Authenticity Isn’t Enough: Visibility, Leadership & Disrupting Tradition with Founder Amanda Thomson

Alex Standley: Welcome back to A Styled Life. Today's conversation feels especially personal to me because around maybe two to three years ago, I stopped drinking alcohol and it wasn't a dramatic rock bottom moment or anything like that. It was a very quiet, intentional kind of gradual realization that I had that I no longer wanted to sort of keep up with that peer pressure. ⁓ for something that I didn't really resonate or enjoy as much as I used to. ⁓ And what surprised me the most wasn't like a dramatic sort of physical shift or anything like that. It was the social one ⁓ and the one, you know, associated with my identity. ⁓ And, you know, who am I now in the room if I'm no longer holding an alcoholic drink? ⁓ So when I came across today's guest, a woman redefining what premium celebratory sophisticated drinking looks like, I knew that this was a great conversation to bring to you today. So Amanda Thompson is the CEO and founder of Thompson and Scott and creator of Naughty, which is the world's first premium non-alcoholic wine portfolio. From the BBC to building a global drinks brand stocked in some of the most respected venues in the world, she's leading a cultural shift. Amanda, welcome to A Styled Life.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Thank you, Alex. And interesting to hear your story. I didn't know there was that direct relevance. So yeah, great to be here.
Alex Standley: Thank you so much for joining us. So I'd love to get into your background and how you got into where you are now with the brand. So I know that you began your career as an arts broadcaster at the BBC. That's obviously such a creative and cultural world. What was the shift that moved you from there to building a premium drinks brand? I'd love to hear about that.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, it's interesting. There's been quite a few journalists historically who've transitioned to entrepreneurship actually. I suppose storytelling is the synergy. Yeah, my move or dramatic, yeah, dramatic change really was, it was fueled by, in the art space, social media was really quite new. And I was sitting down back in the day with artists and...
Alex Standley: haha
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: directors and celebrities and whoever, you know, and getting a lot of one-to-one time, like we're talking now and in the room together. And actually, hilariously, my husband is a publicist and we met at the Cannes Film Festival, but the publicists were becoming more more prominent and you were getting sort of free questions, screenings as to what you wanted to ask people. And the world was changing quite dramatically and the nexus with arts and showbiz and...
Alex Standley: Hmm. Yeah. Mm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: and things that were a bit more populist were really coming to the fore. And I remember actually having a bit of a light bulb moment when someone, just a friend, I think at dinner had said to me, ⁓ who are you most excited to interview now in your career? Because I'd done some really interesting sort of interviews and I couldn't think of anyone. And it wasn't that I didn't want to meet anybody, that I hadn't met everybody exciting in the world, far from it. But I realized that perhaps it was time for change.
Alex Standley: No. you
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: I'm not hugely into star science, but I'm a Gemini and I think I'm quite a typical one and we're quite changeable. And I'd really had a fantastic career. And I thought, well, perhaps now's the time to build something of my own. And of course, being a broadcaster journalist back in the day, you were really a pawn in the editor's game in the same way that actors sometimes want to direct or produce because they want to control things. And so I think that...
Alex Standley: Yeah. Hmm
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: came together really to lead me to completely change my career and actually go back to being a student of wine initially, so doing my wine diploma in Paris.
Alex Standley: And what led you from that moment? Was there a moment that you realized that you wanted to really challenge the industry and, you know, I guess the normal way of doing things.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, at that point, actually, champagne was my North Star. So I was really driven by a love of fine wine and champagne. So my entry into entrepreneurship and the wine industry was through fine wine. And so actually, I built a champagne brand first. I think it's highly pertinent that I...
Alex Standley: Okay. Hmm. Okay.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: earned my stripes and champagne from a qualitative perspective and just my love of palette of wine. So for wine people, it's essentially taste, but it's how that wine is made and what you're getting in the mouth when you're drinking it. And also the brand build piece and just an understanding of...
Alex Standley: Hmm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: of where champagne sat in the cultural and global world, because I started to work in America and understand in America for alcohol sales, they have what they call a three tier system. It's quite complicated. And so I started to understand that. And what I started to realize was that my special sort of place and therefore became, guess, my superpower in the industry was respecting tradition and history.
Alex Standley: you Okay.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: but really being obsessed with future and innovation and trend. And so that idea of democratizing fine wine, I mean, it's quite fashionable now to speak a bit more plainly about things. Certainly when people are trying to get younger consumers on board, but it was always my way, even with a great champagne, everyone would say, what should I taste? And I'd sort of say, well, do you like it? And they'd be like, well, what do you mean? What am I supposed to taste? And I'd say,
Alex Standley: you Hmm. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: does it make you feel good? And I think while I love all of the facts, figures, geek, I'm kind of a wine nerd at heart, I think that why we lost that connection in the wine industry particularly and why the spirits world and other beverages, as they say, took off.
Alex Standley: Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: was that I think it's extremely cliquey and exclusive, or it historically has been. And I guess I was one of the first people really in the industry to try to break that down.
Alex Standley: Yeah, I think there's perhaps a feeling that it's elitist or that, you know, if you don't know what you're talking about or you don't have a lot of knowledge about wine, then perhaps you feel a bit of an outsider or that you can't enjoy it in the same way. Was that your experience and kind of what you were wanting to challenge at the time?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, and I think if you talk about the art world, another world I love, you could argue that that world is similar. You know, that sort of juxtaposition between a perceived elitist world and yet a simplicity to take something as you find it. I think that's a really interesting space for me. And so I guess I would sort of draw that synergy with my background of loving the fine art and particularly the modern art world.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Mm. Hmm. And so what took you from that ⁓ champagne and kind of high end into the non-alcoholic route?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, that was an interesting one. think I was never a big drinker. So that's a bit of a strange thing, but Gen X I am, and most of my crowd drank quite hard. And it wasn't that I didn't enjoy a drink, but I didn't luckily have a problem with it. ⁓
Alex Standley: I'm Mm-mm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Most of my friends and family, in that sort of generation, alcohol was very much knitted into one's life. Certainly in the media and the film world, which I came from, the arts world, my husband, my business partner now, bars, all of us in that creative space, alcohol was very much in the fabric of one's life, whatever your relationship was with it. And I think that...
