WEBVTT
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Hello, I'm James.
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Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, a podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.
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Good afternoon, how are you doing?
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Alright, I'm doing well.
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How are you doing
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I'm doing fabulously, thank you.
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I have got the delightful Amanda sitting next to me.
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So my day is going very well.
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Welcome Amanda.
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Thank you, nice to be back.
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Today we are following up last week's episode where we talked about James's magic bullet of building capability and how that can yield benefits in any and every situation virtually.
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And Today we thought we would explore building people's capability we have our resident learning and development guru to help us with that.
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So Amanda's going to talk us through how we should think about building people's capability, something that I know touches many of our lives as we try and improve our performance at work.
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So James, what have you been up to recently?
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Well, the most interesting thing I've done recently is to get ahead of the game on this particular episode.
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I listened to the last episode, on double speed, and it's amazing.
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Are we twice as effective?
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We're
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twice as effective, and we sound like Smurfs.
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We are the management Smurfs.
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So if anybody's listening to this, you skip forward double speed, it's all going.
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Thanks for
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Well, save Smurf experience for free.
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Well, since the last episode, I have been focused on trying to fix the wheels of my car.
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It's a leased car and it's going back soon.
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And due to my high skilled driving, I have managed to scuff the alloys on all four sides.
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So before I take it back, I need
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Yeah, you'd think all alloys get scuffed on cars, don't they?
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Because mine, they're dreadful.
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Well, funny enough, I looked up on their wear and tear guidelines.
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I'm allowed five centimeters of scuffs in total on any wheel.
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So I went and looked at my wheels to see, could I get away with it?
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And the first wheel had a scuff.
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Five centimeters that were clearer scuffs.
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So I feel I have to get something done about
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What's the consequence when you're,
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did you say?
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Well, what happens is they'll take the car back and they'll send you a bill.
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Okay.
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For a fortune
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Is this why, where I live, every clown parks on the flipping pavement?
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Because they're all leased cars and they don't want to scuff the wheels.
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quite probably
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Oh.
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Yeah, what falls its place.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Anyway,
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Amanda, welcome.
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What have you been up to since you were last with us?
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Well, interestingly, actually trying to sell a car at
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one point.
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And using one of those, well, actually getting quotes from several of those websites where they promise to buy that Your car from you.
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Yeah.
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Any car apparently.
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And they quote you a
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We rip you off from any car.
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I think they're
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to price.
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And you go in thinking, oh, that's not too bad.
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Yes, I'll take that deal.
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And then you get there and then.
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Someone inspects your car and
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knocks you down
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like drastically so that was just a whole joy in a new world that I've not been involved in before.
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In the past, we've sort of traded our car in against another, but this whole experience was
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experience was disappointing.
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But that is their business model.
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That is how they do it.
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Sure do.
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Right, so, let's move on.
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We are going to talk about people capability
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Just to recap, last week we shared the details of a magic bullet, if you like, to solving many organizations problems.
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And that's building capability.
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And true to form, when we talked about building capability James talked about building the system's capability.
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So looking at everything from the technology to the processes to the environment, you name it, it's included.
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And I talked about building people's capability.
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But then we decided you didn't know what we were talking about, so we've invited Amanda.
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Exactly.
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We, we realized that building people's capabilities is easier said than done, and Amanda has Many years, of experience of doing this.
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So we thought we'd get along to share some of the ways of thinking about this that will help you build the capability that you need in your, well, either yourself or in your team or in your unit or organization.
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Hang on.
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Isn't this really simple?
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Go on then.
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Tell us more.
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Well,
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it.
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if you want some capability in your people, you send them on a training course, don't you?
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I mean, how difficult can it be?
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Yeah.
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Do you know what?
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That's not an unusual start position.
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I'm going to tell you, many people start there.
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And All of my years, being a learning and development consultant very often, the starting point for the conversation is, I need this particular training course, or I need a two hour session with, or I need a computer based training.
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So the start point for the conversation
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for
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is almost inevitably the solution or pointing towards a solution.
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But the customers are always right, you know.
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Yeah.
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Oh yeah.
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know.
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And there is the curse of senior leaders throughout the world, they start with a solution in mind.
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So whether it is building capability or building the systems capability they always come and I know because I've been guilty of doing it myself, is can I have a training course?
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Can I have a new system?
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Whatever it is, start with a solution in mind.
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And that almost always hamstrings your ability to get the best solution and therefore the best outcome.
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So how would you suggest we start?
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So for
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me the conversation, and you know, let's be forgiving of this, why not?
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You might well start.
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If you're thinking about people capability you might start with, I need some training.
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Really the start point for the conversation for me is, what's the problem you're trying to solve?
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What is it you're actually trying to do?
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I
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the business problem.
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So my business problem might be, for example, I don't know, my customer service has gone to hell in a handcart.
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hell in a
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, there might well be that.
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Right, but then
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So that's a better starting point than I want a training course, yeah?
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the outcome that you're actually trying to drive in your organisation.
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Because that leads you then to a number of options, as we know.
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But if we focus on the people options here Well, no, hang on, so But those options could be, yeah, technology solution, it could be a process solution, could be a change in policy, yeah, and it might be both as well.
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Yeah, and or, yeah, yeah, and, and.
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It would be
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Invariably, on something as broad as that, it There is never one solution.
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So let's just for the sake of this discussion, let's assume we have done or are doing those other things for those other system capabilities.
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And therefore we do know that we need to build greater capability in our people to help with the outcome of improving customer service.
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There's a
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there's a new skill, capability, knowledge that you need within your organisation that marries with anything else that you're going to change and driving towards a particular outcome.
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Yeah.
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Then you've got some options, quite frankly.
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So, people often say, Again, often start with training, but actually when you think about your people capabilities there are a number of routes that you could go down.
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For example, you could outsource for that capability.
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If you're talking organizational level, you might find that capability outside of your own organization.
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Buy it in.
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And when would you want to do that?
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What would be a good example of doing that?
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Well, I think when you've got the situation that you've either got to grow very quickly or you know, there's organizations that can provide that at a, cheaper price.
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They're often some of the things that people think about outsourcing being a good option.
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Yeah, so I suppose a good example, a niche example, would be payroll.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, you probably wouldn't want to train people in payroll skills, you'd just outsource it in Hampton.
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Yeah,
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you can outsource on volume or outsource on skills.
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So I don't think I can build, teams of web developers.
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So rather than try and build lots of capabilities around that, I outsource that capability.
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What else?
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Another option might be that you need to hire in this skill.
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So rather than teach it within your organisation, actually, you need to hire someone for this skillset.
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Yeah, okay, same question.
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When would I want to do that rather than training?
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Well, I
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Well, I think you've, you've probably, well, both of us have been hired at times for the skill and knowledge, believe it or not.
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the structure and whatnot.
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Yeah, you can always fool some people.
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Yeah, but I think that's the point, isn't it?
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So if it is a, what, a fairly niche skill, not something that you want in depth across your organisation, a specific points problem, then hiring might be a better
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And it can be individuals or it can be temporary.
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So do you need extra resource temporarily or do you need, you've got a project that you only have to have for some of the time so you don't actually want to skill a load of people up to manage a project that's a one off project, do you?
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Yeah.
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And I think temps is a very good point actually.
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if you have got a time bound problem you need to fix.
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Employing temps or contractors may well be the best way to do that.
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Yeah.
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And some of those things, actually, as we're thinking about it, can be a bridge to.
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your
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state.
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So you might have temps to fill a gap now whilst you think about doing some upskilling.
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modelling.
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Or you might recruit someone in or contract someone in to do a project for you.
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So let's say you were doing something like agile transformation in your organization.
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You might want to bring in some coaches as people within your organization are developing the skill.
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You actually have that kind of higher level mastery almost running alongside.
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Whilst you make that transition.
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Does that make sense?
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The show you're listening to right now.
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Brings you insights to help you improve performance and enjoyment of work.
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It takes a long time to produce, but we think it's well worth it.
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And if you haven't already click on follow the show, wherever you're listening to this podcast right now.
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Anyway, let's get back to the show.
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So you've got.
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Recruitment.
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You've got outsourcing.
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Yeah.
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But when is it most appropriate to build the skill, the capability internally in your organization?
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a decision you're going to make for the organisation but you might say this is a skill set that we need more broadly in the organisation for a sustainable period of time or maybe into the future.
