WEBVTT
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Hello, I'm James.
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Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.
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Good afternoon.
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How.
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Hi James.
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I'm doing well.
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How are you?
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I'm doing fabulously.
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Thank you very much.
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What we talking about today.
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Well today we have a follow up from our podcast we did a few weeks ago on difficult people.
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We are talking about actual difficult conversations that we face at work'cause we all face them.
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And often outside work as well.
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And most of us dread those conversations.
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We find them challenging.
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They're part of the work that we hate and that we don't feel we do particularly well.
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Well, today, that all changes and we are gonna help you think, plan, and act differently.
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Fortunately, you're not reliant on me and James.
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We have got.
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Amanda Gilbert, who's a learning and development guru, who is going to share some ways of thinking and acting differently.
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That will make difficult conversations easy.
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I thought you were gonna say she's a bonafide, difficult person and that's why we've got
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Now, that's why we've got you, James, you, you are going, she's going to do some live management of difficult conversations with.
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Do coaching.
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dreading it already.
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Anyhow.
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Before we get into that, James, what have you been up to?
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I have mainly been choosing university courses this year.
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Oh, so this week my daughter wants to go to
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Well, we're onto, you're onto a, like a tour of the uk.
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yes, we are, we're on a tour of the uk but now we're on a tour of all these places where you can't actually do the flipping course she wants to do.
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So she's decided she wants to do economics with French, with being a.
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Key word there.
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It's 75% economics, 25% French.
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That's all sounds very good until you work out.
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There are only two places in the country she can legitimately do that.
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One is Liverpool.
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She don't wanna go there because I went to Liverpool.
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So, no, that's just definitely not cool and neither one's not a sure it hell doesn't wanna go there.
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So we've been having some pretty difficult conversations in our household about university choices.
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So
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Excellent.
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what's
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Well,
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life.
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well, I'm very proud of you, James talking about economics with French, without getting into the subject of French economics, where I'm sure you could have made all sorts of inappropriate
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Anyway, so that's what I've been up to.
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How about you?
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Well, I have finished a book, James, which
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a whole
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a whole one, and it was a real hard copy book.
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When you say you finished it, did you listen to it or did
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I read it.
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It was a physical book.
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Anyhow, it's a recommendation I've got for everyone now, and it is called Invisible Women, and it's by Caroline Cardo Perez.
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I recommend this book to every man who is either married to a woman, has daughters, or has a mother.
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And it should be read.
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It is incredible.
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The world is designed for men.
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It's so, it's not just the bias, it's the fact that.
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Data isn't collected about, gender splits so therefore the assumption in so many things is around the average man.
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And, I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't realized the extent of this And anyhow, this, she's got thousands of examples.
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They're everywhere But I thought I'd share just my, top three.
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I don't say favorites, but top three.
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First one is crash test Dummies in cars they're male shape, and therefore, as a result, safety of cars is designed to protect men.
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So women are 47% more likely to be injured and 17% more likely to die in a car even when they do eventually test.
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Using female crash test dummies, all they do is shrink the male one down.
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So it's even not anatomically correct.
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Second one.
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In medical research, women form less than 25% of early tests for new drugs, which means that as a result they're 50% to 75% more likely to react badly to new drugs that are on the market.
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Hence the thalidomide scandal.
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No doubt.
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And the final one I'll share, which it's not quite as life and death, but did you know that women's hands are on average two centimeters smaller than men's yet?
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Mobile phones have increased in physical size by 20% over the last decade.
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The reason why they've done that is because the use cases that they have for mobile phones are things like watching sports, gaming, stuff like that.
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And so they want a bigger screen fits in a man's hand so you can use it.
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One handed fits in a man's pocket.
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It doesn't fit in a woman's hand.
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It's more difficult to to use.
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They're more likely to get repetitive strain or drop it or have it stolen.
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Doesn't fit in a woman's pocket, but it's because it's designed using data around men and what men need and men's use cases.
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Anyway, I could go on all day, so I'll stop there.
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But this book, I honestly, you have to read.
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It is, it's incredible and scary.
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Very good.
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I will.
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I've got a wife and two daughters.
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I probably should.
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probably all read it.
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And Amanda is just nodding sagely because this is just how you experience the world.
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Welcome.
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Yes.
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Well, I, I wouldn't like to say welcome.
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I, it is more, I got a glimpse and it was scary.
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Anyhow.
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Amanda, What have you been up to since we since you last were with us?
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Yes, it's a, it's been a while, but what have I been up to?
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So, did I mention to you before that we had
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It.
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puppy?
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He's been around for a while, so he's taken over our lives in a way that's completely mad.
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I think we've reached that stage in life where we are getting a little bit older.
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So the last thing you want is the most energetic dog in the world in your life.
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And we seem to have.
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what you
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Fallen into the trap of yeah, God ourselves, a little caucus spaniel puppy who is the most energetic breed, but he's really so much fun.
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So that's probably one of the big pieces of news.
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of work around good stuff.
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Listening to you guys and your podcast, amused by your difficult people So excited to be in, in this conversation and adding some more tools and mindsets around actually.
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Conversations that we perceive to be difficult, how might you go about handling those with less difficulty?
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And difficult people was one of our.
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More popular episodes.
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Hmm.
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That's why we thought doing a follow up to actually talk about the, the actual nitty gritty of the conversation rather than the person.
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And we thought, who, who do we know who's an expert and good at talking about difficult people?
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Well, that, that's gotta be Amanda.
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So we struggle with it.
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So we thought we'd bring you in.
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So what's your perspective on, having difficult conversations?
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So it doesn't surprise me that that was a popular podcast edition in business.
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I think practically every business that I've.
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Worked in and operated from a learning and development consultancy perspective.
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It's one of those topics that comes up in all, all businesses.
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How do we have, how do we handle difficult conversations?
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Very often in the work environment, we rebrand that to how do we have productive conversations?
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So as I was preparing to come to this conversation, what occurred to me was actually there are probably two broad themes in that difficult conversations heading one where you might perceive the relationship as difficult or the interaction in the relationship system as being, as having conflict or potential conflict, which I think is what you were talking about.
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More in the, the difficult people episode.
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And so actually some more thinking about that.
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And then the other theme that came out a lot is training for, delivering a difficult message.
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How do you go about delivering, you know.
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Bad news.
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Arguably.
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So for me, coming into this, I'm sort, I'm, I'm bringing two dimensions of, of the difficulty.
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I think that sounds terrible.
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I don't wanna be bringing the difficulty.
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What I want to be
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Well, yeah, you're bringing solutions.
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Well, when, when we were thinking about expertise, you've trained people in having difficult conversations, right?
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So that makes you an expert.
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James and I have only created difficult conversations, so therefore, your street's ahead of us.
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So actually whilst we're on that topic then, what from your perspective, do you, would we, are you thinking about when you are thinking about difficult conversations?
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So I guess for, for me, when I think about difficult conversations, a couple that I've always.
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Always dreaded., I didn't necessarily.
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Have particular people that I dreaded, but the conversations I found most difficult was giving negative feedback to people where I hadn't, hadn't witnessed it firsthand.
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If I'd seen the behavior, I didn't have a problem with it.
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It's where I hadn't seen the behavior that I found that difficult.
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And I guess the other thing for me was when you had to do media appearances and the stakes were really high.
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And, you say something wrong and all of a sudden it's gonna get amplified and played back they're the two things I found difficult where I didn't have the evidence for something and where the risk was very very high
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Yeah.
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And James, for you,
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Well, as it much as it might be a surprise, I have never by any organization whatsoever asked to be, been asked to be a media spokesman.
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So I've
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funny that.
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had that difficult
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I.
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Yeah.
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Now when we started talking about this, I after admit on my first Amazon, bloody hell, here we go again.
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This is just one of those dreadful HR.
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Courses that you've got to go on about difficult conversations, invariably linked to some stupid HR process, which forces you have to have difficult conversations'cause you're putting people into difficult boxes.
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So that's where I started with this.
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However, I know Amanda, what you're gonna say.
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You're gonna tell me I've gotta get down off me ladder.
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So we'll get into that very shortly.
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Yeah, that, and that was a really, really good example of you at the top of your ladder, James.
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So maybe we should just spend a moment on that in the context of difficult conversations either of you come across that tool before.
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The ladder of inference is often referred to as.
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Heard of.
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Heard of it.
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Lou used it a little bit, but not, I wouldn't say I was very familiar with it.
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Yes.
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And you referenced it there, James, in your get off the top of your ladder, is it one of those terms you've heard but actually not looked into?
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I have actually heard, I have actually written something about the ladder of intimate, so I know all about it.
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I just, I just don't
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Yeah.
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very well.
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Yeah, so for your listeners now we're, we're in the space really of that where, where we're making those two distinctions, a difficult message and much more in the relationship space.
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If we think about the relationship space, ladder of inference a model created by.
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Developed by Chris Arris, who was a business theory theorist and organizational behavioral specialist.
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And he, he referred to the ladder of inference.
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And what that helps you with is to think about how the situation that you find yourself in, in a relationship or conversation, maybe with individuals or with teams, how your thinking.
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About what's happening escalates quite quickly up what he calls the ladder to the very top, where you then start to behave according to your thinking.
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And so if you picture quite literally a ladder, think about the rungs of the ladder right at the bottom of that ladder.
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In the conversation you have what we would, he would call the.
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The observable data, what actually happened, what you could see or was, or, or hear what someone actually said or did.
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So the data, the information, What happens then is when we're in conversation, when we're in a dynamic with other people.
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We very quickly work up the rings of the ladder.
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So we experience the event or the situation, we actually select the data, what happened, and we choose very, very quickly what our experience of that data is.
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So let's say an email was sent right at the bottom of the ladder.
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We then noticed that there was a delay.
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In a response.
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So already we go, oh, that's interesting.
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There's a delay Further up the ladder, there's then an interpretation of the data that we've selected.
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So we will apply a meaning or we'll assign some kind of attribution to it.
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So the, the email came late.
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That means they're ignoring me.
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That means they don't want to reply to me.
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And then attached to that, at the next rung of our letter, we make some assumptions around that.
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The belief that we're going to apply if they're ignoring me, they haven't replied, they're avoiding me.
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It's because they don't respect my time.
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don't think I'm important enough.
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They've deprioritized me.
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So the assumption is attached.
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To which further up the ladder very, very quickly, we then draw alu a conclusion and we make a judgment about them.
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So that's because they're unreliable, that's because they're not trustworthy.
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And again, once again, then add into that any beliefs that we've had about this kind of behavior in the past.
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So reinforced by the views that we hold already, data or experiences that we've had previously.
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And finally, top of ladder, which is what James was talking about.
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observation, our reaction, or the action that we take having passed very, very quickly through all of those steps.
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Is this making sense so
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So just, check that I understand.
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So at the bottom, you've got the facts, and then What happened as you go up the ladder, you're blowing everything out of proportions and talking about your perceptions and layering stories onto it.
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And at the top of the ladder is the outcome is as a result of doing that, you now behave in a certain.
