From Proxy: Mic Chooses the Wrong Life

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It's the 10% Happier Podcast.
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I'm Dan Harris. Hey, everybody.
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As many of you know, I've been deeply interested in
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recent years by the practice of self-compassion, which sounds a
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little treacly, but actually, in my experience, is life-changing. There's
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a ton of scientific research to back this up. And
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one of the principal practices of self-compassion developed by the
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great Kristen Neff, the researcher who pioneered the concept of
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self-compassion and then led much of the research into it.
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One of the primary practices is called the mindful self-compassion break.
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And the first step is to just wake up to
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the fact that you're suffering in some way or kicking
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your own ass. So the first step is mindfulness. The
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second step I'm going to hold for a second because
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it relates to everything else I'm going to say. The
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third step is to talk to yourself the way you
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would talk to a good friend, which is incredibly impactful.
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But back to the second step. The second step is
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something called common humanity. Just bringing to mind that whatever
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you're dealing with right now, no matter how bespoke or
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odd or idiosyncratic your issue is right now, there are
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millions of other people, odds are, who are dealing with
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the same thing at this very moment. So it's that
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second piece of the mindful self-compassion break this thing down.
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that Kristen Neff calls common humanity. That is at the
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heart of a new podcast that I want to introduce
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you to today. Here's the concept. If you've ever been
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in a situation where you have a problem and you
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have this feeling that you're alone in the problem, that
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nobody else can relate, and that you wish you could
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talk to one person who really, really understands it from
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the inside. So what if in that situation, you had
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your own personal investigative journalist who would scour the world
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for the perfect stranger with just the right experience for
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you to talk to. I would have loved it back
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in 2004 if there was somebody else who could have
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talked to me about what it was like to have
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a coke-fueled panic attack on national television. But anyway, back
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to this podcast I want to introduce you to. It's
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called Proxy, and it provides exactly the service I was
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just describing. It's hosted by Yo-Wei Shaw, who you may
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remember as one of the hosts of the NPR podcast Invisibilia,
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which was super, super interesting. popular, but sadly went away.
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Yo-Wei is back. And on this new show, Proxy, Yo-Wei
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investigates your niche emotional conundrums and puts you into conversation
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with a proxy, a stranger who's been in nearly the
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exact same situation or has some expertise and can hopefully
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help you get unstuck. Yo-Wei calls it emotional investigative journalism,
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a term I've never heard before, but I really like it.
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So that's what we're going to do for you today.
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We're Proxy.
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Before we play you the episode of Proxy, I do
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want to tell you about something I'm doing over on danharris.com
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all week at 4 p.m.
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Eastern.
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I'm going to be doing live guided meditations where I
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focus on specific forms of meditation that were designed by
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the Buddha as an antidote to anxiety. As you may know,
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there are four related meditation practices that are collectively known
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as the Brahma Viharas or divine abodes. Not my preferred branding,
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but really, I found these styles of practice to be
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immensely helpful in my own life, and you can think
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of these four interrelated flavors of meditation as a way
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to take it easier on yourself and more skillfully navigate
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the world. These styles of meditation have stood the test
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of time, having been practiced for 2,600 years, and are
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increasingly being validated by modern science, which suggests these practices
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can have psychological, physiological, and even behavioral benefits. So again,
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I'll be doing live guided meditations today. All week over
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at danharris.com. Like any good drug dealer, I give you
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the first dose for free, meaning Monday's session is open
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to everybody. And then the rest of the week is
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really just for paid subscribers, so you know what to do. Again,
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head on over to Dan Harris and get all the details.
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All right, enough out of me. Let's check out a
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new episode of this new show from Yo-Wei Shaw. It's
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called Proxy.
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Check it out.
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Hello.
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Hey, Bedraggle Podcast spouse. What was your favorite thing about
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mixing this week's episode?
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Oh, my favorite part was that your P-pops are way
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more under control.
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I guess I finally learned as an audio professional to
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not talk directly into the microphone.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Did you learn anything that you're going to put into practice? Um....
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I don't know that I necessarily learned something that I
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could sum up in a single sentence, but it definitely.
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We're trying to sell the show here, Kyle.
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Oh, you didn't let me finish. Yeah, I said nothing
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I could sum up in one sentence because I'm tired
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because I was up till midnight mixing this fucking thing.
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Oh, I see.
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This is Proxy, and I'm Yo-Ai Shaw, your emotional investigative journalist. Today,
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the case of the man filled with regret for the
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life that got away. That's after the break. So there's
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this stereotype about Asians. The stereotype goes, Asian immigrant parent
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wants kid to be doctor or lawyer, while kid wants
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to do something that won't make money and won't bring
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honor to the family. Something shameful. Like podcasting. My parents
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immigrated to the U.S. from Taiwan in the 70s. And
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I assure you, they are complex, multidimensional people. My mom
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loves to wear crop tops. My dad loves to talk
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about how hot my mom is. But this is one
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stereotype they did conform to. Unfortunately, I was terrible at
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math and was still calling my dad to do my
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homework by the time I got to college. I also
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have a terrible memory and would never have passed the
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bar exam. Note. I decided to follow my heart and
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pursue my passion of long-form audio journalism, only to now
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read articles every week titled, Has the Podcast Bubble Finally Burst?
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But still, no regrets. I never, ever think about being
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a lawyer or doctor. The regret that I mostly hear
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around this is from people like my dad, who was
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a doctor but really wanted to be an artist. Which
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is why I was really surprised to hear from an
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Asian with a version of the story I'd never heard before.
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Are you going to use video?
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Because if you do, I'm going to clean up a
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little bit more.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I should have told you. This is
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Mike Nguyen. He works in advertising. And he's also a
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comedian who's known on the internet for roasting himself for
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being a menswear dork. He calls his style American Prosperity Corps.
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How Americans dressed back when the middle class was prosperous.
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So lots of blazers with hand-sewn buttonholes and Alden Cordovan
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horse leather loafers. I don't know what that means, but
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apparently it signals, hello, I take menswear very seriously.
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I do a fashion. Whenever people find out it's a fashion,
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they always make fun of me. My comics make fun
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of me.
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My friends make fun of me.
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I always want to tell these people, hey, I don't
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dress for you guys.
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I dress for Black teenagers, okay? But here's the thing
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about Mike. Even though he followed his heart to pursue
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a creative passion, he's haunted by the life he didn't choose.
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So I feel.
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In my life, I was destined to fulfill the family
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fate of like becoming a doctor. And for various reasons,
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I ended up not becoming a doctor. And ever since then,
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I've just been adrift. You know, sometimes people say, oh,
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you're chasing your dream. No, my dream is to be
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a doctor.
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That's the dream.
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The comedian thing, everything else is second to that.
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Mike is the son of Vietnamese refugees. And growing up,
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he says it was just understood he was going to
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be a doctor.
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Okay, this is the thing that's going to make me
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happy and make my family happy and make my mom
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happy and make the stars align.
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Mike says in Vietnamese culture, there are only a couple
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jobs that bring prestige to the family. And for Mike,
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it felt good to be on this path. Like he
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had a higher calling. Plus, he was good at school.
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He liked science. He cared about people. Everything made sense.
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He still remembers the day it all went south. He
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was a junior at Berkeley, and he was struggling to
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keep up with his pre-med classes.
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I remember I had to take physics. and I was
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sitting outside the physics building, and it was the last
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day before you could drop a class. It was like,
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you know, the second week of school. And I took
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out like a quarter, and I said, if this is heads,
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I'm going to take physics. If this is tails, I'm
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not going to take physics. And it came up heads,
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which means I'm supposed to take physics. And I said, nope,
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not going to do it. And I just walked right
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down to the administration office and I dropped the physics course.
