Improving Your Relationships - Buddhist Style | Martine Batchelor

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From ABC, this is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello,
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my fellow suffering beings.
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How we doing?
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Got a good show for you today. It's a great
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deep dharma episode. It's all about using an ancient, fascinating,
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and really readily accessible Buddhist concept as a way to
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improve your interactions with other members of Homo sapiens. The
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concept in question here is called Vedana or feeling tone.
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I'm going to leave.
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It to my guest to explain what Vedana is all
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about because she actually knows what she's talking about. Her
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name is Martine Batchelor. She's a former Buddhist nun. She
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was a nun in Korea for 10 years. She's now
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a lecturer, spiritual counselor, and author of such books as
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The Path of Compassion and Women in Korean Zen. This show,
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by the way, is a rerun, which we're doing a
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few times this summer in order to give the staff
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a bit of a breather.
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Shout out to the TPH staff. They're incredible.
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And also, of course, to resurface some of our older
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gems for our newer listeners.
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One final little note before we do that.
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This conversation includes some brief references to a few sensitive topics,
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including sexual activity and substance abuse. Just a little heads
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up there. Before we dive in, one exciting order of business.
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achieve a blissful state of attention and focus, and then
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Okay.
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Let's dive in now with Martine Batchelor. All right, Martine,
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thanks for doing this.
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Thank you for asking me.
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I think one of the things.
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We're going to focus on today is a way to
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work with our minds so that we can really become
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like individual vectors of positivity and helpfulness. So we're doing
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our little part to make a dent in the universe
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in this conversation.
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Indeed. Indeed. And to me, when the pandemic started, the
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COVID-19 started, actually four things came to mind. The first
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one was actually to see that the practice had really,
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in a way, prepared me for this, prepared me from
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this pandemic, like kind of bringing some stability, some ground, clarity.
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And that's what practice is about, to help us when
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we have difficulties. At the same time, I decided this
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is a pandemic and I am not going to stress
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about anything. My motto will be, why stress? Take your time.
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Take the time you can to do whatever is needed.
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Because if you stress, then you're going to be harmful
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to yourself, harmful to others. The third thing was to
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think that appreciation, mudita, rejoicing in all the people who
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helped us to survive and to see what was still working,
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what were people still doing. And also so grateful that
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all these people in a way endanger themselves for our survival.
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And the fourth thing I took as a practice was
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how can I change my relationship? How can we use
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this opportunity to really see the other and try to
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see the other differently and our relationship to the other
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differently because we so used to go on automatic. I
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have that relationship with this person. I have this history
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with this person and that's the way it is. And
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I thought, could we have a renewal in our relationship
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in this strange time? So I would say the pandemic,
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In a way, it's terrible. And at the same time,
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it can be an opportunity to really bring the practice
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to the situation. And of course, to help ourselves and
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of course, to help others.
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You said so much in there that's really.
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Deep.
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Let's pick up on the fourth of the pillars there,
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which is sort of using... this as an opportunity to
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practice improving our relationships. Does that bring us to this
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notion of feeling tones or Vedanas?
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Exactly. Exactly. Because I think we kind of nearly get
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habituated in relationship to perceive the other. And often to
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perceive the other, is this person giving me pleasant feeling
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tone or is this person giving me unpleasant feeling tone
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or is this person giving me neutral feeling tone and
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then thinking that the tonality is in the other person
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because we have the impression that it's other person who
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gives it to me and that's why I became very
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interested in mindfulness of feeling tone because what is it
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Mindfulness of feeling tone. Feeling tone, vedana, V-E-D-A-N-A, in the
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ancient Pali language, actually refers to the tonality upon contact
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through the senses. The simplest example is actually color, like
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wallpaper color. If we look around us, there is green, blue, red.
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And if we see green, ah, that gives us a
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certain tonality. If we see red, it gives us another tonality.
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If we see cream, it gives us another tonality. And
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so what is interesting is that colors, as far as
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I know, has not done anything to you. Green has
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not jumped at you. Red has not kind of given
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you a nice present. But why is it that we
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see green, red, or cream, or yellow, and suddenly it's like, ah,
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we feel something. So vedana tonality is when kind of
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you have contact, then immediately you have this tonality. And
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what is very important is to see that the tonality
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is conditioned by the perception. And so this is kind
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of like what's called the five omnipresent mental factor. You
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have contact, tonality, perception, intention, and attention. And so today
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we could look mainly at the first three, which is contact, tonality,
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and perception, because that's really where bias will come in,
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how perception and tonality really, in a way, influence each other.
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Let me see if I can restate some of that. Vedana,
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often referred to in English as feeling tone, The concept,
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as I understand it, is that if you look at
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the mind, we're constantly knowing various objects, taking insights, sounds, thoughts,
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physical sensations, et cetera, et cetera. And every time something
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arises in the mind, there are three ways to experience it.
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Is it pleasant? Is it unpleasant? Or is it neither? Meaning,
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is it neutral?
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And This can seem incredibly technical if you look at
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everything that's coming up in your mind because there's so
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much that comes up in the mind nanosecond to nanosecond.
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But it has profound ramifications for how we live because
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we act, if we're not mindful of the feeling tone
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of whatever we're experiencing, we just act it out. So
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we see green wallpaper. We don't like green. We yell
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at the painter or whoever painted the wall. So many
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ramifications come out of an unseen feeling tone. Is anything
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that I've just said accurate?
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You see, what is interesting is that the Buddha says
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in one text, there is 108 Vedanas. So actually, and
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he said the first two are mental or physical. And
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so we have to be careful to think that Vedana
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is just about the mind. Of course, it's about the mind,
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but actually it's also something we feel in the body.
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It's very strange that actually it affects kind of our
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whole body-mind complex. And sometimes it will be more mental.
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Sometimes it will be more physical actually. And at the
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same time, it qualifies, influences the affective tool, which then,
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of course, is going to lead us to react in
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various ways. So you could say you see something, you
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hear something, and then it's pleasant or unpleasant, as you
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pointed out. But then that generally gives us a feeling sensation,
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which becomes an emotion. which then can become a disturbing emotion.
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And so often what we do is that we became
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aware too late of actually the Vedana, when things have
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already gone overwhelming. And then we might act out in
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a harmful way to ourselves or to others. And so
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that's why, in a way, the idea with the mindfulness
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of feeling tone is to see it earlier and nearly
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to say, kind of, how does it feel? Because often
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we'll go into the meaning of it. Oh, this is unpleasant.
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The person is unpleasant. But actually it's unpleasant because within
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myself and in meeting the other person, something has happened.
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Maybe they said something. Maybe I did not do well.
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Often we assume. I think the first thing to be
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careful about is what I said before, that we assume
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that that the pleasantness, the unpleasantness, the neutral is in
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the object. Like, let's say, take mangoes. I like mango.
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And so I think mango by itself is pleasant. Then
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if somebody says to me, oh, I don't like mango,
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then I will tell them, but you've not had a
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good one. And then I might force them to try one.
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And then they say, okay, I'll try this one. And
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then they still say, I don't like it. Because the
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pleasantness is not in the mango, but it's in the person,
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in a way, liking it. So it's kind of like,
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and this can be, that's what is so interesting with
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the tonality, is that it's constructed, it's conditioned. It's not
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in the person or in the object, but it's how society, like,
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For example, it's like when I used to live in
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England and they used to eat rhubarb every spring, rhubarb pie.
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And I think rhubarb pie is terrible. Rhubarb is awful.
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It's so sour. And then I used to think, but
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what's the matter with them? Rhubarb is unpleasant. They like it.
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There must be something unpleasant about them. until I learned
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to like rubber. So the problem is not the thing
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kind of is pleasant and pleasant according to conditions. But
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we then stick things in the thing itself or in
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the person, which is, I think, much more dangerous than
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in the thing. Saying, you know, the person is always
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like this, the person is always like that. Or our
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society decrees these people are are pleasant people, are good people.
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These people are unpleasant people. They're bad people. But nobody
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is good and bad all the time. What are the conditions?
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Could the pernicious effects of being mindless of Vedana work
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in another way as well? If I experience an unpleasant
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feeling tone because of something you say, and then I
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falsely assume that everything about you is negative, impute some
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sort of essential unpleasantness to you, as opposed to seeing
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that it's happening in my mind based on the causes
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and conditions in my life. It could be like that,
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but couldn't it also just be something as simple as,
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I love my wife. I don't think she's essentially unpleasant
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in any way, but she might say something that rubs
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me the wrong way. It gives me an unpleasant feeling tone.