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way Which actually can be quite removed from the facts because it's all about the stories that you've told as you've gone up the up the ladder.
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Perfect
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Well, I, let me give you an example, not one that covers me in glory.
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The other day I was trying to pull into my drive.
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I've got this stupid big Volvo, which has got the turning circle of the small ship right?
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And some idiot taxi driver had parked across the road, the other side of me.
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So I'm struggling to get in, so I have to do like a 27 point turn to get into my driveway.
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So I'm not in the best of mood to start off with.
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Anyway.
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Then, so doing this turn, I'll start to reverse back towards this taxi driver and he honks his horn.
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Now, all of a sudden now, yeah, the action, he honked his horn.
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My belief, that's aggressive.
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People who honk their horns are aggressive.
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Before I knew it, I'm out the car and I'm screaming at this clown who's in, parked across my drive and dah, dah, dah.
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And, and he at me and he said, I'm sorry, mate.
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I believe the reverse.
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At which point I then fell pretty bad.
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When did you do that for your prep and fell back down the ladder very quickly In ba head.
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I mean, I looked like a complete pillar, but it's just, that is the case in point isn't you see something, you take a different meaning from it and you know it triggers you and off you go.
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So there you go.
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How's that for a
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That's really good.
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example,
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Really good example.
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And so why that's.
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my wife didn't think it was a
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Well, I think in, in your, your, the other example, Amanda, that James is quoting himself was the, his response to your question about difficult conversations.
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So straight away he started on the, it's all, HR courses, it's a, it's conversations that HR calls that make it difficult.
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They don't need to be difficult, so that's taking a question and then building and building and building, and the outcome is, well, it's all nonsense, isn't it?
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When actually the reality is some conversations are difficult.
00:15:53.758 --> 00:15:56.863
And, and the point in difficult conversations is that we don't notice that.
00:15:57.283 --> 00:15:58.783
So we don't see that happening.
00:15:59.562 --> 00:16:02.383
don't, it occurs and we act out of the top of our ladder.
00:16:02.383 --> 00:16:03.043
Hey, guess what?
00:16:03.043 --> 00:16:10.363
When we're talking to someone else, interestingly enough, they will also have then a reaction in reaction to our behavior.
00:16:10.633 --> 00:16:17.322
And so if you're not very careful, you can see how quickly that act escalates into an argument or, or a conflict situation.
00:16:18.753 --> 00:16:31.148
It is like, it's like a game of snakes and ladders, but where ladders are all bad'cause you're just going up them and you've got to find the way of going down things and deescalating things down to focus on the the facts.
00:16:31.628 --> 00:16:32.138
Exactly.
00:16:33.482 --> 00:16:40.623
Our podcast is all about helping people, teams, and organizations perform better and enjoy work more.
00:16:41.852 --> 00:16:49.743
I get as far as to say that we believe that everyone and every team has the potential to transform their performance by optimizing what they currently do.
00:16:49.982 --> 00:16:56.732
So if you'd like to discuss how we can help you transform your performance, then get in touch or maybe check out our website.
00:16:57.452 --> 00:17:01.263
We also do speaking events, mentoring advice, work as well.
00:17:04.107 --> 00:17:08.103
So I totally get the concept very good at really that.
00:17:08.307 --> 00:17:08.577
Yep.
00:17:08.663 --> 00:17:09.982
what do I do differently then?
00:17:10.198 --> 00:17:10.377
So
00:17:10.462 --> 00:17:10.583
I.
00:17:11.218 --> 00:17:12.478
yeah, that's a really, really good question.
00:17:12.478 --> 00:17:16.798
And so that's why it's really quite interesting when we look at difficult conversations.
00:17:16.798 --> 00:17:18.748
What made this conversation difficult?
00:17:19.917 --> 00:17:20.938
of the ladder is interesting.
00:17:20.938 --> 00:17:21.837
People can kind of.
00:17:22.557 --> 00:17:24.928
to grips with that really, really quite quickly.
00:17:25.317 --> 00:17:29.998
And then the job is walking them back down the ladder, essentially.
00:17:29.998 --> 00:17:37.077
So if you can have people buy into the notion that actually I've processed that very, very quickly, I've attached a lot of assumptions and beliefs to it.
00:17:38.292 --> 00:17:46.663
Let's go right back to what, what actually happened, what was actually said, and then very more accurately process.
00:17:46.692 --> 00:17:48.942
What else could be true in this scenario.
00:17:49.032 --> 00:17:50.833
Now, that's a very rational process.
00:17:50.833 --> 00:17:58.303
I realize it's not something that's easy to do when there's a lot of emotion attached, but as a tool for helping people to deescalate.
00:17:59.262 --> 00:18:02.893
What they perceive to be difficult or even to prepare for a difficult conversation.
00:18:02.893 --> 00:18:18.083
You know, understanding what's my normal reaction or how do I normally react when I'm exposed to this personal situation Using the metaphor of the ladder, it, it's a helpful way to explore what's going on or what typically is the trigger in this conversation for me.
00:18:18.563 --> 00:18:23.813
And then how could it be interpreted differently if we walk right back to the, the data itself.
00:18:24.667 --> 00:18:36.698
And if I think back Amanda, one of the examples I would have is you know, there might be an individual that I worked with that I think was very manipulative, and therefore every interaction we had, whether it's an email.
00:18:37.117 --> 00:18:39.067
Or a face-to-face or whatever it was.
00:18:39.428 --> 00:18:41.137
I always had that in the back of my head.
00:18:41.317 --> 00:18:46.298
So I was always interpreting their behavior through, this is manipulative, isn't it?
00:18:46.748 --> 00:18:50.857
And not actually sticking to the facts of what they said and what they communicated?
00:18:51.458 --> 00:18:56.768
And I was thinking more about my interpretation of it and that blinded me.
00:18:56.857 --> 00:19:03.488
So rather than thinking they're difficult, they're manipulative, actually deal with the facts of the interaction.
00:19:04.238 --> 00:19:15.038
Yes, I once went through some training, so I was in the training myself, which I thought was really powerful by same group, by Chris Arris and, and a team of people.
00:19:15.428 --> 00:19:21.337
One of the exercises he had us do then something called a left-hand column exercise.
00:19:21.397 --> 00:19:22.807
Really useful actually when you.
00:19:23.813 --> 00:19:32.393
In a, I find myself in a difficult situation with this person quite regularly, and that's almost to write a script.
00:19:32.393 --> 00:19:38.512
So take a piece of paper, divide it in two on the left hand side, write down what was said in this conversation.
00:19:38.932 --> 00:19:43.553
Record the actual words, what they said, what you said, what they said, what you said.
00:19:43.942 --> 00:19:47.603
And in the right hand side actually, how did you feel?
00:19:49.178 --> 00:19:50.317
What did you believe?
00:19:50.317 --> 00:19:52.627
What was your reaction in response to?
00:19:52.678 --> 00:19:56.728
It's quite an analyst approach, I would guess, James, you'll have to tell me whether you agree with that or not.
00:19:56.728 --> 00:20:00.327
But actually you write down the conversations, the script in the right hand column.
00:20:00.327 --> 00:20:04.347
Then you write what your emotion was, what your reaction was, what interpretations you made.
00:20:04.768 --> 00:20:07.167
So you kind of lay out on a page almost.
00:20:08.712 --> 00:20:17.353
That pool of data that we were talking about, what was actually said, and then your interpretation of it, and you can examine then in that way, what's triggering me in this?
00:20:17.353 --> 00:20:24.792
What fear, what belief is this creating in me that I'm acting out of as I say whatever I say next.
00:20:24.792 --> 00:20:26.262
And sometimes that can be, I come back.
00:20:26.682 --> 00:20:27.823
In full on fight mode.
00:20:27.823 --> 00:20:35.173
So I'm in a conflict or an argument situation, it could be actually at that point I felt fearful, so I withdrew.
00:20:35.353 --> 00:20:37.153
I don't say anything at that point.
00:20:38.083 --> 00:20:41.893
Going through that analytical process, I'm sorry, helps you to understand.
00:20:42.718 --> 00:20:47.458
Where might I make different choices where I'm, where might I alter my behavior?
00:20:47.488 --> 00:20:51.718
'cause to your point in the last podcast, we can't change the other person, just ourselves.
00:20:52.077 --> 00:21:00.147
Where am I doing or taking a a, making a reaction that is helpful to me and influencing the, this conversation in the way that I'd like it to go.
00:21:00.147 --> 00:21:02.097
Where might I make different choices?
00:21:02.548 --> 00:21:08.248
So again, it, it takes time, it takes a little bit of thinking about, but actually it's really useful for examining.
00:21:09.028 --> 00:21:09.387
happen?
00:21:09.387 --> 00:21:10.978
What's really happening here?
00:21:11.758 --> 00:21:12.478
that make sense?
00:21:12.853 --> 00:21:17.262
Yeah, and a lots of it is just about being able to understand yourself.
00:21:18.732 --> 00:21:19.153
Yeah.
00:21:19.153 --> 00:21:20.833
And what, well, and what triggers you
00:21:20.948 --> 00:21:21.188
Yeah.
00:21:21.393 --> 00:21:21.613
Yes.
00:21:21.702 --> 00:21:25.633
then so, and then they're interesting coming back to my, in contra to with a taxi driver.
00:21:25.813 --> 00:21:26.383
I dunno why.
00:21:26.383 --> 00:21:28.873
It is probably something deep and meaningful in my history.
00:21:29.113 --> 00:21:32.173
People honking their horns and just think it's rude and it just sets me off.
00:21:32.413 --> 00:21:32.563
But
00:21:32.577 --> 00:21:32.637
Yeah.
00:21:32.893 --> 00:21:37.032
being aware of that fact not responding to it is a really.
00:21:38.617 --> 00:21:39.583
A powerful thing,
00:21:40.633 --> 00:21:42.498
Gets you to Try something different.
00:21:42.887 --> 00:21:43.337
Yeah,
00:21:43.518 --> 00:21:56.407
So we talked about two types of, of difficult conversations that's the relationship and, we've got the ladder inference and the analyzing, the conversation pattern and your triggers.
00:21:56.857 --> 00:21:59.917
But the second part was difficult messages.
00:22:00.298 --> 00:22:03.657
So what's your, take on difficult messages than Amanda?
00:22:04.288 --> 00:22:04.768
Yes.
00:22:04.768 --> 00:22:06.657
So yeah, thank you for that.
00:22:06.657 --> 00:22:20.458
So for me, again, linked to everything that you were saying in the last podcast about deep caring, about what's my intention as I go into this conversation, the tips, I think fall into.
00:22:21.643 --> 00:22:25.002
Four buckets one before the conversation.
00:22:25.002 --> 00:22:29.742
So how, how do I get clear about what the purpose of this conversation is?
00:22:29.813 --> 00:22:34.343
Can I be clean and precise about what it is I'm trying to get across?
00:22:35.252 --> 00:22:40.103
Then knowing your own likely triggers in that conversation.