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It's like your body was telling you no.
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I think so.
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The idea of putting myself through that was just like,
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it made me feel sick.
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So I didn't want to do it anymore.
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Mike switched majors to sociology. He graduated college. He got
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a job at a test prep company. He moved to
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New York and got a job in advertising and eventually
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started doing comedy to give him an edge over the
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other copywriters and liked it. He got married. He had
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a kid. Today, Mike is 45. And you know that
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meme about how often men think about the Roman Empire?
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That's what it's like for Mike. But with a career
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that got away. Even though he enjoys working in advertising,
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even though he loves doing comedy, he can't stop thinking
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back to that coin toss. What if he'd stayed in physics?
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What if he just gritted his teeth and gone to
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med school as planned?
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I was watching content on Instagram and I found this
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one guy and he's like a dad fitness influencer type.
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I found out later on that he's also an MD.
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He's like, I'm a doctor and I'm a dad and
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I work out a lot. And I was reading this
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and I was like, hey, you know, he's a content
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creator and a doctor. Maybe I should give it another go.
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And I legit looked up a couple of things. And
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I at least give myself enough credit in that I
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am wise enough to know that I would quickly come
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to the reality that, holy shit, this would be absolutely crazy.
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And I probably wouldn't enjoy it.
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When did this happen?
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That was like last week.
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Oh, my God.
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Yeah, no, it's really always rattling in my mind all
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the time, constantly.
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Mike knows he doesn't want to go to med school,
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but he keeps looking into going to med school because
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he's stuck in a loop. He regrets not becoming a doctor,
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and yet he doesn't actually want to be a doctor.
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I don't know if you've ever done this, but you're
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playing an online video game and you sort of mess
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up your one chance to get the big score or
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kill the boss. And you just have to wait around
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until the game starts over again. It feels like that.
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It feels like, oh, I missed my chance. Well, guess
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I'll just float around and stuff until I get to
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go again.
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Or I die. One of the two. You know, like,
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it's that feeling.
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And that's why Mike came to us. To find him
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a proxy to talk to. A stranger with just the
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right experience with his conundrum and can hopefully help him
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get less stuck. Mike wants to know if there's anything
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he can do to silence the rattling of this regret.
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Or at least anything he can do to make this
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earworm less annoying.
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Is there a way to turn this into something healthy?
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Because I do feel like it's going to be something
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I have to live with. So I'm going to have
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to just come to terms with it.
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Okay, Mike. Thank you for bringing me this case. I
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will try my best to find you a proxy. I
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do have one last question, though. If you had to
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vocalize the sound of this emotional conundrum, what would it be?
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Vocalize the sound?
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Yeah.
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Gosh, it's probably... Let me think here. Okay, what is
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the sound to this feeling? The first thing that comes
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to mind, I don't know if this is totally right...
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You know the elevator muzak waiting sound? Waiting room music
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is what I would describe it as. It's not entirely unpleasant,
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but it's a little boring and a little bit tedious.
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After the break, Mike has a proxy conversation. And we
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attempt to break Mike out of the emotional waiting room
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he's stuck in. Please hold, and Proxy will be right back.
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Six months go by after that first call with Mike.
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Six months of tedious hold music. And then finally, it's
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the day of the Praxi conversation. I log into the
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video call with Mike. You're wearing a robe right now?
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I am wearing this awesome wrap knit cardigan.
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A lot has happened in the six months since we spoke.
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Some good things?
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My daughter was born in August. I can't remember if
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we talked since then.
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And some not-so-good things.
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Yes, I lost my job.
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Oh, I'm so sorry, Mike.
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It's okay. It's okay, yeah.
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That afternoon was definitely scary. It was like a gut punch.
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You know, I did the whole thing, the Asian thing,
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where it's like, did I do something wrong?
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Should I have worked harder?
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Oh, yes, Mike. I know all about it. I made
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a three-part series about getting laid off. Listen to The
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00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:35.769
Layoff Trilogy wherever you get your podcasts. Anyway, Mike says
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after losing his job, he found himself scrolling through Reddit
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one day.
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I don't know how they know.
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Maybe they listen in on our conversations. But Reddit serves
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me up an ad for St.
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George University.
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Do you know this school? It is a Caribbean medical school.
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And it said, are you ready to make the leap
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to medicine? And I was like, I just got laid off.
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I need to provide for my family. Reddit is serving
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up this ad for Caribbean medical schools.
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And I was like, is this it? Am I doing this?
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Did you look up what it would take to go
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to medical school again?
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Yeah.
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I mean, actually, not at the school.
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I just like talked to my friend and just the
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idea of having to like take biology 1A again made
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my stomach sick.
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Wow.
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I do think this is a little bit of the
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grass is always going to be greener.
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00:17:28.450 --> 00:17:30.619
And I know, you know, doctors have very tough lives,
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but it's like, I do want someone to kind of
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just give me a sense check.
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Even if it is like, hey, it's awesome, dude. You
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00:17:38.329 --> 00:17:40.609
fucked up. At least somebody told me.
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00:17:41.609 --> 00:17:45.549
Hold that thought because the proxy's here. Yes. Are you
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00:17:45.569 --> 00:17:46.549
ready for me to let them in?
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00:17:46.910 --> 00:17:47.430
I'm nervous.
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00:17:48.750 --> 00:17:54.940
So the proxy. Now on the show, our job is
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00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:58.920
to help Mike investigate his feelings. We do that by
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00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.519
finding him a proxy to talk to. That could be
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00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.640
a stranger with shared life experience. It could be a
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00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:10.000
researcher who's studied the issue at hand. In Mike's case,
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00:18:10.779 --> 00:18:14.029
I thought about looking for another Asian who struggled with
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00:18:14.069 --> 00:18:18.130
this same kind of regret. But then I thought, maybe
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00:18:18.150 --> 00:18:21.309
it'd be helpful to talk to someone who's studied regret.
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Someone who could help Mike understand what he was feeling
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00:18:26.349 --> 00:18:31.549
and maybe even reframe his relationship with regret. And then
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I came across a regret researcher who was nice enough
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00:18:34.789 --> 00:18:42.279
to agree to this proxy conversation experiment. Hi.
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00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:44.799
Hey. Hey, nice to meet you.
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00:18:45.619 --> 00:18:51.400
Meet Amy Somerville, principal research scientist at Kairos Research and
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00:18:51.460 --> 00:18:55.029
a social cognitive psychologist who used to run a whole
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research lab on regret at Miami University in Ohio.
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So I'm Dr. Amy Somerville. I have a PhD in
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social psychology. I've published one of the most cited papers
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00:19:07.490 --> 00:19:10.509
on regret with my graduate advisor called What We Regret
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00:19:10.549 --> 00:19:14.390
Most and Why, and have done research on regret for,
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00:19:14.410 --> 00:19:17.250
I guess, over 20 years at this point.
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No, I'm already getting very triggered by the fact that
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she introduced herself as doctor.
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So I was like, what? I was like, sheesh.
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I asked Mike to explain his case to Amy and
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00:19:30.579 --> 00:19:33.579
he tells her how he felt destined to become a doctor,
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00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:37.099
how he couldn't keep up with his pre-med classes and
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about that coin toss outside his physics class.
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00:19:40.109 --> 00:19:42.529
And I flipped a coin and I said, if it's heads,
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I will take the class. If it's tails, I will not.
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And it turned out heads. And I said, no, I'm
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still not taking it.
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And I walked.
