Kevin Whitsell: Welcome everybody to A Silent War Within. As always, we have our guest, Michaela. Michaela, how are you doing today?
Kevin: You've been listening to A Silent War Within. If this episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with someone who needs to hear it. Remember, you're not alone and your well-being matters. It's time to end this silent war.
Makayla davidson: Kevin, I'm doing lovely. It's a beautiful day in Maine here.
Kevin Whitsell: It is also a beautiful day in Memphis, Tennessee. So we are super excited. Well, just outside of Memphis. I'm now in Olive Branch, Mississippi. That's our new recording ⁓ studio. We're going to call it D &W Studios. For sure. So today we've got somebody that reached out ⁓ a little ago, probably five, six months ago, ⁓ and offered as a guest. ⁓
Michael Sugrue: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: And once we pursued that path, we found out that he had a book coming out. I bought the book, read the book, absolutely awesome book. Michael Sugru, and guy had ⁓ such story to tell in this book. If you have not went out purchased Relentless Courage, it's probably one of the better books. ⁓ that i've ever read about all the mental health things and some of the things that we deal with it's very interesting book and we'll get into why it's so interesting in a little bit but i want to jump right into it so michael tell us about well first a little bit about yourself i want to know about who michael is where you come from what's your story
Michael Sugrue: So I'm originally from the San Francisco Bay Area, which is actually where I'm back now. I ended up being in the military and living all over the world, but my interest in the military and law enforcement actually started all the way back in childhood. Mainly because of my stepfather, he raised me. He was my hero. He was in law enforcement. And I knew at a very young age that this was my path. things changed. Initially, I was going to go into federal law enforcement. And I knew to do that, I had to have a college degree and I had to some work experience. So I looked into the different services and I ended up getting a full scholarship through the Air Force ROTC program, majored in criminal justice. graduated in 98 from California State University and I went straight into the Air Force as a second lieutenant in security forces. And that's basically military police, anti-terrorism, force protection, air-based ground defense, nuclear security, you name it, a whole bunch of cool stuff. My original plan was to stay in just four years, but a lot of things happened. Mainly when I was in Germany, 9-11 happened. And a few months after that, I found myself in the Middle East. So I ended up staying in six and a half years, got stationed back in California at Travis Air Force Base, which is close to where I live now. ⁓ got out of the air force as a captain and I went straight into civilian law enforcement in the San Francisco Bay area for the Walnut Creek police department in 2004. when I was there, served over 14 years, bunch of different assignments from patrol officer. field training officer, detective. I was undercover on a state drug task force, a PIO and a patrol sergeant. a lot of things happened during all of that time, which I go into great detail in the book. But my story starts with a very traumatic incident that happened as a brand new patrol sergeant. And that incident really just changed everything. It changed my path, my trajectory. It led me down a very dark tunnel ⁓ to point where I didn't want to be here anymore. And it got so bad, I was purposely trying to get killed in the line of duty. And so the reason why I'm here today is to shed light on the realities of the impact of being a first responder or a military member and what it does to us, loved ones, our family members. But I'm living proof that no matter how dark it gets, no matter how bad it gets, you can come out the other side. And now I'm living a whole new life that is just freaking phenomenal. So I'm honored to be here. Again, I hope people that watch this and listen to this that it's gonna resonate with them. And something I say here today, it may help them or it may help somebody they love.
Kevin Whitsell: So you had a critical incident in 2012, is that correct?
Michael Sugrue: That's correct. The end of 2012, I was a brand new patrol sergeant. I had just been promoted and I was involved in a fatal officer involved shooting. I won't go into a lot of detail about it. I do so in the book. to make a long story short, basically there was a guy armed with a huge knife that had broken into a condominium and was trying to kill a couple that was barricaded inside their bedroom. And I was first on scene. Another officer showed up right behind me. We ended up confronting this individual. He was at the top of the stairs. We were at the bottom of the stairs and he ended up trying to kill us with that knife. And unfortunately, we had to take his life not only to save our own lives, but the lives of that couple that was barricaded inside their bedroom. And so that is the incident that I call my breaking point or my tipping point because I don't want people to think that that shooting or that incident alone you know, led to post-traumatic stress or caused this huge downfall. But the reality is, as first responders, and in my case, I had been exposed to hundreds and hundreds of critical incidents before that, but I never talked about them. I never processed them. I just stuffed them all inside. And so particular incident on that night, that shooting, that really is what broke me. It just, I lost that feeling of invincibility in literally a second. It was just taken away.
Kevin Whitsell: Talk about the feeling after that incident in 2012, because I think one of the things that I gathered from the book was that you were a guy of pretty high standards. Like you were this, though you had not become a high-ranking police officer yet, were Air guy. You had this level of respect and this level of dignity that you kind of lived by. And then what did that incident in 2012 do to some of those really built-in morals you kept?
Michael Sugrue: I've always been a hard charger. I mean, literally since being a child. I always excelled at pretty much everything I did. And something that I didn't mention earlier was I was a phoenix raven in the Air Force. And that's a very specialized subset of security forces members. when I came into the civilian law enforcement side, I had been a captain. I had supervised hundreds of people. I'd had command level positions. Lots of experience all over the world from the jungles of South America to all over Europe to the Middle East and even when I hit the streets as a filling officer, I was extremely proactive. I always worked the graveyard shifts. I was making on average two arrests a night, know, stopping like 20 vehicles, siding like 10 to 13 people a night. And my whole goal was getting guns and drugs off the streets to lead to that undercover career, which was my dream. It was my goal. And so up until that point, I would say that my career both in the military and civilian law enforcement were off the charts. Like everything that I wanted was falling into place. My life, so I thought, was perfect at that time. I had just bought my dream house. I was happily married. I had a beautiful two-year-old daughter. And I wanted to be chief of police someday. And I knew that... Every step that I was doing was preparing me eventually for that position or for that eventual assignment. And so when that incident happened, it led me to isolation. It led me to starting to drink too much. I didn't want to be around other people. I didn't want to socialize. I had not ever established a healthy communication at home, you know, talking about the job or getting these things off my chest. I didn't believe in counselors or therapists, psychiatrists, like none of that stuff. I literally live by, know what, just suck it up. We don't know this people. It doesn't bother us. not going to penetrate our armor. And just going to go on with my, my happy life. And in reality, you know, all these incidents year over year from child deaths to suicides, to homicides, even natural deaths, domestic violence, abuse, sexual assault cases. all these things are slowly taking a toll inside. And I'm not addressing a single one of them. I'm not processing them. I'm just telling myself that they're just gonna magically go away. And so when the shooting happened, it's like all these things just started pouring out. And again, I didn't turn to those healthy coping mechanisms because I didn't believe in those. You our department had at that time, Very progressive peer support program. We had a contracted therapist who was culturally competent. But again, nobody uses those resources back then. I certainly did. I didn't trust them. I thought that, you know, asking for help or even talking about these things or showing emotion would be weakness that'd be looked down upon, that'd be outcasted. And so, ⁓ know, it worked for a while. I would say I did well. I mean, I was operational when I put that badge and uniform on. I got the job done. But when I was at home and behind the scenes, everything in my life was literally falling apart the point where, you know, a few months later, my marriage was over. I'm fighting for ⁓ of my daughter. ⁓ starting to have health issues. I'm way too much. And again, I'm not dealing with these things in a positive or healthy manner. And one thing I didn't mention was even though shooting was deemed to be justified, You know, we saved the couple that was upstairs in that condominium. I mean, this guy was literally, the door was coming off the hinges as this guy was stabbing through their bedroom door with this huge Michael Myers sized knife from the movie Halloween. We've all seen that. ⁓ know, there's no doubt that we saved their lives, but the family sued us immediately and I had to endure a four year federal lawsuit. And so this incident that I wanted to forget, I had to remember every finite detail. because this federal lawsuit was looming over our head. And eventually four years later, it actually went to trial. I was defendant in San Francisco in federal court literally doing my job and saving lives. ⁓ I had endured two week trial, just hearing all these crazy theories by the attorneys the family hired, that we planted evidence that we were cold blooded killers, that this guy was never a threat. mean, just literally just, it took a toll. I mean, it absolutely devastated. And I mentioned earlier, it got so bad to the point where I put my officer safety and my tactics aside, my judgment, and I was purposely trying to insert myself into very dangerous situations at work, hoping a bad guy killed me. So opposite of suicide by cop, I was hoping for suicide by bad guy. And that's literally how bad and how dark it got for me.
Makayla davidson: I will say that just you showing your vulnerability in this moment I know that even how far it's been from 2012 talking about this I know that it still probably brings up feelings for you. You know that's any person who's in the public eye is the worst ⁓ is going to court or the worst fear is going to court. So you're always like on edge if something goes wrong I'm gonna get sued you know malpractice things like that in the nursing paramedic first responder world. ⁓ So you're sitting in court, four years later, they're talking to you like you're this criminal, right? Did that bring back some biological trauma of the moment when it happened?
Michael Sugrue: ⁓ absolutely. And what I didn't mention yet, it's in the book and I talk about it, but the guy that tried to kill me had an identical twin brother and he was in the courtroom sitting behind me during that two weeks. So, you know, all day, every day, face, this identical face that I've had in my nightmares, that still have in my nightmares from time to time is literally, you know, behind me in the courtroom. And when the court would break for lunch or restaurant breaks and whatnot, he would be in the hallway, the family members of the guy that I killed would be in the hallway, literally staring me down, mumbling, murder under their breath, and giving me the death stare. And I mean, you just can't even put into words the kind of pressure that that creates. And to sit there, like I said, in the defendant chair where the criminal would be, ⁓
Makayla davidson: Right.
