S1 - #1 Codependency - Origins

1
00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:34,980
Stephanie: Hello, this is Stephanie and this is
Brian. Welcome to our podcast the Making and the
Remaking of a Codependent Mind. This podcast is
about one man's journey through codependency. So
the origins of the codependent behaviors, the
damage the codependent behaviors did in his life,
and then how he eventually was able to understand
those codependent behaviors and through that
understanding was able to heal both from the
codependency and from the trauma that was at the
2
00:00:34,980 --> 00:00:37,740
root of it. And that man, is you.
3
00:00:38,370 --> 00:00:51,510
Brian: That is me. I am Brian the codependent
mind. A codependent mind. And this is our first
episode. In this first episode, we're gonna be
talking about what we mean by codependency first
of all.
4
00:00:51,540 --> 00:00:54,540
Stephanie: Right, because there's a lot of
different uses of that word,
5
00:00:54,600 --> 00:01:11,280
Brian: a lot of misunderstanding, I think a lot of
assumptions based on just the word alone of what
it means. And so not just that, but just kind of
just a basic definition, some explanation of what
we're talking about specifically and then getting
into the origins of how it formed for me specifically,
6
00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:17,620
Stephanie: and then in later episodes, flesh out
various behaviors that we tie back to codependency
7
00:01:17,650 --> 00:01:26,650
Brian: Yes, because there's a lot of kind of
related behaviors that sort of work together to
make the codependency deeper and stronger and
tougher to to recognize and get out of,
8
00:01:26,950 --> 00:01:41,560
Stephanie: And each episode be that format where
we'll go back and forth between your own story and
what we've learned about codependency. Why don't
you read the definition, the kind of working
definition that high level definition that we're
that we're going to use?
9
00:01:41,560 --> 00:02:06,100
Brian: Sure, so this is this is this is how we've
come to define it. codependency is an imbalanced
relationship pattern where one person assumes
responsibility for meeting another person's needs,
to the exclusion of acknowledging their own needs
or feelings. The codependent person usually has
low self esteem and will wind up denying their own
identity to some extent, when they attach
themselves to another often controlling
manipulative or abusive person.
10
00:02:06,310 --> 00:02:35,320
And we should say Here we're using codependent as
an additive to, you know, a codependent mind, the
codependent person, but we are not ascribing
codependency as an intrinsic trait, right. So like
they're tall, you're codependent like you're tall,
or you're an introvert or it is not a personality
trait. It is, again, a relationship pattern, a
collection of behavior,
11
00:02:35,350 --> 00:02:52,660
Right and also, we're not seeing it as some kind
of diagnosis either, you know, like, for one
thing, it's not even recognized. Actually, it's
not it's not recognized as as an actual behavior
disorder necessarily, but we don't it's not really
relevant to what we're talking about here. Anyway,
this is a collection of behaviors.
12
00:02:52,000 --> 00:03:18,070
Stephanie: So it's not necessarily recognized
behavior disorder, but it's disordered behavior.
And when it is so prevalent in your life when was
so prevalent in your life we were calling it
codependency. You were in a state of codependency.
Because the behaviors that made up the
codependency were so pervasive, really almost in
relation relationship in your life,
13
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:26,380
Brian: it becomes a habit just like, like any
other habit, it becomes you become completely
accustomed to this way of behaving and thinking,
14
00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:38,260
Stephanie: but we want to avoid and this is
something that you've worked on saying things like
I am, codependent, which suggests that it's, again
some sort of intrinsic trait to who you are,
15
00:03:39,580 --> 00:03:47,800
Brian: we're just learning to cope with that or
something like we're learning to accept the fact
that I am codependent that's definitely not
helpful we've found
16
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:54,370
Stephanie: anyone can fall into codependency and
anyone can get out of codependency it's not a life
sentence as we found with you
17
00:03:54,370 --> 00:03:58,660
Brian: as we found as well as we're going to
explore and this in this podcast.
18
00:03:59,500 --> 00:04:26,230
Stephanie: So working with that definition again
it's an imbalanced relationship pattern and what
we see as key to how we are going to use
codependency is one person assuming responsibility
for meeting another person's needs. I think that's
really what we find to be at the heart of
codependency right which is not always what other
people place is critical to codependency.