00:22:40.103 --> 00:22:45.383
What might show up for me and how do I want to be, if that shows up in this conversation?
00:22:45.682 --> 00:22:48.772
And then arguably, what's the structure going to look like?
00:22:48.772 --> 00:22:51.563
So gonna be private conversation?
00:22:51.563 --> 00:22:57.988
Do I need to make sure that it's scheduled to happen, know, in, outta sight and out of earshot of other people.
00:22:58.377 --> 00:23:00.028
Where are we gonna place ourselves?
00:23:00.028 --> 00:23:01.917
How's the, how's the person going to react?
00:23:01.917 --> 00:23:05.278
When I say I want to talk to them about this, what's their emotional state?
00:23:05.577 --> 00:23:08.698
Are they ready right now to hear what I want to talk to them about?
00:23:09.178 --> 00:23:13.798
And then what's the style I'm gonna adopt as I get into that conversation?
00:23:13.798 --> 00:23:15.387
Am I going to be very matter of fact?
00:23:16.532 --> 00:23:20.163
clinical about it is, am I going to show up with the caring or support?
00:23:20.343 --> 00:23:24.998
How am I gonna be So preparation, first of all, does that resonate with you?
00:23:26.167 --> 00:23:26.557
Yeah.
00:23:26.607 --> 00:23:32.788
We touched on it in the past, you know, just thinking about the conversation or the questions you're gonna ask.
00:23:33.758 --> 00:23:43.657
We just go into these things and if you spend less time worrying about or dreading it and more time planning what you're actually gonna do in it.
00:23:43.837 --> 00:23:52.387
So it's just shifting that energy from worry and anxiety to actually a positive action I can take is to prepare that conversation.
00:23:52.942 --> 00:23:53.843
Exactly that.
00:23:54.548 --> 00:23:57.772
And about risk of banging on about our old favorite, but purpose.
00:23:57.772 --> 00:23:59.722
Whatcha are you having the conversation for?
00:23:59.752 --> 00:23:59.972
Yeah.
00:24:00.202 --> 00:24:01.042
exactly that.
00:24:01.042 --> 00:24:04.432
what, am I actually trying to achieve through this?
00:24:05.182 --> 00:24:11.573
moving into the actual conversation itself, so starting with what's the environment we're going to create here?
00:24:12.442 --> 00:24:17.873
How can you create safety, psychological safety in that conversation?
00:24:18.982 --> 00:24:21.202
Using I statements owning your message.
00:24:21.202 --> 00:24:29.992
So particularly the feedback scenario I thought was really interesting that you were describing earlier, Jimmy, if it's other people's observation, is a lot harder.
00:24:29.992 --> 00:24:30.563
Of course it
00:24:30.577 --> 00:24:30.867
Yeah.
00:24:30.893 --> 00:24:32.722
what's the I, what's your ownership?
00:24:32.722 --> 00:24:35.512
What's that going to look like in this particular conversation?
00:24:35.573 --> 00:24:45.472
Not that whole, everyone says this about you, scenario that you are bringing, but actually how I, I want to achieve, what I want to discuss.
00:24:46.113 --> 00:24:55.143
In my example when I could say I, it was incredibly easier than when I was saying I, I didn't have the firsthand.
00:24:55.442 --> 00:24:58.173
Almost rever the reverse supports what you're saying.
00:24:58.502 --> 00:25:02.462
If I had seen the behavior and I could say I've seen when that happens.
00:25:02.827 --> 00:25:03.167
Yeah.
00:25:03.393 --> 00:25:08.702
That didn't feel like a difficult conversation to me where I hadn't seen it and I couldn't use the eye.
00:25:09.928 --> 00:25:11.008
That felt difficult for me.
00:25:11.653 --> 00:25:13.153
Yeah, that.
00:25:14.053 --> 00:25:17.502
The other tip, plain and clear language.
00:25:17.992 --> 00:25:26.313
To your point about sort of what, what James would call an HR driven scenario, but, let, let's not bring language that people don't understand.
00:25:26.583 --> 00:25:28.262
Like what is this conversation all about?
00:25:28.262 --> 00:25:30.962
Can we use complain, straightforward language?
00:25:31.173 --> 00:25:43.083
Let's not fluff it up with lots of, oh, you know, how are you, what we are doing here, and all that kind of stuff, which is meant to soften, but actually be really direct, plain, straightforward language.
00:25:43.323 --> 00:25:43.593
Yeah.
00:25:44.343 --> 00:25:45.333
that making sense?
00:25:45.597 --> 00:25:45.887
Yeah.
00:25:46.053 --> 00:25:47.762
Then listening deeply.
00:25:49.097 --> 00:25:50.567
At that point, stop talking.
00:25:50.748 --> 00:25:51.708
What's going on?
00:25:51.708 --> 00:25:52.817
What's the reaction?
00:25:53.087 --> 00:26:01.788
Pauses when needed to let the person then react, say, ask questions, have let them be present in this conversation.
00:26:01.788 --> 00:26:02.958
Let them be contributing.
00:26:03.288 --> 00:26:05.597
Let they be silent for a while as well, not rushing.
00:26:05.597 --> 00:26:06.887
What's on your mind, what are you thinking?
00:26:07.157 --> 00:26:09.948
But having, giving them space, letting them process.
00:26:10.968 --> 00:26:14.748
and then something really important about not trying to fix emotion.
00:26:14.807 --> 00:26:19.097
So if you've been in a situation which difficult, you're gonna land a difficult message.
00:26:19.097 --> 00:26:24.768
IE one that has the potential to hurt someone or create fear, knows?
00:26:24.917 --> 00:26:27.288
Allow that reaction.
00:26:27.347 --> 00:26:28.938
You don't have to soften that.
00:26:28.988 --> 00:26:31.117
Acknowledging and empathizing that that's occurring.
00:26:31.117 --> 00:26:32.107
You don't have to fix it.
00:26:32.107 --> 00:26:35.678
You can't make it better because actually it's been created by the scenario.
00:26:35.678 --> 00:26:38.438
But you, you can be present to that emotion,
00:26:39.262 --> 00:26:39.532
Yeah.
00:26:39.896 --> 00:26:41.096
which is not always easy.
00:26:41.517 --> 00:26:41.787
No.
00:26:41.906 --> 00:26:44.126
to find in difficult conversations is people.
00:26:45.761 --> 00:26:46.001
Wanna
00:26:46.017 --> 00:26:47.336
The message, difficult message.
00:26:47.396 --> 00:26:47.727
Yeah.
00:26:47.846 --> 00:26:50.727
And then either wanna run, extract themselves or make it all right.
00:26:51.086 --> 00:26:53.967
And actually that's conflicting and confusing and, and not helpful.
00:26:55.596 --> 00:27:09.896
Something then about next steps, if that's appropriate, even if that's, let's follow up on this conversation tomorrow when you've had time to think about it or next week an invitation to, would you like to talk about some options right now?
00:27:10.616 --> 00:27:13.467
Really, really helpful, particularly in those difficult, some conversations.
00:27:13.467 --> 00:27:16.886
Say you were having to do something as extreme as fire someone, let them go.
00:27:17.906 --> 00:27:27.267
just creating space for them to come back to the conversation when they've had time to process it that conversation makes the, the initial one that little bit easier.
00:27:27.642 --> 00:27:31.392
And just on the next steps, it's just being clear about what's been agreed as well.
00:27:31.392 --> 00:27:43.031
So when you've had a difficult conversation, so for example, talking out to somebody about their behavior, have they actually really understood it and is there a commitment to doing something different in the future?
00:27:43.332 --> 00:27:43.842
Good point.
00:27:43.842 --> 00:27:44.737
Good Absolutely.
00:27:44.737 --> 00:27:53.257
So in that kind of in those process steps, yes, the bit before, the bit during the conversation, then what the next steps will be, and absolutely take your point there.
00:27:53.287 --> 00:27:58.146
What's gonna happen behaviorally, what are you gonna commit to, or what's gonna happen next in the process?
00:27:58.146 --> 00:27:58.836
Both of those things.
00:27:58.842 --> 00:27:59.737
Really, really important.
00:28:00.896 --> 00:28:09.656
And then afterwards, for yourself, as much as anything, is reflection time, pausing to say, how did that conversation go?
00:28:09.997 --> 00:28:10.491
What went well?
00:28:11.467 --> 00:28:14.636
might I learn from how that conversation went?
00:28:15.446 --> 00:28:31.666
All goes for helping, doesn't necessarily remove that kind of, the perception of difficulty, but actually it helps you to manage that difficult conversation more effectively, I would say, and as a, as a process for preparing yourself and then learning from afterwards.
00:28:32.344 --> 00:28:37.983
So very, very comprehensive steps on how to actually deliver the message.
00:28:38.241 --> 00:28:40.696
So that's very helpful, Amanda.
00:28:40.696 --> 00:28:45.166
Presumably there's something we could put in the show notes and if I add those, people can have a look at it if they want
00:28:45.241 --> 00:28:47.942
Yeah, just some, a little flow for that.
00:28:48.092 --> 00:28:48.301
Yeah.
00:28:48.751 --> 00:28:48.961
Yeah.
00:28:49.021 --> 00:28:49.251
Let's do that.
00:28:51.116 --> 00:28:52.106
We hope you're enjoying
00:28:52.106 --> 00:28:54.237
and getting value from listening to our podcast.
00:28:55.136 --> 00:28:59.967
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00:29:00.507 --> 00:29:09.537
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00:29:09.626 --> 00:29:16.196
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00:29:18.464 --> 00:29:19.005
Excellent.
00:29:19.244 --> 00:29:23.984
So that's the messages, that's the relationship stuff.
00:29:24.045 --> 00:29:29.454
One of the things that strikes me, Amanda, I've been going through this with you, that.
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:45.450
A lot of what you think about when it comes to either difficult people or difficult conversations, a lot of it is what's in your control and what's in your head, and what's in your head influences whether a conversation or a person is perceived to be difficult.
00:29:45.825 --> 00:29:46.214
Yeah.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:47.430
that fair comment?
00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:52.259
Yeah, I think it is, and again, back to the training from the fabulous Mr.
00:29:52.259 --> 00:30:00.944
Arduous that I was lucky enough to go through, is a model that I've I've heard referenced many, many times is kind of two mindsets.
00:30:01.755 --> 00:30:05.565
you think of the first one, very often when we are in conversation with people.
00:30:06.869 --> 00:30:09.690
We start or we bring to the conversation.
00:30:10.019 --> 00:30:15.539
Let's imagine a work scenario where I've gotta come and present to you two guys and you are difficult.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:16.559
I'm on your team.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:17.549
I want us to do something..
00:30:17.549 --> 00:30:22.950
So I've already got this whole story in my head that this is going to be a difficult show.
00:30:23.009 --> 00:30:24.240
It's a difficult conversation.
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.630
So I come in from the mindset of I've done some work.
00:30:27.944 --> 00:30:29.444
I think this is what we need to do.
00:30:29.625 --> 00:30:32.355
It's my job now to come and convince you.
