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Because when you're in a space, a headspace, where you don't really feel comfortable showing up and and talking about yourself, or you're not really excited to talk about yourself, then um you come across as guarded and you're not able to focus as much because you're like, oh, you know, like, oh, I hope they don't ask this question, or something like that.
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That's often a blocker for people in interviews, is they have one question that they really don't want to talk about.
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Hello and welcome to the 925 Wellness Podcast.
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Today, I have a super exciting topic that I've I've been wanting to talk about for a while on 9 to 5 wellness podcasts, and that is mastering workplace negotiations.
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And the reason I wanted to talk about this is because a lot of my clients and my patients who I work with, they have requested this.
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And here's why.
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You know what?
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Most of the people tell me that they have the perfect resume, they have perfect metrics, like they're completely flawless.
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And yet the moment they apply for a job or they're sitting down in their boss's office to go over their annual review, guess what?
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Their hands get sweaty, and all of a sudden their mind goes blank and they're like, we don't know what to say next.
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Like it's all it's almost like everything was perfect, they prepared for it, and then they don't know.
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So today that's exactly what we're gonna talk about because pressure and nerves are completely, you know, they can completely derail a great candidate during an interview or an annual review meeting if you're an employee already in the organization.
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So in this episode, I'm sitting down with a cognitive performance and career coach who does this for a living.
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And he's gonna help us with a few questions that you guys asked me, like on how to perform during high-stakes meeting at work, how we can transform like dread and anxiety, which even I feel.
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If I am sitting across from my um manager, I feel that too.
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Especially we feel those before those conversations.
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And how can we switch that energy into useful energy?
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You will learn the neuroscience behind what triggers brilliant people to fumble, like I just fumbled, uh fumble like uneasy questions during annual reviews and and job interviews.
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So if you're looking for actionable science fact strategies to perform under pressure at work, this podcast episode is for you.
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And without further ado, I want to introduce my guest today, Dave Bolovsky, is, and I think I butchered his last name, is a cognitive performance coach with a master's in neuroscience and education from Columbia University.
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He helps professionals decide whether to stay or leave their job and to succeed in high-pressure moments like interviews, negotiations, and presentations.
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You can find him on LinkedIn or at effortwise.com.
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And we are gonna his information is in the show notes.
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Without further ado, Dave, welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you.
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It's good to be here.
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And uh obviously this is my favorite topic to uh talk about.
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So I'm glad we can do it today.
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Awesome.
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I'm super excited about our conversation because I host this podcast because I like to learn about these topics too.
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Because, yes, I'm as much as I would like to say that my clients are the ones who are experiencing that, but I experience the same dread, the same anxiety when I'm sitting across um, you know, a new client or an organization where I'm gonna be a consultant.
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So I want to explore negotiations at work and in business with you.
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What is the biggest mistake people make before the meeting even starts?
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So, yeah, I mean, it's we can talk about like specific different types of situations, negotiations, interviews, presentations, or stuff like that.
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But I think when we talk about nerves, it kind of cuts through all of them.
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So it's a good lens.
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And two things I think, you know, there's two points of intervention to kind of improve like your performance.
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One is being less attached to the outcome of the event, right?
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Which means like you don't want it so bad.
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And that's really that's the hard part because if it's if it's something you want, you know, it's hard not to want it.
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Um, but the more obviously the more work you do beforehand, like uh looking for other options for things and um kind of, I mean, partly reminding yourself of like why uh you are worthy, you know, a lot of imposter syndrome, like overcoming that stuff.
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Again, that's takes time to do that stuff, but that's the work beforehand, so that when you get there, you're like a little less uh just flustered about like, oh, you know, and anxious, do I get it?
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Do I not?
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And oh, if I don't get it, then everything's bad.
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Like that's the work behind the scenes.
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Um, and it does take time.
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But then there's the work like right before the moment, which you can also do, um, which involves things like uh mindfulness and basically just understanding your signature of nerves and anxiety and anticipation and befriending it and notice like accepting that it's gonna happen no matter what for the rest of your life, whenever you go into a high-stakes moment.
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Because even if you're like an expert at something, you are going to have times where you're reaching for a higher level of something, and that's going to feel intense and make you anxious, and you're gonna get the same feeling of nerves that you've always gotten.
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Yeah, so true.
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I just want to underscore what you said that it takes practice.
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It takes practice to detach yourself from the outcome, right?
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Because as you said, we all the reason we are feeling anxious is because we want it so bad.
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But how do you find that balance?
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And you put it just so beautifully that, you know, preparation is going to be a big aspect, a big part of it.
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Just building up on that, interviews often feel like a stressful interrogation rather than like a balanced two-way conversation, right?
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Uh what specific shift in mindset helps candidates treat the meeting as a mutual like evaluation of fit?
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Yeah, because ideally you want to walk into it and think like I am evaluating them as well as they're evaluating me.
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And um, and really I would say also an ideal place to be is you're happy to talk about yourself.
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Like that's that's the key, right?
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For networking and for uh interviews.
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Because when you're in a space, a headspace where you don't really feel comfortable showing up and and talking about yourself, or you're not really excited to talk about yourself, then um you come across as guarded and you're not able to focus as much because you're like, oh, you know, like, oh, I hope they don't ask this question or something like that.
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That's often a blocker for people in interviews, is they have one question that they really don't want to talk about.
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And a lot of work that I do with people for interviews is like, let's talk about that, right?
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Let's get to that question so that you can have a story that you feel comfortable telling.
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And that, because usually when you get into the details of the truth, you can find some way of explaining it that makes sense.
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Because, like, you know, most of our decisions in life, they make sense in context, but we're afraid of, you know, oh, I don't know how to explain it, or they're not gonna see it the way I saw it, or something like that.
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So when you um clear that up inside you, and you're just like, oh yeah, if they do ask this, I could answer it, then you show up differently altogether because you don't have that one saying that you're like trying to protect and hide.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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That's a great tip because honestly, I never placed it that way.
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Like that everything makes sense given the context, given what context it took place in.
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So if you could have that story ready in which the context is part of the approach you're taking, or or whatever you have to present to the organization or to your boss about, then it's like, oh, it completely makes sense.
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Like, you know, why would I guard it?
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Just like you said.
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And I think it it is a great way to balance the power dynamic in the room too, because often if you're going for an annual review and or a job interview, guess what?
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We're always thinking, well, they have more power.
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So I have to now present in a way that, you know, that I really want this.
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I want that job, or I want that promotion, or I want that increase in my pay.
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So are there any other practical techniques to just subtly balance the power dynamic?
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, I mean, for both of these examples, it's kind of similar.
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And for negotiations in general, again, this goes back to the behind the scenes work, which is finding other options.
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It takes time, it's hard, it's stressful, but it is the only real way to make sure that when you show up, you don't have that too much of like wanting it, right?
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And then what happens is that it is that power dynamic like is radically different where you're if you don't have any other options or you don't have information about like where you stand and you don't feel good about where you stand in general, then you're always going to show up with more kind of neediness, urgency, and things like that.
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And again, that's not that's not easy, right?
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That's that is the hard work.
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That is the substance of a job search or performance review, like promotion.
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That's the work is is making sure that you are looking for other options.
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And that being said, if you don't feel like you have other options, then you know, the the realistic assessment of where you are and and how you stand in in the state of things with this negotiation or interview, it's important to be able to be realistic about that and not like, you know, if you try to come across as like, oh, I'm evaluating you as well, but the reality in your brain subconsciously is like, uh-oh, I hope I get this.
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It's gonna come across as as arrogant and like overstated, overly uh sort of like like performative, you know.
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Absolutely.
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So yeah, so the the substance of the work is making sure that you're you're hustling to like get information, get other options.
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Yeah.
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Um and and honestly, though, some you know, like every every negotiation interview, whatever, is the start of a relationship or the continuing of a relationship.
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And so in many ways, it's always a test of the other person.
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Do I want to be continue a relationship with this person?
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So when you negotiate, it it's also a like a test.
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Do you, you know, where are you gonna get red flags?
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Are you going to you don't because you don't want to enter a situation where you start a job, for example, or you continue a job with a boss that that's just gonna make your life horrible.