Michael Sugrue: and literally having everything on the line, having this jury staring at you for two weeks, analyzing every single movement, every single facial expression, everything you say, picking and pulling apart, everything you did years later when literally I had split seconds to make life-saving decisions and now they're taking two weeks and numerous hours to go through everything, know, line by line and word for word, and it devastated me. I mean, literally devastated me and it brought everything back. I mean, it brought it right to the surface and it was literally right there in front of me in the courtroom the entire time.
Makayla davidson: Yeah. And also need to talk about the betrayal in leadership. You know, we talked about like your integrity questioned or your ethics, right? And then when you showed empathy, you had your probation extended. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Michael Sugrue: Yeah, so before the federal case in our county, we had what was called a coroner's inquest. And so the shooting happened the very end of December 2012. And in August 2013, they had a coroner's inquest. And those are held in our county anytime that somebody is killed or they die and law enforcement's present. like as an example, in a jail setting, somebody hangs themselves or an obvious suicide by cop or maybe a car chase or pursuit that ends in a fatality in my case, a shooting. So there's a judge, there's a jury, ⁓ it's to the public. Obviously everything's recorded. And in this case, the courtroom was packed. There was reporters there, people from my investigations bureau, the family members of the guy that I killed literally sitting in the front row just staring at me. I brought my wife at the time because we're having ⁓ Marital issues and I hadn't really talked to her about that incident. I was hoping if she heard it herself Maybe she'd understand why I was being so distant and why I was being such a jerk and so in this court proceeding I finally got called up to testify and I've been in court like most officers hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of times for traffic court Criminal court. I was the drug expert for the county so I'd get called on other people's cases and going to court for me was always just part of the job. You go in there, you answer the questions, you're wearing your suit, you're professional, and you knock it out, you get it done. Well, in this case, when the judge, when I got to the part where the guy is coming down the stairwell with a knife, I literally just lost it. I started bawling and crying in the courtroom in front of everybody. And I was literally just in shock. I couldn't believe it. I was so embarrassed. I was so worried what people would think because they saw me crying. And I remember I just wanted to run out of that courtroom. I was hoping everybody would just forget about it. And so when I got done testifying, I ranced the bathroom with splashing water in my face, telling myself, you know, get your shit together, get back in there, your officer stuff to testify. And I did. The officers testified. They did great. And a couple of weeks later, we actually got the best possible finding that you could get with this coroner's inquest. Now, mind you, I'm on probation because in our department when you get promoted you're on probation for a year. So I got promoted in November of 2012 and now we're talking about August 2013. So literally there's three months left on my probation. Also what I didn't mention was that the entire time I had been with my agency there had not been a single officer involved shooting. So imagine you're a brand new sergeant, you have one, you save lives, none of your officers are hurt. you get cleared by the DA, you get the best possible finding in the corners in Quest. And one of my captains, when we got this finding, called me into the office and I thought, oh, this is gonna be good. I'm gonna get accolades, they're gonna tell me what a great job I did. And when I went in there, there was a captain, a couple of lieutenants, and you could tell they were very serious. They told me to close the door and have a seat. And as soon as I sat down, this is where, for me, it was an absolutely pivotal moment because... couple things happened in that room. And the first thing that happened was the genuineness of my emotions during that coroner's inquest was called into question, both directly and indirectly. And it was said and inferred that I was acting or putting on a show for the jury. But again, I'm a former military guy. I don't question authority. I'm just sitting there. taking it. I'm not talking back. leadership ability got called into question. And at this point, we have a new police chief. So when my shooting happened, we had a different chief. And that was the chief that promoted me. I loved that chief. He was a great leader. arrived at the scene of the shooting, drove me back to the department. But months later, he had retired and this new chief who I didn't know came in. And that's when they decided they were gonna extend my probation indefinitely, which put my promotion in jeopardy. And I had never experienced like that anything my entire life. I mean, not in the military, not in civilian law enforcement. I'd never heard of a supervisor having their probation extended. And this is where I should have asked for help. This is where I should have opened up discussed how my life was literally falling apart. My marriage was over. Like literally I'm just losing everything. But I didn't do that. I decided to suck it up. I made a conscious decision to never show emotion again, to never show weakness, to prove them wrong, and to get through my probation. And I did that. And I became a real asshole at work. I became unapproachable. didn't want to come to me and talk to me if they had their own issues. I lost sight of empathy and sympathy. I mean, I literally just had this ⁓ up where I was never gonna show ⁓ any kind of emotion, any kind of empathy. And like I said, that's where I failed as a leader because it got to the point where when my people came to me with their own issues, I remember just telling myself that that doesn't sound like an issue to me. Like you really have no idea what it means to have issues. When in reality, you know, they were going through their own things. I just couldn't see it. I couldn't deal with it because if I did, it was gonna open everything back up and put everything in jeopardy for me.
Makayla davidson: And ⁓ we talked about how when you were in court, they sit there and they look at you like you're a criminal, right? And this is before you had body cams, right? So you couldn't let's play the tapes. Let's see how this all went down, right? You had of that on your side. So your partner's testimony or the guy that showed up right behind you was all that you were pretty much banking on, ⁓
Michael Sugrue: Yes. Correct. Well, there was actually, so in the shooting, was myself and a female officer that arrived first on scene. And then while the guy was still at the top of the stairs, another male and another female officer arrived and saw the commune. So there was actually four of us involved. was four officers that fired their weapons, but of the officers, the two female officers were not given qualified immunity. Excuse me, sorry. So they were only involved in the first volume of shots. and we were given qualified immunity for that first volley of shots. there was a second volley of shots when the guy is at the bottom of the stairs and only myself and that other male officer were involved in that. And that's where the fatal shots were fired. And so because of that, he and I were the only ones that were on federal trial. The two other officers became actual witnesses, not defendants, if that makes sense.
Makayla davidson: got you. So how does that feel when you're going through the court and your body so bad wants to move on from this incident but your mind is having to replay all of this second by second by second incidents during the courtroom?
Michael Sugrue: I mean, it's indescribable. And like I said, the process leading up to the trial, we had depositions almost every year. And that's where we'd be in a tiny conference room. They had like four or five attorneys. They had a ⁓ video camera, a court reporter. And the father of the guy that I killed was sitting directly across the table from me at every single deposition. And they've got this camera just pointed at your face and they're drilling you for eight hours. And we would have one. about once a year because we all were involved and we had to be there for everybody's deposition. So again, I'm just reliving this over and over and over. And the thing was is during this process, I kind of blamed everything on this trial that was looming over my head. And so I told myself that, you know what, as long as I can get through this trial when it's finally done, as long as we prevail, like all my problems will magically go away. And in reality, that didn't happen. My problems got much, much worse. fact, just sitting there for those two weeks, it made me start to second guess myself. I mean, just looking back, I no other choice. I had no other options. But just being in that mindset, being in that courtroom for two weeks and hearing these crazy hired guns for the other side, these quote unquote expert witnesses with all these outlandish theories, I started saying, you what if I would have paused here? What if I would have done this here? And we call that magical thinking because none of that's reality. But again, it started to put doubt into my mind and it just really increased the night terrors and the nightmares and it increased all those horrific symptoms of anxiety, depression, rage that I was constantly feeling.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, and I think that part of this is the fact that no matter if it's a critical incident, the size of yours where it's this long drawn out thing or whether it's a paramedic that has a bad call or fill in the blank, whatever first responder line of duty that you're in, when you have a critical incident, it really does affect you in very similar ways biologically. So when you get into that and you start to feel that and you're not accustomed to it, like what you're describing, driving really screams to me like this is somebody that that is experiencing this huge critical incident for maybe the first time maybe it's not registering with you. But when did when did you start the because I think we all do this. I think we all start this I'm fine narrative and you as people ask us ⁓ man how are you we're going to answer with I'm fine. When did I'm fine become not so fine at home. When did it begin to bleed over into your home life.
Michael Sugrue: I mean, honestly, immediately, I mean, I would say it was gradual, but it was the day I came home from that shooting. I mean, it started right there and, know, it was gradual. But there was already issues at home because like I said, I didn't establish that healthy communication where I could rely on my spouse at the time and communicate in a healthy way about the horrible things I was going through and seeing at work and getting it off my chest. Instead, I would come home pissed off and she'd be walking around eggshells around me, not knowing, thinking that it was her, something she did, not realizing because I saw some kid get run over in a crosswalk and literally die in front of me at work. Those are things I didn't talk about. And again, I'm not advocating for talking about that stuff in graphic details, but what I'm telling people is don't make the mistake that I did and wait till the huge critical incident because it might be too late by then. You know, you're going to have all these other critical incidents before then. And so really from day one on the job, you should establish this healthy communication and rapport at home, whether it's with a spouse, a loved one, a clergy member, a therapist, I mean, a chaplain, somebody that you you trust in your life, but I didn't have that with anybody. You know, I literally just kept everything inside. And so I tried self-medicating with alcohol and that only makes things much, worse. You know, also self-medicated by isolation and that just increases the depression and anxiety. And, and again, it just creates that divide and that division. So, you know, I don't want people to think that the shooting happened the next day. I'm just a total mess because it wasn't like that. And it's different for everybody. I would say that I immediately noted something different after that shooting. Like I said, for me, that feeling of invincibility, that feeling of being Superman, my entire military career, my time undercover on a state drug task force doing high risk entries multiple times a day, for whatever reason, it was just taken away from me in that instant. And it wasn't just because, because there's other situations where I could have died. or it could have been shot or this could have happened. I pulled out my gun hundreds of times before that. But this incident, for whatever reason, like I said, and I look at it like a jar, like my jar was filling up and filling up and filling up, and this incident caused my jar to kind of start to overflow. And that's what I want people to understand is that these incidents affect everybody differently, and it's not always gonna be the most obvious incident that's gonna break you or push you over the edge. And a lot of times too, what you have going on in your own personal life, or even things that happened in childhood, and we haven't gotten to childhood trauma yet, but all those things impact on how different critical incidents affect us. And even in my shooting, everybody was affected differently. I also know everybody had different roles. know, two people in the shooting didn't hit the guy at all. None of their rounds hit him. ⁓ So... In reality, they don't have to live with the fact that they took his life. But maybe they have guilt because they didn't hit the guy. Or was another guy that it was his beat, his call, but he was at home on break and he was the last one to arrive on scene. And when he arrived on scene, it was already over. The shots had already been fired. And so he's probably got some guilt and things that he's dealing with. But again, want people to know, especially supervisors, to know that ⁓ these incidents will affect people in different ways. And it's not always obvious on who's gonna be affected the most. And some people may be fine or they may think they're fine. ⁓ really depends, we're all different. But I will tell you, like I mentioned before, ⁓ had been exposed to hundreds and hundreds of critical incidents before that night. And I had seen just horrific, horrific things throughout my career. But again, for me, this was the tipping point. This was the breaking point.