00:30:33.015 --> 00:30:41.115
So I'm ready and armed with whatever you throw at me, I'm gonna bring my defensive re reasoning.
00:30:41.414 --> 00:30:45.585
I just justify why I think it needs to be the way it needs to think.
00:30:45.585 --> 00:30:50.984
My job is about persuading you and convincing you, and.
00:30:51.990 --> 00:30:58.299
Pretty much, unless I get all, get through all of that and survive all of that, then I've not been successful model one
00:30:58.434 --> 00:31:01.555
what you really saying is you're coming into it with a very combative
00:31:01.619 --> 00:31:01.910
Yeah.
00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:12.190
coming in with a position which I am holding onto and going to defend and you two I know are just gonna try and shoot me now and all the ways you can.
00:31:12.190 --> 00:31:13.269
So I'm ready for that.
00:31:13.394 --> 00:31:13.615
Yes.
00:31:14.259 --> 00:31:23.980
Essentially that, and I'm overstating it, but it's really interesting if you think about what is the mindset I'm taking into this conversation very often, that's what it looks like.
00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:24.250
I'm
00:31:24.430 --> 00:31:24.589
Yeah.
00:31:24.670 --> 00:31:33.190
my job to persuade you is an alternative, which is a much more conducive to productive conversations, which is that.
00:31:33.910 --> 00:31:39.099
Partly I have, I have a great idea here, but I don't know the whole story.
00:31:39.099 --> 00:32:00.039
So I'm gonna come to this conversation with what I believe we should do based on the information that I have, but it's not the whole story being in dialogue with you, by being in an open, sharing reasoning, of inquiry where I test my thinking with you.
00:32:00.789 --> 00:32:02.650
add and build my thinking.
00:32:02.650 --> 00:32:08.529
So instead now of you bringing your criticism, what happens is the experience I create is Jimmy James.
00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:11.650
What do you think about this notion that I'm bringing?
00:32:11.980 --> 00:32:14.494
What would have to be true for this to be.
00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:16.869
What am I not seeing?
00:32:17.140 --> 00:32:21.730
So the mindset now I'm bringing not so much as convincing, but it's about collaborating.
00:32:22.029 --> 00:32:28.869
It's about inviting you to join with me in actually exploring the premise I'm holding.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.795
You may bring extra information that when I know it might.
00:32:32.190 --> 00:32:39.630
In fact, change my idea, or actually you build my idea and we'll cover any gaps that I've got.
00:32:39.630 --> 00:32:41.670
So we end up with an even better product.
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:48.119
So what you've moved into is more of a learning conversation, a stance of.
00:32:48.299 --> 00:33:01.980
Inquiry and invitation to input and collaborate and results often is much stronger relationships, a high trust, psychologically safe environment because now I'm not convincing you, it's an invitation to join with me.
00:33:02.069 --> 00:33:04.500
When we join, I learn something.
00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:11.230
You learn something in a relationship, feels anything but difficult, feels much more generative and enjoyable, arguably.
00:33:11.815 --> 00:33:13.140
And I, and I re it.
00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:25.799
It does, and I reckon if you could think back to the conversations, the people that you feel difficult, I, I think you, to your point, you would have more of the model one combative.
00:33:26.765 --> 00:33:38.335
Mindset and you'd have approached it with that,, but if you approached it with a collaborative mindset, would then the difficult person, difficult relationship, difficult messages, difficult conversation.
00:33:39.265 --> 00:33:40.914
Would it, it would be fundamentally different.
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:46.640
Yeah, the other person feels heard, invited to contribute.
00:33:46.910 --> 00:33:48.470
You can relax a little bit.
00:33:48.470 --> 00:33:53.569
'cause now their observational input doesn't feel like a criticism, a critique of you.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.400
It feels like a contribution to the work that joint problem solving.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.579
And that's something you can influence by your approach.
00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:05.240
So, so in summary, if you.
00:34:06.575 --> 00:34:13.824
Think about the ladder of inference and how you're going up and down your ladder and what's the facts that sit at the bottom of your ladder.
00:34:14.155 --> 00:34:32.195
If you then do the steps that you talked about in terms of preparing for the conversation, doing the conversation, and reflecting the, on the conversation and think about how do you approach things with a collaborative mindset rather than a combative to our point at the start.
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.710
Difficult conversations would now not be difficult.
00:34:38.030 --> 00:34:39.380
So that's what we promised.
00:34:39.619 --> 00:34:44.659
We said Amanda would come along and share some insights that would make difficult conversations easy.
00:34:44.929 --> 00:34:47.139
So I think she's done a, a cracking job on, on that.
00:34:48.295 --> 00:34:48.744
Great.
00:34:48.744 --> 00:34:50.844
It's been a pleasure joining with you on that.
00:34:50.844 --> 00:34:52.045
Not scary at all.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:54.130
Say it like immediate Amanda.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:57.940
She's approaching it with a collaborative mindset though, isn't she?
00:34:58.159 --> 00:34:58.929
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:00.309
Excellent.
00:35:00.309 --> 00:35:00.460
Alright.
00:35:00.550 --> 00:35:01.150
Lovely.
00:35:01.300 --> 00:35:02.409
Thanks very much, Amanda.
00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:03.940
Thanks everyone.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:04.570
to you later.
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:05.590
Cheers.
00:35:05.590 --> 00:35:06.340
Now, rah.
00:35:06.782 --> 00:35:13.922
Our podcast is all about helping people, teams, and organizations perform better and enjoy work more.
00:35:15.152 --> 00:35:23.041
I get as far as to say that we believe that everyone and every team has the potential to transform their performance by optimizing what they currently do.
00:35:23.282 --> 00:35:30.032
So if you'd like to discuss how we can help you transform your performance, then get in touch or maybe check out our website.
00:35:30.751 --> 00:35:34.561
We also do speaking events, mentoring advice, work as well.
00:00:03.270 --> 00:00:04.589
Hello, I'm James.
00:00:05.070 --> 00:00:11.550
Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.
00:00:15.416 --> 00:00:15.851
Good afternoon.
00:00:15.910 --> 00:00:16.131
How.
00:00:17.481 --> 00:00:17.940
Hi James.
00:00:18.146 --> 00:00:18.986
I'm doing well.
00:00:19.315 --> 00:00:19.545
How are you?
00:00:20.681 --> 00:00:21.911
I'm doing fabulously.
00:00:21.911 --> 00:00:22.510
Thank you very much.
00:00:22.721 --> 00:00:24.216
What we talking about today.
00:00:24.506 --> 00:00:30.385
Well today we have a follow up from our podcast we did a few weeks ago on difficult people.
00:00:30.385 --> 00:00:36.265
We are talking about actual difficult conversations that we face at work'cause we all face them.
00:00:37.271 --> 00:00:38.981
And often outside work as well.
00:00:39.371 --> 00:00:41.831
And most of us dread those conversations.
00:00:41.831 --> 00:00:42.970
We find them challenging.
00:00:43.180 --> 00:00:46.901
They're part of the work that we hate and that we don't feel we do particularly well.
00:00:47.170 --> 00:00:51.761
Well, today, that all changes and we are gonna help you think, plan, and act differently.
00:00:52.121 --> 00:00:54.040
Fortunately, you're not reliant on me and James.
00:00:54.040 --> 00:00:54.701
We have got.
00:00:54.930 --> 00:01:01.951
Amanda Gilbert, who's a learning and development guru, who is going to share some ways of thinking and acting differently.
00:01:01.951 --> 00:01:04.441
That will make difficult conversations easy.
00:01:05.501 --> 00:01:09.115
I thought you were gonna say she's a bonafide, difficult person and that's why we've got
00:01:09.150 --> 00:01:14.846
Now, that's why we've got you, James, you, you are going, she's going to do some live management of difficult conversations with.
00:01:15.971 --> 00:01:18.251
Do coaching.
00:01:18.301 --> 00:01:18.980
dreading it already.
00:01:21.055 --> 00:01:21.415
Anyhow.
00:01:21.415 --> 00:01:23.066
Before we get into that, James, what have you been up to?
00:01:24.816 --> 00:01:28.835
I have mainly been choosing university courses this year.
00:01:29.016 --> 00:01:31.506
Oh, so this week my daughter wants to go to
00:01:31.745 --> 00:01:34.281
Well, we're onto, you're onto a, like a tour of the uk.
00:01:35.046 --> 00:01:41.376
yes, we are, we're on a tour of the uk but now we're on a tour of all these places where you can't actually do the flipping course she wants to do.
00:01:41.706 --> 00:01:45.126
So she's decided she wants to do economics with French, with being a.
00:01:45.436 --> 00:01:46.245
Key word there.
00:01:46.245 --> 00:01:49.665
It's 75% economics, 25% French.
00:01:49.665 --> 00:01:51.885
That's all sounds very good until you work out.
00:01:51.885 --> 00:01:55.275
There are only two places in the country she can legitimately do that.
00:01:55.725 --> 00:01:56.506
One is Liverpool.
00:01:56.506 --> 00:01:58.695
She don't wanna go there because I went to Liverpool.
00:01:58.695 --> 00:02:03.286
So, no, that's just definitely not cool and neither one's not a sure it hell doesn't wanna go there.
00:02:03.615 --> 00:02:07.605
So we've been having some pretty difficult conversations in our household about university choices.
00:02:07.605 --> 00:02:07.695
So
00:02:07.911 --> 00:02:08.420
Excellent.
00:02:08.485 --> 00:02:08.536
what's
00:02:08.691 --> 00:02:08.901
Well,
00:02:09.105 --> 00:02:09.466
life.
00:02:09.711 --> 00:02:19.980
well, I'm very proud of you, James talking about economics with French, without getting into the subject of French economics, where I'm sure you could have made all sorts of inappropriate
00:02:20.306 --> 00:02:21.776
Anyway, so that's what I've been up to.
00:02:21.776 --> 00:02:22.376
How about you?
00:02:22.390 --> 00:02:25.330
Well, I have finished a book, James, which
00:02:25.466 --> 00:02:25.765
a whole
00:02:25.841 --> 00:02:28.480
a whole one, and it was a real hard copy book.
00:02:28.496 --> 00:02:30.746
When you say you finished it, did you listen to it or did
00:02:30.790 --> 00:02:31.330
I read it.
00:02:31.330 --> 00:02:32.651
It was a physical book.
00:02:32.770 --> 00:02:42.941
Anyhow, it's a recommendation I've got for everyone now, and it is called Invisible Women, and it's by Caroline Cardo Perez.
00:02:43.911 --> 00:02:52.010
I recommend this book to every man who is either married to a woman, has daughters, or has a mother.
00:02:52.461 --> 00:02:53.510
And it should be read.
00:02:53.631 --> 00:02:54.950
It is incredible.
00:02:55.251 --> 00:02:57.681
The world is designed for men.
00:02:57.770 --> 00:03:01.070
It's so, it's not just the bias, it's the fact that.