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And because I'm not seeing this unpleasant feeling tone arising
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in me, I then snap back at her and all
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of a sudden we're in a fight.
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Exactly. And this is a very good point. Because you see,
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what is also interesting in the text is that the
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Buddha talks about what happens with change. Like, it's very
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interesting to look at the changing nature of tonality and
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how we react to the changing nature of tonality. So
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would I first say there is underlying tendencies with tonality themselves?
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If it's pleasant, I want more. If it's unpleasant, I
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don't want it. If it's neutral, I'm confused. But then,
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as long as it's pleasant, it's pleasant. But once it stops.
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it.
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Can become unpleasant. As long as it's unpleasant, it's unpleasant.
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But when it stops, it can become pleasant. And with neutral,
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if you understand it, it can become pleasant. If you
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don't understand it, it can become unpleasant. So in a
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case with your wife, what is interesting is that at
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one level, there is this pleasant feeling told most of
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the time from her. So generally you feel comfortable because,
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oh yes, this is pleasant. But then she said something
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unpleasant and he's like, wait a minute. But you see,
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you might not see it straight away. So I'll just
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give an example why after that there is a strong reaction.
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Like I did something really pleasant and then I made
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a mistake. I misunderstood something and then it turned to unpleasant.
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But because there was an echo of the pleasant, then
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I did not see the unpleasant. And then I went
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upstairs in my flat. And then an hour later, I
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was saying something unpleasant to my husband who had not
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done anything. And I thought, wait a minute, what's going on?
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He's not done anything, but I am saying something unpleasant
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to him. And I realized he's just going upstairs because
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the pleasant stopped. It was replaced by the unpleasant. And
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then generally we spread it. So that's another thing that
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we do. We don't see it soon enough. And then
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because we feel unpleasant, then we have to share it
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to others. That's something we really easily do. But with
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the case with your wife, it was just a plain reaction.
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She says something unpleasant. I reply with something unpleasant. But
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what then is interesting If we become of mindfulness, of tonality,
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your wife says something and then you can stop and
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just observe. Oh, this is unpleasant. And then the question is,
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how long is this going to last? And to me,
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this is something I do a lot in meditation and
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daily life. Oh, I feel a different feeling tone. Okay.
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The tonality has changed. And then how long is this
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new tonality going to last? And then you have three levels.
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If you don't do anything with it, it actually passes. Once,
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some time ago, I was with my husband in a car.
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And we had difficulty kind of driving out of the
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parking lot. So we were a little tense. And then
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he says something unpleasant. And of course, my first reaction
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would be to say something unpleasant too. But then I thought, no,
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I feel a little unpleasant in the body, in the heart.
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How long is this going to last? So I just
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did not say anything back. And I just, we were thriving.
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We continued. And actually the tonality itself lasted only two
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red lights. And then it was really gone because I
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had not done anything with it. I had not said anything.
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This is me. This is mine. And I have to
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kind of like in a way react immediately because that's
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what the Buddha says. The underlying tendency to unpleasant is
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to push away or to attack. So in a way,
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we feel unpleasant. Either we go into this is terrible.
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This is terrible. This is awful. Poor me, poor me.
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Or we go into I am going to attack you
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because you attacked me. You hurt me. I'm going to
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hurt you back. And in a way, this is a beauty,
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one could say, of kind of when we protest, but
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in a peaceful way, peaceful kind of demonstration. It's like
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there is a lot of very difficult tonality. And then
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like Gandhi saying, I will be not causing harm. I
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will demonstrate. I will kind of stand firm for something.
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but I will not give back that anger. I will
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not give back that hatred. I will act more out
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of sense, of fairness, of justice. So that's what is
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interesting with unpleasant feeling tone. What do you do? I mean,
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once I heard I was at a peace conference and
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lots of great people talking about peace. Everybody was falling asleep.
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And then you have this fellow who comes on, a
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little guy, and he says, I am angry. He was
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one of my heroes. I am angry. And he was
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L'Abbé Pierre. And he was the first person long ago
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in the 1960s, who the first person who really did
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something about homelessness in France and even become member of
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parliament to do something about it. And so he had
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unpleasant feeling tone because he, Tonality is human. It's a function.
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It's a survival mechanism. It's an evolution mechanism to feel
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upon content. So it was unpleasant for him that people
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suffered and went homeless. So he was angry at it
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because it was unfair and it was harmful. And he
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went to do something about it. So, you know, he
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acted upon the unpleasant feeling tone, but in a creative way,
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in an insightful way. So the point is not that
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there is no tonality, but the point is, do we
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creatively engage with the tonality or are we overwhelmed by
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the tonality?
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So let's talk about how we can start to practice
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this in our own lives. I would imagine, you'll correct
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me if I'm wrong here, that the beginning of this
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process is to get really intimately familiar with with these
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feeling tones as they arise in meditation. So we use
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that as our gym so that we can then apply
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it out in the real world.
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Yes, indeed. Because, I mean, it took me a long
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time to understand, to really actually see the feeling tone.
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Because I became aware of mindfulness. I practiced it. And
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then somebody gave a talk about it. And I thought, yeah,
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feeling tone. And my first experience really was with cherries
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because I love cherries and the person talk about tonality,
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pleasant tonality. So I said, okay, I'm going to eat
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these cherries because I love cherries and then see what happens.
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So I eat the cherry. And then if you continue
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to chew, to chew, that change, the tonality change. So
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I think what we have to be aware is that
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it's easier in a way to see tonality in daily
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life because there will be more distinction. Well, if you
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sit in meditation, and that's why I could not find
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tonality for so many years, because what I was finding,
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I was like looking for it, and it was neutral.
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A lot of the time when we sit in meditation,
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the tonality will be fairly in the neutral range, we
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could say. Not much is happening. You just sit there.
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But then what you can do is it's in three
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different ways. If you pay attention to the breath and
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you pay attention to the air coming in the nostril,
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coming out of the nostril, what you can see there
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is just kind of like a little bit of change
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in air, a little cooler, a little warmer, and it's
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fairly neutral, the breath. But if you look at sensation,
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you have two ways of looking at sensation. You have
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sensation in terms of contact, so you can feel the breath,
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the clothes on the body, you can feel the hand
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on the legs, you can feel the buttock on the cushion.
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And again, that's fairly neutral. Or you can go into sensations.
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And then you might have a sensation in the knee,
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or you might have a sensation in the shoulders. And
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then there you start to see more, in a way, definition,
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you could say. The sensation could be a little relaxed
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and pleasant, or the sensation could be a little tight
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and unpleasant. Then the place you can really see the
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mindfulness of Vedana, I would say, is with the sound.
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So again, if you sit in a silent place, then again,
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it will be fairly neutral. But if you listen to sound,
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what I call listening to the music of life, then
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there it can become really interesting in terms of you
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hear a sound And generally immediately, I like this. Like
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if you hear a little bird, and it's very pleasant.
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But then what is interesting with that sound, so you
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hear the sound of the bird, then it stops. Does
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the tonality continues? Is there an echo? Or as soon
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as the sound stops, does the tonality goes? That's something
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we can really look into. Another thing is if you're
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sitting there and then you hear kind of like a
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mechanical sound, a loud mechanical sound, then generally it can
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feel unpleasant. And then if it continues, what happens to
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the tonality? Are you getting more and more upset about
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it or does it become a little neutralized? Or then
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you can play with perception. So you're kind of sitting
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in meditation, then you hear a mechanical noise, and then
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you realize, oh, they're repairing the pipe which burst. And
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then actually, although the sound could be a little unpleasant,
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it could become pleasant due to the change in perception. Oh,
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they're repairing the road. Great. The water is going to
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work better. So in a way, what is interesting is
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if there is not much happening, then you'll be more
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in the neutral. But personally, I think the neutral can
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be also interesting in terms of what is our relationship
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to neither. When nothing is going on, a lot of
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the time we'll think of it as boring. This is boring.
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I am boring. My life is boring. This is terrible.
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So actually, it's interesting. Nothing is going on. But we
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could have a strong reaction to nothing going on. Or
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you can have a different perception. Oh, nothing is going on. Ah,
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at least nothing bad is going on.
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Much more of my conversation with Martine Batchelor right after this.
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I want to go back to perception, because I think
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that ties back to something you said at the beginning
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of our chat, which is very technical from a meditation standpoint.
