How to Create an Exercise Habit Without Driving Yourself Nuts | Kelly McGonigal

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This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody.
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It is a statement of the blazingly obvious that regularly
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moving your body, working out, dancing, taking walks, whatever, is
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a wise and healthy thing to do. It's good for
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your physiology and your psychology. But so many of us,
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myself included, get tangled up in knots over exercise. We
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struggle to boot up a habit and then we self-flagellate
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or maybe we have a habit going, but we're working
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out too hard, masochistically trying to whip our bodies into
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a certain shape. It is very easy to get dysregulated
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about all of this. So today, my guest is going
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to talk about how to move through this sphere of
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life with some degree of sanity. Kelly McGonigal, PhD, is
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a health psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University. Her most
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recent book is called The Joy of Movement. Before that,
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she wrote The Willpower Instinct and The Upside of Stress.
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She's also the host of the Healthy Habits course over
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on the 10% Happier app. In this conversation, we talk
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about why she describes her book as a love letter
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to movement and human nature. We talk about the science
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behind the runner's high, why so-called hope molecules get pumped
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out of your muscles during exercise, why she wants to
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change the conversation around movement. In particular, she wants to
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emphasize that it's not just about burning calories. She lays
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out some practical steps to form new habits, given that
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behavior change is, as we all know, diabolically hard for
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so many of us. She'll talk about why shame and
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self-criticism are disempowering and not motivating, and why she instead
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recommends joy, which may sound a little gooey, but she'll
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put some real meat on the bone on that one.
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She also talks about the value of setting intentions, which
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can sound like a new age cliche, but she also
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makes that one pretty practical and down to earth. And
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we also talk about how Kelly has used psychology and
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meditation to relieve her own pain and suffering. Specifically, she'll
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talk about a form of meditation called Tonglen. Okay, we'll
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get started with Kelly McGonigal right after this. Well, nice
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to see you again.
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Yes, nice to see you.
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I want to, before we dive into the new book,
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just give people a sense of who you are. Your
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work is deeply influenced by psychology and mindfulness slash Buddhism meditation.
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And so I want to just kind of get a
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sense of how you got interested in this stuff and
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where it took you. And you have told me in
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the past that part of your interest, at least in
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the way the mind works, was meditation. a result of
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physical pain from your childhood.
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Can you talk about that?
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So, you know, for as long as I can remember,
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going back to when I was maybe seven or eight,
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I had daily headaches and other kinds of pain. where
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it seemed like my experience of life was one where
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my body produced pain every day without really knowing why
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and without being able to get rid of it through
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the sort of normal ways you would try to treat pain.
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And so it did a couple of things. One is
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I feel like I missed whatever part of life it
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is where you can avoid thinking about suffering. I feel
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like that was just sort of part of my mind
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from very early on, being aware of my own pain
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and the pain of others and somehow being motivated to
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relieve that. I think that pointed me to both psychology
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and the contemplative practices. For meditation, I mean, it's such
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a strange origin story. My mother, who was a classroom teacher,
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had a friend. who was sort of like a new
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age person. And she used to give me her cassette
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tapes and books that were sort of related to meditation-like things.
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And so I was the little kid up in my
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room when nobody else was there playing these cassette tapes
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and learning, I don't even know what traditions they were from,
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but practicing meditation in like fourth grade, fifth grade and on.
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I feel like there's something in me that was drawn
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to both of those fields because both of them have
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this deep interest in understanding the causes of suffering and
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how to relieve suffering.
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Can you just give me a sense of when you
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started formally meditating and what form that took?
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Good question.
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The first place where I was able to show up
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to have like a real teacher in a community was
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when I went to Stanford. I had read books by
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Sherry Huber, who is an American Zen teacher. And it's
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a type of Zen that is very much focused on
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engaged living and engaged compassion in the meditation practice and
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awareness practice, really to live compassion rather than to necessarily
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achieve some sort of inner peace or enlightenment. And I'd
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read some of her books, and it turned out when
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I was at Stanford that she had a Palo Alto
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Zen center that I ended up living a few blocks from.
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So that was the first place where I was able
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to have that sort of direct relationship with a teacher
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and a community.
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What kind of impact did it have on your life?
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It's so funny because nobody ever asks me about these things.
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I would say the meditation that had the biggest impact
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on me at that time in my life was Tonglen
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and a practice known as the benefactor meditation. The benefactor
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practice was really interesting because it asks you to think
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about the people in your life that you're grateful to
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and just sort of imagine putting them on a list
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and sending them your gratitude and your loving kindness.
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But the actual exercise is to try to.
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Take people who might be on your neutral list and
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then people who are on your enemy list, people who
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have harmed you, you perceive to have harmed you, and
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find a way through compassion practice to move them onto
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the benefactor list. And I worked with that practice when
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I was in graduate school studying psychology. And I just
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remember the first time, I won't say who it was,
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but when there were two people in my life, when
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suddenly I realized with sincerity that I could view them
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on the benefactor list, It was such, it was almost
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like a miracle realizing how these practices can change your
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perception of life and change the story that you have.
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And there really was like a radical opening. And then
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the Tonglen practice, which is still my favorite meditation practice,
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is the practice of recognizing suffering in the world and
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imagining that you can breathe it in.
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And you actually visualize it, right?
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You visualize it. Yeah, you can do it lots of
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different ways, but you can certainly do it through imagery.
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You imagine breathing it in. you imagine allowing it to
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touch your heart and through your connection to compassion, transforming
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it into something you want to offer the world, like
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hope or courage or kindness. And I remember first learning
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this practice from Pema Chodron, and it was counter to
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all of the, like the woo-woo New Agey meditations I
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had been introduced to as a little kid, where it
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was breathe in the good stuff, breathe out the bad stuff,
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as if sort of meditation practice was about trying to
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make a cocoon for yourself. I mean, I remember some
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of these old New Agey meditations, like imagine yourself in
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a pink bubble, and it's healing you.
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And this was so different.
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And I remember Pema Chodron saying that this was a
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practice of courage. And that was something, because my own
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temperament leaned so strongly towards fear and anxiety, I felt
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that this is an amazing practice. I felt what it
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had to do with courage, that it was about saying
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suffering in the world is real, and you can't protect
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yourself from it. And more importantly, this practice requires you
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to acknowledge that this is someone's reality. You know, I
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feel like people go around the world thinking that they
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don't want to understand the reality of other people's lived experiences,
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including deep suffering.
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And I feel like Tonglen is this amazing practice where
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you have to drop that illusion.
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And both of those practices I came to when I
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was a graduate student, and they had a very big
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impact on me.
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In that way.
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Stanford for psychology.
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Yeah.
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But essentially, you were primed to be able to To
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do this practice because as a seven-year-old, you realize suffering
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was out there.
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And I had a temperament, too, toward empathy to the
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point where some of my earliest childhood memories, I remember
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trying to rescue worms when it rained because I thought
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the worms were drowning, which I don't know, maybe they
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were or they weren't. but like not wanting to get
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on the bus to go to school because I was
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trying to rescue the worms. Like there was something in
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me that wanted to do that, but also was very
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easily overwhelmed. And so I feel like what meditation practices
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did for me, Tonglen and also yoga, which is something
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that I was deepening my practice of around the same time,
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that those practices, they give you a strength so that
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if you have a natural tendency to want to relieve
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the suffering in the world so that you can keep
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your heart open and not feel completely overwhelmed.
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By wanting to engage with that.
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What does your practice look like today?
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So I have practices that I do when I wake
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up and when I go to sleep that are really
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important for my values. So in the morning, my morning
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practice is about bringing awareness to my intention for the
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day and thinking about what I'm going to be doing
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that day and what I want to bring to that day.
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And sometimes it'll have like a word like enthusiasm.
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Where does this take place, just while you're still lying
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in bed?
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I won't even get out of bed.
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Okay.
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Yeah, before I do that, no matter what chaos is happening.
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There have been some crazy moments where I've been like, okay, wait,
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I just need to do this. Okay, now I can
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deal with whatever's happening right now.
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One of your cats is puking in the hallway.
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That is, oh, no, on the bed. Yeah, forget the hallway.
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Because my husband's trying to launch the cat off the bed. Yes.
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So that's the very first practice of the day.
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Let's just drill down on that a second. Because actually,
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I've been thinking, you know, I've had on the show
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a couple times, The Jinpa?
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Yes.
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Yeah. So he's one of my collaborators.
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Oh, right.
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Because were you involved in the Stanford?
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In developing this, yes, the Stanford Compassion Cultivation Program.
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Okay. So we've also, another of your collaborators, was Emma
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Seppala involved in that?
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She was the science director for the research branch of Stanford.
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Center for Compassion.
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Emma's been on the show before. I really, really like
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her a lot. I respect her a lot.
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Jinpa was telling me, I was reading his book, which
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is a really excellent book.
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I think it's called A Fearless Heart.
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Fearless Heart.
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Yes.
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I know.
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I love that. Not like a lovey-dovey heart.
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Right.
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Fearless heart.
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I still have a problem with the word heart. But anyway,
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the book is wonderful. And he talks, and I did
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it for a while. He talked about like kind of
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waking up in the morning and setting an intention for
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the day. Setting an intention is one of these phrases
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that can sound very new agey and I don't know,
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I have a bit of an allergic reaction to even
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that phrase. And yet I noticed that motivation is so important.
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And if you set the motivation to, you know, I
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don't know, not be a jerk today, or as you said,
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be enthusiastic.
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It's not just motivation.
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So one of the things that the Zen teacher Sherry
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Huber says often is the focus of your attention determines
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the quality of your life. It's simply you're choosing what
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to pay attention to. And you're choosing what you want
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to bring. Particularly when I did the practice, I'm thinking
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about moments that I think have potential for meaning and
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joy and also moments I think have potential for stress
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or worry or conflict. And so the intention is about clarity.
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It's about agency.
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So I'm setting up who I want to be that day,
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not like what I wish will happen, if that makes sense.
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It's not like, here's what I'm going to do today.
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It's here's how I'm going to do today.
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And it sounds like it's pretty quick. You're just kind
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of- Oh yeah.
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Well now, because I've been doing it for, I mean,
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I've been doing this practice for at least 15 years.
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I can't remember when I started it. This is so
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much better than my morning practice used to be to
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drag myself out of bed before coffee and sit down
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and do my formal practice. And actually, as it turns out,
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that's not the best time for me to sit and
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do practice before I've had coffee. So I found like
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this is actually a much better way for me to
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start the day.
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And how would we do it?
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The rest of us.
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You probably have to start by sending the intention before
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you go to sleep at night. Like something is going
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to have to remind you to do it when you
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wake up. It is possible if you're someone who looks
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at your phone first thing in the morning, maybe you
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can send yourself a text message or something that you
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would see when you grab your phone. That's like, hey,
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put this down for a second and think about maybe
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a word that describes what you want to bring today
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or what you want to experience today.
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You know, I think it's like a muscle that you strengthen.
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So this sounds like it could be super quick. You're
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lying in bed. She's like, all right, here's what's going
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on my docket today. Can I give everybody my full attention?
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Yes. Yeah.
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I mean, that's a great one.
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Or maybe today it'll be giving people the benefit of
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the doubt. I mean, you can experiment with so many things.
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And I found there are a few that do have
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a big influence on the quality of my life. Or
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you know what?
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Today I'm going to give myself the benefit of the doubt. Yeah.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And so, okay. So that's one of your practices that
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I use.
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Yeah. Evening practice is the best. I love this practice
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so much as someone who suffers from insomnia. Yeah. So
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it's not like I'm going to go to sleep and
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fall asleep. Something else has to happen for a little while.