00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:10.681
Data isn't collected about, gender splits so therefore the assumption in so many things is around the average man.
00:03:11.251 --> 00:03:19.420
And, I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't realized the extent of this And anyhow, this, she's got thousands of examples.
00:03:19.420 --> 00:03:23.475
They're everywhere But I thought I'd share just my, top three.
00:03:23.746 --> 00:03:25.816
I don't say favorites, but top three.
00:03:26.536 --> 00:03:36.820
First one is crash test Dummies in cars they're male shape, and therefore, as a result, safety of cars is designed to protect men.
00:03:37.061 --> 00:03:47.320
So women are 47% more likely to be injured and 17% more likely to die in a car even when they do eventually test.
00:03:47.751 --> 00:03:52.341
Using female crash test dummies, all they do is shrink the male one down.
00:03:52.341 --> 00:03:54.700
So it's even not anatomically correct.
00:03:55.300 --> 00:03:56.080
Second one.
00:03:56.591 --> 00:04:10.811
In medical research, women form less than 25% of early tests for new drugs, which means that as a result they're 50% to 75% more likely to react badly to new drugs that are on the market.
00:04:11.151 --> 00:04:12.526
Hence the thalidomide scandal.
00:04:12.526 --> 00:04:12.941
No doubt.
00:04:13.040 --> 00:04:24.860
And the final one I'll share, which it's not quite as life and death, but did you know that women's hands are on average two centimeters smaller than men's yet?
00:04:25.475 --> 00:04:31.146
Mobile phones have increased in physical size by 20% over the last decade.
00:04:31.425 --> 00:04:41.295
The reason why they've done that is because the use cases that they have for mobile phones are things like watching sports, gaming, stuff like that.
00:04:41.596 --> 00:04:45.165
And so they want a bigger screen fits in a man's hand so you can use it.
00:04:45.165 --> 00:04:47.146
One handed fits in a man's pocket.
00:04:47.206 --> 00:04:49.935
It doesn't fit in a woman's hand.
00:04:50.415 --> 00:04:52.365
It's more difficult to to use.
00:04:52.516 --> 00:04:57.076
They're more likely to get repetitive strain or drop it or have it stolen.
00:04:57.315 --> 00:05:06.185
Doesn't fit in a woman's pocket, but it's because it's designed using data around men and what men need and men's use cases.
00:05:06.485 --> 00:05:09.125
Anyway, I could go on all day, so I'll stop there.
00:05:09.456 --> 00:05:12.365
But this book, I honestly, you have to read.
00:05:12.365 --> 00:05:14.375
It is, it's incredible and scary.
00:05:15.795 --> 00:05:16.276
Very good.
00:05:16.545 --> 00:05:17.026
I will.
00:05:17.026 --> 00:05:18.466
I've got a wife and two daughters.
00:05:18.466 --> 00:05:19.216
I probably should.
00:05:20.011 --> 00:05:20.821
probably all read it.
00:05:21.300 --> 00:05:26.911
And Amanda is just nodding sagely because this is just how you experience the world.
00:05:26.971 --> 00:05:27.451
Welcome.
00:05:28.411 --> 00:05:29.161
Yes.
00:05:30.091 --> 00:05:31.800
Well, I, I wouldn't like to say welcome.
00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:35.071
I, it is more, I got a glimpse and it was scary.
00:05:35.175 --> 00:05:35.685
Anyhow.
00:05:35.685 --> 00:05:38.625
Amanda, What have you been up to since we since you last were with us?
00:05:38.625 --> 00:05:41.425
Yes, it's a, it's been a while, but what have I been up to?
00:05:41.425 --> 00:05:43.855
So, did I mention to you before that we had
00:05:43.855 --> 00:05:44.076
It.
00:05:44.096 --> 00:05:44.665
puppy?
00:05:44.755 --> 00:05:49.255
He's been around for a while, so he's taken over our lives in a way that's completely mad.
00:05:49.255 --> 00:05:52.526
I think we've reached that stage in life where we are getting a little bit older.
00:05:52.526 --> 00:05:56.005
So the last thing you want is the most energetic dog in the world in your life.
00:05:56.156 --> 00:05:57.406
And we seem to have.
00:05:57.490 --> 00:05:57.745
what you
00:05:57.860 --> 00:06:06.170
Fallen into the trap of yeah, God ourselves, a little caucus spaniel puppy who is the most energetic breed, but he's really so much fun.
00:06:06.170 --> 00:06:08.600
So that's probably one of the big pieces of news.
00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:10.521
of work around good stuff.
00:06:10.521 --> 00:06:22.156
Listening to you guys and your podcast, amused by your difficult people So excited to be in, in this conversation and adding some more tools and mindsets around actually.
00:06:22.565 --> 00:06:28.925
Conversations that we perceive to be difficult, how might you go about handling those with less difficulty?
00:06:29.690 --> 00:06:32.721
And difficult people was one of our.
00:06:33.086 --> 00:06:34.706
More popular episodes.
00:06:34.865 --> 00:06:35.196
Hmm.
00:06:35.495 --> 00:06:43.175
That's why we thought doing a follow up to actually talk about the, the actual nitty gritty of the conversation rather than the person.
00:06:43.505 --> 00:06:48.365
And we thought, who, who do we know who's an expert and good at talking about difficult people?
00:06:48.425 --> 00:06:50.196
Well, that, that's gotta be Amanda.
00:06:50.495 --> 00:06:51.786
So we struggle with it.
00:06:51.786 --> 00:06:53.196
So we thought we'd bring you in.
00:06:53.196 --> 00:06:56.865
So what's your perspective on, having difficult conversations?
00:06:57.415 --> 00:07:02.995
So it doesn't surprise me that that was a popular podcast edition in business.
00:07:02.995 --> 00:07:05.336
I think practically every business that I've.
00:07:05.786 --> 00:07:09.865
Worked in and operated from a learning and development consultancy perspective.
00:07:10.136 --> 00:07:12.805
It's one of those topics that comes up in all, all businesses.
00:07:12.805 --> 00:07:17.096
How do we have, how do we handle difficult conversations?
00:07:17.485 --> 00:07:24.886
Very often in the work environment, we rebrand that to how do we have productive conversations?
00:07:25.065 --> 00:07:46.591
So as I was preparing to come to this conversation, what occurred to me was actually there are probably two broad themes in that difficult conversations heading one where you might perceive the relationship as difficult or the interaction in the relationship system as being, as having conflict or potential conflict, which I think is what you were talking about.
00:07:47.286 --> 00:07:50.805
More in the, the difficult people episode.
00:07:50.805 --> 00:07:53.355
And so actually some more thinking about that.
00:07:53.805 --> 00:07:59.076
And then the other theme that came out a lot is training for, delivering a difficult message.
00:07:59.286 --> 00:08:01.040
How do you go about delivering, you know.
00:08:01.805 --> 00:08:02.375
Bad news.
00:08:02.375 --> 00:08:03.036
Arguably.
00:08:03.305 --> 00:08:08.946
So for me, coming into this, I'm sort, I'm, I'm bringing two dimensions of, of the difficulty.
00:08:09.276 --> 00:08:11.255
I think that sounds terrible.
00:08:11.586 --> 00:08:13.206
I don't wanna be bringing the difficulty.
00:08:13.206 --> 00:08:13.865
What I want to be
00:08:14.036 --> 00:08:16.165
Well, yeah, you're bringing solutions.
00:08:16.315 --> 00:08:22.196
Well, when, when we were thinking about expertise, you've trained people in having difficult conversations, right?
00:08:22.406 --> 00:08:23.516
So that makes you an expert.
00:08:23.665 --> 00:08:28.315
James and I have only created difficult conversations, so therefore, your street's ahead of us.
00:08:28.588 --> 00:08:36.533
So actually whilst we're on that topic then, what from your perspective, do you, would we, are you thinking about when you are thinking about difficult conversations?
00:08:36.702 --> 00:08:41.317
So I guess for, for me, when I think about difficult conversations, a couple that I've always.
00:08:42.727 --> 00:08:46.118
Always dreaded., I didn't necessarily.
00:08:47.123 --> 00:08:58.342
Have particular people that I dreaded, but the conversations I found most difficult was giving negative feedback to people where I hadn't, hadn't witnessed it firsthand.
00:08:58.393 --> 00:09:01.423
If I'd seen the behavior, I didn't have a problem with it.
00:09:01.692 --> 00:09:04.903
It's where I hadn't seen the behavior that I found that difficult.
00:09:05.143 --> 00:09:12.682
And I guess the other thing for me was when you had to do media appearances and the stakes were really high.
00:09:13.087 --> 00:09:24.447
And, you say something wrong and all of a sudden it's gonna get amplified and played back they're the two things I found difficult where I didn't have the evidence for something and where the risk was very very high
00:09:26.067 --> 00:09:26.427
Yeah.
00:09:26.427 --> 00:09:28.018
And James, for you,
00:09:29.097 --> 00:09:36.327
Well, as it much as it might be a surprise, I have never by any organization whatsoever asked to be, been asked to be a media spokesman.
00:09:36.447 --> 00:09:36.778
So I've
00:09:36.913 --> 00:09:37.503
funny that.
00:09:37.677 --> 00:09:38.398
had that difficult
00:09:38.488 --> 00:09:38.727
I.
00:09:39.268 --> 00:09:39.567
Yeah.
00:09:40.018 --> 00:09:45.327
Now when we started talking about this, I after admit on my first Amazon, bloody hell, here we go again.
00:09:45.687 --> 00:09:48.837
This is just one of those dreadful HR.
00:09:49.168 --> 00:10:01.138
Courses that you've got to go on about difficult conversations, invariably linked to some stupid HR process, which forces you have to have difficult conversations'cause you're putting people into difficult boxes.
00:10:01.347 --> 00:10:02.548
So that's where I started with this.
00:10:02.548 --> 00:10:04.768
However, I know Amanda, what you're gonna say.
00:10:04.768 --> 00:10:06.868
You're gonna tell me I've gotta get down off me ladder.
00:10:06.868 --> 00:10:08.837
So we'll get into that very shortly.
00:10:10.623 --> 00:10:15.482
Yeah, that, and that was a really, really good example of you at the top of your ladder, James.
00:10:15.482 --> 00:10:23.342
So maybe we should just spend a moment on that in the context of difficult conversations either of you come across that tool before.
00:10:23.383 --> 00:10:26.293
The ladder of inference is often referred to as.
00:10:26.773 --> 00:10:27.312
Heard of.
00:10:27.403 --> 00:10:28.003
Heard of it.
00:10:28.003 --> 00:10:30.947
Lou used it a little bit, but not, I wouldn't say I was very familiar with it.
00:10:31.932 --> 00:10:32.472
Yes.
00:10:32.923 --> 00:10:40.123
And you referenced it there, James, in your get off the top of your ladder, is it one of those terms you've heard but actually not looked into?
00:10:40.493 --> 00:10:44.243
I have actually heard, I have actually written something about the ladder of intimate, so I know all about it.