19
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:47,450
Brian: I mean, I think the correct definitions
usually at least somewhat hit on the fact that
someone is caretaking for someone else I mean
that's that's a given when it comes to
codependency but I think there's there's a sense
people that just don't really know at all what it
means or thinking that codependency just means
there's two people that are dependent on each
other
20
00:04:47,450 --> 00:04:59,000
Stephanie: A lot of that issue comes from the word
itself. Codependency which is probably actually
not that helpful word, but it comes out of it
comes out of addiction literature,
21
00:04:59,330 --> 00:05:27,080
Brian: It started back in the 1950s with
Alcoholics Anonymous, when it came to the partners
of the alcoholic, so you have the the dependent
person, that person that's dependent on drugs or
alcohol. And then you have the codependent the
person that becomes dependent on helping the
addicted person for whatever reason they and this
is this is where it starts to open up and like,
Why is this person doing this? What are they
getting out of caretaking and enabling the
22
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:27,770
dependency?
23
00:05:27,890 --> 00:05:55,790
Stephanie: So I mean, dependency even in the
context of alcoholism has a problem. You know,
there's always been this struggle for how to
describe this phenomena, the physical and a
psychological and emotional dependency. All of
these things can happen when you become dependent
on drugs or alcohol. But you know, we also talk
about it as an addiction. We talk about it as a
habit, we talk about it as a disease. And all of
the all of those that question of how to
24
00:05:55,820 --> 00:06:07,340
understand drug addiction dependency habit are
equally problematic when we talk about this
cluster of behaviors, that is now falling into the
term of codependency.
25
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:37,630
Brian: So with us, the core important theme here
is that the codependent person, that person with a
codependent behaviors is just somehow gets sucked
into this pattern of meeting other people's needs.
That's it. And then it comes down to who are these
people that they're finding that they're needing
to meet the needs of. And in my case, and in a lot
of people's cases, that is a person that is has
their own habitual pattern of needing to be taken
care of needing their emotions to be regulated and
26
00:06:37,630 --> 00:06:45,310
needing their needs to be met by someone else by
an outside force. In my case, it was abusive,
narcissistic type people.
27
00:06:45,580 --> 00:07:00,670
Stephanie: So I mean, this is why, where
codependent the term, codependency becomes
problematic, because you weren't enmeshed with
people who were dependent on drugs and alcohol,
you were matched with people who wanted their
needs met,
28
00:07:00,730 --> 00:07:32,440
Brian: we're gonna get into a lot of specifics of
the types of relationships that I had and in later
episodes and the additional behaviors that came
out of those but at an at a very basic level, the
abuse dynamic is the the most important key in the
codependency that we're talking about. So trauma,
abuse, and then this dynamic of one person having
all the control in the relationship and the
codependent person me giving over all of my
control my identity, my agency, and then the
29
00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:39,430
behaviors that I came up with to cope with the
shame and everything that came out of those kinds
of interaction.
30
00:07:40,090 --> 00:08:01,420
Stephanie: absolutely there are people who get
matched with drug and alcohol abusers, and they
may be classified as or see themselves as
codependent, they may be dependent on that dynamic
for their own self esteem. But we're kind of doing
a broader swath, there's always a spectrum when it
comes to the severity of behaviors.
31
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:28,600
Brian: And when we're talking about codependency
we're, it crosses this line into this maladaptive
behavior pattern that takes over the life, people
that do caretaking for whatever reason here and
there, because it's just their relationship goes
that direction or something. As long as those
people recognize what they're doing, and they make
an effort to get out of that dynamic, then it's,
it's not quite the same with a codependent person
remains unconscious.
32
00:08:28,690 --> 00:08:55,690
Stephanie: And as you're saying, it's about the
effect it has on one's life, yours really
interfered with almost every relationship that you
formed and put you in situations and relationships
that were toxic to you and abusive. So the use of
maladaptive is key, because it's behaviors that
don't actually deliver anything to your life. They
don't give you satisfaction, they don't give you
they don't get you love, they don't get you
intimacy. They get you the opposite of all of
33
00:08:55,690 --> 00:08:55,930
this,
34
00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:26,230
Brian: at some point, the behaviors, the origin
behaviors like we'll get into started because they
did work. They were a coping mechanism to get
through trauma, in my case, but then the fact that
that trauma was never explored and understood and
realized, then those behaviors just became
maladaptive as you said that now I'm just doing
these behaviors because everything reminds me of
the trauma, childhood trauma, and then the the
lack of, of communication and and intimate
35
00:09:26,230 --> 00:09:49,720
communication with any other people basically. So
I these behaviors were formed, I formed these
behaviors myself to cope with this situation, and
never communicated that with anyone, and didn't
properly form healthy emotional reactions and just
took it from there and constructed this whole way
of dealing with the world through that trauma. l
36
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:55,300
Stephanie: Let's hear more about this traumatic
relationship that you feel is the root of your
codependent behaviors.
