Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): We're programmed from when we were kids by our families and our value
Michael Abney: Yes, yes, yes.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): system, our community, right? We're programmed. My background is computer engineering, right? So I'm like, okay, what program are we running in here? The software. And that software gets installed with or without our permission, mostly without our permission. We get to be of age.
Michael Abney: Totally without our permission.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): we're in like teenage years, we start pushing back on some of that programming that we have received. And some of that programming sticks. We like we decide, yeah, I like that. I still agree with that. I will keep it. We pick up some new ones. And then we have some lingering ones that are just kind of still running the show, but we never actually actively address them.
Michael Abney: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Thirty Three Conversations Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Abney, and today I'm joined by Connie. Connie is the author of Story Habits, a fractional product officer, and a longtime product builder, and my favorite, a storyteller. Connie, welcome to Thirty Three Conversations. How are you doing today?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Excellent. Thanks for having me, Michael.
Michael Abney: It is my pleasure. I noticed that you spent so much of your time of your life building things that other people could see. Products, teams, roadmaps, companies, results. They were all evidence. And now
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Mm-hmm.
Michael Abney: you're building something that asks you to believe before the evidence arrives. I just share with you, I think so many of us are going through this exact pivot, different stories, And you're writing a book about the stories underneath the habits while actively questioning the story you've used to understand your own self and our own value. So I want to begin right
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: there. Where are you at inside of your own transformation Living on the edge.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah, living on the edge, definitely. My whole career has been working at a company, building things. I'm given a list, right? It's like being at school. You're given a list, hit the list, you get a score, and you feel good about that score. And when you get into a job, it's the same thing. Here's the list, do the list, and then you might get a promotion. You have these external validations throughout my entire life. And now I'm transitioning from that into being an author and to... being a creative and creating a system that it's completely unknown what the results will be. I mean, I see evidence as I work with people I see evidence but it's not the same as this external validation where it's a very clear checkpoint, you know, you know at least a quarter in advance sometimes several quarters in advance. What are your goals? And those are and of course the paycheck comes no matter what right? And so there are all these validations that are happening that for most of us for our entire lives, that's how we run. And to jump into the abyss of like, okay, now I have to set my own goals. And nobody's my boss. Nobody's telling me I have to show up and write this book. Nobody's telling me I have to publish on Substack every week. I give myself that goal. And then sometimes I'm trying to get ahead of like, I want to skew up like 30 posts ahead. And then I get stressed out and I'm like, why am I doing this to myself? Right. And I go lay out on the beach for a while and be like, Hey, what am I doing this for? Right. So there's a lot of self
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): questioning of why am I doing this? What is the gold star at the end of this? Is there a gold star? what is the point of this? It's not super clear because the external checklist and the external reward system isn't already there. And of course, society, people, companies have spent years figuring out what that scaffolding is. If we think of that as a system that helps people stay on track and motivated and moving to the next... step, right? It's actually a creation, it's an invention, like time is an invention or time tracking on a watch is an invention.
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): That is also an invention, right? Over time from industrialization that we have that invention. And now I'm kind of throwing myself into Okay, I got to do this for myself. I got to figure all that scaffolding. So it's like, okay, I publish weekly and what is the reward? Well, maybe it's people who sign up. Maybe it's conversations with you, Michael. Maybe it's the chance to have a conversation with podcasters. Maybe it's like my book coming out at the end of the year, right? That would definitely be a huge one, but there's all these little steps leading up to that major milestone. And I have to stay motivated every day to get to that milestone or even just committing to saying and telling my I'm publishing a book that's coming out in November. That was a huge step. like, am I committing myself to this? If I commit myself to it, what happens if I can't fail? I can't fail now. I have to publish, but I've never done
Michael Abney: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): this before. This is a completely new... area and I don't know what it
Michael Abney: Yeah. Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): takes. I don't know what you know hurdles I'll run into. Before I made this decision, I've actually been lurking on a author's list. I have a friend who's been an author. has a community and she allowed me. She is very gracious to allow me in because I'm more of a speaker. I've been doing speaking for a while but I haven't written a book yet. And so she's like, no, you're going to have a book coming out of you at some point. I'm going to invite you now and you can learn from what's going on. So I have been listening and learning from previous authors, all the methods they do, what they go through, what they need to do. So I have some idea of what the steps are, but to actually commit to something brand new, it is like jumping off the abyss. And so, you know, I no longer have all the gold stars that I'm used to, and it's really a huge identity shift, you know?
Michael Abney: I do.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Hahaha
Michael Abney: I wanna know what was the thing that caused you to make this shift and like was it subtle? Did it just was an epiphany one day? Like what how the hell? D what? Why? Share.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Necessity is the mother of all invention and of all pivots, to be honest, right? So
Michael Abney: Okay. Okay.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I was chief order officer at a health tech company. I left that. And after I left that, there was a moment when I wasn't in anything. And it was about seven years ago. It was a tricky market at the time for where I was because I came from a large company, big brand, went to a small company and then exit out of that. And I there's a couple of forces happening there at the same time. It was a it was a surprise to me that I exited. Right. So I didn't have anything lined up. wasn't like I'm jumping into something else. So then I have a moment of decision to make. Do I go search for the same thing again and jump into that? I had a friend who was working on she's a recruiter. And she's like, I have these clients. I want to refer to you. You can do some work with them. So that's force. Now, force number one was it wasn't voluntary. So I had a moment to figure out what to do next. Force two was my friend who said, hey, I can get you business that is outside the usual get a job scenario. Three is I am a multi-potential. I've always been a very entrepreneurial person. So even within the bounds of working in a job, I'm always like, what are these business models? What are these things I can do on the side? And so even if you look at my trajectory, I've worked at jobs. I went and did my and I had a company that I started and then in college I had a company that I started. Neither of those ended up sticking but I have this track record of wanting to start things, right? And so that, yeah,
Michael Abney: So the seed's been there for a while.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): the seed's been there for a while. It's kind of lurking, waiting to go and now I'm gonna have this moment and it's there. It's like, let's do something, let's do something, right? And so all these effects are coming together and so I started Oh, and then the fourth effect was I wanted to work remotely. This is before COVID. This is before the whole remote working thing was the thing. I'm like, you know what, what I really want in my life now that I have some financial stability, what I really want in my life, if I have to choose a money is in the problem is to have the flexibility. I can work from anywhere I want. can jump on a plane tomorrow and end up in I'm in the Caribbean right now. Right. So I can do that. I can, I can work from wherever there's an internet connection. I want. that life and I looked at all the jobs out there and you know when you when you quit a job you turn on all the filters and suddenly you're bombarded with all the JD's job descriptions and I looked at everything and nothing really sang to me right So that was happening. So those four effects were all happening at the same time at a time in my life when I'm starting to have some choices because I can support myself financially without having to do the same track. So I'm like, what is the choice that I want to make now? so I ended
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): up diverting from the main path at that moment. You wanted to jump in. Yes.