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Like it's better to do the hustling and get the other options than to like let that happen.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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And I wanna just uh expand on a couple of things you just said that uh you should always be hustling and go in with a couple of options, like in your hand, right?
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I understand it's not always possible, but you know, try to make that happen if you can.
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The other thing that you said, which is wonderful because I've come across so many people who took the job because their situation warranted that, you know, they should take the job, but then they just stayed there for three months and then they're like, uh, this is not a good fit.
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And I'm not saying, you know, that don't try and you know, trying and experimenting is part of it.
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However, to increase your chances of ending up in an organization where you're a good fit, all of these things do come into play.
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Like, did you do the work beforehand, right?
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Did you have multiple options?
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Did you try to understand beforehand if this relationship is the relationship that you want to continue with this team, with this organization?
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So all good stuff, really.
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I and I don't think so that when we are, especially if we are job hunting, there is a certain aspect of desperation there, uh which kind of takes over.
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But if we could give ourselves like a certain time period, like three to six months for job hunting, and then put all these practical tips that you shared, Dave, into practice, I think we would end up in an organization where we would like to stay long term.
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Yeah.
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And actually, if I if I can continue with that, because I think that's a really important point.
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And this is the people who really need the help the most are those who feel very desperate.
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And that is one of those stories that I have worked with people a lot on, which is why am I looking for so long?
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Like I hope they don't ask me why I haven't had a job for a year, right?
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And the the reality is, I have never worked with someone who is not doing something interesting or important without the job, right?
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They're searching, but they're doing something.
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And so, like, if you find that story that's authentic to you and you enjoy talking about, um, it really changes everything because you you get these blinders in the desperation where you're like, oh, I have nothing.
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And it's really, I mean, I've never found it to be true, where someone is just doing nothing, right?
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They're like, if you don't have a job, you have time on your hands.
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So you're probably doing something, you're learning something, you are whatever, networking in different ways.
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And so that's one thing, which is get clear on your story.
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But the other thing is the hustle itself.
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Uh, one of the most important things I that I have found personally in working with people is make the hustle easy.
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You have to, the ease of it is the only goal because the job search is so uncertain that it stops when you get lucky.
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And so you just have to keep going and survive the process long enough to get lucky.
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Okay, I want to expand on that a little further.
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You said it stops when you get get lucky.
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What do you mean by that?
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I mean it's so uncertain.
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Like the factors, you know, you you get an interview, you're like, oh wow, I didn't think I would get this, or whatever, and you get offers.
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It's there, there's the factors that are external to you that you don't control are so many that you can only do so much, right?
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You can craft your stories well, you can apply, and you can talk to people.
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And that's pretty much all you can do.
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And yes, if you if you do a lot of that, like it's a numbers game.
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So what happens is eventually you get lucky, you hit the right moment at the right company or whatever, and you just have no idea.
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So the so a lot of people like don't understand this.
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And it's a very to me, it's very clear and simple, and I've but I like have to explain it uh to everybody kind of a few times, is that ease of the process, the ability to continue is the only thing that matters.
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Because if you if you focus on too much quality and you like, like, all right, let's just give an example.
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Let's say you spend um three hours on one application, how likely are you to like when are you gonna be ready to apply again?
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If you spend three hours, right, you're gonna be drained.
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You're gonna be like, okay, this sucks.
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I can't do this for six months.
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Are you kidding?
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Yeah.
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But what if you spent you know, 10 minutes on an application and three hours is like 180 minutes?
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So that's 18 applications, and you did one of those a day, and you just like just focus on that.
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What happens is each application, um, if you spend 10 minutes on it, meaning you're looking at it, you're taking in information, you're tweaking it a little bit, you're gonna, the quality is going to go up incrementally.
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Yeah.
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And you're not gonna get drained to the point where you're like, I give up, I can't keep doing this.
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Because that's that's the real problem is people just they sabotage by like forcing themselves to spend so much time on one application and then just being like, you know, God, I hope this works, because otherwise I can't do anymore.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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No, I agree.
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I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said.
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And thanks for, you know, just expanding that because it's it's a difficult process to grasp.
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A lot of times, as you just said, that we just are spending so much time and energy into one thing, then we are like, okay, how can it becomes harder to multiply that, right?
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So, and I think for anything which is hard or the outcome is worth it, but the process is hard.
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The just like you said, the whole goal should be to make it easier.
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So, you know, how can you have that resume ready, which you can just customize, you know, based on let's say that you have three ideal job, you know, descriptions in your head, and maybe you have done the work to put them out on a Google Doc, then how do you just switch the resume from one to the other, or just have that um customized resume ready to go so you don't have to spend that much time, right?
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It all depends upon how many tries.
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It's like a trial and error process, how many times are you trying?
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So that's a great way to put it.
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I love it.
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:11.920
So I have a few questions that a lot of like my clients have asked, corporate clients have asked, and I'm gonna ask you those next.
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And they are related to salary negotiation.
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So one of the questions is from Phil, and Phil asked me, when is the best time to bring up salary in an interview?
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So for we're talking about like for a new job, right?
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Yes, yeah.
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So um my philosophy uh, and whenever I do it and and work with people on it, is basically to take it slow and do it later.
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Because like often also it just depends.
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The company, sometimes the company will just say, This is the salary, are you okay with that in the first interview, right?
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And if that happens, it's hard to negotiate after that.
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You kind of just have to decide.
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But if a company, you know, if and what that usually means, if they're really clear, like this is the salary, take it or leave it, is that they they feel like they're in a very strong position where they have a lot of applicants for for this job or a lot of the same role, similar roles.
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And yeah, and so in that case, you just assess.
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But if they don't say anything in the beginning, then you don't say anything in the beginning.
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That's my general philosophy because your leverage is them wanting you.
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It just comes across as it doesn't come across great, and it just you don't have any power or like, or leverage, leverage meaning the ability to get them to want something in the very beginning, right?
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But after you've done a few interviews, maybe you've met your manager, maybe you've met their manager or the CEO or whatever, you have more leverage because you've started to create relationships.
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And so yeah, and you're creating trust, you're building trust, I mean.
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Yeah, you're building trust.
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Exactly.
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So if you feel like you are doing a good job in that and you feel that the the pay is like a little low for what I have made or whatever, it's good to find a reason if you can.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:16.160
I actually posted on LinkedIn about this today.
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Nice.
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Basically that the the three steps of communication that I recommend, especially just if you're kind of don't feel super strong, like you're afraid of getting the job rescinded, the the offer rescinded, is just one is like affirm that yes, I really like this company.
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I like, I think I would do really good at this job, and I'm excited to do this job well.
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Two is at the same time, I do think it's worth a little bit more.
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You know, it's worth X more to do this job.
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Um, based on, and again, you could come up with like, I used to get paid this much for this role, or I've seen in my research other roles, or you don't even need a reason.
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You can just say, I would like X more, you know?
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:00.880
And you don't really have to give a reason.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:05.759
And they will like it, that can even be stronger sometimes because they can't refute it.
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:18.720
But then, and then you end with basically like, but I understand that there are limitations and you let me know how much you can do more, and let's find something that aligns with both of us.
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.480
Absolutely.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:21.519
Absolutely.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:40.880
And sometimes it's also in the multiple interviews or series of interviews, as you mentioned, you can each and every time you're sitting across from the team or the managers or the boss or the CEO, you can be building up on what you have to offer.
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:42.960
What are you bringing to the table?
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.400
Because at the end of the day, that's gonna decide your salary, right?
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:53.279
What results are you gonna be able to bring into this organization with the work that you're gonna perform?
00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:02.079
So every time you go, there should be something that you can add to the to what you're offering.
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.319
I think that always helps.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:14.640
I just wanna underscore you what you said, that if you could just delay the process or the bringing the number up.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:23.200
And I and I've seen a lot of people actually do it very early on where they are they are feeling the need to know what the number is gonna be.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:29.519
So then they they bring it up themselves, where where it should be the other way around, as you just explained to us.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:30.400
So great.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.559
Thanks for explaining that.
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:33.200
Okay.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.839
The next question is from Jeff, and it's about promotion strategies.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:45.200
Jeff said that requesting a promotion can easily trigger intense imposter syndrome, right?
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.319
When he feels like he needs to be at its sharpest.