Alex Standley: Hmm. Yeah. Mm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Rather than actually at the time unpack that psychologically, I think that I'd grown up with a very much ⁓ health food focused mother who was before her time really in terms of the whole food movement. She used to deliver muesli on her bicycle in the seventies just to put...
Alex Standley: ⁓ wow.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: food on the table. Yeah, this was way before wellness and now it's obviously quite expensive to eat in sort of healthy shops and, know, but that was really her buzz just to put food on the table. And so I guess alcohol was not ever in my mind something that I could frame as healthy. You know, now we publicly obviously are starting to align it with cigarettes and drugs, aren't we? Even in the sort of global
Alex Standley: Mmm. No.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: scientific world, but I think rationally, for anyone who was smart enough, didn't take, you know, didn't take extreme academia to recognise that we couldn't really pretend it was good for us. And you had all those sort of articles, red wine is good for the heart and you all of those very much alcohol generated. So I think, you know, I was very constant that that was all nonsense. You know, if I was going to drink it, I couldn't pretend it was it was a health elixir. But equally, I was also
Alex Standley: No. ⁓ yeah. you
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: often at events and things. And I was just ending up drinking a huge amount of sparkling water because if I wasn't drinking wine and I might only have one glass and I'd be fussy about it anyway, so I might have another glass off. So I would just be drinking sparkling water because I didn't want a sugary drink. And so that sort of recognition that in my mind as well as everybody's mind, champagne was...
Alex Standley: you No.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: that sort of beautiful celebratory ritual. I was sort of unpacking that and thinking, well, in a literal sense, there's nothing for me to drink. And let's actually unpack this obsession with alcohol and celebration. And I was really struck at that point. It's that classic sort of light bulb. I was struck that no one before ever.
Alex Standley: Mm. Mm. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: had made a good non-alcoholic wine. And what I mean by that is a non-alcoholic wine that a wine drinker like me would drink. And yes, I was that consumer. And then when I realized that lack and white space was there, I set about to see if I could really fix that issue while also recognizing as someone who was quite trend obsessed that that was in my mind.
Alex Standley: Yeah. you
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: there was no confusion that that was the way the world would go. It was just that I was a bit earlier on the journey.
Alex Standley: I love that. So how many years ago was that?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Well, I finally got Norty the sparkling Chardonnay, the original sort of hero alternative to a Blanc de Blanc champagne. I got that to market in New York and London in sort of autumn or fall, as they say, York, 19, 2019. And so really I was the first person ever to put good and non-alcoholic wine together and really grow the brand within the wine industry, which... was always very important to me actually. And that's why I'm very proud of the fact that I've come through the fine wine world. I think that does set me apart from many founders in the non-alcoholic space. And I'm not saying it's better or worse, but I think for me, it's very relevant that my success came through champagne and fine wine.
Alex Standley: Mm. Mm. Well, I think it's like you said about understanding what somebody who has, you know, historically enjoyed wine or champagne or whatever it might be, what they're going to want to drink, you know, in the non-alcoholic form. Because as you said, I've definitely found, you know, unless I want to have either water or something that's, you know, a Coke or something that's syrupy and sweet and sugary, there often aren't that many decent alternatives where you feel like you're part of whatever the event is or the celebration or whatever it might be. And I've particularly found going to, you know, awards ceremonies or those kinds of events on the table, the traditional thing is, is, you know, bottles of wine and the alternative is water and that's it. And, and I think that It's changing a little bit, but I think there's still so far to go because it's just not a consideration for a lot of event organizers. They don't have a really great alternative. Definitely not on the table. And then if you do, yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And now they do. We just have to make sure they know about it.
Alex Standley: Yes, exactly. So I think it's amazing that you can feel like you're part of it and ⁓ still enjoy what you're drinking. Because for me, as you said, I did used to enjoy a glass of wine or a glass of champagne and ⁓ working in the fashion industry was very similar. was every Friday. I remember when I worked at Marks and Spencer every Friday and the office would be like Prosecco Friday. ⁓ and we would have, you know, bottles in the office and then we would go to the local pub and all socialize together and socializing was all around alcohol. And I suppose similar to you, I didn't really, I think I got to the point where I wasn't really enjoying that so much because I've never really been a big drinker. think, you know, I enjoyed ⁓ nightlife at university in London and did drink a lot. ⁓ but I had never been a big drinker and it just wasn't, I enjoyed the social aspect of it more than the drinking side of it. for me, was kind of deciding to be a bit truer to who I was and prioritizing my health and all of those things, rather than feeling like I needed to follow what everybody else was doing to fit in with the social side of things. But I think your brand kind of enables that in a much more positive way.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, that's really interesting. Everything you're saying resonates with where I really want my brand to be because of course we say that we're a really delicious wine without alcohol. mean, I'd strap my wine just better. mean, you know, what I love is that people use it as a prop and they don't always have to tell people they're not drinking if they don't want to. Obviously it's much better for me. They shout from the rooftops. It's naughty for the brand.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: But you see that duality and I think that Brits, even Americans, I work a lot in America, know, socializing is so linked. And what I think is very sad, because this is happening less and less in the modern world, is that workplace group socialization piece is happening less. And we almost don't want to lose that, but how do we emolliate it successfully when it doesn't have to be everybody drinking alcohol if they don't want to?