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But I just want to assure listeners, this can be technical,
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but it scales up to very practical in your life.
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So we're talking about technical meditation techniques that then scale
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up to ways that really have an impact on your
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mind as you go through life and on your relationships,
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which of course then continue to have knock on impacts
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on your mind. So you talked about Vedana, the feeling
400
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tone of things that come up while we're meditating. And
401
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then you talked about perception. And I think it all
402
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starts with something called contact. So I think you talked
403
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about this chain before of contact, Vedana, perception. Do I
404
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have that right?
405
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Yeah, actually, but what you have to be careful, as
406
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I talk about it, it seems to be linear. First contact,
407
00:27:51.460 --> 00:27:56.549
then tonality, then perception. Actually not. It all happened at once.
408
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So at the same time we have contact, we experience
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tonality and we experience perception. So in a way, you
410
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can be mindful of there was a contact because sometimes
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we don't know why we feel what we feel. And
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then you realize, oh, I heard somebody say that. You know,
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and I think this is what a lot of this
414
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is happening with microaggression. People don't get it. Like, you know,
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a lot of black people, people of color in America
416
00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:32.700
keep saying, but microaggression. And people say, white people say,
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but I don't see the point. It's so minor. But actually,
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every time, every day, six times a day, six times
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a year, you get this which nobody else gets. The
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white people don't get people making remarks. And each time
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you feel, oh. So I think first we have to see, oh,
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I don't feel this because I am like that. I
423
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feel this because again and again I get this contact.
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I feel it's very important. I'm not feeling this out
425
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of the blue because I see something that is not there. No, no, no,
426
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you see something there. you are in contact with, however tiny.
427
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I think that's one thing to really be aware of. Contact.
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Something happened. I heard something. I saw something. However small
429
00:29:19.769 --> 00:29:22.710
it was. And if it's big, then it's more obvious,
430
00:29:22.779 --> 00:29:26.299
of course. Then at the same time, it gives you
431
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a tonality. And again, if it's a small tonality, it
432
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might not be so obvious. If it's a bigger tonality,
433
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it will become more obvious. But we have an asymmetry.
434
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in the sense that it nearly takes us plus five pleasant,
435
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like if you have a kind of a scale of
436
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zero to 10 pleasant. For pleasant, it takes us five,
437
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plus five to say, oh yes, this is nice. And
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then Unpleasant, it takes you minus one, minus 0.5 for you. Ah,
439
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I don't want it. So actually, being mindful of tonality
440
00:30:06.890 --> 00:30:11.319
help us to increase the pleasant tonality, to be aware
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of zero to five, not just plus five. And then
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in term of unpleasant, again, it gives a greater range.
443
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Minus one is not minus five, is not minus 10.
444
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But if you get a lot of minus one, then
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they can agglomerate and then they become minus five, minus 10.
446
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So in a way, the tonality, we can see the range.
447
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That's what is interesting with tonality, the range of it.
448
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And then perception is kind of like shifted so much.
449
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Kind of, you know, if we see somebody and we
450
00:30:51.069 --> 00:30:53.789
accuse them of something and they said, I did not
451
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do it. Oh, okay. You did not do it. But
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if we take an over, that's what is interesting. If
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we take an over by they did this unpleasant thing,
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they tell us they did not do it, but we
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take an over by the unpleasant and we still think
456
00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:18.759
they're unpleasant and they did it. That's what is very problematic.
457
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Can we just say, oh, it's not there. And it goes.
458
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But often it's really kind of, it amplifies. Negative tonality
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00:31:29.740 --> 00:31:34.819
really amplifies, especially with perception because of our association. We
460
00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:38.200
associate it with pain of the past and pain of
461
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the future. Because that's also something in the text. The
462
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:46.000
Buddha talked about tonality from the past, tonality from the present,
463
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tonality from the future.
464
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That was all incredibly interesting. And just so that I
465
00:31:55.019 --> 00:32:00.059
make sure that I understand the terms correctly, contact in
466
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a technical meditative sense means just simply something has happened.
467
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Something has arisen in the mind. Vedana or tonality is
468
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the feeling tone is it's either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral.
469
00:32:12.950 --> 00:32:17.150
And the perception is just the mind's capacity to know
470
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what it is. You're flipping through the mind. I've heard
471
00:32:20.609 --> 00:32:23.529
it described, perception is like the mind is flipping through
472
00:32:23.589 --> 00:32:25.650
its past experiences to figure out, oh, yeah, that's a
473
00:32:25.829 --> 00:32:29.250
fire engine. That's the sound of a bird. So it
474
00:32:29.289 --> 00:32:31.549
is simply just knowing what something is. And we can
475
00:32:31.589 --> 00:32:36.579
be mindful of each of these as they happen in meditation,
476
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:38.859
which then, of course, has consequences for how we act
477
00:32:38.900 --> 00:32:39.339
in the world.
478
00:32:39.579 --> 00:32:40.519
Is all of that correct?
479
00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:43.420
Up to a point. Up to a point. Personally, I
480
00:32:43.819 --> 00:32:47.619
think due to possibly to your training, you seem to
481
00:32:47.660 --> 00:32:50.890
put a lot of emphasis on the mind. which is
482
00:32:50.990 --> 00:32:55.490
fair enough. But personally, I would say contact is not
483
00:32:55.549 --> 00:33:01.460
just about the mind. Contact is really about the whole organism.
484
00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:07.900
So the body-mind complex, being in contact, what we see,
485
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:11.450
what we hear, what we feel in the body, all
486
00:33:11.490 --> 00:33:13.809
of that. I think it's very important to see that
487
00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:18.269
actually it's quite body. The contact for me is very bodily.
488
00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:21.259
Of course, it includes the mind and the thought that
489
00:33:21.339 --> 00:33:24.960
arise in the mind. So personally for me, contact is
490
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:29.690
actually this organism in the world and how it is
491
00:33:29.849 --> 00:33:37.630
impacted by the world. Then the tonality, exactly what you said, perception,
492
00:33:37.750 --> 00:33:40.450
I would say, is a little more complicated than that
493
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:47.779
because perception is what you described is like basic. Mini making,
494
00:33:47.970 --> 00:33:51.940
mini making machine. Things make sense to me. So that's
495
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.539
just consciousness. But perception actually can be biased. To me,
496
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:02.680
perception is bias is how you perceive. So in a way,
497
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:06.579
it's not just conscious. Perception is like how you make
498
00:34:06.779 --> 00:34:09.860
sense of it. But how you make sense of it
499
00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:17.769
is going to be impacted in a way by your culture, socialization, education,
500
00:34:17.789 --> 00:34:22.090
things in your life, things that happen to you. So
501
00:34:22.150 --> 00:34:24.070
it's not just about kind of, in a way, being
502
00:34:24.170 --> 00:34:28.570
conscious of something, but it's kind of like the consciousness
503
00:34:29.369 --> 00:34:35.949
will be conditioned by, in a way, previous causes and
504
00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:40.289
big causes and small causes. So, but yes, that kind of,
505
00:34:40.730 --> 00:34:44.909
the description, but a little wider, I would say. And
506
00:34:44.929 --> 00:34:49.090
there is an interesting idea in Buddhism, which is equanimity.
507
00:34:50.090 --> 00:34:56.210
And often equanimity is seen as being equanimous, as being serene,
508
00:34:56.429 --> 00:34:59.670
as being calm. But actually one of the idea of
509
00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:06.530
equanimity is actually treating people equally. And I think this
510
00:35:06.590 --> 00:35:11.119
is a great challenge to treat people equally because we're
511
00:35:11.179 --> 00:35:14.900
not going to treat equally if people give us a
512
00:35:14.969 --> 00:35:19.409
different feeling too. I mean, your wife, if she doesn't
513
00:35:19.469 --> 00:35:23.389
say something unpleasant, she gives you a pleasant feeling too.
514
00:35:24.170 --> 00:35:30.360
But a stranger, you might think, hmm, neutral. Some person
515
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:35.780
you see on TV, you don't approve of, oh, immediately unpleasant.
516
00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:39.929
So in a way, often, we don't treat people equally
517
00:35:40.650 --> 00:35:44.550
because of the tonality they give us, or because of
518
00:35:44.590 --> 00:35:52.690
the tonality society decided that they have. So, I mean,
519
00:35:52.730 --> 00:35:56.269
it's something to do that personally, because somebody hurt me,
520
00:35:57.190 --> 00:36:00.800
then I'm going to kind of treat them differently. Fair enough.