37
00:09:55,330 --> 00:10:20,470
Brian: Sure. Okay. I mean, before I get into that,
I do think there's probably multiple sources, you
know, observations and different people in my life
that may have contributed to it. But I see this
one particular friendship from my childhood as
being the main source, particularly because it's
the source of the trauma, and what I think really
led to most of the codependent behaviors. So it
was this childhood friend, it's I met him in
kindergarten. And we were friends until fifth
38
00:10:20,470 --> 00:10:26,980
grade, so about five years. This kid was kind of I
saw him as sort of a scoop school bully.
39
00:10:27,010 --> 00:10:27,910
Stephanie: How did you meet?
40
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:49,990
Brian: We met in kindergarten, we were just we
both were not into playing on the playground,
really. So we were playing in indoors, just like
with some toys, I think it was like a kitchen set
or something. And we just sat down together and
just started playing with this kitchen set. And
then just gravitated towards each other and just
started hanging out exclusively pretty much like
immediately.
41
00:10:50,170 --> 00:10:52,000
Stephanie: So you were anywhere young
kindergartner.
42
00:10:52,480 --> 00:11:02,470
Brian: Yeah, I was especially young. I was the
second youngest in my whole school basically, in
my class. I think it was four when I started. And
most people were five.
43
00:11:02,590 --> 00:11:03,880
Stephanie: So he was your first friend
44
00:11:05,050 --> 00:11:26,290
Brian: Right, because I went to preschool before
that, but I didn't keep in touch with those
people. And those people went to my elementary
school. So you know, this was the first kid I met,
because like maybe on the third day of school or
something, and then those first two years, we were
in the same class. So in kindergarten in first
grade, we were in the same class. But then I don't
really remember much bad happening in this first
couple years, really, I mean, I was really young.
45
00:11:26,350 --> 00:11:49,570
But the teachers saw something, there was
something about the way we behaved. When we were
together we were disruptive. We were disruptive
when we were together. So they separated us every
every year after that we were not supposed to be
in the same class. But there were always two
teachers for every grade. And they put us in a
different class. That was the only, I don't think
they ever did that with anyone else. There was
just us for some reason. I don't know if they told
46
00:11:49,570 --> 00:12:20,920
our parents that or why, you know, I really don't
know. But pretty quickly by partially through
first grade, but but definitely second grade.
These behaviors were coming out in this guy that I
would say were psychotic, I mean, it, the way he
like verbally assaulted and teased, and, and just
kind of emotionally manipulated people, but then
also didn't seem to have any empathy attached to
it. Like he would do things that clearly, like
really hurt people, and then just walk away
47
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:30,220
completely, just whatever with a smile on his
face, like didn't seem like something that you
know, just like giving him pleasure. It was just
like, I don't know, you know, it just he just
seemed insane.
48
00:12:30,820 --> 00:12:33,550
Stephanie: And he would, he would direct a lot of
that towards you.
49
00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:59,070
Brian: Yeah. So I would be it was this kind of
double thing going on, where I had to witness him
doing this to other kids. But then also, he turned
it on me constantly. So because we were together a
lot, not just at school, we hung out after school,
I'd go to his house, we were in Cub Scouts
together, he had a lot of access to me. And these
behaviors were directed towards me, there was a
lot of verbal assault and a lot of physical
assault. And I didn't know what was going to cause
50
00:12:59,070 --> 00:13:07,470
it. I never, I couldn't, you know, I just
constantly in fear, like when's the next time he's
gonna get upset about something and start hitting
me or verbally assaulting?
51
00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:10,140
Stephanie: And he would also be telling you that
you are his best friend.