Michael Abney: Did you thank you for sharing what yeah. No, that was that was the I was curious if you while you were CEO and being in the C suite space, did you how did you did you still see yourself as an entrepreneur inside of the context of what you were working for another company? 'Cause it sounds like your mindset was always was entrepreneurial, even when you were. Is that true?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes, yes, yes. One descriptor that one of my early, early bosses gave me when I was still an intern. He's an awesome manager. And he's like, Connie, you're so resourceful. You just figure stuff out. I give you something, you kind of figure it out. Now, this was, I was working at a research center. So all PhDs, all like very by the book, if you will, kind of place. And he saw that in me. And I think that's part of why I don't like being put into a line, put it between lines rather. I don't want to just work within the lines. And that's part of why I love product management is because you actually in product management, you have to cross all the lines. That is the job is to cross all the lines because
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): everybody's in their own lane and you're the one going, okay, here's your job is to make sure everybody is running as fast in their own land as possible, also understanding what the other lanes are about. So go figure that out, right? And then you have to be resourceful when you go do that. So it's a good fit for me. But yeah, every time I'm in a situation, I end up crossing over lines. And so when I'm in a very large organization where staying in your lane is more important, where
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): people don't like when they're stepped on or their work is stepped on, and there's a little bit more lane following, I struggle in those scenarios. And when it's a smaller company,
Michael Abney: Yeah, I do too.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I've worked with smaller companies, that's great for me. So I think there's inherently a skill set that exists in me, a kind of an attitude that exists in me that is suitable for breaking out of that mold, because that mold never really fit me. But I'm a chameleon, so I can fit in that mold. I've been an immigrant. I grew up in two different languages. I've learned how to fit into molds. And I think my life leading up to that point was about fitting into molds. And I did really good job doing it. I went to get to C-suite with it. But. I think I was starting to have questions about do I want to make my own mold now? Because the main reason
Michael Abney: Yeah, I'm
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): meaning being I want to work remotely. I see people who have the life I want and I'm like, I want to be, I want to have that mold. And how do I get into that mold? Right? Because I don't like these molds I'm forced to fit into anymore.
Michael Abney: Yeah. And that that angst that kind of like gravitated you to the next level and I don't s I don't sense a lot of resistance in your energy. so it was it seems like this is pretty fluid about how you move, right? Like the surprise of, Hey, you're you don't work here anymore. Hey That's another data set for you to figure out, I still have all of this entrepreneurial magic in me and I wanna express that. you said you practice believing In yourself without the receipts. And I found that really interesting way to describe what it really takes to manifest something you are inside of a constant shifting perception. How did you go about starting your own system that supported you in this journey where you didn't even know where you were really going at the beginning of it, right? You just knew.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Right, I realize how messy it is. I hear other people's stories of transition and pivot, and it always sounds so clean. Like, I went here, and then suddenly I was here. This is a seven year
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): journey in the making. This is actually a seven year journey in the making. And I still get enticed when I get, you know, because I'm still on some lists. LinkedIn still sends me, here's a job description for
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): you know, VP of product for blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I go read it. It's a total waste of my time. Cause am I going to apply to it? Am I going to follow through? Like, no, it's actually a total waste of my time to actually read it. And when I say it out loud, I realized, okay, I should stop doing it. But, but that pull is still there seven years later. Right. And of course, along the way, it's not like I suddenly jumped away because I still, still got to eat, right? Still got to make a living in a way that I understand. So
Michael Abney: Mm? Yes.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): what I did was I deliberately split my time, I started a practice where I was consulting as a fractional chief product officer. So I was doing that, but under my own terms. I only look for companies that allowed me to work remotely, that allowed me to work within the mold that I want. I'm like designing a new mold for me now. And then on the other side, I started developing content. I was teaching a storytelling class for product managers. It's in my lane. It's strictly in the product management lane and so it made sense, right? And so I was teaching that, I was building some reputation around that. I had a framework for it for storytellers. I co-created that with an actor, like a professional actor to create that system. So great, was selling those classes and I was doing my chief product officer work at the same time. And that went great for a while. Then three years ago, three years ago, I created the story habits framework. This is a completely new lane now. Habit change. Like I was building tech, I'm a builder. Suddenly I'm like talking about habit change. We were like, why you have no credentials for that. You're not a psychologist. You did not come from that world. What, what is this? Which is completely
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): crazy. Like in my mind, it took me a long time to justify to myself that I can be a spokesperson for this because it just seems to make no sense. Right. But I did a workshop three years ago. part of an executive women's group where a lot of VP level C-suite women come together and we support each other in the next chapter of our lives, figuring out what we want to be
Michael Abney: Wow.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): known for, not just the logos that we represent because of the job that we're in, but what do we want to be actually known for? Right. And some people decide they want to start a nonprofit or support a cause. Some people decide they want to be a spokesperson for the role they're already in, but to, you know, get get up ads and represent their perspective on and become more visible. So there are different manifestations of what you want to be known for. And for me, it became this book. But that was like I was in that organization for a good three years before this idea came to being. And I ran a workshop there. just popped into my mind. It was a marriage of some work I did for behavior change. did do, I did do work in behavior change actually as a product person, cause I worked at a company to help people quit smoking. So I did that work and then I teach the storytelling remember for like, the last seven years of teaching that. And one day those two things, three years ago, those two things kind of
Michael Abney: Came together.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): bonded in my head and I said, you know what, if I look back, the people who quit smoking, who did not quit smoking successfully, they said, I want to quit. I feel like I should quit. should quit. Right? Those people never quit. And then the people who quit is the guy who said, I'm a father who wants to be there for his son's graduation. That person quit. And that's just a story change. I mean, there's a lot behind that story change that led them to that moment, but that is a different story that they walked into that behavior change with and it made all the difference. So I understood that suddenly and I started running workshops around how do you build, if you want to go from A to B from a habit perspective, how do you rewrite that story in a way that is foundational to you? not to someone else, the person who wants to be there for his son's graduation. That works because he's a father and he values family very highly and he values being there for someone very highly. Those are values that he holds. You can have the same parent. I have another person that I talked to actually he, his daughter told me the story cause I never met him, but his daughter, when I was telling, talking with her at an event, she said, yeah, my dad quit drinking. I'm like, how did he quit drinking? She's like, yeah, well, one day he like turned yellow and then he was yellow for like three weeks because of jaundice. You can get jaundice if you drink too much. And then all his friends were asking him, why are you yellow? Are you okay? Like they were all giving him a lot of attention. And after that he quit. He just quit cold turkey. He tried for years and years. tried, but he quit. He's a father. He could have said, I want to be there for my daughter. But that's not what he said. The narrative that worked him is vanity actually. for him is about,
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): wanna look good, I wanna be perceived well, I don't wanna look sick. I never wanna look sick again. That's what he cares about,
Michael Abney: that's profound you're like building a bridge I can't wait for you to share how this start to take up? What did you start to notice about your own habits there's juice there. How did this occur to you as as becoming what I think is very powerful?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): they study brains and they say when you're in your 40s your brain undergoes this transformation where it starts being able to crystallize. and make more connections between your experiences, right? And so I think that happened. That's why three years ago this came out almost fully formed. The only things that changed from the workshop three years ago is what I've been calling it. It went through some other names and now it's just straight story habits. That's it. But other than that, the idea of connecting your story, your values, your identity, the anchor, what I call the anchor, your values to that habit balloon.
