Position Prototype - Wide Receivers. Identifying what makes the ultimate WR (Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, Odell Beckham Jr.)

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Speaker 1: And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. What's up everybody, d J, Bucky here, and Buck Man. I I'm fired up about this episode. I know you having played the position. This one's near and dear to your heart talking white outs today, Man, I love the You call him wide receivers. I call him the playmakers, the pass catches. These are the guys that we're beginning to see now make the offense go. You can make the argument outside of the quarterback, the wire receivers have started to become the second most important position on the field because these these are the guys that are able to make the big plays in the passing game. And everyone in the National Football League is living and dying with the passing game, no doubt. And here's who you have to look forward to the conversations in this episode. Thomas Dimitrof, general manager of the Atlanta Falcons, one of the best wide receiver rooms in the NFL, including arguably the best wide receiver in the NFL, and Julio Jones. We're gonna get his insight on scouting the position. Brian bill Like everybody knows, coach Billock from hoisting the trophy as a Super Bowl winning head coach of the Baltimore Ravens. But go back before that, when he was with the Minnesota Vikings and that receiving corps. He had a chance to coach as that offensive coordinator Randy Moss Jake read Chris Carter. What a person to talk to in regards the position, and how about somebody that's played the position for fifteen years in the National Football League. Brandon Stokely is gonna offer unique insight. Bucky is is one of the better route runners uh during his career. A couple stints there with Peyton Manning. Uh, some fascinating stories from from Mr Stokely. I know the folks are gonna enjoy. The folks will enjoy all of these interviews. Thomas Demetro. Obviously, you talked about having Julio Jones, Brian Billick being the director of that explosive offense with the Minnesota Vikings, and the Brandon Stokely who found a way to survive in this league for fifteen years. You just don't play the position that long to National Football League without being talented and skill in several areas throwing left side wants DeAndre Hopkins and nuke what the TV catch? Oh my goodness, Breese drops back, throws down the slot, Mike Thomas stride. He's do the thirty, He's do the twenty to the ten. Touchdown, Mike Thomas seventy two yards and the Saints strike a hole in the hearts of the Rams and the fourth takes the snappy's back to throw. He lobbed one left for back up again. Who's got a touchdown? Giants? Here's Olio Jones is open down the far sideline and we'll score. Oh my heavens. All right, let's get to our evaluation before we get to those conversations. What we're looking for when we're scouting the position, Buck, I'll give you the floor. The first thing I look for, you know, it's a mix of explosiveness and separation, meaning I want to be able to see a guy that at the top of his break he is able to create separation from the defensive back. Everyone worries about the forty time and how fast these guys going to straight line, but really the guys have superb stop start quickness. Are the ones that are able to set parade and if you can create a yard two yards of separation. In the National Football League, you're wide open by any measure. You have to have guys that can create that space to be able to be successful as number one receivers. I love that, and to me, I write down quickness and separation. So those are the two words I use when you're looking at those things. Um, we've talked about it before. Uh, don't get carried away with the forty time. Obviously, you want guys to be explosively, you know, you know, look at a guy like Tyreek Hill. That helps. Um. But if you have to choose and it's between speed and skill, UM, I'll give a little bit on the speed and in order to get the skill because we've seen it buck. Um. You you look in the National Football League right now. We talked about this in the run up to the combine. Looking at the guys that caught over a hunter balls last year, and you see guys like Michael Thomas, DeAndre Hopkins, Davante Adams, Juju Smith, Schuster, Antonio Brown, Keenan Allen. What do those guys have in common? None of them cracked below four five on forty. Uh. These guys are skill, overspeed, skill and quickness. Uh. Those are areas that I I start with right there. You've got to be able to get in and out and and of course you gotta be able to catch football. You know, do you have strong hands? And I've really got into this the last a couple of years. We've talked about it on the movie Sticks podcast, But contact strength is is something that I find more important as we go along. Just look at what's taking place in the postseason and think about some of the big plays that were made and some of the big plays that weren't made. At the wide receiver position, I want guys with strong hands that can absorb contact and finish. You know, it's funny because this last trade that I look for kind of encompasses everything that we've talked about leading into it. You talked about guys that were dependable, reliable could do a great job of making uh contested catch. You can deal with the contact. I believe reliability is a huge factor in the evaluation process. Can I depend on you to make the catch and the clutch, whether that's third down, isn't in the red zone, is in a critical situation with a game on the line, in a two minute drill, can I throw the ball out in your direction and consistently counting you to make those plays. Those of the guys that are able to really play for a long time in the league, the guys that are the dependable, reliable chain movers who also have some big playability. Yeah, and I would add on to those those qualities. Now, the way the game is played, run after catch, I would argue, more important than it's ever been. You know, you you come from your scouting background, Buck, You guys had always focused on returners and finding you know, guys outside the first round that had that return ability. A lot of the players we just mentioned with with all this production, they had return ability. And that's a great way when evaluating college players at the position man, do they return kicks? Can I watch this guy? How is he in space? Um? Run after the catch? With all the bubble screens and tunnel screens and quick hitters and fly sweeps and all that's incorporated in today's NFL R p O S. Buck, I don't know that run after catch has ever been more important. It is very important that the receiver is able to make things happen when he gets the ball in his hands. Part of the reason why we look for former point returners. When I was in Seattle and when I played in Green Bay, we feel like those guys were were comfortable in traffic, They were comfortable being around a lot of bodies, and they had a level of toughness that allowed them to break tackles. And so when you're looking at why receivers, be it for the draft, be it trying to reject where they could fall in free agency, look for gas. We were very, very comfortable making things happen with the ball in the hands most more times than not. If you go and look in their bio, there were guys that were former punt returners at some level, be it college, were in high school. They understand how to play in space absolutely well. We could go on and on about evaluing this position, but I know how the folks listening want to hear from some of our guests and their thoughts on it. Our first guest, uh, we had a fantastic conversation with Thomas Dimitrof. We aired a portion where he talked about his Atlanta Falcons team in depth. You can look in the in the archives are the Movie Stix podcast to find that episode. Tremendous insight there on the Falcons team uh in a broad sense, but we got a chance to really pin him down and have a great conversation about what makes a talented wide receiver and in a wide receiver you can depend on can win with in today's NFL um We're gonna get to coach billikinbrand Stokely a little bit later, but right now here is our conversation with Falcons general manager Thomas Dimitrov. Ryan wants to throw chose to catch Loria Julio in the Green Bay territory a stiff arm at the fifty ted five touchdown Atlanta. Atlanta is on the way to winning the NFC title and playing two weeks today in Super Bowl fifty one in Houston. If I have this correct, t D, are you going into your twelfth year as a general manager the Atlanta Falcons? Can that be possible? Unbelievable? It is twelve years and that's not a backpad at all. It's just it blows me away because we know how you know, how a treacherous can be walking through a career like this, just because there's just a lot going on, of course, but twelve years, I think it may be. There may be three or four of us that are right around that a little bit more tenure than I am. My first question, you, Thomas Win, when you're looking at that position, the wide receiver position, what what are the non negotiables? What are the things you absolutely have to have if you're going to spend a pick on a