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So I do, I call it my interdependence practice where
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I review the day and I think about everything I
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did and experienced and who I came into contact with.
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And I imagine thanking them and thinking about why I'm
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grateful that they were a part of that day from
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a checkout person at the grocery store or somebody that
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I worked with or family members, my partner.
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And I go through that.
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It's like a loving kindness practice, but it's rooted in
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memory and how I choose to remember the day. And
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I'm a big fan of interdependence in general as a
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meditation practice. It doesn't necessarily have to be that form,
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but we know from the psychology of it that When
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you strengthen a mindset of interdependence, when you are willing
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to acknowledge we're all in this together and that other
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people contribute to your life, you aren't the sole determinant
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of everything you experience. And also that you play that
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role for others as well. It makes people more likely
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to ask for help when they're struggling. It increases people's
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sort of spontaneous feelings of hope and gratitude.
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So I've been doing that practice for just a couple
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of years.
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Is that also in bed?
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Yes, it is. I know you're like, do you ever
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meditate sitting? Yes, I do.
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But I think the three most important, I'm sharing with
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you the three most important practices. And the third most important.
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One is on the moment Tonglen. And that is on
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the moment, like on the spot. If I'm with.
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Someone and I'm aware that they're struggling in some way,
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but it's not necessarily appropriate for me to give them
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a hug or have a conversation about it, to do
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Tonglen for them in that moment. Or if I'm feeling
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worried about something, to bring to mind people in the
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world who are dealing with that amplified. So if I'm
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worried about maybe some minor health issue, I'll just bring
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to mind the people in the world right now who
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are dealing with a major health issue and do Tonglen
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for them. And I find that that practice also is
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extremely helpful for me in.
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Managing moment-to-moment life.
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And I don't know that any of these practices, you know,
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I'm a big believer in sitting down and learning the practices. But,
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you know, when I teach meditation, I always tell people,
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you sit down and you practice things so that you
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have skills with your mind. But I'm not convinced that
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those sit-down sessions have as much a determinant on the
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quality of my life as the way that I've found
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to integrate practices into my daily rituals.
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And also, I view yoga as part of that practice because.
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The yoga that I practice involves breath focus. The main
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practice that I learned through Zen was counting the breath.
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And the main yoga practice that I spent years cultivating
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also involves counting the breath.
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So sort of this perfect synchrony.
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Well, it brings us right to the subject of your
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new book.
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Yes.
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Joy of Movement. Love letter to movement and exercise. Why
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did you want to write it? What's it about?
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Yeah. It's a love letter.
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To movement and to human nature, which I didn't know
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when I wrote it, it was going to turn out
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to be. I learned a lot about the science of
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movement and why humans thrive when we move. And I
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learned a lot from talking to people about their experiences
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with movement that gave me a lot of hope about
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human nature as well. But I wanted to write this
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book for a couple of reasons. One is that I
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think of meditation, the things we've been talking about so far,
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as helping me deal with suffering. But nothing produces sheer
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joy in my life as moving and moving to music.
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For example, taking a dance class.
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Which you did this morning.
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Which I did this morning.
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Or teaching a dance class or taking a kickboxing class
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to an amazing soundtrack that makes me feel empowered. Or
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practicing yoga. That the part of me that experiences joy. bliss, hope, joy, connection,
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that sort of the empowered positive states, I access that
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best through movement. And so I wanted to write this
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book because I've only ever written books that I really
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think are about how to deal with the hard stuff,
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you know, stress, behavior change. I feel like I've spent
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most of my public-facing career helping people deal with things
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they wish they didn't have to deal with. My first
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book was about chronic pain and And I feel like
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that's a big part of my personality.
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Like, let's just go to the pain points and see
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what we can do with this.
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But in my own life, going back to when I
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was around the same age that I started having pain
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and I discovered Jazzercise because my mom brought home VHS
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tapes from garage sales that she never did, but I
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did them. I discovered that this made me happy.
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Did you wear leg warmers for jazz?
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Okay, first of all, leg warmers are amazing.
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I didn't at home then. I didn't even have sneakers.
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We were not an exercising family. I don't know what
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I was doing. I remember begging my mom for this
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thong leotard that was so inappropriate, and I did not
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get it. But I do remember, like, lusting after this
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leotard with roses on it at the discount department store.
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And this, by the way, this is a suburban Philly.
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Yeah, yeah, in New Jersey. Yeah.
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And so I wanted to write this book because, you know,
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I've been teaching fitness for 20 years. And before that,
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I was using movement to experience joy. And I just
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felt like it was time to share that with the
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world in the way that I share it with my
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local community. You know, the best part of my day
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is when I teach an exercise class.
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And I wanted... to help.
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Change the conversation we have about movement because so often
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when we talk about exercise, it is about, number one
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is burning calories, losing weight, which can absolutely kill the
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joy that is possible. I mean, of course you do
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burn calories, but if that is your mindset, it screws
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up so many of the natural things that you could
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harness in movement that bring you joy. It just becomes
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an often big distraction, weight loss, preventing heart attacks. We
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know that exercise is so good for you that we
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forget how good it is. And I wanted to just
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reintroduce that into our conversation because if you talk to
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people who exercise regularly, they often will tell you they
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don't do it because they're keeping track of how many
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calories they're burning. Their faces light up. They tell you
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what they love. And they tell you what it means
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to them. And those are the stories that when I
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said that the book gave me hope about human nature,
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those are stories people were telling about what powerlifting had
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meant to them or what the community that they found
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taking fitness classes meant to them or what they learned
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about themselves from going from being unable to walk a
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5K to running half marathons. When people talk about movement,
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they often become like the best version of themselves. And
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by the way, I'm really excited because I hope that's
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true for me, too. I feel like writing this book
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was an opportunity for.
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Me to also get to know that aspect of myself.
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Coming up, Kelly McGonigal dives into the science behind the
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runner's high and explains what evolution has to do with it.
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She also talks about.
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What hope molecules are and why they're pumped out by
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your muscles during exercise right after this. I'm just keying
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in on something you said. Many things you said are
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incredibly interesting. I want to chase them down a little bit.
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But one thing you said about how the movement itself
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can produce joy and yet where many of us exercise
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for reasons that are around, you know, burning a certain
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amount of calories or I don't know, look in a
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certain way. I find often that my exercise, I'm thinking
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yesterday I did a 45-minute spin class on Peloton. And
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I loved the teacher and the music was all right.
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But a lot of it was just really hard. And
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I was kind of suffering a little bit. But I
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liked having done it more than I liked doing it.
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So does that mean I should pick a different form
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of exercise? I should have a different mindset while I'm exercising?
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How do you diagnose that? So I don't know that
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I would diagnose that.
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It is okay to do things that are hard and
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be aware that they're hard while you're doing it and
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have sort of an inner stream that is like, why
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am I doing this?
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You know, this hurts. This is hard. This is uncomfortable.
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It's actually really common for a lot of things that
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are meaningful and useful in our life that also can
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produce joy. It doesn't concern me that you could have
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that experience while doing something that is really physically hard.
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Although I know Peloton, they.
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Do try to structure the experience so that you will
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feel comfortable really empowered for having done it. In fact,
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I think that's actually part of the way they construct
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their whole program and product is to produce the feeling
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that you described, that afterwards you're like, I did that,
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and I'm the kind of person who did that. So
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maybe you're getting exactly the kind of joy you need
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from it while getting whatever the other health benefits are.
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I don't know that I would light up talking about it.
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In other words, though, you were talking about how people
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light up talking about their exercise. I feel like there
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are some forms of exercise I've done that I would
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light up talking about it, but they're much easier than
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a 45-minute spin class where I feel like I'm being
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strangled at points.
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We should talk about how I use spin class, by
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the way, because it was like the worst exercise experience
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in my life when I started it. So I think
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there can be value in that. You know, if you
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were asking me seriously, how should I spend my exercise time?
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you know, it comes down to what is the purpose
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of it in your life. And if you are deriving
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the types of joy that I talk about, connection, meaning, purpose,
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personal growth, self-transcendence, if you're getting that from other practices
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and other relationships, and you're thinking of exercise as this
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is for my heart, maybe you just do the hardest
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thing that works your heart and you feel good about
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it afterward.
484
00:22:17.259 --> 00:22:18.980
So you mean actual heart, not metaphysical heart?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, I know that. That thing that's
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pounding in your chest.
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Exercise doesn't have to play a particular role in every
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person's life, But I'm interested in talking to the person
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who feels like there's actually something that is maybe missing.
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And that movement seems to help us access the joys
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that are really important to our humanity, like social connection,
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like a sense of mastery, like self-transcendence, particularly if we
493
00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:48.640
exercise outdoors. So if we were going to diagnose your situation,
494
00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:50.579
you said there are movement forms that.
495
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:51.299
Would light you up.
496
00:22:51.740 --> 00:22:54.339
I would ask you, is it worth doing that because
497
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.089
it lights you up, not sort of in exchange for
498
00:22:57.130 --> 00:23:00.950
something that's cardiovascularly difficult so that you feel good about that,
499
00:23:01.430 --> 00:23:03.970
but because it would enhance your life. That's really the
500
00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:06.970
focus I have is movement can enhance your life. I'm
501
00:23:07.009 --> 00:23:10.660
not primarily interested in making the thing you do for your.
502
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.180
Health more fun. You can do something for your health.
503
00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:14.759
That's fine.
504
00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:18.250
But if you're looking to experience a sense of maybe
505
00:23:18.269 --> 00:23:21.349
reimagining what's possible in your life, I know that there
506
00:23:21.369 --> 00:23:24.230
are movement forms that can help you tap into that. Okay,
507
00:23:24.329 --> 00:23:26.369
so one of the things I'm most proud of in
508
00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.970
my life is having overcome a fear of flying that
509
00:23:29.029 --> 00:23:31.650
kept me off of airplanes for years and years and years.
510
00:23:32.500 --> 00:23:34.539
And when I decided it was time to conquer it,
511
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:36.180
I had good reasons. I wanted to be able to
512
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.460
see my family more often, and I wanted to be
513
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.400
able to take professional opportunities that required getting on a plane.
514
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.019
So I decided, I don't know when this was, like
515
00:23:45.019 --> 00:23:47.460
2004 maybe, that I was going to start doing this.
516
00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:50.329
And I thought to myself, where have I ever felt
517
00:23:51.009 --> 00:23:52.190
like I feel on an airplane?
518
00:23:52.809 --> 00:23:54.549
Claustrophobic. trapped.
519
00:23:54.750 --> 00:23:57.619
My heart is pounding. I hate every moment of it,
520
00:23:57.869 --> 00:24:00.599
and I want to escape, and I can't leave. I
521
00:24:00.990 --> 00:24:03.700
was like, that spinning class I took a few years ago,
522
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.099
that's exactly how I felt in that class. So I
523
00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:10.210
started going to cycling classes knowing that I would hate it,
524
00:24:10.339 --> 00:24:12.559
that I would find it miserable, that I would struggle
525
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.359
to breathe, that my heart would be pounding, and I
526
00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:17.779
would literally feel as trapped as I do on an airplane.
527
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.480
And I said to myself, I'm practicing being with that
528
00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:24.680
and not leaving the room. And I will teach myself
529
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.869
how to do that through this experience. And what's so crazy,
530
00:24:27.890 --> 00:24:29.650
first of all, it worked. And one of the things
531
00:24:29.690 --> 00:24:31.089
that helped me stay in the room was the music,
532
00:24:31.109 --> 00:24:35.109
the playlist. So I started listening to cycling playlists on airplanes.
533
00:24:35.250 --> 00:24:35.890
I still do that.