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So actually it's worth us investing now in retaining the talent that we have and adding more skills.
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I suppose also because
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remember there's a lot of investment you've made already in your current employee base.
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So
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if you've got a large organization you've got some skill at scale you wouldn't want to necessarily build from the ground up you might be upskilling your current workforce.
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Similarly If something is core to you, like, for example, in insurance companies, you know, underwriting.
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So they would believe underwriting was core for them, yeah, you might hire in underwriters, but often you'll also want to invest quite heavily in that core skill and building that core skill internally.
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Well, and you're investing, aren't you?
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So you're investing in what is critical to your business.
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Yeah.
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And you think of it, and interestingly enough, you think of building capability as an investment as opposed to, yeah, I'm buying something which is more of a, a commodity that you're buying.
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Yeah.
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And I
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And I think there's the, there's this, the associated, and we can talk about benefits in a bit more detail in a while, but of upskilling your people because you maybe want to do it a particular way.
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so on when I got for uni my first graduate job, they were very clear about they wanted things doing a certain way.
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It was part of their organization.
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It was inherent within their culture and within their processes.
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And so they brought a huge number of people through and trained them.
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I was given a huge amount of training, but it was important to them that they That you did it the Unilever way.
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And that's what I mean.
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If you've got, you feel like you've got a particular way so we're clear then that our need is to train.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, but where do I go with that next then?
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Okay, and so that's interesting.
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You know what, the steps to this are quite logical, I think.
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But really what you're going to start with is where am I going to get to?
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So a little bit of analysis around what, what is the skill?
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What does it actually look like when it's happening?
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In the way that I want it to be happening.
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Around the task or the competence.
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What's the skill?
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Where do I want to get to?
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And then let's take a look at what have I got already?
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What is this person capable of doing right now?
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And what you're driving for is what's the gap?
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What's the bit that's missing in between?
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When you understand the difference, what you're designing for then is the intervention that closes that gap.
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That helps them to move from the current state, where I am right now, to the set of skills that I will need into the future.
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Okay,
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got that.
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So, and that makes a lot of sense because if you're not clear about what you're trying to achieve, you won't do it.
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It's kind of like linked to the purpose stuff that you
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to the purpose.
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And The way you've described it, that must apply if I am, James's example of, we need to improve customer service in this organization.
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But equally, it would apply if I'm a frontline manager, and I want to improve the performance of my team, or if I'm an individual.
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that just
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needs to improve their performance, that same process of where do I want to get to?
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Where am I now?
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What's the gap?
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What's the solution?
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You can follow that process, can't you?
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In a whole range of
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Yeah, absolutely you can.
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I mean, when we're talking about FLM and our manager population, really what we're Asking them to do is help their team to build development action as well.
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Sorry I fell in.
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Frontline management.
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I'm so sorry.
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Yeah.
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So it's, it's about your development action plan.
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I would imagine it can be top performers that want to get even better.
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Yes, please.
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Let's not make this remedial.
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Or it could be an underperformer on a performance plan.
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But following the same process will get you the best interventions that you can possibly get.
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Yeah.
00:15:01.577 --> 00:15:07.687
right thing I would urge is investing the time in thinking about what that needs to look
00:15:07.809 --> 00:15:08.600
look like.
00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:14.288
But again, without doing, the solution is, I need training on X.
00:15:14.418 --> 00:15:23.307
It's actually, what's the gap, what's the, really understanding it well enough that you can get the intervention that really helps this person.
00:15:23.307 --> 00:15:28.177
And from the conversations we've had, the interventions are not just training courses.
00:15:28.217 --> 00:15:29.528
Not just training courses.
00:15:29.567 --> 00:15:30.937
There are a range of things we could do.
00:15:30.947 --> 00:15:32.827
So other than just training, what else could I do?
00:15:32.908 --> 00:16:02.023
Yeah, well so this requires maybe a little bit of creative thinking, but actually sometimes these opportunities are available within your organization and readily available within your team so some work shadowing for example maybe you have an employee that's doing this job already and someone that wants to you want to teach that skill you want to reskill to be able to actually perform that job now or in the future actually spend some time just watching and observing how someone else is doing it.
00:16:02.072 --> 00:16:13.442
if you're doing some job shadowing, you've actually gone through that activity as the person being developed, what's the conversation that you then have with your manager about, okay, what did you learn?
00:16:13.462 --> 00:16:14.043
What else?
00:16:14.192 --> 00:16:15.363
What do we need to add to that?
00:16:15.673 --> 00:16:17.832
So rather than it being one solution, that's it,
00:16:17.918 --> 00:16:18.207
it.
00:16:19.217 --> 00:16:26.148
Actually, maybe you would couple your work shadowing now with some coaching or a teach to learn exercise.
00:16:26.368 --> 00:16:28.238
So I've now learned to do this task.
00:16:28.238 --> 00:16:29.658
I'm going to teach someone else.
00:16:29.988 --> 00:16:36.057
And by that, what I'm trying to describe there is you're continuing to layer the capability.
00:16:36.347 --> 00:16:40.567
actually you're making an intervention that adds richness, breadth and depth.
00:16:40.993 --> 00:16:41.842
Do you see what I mean?
00:16:42.592 --> 00:16:47.873
It's lazy management and lazy development to just do one thing, tick in the box.
00:16:47.873 --> 00:16:48.212
That's it.
00:16:48.253 --> 00:16:49.692
Our people are now capable.
00:16:49.880 --> 00:16:56.163
But I think that's why often people are, are attracted towards training courses because it's almost
00:16:56.441 --> 00:16:57.154
like Once
00:16:57.192 --> 00:17:00.442
yeah, just go and send them on a training course, sorts, sorts these things out.
00:17:00.753 --> 00:17:08.712
And actually, some of these things you're now starting to talk about are, they're, they're cheaper, they're much more accessible and often they're more effective.
00:17:08.752 --> 00:17:11.113
I mean, that, that last one you mentioned, going.
00:17:11.488 --> 00:17:12.728
getting somebody to teach the
00:17:12.742 --> 00:17:13.252
skill up.
00:17:13.432 --> 00:17:13.692
Yeah.
00:17:13.778 --> 00:17:16.627
That's, wasn't it that's one of Covey's isn't it?
00:17:16.637 --> 00:17:16.657
Yeah.
00:17:17.038 --> 00:17:20.377
And it's hugely effective when you actually practice that.
00:17:20.647 --> 00:17:23.548
Because it really does test out, have you really learned this?
00:17:23.567 --> 00:17:23.887
Well.
00:17:23.897 --> 00:17:25.518
That's a top tip for anyone listening.
00:17:25.518 --> 00:17:30.968
In all seriousness now, that's, I, I think, I don't know, Watch something on the television tonight.
00:17:30.998 --> 00:17:52.157
Have a conversation with someone and then do the exercise for yourself of going away and Explaining to someone else what you learned takes it from that that exercise Because it will take it uses a different part of your brain to be able to kind of explain it and teach it to someone else So we've talked about work shadowing.
00:17:52.238 --> 00:17:52.617
Yep.
00:17:53.025 --> 00:17:53.422
Yep.
00:17:53.548 --> 00:17:55.278
We've talked about training other people.
00:17:55.458 --> 00:17:55.667
Yes.
00:17:56.178 --> 00:17:56.988
What else is there?
00:17:56.998 --> 00:17:58.688
Maybe you could work with a coach.
00:17:58.778 --> 00:17:59.028
Yeah.
00:17:59.048 --> 00:18:00.107
Or a mentor.
00:18:00.317 --> 00:18:20.667
So in that case, actually, someone's assigned alongside you to be able to explore what your current performance is and to help you create some plans and some strategies and some exercises Something I don't usually do, but actually I'm going to give you that task in order that you can learn this new skill set.
00:18:21.067 --> 00:18:27.897
So I'm urging managers and teams and organizations is to be intentional about this.
00:18:28.097 --> 00:18:33.688
Not just a project for the sake of project, but if it's a developmental project, what are you expecting me to get out of it?
00:18:34.317 --> 00:18:44.567
What skill am I expected to learn or do I want to learn and what project are you going to select in order that we can make sure that I do actually get exposure and an opportunity to grow that skill?
00:18:45.468 --> 00:18:54.087
And the other thing actually that we very often forget about is what skills and opportunities do people have outside of their working environment?