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): And I used balloon because the idea is you can move it to different anchors and try it on to see what would actually stick for you. And that has been the same all along. And that's the crazy part is like when I started running this workshop with folks, I started seeing results. So this is different gold stars than my boss saying, good job, Connie, you've delivered yet another KPI. You know, this was real connection with real people in my lives where I helped them figure
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): out imposter syndrome. I helped them figure out how to say no to their boss in a kind and elegant way that is still helping them stay true to their values. Right? Some people are like, I want to be kind. I don't want to say no ever. And I'm like, no, no kindness is saying no to. And here are some situations where that happens and we talk through it and it unlocks something for them. So I started getting a new gold star source, if you will, of, I can do this work and it's meaningful for people. And it's not a paycheck at the end of the day. It's not, you know, you've checked off another box in KPI. It's not a bonus or a promotion that you're working towards, but it's, it's connection with folks is creativity. It's me learning about, I'm learning so much about how each of us run a program. We're programmed from when we were kids by our families and our value
Michael Abney: Yes, yes, yes.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): system, our community, right? We're programmed. My background is computer engineering, right? So I'm like, okay, what program are we running in here? The software. And that software gets installed with or without our permission, mostly without our permission. We get to be of age.
Michael Abney: Totally without our permission.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah, and we're in like teenage years, we start pushing back on some of that programming that we have received. And some of that programming sticks. We like we decide, yeah, I like that. I still agree with that. I will keep it. We pick up some new ones. And then we have some lingering ones that are just kind of still running the show, but we never actually actively address them. Right. So that that
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): is all in our heads. And it's fascinating to me because one of the programming that I have is productivity. and gold stars, right? I went through school in creative from industrialized industrialization age. And that's the system that I grew up in. And so therefore my brain for the longest time is looking for that external validation. I want that gold star. And now I'm like, OK, I'm refilling it with a different gold star system. I'm building connection with people. I'm creating something actually useful and brand new and creative. And this is my creative outlet. I get to see where this goes. There's interesting element of, I don't know where this is going to go. I don't know if this book will take off, but I know that each moment that I do a workshop with an individual or with a group, I'm getting results with folks. That's the gold star I am now soaking in and building
Michael Abney: you are focusing on the output or the outcome and the experience of it and what your experience is seeing somebody transform, like that's its own reward. You know, you're you're removing
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: the money out of it.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Right.
Michael Abney: You're removing the money out of it. Not to that you don't want to have money. It's just you remove it out of the equation of the product or the essence that you're are you know,
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Correct.
Michael Abney: it's your wisdom that you're sharing and helping open the door so other people can share theirs too, because when they get unstuck their life starts to unfold naturally and that's the beauty is to see somebody that you've worked with that is now thriving and doing all kinds of
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: stuff just because one little piece of the programming got rewired and makes it all connect and it's
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: electric again. So I love this I love how you're open and you're in this dance. But share with me like the story habits like where where is this going? What where Where are you at right now with it? And share with us about what it is and how you're helping people with it.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Sure. I made a commitment to get a book out by November. And so three years ago, I started giving this workshop. went to Grace Hopper. They invited me back again. So I gave a second workshop and I'm going back again this year. So I'm doing three, three, four, four years, like three times in a row, but like over the course of four years, I'm like giving this talk. And that gave me a lot of confidence. That tells me there's traction and there's interest. So because of that, I'm saying, you know what, I'm just gonna put this flag. on sand and say I'm going to do this, I'm going to write this book. that then triggers everything else that needs to happen, right? Okay, well, how am I going to build the audience? Who is going to want to read this? I need to build stories to put into the book, right? So I need to workshop with people and help them and tell those stories. already have 15 solid stories. I've done hundreds of these and 15 of them are like really catchy stories that I can use in the book, but I want more. So I'm writing a sub stack. I'm publishing week. I created a brand around this anchor, the balloon. I created this graphic that you have you can see behind me because I want the metaphor of a story that you're living. You know it's like the comic. I use the comic book analogy in terms of the aesthetic of the book. So I had to create a brand right and then I had to and now I just started a podcast where I bring guests on because I'm like I'm writing the story down. I have a conversation with people. I workshop with them and then I write the story down and becomes a written post. Well guess what? I learned along the way that some people just want to listen and not actually having to read. So I'm like well maybe I should just record the conversation and publish that. So
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm. You should. Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I started as a podcast as well so I'm also recording conversations that I have. So what I want to do is put examples out into the world. That's what matters to me. I'm like, who am I as a writer? Like every writer has their own style, you know, and it took me a while to get to this moment. Like I had that product management storytelling class. And by the way, I always thought that was the book I was going to write, but that book never, it never hit that gold star effect that this one did. Like I didn't, I didn't get as much of an epiphany in working with folks and I didn't have enough kind of, feedback loop. So when this one started having that feedback loop, could see it was super helpful to have done it because it let me see what actually, something that can sustain me looks like. So this one has enough feedback loop to sustain me. So I'm doing this book and I'm writing the Substack and I'm doing the interviews on the podcast and through all this work I have to keep my faith and that's new to me. I Michael like I'm not a religious person I never went to church. I did not grow up with religion in my in my family like we had Buddhism sort of in the community and the larger society, but it's not really part of my upbringing so having faith like just knowing that if I keep doing the work something good will come out the other end. I just have to keep coming back to that because yes, there's the micro gold stars of getting that boost from each conversation, but like long term, you don't know where it's going to go and it can go someplace completely new. Like it's fear of it complete. Like what if I wrote a book and it's crickets, right? There's that fear of completely tanking, but then the other can also be true where it goes and everybody wants to read it and it's amazing. And I think You know, in the past, me tends to do the scenario planning for the worst case of like, what if it goes downhill? But what if it goes uphill? And what does that look like? So I'm trying, I'm retraining my own habits to think that way. I'm retraining my brain, that narrative
Michael Abney: How are y how are you doing that?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): in my brain to be like, how am I doing that?