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Down to the registrar and I dropped the class. And
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it felt awesome. It felt amazing. And that was pretty
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much it.
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I never even looked back after that.
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Except Mike did look back. He can't stop looking back.
335
00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:07.289
That's literally the point of this whole episode.
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00:20:08.109 --> 00:20:09.950
And I always think, what if I had just done that?
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00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.740
There's always that part of me that is like.
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Should I just apply to medical school now?
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00:20:16.579 --> 00:20:21.880
I'm curious, any initial reactions?
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00:20:23.059 --> 00:20:26.039
Yeah, gosh, a lot. So I guess maybe a place
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to start is let me define how I think about regret,
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because I think people come to it with a lot
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00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.720
of different ideas of like what regret means and like
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hashtag no regrets and all of that.
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So in.
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My work, I use a definition from Tom Gilovich and
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Victoria Medvec that I think is awesome. And it says
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00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:50.940
regret has three pieces. The first is that it feels bad.
349
00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:54.799
The second is that it's because you have a thought
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about how things could have been different. And the third
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is that it's because of something that you think you
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could have done differently. And so I think it sounds
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like we're check, check, check.
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00:21:07.789 --> 00:21:08.809
Oh, yeah. And.
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Sort of the technical term for this like thought about
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00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:15.680
how things could have been different is a counterfactual. So, right,
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like literally contrary to the facts. So it's this imagined
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possible world of how things could have been different.
359
00:21:22.660 --> 00:21:23.299
Yeah.
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00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:27.599
Regrets in particular seem to be kind of this combination
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of I had a chance to do something different.
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00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:31.720
Mm-hmm.
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00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.789
That maybe is now kind of a lost opportunity. I
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can't just like instantly fix it. But also it still
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feels like really relevant to my goals and who I am.
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The sense of like, who am I as a person
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00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:47.529
and what is my identity and role in the world? Like,
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00:21:47.769 --> 00:21:51.170
I mean, that's like the big question for everyone. So like,
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of course, that's a thing we all keep wrestling with
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throughout our lives. So it makes sense that things that
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00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.240
really touch on that are going to be places we
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00:21:59.259 --> 00:21:59.859
come back to.
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00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:01.740
Yes.
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00:22:02.579 --> 00:22:03.799
You're looking into my soul, doctor.
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00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:07.049
Not that kind of doctor, just to be clear.
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00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:09.130
Not that kind of doctor, but still.
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00:22:10.349 --> 00:22:14.809
Amy is a psychologist. She doesn't treat people. But once
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00:22:14.869 --> 00:22:18.250
upon a time, Amy actually also wanted to be a
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00:22:18.269 --> 00:22:21.730
doctor like Mike. She was in a pre-med program, and
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00:22:22.130 --> 00:22:24.849
just like Mike, Amy wasn't sure if it was right
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00:22:24.910 --> 00:22:28.470
for her. So during a summer program where she was
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00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:31.210
shadowing doctors, she asked them all a question.
383
00:22:32.009 --> 00:22:34.450
If somebody was on the fence about whether they should
384
00:22:34.470 --> 00:22:36.539
go to med school or do something different, what would
385
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.460
you tell them? And every single one of them told
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00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:44.240
me they should do something different. If you can imagine
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00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:48.920
a life for yourself doing anything other than this, you
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00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:53.900
should go do that. Because it's too hard for too long.
389
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:58.640
But this seems almost like A trick, you know?
390
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:01.440
Well, only the real ones. You, you're a bit of
391
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:02.980
a softie, so you should get out of here. So,
392
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:05.640
you know, it's kind of like also goes up against
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00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:09.420
the way I saw myself. I always was the smart
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00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:13.029
kid in class. And it like took out one of
395
00:23:13.049 --> 00:23:17.269
the legs of my identity. Well, not only am I
396
00:23:17.309 --> 00:23:20.589
not smart, I clearly don't even have the wherewithal or
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00:23:20.650 --> 00:23:22.750
the gumption to do this other thing.
398
00:23:23.690 --> 00:23:25.480
So now... What the hell?
399
00:23:25.900 --> 00:23:30.910
You know, I'm just some guy with great style. Like,
400
00:23:31.009 --> 00:23:31.849
what else can I do?
401
00:23:34.289 --> 00:23:36.890
Well, Mike, if it's okay, I want to go back
402
00:23:36.950 --> 00:23:38.710
to that moment with the coin toss.
403
00:23:39.329 --> 00:23:39.569
Yes.
404
00:23:39.869 --> 00:23:42.089
It seems like you were very certain of how you
405
00:23:42.170 --> 00:23:45.299
felt about that decision in the moment. Like, it just
406
00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.880
felt bad to, like, listen to the coin and stay
407
00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:52.880
in physics. Yes. And that's why you dropped out.
408
00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:53.160
Yep.
409
00:23:53.549 --> 00:23:55.349
And then you said it felt awesome.
410
00:23:55.869 --> 00:23:56.470
It felt awesome.
411
00:23:57.109 --> 00:24:00.970
And so I'm just curious, why do you think you
412
00:24:01.059 --> 00:24:04.579
trusted your gut so much back then? And why aren't
413
00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:06.740
you trusting it now?
414
00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:11.900
I think a lot of it has to do with like,
415
00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:15.160
you're in college, you're like kind of a hedonist, you know,
416
00:24:15.329 --> 00:24:17.309
you're doing a lot of things because it feels good.
417
00:24:17.329 --> 00:24:19.509
You know, it felt good at the time. And I
418
00:24:19.569 --> 00:24:24.019
think sometimes I frame it as that's a, kind of
419
00:24:24.099 --> 00:24:28.240
an immature response that as a rational person, you should
420
00:24:28.299 --> 00:24:30.799
do the thing that may not feel good, but it
421
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.920
is the good thing, the thing that's right for whatever
422
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:36.450
your family or yourself or what have you. And so I,
423
00:24:36.930 --> 00:24:43.829
I discount some of that action because, Hey, we also
424
00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:46.480
grew up Catholic. You can layer that on top as well.
425
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.619
And so things which feel good are probably bad for you.
426
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:51.660
Things that feel bad are probably good for you. You know,
427
00:24:52.089 --> 00:24:54.630
So there is sort of that element as well.
428
00:24:56.650 --> 00:25:00.549
So there's work by a researcher called Tori Higgins, who
429
00:25:01.210 --> 00:25:05.029
basically says we carry with us like two self guides
430
00:25:05.589 --> 00:25:08.690
of what we should be aspiring to. And one of
431
00:25:08.769 --> 00:25:12.470
them is he calls the ideal self. So like what
432
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:16.220
is like the aspirational version of yourself that you like
433
00:25:17.059 --> 00:25:21.400
most want to be? And then what's your ought self?
434
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:24.059
So like, what are the like obligations and duties and
435
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:26.700
the things you feel like you should be? The idea
436
00:25:26.769 --> 00:25:29.240
is that sort of like in general, like our oughts
437
00:25:29.420 --> 00:25:31.549
are kind of easier to repair. Like if there's a
438
00:25:31.630 --> 00:25:34.680
thing you should do, you can just go do it.