534
00:24:36.150 --> 00:24:39.079
When we hit bad turbulence, I put on music from
535
00:24:39.220 --> 00:24:41.880
like a cycling class. But the crazy thing is, is
536
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.140
even though I hated it so much because of what
537
00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:47.140
I had to do to stay in the room and
538
00:24:47.180 --> 00:24:49.200
like listening to the music that, you know, often in
539
00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:52.390
cycling classes, they play music that's about... working hard and
540
00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:56.630
being tough and being determined, somehow it got me. And
541
00:24:56.650 --> 00:24:58.990
I ended up getting certified to teach cycling like 10
542
00:24:58.990 --> 00:25:02.569
years later. And although it's not my favorite form of exercise,
543
00:25:03.009 --> 00:25:06.170
like something shifted in me because of the role that
544
00:25:06.190 --> 00:25:08.079
it played in that sort of part of my journey. And,
545
00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:10.980
you know, being so proud to have dealt with that
546
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:14.059
fear that I spent so much time letting control me.
547
00:25:14.299 --> 00:25:16.920
That's a joy. That's still not, if you asked me,
548
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:18.960
you gave me 20 different workouts, I'm probably not going
549
00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:19.900
to choose getting on a bike.
550
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:21.880
What else did you learn in the writing of the
551
00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:25.200
book about the power of movement for, you said it
552
00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:27.680
was not only about a love letter to movement and exercise,
553
00:25:27.700 --> 00:25:30.299
but also a love letter to human nature. So can
554
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:31.299
you say more about that?
555
00:25:31.619 --> 00:25:33.079
Yeah. So one of the reasons I wrote the book
556
00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:35.369
also is because a lot of the people in my life,
557
00:25:35.470 --> 00:25:38.390
I love, love running. And I also don't run. I'm like,
558
00:25:38.430 --> 00:25:40.400
why would you run when you could dance? So I
559
00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:43.079
wanted to understand why people love running so much. And
560
00:25:43.420 --> 00:25:46.200
runners have such a love affair with the sport and
561
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:48.859
the exercise. So I started by trying to figure out
562
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:50.680
what the runner's high is. I mean, I think I
563
00:25:50.769 --> 00:25:53.329
actually do experience it in other forms of movement. But
564
00:25:53.349 --> 00:25:54.809
I thought, like, let's talk to runners and look at
565
00:25:54.829 --> 00:25:57.470
the science of the runner's high. And I discovered this
566
00:25:57.509 --> 00:26:01.609
whole field of research from anthropology and neuroscience. The theory
567
00:26:01.670 --> 00:26:05.339
is that we experience a high that is related to
568
00:26:05.380 --> 00:26:10.349
endorphins and endocannabinoids and possibly oxytocin when we exert ourselves
569
00:26:10.710 --> 00:26:13.660
over a period of time. that's related to our need
570
00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:18.869
when we were hunters and gatherers to go out and walk, run, forage,
571
00:26:19.150 --> 00:26:20.490
carry heavy things.
572
00:26:20.589 --> 00:26:22.009
Evolution wanted us to do this stuff.
573
00:26:22.230 --> 00:26:25.329
Yeah, and then our brain found a way to reward
574
00:26:25.390 --> 00:26:29.599
us for persisting through physical labor. And that reward is
575
00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:32.140
the runner's high. But what is so fascinating about it
576
00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:36.160
is the neurochemistry of it. It's not just an endorphin rush,
577
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:37.880
which is what would make us maybe feel good.
578
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:40.990
And endorphins help us connect with others, too. But it
579
00:26:41.029 --> 00:26:42.289
seems to be driven.
580
00:26:42.089 --> 00:26:46.890
Largely by endocannabinoids, which is a neurochemical that relieves pain
581
00:26:47.109 --> 00:26:51.670
and relieves anxiety that makes us really optimistic and facilitates
582
00:26:51.769 --> 00:26:54.329
the joy we get from social contact. It makes us
583
00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:59.130
more likely to enjoy sharing and playing and listening to
584
00:26:59.269 --> 00:27:01.950
other people tell stories and it enhances the pleasure of
585
00:27:02.029 --> 00:27:03.289
shared laughter.
586
00:27:03.430 --> 00:27:05.279
And this is a big part of the runner's high.
587
00:27:05.380 --> 00:27:06.779
And also oxytocin, which.
588
00:27:07.470 --> 00:27:10.500
is a neurohormone that helps us bond with others, particularly
589
00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:12.240
other people who are already in our life and in
590
00:27:12.500 --> 00:27:16.049
our social circle. And oxytocin also enhances the pleasure we
591
00:27:16.069 --> 00:27:19.089
get from helping others and cooperating. And the idea that
592
00:27:19.470 --> 00:27:25.190
the runner's high is basically this neurochemical cocktail that doesn't
593
00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:29.000
just make us feel good. It's priming us to connect.
594
00:27:29.259 --> 00:27:31.599
Herman Ponser is an anthropologist I talked to who has
595
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.059
studied some of this. And he was talking about how
596
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.799
sharing was like the defining feature that made modern humans human,
597
00:27:37.940 --> 00:27:40.440
whereas other people would argue it was hunting and gathering.
598
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.599
And I thought, how amazing is it that humans have
599
00:27:44.619 --> 00:27:50.609
this capacity to physically endure in order to survive? But
600
00:27:50.630 --> 00:27:54.769
that capacity, the biological rush we get, is priming us
601
00:27:54.869 --> 00:27:57.450
to share and cooperate and connect with one another. It's
602
00:27:57.470 --> 00:27:59.950
like you go out, you get your runner's high, then
603
00:27:59.970 --> 00:28:02.470
you come back to your family or your tribe, a
604
00:28:03.049 --> 00:28:06.289
version of yourself that's going to enjoy cooperating, enjoy sharing,
605
00:28:06.329 --> 00:28:09.990
enjoy connecting, and that strengthens the bonds that help us survive.
606
00:28:10.369 --> 00:28:12.170
When I talk about a love letter to human nature,
607
00:28:13.190 --> 00:28:16.089
that's amazing. And so much of what I learned from
608
00:28:16.130 --> 00:28:18.130
talking to people about the role that movement plays in
609
00:28:18.150 --> 00:28:21.130
their lives is is that they are experiencing this social
610
00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:24.289
support network or it empowers them to connect with the
611
00:28:24.329 --> 00:28:26.549
people in their life who are already important to them.
612
00:28:26.569 --> 00:28:30.240
And just beginning to understand the neurobiology of that blew
613
00:28:30.259 --> 00:28:30.640
my mind.
614
00:28:30.660 --> 00:28:35.039
Are there things you learned about exercise and the benefits
615
00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:36.769
therein that surprised you?
616
00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:38.230
Yes.
617
00:28:38.309 --> 00:28:41.150
Okay. So I also found a body of research that
618
00:28:41.170 --> 00:28:43.190
I was not familiar with, and I feel like most
619
00:28:43.230 --> 00:28:45.099
people are not familiar with, that has only come out
620
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:48.480
in the last decade. And it is the insight that
621
00:28:48.500 --> 00:28:51.799
your muscles are an endocrine organ. So like we know
622
00:28:51.819 --> 00:28:54.359
your adrenal glands will pump out all sorts of hormones,
623
00:28:54.380 --> 00:28:57.420
your pituitary gland pumps out stuff that influences every system
624
00:28:57.440 --> 00:28:59.930
of your body. And it turns out your muscles are
625
00:29:00.029 --> 00:29:03.670
also like an endocrine organ. And when you contract your
626
00:29:03.690 --> 00:29:09.339
muscles in exercise... They secrete proteins. They secrete substances that
627
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.640
are insanely good for your health, that kill cancer cells
628
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.400
and reduce inflammation and all of that, but also have
629
00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:19.079
a really profound effect on brain health and mental health.
630
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:22.440
And one of the first scientific papers that wrote about
631
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:27.079
this called them hope molecules. This idea that when you exercise,
632
00:29:27.099 --> 00:29:28.960
like literally if you go for a run or walk,
633
00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:33.920
your quadriceps, your muscles will secrete into your bloodstream hope molecules.
634
00:29:34.069 --> 00:29:37.319
These molecules that move through the bloodstream to your brain,
635
00:29:37.339 --> 00:29:40.119
and act on the brain in ways that make you
636
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:42.960
more resilient to stress, that help you recover from trauma,
637
00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:47.789
that increase positive motivation, that increase neuroplasticity in a positive way.
638
00:29:47.970 --> 00:29:50.109
And there's a whole bunch of them. They're called myokines.
639
00:29:50.450 --> 00:29:54.089
And one study found dozens of these beneficial myokines that
640
00:29:54.130 --> 00:29:57.670
were pumped out by your muscles. And to me, that's, again,
641
00:29:57.710 --> 00:30:00.960
it's just so fascinating to think Like who would think
642
00:30:00.980 --> 00:30:04.500
you had a pharmacy in your quadriceps and that the
643
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.980
only way to access them is to contract your muscles
644
00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:10.769
and to use your body? And so I think like,
645
00:30:10.869 --> 00:30:13.369
you know, you're basically giving yourself an intravenous dose of
646
00:30:13.430 --> 00:30:17.930
hope every time you exercise. Like I knew that exercise
647
00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:21.470
is one of the most powerful preventions and treatments for depression.
648
00:30:21.869 --> 00:30:24.230
I knew that, but this is like one of those
649
00:30:24.289 --> 00:30:27.369
mechanisms I'd never heard explained before. And I like to
650
00:30:27.410 --> 00:30:29.650
think about that when I exercise and I'm giving my
651
00:30:29.750 --> 00:30:31.150
brain that IV dose of hope.
652
00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:32.410
I love that.
653
00:30:32.869 --> 00:30:34.910
When you were writing the book, were you thinking, okay, well,
654
00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:39.519
this is for people who don't exercise and I'm going
655
00:30:39.619 --> 00:30:41.549
to help them get excited to do it?
656
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:46.599
No, it's not that it's not for them. But I
657
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:49.720
felt like, I thought maybe that's who the book was for.
658
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:52.940
But as I was writing it, I realized that I
659
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:56.259
kept running into so many people who already loved movements.
660
00:30:56.730 --> 00:30:58.519
There were more of them than I thought there were.
661
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.559
And they had never been asked to talk about movement
662
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:04.240
before in a way where they could explain how it
663
00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:06.279
made them feel about themselves or what it had meant
664
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:08.680
to them in a difficult time. I think I realized
665
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:11.589
writing the book, I ended up writing a book that
666
00:31:11.809 --> 00:31:16.730
first and foremost is not an argument to persuade non-exercisers.
667
00:31:15.930 --> 00:31:18.670
To exercise, although I think it might. I mean, there's
668
00:31:18.710 --> 00:31:20.390
a lot of good reasons to exercise.
669
00:31:20.410 --> 00:31:22.670
But I think I ended up writing a book that
670
00:31:22.809 --> 00:31:26.200
if you're somebody who, who has used movement of some
671
00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:30.289
form to survive, to thrive, to find joy and meaning.
672
00:31:30.710 --> 00:31:33.069
This might be the first time you see it described
673
00:31:33.109 --> 00:31:35.470
in a way where you really recognize it and its value.
674
00:31:35.890 --> 00:31:37.829
Like this is the book to give someone who doesn't.
675
00:31:37.650 --> 00:31:41.269
Understand why you love running or why it's so important
676
00:31:41.289 --> 00:31:43.250
to go to that Zumba class. This is the book
677
00:31:43.289 --> 00:31:45.430
I think that says, maybe people have told you that
678
00:31:45.450 --> 00:31:49.349
it's self-indulgent to prioritize exercise when you should be taking
679
00:31:49.369 --> 00:31:51.950
care of other people or focusing on something else. And
680
00:31:51.990 --> 00:31:54.240
this is the book that says, if you figure this out,
681
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.980
this is real and here's ways to deepen it even more.