Michael Abney: Why are you doing that?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): It's the faith, right? It's me believing that. If I put in the work, something good will come out at the other end. And the good, the other thing is the good I think was more narrowly defined as there's a paycheck at the end. Great. Money is good, right? But
Michael Abney: Y yes, yes.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I, I, I've broadened the good to be more than
Michael Abney: But there's something that's shifted in human beings that we don't that There's not really an agreement in the in the planet right now that says, Yeah, go for your dreams, do your thing. It's still attached to the system, you still gotta pay rent, you still gotta eat, you still gotta do all these things that are inside of it. So no matter who we think we are, We still have to go through that experience. And that's what you're doing right now. And you you're presenting it in such a calm. cool and collective way. I I love it. Like there's no real drama to it. So I love that you're sharing this But there's this space where I people don't really get what starting a new habit really looks like from like the ground up. they don't really see how habits are are at the base of everything that we're doing. They think it's just that's the way it is. You know, you wake up, you get some coffee, you do whatever you do in the morning. If you're listening to this, look at your own life and start to notice the things that keep repeating every single day. And like, what are those? Those are habits. It it's all at the level of habit. Those habits produce the actions in our life that give us the results. Most people just try to change the results. And what you're doing is getting to the root level of how those results live in perpetuity in our life. And I think that's extraordinary because most people don't have that. So everything occurs random and you just kind of get resigned to the whole thing and then you go straight into surviving and that's what you
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: do. And that's the main program that we've all have in life is to survive it. But, you
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): So.
Michael Abney: know, the reality is life is really unsurvival. We all die. It's about what you do with that space and then it is unsurvivable. But that's that's how you
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I'm survival. I love it. I love it. I want to add to that.
Michael Abney: live. That's how you learn to live is getting that it's unsurvival. Like no shit, you you're li you would act totally
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes. Yes.
Michael Abney: different.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): You're gonna make some changes. Yes. For better or for worse.
Michael Abney: your last seven days would be d yeah, because the context shifted. Context is decisive
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): That's right.
Michael Abney: and new habits create that new context automatically. It's actually the way we're all doing it. It's just we're unaware of it and you're just shining a spotlight on it. But boy, when you combine a story with that, 'cause there's always a story about why something's working, why something's not working, that's why I've never really seen this combo in in the way that you're presenting it. I think it would be extraordinary if you would have a little session with me after the podcast. And so somebody listen to this that wants to go through an experience. Me and you will go through an experience of what this looks like to break it down. So if somebody's really wanting the digs, look for the content that's connected to this video. And that's where you'll find that we'll we'll create a little session after that to really dive in and just on this,
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Michael Abney: not based in the conversation that we're having today, because the conversation that we had today is extraordinary. I love it, it's opened up so many doors. so thank you for sharing this. And I get a real sense of like who you are and what you're creating in the world, and it's very powerful. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. And creating this amazing podcast. I can't believe it's already we're forty minutes into the podcast and I feel like it's we just got started. So maybe another conversation coming down the pike soon. But
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: before we go, I do want to ask you like your closing question. Is it okay to ask you that? Are you ready for that? For our guests. Okay. So
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Hit me, go.
Michael Abney: before we close, What would you give them to help be Curious about it instead of so critical about it.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah, don't blame yourself. First of all, the systems that you have right now in your, tools that you have right now, it's not a full picture, right? There's a lot of books written about habit change and a lot of books, they touch on the identity piece, but they don't focus on it. There's no system for that. They only talk about, Hey, put the shoes in front of your door for your 5 a.m. run. It's like, you do even want to get up at five. Like, let's talk about that first. Right. But nobody really talks about that. It's just like go do the doing part of the habit. And if you do the doing part, then it, will eventually absorb and become that person. And I don't think that's untrue, completely untrue because everything is probability. But I would say the probability of doing it that way is low unless you already have some belief, like the people who succeed already have some belief that they're a 5 a.m. person, right? And so they're doing that running. But if you're not a
Michael Abney: Yeah. Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): 5 a.m. person, and you're suddenly deciding I should be a 5 a.m. person, forget it. No, no, no, let's take a step back and talk about why do you want to be a 5 a.m. person? Is it
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): affecting your life in some way that you're not a 5 a.m. person? Like do you need to be a 5 a.m. person? Like is this an external reason to go do that? Or do you really have a fire in you that you said I want to be a 5 a.m. person and I will climb every mountain, every challenge that I will face because you will face a lot of challenges when you try to make a change. Unless you have that level of commit, unless you have that
Michael Abney: Yeah, you sure do. Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): level of commitment, like why, why bother? Right? Like if you say, I want to quit smoking. Why? Is your life not okay with it still there? Like what is that thing that's nagging your brain that says you need to make that change? And that can't be, I should do it. That has to be, I need to do it. It's a non-negotiable. I must do it because X. I must do it because my doctor said if I don't, I will die in two years. Right? It's that level of must. And hopefully it's not a doctor's note that you're getting. It's your own internal motivation so that you get to do it. that like examine that I would say that's, that's my, you know, takeaway for you is if you failed before your system is incomplete, don't blame yourself. Your system is just incomplete. And I want you to examine why you're making that change and be super clear about why you're committing to that change before you even put the shoes in the front before any of that. Once you have, committed and you know why if you fall off the horse you will get back on the horse then put the shoes there then do the other things that you need to do but before that don't don't even like give yourself three months to just think through like why and the answer can be I don't want to I'm not there's no reason I just I thought I should and maybe you don't and you go focus on something that will make a meaningful difference in your life
Michael Abney: Yeah. Thank you. That's just such an
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah.
Michael Abney: important part to put in is us. You know, like where are we coming from? What are we doing? Instead of just being that acting thing that's on the outside, it's really bringing it back home internally so we can like look at that. So this is a beautiful perspective. Thank you for sharing it and what you're doing with it in real life. It's got so many like crosshairs for what's happening right now on the planet and what we're I think we're all going through some level of it. So I know this would be beneficial to those that are listening If you're interested, look for that in another section we talked to before. Before we go, I just want to thank you so much for everything that you shared so far. It's incredible
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Thank you.
Michael Abney: and it's really clear. And it's giving me a new motivation to look at a couple of areas of that I've been wanting to create something new and it's not took taken off yet. It's because I'm not in action with it. And but there's something there that I've not seen or found my that center, that mojo that causes you to be inside of it in a new way. So I love it. Thank you for sharing. before we go, I just wanted to take a look and ask everybody to see that maybe the behavior was never really the whole story. Maybe beneath the thing that we've been trying to correct or make better in our life is us attempting to protect something. Maybe it's our safety, our sense of belonging, or our identity, that one that helped us survive. Change doesn't always come from force. In fact, it almost never does. Force always comes back on you. Sometimes it's always begins with something that's becoming a little bit more quiet enough to hear that the story that we've been living might need a rewrite. be honest with yourself enough to decide whether this still your journey to create. Maybe today is the day to begin a new conversation with yourself about that story and choose the one that you want to tell. There's no right way. It's just one conscious choice after the other. And we will see you all on the next one. Bye everyone.