00:10:44.243 --> 00:10:45.048
I just, I just don't
00:10:45.518 --> 00:10:45.998
Yeah.
00:10:46.163 --> 00:10:46.613
very well.
00:10:46.898 --> 00:10:55.748
Yeah, so for your listeners now we're, we're in the space really of that where, where we're making those two distinctions, a difficult message and much more in the relationship space.
00:10:55.748 --> 00:11:01.087
If we think about the relationship space, ladder of inference a model created by.
00:11:01.383 --> 00:11:07.403
Developed by Chris Arris, who was a business theory theorist and organizational behavioral specialist.
00:11:07.403 --> 00:11:10.643
And he, he referred to the ladder of inference.
00:11:11.123 --> 00:11:23.682
And what that helps you with is to think about how the situation that you find yourself in, in a relationship or conversation, maybe with individuals or with teams, how your thinking.
00:11:24.418 --> 00:11:34.977
About what's happening escalates quite quickly up what he calls the ladder to the very top, where you then start to behave according to your thinking.
00:11:35.457 --> 00:11:42.018
And so if you picture quite literally a ladder, think about the rungs of the ladder right at the bottom of that ladder.
00:11:42.018 --> 00:11:44.607
In the conversation you have what we would, he would call the.
00:11:45.102 --> 00:11:53.533
The observable data, what actually happened, what you could see or was, or, or hear what someone actually said or did.
00:11:53.653 --> 00:12:02.043
So the data, the information, What happens then is when we're in conversation, when we're in a dynamic with other people.
00:12:03.207 --> 00:12:06.317
We very quickly work up the rings of the ladder.
00:12:06.317 --> 00:12:17.557
So we experience the event or the situation, we actually select the data, what happened, and we choose very, very quickly what our experience of that data is.
00:12:17.557 --> 00:12:21.097
So let's say an email was sent right at the bottom of the ladder.
00:12:22.057 --> 00:12:25.057
We then noticed that there was a delay.
00:12:25.268 --> 00:12:26.498
In a response.
00:12:26.498 --> 00:12:28.628
So already we go, oh, that's interesting.
00:12:28.628 --> 00:12:34.538
There's a delay Further up the ladder, there's then an interpretation of the data that we've selected.
00:12:34.538 --> 00:12:39.337
So we will apply a meaning or we'll assign some kind of attribution to it.
00:12:40.148 --> 00:12:41.707
So the, the email came late.
00:12:41.707 --> 00:12:42.967
That means they're ignoring me.
00:12:43.148 --> 00:12:45.488
That means they don't want to reply to me.
00:12:46.238 --> 00:12:50.528
And then attached to that, at the next rung of our letter, we make some assumptions around that.
00:12:50.798 --> 00:12:56.888
The belief that we're going to apply if they're ignoring me, they haven't replied, they're avoiding me.
00:12:56.888 --> 00:12:58.868
It's because they don't respect my time.
00:12:59.707 --> 00:13:01.388
don't think I'm important enough.
00:13:01.388 --> 00:13:02.857
They've deprioritized me.
00:13:02.947 --> 00:13:04.508
So the assumption is attached.
00:13:05.748 --> 00:13:11.868
To which further up the ladder very, very quickly, we then draw alu a conclusion and we make a judgment about them.
00:13:11.927 --> 00:13:16.548
So that's because they're unreliable, that's because they're not trustworthy.
00:13:16.977 --> 00:13:22.707
And again, once again, then add into that any beliefs that we've had about this kind of behavior in the past.
00:13:22.707 --> 00:13:29.447
So reinforced by the views that we hold already, data or experiences that we've had previously.
00:13:29.447 --> 00:13:32.807
And finally, top of ladder, which is what James was talking about.
00:13:33.658 --> 00:13:40.107
observation, our reaction, or the action that we take having passed very, very quickly through all of those steps.
00:13:40.107 --> 00:13:41.217
Is this making sense so
00:13:41.378 --> 00:13:43.008
So just, check that I understand.
00:13:43.028 --> 00:13:54.097
So at the bottom, you've got the facts, and then What happened as you go up the ladder, you're blowing everything out of proportions and talking about your perceptions and layering stories onto it.
00:13:54.368 --> 00:13:59.807
And at the top of the ladder is the outcome is as a result of doing that, you now behave in a certain.
00:13:59.807 --> 00:14:09.607
way Which actually can be quite removed from the facts because it's all about the stories that you've told as you've gone up the up the ladder.
00:14:10.008 --> 00:14:10.278
Perfect
00:14:10.518 --> 00:14:14.488
Well, I, let me give you an example, not one that covers me in glory.
00:14:16.477 --> 00:14:18.337
The other day I was trying to pull into my drive.
00:14:18.337 --> 00:14:23.197
I've got this stupid big Volvo, which has got the turning circle of the small ship right?
00:14:23.528 --> 00:14:27.427
And some idiot taxi driver had parked across the road, the other side of me.
00:14:27.427 --> 00:14:31.868
So I'm struggling to get in, so I have to do like a 27 point turn to get into my driveway.
00:14:31.868 --> 00:14:34.057
So I'm not in the best of mood to start off with.
00:14:34.388 --> 00:14:34.687
Anyway.
00:14:34.687 --> 00:14:39.998
Then, so doing this turn, I'll start to reverse back towards this taxi driver and he honks his horn.
00:14:40.793 --> 00:14:45.383
Now, all of a sudden now, yeah, the action, he honked his horn.
00:14:45.743 --> 00:14:48.023
My belief, that's aggressive.
00:14:48.023 --> 00:14:49.763
People who honk their horns are aggressive.
00:14:50.003 --> 00:14:56.003
Before I knew it, I'm out the car and I'm screaming at this clown who's in, parked across my drive and dah, dah, dah.
00:14:56.168 --> 00:14:59.482
And, and he at me and he said, I'm sorry, mate.
00:14:59.482 --> 00:15:00.293
I believe the reverse.
00:15:01.842 --> 00:15:03.758
At which point I then fell pretty bad.
00:15:04.508 --> 00:15:08.048
When did you do that for your prep and fell back down the ladder very quickly In ba head.
00:15:08.138 --> 00:15:16.087
I mean, I looked like a complete pillar, but it's just, that is the case in point isn't you see something, you take a different meaning from it and you know it triggers you and off you go.
00:15:16.148 --> 00:15:16.798
So there you go.
00:15:16.827 --> 00:15:17.548
How's that for a
00:15:18.592 --> 00:15:19.013
That's really good.
00:15:19.587 --> 00:15:20.398
example,
00:15:20.423 --> 00:15:21.442
Really good example.
00:15:21.592 --> 00:15:22.143
And so why that's.
00:15:22.227 --> 00:15:23.248
my wife didn't think it was a
00:15:23.383 --> 00:15:32.852
Well, I think in, in your, your, the other example, Amanda, that James is quoting himself was the, his response to your question about difficult conversations.
00:15:33.123 --> 00:15:40.863
So straight away he started on the, it's all, HR courses, it's a, it's conversations that HR calls that make it difficult.
00:15:40.863 --> 00:15:49.543
They don't need to be difficult, so that's taking a question and then building and building and building, and the outcome is, well, it's all nonsense, isn't it?
00:15:49.602 --> 00:15:53.023
When actually the reality is some conversations are difficult.
00:15:53.758 --> 00:15:56.863
And, and the point in difficult conversations is that we don't notice that.
00:15:57.283 --> 00:15:58.783
So we don't see that happening.
00:15:59.562 --> 00:16:02.383
don't, it occurs and we act out of the top of our ladder.
00:16:02.383 --> 00:16:03.043
Hey, guess what?
00:16:03.043 --> 00:16:10.363
When we're talking to someone else, interestingly enough, they will also have then a reaction in reaction to our behavior.
00:16:10.633 --> 00:16:17.322
And so if you're not very careful, you can see how quickly that act escalates into an argument or, or a conflict situation.
00:16:18.753 --> 00:16:31.148
It is like, it's like a game of snakes and ladders, but where ladders are all bad'cause you're just going up them and you've got to find the way of going down things and deescalating things down to focus on the the facts.
00:16:31.628 --> 00:16:32.138
Exactly.
00:16:33.482 --> 00:16:40.623
Our podcast is all about helping people, teams, and organizations perform better and enjoy work more.
00:16:41.852 --> 00:16:49.743
I get as far as to say that we believe that everyone and every team has the potential to transform their performance by optimizing what they currently do.
00:16:49.982 --> 00:16:56.732
So if you'd like to discuss how we can help you transform your performance, then get in touch or maybe check out our website.
00:16:57.452 --> 00:17:01.263
We also do speaking events, mentoring advice, work as well.
00:17:04.107 --> 00:17:08.103
So I totally get the concept very good at really that.
00:17:08.307 --> 00:17:08.577
Yep.
00:17:08.663 --> 00:17:09.982
what do I do differently then?
00:17:10.198 --> 00:17:10.377
So
00:17:10.462 --> 00:17:10.583
I.
00:17:11.218 --> 00:17:12.478
yeah, that's a really, really good question.
00:17:12.478 --> 00:17:16.798
And so that's why it's really quite interesting when we look at difficult conversations.
00:17:16.798 --> 00:17:18.748
What made this conversation difficult?
00:17:19.917 --> 00:17:20.938
of the ladder is interesting.
00:17:20.938 --> 00:17:21.837
People can kind of.
00:17:22.557 --> 00:17:24.928
to grips with that really, really quite quickly.
00:17:25.317 --> 00:17:29.998
And then the job is walking them back down the ladder, essentially.
00:17:29.998 --> 00:17:37.077
So if you can have people buy into the notion that actually I've processed that very, very quickly, I've attached a lot of assumptions and beliefs to it.
00:17:38.292 --> 00:17:46.663
Let's go right back to what, what actually happened, what was actually said, and then very more accurately process.
00:17:46.692 --> 00:17:48.942
What else could be true in this scenario.
00:17:49.032 --> 00:17:50.833
Now, that's a very rational process.
00:17:50.833 --> 00:17:58.303
I realize it's not something that's easy to do when there's a lot of emotion attached, but as a tool for helping people to deescalate.
00:17:59.262 --> 00:18:02.893
What they perceive to be difficult or even to prepare for a difficult conversation.
00:18:02.893 --> 00:18:18.083
You know, understanding what's my normal reaction or how do I normally react when I'm exposed to this personal situation Using the metaphor of the ladder, it, it's a helpful way to explore what's going on or what typically is the trigger in this conversation for me.
00:18:18.563 --> 00:18:23.813
And then how could it be interpreted differently if we walk right back to the, the data itself.
00:18:24.667 --> 00:18:36.698
And if I think back Amanda, one of the examples I would have is you know, there might be an individual that I worked with that I think was very manipulative, and therefore every interaction we had, whether it's an email.
00:18:37.117 --> 00:18:39.067
Or a face-to-face or whatever it was.
00:18:39.428 --> 00:18:41.137
I always had that in the back of my head.
00:18:41.317 --> 00:18:46.298
So I was always interpreting their behavior through, this is manipulative, isn't it?