wide receiver? Well, I, you know, we we've talked about this many many years, having been brought up through the you know, the Patriot world, and and you know, there's no question you need athleticism, pure movement, body control. I talked about urgent athleticism on the defensive side, but I also think there needs to be urgency. There needs to be ability to run a route with urgency stop start, redirect separation is massively important for a receiver. You know, some people do it different ways. You know, Julio's movement, of course, is different than Calvin Ridley's. To me, when I watched him at his workouts, and you guys might have been at that Alabama workout, I have never seen a player runner route the way that he did and you know, gather his you know, gather his weight d sell to zero, so to speak, and get into and out of his cuts like Calvin Ridley it is. It is really fascinating to watch as he continues to grow. We think that that combination of his speed, his ability to separate pure natural athleticism, and continuing to hone his catching skills, you know, could could make him into you know, one of the you know, the very very most talented players in the league as well. We feel that way. He's got a great leader and Julio Jones. When we went after Julio back in eleven, that was one of the things that stood out in my mind. It was this big, really really athletic guy who had the ability to to run routes like he was six ft uh or five eleven. Quite honestly, that really caught my eye. It was one of the things that I continue to think about all the time as we put together are our receiving group is making sure that again separate speed athleticism, um, and of course they have to be really really really fiery and competitive, and we think all of our group is. You know, Thomas, it's funny because I'm writing down the things that you talked about athleticism and body controlled explosiveness. You called it urgency, uh, separation UH. You talked about the speed and the routroundability. Um, when I look at the trend now in the league, how do you determine whether I want a big receiver or one of those guys that we may now refer to as a little receiver. Big receiver talking six two six three, those big basketball types versus the guys that are kind of you know, the six footers or six ft or fewer um guys that you can have on your roster. Well, I mean that's another thing I've thought time and again. I mean maybe a few years ago I wasn't as um interested in always having that, you know, that bigger receiver. Since I've been around you know, Julio Jones and and and you know, uh, most a new to see what they bring to our team. Uh and then mix in, you know, mixing some guys that you know, I'm not saying Calvin Ridley is small, because he's far from small, But I mean mixing other really athletic guys into a group of four or five or six receiver eivers that have some size in the group. I think that's really really important. You know, you're gonna you're gonna have, you know, you're gonna have people out there who think, Okay, there are a lot of big receivers out there now you have to match them with you know, big corners or vice versa. And it is a really interesting Uh, it's it's interesting to see how that's spinning around our league right now. You guys both know that because you you obviously are very honed in and understand receivers and corners. Um, I just coming back to what we believe here. We need to make sure that we have a really good mix on our you know, within our group of receivers. We don't want to be you know, full of a whole bunch of five ten and five eleven receivers, nor do we want to have, you know, a whole bunch of longer, loping receivers who are six four who aren't separating the way that we want. I'm a big believer in versatility and and mix and I think with that, you know, that really helps when running routes. It throws it throws defenses off when we have different mixes of players within your your receiving group. TD. When you look at it, last year, the trend we saw that that speech shovel really kind of explode. Uh. Last year we also saw the fly sweep all the stuff. The Rams kind of got got rolling a bunch of teams incorporating that around the league, the Chiefs doing it as well. Last year was a record number of wide receiver carries. Uh So when you look at run after catch, is that carry more weight? You know, you're trying to find one guy like that to kind of mix into your group somewhere you can just flip the ball to. And how is that evolved and changed over the years you've been doing this. Well, that's a that's an interesting conversation as well, because you think about bubble screams and screens and different ideas with getting your receivers you know, involved in in in the mayhem, so to speak. There have been many times over the years where I'm like, I'm just holding myself watching Julio Jones grab a ball when it is rough and stumble out there, you know, and I'm thinking, uh, please, please, you know, let's let's give that to the new he's gotta you know, he's got a little more girth on him that way, and and uh, but but I think it's really really important. You know, that run after the catch idea is is hugely important for us. We get the ball to all of our guys. I mean, Julio does an amazing job doing it in his own way. Of course, Calvin Ridley, you get him the ball and what he can do with his explosiveness to me is second to none. And then you have most a new on a completely different wave length who is going to grab the ball and get his hard five six or seven yards. So we feel we have three at least three different approaches to that and and that run after catch Daniel is huge for us, very important. I don't I don't mean to play it down. The only thing I don't want to do is obviously get our players injured. So hopefully they're going to be doing at the right time in the right place. I like the I like the fact that you're talking about injury and you're worrying about that. UM talked about having diversity into why receiver Corps d G and I kind of references to building a basketball team. You've got some post up guys, you got some shooters, you got a three indeed guy. When you look at the way the league is trending, UM, how many of those wire receivers in your wire receiver corps really need to be guys that are what I call key contributors. We're so used to having people talk about the number one receiver, but how vital is it to have a number three receiver that has a role, the number four receiver that also can make some place very very important for us? I mean one, two, and three. Of course, you know, we consider them starters, you know, plain and simple. Number four is really important for us. Not only of course, you know, on the field runner routes, which is important for us, but of course he has to have a has to have a place out in special teams as well. And some of those guys, it becomes complicated when you put together that that group of receivers. If you have an aging receiver who is still a really good receiver, and yet you have a really good number three receiver, a young and up and coming number three, then that receiver who might be at two or three on your on your in your group, becomes four and he doesn't have a special team's place, then unfortunately that guy can become obsolete. So it's it becomes it becomes a really interesting discussion about how you want to put together you know, all four potentially even five figure receivers. Four receivers for sure. Back in the day, I used to feel like, you know, one and two is fine. Man, if you can pop off for legit receivers. I think you combine that with a really a depth running game and a good tight end. I think, uh, I think you have the makings uh for for a team in an offense that can be prolific. Last question from me, t you appreciate all your time today, um, when you look at the future scouting at the position, at the wide receiver position. We talk on here all the time about how sometimes a scouting world can get a little bit stuck in the stone age, and if we're looking to to be progressive going forward. One of the ideas we've kicked around is with all the GPS you guys have at the NFL level and now almost every major college has that, do you envision in the future where instead of talking about forty times, we're talking about how a guy his acceleration numbers with mph, his ability to decelerate, and actually having hard data on that information going forward in the scouting process. Daniel, let's you hit the nail on the head. There were were in the process of talking about you know next steps within the combine and and you know, evaluating players And there is no question that player tracking is going to take it to a completely different level. And we're gonna be looking back on some of the sort of more remedial elements of what we do now. We've always said that, right, and I'm gonna be laughing at it, think are you kidding me? Um? And I love it. I think it's really good. I don't ever want to lose the sanctity of this game. I know you you guys both believe that. But we have to continue to make it better. And I think you know, by by you know analytics and where we are with you know, analyzing at a lot of different levels, I think it can take us to a much better