Michael Abney: Yes, yes, yes.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): system, our community, right? We're programmed. My background is computer engineering, right? So I'm like, okay, what program are we running in here? The software. And that software gets installed with or without our permission, mostly without our permission. We get to be of age.
Michael Abney: Totally without our permission.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): we're in like teenage years, we start pushing back on some of that programming that we have received. And some of that programming sticks. We like we decide, yeah, I like that. I still agree with that. I will keep it. We pick up some new ones. And then we have some lingering ones that are just kind of still running the show, but we never actually actively address them.
Michael Abney: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Thirty Three Conversations Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Abney, and today I'm joined by Connie. Connie is the author of Story Habits, a fractional product officer, and a longtime product builder, and my favorite, a storyteller. Connie, welcome to Thirty Three Conversations. How are you doing today?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Excellent. Thanks for having me, Michael.
Michael Abney: It is my pleasure. I noticed that you spent so much of your time of your life building things that other people could see. Products, teams, roadmaps, companies, results. They were all evidence. And now
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Mm-hmm.
Michael Abney: you're building something that asks you to believe before the evidence arrives. I just share with you, I think so many of us are going through this exact pivot, different stories, And you're writing a book about the stories underneath the habits while actively questioning the story you've used to understand your own self and our own value. So I want to begin right
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: there. Where are you at inside of your own transformation Living on the edge.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah, living on the edge, definitely. My whole career has been working at a company, building things. I'm given a list, right? It's like being at school. You're given a list, hit the list, you get a score, and you feel good about that score. And when you get into a job, it's the same thing. Here's the list, do the list, and then you might get a promotion. You have these external validations throughout my entire life. And now I'm transitioning from that into being an author and to... being a creative and creating a system that it's completely unknown what the results will be. I mean, I see evidence as I work with people I see evidence but it's not the same as this external validation where it's a very clear checkpoint, you know, you know at least a quarter in advance sometimes several quarters in advance. What are your goals? And those are and of course the paycheck comes no matter what right? And so there are all these validations that are happening that for most of us for our entire lives, that's how we run. And to jump into the abyss of like, okay, now I have to set my own goals. And nobody's my boss. Nobody's telling me I have to show up and write this book. Nobody's telling me I have to publish on Substack every week. I give myself that goal. And then sometimes I'm trying to get ahead of like, I want to skew up like 30 posts ahead. And then I get stressed out and I'm like, why am I doing this to myself? Right. And I go lay out on the beach for a while and be like, Hey, what am I doing this for? Right. So there's a lot of self
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): questioning of why am I doing this? What is the gold star at the end of this? Is there a gold star? what is the point of this? It's not super clear because the external checklist and the external reward system isn't already there. And of course, society, people, companies have spent years figuring out what that scaffolding is. If we think of that as a system that helps people stay on track and motivated and moving to the next... step, right? It's actually a creation, it's an invention, like time is an invention or time tracking on a watch is an invention.
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): That is also an invention, right? Over time from industrialization that we have that invention. And now I'm kind of throwing myself into Okay, I got to do this for myself. I got to figure all that scaffolding. So it's like, okay, I publish weekly and what is the reward? Well, maybe it's people who sign up. Maybe it's conversations with you, Michael. Maybe it's the chance to have a conversation with podcasters. Maybe it's like my book coming out at the end of the year, right? That would definitely be a huge one, but there's all these little steps leading up to that major milestone. And I have to stay motivated every day to get to that milestone or even just committing to saying and telling my I'm publishing a book that's coming out in November. That was a huge step. like, am I committing myself to this? If I commit myself to it, what happens if I can't fail? I can't fail now. I have to publish, but I've never done
Michael Abney: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): this before. This is a completely new... area and I don't know what it
Michael Abney: Yeah. Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): takes. I don't know what you know hurdles I'll run into. Before I made this decision, I've actually been lurking on a author's list. I have a friend who's been an author. has a community and she allowed me. She is very gracious to allow me in because I'm more of a speaker. I've been doing speaking for a while but I haven't written a book yet. And so she's like, no, you're going to have a book coming out of you at some point. I'm going to invite you now and you can learn from what's going on. So I have been listening and learning from previous authors, all the methods they do, what they go through, what they need to do. So I have some idea of what the steps are, but to actually commit to something brand new, it is like jumping off the abyss. And so, you know, I no longer have all the gold stars that I'm used to, and it's really a huge identity shift, you know?
Michael Abney: I do.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Hahaha
Michael Abney: I wanna know what was the thing that caused you to make this shift and like was it subtle? Did it just was an epiphany one day? Like what how the hell? D what? Why? Share.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Necessity is the mother of all invention and of all pivots, to be honest, right? So
Michael Abney: Okay. Okay.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I was chief order officer at a health tech company. I left that. And after I left that, there was a moment when I wasn't in anything. And it was about seven years ago. It was a tricky market at the time for where I was because I came from a large company, big brand, went to a small company and then exit out of that. And I there's a couple of forces happening there at the same time. It was a it was a surprise to me that I exited. Right. So I didn't have anything lined up. wasn't like I'm jumping into something else. So then I have a moment of decision to make. Do I go search for the same thing again and jump into that? I had a friend who was working on she's a recruiter. And she's like, I have these clients. I want to refer to you. You can do some work with them. So that's force. Now, force number one was it wasn't voluntary. So I had a moment to figure out what to do next. Force two was my friend who said, hey, I can get you business that is outside the usual get a job scenario. Three is I am a multi-potential. I've always been a very entrepreneurial person. So even within the bounds of working in a job, I'm always like, what are these business models? What are these things I can do on the side? And so even if you look at my trajectory, I've worked at jobs. I went and did my and I had a company that I started and then in college I had a company that I started. Neither of those ended up sticking but I have this track record of wanting to start things, right? And so that, yeah,
Michael Abney: So the seed's been there for a while.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): the seed's been there for a while. It's kind of lurking, waiting to go and now I'm gonna have this moment and it's there. It's like, let's do something, let's do something, right? And so all these effects are coming together and so I started Oh, and then the fourth effect was I wanted to work remotely. This is before COVID. This is before the whole remote working thing was the thing. I'm like, you know what, what I really want in my life now that I have some financial stability, what I really want in my life, if I have to choose a money is in the problem is to have the flexibility. I can work from anywhere I want. can jump on a plane tomorrow and end up in I'm in the Caribbean right now. Right. So I can do that. I can, I can work from wherever there's an internet connection. I want. that life and I looked at all the jobs out there and you know when you when you quit a job you turn on all the filters and suddenly you're bombarded with all the JD's job descriptions and I looked at everything and nothing really sang to me right So that was happening. So those four effects were all happening at the same time at a time in my life when I'm starting to have some choices because I can support myself financially without having to do the same track. So I'm like, what is the choice that I want to make now? so I ended
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): up diverting from the main path at that moment. You wanted to jump in. Yes.