Alex Standley: Mm. Yeah. Mmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And you see, that's where I feel like brands like mine can really fit in so beautifully.
Alex Standley: Absolutely, and I guess it's all about choice as well. You know, it's not, as you said earlier, it's not that anything is good or bad, it's just individuals being able to ⁓ enjoy socializing in a way that suits them and suits their lifestyle. ⁓ And I think historically that has been quite challenging because I think... Alcohol is so kind of deeply woven into how we connect and how we celebrate and how we signal success. Like I remember being at another awards ceremony, must have been a couple of years ago now, and I won an award and somebody offered me like a glass of champagne or something. And I was too embarrassed to kind of say, you know, I'm not drinking. So I just kind of took it and then gave it to my friend. But again, it's like another signal of like, you you've done something amazing and you know, this is a great success. So we must celebrate with a glass of champagne. So it's all those kind of underlying signals around alcohol that can be sometimes a bit, what's the word, like awkward in those social situations. And as you said, you don't necessarily have to kind of openly discuss. your choices if you've got an alternative that, you know, looks and acts the same as alcohol.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Exactly.
Alex Standley: So for women, because I know that I'm having this conversation more and more now, I think when I first kind of started out on this journey, I felt like I was very much in the minority in terms of the women that I socialize with and just the places that I was going out and connecting. But I feel like I'm having these conversations more where more women are choosing, they're not necessarily sober and never touch alcohol, but they're choosing more intentionally not to drink in certain situations. How important do you think that is to have an option that still feels premium, so that you're not just having to order a lemonade and pretend it's gin and tonic or whatever it is?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: I think that's key and you've hit that nail on the head. And I think there are some great brands that have the word mocktail in their title. so I don't want to denigrate that. But I think the problem historically with that word and certainly in the UK market was it would really kind of pertain to like those really sugary smoothies we'd give our children, you know, with umbrellas on top and straws. And that's perfect for kids, but it's not what an adult wants to be drinking. And what I liked about the American movement was
Alex Standley: Mm. Bye.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: they were very focused on that idea of an adult beverage. And I think that that is quite important terminology. And I think that it's so important because what's happened now is we've got such a great...
Alex Standley: Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: influx of successful non-alcoholic beer brands, because that market is really way ahead. I was really the first in wine in 2019, so it shows you. The non-alcoholic beer movement has been growing steadily across the past couple of decades, to the point where now every single beer brand pretty much, I think, has a decent, if you like beer, non-alcoholic alternative. The problem was that for wine drinkers like me, and I think that we had really been ignored, because actually there's so many millions of wine drinkers around the world who don't touch beer.
Alex Standley: Yeah. you Mm. Mmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: So therefore we wouldn't touch non-alcoholic beers and we wouldn't necessarily be touching the spirit-based cocktail list and therefore that's why we don't switch anyway naturally to non-alcoholic cocktails. And I think that historically most of the successful gatekeepers of the drinks industry have been men and there's nothing, know, that's just history like many industries and the women are coming through.
Alex Standley: Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: But I think there was a lot of that, going back to your point about events. I was watching the Brits the other night and I could see a very famous Japanese non-alcoholic beer on screen and I saw the champagne and I turned to my husband. I'm a classic founder, always working, trying to relax on TV. I'm like, right, we should be there next year. But therein lies that point. I think gatekeepers have been like, right, beer, non-alcoholic beer, done.
Alex Standley: you Bye. Yeah. Mmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: you know, and of course, because we're a much more nascent industry in non-alcoholic wine, you know, everything takes time to filter through. I think to go back to your point, because it's now fashionable, I think that's very useful, because it means that women like you are speaking up, women are much more
Alex Standley: Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: comfortable now speaking up and saying, actually, I don't drink so much. I do want to go out. once, you know, because Gen Z have done a great job of making it fashionable, I think it's helpful for all of us. When you get into data, it's really interesting because every single generation from Gen Z up to Boomers,
Alex Standley: Mmm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: have potentially been cutting alcohol at different points, but it's just the fact that Gen Z are much noisier online about it, and they'll have different motivations. Whereas of course, boomers will traditionally be cutting alcohol for health reasons, right? And I think with Gen X, with women, you know, the menopause plays a huge part. And even with men, you know, that middle-aged point where they realize that perhaps they're not gonna live forever, you know, that's a literal...
Alex Standley: Mm. Yeah. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: point of life, isn't it, that we have to reevaluate ourselves. So I think there's so much to unpack. And what's been fascinating for me is how many different stories I hear from people because it's like my brand has given them that comfortable sort of place to share the story. And because we're a brand that is all about what we give in the positive, nothing to do with deficit and no judgment.
Alex Standley: Mm. Mmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: You know, we take no position on alcohol. We're alcohol agnostic. You know, drink or don't drink, I take no position. We say we've got a really delicious celebratory drink that can fit into your life like wine, but there's no alcohol. It's all about the pluses and what we bring in a positive way to your life, as opposed to that kind of classic deficit we all feel, ⁓ not drinking, that's depressing.
Alex Standley: Mmm. you the finale. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: can't eat much at the moment, I'm on a diet or whatever, everything's all about that kind of sense of loss and therefore we want to do things more. You know, I think that's the psyche, right? And we flip that script and we say, Nort is amazing, it's a great drink, you know, whatever, try it. There's nothing not to like or to be negative about. And I think that's where that white space operates where you can really change people's habits by encouraging them just to integrate.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: naughty into their everyday wine drinking and that's start to see a shift because it tastes really good and you're replacing that ritual.