52
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:36,660
Brian: Yeah. Oh, yeah, we were definitely supposed
to be you know, that was the image that we were
giving off to everyone and then he would bring in
other friends into our group for temporarily and
then throw them away in a really horrible way. But
I wasn't allowed to bring any friends, I wasn't
allowed to have any other friends. And so besides
this, these kind of this daily fear of being
abused, there was also this, he did gymnastics,
and he wanted me to try to do the gymnastics too.
53
00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:59,970
And I knew I couldn't do it and fix on the bars or
like flipping office swings and stuff like that
from high up and I really didn't want to do it. I
was scared, I knew I was gonna get hurt because I
was constantly getting hurt. But it was either
that or make him upset and abused me. So I went
ahead and just tried to do the tricks and just
sure enough, would always get hurt. So it's just
like every day like what's your going to do today?
What is he going to make me do today, so it was
54
00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:25,950
kind of this slowly chipping away at my agency and
my identity, you know, because I also didn't feel
as though I could suggest anything to do like
let's play with toys or whatever. Like he didn't
want to do any of the things that I wanted to do
but I just tagged along, he'd be making fun of
people I'd be just like like the toady the classic
toady or something from from the movie. He had all
the power.
55
00:14:25,980 --> 00:14:33,180
Stephanie: So what would what did that feel like?
What did that look like when he's abusing or
attacking other people, other kids.
56
00:14:33,420 --> 00:14:58,620
Brian: Well, I mean, I have a couple of stories
that could illustrate that I guess. There was one
one kid in particular I don't know what his
because he didn't attack everyone. It was a
strange you know, I don't know how he chose to
attack certain kids and not others. But there was
just one kid in particular that lived on a street
that I was friends with. He was in our Cub Scout
pack. We carpooled to school. This guy G, I'll
call him G, he was in that carpool too. And every
57
00:14:58,620 --> 00:15:23,550
day this other kid we pick him up and get in the
car and he just say you stink you stink just like
this relentlessly, like saying how much he stank
and stuff for the drive to school. And you could
just tell this kid just didn't know how to react
to it. And it was just making them feel not good
about himself. But in this one particular time, we
were walking around the neighborhood, and this kid
comes over with this new big GI Joe vehicle, like
it's this kind of large thing. And he was so proud
58
00:15:23,550 --> 00:15:50,970
that he got this and he was all happy about it.
And he's like, Look what I got, like what I got.
And I don't know why he felt safe bringing it over
to me and and this, this guy G. Because what
happened was that G just grabbed it out of his
hand, just threw on the floor and just broke into
a million pieces. And then the guy just kind of
shied away and started to walk away. And this I
just felt so overwhelmingly bad, because I could
see him start to tear up and stuff. And I just
59
00:15:51,000 --> 00:16:04,800
went when G turned his back, I just gave him like
a really quiet like, I'm sorry, I'm like apology,
and then just followed G back to his house. That's
just one example of one particular kid that he
picked on.
60
00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:13,530
Stephanie: If you had, if you had other friends,
you were in a vulnerable position yourself,
because g would punish you. But also you had to
then watch G attack this right this as well.
61
00:16:13,570 --> 00:16:40,750
Brian: Right. So I mean, there was another one,
that's these two girls that we hung out with that,
I don't know, somehow we formed this club. And we
bring gifts to each other and things like that at
one point of the girls wrote him a letter and
mailed it to his house and it said, you know, I
have a big crush on you and stuff like that. And I
was over at G's house when he got this letter, and
he read it and he was just like laughing at it.
And he's like, this is so ridiculous. And he's
62
00:16:40,750 --> 00:17:09,250
like I have to write her a letter back. And so he
wrote this letter back that was like the most
horrible, insulting, like you're the ugliest girl
I've ever seen. I would never ever want to like go
out with you. totally pointless, like, Why? Why?
He just wanted to hurt her. He just really wanted
to hurt her because she said she liked him. And it
was just bizarre. And he went in hand delivered it
to her house. And I tagged along, you know, I
watched him write the letter. I watched him give
63
00:17:09,250 --> 00:17:15,730
it to her. And we walked away and I saw her the
next day, she's crying.
64
00:17:16,470 --> 00:17:34,230
Stephanie: So one thing we should mention is this
seems to be before there was such an awareness in
schools, for instance, about bullying, because
hearing you tell these stories, you wonder where
all the parents in this situation? Including where
were your parents?