439
00:25:35.430 --> 00:25:37.210
I got up last night at 1130 to be like,
440
00:25:37.750 --> 00:25:39.950
oh God, did I close my garage door? It's that
441
00:25:40.009 --> 00:25:42.450
kind of like, oh, did you do the thing? Okay,
442
00:25:42.549 --> 00:25:45.970
now I can forget it. And there's some work in
443
00:25:45.990 --> 00:25:50.720
the regret science that actually for most people, the things
444
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:55.250
that we regret most over time are related to our
445
00:25:55.529 --> 00:25:59.069
ideal self. And it's sort of interesting to me that
446
00:25:59.289 --> 00:26:02.029
it sounds like it's kind of like your parents' ideal
447
00:26:02.769 --> 00:26:06.990
more than your ideal, but also it kind of became
448
00:26:07.069 --> 00:26:12.240
ingrained in you both as an obligation and as because
449
00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:14.720
of your vision of who you are in the family,
450
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.640
that kind of like meeting their ideal became your ideal?
451
00:26:17.660 --> 00:26:21.069
Oh, a hundred percent. I have a bunch of questions
452
00:26:21.089 --> 00:26:22.609
for you. I hope that's okay. Yeah.
453
00:26:23.710 --> 00:26:25.859
One is, you know, I was wondering if it's like a,
454
00:26:26.309 --> 00:26:28.069
it's like a cultural thing. Cause the way the language
455
00:26:28.089 --> 00:26:31.150
I would describe is it's not just my family. I'm
456
00:26:31.170 --> 00:26:36.130
talking about like 1000 generations of my family, you know,
457
00:26:36.150 --> 00:26:37.259
are pretty bummed out.
458
00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:41.630
It's a very Mulan situation. The ancestors are, are like.
459
00:26:41.670 --> 00:26:44.730
Whoa, we sent this guy to America and now this
460
00:26:44.769 --> 00:26:46.509
guy decided to go on this podcast.
461
00:26:47.029 --> 00:26:48.049
What's the deal with that?
462
00:26:48.890 --> 00:26:50.950
I don't know if there's anything where, I don't want
463
00:26:50.970 --> 00:26:54.839
to say like my regret is more enhanced than other people.
464
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:56.740
I'm sure other people have a tremendous amount of regret,
465
00:26:56.779 --> 00:27:00.519
but it's like, I feel sometimes that there's a cultural
466
00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.460
thing as well. Yeah.
467
00:27:03.500 --> 00:27:06.599
I mean, so, so I've actually done some work on
468
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:11.349
cross-cultural stuff and I Not specifically with Vietnamese culture. So
469
00:27:11.369 --> 00:27:13.710
I want to be clear, like I don't have like
470
00:27:14.009 --> 00:27:19.910
specific expertise there. So I have a paper looking at
471
00:27:20.230 --> 00:27:25.380
Arab students compared to white Midwestern students. And they're right,
472
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.460
like totally different understanding of fate. It's really this idea
473
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:35.119
of like your fate is written. So they actually basically
474
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:37.720
don't report some of the patterns of counterfactuals that I
475
00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:38.680
was talking about earlier.
476
00:27:39.019 --> 00:27:39.180
Yeah.
477
00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:42.920
So if you ask, hey, there's this car accident. How
478
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.539
much is he thinking? Oh, I should have taken another route.
479
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:49.240
And people say, well, no, because if God wrote for
480
00:27:49.299 --> 00:27:52.480
him to have this accident, it doesn't matter what road
481
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:54.960
he was on. Like the accident was written. That was
482
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.619
his fate. Right. If it's his fate, you can't escape that.
483
00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:00.279
Yes.
484
00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:05.829
He probably feels bad that this accident happened, but that
485
00:28:05.869 --> 00:28:09.930
doesn't actually mean... that he could have done anything different.
486
00:28:10.769 --> 00:28:12.549
So it's really interesting to me that for you, it's
487
00:28:12.569 --> 00:28:14.609
sort of this, like I defied my fate.
488
00:28:16.349 --> 00:28:18.819
That's really sort of the thing is that I always
489
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.759
joke around again with my wife because, you know, me
490
00:28:21.859 --> 00:28:23.259
and my wife, we live in Brooklyn.
491
00:28:23.500 --> 00:28:25.559
We have these kind of artistic jobs.
492
00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:28.940
And I always joke with her that I'm supposed to
493
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:33.269
be living in San Jose, driving a Tesla, married to
494
00:28:33.289 --> 00:28:36.609
a Vietnamese woman. We eat pho every single day. Maybe
495
00:28:36.650 --> 00:28:38.930
if I'm not a doctor, maybe I sell medical equipment.
496
00:28:39.269 --> 00:28:42.430
And I see this life over and over again. I'm
497
00:28:42.470 --> 00:28:45.410
not in it, but my cousins are in it. And
498
00:28:45.470 --> 00:28:48.910
every time I check in with them, I can't help
499
00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:50.890
but compare my life to their life. You know, it's like,
500
00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:54.710
who has a better life? And it gets complicated, but
501
00:28:54.730 --> 00:28:59.160
it is there, right? And I'm confronted with the other one,
502
00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:03.039
the other me, right? And I often say, I'm not
503
00:29:03.059 --> 00:29:05.829
supposed to be here How many Vietnamese comedians can you
504
00:29:05.849 --> 00:29:06.289
even name?
505
00:29:06.710 --> 00:29:08.690
You know, like there's only like three of us.
506
00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:13.269
And so I'm constantly grappling with this fact that I
507
00:29:13.410 --> 00:29:14.210
chose something different.
508
00:29:14.230 --> 00:29:16.089
My life turned out radically different.
509
00:29:17.730 --> 00:29:21.589
Yeah. So that there's definitely like pieces of the regret
510
00:29:21.609 --> 00:29:25.250
literature that speak to that. I was like writing down
511
00:29:25.269 --> 00:29:27.109
all sorts of things as you were talking.
512
00:29:27.930 --> 00:29:29.410
It's a little embarrassing for me to say.
513
00:29:29.470 --> 00:29:30.200
No, not at all.
514
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:34.269
So there's sort of two pieces of a counterfactual, right?
515
00:29:34.289 --> 00:29:36.670
There's the like, if I had done this, then this
516
00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:39.089
other thing would have been different. And so you can
517
00:29:39.130 --> 00:29:43.079
imagine all sorts of counterfactuals that you can have where,
518
00:29:43.099 --> 00:29:47.400
I don't know, like if aliens had invaded today, then
519
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:50.339
my son could have ice cream for dinner. Um, and
520
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:53.220
it's like, well, okay. The first is so improbable that
521
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:59.119
that doesn't even make sense as a thing. But you
522
00:29:59.140 --> 00:30:02.440
have this really clear, like, if I had made another decision, right? Like,
523
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:05.980
it's really easy to imagine walking into the physics class
524
00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:07.279
instead of the registrar's office.
525
00:30:07.420 --> 00:30:07.660
Right.
526
00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:10.390
Like, Frost writes this whole poem about the road I
527
00:30:10.420 --> 00:30:12.210
didn't travel. And I kind of don't know what was
528
00:30:12.250 --> 00:30:15.789
down there. But, like, your cousins are walking that road.
529
00:30:16.109 --> 00:30:16.349
Yes.
530
00:30:16.529 --> 00:30:19.130
You can really clearly see, like, here's what would have
531
00:30:19.170 --> 00:30:23.130
been different if you, too, had stayed on that path.
532
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:28.470
But counterfactuals aren't the only comparisons out there. Social comparison
533
00:30:28.650 --> 00:30:31.910
also is a thing and has its own set of
534
00:30:31.970 --> 00:30:35.269
emotions that go with it. Like envy and pride are
535
00:30:35.369 --> 00:30:38.589
kind of the like cousins of regret and relief. And
536
00:30:38.609 --> 00:30:43.150
it's interesting to me that it feels like regret to
537
00:30:43.190 --> 00:30:45.990
you and not like, oh, I feel envious of this
538
00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:48.420
person who's living the life that I was supposed to have.