00:18:55.008 --> 00:19:01.678
So I might work in, I don't know, let's say I work in your call center for, you know, I'm doing a job.
00:19:01.718 --> 00:19:06.567
I'm handling customer calls, but I've always wanted to be a team leader.
00:19:07.018 --> 00:19:12.147
And one of the skills that you need from me is to be able to coach and support others.
00:19:12.728 --> 00:19:33.117
Well, what if outside of work, I'm actually coaching local football team how do you get to know your people well enough, if you're really thinking about their capability, to say, are there activities that they're doing outside of work, where actually they have skills that aren't exposed inside the work environment, but if we think about that creatively, we can apply
00:19:33.758 --> 00:19:33.867
in work?
00:19:34.538 --> 00:19:42.887
I'd imagine that's, that's a pretty powerful and, and unused opportunity because I don't think that individuals necessarily always think.
00:19:43.252 --> 00:19:48.522
The things I do outside of work, the skills I build outside work, using them in work.
00:19:49.173 --> 00:19:55.143
And often, managers don't know that much about their team members to help them identify.
00:19:55.173 --> 00:20:02.303
So having some of those open conversations and then working what's transferable, is a really great opportunity.
00:20:02.752 --> 00:20:03.002
Absolutely.
00:20:03.583 --> 00:20:06.813
And what do you think about certification?
00:20:06.813 --> 00:20:11.093
By which I mean, how do you make sure that people did get the skills that you were hoping to get?
00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:12.032
to get?
00:20:12.032 --> 00:20:12.732
So,
00:20:13.712 --> 00:20:24.452
There are a number of ways you can do that So if let's now let's go back to training courses very often at the end of a training course You will have a quiz or an assessment.
00:20:24.452 --> 00:20:29.148
Yes that actually tests that you've taken on board a particular subject knowledge piece.
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:31.308
There'll be a quiz at the end, a knowledge quiz.
00:20:31.858 --> 00:20:32.919
Or observation.
00:20:33.148 --> 00:20:41.852
So I remember when I was being taught to deliver behavioral interview skills training, you've probably been through that training yourself.
00:20:41.852 --> 00:20:49.963
Actually, there was an assessor, at the end, who observed me run an interview, a bit like when you take your driving test actually.
00:20:50.334 --> 00:20:56.634
You've got someone alongside saying, here's the standard that we want this person to meet.
00:20:57.344 --> 00:21:00.673
How, are they, are they actually meeting that, that standard?
00:21:00.763 --> 00:21:01.203
Another,
00:21:01.278 --> 00:21:01.309
a another?
00:21:01.315 --> 00:21:11.398
Another good example back to the training course piece, but when you go back to the workplace, Does your manager ever talk to you about what have you learned, how are you going to put it into place?
00:21:11.628 --> 00:21:19.719
Because that was always another good way of ensuring that the learnings from whatever the intervention was, were put into place in the workplace.
00:21:19.729 --> 00:21:28.538
Because I think what we're talking about now is fundamental to seeing the benefits from any investment you make in building capability.
00:21:28.739 --> 00:21:35.743
Because unless you're sure, That, that skill has changed and is sustained over a period of time.
00:21:35.804 --> 00:21:35.983
Yeah.
00:21:36.074 --> 00:21:37.544
You're not gonna get any benefits from it.
00:21:37.753 --> 00:21:41.443
And if you're a good manager, that will be part of your process.
00:21:41.493 --> 00:21:43.963
So what we're talking about is topping and tailing it.
00:21:44.233 --> 00:21:57.044
Doing that before you send someone on an intervention of any kind, not just courses, being really clear about what you want them to get out of this project, out of the shadowing, out of this coaching, and then tailing it.
00:21:57.713 --> 00:21:58.564
What happened?
00:21:58.564 --> 00:21:59.294
What did you learn?
00:21:59.574 --> 00:22:00.673
How will you apply it?
00:22:00.973 --> 00:22:13.364
And this is, really helpful conversation, Amanda, because I think, you know, that we tend to take a very simplistic view of building capability back to our first point, which is, can you just do me a training course on X?
00:22:14.203 --> 00:22:19.894
Whereas actually, when we got into the subject, there are options to what you actually do to build capability.
00:22:20.354 --> 00:22:25.463
So, if I do the sustainability stuff to make sure that, that I'm going to see the benefits.
00:22:25.523 --> 00:22:33.753
There's the obvious benefit of the improved performance, but presumably there are other benefits to investing in building capability as well.
00:22:33.804 --> 00:22:35.023
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:35.324 --> 00:22:47.854
I mean, your reputation as an employer is very Very often what features in your employee brand is your commitment to developing people, right?
00:22:47.923 --> 00:22:52.433
When you join an organization, very often what you're looking for is how will I be developed?
00:22:52.463 --> 00:22:53.943
How does my CV grow?
00:22:54.243 --> 00:22:59.284
Not just around the role, but what investment a community has made to Well, that's very interesting.
00:22:59.294 --> 00:23:12.114
If I rate the organizations I have worked for from best to worst, actually thinking about it, that's very closely linked to The amount they invested in me in training and development.
00:23:12.114 --> 00:23:14.703
And that's well known and understood.
00:23:14.703 --> 00:23:19.903
If you look at many of the kind of awards that employers are kind of, kind of sign up for.
00:23:19.903 --> 00:23:21.114
Things like great places to work.
00:23:21.614 --> 00:23:33.523
It's not the only thing that they look for, but one of the things they will definitely mind for, is You know, how much you invest in developing the skills of the people in your organisation as a criteria for whether or not this is a great place to work.
00:23:34.003 --> 00:23:47.834
Another thing is, regulators, customers should expect that you are, as a business, investing in the skilling and re skilling and up skilling, that continuous investment in the development of the people that are doing the work for them, right?
00:23:48.021 --> 00:23:49.051
So, let's think about it.
00:23:49.061 --> 00:24:03.791
If we said, like, I don't know, next month we're going to have, you need to have an operation, how do you fancy that surgeon who has not done any kind of training or development to make sure their skills are nice and, I was going to use the word sharp, maybe that's inappropriate in this conversation.
00:24:04.006 --> 00:24:06.817
trust me when I'm going to see a surgeon, I want some sharp
00:24:06.919 --> 00:24:07.184
skills.
00:24:07.184 --> 00:24:12.551
You want someone who's got some sharp, but really some recent investment in latest technique, right?
00:24:12.571 --> 00:24:12.592
Yeah.
00:24:12.612 --> 00:24:13.872
You don't want someone who is
00:24:13.981 --> 00:24:15.001
been plodding
00:24:15.116 --> 00:24:16.646
just been plodding along in the same old way.
00:24:17.682 --> 00:24:19.221
So, where does that get us?
00:24:19.237 --> 00:24:20.384
For me,
00:24:20.413 --> 00:24:22.034
it starts with,
00:24:22.044 --> 00:24:22.884
please,
00:24:22.884 --> 00:24:27.653
please, please, please try not to come with the solution in mind.
00:24:27.663 --> 00:24:30.213
If you want to have a conversation with your learning team,
00:24:30.297 --> 00:24:31.005
share with them
00:24:31.013 --> 00:24:37.614
share with them what it is you're trying to achieve and then expect this exploration of what's the best route to deliver that.
00:24:37.614 --> 00:24:37.693
I
00:24:37.804 --> 00:24:39.594
I think you've been far too polite Amanda.
00:24:39.594 --> 00:24:40.763
It's not please, please, please.
00:24:40.773 --> 00:24:46.473
It is, if you want to get the best outcomes, don't come with a solution in mind.
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:47.368
Yeah, that's it.
00:24:47.719 --> 00:24:48.409
Much better said.
00:24:48.983 --> 00:24:49.943
No, just less polite.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:55.010
You've got a number of options when you decide you want to build capability.
00:24:55.191 --> 00:24:56.931
It isn't just about a training course.
00:24:56.980 --> 00:25:02.381
You can buy in the skills either through outsourcing or through recruitment.
00:25:02.455 --> 00:25:02.726
Yeah.
00:25:03.145 --> 00:25:03.955
Listen to a great podcast.
00:25:04.045 --> 00:25:05.010
great podcast.
00:25:05.010 --> 00:25:05.790
Absolutely.
00:25:06.413 --> 00:25:19.923
You shared with us a really helpful process to follow in terms of thinking about what's the future state you want to get to, what's the current state, gap analysis, solution and then review.