00:18:46.748 --> 00:18:50.857
And not actually sticking to the facts of what they said and what they communicated?
00:18:51.458 --> 00:18:56.768
And I was thinking more about my interpretation of it and that blinded me.
00:18:56.857 --> 00:19:03.488
So rather than thinking they're difficult, they're manipulative, actually deal with the facts of the interaction.
00:19:04.238 --> 00:19:15.038
Yes, I once went through some training, so I was in the training myself, which I thought was really powerful by same group, by Chris Arris and, and a team of people.
00:19:15.428 --> 00:19:21.337
One of the exercises he had us do then something called a left-hand column exercise.
00:19:21.397 --> 00:19:22.807
Really useful actually when you.
00:19:23.813 --> 00:19:32.393
In a, I find myself in a difficult situation with this person quite regularly, and that's almost to write a script.
00:19:32.393 --> 00:19:38.512
So take a piece of paper, divide it in two on the left hand side, write down what was said in this conversation.
00:19:38.932 --> 00:19:43.553
Record the actual words, what they said, what you said, what they said, what you said.
00:19:43.942 --> 00:19:47.603
And in the right hand side actually, how did you feel?
00:19:49.178 --> 00:19:50.317
What did you believe?
00:19:50.317 --> 00:19:52.627
What was your reaction in response to?
00:19:52.678 --> 00:19:56.728
It's quite an analyst approach, I would guess, James, you'll have to tell me whether you agree with that or not.
00:19:56.728 --> 00:20:00.327
But actually you write down the conversations, the script in the right hand column.
00:20:00.327 --> 00:20:04.347
Then you write what your emotion was, what your reaction was, what interpretations you made.
00:20:04.768 --> 00:20:07.167
So you kind of lay out on a page almost.
00:20:08.712 --> 00:20:17.353
That pool of data that we were talking about, what was actually said, and then your interpretation of it, and you can examine then in that way, what's triggering me in this?
00:20:17.353 --> 00:20:24.792
What fear, what belief is this creating in me that I'm acting out of as I say whatever I say next.
00:20:24.792 --> 00:20:26.262
And sometimes that can be, I come back.
00:20:26.682 --> 00:20:27.823
In full on fight mode.
00:20:27.823 --> 00:20:35.173
So I'm in a conflict or an argument situation, it could be actually at that point I felt fearful, so I withdrew.
00:20:35.353 --> 00:20:37.153
I don't say anything at that point.
00:20:38.083 --> 00:20:41.893
Going through that analytical process, I'm sorry, helps you to understand.
00:20:42.718 --> 00:20:47.458
Where might I make different choices where I'm, where might I alter my behavior?
00:20:47.488 --> 00:20:51.718
'cause to your point in the last podcast, we can't change the other person, just ourselves.
00:20:52.077 --> 00:21:00.147
Where am I doing or taking a a, making a reaction that is helpful to me and influencing the, this conversation in the way that I'd like it to go.
00:21:00.147 --> 00:21:02.097
Where might I make different choices?
00:21:02.548 --> 00:21:08.248
So again, it, it takes time, it takes a little bit of thinking about, but actually it's really useful for examining.
00:21:09.028 --> 00:21:09.387
happen?
00:21:09.387 --> 00:21:10.978
What's really happening here?
00:21:11.758 --> 00:21:12.478
that make sense?
00:21:12.853 --> 00:21:17.262
Yeah, and a lots of it is just about being able to understand yourself.
00:21:18.732 --> 00:21:19.153
Yeah.
00:21:19.153 --> 00:21:20.833
And what, well, and what triggers you
00:21:20.948 --> 00:21:21.188
Yeah.
00:21:21.393 --> 00:21:21.613
Yes.
00:21:21.702 --> 00:21:25.633
then so, and then they're interesting coming back to my, in contra to with a taxi driver.
00:21:25.813 --> 00:21:26.383
I dunno why.
00:21:26.383 --> 00:21:28.873
It is probably something deep and meaningful in my history.
00:21:29.113 --> 00:21:32.173
People honking their horns and just think it's rude and it just sets me off.
00:21:32.413 --> 00:21:32.563
But
00:21:32.577 --> 00:21:32.637
Yeah.
00:21:32.893 --> 00:21:37.032
being aware of that fact not responding to it is a really.
00:21:38.617 --> 00:21:39.583
A powerful thing,
00:21:40.633 --> 00:21:42.498
Gets you to Try something different.
00:21:42.887 --> 00:21:43.337
Yeah,
00:21:43.518 --> 00:21:56.407
So we talked about two types of, of difficult conversations that's the relationship and, we've got the ladder inference and the analyzing, the conversation pattern and your triggers.
00:21:56.857 --> 00:21:59.917
But the second part was difficult messages.
00:22:00.298 --> 00:22:03.657
So what's your, take on difficult messages than Amanda?
00:22:04.288 --> 00:22:04.768
Yes.
00:22:04.768 --> 00:22:06.657
So yeah, thank you for that.
00:22:06.657 --> 00:22:20.458
So for me, again, linked to everything that you were saying in the last podcast about deep caring, about what's my intention as I go into this conversation, the tips, I think fall into.
00:22:21.643 --> 00:22:25.002
Four buckets one before the conversation.
00:22:25.002 --> 00:22:29.742
So how, how do I get clear about what the purpose of this conversation is?
00:22:29.813 --> 00:22:34.343
Can I be clean and precise about what it is I'm trying to get across?
00:22:35.252 --> 00:22:40.103
Then knowing your own likely triggers in that conversation.
00:22:40.103 --> 00:22:45.383
What might show up for me and how do I want to be, if that shows up in this conversation?
00:22:45.682 --> 00:22:48.772
And then arguably, what's the structure going to look like?
00:22:48.772 --> 00:22:51.563
So gonna be private conversation?
00:22:51.563 --> 00:22:57.988
Do I need to make sure that it's scheduled to happen, know, in, outta sight and out of earshot of other people.
00:22:58.377 --> 00:23:00.028
Where are we gonna place ourselves?
00:23:00.028 --> 00:23:01.917
How's the, how's the person going to react?
00:23:01.917 --> 00:23:05.278
When I say I want to talk to them about this, what's their emotional state?
00:23:05.577 --> 00:23:08.698
Are they ready right now to hear what I want to talk to them about?
00:23:09.178 --> 00:23:13.798
And then what's the style I'm gonna adopt as I get into that conversation?
00:23:13.798 --> 00:23:15.387
Am I going to be very matter of fact?
00:23:16.532 --> 00:23:20.163
clinical about it is, am I going to show up with the caring or support?
00:23:20.343 --> 00:23:24.998
How am I gonna be So preparation, first of all, does that resonate with you?
00:23:26.167 --> 00:23:26.557
Yeah.
00:23:26.607 --> 00:23:32.788
We touched on it in the past, you know, just thinking about the conversation or the questions you're gonna ask.
00:23:33.758 --> 00:23:43.657
We just go into these things and if you spend less time worrying about or dreading it and more time planning what you're actually gonna do in it.
00:23:43.837 --> 00:23:52.387
So it's just shifting that energy from worry and anxiety to actually a positive action I can take is to prepare that conversation.
00:23:52.942 --> 00:23:53.843
Exactly that.
00:23:54.548 --> 00:23:57.772
And about risk of banging on about our old favorite, but purpose.
00:23:57.772 --> 00:23:59.722
Whatcha are you having the conversation for?
00:23:59.752 --> 00:23:59.972
Yeah.
00:24:00.202 --> 00:24:01.042
exactly that.
00:24:01.042 --> 00:24:04.432
what, am I actually trying to achieve through this?
00:24:05.182 --> 00:24:11.573
moving into the actual conversation itself, so starting with what's the environment we're going to create here?
00:24:12.442 --> 00:24:17.873
How can you create safety, psychological safety in that conversation?
00:24:18.982 --> 00:24:21.202
Using I statements owning your message.
00:24:21.202 --> 00:24:29.992
So particularly the feedback scenario I thought was really interesting that you were describing earlier, Jimmy, if it's other people's observation, is a lot harder.
00:24:29.992 --> 00:24:30.563
Of course it
00:24:30.577 --> 00:24:30.867
Yeah.
00:24:30.893 --> 00:24:32.722
what's the I, what's your ownership?
00:24:32.722 --> 00:24:35.512
What's that going to look like in this particular conversation?
00:24:35.573 --> 00:24:45.472
Not that whole, everyone says this about you, scenario that you are bringing, but actually how I, I want to achieve, what I want to discuss.
00:24:46.113 --> 00:24:55.143
In my example when I could say I, it was incredibly easier than when I was saying I, I didn't have the firsthand.
00:24:55.442 --> 00:24:58.173
Almost rever the reverse supports what you're saying.
00:24:58.502 --> 00:25:02.462
If I had seen the behavior and I could say I've seen when that happens.
00:25:02.827 --> 00:25:03.167
Yeah.
00:25:03.393 --> 00:25:08.702
That didn't feel like a difficult conversation to me where I hadn't seen it and I couldn't use the eye.
00:25:09.928 --> 00:25:11.008
That felt difficult for me.
00:25:11.653 --> 00:25:13.153
Yeah, that.
00:25:14.053 --> 00:25:17.502
The other tip, plain and clear language.
00:25:17.992 --> 00:25:26.313
To your point about sort of what, what James would call an HR driven scenario, but, let, let's not bring language that people don't understand.
00:25:26.583 --> 00:25:28.262
Like what is this conversation all about?
00:25:28.262 --> 00:25:30.962
Can we use complain, straightforward language?
00:25:31.173 --> 00:25:43.083
Let's not fluff it up with lots of, oh, you know, how are you, what we are doing here, and all that kind of stuff, which is meant to soften, but actually be really direct, plain, straightforward language.
00:25:43.323 --> 00:25:43.593
Yeah.
00:25:44.343 --> 00:25:45.333
that making sense?
00:25:45.597 --> 00:25:45.887
Yeah.
00:25:46.053 --> 00:25:47.762
Then listening deeply.
00:25:49.097 --> 00:25:50.567
At that point, stop talking.
00:25:50.748 --> 00:25:51.708
What's going on?
00:25:51.708 --> 00:25:52.817
What's the reaction?
00:25:53.087 --> 00:26:01.788
Pauses when needed to let the person then react, say, ask questions, have let them be present in this conversation.
00:26:01.788 --> 00:26:02.958
Let them be contributing.
00:26:03.288 --> 00:26:05.597
Let they be silent for a while as well, not rushing.
00:26:05.597 --> 00:26:06.887
What's on your mind, what are you thinking?
00:26:07.157 --> 00:26:09.948
But having, giving them space, letting them process.
00:26:10.968 --> 00:26:14.748
and then something really important about not trying to fix emotion.
00:26:14.807 --> 00:26:19.097
So if you've been in a situation which difficult, you're gonna land a difficult message.
00:26:19.097 --> 00:26:24.768
IE one that has the potential to hurt someone or create fear, knows?