65
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:42,510
Brian: Well, yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's
there's a call monitors or recess people and but
there's just a lot of kids,
66
00:17:42,600 --> 00:18:00,180
Stephanie: but you know, someone was in the car
when G was insulting your other friend. And yeah,
you know, your other friend had parents and he
came home with his toy broken. What did he say to
his parents?
67
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,450
Brian: Did they asked her why she was crying?
68
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:10,110
Stephanie: And yeah, I mean, were they ever any
incidents with your parents that you would have
anticipated that they would have responded
69
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:36,820
Brian: there was there was one in particular that
that stuck with me and kind of caused me to hold
on to some resentment because clearly, I did not
tell them what was going on. But I feel as though
they had plenty of opportunity to see. I feel like
he was on a little bit better behavior when he was
at my house. But he wasn't at my house very often.
I was usually at his house and, and his parents
just kind of were not around. And I his dad seems
strange. I was kind of scared of his dad too. So I
70
00:18:36,850 --> 00:19:07,150
don't really know what their dynamic was. He was
an only child. But so I there was this time we
went to his family's cabin. And it was just a
miserable time. Basically, he was kind of picking
on me and hitting me like a lot during that trip.
And we did dangerous things like that he wanted to
do tha,as always, he just wanted to do dangerous
things that I didn't want to do like like sit down
on this blanket and slide down the stairs and
there was like a wall at the end of the stairs. So
71
00:19:07,150 --> 00:19:15,040
we hit the wall. He was okay getting hurt, I
guess. But I wasn't and then we had stuffed
animals, that was what we played with the most and
72
00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:17,890
Stephanie: about how old were you at this point
that when we went to the cabin?
73
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:45,170
Brian: it was maybe three years into the race to
maybe third grade or seventh. Yeah. And so we had
these stuffed animals and he pretended like they
were alive, which I never that's another whole
story like that goes into. I could never tell if
he was being serious or not like if he actually
thought they were alive or he wanted me to pretend
like I believed they were alive or something. But
his we were both carrying our favorite stuffed
animal and he accidentally dropped his into the
74
00:19:45,170 --> 00:19:53,720
river and it floated floated away and we couldn't
get it. And he grabbed mine from me, which was an
Alvin doll from Alvin and chipmunks and he threw
it on the ground.
75
00:19:53,930 --> 00:19:55,160
Stephanie: This was your favorite stuffed animal.
76
00:19:55,160 --> 00:20:23,600
Brian: This is my favorite stuffed animal. Well,
somehow he got he had mine his hand he threw it
down I think when he was first trying to get his
and and then when we came back, he's like, Oh,
Alvin is dead. Listen, he's not breathing, he's
dead. We have to bury him. I don't want to bury
my favorite stuff down like, but you know I had
to. And so we did and I no longer had my Alvin.
And I went home and just when I got home to my
house, I was just so relieved and happy to be home
77
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:47,780
and not on that trip anymore. Because it was just
horrible. And I started crying. The second I saw
my parents, they had some friends over there
sitting in the backyard. And they said, Well,
what's what's wrong? I said, I have a headache,
which is a really weird kind of adult thing to
say, because I think my mom got headaches all the
time. So I said, I have a headache. And they said,
okay, cool. Why don't you go up and lay down, you
know? And that was, that was that was the only
78
00:20:47,780 --> 00:21:05,510
reaction not like, really a headache. And you
know, Why you crying, you know, and they didn't
follow me up to see if I was okay, or anything.
They just kept hanging out with their friends. And
then that was it. That was the last I heard of it.
They didn't ask me how the trip was or anything.
And so I just thought that seemed like a little
extreme to just kind of let that go.
79
00:21:05,660 --> 00:21:08,780
Stephanie: Well, it kind of probably also
reinforced your sense of powerlessness.
80
00:21:08,780 --> 00:21:18,320
Brian: Yeah. Right, that I didn't really have
anyone I could, you know, like, I already felt
unsafe telling anyone about it. But now I
especially when like, well, now I really don't
think I can tell anyone about this. So yeah, that
was just one other example
81
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:28,550
Stephanie: so how did you eventually get out of
this relationship? So it finally just ended.
82
00:21:28,550 --> 00:21:29,600
Because you felt stuck.