521
00:36:02.260 --> 00:36:04.940
I mean, if somebody attacks you, and it's, of course,
522
00:36:05.019 --> 00:36:07.420
of course, you have to kind of, you know, not
523
00:36:07.539 --> 00:36:12.360
go back there, of course. But It's interesting society deciding
524
00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:16.940
a group of people must be treated differently because they
525
00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:21.699
like this, because they like that. That is interesting. In France,
526
00:36:22.780 --> 00:36:27.030
long ago, and it only stopped at the revolution, 1780,
527
00:36:27.030 --> 00:36:29.349
from the 1100 to 1780, you had a group of
528
00:36:29.369 --> 00:36:38.380
people who were untouchable in France. And to me, I
529
00:36:38.420 --> 00:36:43.460
only discovered this recently. So for 800 years, these people
530
00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:48.340
were discriminated against. They could not live in the town.
531
00:36:48.380 --> 00:36:51.079
They could not marry. They could not have family, et cetera,
532
00:36:51.099 --> 00:36:54.590
et cetera. They were really untouchable. And nobody know why,
533
00:36:54.650 --> 00:36:59.090
because it's so long ago, 1100. Maybe the, I don't know,
534
00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:04.190
the plague or whatever. And it's only a group of
535
00:37:04.250 --> 00:37:09.280
people decided that, For whatever reason, these people, we're going
536
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:12.820
to treat them differently. And as soon as you treat
537
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:17.519
a group of people differently, you do it on the
538
00:37:17.619 --> 00:37:23.719
function of tonality. It's tonality which these people are unpleasant.
539
00:37:24.210 --> 00:37:27.190
The whole group is unpleasant no matter what they do.
540
00:37:28.150 --> 00:37:32.070
Same with the untouchable in India. They're all impure. No
541
00:37:32.110 --> 00:37:35.570
matter what they do, they're all impure. So you're born
542
00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:38.289
and you're already impure and you already give an unpleasant
543
00:37:38.329 --> 00:37:42.630
feeling to the pure one. This is so strange. But
544
00:37:42.710 --> 00:37:51.260
society creates tonality within the population. And then, of course, Twitter, Facebook,
545
00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:55.400
all these places are going to reinforce the tonality, which
546
00:37:55.460 --> 00:37:58.659
I think is extremely dangerous because that's the way they work,
547
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:00.980
reinforcing tonalities.
548
00:38:04.289 --> 00:38:08.030
Say more about that. How does social media reinforce tonality?
549
00:38:08.269 --> 00:38:14.230
Well, because it's all about tonality. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok,
550
00:38:14.309 --> 00:38:18.420
whatever you have. I mean, they so understand tonality without
551
00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:22.519
doing it. It's so interesting. I mean, the advertisement industry
552
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:28.280
also totally understand tonality. So, I mean, Facebook, it's all
553
00:38:28.300 --> 00:38:32.460
about you like, you dislike. Instagram, you like, you dislike.
554
00:38:33.179 --> 00:38:36.469
I mean, it's just like, you know, what image gives
555
00:38:36.510 --> 00:38:39.989
you pleasant feeling tone, what image gives you unpleasant feeling tone.
556
00:38:41.449 --> 00:38:44.630
So that's why lots of people get a lot out
557
00:38:44.710 --> 00:38:48.639
of watching cat video. They come back home, they have
558
00:38:48.659 --> 00:38:52.280
an unpleasant feeling tone, you see a few lovely cats,
559
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.099
and you feel a pleasant feeling tone. So at that level,
560
00:38:57.159 --> 00:39:00.860
I think it's very good for people. But at the
561
00:39:00.940 --> 00:39:04.880
same time, if you want to reinforce unpleasant feeling tone,
562
00:39:05.239 --> 00:39:07.639
you say lots of nasty things about somebody who has
563
00:39:07.659 --> 00:39:11.119
not done anything. I mean, you have so many kind of,
564
00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:13.739
I don't know how you call it, the false fact.
565
00:39:14.780 --> 00:39:17.050
So that, you know, if you say enough bad thing
566
00:39:17.110 --> 00:39:20.789
about somebody, even if they don't do it, that it
567
00:39:20.829 --> 00:39:24.889
reinforces the unpleasant tonality in terms of the story. Because
568
00:39:24.949 --> 00:39:27.889
in order for you to make yourself feel better, you
569
00:39:27.929 --> 00:39:32.550
need to have somebody with unpleasant. I mean, if you
570
00:39:32.610 --> 00:39:37.619
are in any group, generally you have somebody where you're
571
00:39:37.659 --> 00:39:41.780
going to direct the unpleasantness to. I lived a long
572
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:46.840
time in community, and this is something I observed, that
573
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.489
time to time, one would have problem with one person.
574
00:39:50.969 --> 00:39:54.309
And then one would be like a radar looking for
575
00:39:54.809 --> 00:39:57.699
all the bad thing they did, not seeing the good
576
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.820
thing they did, but just the bad thing they did.
577
00:39:59.860 --> 00:40:02.260
So you look all the time for the bad thing
578
00:40:02.300 --> 00:40:04.840
they did. But when you had that problem with that
579
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:09.260
person looking for all the bad thing they did, you
580
00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:13.730
had no problem with anybody else because all your unpleasant
581
00:40:13.769 --> 00:40:18.369
tonality was fixated that way. And then when that went,
582
00:40:19.670 --> 00:40:24.289
because everything is impermanent, hopefully, then suddenly you had little
583
00:40:24.349 --> 00:40:28.090
things unpleasant with other people. And it was not just
584
00:40:28.150 --> 00:40:31.860
targeted to one person. And as a society, you can
585
00:40:31.909 --> 00:40:34.599
target it to a group. And so you have lots
586
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:39.500
of pleasant feeling tone heightened because everybody is saying, aren't
587
00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:42.340
we great? Aren't we great? They're so terrible over there.
588
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:46.500
Aren't we great? Aren't we great? And I think, unfortunately,
589
00:40:47.150 --> 00:40:50.409
Facebook and Twitter, they're really using that. People are really
590
00:40:51.309 --> 00:40:54.730
using it to in a way give unpleasant feeling tone
591
00:40:54.769 --> 00:40:58.349
about certain people and then pleasant feeling tone in term
592
00:40:58.389 --> 00:41:01.449
of group strategy in a way.
593
00:41:05.090 --> 00:41:07.739
Let me go back to the practical application here. So
594
00:41:08.110 --> 00:41:12.800
we've talked about how one can explore and see and
595
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:18.050
become more familiar with how feeling tones operate in the
596
00:41:18.130 --> 00:41:21.860
mind at a very micro level in meditation. And then
597
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.280
we've talked a lot about sort of scaling that up
598
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:28.480
to our day-to-day life. Can you say more about exactly
599
00:41:28.659 --> 00:41:34.239
how in our mind we can catch the feeling tones
600
00:41:34.300 --> 00:41:36.139
before we act on them blindly?
601
00:41:37.340 --> 00:41:40.340
Actually, I would say not so much in the mind,
602
00:41:41.090 --> 00:41:42.510
but actually in the body.
603
00:41:43.269 --> 00:41:45.369
For me, I think what I mean when I say
604
00:41:45.409 --> 00:41:48.389
the mind is All of it. In other words, that
605
00:41:48.809 --> 00:41:51.869
I don't think I mean just like thinking. I mean,
606
00:41:52.389 --> 00:41:54.050
when I say the mind, I think I mean the
607
00:41:54.070 --> 00:41:56.369
mind and body. But you can maybe tell me that
608
00:41:56.409 --> 00:41:57.300
I'm fooling myself.
609
00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:00.559
So what I mean in terms of practice, like let's
610
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:04.019
talk about practice and then how we scale it in
611
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:09.280
daily life. So in terms of practice, you sit in
612
00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:13.679
meditation and you do the same thing you do. But
613
00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:16.880
you try to become aware of, can I become aware
614
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:21.250
of the tonality of this contact? Contact with the breath,
615
00:42:21.750 --> 00:42:27.170
contact with the sensation, contact with the sound. And then
616
00:42:27.409 --> 00:42:30.829
you go out in daily life. So first you have
617
00:42:30.869 --> 00:42:36.099
to be aware of that quality of our experience. Oh yeah,
618
00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:39.460
there is a little difference. There is a little difference.