Michael Abney: Did you thank you for sharing what yeah. No, that was that was the I was curious if you while you were CEO and being in the C suite space, did you how did you did you still see yourself as an entrepreneur inside of the context of what you were working for another company? 'Cause it sounds like your mindset was always was entrepreneurial, even when you were. Is that true?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes, yes, yes. One descriptor that one of my early, early bosses gave me when I was still an intern. He's an awesome manager. And he's like, Connie, you're so resourceful. You just figure stuff out. I give you something, you kind of figure it out. Now, this was, I was working at a research center. So all PhDs, all like very by the book, if you will, kind of place. And he saw that in me. And I think that's part of why I don't like being put into a line, put it between lines rather. I don't want to just work within the lines. And that's part of why I love product management is because you actually in product management, you have to cross all the lines. That is the job is to cross all the lines because
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): everybody's in their own lane and you're the one going, okay, here's your job is to make sure everybody is running as fast in their own land as possible, also understanding what the other lanes are about. So go figure that out, right? And then you have to be resourceful when you go do that. So it's a good fit for me. But yeah, every time I'm in a situation, I end up crossing over lines. And so when I'm in a very large organization where staying in your lane is more important, where
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): people don't like when they're stepped on or their work is stepped on, and there's a little bit more lane following, I struggle in those scenarios. And when it's a smaller company,
Michael Abney: Yeah, I do too.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I've worked with smaller companies, that's great for me. So I think there's inherently a skill set that exists in me, a kind of an attitude that exists in me that is suitable for breaking out of that mold, because that mold never really fit me. But I'm a chameleon, so I can fit in that mold. I've been an immigrant. I grew up in two different languages. I've learned how to fit into molds. And I think my life leading up to that point was about fitting into molds. And I did really good job doing it. I went to get to C-suite with it. But. I think I was starting to have questions about do I want to make my own mold now? Because the main reason
Michael Abney: Yeah, I'm
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): meaning being I want to work remotely. I see people who have the life I want and I'm like, I want to be, I want to have that mold. And how do I get into that mold? Right? Because I don't like these molds I'm forced to fit into anymore.
Michael Abney: Yeah. And that that angst that kind of like gravitated you to the next level and I don't s I don't sense a lot of resistance in your energy. so it was it seems like this is pretty fluid about how you move, right? Like the surprise of, Hey, you're you don't work here anymore. Hey That's another data set for you to figure out, I still have all of this entrepreneurial magic in me and I wanna express that. you said you practice believing In yourself without the receipts. And I found that really interesting way to describe what it really takes to manifest something you are inside of a constant shifting perception. How did you go about starting your own system that supported you in this journey where you didn't even know where you were really going at the beginning of it, right? You just knew.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Right, I realize how messy it is. I hear other people's stories of transition and pivot, and it always sounds so clean. Like, I went here, and then suddenly I was here. This is a seven year
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): journey in the making. This is actually a seven year journey in the making. And I still get enticed when I get, you know, because I'm still on some lists. LinkedIn still sends me, here's a job description for
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): you know, VP of product for blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I go read it. It's a total waste of my time. Cause am I going to apply to it? Am I going to follow through? Like, no, it's actually a total waste of my time to actually read it. And when I say it out loud, I realized, okay, I should stop doing it. But, but that pull is still there seven years later. Right. And of course, along the way, it's not like I suddenly jumped away because I still, still got to eat, right? Still got to make a living in a way that I understand. So
Michael Abney: Mm? Yes.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): what I did was I deliberately split my time, I started a practice where I was consulting as a fractional chief product officer. So I was doing that, but under my own terms. I only look for companies that allowed me to work remotely, that allowed me to work within the mold that I want. I'm like designing a new mold for me now. And then on the other side, I started developing content. I was teaching a storytelling class for product managers. It's in my lane. It's strictly in the product management lane and so it made sense, right? And so I was teaching that, I was building some reputation around that. I had a framework for it for storytellers. I co-created that with an actor, like a professional actor to create that system. So great, was selling those classes and I was doing my chief product officer work at the same time. And that went great for a while. Then three years ago, three years ago, I created the story habits framework. This is a completely new lane now. Habit change. Like I was building tech, I'm a builder. Suddenly I'm like talking about habit change. We were like, why you have no credentials for that. You're not a psychologist. You did not come from that world. What, what is this? Which is completely
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): crazy. Like in my mind, it took me a long time to justify to myself that I can be a spokesperson for this because it just seems to make no sense. Right. But I did a workshop three years ago. part of an executive women's group where a lot of VP level C-suite women come together and we support each other in the next chapter of our lives, figuring out what we want to be
Michael Abney: Wow.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): known for, not just the logos that we represent because of the job that we're in, but what do we want to be actually known for? Right. And some people decide they want to start a nonprofit or support a cause. Some people decide they want to be a spokesperson for the role they're already in, but to, you know, get get up ads and represent their perspective on and become more visible. So there are different manifestations of what you want to be known for. And for me, it became this book. But that was like I was in that organization for a good three years before this idea came to being. And I ran a workshop there. just popped into my mind. It was a marriage of some work I did for behavior change. did do, I did do work in behavior change actually as a product person, cause I worked at a company to help people quit smoking. So I did that work and then I teach the storytelling remember for like, the last seven years of teaching that. And one day those two things, three years ago, those two things kind of
Michael Abney: Came together.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): bonded in my head and I said, you know what, if I look back, the people who quit smoking, who did not quit smoking successfully, they said, I want to quit. I feel like I should quit. should quit. Right? Those people never quit. And then the people who quit is the guy who said, I'm a father who wants to be there for his son's graduation. That person quit. And that's just a story change. I mean, there's a lot behind that story change that led them to that moment, but that is a different story that they walked into that behavior change with and it made all the difference. So I understood that suddenly and I started running workshops around how do you build, if you want to go from A to B from a habit perspective, how do you rewrite that story in a way that is foundational to you? not to someone else, the person who wants to be there for his son's graduation. That works because he's a father and he values family very highly and he values being there for someone very highly. Those are values that he holds. You can have the same parent. I have another person that I talked to actually he, his daughter told me the story cause I never met him, but his daughter, when I was telling, talking with her at an event, she said, yeah, my dad quit drinking. I'm like, how did he quit drinking? She's like, yeah, well, one day he like turned yellow and then he was yellow for like three weeks because of jaundice. You can get jaundice if you drink too much. And then all his friends were asking him, why are you yellow? Are you okay? Like they were all giving him a lot of attention. And after that he quit. He just quit cold turkey. He tried for years and years. tried, but he quit. He's a father. He could have said, I want to be there for my daughter. But that's not what he said. The narrative that worked him is vanity actually. for him is about,
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): wanna look good, I wanna be perceived well, I don't wanna look sick. I never wanna look sick again. That's what he cares about,
Michael Abney: that's profound you're like building a bridge I can't wait for you to share how this start to take up? What did you start to notice about your own habits there's juice there. How did this occur to you as as becoming what I think is very powerful?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): they study brains and they say when you're in your 40s your brain undergoes this transformation where it starts being able to crystallize. and make more connections between your experiences, right? And so I think that happened. That's why three years ago this came out almost fully formed. The only things that changed from the workshop three years ago is what I've been calling it. It went through some other names and now it's just straight story habits. That's it. But other than that, the idea of connecting your story, your values, your identity, the anchor, what I call the anchor, your values to that habit balloon.