682
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.170
And I think that if you're somebody who, thinks you
683
00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:04.509
hate movement. Because I do meet people who, but what's
684
00:32:04.529 --> 00:32:06.349
so funny is I met so many people talking to
685
00:32:06.369 --> 00:32:08.880
them for this book who thought they hated movement until
686
00:32:08.890 --> 00:32:11.940
they found the right type. One woman I spoke to,
687
00:32:12.500 --> 00:32:14.460
she waited until I think her late 40s to.
688
00:32:14.420 --> 00:32:16.220
Get in a boat. She's a rower now.
689
00:32:16.500 --> 00:32:19.079
And when she got in the boat, she'd always thought
690
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:21.220
she had the wrong body. It's not how a body
691
00:32:21.259 --> 00:32:23.750
should be. the story that a lot of people have.
692
00:32:23.869 --> 00:32:25.670
And then once you got in a boat and felt
693
00:32:25.710 --> 00:32:28.069
the power and the power of working with other women
694
00:32:28.150 --> 00:32:31.210
to grow, she was like, yes, this is what I
695
00:32:31.230 --> 00:32:34.490
was born for. I feel like sometimes it's about finding
696
00:32:34.529 --> 00:32:36.750
the right movement form or the right time in your life.
697
00:32:36.769 --> 00:32:38.119
I mean, the other thing that I found in the
698
00:32:38.150 --> 00:32:40.940
research that was really interesting is that as we age,
699
00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.680
our brains change in a way that makes us less
700
00:32:44.180 --> 00:32:47.019
receptive to joy. Our reward system change in a way
701
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.000
where you're basically losing a little bit of your capacity
702
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:54.039
for everyday joy with every decade. And exercise seems to
703
00:32:54.099 --> 00:32:56.900
prevent and reverse that. And I thought, like, maybe that's
704
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.940
one reason why people swear they hate exercise. And then
705
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.480
I have people showing up to my classes in their
706
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:04.319
60s and 70s who didn't exercise earlier. And now they're
707
00:33:04.339 --> 00:33:07.480
saying this is such a tremendous resource for them. I
708
00:33:08.109 --> 00:33:10.210
think sometimes we have to wait for our brains and
709
00:33:10.250 --> 00:33:12.009
our bodies to need it in a certain way to
710
00:33:12.609 --> 00:33:15.049
really understand the role that it can play.
711
00:33:15.990 --> 00:33:17.450
You've just listed all the benefits.
712
00:33:17.819 --> 00:33:19.960
For some people, I think, I would imagine that can
713
00:33:20.019 --> 00:33:22.200
provoke a sense of guilt and shame, like, well, all
714
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.140
these benefits are out there, but I'm not accessing this
715
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:26.319
stuff because I can't get myself to the gym.
716
00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:28.880
So how do we make this a habit?
717
00:33:29.529 --> 00:33:31.849
Let me start by saying something I think is really important,
718
00:33:32.069 --> 00:33:34.869
which is that the benefits I've been talking about, and
719
00:33:34.950 --> 00:33:37.509
even benefits we haven't talked about, like your sense of self,
720
00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:42.279
that they have been demonstrated every age, every physical status.
721
00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:45.190
They don't require being any particular weight whatsoever. They don't
722
00:33:45.230 --> 00:33:48.829
require not having disabilities. I was looking at research all
723
00:33:48.849 --> 00:33:51.349
the way into hospice care. At end of life, you
724
00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:54.380
still see these psychological and social benefits of movement.
725
00:33:54.890 --> 00:33:57.299
So if there's anyone who's listening and thinking, I don't have.
726
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:00.380
The right body for it, or I have a barrier
727
00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:03.220
to it, that is going to make this not the case.
728
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:05.759
You know, chronic pain, a disability, a health condition. I
729
00:34:06.339 --> 00:34:10.199
do want to say upfront that that is not true.
730
00:34:10.900 --> 00:34:13.500
And what I would encourage people to do is not
731
00:34:13.539 --> 00:34:16.260
to look for the thing that is selling you the
732
00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:20.010
promise of getting a different body or losing weight. Why
733
00:34:20.050 --> 00:34:24.389
don't you ask yourself, what's a form of movement that
734
00:34:25.010 --> 00:34:26.190
you are inspired by?
735
00:34:26.429 --> 00:34:28.929
If you were going to watch people move, what's interesting
736
00:34:28.969 --> 00:34:31.349
to you? What speaks to you? Or was there a
737
00:34:31.429 --> 00:34:33.010
type of movement you enjoyed as a child?
738
00:34:33.489 --> 00:34:35.550
First of all, give yourself permission to think of this
739
00:34:35.730 --> 00:34:37.269
as something that is going to be better than you
740
00:34:37.289 --> 00:34:39.070
think it's going to be, that there's a chance that
741
00:34:39.349 --> 00:34:43.090
that you could really discover an aspect of yourself that
742
00:34:43.170 --> 00:34:47.380
you love through movement, or that it could actually be fun.
743
00:34:47.570 --> 00:34:50.679
It could actually be meaningful. Do you want to throw things?
744
00:34:50.699 --> 00:34:53.000
Do you want to lift heavy things? What type of
745
00:34:53.079 --> 00:34:57.300
movement seems appealing to you? That's a place to start.
746
00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:00.579
And if you can't think of that, to think about
747
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:03.469
something that you know you enjoy that you don't get
748
00:35:03.659 --> 00:35:06.369
enough of in your life already. Maybe it's being outdoors.
749
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:10.579
Maybe it's listening to music you love. Maybe it's spending
750
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:14.099
time with particular individuals. Or maybe there's something that you
751
00:35:14.139 --> 00:35:17.579
know you enjoy. Movement can almost always be integrated into
752
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:20.280
that joy. And so you can think of movement as
753
00:35:20.300 --> 00:35:23.239
an opportunity to get both of those at once. And
754
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.750
then to just start and experiment and see what resonates
755
00:35:26.789 --> 00:35:29.309
with you. There is some research suggesting that it takes
756
00:35:29.570 --> 00:35:33.090
six weeks to get hooked on exercise for your brain
757
00:35:33.130 --> 00:35:35.280
to literally change in a way that that makes you
758
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.420
want to exercise if you have never exercised before. It
759
00:35:38.500 --> 00:35:41.780
might take six weeks to really find out if this
760
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:43.960
is for you. And so anything you can do to
761
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.980
make the process more enjoyable while you get there, while
762
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.679
your brain is adapting to this new experience, to take
763
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:51.380
that long view.
764
00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.400
Coming up, Kelly talks about the role of joy when
765
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:58.480
it comes to forming new habits. And I get that
766
00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:02.429
might sound a little gauzy, but she'll actually explain how
767
00:36:02.610 --> 00:36:05.159
to do it in real life. She'll also talk about
768
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:09.619
what Q routine reward is, and she'll talk about very
769
00:36:09.659 --> 00:36:11.920
practical steps we can all take to make healthy habit
770
00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:14.699
changes and reach our various goals.
771
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:15.679
After this.
772
00:36:22.250 --> 00:36:25.030
You have in the foregoing used the word enjoy quite
773
00:36:25.070 --> 00:36:27.699
a bit, and I would point out that Joy is
774
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:30.320
in the title of your new book. And I know
775
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:33.920
a little bit about your deep work around habit formation
776
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:34.699
and habit change.
777
00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:35.820
And I know a little bit about.
778
00:36:35.699 --> 00:36:38.519
That because you're the star of this habit change course
779
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:42.539
we're doing on the 10% Happier app. And the reward
780
00:36:42.619 --> 00:36:47.019
systems of the brain can be harnessed to establish new habits.
781
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:47.659
Yes.
782
00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:49.880
So we know that the way new habits get formed
783
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:53.400
is there's something that motivates you to do something. You
784
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.610
practice the behavior and you experience a reward for it.
785
00:36:56.699 --> 00:36:58.679
Like, that's it. That's the secret of habit formation.
786
00:36:58.699 --> 00:37:00.159
Sometimes called cue routine reward.
787
00:37:00.219 --> 00:37:04.000
Yeah. Often when we're talking about an important habit. So,
788
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:05.940
you know, if we're talking about what you pick from
789
00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:09.000
the vending machine, cue sometimes works. But when you're forming
790
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:13.570
a new habit that requires you to really use your
791
00:37:13.690 --> 00:37:18.070
agency and do something different, that cue is often really
792
00:37:18.090 --> 00:37:21.349
an important motivation, a deep motivation. Like there's going to
793
00:37:21.369 --> 00:37:23.429
be no cue in the world that makes you want
794
00:37:23.510 --> 00:37:27.010
to quit smoking, for example, that actually makes you practice
795
00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:31.219
the behavior of resisting the incredible urge to smoke.
796
00:37:31.659 --> 00:37:34.019
So I often will use the word motivation. But so
797
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:35.059
then you do your behavior.
798
00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:38.840
And then the reward reinforces it. And over time, the
799
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.710
brain learns this is something we do. And your brain
800
00:37:41.769 --> 00:37:44.469
changes in ways that makes it more automatic and often
801
00:37:44.510 --> 00:37:47.769
more enjoyable or at least more effortless. So that reward,
802
00:37:48.329 --> 00:37:52.469
often we think about rewarding ourselves through extrinsic rewards, almost
803
00:37:52.510 --> 00:37:54.719
like we will bribe ourselves to do a new behavior.
804
00:37:54.739 --> 00:37:57.699
And I always encourage people to look for the joy
805
00:37:57.739 --> 00:38:01.070
that's already intrinsic to the new behavior and And joy
806
00:38:01.110 --> 00:38:03.050
can take the form of pleasure. So you can look
807
00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:05.969
for ways to make the new habit or behavior more
808
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.820
actually pleasurable. So, you know, if you want to eat healthier,
809
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:12.539
you should make sure that the food tastes good. You know,
810
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.579
go for the most delicious version of whatever your new
811
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:18.039
diet is going to be. And to try to like
812
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:22.030
pack into that process, whether it's grocery shopping or cooking
813
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:25.030
or who you eat that healthy food with, pack in
814
00:38:25.070 --> 00:38:27.650
as much pleasure as you can, because that's one type
815
00:38:27.690 --> 00:38:30.789
of brain reward. But there's also the joy that comes
816
00:38:30.869 --> 00:38:35.260
from doing something that's consistent with your values and your goals. So,
817
00:38:35.420 --> 00:38:37.099
you know, you said you feel really good when you're
818
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:40.440
done with a Peloton ride. That is a reinforcement. That
819
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:42.679
is a form of joy to pause for a moment
820
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:44.889
and be like, I did that. I'm glad I did it.
821
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.320
Even just saying I'm glad I did it is a.
822
00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:48.019
Form of joy.
823
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:49.019
So celebration is important.
824
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:51.219
Yeah, celebration. Celebration and appreciation.
825
00:38:51.820 --> 00:38:53.789
Because we can let it go. I sort of like,
826
00:38:53.889 --> 00:38:55.829
I felt good for a nanosecond, but then I'm checking
827
00:38:55.849 --> 00:38:59.760
my email. So we can maybe... savor that as a
828
00:38:59.900 --> 00:39:02.539
way to more deeply ingrain the habit.
829
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.239
And I think that's one of the reasons why people
830
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:06.880
so often take selfies after a workout. I think it's
831
00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:09.440
not necessarily to brag. I mean, I take way more
832
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:11.550
workout selfies than I would ever share with other people
833
00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:14.349
because there's something about that moment where you realize you're
834
00:39:14.389 --> 00:39:17.510
taking a picture of the version of you that did
835
00:39:17.570 --> 00:39:18.329
something hard.