Kevin Whitsell: So I think you mentioned something interesting that we've seen really amongst, I would say, 90 % of our guests. You mentioned childhood trauma. And I think that what you find, and especially the first responder community, regardless of what area you serve in, there is a typical trend that most of us have some type of childhood trauma. So you don't have to go into graphic detail, of course. But I want to hear some of the things that maybe pushed you into the law enforcement career from your childhood, and especially that childhood trauma, because I think that's a trend that we see.
Michael Sugrue: Yeah, you know, I didn't believe in this. was denial of this for years, but I do absolutely agree with you. And I do think that not all, but I think a lot of first responders have some form of childhood trauma. And again, it can be very minor. It can like a parent who is not expressive of how they feel. They're not affectionate. Maybe they're working the time to provide. They do love you. Or it could be like in my case, my biological father was an alcoholic and a drug addict. in some cases, it could be on the severe end of the spectrum and be physical abuse or sexual abuse. But the point is that these early childhood experiences, they make us very resilient. We overcome adversity, we become we, you know, it draws us. to this career of being caretakers, of wanting to help other people. the sad thing is though, is that we never deal with that childhood trauma. We stuff it away, we overcome it, and we become these big bad asses, whether we're paramedics, firefighters, police officers, military members, we've got the badge, the uniform. And so now, not ever going back there. We're not thinking about that. We're not gonna be that vulnerable weak kid anymore. big, badass, strong warriors now. And the thing is, is that at some point, that childhood trauma is gonna rear its ugly head. And in my case, and I didn't connect these dots till years later, but I had abandonment issues because of my biological father was an addict and alcoholic. issues where he just wouldn't show up to things. He wasn't reliable. He obviously drunk or on drugs. and I was trying to be his caretaker and doing all these things. And so fast forward, I find this new blue family, law enforcement, they love me, they've got my back. Until it gets to that point, what I call administrative betrayal or institutional betrayal, where they turn their back on us. Well, in my case, that's what brought back that unresolved abandonment issues. Because now I have my new family, my blue family. and they're literally abandoning me when I need them most. And so in many cases, and in my case, you'll find that people have multiple layers of trauma. They'll have the childhood trauma, and then they'll have the battlefield trauma or the street trauma. And then on top of that, you have your moral injury or your administrative betrayal or your institutional betrayal. And these things are all intertwined, they're all connected, but you do have to deal with them individually. And you do have to connect the dots at some point. And so for me, when I finally started my recovery process for post-traumatic stress, I never thought about childhood trauma. I never brought it up. I never talked about it with therapists. I didn't talk about it when I went to the West Coast post-trauma retreat because literally I had forgotten about it. And I had a great mother, had a great stepfather, I had a good upbringing, I went to good schools. I mean, I don't want people to think I had this horrible childhood because I didn't. I had a great life, I had a great childhood. there was issues that were lingering in the background that I literally had forgotten about. And I didn't realize till years of recovery work of what that impact was. And I think it's important to people to realize that now as they're watching this, as they're listening to it, think back and say, did this job, ⁓ know, I pick it or did it actually pick me? And in most cases, this job picks you. the most ironic part about all of that, it makes us very, very good at what we do. I would say that most responders with some form of childhood trauma are phenomenal, phenomenal first responders that put their entire heart and soul into it every single day, putting their lives on the line, trying to help every single that they can. And the public doesn't see that. They don't realize that we are willing go out every single day put our lives on the line for complete strangers because we want to help people we want to save people.
Kevin Whitsell: So in all of this and your experience in all this, when was this wake up call? Because I think there was a point in the book you had a friend that took his own life and that was kind of seeing his battle and his struggle was kind of what made you go, wait a minute, I'm in kind of the same place.
Michael Sugrue: Well, he didn't take his life, but he tried to take his life. So this happened basically about a month and a half after that federal trial ended. So the federal trial ended in September of 2016. We prevailed. And a week after Thanksgiving or so, I was on duty. I was a day shift patrol sergeant getting ready to go home and a suicide in progress comes out. And I didn't recognize the address at first, but it turned out to be my best friend John. John was a Vietnam veteran, he was an Army MP, but he was also a 35 year reserve officer with my department. He had retired a few years earlier, but we were partners. He would ride together with me all the time. And he was going through some personal things where he'd lost his relationship of decades. He didn't have kids, but his dogs both died in a short timeframe. And you he never talked about PTSI or PTSD or the Vietnam War. And I didn't realize how much he was struggling. But it got so bad that he did try to take his own life. And I remember I got to the trauma center just as the ambulance brought him in and he had slipped both wrists. He had stabbed himself in the torso multiple times, OD'd on multiple prescription medications. And he was like 70 when this happened. And I remember having like 30 seconds with him before they rushed him off to emergency surgery. And I remember just sitting there in the hospital for hours. just thinking of all this guilt that I had of why I didn't see the signs and why I didn't do something to try and stop that. But I also thought about my daughter who's now at that time about six and a half years old. And I started thinking about what if she finds out that I actually killed myself in the line of duty? is the impact on her gonna be? Because I don't know if most people know it or not, but if you kill yourself, your kids are much more likely to kill themselves. That is an undisputed fact. It doesn't mean they will, but I'm telling you right now, if you're in that dark place and you're thinking about ending your life, you need to know the ripple effect and the ramifications. And all I could think about was my daughter and what would happen to her. And so thank God my friend John survived that. And after that, on the anniversary of my shooting, about a month later, I literally just broke down in my car for two hours, literally just bawling about what a mess my life had become. It was on that day that I finally got the strength and courage to pull out my cell phone. called the on-duty watch commander and I asked for help finally after struggling in silence and darkness for over four years. I knew that I couldn't do it myself. And at that point, I didn't care what people thought. I didn't care about my career. I cared about my daughter and I cared about living and surviving for her. And that phone call saved my life.
Kevin Whitsell: Wow, what a story that is. you are, yeah, that's a powerful thing. And what I really love about the way that you tell this story is that, especially in your book, and I want to talk about that for a minute because I listened to the audio book and then went back and read ⁓ the excerpts of the things that I definitely wanted to talk about. And I think that the audio book was so just perfect and powerful.
Makayla davidson: so powerful.
Kevin Whitsell: just held so much weight with it. And I think the reason that it did because you chose to kind of partner up with Dr. Shauna Singer, right? This is I assume a friend of yours because she she makes it very clear that she wasn't providing treatment for you. But but she was able to tell kind of some of the psychological things that you were going through and the biological things that you were going through. And then I think am I incorrect in saying that that was your voice on that audio book telling the story?
