.640
And she's a beautiful shooter in her
own rights. So you know that
1166
01:34:06.720 --> 01:34:10.920
the award is going to go to
her. This first year makes a lot
1167
01:34:10.960 --> 01:34:15.479
of sense to me because she's she's
a fantastic operator, but in addition to
1168
01:34:15.560 --> 01:34:20.119
that, she's also elevated our lives
as operators along the way. So I'm
1169
01:34:20.159 --> 01:34:26.479
really proud of that. Well,
Lady Camera Guy, I knew this would
1170
01:34:26.520 --> 01:34:31.239
be fun. Tony was so thank
you so much for coming on the show.
1171
01:34:31.920 --> 01:34:34.720
Thank you for having me. I'm
such a chatterbox. I just looked
1172
01:34:34.720 --> 01:34:38.920
at the time and it's like,
oh, I wrote this list in front
1173
01:34:38.960 --> 01:34:42.119
of me. I will be focused, I will not wander, I will
1174
01:34:42.159 --> 01:34:46.760
be to the point, and I
have done I've done everything but that.
1175
01:34:47.000 --> 01:34:50.479
But it's I mean, I feel
like you just bring it out in people
1176
01:34:50.680 --> 01:34:55.479
like I feel very comfortable talking to
you, and it's a great honor for
1177
01:34:55.520 --> 01:34:59.880
me to be part of your podcast. The artist that you had on a
1178
01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:03.520
season one. I'm still listening,
you know, as I drive around,
1179
01:35:03.600 --> 01:35:10.239
and it's just such fascinating stories.
It's absolutely and so if anybody hasn't listened
1180
01:35:10.279 --> 01:35:12.960
to season one of this podcast,
you need to check it out. It's
1181
01:35:12.960 --> 01:35:15.920
pretty amazing. Well, thank you
so much. I really appreciate it and
1182
01:35:16.159 --> 01:35:19.960
all the introductions you've made to me
for the women in the industry who we
1183
01:35:20.039 --> 01:35:24.479
will spotlight here on the show.
So thanks again for your time. Gretchen
1184
01:35:24.520 --> 01:35:29.279
really enjoyed talking to you. Thank
you, Thank you. Be sure to
1185
01:35:29.319 --> 01:35:33.079
follow Gretchen on Instagram at Lady camera
Guy. There'll be a link in the
1186
01:35:33.159 --> 01:35:39.359
show notes accompanying this episode to her
Instagram and also to her website, where
1187
01:35:39.359 --> 01:35:44.000
you'll find her current real and portfolio. And I hope you'll give us a
1188
01:35:44.039 --> 01:35:46.600
follow too. On social media.
You can find us on Instagram at the
1189
01:35:46.760 --> 01:35:51.760
art podcast That's Art with two A's, and on Facebook at Hollowell Studios,
1190
01:35:53.520 --> 01:35:59.439
and if you prefer email, our
address is Hollowell Studios at gmail dot com.
1191
01:36:00.359 --> 01:36:02.880
I'll be back next week with another
guest from the world of visual arts,
1192
01:36:03.479 --> 01:36:14.359
so I do hope you'll join me, then follow me