00:25:19.932 --> 00:25:25.613
And then there is a whole range of activities that you can do to build people's capability.
00:25:25.623 --> 00:25:29.093
Isn't just about sending people on a training course.
00:25:29.103 --> 00:25:46.103
So you shared some of the different options that are maybe cheaper, more accessible, and probably more effective, and also some of the best practices in terms of sustaining that skill to make sure that you really see the benefits from a training course, or any intervention.
00:25:47.117 --> 00:25:49.057
just requires a little bit of creativity,
00:25:49.383 --> 00:25:56.817
And most importantly, by doing it the way that you're suggesting, As well as seeing improved performance.
00:25:56.837 --> 00:26:00.248
So James's customer satisfaction issues will be sorted out.
00:26:00.248 --> 00:26:04.528
There are a range of other spin off benefits that you'll get as well.
00:26:04.618 --> 00:26:05.390
as well.
00:26:05.657 --> 00:26:06.288
Thanks, Amanda.
00:26:06.288 --> 00:26:07.877
That was really very helpful.
00:26:08.208 --> 00:26:16.778
If people want to learn more, because it's not as simple as you found out in the last half an hour or so, and there's a lot more to it.
00:26:17.057 --> 00:26:20.708
If they want to know more about building their people's capability, get in touch.
00:26:20.768 --> 00:26:21.968
Yeah, get in touch.
00:26:21.978 --> 00:26:26.778
So, you'll find me on LinkedIn and you can, I hope, reach me through you.
00:26:26.867 --> 00:26:28.307
Yeah, it's all on the show notes.
00:26:28.438 --> 00:26:28.807
Great.
00:26:28.817 --> 00:26:29.238
Absolutely.
00:26:29.607 --> 00:26:29.998
All right.
00:26:30.188 --> 00:26:31.218
Thank you again, Amanda.
00:26:31.557 --> 00:26:32.387
My pleasure.
00:26:32.428 --> 00:26:33.057
Been great fun.
00:26:33.057 --> 00:26:33.448
Thank you.
00:26:34.478 --> 00:26:35.077
Thanks everyone.
00:26:35.298 --> 00:26:35.678
Cheers, now.
00:26:35.728 --> 00:26:36.077
Bye.
00:26:36.788 --> 00:26:46.288
We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done.
00:26:46.928 --> 00:26:48.387
So if you've got.
00:26:49.038 --> 00:26:53.928
Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck.
00:26:54.698 --> 00:27:09.587
If your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver, we can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations.
00:27:10.097 --> 00:27:12.817
Get in touch at Jimmy at jobdonewell.
00:27:13.817 --> 00:27:15.288
com or James at jobdonewell.
00:27:15.667 --> 00:27:15.778
com.
00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:04.490
Hello, I'm James.
00:00:05.030 --> 00:00:11.470
Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, a podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.
00:00:15.365 --> 00:00:16.396
Good afternoon, how are you doing?
00:00:17.025 --> 00:00:18.115
Alright, I'm doing well.
00:00:18.115 --> 00:00:18.655
How are you doing
00:00:18.725 --> 00:00:20.596
I'm doing fabulously, thank you.
00:00:20.596 --> 00:00:23.326
I have got the delightful Amanda sitting next to me.
00:00:23.545 --> 00:00:25.765
So my day is going very well.
00:00:26.365 --> 00:00:27.216
Welcome Amanda.
00:00:27.236 --> 00:00:28.315
Thank you, nice to be back.
00:00:29.071 --> 00:00:42.220
Today we are following up last week's episode where we talked about James's magic bullet of building capability and how that can yield benefits in any and every situation virtually.
00:00:42.871 --> 00:00:52.530
And Today we thought we would explore building people's capability we have our resident learning and development guru to help us with that.
00:00:52.771 --> 00:01:03.301
So Amanda's going to talk us through how we should think about building people's capability, something that I know touches many of our lives as we try and improve our performance at work.
00:01:04.260 --> 00:01:06.751
So James, what have you been up to recently?
00:01:07.081 --> 00:01:13.061
Well, the most interesting thing I've done recently is to get ahead of the game on this particular episode.
00:01:13.290 --> 00:01:16.551
I listened to the last episode, on double speed, and it's amazing.
00:01:16.570 --> 00:01:17.561
Are we twice as effective?
00:01:17.581 --> 00:01:17.820
We're
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:20.131
twice as effective, and we sound like Smurfs.
00:01:20.150 --> 00:01:21.391
We are the management Smurfs.
00:01:21.641 --> 00:01:25.641
So if anybody's listening to this, you skip forward double speed, it's all going.
00:01:26.521 --> 00:01:27.634
Thanks for
00:01:27.911 --> 00:01:31.631
Well, save Smurf experience for free.
00:01:32.631 --> 00:01:38.971
Well, since the last episode, I have been focused on trying to fix the wheels of my car.
00:01:39.180 --> 00:01:41.111
It's a leased car and it's going back soon.
00:01:41.460 --> 00:01:48.090
And due to my high skilled driving, I have managed to scuff the alloys on all four sides.
00:01:48.340 --> 00:01:51.117
So before I take it back, I need
00:01:51.376 --> 00:01:54.075
Yeah, you'd think all alloys get scuffed on cars, don't they?
00:01:54.146 --> 00:01:55.296
Because mine, they're dreadful.
00:01:55.536 --> 00:02:00.296
Well, funny enough, I looked up on their wear and tear guidelines.
00:02:00.695 --> 00:02:05.775
I'm allowed five centimeters of scuffs in total on any wheel.
00:02:05.881 --> 00:02:08.931
So I went and looked at my wheels to see, could I get away with it?
00:02:09.181 --> 00:02:10.725
And the first wheel had a scuff.
00:02:10.996 --> 00:02:13.575
Five centimeters that were clearer scuffs.
00:02:13.756 --> 00:02:15.675
So I feel I have to get something done about
00:02:15.746 --> 00:02:17.686
What's the consequence when you're,
00:02:17.911 --> 00:02:18.133
did you say?
00:02:18.466 --> 00:02:22.515
Well, what happens is they'll take the car back and they'll send you a bill.
00:02:22.695 --> 00:02:22.725
Okay.
00:02:22.786 --> 00:02:24.316
For a fortune
00:02:24.366 --> 00:02:28.006
Is this why, where I live, every clown parks on the flipping pavement?
00:02:28.026 --> 00:02:30.225
Because they're all leased cars and they don't want to scuff the wheels.
00:02:30.270 --> 00:02:30.901
quite probably
00:02:31.156 --> 00:02:31.165
Oh.
00:02:31.165 --> 00:02:33.433
Yeah, what falls its place.
00:02:33.433 --> 00:02:33.887
Yeah.
00:02:33.887 --> 00:02:34.341
Right.
00:02:34.341 --> 00:02:34.401
Yeah.
00:02:34.971 --> 00:02:35.300
Anyway,
00:02:35.420 --> 00:02:36.241
Amanda, welcome.
00:02:36.251 --> 00:02:38.711
What have you been up to since you were last with us?
00:02:38.781 --> 00:02:41.811
Well, interestingly, actually trying to sell a car at
00:02:41.883 --> 00:02:42.608
one point.
00:02:42.950 --> 00:02:49.640
And using one of those, well, actually getting quotes from several of those websites where they promise to buy that Your car from you.
00:02:49.700 --> 00:02:49.971
Yeah.
00:02:50.001 --> 00:02:51.350
Any car apparently.
00:02:51.860 --> 00:02:52.820
And they quote you a
00:02:52.991 --> 00:02:54.471
We rip you off from any car.
00:02:54.471 --> 00:02:55.757
I think they're
00:02:55.941 --> 00:02:57.080
to price.
00:02:57.230 --> 00:02:59.360
And you go in thinking, oh, that's not too bad.
00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:00.260
Yes, I'll take that deal.
00:03:00.260 --> 00:03:01.252
And then you get there and then.
00:03:01.466 --> 00:03:03.466
Someone inspects your car and
00:03:03.485 --> 00:03:04.695
knocks you down
00:03:05.626 --> 00:03:11.436
like drastically so that was just a whole joy in a new world that I've not been involved in before.
00:03:11.795 --> 00:03:15.996
In the past, we've sort of traded our car in against another, but this whole experience was
00:03:16.096 --> 00:03:17.006
experience was disappointing.