Alex Standley: you Yes, definitely. And ⁓ I went to the Women's Chapter event a couple of weeks ago at ⁓ the house. And you obviously had ⁓ provided Norty at that event. And again, it was beautiful because I just felt like, you know, the same as everybody else. know, some people were drinking, you know, champagne or I'm not sure what the ⁓ other alternative was. But on the surface, it looked very much the same. And it was a kind of beautiful moment because it was like feeling part of the event and what was happening, but also knowing that I was choosing intentionally and having something that felt equal to everybody else. So I think that's the beauty of your brand, definitely. And it feels premium and it feels intentional. And as you said, it doesn't feel like you're sacrificing anything. It feels like you're very much a part of... what's happening, so I really love that. I'd love to talk more about you as a founder and your identity and perhaps how you've seen that shift from working at the BBC and being employed and then moving to a founder led brand, how that's impacted the way that you show up and your identity. And then we'll talk a little bit about style and how that fits into that as well.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. Just now unpacking it in my mind, I think that the commonality for me of business growth and entrepreneurship and my previous career in journalism is that sort of questions and learning and that idea that you're never done with learning. And so I suppose as a journalist, I got very comfortable being uncomfortable in that.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: every time I'd go on a story, I'd only know a little bit about something. And the beauty for me of journalism was always learning and meeting people and growing and asking provocative questions. And so for me, that isn't dissimilar from business when you're growing a founder led company. And I think that if it had been a more traditional...
Alex Standley: Mmm. Yeah. No.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: corporate historical role I'd had, perhaps that transition would have been more jarring. But I think I was always, I would take short contracts as a broadcaster and so I was always having to move on and you're always having to sell yourself for the next job. And so that element of change was the only constant. And that for me as a founder, I guess, is the same way I was with one of my oldest friends yesterday.
Alex Standley: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. you
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: and she's got a nine-five. And, you know, we were talking about the differences in our life, because she was saying, oh, I'm really good at every morning about doing a walk in the woods by my house. I still got that, it's really impressive. I admire your willpower. It'll come rain and shine getting out for a walk. I was like, brilliant. And I was thinking, what's my excuse for not doing that every morning? Ah, yeah, I'm hardly ever at home. You know what I mean? So no day for me is the same, conversely, and we were unpacking our different lives.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Yeah. Mm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And I think that ⁓ it's not for everybody that sort of uncomfortable piece that you're always sitting with and bringing on a new staff member. And I was explaining to her with her job, some of it is you have got the repetition of some tasks, but equally, if you're joining an entrepreneurial company,
Alex Standley: No. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: I always say to people, will have to get used to being uncomfortable, comfortable being uncomfortable. And actually, I do a course with teenagers that I run with Wellington College, and we work with state schools. And one of the key sort of tenets of the course really, and what we're teaching these teenagers about being the leaders of tomorrow, you know,
Alex Standley: Yeah. definitely.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Because whatever these teenagers do in life, we all know with AI and the drastic changes the whole workplace is going through, the chances of them being in one job for life are virtually nil, right? So just getting them really used to that idea. And I think it's almost counterintuitive to the education system, which is striving for perfection.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Mm. Mm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Perfection doesn't exist. So I've obviously gone full circle in answering your question, but really I think that that synergy of being used to being uncomfortable is probably very pertinent.
Alex Standley: Definitely. And have you found in the way that you ⁓ dress and your identity from a presence and a visual point of view that that has evolved and that's changed quite a lot? do you feel that you were kind of quite visible in your previous role anyway, so it hasn't shifted as much for you?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: I think I was visible because I was on television and obviously television is a very visual medium, but events again, so yes. I think that ⁓ honestly, when I was very young, I really admire and the core of my sort of focus on style is I've always loved the French way, the Parisian way. So living in Paris, really suited me.
Alex Standley: Mm. Mm. Mm. ⁓
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: that style, but that whole relaxed kind of look like you've just got out of bed style when really it's taking you a very long time. I think I learned as I grew up that the amount of time it takes frustratingly is much longer. And I do privately and now publicly find it quite exhausting the amount of time it takes me as a woman to get ready for an event versus all of my fellow male leaders.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Hmm. Mmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: You know, so when I go on business trips with either my husband or one of my business partners or whoever, ⁓ God, look at my nails. ⁓ God, blow dry, I a hairdryer. ⁓ how are my eyebrows? You know, and now some people love beauty.
Alex Standley: Yeah Mm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: and love that industry and love that whole ritual. For me, it's like time I don't have and time I never can get back. Equally, I don't wanna show up looking like I've made no effort. I'm not, you every woman's got their own journey and some women let all that go and good luck to them. That's not my vibe. So all I do is I privately get frustrated about the fact that I've gotta book in all these fricking appointments.
Alex Standley: Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: You know, when men can literally roll out the door off their showers. And I think that's, you know, one of the things that plenty of women decide to age disgracefully. And again, like I say, good for them. But I think even we might be surprised that even those who sort of might pretend to be have often got other things they're doing behind the scenes to even get to that point. So I guess I think for me,
Alex Standley: And yeah. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: they raise attention in the time I lose.
Alex Standley: I hear that so often from successful female founders and senior leaders in corporate the same that frustration shows up a lot. Particularly as a female founder, think, as you said with your partner or if you've got men within your business, but also as senior leaders when you're surrounded by men, as you grow and as you climb the ladder, you do end up often being in the minority as a woman because there's a lot more men at a board level. And I think you notice it a lot more because as you said, you're going to events and men are able to just do black tie or it is very simple for men. It's a suit and a tie or it's, you know, there's not much of a consideration. It's maybe the colour of the tie or the colour of the suit. But for women, it's so much more complex than that. And there's so much more thought. And there's you know, overthinking and overwhelm that can go into preparing for what you're going to wear for an event or if you're going on a trip.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: In fact, I don't do any of that. I'm very decisive. think all I'm ever trying to do is really minimize the friction of time. It's hilariously like, you know, first world problems. I've learned that when I travel, you know, always as a founder, you work out all the businesses that are needed that you don't have. I've worked out how hard it is in hotels to get blow dries.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: and nails done and how impossible, even in New York sometimes it is to get nails done at short notice. Yeah, so really silly things that shouldn't matter. I just see them as like friction points. And there was a thing on Instagram the other day that my friend showed me and it was somebody sort of lying in a salad, getting their hair done, getting their feet done, getting all of those grooming things, eyebrows really fast. And then my friend messaged me and said, I assume that was a joke. And I said, yeah, but if that exists.