836
00:39:18.449 --> 00:39:20.690
I'm tough. I did it. I'm smiling.
837
00:39:20.730 --> 00:39:22.610
Or maybe this is who I did it with, you know,
838
00:39:22.670 --> 00:39:25.070
and I spent this time with that person. So selfies
839
00:39:25.110 --> 00:39:26.360
can be a great way to do it too. Or
840
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:29.449
going back to eating healthier, take a picture of your meal.
841
00:39:29.659 --> 00:39:33.119
And that can be a way to slow down and
842
00:39:33.179 --> 00:39:35.980
celebrate what you did. But I also think there's joy
843
00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:39.980
that comes from meaning. It's not just the pride and
844
00:39:40.019 --> 00:39:43.460
satisfaction of having done it, but really understanding what it means.
845
00:39:43.579 --> 00:39:47.340
And that's why getting clear about your motivation is so important.
846
00:39:47.420 --> 00:39:51.019
Because There can be nine different reasons you would want
847
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:53.550
a new habit, and one of them is going to
848
00:39:53.590 --> 00:39:54.780
be more powerful than the others.
849
00:39:55.190 --> 00:39:58.130
I want to stop and just put a big exclamation
850
00:39:58.170 --> 00:40:00.690
point on the point you're raising now. I really want
851
00:40:00.710 --> 00:40:03.650
to signpost this because a huge part, if not the
852
00:40:04.050 --> 00:40:07.849
centerpiece of your, as I understand it, your philosophy around
853
00:40:07.889 --> 00:40:12.369
habit change is figuring out your deepest motivation for why
854
00:40:12.429 --> 00:40:14.909
you want to do something. Actually, habit change, which we
855
00:40:14.969 --> 00:40:19.760
can sometimes think of as this superficial, hacky, thing actually
856
00:40:19.780 --> 00:40:26.110
in your worldview is a moment for profound reflection.
857
00:40:26.289 --> 00:40:26.530
Yeah.
858
00:40:26.789 --> 00:40:29.710
And I think even the choosing of the habit is
859
00:40:29.730 --> 00:40:33.170
a time for deep reflection that if somebody's listening now
860
00:40:33.210 --> 00:40:36.170
and they have their new year's resolution, it's time to think,
861
00:40:36.289 --> 00:40:38.989
did you pick the right resolution? Is this something that
862
00:40:39.030 --> 00:40:41.230
is going to enhance your daily life? Is it going
863
00:40:41.250 --> 00:40:43.360
to help you get closer to your goals? Is this
864
00:40:43.389 --> 00:40:45.599
really the right thing to put your energy and attention toward?
865
00:40:46.539 --> 00:40:49.070
And if it is, you'll be able to find a
866
00:40:49.289 --> 00:40:53.150
motivation that really carries some energy with it and that
867
00:40:53.190 --> 00:40:56.730
will give you strength when you're exhausted, when it's difficult,
868
00:40:56.789 --> 00:40:59.280
when you're stressed out, when other people are putting pressure
869
00:40:59.340 --> 00:40:59.619
on you.
870
00:41:00.579 --> 00:41:01.889
So talk to us.
871
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:04.900
I mean, I know in the 10% Happier app course,
872
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.619
we have guided meditations that help people kind of get
873
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:11.070
clear on what their deepest motivation is. is, but just
874
00:41:11.090 --> 00:41:13.349
practically speaking right now, if I want to think about
875
00:41:13.590 --> 00:41:18.010
why I want to establish an exercise habit, how do
876
00:41:18.030 --> 00:41:21.070
I get clear on this sort of profound stuff rather
877
00:41:21.110 --> 00:41:22.710
than I just want a six pack?
878
00:41:22.989 --> 00:41:25.090
I often start people, I tell them, okay, forget the
879
00:41:25.130 --> 00:41:25.889
habit for a moment.
880
00:41:26.670 --> 00:41:29.110
What are the most important roles and relationships in your
881
00:41:29.130 --> 00:41:31.409
life right now? Get people to think about what they are.
882
00:41:31.690 --> 00:41:34.510
What are the most important personal goals that you're pursuing?
883
00:41:34.949 --> 00:41:37.670
Are you on a path professionally or personally? Is there
884
00:41:37.710 --> 00:41:40.800
something in your life that that is causing pain that
885
00:41:40.820 --> 00:41:43.519
you want to change in an important way. To reflect
886
00:41:43.579 --> 00:41:45.579
on questions like that, or is there a version of
887
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:49.900
you that you can envision yourself becoming? Like a version
888
00:41:49.940 --> 00:41:51.539
of you that you want to show up in the
889
00:41:51.579 --> 00:41:54.280
world as? And people will often say things like, yes,
890
00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:57.280
I want to be the more adventurous version of myself or,
891
00:41:57.300 --> 00:41:59.719
you know, the more compassionate version of myself or something
892
00:41:59.739 --> 00:42:02.929
like that. And so you ask yourself questions about really
893
00:42:02.989 --> 00:42:05.570
what matters to you and what direction are you trying
894
00:42:05.590 --> 00:42:08.650
to move in life? Then you look at this habit
895
00:42:08.670 --> 00:42:11.929
and And you ask yourself, what does that have to
896
00:42:11.969 --> 00:42:14.369
do with the things that I've identified as important to me?
897
00:42:14.389 --> 00:42:17.050
And if it's a good habit for you at this
898
00:42:17.090 --> 00:42:19.380
time in your life, you will be able to drill
899
00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:23.130
down and see some important connections. And that becomes the
900
00:42:23.190 --> 00:42:25.989
most powerful motivation. And if it's not the right habit,
901
00:42:26.030 --> 00:42:27.909
if you picked it because you read in a magazine
902
00:42:27.949 --> 00:42:30.050
it was a good idea to drink however many glasses
903
00:42:30.090 --> 00:42:33.260
of water a day, but you don't actually like deeply
904
00:42:33.300 --> 00:42:35.860
believe it's going to change your energy and health in
905
00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:37.659
a way that makes you a better parent or whatever
906
00:42:37.699 --> 00:42:40.639
like that motivation is, why would you spend your precious
907
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:44.659
energy cultivating that habit? So I think that in many ways,
908
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.110
choosing the right habit is as important as figuring out
909
00:42:47.550 --> 00:42:48.670
how to nail the habit.
910
00:42:49.730 --> 00:42:51.210
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me
911
00:42:51.289 --> 00:42:55.489
to take habit formation out of the realm of extrinsic
912
00:42:55.550 --> 00:43:00.579
motivation into intrinsic motivation. So if I I'm exercising because,
913
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.840
you know, I feel insufficient and inferior because I keep
914
00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:06.909
looking at the cover of Men's Health magazine and those
915
00:43:06.949 --> 00:43:09.949
guys have bigger deltoids than I do. That might not
916
00:43:10.329 --> 00:43:13.969
be fuel that actually lasts too long, but exercising because
917
00:43:14.010 --> 00:43:16.250
I have this deep desire, which I do, to be
918
00:43:16.289 --> 00:43:18.909
around for when my son gets married. Well, then that
919
00:43:18.989 --> 00:43:21.519
seems like a renewable source of energy that when I
920
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:25.710
have my inevitable failures and failures, twists and turns, I
921
00:43:25.750 --> 00:43:28.309
can draw upon that in a way that my feelings
922
00:43:28.329 --> 00:43:30.010
of inferiority probably won't fuel me.
923
00:43:30.030 --> 00:43:32.590
And here's the thing that I think people don't understand.
924
00:43:32.730 --> 00:43:37.800
It's not just that that motivation might help you exercise longer.
925
00:43:37.929 --> 00:43:40.219
There's research showing, yes, that's probably the case, that that
926
00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:43.179
motivation will work for you better in the long term.
927
00:43:43.219 --> 00:43:44.139
The more profound motivation.
928
00:43:44.179 --> 00:43:47.440
Yeah, than feeling shame or stigma or self-judgment about your appearance.
929
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:49.780
There's plenty of studies that show that. But the other
930
00:43:49.820 --> 00:43:52.019
thing I think people don't think about is if you
931
00:43:52.059 --> 00:43:52.840
choose a habit.
932
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:53.380
You're trying to form.
933
00:43:54.099 --> 00:43:58.400
and you link it to a motivation that reinforces your
934
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:01.840
own suffering, you are building a habit of reinforcing your
935
00:44:01.860 --> 00:44:04.969
own suffering. So if you try to link exercise to
936
00:44:05.489 --> 00:44:07.389
feeling bad about yourself and the way that your body
937
00:44:07.429 --> 00:44:11.349
looks and internalizing societal stigma and shame, you're not just
938
00:44:11.389 --> 00:44:13.710
building the exercise habit, you're building that habit.
939
00:44:13.730 --> 00:44:15.429
You're building the shame habit.
940
00:44:15.449 --> 00:44:18.500
Yeah, and even if somehow it gets you to work out,
941
00:44:20.210 --> 00:44:23.710
You can't separate the habit that you're learning. You may
942
00:44:23.789 --> 00:44:27.280
get an exercise habit, but your brain is also learning,
943
00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:29.500
this is how I control myself.
944
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:31.739
I control myself through shame and stigma.
945
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:34.960
And so I feel like in many ways, habit formation
946
00:44:35.019 --> 00:44:37.980
or New Year's resolutions are an opportunity to practice the
947
00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:41.260
habit of a different way of being with yourself.
948
00:44:41.710 --> 00:44:43.570
And you can choose almost any habit.
949
00:44:44.210 --> 00:44:47.230
And go through that process of finding a motivation that
950
00:44:47.309 --> 00:44:50.969
feels positive and meaningful, learning how to use that motivation.
951
00:44:51.369 --> 00:44:53.630
You could use that motivation to do almost anything and
952
00:44:53.650 --> 00:44:55.269
you would be building a habit that's meaningful.
953
00:44:55.530 --> 00:44:55.750
Right.
954
00:44:55.889 --> 00:44:58.769
I've long been sort of reflexively and maybe not that
955
00:44:58.789 --> 00:45:01.530
thoughtfully anti-New Year's resolution because I feel like if it
956
00:45:01.570 --> 00:45:04.030
matters to you, you do the thing or you would
957
00:45:04.190 --> 00:45:06.610
endeavor to do the thing. So this is just like
958
00:45:06.650 --> 00:45:09.329
an artificial date on a calendar, which is, of course,
959
00:45:09.429 --> 00:45:14.530
itself artificial. And yet, if you're using the artificiality to
960
00:45:14.610 --> 00:45:20.429
do a profound dive into what actually matters to you, well,
961
00:45:20.469 --> 00:45:22.090
that sounds pretty good to me.
962
00:45:22.110 --> 00:45:23.210
Yeah, I agree.
963
00:45:23.230 --> 00:45:25.150
I mean, I love fresh starts. You can do it
964
00:45:25.210 --> 00:45:26.750
at New Year's. You can do it for back to school.
965
00:45:26.769 --> 00:45:28.269
You can do it for the beginning of the week.
966
00:45:28.429 --> 00:45:30.829
And I think that, you know, the practice that I
967
00:45:30.869 --> 00:45:33.650
do around New Year's is actually choosing a word or
968
00:45:33.690 --> 00:45:38.190
a theme for the year that is the year-long version
969
00:45:38.210 --> 00:45:39.530
of what I do when I wake up in the morning.
970
00:45:39.909 --> 00:45:41.860
So I think about that word that I want to,
971
00:45:41.909 --> 00:45:44.500
when I'm making choices, do I say yes to this
972
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:44.920
or no?