00:03:17.006 --> 00:03:18.336
But that is their business model.
00:03:18.336 --> 00:03:19.366
That is how they do it.
00:03:19.695 --> 00:03:19.855
Sure do.
00:03:20.526 --> 00:03:22.346
Right, so, let's move on.
00:03:22.635 --> 00:03:25.395
We are going to talk about people capability
00:03:25.626 --> 00:03:35.075
Just to recap, last week we shared the details of a magic bullet, if you like, to solving many organizations problems.
00:03:35.366 --> 00:03:36.786
And that's building capability.
00:03:36.806 --> 00:03:43.306
And true to form, when we talked about building capability James talked about building the system's capability.
00:03:43.306 --> 00:03:50.645
So looking at everything from the technology to the processes to the environment, you name it, it's included.
00:03:50.885 --> 00:03:53.515
And I talked about building people's capability.
00:03:53.545 --> 00:03:56.656
But then we decided you didn't know what we were talking about, so we've invited Amanda.
00:03:56.846 --> 00:03:57.006
Exactly.
00:03:58.241 --> 00:04:06.371
We, we realized that building people's capabilities is easier said than done, and Amanda has Many years, of experience of doing this.
00:04:06.381 --> 00:04:20.240
So we thought we'd get along to share some of the ways of thinking about this that will help you build the capability that you need in your, well, either yourself or in your team or in your unit or organization.
00:04:20.370 --> 00:04:20.891
Hang on.
00:04:21.380 --> 00:04:22.471
Isn't this really simple?
00:04:23.151 --> 00:04:23.511
Go on then.
00:04:23.750 --> 00:04:24.050
Tell us more.
00:04:24.060 --> 00:04:24.401
Well,
00:04:24.706 --> 00:04:25.105
it.
00:04:25.531 --> 00:04:29.180
if you want some capability in your people, you send them on a training course, don't you?
00:04:29.370 --> 00:04:30.271
I mean, how difficult can it be?
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:32.430
Yeah.
00:04:32.540 --> 00:04:33.110
Do you know what?
00:04:33.151 --> 00:04:35.261
That's not an unusual start position.
00:04:35.341 --> 00:04:37.281
I'm going to tell you, many people start there.
00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:53.120
And All of my years, being a learning and development consultant very often, the starting point for the conversation is, I need this particular training course, or I need a two hour session with, or I need a computer based training.
00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:54.761
So the start point for the conversation
00:04:54.880 --> 00:04:55.363
for
00:04:55.531 --> 00:05:00.841
is almost inevitably the solution or pointing towards a solution.
00:05:00.841 --> 00:05:03.000
But the customers are always right, you know.
00:05:03.031 --> 00:05:03.261
Yeah.
00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:03.990
Oh yeah.
00:05:04.055 --> 00:05:04.538
know.
00:05:04.538 --> 00:05:11.786
And there is the curse of senior leaders throughout the world, they start with a solution in mind.
00:05:12.105 --> 00:05:24.146
So whether it is building capability or building the systems capability they always come and I know because I've been guilty of doing it myself, is can I have a training course?
00:05:24.206 --> 00:05:25.435
Can I have a new system?
00:05:26.526 --> 00:05:28.805
Whatever it is, start with a solution in mind.
00:05:29.165 --> 00:05:35.475
And that almost always hamstrings your ability to get the best solution and therefore the best outcome.
00:05:35.475 --> 00:05:37.245
So how would you suggest we start?
00:05:37.245 --> 00:05:38.295
So for
00:05:38.295 --> 00:05:43.386
me the conversation, and you know, let's be forgiving of this, why not?
00:05:43.625 --> 00:05:44.406
You might well start.
00:05:44.446 --> 00:05:47.625
If you're thinking about people capability you might start with, I need some training.
00:05:48.005 --> 00:05:54.235
Really the start point for the conversation for me is, what's the problem you're trying to solve?
00:05:54.545 --> 00:05:56.386
What is it you're actually trying to do?
00:05:57.165 --> 00:05:58.005
I
00:05:58.315 --> 00:05:58.956
the business problem.
00:05:59.721 --> 00:06:05.180
So my business problem might be, for example, I don't know, my customer service has gone to hell in a handcart.
00:06:05.238 --> 00:06:06.338
hell in a
00:06:06.341 --> 00:06:06.540
Yeah.
00:06:06.690 --> 00:06:07.000
Yeah.
00:06:07.401 --> 00:06:08.401
Yeah, there might well be that.
00:06:08.571 --> 00:06:09.521
Right, but then
00:06:09.605 --> 00:06:13.065
So that's a better starting point than I want a training course, yeah?
00:06:13.230 --> 00:06:16.100
the outcome that you're actually trying to drive in your organisation.
00:06:16.451 --> 00:06:19.930
Because that leads you then to a number of options, as we know.
00:06:20.331 --> 00:06:36.531
But if we focus on the people options here Well, no, hang on, so But those options could be, yeah, technology solution, it could be a process solution, could be a change in policy, yeah, and it might be both as well.
00:06:36.531 --> 00:06:37.216
Yeah, and or, yeah, yeah, and, and.
00:06:37.216 --> 00:06:37.511
It would be
00:06:37.766 --> 00:06:43.865
Invariably, on something as broad as that, it There is never one solution.
00:06:43.865 --> 00:06:53.386
So let's just for the sake of this discussion, let's assume we have done or are doing those other things for those other system capabilities.
00:06:53.925 --> 00:07:01.836
And therefore we do know that we need to build greater capability in our people to help with the outcome of improving customer service.
00:07:01.855 --> 00:07:01.985
There's a
00:07:02.115 --> 00:07:12.146
there's a new skill, capability, knowledge that you need within your organisation that marries with anything else that you're going to change and driving towards a particular outcome.
00:07:12.156 --> 00:07:12.406
Yeah.
00:07:13.305 --> 00:07:15.115
Then you've got some options, quite frankly.
00:07:15.235 --> 00:07:23.880
So, people often say, Again, often start with training, but actually when you think about your people capabilities there are a number of routes that you could go down.
00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:28.680
For example, you could outsource for that capability.
00:07:28.831 --> 00:07:34.730
If you're talking organizational level, you might find that capability outside of your own organization.
00:07:35.341 --> 00:07:37.391
Buy it in.
00:07:37.391 --> 00:07:38.350
And when would you want to do that?
00:07:38.350 --> 00:07:40.290
What would be a good example of doing that?
00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:53.170
Well, I think when you've got the situation that you've either got to grow very quickly or you know, there's organizations that can provide that at a, cheaper price.
00:07:53.471 --> 00:07:58.050
They're often some of the things that people think about outsourcing being a good option.
00:07:58.091 --> 00:08:01.500
Yeah, so I suppose a good example, a niche example, would be payroll.
00:08:01.661 --> 00:08:01.947
Yeah.
00:08:02.011 --> 00:08:06.521
Yeah, you probably wouldn't want to train people in payroll skills, you'd just outsource it in Hampton.
00:08:06.961 --> 00:08:07.221
Yeah,
00:08:07.326 --> 00:08:11.165
you can outsource on volume or outsource on skills.
00:08:11.175 --> 00:08:15.225
So I don't think I can build, teams of web developers.
00:08:15.365 --> 00:08:20.005
So rather than try and build lots of capabilities around that, I outsource that capability.
00:08:20.891 --> 00:08:21.300
What else?
00:08:21.961 --> 00:08:25.230
Another option might be that you need to hire in this skill.
00:08:25.690 --> 00:08:31.771
So rather than teach it within your organisation, actually, you need to hire someone for this skillset.
00:08:32.140 --> 00:08:34.010
Yeah, okay, same question.
00:08:34.010 --> 00:08:36.380
When would I want to do that rather than training?
00:08:36.380 --> 00:08:37.070
Well, I
00:08:37.176 --> 00:08:42.865
Well, I think you've, you've probably, well, both of us have been hired at times for the skill and knowledge, believe it or not.
00:08:42.923 --> 00:08:44.301
the structure and whatnot.
00:08:44.301 --> 00:08:46.711
Yeah, you can always fool some people.
00:08:46.711 --> 00:08:48.630
Yeah, but I think that's the point, isn't it?