Alex Standley: I really. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: that's what I need because I'm always just looking to get time back.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned Parisian style. What is it about that kind of French style that is really appealing to you? it the kind of, I know you said about the simplicity and actually, you know, on reflection, there's a lot that goes into that simplicity. Is it the simplicity or is it the, I know the often it's referenced like. the polish or the feeling quite pulled together, but in quite a classic way.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, I think I like all of those things. And having lived there, I also started to understand it more innately. And of course their love of color is only in extremely small doses typically. And that really suits me because I've worked out that having that kind of capsule travel wardrobe, I often, I was looking at your lovely red lipstick, I'll have a tiny flash of red sometimes, a very small flash of color. And then everything else will really work together in a monochrome way and just have a really nice belt potentially or a bit of jewelry.
Alex Standley: Hmm. No, Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, it just really suits me. guess simple elegance with a bit of a twist. It suits me. And my figure is not very English. I've got boobs and a waist and I don't have very big hips. And the French sizing, funny enough, fits me. So I realized I was meant to be.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Amazing. Of course. You also mentioned your relationship with shoes and moving from historically wearing a lot of heels to flats. What has that shift kind of represented for you with your style? Is that again, because you're kind of always on the move and you need something that's quite practical and comfortable.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Hey I like the fact that I think it probably was the COVID shift, wasn't it, for all of us, that flats have become so chic and cool and the obsession with trainers of all sorts. And so that's been incredibly useful to me from a practical point of view, because I love fashion and now you can get some very cool flats. And my kind of everyday thing, there's a whole story behind it, but I'd always coveted Gucci loafers.
Alex Standley: Bye Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: just the real Gucci loafer. And I'm not someone who really cares too much about brands particularly, but I'd coveted those. Anyway, I treated myself to some a few years ago and that was the best thing ever. Cause that's my classic sort of daytime shoot now, you know? And they're so comfortable. It's like slippers, right? So yeah. And I used to do that thing like where I tried every single other loafer.
Alex Standley: Mmm. Hmm. Yeah, that beats.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: because I was like, well, that's a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a pair of shoes. And then I realized why it was smart that I bought those. And so I still do love a heel, but so sparingly. mean, I've got an event next week and I was thinking, right, I'll take them in my bag and I'll wear them.
Alex Standley: Yeah. you Mmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: for the event and then I'll take them off afterwards. But actually as a journalist and a broadcaster, I was very used to that. Even back in the day, way back, I would always, you'd have to do that thing where you might have to get red carpet ready, but you might be in the newsroom all day and then you might be interviewing people at the art gallery, whatever. So I was always very much, how do you take an outfit day to night? So that was sort of in my DNA, I guess.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: So I don't think that's changed drastically. think with social media, whether that's LinkedIn, Instagram, whatever, I think because there's now so much focus on founders and who we are and what we're all about, you have to be more camera ready just to move your brand forward. mean, it's interesting. That's been quite as...
Alex Standley: Hmm. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: a swift transition to that focus on founder, business leader, what we're all about and being very much in the spotlight. So I guess that was an interesting one for me to unpack because for me as Gen X back in the sort of TV days, I was very much television Amanda and then private life Amanda and they were quite different. And I'm obviously using my...
Alex Standley: Hmm. Yeah. ⁓
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: I'm using my third person name ironically there, clearly, just to clarify. But now, of course, with that blend, it was actually, because people kind of say to me, ⁓ it's very easy for you because you were used to the camera, and I was used to the camera, absolutely, but I'm not one to share my personal life. So that.
Alex Standley: Hahaha No.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: psychologically how much one shares versus one doesn't share was a very big shift for me because I grew up in the media but it was all very controlled. So that's an interesting one, know, that the sort of founders like me who've had that history have to unpack.
Alex Standley: you Yeah. Yes, definitely. And I think the idea of having a personal brand is not necessarily something new, but it's something that, as you said, has been given much more of a spotlight. Again, I think part of it is that shift with COVID, where a lot of people were ⁓ founding their own businesses and it brought a lot more flexibility and it opened people's eyes perhaps to the online space. And that drove a lot of creation of personal brands. ⁓ I think with social media, it's become a much bigger focal point because you have to be a representation of your personal brand across all these different touch points and having that congruence and that consistency. And I think I've definitely noticed that from a style perspective, because as you quite rightly said, things became... much more relaxed from a style perspective because of COVID and because of people being at home a lot more and not going out as much. And that then left a lot of women feeling, you know, post the lockdowns and COVID and everything else, questioning how they wanted to show up, you know, post that and how, what that looked like for them because perhaps they were going out. more now and going to more events and meeting people in person a lot more and they had got into that comfort zone or that rut almost of wearing much more relaxed clothing at home and then not really knowing in this kind of new world of style what that looks like for them.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, guess I didn't really notice that personally because I was always working.
Alex Standley: No. Yeah. And have you found that you are, you know, speaking of, you know, having a personal brand and being the representation of that, have you found that you're conscious of what your style is communicating? Cause you're obviously operating in quite a luxury kind of premium space to some degree.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, think luxury is an interesting one to unpack, isn't it? Because modern luxury, I think, is quite different than how it used to be maybe five, 10 years ago in the sense that, you know, overt obsession with money and star signifiers have almost arguably become a bit crass in some circles. And you look at Succession, those of you know the TV series, it's become about the quiet signifiers.