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:56.000
Do you have any tips that you suggest to people in that situation who are dreading the conversation with their boss?
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:09.519
There's a lot of things you can do in terms of like building relationships and becoming that person who's like your boss really values.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:24.079
And and that kind of all comes down to just seeing like what is their what's their stress coming from, and how can I use my skills to like take some of their stress away.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:32.319
That's generally, even though it seems obvious maybe to say, most people don't think that way.
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:35.359
They think in terms of doing their job well.
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:44.640
And also, by the way, most people are so focused on how other people are not letting them do their job well, like, oh, this person's getting my way, this person's getting my way, right?
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.200
So a lot of people spend so much time there.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:56.000
And, you know, yeah, I mean, if you're trying to get promoted, there's always an aspect of just like having to go above and beyond a little bit.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:58.400
And I mean, usually there is.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:00.480
So there's there's that.
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:05.920
But then, and the more you can do that, the less imposter syndrome you'll generally feel.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:24.640
But then on the other hand, there's like I would again recommend just always be casually looking for other jobs because you that's where you get a little bit of that feeling, like, oh, if this doesn't work out, I'll be okay.
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.400
And, you know, you might be applying or you might not be.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:38.240
I would apply just for like go through the process so that when you if you do get laid off or you do decide to quit, you're not like out of practice completely.
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:46.000
And so I I don't I go on job interview, I apply for jobs and go on interviews just myself to test things.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:48.480
And also to keep that's a great way to do it.
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.000
Yeah, it's like uh SAT tutors, they take the SAT themselves, right?
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.920
Like you you just you you keep up with it.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:58.720
And it's just especially if you're in a good place, like that's the best time to do it.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.319
And then yeah, you have less imposter syndrome if you know you have other options.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:05.200
So, you know, those two things are good.
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.599
Yeah, and and yeah, so thinking about your belief.
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:26.000
No, I think these two, if we just thought uh kept these two practical tips front and center before beforehand in most organizations and on most teams, people know when their a promotion interview or annual review is gonna come up.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.759
You know, they they know ahead of time.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:43.759
So that being said, if you can start doing that work three months ahead, figuring things out, like how you can best help your boss and the organization to bring results and then have some options in the back, you'll be fine.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:54.000
I want to double-click on the first one though, because as you mentioned, a lot of us, we including me sometimes, we are not thinking in those terms, right?
00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:11.519
And I was listening to this podcast, and this professor, Emory University professor was on, and she's like, I've been teaching MBA graduate students for years, and every year she picks like teaching assistants from her cohorts.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:18.880
And she said that I always have more applications than the positions for TAs.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:25.440
And she said that this one application stood out over her tenure 10 years at Emory.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:37.279
And she's like, this applicant, she wrote to me that I understand that as a teaching assistant, my job is gonna be to help you grade papers.
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:45.519
And I also understand that you are teaching four courses this semester, which means you have 600 students under you.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:53.680
So I would love to help you grade their papers and help with some extra work.
00:28:54.480 --> 00:29:10.880
And I'm I also know that you are part of this ABC research, which I would love to get just, you know, introduced to if you feel like once I've helped you grading those papers.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:16.400
And she's like, all the other applicants they get it the other way around.
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:23.200
They're like, oh, so professor, how can we actually get into your research program?
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:39.519
And she was like, this applicant got down to the fact that uh she understands how busy I am and how she's gonna be able to help me and you know help me be more productive in my work.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:50.079
And then her second ask was okay, will I be able to get some time doing the research with you as well?
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:52.480
Right?
00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:06.480
So I I believe exactly what you were saying, that a lot of times we're just thinking, you know, it's so hard to get the work accomplished, which we have on our to-do list.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:13.359
How can we even think about helping our boss or helping the department get ahead?
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:24.720
But I think that's where exactly that roadblock is or obstacle exists, where we have to reframe, reframe that question that, oh, start thinking of ways to make things smoother.
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:31.759
And not only would they make them smoother and more productive for you, but for your whole team too.
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.920
I think it that's how it works.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:48.240
So how can team members and employees best quantify their workplace value in a yearly review meeting, which we kind of like just touched upon?
00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:00.559
And the reason I bring this up again is because a lot of people, especially women, female clients, they're like, uh, that's so like cringe.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:09.119
I can't do it because I will sound so self-centered and boastful, and I don't boost about myself.
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:12.559
So what do you have to say about that?
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:13.519
Mm-hmm.
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:15.200
Yeah, there's a lot here.
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:22.720
First of all, I will just say that most of most of my clients are female, most of my clients are women, and yeah, and I don't know why.
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.079
I think it's just my personality, I guess, but there is a difference, you know.
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:28.960
You you kind of do have to approach it differently as a woman.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:37.200
But in terms of like quantifying stuff, the quick answer for like how you can present it is it goes both ways.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:49.839
You quantify stuff so that you can um show that you're performing well, but you also quantify stuff so that the company knows whether you're performing well.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:32:00.480
And so if you can frame it that way, you can say, you know, uh and by the way, I would recommend telling someone beforehand that you are doing this.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:08.160
It makes more sense like to do that, and then later be like, by the way, you know I quantify stuff about my work, right?
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:09.599
Here's what I have, right?
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:19.200
Instead of at the last like minute, which a lot of people, that's why it's cringy, is if you're like, hey, by the way, I have these like stats that I don't even you don't know about them.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.440
I don't even know if you care about them or whatever.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:32.559
But that's so that's a good way to approach it, is is to be like, look, I would like to find ways to kind of quantify my work so that we are clear on like whether I'm doing well or not.
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:51.279
You know, and that by the way, just that alone shows a ton of courage and confidence, which if you don't have it, it's hard to to do that, but you know, do that work a little bit first, get clear on your strengths, get clear on your story and stuff like that, and then be like, okay, hey boss, like I'm gonna start quantifying certain things.
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:53.440
Here's what I think makes sense for my like performance.
00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:54.319
What do you think?
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.680
You know, so start beforehand and then later you have that.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:58.559
Yeah.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.640
But yeah, a lot of places these days will have their KPIs, right?
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.440
So it's kind of already baked into it for you.
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:12.000
But yeah, like, you know, often startups kind of don't as much, and and even corporate places, like they might not.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:13.759
So yeah.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.279
Yeah, no, that's great.
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:16.319
That's awesome.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:24.160
That if you can just put it out there, what you're about to say, and like set a little bit of an expectation, then people are expecting it.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:32.799
Like, you know, then then it doesn't sound like you were self-centered, but yeah, numbers matter, like data matters.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.480
So I think everybody understands that in every organization.
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:37.359
So just say that.
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:42.720
Oh, I'd like to quantify, just like you said, or as you know, I I like to quantify.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:51.279
So this is what I've done in the last two quarters, and I just wanted to make sure that I present that in our meeting today.
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:55.519
And they're gonna be like, wow, great! Like this is awesome, right?
00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:03.279
We didn't even have to ask for it, or we didn't have to go through and look for those results ourselves and the on the back end.
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:05.200
Like she she she was ready.
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:09.840
Um, and there's nothing like it's not as cringy as we think, actually.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:12.239
People want that from you.
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.880
So that's that's great.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:18.239
Okay, this question is from Rachel.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:26.000
What is your go-to strategy for recovering if a high-stakes answer goes like completely sideways?
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:32.000
Because she she has been passed over for promotion like three times.
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:37.119
And she's like, every time I sit across, I think I just end up saying something wrong.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:45.360
She's still in the organization because she believes that they're a good fit, but the annual reviews are not going well.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:46.480
Hmm.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.599
Yeah, I I don't think the problem is the moment itself.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:35:02.800
I think if you're really uh in my experience, digging into these kinds of situations, you it's not like you said the wrong thing in that moment.
00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:07.599
It's that the framing of your role.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.880
Yeah, the framing of your role and like within the organization is not right.
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:29.840
And you need to look at that a little bit more and do one-on-one conversations with a few different people to build that story, make sure that you're clear on like where do you sit really and why, not just like why am I not getting promoted, but why am I helpful?
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:30.480
You know?
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:39.519
And and that could be one way to ask at the end, like, you know, if it's not, it's like you can like establish why uh why are you still there, right?