spot. And quite honestly, it's gonna it's gonna allow team builders to make more edgy cadd decisions instead of just you know, making choices off you know, off their gut or off their heart. And I think that's a really important UH situation for for most of us as team boaters, and of course for owners as well. You know, TV I've always said the team that is able to figure out the right mix between UH tape study and analytic kind of like the data equation, there can be the team that goes to the next level because the information is there is just a matter of not going solely on the numbers and not being totally on the tape, but being able to blend it together so you can have the best evaluations. Oh bucket, you guys both know this because you guys are both evaluated a lot. It is. It's a it's a tough situation when you're sitting there with five linebackers are in this case five receivers, and you truly want to differentiate between the five and and it's we've come so far in today's world versus even ten fifteen years ago when you looked at those five receivers and you're really trying to map out what the differences are. And now you're able to take you know, your ability as a pure of value or which we all all value a great deal, and then supplement properly with the right analytics. Then I think you have, you know, an unbelievable way to approach you know, your your analysis, and you know, look that you can take that out of the scouting and acquisition side and you can put it onto the coaching side as well. Get a really good football coach who has a great feel for scheme and then supplement it with the right analytics and the right you know, the right proper study. And I think, you know, I think we're gonna be We're gonna be, you know, shooting into the sky with success because I I just think it's gonna be amazing when we look at this fifty and twenty years from now. Uh, you know where we've evolved, because again most of us want that, we're just uh, we need to be open minded to it enough, of course. And when you have these these owners that are now coming in and we are willing to spend the money on it, I think it's it's massively been a sail well. T D. Look, this is your first day off, and I know how precious the time is in the off season and gets shorter and shorter each and every year. So for you to carve out some time for us today, man, we uh, we cannot thank you enough. It's it was great to catch up with you, hey, d J. Man. It's always great to have Thomas de meetro Off on the program. Brings so many insights. But I'm really fascinated by the way that he kind of views Julio Jones. Uh. He talked about that that explosiveness and his ability to separate. We've had them on before, and he talked about urgent athletes, guys that I like to call asap players, UM, guys that make it happen as soon as possible when they get the ball in his hands. I just believe as the league has continued to trend towards the passing game, and as more of these offensive coordinators, I finding these give me plays, be it key screens, bubble screens, slip screens, to get the ball in the playmaker's hands on the perimeter, you have to have guys that are comfortable being plunt returners because it doesn't bother them to be in traffic. More importantly, they understand and how to have the balance and body control to break down because it made big things happen. Yeah, a couple of things stood out to me. Number one is, uh, you know, we you evaluate for your own team when you're scouting in the league, when you're when you're a pro scout, right you you evaluate your own roster. That's part of the job. We The other part of the job is you're creating an advanced scouting report for your opponents and letting your coaching staff know about the personnel they're getting ready to play on the upcoming Sunday. And we talked about it all the time Blue ship players, right, guys you have to worry about guys you have to game plan against. And when you have a wide receiver, a big time wide receiver that you have to deal with and and work coverage around, uh presents a challenge. So I think there is a lot of value. I know some folks have looked at it and said, well, if you look at the Super Bowl winning teams over the last several years, um, they lack that that high power, superstar wide receiver. And I say, look, we're living in the New England Patriots era. Okay, so this is gonna be something we look back and it's gonna be a lot of It's gonna be stand alone in terms of how they operated and what they're able to accomplish. And UH, I don't want poople anything they're doing, but I'm just saying there is a tremendous value when you've got a big time horse on the outside. When we think about number one receivers the way that I've been taught, the definition of a number one receiver is a guy that commands a double team. He is so talented that you leave him alone one on one, he cannot be guarded. He's unstoppable. He's a guy that dictates the terms to the defense in terms of how they want to play their coverage, and even when they're double coverage, double covered, they still find a way to make those plays. So when we think about some of the guys that are at the top of the charts year in year out, Antonio Brown is able to do it. DeAndre Hopkins does it. We see Julio Jones do it, Odell Beckham Jr. Does it, And we're beginning to see Michael Thomas do it. These dominant players, these number one receivers, they have the ability to win versus any coverage. But they make you, as a defensive coordinator, really dig deep in a bag of tricks to try and come up with a way to slow them down. One more thing here before we get to Brandon Stokely and coach Brian billick Um. I thought, it's fascinating to me, and I know you feel the same way. Technology and how that's going to impact how we evaluate positions, and particularly the wide receiver position because buck the uh having having the trackers on players and being able to monitor the GPS equipment that is already out there and employed right now. It's gonna make a huge difference when that's available in the scouting process. Oh, it's gonna make a tremendous difference because being able to track players. We talk in the NBA about load management and how are you able to kind of uh reduce the impact on your players by kind of giving them a day off for not making them kind of fight through the wall. But when it comes to our receivers, there's no one that runs as much of our receivers on the field. Every play is basically attracted me. And so if you're able to kind of put some monitors on the players kind of see where they're you then could come up with a better plan for later week to be able to kind of get them going so they're fresh. More importantly, you're able to check their real explosiveness. It's going to change the way that we evaluate, uh, why receiving accelerationtion, Yeah, that's gonna be asking to see where it goes from a scouting standpoint. All right, Buck, We're gonna get to a coach, Brian Billick in a minute. But first up our conversation with one of Peyton Manning's favorite targets on two different teams. Brandon stokely actor throw Trent Dilford throwing deep down the middle. First, Stoke, please got it? Ten? Brandon stokelay for the store. He beat Jason c Horn and the Ravens up thirty eight yard strike Delford Stoke clay Uh coming out of I still say, what Southwestern Louisiana and now now it's University of Louisiana. What we call in your school now Stoke Louisiana, University of Louisiana at last, Yet we we like to be the state schools. I want to say University of Louisiana. Okay, that's a good one. I like that. Well, we'll go with that. And by the way, do we ever figure this out? Because our teams played against each other when I was at Northeast Louisiana and in nineteen seven, but I think you might have been hurt. I don't know if you played in that game against n l U that year. Did you play in that one? I don't think I didn't play in that one. And um, I try to forget those last two years of my career in college. They weren't very successful. We didn't win many football games. Well you did. You did win plenty of football games when you got to the next level. I want to talk to you about the wide receiver position today, obviously an area of expertise. You do not play that long to be as productive as you were without understanding the nuances of that position. But I want to start go back to to high school because I'm always an amor from the scouting side of things of of guys that played multiple sports. I know you played other sports. How how did those other sports shape you and develop you and help you on the football field. Well, I think when you look at playing you know, basketball and baseball, and what those sports do for for you. In football, you talk about UH quickness, inline quickness, especially for a guy like me that's playing wide receiver, playing in the slot, just being able to move in spaces, UM and being able to uh you know when you're talking about learning how to work with other players and and and UH. For me, I love multi sport athletes. UM. And I think when you look at where today's high school and young sports are going, it's harder and harder to multi sports, and I think that hurts the kids. But for me, I think playing