619
00:42:39.539 --> 00:42:44.219
What is interesting is to notice the difference In tonality,
620
00:42:44.260 --> 00:42:48.340
you could say, difference in mood. Then you go in
621
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:52.239
daily life. And in daily life, suddenly you feel, ah,
622
00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:57.260
it's like you have a little unpleasant tonality. I think
623
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:02.340
you notice the unpleasant more than the pleasant. But personally,
624
00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:05.030
I think it's a good practice to also be aware
625
00:43:05.070 --> 00:43:08.489
of the pleasant. But let's look at the unpleasant. So
626
00:43:09.090 --> 00:43:12.070
you're out about your day and you feel relatively fine.
627
00:43:13.130 --> 00:43:18.110
And then you suddenly, within often the heart area or
628
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:22.820
the belly area, you feel a little, hmm. And then generally,
629
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:27.139
we are perception, meaning-making machine. Why do I feel this?
630
00:43:27.380 --> 00:43:30.360
Is it sadness? Is it anger? Is it this? Is
631
00:43:30.420 --> 00:43:34.429
it that? And so in a way, here, unless somebody
632
00:43:34.469 --> 00:43:37.489
is attacking you and then you have to really creatively
633
00:43:37.570 --> 00:43:42.369
engage fast, not just say, oh. There is a little difference.
634
00:43:42.449 --> 00:43:46.889
I feel something. How does it feel? And then noticing
635
00:43:46.949 --> 00:43:51.610
what's the contact? Is it somebody, somebody said, is it
636
00:43:51.690 --> 00:43:54.719
something I saw? And so in a way to see
637
00:43:54.739 --> 00:43:57.820
the shift that I think first to be aware is
638
00:43:57.900 --> 00:44:01.139
a shift. Or when you see somebody, I mean, if
639
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.610
you want a good example in terms of being in
640
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:08.630
the street, I mean, so interesting. You go in the street,
641
00:44:09.230 --> 00:44:12.150
And basically, if you're a person who look at people,
642
00:44:12.909 --> 00:44:17.389
you see people and immediately, oh, I like that one.
643
00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:22.070
I don't like that one. I like their dress. I
644
00:44:22.139 --> 00:44:25.380
don't like their dress. So just to be aware that
645
00:44:25.539 --> 00:44:30.500
actually I look at different people and actually because of
646
00:44:30.539 --> 00:44:33.840
the perception, I'm going to have different tonality, even though
647
00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:36.980
I don't know them. This is what is interesting in
648
00:44:37.019 --> 00:44:41.800
terms of the strangers. You don't know them. And you
649
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:45.440
have that tonality. You hear somebody. I mean, you have
650
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:49.059
a beautiful voice. So people hear you. I like that.
651
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.780
But if somebody had a different voice, people might say,
652
00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:57.099
I don't like the voice. And because I don't like
653
00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:00.460
the voice, I'm not going to listen to them. I mean,
654
00:45:00.500 --> 00:45:05.420
this is interesting. What happened? What is it that make
655
00:45:05.539 --> 00:45:09.659
us in a way creatively engage or react? who makes
656
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:13.300
us kind of appreciate or make us dismiss or make
657
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:16.500
us push away. Of course, we have to be kind
658
00:45:16.539 --> 00:45:19.820
of aware of ourselves and kind of what is harmful,
659
00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:27.690
not harmful, but within that. Or an excellent place is, personally,
660
00:45:27.730 --> 00:45:30.869
I do a lot of meditation when I drive. You know,
661
00:45:30.889 --> 00:45:36.219
you drive, what's the tonality? Neutral, you think about something else.
662
00:45:36.780 --> 00:45:39.320
You're stuck in a traffic jam. What do you do?
663
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:43.000
What do you do? What's the tonality when you are
664
00:45:43.059 --> 00:45:45.699
stuck in a traffic jam? Let's say you are with
665
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:49.000
your wife and you are a traffic jam. Do you
666
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:53.159
keep pleasant feeling tone or because it's unpleasant, then suddenly
667
00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:56.989
you start to be unpleasant to the person next to you.
668
00:45:57.929 --> 00:46:01.789
What happens? How do I transmit it? The unpleasant or
669
00:46:01.809 --> 00:46:05.409
the pleasant? This is what is interesting that we can
670
00:46:05.469 --> 00:46:09.849
also act on the pleasant and we can make it conscious.
671
00:46:11.030 --> 00:46:13.650
Do I want to continue this to be unpleasant or
672
00:46:13.730 --> 00:46:17.420
can I shift it in some way? Or when you
673
00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:22.400
look at all the shops, I mean, the shop window,
674
00:46:22.539 --> 00:46:24.420
I mean, you know, you see something and it's like
675
00:46:24.820 --> 00:46:28.500
the fin is calling out to you. I want this.
676
00:46:29.389 --> 00:46:33.610
I don't know, iPhone 73 and a half. I want this.
677
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:37.079
Or if you're in Times Square, I love Times Square.
678
00:46:38.139 --> 00:46:40.280
When I am in New York, you have all these
679
00:46:40.420 --> 00:46:44.780
big things and, you know, they kind of like, everything
680
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:48.559
is done so that it creates a pleasant feeling. So
681
00:46:48.579 --> 00:46:52.659
you want it. And just to see that, I'm looking
682
00:46:52.739 --> 00:46:56.670
at this. What's my tonality in connection to that?
683
00:46:59.690 --> 00:47:04.300
So in this exploration that you described so well, Because
684
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:06.260
what I'm hearing you say is, you know, this is
685
00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:09.460
like an experiment you can run in your own mind
686
00:47:09.500 --> 00:47:13.940
and body. Let's go back to neutral, because I promised
687
00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:16.079
to talk about this earlier. I said I wanted to
688
00:47:16.139 --> 00:47:22.239
talk about this. I believe you've spoken about, and you
689
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:24.199
may have hit it a little bit in this interview,
690
00:47:24.699 --> 00:47:29.599
that we have a tendency to overlook the neutral, but
691
00:47:29.619 --> 00:47:32.699
there's a way actually to relate to it differently that can.
692
00:47:34.469 --> 00:47:38.619
We can make neutral a more positive experience and change
693
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:41.420
sort of our baseline for being in the world. Can
694
00:47:41.539 --> 00:47:42.639
you say more about that?
695
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:46.219
Yeah, to me, actually, I would look at, so there
696
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:49.280
is a big kind of like a little discussion in
697
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:53.389
terms of the Buddhist reference, if neutral exists or does
698
00:47:53.409 --> 00:47:55.610
not exist. But even at the time of the Buddha,
699
00:47:55.650 --> 00:47:58.309
they were discussing this. So I don't think we need
700
00:47:58.349 --> 00:48:00.690
to go there. But we could see it as a
701
00:48:00.809 --> 00:48:03.980
useful concept. And so for me, I can see it
702
00:48:04.099 --> 00:48:08.809
as a useful concept in two ways. One is we
703
00:48:08.869 --> 00:48:13.510
could see neutral more as a baseline. So in a way,
704
00:48:13.550 --> 00:48:17.090
we go up in pleasant, go down in unpleasant, and
705
00:48:17.110 --> 00:48:21.690
then we come back to the baseline of neutral. So
706
00:48:21.710 --> 00:48:24.619
that in a way, we cannot feel all the time unpleasant,
707
00:48:24.980 --> 00:48:27.980
all the time pleasant. But a lot of the time,
708
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:31.679
we're going to experience neutral because it's kind of like
709
00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:35.159
the way the system is resting. And it cannot all
710
00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:40.409
be excited or all be suffering in a way. So personally,
711
00:48:40.449 --> 00:48:44.010
I see it as a restful baseline for the organism.
712
00:48:44.989 --> 00:48:47.409
The second thing that can be useful in terms of
713
00:48:47.449 --> 00:48:51.949
the neutral is the fact that in a way, if
714
00:48:51.969 --> 00:48:55.510
you are, let's say, you're depressed and everything is really unpleasant,
715
00:48:56.760 --> 00:49:00.400
And you think, oh, I am like minus six unpleasant.
716
00:49:01.460 --> 00:49:05.679
And I need to go back to plus five pleasant.
717
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.130
Then it's going to be like seem an impossible task.
718
00:49:10.969 --> 00:49:13.929
But actually, you only have to go back to neutral.