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.679
Like, what do they really value in you?
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:50.000
And again, I would just go back if you've been passed over three times, I wouldn't expect anything different than the fourth time.
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.519
So I would start looking elsewhere, you know.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:59.360
I I don't think there, I think also at three times, you're probably feeling like trust has been broken in you.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.320
And so, like, it's hard to come back from that too.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.000
Your work is not gonna be as good for them.
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.280
You're not gonna like really care as much, you're not gonna trust them.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:12.000
I would just, you know, uh Yeah, start looking outside.
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:13.440
That's what I said to her.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:21.599
And I think I I if you don't mind, we can just double-click a little more on this situation because I think it happens to a lot of people.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:26.639
And I've heard this over and over again, and I want your take on this.
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:35.920
The biggest obstacle for her is her annual review is with the VP of the organization.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:45.440
Her she is directly reporting to a manager, and she's like, you know, her day-to-day or whatever, like quarterly basis review is with the manager.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.960
I'm like, maybe you need to communicate more often with the VP.
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:54.159
If if that's what's happening, you know, for your annual review, you're sitting across from a different person.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.920
And she's like, but I feel like my manager should be advocating for me.
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.960
And I'm yeah, I'm like, I don't know about that.
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:14.800
Maybe you have to find a way, like, you know, why why that communication isn't happening, and and maybe find a way to communicate more often with the VP.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.440
What do you think about that?
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:18.559
Mm-hmm.
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:19.599
Yeah, both.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:26.559
I think, you know, find ways to yeah, directly show your wins to the VP.
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:33.599
And again, find out, yeah, find out why they what stresses them out and how you can contribute to that in a way that they see more.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.840
And also have a conversation with the manager.
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.159
What is your view of me and like in the team?
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:46.000
And what do you think the VP thinks about our team?
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:59.599
And you know, just kind of getting a whole lay of the land, like something is going on that's that's unclear to this person, and you you have to be willing to like find out what it is if you want to stay.
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:11.280
And everyone, I think this is the actually goes back to like uh every problem as an adult is there's always a layer of I shouldn't have to do this.
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:21.119
And if you get really caught in that, then you you don't get what you want because you don't have the the energy to go after it.
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:26.400
Whereas people call it like ownership or something, but it's like it's like, oh, things I shouldn't have to do this.
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:27.519
My manager should be doing this.
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:29.440
It's like, yeah, yes, they should.
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.199
Like a great manager does that.
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:37.760
Your manager is not great, so you are now the one who has to do the thing.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:38.400
Yeah.
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:44.239
As the scene, coaching, like you have to remove the word should out of your vocabulary, right?
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:54.400
That like that's what the basis of coaching is like completely get rid of the word because it's always gonna come back and haunt you in different ways.
00:38:54.719 --> 00:39:10.639
Because, yes, to the to your point, when we are saying should in any situation or for anything or any person, we're kind of giving control to that person, control to that situation and removing ownership, right?
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:17.440
So as much ownership as you take in that situation, the better it's gonna be for you and you will understand it better.
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:27.840
Once you understand it better, then you know exactly what you need to do, like the steps you need to take to get to that outcome that you want, right?
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:36.719
If you're overly reliant on this other person or another team to get that accomplished, guess what?
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:41.599
I mean, you have to know what is going on and take ownership of it.
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.639
So I that's what how I see it.
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:47.039
If you would like to add to it, go for it.
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:47.519
Yeah.
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:56.000
Well, I think your point was really subtle and really important, which is that every thing is about like learning.
00:39:56.159 --> 00:40:03.599
Like every step you take, every application you send out in the job search, you learn a little bit, you you change a little bit.
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:11.599
And every conversation you have at a job that's like around this topic where you're trying to figure out what's going on, how do I move up?
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:13.039
You get that information.
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:21.840
And the the cool thing about that is that everything you learn is not just applicable to your current situation, but for the future, right?
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:26.400
So you may be in another job later where similar situation.
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:32.960
And if you've gone through this process, you'll be able to prevent what being passed over three times.
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:45.440
And the way I like to say it is every big challenge prepares you for even bigger challenges in the future and makes smaller challenges in the future even smaller.
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:47.039
Absolutely.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:48.159
Absolutely.
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:53.519
Oh, those are such great words to actually kind of wrap it up.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:54.960
This was great.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:41:04.000
Thanks for sharing all the great tips on how to approach job interviews and workplace negotiations.
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:06.639
Any parting words for our listeners?
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:18.159
I guess just to summarize, I would say like when you are afraid of talking about some part of yourself, dig into that.
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:24.320
You know, find the story, find the story that you are enjoy telling and practice that.
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:30.480
And then you will open up more, talk to more people, and it's always talking to more people that gets better things, right?
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:32.559
Inside a company, outside a company.
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:34.239
And it has to feel authentic.
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.519
And feeling fake is one of the it's just so hard.
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:38.400
It doesn't help.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:39.440
It doesn't help you.
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:40.000
Yeah.
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:48.880
And then doing your work to get other options and stuff so that you, when the big moment comes, you're a little bit more calm because you're not, it's not all or nothing.
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:50.559
Absolutely.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:51.519
Absolutely.
00:41:51.840 --> 00:42:13.039
Figure out how you can present yourself as an authentic person, as an authentic human, and then at the same time continue the hustle, continue the work, really double down on the work because the more, the more shots you take, the more chances you have to score a slam dunk.
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:14.159
So that's great.
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:15.440
That's a great takeaway.
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:21.039
Uh, Dave, where can our listeners and viewers find you and learn more about your work?
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:21.679
Yeah.
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:23.519
So I mean, I'm I'm on LinkedIn.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:27.519
I do have a small but growing YouTube and Instagram.
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:29.119
Uh, they're effortwise.
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.880
It's all effortwise now and effortwise.com.
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:33.760
Yeah.
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:34.960
Amazing.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:46.159
So I'm gonna put the link to your website, effortwise.com and your social media and your LinkedIn account, so that everybody can learn more about your work.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:47.760
Thank you for joining us.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:57.119
And please send this interview to someone who you know is looking for a job and or their annual review is coming up.
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:11.039
Just send this interview to someone because I think Dave gave us so many helpful practical tips, which we don't think of ourselves because we're just so in the thick of it.
00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:17.039
We're like just so focused on the application process andor the work.
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:21.519
If you're within the organization, you're like, oh no, this is the last quarter.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:23.679
I have to show certain KPIs.
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:26.159
Like, I'm so down into it.
00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:29.119
I can't think of the steps I need to take for my review.
00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:37.760
Just listening to this 40-minute conversation is gonna change the outcome of that interview for them.
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:40.719
So please, please share it with someone.
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:48.079
Maybe it's you, maybe it's somebody in your on your team, maybe it's your sister, you know, your brothers, siblings, cousins.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:51.119
Please share it and send it out to them.
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.320
Dave, once again, thank you so much for joining us.
00:43:54.559 --> 00:44:02.079
And to our viewers and listeners, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon and listening to us in a podcast format.
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:03.440
Bye for now.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:04.320
Thank you.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:24.480
Because when you're in a space, a headspace, where you don't really feel comfortable showing up and and talking about yourself, or you're not really excited to talk about yourself, then um you come across as guarded and you're not able to focus as much because you're like, oh, you know, like, oh, I hope they don't ask this question, or something like that.
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:30.719
That's often a blocker for people in interviews, is they have one question that they really don't want to talk about.
00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:36.640
Hello and welcome to the 925 Wellness Podcast.
00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:50.560
Today, I have a super exciting topic that I've I've been wanting to talk about for a while on 9 to 5 wellness podcasts, and that is mastering workplace negotiations.
00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:59.920
And the reason I wanted to talk about this is because a lot of my clients and my patients who I work with, they have requested this.
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And here's why.
00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:02.719
You know what?
00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:12.799
Most of the people tell me that they have the perfect resume, they have perfect metrics, like they're completely flawless.
00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:26.560
And yet the moment they apply for a job or they're sitting down in their boss's office to go over their annual review, guess what?
00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:36.159
Their hands get sweaty, and all of a sudden their mind goes blank and they're like, we don't know what to say next.
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:44.719
Like it's all it's almost like everything was perfect, they prepared for it, and then they don't know.