973
00:45:45.099 --> 00:45:47.059
Who do I spend time with? Whatever the choices I'm
974
00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:47.760
making throughout the.
975
00:45:47.699 --> 00:45:50.559
Whole year, I have a word that I can use
976
00:45:50.619 --> 00:45:51.969
to help me make that decision.
977
00:45:52.570 --> 00:45:54.570
That has been more effective for me, but it is
978
00:45:54.630 --> 00:45:55.449
a kind of resolve.
979
00:45:56.369 --> 00:46:00.429
Okay, so we've talked about joy as something to tune into, which,
980
00:46:00.449 --> 00:46:03.369
by the way, your meditation practice can really, that self-awareness
981
00:46:03.409 --> 00:46:06.710
that's generated through meditation can really help you tune into
982
00:46:06.730 --> 00:46:09.710
the joy, which can then keep you doing the habit
983
00:46:09.750 --> 00:46:11.590
that you want to do. We've talked on an even
984
00:46:11.650 --> 00:46:16.590
deeper level and not disconnected about doing a look at
985
00:46:16.630 --> 00:46:18.590
your life and figuring out what it is that you
986
00:46:18.610 --> 00:46:22.829
truly care about and harnessing your habit change agenda to that.
987
00:46:23.539 --> 00:46:25.400
Let's just get a sort of a little bit more
988
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:29.889
practical because you also talk about ways that once you've
989
00:46:30.489 --> 00:46:32.909
taken a look at what really matters to you, there
990
00:46:32.949 --> 00:46:35.730
are more practical steps that you can sort of more
991
00:46:35.789 --> 00:46:39.280
small bore steps you can take to ease your path.
992
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:40.820
And a lot of them have to do with changing
993
00:46:40.860 --> 00:46:42.940
your environment. Can you go for that?
994
00:46:43.579 --> 00:46:45.519
Yeah, so if you're clear that there's a change you
995
00:46:45.539 --> 00:46:47.099
want to make or a goal you want to reach,
996
00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:49.460
to start to think about your environment as something that
997
00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:53.300
is always influencing you, either supporting you or maybe sabotaging you.
998
00:46:54.210 --> 00:46:56.030
And one of the first steps I encourage people to
999
00:46:56.070 --> 00:46:59.920
do is put a physical reminder in their environment.
1000
00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:03.860
That will literally just remind them of what their goal
1001
00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:05.389
is or what the new behavior is.
1002
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:06.900
One of the things people talk about is like putting
1003
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:07.579
your sneakers out.
1004
00:47:07.860 --> 00:47:10.260
Yeah, and that's actually a tool. So that could serve
1005
00:47:10.300 --> 00:47:13.320
two purposes. You had mentioned your son is a motivation
1006
00:47:13.340 --> 00:47:16.079
for exercising. So it could also be a picture of
1007
00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:19.500
your son near where you keep your sneakers. That may
1008
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:21.989
be the thing that you need to remember. And then
1009
00:47:22.030 --> 00:47:25.449
the shoes are actually creating an environment that supports your
1010
00:47:25.469 --> 00:47:30.219
goals because that's the behavior that you really want to facilitate.
1011
00:47:30.619 --> 00:47:33.159
But I think that first step is people will sometimes
1012
00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:35.420
write a word out or something like that, or it
1013
00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:37.159
could be a picture of a place that makes them
1014
00:47:37.219 --> 00:47:39.780
feel a certain way, or it could be a memento,
1015
00:47:39.860 --> 00:47:42.900
some object from your life that's meaningful to you that
1016
00:47:42.940 --> 00:47:45.539
reminds you what you want in your life in the
1017
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:48.820
future to put that somewhere so that you can remember
1018
00:47:48.860 --> 00:47:51.469
the motivation as well. And then look for ways that
1019
00:47:51.489 --> 00:47:56.409
your environment can literally, concretely support your goals. And that's
1020
00:47:56.469 --> 00:47:59.570
about putting the sneakers out or getting the right food
1021
00:47:59.670 --> 00:48:03.349
in your fridge or getting the technology that you need
1022
00:48:03.369 --> 00:48:05.590
or figuring out what it is so that when you
1023
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.179
go about your life, there are things that when you
1024
00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:11.500
get distracted or when you're tired, you have this kind
1025
00:48:11.539 --> 00:48:12.519
of support.
1026
00:48:12.260 --> 00:48:13.500
Embedded in your environment.
1027
00:48:15.219 --> 00:48:15.639
Another thing.
1028
00:48:16.289 --> 00:48:19.010
Aspect of a lot of our environments is other people.
1029
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:23.139
So I found in my marriage that my wife and
1030
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:26.719
I work out together. That makes it much more seamless.
1031
00:48:27.420 --> 00:48:30.579
And we sometimes embark upon, you know, we decide, well,
1032
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:32.090
we're going to try to not do so much late
1033
00:48:32.150 --> 00:48:32.710
night snacking.
1034
00:48:33.050 --> 00:48:33.789
We do it together.
1035
00:48:33.809 --> 00:48:36.969
And you've talked about social connection as being part of
1036
00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:38.510
habit change. Can you say more?
1037
00:48:38.869 --> 00:48:40.610
Yeah. I mean, so first of all, social support is
1038
00:48:40.650 --> 00:48:43.469
incredibly helpful for any change. If you have someone in
1039
00:48:43.510 --> 00:48:46.780
your life who shares your goal and is doing it
1040
00:48:46.820 --> 00:48:49.829
with you, or who simply believes in your goal and
1041
00:48:49.889 --> 00:48:52.170
is willing to support you, you have a much better
1042
00:48:52.190 --> 00:48:54.760
chance of succeeding. And I think those are two different
1043
00:48:54.860 --> 00:48:57.800
types of social support to think about. If there's actually
1044
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:59.980
someone who will do it with you, you can almost
1045
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:02.619
in a way outsource some of the usual willpower we
1046
00:49:02.739 --> 00:49:04.869
use that because they'll remind you of it.
1047
00:49:05.110 --> 00:49:07.349
They'll take care of some of the logistics of it maybe.
1048
00:49:07.369 --> 00:49:10.230
And then you also get that reward to build the
1049
00:49:10.269 --> 00:49:12.949
habit that comes from the social contact and the pleasure
1050
00:49:12.989 --> 00:49:15.130
that you get from that. But also it can be
1051
00:49:15.230 --> 00:49:16.969
useful to know who in your life supports you in
1052
00:49:17.010 --> 00:49:19.610
making this change. Maybe you're the only one who is
1053
00:49:19.650 --> 00:49:21.679
making it. or the only one who needs to make it.
1054
00:49:22.260 --> 00:49:24.099
And that you can ask people to support you in
1055
00:49:24.139 --> 00:49:28.440
particular ways, maybe to stop sabotaging you in particular ways,
1056
00:49:29.219 --> 00:49:32.300
or to give you friendly reminders, helpful reminders.
1057
00:49:32.420 --> 00:49:33.139
Hold you accountable.
1058
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:35.000
Yeah, in a positive way.
1059
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:37.059
Yeah, like by asking how it's going and is there
1060
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:39.239
anything I can do to support it and by celebrating
1061
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:41.639
any successes with you. And, you know, I feel like
1062
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:43.909
both of those are really important for any type of
1063
00:49:43.949 --> 00:49:44.639
behavior change.
1064
00:49:45.699 --> 00:49:48.969
Another thing that's huge for you, and we go into
1065
00:49:48.989 --> 00:49:51.929
this in depth in the course on the app, is
1066
00:49:52.530 --> 00:49:55.989
self-compassion or let's just say the disutility of shame.
1067
00:49:56.909 --> 00:49:58.309
Can you hold forth on that for a moment?
1068
00:49:58.530 --> 00:50:00.269
Because I think a lot of us use habit formation
1069
00:50:00.329 --> 00:50:03.349
as a fiesta of self-judgment.
1070
00:50:04.190 --> 00:50:07.909
Yeah, so many of us think that shame and self-criticism
1071
00:50:07.949 --> 00:50:11.289
are motivating. And in part, that's because when we're feeling
1072
00:50:11.309 --> 00:50:16.780
ashamed or we're feeling self-critical, it feels so bad that
1073
00:50:16.860 --> 00:50:20.739
we are really motivated in that moment to get rid
1074
00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:21.480
of that feeling.
1075
00:50:21.900 --> 00:50:23.780
And we might even make a vow to change.
1076
00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:28.789
But studies show that that place of stigma or shame
1077
00:50:28.889 --> 00:50:33.599
or self-criticism, it's really disempowering. It's almost like throwing someone
1078
00:50:33.739 --> 00:50:36.079
into a hole and then taking away any ladder they
1079
00:50:36.099 --> 00:50:37.900
could have to climb out of it. And you're just
1080
00:50:37.940 --> 00:50:40.280
kind of stuck in that hole, feeling bad and looking
1081
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:42.260
for an escape without the resources you need.
1082
00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:42.880
To get out of the hole.
1083
00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:46.750
You know, what we know is much more effective is
1084
00:50:46.769 --> 00:50:50.369
it's sometimes called self-compassion, but like you had that allergic
1085
00:50:50.389 --> 00:50:52.650
reaction to even the word heart. I think a lot
1086
00:50:52.690 --> 00:50:55.170
of people have an allergic reaction to the word self-compassion.
1087
00:50:55.590 --> 00:50:59.530
Many people think it sounds like self-indulgence.
1088
00:50:58.590 --> 00:50:59.670
Or I don't know.
1089
00:50:59.690 --> 00:51:03.760
The approach that I encourage people to take is to
1090
00:51:03.820 --> 00:51:08.119
think about someone who believes in you and sees the
1091
00:51:08.139 --> 00:51:12.000
best in you, sees your potential and really, really wants
1092
00:51:12.019 --> 00:51:14.989
you to succeed and at your own goals, wants to
1093
00:51:15.070 --> 00:51:20.269
see you be happy, be healthy, and thrive. What would
1094
00:51:20.409 --> 00:51:24.840
that person do? And you do that for yourself. And
1095
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.659
part of self-compassion is also find the people in your
1096
00:51:27.699 --> 00:51:30.019
life who feel that way about you or go out
1097
00:51:30.059 --> 00:51:32.590
and get someone like a coach or a mentor. That
1098
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.050
self-compassion is about choosing to believe that you have the
1099
00:51:36.070 --> 00:51:39.559
capacity to change and grow. being willing to remind yourself
1100
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:41.739
of what matters to you, even when you're in that
1101
00:51:41.780 --> 00:51:44.820
pain point of feeling like you let yourself down, and
1102
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:49.320
having the courage to get back engaged with your goal,
1103
00:51:49.739 --> 00:51:52.480
even when it would be easier to give up and say,
1104
00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:54.860
I don't really care, or I'm not dealing with this
1105
00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:57.760
right now. And going back, we started off talking a
1106
00:51:57.780 --> 00:52:00.550
little bit about compassion as a kind of courage. And
1107
00:52:00.570 --> 00:52:03.989
you think about why we have compassion as a human instinct.
1108
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:08.360
It is literally a form of embodied courage so that
1109
00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:11.739
we will approach someone else's suffering rather than try to
1110
00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:15.429
protect ourselves and not get involved. We have a compassionate instinct,
1111
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:18.010
so when we see suffering, we will be brave and
1112
00:52:18.030 --> 00:52:20.949
we will act. And that's the definition of self-compassion that
1113
00:52:21.030 --> 00:52:23.849
I like, that we have these other instincts that can
1114
00:52:23.909 --> 00:52:27.150
be destructive when we're suffering, when we're feeling bad about
1115
00:52:27.190 --> 00:52:29.739
a mistake we made or we're feeling hopeless about change.