83
00:21:29,660 --> 00:21:54,650
Brian: I felt stuck. I definitely felt stuck. And
actually, I have to say, I did start to tell
people about it. I told two kids at school about
it. There was one friend I had in class, and I
told him about it. And he's like, Oh, I wish I
wish you can hang out with me and my friends and
stuff. But I think he's basically acknowledged and
understood that I was stuck. It was like he was
kind of just like, well, you can do you know. And
then this other kid who was super nice, kind of
84
00:21:54,650 --> 00:22:22,520
Outcast type kid, I told him about and he's like,
Well, let's go hide, let's go hide. And so we
would go out and this was fifth grade. And we'd go
out to the very corner of the field, this huge
field that, you know, people played soccer and
everything on and we'd hide and so basically, I
would, I would ditch G every lunch for about a
couple of weeks. It made me super, super nervous,
of course, but the fact that I had this kid that
was kind of supporting me and helping me and
85
00:22:22,940 --> 00:22:47,360
saying I'll be okay, okay. And and then I would
go, I would see G, on the way back to class, where
were you and I just I was looking for you. I don't
know, I couldn't find you. I went to the library.
You went there. And he would just sit, you know,
the next day, it'd be like, Okay, here's where I'm
going to be. And then I would ditch him again.
And, and I knew that wasn't going to work forever.
But then at some point, one day, he came and told
me that his family was moving away, that they were
86
00:22:47,360 --> 00:23:13,580
moving to another city far away that I would never
see him again. And that was probably the biggest
relief I've ever felt in my entire life. By far up
to that point. I think I had a really hard time
containing that. I think maybe I might have teared
up. But I was it was tears of joy. Maybe he saw
that as tears of like, oh, no, I'm losing my best
friend. Fine. He wrote me one time after that. I
don't think I responded. For whatever reason I
held on to that letter. And I just found it. A
87
00:23:13,580 --> 00:23:16,040
week ago when I was going through my keepsakes and
finally threw it away.
88
00:23:17,150 --> 00:23:22,910
Stephanie: You got out of the relationship, but
not by anyone helping you get out right?
89
00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:40,550
Brian: Not by using my own agency my own power.
Yeah, or having an adult intervene. It was luck.
Oh, just pure luck. Yeah, he just moved away. And
that was the end. Then I immediately went and
started hanging out with that kid said I wish your
friend wasn'tabusing you.
90
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:51,110
Stephanie: But from four to nine, say 10, those
very formative years, this friendship taught you
what it was like to be in a relationship?
91
00:23:51,770 --> 00:24:23,960
Brian: For the most part, yes, I should say that I
had a strong loving relationship with my brother
that whole time to actually my entire childhood.
And that was a relationship where I felt safe. And
I think in a way that shield me a little bit from,
from the G relationship in that, that just helped
me survive it overall. But definitely, overall,
that relationship with G was the defining
relationship of my childhood that kind of, because
it because of the lasting effects that it had on
92
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,710
me and the fact that it caused all of these
lingering behaviors.
93
00:24:28,430 --> 00:24:43,130
Stephanie: So this was a relationship in which you
felt constant threat, even threat for your life.
and you felt threat towards other people? And you
had to develop behaviors to survive that
relationship.
94
00:24:43,550 --> 00:25:03,620
Brian: And these were behaviors that did help me
survive. I mean, I survived and without
intervention from any adults or other people like
I really in not having any skills. I mean, I
hadn't learned anything I didn't know what
emotions were even how to deal with those?
95
00:25:05,310 --> 00:25:22,980
Stephanie: So this is, you know, we refer to it be
codependency behaviors being maladaptive. This is
what we're talking about that and think it's
important for people that have these behaviors to
not feel shame around them because they developed
in a situation in which they were appropriate.
96
00:25:23,940 --> 00:25:42,960
Brian: Right. It's not like people just one day
go, You know what, I think I just want to care for
other people more than I care for myself. It's it
comes from something some specific, either single
incident or, or something like this, you know,
this series of dramatic series of traumatic events
attached to one particular relationship.
97
00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:59,820
Stephanie: So let's just talk briefly about the
set of behaviors that became maladaptive as you
went through life, but were appropriate for the
situation that you found yourself in that together
form this web of codependency.