00:08:48.640 --> 00:08:57.711
So if it is a, what, a fairly niche skill, not something that you want in depth across your organisation, a specific points problem, then hiring might be a better
00:08:57.850 --> 00:09:02.051
And it can be individuals or it can be temporary.
00:09:02.250 --> 00:09:14.910
So do you need extra resource temporarily or do you need, you've got a project that you only have to have for some of the time so you don't actually want to skill a load of people up to manage a project that's a one off project, do you?
00:09:15.436 --> 00:09:15.765
Yeah.
00:09:15.765 --> 00:09:17.836
And I think temps is a very good point actually.
00:09:17.885 --> 00:09:21.431
if you have got a time bound problem you need to fix.
00:09:22.181 --> 00:09:25.480
Employing temps or contractors may well be the best way to do that.
00:09:25.541 --> 00:09:25.811
Yeah.
00:09:26.201 --> 00:09:30.671
And some of those things, actually, as we're thinking about it, can be a bridge to.
00:09:31.395 --> 00:09:31.645
your
00:09:32.046 --> 00:09:32.576
state.
00:09:32.625 --> 00:09:37.456
So you might have temps to fill a gap now whilst you think about doing some upskilling.
00:09:37.586 --> 00:09:38.125
modelling.
00:09:38.375 --> 00:09:43.275
Or you might recruit someone in or contract someone in to do a project for you.
00:09:43.275 --> 00:09:48.836
So let's say you were doing something like agile transformation in your organization.
00:09:49.046 --> 00:09:54.025
You might want to bring in some coaches as people within your organization are developing the skill.
00:09:54.336 --> 00:09:59.735
You actually have that kind of higher level mastery almost running alongside.
00:10:00.826 --> 00:10:02.015
Whilst you make that transition.
00:10:02.125 --> 00:10:02.846
Does that make sense?
00:10:04.541 --> 00:10:06.240
The show you're listening to right now.
00:10:06.740 --> 00:10:11.461
Brings you insights to help you improve performance and enjoyment of work.
00:10:12.250 --> 00:10:15.171
It takes a long time to produce, but we think it's well worth it.
00:10:15.551 --> 00:10:17.880
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00:10:18.971 --> 00:10:26.730
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00:10:27.441 --> 00:10:33.120
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00:10:33.780 --> 00:10:34.980
Anyway, let's get back to the show.
00:10:36.976 --> 00:10:37.506
So you've got.
00:10:38.466 --> 00:10:39.187
Recruitment.
00:10:39.187 --> 00:10:40.386
You've got outsourcing.
00:10:40.506 --> 00:10:40.657
Yeah.
00:10:40.777 --> 00:10:47.197
But when is it most appropriate to build the skill, the capability internally in your organization?
00:10:47.376 --> 00:11:00.567
a decision you're going to make for the organisation but you might say this is a skill set that we need more broadly in the organisation for a sustainable period of time or maybe into the future.
00:11:01.057 --> 00:11:08.147
So actually it's worth us investing now in retaining the talent that we have and adding more skills.
00:11:08.557 --> 00:11:09.875
I suppose also because
00:11:09.927 --> 00:11:14.856
remember there's a lot of investment you've made already in your current employee base.
00:11:14.907 --> 00:11:15.116
So
00:11:15.131 --> 00:11:26.216
if you've got a large organization you've got some skill at scale you wouldn't want to necessarily build from the ground up you might be upskilling your current workforce.
00:11:26.456 --> 00:11:35.152
Similarly If something is core to you, like, for example, in insurance companies, you know, underwriting.
00:11:36.081 --> 00:11:49.331
So they would believe underwriting was core for them, yeah, you might hire in underwriters, but often you'll also want to invest quite heavily in that core skill and building that core skill internally.
00:11:49.397 --> 00:11:50.866
Well, and you're investing, aren't you?
00:11:50.866 --> 00:11:53.336
So you're investing in what is critical to your business.
00:11:53.386 --> 00:11:53.726
Yeah.
00:11:53.876 --> 00:12:05.984
And you think of it, and interestingly enough, you think of building capability as an investment as opposed to, yeah, I'm buying something which is more of a, a commodity that you're buying.
00:12:05.984 --> 00:12:06.321
Yeah.
00:12:06.321 --> 00:12:06.994
And I
00:12:07.147 --> 00:12:19.437
And I think there's the, there's this, the associated, and we can talk about benefits in a bit more detail in a while, but of upskilling your people because you maybe want to do it a particular way.
00:12:19.797 --> 00:12:28.126
so on when I got for uni my first graduate job, they were very clear about they wanted things doing a certain way.
00:12:28.657 --> 00:12:30.596
It was part of their organization.
00:12:30.596 --> 00:12:33.537
It was inherent within their culture and within their processes.
00:12:34.216 --> 00:12:38.447
And so they brought a huge number of people through and trained them.
00:12:38.456 --> 00:12:44.807
I was given a huge amount of training, but it was important to them that they That you did it the Unilever way.
00:12:45.317 --> 00:12:46.126
And that's what I mean.
00:12:46.136 --> 00:12:51.030
If you've got, you feel like you've got a particular way so we're clear then that our need is to train.
00:12:51.051 --> 00:12:51.311
Yeah.
00:12:51.730 --> 00:12:53.681
Yeah, but where do I go with that next then?
00:12:54.380 --> 00:12:56.171
Okay, and so that's interesting.
00:12:56.221 --> 00:13:00.160
You know what, the steps to this are quite logical, I think.
00:13:00.260 --> 00:13:03.400
But really what you're going to start with is where am I going to get to?
00:13:03.650 --> 00:13:07.870
So a little bit of analysis around what, what is the skill?
00:13:08.400 --> 00:13:10.941
What does it actually look like when it's happening?
00:13:11.160 --> 00:13:12.600
In the way that I want it to be happening.
00:13:12.980 --> 00:13:15.350
Around the task or the competence.
00:13:15.821 --> 00:13:16.490
What's the skill?
00:13:17.921 --> 00:13:18.921
Where do I want to get to?
00:13:19.030 --> 00:13:21.941
And then let's take a look at what have I got already?
00:13:21.941 --> 00:13:24.591
What is this person capable of doing right now?
00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:28.191
And what you're driving for is what's the gap?
00:13:28.461 --> 00:13:30.370
What's the bit that's missing in between?
00:13:30.870 --> 00:13:37.880
When you understand the difference, what you're designing for then is the intervention that closes that gap.
00:13:38.331 --> 00:13:45.280
That helps them to move from the current state, where I am right now, to the set of skills that I will need into the future.
00:13:46.030 --> 00:13:46.280
Okay,
00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:47.270
got that.
00:13:47.380 --> 00:13:51.571
So, and that makes a lot of sense because if you're not clear about what you're trying to achieve, you won't do it.
00:13:51.730 --> 00:13:53.770
It's kind of like linked to the purpose stuff that you
00:13:53.792 --> 00:13:54.741
to the purpose.
00:13:54.741 --> 00:14:04.368
And The way you've described it, that must apply if I am, James's example of, we need to improve customer service in this organization.
00:14:04.727 --> 00:14:13.837
But equally, it would apply if I'm a frontline manager, and I want to improve the performance of my team, or if I'm an individual.
00:14:14.903 --> 00:14:15.283
that just
00:14:15.283 --> 00:14:19.383
needs to improve their performance, that same process of where do I want to get to?
00:14:19.413 --> 00:14:20.283
Where am I now?
00:14:20.312 --> 00:14:21.062
What's the gap?
00:14:21.102 --> 00:14:22.163
What's the solution?
00:14:22.552 --> 00:14:24.493
You can follow that process, can't you?
00:14:24.602 --> 00:14:25.842
In a whole range of
00:14:26.552 --> 00:14:28.003
Yeah, absolutely you can.
00:14:28.283 --> 00:14:38.313
I mean, when we're talking about FLM and our manager population, really what we're Asking them to do is help their team to build development action as well.
00:14:38.313 --> 00:14:39.220
Sorry I fell in.
00:14:39.220 --> 00:14:39.673
Frontline management.
00:14:39.673 --> 00:14:40.352
I'm so sorry.
00:14:40.352 --> 00:14:40.623
Yeah.
00:14:40.962 --> 00:14:42.812
So it's, it's about your development action plan.
00:14:43.673 --> 00:14:47.038
I would imagine it can be top performers that want to get even better.
00:14:47.148 --> 00:14:47.638
Yes, please.