basketball and playing baseball, playing other sports really helped me uh in football, uh and be a better player, but also you know, learn how to be a better be a better teammate. I love that. I love that. And when you think about just a sport of baseball particularly, I've seen a lot of wide receivers have a little bit of a baseball background. Being able to track the ball, I would imagine that helps just basic hand eye coordination. It seems like an easy transfer. Absolutely. Um. I think when you when you do when you look at baseball, when you look at hitting, when you look at catching fly balls and all those things, just hand eye coordination, the more you do it, the better off you're gonna be. And I think, um, you know, doing and not just catching football's year round, doing other things to help your hand eye coordination, UM will will help you in whatever sports you're trying to do. But certainly when you're looking at catching a football and running routes, I think football basketball with with the quickness and and and being able to move side side to side laterally up and down the court. In baseball, just like you said, DJU, being able to track of hand eye coordination. Uh, you know, batting and hitting and and and and tracking the baseball from the pitcher's hands absolutely helps you. But if you had to just start with kind of the basics, the two or three core traits you believe you have to have in order to be successful at the National Football League level with the wide receiver position, what would they be. Well, you have to have quickness. Um, you have to be able to get off the jam and the press coverage. And if you can't do that, you're not gonna win in the NFL. These guys are too good. They're gonna get in your face, is gonna try to reroute you. So Uh, you have to be able to have quickness to get off the line of scrimmage. I think second, Um, you have to be able to get in and out of your brakes. Uh. To be a good route runner. And I think that's a little bit overlooked at the at the younger ages and in college. But when you get in the NFL, if you're not a good route runner, these defenses, these cornerbacks are too good. Um, they'll they'll, they'll cover you. Um. And I think the third is, you know, you need to have good hands, you need to be reliable. UM. And I don't think frontline. You know, speed is everything. I'd rather have a guy that's uh quick, that can get off the jam, that runs good routes, and that catches everything. And I think that's what you see a lot of these teams that are successful doing these days. Looking at the postseason, you look at how the game changes. Obviously, I think you played something like sixteen postseason games, so you know about playoff football. But the space disappears. You're looking more a lot more contact catches. I think you go back to the Super Bowl. Watch you know Brandon Cooks isn't able to haul in you know, a ball where he gets contacted down the field. You look at Alshon Jeffrey the year that the Eagles one. He's got contact catches. Obviously Edelman's famous one against the Falcons where he's able to pin the ball to his head and somehow come come down with it. But that overall strength be able to absorb contact and finish. Um, how do you go about developing that trade? And is that something you see as a key, especially with all your postseason experience. I think it's just reps and practice, um, you know, and doing different drills UM, and put putting receivers and putting yourself in different positions, and practice too in your individual work to you know, catch the football, take hits. Catch the football, take hits, whether it just be the padding that you hit the guy with, UM. And the other thing is just look concentration and focus really um because you can't you can't go out and practice and catch the football and get drilled every time. You can't work on it that way, especially in today's you know sports. But but I think when you talk about just just the want to and just focus, um, because you know you're gonna get hit and you've got to block that out of your mind and just focus on the football and and and so I think it's a concentration and focus but also just being able to block out the pain that's about to happen and focused on the football and know that you know, regardless of what's gonna happen, you're gonna get hit, so you might as well catch the football. It's somebody that obviously you're known for your hands. You caught everything, but also you had a little wiggle, a little something after the catch. What goes into making somebody successful after the catch? You're trying to evaluate these guys we are each and every year. What makes somebody special after the catch? I mean for me that really you know, I tried to get yards after the catch, but for me it was more like catching the football and then trying not to get killed because I knew my limitation. I wasn't gonna get it. I wasn't gonna have a fifty yard touched out and run very often. You had a little wigglestoke, you had some wiggle, you had something like yourself Like I had some good wiggle, But then when a guy touched me, I just like crumbled and fell so that I wasn't breaking many tackles. Um. Look, I think it's just you know, being an athlete, you know, and you see these guys younger younger age, and where the game has gone, and these seven on seven camps, and and how advanced the passing game has become at younger and younger ages, and and look, these kids are more and more athletic. They're training, um like you know, never before and so I think you get these guys the ball in space, especially when you look at at how many receivers are on the football field and you look at where the passing game is going, You're seeing a lot of these these running backs that used to be running backs play wide receiver and so um, you know, getting the football in their hands and watching what they can do after. I mean, that's that's what you see the game going to and what you see. A lot of success happened, especially um in the college game, and you see it's starting to uh kind of trickle into the NFL game. We always talk about building a basketball team with your wide receivers, getting guys with different skill sets. You play there with the Colts. I believe you guys, one year, all three of you with you, Regiatd, Marvin Harrison went over a thousand yards. I believe you had over ten touchdowns that year. But what were the different skill sets that you guys brought to the table that that kind of complimented the whole offense With Peyton there, well, Reggie was that tough, physical wide receiver, UM, and you know he was our our physical he was our forcer. Uh, if you needed somebody to run through a tackle, break a tackle. That was Reggie Wayne. UM Marvin Harrison. Look, he could just do it all. He wasn't gonna break tackles. But you talked about the quickness to get off the line of scrimmage, the acceleration, the attention to detail on the routes. Um, you couldn't press him. And both of those guys had unbelievable hands. But the thing that really separated them was their work ethic and and bringing it on the practice field Monday through Saturday and then it just transferred over to Sunday. But those guys had a unique skill set. We didn't have that big six six wide receiver UM, but but we had the tough wide receiver and Reggie Wayne. And we had the quick, fast, explosive guy, Marvin Harrison. And I was just kind of the compliment in between the two, like, okay, when they cover both of those guys up, Peyton was just like, all right, let me just find that little guy over the middle. Hopefully done. Screwed things up? Yeah, over a thousand yards and ten touchdowns plus, I think I think you did. Okay there, Uh, look at that chemistry you guys had with Peyton. What goes into that because we just see the finished product on the field on Sunday, but to be able to throw with the timing anticipation that Number eight team did all throughout his career. Give us a little peek behind the curtain of what went into developing that chemistry with your quarterback. It was work. It was work every single day, um. And I remember waking up because Thursday was our long days. That was our two minute drill, that was our third down. So for a guy like me, that was the long long days, and we would go two and a half hours and we would end that practice and I would wake up on Friday, and I was more more on Friday than I would be on Monday after a football game. So I mean we put in a lot of war and a lot of attention to detail, um, because you knew that obviously Peyton doesn't didn't like gray area, He didn't like any gray are He wanted to know, Okay, this is how you're gonna do it, so when it's third or fourth down, I know exactly where you're gonna be, um. And and so we just put the work in and and and it came obviously from Peyton Manning, but when he looked at when when I got there, and I saw the way that Marvin and Reggie worked and like, okay, well I have to work like these guys if I want to get on the football field. And if you don't work like that with Peyton, and he'll just find somebody else and another guy will step in and that guy will probably be really successful also that chance it visit Peyton a couple of years back. I remember him telling a story