Michael Sugrue: Yeah, so The audio book, which we did a year after the book first came out, Dr. Shana Springer and I, we actually, every chapter is split into two parts. So the first part of every chapter is my story told in my voice, going all the way back to childhood until present day. The second half of every chapter, Doc Springer, Dr. Shana Springer, she's a PhD, a clinical psychologist, Harvard graduate, she's written several books. She comes in and breaks everything down and very easy to understand away so that anybody reading or listening to this is truly gonna see the human behind the badge in the uniform. And so when we went into this professional music studio where a lot of famous artists have recorded, recorded it, but like I relived every moment. So like when you hear it. I mean, it's literally coming straight from my heart and soul as well as Dr. Springer. And so you're hearing it from both our voices that's how powerful and impactful it is. so, you know, I know, and the thing is I regret not doing the audible sooner, cause we waited over a year, but I got so much feedback. A of military veterans with traumatic brain injury or a lot of first responders and military members with post-traumatic stress injury. Including myself. I just can't sit down and read a book. I just can't I can't focus like that I'm hyper vigilant. I can't relax and so an audible I can retain it. I can hear it. I can see it. can feel it and so you said, I'm they're both powerful, but I will tell you that that audible just ⁓ me out recording that I mean it devastated me like I was physically and mentally exhausted for a couple weeks after doing that because I poured everything I could into it because I wanted it to be as perfect as Genuine as it possibly could because this book it's saving lives I mean it's literally saving lives all around the world and there is no other book that I know like this in the world because usually It's like it's one of the other you either have to pick up like a gut-wrenching true-life story Or you pick up like a psych psych, you know textbook from a doctor and you learn about psychology and post-traumatic stress and anxiety and depression. Well, in this case, Doc Springer acts as like my backup, like my backup officer. And so, you know, after I'm sitting there pouring out my heart and soul and talking about the effects on physically, mentally on my loved ones, she's coming in and she's validating it and she's putting a foundation to it and she's explaining it. And that's why it's so powerful for people to read and listen to this because You will see yourself in these pages. You will hear yourself in the audible in your own story. And you're gonna be saying me too constantly throughout this book, I guarantee it. And I guarantee this book has the potential to save your relationships, to save your career, but most importantly to absolutely save your life, I guarantee it.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely. I would agree with that statement 100%. And one of the things that I found myself saying me too about a lot throughout listening to that was like, just the raw emotion in your voice, like it almost feels like you are walking through this critical instant again in real time. It is very much a powerful representation of not only what you went through, but the healing that you encountered through going to therapy and doing these other things. And when you're going through that healing and therapy, where there are certain foundations that
Michael Sugrue: Yeah, the first and foremost was having a culturally competent clinician, like somebody who truly understands us, someone that gets us. And I hit the lottery, I hit the jackpot. I mean, my therapist was fricking phenomenal. And I knew on day one meeting her, I could trust her with my life. And she was absolutely instrumental in my recovery process. But the other part of that was, She told me about these peer meetings that were run by volunteers. They weren't associated with any agencies. like confidential discussion meetings. And I started going to them. And that's where I started to really connect with my fellow brothers and sisters, paramedics, firefighters, dispatchers, police officers, and realized that I wasn't the only one. That there wasn't something wrong with me, that all the things I was feeling and going through were actually normal. considering all the abnormal things I've had to see and deal with. And so really to build that trust and that community and those relationships, to know that these people truly had my back and that they didn't judge me, they don't look down upon me, that I could share anything and everything, and that they would lift me up and wrap their arms around me and help me. that's the power of this healing is knowing that you're not alone. And I think for so many people out there, even people may be watching this or listening to this now, They're thinking it's only me. Like I'm the only one that feels this way. And that's what I'm telling you. It's not only you. There's thousands and thousands, if not, I mean, tens of thousands of us out there that are going through the same things. there's countless resources out there that I didn't know about. We an entire resource section in the back of our book, vetted resources, confidential, many are free. And again, just countless things and people that you can seek out to get help. Because there's not one magic thing that works for everybody. I want people to know that for most people it is a combination of a lot of things. And you also have to know that not everything is going to work. It may work for other people. You may see it work for other people. But you have to have an open mind. And you have to be willing to try new things. You have to be willing to step out of your comfort zone. And you also have to know that there's going to be setbacks. There's going to be good days, but there's also going to be bad days. And this is a marathon, it's not a sprint. And so for me, again, it was a combination of a lot of different things that got me to the point where I'm at in life today. And there's things today that I have to do to maintain it. I don't want people to think that I did some things, I'm all good, and I just go on with my life. No, there's things that I do some weekly, some monthly to maintain not just my physical fitness, but my mental fitness and my mental health.
Makayla davidson: So Michael, what would you say to yourself or someone who's dealing with a situation like you, like this critical incident, if you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself or someone who is dealing with the same thing that keeps saying they're fine?
Michael Sugrue: Well, I'll tell you, and I didn't learn this till my recovery, but the longer that you wait to get help or ask for help, the longer it's gonna take to get better. And so what I want people to know is that there's no time like then right now. I mean, there's really, there's no excuses. I get, you you may be worried about your agency, you may be worried about your department, but there's actually a lot of confidential free hotlines and text lines that are staffed by first responders. or you don't have to give your last name, you don't have to give your agency, and you can literally, in the privacy of your own home, of your car, you can start this process today without any negative ramifications on your career, people knowing about it, but I want you to know that there is things you can do right now, today, as soon as you stop listening to this interview, and you could literally start this recovery process. And one of my biggest regrets is not doing it sooner. Because I know looking back, if I would have done this sooner, there is no doubt I would still be on the job today. But more importantly, I would be a better supervisor today than I ever was before. This recovery process didn't make me weaker. It made me a fricking warrior. It made me stronger and it actually made me a better person. It made me more empathetic, more sympathetic. I look at the world totally different now. Before it was very black and white and I don't mean that by color. or race. mean, like if you broke the law, that was it. I didn't care what your circumstances were. You're getting a ticket, your car is getting towed, or you're going to jail. That was it. Now, it's like, no, people have things going on. They have things going on at home. They have things going on at work. We all have stress. have health issues. I mean, that's the thing is like, I look at the world differently. And so I want you to know that you got to do it. You got to do it for yourself, but you also have to do it for your loved ones. whether that means a spouse, a significant other, children, that ripple effect, it's gonna help you, but it's also gonna help them.
Makayla davidson: I love that. Michael, what would you, ⁓ do you do to fill your own cup at the end of the day?
Michael Sugrue: Well, so I do speak actually across the world. I just got back from Italy recently and I'm actually flying to LA in two days. But speak to active duty military, first responders, therapists, clinicians, veterans, but that's what fills my cup because after I present, which honestly I don't like doing, I hate speaking, it takes everything out of me, but it's the conversations. ⁓ that I have with people after, the people that come up and wanna talk to me and that wanna share, and they wanna share their experiences. And I can't tell you how many times flown to places, spoke for three hours, and have people tell me things they've never told anybody in their entire life. I'm like, imagine the power of that, right? I'm some stranger, some dude from California, they didn't know three hours earlier, and now they're literally ripping open their heart and soul and sharing things they've been scared to share. And that's the thing is like people have to understand that if you want people to be vulnerable, you have to first be open, transparent and vulnerable yourself. You will be amazed at what will happen if you decide instead of just asking, are you okay or how are you doing? Why don't you take them out to lunch or coffee and start that conversation with being open, honest and vulnerable. And you will absolutely save lives, absolutely save lives. And so That's what fills my cup. Doing interviews like this, getting messages on social media from people, same thing. That's what gives me my purpose. I believe that all this happened for a reason. As horrible as all of it was, and we haven't even hit the tip of the iceberg. mean, people that read the book and listen to it, you're gonna see, but I wouldn't change a single thing, not a single thing, because it's what led me here today. And this is my true purpose. This is my calling. This is what gets me out of bed every single day.
Makayla davidson: I love that. So Michael, give us your shameless plug. Where are all the places that we can find you in your book, in your audible?
Michael Sugrue: So the book, Relentless Courage, Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma, on Amazon. It's in paperback, hardcover, Kindle, Audible. You can get it online at walmart.com, barnesandnoble.com, Apple Books, Audible But here's deal. If you read or listen to it, I wanna personally hear from you. I want you to send me a message. on every social media platform you can imagine. All you have to type in is Sergeant. Michael Sugru, you got to put the sergeant first or google that and you'll see I'm on Facebook Instagram X truth parlor tik-tok, I mean LinkedIn like Every single one and I'm posting every single day. I check my messages daily But I want to hear from you. So please reach out
Makayla davidson: All of it.
Kevin Whitsell: Wow.
Makayla davidson: . You're brave. Not a lot of people would say that. There's a lot of crazies in the world.
Michael Sugrue: I get a few of those, honestly, it's a very small number, very small number. would say 99 % of people are just good hearted, genuine people that need help.
Makayla davidson: Yeah
Kevin Whitsell: Yep.
Makayla davidson: Well Kevin, where can you find us at?
Kevin Whitsell: Yes. Well, as always, guys, as we start to close, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, and then we stream on Apple Podcast and Spotify every week. Every Friday, you get a new episode, on YouTube and Spotify. So you can find us all those places. We also have a website, www.asylentorwithin.com. ⁓ You find us there and links to all of our things. There are some exciting things coming. for a silent war within. have a lot of things planned. have merch that will be releasing very soon. We're working on that. So we're super excited about ⁓ that of getting that off the ground. And then as well, we are trained peer supporters and you can always reach ⁓ out to us in that way. My tongue got tied for whatever reason. Usually I don't.
Michael Sugrue: Thanks. Okay.
Makayla davidson: we're going to some conferences, right?
Kevin Whitsell: Yep, yep, we're going to some conferences. We will be very soon the official podcast of the Tennessee First Responders Foundation goes before the board this week, but really hopeful that and really have a good outlook for that. So we're excited. ⁓ If doesn't happen, I'll cut that part out. absolutely exciting things coming down the line for us. Michael, thank you so much for coming on and us a little piece of your heart and telling us your story. And everybody go buy the book. Everything Michael mentioned will have links down below in the show note where you can go and purchase the book.
Makayla davidson: You've been wonderful.
Michael Sugrue: Thank you.
Kevin Whitsell: It is definitely worth the read or the listen. It's one of my favorite books of the season so far. So thank you for your work in that and Dr. Singer's in that. But thanks much.
Makayla davidson: And thank you for being so vulnerable. That was amazing.
Kevin Whitsell: Yes, and thank you for all the great pearls of things that we're going to post all over social media and tag you in. super excited to have you on our show and thank you for just writing such a banger of a book. I am very appreciative. ⁓ helps me for sure. So ⁓ to Thanks Michaela for jumping on and join us as always. We will you next time and Michaela hit him with our slogan since you've become so good at it as a plate.
Michael Sugrue: Absolutely.
Makayla davidson: Yes.
Michael Sugrue: Thank you. Yeah.
Makayla davidson: Be ready to swipe your credit card, Michael. Are you ready? Be safe, take care of your mind, and we will talk soon.
Kevin Whitsell: That's $1.99 per minute right there. All right. Thank you for listening, everybody. Bye-bye.
Makayla davidson: Ha ha!