719
00:49:14.829 --> 00:49:17.869
And that could be possible. So I think it's kind
720
00:49:17.889 --> 00:49:21.099
of a little bit because we have a stress. benchmark
721
00:49:21.139 --> 00:49:25.219
for pleasant as plus five. I think it's increased the
722
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:28.929
range of pleasant and give us more possibility in terms
723
00:49:28.949 --> 00:49:32.590
of unpleasant and pleasant, this neutral baseline.
724
00:49:33.030 --> 00:49:35.989
Just picking up on that, you can see why perhaps
725
00:49:36.070 --> 00:49:39.489
evolution would have created us to have a hair trigger
726
00:49:39.530 --> 00:49:43.869
reaction to the negative so that we survive, and to
727
00:49:43.929 --> 00:49:47.130
have a higher bar for the pleasant so that we're
728
00:49:47.170 --> 00:49:51.150
really motivated to look for food and other pleasant things
729
00:49:51.210 --> 00:49:52.610
that also help us survive.
730
00:49:53.070 --> 00:49:53.829
Does that make any sense?
731
00:49:53.909 --> 00:49:57.739
Oh, totally. No, no, I think tonality is evolution. This
732
00:49:57.820 --> 00:50:01.380
is the way you survive. Of course, of course, totally, totally.
733
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:05.360
And then with the neutral, so to see it more
734
00:50:05.380 --> 00:50:08.730
as a kind of a baseline, a resting place, But
735
00:50:08.789 --> 00:50:12.159
also to see that in the text, the Buddha saw
736
00:50:12.699 --> 00:50:17.059
that you could have ordinary tonality or you could have
737
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:22.320
what you could call insightful tonality, calm and clear tonality.
738
00:50:22.860 --> 00:50:26.000
And then the reaction to the two would be very different.
739
00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:30.280
So that in a way, if you had ordinary pleasant tonality,
740
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.989
you would go into, I want more, I want to
741
00:50:33.050 --> 00:50:37.260
repeat it. If you have ordinary unpleasant tonality, oh, I
742
00:50:37.300 --> 00:50:40.099
can't stand it, I hate it, and then you would
743
00:50:40.219 --> 00:50:44.639
amplify it that way. If it's neutral or you get confused,
744
00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:48.940
not knowing what to do. But if you have tonality
745
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:51.940
because you've done the mindfulness, which is more in a
746
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:57.239
way wise, like a tonality which is perceived, experienced in
747
00:50:57.300 --> 00:51:00.860
a wise way, then actually it would be what he
748
00:51:00.909 --> 00:51:04.489
called kind of something which would be more insightful. So
749
00:51:04.510 --> 00:51:08.670
he made the difference, like he equated a lot neutrality
750
00:51:08.730 --> 00:51:12.570
with equanimity. And so he basically says you can have
751
00:51:12.610 --> 00:51:16.130
an equanimity, which is about, I don't care. It doesn't
752
00:51:16.190 --> 00:51:21.489
bother me. Who cares? But for him, that's not true equanimity.
753
00:51:22.309 --> 00:51:26.219
And he says you can have like insightful equanimity. And
754
00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:30.739
actually he equated often with the luminous mind. So the
755
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:33.960
luminous mind doesn't mean that the mind behind is luminous.
756
00:51:34.690 --> 00:51:39.449
But when it becomes equanimous and insightful, it becomes luminous.
757
00:51:40.090 --> 00:51:44.489
And so it equates that when you experience tonality, if
758
00:51:44.570 --> 00:51:48.969
it's insightful, actually you're going to feel this, you could say,
759
00:51:49.070 --> 00:51:55.219
contented calm, contented clarity. So it has more to do
760
00:51:55.719 --> 00:52:00.719
in a way the neutrality as perceived as feeling grounded,
761
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:04.880
feeling stable, in a way feeling calm. Calm and clear.
762
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:08.940
I love this. It's a way, I mean, it's a really.
763
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:14.159
Fundamental practice for hacking our habits, sort of not being
764
00:52:14.199 --> 00:52:21.260
so controlled by automaticity. And it has so many ramifications for,
765
00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:24.030
you know, our own inner weather moment to moment. And then,
766
00:52:24.050 --> 00:52:26.570
of course, for how we are in the world and
767
00:52:26.610 --> 00:52:27.730
how we're treating other people.
768
00:52:28.730 --> 00:52:32.699
Personally, I would also connect it into ethics, right? Because
769
00:52:32.739 --> 00:52:35.260
in a way, if you look at ethics, if you look,
770
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:39.309
for example, at the five Buddhist precepts, the first one
771
00:52:39.449 --> 00:52:42.230
is do not kill. Or you could say do not
772
00:52:42.289 --> 00:52:47.070
cause harm. Why do we cause harm? Generally, we cause
773
00:52:47.150 --> 00:52:50.289
harm unless we are kind of a serial killer, which
774
00:52:50.349 --> 00:52:53.090
is something else, or sadistic, which is something else. But
775
00:52:53.150 --> 00:52:58.269
if we're an ordinary person, why do we harm? Often,
776
00:52:58.389 --> 00:53:02.869
like you said, with your wife, it's the same. unpleasant,
777
00:53:03.610 --> 00:53:08.630
then I'm going to retaliate, something is unpleasant, I'm going
778
00:53:08.690 --> 00:53:10.929
to get rid of it, I'm going to kill it.
779
00:53:12.110 --> 00:53:15.699
And so in a way, I mean, mosquitoes, you get
780
00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:19.000
the bite, you kill the mosquito immediately. So in a way,
781
00:53:19.059 --> 00:53:22.480
when something is unpleasant, we want to get rid of it.
782
00:53:23.739 --> 00:53:27.960
And so this first present is okay, how can I
783
00:53:28.039 --> 00:53:32.960
be harmless? which would mean how can I creatively engage
784
00:53:33.239 --> 00:53:38.659
with unpleasant tonality, especially given by the outside. But it's
785
00:53:38.699 --> 00:53:44.389
the same. You experience a very unpleasant tonality, and actually
786
00:53:44.469 --> 00:53:47.969
you're going to harm yourself. So, you know, it's kind
787
00:53:48.030 --> 00:53:51.369
of how can I experience unpleasant tonality, that it be
788
00:53:51.469 --> 00:53:56.840
inside or outside, in a way that I can creatively engage.
789
00:53:58.099 --> 00:54:02.659
And then the Second one is do not steal. Okay.
790
00:54:03.260 --> 00:54:05.500
Do not take what is not given. Why would we
791
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:10.070
take something? Because it gives us pleasant feeling to it.
792
00:54:10.090 --> 00:54:14.769
So we think, I want this. I want this for myself.
793
00:54:15.670 --> 00:54:18.349
So in a way, if we take something which is
794
00:54:18.389 --> 00:54:22.289
not given to us, it's generally because of a pleasant
795
00:54:22.349 --> 00:54:26.809
feeling to it. And then we could question, okay, This
796
00:54:26.869 --> 00:54:29.570
thing is going to give me pleasant feeling tone, but
797
00:54:29.610 --> 00:54:33.489
for how long? This is interesting. You know, we think, oh,
798
00:54:33.530 --> 00:54:37.590
if we get this, then I'll be happy. Then I'll
799
00:54:37.610 --> 00:54:40.610
have unpleasant feeling tone. And then you steal it or
800
00:54:41.030 --> 00:54:44.489
you take advantage of somebody to get it. But how
801
00:54:44.530 --> 00:54:48.179
long does it last? You know, and nothing, I mean,
802
00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:51.860
that's what the Buddha said. Nothing can give you permanent satisfaction.
803
00:54:52.900 --> 00:54:58.019
But we could learn to be contented. contented possibly by
804
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:01.420
a more simple life, so that we don't feel that
805
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:04.780
we have to acquire things all the time, so that
806
00:55:04.820 --> 00:55:08.059
we have to ratchet up the pleasant feeling tone. I
807
00:55:08.099 --> 00:55:10.739
think that's the thing about that one. Then you have
808
00:55:10.780 --> 00:55:14.130
the third one, to be careful with our sexuality. And
809
00:55:14.190 --> 00:55:18.550
it's the same. Often with sexual pleasure, you kind of
810
00:55:19.010 --> 00:55:21.750
get lost in your own pleasure and don't think about
811
00:55:21.769 --> 00:55:26.119
the other person. It might sometimes harm them. So can
812
00:55:26.139 --> 00:55:29.320
you think about your own pleasure without being lost in it,
813
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:34.059
without taking advantage, but also thinking about the other person's
814
00:55:34.099 --> 00:55:38.340
pleasure and also accepting it will not last. It will
815
00:55:38.380 --> 00:55:43.849
not last. Then you have lying. Lying is interesting. Why
816
00:55:43.909 --> 00:55:49.469
would we lie? Either you lie because of the unpleasant
817
00:55:49.510 --> 00:55:53.530
feeling too. I can think about children. They break something.