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): And I used balloon because the idea is you can move it to different anchors and try it on to see what would actually stick for you. And that has been the same all along. And that's the crazy part is like when I started running this workshop with folks, I started seeing results. So this is different gold stars than my boss saying, good job, Connie, you've delivered yet another KPI. You know, this was real connection with real people in my lives where I helped them figure
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): out imposter syndrome. I helped them figure out how to say no to their boss in a kind and elegant way that is still helping them stay true to their values. Right? Some people are like, I want to be kind. I don't want to say no ever. And I'm like, no, no kindness is saying no to. And here are some situations where that happens and we talk through it and it unlocks something for them. So I started getting a new gold star source, if you will, of, I can do this work and it's meaningful for people. And it's not a paycheck at the end of the day. It's not, you know, you've checked off another box in KPI. It's not a bonus or a promotion that you're working towards, but it's, it's connection with folks is creativity. It's me learning about, I'm learning so much about how each of us run a program. We're programmed from when we were kids by our families and our value
Michael Abney: Yes, yes, yes.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): system, our community, right? We're programmed. My background is computer engineering, right? So I'm like, okay, what program are we running in here? The software. And that software gets installed with or without our permission, mostly without our permission. We get to be of age.
Michael Abney: Totally without our permission.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah, and we're in like teenage years, we start pushing back on some of that programming that we have received. And some of that programming sticks. We like we decide, yeah, I like that. I still agree with that. I will keep it. We pick up some new ones. And then we have some lingering ones that are just kind of still running the show, but we never actually actively address them. Right. So that that
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): is all in our heads. And it's fascinating to me because one of the programming that I have is productivity. and gold stars, right? I went through school in creative from industrialized industrialization age. And that's the system that I grew up in. And so therefore my brain for the longest time is looking for that external validation. I want that gold star. And now I'm like, OK, I'm refilling it with a different gold star system. I'm building connection with people. I'm creating something actually useful and brand new and creative. And this is my creative outlet. I get to see where this goes. There's interesting element of, I don't know where this is going to go. I don't know if this book will take off, but I know that each moment that I do a workshop with an individual or with a group, I'm getting results with folks. That's the gold star I am now soaking in and building
Michael Abney: you are focusing on the output or the outcome and the experience of it and what your experience is seeing somebody transform, like that's its own reward. You know, you're you're removing
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: the money out of it.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Right.
Michael Abney: You're removing the money out of it. Not to that you don't want to have money. It's just you remove it out of the equation of the product or the essence that you're are you know,
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Correct.
Michael Abney: it's your wisdom that you're sharing and helping open the door so other people can share theirs too, because when they get unstuck their life starts to unfold naturally and that's the beauty is to see somebody that you've worked with that is now thriving and doing all kinds of
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: stuff just because one little piece of the programming got rewired and makes it all connect and it's
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: electric again. So I love this I love how you're open and you're in this dance. But share with me like the story habits like where where is this going? What where Where are you at right now with it? And share with us about what it is and how you're helping people with it.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Sure. I made a commitment to get a book out by November. And so three years ago, I started giving this workshop. went to Grace Hopper. They invited me back again. So I gave a second workshop and I'm going back again this year. So I'm doing three, three, four, four years, like three times in a row, but like over the course of four years, I'm like giving this talk. And that gave me a lot of confidence. That tells me there's traction and there's interest. So because of that, I'm saying, you know what, I'm just gonna put this flag. on sand and say I'm going to do this, I'm going to write this book. that then triggers everything else that needs to happen, right? Okay, well, how am I going to build the audience? Who is going to want to read this? I need to build stories to put into the book, right? So I need to workshop with people and help them and tell those stories. already have 15 solid stories. I've done hundreds of these and 15 of them are like really catchy stories that I can use in the book, but I want more. So I'm writing a sub stack. I'm publishing week. I created a brand around this anchor, the balloon. I created this graphic that you have you can see behind me because I want the metaphor of a story that you're living. You know it's like the comic. I use the comic book analogy in terms of the aesthetic of the book. So I had to create a brand right and then I had to and now I just started a podcast where I bring guests on because I'm like I'm writing the story down. I have a conversation with people. I workshop with them and then I write the story down and becomes a written post. Well guess what? I learned along the way that some people just want to listen and not actually having to read. So I'm like well maybe I should just record the conversation and publish that. So
Michael Abney: Mm-hmm. You should. Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I started as a podcast as well so I'm also recording conversations that I have. So what I want to do is put examples out into the world. That's what matters to me. I'm like, who am I as a writer? Like every writer has their own style, you know, and it took me a while to get to this moment. Like I had that product management storytelling class. And by the way, I always thought that was the book I was going to write, but that book never, it never hit that gold star effect that this one did. Like I didn't, I didn't get as much of an epiphany in working with folks and I didn't have enough kind of, feedback loop. So when this one started having that feedback loop, could see it was super helpful to have done it because it let me see what actually, something that can sustain me looks like. So this one has enough feedback loop to sustain me. So I'm doing this book and I'm writing the Substack and I'm doing the interviews on the podcast and through all this work I have to keep my faith and that's new to me. I Michael like I'm not a religious person I never went to church. I did not grow up with religion in my in my family like we had Buddhism sort of in the community and the larger society, but it's not really part of my upbringing so having faith like just knowing that if I keep doing the work something good will come out the other end. I just have to keep coming back to that because yes, there's the micro gold stars of getting that boost from each conversation, but like long term, you don't know where it's going to go and it can go someplace completely new. Like it's fear of it complete. Like what if I wrote a book and it's crickets, right? There's that fear of completely tanking, but then the other can also be true where it goes and everybody wants to read it and it's amazing. And I think You know, in the past, me tends to do the scenario planning for the worst case of like, what if it goes downhill? But what if it goes uphill? And what does that look like? So I'm trying, I'm retraining my own habits to think that way. I'm retraining my brain, that narrative
Michael Abney: How are y how are you doing that?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): in my brain to be like, how am I doing that?
Michael Abney: Why are you doing that?