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So today that's exactly what we're gonna talk about because pressure and nerves are completely, you know, they can completely derail a great candidate during an interview or an annual review meeting if you're an employee already in the organization.
00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:13.759
So in this episode, I'm sitting down with a cognitive performance and career coach who does this for a living.
00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:28.400
And he's gonna help us with a few questions that you guys asked me, like on how to perform during high-stakes meeting at work, how we can transform like dread and anxiety, which even I feel.
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If I am sitting across from my um manager, I feel that too.
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Especially we feel those before those conversations.
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And how can we switch that energy into useful energy?
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:59.120
You will learn the neuroscience behind what triggers brilliant people to fumble, like I just fumbled, uh fumble like uneasy questions during annual reviews and and job interviews.
00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:09.039
So if you're looking for actionable science fact strategies to perform under pressure at work, this podcast episode is for you.
00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:27.520
And without further ado, I want to introduce my guest today, Dave Bolovsky, is, and I think I butchered his last name, is a cognitive performance coach with a master's in neuroscience and education from Columbia University.
00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:39.599
He helps professionals decide whether to stay or leave their job and to succeed in high-pressure moments like interviews, negotiations, and presentations.
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You can find him on LinkedIn or at effortwise.com.
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And we are gonna his information is in the show notes.
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Without further ado, Dave, welcome to the podcast.
00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:53.520
Thank you.
00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:54.960
It's good to be here.
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And uh obviously this is my favorite topic to uh talk about.
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So I'm glad we can do it today.
00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:01.840
Awesome.
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:08.479
I'm super excited about our conversation because I host this podcast because I like to learn about these topics too.
00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:27.120
Because, yes, I'm as much as I would like to say that my clients are the ones who are experiencing that, but I experience the same dread, the same anxiety when I'm sitting across um, you know, a new client or an organization where I'm gonna be a consultant.
00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:35.199
So I want to explore negotiations at work and in business with you.
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What is the biggest mistake people make before the meeting even starts?
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So, yeah, I mean, it's we can talk about like specific different types of situations, negotiations, interviews, presentations, or stuff like that.
00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:55.680
But I think when we talk about nerves, it kind of cuts through all of them.
00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:57.519
So it's a good lens.
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:05.199
And two things I think, you know, there's two points of intervention to kind of improve like your performance.
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:10.879
One is being less attached to the outcome of the event, right?
00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.759
Which means like you don't want it so bad.
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:19.759
And that's really that's the hard part because if it's if it's something you want, you know, it's hard not to want it.
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Um, but the more obviously the more work you do beforehand, like uh looking for other options for things and um kind of, I mean, partly reminding yourself of like why uh you are worthy, you know, a lot of imposter syndrome, like overcoming that stuff.
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Again, that's takes time to do that stuff, but that's the work beforehand, so that when you get there, you're like a little less uh just flustered about like, oh, you know, and anxious, do I get it?
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Do I not?
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And oh, if I don't get it, then everything's bad.
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Like that's the work behind the scenes.
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Um, and it does take time.
00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:21.839
But then there's the work like right before the moment, which you can also do, um, which involves things like uh mindfulness and basically just understanding your signature of nerves and anxiety and anticipation and befriending it and notice like accepting that it's gonna happen no matter what for the rest of your life, whenever you go into a high-stakes moment.
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Because even if you're like an expert at something, you are going to have times where you're reaching for a higher level of something, and that's going to feel intense and make you anxious, and you're gonna get the same feeling of nerves that you've always gotten.
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Yeah, so true.
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I just want to underscore what you said that it takes practice.
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It takes practice to detach yourself from the outcome, right?
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Because as you said, we all the reason we are feeling anxious is because we want it so bad.
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But how do you find that balance?
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And you put it just so beautifully that, you know, preparation is going to be a big aspect, a big part of it.
00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:18.160
Just building up on that, interviews often feel like a stressful interrogation rather than like a balanced two-way conversation, right?
00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:28.639
Uh what specific shift in mindset helps candidates treat the meeting as a mutual like evaluation of fit?
00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:38.079
Yeah, because ideally you want to walk into it and think like I am evaluating them as well as they're evaluating me.
00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:45.600
And um, and really I would say also an ideal place to be is you're happy to talk about yourself.
00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:48.160
Like that's that's the key, right?
00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:51.120
For networking and for uh interviews.
00:07:51.360 --> 00:08:15.680
Because when you're in a space, a headspace where you don't really feel comfortable showing up and and talking about yourself, or you're not really excited to talk about yourself, then um you come across as guarded and you're not able to focus as much because you're like, oh, you know, like, oh, I hope they don't ask this question or something like that.
00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:21.920
That's often a blocker for people in interviews, is they have one question that they really don't want to talk about.
00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:26.879
And a lot of work that I do with people for interviews is like, let's talk about that, right?
00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:33.360
Let's get to that question so that you can have a story that you feel comfortable telling.
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:40.799
And that, because usually when you get into the details of the truth, you can find some way of explaining it that makes sense.
00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:51.279
Because, like, you know, most of our decisions in life, they make sense in context, but we're afraid of, you know, oh, I don't know how to explain it, or they're not gonna see it the way I saw it, or something like that.
00:08:51.440 --> 00:09:05.600
So when you um clear that up inside you, and you're just like, oh yeah, if they do ask this, I could answer it, then you show up differently altogether because you don't have that one saying that you're like trying to protect and hide.
00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:08.080
Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:08.879
Absolutely.
00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.919
That's a great tip because honestly, I never placed it that way.
00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:22.080
Like that everything makes sense given the context, given what context it took place in.
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So if you could have that story ready in which the context is part of the approach you're taking, or or whatever you have to present to the organization or to your boss about, then it's like, oh, it completely makes sense.
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Like, you know, why would I guard it?
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:44.879
Just like you said.
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And I think it it is a great way to balance the power dynamic in the room too, because often if you're going for an annual review and or a job interview, guess what?
00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:02.399
We're always thinking, well, they have more power.
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:08.879
So I have to now present in a way that, you know, that I really want this.
00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:17.039
I want that job, or I want that promotion, or I want that increase in my pay.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:24.799
So are there any other practical techniques to just subtly balance the power dynamic?
00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:25.600
Mm-hmm.
00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.279
Yeah, I mean, for both of these examples, it's kind of similar.
00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:36.000
And for negotiations in general, again, this goes back to the behind the scenes work, which is finding other options.
00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:48.639
It takes time, it's hard, it's stressful, but it is the only real way to make sure that when you show up, you don't have that too much of like wanting it, right?
00:10:48.799 --> 00:11:11.200
And then what happens is that it is that power dynamic like is radically different where you're if you don't have any other options or you don't have information about like where you stand and you don't feel good about where you stand in general, then you're always going to show up with more kind of neediness, urgency, and things like that.
00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:13.759
And again, that's not that's not easy, right?
00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:15.120
That's that is the hard work.
00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.879
That is the substance of a job search or performance review, like promotion.
00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:24.159
That's the work is is making sure that you are looking for other options.
00:11:24.559 --> 00:12:00.080
And that being said, if you don't feel like you have other options, then you know, the the realistic assessment of where you are and and how you stand in in the state of things with this negotiation or interview, it's important to be able to be realistic about that and not like, you know, if you try to come across as like, oh, I'm evaluating you as well, but the reality in your brain subconsciously is like, uh-oh, I hope I get this.
00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:08.399
It's gonna come across as as arrogant and like overstated, overly uh sort of like like performative, you know.
00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:09.840
Absolutely.
00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:18.000
So yeah, so the the substance of the work is making sure that you're you're hustling to like get information, get other options.
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:19.120
Yeah.
00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:28.320
Um and and honestly, though, some you know, like every every negotiation interview, whatever, is the start of a relationship or the continuing of a relationship.
00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:32.639
And so in many ways, it's always a test of the other person.
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Do I want to be continue a relationship with this person?
00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:41.360
So when you negotiate, it it's also a like a test.
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.679
Do you, you know, where are you gonna get red flags?
00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:55.360
Are you going to you don't because you don't want to enter a situation where you start a job, for example, or you continue a job with a boss that that's just gonna make your life horrible.