Michael Sugrue: Hahaha
Makayla davidson: Thank you, bye.
Kevin: You've been listening to A Silent War Within. If this episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with someone who needs to hear it. Remember, you're not alone and your well-being matters. It's time to end this silent war.
Makayla davidson: Kevin, I'm doing lovely. It's a beautiful day in Maine here.
Kevin Whitsell: It is also a beautiful day in Memphis, Tennessee. So we are super excited. Well, just outside of Memphis. I'm now in Olive Branch, Mississippi. That's our new recording ⁓ studio. We're going to call it D &W Studios. For sure. So today we've got somebody that reached out ⁓ a little ago, probably five, six months ago, ⁓ and offered as a guest. ⁓
Michael Sugrue: Yeah.
Kevin Whitsell: And once we pursued that path, we found out that he had a book coming out. I bought the book, read the book, absolutely awesome book. Michael Sugru, and guy had ⁓ such story to tell in this book. If you have not went out purchased Relentless Courage, it's probably one of the better books. ⁓ that i've ever read about all the mental health things and some of the things that we deal with it's very interesting book and we'll get into why it's so interesting in a little bit but i want to jump right into it so michael tell us about well first a little bit about yourself i want to know about who michael is where you come from what's your story
Michael Sugrue: So I'm originally from the San Francisco Bay Area, which is actually where I'm back now. I ended up being in the military and living all over the world, but my interest in the military and law enforcement actually started all the way back in childhood. Mainly because of my stepfather, he raised me. He was my hero. He was in law enforcement. And I knew at a very young age that this was my path. things changed. Initially, I was going to go into federal law enforcement. And I knew to do that, I had to have a college degree and I had to some work experience. So I looked into the different services and I ended up getting a full scholarship through the Air Force ROTC program, majored in criminal justice. graduated in 98 from California State University and I went straight into the Air Force as a second lieutenant in security forces. And that's basically military police, anti-terrorism, force protection, air-based ground defense, nuclear security, you name it, a whole bunch of cool stuff. My original plan was to stay in just four years, but a lot of things happened. Mainly when I was in Germany, 9-11 happened. And a few months after that, I found myself in the Middle East. So I ended up staying in six and a half years, got stationed back in California at Travis Air Force Base, which is close to where I live now. ⁓ got out of the air force as a captain and I went straight into civilian law enforcement in the San Francisco Bay area for the Walnut Creek police department in 2004. when I was there, served over 14 years, bunch of different assignments from patrol officer. field training officer, detective. I was undercover on a state drug task force, a PIO and a patrol sergeant. a lot of things happened during all of that time, which I go into great detail in the book. But my story starts with a very traumatic incident that happened as a brand new patrol sergeant. And that incident really just changed everything. It changed my path, my trajectory. It led me down a very dark tunnel ⁓ to point where I didn't want to be here anymore. And it got so bad, I was purposely trying to get killed in the line of duty. And so the reason why I'm here today is to shed light on the realities of the impact of being a first responder or a military member and what it does to us, loved ones, our family members. But I'm living proof that no matter how dark it gets, no matter how bad it gets, you can come out the other side. And now I'm living a whole new life that is just freaking phenomenal. So I'm honored to be here. Again, I hope people that watch this and listen to this that it's gonna resonate with them. And something I say here today, it may help them or it may help somebody they love.
Kevin Whitsell: So you had a critical incident in 2012, is that correct?
Michael Sugrue: That's correct. The end of 2012, I was a brand new patrol sergeant. I had just been promoted and I was involved in a fatal officer involved shooting. I won't go into a lot of detail about it. I do so in the book. to make a long story short, basically there was a guy armed with a huge knife that had broken into a condominium and was trying to kill a couple that was barricaded inside their bedroom. And I was first on scene. Another officer showed up right behind me. We ended up confronting this individual. He was at the top of the stairs. We were at the bottom of the stairs and he ended up trying to kill us with that knife. And unfortunately, we had to take his life not only to save our own lives, but the lives of that couple that was barricaded inside their bedroom. And so that is the incident that I call my breaking point or my tipping point because I don't want people to think that that shooting or that incident alone you know, led to post-traumatic stress or caused this huge downfall. But the reality is, as first responders, and in my case, I had been exposed to hundreds and hundreds of critical incidents before that, but I never talked about them. I never processed them. I just stuffed them all inside. And so particular incident on that night, that shooting, that really is what broke me. It just, I lost that feeling of invincibility in literally a second. It was just taken away.
Kevin Whitsell: Talk about the feeling after that incident in 2012, because I think one of the things that I gathered from the book was that you were a guy of pretty high standards. Like you were this, though you had not become a high-ranking police officer yet, were Air guy. You had this level of respect and this level of dignity that you kind of lived by. And then what did that incident in 2012 do to some of those really built-in morals you kept?
Michael Sugrue: I've always been a hard charger. I mean, literally since being a child. I always excelled at pretty much everything I did. And something that I didn't mention earlier was I was a phoenix raven in the Air Force. And that's a very specialized subset of security forces members. when I came into the civilian law enforcement side, I had been a captain. I had supervised hundreds of people. I'd had command level positions. Lots of experience all over the world from the jungles of South America to all over Europe to the Middle East and even when I hit the streets as a filling officer, I was extremely proactive. I always worked the graveyard shifts. I was making on average two arrests a night, know, stopping like 20 vehicles, siding like 10 to 13 people a night. And my whole goal was getting guns and drugs off the streets to lead to that undercover career, which was my dream. It was my goal. And so up until that point, I would say that my career both in the military and civilian law enforcement were off the charts. Like everything that I wanted was falling into place. My life, so I thought, was perfect at that time. I had just bought my dream house. I was happily married. I had a beautiful two-year-old daughter. And I wanted to be chief of police someday. And I knew that... Every step that I was doing was preparing me eventually for that position or for that eventual assignment. And so when that incident happened, it led me to isolation. It led me to starting to drink too much. I didn't want to be around other people. I didn't want to socialize. I had not ever established a healthy communication at home, you know, talking about the job or getting these things off my chest. I didn't believe in counselors or therapists, psychiatrists, like none of that stuff. I literally live by, know what, just suck it up. We don't know this people. It doesn't bother us. not going to penetrate our armor. And just going to go on with my, my happy life. And in reality, you know, all these incidents year over year from child deaths to suicides, to homicides, even natural deaths, domestic violence, abuse, sexual assault cases. all these things are slowly taking a toll inside. And I'm not addressing a single one of them. I'm not processing them. I'm just telling myself that they're just gonna magically go away. And so when the shooting happened, it's like all these things just started pouring out. And again, I didn't turn to those healthy coping mechanisms because I didn't believe in those. You our department had at that time, Very progressive peer support program. We had a contracted therapist who was culturally competent. But again, nobody uses those resources back then. I certainly did. I didn't trust them. I thought that, you know, asking for help or even talking about these things or showing emotion would be weakness that'd be looked down upon, that'd be outcasted. And so, ⁓ know, it worked for a while. I would say I did well. I mean, I was operational when I put that badge and uniform on. I got the job done. But when I was at home and behind the scenes, everything in my life was literally falling apart the point where, you know, a few months later, my marriage was over. I'm fighting for ⁓ of my daughter. ⁓ starting to have health issues. I'm way too much. And again, I'm not dealing with these things in a positive or healthy manner. And one thing I didn't mention was even though shooting was deemed to be justified, You know, we saved the couple that was upstairs in that condominium. I mean, this guy was literally, the door was coming off the hinges as this guy was stabbing through their bedroom door with this huge Michael Myers sized knife from the movie Halloween. We've all seen that. ⁓ know, there's no doubt that we saved their lives, but the family sued us immediately and I had to endure a four year federal lawsuit. And so this incident that I wanted to forget, I had to remember every finite detail. because this federal lawsuit was looming over our head. And eventually four years later, it actually went to trial. I was defendant in San Francisco in federal court literally doing my job and saving lives. ⁓ I had endured two week trial, just hearing all these crazy theories by the attorneys the family hired, that we planted evidence that we were cold blooded killers, that this guy was never a threat. mean, just literally just, it took a toll. I mean, it absolutely devastated. And I mentioned earlier, it got so bad to the point where I put my officer safety and my tactics aside, my judgment, and I was purposely trying to insert myself into very dangerous situations at work, hoping a bad guy killed me. So opposite of suicide by cop, I was hoping for suicide by bad guy. And that's literally how bad and how dark it got for me.
Makayla davidson: I will say that just you showing your vulnerability in this moment I know that even how far it's been from 2012 talking about this I know that it still probably brings up feelings for you. You know that's any person who's in the public eye is the worst ⁓ is going to court or the worst fear is going to court. So you're always like on edge if something goes wrong I'm gonna get sued you know malpractice things like that in the nursing paramedic first responder world. ⁓ So you're sitting in court, four years later, they're talking to you like you're this criminal, right? Did that bring back some biological trauma of the moment when it happened?
Michael Sugrue: ⁓ absolutely. And what I didn't mention yet, it's in the book and I talk about it, but the guy that tried to kill me had an identical twin brother and he was in the courtroom sitting behind me during that two weeks. So, you know, all day, every day, face, this identical face that I've had in my nightmares, that still have in my nightmares from time to time is literally, you know, behind me in the courtroom. And when the court would break for lunch or restaurant breaks and whatnot, he would be in the hallway, the family members of the guy that I killed would be in the hallway, literally staring me down, mumbling, murder under their breath, and giving me the death stare. And I mean, you just can't even put into words the kind of pressure that that creates. And to sit there, like I said, in the defendant chair where the criminal would be, ⁓
Makayla davidson: Right.