539
00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:51.700
It is about your decision and not about like, oh,
540
00:30:51.740 --> 00:30:52.819
I want their life.
541
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:59.569
Yes. That's a question. Do you want their life? No.
542
00:30:59.589 --> 00:31:03.289
That was an immediate answer, Mike.
543
00:31:03.650 --> 00:31:06.549
Yeah, I mean, there are some things I would enjoy.
544
00:31:06.849 --> 00:31:09.670
For sure, I think I would like stability for my family,
545
00:31:09.750 --> 00:31:14.160
for my kids. But I don't want to drive a Tesla.
546
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:16.180
I would love to eat pho every single week.
547
00:31:16.220 --> 00:31:16.779
That would be great.
548
00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:20.339
But as far as like actually being implanted into their life,
549
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:22.460
it doesn't sound appealing either.
550
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.619
You know what I'm saying? That's really interesting. I never
551
00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:33.769
thought about it like, Envy versus regret. Huh.
552
00:31:35.750 --> 00:31:38.190
After the break, we get to the root of Mike's
553
00:31:38.210 --> 00:31:42.339
regret and how regret can be a hopeful, even useful emotion.
554
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:04.400
Welcome back to Praxi. So picking up where we left off,
555
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:07.650
Amy now wants to go back to the coin toss.
556
00:32:08.430 --> 00:32:12.390
The fateful day when Mike flipped the coin and dropped
557
00:32:12.410 --> 00:32:14.890
the class, even though the coin told him to stay
558
00:32:14.930 --> 00:32:15.549
in pre-med.
559
00:32:17.009 --> 00:32:20.339
I wrote down that when you talked about, like, it
560
00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:23.380
felt amazing, it felt awesome, and I never looked back.
561
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:25.599
And it was like....
562
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:26.839
But.
563
00:32:27.289 --> 00:32:31.750
But you are.
564
00:32:31.789 --> 00:32:32.759
Yeah, yeah.
565
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:35.539
No, that's a really good point. Yeah, you got me there, guys.
566
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:37.480
Ha ha, problem solved.
567
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:42.180
No, but you are on to something because there was
568
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:43.319
a period of time.
569
00:32:43.059 --> 00:32:46.359
Where I didn't feel bad about it.
570
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:50.799
I was still in college. I knew people who were
571
00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:54.380
going to med school. And actually, the woman who is
572
00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:57.200
now my wife, she was also in the track.
573
00:32:57.220 --> 00:32:58.359
She went really far.
574
00:32:58.460 --> 00:33:03.200
She took the MCAT, but she didn't go to medical school.
575
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:05.480
And I remember when she was studying, I got to
576
00:33:05.500 --> 00:33:08.220
take the MCAT tomorrow. And I was like, that sounds terrible.
577
00:33:09.380 --> 00:33:12.609
I don't know how to do it. So for a
578
00:33:12.700 --> 00:33:16.869
little while, it didn't bother me that much, but it
579
00:33:16.910 --> 00:33:21.210
wasn't very long lasting. I remember after I graduated, I
580
00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:26.160
moved back to Orange County. in California where my parents
581
00:33:26.220 --> 00:33:28.240
lived and I was living with them and I had
582
00:33:28.269 --> 00:33:32.329
a very hard time finding a job. I couldn't even
583
00:33:32.390 --> 00:33:34.890
really articulate what kind of job I was looking for.
584
00:33:35.329 --> 00:33:38.890
My parents were throwing all sorts of hilarious job titles
585
00:33:38.970 --> 00:33:41.990
at me. Become a human resources guy. They were literally
586
00:33:42.009 --> 00:33:45.710
just naming jobs that they had seen on TV. They
587
00:33:45.750 --> 00:33:47.650
all sounded terrible to me. I was like, these jobs
588
00:33:47.670 --> 00:33:51.289
sound so boring. And so I was unemployed.
589
00:33:51.329 --> 00:33:53.819
I was in my 20s. I felt like a big loser.
590
00:33:54.500 --> 00:33:56.680
And I remember that's when I was like, oh, maybe
591
00:33:56.740 --> 00:33:59.119
I could go back to med school. And that's really
592
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:01.509
where I was like, now I'm like kind of in
593
00:34:01.549 --> 00:34:01.960
this loop.
594
00:34:04.369 --> 00:34:04.930
Interesting.
595
00:34:04.970 --> 00:34:05.130
Yeah.
596
00:34:05.170 --> 00:34:07.829
And so it sounds like it was only when there
597
00:34:07.869 --> 00:34:11.010
was other stuff in your life that was kind of
598
00:34:11.110 --> 00:34:15.829
dissatisfying that then it was like, oh, maybe the thing
599
00:34:15.889 --> 00:34:19.889
that would have made all this better is if I'd
600
00:34:19.929 --> 00:34:20.849
gone to med school.
601
00:34:21.070 --> 00:34:21.329
Yes.
602
00:34:22.510 --> 00:34:28.260
I think sometimes we have regrets where it sort of
603
00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:33.119
comes from the negative emotion first, like something feels bad.
604
00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:35.559
And then we just sort of want to look around
605
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:39.559
and be like, well, what is it that could have
606
00:34:39.579 --> 00:34:43.829
changed this? When I talk to people about regret, it's like, oh,
607
00:34:43.869 --> 00:34:46.190
you're a regret researcher. Like, do you have regrets? I'm like,
608
00:34:46.250 --> 00:34:47.929
I don't, I don't have like a ton and I
609
00:34:47.969 --> 00:34:49.989
don't have a ton that I really want to talk about,
610
00:34:50.530 --> 00:34:54.730
but like, I will sort of broadly say I've had
611
00:34:54.769 --> 00:34:59.309
a traumatic loss. And if you know people who have
612
00:34:59.510 --> 00:35:01.969
gone through that, whether it's losing someone to suicide or
613
00:35:02.289 --> 00:35:07.530
violence or addiction or whatever, that oftentimes, and in the data, right,
614
00:35:07.659 --> 00:35:11.219
you see people saying, like, oh, if I had just
615
00:35:11.300 --> 00:35:12.800
done something different.
616
00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:13.460
Yes.
617
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.860
If I'd had a better intervention than my friend wouldn't
618
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:17.519
have OD'd.
619
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:17.920
Right.
620
00:35:18.500 --> 00:35:22.110
Or... If I had agreed to go to the party,
621
00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:25.090
then I could have been the DD and they wouldn't
622
00:35:25.269 --> 00:35:29.530
have driven drunk and been in the accident. Certainly in
623
00:35:29.550 --> 00:35:32.190
your case, there really was this path and there really
624
00:35:32.230 --> 00:35:35.469
was this decision. But it's also the case that one
625
00:35:36.269 --> 00:35:39.409
of the great secrets of adulthood is that actually being
626
00:35:39.449 --> 00:35:41.090
right out of college kind of sucks.
627
00:35:41.730 --> 00:35:43.289
Like you had this.
628
00:35:43.269 --> 00:35:46.170
Like idyllic experience of like all of your needs were
629
00:35:46.190 --> 00:35:48.179
catered to as if you were a child.
630
00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:49.619
All your friends. Yeah.
631
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:52.980
All your friends were right there. And yet also like
632
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:55.239
you had all this independence of adulthood. It's like really
633
00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:58.340
kind of the sweet spot, at least at Amherst Lake.
634
00:35:58.380 --> 00:36:00.719
Someone else cooked for me like every day of my
635
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:01.590
college career.
636
00:36:01.610 --> 00:36:01.690
Yeah.