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): It's the faith, right? It's me believing that. If I put in the work, something good will come out at the other end. And the good, the other thing is the good I think was more narrowly defined as there's a paycheck at the end. Great. Money is good, right? But
Michael Abney: Y yes, yes.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I, I, I've broadened the good to be more than
Michael Abney: But there's something that's shifted in human beings that we don't that There's not really an agreement in the in the planet right now that says, Yeah, go for your dreams, do your thing. It's still attached to the system, you still gotta pay rent, you still gotta eat, you still gotta do all these things that are inside of it. So no matter who we think we are, We still have to go through that experience. And that's what you're doing right now. And you you're presenting it in such a calm. cool and collective way. I I love it. Like there's no real drama to it. So I love that you're sharing this But there's this space where I people don't really get what starting a new habit really looks like from like the ground up. they don't really see how habits are are at the base of everything that we're doing. They think it's just that's the way it is. You know, you wake up, you get some coffee, you do whatever you do in the morning. If you're listening to this, look at your own life and start to notice the things that keep repeating every single day. And like, what are those? Those are habits. It it's all at the level of habit. Those habits produce the actions in our life that give us the results. Most people just try to change the results. And what you're doing is getting to the root level of how those results live in perpetuity in our life. And I think that's extraordinary because most people don't have that. So everything occurs random and you just kind of get resigned to the whole thing and then you go straight into surviving and that's what you
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: do. And that's the main program that we've all have in life is to survive it. But, you
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): So.
Michael Abney: know, the reality is life is really unsurvival. We all die. It's about what you do with that space and then it is unsurvivable. But that's that's how you
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): I'm survival. I love it. I love it. I want to add to that.
Michael Abney: live. That's how you learn to live is getting that it's unsurvival. Like no shit, you you're li you would act totally
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes. Yes.
Michael Abney: different.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): You're gonna make some changes. Yes. For better or for worse.
Michael Abney: your last seven days would be d yeah, because the context shifted. Context is decisive
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): That's right.
Michael Abney: and new habits create that new context automatically. It's actually the way we're all doing it. It's just we're unaware of it and you're just shining a spotlight on it. But boy, when you combine a story with that, 'cause there's always a story about why something's working, why something's not working, that's why I've never really seen this combo in in the way that you're presenting it. I think it would be extraordinary if you would have a little session with me after the podcast. And so somebody listen to this that wants to go through an experience. Me and you will go through an experience of what this looks like to break it down. So if somebody's really wanting the digs, look for the content that's connected to this video. And that's where you'll find that we'll we'll create a little session after that to really dive in and just on this,
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Michael Abney: not based in the conversation that we're having today, because the conversation that we had today is extraordinary. I love it, it's opened up so many doors. so thank you for sharing this. And I get a real sense of like who you are and what you're creating in the world, and it's very powerful. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. And creating this amazing podcast. I can't believe it's already we're forty minutes into the podcast and I feel like it's we just got started. So maybe another conversation coming down the pike soon. But
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yes.
Michael Abney: before we go, I do want to ask you like your closing question. Is it okay to ask you that? Are you ready for that? For our guests. Okay. So
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Hit me, go.
Michael Abney: before we close, What would you give them to help be Curious about it instead of so critical about it.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah, don't blame yourself. First of all, the systems that you have right now in your, tools that you have right now, it's not a full picture, right? There's a lot of books written about habit change and a lot of books, they touch on the identity piece, but they don't focus on it. There's no system for that. They only talk about, Hey, put the shoes in front of your door for your 5 a.m. run. It's like, you do even want to get up at five. Like, let's talk about that first. Right. But nobody really talks about that. It's just like go do the doing part of the habit. And if you do the doing part, then it, will eventually absorb and become that person. And I don't think that's untrue, completely untrue because everything is probability. But I would say the probability of doing it that way is low unless you already have some belief, like the people who succeed already have some belief that they're a 5 a.m. person, right? And so they're doing that running. But if you're not a
Michael Abney: Yeah. Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): 5 a.m. person, and you're suddenly deciding I should be a 5 a.m. person, forget it. No, no, no, let's take a step back and talk about why do you want to be a 5 a.m. person? Is it
Michael Abney: Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): affecting your life in some way that you're not a 5 a.m. person? Like do you need to be a 5 a.m. person? Like is this an external reason to go do that? Or do you really have a fire in you that you said I want to be a 5 a.m. person and I will climb every mountain, every challenge that I will face because you will face a lot of challenges when you try to make a change. Unless you have that level of commit, unless you have that
Michael Abney: Yeah, you sure do. Yeah.
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): level of commitment, like why, why bother? Right? Like if you say, I want to quit smoking. Why? Is your life not okay with it still there? Like what is that thing that's nagging your brain that says you need to make that change? And that can't be, I should do it. That has to be, I need to do it. It's a non-negotiable. I must do it because X. I must do it because my doctor said if I don't, I will die in two years. Right? It's that level of must. And hopefully it's not a doctor's note that you're getting. It's your own internal motivation so that you get to do it. that like examine that I would say that's, that's my, you know, takeaway for you is if you failed before your system is incomplete, don't blame yourself. Your system is just incomplete. And I want you to examine why you're making that change and be super clear about why you're committing to that change before you even put the shoes in the front before any of that. Once you have, committed and you know why if you fall off the horse you will get back on the horse then put the shoes there then do the other things that you need to do but before that don't don't even like give yourself three months to just think through like why and the answer can be I don't want to I'm not there's no reason I just I thought I should and maybe you don't and you go focus on something that will make a meaningful difference in your life
Michael Abney: Yeah. Thank you. That's just such an
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Yeah.
Michael Abney: important part to put in is us. You know, like where are we coming from? What are we doing? Instead of just being that acting thing that's on the outside, it's really bringing it back home internally so we can like look at that. So this is a beautiful perspective. Thank you for sharing it and what you're doing with it in real life. It's got so many like crosshairs for what's happening right now on the planet and what we're I think we're all going through some level of it. So I know this would be beneficial to those that are listening If you're interested, look for that in another section we talked to before. Before we go, I just want to thank you so much for everything that you shared so far. It's incredible
Connie Kwan (STORYHabits): Thank you.
Michael Abney: and it's really clear. And it's giving me a new motivation to look at a couple of areas of that I've been wanting to create something new and it's not took taken off yet. It's because I'm not in action with it. And but there's something there that I've not seen or found my that center, that mojo that causes you to be inside of it in a new way. So I love it. Thank you for sharing. before we go, I just wanted to take a look and ask everybody to see that maybe the behavior was never really the whole story. Maybe beneath the thing that we've been trying to correct or make better in our life is us attempting to protect something. Maybe it's our safety, our sense of belonging, or our identity, that one that helped us survive. Change doesn't always come from force. In fact, it almost never does. Force always comes back on you. Sometimes it's always begins with something that's becoming a little bit more quiet enough to hear that the story that we've been living might need a rewrite. be honest with yourself enough to decide whether this still your journey to create. Maybe today is the day to begin a new conversation with yourself about that story and choose the one that you want to tell. There's no right way. It's just one conscious choice after the other. And we will see you all on the next one. Bye everyone.