Michael Sugrue: and literally having everything on the line, having this jury staring at you for two weeks, analyzing every single movement, every single facial expression, everything you say, picking and pulling apart, everything you did years later when literally I had split seconds to make life-saving decisions and now they're taking two weeks and numerous hours to go through everything, know, line by line and word for word, and it devastated me. I mean, literally devastated me and it brought everything back. I mean, it brought it right to the surface and it was literally right there in front of me in the courtroom the entire time.
Makayla davidson: Yeah. And also need to talk about the betrayal in leadership. You know, we talked about like your integrity questioned or your ethics, right? And then when you showed empathy, you had your probation extended. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Michael Sugrue: Yeah, so before the federal case in our county, we had what was called a coroner's inquest. And so the shooting happened the very end of December 2012. And in August 2013, they had a coroner's inquest. And those are held in our county anytime that somebody is killed or they die and law enforcement's present. like as an example, in a jail setting, somebody hangs themselves or an obvious suicide by cop or maybe a car chase or pursuit that ends in a fatality in my case, a shooting. So there's a judge, there's a jury, ⁓ it's to the public. Obviously everything's recorded. And in this case, the courtroom was packed. There was reporters there, people from my investigations bureau, the family members of the guy that I killed literally sitting in the front row just staring at me. I brought my wife at the time because we're having ⁓ Marital issues and I hadn't really talked to her about that incident. I was hoping if she heard it herself Maybe she'd understand why I was being so distant and why I was being such a jerk and so in this court proceeding I finally got called up to testify and I've been in court like most officers hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of times for traffic court Criminal court. I was the drug expert for the county so I'd get called on other people's cases and going to court for me was always just part of the job. You go in there, you answer the questions, you're wearing your suit, you're professional, and you knock it out, you get it done. Well, in this case, when the judge, when I got to the part where the guy is coming down the stairwell with a knife, I literally just lost it. I started bawling and crying in the courtroom in front of everybody. And I was literally just in shock. I couldn't believe it. I was so embarrassed. I was so worried what people would think because they saw me crying. And I remember I just wanted to run out of that courtroom. I was hoping everybody would just forget about it. And so when I got done testifying, I ranced the bathroom with splashing water in my face, telling myself, you know, get your shit together, get back in there, your officer stuff to testify. And I did. The officers testified. They did great. And a couple of weeks later, we actually got the best possible finding that you could get with this coroner's inquest. Now, mind you, I'm on probation because in our department when you get promoted you're on probation for a year. So I got promoted in November of 2012 and now we're talking about August 2013. So literally there's three months left on my probation. Also what I didn't mention was that the entire time I had been with my agency there had not been a single officer involved shooting. So imagine you're a brand new sergeant, you have one, you save lives, none of your officers are hurt. you get cleared by the DA, you get the best possible finding in the corners in Quest. And one of my captains, when we got this finding, called me into the office and I thought, oh, this is gonna be good. I'm gonna get accolades, they're gonna tell me what a great job I did. And when I went in there, there was a captain, a couple of lieutenants, and you could tell they were very serious. They told me to close the door and have a seat. And as soon as I sat down, this is where, for me, it was an absolutely pivotal moment because... couple things happened in that room. And the first thing that happened was the genuineness of my emotions during that coroner's inquest was called into question, both directly and indirectly. And it was said and inferred that I was acting or putting on a show for the jury. But again, I'm a former military guy. I don't question authority. I'm just sitting there. taking it. I'm not talking back. leadership ability got called into question. And at this point, we have a new police chief. So when my shooting happened, we had a different chief. And that was the chief that promoted me. I loved that chief. He was a great leader. arrived at the scene of the shooting, drove me back to the department. But months later, he had retired and this new chief who I didn't know came in. And that's when they decided they were gonna extend my probation indefinitely, which put my promotion in jeopardy. And I had never experienced like that anything my entire life. I mean, not in the military, not in civilian law enforcement. I'd never heard of a supervisor having their probation extended. And this is where I should have asked for help. This is where I should have opened up discussed how my life was literally falling apart. My marriage was over. Like literally I'm just losing everything. But I didn't do that. I decided to suck it up. I made a conscious decision to never show emotion again, to never show weakness, to prove them wrong, and to get through my probation. And I did that. And I became a real asshole at work. I became unapproachable. didn't want to come to me and talk to me if they had their own issues. I lost sight of empathy and sympathy. I mean, I literally just had this ⁓ up where I was never gonna show ⁓ any kind of emotion, any kind of empathy. And like I said, that's where I failed as a leader because it got to the point where when my people came to me with their own issues, I remember just telling myself that that doesn't sound like an issue to me. Like you really have no idea what it means to have issues. When in reality, you know, they were going through their own things. I just couldn't see it. I couldn't deal with it because if I did, it was gonna open everything back up and put everything in jeopardy for me.
Makayla davidson: And ⁓ we talked about how when you were in court, they sit there and they look at you like you're a criminal, right? And this is before you had body cams, right? So you couldn't let's play the tapes. Let's see how this all went down, right? You had of that on your side. So your partner's testimony or the guy that showed up right behind you was all that you were pretty much banking on, ⁓
Michael Sugrue: Yes. Correct. Well, there was actually, so in the shooting, was myself and a female officer that arrived first on scene. And then while the guy was still at the top of the stairs, another male and another female officer arrived and saw the commune. So there was actually four of us involved. was four officers that fired their weapons, but of the officers, the two female officers were not given qualified immunity. Excuse me, sorry. So they were only involved in the first volume of shots. and we were given qualified immunity for that first volley of shots. there was a second volley of shots when the guy is at the bottom of the stairs and only myself and that other male officer were involved in that. And that's where the fatal shots were fired. And so because of that, he and I were the only ones that were on federal trial. The two other officers became actual witnesses, not defendants, if that makes sense.
Makayla davidson: got you. So how does that feel when you're going through the court and your body so bad wants to move on from this incident but your mind is having to replay all of this second by second by second incidents during the courtroom?
Michael Sugrue: I mean, it's indescribable. And like I said, the process leading up to the trial, we had depositions almost every year. And that's where we'd be in a tiny conference room. They had like four or five attorneys. They had a ⁓ video camera, a court reporter. And the father of the guy that I killed was sitting directly across the table from me at every single deposition. And they've got this camera just pointed at your face and they're drilling you for eight hours. And we would have one. about once a year because we all were involved and we had to be there for everybody's deposition. So again, I'm just reliving this over and over and over. And the thing was is during this process, I kind of blamed everything on this trial that was looming over my head. And so I told myself that, you know what, as long as I can get through this trial when it's finally done, as long as we prevail, like all my problems will magically go away. And in reality, that didn't happen. My problems got much, much worse. fact, just sitting there for those two weeks, it made me start to second guess myself. I mean, just looking back, I no other choice. I had no other options. But just being in that mindset, being in that courtroom for two weeks and hearing these crazy hired guns for the other side, these quote unquote expert witnesses with all these outlandish theories, I started saying, you what if I would have paused here? What if I would have done this here? And we call that magical thinking because none of that's reality. But again, it started to put doubt into my mind and it just really increased the night terrors and the nightmares and it increased all those horrific symptoms of anxiety, depression, rage that I was constantly feeling.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, and I think that part of this is the fact that no matter if it's a critical incident, the size of yours where it's this long drawn out thing or whether it's a paramedic that has a bad call or fill in the blank, whatever first responder line of duty that you're in, when you have a critical incident, it really does affect you in very similar ways biologically. So when you get into that and you start to feel that and you're not accustomed to it, like what you're describing, driving really screams to me like this is somebody that that is experiencing this huge critical incident for maybe the first time maybe it's not registering with you. But when did when did you start the because I think we all do this. I think we all start this I'm fine narrative and you as people ask us ⁓ man how are you we're going to answer with I'm fine. When did I'm fine become not so fine at home. When did it begin to bleed over into your home life.
Michael Sugrue: I mean, honestly, immediately, I mean, I would say it was gradual, but it was the day I came home from that shooting. I mean, it started right there and, know, it was gradual. But there was already issues at home because like I said, I didn't establish that healthy communication where I could rely on my spouse at the time and communicate in a healthy way about the horrible things I was going through and seeing at work and getting it off my chest. Instead, I would come home pissed off and she'd be walking around eggshells around me, not knowing, thinking that it was her, something she did, not realizing because I saw some kid get run over in a crosswalk and literally die in front of me at work. Those are things I didn't talk about. And again, I'm not advocating for talking about that stuff in graphic details, but what I'm telling people is don't make the mistake that I did and wait till the huge critical incident because it might be too late by then. You know, you're going to have all these other critical incidents before then. And so really from day one on the job, you should establish this healthy communication and rapport at home, whether it's with a spouse, a loved one, a clergy member, a therapist, I mean, a chaplain, somebody that you you trust in your life, but I didn't have that with anybody. You know, I literally just kept everything inside. And so I tried self-medicating with alcohol and that only makes things much, worse. You know, also self-medicated by isolation and that just increases the depression and anxiety. And, and again, it just creates that divide and that division. So, you know, I don't want people to think that the shooting happened the next day. I'm just a total mess because it wasn't like that. And it's different for everybody. I would say that I immediately noted something different after that shooting. Like I said, for me, that feeling of invincibility, that feeling of being Superman, my entire military career, my time undercover on a state drug task force doing high risk entries multiple times a day, for whatever reason, it was just taken away from me in that instant. And it wasn't just because, because there's other situations where I could have died. or it could have been shot or this could have happened. I pulled out my gun hundreds of times before that. But this incident, for whatever reason, like I said, and I look at it like a jar, like my jar was filling up and filling up and filling up, and this incident caused my jar to kind of start to overflow. And that's what I want people to understand is that these incidents affect everybody differently, and it's not always gonna be the most obvious incident that's gonna break you or push you over the edge. And a lot of times too, what you have going on in your own personal life, or even things that happened in childhood, and we haven't gotten to childhood trauma yet, but all those things impact on how different critical incidents affect us. And even in my shooting, everybody was affected differently. I also know everybody had different roles. know, two people in the shooting didn't hit the guy at all. None of their rounds hit him. ⁓ So... In reality, they don't have to live with the fact that they took his life. But maybe they have guilt because they didn't hit the guy. Or was another guy that it was his beat, his call, but he was at home on break and he was the last one to arrive on scene. And when he arrived on scene, it was already over. The shots had already been fired. And so he's probably got some guilt and things that he's dealing with. But again, want people to know, especially supervisors, to know that ⁓ these incidents will affect people in different ways. And it's not always obvious on who's gonna be affected the most. And some people may be fine or they may think they're fine. ⁓ really depends, we're all different. But I will tell you, like I mentioned before, ⁓ had been exposed to hundreds and hundreds of critical incidents before that night. And I had seen just horrific, horrific things throughout my career. But again, for me, this was the tipping point. This was the breaking point.