00:26:24.917 --> 00:26:27.288
Allow that reaction.
00:26:27.347 --> 00:26:28.938
You don't have to soften that.
00:26:28.988 --> 00:26:31.117
Acknowledging and empathizing that that's occurring.
00:26:31.117 --> 00:26:32.107
You don't have to fix it.
00:26:32.107 --> 00:26:35.678
You can't make it better because actually it's been created by the scenario.
00:26:35.678 --> 00:26:38.438
But you, you can be present to that emotion,
00:26:39.262 --> 00:26:39.532
Yeah.
00:26:39.896 --> 00:26:41.096
which is not always easy.
00:26:41.517 --> 00:26:41.787
No.
00:26:41.906 --> 00:26:44.126
to find in difficult conversations is people.
00:26:45.761 --> 00:26:46.001
Wanna
00:26:46.017 --> 00:26:47.336
The message, difficult message.
00:26:47.396 --> 00:26:47.727
Yeah.
00:26:47.846 --> 00:26:50.727
And then either wanna run, extract themselves or make it all right.
00:26:51.086 --> 00:26:53.967
And actually that's conflicting and confusing and, and not helpful.
00:26:55.596 --> 00:27:09.896
Something then about next steps, if that's appropriate, even if that's, let's follow up on this conversation tomorrow when you've had time to think about it or next week an invitation to, would you like to talk about some options right now?
00:27:10.616 --> 00:27:13.467
Really, really helpful, particularly in those difficult, some conversations.
00:27:13.467 --> 00:27:16.886
Say you were having to do something as extreme as fire someone, let them go.
00:27:17.906 --> 00:27:27.267
just creating space for them to come back to the conversation when they've had time to process it that conversation makes the, the initial one that little bit easier.
00:27:27.642 --> 00:27:31.392
And just on the next steps, it's just being clear about what's been agreed as well.
00:27:31.392 --> 00:27:43.031
So when you've had a difficult conversation, so for example, talking out to somebody about their behavior, have they actually really understood it and is there a commitment to doing something different in the future?
00:27:43.332 --> 00:27:43.842
Good point.
00:27:43.842 --> 00:27:44.737
Good Absolutely.
00:27:44.737 --> 00:27:53.257
So in that kind of in those process steps, yes, the bit before, the bit during the conversation, then what the next steps will be, and absolutely take your point there.
00:27:53.287 --> 00:27:58.146
What's gonna happen behaviorally, what are you gonna commit to, or what's gonna happen next in the process?
00:27:58.146 --> 00:27:58.836
Both of those things.
00:27:58.842 --> 00:27:59.737
Really, really important.
00:28:00.896 --> 00:28:09.656
And then afterwards, for yourself, as much as anything, is reflection time, pausing to say, how did that conversation go?
00:28:09.997 --> 00:28:10.491
What went well?
00:28:11.467 --> 00:28:14.636
might I learn from how that conversation went?
00:28:15.446 --> 00:28:31.666
All goes for helping, doesn't necessarily remove that kind of, the perception of difficulty, but actually it helps you to manage that difficult conversation more effectively, I would say, and as a, as a process for preparing yourself and then learning from afterwards.
00:28:32.344 --> 00:28:37.983
So very, very comprehensive steps on how to actually deliver the message.
00:28:38.241 --> 00:28:40.696
So that's very helpful, Amanda.
00:28:40.696 --> 00:28:45.166
Presumably there's something we could put in the show notes and if I add those, people can have a look at it if they want
00:28:45.241 --> 00:28:47.942
Yeah, just some, a little flow for that.
00:28:48.092 --> 00:28:48.301
Yeah.
00:28:48.751 --> 00:28:48.961
Yeah.
00:28:49.021 --> 00:28:49.251
Let's do that.
00:28:51.116 --> 00:28:52.106
We hope you're enjoying
00:28:52.106 --> 00:28:54.237
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00:29:09.626 --> 00:29:16.196
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00:29:18.464 --> 00:29:19.005
Excellent.
00:29:19.244 --> 00:29:23.984
So that's the messages, that's the relationship stuff.
00:29:24.045 --> 00:29:29.454
One of the things that strikes me, Amanda, I've been going through this with you, that.
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:45.450
A lot of what you think about when it comes to either difficult people or difficult conversations, a lot of it is what's in your control and what's in your head, and what's in your head influences whether a conversation or a person is perceived to be difficult.
00:29:45.825 --> 00:29:46.214
Yeah.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:47.430
that fair comment?
00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:52.259
Yeah, I think it is, and again, back to the training from the fabulous Mr.
00:29:52.259 --> 00:30:00.944
Arduous that I was lucky enough to go through, is a model that I've I've heard referenced many, many times is kind of two mindsets.
00:30:01.755 --> 00:30:05.565
you think of the first one, very often when we are in conversation with people.
00:30:06.869 --> 00:30:09.690
We start or we bring to the conversation.
00:30:10.019 --> 00:30:15.539
Let's imagine a work scenario where I've gotta come and present to you two guys and you are difficult.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:16.559
I'm on your team.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:17.549
I want us to do something..
00:30:17.549 --> 00:30:22.950
So I've already got this whole story in my head that this is going to be a difficult show.
00:30:23.009 --> 00:30:24.240
It's a difficult conversation.
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.630
So I come in from the mindset of I've done some work.
00:30:27.944 --> 00:30:29.444
I think this is what we need to do.
00:30:29.625 --> 00:30:32.355
It's my job now to come and convince you.
00:30:33.015 --> 00:30:41.115
So I'm ready and armed with whatever you throw at me, I'm gonna bring my defensive re reasoning.
00:30:41.414 --> 00:30:45.585
I just justify why I think it needs to be the way it needs to think.
00:30:45.585 --> 00:30:50.984
My job is about persuading you and convincing you, and.
00:30:51.990 --> 00:30:58.299
Pretty much, unless I get all, get through all of that and survive all of that, then I've not been successful model one
00:30:58.434 --> 00:31:01.555
what you really saying is you're coming into it with a very combative
00:31:01.619 --> 00:31:01.910
Yeah.
00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:12.190
coming in with a position which I am holding onto and going to defend and you two I know are just gonna try and shoot me now and all the ways you can.
00:31:12.190 --> 00:31:13.269
So I'm ready for that.
00:31:13.394 --> 00:31:13.615
Yes.
00:31:14.259 --> 00:31:23.980
Essentially that, and I'm overstating it, but it's really interesting if you think about what is the mindset I'm taking into this conversation very often, that's what it looks like.
00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:24.250
I'm
00:31:24.430 --> 00:31:24.589
Yeah.
00:31:24.670 --> 00:31:33.190
my job to persuade you is an alternative, which is a much more conducive to productive conversations, which is that.
00:31:33.910 --> 00:31:39.099
Partly I have, I have a great idea here, but I don't know the whole story.
00:31:39.099 --> 00:32:00.039
So I'm gonna come to this conversation with what I believe we should do based on the information that I have, but it's not the whole story being in dialogue with you, by being in an open, sharing reasoning, of inquiry where I test my thinking with you.
00:32:00.789 --> 00:32:02.650
add and build my thinking.
00:32:02.650 --> 00:32:08.529
So instead now of you bringing your criticism, what happens is the experience I create is Jimmy James.
00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:11.650
What do you think about this notion that I'm bringing?
00:32:11.980 --> 00:32:14.494
What would have to be true for this to be.
00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:16.869
What am I not seeing?
00:32:17.140 --> 00:32:21.730
So the mindset now I'm bringing not so much as convincing, but it's about collaborating.
00:32:22.029 --> 00:32:28.869
It's about inviting you to join with me in actually exploring the premise I'm holding.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.795
You may bring extra information that when I know it might.
00:32:32.190 --> 00:32:39.630
In fact, change my idea, or actually you build my idea and we'll cover any gaps that I've got.
00:32:39.630 --> 00:32:41.670
So we end up with an even better product.
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:48.119
So what you've moved into is more of a learning conversation, a stance of.
00:32:48.299 --> 00:33:01.980
Inquiry and invitation to input and collaborate and results often is much stronger relationships, a high trust, psychologically safe environment because now I'm not convincing you, it's an invitation to join with me.
00:33:02.069 --> 00:33:04.500
When we join, I learn something.
00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:11.230
You learn something in a relationship, feels anything but difficult, feels much more generative and enjoyable, arguably.
00:33:11.815 --> 00:33:13.140
And I, and I re it.
00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:25.799
It does, and I reckon if you could think back to the conversations, the people that you feel difficult, I, I think you, to your point, you would have more of the model one combative.
00:33:26.765 --> 00:33:38.335
Mindset and you'd have approached it with that,, but if you approached it with a collaborative mindset, would then the difficult person, difficult relationship, difficult messages, difficult conversation.
00:33:39.265 --> 00:33:40.914
Would it, it would be fundamentally different.
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:46.640
Yeah, the other person feels heard, invited to contribute.
00:33:46.910 --> 00:33:48.470
You can relax a little bit.
00:33:48.470 --> 00:33:53.569
'cause now their observational input doesn't feel like a criticism, a critique of you.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.400
It feels like a contribution to the work that joint problem solving.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.579
And that's something you can influence by your approach.
00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:05.240
So, so in summary, if you.
00:34:06.575 --> 00:34:13.824
Think about the ladder of inference and how you're going up and down your ladder and what's the facts that sit at the bottom of your ladder.
00:34:14.155 --> 00:34:32.195
If you then do the steps that you talked about in terms of preparing for the conversation, doing the conversation, and reflecting the, on the conversation and think about how do you approach things with a collaborative mindset rather than a combative to our point at the start.
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.710
Difficult conversations would now not be difficult.
00:34:38.030 --> 00:34:39.380
So that's what we promised.
00:34:39.619 --> 00:34:44.659
We said Amanda would come along and share some insights that would make difficult conversations easy.
00:34:44.929 --> 00:34:47.139
So I think she's done a, a cracking job on, on that.
00:34:48.295 --> 00:34:48.744
Great.
00:34:48.744 --> 00:34:50.844
It's been a pleasure joining with you on that.
00:34:50.844 --> 00:34:52.045
Not scary at all.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:54.130
Say it like immediate Amanda.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:57.940
She's approaching it with a collaborative mindset though, isn't she?
00:34:58.159 --> 00:34:58.929
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:00.309
Excellent.
00:35:00.309 --> 00:35:00.460
Alright.
00:35:00.550 --> 00:35:01.150
Lovely.
00:35:01.300 --> 00:35:02.409
Thanks very much, Amanda.
00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:03.940
Thanks everyone.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:04.570
to you later.
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:05.590
Cheers.
00:35:05.590 --> 00:35:06.340
Now, rah.
00:35:06.782 --> 00:35:13.922
Our podcast is all about helping people, teams, and organizations perform better and enjoy work more.
00:35:15.152 --> 00:35:23.041
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00:35:23.282 --> 00:35:30.032
So if you'd like to discuss how we can help you transform your performance, then get in touch or maybe check out our website.
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