Alex Standley: Mm. Yeah. Hmm ⁓
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And so I think there's an interesting relationship with that now. so luckily, while it's interesting to me, I don't think my point of view has changed. My obsession with labels has never really been an obsession with labels. It's more been an obsession with one thing for a particular reason. And I did an interview recently about how I didn't want any stuff.
Alex Standley: Bye.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And going back to Stahl and Steve Jobs with his polonachs and me wanting more time and not having to always have to my hair done or whatever it is. I just really like streamlining. And that also, I think for me, plays into this conversation. So no, not particularly. I've always been aware that if I'm showing up, I should show up. And I think some of that's Gen X to really stereotype my generation.
Alex Standley: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And I think it's actually been very useful. So if I'm showing up anywhere, I feel like I should show up. And what I mean by that is I feel like I should be present. I feel like even if I don't want to be there, it's my job to at least pretend I do because I've shown up. And I feel like I want to leave that.
Alex Standley: Mm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: place, a better place. And what I mean by that is I'm a great one for sort of energy and positive and negative energy. And we all know sometimes someone walks in a room, energy suckers, whatever we call it. And you sort of, when you leave that room, you don't feel that good about yourself. And I'm very sensitive to that. And so I think leadership, it's also very important. I could be having, I always say as a leader, you could be having the worst freaking day ever. And I've of course had plenty. And
Alex Standley: Mm. Mmm. Hmm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: you know, it's my job to show up and motivate. I'm a leader, right? So, that was television and interviews, whether it was my business now, I guess the arc is always about showing up. So, I feel a responsibility, absolutely, but then I think I should. So, guess I don't see it as anything abnormal. If I'm really honest, I'm always quite disappointed.
Alex Standley: Hmm. Absolutely.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: when people don't show up. And I'll give you an example. My husband's in the film industry and we were unpicking some of the awards speeches the other day. it was the BAFTAs, then it was the BRITs. And what we both said we love about American culture is that when they show up and they've won awards, they have prepared and they will deliver something with a message.
Alex Standley: Hmm. Yeah. Mmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: and you will leave, they will generally 99 times out of 100, they'll walk off the stage and you'll have got something from that speech, whatever they wanted to convey. I feel like as Brits, we're, oh God, oh, I didn't, oh, I didn't think I was gonna win. Oh, I haven't done anything. Oh, I'm a bit drunk. You know, and I think, I don't think that works anymore. We're on a global stage and if you're an award winner, you're on a global stage. And so that's a really, I think, quite...
Alex Standley: Hmm. Hmm. ⁓ Yeah apologetic. Yeah. Bye. ⁓
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: stark example, but for me that's where I think our Britishness, that's one element of our culture that I think we should show up. I think if we're in a room and we're being lucky enough to be given an award, I think we're being grateful and we've got a platform and we should choose to use it in a strategic way, but that's just my opinion obviously.
Alex Standley: Mmm. It's really funny. Yes, I didn't watch all of it, but I was watching some of the Brits with my husband on Saturday night. And I said to him, I think it was the group of the year award. And they went up and she read off her phone. And I said to my husband, obviously, when you're nervous, you don't wanna forget what you're saying and all of that kind of thing. But I said, find that really disappointing in some way because I feel like Yes, she's got a really important message that she's trying to convey, but she's completely lost the connection with the audience and particularly when you're watching it on TV.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Well, that's commonly done now. lot of people are doing the phone speech. And I think exactly as you say, if you want to use it as a prompt, like you would a teleprompter, if you're looking at... And also, unfortunately, some of them aren't very confident readers in that moment because they will be overwhelmed. And so if you're not a confident reader and you're looking at your phone and you're not connected with the audience, it's a recipe for disaster. And talking about this, there's a musician called Mark Ronson who...
Alex Standley: Mm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: If people haven't watched The Brits, it's still on TV. I think it's gonna be for some time. I mean, he's not only an incredible global musician and he did an amazing retrospective of his work, but he gave what I thought was the perfect speech. It wasn't perfect because he stumbled, but it was an emotional, from the heart speech. And that in contrast, and that, I guess, as we're saying, that's about a responsibility to show up.
Alex Standley: Hmm. Hmm. Real.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: would argue, however bad my day is. I'm living in 2026, there's all kinds of horrendous things going on in the world. The sun is shining and I'm lucky enough to run a global brand. However bad my life is, you know. So yeah, I think that that personal responsibility for showing up, I think it's important. And I think sometimes we mistake authenticity.
Alex Standley: Hmm. Mm. Hmm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: For just not really showing up and giving a crap. And I think that's not really the same thing, you know.
Alex Standley: Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's almost an excuse ⁓ this whole idea of like, you know, ⁓ be yourself. Just, you know, ⁓ fine to show up however you want to ⁓ you do you is the kind of narrative. ⁓ I think there's much to unpack with that because style often ⁓ leads people ⁓ not you know, their brand and who they truly are. It's kind of like this excuse almost to be a bit lazy and to not show up in a certain way. And I think it's more damaging than we realize for ourselves, nevermind what you're saying about showing up for other people. Because there's so much science behind the fact that the way that we dress and the way that we kind of hold ourselves and put ourselves together has a direct impact.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And I straightened my back when you said that, Yes.