00:14:47.648 --> 00:14:48.748
Let's not make this remedial.
00:14:48.975 --> 00:14:52.332
Or it could be an underperformer on a performance plan.
00:14:52.633 --> 00:15:00.513
But following the same process will get you the best interventions that you can possibly get.
00:15:00.732 --> 00:15:00.962
Yeah.
00:15:01.577 --> 00:15:07.687
right thing I would urge is investing the time in thinking about what that needs to look
00:15:07.809 --> 00:15:08.600
look like.
00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:14.288
But again, without doing, the solution is, I need training on X.
00:15:14.418 --> 00:15:23.307
It's actually, what's the gap, what's the, really understanding it well enough that you can get the intervention that really helps this person.
00:15:23.307 --> 00:15:28.177
And from the conversations we've had, the interventions are not just training courses.
00:15:28.217 --> 00:15:29.528
Not just training courses.
00:15:29.567 --> 00:15:30.937
There are a range of things we could do.
00:15:30.947 --> 00:15:32.827
So other than just training, what else could I do?
00:15:32.908 --> 00:16:02.023
Yeah, well so this requires maybe a little bit of creative thinking, but actually sometimes these opportunities are available within your organization and readily available within your team so some work shadowing for example maybe you have an employee that's doing this job already and someone that wants to you want to teach that skill you want to reskill to be able to actually perform that job now or in the future actually spend some time just watching and observing how someone else is doing it.
00:16:02.072 --> 00:16:13.442
if you're doing some job shadowing, you've actually gone through that activity as the person being developed, what's the conversation that you then have with your manager about, okay, what did you learn?
00:16:13.462 --> 00:16:14.043
What else?
00:16:14.192 --> 00:16:15.363
What do we need to add to that?
00:16:15.673 --> 00:16:17.832
So rather than it being one solution, that's it,
00:16:17.918 --> 00:16:18.207
it.
00:16:19.217 --> 00:16:26.148
Actually, maybe you would couple your work shadowing now with some coaching or a teach to learn exercise.
00:16:26.368 --> 00:16:28.238
So I've now learned to do this task.
00:16:28.238 --> 00:16:29.658
I'm going to teach someone else.
00:16:29.988 --> 00:16:36.057
And by that, what I'm trying to describe there is you're continuing to layer the capability.
00:16:36.347 --> 00:16:40.567
actually you're making an intervention that adds richness, breadth and depth.
00:16:40.993 --> 00:16:41.842
Do you see what I mean?
00:16:42.592 --> 00:16:47.873
It's lazy management and lazy development to just do one thing, tick in the box.
00:16:47.873 --> 00:16:48.212
That's it.
00:16:48.253 --> 00:16:49.692
Our people are now capable.
00:16:49.880 --> 00:16:56.163
But I think that's why often people are, are attracted towards training courses because it's almost
00:16:56.441 --> 00:16:57.154
like Once
00:16:57.192 --> 00:17:00.442
yeah, just go and send them on a training course, sorts, sorts these things out.
00:17:00.753 --> 00:17:08.712
And actually, some of these things you're now starting to talk about are, they're, they're cheaper, they're much more accessible and often they're more effective.
00:17:08.752 --> 00:17:11.113
I mean, that, that last one you mentioned, going.
00:17:11.488 --> 00:17:12.728
getting somebody to teach the
00:17:12.742 --> 00:17:13.252
skill up.
00:17:13.432 --> 00:17:13.692
Yeah.
00:17:13.778 --> 00:17:16.627
That's, wasn't it that's one of Covey's isn't it?
00:17:16.637 --> 00:17:16.657
Yeah.
00:17:17.038 --> 00:17:20.377
And it's hugely effective when you actually practice that.
00:17:20.647 --> 00:17:23.548
Because it really does test out, have you really learned this?
00:17:23.567 --> 00:17:23.887
Well.
00:17:23.897 --> 00:17:25.518
That's a top tip for anyone listening.
00:17:25.518 --> 00:17:30.968
In all seriousness now, that's, I, I think, I don't know, Watch something on the television tonight.
00:17:30.998 --> 00:17:52.157
Have a conversation with someone and then do the exercise for yourself of going away and Explaining to someone else what you learned takes it from that that exercise Because it will take it uses a different part of your brain to be able to kind of explain it and teach it to someone else So we've talked about work shadowing.
00:17:52.238 --> 00:17:52.617
Yep.
00:17:53.025 --> 00:17:53.422
Yep.
00:17:53.548 --> 00:17:55.278
We've talked about training other people.
00:17:55.458 --> 00:17:55.667
Yes.
00:17:56.178 --> 00:17:56.988
What else is there?
00:17:56.998 --> 00:17:58.688
Maybe you could work with a coach.
00:17:58.778 --> 00:17:59.028
Yeah.
00:17:59.048 --> 00:18:00.107
Or a mentor.
00:18:00.317 --> 00:18:20.667
So in that case, actually, someone's assigned alongside you to be able to explore what your current performance is and to help you create some plans and some strategies and some exercises Something I don't usually do, but actually I'm going to give you that task in order that you can learn this new skill set.
00:18:21.067 --> 00:18:27.897
So I'm urging managers and teams and organizations is to be intentional about this.
00:18:28.097 --> 00:18:33.688
Not just a project for the sake of project, but if it's a developmental project, what are you expecting me to get out of it?
00:18:34.317 --> 00:18:44.567
What skill am I expected to learn or do I want to learn and what project are you going to select in order that we can make sure that I do actually get exposure and an opportunity to grow that skill?
00:18:45.468 --> 00:18:54.087
And the other thing actually that we very often forget about is what skills and opportunities do people have outside of their working environment?
00:18:55.008 --> 00:19:01.678
So I might work in, I don't know, let's say I work in your call center for, you know, I'm doing a job.
00:19:01.718 --> 00:19:06.567
I'm handling customer calls, but I've always wanted to be a team leader.
00:19:07.018 --> 00:19:12.147
And one of the skills that you need from me is to be able to coach and support others.
00:19:12.728 --> 00:19:33.117
Well, what if outside of work, I'm actually coaching local football team how do you get to know your people well enough, if you're really thinking about their capability, to say, are there activities that they're doing outside of work, where actually they have skills that aren't exposed inside the work environment, but if we think about that creatively, we can apply
00:19:33.758 --> 00:19:33.867
in work?
00:19:34.538 --> 00:19:42.887
I'd imagine that's, that's a pretty powerful and, and unused opportunity because I don't think that individuals necessarily always think.
00:19:43.252 --> 00:19:48.522
The things I do outside of work, the skills I build outside work, using them in work.
00:19:49.173 --> 00:19:55.143
And often, managers don't know that much about their team members to help them identify.
00:19:55.173 --> 00:20:02.303
So having some of those open conversations and then working what's transferable, is a really great opportunity.
00:20:02.752 --> 00:20:03.002
Absolutely.
00:20:03.583 --> 00:20:06.813
And what do you think about certification?
00:20:06.813 --> 00:20:11.093
By which I mean, how do you make sure that people did get the skills that you were hoping to get?
00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:12.032
to get?
00:20:12.032 --> 00:20:12.732
So,
00:20:13.712 --> 00:20:24.452
There are a number of ways you can do that So if let's now let's go back to training courses very often at the end of a training course You will have a quiz or an assessment.
00:20:24.452 --> 00:20:29.148
Yes that actually tests that you've taken on board a particular subject knowledge piece.
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:31.308
There'll be a quiz at the end, a knowledge quiz.
00:20:31.858 --> 00:20:32.919
Or observation.
00:20:33.148 --> 00:20:41.852
So I remember when I was being taught to deliver behavioral interview skills training, you've probably been through that training yourself.
00:20:41.852 --> 00:20:49.963
Actually, there was an assessor, at the end, who observed me run an interview, a bit like when you take your driving test actually.
00:20:50.334 --> 00:20:56.634
You've got someone alongside saying, here's the standard that we want this person to meet.
00:20:57.344 --> 00:21:00.673
How, are they, are they actually meeting that, that standard?
00:21:00.763 --> 00:21:01.203
Another,
00:21:01.278 --> 00:21:01.309
a another?
00:21:01.315 --> 00:21:11.398
Another good example back to the training course piece, but when you go back to the workplace, Does your manager ever talk to you about what have you learned, how are you going to put it into place?