818
00:55:53.949 --> 00:55:56.239
You have the vials broken. And they say, I did
819
00:55:56.260 --> 00:55:58.260
not do it. I did not do it. So in
820
00:55:58.340 --> 00:56:02.179
a way, you have an unpleasant feeling told. And then
821
00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:08.269
you try to lie so that it goes. Or you
822
00:56:08.849 --> 00:56:12.889
lie because it's pleasant. Some people like to lie because
823
00:56:13.489 --> 00:56:16.369
it gives us a pleasant personality. Oh, I did this.
824
00:56:16.469 --> 00:56:19.260
I did that. When they know none of it. It's
825
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:24.130
interesting lying. What's behind it? Sometimes it's because it's unpleasant.
826
00:56:24.190 --> 00:56:29.909
Sometimes because it's pleasant for the person to laugh. And
827
00:56:29.949 --> 00:56:35.650
then the fifth one, alcohol and drugs. Again, why do
828
00:56:35.690 --> 00:56:40.460
we take this thing? Often because it's pleasant, but a
829
00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:45.800
lot of the time because we have unpleasant feelings too. Recently,
830
00:56:45.860 --> 00:56:48.900
I read about a young woman who fell in love
831
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:53.679
with alcohol when she was 15. Because her first glass
832
00:56:53.760 --> 00:57:03.449
of strong liquor gave her this amazing tonality. She felt lively, intelligent, fun. Before,
833
00:57:03.469 --> 00:57:06.510
she was very shy and anxious. And so she fell
834
00:57:06.550 --> 00:57:10.949
in love, she said, with alcohol. And then she drank
835
00:57:11.030 --> 00:57:14.099
and drank and drank, but still had her life. And
836
00:57:14.139 --> 00:57:17.960
then age 30, she had to stop because she used
837
00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:22.829
to have terrible blackouts. But she said she still fell
838
00:57:22.889 --> 00:57:26.050
in love. In fact, she had such pleasant feeling tone
839
00:57:26.090 --> 00:57:28.190
at the beginning. And she was kind of in a
840
00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:33.260
way umpteen the same thing. But why? Because it replaced
841
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:38.579
unpleasant tonality. Or because the thing gives you pleasant tonality,
842
00:57:38.619 --> 00:57:41.760
but then it could be harmful to others. In a way,
843
00:57:41.800 --> 00:57:44.630
most of the time, we are good, decent human beings.
844
00:57:45.670 --> 00:57:49.960
But then time to time, we're not. And then that's
845
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:54.179
what I'm interested in. Why that? What happened? And a
846
00:57:54.280 --> 00:57:56.809
lot of the time it has to do with tonality.
847
00:57:59.590 --> 00:58:01.130
Let me ask you a question that may seem like
848
00:58:01.170 --> 00:58:04.769
a non sequitur. It may also seem like a gigantic question,
849
00:58:04.869 --> 00:58:08.630
but I'm curious to hear you talk about a question
850
00:58:08.670 --> 00:58:14.869
I've heard you pose publicly before, which is what is love?
851
00:58:16.699 --> 00:58:20.519
What is love? That's so interesting. What is love? Because
852
00:58:20.599 --> 00:58:24.860
at one level, love is a pleasant tonality. And actually
853
00:58:24.889 --> 00:58:30.050
the Buddha said pleasant tonality is very important, especially if
854
00:58:30.150 --> 00:58:34.269
it's insightful and wise and compassionate. And so what is
855
00:58:34.349 --> 00:58:37.130
interesting again with love, I think love is an important
856
00:58:37.190 --> 00:58:41.550
quality and it's so vital to love, that it be
857
00:58:41.590 --> 00:58:47.050
your partner, your children, animals, the earth, the planet, people.
858
00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:54.010
Because it gives us very healing tonality. But then the
859
00:58:54.070 --> 00:58:57.289
question is, what do we grasp at when we love?
860
00:58:57.969 --> 00:59:01.530
Do we grasp at the pleasant tonality we get when
861
00:59:01.590 --> 00:59:04.590
we are next to the person? So then we want
862
00:59:04.610 --> 00:59:06.639
to be with the person all the time because we
863
00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:12.739
think they give us a pleasant tonality. Or do we
864
00:59:12.820 --> 00:59:18.800
grasp at the idea of love? And actually we grasp here,
865
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:21.480
what I'm looking at is we grasp at the pleasant
866
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:25.679
tonality we're supposed to have with this person. And again,
867
00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:28.300
because we think we need to have it all the time.
868
00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:31.739
But in a way, you cannot have the same pleasant
869
00:59:31.780 --> 00:59:35.219
tonality with a person all the time. Time to time,
870
00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:38.039
you'll be in a bad mood, you'll be stressed, you'll
871
00:59:38.059 --> 00:59:42.559
have difficulty. So then, if you are stressed with difficulty,
872
00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:46.400
then you're not going to experience the same pleasant feeling tone,
873
00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:50.719
which you equate with love. So then, when you don't
874
00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:53.320
have that pleasant feeling tone, does it mean you don't
875
00:59:53.380 --> 00:59:56.500
love the person? Or that they don't love you? Or
876
00:59:59.300 --> 01:00:02.139
is it that in a way love is something which
877
01:00:02.219 --> 01:00:07.309
is not just based on tonality here, but is something
878
01:00:07.369 --> 01:00:11.670
we cultivate together. And so in a way, to me,
879
01:00:11.730 --> 01:00:15.210
love is like two parallel lines. You have to cultivate
880
01:00:15.389 --> 01:00:18.429
outside of the line with other friends and different things
881
01:00:18.449 --> 01:00:21.110
like that, and you have to cultivate inside the line.
882
01:00:21.849 --> 01:00:24.739
So it's not just a feeling. Because often we equate,
883
01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:28.710
if I feel this feeling, I love the person. And
884
01:00:28.789 --> 01:00:31.929
often I think if I feel an intense, pleasant feeling
885
01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:35.159
toward I love this person, or if I feel a
886
01:00:35.179 --> 01:00:38.920
pleasant feeling toward this person loves me enough, that's an
887
01:00:38.980 --> 01:00:42.880
interesting one too. And then in a way, no, it's
888
01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:49.559
this warm feeling, but it's kind of complex. It's appreciating, sharing,
889
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:54.989
growing together. There's so many things in love, so many
890
01:00:55.030 --> 01:00:59.949
things in it. But one thing which is also important
891
01:00:59.989 --> 01:01:04.460
with love is that we love each other. Because in
892
01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:06.480
a way, if we don't love each other, this is
893
01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:10.159
what is problematic. So in a way, you're stuck with yourself.
894
01:01:11.579 --> 01:01:14.719
If you don't love yourself, you're stuck with an unpleasant
895
01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:20.449
feeling tone. But if you love yourself, then it's very
896
01:01:20.530 --> 01:01:23.449
easy to have a pleasant feeling tone because you are
897
01:01:23.469 --> 01:01:27.340
with yourself. And then In a way, loving someone else
898
01:01:27.780 --> 01:01:30.780
is an addition to that. And then you can bring
899
01:01:30.860 --> 01:01:36.280
more people in your love, in this beautiful kind of love,
900
01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:42.590
pleasant feeling tone, which is based on calm, clarity, friendliness, appreciation.
901
01:01:44.050 --> 01:01:50.619
Still working on it. Let me ask you one other question,
902
01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:56.630
and I think this is related. Marissa, the producer who
903
01:01:56.670 --> 01:01:59.889
helped prepare me to do this interview, identified a nice
904
01:01:59.949 --> 01:02:03.909
poem that you wrote called The Little Lazy Guide to Awakening.
905
01:02:04.730 --> 01:02:09.050
And the first lines are, enlightenment, question mark, the light
906
01:02:09.110 --> 01:02:12.449
is already on. What do you mean by that?
907
01:02:13.170 --> 01:02:16.050
Well, I think this is something in the school I
908
01:02:16.090 --> 01:02:19.039
was trained on, which is a Zen school, Sun School
909
01:02:19.059 --> 01:02:23.690
in Korea. And for them, we are already enlightened. We
910
01:02:23.730 --> 01:02:27.750
are already awakened. And I think what it means is
911
01:02:27.769 --> 01:02:33.949
that our creative potential is always there. Our creative potential
912
01:02:34.010 --> 01:02:39.650
for wisdom, for compassion, for love, for understanding is always there.