about how after practice he liked, instead of going through the whole route tree, which which for those who know, you're kind of running every single route that's in the book, he would take one guy one route and then just rep the same route over and over and over again. Was that what he was doing all the way back then? Oh yeah, oh yeah. Remember uh two thousand twelve of Payne's first year here in Denver, we were playing the Bears in our first preseason game and I ran a bad route and I drifted up the field on a five yard under route and drifted up the field. I thought nobody was there. Well, somebody was there, unfortunately, and it was intercepted and everybody was watching that game. That was Peyton Manning's return, and so he proceeded the next day at practice, um to make me run that route with him off to the side every time a special team's practice was going on, or after practice, anytime we had a little break, I had to run that five yard under that I've run probably a million times, and I knew my mistake and I knew what I did, and I was never gonna do it again. But I had to run that thing a thousand times during practice, so so not happen again. So that yeah, that's Peyton Manning, just the attention to detail the repetition, you know, making sure that everybody was on the same page. All right, brand I want to I want to test your memory a little bit here. We've talked a lot about those years you spent playing with Peyton Manning and Marvin and Reggie and those guys. I want to go back to the Baltimore Ravens where it started. I want to go back to the Super Bowl. Obviously, everybody knows about your touchdown and that one the first touchdown of that game. Uh, do you remember, I'm sure you can't forget this right. You remember the play call, the coverage and and did you know right away what did you do it right away? This was coming your way. I thought I had a good chance for it. I felt really prepared that game. We we I receiver coach Milt Jackson, the late great Milt Jackson. Um, we we were. We were going through different scenarios what they like to do, and we knew they liked to bracket the two inside guys, and so I saw the coverage. I knew what they were doing, and Milt told me, hey, you're not gonna be able to beat both of these guys. Pick all of them, and pick that outside guy and try to beat him. And then the quarterback if he throws it to you, he's gonna have to beat the other guy. Well, fortunately, uh for me, I had Channel Sharp on the other side of the football, and for some reason, not only did two guys cover Shandon Sharp, three guys cover SChannel Sharp. That that shows you what they thought about me. They're like, well, we're only good one three guys on Shannon Sharp. So I had it pretty easy and it was just one on one and the defensive back, uh, Sea Horn. I think he was expecting the help um that he never got. And you know, Trent made a great throw and so I didn't really have to do all that much. I just kind of ran my route and like I was getting double come, just like Milt had taught me. And Trent made a great throw right down the seam, and I was look, I was shocked. I was like, oh, no way, is this ball coming my way. I got a chance to catch it and and and and maybe score a touchdown. So I was just like, don't drop it, don't drop it, don't drop in that I caught it and I was right there. I mean I was a couple of yards away from the end zone and in no way I wasn't gonna get that end zone. But it was, you know, like a small kid from Lafayette, Louisiana catching a touchdown to the Super Bowl in my second year in the NFL. I mean, I was just, uh, you know, it was unbelievable just to be in that situation. Yeah, I know it's gonna go down in Super Bowl history. We'll see that play over and over and over again. Just curious, have you run into Seahorn since that game at all? Have not have not seen, have not seen Seahorn. I just tell him to jump on my back and I'd carry him for a few more yards if I saw last Yeah, he got hung out to dry on that plate. Yeah, no it was not he was not. He was not in a good spot. We'll we'll leave it at that and all apologies to to the Seahorn family. Uh. Last thing, Brandon, look as somebody that spent fifteen years in this league at the wide receiver position, UM for for a new cropp of rookies we have entering into the league, just simply, what would your advice to these guys be? Um? It would be pay attention to the details of small things. I think that's what separates you. UM, and put in the extra work, right, put in the extra work with a quarterback. And because if your quarterbacks your best friend, I mean Trent Dilford swears of this day that he saved my job going into my second year in the NFL. Uh that Brian Billick wanted to cut me and Trent went to him and they were talking about it. He said, no, uh, I want to I want that. I want him to stay around. I think you got something to him. So I don't know how true that story is that talk to turn about that, um, but that you want to be friends with that quarterback because he's got a lot of different options. And if you trust you and if he believes in you, then you know what, you're gonna have a chance to be successful. So I think just work ethic and just working on um, just the little things, the attention to detail, the route getting in and out of your break. Obviously, you know you want to be fast, you want to be explosive and all those things. But look, if you can't run routes and if you're not precise with your routes, uh, you're not gonna last, especially if you're trying to play in the NFL. Well, I think that is fantastic results to me, boil it down, talk about the details, get your extra work in there, and nothing's gonna trump your your work ethic, that's where it's got to start. And then you earn the trust your quarterback. You're in a pretty good place. That's a good good place to start right there, Man Brandon, I cannot thank you enough. Man, I sit here and talk about this forever with you. Uh. It's been a pleasure not only to watch you throughout your career, but to get to know you in your post playing career. You do a wonderful job in the media. UM, and we can't thank you enough for your time today. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it well. Block anytime you can talk to somebody who's played the position for fifteen years in the National Football League. Uh. The expertise that we were able to uh to get from Brandon Stokely there was outstanding. And I did chuck a little bit when he referred to himself as Peyton Mannings his little guy over the middle. Yeah, it's funny how he kind of became Peyton Mannings go to guy, one of his favorite targets in critical situations. His ability to work the middle of the field really put himself in a position where he could occupy a prominent role for years for Versticals and then the Denver Broncos. I just like when Brandon Stokey talked about the position and just being a skilled guy, a craftsman, being able to work on the craft and even if you do or don't have speed, being able to run rouse to create separation. That is a difference between good and great receivers at the level and look at it again points out the importance of having the basketball team. A conversation we're going to have with coach Billock about having different styles of receivers and guys that are big, guys that are quick, Um, guys that are inside guys versus outside guys. You have to have a collection there. Um. As much as it'd be fun to trot out a bunch of six ft five guys, buck to have somebody in the middle of the field. Uh, they can get in and out of a break, and get you some easy completions third and four, third and five. And you have yourself a guy like Edelman or somebody uh plays the game like Brandon Stokely. Did we see it with Adam Humphreys. Um, We've seen a lot of guys carve out a nice role for themselves in the slot. Cole Beasley is another one. So uh, it's uh, it's fascinating when you're scouting the position. It's not cookie cutter. You want a collection of different skills. Yeah, you absolutely want a collection to different school skills. If we think about in baseball, we talk about five two players guys that have the ability to do a variety of different things and they can fill in in a bunch of different roles. Speed, physicality, toughness, Uh, the ability to run after cast like we talked about, big play ability, meaning they can stretch the defense vertically or they can make plays on horizontal looks. And finally, reliability consistency being able to show up each and every week. And if you're the number one receiver, no matter who was opposite you, you find a way to deliver the goods when the goods are needed. That is what I'm looking to see, all right, buck Well, that was a fun conversation there with Brandon Stokely and Uh, if you listen closely, you heard him mention that Trent Dilford saved him because Brian Billick wanted to cut him true or faults We're about to find out. We're gonna jump into this receiver discussion today and they're gonna have some fun there. But right off the top, you need to clear something up because your guy Brandon Stokely, who we both love, came on and said that his time as a Raven was gonna be brief if not for Trent Dilford going to you, uh to lobby that he remained on the