00:21:11.628 --> 00:21:19.719
Because that was always another good way of ensuring that the learnings from whatever the intervention was, were put into place in the workplace.
00:21:19.729 --> 00:21:28.538
Because I think what we're talking about now is fundamental to seeing the benefits from any investment you make in building capability.
00:21:28.739 --> 00:21:35.743
Because unless you're sure, That, that skill has changed and is sustained over a period of time.
00:21:35.804 --> 00:21:35.983
Yeah.
00:21:36.074 --> 00:21:37.544
You're not gonna get any benefits from it.
00:21:37.753 --> 00:21:41.443
And if you're a good manager, that will be part of your process.
00:21:41.493 --> 00:21:43.963
So what we're talking about is topping and tailing it.
00:21:44.233 --> 00:21:57.044
Doing that before you send someone on an intervention of any kind, not just courses, being really clear about what you want them to get out of this project, out of the shadowing, out of this coaching, and then tailing it.
00:21:57.713 --> 00:21:58.564
What happened?
00:21:58.564 --> 00:21:59.294
What did you learn?
00:21:59.574 --> 00:22:00.673
How will you apply it?
00:22:00.973 --> 00:22:13.364
And this is, really helpful conversation, Amanda, because I think, you know, that we tend to take a very simplistic view of building capability back to our first point, which is, can you just do me a training course on X?
00:22:14.203 --> 00:22:19.894
Whereas actually, when we got into the subject, there are options to what you actually do to build capability.
00:22:20.354 --> 00:22:25.463
So, if I do the sustainability stuff to make sure that, that I'm going to see the benefits.
00:22:25.523 --> 00:22:33.753
There's the obvious benefit of the improved performance, but presumably there are other benefits to investing in building capability as well.
00:22:33.804 --> 00:22:35.023
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:35.324 --> 00:22:47.854
I mean, your reputation as an employer is very Very often what features in your employee brand is your commitment to developing people, right?
00:22:47.923 --> 00:22:52.433
When you join an organization, very often what you're looking for is how will I be developed?
00:22:52.463 --> 00:22:53.943
How does my CV grow?
00:22:54.243 --> 00:22:59.284
Not just around the role, but what investment a community has made to Well, that's very interesting.
00:22:59.294 --> 00:23:12.114
If I rate the organizations I have worked for from best to worst, actually thinking about it, that's very closely linked to The amount they invested in me in training and development.
00:23:12.114 --> 00:23:14.703
And that's well known and understood.
00:23:14.703 --> 00:23:19.903
If you look at many of the kind of awards that employers are kind of, kind of sign up for.
00:23:19.903 --> 00:23:21.114
Things like great places to work.
00:23:21.614 --> 00:23:33.523
It's not the only thing that they look for, but one of the things they will definitely mind for, is You know, how much you invest in developing the skills of the people in your organisation as a criteria for whether or not this is a great place to work.
00:23:34.003 --> 00:23:47.834
Another thing is, regulators, customers should expect that you are, as a business, investing in the skilling and re skilling and up skilling, that continuous investment in the development of the people that are doing the work for them, right?
00:23:48.021 --> 00:23:49.051
So, let's think about it.
00:23:49.061 --> 00:24:03.791
If we said, like, I don't know, next month we're going to have, you need to have an operation, how do you fancy that surgeon who has not done any kind of training or development to make sure their skills are nice and, I was going to use the word sharp, maybe that's inappropriate in this conversation.
00:24:04.006 --> 00:24:06.817
trust me when I'm going to see a surgeon, I want some sharp
00:24:06.919 --> 00:24:07.184
skills.
00:24:07.184 --> 00:24:12.551
You want someone who's got some sharp, but really some recent investment in latest technique, right?
00:24:12.571 --> 00:24:12.592
Yeah.
00:24:12.612 --> 00:24:13.872
You don't want someone who is
00:24:13.981 --> 00:24:15.001
been plodding
00:24:15.116 --> 00:24:16.646
just been plodding along in the same old way.
00:24:17.682 --> 00:24:19.221
So, where does that get us?
00:24:19.237 --> 00:24:20.384
For me,
00:24:20.413 --> 00:24:22.034
it starts with,
00:24:22.044 --> 00:24:22.884
please,
00:24:22.884 --> 00:24:27.653
please, please, please try not to come with the solution in mind.
00:24:27.663 --> 00:24:30.213
If you want to have a conversation with your learning team,
00:24:30.297 --> 00:24:31.005
share with them
00:24:31.013 --> 00:24:37.614
share with them what it is you're trying to achieve and then expect this exploration of what's the best route to deliver that.
00:24:37.614 --> 00:24:37.693
I
00:24:37.804 --> 00:24:39.594
I think you've been far too polite Amanda.
00:24:39.594 --> 00:24:40.763
It's not please, please, please.
00:24:40.773 --> 00:24:46.473
It is, if you want to get the best outcomes, don't come with a solution in mind.
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:47.368
Yeah, that's it.
00:24:47.719 --> 00:24:48.409
Much better said.
00:24:48.983 --> 00:24:49.943
No, just less polite.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:55.010
You've got a number of options when you decide you want to build capability.
00:24:55.191 --> 00:24:56.931
It isn't just about a training course.
00:24:56.980 --> 00:25:02.381
You can buy in the skills either through outsourcing or through recruitment.
00:25:02.455 --> 00:25:02.726
Yeah.
00:25:03.145 --> 00:25:03.955
Listen to a great podcast.
00:25:04.045 --> 00:25:05.010
great podcast.
00:25:05.010 --> 00:25:05.790
Absolutely.
00:25:06.413 --> 00:25:19.923
You shared with us a really helpful process to follow in terms of thinking about what's the future state you want to get to, what's the current state, gap analysis, solution and then review.
00:25:19.932 --> 00:25:25.613
And then there is a whole range of activities that you can do to build people's capability.
00:25:25.623 --> 00:25:29.093
Isn't just about sending people on a training course.
00:25:29.103 --> 00:25:46.103
So you shared some of the different options that are maybe cheaper, more accessible, and probably more effective, and also some of the best practices in terms of sustaining that skill to make sure that you really see the benefits from a training course, or any intervention.
00:25:47.117 --> 00:25:49.057
just requires a little bit of creativity,
00:25:49.383 --> 00:25:56.817
And most importantly, by doing it the way that you're suggesting, As well as seeing improved performance.
00:25:56.837 --> 00:26:00.248
So James's customer satisfaction issues will be sorted out.
00:26:00.248 --> 00:26:04.528
There are a range of other spin off benefits that you'll get as well.
00:26:04.618 --> 00:26:05.390
as well.
00:26:05.657 --> 00:26:06.288
Thanks, Amanda.
00:26:06.288 --> 00:26:07.877
That was really very helpful.
00:26:08.208 --> 00:26:16.778
If people want to learn more, because it's not as simple as you found out in the last half an hour or so, and there's a lot more to it.
00:26:17.057 --> 00:26:20.708
If they want to know more about building their people's capability, get in touch.
00:26:20.768 --> 00:26:21.968
Yeah, get in touch.
00:26:21.978 --> 00:26:26.778
So, you'll find me on LinkedIn and you can, I hope, reach me through you.
00:26:26.867 --> 00:26:28.307
Yeah, it's all on the show notes.
00:26:28.438 --> 00:26:28.807
Great.
00:26:28.817 --> 00:26:29.238
Absolutely.
00:26:29.607 --> 00:26:29.998
All right.
00:26:30.188 --> 00:26:31.218
Thank you again, Amanda.
00:26:31.557 --> 00:26:32.387
My pleasure.
00:26:32.428 --> 00:26:33.057
Been great fun.
00:26:33.057 --> 00:26:33.448
Thank you.
00:26:34.478 --> 00:26:35.077
Thanks everyone.
00:26:35.298 --> 00:26:35.678
Cheers, now.
00:26:35.728 --> 00:26:36.077
Bye.
00:26:36.788 --> 00:26:46.288
We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done.
00:26:46.928 --> 00:26:48.387
So if you've got.
00:26:49.038 --> 00:26:53.928
Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck.
00:26:54.698 --> 00:27:09.587
If your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver, we can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations.
00:27:10.097 --> 00:27:12.817
Get in touch at Jimmy at jobdonewell.
00:27:13.817 --> 00:27:15.288
com or James at jobdonewell.
00:27:15.667 --> 00:27:15.778
com.