637
00:36:02.489 --> 00:36:04.550
And then suddenly you get out and it's like, oh God,
638
00:36:04.570 --> 00:36:06.150
I have to go to the grocery store.
639
00:36:06.170 --> 00:36:06.250
Yeah.
640
00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:10.800
I have more than three hours of obligation a day.
641
00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:11.280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
642
00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.349
This is crazy. How does anyone live like this?
643
00:36:13.530 --> 00:36:13.789
Yeah.
644
00:36:14.210 --> 00:36:17.150
And so I do wonder a little bit about how
645
00:36:17.190 --> 00:36:20.269
much of it is being 23 sucks.
646
00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:20.929
Yes.
647
00:36:21.610 --> 00:36:26.050
And latching on to here's the thing that I know
648
00:36:26.150 --> 00:36:27.869
could have been different and it would have put me
649
00:36:27.909 --> 00:36:31.969
in this totally different place. And if you didn't have that,
650
00:36:32.130 --> 00:36:35.840
is there some other... counterfactual you would have generated in
651
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:38.980
that moment. But for you, there was just this clear, like,
652
00:36:39.059 --> 00:36:41.539
oh yeah, maybe it was med school. Like some people
653
00:36:41.579 --> 00:36:43.659
have the romantic one that got away from college and
654
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:46.739
you have like the career that got away.
655
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:48.059
The career that got away.
656
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:52.050
It is interesting because it almost feels almost sometimes like a,
657
00:36:52.070 --> 00:36:54.829
almost like a default excuse.
658
00:36:55.409 --> 00:36:55.750
I don't know.
659
00:36:55.809 --> 00:36:59.030
Like I was very interested in, you know, econ. Maybe
660
00:36:59.070 --> 00:37:01.070
I could have become a finance guy, but I never
661
00:37:01.130 --> 00:37:02.690
think I'm like, oh, I should have become a finance
662
00:37:02.710 --> 00:37:06.320
guy because I'm like, That seems so odd. I guess
663
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:08.659
I could have become an NFL football player. There's all
664
00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:11.380
sorts of weird things you could say, but it defaults
665
00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:13.260
always to this one thing.
666
00:37:15.820 --> 00:37:19.980
Well, Mike, when the regret pops up, does it happen
667
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:23.760
around times when like stuff is hard and bad or
668
00:37:23.860 --> 00:37:26.719
is it just all the time kind of like randomly?
669
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:30.150
I mean, I would definitely say I think it is
670
00:37:30.190 --> 00:37:36.199
definitely triggered by things where I need something. Like, gosh,
671
00:37:36.579 --> 00:37:38.960
my wife and I are always like, we're going to
672
00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:42.719
buy a house. And it's impossible to because I'm not
673
00:37:42.940 --> 00:37:45.219
a billionaire. So it would be nice if I had
674
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:47.679
a little bit more money, you know, or during this
675
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:49.449
layoff that just happened.
676
00:37:49.610 --> 00:37:49.869
Yeah.
677
00:37:50.570 --> 00:37:52.110
And this is another thing I was going to ask
678
00:37:52.130 --> 00:37:55.610
you about is like this career that I have, whether
679
00:37:55.650 --> 00:37:58.530
it's in advertising or even worse in comedy, it is
680
00:37:58.809 --> 00:38:03.920
only setbacks. Comedy is almost entirely setback after setback. Until
681
00:38:04.019 --> 00:38:05.559
you were either famous or you were dead.
682
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:09.210
And that is it. And so you're constantly confronted with,
683
00:38:09.269 --> 00:38:12.150
did you make the right decision? Why did you spend
684
00:38:12.190 --> 00:38:13.489
so much time doing this thing?
685
00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:16.710
You know, I've been doing comedy for maybe, gosh, I
686
00:38:16.750 --> 00:38:18.969
don't know, like 10 or 11 years at this point.
687
00:38:19.610 --> 00:38:21.989
And I've sunk an immense amount of time into it.
688
00:38:22.530 --> 00:38:26.900
Going to open mics or writing, which generate absolutely zero income.
689
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:28.920
Just doing this.
690
00:38:28.820 --> 00:38:31.679
Thing because I feel sometimes I have no other choice
691
00:38:31.699 --> 00:38:33.739
to do it. because I feel I am a creative
692
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:36.420
person and I have to do it and I'm an idiot.
693
00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:39.639
But every single time I'm there, I'm like, I could
694
00:38:39.739 --> 00:38:40.440
be somewhere else.
695
00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:48.949
I'm wondering, is this regret around becoming a doctor, is
696
00:38:49.010 --> 00:38:52.909
it about success and how you're feeling about yourself rather
697
00:38:52.949 --> 00:38:56.130
than like this particular regret around becoming a doctor?
698
00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:03.940
I think it is definitely like, am I... living up
699
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:07.619
to my full potential for lack of a better word
700
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:11.039
am I doing you know the most I can do
701
00:39:11.980 --> 00:39:13.880
and I was just saying like I have to be
702
00:39:13.900 --> 00:39:17.000
a creative person and it's led me to this point
703
00:39:17.659 --> 00:39:20.889
and sometimes I feel guilty about that you know I
704
00:39:21.909 --> 00:39:24.590
have a lot of anxiety around like well I've chosen
705
00:39:24.630 --> 00:39:27.269
this life and I hope my children don't have to
706
00:39:27.329 --> 00:39:30.239
pay for it later on because like they you didn't
707
00:39:30.260 --> 00:39:32.119
get into a great school or something like that well
708
00:39:32.139 --> 00:39:35.900
that gets into a whole other thing but I'm like
709
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:37.559
tearing up a little bit sorry so like it's just
710
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.440
it's uh it's a lot it's like kind of weird
711
00:39:41.420 --> 00:39:47.119
yeah I'm just kind of getting emotional I guess it's
712
00:39:47.139 --> 00:39:50.579
just like for me and my wife, we're like creative people.
713
00:39:50.780 --> 00:39:52.719
And like, if I pay the price for it, it's
714
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:55.480
my life, but I don't want anyone else to pay
715
00:39:55.539 --> 00:39:58.699
for my own weakness or hedonism or whatever you want
716
00:39:58.719 --> 00:39:59.110
to call it.
717
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:02.380
You know what I'm saying? Like my children didn't ask
718
00:40:02.420 --> 00:40:06.480
for that. That's a whole other thing. Yeah.
719
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:10.619
Yeah.
720
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:12.739
I'm a parent too. And so I totally get like,
721
00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:15.469
I feel like So much of like parenthood is about
722
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:17.719
you brought this person into the world. You have this
723
00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:21.000
obligation to them. Am I meeting that kind of like
724
00:40:21.139 --> 00:40:24.960
role that I'm supposed to be fulfilling? But I think
725
00:40:25.059 --> 00:40:27.599
it's easy to think about here's the things that would
726
00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:30.059
be better if I was a doctor. Yeah. Like I
727
00:40:30.099 --> 00:40:34.019
might have more career stability, more financial stability, but also
728
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:37.679
there's stuff you'd be giving up. And you'd be regretting
729
00:40:37.699 --> 00:40:40.199
that like, oh, like my kid is sick and I
730
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:42.130
had to have the nanny pick them up. I'm in
731
00:40:42.150 --> 00:40:44.230
clinic right now and I can't just drop it and
732
00:40:44.250 --> 00:40:46.929
go home and like take care of my kid and like, oh,
733
00:40:46.989 --> 00:40:48.329
I can't go to that game.
734
00:40:48.409 --> 00:40:48.670
Yeah.