Alex Standley: Well, I feel like I'm still hunching a little bit. But it has a direct impact on our behaviour and the way that we present ourselves and our performance. So although we might feel like, know, style and fashion and everything is quite frivolous, actually, it does directly impact our performance and the way that we carry ourselves and the way that we're received. So I think the more that we can align that and be truly authentic, not just a bit of a buzzword of you do you. ⁓ It's so much more powerful and it really can change the impact that we have. if you are, particularly if you are a founder who's ⁓ disrupting an industry or wanting to create a really big impact, ⁓ aligning that with the way that you're showing up, I think is really, really important.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, I think that's very interesting what you're saying about fashion. And I think for a long time, as you say, people used to dismiss it and actually bringing men back into the conversation. What I think is very interesting about having a teenage son and the way that male fashion has changed is some good, some bad. There's a lot more pressure actually on the younger male generation to look a certain way. But the good thing about that is not just that it's gonna get harder for them. That's obviously not a great thing.
Alex Standley: Hmm. Mm. Mm. ⁓ Yeah
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: But it's the fact that at all of the awards ceremonies now, you're actually seeing men start to express themselves through fashion, particularly the younger ones, which I just think is fantastic.
Alex Standley: Mmm. Yes, definitely. loved, I actually shared on my Instagram, Harry Styles. I mean, he obviously has a stylist and has access to, I think he was wearing Chanel ⁓ on the night, which tells you a lot, but I love that there are kind of iconic male figures that are leading the way in that sense as well, because it gives, I don't know, more inspiration for that next generation coming through. So it's not just, know, I don't know, jeans and a t-shirt or just a generic suit. It's actually bringing a bit more personality into the way that you're showing up.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, I agree. It's lovely.
Alex Standley: So talking about, you know, being disruptive and, you know, you've obviously completely changed the industry from the inside out. What would you, what advice would you give to other female founders or even women who are changing things from the inside within a corporate role about kind of holding your nerve when you're ahead of the curve? Cause that's clearly where you have been on your journey with this business.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: think going back to that getting comfortable being uncomfortable phrase is a relevant motto really. think as a journalist you get used to provocation. I was always a polite provocateur. I used to, when I was early days in business, have a polite disruptors club. So I would always be the one with the silk, what is it, silk glove. I would, my tough questions were always framed politely. That was just my style.
Alex Standley: Hmm. No.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: So I think that to be brave in business and do something different, you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable because if you're going to do something different, other people won't like it. That's a literal fact because they will be provoked by it. They will have a reaction. You have to be strong enough in yourself and your belief.
Alex Standley: you Yeah. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: to not let that change your course. So I think that's a lot really about your psyche and your character. And I remember before I founded a business, one of my ⁓ investors, sort of partner friends said to me, it's all about the founder.
Alex Standley: Mm. Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And I said, ⁓ hold on a second. Yes, I get that it's mostly about the founder, their personality, I get that, but surely if they've got a really bad business idea. And he said to me, no, he said, if there's a really strong founder with a bad business idea or an average founder with an incredible business idea, you always back. the person, founder with the bad business idea. And now you'll hear that a lot when you dig into investment and founders. And now as a founder, I actually understand it. And what I mean by that is I haven't even necessarily unpacked my own personality to know if I was suited to be a founder. Now I can, now I'm further on the journey and I know how obsessional and focused and crazy I am.
Alex Standley: Interesting. Mm. Hmm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: And now I know why everybody says those qualities are important. And I don't think I would have truly understood that until I'd actually done it myself. And now, if and when I was investing, I've only ever done small investments because I haven't got much money, but when I do, I understand now about backing that person. Obviously the team's important, but just in the early stages. And Sue, to answer your question,
Alex Standley: you Yeah Will I?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: It's really about the psyche of that person and how comfortable they're going to be being provocative. And I think that we probably aren't always comfortable enough asking ourselves that question. And I think as Brits... culturally, because I work a lot in America and I've been unpacking this a lot as to why we don't scale really successful businesses in this country compared with Americans. And I'm starting to recognize a lot to do with our typical psyche because it's wonderful to be self-deprecating. It's my favorite quality when it comes to humor. And I don't want to take myself too seriously. If you want to take the mickey out of me, that's fine. But when it comes to business,
Alex Standley: ⁓ Mm. you Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: that's not a helpful quality. know, ⁓ I'm just doing my little thing. ⁓ I'm just selling a few bottles. ⁓ I'm just doing... This dismissive thing that we do to ourselves as a culture is diametrically opposed to big business growth. So I think if you are coming out of the corporate world and you're wanting to do something different...
Alex Standley: time. Mmm. ⁓ Hmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: You have to ask yourself how prepared you are to be challenged and judged and still have the self-confidence and belief to keep going. And I hadn't really realized that those aren't typical qualities.
Alex Standley: Yeah. I think ⁓ there's so much to unpack from what you've just said, but I think one of the first things is that ⁓ being a founder, think it, I always describe it as personal development on crack because it's kind of like you have to expose yourself to everything and it's the evolution is so much faster and the learning curve is so much faster. And I think you're, if you're not fully invested and ⁓ fully able to show up for yourself and for your brand, very quickly there will be that friction point. But also to your point around investing in a fantastic founder who has an amazing personality. People do buy from people and I think that that's often something that we underestimate. think perhaps partly because we've been sold in the kind of online space that anybody can start a business and it's the easiest that it's ever been and all of those kind of narratives that are coming through. And I think that kind of almost downplays how challenging it is to, not to found a business, but to grow it and to scale it as you've just said.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Keep going.