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Like it's better to do the hustling and get the other options than to like let that happen.
00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:01.600
Yeah.
00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:02.559
Absolutely.
00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:12.639
And I wanna just uh expand on a couple of things you just said that uh you should always be hustling and go in with a couple of options, like in your hand, right?
00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:19.039
I understand it's not always possible, but you know, try to make that happen if you can.
00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:37.120
The other thing that you said, which is wonderful because I've come across so many people who took the job because their situation warranted that, you know, they should take the job, but then they just stayed there for three months and then they're like, uh, this is not a good fit.
00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:43.679
And I'm not saying, you know, that don't try and you know, trying and experimenting is part of it.
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However, to increase your chances of ending up in an organization where you're a good fit, all of these things do come into play.
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Like, did you do the work beforehand, right?
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Did you have multiple options?
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:12.240
Did you try to understand beforehand if this relationship is the relationship that you want to continue with this team, with this organization?
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:14.320
So all good stuff, really.
00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:28.799
I and I don't think so that when we are, especially if we are job hunting, there is a certain aspect of desperation there, uh which kind of takes over.
00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:48.799
But if we could give ourselves like a certain time period, like three to six months for job hunting, and then put all these practical tips that you shared, Dave, into practice, I think we would end up in an organization where we would like to stay long term.
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:50.399
Yeah.
00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:55.200
And actually, if I if I can continue with that, because I think that's a really important point.
00:14:55.360 --> 00:15:00.240
And this is the people who really need the help the most are those who feel very desperate.
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:07.919
And that is one of those stories that I have worked with people a lot on, which is why am I looking for so long?
00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:12.080
Like I hope they don't ask me why I haven't had a job for a year, right?
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:26.240
And the the reality is, I have never worked with someone who is not doing something interesting or important without the job, right?
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.000
They're searching, but they're doing something.
00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:43.039
And so, like, if you find that story that's authentic to you and you enjoy talking about, um, it really changes everything because you you get these blinders in the desperation where you're like, oh, I have nothing.
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.000
And it's really, I mean, I've never found it to be true, where someone is just doing nothing, right?
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.960
They're like, if you don't have a job, you have time on your hands.
00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:56.240
So you're probably doing something, you're learning something, you are whatever, networking in different ways.
00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.399
And so that's one thing, which is get clear on your story.
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.799
But the other thing is the hustle itself.
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:10.720
Uh, one of the most important things I that I have found personally in working with people is make the hustle easy.
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:20.320
You have to, the ease of it is the only goal because the job search is so uncertain that it stops when you get lucky.
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:25.600
And so you just have to keep going and survive the process long enough to get lucky.
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.360
Okay, I want to expand on that a little further.
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.559
You said it stops when you get get lucky.
00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.240
What do you mean by that?
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:36.159
I mean it's so uncertain.
00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:42.159
Like the factors, you know, you you get an interview, you're like, oh wow, I didn't think I would get this, or whatever, and you get offers.
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:51.840
It's there, there's the factors that are external to you that you don't control are so many that you can only do so much, right?
00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:56.639
You can craft your stories well, you can apply, and you can talk to people.
00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:58.879
And that's pretty much all you can do.
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.039
And yes, if you if you do a lot of that, like it's a numbers game.
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:11.119
So what happens is eventually you get lucky, you hit the right moment at the right company or whatever, and you just have no idea.
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.599
So the so a lot of people like don't understand this.
00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:29.759
And it's a very to me, it's very clear and simple, and I've but I like have to explain it uh to everybody kind of a few times, is that ease of the process, the ability to continue is the only thing that matters.
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:36.640
Because if you if you focus on too much quality and you like, like, all right, let's just give an example.
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:48.319
Let's say you spend um three hours on one application, how likely are you to like when are you gonna be ready to apply again?
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.079
If you spend three hours, right, you're gonna be drained.
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:53.759
You're gonna be like, okay, this sucks.
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:55.039
I can't do this for six months.
00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:56.000
Are you kidding?
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:57.279
Yeah.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:03.680
But what if you spent you know, 10 minutes on an application and three hours is like 180 minutes?
00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:09.279
So that's 18 applications, and you did one of those a day, and you just like just focus on that.
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:21.440
What happens is each application, um, if you spend 10 minutes on it, meaning you're looking at it, you're taking in information, you're tweaking it a little bit, you're gonna, the quality is going to go up incrementally.
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:21.920
Yeah.
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:26.640
And you're not gonna get drained to the point where you're like, I give up, I can't keep doing this.
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:41.039
Because that's that's the real problem is people just they sabotage by like forcing themselves to spend so much time on one application and then just being like, you know, God, I hope this works, because otherwise I can't do anymore.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:41.839
Yeah.
00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:43.119
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:44.160
No, I agree.
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.039
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said.
00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:53.359
And thanks for, you know, just expanding that because it's it's a difficult process to grasp.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:05.200
A lot of times, as you just said, that we just are spending so much time and energy into one thing, then we are like, okay, how can it becomes harder to multiply that, right?
00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:14.160
So, and I think for anything which is hard or the outcome is worth it, but the process is hard.
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:18.880
The just like you said, the whole goal should be to make it easier.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:51.039
So, you know, how can you have that resume ready, which you can just customize, you know, based on let's say that you have three ideal job, you know, descriptions in your head, and maybe you have done the work to put them out on a Google Doc, then how do you just switch the resume from one to the other, or just have that um customized resume ready to go so you don't have to spend that much time, right?
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.160
It all depends upon how many tries.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.400
It's like a trial and error process, how many times are you trying?
00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.240
So that's a great way to put it.
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:01.200
I love it.
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:11.920
So I have a few questions that a lot of like my clients have asked, corporate clients have asked, and I'm gonna ask you those next.
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:16.720
And they are related to salary negotiation.
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:26.480
So one of the questions is from Phil, and Phil asked me, when is the best time to bring up salary in an interview?
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.160
So for we're talking about like for a new job, right?
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.440
Yes, yeah.
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:45.519
So um my philosophy uh, and whenever I do it and and work with people on it, is basically to take it slow and do it later.
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.400
Because like often also it just depends.
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:56.480
The company, sometimes the company will just say, This is the salary, are you okay with that in the first interview, right?
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.079
And if that happens, it's hard to negotiate after that.
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:01.599
You kind of just have to decide.
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:17.359
But if a company, you know, if and what that usually means, if they're really clear, like this is the salary, take it or leave it, is that they they feel like they're in a very strong position where they have a lot of applicants for for this job or a lot of the same role, similar roles.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.559
And yeah, and so in that case, you just assess.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:25.440
But if they don't say anything in the beginning, then you don't say anything in the beginning.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:31.359
That's my general philosophy because your leverage is them wanting you.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:44.000
It just comes across as it doesn't come across great, and it just you don't have any power or like, or leverage, leverage meaning the ability to get them to want something in the very beginning, right?
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:54.640
But after you've done a few interviews, maybe you've met your manager, maybe you've met their manager or the CEO or whatever, you have more leverage because you've started to create relationships.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.359
And so yeah, and you're creating trust, you're building trust, I mean.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.359
Yeah, you're building trust.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:01.920
Exactly.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:13.839
So if you feel like you are doing a good job in that and you feel that the the pay is like a little low for what I have made or whatever, it's good to find a reason if you can.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:16.160
I actually posted on LinkedIn about this today.
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:16.799
Nice.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:34.480
Basically that the the three steps of communication that I recommend, especially just if you're kind of don't feel super strong, like you're afraid of getting the job rescinded, the the offer rescinded, is just one is like affirm that yes, I really like this company.
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:39.119
I like, I think I would do really good at this job, and I'm excited to do this job well.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.400
Two is at the same time, I do think it's worth a little bit more.
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:46.079
You know, it's worth X more to do this job.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:54.960
Um, based on, and again, you could come up with like, I used to get paid this much for this role, or I've seen in my research other roles, or you don't even need a reason.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:58.400
You can just say, I would like X more, you know?
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:00.880
And you don't really have to give a reason.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:05.759
And they will like it, that can even be stronger sometimes because they can't refute it.
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:18.720
But then, and then you end with basically like, but I understand that there are limitations and you let me know how much you can do more, and let's find something that aligns with both of us.