Kevin Whitsell: So I think you mentioned something interesting that we've seen really amongst, I would say, 90 % of our guests. You mentioned childhood trauma. And I think that what you find, and especially the first responder community, regardless of what area you serve in, there is a typical trend that most of us have some type of childhood trauma. So you don't have to go into graphic detail, of course. But I want to hear some of the things that maybe pushed you into the law enforcement career from your childhood, and especially that childhood trauma, because I think that's a trend that we see.
Michael Sugrue: Yeah, you know, I didn't believe in this. was denial of this for years, but I do absolutely agree with you. And I do think that not all, but I think a lot of first responders have some form of childhood trauma. And again, it can be very minor. It can like a parent who is not expressive of how they feel. They're not affectionate. Maybe they're working the time to provide. They do love you. Or it could be like in my case, my biological father was an alcoholic and a drug addict. in some cases, it could be on the severe end of the spectrum and be physical abuse or sexual abuse. But the point is that these early childhood experiences, they make us very resilient. We overcome adversity, we become we, you know, it draws us. to this career of being caretakers, of wanting to help other people. the sad thing is though, is that we never deal with that childhood trauma. We stuff it away, we overcome it, and we become these big bad asses, whether we're paramedics, firefighters, police officers, military members, we've got the badge, the uniform. And so now, not ever going back there. We're not thinking about that. We're not gonna be that vulnerable weak kid anymore. big, badass, strong warriors now. And the thing is, is that at some point, that childhood trauma is gonna rear its ugly head. And in my case, and I didn't connect these dots till years later, but I had abandonment issues because of my biological father was an addict and alcoholic. issues where he just wouldn't show up to things. He wasn't reliable. He obviously drunk or on drugs. and I was trying to be his caretaker and doing all these things. And so fast forward, I find this new blue family, law enforcement, they love me, they've got my back. Until it gets to that point, what I call administrative betrayal or institutional betrayal, where they turn their back on us. Well, in my case, that's what brought back that unresolved abandonment issues. Because now I have my new family, my blue family. and they're literally abandoning me when I need them most. And so in many cases, and in my case, you'll find that people have multiple layers of trauma. They'll have the childhood trauma, and then they'll have the battlefield trauma or the street trauma. And then on top of that, you have your moral injury or your administrative betrayal or your institutional betrayal. And these things are all intertwined, they're all connected, but you do have to deal with them individually. And you do have to connect the dots at some point. And so for me, when I finally started my recovery process for post-traumatic stress, I never thought about childhood trauma. I never brought it up. I never talked about it with therapists. I didn't talk about it when I went to the West Coast post-trauma retreat because literally I had forgotten about it. And I had a great mother, had a great stepfather, I had a good upbringing, I went to good schools. I mean, I don't want people to think I had this horrible childhood because I didn't. I had a great life, I had a great childhood. there was issues that were lingering in the background that I literally had forgotten about. And I didn't realize till years of recovery work of what that impact was. And I think it's important to people to realize that now as they're watching this, as they're listening to it, think back and say, did this job, ⁓ know, I pick it or did it actually pick me? And in most cases, this job picks you. the most ironic part about all of that, it makes us very, very good at what we do. I would say that most responders with some form of childhood trauma are phenomenal, phenomenal first responders that put their entire heart and soul into it every single day, putting their lives on the line, trying to help every single that they can. And the public doesn't see that. They don't realize that we are willing go out every single day put our lives on the line for complete strangers because we want to help people we want to save people.
Kevin Whitsell: So in all of this and your experience in all this, when was this wake up call? Because I think there was a point in the book you had a friend that took his own life and that was kind of seeing his battle and his struggle was kind of what made you go, wait a minute, I'm in kind of the same place.
Michael Sugrue: Well, he didn't take his life, but he tried to take his life. So this happened basically about a month and a half after that federal trial ended. So the federal trial ended in September of 2016. We prevailed. And a week after Thanksgiving or so, I was on duty. I was a day shift patrol sergeant getting ready to go home and a suicide in progress comes out. And I didn't recognize the address at first, but it turned out to be my best friend John. John was a Vietnam veteran, he was an Army MP, but he was also a 35 year reserve officer with my department. He had retired a few years earlier, but we were partners. He would ride together with me all the time. And he was going through some personal things where he'd lost his relationship of decades. He didn't have kids, but his dogs both died in a short timeframe. And you he never talked about PTSI or PTSD or the Vietnam War. And I didn't realize how much he was struggling. But it got so bad that he did try to take his own life. And I remember I got to the trauma center just as the ambulance brought him in and he had slipped both wrists. He had stabbed himself in the torso multiple times, OD'd on multiple prescription medications. And he was like 70 when this happened. And I remember having like 30 seconds with him before they rushed him off to emergency surgery. And I remember just sitting there in the hospital for hours. just thinking of all this guilt that I had of why I didn't see the signs and why I didn't do something to try and stop that. But I also thought about my daughter who's now at that time about six and a half years old. And I started thinking about what if she finds out that I actually killed myself in the line of duty? is the impact on her gonna be? Because I don't know if most people know it or not, but if you kill yourself, your kids are much more likely to kill themselves. That is an undisputed fact. It doesn't mean they will, but I'm telling you right now, if you're in that dark place and you're thinking about ending your life, you need to know the ripple effect and the ramifications. And all I could think about was my daughter and what would happen to her. And so thank God my friend John survived that. And after that, on the anniversary of my shooting, about a month later, I literally just broke down in my car for two hours, literally just bawling about what a mess my life had become. It was on that day that I finally got the strength and courage to pull out my cell phone. called the on-duty watch commander and I asked for help finally after struggling in silence and darkness for over four years. I knew that I couldn't do it myself. And at that point, I didn't care what people thought. I didn't care about my career. I cared about my daughter and I cared about living and surviving for her. And that phone call saved my life.
Kevin Whitsell: Wow, what a story that is. you are, yeah, that's a powerful thing. And what I really love about the way that you tell this story is that, especially in your book, and I want to talk about that for a minute because I listened to the audio book and then went back and read ⁓ the excerpts of the things that I definitely wanted to talk about. And I think that the audio book was so just perfect and powerful.
Makayla davidson: so powerful.
Kevin Whitsell: just held so much weight with it. And I think the reason that it did because you chose to kind of partner up with Dr. Shauna Singer, right? This is I assume a friend of yours because she she makes it very clear that she wasn't providing treatment for you. But but she was able to tell kind of some of the psychological things that you were going through and the biological things that you were going through. And then I think am I incorrect in saying that that was your voice on that audio book telling the story?
Michael Sugrue: Yeah, so The audio book, which we did a year after the book first came out, Dr. Shana Springer and I, we actually, every chapter is split into two parts. So the first part of every chapter is my story told in my voice, going all the way back to childhood until present day. The second half of every chapter, Doc Springer, Dr. Shana Springer, she's a PhD, a clinical psychologist, Harvard graduate, she's written several books. She comes in and breaks everything down and very easy to understand away so that anybody reading or listening to this is truly gonna see the human behind the badge in the uniform. And so when we went into this professional music studio where a lot of famous artists have recorded, recorded it, but like I relived every moment. So like when you hear it. I mean, it's literally coming straight from my heart and soul as well as Dr. Springer. And so you're hearing it from both our voices that's how powerful and impactful it is. so, you know, I know, and the thing is I regret not doing the audible sooner, cause we waited over a year, but I got so much feedback. A of military veterans with traumatic brain injury or a lot of first responders and military members with post-traumatic stress injury. Including myself. I just can't sit down and read a book. I just can't I can't focus like that I'm hyper vigilant. I can't relax and so an audible I can retain it. I can hear it. I can see it. can feel it and so you said, I'm they're both powerful, but I will tell you that that audible just ⁓ me out recording that I mean it devastated me like I was physically and mentally exhausted for a couple weeks after doing that because I poured everything I could into it because I wanted it to be as perfect as Genuine as it possibly could because this book it's saving lives I mean it's literally saving lives all around the world and there is no other book that I know like this in the world because usually It's like it's one of the other you either have to pick up like a gut-wrenching true-life story Or you pick up like a psych psych, you know textbook from a doctor and you learn about psychology and post-traumatic stress and anxiety and depression. Well, in this case, Doc Springer acts as like my backup, like my backup officer. And so, you know, after I'm sitting there pouring out my heart and soul and talking about the effects on physically, mentally on my loved ones, she's coming in and she's validating it and she's putting a foundation to it and she's explaining it. And that's why it's so powerful for people to read and listen to this because You will see yourself in these pages. You will hear yourself in the audible in your own story. And you're gonna be saying me too constantly throughout this book, I guarantee it. And I guarantee this book has the potential to save your relationships, to save your career, but most importantly to absolutely save your life, I guarantee it.
Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely. I would agree with that statement 100%. And one of the things that I found myself saying me too about a lot throughout listening to that was like, just the raw emotion in your voice, like it almost feels like you are walking through this critical instant again in real time. It is very much a powerful representation of not only what you went through, but the healing that you encountered through going to therapy and doing these other things. And when you're going through that healing and therapy, where there are certain foundations that
Michael Sugrue: Yeah, the first and foremost was having a culturally competent clinician, like somebody who truly understands us, someone that gets us. And I hit the lottery, I hit the jackpot. I mean, my therapist was fricking phenomenal. And I knew on day one meeting her, I could trust her with my life. And she was absolutely instrumental in my recovery process. But the other part of that was, She told me about these peer meetings that were run by volunteers. They weren't associated with any agencies. like confidential discussion meetings. And I started going to them. And that's where I started to really connect with my fellow brothers and sisters, paramedics, firefighters, dispatchers, police officers, and realized that I wasn't the only one. That there wasn't something wrong with me, that all the things I was feeling and going through were actually normal. considering all the abnormal things I've had to see and deal with. And so really to build that trust and that community and those relationships, to know that these people truly had my back and that they didn't judge me, they don't look down upon me, that I could share anything and everything, and that they would lift me up and wrap their arms around me and help me. that's the power of this healing is knowing that you're not alone. And I think for so many people out there, even people may be watching this or listening to this now, They're thinking it's only me. Like I'm the only one that feels this way. And that's what I'm telling you. It's not only you. There's thousands and thousands, if not, I mean, tens of thousands of us out there that are going through the same things. there's countless resources out there that I didn't know about. We an entire resource section in the back of our book, vetted resources, confidential, many are free. And again, just countless things and people that you can seek out to get help. Because there's not one magic thing that works for everybody. I want people to know that for most people it is a combination of a lot of things. And you also have to know that not everything is going to work. It may work for other people. You may see it work for other people. But you have to have an open mind. And you have to be willing to try new things. You have to be willing to step out of your comfort zone. And you also have to know that there's going to be setbacks. There's going to be good days, but there's also going to be bad days. And this is a marathon, it's not a sprint. And so for me, again, it was a combination of a lot of different things that got me to the point where I'm at in life today. And there's things today that I have to do to maintain it. I don't want people to think that I did some things, I'm all good, and I just go on with my life. No, there's things that I do some weekly, some monthly to maintain not just my physical fitness, but my mental fitness and my mental health.
Makayla davidson: So Michael, what would you say to yourself or someone who's dealing with a situation like you, like this critical incident, if you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself or someone who is dealing with the same thing that keeps saying they're fine?
Michael Sugrue: Well, I'll tell you, and I didn't learn this till my recovery, but the longer that you wait to get help or ask for help, the longer it's gonna take to get better. And so what I want people to know is that there's no time like then right now. I mean, there's really, there's no excuses. I get, you you may be worried about your agency, you may be worried about your department, but there's actually a lot of confidential free hotlines and text lines that are staffed by first responders. or you don't have to give your last name, you don't have to give your agency, and you can literally, in the privacy of your own home, of your car, you can start this process today without any negative ramifications on your career, people knowing about it, but I want you to know that there is things you can do right now, today, as soon as you stop listening to this interview, and you could literally start this recovery process. And one of my biggest regrets is not doing it sooner. Because I know looking back, if I would have done this sooner, there is no doubt I would still be on the job today. But more importantly, I would be a better supervisor today than I ever was before. This recovery process didn't make me weaker. It made me a fricking warrior. It made me stronger and it actually made me a better person. It made me more empathetic, more sympathetic. I look at the world totally different now. Before it was very black and white and I don't mean that by color. or race. mean, like if you broke the law, that was it. I didn't care what your circumstances were. You're getting a ticket, your car is getting towed, or you're going to jail. That was it. Now, it's like, no, people have things going on. They have things going on at home. They have things going on at work. We all have stress. have health issues. I mean, that's the thing is like, I look at the world differently. And so I want you to know that you got to do it. You got to do it for yourself, but you also have to do it for your loved ones. whether that means a spouse, a significant other, children, that ripple effect, it's gonna help you, but it's also gonna help them.
Makayla davidson: I love that. Michael, what would you, ⁓ do you do to fill your own cup at the end of the day?
Michael Sugrue: Well, so I do speak actually across the world. I just got back from Italy recently and I'm actually flying to LA in two days. But speak to active duty military, first responders, therapists, clinicians, veterans, but that's what fills my cup because after I present, which honestly I don't like doing, I hate speaking, it takes everything out of me, but it's the conversations. ⁓ that I have with people after, the people that come up and wanna talk to me and that wanna share, and they wanna share their experiences. And I can't tell you how many times flown to places, spoke for three hours, and have people tell me things they've never told anybody in their entire life. I'm like, imagine the power of that, right? I'm some stranger, some dude from California, they didn't know three hours earlier, and now they're literally ripping open their heart and soul and sharing things they've been scared to share. And that's the thing is like people have to understand that if you want people to be vulnerable, you have to first be open, transparent and vulnerable yourself. You will be amazed at what will happen if you decide instead of just asking, are you okay or how are you doing? Why don't you take them out to lunch or coffee and start that conversation with being open, honest and vulnerable. And you will absolutely save lives, absolutely save lives. And so That's what fills my cup. Doing interviews like this, getting messages on social media from people, same thing. That's what gives me my purpose. I believe that all this happened for a reason. As horrible as all of it was, and we haven't even hit the tip of the iceberg. mean, people that read the book and listen to it, you're gonna see, but I wouldn't change a single thing, not a single thing, because it's what led me here today. And this is my true purpose. This is my calling. This is what gets me out of bed every single day.
Makayla davidson: I love that. So Michael, give us your shameless plug. Where are all the places that we can find you in your book, in your audible?
Michael Sugrue: So the book, Relentless Courage, Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma, on Amazon. It's in paperback, hardcover, Kindle, Audible. You can get it online at walmart.com, barnesandnoble.com, Apple Books, Audible But here's deal. If you read or listen to it, I wanna personally hear from you. I want you to send me a message. on every social media platform you can imagine. All you have to type in is Sergeant. Michael Sugru, you got to put the sergeant first or google that and you'll see I'm on Facebook Instagram X truth parlor tik-tok, I mean LinkedIn like Every single one and I'm posting every single day. I check my messages daily But I want to hear from you. So please reach out
Makayla davidson: All of it.
Kevin Whitsell: Wow.
Makayla davidson: . You're brave. Not a lot of people would say that. There's a lot of crazies in the world.
Michael Sugrue: I get a few of those, honestly, it's a very small number, very small number. would say 99 % of people are just good hearted, genuine people that need help.
Makayla davidson: Yeah
Kevin Whitsell: Yep.
Makayla davidson: Well Kevin, where can you find us at?
Kevin Whitsell: Yes. Well, as always, guys, as we start to close, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, and then we stream on Apple Podcast and Spotify every week. Every Friday, you get a new episode, on YouTube and Spotify. So you can find us all those places. We also have a website, www.asylentorwithin.com. ⁓ You find us there and links to all of our things. There are some exciting things coming. for a silent war within. have a lot of things planned. have merch that will be releasing very soon. We're working on that. So we're super excited about ⁓ that of getting that off the ground. And then as well, we are trained peer supporters and you can always reach ⁓ out to us in that way. My tongue got tied for whatever reason. Usually I don't.
Michael Sugrue: Thanks. Okay.
Makayla davidson: we're going to some conferences, right?
Kevin Whitsell: Yep, yep, we're going to some conferences. We will be very soon the official podcast of the Tennessee First Responders Foundation goes before the board this week, but really hopeful that and really have a good outlook for that. So we're excited. ⁓ If doesn't happen, I'll cut that part out. absolutely exciting things coming down the line for us. Michael, thank you so much for coming on and us a little piece of your heart and telling us your story. And everybody go buy the book. Everything Michael mentioned will have links down below in the show note where you can go and purchase the book.
Makayla davidson: You've been wonderful.
Michael Sugrue: Thank you.
Kevin Whitsell: It is definitely worth the read or the listen. It's one of my favorite books of the season so far. So thank you for your work in that and Dr. Singer's in that. But thanks much.
Makayla davidson: And thank you for being so vulnerable. That was amazing.
Kevin Whitsell: Yes, and thank you for all the great pearls of things that we're going to post all over social media and tag you in. super excited to have you on our show and thank you for just writing such a banger of a book. I am very appreciative. ⁓ helps me for sure. So ⁓ to Thanks Michaela for jumping on and join us as always. We will you next time and Michaela hit him with our slogan since you've become so good at it as a plate.
Michael Sugrue: Absolutely.
Makayla davidson: Yes.
Michael Sugrue: Thank you. Yeah.
Makayla davidson: Be ready to swipe your credit card, Michael. Are you ready? Be safe, take care of your mind, and we will talk soon.
Kevin Whitsell: That's $1.99 per minute right there. All right. Thank you for listening, everybody. Bye-bye.
Makayla davidson: Ha ha!
Michael Sugrue: Hahaha
Makayla davidson: Thank you, bye.