Alex Standley: Yeah, because it takes a lot of grit and a lot of resilience and it challenges every single, you know, part of who you are. And I think it's hugely rewarding from that point of view as well. But obviously it can be extremely challenging at the same time. ⁓ And I definitely see within the work that I do the huge disparity between the US and the UK when it comes to ⁓ investing in yourself ⁓ as a person as well and that personal development. think in the US, they're very used to investing in themselves and kind of putting themselves forward and putting themselves first. Whereas it's a very British thing to kind of, as you said, be quite self-deprecating and kind of, you know, we're not so used to investing time and money into ourselves. And I think that is a narrative that can be negative when you are at the forefront of your own brand because it requires a lot of investment, not just in money, but in time as well, ⁓ and to really invest in yourself and believe in yourself and back yourself. And I think we do struggle with that as Brits.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Yeah, I think that's probably the key reason that we don't scale like America, it's that psyche piece. And that's why I've got this... project I'm running with teenagers with Wellington College that we're planning to scale up because I thought, well, I talk a lot about it, but I haven't done any about it. And it's been transformative. And I realized we've got to get to kids earlier because by the time my son's 18 and by the time they're 18, they've got, and because of tech, they've got so many fixed ideas at 18. We've got to reach kids earlier in just, and because of my philosophy, which I think is hard to argue with, that so many kids
Alex Standley: Hmm. Yeah. and
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: it's all about perfection in the education system. So you've got that really dramatic juxtaposition where their whole future life will be built on some degree of entrepreneurship in the sense whether they found or don't found, their lives will always be changing because of the way AI is going. So we've got to get them used to change, not perfect brains.
Alex Standley: Mm. Hmm. Yeah. Definitely. Well, I think I see, I mean, my daughter is still relatively young. She's turning seven soon and I have seen, I've got increasingly frustrated with the school system, seeing her going through it because I don't know, I think I was quite academic. I didn't, although I'm very creative, I perhaps didn't feel the same friction that I'm seeing. for her and maybe because I am now in this space where I've seen the light and I'm doing something alternative. It really frustrates me that all of the creativity gets kind of, I don't know, just killed out of them because everything is about being academic. and it's very much about, you know, English, maths and...
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Perfect.
Alex Standley: reading for her at this particular age. And we get some lovely comments about how creative she is and how in their free time she's made these bags out of paper for people and she's giving them to everybody. And it's creative how she's done it, but also very logical from a proportion point of view and the way that it actually works and all of this kind of thing. ⁓
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Enough. Enough.
Alex Standley: And it's great that her teacher has shared that with us, but the main premise of any discussion is always, well, she's perhaps behind on this or she's not up to the level that she needs to be on this. And I just get so frustrated with it because I think we don't all need to fit into this mold of being perfect at maths, English and science, because we're not all going to go into careers that that need those particular skills, you know.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Well, also, AI was long ago better than me at maths and science and probably English, even though that's my subject. So, I mean, therein lies the irony, right? I think the poor education system is so far from... We've got such fast acceleration with everything that's going on that, I mean, there's no hope of it catching up, I suppose, fast enough.
Alex Standley: Well, exactly. Hmm. Hmm. No, no, definitely. And I think, as you said, I think it needs to be at that young age that, you know, at the age my daughter is, that they're being exposed to different ideas and being, I mean, they do do work around having a growth mindset, which I think is definitely, I didn't have that when I was at primary school. So I think that has definitely moved forward. But I think there's so much more that we could do to nurture. the more kind of vocational and creative sides that will create, you know, new industries, new ideas and new innovations. So I love that you're supporting that as well.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: of race. And we're need those more than ever, aren't we? Yeah. Because I think the only thing AI won't be better, certainly in our lifetime at potentially, is some of those creative pieces. So I guess that's absolutely where we could...
Alex Standley: Yeah, absolutely. No. Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much. I would love to ask you three final quickfire questions, which are just a little bit of fun about your style and your wardrobe. So can you tell me what is the one item of clothing in your wardrobe that you love the most and why?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: ⁓ so I've got a Sandro silk bomber jacket with a tiger on the back. And I got that second hand, so re-worn. And what I love most is it's kind of fierce, but it's also kind of chic and it's cool at the same time. So it hits all of those touch points.
Alex Standley: Amazing. Yeah. I love that. I love that it, I mean, I love Sandro is such a brilliant, again, Parisian brand. But I think there's something about fabrics as well and, you know, it being silk and the way that that makes you feel. think there's a real psychology behind that as well. And if we opened your wardrobe right now, what would we find way too much of?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: all black unapologetically it goes with everything
Alex Standley: Yeah, well it's very chic as well. ⁓ What is an outfit or trend that you look back and think, I really regret that and why?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: I'm lost. I once had a perm. That was a disaster. For those of you who don't know what that is, I don't know, do the kids know? It's when your hair's all curled, but not in a good way. For me, at least.
Alex Standley: Wow. I don't know. Very 80s. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I think, you know, we could probably talk for many hours more about identity and confidence and leadership and just redefining what the future looks like. For anyone listening who wants an option that is, you know, elevated and
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: Thank you.
Alex Standley: celebratory but non-alcoholic, where can they find you?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: So best place is our website, which is naughtyaf.com and it's naughty with an O instead of an A. Play on words.
Alex Standley: Amazing, and is there anything that you wanted to share with people that are listening in terms of anything that you've got coming up, events or anything new that you're launching?
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: ⁓ well, we've always got stuff going on. I think the best way is via our Instagram, which is at Naughty AF, which I've popped up on screen. So that's again, Naughty with an O. There's always so much happening. We move at the speed of light at Naughty HQ. So yeah, we've got the mini bottles are our latest, some single serve they've recently launched. And that's a lovely thing. You can just have one with a look with a straw. And that's nice just to.
Alex Standley: Love that. Mmm.
Amanda Thomson @noughtyaf: feel a bit cool or have your single serve glass, you know, with your nice coupe and you can pour that in. So I think the minis are the latest innovation we've brought to the table.
Alex Standley: I love that, it was great for travel as well if you're wanting to have that alternative. Amazing, thank you so much. If this episode resonated with you, please do share it with someone navigating their own evolution as well. And I will see you again next week.