1116
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:32.880
And we tend to want to escape those feelings and
1117
00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:36.300
we look for the exit route or that self-compassion is...
1118
00:52:37.130 --> 00:52:39.469
I am going to find the version of myself who
1119
00:52:39.530 --> 00:52:42.750
is brave and is going to act in this moment
1120
00:52:43.329 --> 00:52:44.750
to protect my well-being.
1121
00:52:45.349 --> 00:52:46.369
And that's how I define it.
1122
00:52:47.590 --> 00:52:50.010
What does this look like? So how would we actually
1123
00:52:50.179 --> 00:52:53.900
practice self-compassion? Because the case you just made, my view
1124
00:52:53.940 --> 00:52:54.719
is unimpeachable.
1125
00:52:55.460 --> 00:52:56.030
How do I do it?
1126
00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:59.300
Yeah, so it starts by recognizing suffering. I mean, I
1127
00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:02.440
would basically use my process model of compassion. So you
1128
00:53:02.460 --> 00:53:05.340
don't need self-compassion until you are in a moment of
1129
00:53:05.739 --> 00:53:09.150
where maybe you're beating yourself up over some mistake you
1130
00:53:09.170 --> 00:53:10.849
made or you didn't do what you said you were
1131
00:53:10.869 --> 00:53:14.329
going to do. So maybe you notice yourself saying like,
1132
00:53:14.369 --> 00:53:17.070
what's the point? Or you always do this. You always
1133
00:53:17.110 --> 00:53:18.710
say you're going to, and then you never do. It's
1134
00:53:18.750 --> 00:53:21.760
because you never will. Whatever that inner dialogue is. And
1135
00:53:21.780 --> 00:53:23.000
it's not always verbal, right?
1136
00:53:23.019 --> 00:53:23.980
Sometimes it's a feeling.
1137
00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:28.880
But you notice that and you bring the same presence
1138
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:31.320
of mind that you would bring to someone else's suffering
1139
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:33.590
if you wanted to offer compassion. That is, you have
1140
00:53:33.619 --> 00:53:36.610
to immediately not fight it but take a breath with
1141
00:53:36.739 --> 00:53:41.199
it and allow yourself to be with it and recognize, okay,
1142
00:53:41.260 --> 00:53:46.059
this is a moment of suffering. And then the next
1143
00:53:46.099 --> 00:53:49.579
step of self-compassion is often about trying to get some
1144
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:54.809
distance from that over-identification we can have with our own pain,
1145
00:53:54.889 --> 00:53:57.329
where it feels like we're drowning in it. And a
1146
00:53:57.550 --> 00:54:00.849
tool that is often recommended is the perspective of common humanity.
1147
00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:04.039
So you're beating yourself up, saying like, I'm feeling bad
1148
00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:04.980
about myself right now.
1149
00:54:05.260 --> 00:54:05.920
This is hard.
1150
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:09.519
That you say, I'm not the only one. This is
1151
00:54:09.579 --> 00:54:11.880
part of being human. This is part of the process
1152
00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:15.659
of change. And there are countless other people right now
1153
00:54:16.179 --> 00:54:19.880
who are struggling with this process or this goal or
1154
00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:23.199
even harder addictions and habits that they are trying to
1155
00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:27.079
work with. And to take some strength from that, and
1156
00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:30.170
I often will go a step further and And think
1157
00:54:30.449 --> 00:54:35.440
maybe in some way, my ability to break this trap
1158
00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:40.300
I'm in right now of self-criticism or self-doubt or fear,
1159
00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:44.260
my willingness to try to be brave and strong in
1160
00:54:44.300 --> 00:54:48.019
this moment could help all of those other people too.
1161
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:49.619
And I don't need to know how. That's sort of
1162
00:54:49.659 --> 00:54:53.139
like the Tonglen mindset of self-compassion. So I'm going to
1163
00:54:53.219 --> 00:54:58.789
imagine that my current act of mindfulness and self-compassion is
1164
00:54:58.849 --> 00:55:02.679
somehow empowering all of us who are in the same boat.
1165
00:55:03.320 --> 00:55:05.039
And then you ask yourself, so what's the next step
1166
00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:07.559
I can take? What do I need right now? What
1167
00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:11.360
can I do that reinforces that I am committed.
1168
00:55:11.059 --> 00:55:12.880
To this, that is a positive action?
1169
00:55:12.909 --> 00:55:15.550
And often I think when we talk about self-compassion, you
1170
00:55:15.570 --> 00:55:19.610
will hear people almost talk about it as like that
1171
00:55:19.710 --> 00:55:23.710
extrinsic reward again, like an act of self-kindness, like take
1172
00:55:23.730 --> 00:55:27.119
a bubble bath or give yourself a treat. well, okay,
1173
00:55:27.159 --> 00:55:29.380
if the bubble bath has something to do with why
1174
00:55:29.420 --> 00:55:31.650
you're suffering in the first place, but I think it's
1175
00:55:31.670 --> 00:55:34.050
a more important act of self-compassion. If you do something
1176
00:55:34.070 --> 00:55:36.690
in that moment, that's consistent with your goal, that you
1177
00:55:36.710 --> 00:55:39.909
get back on track, whether it's choosing health or repairing
1178
00:55:39.929 --> 00:55:42.809
a relationship. I mean, whatever it is, don't think about
1179
00:55:42.909 --> 00:55:48.679
externally bribing yourself or soothing yourself as the choice of self-kindness.
1180
00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:52.059
The truly self-kind thing to do is start to make
1181
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:54.480
amends in the direction of whatever.
1182
00:55:54.630 --> 00:55:56.190
Caused the self-judgment in the first place.
1183
00:55:56.210 --> 00:55:58.090
Let me make that concrete, because the thing I've been
1184
00:55:58.139 --> 00:55:59.780
working on for a long time is, as you know,
1185
00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:02.219
because we talk about it in the course of the course,
1186
00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:05.679
is mindless eating. So just last night, I had an
1187
00:56:05.699 --> 00:56:08.480
example that I was on plan all day. I did
1188
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:10.480
a pretty good job with my eating what I wanted
1189
00:56:10.500 --> 00:56:12.260
to eat, enjoying it while I was eating it and
1190
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:14.670
feeling good. And then I took my son to see
1191
00:56:14.710 --> 00:56:18.369
a movie and finished his popcorn and then actually ended
1192
00:56:18.409 --> 00:56:22.329
up feeling like just ill. What is the move right there?
1193
00:56:22.369 --> 00:56:24.630
Because that was a moment of suffering. I didn't feel
1194
00:56:24.690 --> 00:56:27.309
good and I felt bad about myself and I was
1195
00:56:27.349 --> 00:56:29.429
kind of beating myself up right there. So how would
1196
00:56:29.469 --> 00:56:31.639
I operationalize your advice in a moment like that?
1197
00:56:31.880 --> 00:56:34.019
And was this while it was actually happening? Like, were
1198
00:56:34.059 --> 00:56:36.940
you alone or were you in the movie theater?
1199
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:40.280
I was in the movie theater, feeling uncomfortable in my pants.
1200
00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:42.179
So you're still with your son, right? Yes. Okay.
1201
00:56:42.619 --> 00:56:44.599
So, because it's different than if you can't fall asleep
1202
00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:46.760
at night and you're replaying it in your mind. I
1203
00:56:46.760 --> 00:56:48.320
actually think it might be a different situation.
1204
00:56:48.340 --> 00:56:48.820
Fair enough.
1205
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:51.960
So I know from having talked with you about this,
1206
00:56:52.099 --> 00:56:55.760
that part of your motivation around this is because you
1207
00:56:55.860 --> 00:56:59.329
want to be more present with your son, right? So
1208
00:56:59.449 --> 00:57:02.389
the moment of self-compassion here, I think, would be to notice, okay,
1209
00:57:02.469 --> 00:57:06.050
so maybe I ate popcorn in this moment of connecting
1210
00:57:06.090 --> 00:57:08.650
with my son that I didn't mean to eat, and
1211
00:57:08.690 --> 00:57:11.469
now I'm feeling uncomfortable in my body. And so you
1212
00:57:11.489 --> 00:57:14.369
just acknowledge that that happened, and you're having this feeling
1213
00:57:14.630 --> 00:57:17.579
that you had wanted to avoid. whatever that feeling is,
1214
00:57:17.659 --> 00:57:21.199
the regret or the physical discomfort. And then go to
1215
00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:23.550
that place. So you've acknowledged it. Go to that place
1216
00:57:23.570 --> 00:57:25.989
of common humanity. Like you could even, you're in a
1217
00:57:26.030 --> 00:57:27.710
movie theater, right? You could be like, I bet half
1218
00:57:27.730 --> 00:57:30.550
the people in this room right now probably have done
1219
00:57:30.590 --> 00:57:33.230
something similar. Like in this, literally in the same boat
1220
00:57:33.250 --> 00:57:33.849
with me right now.
1221
00:57:34.150 --> 00:57:36.130
The first step is noticing, okay, this sucks.
1222
00:57:36.289 --> 00:57:36.610
Yeah.
1223
00:57:36.630 --> 00:57:38.150
This is a bad moment. Second step is.
1224
00:57:38.269 --> 00:57:38.889
Well, yeah. Okay.
1225
00:57:38.929 --> 00:57:40.949
But that language, I don't even know that you need
1226
00:57:40.969 --> 00:57:42.909
to go to this sucks. This is a bad moment.
1227
00:57:43.309 --> 00:57:44.710
I think one of the things we know from the
1228
00:57:44.789 --> 00:57:49.000
science of mindfulness is that affect labeling is really effective,
1229
00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:52.769
that you label how you feel as opposed to judge
1230
00:57:52.849 --> 00:57:55.690
the whole circumstance of it. So rather than this sucks,
1231
00:57:55.789 --> 00:57:59.550
this is a bad moment, I am feeling, and then
1232
00:58:00.110 --> 00:58:01.030
what you're feeling.
1233
00:58:01.579 --> 00:58:04.539
Okay. Loaded and guilty.
1234
00:58:04.599 --> 00:58:08.500
Yeah. What's interesting is that's a more clear label. And
1235
00:58:08.559 --> 00:58:11.429
even just labeling the physical sensations and the emotion is
1236
00:58:11.889 --> 00:58:15.030
The research suggests that starts to change how you experience
1237
00:58:15.050 --> 00:58:16.889
those feelings in your brain in a way that gives
1238
00:58:16.929 --> 00:58:18.389
you a little bit of distance from it.
1239
00:58:18.789 --> 00:58:20.630
Labeling is a great technique of sort of.
1240
00:58:20.750 --> 00:58:23.460
On-the-fly mindfulness that begins to give you a little bit
1241
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:25.079
more space around it. And that can be part of
1242
00:58:25.099 --> 00:58:28.420
a self-compassion practice. So the next step is that common humanity,
1243
00:58:28.460 --> 00:58:30.699
and there's so many ways you can do it. But
1244
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:33.889
then I think, so self-kindness in that moment. So what's
1245
00:58:33.909 --> 00:58:35.849
something you can do to get back on track? I
1246
00:58:35.889 --> 00:58:39.369
mean— One of the reasons that you're interested in working
1247
00:58:39.510 --> 00:58:44.079
with mindless eating is to be less consumed by self-criticism
1248
00:58:44.179 --> 00:58:46.000
so that you can be more present with your son.
1249
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:48.840
So it's anything you could do in that moment, like
1250
00:58:48.940 --> 00:58:52.690
to look at him and think, Wow, I love you.