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.480
Absolutely.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:21.519
Absolutely.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:40.880
And sometimes it's also in the multiple interviews or series of interviews, as you mentioned, you can each and every time you're sitting across from the team or the managers or the boss or the CEO, you can be building up on what you have to offer.
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:42.960
What are you bringing to the table?
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.400
Because at the end of the day, that's gonna decide your salary, right?
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:53.279
What results are you gonna be able to bring into this organization with the work that you're gonna perform?
00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:02.079
So every time you go, there should be something that you can add to the to what you're offering.
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.319
I think that always helps.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:14.640
I just wanna underscore you what you said, that if you could just delay the process or the bringing the number up.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:23.200
And I and I've seen a lot of people actually do it very early on where they are they are feeling the need to know what the number is gonna be.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:29.519
So then they they bring it up themselves, where where it should be the other way around, as you just explained to us.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:30.400
So great.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.559
Thanks for explaining that.
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:33.200
Okay.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.839
The next question is from Jeff, and it's about promotion strategies.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:45.200
Jeff said that requesting a promotion can easily trigger intense imposter syndrome, right?
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.319
When he feels like he needs to be at its sharpest.
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:56.000
Do you have any tips that you suggest to people in that situation who are dreading the conversation with their boss?
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:09.519
There's a lot of things you can do in terms of like building relationships and becoming that person who's like your boss really values.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:24.079
And and that kind of all comes down to just seeing like what is their what's their stress coming from, and how can I use my skills to like take some of their stress away.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:32.319
That's generally, even though it seems obvious maybe to say, most people don't think that way.
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:35.359
They think in terms of doing their job well.
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:44.640
And also, by the way, most people are so focused on how other people are not letting them do their job well, like, oh, this person's getting my way, this person's getting my way, right?
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.200
So a lot of people spend so much time there.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:56.000
And, you know, yeah, I mean, if you're trying to get promoted, there's always an aspect of just like having to go above and beyond a little bit.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:58.400
And I mean, usually there is.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:00.480
So there's there's that.
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:05.920
But then, and the more you can do that, the less imposter syndrome you'll generally feel.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:24.640
But then on the other hand, there's like I would again recommend just always be casually looking for other jobs because you that's where you get a little bit of that feeling, like, oh, if this doesn't work out, I'll be okay.
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.400
And, you know, you might be applying or you might not be.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:38.240
I would apply just for like go through the process so that when you if you do get laid off or you do decide to quit, you're not like out of practice completely.
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:46.000
And so I I don't I go on job interview, I apply for jobs and go on interviews just myself to test things.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:48.480
And also to keep that's a great way to do it.
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.000
Yeah, it's like uh SAT tutors, they take the SAT themselves, right?
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.920
Like you you just you you keep up with it.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:58.720
And it's just especially if you're in a good place, like that's the best time to do it.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.319
And then yeah, you have less imposter syndrome if you know you have other options.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:05.200
So, you know, those two things are good.
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.599
Yeah, and and yeah, so thinking about your belief.
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:26.000
No, I think these two, if we just thought uh kept these two practical tips front and center before beforehand in most organizations and on most teams, people know when their a promotion interview or annual review is gonna come up.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.759
You know, they they know ahead of time.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:43.759
So that being said, if you can start doing that work three months ahead, figuring things out, like how you can best help your boss and the organization to bring results and then have some options in the back, you'll be fine.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:54.000
I want to double-click on the first one though, because as you mentioned, a lot of us, we including me sometimes, we are not thinking in those terms, right?
00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:11.519
And I was listening to this podcast, and this professor, Emory University professor was on, and she's like, I've been teaching MBA graduate students for years, and every year she picks like teaching assistants from her cohorts.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:18.880
And she said that I always have more applications than the positions for TAs.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:25.440
And she said that this one application stood out over her tenure 10 years at Emory.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:37.279
And she's like, this applicant, she wrote to me that I understand that as a teaching assistant, my job is gonna be to help you grade papers.
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:45.519
And I also understand that you are teaching four courses this semester, which means you have 600 students under you.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:53.680
So I would love to help you grade their papers and help with some extra work.
00:28:54.480 --> 00:29:10.880
And I'm I also know that you are part of this ABC research, which I would love to get just, you know, introduced to if you feel like once I've helped you grading those papers.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:16.400
And she's like, all the other applicants they get it the other way around.
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:23.200
They're like, oh, so professor, how can we actually get into your research program?
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:39.519
And she was like, this applicant got down to the fact that uh she understands how busy I am and how she's gonna be able to help me and you know help me be more productive in my work.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:50.079
And then her second ask was okay, will I be able to get some time doing the research with you as well?
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:52.480
Right?
00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:06.480
So I I believe exactly what you were saying, that a lot of times we're just thinking, you know, it's so hard to get the work accomplished, which we have on our to-do list.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:13.359
How can we even think about helping our boss or helping the department get ahead?
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:24.720
But I think that's where exactly that roadblock is or obstacle exists, where we have to reframe, reframe that question that, oh, start thinking of ways to make things smoother.
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:31.759
And not only would they make them smoother and more productive for you, but for your whole team too.
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.920
I think it that's how it works.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:48.240
So how can team members and employees best quantify their workplace value in a yearly review meeting, which we kind of like just touched upon?
00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:00.559
And the reason I bring this up again is because a lot of people, especially women, female clients, they're like, uh, that's so like cringe.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:09.119
I can't do it because I will sound so self-centered and boastful, and I don't boost about myself.
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:12.559
So what do you have to say about that?
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:13.519
Mm-hmm.
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:15.200
Yeah, there's a lot here.
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:22.720
First of all, I will just say that most of most of my clients are female, most of my clients are women, and yeah, and I don't know why.
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.079
I think it's just my personality, I guess, but there is a difference, you know.
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:28.960
You you kind of do have to approach it differently as a woman.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:37.200
But in terms of like quantifying stuff, the quick answer for like how you can present it is it goes both ways.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:49.839
You quantify stuff so that you can um show that you're performing well, but you also quantify stuff so that the company knows whether you're performing well.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:32:00.480
And so if you can frame it that way, you can say, you know, uh and by the way, I would recommend telling someone beforehand that you are doing this.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:08.160
It makes more sense like to do that, and then later be like, by the way, you know I quantify stuff about my work, right?
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:09.599
Here's what I have, right?
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:19.200
Instead of at the last like minute, which a lot of people, that's why it's cringy, is if you're like, hey, by the way, I have these like stats that I don't even you don't know about them.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.440
I don't even know if you care about them or whatever.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:32.559
But that's so that's a good way to approach it, is is to be like, look, I would like to find ways to kind of quantify my work so that we are clear on like whether I'm doing well or not.
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:51.279
You know, and that by the way, just that alone shows a ton of courage and confidence, which if you don't have it, it's hard to to do that, but you know, do that work a little bit first, get clear on your strengths, get clear on your story and stuff like that, and then be like, okay, hey boss, like I'm gonna start quantifying certain things.
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:53.440
Here's what I think makes sense for my like performance.
00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:54.319
What do you think?
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.680
You know, so start beforehand and then later you have that.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:58.559
Yeah.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.640
But yeah, a lot of places these days will have their KPIs, right?
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.440
So it's kind of already baked into it for you.
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:12.000
But yeah, like, you know, often startups kind of don't as much, and and even corporate places, like they might not.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:13.759
So yeah.
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.279
Yeah, no, that's great.
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:16.319
That's awesome.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:24.160
That if you can just put it out there, what you're about to say, and like set a little bit of an expectation, then people are expecting it.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:32.799
Like, you know, then then it doesn't sound like you were self-centered, but yeah, numbers matter, like data matters.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.480
So I think everybody understands that in every organization.
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:37.359
So just say that.
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:42.720
Oh, I'd like to quantify, just like you said, or as you know, I I like to quantify.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:51.279
So this is what I've done in the last two quarters, and I just wanted to make sure that I present that in our meeting today.
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:55.519
And they're gonna be like, wow, great! Like this is awesome, right?
00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:03.279
We didn't even have to ask for it, or we didn't have to go through and look for those results ourselves and the on the back end.
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:05.200
Like she she she was ready.