913
01:02:39.809 --> 01:02:43.869
We have it. We have that possibility. At the same time,
914
01:02:44.590 --> 01:02:48.940
it's not permanent in the fact that it will always manifest.
915
01:02:49.860 --> 01:02:56.750
So that, yeah, enlightenment, awakening, wisdom, compassion is possible any moment.
916
01:02:57.769 --> 01:03:02.389
But at the same time, over time, we have built
917
01:03:02.449 --> 01:03:06.320
up a lot of automatic reaction. And I think actually
918
01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:10.519
our automatic reaction was more in childhood in order to
919
01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:15.440
protect ourselves and also some influence from society, from culture.
920
01:03:16.440 --> 01:03:20.039
And so I think that when we become adult, in
921
01:03:20.079 --> 01:03:23.159
a way to see, oh, Why do I need to
922
01:03:23.219 --> 01:03:26.570
do this? Oh, why do I need to do that?
923
01:03:26.969 --> 01:03:31.349
And so personally, I see the meditation, the practice of meditation,
924
01:03:32.010 --> 01:03:35.769
the practice of anchoring, of looking deeply, as in a
925
01:03:35.829 --> 01:03:43.980
way the dissolving of those harmful survival mechanisms, those habits,
926
01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:51.010
mental habits, physical habits, relationship habits, emotional habits, who kind
927
01:03:51.050 --> 01:03:53.769
of in a way limit us. And then in a
928
01:03:53.789 --> 01:03:56.809
way to slowly, slowly dissolve those so that we can
929
01:03:56.869 --> 01:04:00.090
come back to our creative functioning. And in a way,
930
01:04:00.579 --> 01:04:05.260
the function is there. We are this creative functioning organism.
931
01:04:06.079 --> 01:04:08.239
But over time, there have been a lot of kind
932
01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:12.059
of a little fixed habits. And then it's kind of
933
01:04:12.139 --> 01:04:17.260
really practicing to dissolve these habits so that our creative
934
01:04:17.300 --> 01:04:22.159
potential can emerge, can manifest. And one way to really
935
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:28.429
experience this is doing what I call meditative listening. So
936
01:04:28.469 --> 01:04:34.469
you listen to somebody. And generally, how do we listen? Often,
937
01:04:35.010 --> 01:04:37.269
we wait for the person to stop so we can
938
01:04:37.309 --> 01:04:40.550
say something much more interesting. Or we look in the
939
01:04:40.590 --> 01:04:43.800
right direction, but we don't hear them. So when they say,
940
01:04:43.860 --> 01:04:46.159
what do you think? We have no idea what they said.
941
01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:51.250
Or we overreact and amplify, which is not helpful. But
942
01:04:51.329 --> 01:04:55.030
if we really listen to the person, really listen to
943
01:04:55.130 --> 01:05:00.840
what they say, totally, 100%, then at the moment they
944
01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:04.480
stop and they turn to us, then a lot of
945
01:05:04.539 --> 01:05:09.199
the time we say something so creative, so clear, so compassionate,
946
01:05:09.300 --> 01:05:14.400
so relevant, we've never thought before. So where does this
947
01:05:14.460 --> 01:05:21.030
come from? It comes from meeting another person. With that calmness,
948
01:05:21.070 --> 01:05:26.710
that clarity, that friendliness, that stability, that balance. And then
949
01:05:26.789 --> 01:05:30.159
within us, lots of creativity can come in.
950
01:05:34.940 --> 01:05:40.739
This seems like the work of a lifetime. Both this
951
01:05:40.820 --> 01:05:44.440
getting out of your own way. And I hear a
952
01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:48.380
paradox in there of, on the one hand, the capacity
953
01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:53.019
to The light is already on always. So it's there
954
01:05:53.119 --> 01:05:56.969
and we can access it in any moment using perhaps
955
01:05:57.750 --> 01:06:02.289
mindfulness of Vedana or other Buddhist techniques or other techniques
956
01:06:02.309 --> 01:06:05.329
that are even not Buddhist. And we can get better
957
01:06:05.369 --> 01:06:08.409
at the skill of accessing it at any moment.
958
01:06:08.949 --> 01:06:12.150
Exactly. I think you totally get it. That in a way,
959
01:06:12.230 --> 01:06:15.670
at one level, it's what we call the sudden and gradual.
960
01:06:16.500 --> 01:06:18.639
In the sound practice, you have in a way this
961
01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:24.179
idea of sudden awakening, which is always a possibility. And
962
01:06:24.239 --> 01:06:28.119
at the same time of gradual practice, because a sudden
963
01:06:28.179 --> 01:06:33.119
awakening is not immediately going to stop the habits. So
964
01:06:33.159 --> 01:06:37.449
at time, you have really this moment, great wisdom, great compassion.
965
01:06:38.230 --> 01:06:41.150
And then at the same time, you have to work
966
01:06:41.730 --> 01:06:45.139
on yourself. You have to cultivate. So in a way,
967
01:06:45.179 --> 01:06:47.739
we can be a little bit at the crossroad of
968
01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:51.119
what I would call the depth dimension and then the
969
01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:52.300
width dimension.
970
01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:54.360
Say that again, the depth?
971
01:06:54.519 --> 01:06:57.500
So the depth dimension. So in a way, the depth dimension,
972
01:06:57.519 --> 01:07:00.159
I would say, is generally a little bit limited in
973
01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:04.360
terms of conditions. So in a way, you might practice
974
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:07.320
or you might reflect. And it's kind of like the
975
01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:11.130
conditions are a little limited, like on retreat, for example,
976
01:07:11.289 --> 01:07:13.769
or on a day of practice or when you meditate.
977
01:07:14.219 --> 01:07:18.320
And then you're silent, you focus. And so in a way,
978
01:07:18.340 --> 01:07:21.730
the conditions are limited. And then you can go into
979
01:07:21.789 --> 01:07:24.989
the depths of the practice. But at the same time,
980
01:07:25.030 --> 01:07:28.170
you have to cultivate in the width of the practice,
981
01:07:28.210 --> 01:07:32.650
which is your daily life, your relationship, the way you
982
01:07:32.789 --> 01:07:36.849
use resources, the way you treat people in your office,
983
01:07:37.130 --> 01:07:39.269
et cetera, et cetera. So it seems to me we're
984
01:07:39.309 --> 01:07:44.300
always at that crossroad. of the depth dimension. Because sometimes
985
01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:47.400
people think, oh, just the depth, just the depth. I
986
01:07:47.460 --> 01:07:51.909
want to have amazing meditation experiences. But that doesn't deal
987
01:07:52.010 --> 01:07:55.809
with the habits. So you need the depth with the width.
988
01:07:56.210 --> 01:07:58.369
And so I think we are at the crossroad in
989
01:07:58.389 --> 01:08:01.130
that level, in our practice at any given moment.
990
01:08:05.139 --> 01:08:07.480
I think that is a great and inspiring place to
991
01:08:07.539 --> 01:08:09.280
leave it. This has been.
992
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:10.719
To.
993
01:08:11.389 --> 01:08:15.579
No surprise at all to me, an incredibly rewarding chat,
994
01:08:15.820 --> 01:08:17.199
and I really appreciate your time.
995
01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:20.819
Thank you very much. A pleasure to discuss things with you.
996
01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:21.420
Thank you.
997
01:08:23.899 --> 01:08:26.090
Thanks again to Martine. Great to see her.
998
01:08:27.010 --> 01:08:30.029
This show is made by Samuel Johns, DJ Kashmir, Kim Baikama,
999
01:08:30.449 --> 01:08:34.029
Maria Wartell, and Jen Poyant with Audio Engineering Network.
1000
01:08:34.810 --> 01:08:35.880
From Ultraviolet Audio.
1001
01:08:35.899 --> 01:08:38.619
We also got special help on this episode from Donnell Wedderburn.
1002
01:08:38.779 --> 01:08:39.380
Thank you, Donnell.
1003
01:08:39.880 --> 01:08:42.770
As always, a big shout out to my ABC News comrades,
1004
01:08:42.819 --> 01:08:45.270
Ryan Kessler and Josh Kohan. We'll see you all on
1005
01:08:45.310 --> 01:08:46.250
Friday for a bonus.