98
00:25:59,910 --> 00:26:23,220
Brian: Okay. Yeah, these are all the ones that I
think came about from from that experience. And
first of all, the feeling responsible for the
emotions and actions of this guy, which is really
a kind of a cornerstone of codependence right. I
mean, just basically managing him managing his
emotions in managing is his whole world didn't
matter. I didn't matter in this in this situation,
because that was expected.
99
00:26:23,310 --> 00:26:29,370
Stephanie: It was expected and it was violently
enforced if you were not attuned to these
emotions.
100
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:41,580
Brian: Right, then there was caretaking which is
kind of pretty much the same thing more or less
but but I mean, that's an important one because
that's that is also a cornerstone of codependency
is it's caretaking the person's emotional and
physical
101
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:48,000
Stephanie: right, because your best best chance of
feeling safe was to make him feel comfortable and
cared for.
102
00:26:48,030 --> 00:27:07,680
Brian: It's a way of avoiding avoiding abuse that
as long as he's happy and comfortable and feel
safe, then I by extension, I'm safe, even though I
never worked out that way. Well, it I survived.
So there we go. It worked, right. I struggled to
set boundaries, because it was on safe to happen.
103
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:19,770
Stephanie: He saw no boundary between the two of
you. Right? You were at his disposal.And if you
tried to set a boundary, like by sneaking awayat
lunch, that was very risky.
104
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:45,400
Brian: It was extremely risky. I don't I really
didn't have an end game for that plan. But you
know, I have to wonder how that would have turned
out if he didn't move awayyou know, I don't know
then as people pleasing that which is kind of in
the smae camp. You know, connected. But it is
slightly different still to it's like kind of
seeking validation and acceptance. And it's
exploded out right, because I in this leads into
the next one low self esteem and self worth,
105
00:27:45,400 --> 00:28:13,060
right. So I just had such low self esteem from
from having no control over my life and feeling as
though I wasn't doing anything I wanted and only
doing what someone else wanted. So this people
pleasing, is seeking validation, whatever, I can
get any sort of external source of someone saying,
Oh, you're a good person, you know, was just
important for my survival. And then also trouble
expressing my emotions, because I never really
developed how to express my emotions, because I
106
00:28:13,060 --> 00:28:36,220
had to keep them inside. It was unsafe to be
angry. It was unsafe to be sad, you know, it was
unsafe to feel empathy for other people. And I had
to so this is where I learned
compartmentalization, and then denying my
problems. So you know, this was an awful
friendship. Everyone knew it. There were there
were kids that pointed it out to me directly. And
the best I could do would just, you know, when
someone asked me directly, once, when after I was
107
00:28:36,220 --> 00:28:37,630
beat up on the on the field,
108
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,040
Stephanie: another child again?
109
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:48,880
Brian: Yeah, another child. Yep. Yeah. I don't
know why no adults saw me getting beat up. But she
asked, Why do you hang out with him? And my answer
was, I don't know. That was it.
110
00:28:50,290 --> 00:29:01,600
And then loyal to a fault. I have to be loyal to
this person, no matter what, it doesn't matter how
bad of a person this is, I need to continue to
survive. And that means doing whatever this person
wants to do.
111
00:29:02,140 --> 00:29:33,100
To repeat what we said early in this discussion,
we don't see codependency as a personality
trait.It is a cluster of learned habituated
behaviors, behaviors that can get you stuck in
unbalanced relationships, often with others who
are alsodisordered. Because it is learned
behavior. We think it is really important to
figure out where those behaviors were learned.
Essentially, what the origin story of the
behaviors is.
112
00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:49,180
Understanding that origin has been completely key
for me, getting to the root of where it came from.
And then that was a starting place for unlearning
those behaviors, and then putting something else
in place new behaviors, healthy behaviors.
113
00:29:50,020 --> 00:30:19,030
Stephanie: Your origin story involves the trauma
you experienced in your relationship with G, and
we suspect that a lot of people with codependent
behaviorsalso have origin stories that involve
trauma. So next episode, we're going to discuss
trauma in more depth. How does it form? How is it
different than other stressful, even violent
events? What is it like to live with unhealed
trauma?
114
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:30,990
Brian: And we hope you'll join us for that
discussion. And if you have any comments or
questions or want to contribute your own origin
story, you can find us on Facebook or Instagram by
searching codependent minds.