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:09.840
Um, and there's nothing like it's not as cringy as we think, actually.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:12.239
People want that from you.
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.880
So that's that's great.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:18.239
Okay, this question is from Rachel.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:26.000
What is your go-to strategy for recovering if a high-stakes answer goes like completely sideways?
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:32.000
Because she she has been passed over for promotion like three times.
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:37.119
And she's like, every time I sit across, I think I just end up saying something wrong.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:45.360
She's still in the organization because she believes that they're a good fit, but the annual reviews are not going well.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:46.480
Hmm.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.599
Yeah, I I don't think the problem is the moment itself.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:35:02.800
I think if you're really uh in my experience, digging into these kinds of situations, you it's not like you said the wrong thing in that moment.
00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:07.599
It's that the framing of your role.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.880
Yeah, the framing of your role and like within the organization is not right.
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:29.840
And you need to look at that a little bit more and do one-on-one conversations with a few different people to build that story, make sure that you're clear on like where do you sit really and why, not just like why am I not getting promoted, but why am I helpful?
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:30.480
You know?
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:39.519
And and that could be one way to ask at the end, like, you know, if it's not, it's like you can like establish why uh why are you still there, right?
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.679
Like, what do they really value in you?
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:50.000
And again, I would just go back if you've been passed over three times, I wouldn't expect anything different than the fourth time.
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.519
So I would start looking elsewhere, you know.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:59.360
I I don't think there, I think also at three times, you're probably feeling like trust has been broken in you.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.320
And so, like, it's hard to come back from that too.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.000
Your work is not gonna be as good for them.
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.280
You're not gonna like really care as much, you're not gonna trust them.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:12.000
I would just, you know, uh Yeah, start looking outside.
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:13.440
That's what I said to her.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:21.599
And I think I I if you don't mind, we can just double-click a little more on this situation because I think it happens to a lot of people.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:26.639
And I've heard this over and over again, and I want your take on this.
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:35.920
The biggest obstacle for her is her annual review is with the VP of the organization.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:45.440
Her she is directly reporting to a manager, and she's like, you know, her day-to-day or whatever, like quarterly basis review is with the manager.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.960
I'm like, maybe you need to communicate more often with the VP.
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:54.159
If if that's what's happening, you know, for your annual review, you're sitting across from a different person.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.920
And she's like, but I feel like my manager should be advocating for me.
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.960
And I'm yeah, I'm like, I don't know about that.
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:14.800
Maybe you have to find a way, like, you know, why why that communication isn't happening, and and maybe find a way to communicate more often with the VP.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.440
What do you think about that?
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:18.559
Mm-hmm.
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:19.599
Yeah, both.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:26.559
I think, you know, find ways to yeah, directly show your wins to the VP.
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:33.599
And again, find out, yeah, find out why they what stresses them out and how you can contribute to that in a way that they see more.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.840
And also have a conversation with the manager.
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.159
What is your view of me and like in the team?
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:46.000
And what do you think the VP thinks about our team?
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:59.599
And you know, just kind of getting a whole lay of the land, like something is going on that's that's unclear to this person, and you you have to be willing to like find out what it is if you want to stay.
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:11.280
And everyone, I think this is the actually goes back to like uh every problem as an adult is there's always a layer of I shouldn't have to do this.
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:21.119
And if you get really caught in that, then you you don't get what you want because you don't have the the energy to go after it.
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:26.400
Whereas people call it like ownership or something, but it's like it's like, oh, things I shouldn't have to do this.
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:27.519
My manager should be doing this.
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:29.440
It's like, yeah, yes, they should.
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.199
Like a great manager does that.
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:37.760
Your manager is not great, so you are now the one who has to do the thing.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:38.400
Yeah.
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:44.239
As the scene, coaching, like you have to remove the word should out of your vocabulary, right?
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:54.400
That like that's what the basis of coaching is like completely get rid of the word because it's always gonna come back and haunt you in different ways.
00:38:54.719 --> 00:39:10.639
Because, yes, to the to your point, when we are saying should in any situation or for anything or any person, we're kind of giving control to that person, control to that situation and removing ownership, right?
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:17.440
So as much ownership as you take in that situation, the better it's gonna be for you and you will understand it better.
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:27.840
Once you understand it better, then you know exactly what you need to do, like the steps you need to take to get to that outcome that you want, right?
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:36.719
If you're overly reliant on this other person or another team to get that accomplished, guess what?
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:41.599
I mean, you have to know what is going on and take ownership of it.
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.639
So I that's what how I see it.
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:47.039
If you would like to add to it, go for it.
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:47.519
Yeah.
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:56.000
Well, I think your point was really subtle and really important, which is that every thing is about like learning.
00:39:56.159 --> 00:40:03.599
Like every step you take, every application you send out in the job search, you learn a little bit, you you change a little bit.
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:11.599
And every conversation you have at a job that's like around this topic where you're trying to figure out what's going on, how do I move up?
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:13.039
You get that information.
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:21.840
And the the cool thing about that is that everything you learn is not just applicable to your current situation, but for the future, right?
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:26.400
So you may be in another job later where similar situation.
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:32.960
And if you've gone through this process, you'll be able to prevent what being passed over three times.
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:45.440
And the way I like to say it is every big challenge prepares you for even bigger challenges in the future and makes smaller challenges in the future even smaller.
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:47.039
Absolutely.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:48.159
Absolutely.
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:53.519
Oh, those are such great words to actually kind of wrap it up.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:54.960
This was great.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:41:04.000
Thanks for sharing all the great tips on how to approach job interviews and workplace negotiations.
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:06.639
Any parting words for our listeners?
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:18.159
I guess just to summarize, I would say like when you are afraid of talking about some part of yourself, dig into that.
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:24.320
You know, find the story, find the story that you are enjoy telling and practice that.
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:30.480
And then you will open up more, talk to more people, and it's always talking to more people that gets better things, right?
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:32.559
Inside a company, outside a company.
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:34.239
And it has to feel authentic.
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.519
And feeling fake is one of the it's just so hard.
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:38.400
It doesn't help.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:39.440
It doesn't help you.
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:40.000
Yeah.
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:48.880
And then doing your work to get other options and stuff so that you, when the big moment comes, you're a little bit more calm because you're not, it's not all or nothing.
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:50.559
Absolutely.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:51.519
Absolutely.
00:41:51.840 --> 00:42:13.039
Figure out how you can present yourself as an authentic person, as an authentic human, and then at the same time continue the hustle, continue the work, really double down on the work because the more, the more shots you take, the more chances you have to score a slam dunk.
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:14.159
So that's great.
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:15.440
That's a great takeaway.
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:21.039
Uh, Dave, where can our listeners and viewers find you and learn more about your work?
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:21.679
Yeah.
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:23.519
So I mean, I'm I'm on LinkedIn.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:27.519
I do have a small but growing YouTube and Instagram.
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:29.119
Uh, they're effortwise.
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.880
It's all effortwise now and effortwise.com.
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:33.760
Yeah.
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:34.960
Amazing.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:46.159
So I'm gonna put the link to your website, effortwise.com and your social media and your LinkedIn account, so that everybody can learn more about your work.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:47.760
Thank you for joining us.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:57.119
And please send this interview to someone who you know is looking for a job and or their annual review is coming up.
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:11.039
Just send this interview to someone because I think Dave gave us so many helpful practical tips, which we don't think of ourselves because we're just so in the thick of it.
00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:17.039
We're like just so focused on the application process andor the work.
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:21.519
If you're within the organization, you're like, oh no, this is the last quarter.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:23.679
I have to show certain KPIs.
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:26.159
Like, I'm so down into it.
00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:29.119
I can't think of the steps I need to take for my review.
00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:37.760
Just listening to this 40-minute conversation is gonna change the outcome of that interview for them.
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:40.719
So please, please share it with someone.
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:48.079
Maybe it's you, maybe it's somebody in your on your team, maybe it's your sister, you know, your brothers, siblings, cousins.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:51.119
Please share it and send it out to them.
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.320
Dave, once again, thank you so much for joining us.
00:43:54.559 --> 00:44:02.079
And to our viewers and listeners, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon and listening to us in a podcast format.
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:03.440
Bye for now.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:04.320
Thank you.