team. Now we need to know is this true or faults? Well, you know what here, you know Brandon Stokely is the smallest, slow white guy. So right from the get go, you're going, okay, you know where where's this guy gonna fit? But I will tell you what now, No, there's no point I was gonna let Brandon Stokely go. I'll tell you who his biggest advocate was, which will surprise you a little bit. Obviously, Trent as a quarterback recognized the value that you can have Steve Schaefer, who was our long time defensive backfield coach but in the league a long long time. Steve more so than anybody, and of course the dB coach and you see him in you know you're opposite him. You see all the receivers. Steve was the one that said, hey, guys, if we don't keep Brandon Stokely, it's a mistake because this guy can play. He's one of the hardest guy who's intelligent player the basketball and grass. He knew where to go. So that was probably his biggest proponent of all the coaches and players. Was the defensive backfield coach for the Ravens. Oh there you go, so we've got the true story there, uh, Coach. Of the things we talked about when you joined us a couple of years ago. UM, and and really it's got legs because we've continued to talk about a lot of other people have picked it up as well. When we look at the wide receiver position, you use the term trying to build a basketball team, guys with different skill sets, different sizes. UM. For those that haven't heard that explanation, can you explain to him? Yeah, just the fact that when you when you have a receiving corps, you're gonna you know, you're gonna have five or six guys that you carry in and varying uh, you know, varying areas. But I always you don't want all the same players. Like a basketball team. I need my big man, you know, I mean my off forward. I need that power forward. I need a point guard, but I need an off guard. Each brings a little something different for what you need. And anytime we were good offensively and had a good receiving corps, particularly with that ninety eight group that set all the records in Minnesota, we had a diversity in what we were able to do. Whatever you wanted to do coverage wise, we had an answer for you. We just talked talking, got done talking about a Brandon Lookley, a guy that you look at the share physical skills. You can go, Okay, if I put ten guys in the room, you're gonna kind of go, well, you know, there's gonna be other guys that are bigger, faster, strong or whatever. But he served a very specific purpose in that starting five. I've kind of put him in that off guard, you know, capacity to be able to fill in off that you know, a Chris Carter if he'd have been with me in Minnesota. You know that Yan and Yang that you have. Uh, you need that well rounded group and so you can't have all the same type of players. And speaking to that coach, one of the phrases we hear a lot and we we use it and scouting all the time. You talk about somebody can take the top off the defense, having a true speed guy. Uh, what what's the importance of having somebody that has that ability to be able to really stretch the field. What does that do for an offense? What does that do for you as a play caller? Well, just that it does just as the term indicates. It takes the top off the defense. It backs everybody up. It's one of those you know you best back up, because if you let this guy fly by you, and we have any number of guys that can do that, you know, it's a rare talent because it's one thing to fly by people, but can you catch it? You know, can you make the catch on top of it? So you not only have to be able to And what that does, It just loosens the defense. It loosens up the underneath zones or the underneath man. It allows you match ups because maybe you have to put two guys on that guy that can take the vertical and go over the top. So now I'm gonna get a one on one matchup. I know we're gonna talk a little later about I had the ultimate take the top off the defensive guy and randoms and what that did for a Chris Carter underneath, who you know as a Hall of Famer in his own right, but what that did for him in terms of matchups and what he could do underneath. So I go back to the basketball and grass mentality. If I have that dominant big man in the middle, or that dominant three point shooter, that guy that the defense has to adjust for schematically, it's gonna open up a whole lot of opportunities for others. And what's your definition coach of we use a phrase now one wide receiver in your opinion, what's the definition of a number one wide receiver? That guy that dictates what a defense has to do. Now, that number one guy could be just like we talked about, a guy with size or speed that can take the top off. It may be a guy that in the intermediate zones, like a Chris Carter that you just you can't You're not gonna win one on one. You're gonna have to brack it, or you're gonna have to play zone. And maybe a guy like Gronkowski that is just so physical in terms of the matchups and where you can get him the ball. So that that dominant one number one right now, And and we probably throw the term around too loosely, there's only a handful of guys that are truly that dominant number one right now. You know, Julio Jones is probably the most dominant number one that we have in the league right now in terms of everything that he can do. And a guy that you you know, if you go in, you better account for him on every single play. You can bracket him, you can roll over the top of him, you can jam. You better do something because you ever leave him one on one or unaccounted for, the quarterbacks gonna find him. Most difficult part of the transition. You know, a lot of times we see guys in colleges that don't see much press coverage, and that's one of the areas we we often focus on. But in your experience, haven't been around this position forever, coach, The most difficult part of that transition is what. Yeah, I think it's that physical aspect. Many times when you look and you bring players in the NFL, you say, okay, are they NFL ready? Are they position ready? Uh? Is there something? Can you know? Are they plug in play? And for a while you think, well, certainly a receiver falls into that category because you just have the physical skills of speed and hands and catching whatever. But compared to some other positions, I actually think it's one of the toughest transitions for just what you alluded to one the physicality of the game and the idea of what's open in the NFL. When you're in college football, you can create a window because the matchup from week to week, player two players side to side. You know, yeah, you they're number one corner may match up which you, but how does their two, three and four match up with you? If I'm in the college game, where in the NFL too, three and four? Pretty darn good. And so it's that kind of matchup creating the windows to be able to create the separation that a quarterback knows he can he can get the ball to you. Plus can he trust you? Can he you know a quarterback that relationship, particularly the young player. Can I trust him? Can I put the ball in a certain place that I know that's where it has to go to get completed? And is he gonna adapt to it? Is he gonna know? I think of a Ben Roethlisberger and the way he, you know, matures these young receivers that come into Pittsburgh year after year. Uh, he develops a trust with them and they realize, Okay, I gotta be where I need to be when I'm supposed to be there doing what I'm supposed to be doing. With a quarterback like a Ben Roethlisberger or an Aaron Rodgers or any of the great quarterbacks, if I'm going to be successful in this league. Well, you mentioned it there with with Ben Roethlisberger and some of the success. Now there's a little bit of friction there with Antonio Brown and Antonio Brown uh kind of the latest example where you can have uniqu personalities at the wide receiver position, which is gonna lead me uh to some of the guys you got a chance to coach. We're gonna talk about Randy Moss in just a little bit, but first of all to talk about Chris Carter. And I'm gonna tee up this little bite here of of Chris Carter and John Randall on Chris Carter's personality, because dealing with receivers and and uh and some of those big boisterous personalities is not something new. As you can hear right here. I hated playing team sports, and I really hated playing with other players that I had to depend on, and I really had to adjust my temperament to rely on them because it was all of us trying to win. I guess we would say he was pushing people to that to the limits, and it rubbed from the guy's wrong way. Hello, man, you gotta started making them fire like that start. I like playing being um uh not the favorite player on the team and all that. Oh, that's irrelevant to me. But was I honest? Was I fair? And did I do everything I promised to my teammates that I would do? Those are the things that you have to ask. Yeah, Chris, Chris, and everything you heard there, I think sums up what being a receiver in the National Football League, even with the diva moniker that they get, because the thing that distinguished it. And believe me, yeah, Chris was a handful. He was a handful of coach. Maybe one of my favorite