735
00:40:48.789 --> 00:40:50.250
Oh, now I'm letting my kid down in all these
736
00:40:50.349 --> 00:40:51.030
other ways.
737
00:40:51.329 --> 00:40:52.170
That's absolutely right.
738
00:40:54.070 --> 00:40:57.090
I feel like maybe one of the things that I
739
00:40:57.130 --> 00:41:01.309
do want to say is that in general, I come
740
00:41:01.329 --> 00:41:04.190
from like a academic tradition of thinking of regret as
741
00:41:04.230 --> 00:41:05.989
like a really useful emotion to us.
742
00:41:06.409 --> 00:41:06.550
Oh.
743
00:41:07.050 --> 00:41:10.559
Like regret is telling us about how we should do
744
00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:11.460
things differently.
745
00:41:13.469 --> 00:41:16.710
Mike, why did your mouth open when Amy said regret
746
00:41:16.769 --> 00:41:17.750
is a useful emotion?
747
00:41:19.210 --> 00:41:22.849
Yeah, I mean, I've always thought of this as just
748
00:41:22.889 --> 00:41:24.590
like something I'm just going to have to deal with
749
00:41:24.650 --> 00:41:25.369
for the rest of my life.
750
00:41:26.329 --> 00:41:30.010
For me, I think it can be really helpful to
751
00:41:30.050 --> 00:41:34.960
kind of think about, is this regret helping me? Is
752
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:37.300
there something here that I could learn? Is there something
753
00:41:37.340 --> 00:41:41.340
I could do differently? And if not, is it really
754
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:46.150
a regret? Or do I just sort of feel... sad. Again,
755
00:41:46.190 --> 00:41:48.750
with sort of examples of things like traumatic loss, I
756
00:41:48.769 --> 00:41:52.230
don't really think, oh, like here's the one action I
757
00:41:52.269 --> 00:41:55.610
could have taken and everything would have been okay. I'm
758
00:41:55.650 --> 00:41:58.349
just sad. I'm sad this thing happened. And I wish
759
00:41:58.409 --> 00:42:00.550
there was something that could have made it different.
760
00:42:00.989 --> 00:42:01.429
Wow.
761
00:42:02.059 --> 00:42:04.460
Yeah. Like it really sucks to live in a high
762
00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:07.960
cost of living area where you can't buy a house. Yeah.
763
00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:13.619
It really sucks to live under capitalism with economic instability.
764
00:42:14.380 --> 00:42:18.260
But even if you had gone to med school, what
765
00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:22.050
are the things that would be different? Maybe it's stable,
766
00:42:22.219 --> 00:42:24.360
but there are these other costs that come with it.
767
00:42:24.389 --> 00:42:28.489
I don't know, maybe this is because I'm just a
768
00:42:28.750 --> 00:42:32.179
street man with toxic masculinity, but The idea that I'm
769
00:42:32.219 --> 00:42:34.619
just sad is so profound.
770
00:42:35.250 --> 00:42:36.090
Oh, I'm just sad.
771
00:42:36.150 --> 00:42:38.469
You know, next time I feel this coming on, maybe
772
00:42:38.489 --> 00:42:40.869
I'm just bummed out. And there is a lot of
773
00:42:41.090 --> 00:42:44.230
stuff to be bummed out about globally.
774
00:42:43.750 --> 00:42:46.809
And in a micro sense. It sounds really silly, but
775
00:42:47.309 --> 00:42:49.960
I've never thought of it like just being sad.
776
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:51.139
Wow.
777
00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:56.219
I mean, I've done therapy before where you take an
778
00:42:56.260 --> 00:42:59.579
emotion and And you kind of look at it and say, well,
779
00:42:59.619 --> 00:43:02.199
this anxiety is because maybe I need to pay attention
780
00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:05.500
to something in my life. But there is also emotions,
781
00:43:05.539 --> 00:43:08.179
I think, where there is nothing to do. This is
782
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:11.000
just how it is. To kind of understand that there
783
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:14.340
is no action is very freeing because you can.
784
00:43:14.260 --> 00:43:14.780
Just be sad.
785
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:16.599
But I'm bummed out. I'm going to have a candy
786
00:43:16.619 --> 00:43:17.909
bar now and just deal with it.
787
00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:25.139
Yeah. Well, so, Amy, you said that regret can be
788
00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:29.150
a useful emotion sometimes. Regret can tell us what is
789
00:43:29.210 --> 00:43:32.590
important to us. And what I'm hearing from this conversation
790
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:37.280
again and again, Mike, is like family is really important
791
00:43:37.300 --> 00:43:37.639
to you.
792
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:38.099
Right.
793
00:43:38.380 --> 00:43:38.619
Yes.
794
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:43.519
Family, your relationship with your parents, your relationship with your community,
795
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:44.480
your kids.
796
00:43:44.500 --> 00:43:44.820
Yeah.
797
00:43:45.099 --> 00:43:49.380
Like family, family, family. And if you were going to
798
00:43:49.420 --> 00:43:52.159
think about this regret you have, take away all the
799
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:56.059
bad parts, all the anxieties, all the bad feelings. what
800
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:57.400
do you think it's pointing at?
801
00:43:59.659 --> 00:44:02.940
Yeah, I mean, gosh, you think about the inverse of regret,
802
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:05.059
which is like all the things which are awesome, you know,
803
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:07.679
and I have a lot of awesome things. My amazing knitwear,
804
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:08.300
for example.
805
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:12.420
You have to give that up and live in scrubs?
806
00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:13.139
Can you imagine?
807
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:15.260
I hate scrubs so much. It's the worst thing in
808
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:21.489
the world. Anyways, I feel the most fulfilled. The specific
809
00:44:21.530 --> 00:44:24.599
moment is when I am in the kitchen and my
810
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:26.699
wife is feeding both my kids or one of my
811
00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:30.769
kids and I'm like running food to them. I'm like
812
00:44:30.909 --> 00:44:33.250
cooking food. You know, my wife is like, okay, we
813
00:44:33.269 --> 00:44:34.610
need boiled eggs. Cause that's the only thing he's going
814
00:44:34.630 --> 00:44:34.829
to eat.
815
00:44:34.869 --> 00:44:37.050
I'm like on it. Boiled egg stack. You know, the
816
00:44:37.070 --> 00:44:38.809
front of house wants eggs. I got to make eggs.
817
00:44:41.789 --> 00:44:43.909
But I feel awesome because I feel like I am,
818
00:44:44.489 --> 00:44:46.659
you know, providing for my family.
819
00:44:46.739 --> 00:44:49.800
Literally, you know, I'm the perfect like thing in the
820
00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:54.190
machine that is making this happen. It's very actionable and doable.
821
00:44:56.150 --> 00:44:59.429
But with my children, I'm trying to think about values
822
00:44:59.489 --> 00:45:02.199
I want to give them. And I think that it
823
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:05.260
is worthwhile to try hard. It's not a good thing,
824
00:45:05.980 --> 00:45:09.500
I think, to just do the minimum. And so I
825
00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:14.619
think I do regret maybe not giving my all. Maybe
826
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:16.199
I didn't want to be a doctor, but I do
827
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:18.559
think there was probably a little bit of me I
828
00:45:18.579 --> 00:45:20.719
left on the table as far as I didn't work
829
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:23.090
as hard as I could have. I think I corrected
830
00:45:23.130 --> 00:45:26.630
that later on in life, but I want to be
831
00:45:26.710 --> 00:45:29.230
able to say that I gave it my all.
832
00:45:32.170 --> 00:45:36.110
Okay. We are near the end. Thank you both so much.