1251
00:58:52.710 --> 00:58:54.289
I mean, there's so many things you could do in
1252
00:58:54.340 --> 00:58:58.000
that moment that would reflect your goal and motivation and
1253
00:58:58.119 --> 00:59:02.119
also change something about the moment that allows you to
1254
00:59:02.260 --> 00:59:03.949
move beyond the self-recrimination.
1255
00:59:03.969 --> 00:59:05.550
That's one way it could look.
1256
00:59:05.750 --> 00:59:10.010
For somebody else that doesn't have that backstory, maybe it's about...
1257
00:59:10.280 --> 00:59:13.699
looking at the carton of popcorn and thinking about that
1258
00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:16.079
you are grateful that you are able to nourish your
1259
00:59:16.099 --> 00:59:18.800
body and that you are also grateful that you have
1260
00:59:18.820 --> 00:59:21.860
the freedom to not put things into your body that
1261
00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:24.530
you don't want and mindfully throw it out when you
1262
00:59:24.550 --> 00:59:27.369
leave the movie theater. I don't always know what the
1263
00:59:27.429 --> 00:59:29.940
act of self-kindness is going to be, But it's that
1264
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:33.139
thing where you choose to bring something into that moment
1265
00:59:33.780 --> 00:59:37.050
that feels like the opposite of both the self-judgment and
1266
00:59:37.090 --> 00:59:39.190
also whatever that suffering is. So I think of, you know,
1267
00:59:39.210 --> 00:59:44.110
maybe gratitude as an antidote to guilt or empowering yourself
1268
00:59:44.170 --> 00:59:46.639
to take a positive action, like mindfully throwing out the
1269
00:59:46.659 --> 00:59:49.539
bucket and just thinking, I'm going to remember this moment.
1270
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:51.539
I'm going to set the intention to remember this.
1271
00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:51.920
The next time.
1272
00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:54.679
I actually I think I did kind of the first
1273
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:57.050
thing you recommended, which was, you know, I was watching
1274
00:59:57.090 --> 00:59:58.750
my son enjoy the movie. He was kind of dancing
1275
00:59:58.769 --> 01:00:00.889
around to the music. I think he was bothering the
1276
01:00:00.929 --> 01:00:01.869
dude sitting in front of us.
1277
01:00:01.929 --> 01:00:03.409
But anyway, whatever.
1278
01:00:03.530 --> 01:00:05.809
I was really enjoying watching my son dance around. I
1279
01:00:05.849 --> 01:00:07.670
like watching him dance. And he was you know, he
1280
01:00:07.690 --> 01:00:09.909
would talk to me during the movie. So I did
1281
01:00:10.030 --> 01:00:12.309
do all those things. I'm kind of familiar with the
1282
01:00:13.010 --> 01:00:14.829
we've had Kristen Neff on the show. So I'm kind
1283
01:00:14.869 --> 01:00:17.929
of familiar with these steps around self-compassion. And I've been
1284
01:00:18.030 --> 01:00:20.539
trying to do it. What I do find is that
1285
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:23.039
it's a kind of rinse and repeat situation because the
1286
01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:26.619
remorse or self-laceration comes back and.
1287
01:00:26.579 --> 01:00:27.860
I just do it again.
1288
01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:29.340
OK, and so let me I'm going to give you
1289
01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:32.829
a perspective that maybe you're not going to particularly enjoy.
1290
01:00:33.050 --> 01:00:35.909
But here's my perspective on things like this. I don't
1291
01:00:36.070 --> 01:00:38.550
know that the mindless eating that you engaged in last
1292
01:00:38.610 --> 01:00:42.000
night is really having a big effect on your well-being
1293
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:44.179
and your ability to contribute.
1294
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:44.219
To the world.
1295
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:50.550
So sometimes I think self-criticism actually latches onto things that
1296
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:55.869
don't actually matter that much. And sometimes the habit you
1297
01:00:55.909 --> 01:00:58.130
need to train is to let go of something you've
1298
01:00:58.150 --> 01:01:02.190
been trying to control that actually is not as big
1299
01:01:02.230 --> 01:01:05.340
of a deal as we have sort of clung to
1300
01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:09.340
this belief. Sometimes I think the self-critic likes to find
1301
01:01:09.380 --> 01:01:12.219
things that it believes are going to be really difficult
1302
01:01:12.260 --> 01:01:15.800
to change. not the things that are really important to change.
1303
01:01:17.139 --> 01:01:18.639
I guess I understand why you would think I wouldn't
1304
01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:20.570
like that perspective. I actually love that perspective.
1305
01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:22.289
And you said- The inner critic.
1306
01:01:22.030 --> 01:01:24.369
Doesn't like that perspective is what I probably should have said.
1307
01:01:24.429 --> 01:01:24.909
Fair enough.
1308
01:01:25.389 --> 01:01:28.250
In the course of making the course, you actually, there
1309
01:01:28.269 --> 01:01:30.329
was a moment where you said, maybe the habit you
1310
01:01:30.369 --> 01:01:32.869
need to change isn't mindless eating, but self-criticism.
1311
01:01:32.929 --> 01:01:33.190
Yeah.
1312
01:01:33.690 --> 01:01:36.489
Which I think is a very profound, hits me as
1313
01:01:36.829 --> 01:01:39.250
quite a profound insight. And by the way, part of
1314
01:01:39.550 --> 01:01:42.179
one of your many, many sort of not to use
1315
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:44.260
a superficial term, but like kind of talking points or
1316
01:01:44.510 --> 01:01:48.010
insights around habit changes, sometimes you're working on the wrong habit.
1317
01:01:48.289 --> 01:01:50.030
And this may be a case where I'm working on
1318
01:01:50.070 --> 01:01:50.710
the wrong habit.
1319
01:01:51.170 --> 01:01:53.769
And particularly if the inner critic chose the habit, I
1320
01:01:53.809 --> 01:01:56.969
don't know that I would trust that decision. Like if
1321
01:01:56.989 --> 01:01:58.610
the person who's going to be put in charge of
1322
01:01:58.650 --> 01:02:01.010
the habit change is the inner critic, you've probably got
1323
01:02:01.030 --> 01:02:01.769
the wrong habit.
1324
01:02:02.989 --> 01:02:06.639
If what I truly care about is my relationships, first
1325
01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:10.909
and foremost, my relationships with my wife and child, and
1326
01:02:10.949 --> 01:02:14.170
I'm making decisions about how to change based again in
1327
01:02:14.230 --> 01:02:18.449
this deep dive into my own priorities, then mindless eating
1328
01:02:18.489 --> 01:02:22.389
probably isn't going to make the cut. Definitely not before self-criticism,
1329
01:02:22.429 --> 01:02:26.579
which of course obscures my visibility in many ways.
1330
01:02:27.130 --> 01:02:28.909
And one of the reasons why I was so sort
1331
01:02:28.929 --> 01:02:31.769
of cautious in talking with you about this is because
1332
01:02:32.130 --> 01:02:34.829
I can't know. So it could be the case, you know,
1333
01:02:34.869 --> 01:02:37.559
you could be one of the many, many people who
1334
01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:39.380
struggle with a serious eating disorder.
1335
01:02:39.400 --> 01:02:39.780
I don't.
1336
01:02:40.139 --> 01:02:40.800
I don't know that.
1337
01:02:41.139 --> 01:02:43.800
So when someone says they want to work on mindless eating,
1338
01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:46.900
that can be a tremendous source of suffering in your life.
1339
01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:50.150
Mindless eating could be a really important habit to work with.
1340
01:02:50.710 --> 01:02:51.949
And I was just, you know, in talking with you,
1341
01:02:51.969 --> 01:02:53.949
I'm trying to figure out like, why?
1342
01:02:53.969 --> 01:02:55.289
Why make this the focus?
1343
01:02:55.880 --> 01:02:58.480
And it's the thing I hope people will investigate for themselves.
1344
01:02:58.719 --> 01:02:59.960
Because there are a lot of things we're told we
1345
01:02:59.980 --> 01:03:02.059
should control, but frankly, at the end of the day,
1346
01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:04.260
it's a waste of time to try to control them.
1347
01:03:04.409 --> 01:03:07.369
They aren't the thing that's really determining whether you are
1348
01:03:07.449 --> 01:03:09.510
happy in life and whether you are doing what you're
1349
01:03:09.530 --> 01:03:09.869
here for.
1350
01:03:10.289 --> 01:03:10.469
Right.
1351
01:03:10.489 --> 01:03:11.699
And one of the things you said to me is,
1352
01:03:11.710 --> 01:03:14.130
all right, well, if you're uncomfortable in your pants, maybe
1353
01:03:14.190 --> 01:03:16.880
rather than work on mindless eating or exercise to a
1354
01:03:16.909 --> 01:03:19.000
point where you're just taking up too much of your
1355
01:03:19.019 --> 01:03:21.619
time or whatever, maybe just get new pants.
1356
01:03:21.860 --> 01:03:22.019
Yeah.
1357
01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:22.880
Which, amen.
1358
01:03:22.900 --> 01:03:23.059
Amen.
1359
01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:25.699
Some people are uncomfortable with this, so I'm going to
1360
01:03:25.739 --> 01:03:27.809
make you do it anyway, which is you just need
1361
01:03:27.849 --> 01:03:30.610
you to be as self-promotional as possible. Can you plug
1362
01:03:30.909 --> 01:03:33.449
the new book? Can you tell us where you've got
1363
01:03:33.489 --> 01:03:39.949
a TED Talk with 20 million more views? If we
1364
01:03:39.969 --> 01:03:42.679
want to do a deep dive on you, your past books,
1365
01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:43.739
give us everything, please.
1366
01:03:43.760 --> 01:03:45.900
Well, the new book, which I love so much, is
1367
01:03:45.940 --> 01:03:50.300
called The Joy of Movement, How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope,
1368
01:03:50.730 --> 01:03:54.909
Connection and Courage. Previous books include The Willpower Instinct and
1369
01:03:54.949 --> 01:03:57.070
The Upside of Stress. If you are not one of
1370
01:03:57.090 --> 01:03:59.199
those people who has seen the TED Talk, just go
1371
01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:02.539
to TED.com and it's called How to Make Stress Your Friend.
1372
01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:05.280
And then the little known fact is I was practicing
1373
01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:08.550
Tonglen right before the talk. I have always thought that
1374
01:04:08.610 --> 01:04:10.969
one of the reasons it's been so viewed, I'm not
1375
01:04:10.989 --> 01:04:13.130
sure the talk is actually that good, but I feel
1376
01:04:13.150 --> 01:04:16.030
like maybe people can tell that I was doing Tonglen
1377
01:04:16.449 --> 01:04:18.789
and that somehow that elevated the talk. And yeah, you
1378
01:04:18.809 --> 01:04:22.150
can find me on my website at kellymcgonigal.com and all
1379
01:04:22.170 --> 01:04:23.750
of the social media channels under my name.
1380
01:04:24.769 --> 01:04:25.190
You're a star.
1381
01:04:25.369 --> 01:04:29.239
Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Thanks again to Kelly.
1382
01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:31.579
She is a font of wisdom. Thank you as well
1383
01:04:31.599 --> 01:04:33.500
to all the folks who work so incredibly.
1384
01:04:33.059 --> 01:04:34.039
Hard on this show.
1385
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:38.409
10% Happier is produced by Justine Davey, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Kashmir,
1386
01:04:38.489 --> 01:04:42.309
and Lauren Smith. Our senior producer is Marissa Schneiderman. Kimmy
1387
01:04:42.369 --> 01:04:45.469
Regler is our managing producer, and our executive producer is
1388
01:04:45.530 --> 01:04:50.349
Jen Poyant. Scoring and mixing by Peter Bonaventure of Ultraviolet Audio.
1389
01:04:50.849 --> 01:04:52.829
We'll see you all on Friday for a bonus.