players of all time. But you had you came to work every day ready to deal because one very very intelligent and he he he could see things. He had great street smarts. And if you if you stumbled around, if you weren't consistent, if you started to b s coach him a little bit. Uh, he was not shy about jumping in your grill going, hey, you're you're not helping me here, you're not coaching me here, You're of no use to me here. And he was right. Uh. The thing that that distinguished him from those that that think, Okay, maybe that's the way I want to be as receiver, Chris came every day in practice, in games, he came to work and as a you know when as a coach you responded to that professionalism, going okay, fair enough, I gotta be on my game and those around him need to be on their game because he's on his game and he works. If he's one of those guys that tried to skate by and not do the little things, then that's a little harder. And yeah, did he run some people the wrong way, sure, but they also recognize this guy is the real deal, and you're gonna put up with a lot when someone's willing to step up every time like that. It's interesting because you hear a lot about Antonio Brown and his work ethic in in the work that he put in a lot of these guys and I look, I don't know Antonio Brown that well, but you you kind of get a reputation personality wise, but from your experience coach, you deal with the personalities. It sounds like if these guys are putting in the work and the results come along with it. Sure, and with Chris and I imagined Antonio Brown is the same way. Um, you know, the diva receiver. I used to I like the term competitive um, aggressive, competitiveness, Okay, petitive, arrogance in that Chris Carter truly believed, get me the ball. If you want to win, if you want to score touchdowns, get me the ball. And I used to have on my game plan and that was a fair assertion because he would deliver. I used to have on my game plans when I was coordinating Minnesota a Carter box, which was as a game evolves, and he's going to get the ball. But if if the game is going in a certain way and you haven't been able to get the ball to him, it was okay, I gotta go to one of these because because I've got to keep Chris involved, not only from the standpoint, keep engaged. Uh And so he wasn't over in the sideline in my ear, you know, going after me. But but just from the standpoint, okay, we we Where can I get Chris the ball? Because it's usually gonna have a real positive effect, And the great ones dictate that for you in terms of how you've got to use them, and the quarterbacks recognize that as well. Now it is a balance, you know, you talk about Ben Roethlisberger and having to deal with that that genuine passion for give me the ball, because we want to win and I can win for us, but also the dictates of you know what, I got some other guys too, And as hard as it is for you to understand, maybe you're not open, okay, it's hard for a receiver some time to appreciate that. So it is a lot for the quarterback to have to juggle the two words I wrote down their competitiveness and then really too phrase than work ethic. I think when you have those as the foundation, I think then you can maybe see past some of those things. And I think that's a great example. I think of Michael Thomas with the Saints um whose Twitter handle is literally can't guard Mike, who was ultimately uh so competitive and and that drive is what drives his work ethic and we've seen the production that that follows it. So when we're looking at scouting process, coach, I think that's a box that competitiveness boxes. Maybe a little underrated there at the wide receiver position. Sure it is because and and no more so. You've got some great examples, and I think maybe as much with receiver as any other position on the team, where I don't know that we've had as many players impact the league that we're late round draft choices or free agents the way we do. You think of Adam Feeling in Minnesota. Uh, you think of Julian Elman in in in New England, where like we were talking about before, then when you you look at them and size them up and saying, well, okay, how do these talents size up with O Julio Jones or Randy Moss. I mean the evidence and you're going, well, this guy is bigger, and he's faster and stronger. How can he not be a better receiver? But you have some of these guys that have that competitives and they realize, I've got to find a niche. I'm not as big, as fast as strong, I can't jump as high, so I gotta find how do I offset that. Well, I'm gonna be smarter, I'm gonna be able to work my way open and know where the soft areas are of the zone. I'm gonna be competitive. I'm gonna develop that basketball and grass and and and find that niche that can offset the fact that I maybe don't have the physical skills of these other guys. And that's how you end up with the late round draft choices or the free agents. An Tonio Brown is a perfect example a guy that you know, again for any none of the reasons we make the mistake they're not big enough, they're not strong enough, they're not fast enough. But they find that combination of abilities to bring out that competitiveness and they bring it every single day, and and that's why the back end guys can be successful in this league. I think it's a great point. Coach Selfie, want to transition a little bit here and talk about Randy Moss. I think there's a debate. Uh, some people believe there's debate something to say, there isn't. It's always Jerry Rice and Randy Moss is the discussion. I don't think there's a debate though, that's for who the best wide receiver in the history NFL. I don't think there's a debate for who's the most talented wide receiver in the history of the NFL. And let's let you listen to this bite again. This is Chris Carter and John Randall on Randy Moss when he first joined the Vikings. I really wanted to put a mark on his memory that he would never ever forget as far as what it was gonna take to be great. After a few workouts, I called Dennis Green and told him that he is the most unbelievable athlete that I have ever seen. Most guys you just watching in practice. I always do the opposite. I go over there and talk to the guys who are going against it, And I asked those dbs, what do you think they were going there? Man, I'm not going to get him. That summed it up right there, Yeah, Randy, I I think you sized up very well DJ when you said, with all the respect to Jerry Rice, who is probably the greatest receiver of all time, I think Randy Moss is the greatest talent at receiver we've ever seen in this game. And I don't know that we'll ever see the likes of it again. Chris alluded to it there. I remember remember Randy Moss kind of felt to us. Uh. Danny Green came in the morning of the draft says, we're gonna get Randy Moss. Now we were picking it like one and I'm thinking, and Danny, who's one of the best personnel coaches I've ever known, God rest his soul. I thought, Danny that you're you you're you're you know you're you're off your game now, man, because there's no way Randy Moss gets us. I had done my work on Randy Moss, but not to the detail because I thought there's no way he gets twenty one or twenty two. Well, he gets past Dallas, he gets past twelve, and all of a sudden, there's a run here and I'm going, my god, Danny's right, we're gonna get Randy Moss. So now I really throw myself back into the film and I'm just getting jazz. Now this boy, we're gonna use it this way. Well, Chris called me about two weeks later, and Chris Carter used to have a workout camp down in Fort Lauderdale, and a lot of veterans, you know, a lot of players will go down there. Will certainly Randy goes down there. And and after a couple of weeks, after the first couple of days that Randy Moss there, Chris calls me says, Brian, you have no idea how good Randy Moss is like, oh, Chris, I know, look at the film. We're gonna do this. It's gonna be awesome because roll Brian, listen to me. You have no idea how good Randy Moss is and coming from a Chris Carter, that's pretty high praise. And and and obviously he delivered. I remember his breakout game because I'm always asked, Okay, what when did you know? Or when you know? What? What what time? During the season. There's a lot of Randy Moss stories, but the one it was a money night game in Green Bay. So it's Monday night, it's Minnesota and green Bay, so obviously it's a huge spotlight. And and Danny Green as my head coach, was the great head coach. He didn't interfere a lot. Danny was He knew what was going on. But Danny didn't bother you on the phones' much. But I remember we threw a gold route with you know, like a lot of teams were shot with Randy going Okay, now, we're not gonna let this rookie dictate to us. We're gonna put our guy. And he goes by him, and and he goes by he gets a touchdown, and Danny switched over. He goes, Brian, you do whatever you want, but I do a whole bunch more of that. So we get another one. He gets down the field. Now there are two, there are two guys on him and and he goes by one out jumps the other and he comes up with a touchdown. Well, now and we're in control of the game, we're near the end of the game. We throw another go to him down the field. Literally there are