833
00:45:36.489 --> 00:45:40.420
This was such a roller coaster. Okay. Final question. Mike,
834
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:42.780
I asked you to vocalize the sound of your niche
835
00:45:42.820 --> 00:45:45.079
emotional conundrum way back when.
836
00:45:45.099 --> 00:45:45.860
Oh, yeah.
837
00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:49.000
Many, many months ago. And you told me it was
838
00:45:49.099 --> 00:45:50.860
elevator music, like waiting music.
839
00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:52.559
Ah, yes, I did.
840
00:45:54.260 --> 00:45:54.539
Yes.
841
00:45:55.059 --> 00:45:57.639
I'm curious, what is the sound of the niche emotional
842
00:45:57.659 --> 00:46:00.500
conundrum now? Has it changed at all?
843
00:46:01.969 --> 00:46:04.710
No, this is different because now I forgot that I
844
00:46:04.750 --> 00:46:07.010
had said Muzak and I totally remember why I said
845
00:46:07.070 --> 00:46:08.889
Muzak because it was sort of like, I feel like
846
00:46:08.909 --> 00:46:10.530
my life is like on hold or waiting.
847
00:46:10.590 --> 00:46:11.369
I'm waiting for something.
848
00:46:12.090 --> 00:46:15.739
Now it just feels like, oh, now I got to
849
00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:19.539
do work on myself. Oh, that's so much, that's so
850
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:20.039
much harder.
851
00:46:20.059 --> 00:46:20.139
Yeah.
852
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.079
I think med school is probably easier than working on myself.
853
00:46:25.099 --> 00:46:25.659
I don't want to do that.
854
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:31.019
So it's a groan. Oh, yes.
855
00:46:44.289 --> 00:46:44.909
Thank you, Dr.
856
00:46:44.969 --> 00:46:45.210
Amy.
857
00:46:45.570 --> 00:46:46.630
This is awesome.
858
00:46:47.090 --> 00:46:48.809
It's been so great getting to meet you and getting
859
00:46:48.829 --> 00:46:49.329
to talk to you.
860
00:46:58.550 --> 00:47:01.530
Thank you to Mike Nguyen for being our special guest today.
861
00:47:02.050 --> 00:47:04.550
You can listen to Mike every week on his podcast,
862
00:47:04.769 --> 00:47:07.349
Asian Not Asian. And you can check out his American
863
00:47:07.389 --> 00:47:12.929
Prosperity Corps outfits on Instagram at NicePantsBro. And thank you
864
00:47:12.969 --> 00:47:16.369
to Amy Somerville for being our proxy today. As Amy
865
00:47:16.389 --> 00:47:19.050
pointed out to me, much of the social science research
866
00:47:19.170 --> 00:47:23.039
that informs today's episode is now the target of massive
867
00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:27.469
funding cuts across several government agencies. But she said there
868
00:47:27.570 --> 00:47:29.570
is something you can do about it. You can let
869
00:47:29.590 --> 00:47:32.250
your elected officials know about the impact this research has
870
00:47:32.309 --> 00:47:34.849
had on you. You can find out more by going
871
00:47:34.869 --> 00:47:40.840
to the website for the Consortium of Social Science Associations, cossa.org.
872
00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:44.320
That's the show we have for you this week. We'll
873
00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:46.820
be back with a new episode on Tuesday, May 20th.
874
00:47:47.420 --> 00:47:50.320
New episodes every other Tuesday for the rest of the year.
875
00:47:51.250 --> 00:47:56.440
Which Chrissy... a listener from Philadelphia, is thrilled about because
876
00:47:56.840 --> 00:48:01.400
she loves gossiping about proxy episodes with friends. Hi. Hey, Chrissy.
877
00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:03.179
What do you have over there?
878
00:48:03.889 --> 00:48:07.329
This is an apple. My friend Andrew got it for
879
00:48:07.369 --> 00:48:09.130
me at the Wegmans.
880
00:48:09.630 --> 00:48:11.050
So you like eating apples, huh?
881
00:48:11.610 --> 00:48:12.510
Yeah, I love apples.
882
00:48:12.949 --> 00:48:14.969
And what about proxy? You like proxy?
883
00:48:14.989 --> 00:48:18.760
I love proxy. I love feelings and talking about them.
884
00:48:19.489 --> 00:48:20.960
Okay, so if you had to do some proxy math,
885
00:48:21.550 --> 00:48:24.590
How many Golden Delicious apples is a proxy episode worth
886
00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:24.880
to you?
887
00:48:28.059 --> 00:48:28.579
Nine.
888
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:37.000
Nine Golden Delicious apples? If we're talking organic, that's like $ 13. 50
889
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:40.369
she's willing to pay per episode. But because she's a
890
00:48:40.389 --> 00:48:44.630
Patreon member, for just $ 5 a month, Chrissy's getting a steal.
891
00:48:45.510 --> 00:48:49.039
Proxy is an independent podcast and we rely on listener support.
892
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:52.280
We need to get to at least 3,000 subscribers this
893
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.079
year to keep making the show. And we are at
894
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:59.590
about 300 right now. Thank you to everyone who's already
895
00:48:59.650 --> 00:49:03.110
signed up. For just $ 5 a month, you'll get ad-free
896
00:49:03.130 --> 00:49:07.889
episodes and exclusive bonus interviews. So be thrifty like Chrissy.
897
00:49:08.429 --> 00:49:13.539
Sign up at patreon.com slash proxy podcast. That's patreon.com slash
898
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:17.269
proxy podcast. As always, you can follow us on Instagram
899
00:49:17.469 --> 00:49:10.449
at Proxy Podcast. And I'm at Yoey Shaw. We'll have
900
00:49:10.590 --> 00:49:12.550
those links in the show notes. This episode was edited
901
00:49:12.570 --> 00:49:15.449
by John DeLore and Tim Howard, produced by me and
902
00:49:15.570 --> 00:49:40.530
mixed by Kyle Cooley. Proxy is also produced by Kim Naderven-Petersa,
903
00:49:40.849 --> 00:49:44.349
with help from Anakaran Santana and Nick LeBlanc. Our newsletter
904
00:49:44.429 --> 00:49:48.639
editor is Juliana Feliciano-Reyes. Music in this episode by Tim Howard,
905
00:49:48.860 --> 00:49:53.199
and theme music by Breakmaster Cylinder. Special thanks to Audrey Martavich,
906
00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:57.380
Yori Lozordo, Laura Starczewski, and Matilde Urfelino. Proxy is a
907
00:49:57.460 --> 00:50:01.960
proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator-owned,
908
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:07.929
listener-supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at radiotopia.fm. And if
909
00:50:08.219 --> 00:50:12.110
you have a niche emotional conundrum you'd like investigated by proxy,
910
00:50:12.650 --> 00:50:27.460
get in touch at proxythepod at gmail.com. We're taking cases. Kyle,
911
00:50:27.579 --> 00:50:30.460
how often do you regret marrying a podcast host?
912
00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:36.300
I think it's a good counterbalance to someone marrying a
913
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:42.829
music producer. Anytime I have complaints, I realize they're the
914
00:50:42.909 --> 00:50:46.750
things that ex-girlfriends would complain about me.
915
00:50:49.190 --> 00:50:52.269
Oh, like all your complaints about me? That's what your
916
00:50:52.369 --> 00:50:56.949
exes would say about you? Yeah. So it's karma in
917
00:50:56.989 --> 00:50:58.369
a way. It's poetic justice.
918
00:50:59.610 --> 00:51:01.969
Yeah, except I didn't make them mix my podcast.