three guys on him and they're dre aped on him, and he goes up in the end zone and comes down, And that in itself was spectacular. But I will remember most is the three dbs looking back at the sideline, Mike Holmgren and I think Friz Shermer was the defensive coordinator and looking back and you could see it in their eyes. They were basically saying, what do you want us to do? Because the three of us can't do it? Okay, so you better think of something else because we can't stop this guy. That is incredible. Coach the uh uh. If you're looking at the game today and how it's changed, um from when you were there coaching those great offenses, um to where we are now. Um, what do you feel like maybe is more valued in today's game or can be more useful in today's game than what it was, say ten twenty years ago. Well, it's interesting you'd bring that up because you think about just you know, you're talking about two Hall of famers, and Randy Moss and Chris Carter. Can you imagine how lethal they would have been given today his rules. Now, Randy obviously more in the latter end of it, but Chris played in a time we talked about the transition into the physicality of the game, uh, and how that's a tough transition for a college player. And now given the rules and and for a lot of different reasons, whether it's the ability to jam or lack of ability to jam, um, the hitting of the defenseless receivers. For Chris Carter to know now if he were to play today knowing I could go into because Chris would go in knowing I'm gonna get lit up here, but I gotta do it because this is where I gotta go to get the ball, knowing he can go in and be protected the way he is today. Um, I think that's probably the biggest thing. Yeah, you always value speed and and and that ability to take the top off the defense. But given the rules today, the ability to be able to move the ball in the passing game, playing small ball, and no one does it better than New England Patriots and Tom Brady and he was when he had a Randy Moss and he had a gronk and he could do the things down the field. But where Brady, a Peyton Manning even and Aaron Rodgers are so brilliant is being able to play that small ball. They're starting five, they know they can dictate a certain coverage and they're gonna have that that off off guard, or they're gonna have that guy that can move around in a space that I know I can get the I know where the hole in the defense is and I'm going to throw it there because I've got a guy that also knows where that hole is and has the ability with that basketball on grass mentality. So certainly, always looking for the big receiver and the guy that can you know, man up down the field and out muscle. But I think the basketball on grass the ability to move in the underneath zones. Given the rules today, you you better have a couple of those guys on your team. Absolutely. Well, that is Ah, that is great wisdom from you today, Coach. I can't thank you enough. It's a it's a it's a game that's that the ball is going up in the air more and more each and every year. The wide receiver position. I don't know that it's ever been more important than it is today. Thanks for shotting some light on it for us. I love doing it, d J Alright, Black, this has been another learning experience here on the prototype series. Wrapping up these wide receivers. We're gonna get to who we believe as a prototype at the position. But I'm curious. I know you do. We got pages of notes once again, don't we? Oh man, We we do have pages of notes, like just to be able to learn from from the guys they were able to kind of share. I think coach Billy obviously does a great job of kind of detailing the wide receiver position, and we have all these side conversations where he talks about it. In fact, I remember him talking about the basketball team and having different guys to to carry on different roles. And so when we think about the prototypes and the guys they were talking to in terms of Stokely and Thomas Dimitrov, I think we gained a little more insight on what it takes to be a numb more receiver in the league and why so many guys are fascinated by finding the prototype. Yeah, it's a really kind of going back over the last thirty years we had UH represented in this in these conversations, so UH learned a lot during the access And again, if this is the first time you're checking out this series, go back and listen to the quarterback in the running back episodes. I think you'll enjoy those as well. All right, this is the moment of truth here. We need to come up with who we believe is the prototype at the position and buck we we see the game the same, but through this Prototype series, when we've tried to come up with who we believe as a prototype, we have not agreed at this point in time on who that prototype is. That changes right now. I don't know who you're gonna say, but I believe in my gut and in my heart that we're gonna have the same guy. Man, this is tough because normally I would offer the big, fast, physical athlete that can overwhelm you on the perimeter. But in my mind, I think the prototype is Odell Beckham June. And the reason the reason he's the prototype because look, he's fast, he's explosive, he's dynamic, he can take the top off the defense is a vertical thread. He can run away from people on horizontal drag routes. He has the ability to step up and make these highlight worthy catches and critical moments. To me, he is everything that you one and if you don't double team him on every play, he can hurt you. To me, that's what a dominant number one receiver is able to do. Yeah, look, he needs to stay healthy. I mean that would be the only knock really against Odell Beckham. And he gets out there for sixteen weeks or seventeen weeks, I should say, uh, representing sixteen games with the Cleveland Browns, the numbers are gonna be huge there with Baker Mayfield, It's uh. I can't argue that's not a bad choice. I would go with my choice though, and DeAndre Hopkins because with DeAndre Hopkins, I get a little more size and physicality. UM. I like guys on third down and in the red zone when everybody in the whole stadium knows where the football is going and you can't do a darn thing about it. And that's what DeAndre Hopkins has been throughout his career. Um, somebody, gosh, hundred fifteen catches over fifteen hundred yards eleven touchdowns last year. Buck he finally has a quarterback in Deshaun Watson. So you're gonna see these types of numbers each and every year. Um just knows how to do it, knows how to get it out of breaks, create that separation at the top of his route, catches everything, catch radius, uh, you name it. And that's why when I go on the on the scouting path and the fall in the spring trying to evaluate these players. To be honestly, I'm trying to find that next DeAndre Hopkins. I mean it's tough because DeAndre Hopkins is unique in terms of he's not a blazer. He's not a physically imposing guy. But yeah, when you watch him at the top of the route, he consistently gets separation. Some of that separation is due to the ball being in the air he finds a way to subtly push the defender out the way, but his hand, at coordination, his concentration, the overall ball skills, he consistently comes down with these spectacular plays. At some point, you have to give him credit because he's been able to do it with him without a franchise quarterback and you just don't see Gus sustain his kind of production without being a dude on the perimeter. Yeah, it's Look, there's a lot of good guys that choose from you know, you've got Tyreek Kill, the most explosive player in the NFL right now. Um, you know, Julio Jones, Mike Evans, Michael Thomas has been on a terror, Davante Adams I mean, and Tony we're talking about Antonio Brown. I mean, there are a lot of wide receivers in the NFL right now. Um, but man, it's uh, it's hard to argue with two. We've got two good ones there and Odell Beckham uh and DeAndre Hopkins. That's gonna do it for us today, Buck on the Wide Receiver episode. Again, if you've missed any of these episodes in the prototype series, I would encourage you to check it out because I feel like our goal in this series, Buck is, you know, some people were trying to educate the audience that we're we're selfish, we're trying to educate ourselves and and hopefully you're you're learning something along the way here. Yeah. Man, it's been it's been terrific. Like I just love what we're doing. I love how this series has kind of grown. I can't wait to see what we're able to do next and down the line. I know we're staying heavy on offense, but man, when we get to the defense of the ball should be Yeah, we've got some great guests. We've already h recorded a couple of those conversations. You guys are gonna enjoy it too, I promise, UH do us a favor. If you're just checking us out for the first time, subscribe to The Movie Sticks podcast. Rate us, review us. We do appreciate that. Plenty more content coming your way in the NFL seas is gonna be here before you know it, and that's when we really crank things up here on Move the Six. He's Bucky Brooks, I'm Daniel Jeremiah. Will catch you next time. Thanks for downloading Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. For more, go to NFL dot com Slash Podcasts